September 23, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode of the Believe Big podcast, Ivelisse welcomes Bill and Kristi Gaultiere to explore the life-giving role of empathy in emotional and spiritual well-being.
Drawing from their new book, Deeply Loved, Bill, a psychologist and pastor, and Kristi, a psychotherapist and spiritual director, share how empathy—distinct from sympathy—can become a powerful source of healing, especially for those facing health crises like cancer. They introduce the Four A’s of empathy: asking, attuning, acknowledging, and affirming, while also highlighting the importance of practicing self-empathy.
Rooted in both biblical wisdom and psychological insight, the conversation offers practical encouragement for those feeling emotionally weary or spiritually distant, showing how empathy can deepen love, strengthen resilience, and serve as true “oxygen for the soul.”
Learn more about Bill and Kristi Gaultiere and Soul Shepherding:
https://www.soulshepherding.org/
Suggested Resources:
- BOOK - Your Best Life in Jesus' Easy Yoke
- BOOK: Journey of the Soul
- PODCAST: Believe Big (Season 2) Caring for Our Souls with Kristi Gaultiere
- PODCAST: Believe Big (Season 2) Emotional and Spiritual Growth with Kristi Gaultiere
- PODCAST: Soul Talks with Bill and Kristi Gaultiere
- Spotify Playlist: The Wall, Journey of the Soul
- Hearing God by Dallas Willard
- Healthy Feelings, Thriving Faith by Bill and Kristi Gaultiere
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ivelisse Page (00:06):
Hi, I am Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to
the Believe Big podcast, theshow where we take deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:34):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page andit's always a pleasure to be
able to spend this time withyou.
Okay, friends, are you in for atreat today?
My dear friends Bill and KristiGaultiere are here together to
talk about their new book,Deeply Loved.
(00:55):
A little bit about them first,Bill is a psychologist and an
ordained pastor specializing inministry to pastors.
He was personally mentored formany years by Dallas Willard and
Ray Ortlund, Sr.
His earlier book, Your Best Lifein Jesus' Easy Yoke, tells the
story of his spiritual renewalfrom anxious living and burnout,
(01:18):
and introduces the message andway of Soul Shepherding, an
organization that he co-foundedwith his wife, Kristi.
That was also the first book Iread during my sabbatical three
years ago, and it truly changedmy life.
Bill has also trained over athousand late counselors and
taught courses in Christianpsychology and spirituality at
(01:42):
the graduate school level.
He has been speaking to churchesand conferences since 1987.
Kristi, she has been on our showseveral times and is a
psychotherapist and a spiritualdirector for women in ministry
and pastor's wives.
She co-leads Soul Shepherdingwith Bill and was personally
(02:02):
mentored by Jane Willard and Dr.
Jan Stoop.
They are the co-founders of theamazing organization, Soul
Shepherding, a nonprofitministry to help believers
discover their next steps forgrowing in intimacy with Jesus,
emotional health, and lovingrelationships.
Welcome to the podcast, Bill andKristi.
Bill Gaultiere (02:25):
Thank you Ivelisse.
We, and I just, hello to all theBelieve Big friends.
We're so glad to be inconversation with you today.
Ivelisse Page (02:33):
Well, Kristi knows that we always start our
show with our favorite healthtip, and since this is the first
time that you're on, we wouldlove to hear one from you this
time.
Bill Gaultiere (02:41):
Yeah, well, I could give lots of health tips
because I care a lot about myhealth.
Every day I exercise and, getoutside of nature, things like
that.
But that, what I wanna share isthat maybe an unusual health tip
that actually relates to ourconversation is I've learned the
importance of asking forempathy.
And how much that makes adifference in my energy level
(03:02):
and my health.
And so truly every day I askKristi or a friend and of course
always the Lord for empathy tounderstand what I feel and what
I'm experiencing becauseotherwise I repress my emotions
and then it just gets clogged upinside and I can get de
depressed or anxious and rundown in terms of my energy and
all that internalization ofstress that is just so natural
(03:26):
in, in life today and incertainly in family life and in
ministry and in work is not goodfor our health.
So empathy helps us toexperience that cathartic
relief.
Ivelisse Page (03:37):
Yes.
And for those who are notfamiliar with empathy, I've been
learning a lot about that sincetaking your spiritual direction
training.
Explain to people what isempathy and how is that
different from, than sympathy.
Kristi Gaultiere (03:51):
Well, empathy is really attuning to, and
listening and seeking tounderstand another person's
thoughts, emotions, experiences,and as you listen and you attune
to them and you join and seekingto really understand their
experience, it helps them tofeel God's love and presence
with them.
(04:12):
It's using words to be able tomirror back to them what you're
hearing, to check it out, to seeif you really truly are
understanding, and to give theman opportunity to clarify, to
expand.
As we write about in our newbook, Deeply Loved, Receiving
and Reflecting God's GreatEmpathy, this is something that
we all long for, many of us havenever experienced, and as we
(04:36):
experience it, we recognize howdesperate we are to be really
understood, to be known, to beseen, to be heard, to feel
wanted.
Ivelisse Page (04:45):
Yes.
Yeah.
You're in the book.
You emphasize the healing andthe power of empathy, which
aligns beautifully with what wesee in the cancer journey, and I
believe you write"empathy isoxygen for the soul." Can you
explain why empathy is so vital,especially for those navigating
pain, fear, and uncertainty?
Bill Gaultiere (05:06):
Lemme just think about if you grow up in a smoggy
city and you're just alwaysbreathing un unclean, smoggy
air, and maybe you don't evenreal realize it because you've
adapted to it, but then you, oneday you get out into the country
where, and the air is clean andfresh and pure, and you breathe
in deep, it's like, oh mygoodness, what have I been
missing?
(05:26):
Empathy is like that.
It's ubiquitous.
I mean, I, everybody probablyhas some sense of what the word
means.
But a lot of people haven'treally experienced it, so it's
like that fresh air that fillsour lungs, the lungs of our
soul.
And I mean, this is so importantwhen we're struggling with our
health, certainly the cancerjourney, but also grief.
(05:46):
and, any sort of healthchallenges and sickness.
Because when we're in thiscondition chronic health issues
it's wearing down our energybecause our body needs so much
energy to go through thesurgery, the recovery, let alone
the emotional toll it all takes.
And so empathy is energizingwhen we learn how to receive it.
And that's the hard thing forsome people, because they feel
(06:08):
like, oh, but it is so hard tolet my emotions out.
You know, I don't wanna cry.
You know, I'm embarrassed.
And what people don't realize,it is like, we're living life
like we're with one foot on thegas and one foot on the brake.
And the foot on the gas is okayyou know, I need to share, I
need support.
I need someone to pray for me.
But the foot on the brake is,oh, I'm too emotional.
I'm too needy.
I should be stronger.
(06:28):
I shouldn't be dealing with allthis stuff.
And so with a foot on the gasand the foot on the brake and
our soul we're grinding ourengine and it's exhausting us.
So we have to learn how to notfight against ourself and how to
ask for empathy, receive it,appreciate.
And as we do that's where itreally releases stress and
energy and gives us energy,which enables us to have the
(06:50):
strength that we need, the hopethat we need the sense of I'm
not alone with this as we'redealing with health challenges.
Kristi Gaultiere (06:57):
And Ivelisse, I am familiar with the cancer
journey.
I lost my mom, my brother-in-lawto cancer within the last two
years, and my otherbrother-in-law, my sister's
husband now has pancreaticcancer and has been undergoing
treatment for the last year.
And I have seen the differencethat empathy makes in their
(07:19):
journey and in their life.
And even just recently as mysister expressed, you know, I
feel like.
It's not just my husband thathas cancer.
I feel like we have cancerbecause it has so affected her
life for the last year.
It has become front and centerfor her in the caregiving, in
the doctor's appointments, incaring for him in the middle of
(07:42):
the night in all the decisionsthat come with treatment in all
of the urgent interruptions thatcome of symptoms and side
effects and didn't expect thisand what now?
And even just recently, youknow, learning about a study
that he's on, lost funding,discontinued with just all the
ups and downs of the journey.
And she's going through it allwith him.
(08:04):
And so I was so grateful thatshe was able to recognize the we
in that because she needs asmuch empathy as he does.
There's still some differencesbetween his experience and hers,
and that's part of the empathyattuning to those differences.
You asked what's the differencebetween empathy and sympathy and
one big difference would besympathy isn't bad.
(08:25):
It's a good thing.
And I just am saying to many ofyour listeners, I have sympathy.
I have some understanding oftheir cancer journey from my
experience journey with my momand my two brother-in-laws, my
sisters through this, but Idon't have full empathy for
their unique experience.
And if they were to tell me, oh,I have cancer, or, oh, my
(08:48):
husband has cancer, or, oh, mymom has cancer, and I were to
respond with, oh, I know how youfeel.
That's such a hard journey.
My mom and sister, brothers, youknow, I've been on that.
It's just so hard.
That might be sympathy in termsof that I'm telling them I'm
feeling for them and I have someexperience with it, but I'm
turning the attention on me, andthen they may feel like, oh, now
(09:09):
I need to listen and care forKristi.
She's traumatized from hercancer, you know, her family
members she's journeyed with,and it's like, no, that's really
not what they need.
What they need is for me tolisten to their experience right
now.
Ivelisse Page (09:23):
Yes.
Well thank you for clarifyingthat.
That is, I love examples becauseit really brings us in and
knowing exactly the difference.
So that was a beautiful exampleof that.
You know, scripture is at theheart of Believe Big's mission
and what, what does the Bibleteach us about God's empathy and
how can embracing his compassionequip us to better love
(09:44):
ourselves and others through adiagnosis like cancer.
Bill Gaultiere (09:49):
Yeah, well there, there's so many
scriptures in our book, DeeplyLoved.
We actually reference over ahundred empathy scriptures we
call them.
And, not everybody sees thisbecause the word empathy is not
in the older translations of theBible.
It is in some of the newertranslations.
But the concept of empathy iseverywhere in scripture.
I mean, it's embedded incompassion.
(10:10):
For instance, compassion isoften the first word we think of
to describe Jesus.
And compassion without empathywouldn't be true compassion.
It wouldn't be truly helpfulbecause for compassion to have
the real impact that's healingand life changing for someone,
it needs to be based onunderstanding their true needs.
Sometimes we wanna do somethinggood for people, but it doesn't
(10:32):
actually fit what they reallyneed.
So we're giving'em a handout,but actually they need a hand
up.
They need their dignity,respected.
They need to learn something.
And so, empathy is all over theplace for so many examples.
Psalm 56, David writes, you havecollected all my tears in your
bottle.
I mean, if that's sort oflistening and tender care
(10:53):
towards our tears and our hurts,I mean, that's, if that's not
empathy what is that?
And Jeremiah the Lord says, Ilisten to the weeping of my
people.
It can be heard all across theland.
I hurt with the hurt of mypeople.
Back in Genesis 16 is an examplewhere Hagar the Lord is talking
to Hagar and then she begins touse a new name for God.
(11:17):
And she, she says to him, youare the God who sees me.
That's empathy.
And the scripture says, she saidthis because she thought, I see
that even in this place, herplace of grief and suffering,
God sees me and cares for me.
She's saying God has empathy forme.
(11:37):
In a, the Disciple Disciplesliteral New Testament
translation, we have this greatrendering of Matthew 20:34,
having felt deep feelings ofcompassion, Jesus touched their
eyes and they immediately sawagain and they followed him.
That's in Matthew 20:34.
A verse where many are familiarwith Romans 12:15.
(12:00):
Be happy with those who arehappy.
Be sad with those who are sad.
Empathy is for not just the sadtimes, it's also for the up
times, the celebrations.
It's sharing someone'sexperience with them, supporting
them, caring for them, and evencelebrating with them.
And then our favorite empathyverse, Hebrews 4:15, for we do
(12:20):
not have a high priest who isunable to empathize with our
weaknesses.
We have one who's been temptedin every way just as we are, and
yet he did not sin.
And so our Lord Jesus hasempathy for us.
He experienced everything in thehuman journey, including all
types of suffering.
Ivelisse Page (12:41):
I love those.
Thank you for sharing those.
You know, I think one of thehardest things as staff members
or even caregivers is that wetend to pour out empathy for
others.
And many times, like youmentioned, it's important to
have empathy for ourselves, selfempathy, and that being an
essential part of our lives, notonly for emotional health, but
(13:03):
for spiritual resilience.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout why self empathy is
essential?
Kristi Gaultiere (13:10):
Well, self empathy is essential because if
we are not agreeing with God'sgrace, with his love, with his
empathy for us, it's not gonnaget inside of us we'll spoil it,
and it's the same thing ifsomebody else is giving us
empathy and we're dismissing it.
Or in, in pride, we're notwanting to need it or we're shut
(13:31):
down against what they'reempathizing us with and we don't
wanna go and feel those emotionsat the time, then we're gonna
resist it.
We're gonna resist the gift ofempathy and we're gonna refuse
it.
And so self empathy, we actuallycall agreeing with God's grace.
It's a lot of people are afraidof self empathy because they
think it's self-pity, butself-pity is actually really
(13:52):
just, it's false empathy.
It's just kind of feeling sorryfor yourself.
It's maybe stirring up negativeemotions or playing the victim.
Self empathy is not self pity.
Self empathy is agreeing withGod's empathy for us and other
people's empathy for us, andwith our need for that empathy
and receiving that grace thatwe're not alone, that others are
(14:14):
with us, care for us, prayingfor us, journey with us, and
really can and want tounderstand what we're feeling
and experiencing, to better beable to love us.
The other thing that can be aresistance to self empathy is a
lot of people think self empathyis self-help.
It's not self-help in the senseof it's not, you know, hugging
(14:34):
yourself.
It just doesn't feel the same asa hug or it's not finding
answers within yourself, lookingwithin yourself for answers.
No.
It's agreeing with God's graceand truth for you, mediated by
shepherds after his own heartambassadors of him who are
giving you that empathy.
But without self empathy, wewon't appreciate the empathy
(14:55):
that God and others give us.
Ivelisse Page (14:57):
You know, one of the strengths of Deeply Loved,
as you mentioned, Bill, that ithas over a hundred scriptures on
empathy and it, I just love howit weaves biblical wisdom with
psychology insight.
So why is it important,especially for those dealing
with illness or grief tointegrate both faith and these
emotional tools in the healingprocess?
Bill Gaultiere (15:20):
Yeah.
When we think about spiritualityor theology, it's basically
about our relationship with Godand our life with God.
When we think about psychology,it's understanding people and
our relationships with oneanother, and the two go
together.
They're really two sides of thesame coin.
The Bible has so much to sayabout people and our
relationships, and we canunderstand God through people
(15:42):
and we can, and we understandpeople through God.
So it is a two, two way streetthere.
But the clear, distinctive and,compelling reason for studying
psychology is because it gets ata deeper understanding of the
person and of our relationshipsand of what we call unconscious
resistances.
So my analogy about, you know, afoot on the gas and a foot on
(16:04):
the brake, you know, I'm askingfor help.
Say I'm talking to a spiritualdirector, I'm asking for help,
but as I do that, I'm beingself-critical in the background
in, in my mind.
And so I'm fighting myself.
And that's why we bring out thisconcept of self empathy that
Kristi was talking about.
This is an example of what wecall Jesus centered psychology.
We always want our psychology beto submitted to the Lord Jesus
(16:27):
and to his word.
And so what we see with selfempathy is that it's a way of
becoming aware of, I'm fightingmy own self.
I'm having trouble accepting,say, my cancer journey and the
pain and the div, and it's verynatural to feel that way.
But then if I start fightingmyself that, you know, I
shouldn't be tired, or why do Ihave to go through this?
(16:48):
Well, I need empathy for thosefeelings.
But if I don't come to a placeof trusting God and trusting the
medicine and the treatment andreally going with it and journey
with somebody else, then I'mgonna be fighting myself.
And so to be able, even toimagine good things coming.
So while you're taking yourmedicine, you're praying, you're
thanking God for the medicine.
(17:09):
While somebody is listening toyou or praying to you, you're
saying, thank you.
Yes, I need this, and you'requieting down and pushing back
that resistance inside of youthat says, oh, you shouldn't
need this.
You should be stronger.
You're receiving it, you'reabsorbing it, you're
appreciating it, you're sayingthank you.
And so we need some psychologyto understand these unconscious
resistances.
(17:30):
And this is one of the reasonswhy we really stress in Soul
Shepherding, and particularly inour book, Deeply Loved the
importance of self-awareness inunderstanding what's going on un
under the hood.
And where you're not reallylooking, and none of us can
really see ourselves accuratelyby ourselves.
We need God and God's word.
Obviously, we know that asChristians, but we also need one
(17:50):
another.
That's why Jesus taught us tolove one another.
It's in the context of ourrelationships with each other as
we share more deeply about ourlife, that we become more aware
of sins that we need to confess,hurts that need healing, places
where we're really tired, andalso these unconscious
resistances that are going on.
And so these are some of thereasons why psychology can be so
helpful.
(18:11):
And so even in Soul Shepherdingwe train spiritual directors.
We don't train counselors and wedo train counselors for
spiritual direction, but wedon't have counselors on our
staff.
We have spiritual directors onour staff.
But what we do is we train themin Jesus-centered psychology so
that the spiritual formation andspiritual direction is informed
by that Jesus-centeredpsychology.
So we're not treating mentalhealth disorders in Soul
(18:32):
Shepherding.
There are Christian therapistsand counselors people can go to
for that.
But we're training spiritualdirectors and coaches who are
really helping people in theirprayer life and their
relationship with God and theirpersonal struggles in the
context of their discipleship toJesus.
But it's so helpful when we havean understanding of
Jesus-centered psychology as itrelates to whatever we're
(18:54):
struggling with.
Ivelisse Page (18:56):
Yeah, I completely agree.
I've learned so much from youboth, and it has really been
eyeopening in so many facets ofeven deepening my own faith,
learning that aspect ofpsychology through your retreats
and this course, and in all ofthem.
And in the Deeply Loved book youmentioned the four As of
empathy.
(19:16):
Could you guys walk us throughthese and explain how that might
be helpful for someone trying tolove someone well, in the middle
of a health crisis or even acaregiving role?
Kristi Gaultiere (19:26):
Yes, the four A of empathy start with the
first day of asking.
We need to actually want to belistened to and understood and
be willing to share.
And so asking if someone couldlisten to you, someone could
seek to understand yourexperience is that key step.
Or asking somebody else that youlove, that you're wanting to
(19:50):
know, that you're wanting tolisten to and express and give
empathy to, to ask them if whatthey're experiencing.
Ask them good questions.
Curiosity can be a great way toshow them your interest, to help
them to feel safe and trustedthat you want to understand, so
that ask the asking to talk orthe asking to listen.
(20:11):
And then secondly, the second A,is attuning to the emotions as
you're listening to the personshare.
What are they feeling?
What are they experiencing?
What is it like to be in theirbody, with what they're feeling
physically, emotionally?
(20:31):
What is it like to have theirpersonality?
What is it like to be in therelationships they're in, the
circumstances to be carrying theresponsibilities they're
carrying, to really be attuningand listening for the emotions
of that and the level ofemotions.
And that leads to the third A,which is to acknowledge the
significance as you're listeningand as you're using your words
(20:55):
to help them know that you'reunderstanding, that you're
mirroring back to them whatyou're sensing from them, what
you're attuning to, and checkingit out with them.
So as you acknowledge thesignificance it might be, and
you're attunement to motion,you're discerning that maybe
they're feeling some level offear.
Well, you can check that outinto attuning to their emotions.
(21:16):
It seems like you might beafraid.
I'm wondering, is this just likean underlying anxiety that
you're feeling or are youfeeling terrified of going into
surgery or you know, likesomeone is approaching something
as you're listening to thatthey're maybe sharing with you
about, you wanna understand thesignificance of it and maybe
there's something uniquelysignificant to them about it.
Like maybe you had your lastmedical procedure didn't go
(21:39):
well.
And so you're even more afraidthis time.
That makes it more significant.
You wanna really personalizethis.
So that they understand, you'rereally getting the level of
their experience, the weight oftheir experience, the fullness
of the personalized to themright now in their life and
their journey.
(22:00):
And then fourth, and this isalways the last, you wanna
always end by affirming theirstrengths.
And I say this needs to be lastbecause if we rush to the
affirmation too early, whattends to happen is it tends to
shut down the person's awarenessand emotional process that
you're actually facilitating andholding the space for as you're
(22:24):
listening to them with empathy.
And that's a great gift you'regiving them to help them to be
able to bring what maybe they'renot even fully conscious of into
their awareness, into yourawareness.
One of the things that's such ablessing to me is I receive
empathy, is I often will hearmyself talking when someone's
listening to me with empathy, Iwas like, I didn't even realize
I felt that.
(22:44):
Or, oh, you know, that wasreally helpful for me to
articulate that, to name thatbecause it was affecting me, but
I hadn't had the chance toreally try to express it.
And so you're giving somebody areal gift as you're holding the
space, as you're tuning to theiremotions to help them in their
own awareness.
And you don't wanna shut thatdown by rushing too quick to
(23:04):
affirmation or encouragement.
Affirmation and encouragement issomething we all need,
especially after we have beenvulnerable like we need to be to
really receive empathy.
And so it's a good ending tosay, you know, I really admire
your courage to take me intoyour pain or to share your fear,
or, you know, that was reallyvulnerable, what you shared with
(23:25):
me there.
I respect you for that.
We want to let them knowgenuinely, how we do respect
them and champion them and toencourage them, but we don't
wanna shut down or, put patanswers on trying to fix them or
their emotions.
We just wanna call out and letthem know we are for them.
(23:47):
We see a lot of strength inthem, and to be specific with
what we see.
Ivelisse Page (23:52):
Yeah, so good.
You know, a t Believe Big, weoften say healing is more than
physical.
You guys know that very well.
You know, it's the emotional,the spiritual, relational.
You know, what is one simple waythat someone can begin to love
more deeply in relationshipsthat matter most, especially
when life feels overwhelming?
Bill Gaultiere (24:13):
You know, I think that the simple thing of
saying to a friend or someonethat you're a caregiver for, how
are you feeling, you know, andreally mean it.
Smile as you say it, and thenpause and listen and then follow
up.
You know, tell me more aboutthat.
It's that curiosity that Kristiwas talking about, it's, it is
having a soft heart to, toreally understand and care.
(24:37):
Everybody needs to be able toexpress themselves this way, so
it make, it makes a bigdifference when we just tune in
and listen.
And I think all of you, BelieveBig friends who are listening, I
think you're getting theunderstanding that the way we're
talking about empathy and DeeplyLoved is probably different than
you expected.
Because what you probablyexpected was a whole podcast.
(24:58):
It was like what I just said.
And the four A's of empathy,listening skills, asking
someone, how are you feeling,not interrupting, having great
questions.
You expected all of that andthat is in our book.
But that's not the main thing.
It's not the heart of it.
The heart of it actually islearning to receive empathy.
And that's where people go wrongis they think empathy is just
(25:18):
about learning and doing thelistening skills.
But actually to be really goodat empathy, you need to have a
heart of empathy.
And while some people arenaturally more empathetic than
others, the fullness of a heartof empathy comes from receiving
empathy from God and people thatyou trust.
And so as empathy gets in us andwe become more aware of our
(25:39):
emotions and we learn to be,have self empathy, to have
acceptance and grace for ouremotions and our struggles.
That helps us be more sensitiveto other people, aware of other
people, more able to tune in andbe gentle and patient with the
process so they really feelcared for.
And that's my story.
I'm a thinker and I'm a doer,not naturally very aware of my
(26:00):
emotions and in terms of how Igrew up and being an athlete and
all that.
And so I had to learn to slowdown and feel, and it happened
in college when one of mypsychology professors, I would.
I, became her teacher's aide.
And so as I met with her, shewould ask me, I was expecting to
learn of how to be a betterChristian counselor from her and
(26:21):
be mentored, but she's, shealways would say, well, Bill,
how are you feeling?
And so what I figured out was,oh, what I get for being a
teacher's aide is I getcounseling sessions.
But I didn't, when she asked me,how do you feel, I was like,
looking over my shoulder.
I didn't know how to respond,but little by little over the
time is she felt my emotionsthrough listening to me and
(26:41):
asking questions and then putwords to those emotions, I began
to feel my emotions and Istarted to learn how to receive
empathy.
And going on that journey iswhat's helped me become a safe
person for Kristi, because earlyon when I was still learning
this, I was too quick to giveadvice.
I was too much in my head.
I was wanting, you know, action.
I was jumping in with a fourthA, giving encouragement.
(27:04):
You know, everybody wantsencouragement, but if you do
that without empathy, it becomesperformance pressure.
It becomes conditions of worthand your ego gets attached to
it.
It's just like getting praise.
We all want a little praise, butempathy is really emotionally
being present for people to, tobe emotionally present for other
people.
We need to learn how to let Godand other people do that for us.
(27:25):
It's just like the scripturesays we love because God first
loved us.
Empathy is a component of love.
So we could paraphrase.
We empathize with others becauseGod in Jesus, and through
scripture and through the bodyof Christ is empathized with us.
So as empathy gets in me and Ilearn to receive it, I can share
(27:47):
it much better with otherpeople.
Ivelisse Page (27:49):
Yeah.
That's so good.
I think in our society we have alot of learning to do when it
comes to this side, and I'm gladthat people are learning through
the Soul Shepherding on how tobe a better listener, how to be
more empathetic.
Because it's true.
You walk in somewhere, say tochurch or to a meeting, and
you're like, how are you?
And everyone's like, fine.
You know, it's like the expectedanswer, but not really asking to
(28:12):
fully hear how someone is doing.
So being present, like you said,and really waiting for that
answer instead of just a normalresponse that we normally get.
And I think that's why it's soforeign, at least it was to me,
to, oh, you actually wanna knowhow I'm feeling.
So, thank you for all thatyou're doing to teach us about
this.
And before we close, you know,what encouragement would you
(28:35):
offer to someone listening todaywho feels emotionally drained?
They feel spiritually distant oruncertain if they're deeply
loved.
Bill Gaultiere (28:46):
Well, I would want you to know that if you can
look at Jesus, the son of Godwho became human for you, that
he is with you and he feelsdeeply for you.
And I'd want you to see Jesus,for instance, as he talks to the
rich young ruler who wasactually resisting Jesus.
Mark 10:21 says Jesus looked athim and loved him.
(29:09):
And if we could just look in theeyes of Jesus and see him in the
gospels, get a picture of him inour mind and see that there's
truly a smile on his face, awelcoming heart of love, and he
really cares for what you'regoing through right now.
He's numbered the hairs of yourhead.
(29:29):
He cares about every littledetail.
And wherever you're at in yourcancer journey, in your
struggles with pain, as acaregiver who's tired, the Lord
is looking at you with a smile,and he cares about you.
He wants you to have time foryour soul care, for your
wellbeing, you matter to God.
Ivelisse Page (29:51):
Well thank you Bill and Kristi for joining us
today.
Just love seeing you all and allthat you're doing to help others
in this world.
So God bless you and I'm excitedto share more about Deeply Loved
and your other resources.
We will put them in the shownotes for people to check them
out and to be able to purchasethem.
So thank you for joining ustoday.
Bill Gaultiere (30:11):
Thank you Ivelisse.
Thank you for being a woundedhealer for so many people who
are hurting.
It's a blessing to be on yourpodcast.
Ivelisse Page (30:26):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
discover our bonus content.
Thanks again and keep BelievingBig!
Hi, I am Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to
the Believe Big podcast, theshow where we take deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:34):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page andit's always a pleasure to be
able to spend this time withyou.
Okay, friends, are you in for atreat today?
My dear friends Bill and KristiGaultiere are here together to
talk about their new book,Deeply Loved.
(00:55):
A little bit about them first,Bill is a psychologist and an
ordained pastor specializing inministry to pastors.
He was personally mentored formany years by Dallas Willard and
Ray Ortlund, Sr.
His earlier book, Your Best Lifein Jesus' Easy Yoke, tells the
story of his spiritual renewalfrom anxious living and burnout,
(01:18):
and introduces the message andway of Soul Shepherding, an
organization that he co-foundedwith his wife, Kristi.
That was also the first book Iread during my sabbatical three
years ago, and it truly changedmy life.
Bill has also trained over athousand late counselors and
taught courses in Christianpsychology and spirituality at
(01:42):
the graduate school level.
He has been speaking to churchesand conferences since 1987.
Kristi, she has been on our showseveral times and is a
psychotherapist and a spiritualdirector for women in ministry
and pastor's wives.
She co-leads Soul Shepherdingwith Bill and was personally
(02:02):
mentored by Jane Willard and Dr.
Jan Stoop.
They are the co-founders of theamazing organization, Soul
Shepherding, a nonprofitministry to help believers
discover their next steps forgrowing in intimacy with Jesus,
emotional health, and lovingrelationships.
Welcome to the podcast, Bill andKristi.
Bill Gaultiere (02:25):
Thank you Ivelisse.
We, and I just, hello to all theBelieve Big friends.
We're so glad to be inconversation with you today.
Ivelisse Page (02:33):
Well, Kristi knows that we always start our
show with our favorite healthtip, and since this is the first
time that you're on, we wouldlove to hear one from you this
time.
Bill Gaultiere (02:41):
Yeah, well, I could give lots of health tips
because I care a lot about myhealth.
Every day I exercise and, getoutside of nature, things like
that.
But that, what I wanna share isthat maybe an unusual health tip
that actually relates to ourconversation is I've learned the
importance of asking forempathy.
And how much that makes adifference in my energy level
(03:02):
and my health.
And so truly every day I askKristi or a friend and of course
always the Lord for empathy tounderstand what I feel and what
I'm experiencing becauseotherwise I repress my emotions
and then it just gets clogged upinside and I can get de
depressed or anxious and rundown in terms of my energy and
all that internalization ofstress that is just so natural
(03:26):
in, in life today and incertainly in family life and in
ministry and in work is not goodfor our health.
So empathy helps us toexperience that cathartic
relief.
Ivelisse Page (03:37):
Yes.
And for those who are notfamiliar with empathy, I've been
learning a lot about that sincetaking your spiritual direction
training.
Explain to people what isempathy and how is that
different from, than sympathy.
Kristi Gaultiere (03:51):
Well, empathy is really attuning to, and
listening and seeking tounderstand another person's
thoughts, emotions, experiences,and as you listen and you attune
to them and you join and seekingto really understand their
experience, it helps them tofeel God's love and presence
with them.
(04:12):
It's using words to be able tomirror back to them what you're
hearing, to check it out, to seeif you really truly are
understanding, and to give theman opportunity to clarify, to
expand.
As we write about in our newbook, Deeply Loved, Receiving
and Reflecting God's GreatEmpathy, this is something that
we all long for, many of us havenever experienced, and as we
(04:36):
experience it, we recognize howdesperate we are to be really
understood, to be known, to beseen, to be heard, to feel
wanted.
Ivelisse Page (04:45):
Yes.
Yeah.
You're in the book.
You emphasize the healing andthe power of empathy, which
aligns beautifully with what wesee in the cancer journey, and I
believe you write"empathy isoxygen for the soul." Can you
explain why empathy is so vital,especially for those navigating
pain, fear, and uncertainty?
Bill Gaultiere (05:06):
Lemme just think about if you grow up in a smoggy
city and you're just alwaysbreathing un unclean, smoggy
air, and maybe you don't evenreal realize it because you've
adapted to it, but then you, oneday you get out into the country
where, and the air is clean andfresh and pure, and you breathe
in deep, it's like, oh mygoodness, what have I been
missing?
(05:26):
Empathy is like that.
It's ubiquitous.
I mean, I, everybody probablyhas some sense of what the word
means.
But a lot of people haven'treally experienced it, so it's
like that fresh air that fillsour lungs, the lungs of our
soul.
And I mean, this is so importantwhen we're struggling with our
health, certainly the cancerjourney, but also grief.
(05:46):
and, any sort of healthchallenges and sickness.
Because when we're in thiscondition chronic health issues
it's wearing down our energybecause our body needs so much
energy to go through thesurgery, the recovery, let alone
the emotional toll it all takes.
And so empathy is energizingwhen we learn how to receive it.
And that's the hard thing forsome people, because they feel
(06:08):
like, oh, but it is so hard tolet my emotions out.
You know, I don't wanna cry.
You know, I'm embarrassed.
And what people don't realize,it is like, we're living life
like we're with one foot on thegas and one foot on the brake.
And the foot on the gas is okayyou know, I need to share, I
need support.
I need someone to pray for me.
But the foot on the brake is,oh, I'm too emotional.
I'm too needy.
I should be stronger.
(06:28):
I shouldn't be dealing with allthis stuff.
And so with a foot on the gasand the foot on the brake and
our soul we're grinding ourengine and it's exhausting us.
So we have to learn how to notfight against ourself and how to
ask for empathy, receive it,appreciate.
And as we do that's where itreally releases stress and
energy and gives us energy,which enables us to have the
(06:50):
strength that we need, the hopethat we need the sense of I'm
not alone with this as we'redealing with health challenges.
Kristi Gaultiere (06:57):
And Ivelisse, I am familiar with the cancer
journey.
I lost my mom, my brother-in-lawto cancer within the last two
years, and my otherbrother-in-law, my sister's
husband now has pancreaticcancer and has been undergoing
treatment for the last year.
And I have seen the differencethat empathy makes in their
(07:19):
journey and in their life.
And even just recently as mysister expressed, you know, I
feel like.
It's not just my husband thathas cancer.
I feel like we have cancerbecause it has so affected her
life for the last year.
It has become front and centerfor her in the caregiving, in
the doctor's appointments, incaring for him in the middle of
(07:42):
the night in all the decisionsthat come with treatment in all
of the urgent interruptions thatcome of symptoms and side
effects and didn't expect thisand what now?
And even just recently, youknow, learning about a study
that he's on, lost funding,discontinued with just all the
ups and downs of the journey.
And she's going through it allwith him.
(08:04):
And so I was so grateful thatshe was able to recognize the we
in that because she needs asmuch empathy as he does.
There's still some differencesbetween his experience and hers,
and that's part of the empathyattuning to those differences.
You asked what's the differencebetween empathy and sympathy and
one big difference would besympathy isn't bad.
(08:25):
It's a good thing.
And I just am saying to many ofyour listeners, I have sympathy.
I have some understanding oftheir cancer journey from my
experience journey with my momand my two brother-in-laws, my
sisters through this, but Idon't have full empathy for
their unique experience.
And if they were to tell me, oh,I have cancer, or, oh, my
(08:48):
husband has cancer, or, oh, mymom has cancer, and I were to
respond with, oh, I know how youfeel.
That's such a hard journey.
My mom and sister, brothers, youknow, I've been on that.
It's just so hard.
That might be sympathy in termsof that I'm telling them I'm
feeling for them and I have someexperience with it, but I'm
turning the attention on me, andthen they may feel like, oh, now
(09:09):
I need to listen and care forKristi.
She's traumatized from hercancer, you know, her family
members she's journeyed with,and it's like, no, that's really
not what they need.
What they need is for me tolisten to their experience right
now.
Ivelisse Page (09:23):
Yes.
Well thank you for clarifyingthat.
That is, I love examples becauseit really brings us in and
knowing exactly the difference.
So that was a beautiful exampleof that.
You know, scripture is at theheart of Believe Big's mission
and what, what does the Bibleteach us about God's empathy and
how can embracing his compassionequip us to better love
(09:44):
ourselves and others through adiagnosis like cancer.
Bill Gaultiere (09:49):
Yeah, well there, there's so many
scriptures in our book, DeeplyLoved.
We actually reference over ahundred empathy scriptures we
call them.
And, not everybody sees thisbecause the word empathy is not
in the older translations of theBible.
It is in some of the newertranslations.
But the concept of empathy iseverywhere in scripture.
I mean, it's embedded incompassion.
(10:10):
For instance, compassion isoften the first word we think of
to describe Jesus.
And compassion without empathywouldn't be true compassion.
It wouldn't be truly helpfulbecause for compassion to have
the real impact that's healingand life changing for someone,
it needs to be based onunderstanding their true needs.
Sometimes we wanna do somethinggood for people, but it doesn't
(10:32):
actually fit what they reallyneed.
So we're giving'em a handout,but actually they need a hand
up.
They need their dignity,respected.
They need to learn something.
And so, empathy is all over theplace for so many examples.
Psalm 56, David writes, you havecollected all my tears in your
bottle.
I mean, if that's sort oflistening and tender care
(10:53):
towards our tears and our hurts,I mean, that's, if that's not
empathy what is that?
And Jeremiah the Lord says, Ilisten to the weeping of my
people.
It can be heard all across theland.
I hurt with the hurt of mypeople.
Back in Genesis 16 is an examplewhere Hagar the Lord is talking
to Hagar and then she begins touse a new name for God.
(11:17):
And she, she says to him, youare the God who sees me.
That's empathy.
And the scripture says, she saidthis because she thought, I see
that even in this place, herplace of grief and suffering,
God sees me and cares for me.
She's saying God has empathy forme.
(11:37):
In a, the Disciple Disciplesliteral New Testament
translation, we have this greatrendering of Matthew 20:34,
having felt deep feelings ofcompassion, Jesus touched their
eyes and they immediately sawagain and they followed him.
That's in Matthew 20:34.
A verse where many are familiarwith Romans 12:15.
(12:00):
Be happy with those who arehappy.
Be sad with those who are sad.
Empathy is for not just the sadtimes, it's also for the up
times, the celebrations.
It's sharing someone'sexperience with them, supporting
them, caring for them, and evencelebrating with them.
And then our favorite empathyverse, Hebrews 4:15, for we do
(12:20):
not have a high priest who isunable to empathize with our
weaknesses.
We have one who's been temptedin every way just as we are, and
yet he did not sin.
And so our Lord Jesus hasempathy for us.
He experienced everything in thehuman journey, including all
types of suffering.
Ivelisse Page (12:41):
I love those.
Thank you for sharing those.
You know, I think one of thehardest things as staff members
or even caregivers is that wetend to pour out empathy for
others.
And many times, like youmentioned, it's important to
have empathy for ourselves, selfempathy, and that being an
essential part of our lives, notonly for emotional health, but
(13:03):
for spiritual resilience.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout why self empathy is
essential?
Kristi Gaultiere (13:10):
Well, self empathy is essential because if
we are not agreeing with God'sgrace, with his love, with his
empathy for us, it's not gonnaget inside of us we'll spoil it,
and it's the same thing ifsomebody else is giving us
empathy and we're dismissing it.
Or in, in pride, we're notwanting to need it or we're shut
(13:31):
down against what they'reempathizing us with and we don't
wanna go and feel those emotionsat the time, then we're gonna
resist it.
We're gonna resist the gift ofempathy and we're gonna refuse
it.
And so self empathy, we actuallycall agreeing with God's grace.
It's a lot of people are afraidof self empathy because they
think it's self-pity, butself-pity is actually really
(13:52):
just, it's false empathy.
It's just kind of feeling sorryfor yourself.
It's maybe stirring up negativeemotions or playing the victim.
Self empathy is not self pity.
Self empathy is agreeing withGod's empathy for us and other
people's empathy for us, andwith our need for that empathy
and receiving that grace thatwe're not alone, that others are
(14:14):
with us, care for us, prayingfor us, journey with us, and
really can and want tounderstand what we're feeling
and experiencing, to better beable to love us.
The other thing that can be aresistance to self empathy is a
lot of people think self empathyis self-help.
It's not self-help in the senseof it's not, you know, hugging
(14:34):
yourself.
It just doesn't feel the same asa hug or it's not finding
answers within yourself, lookingwithin yourself for answers.
No.
It's agreeing with God's graceand truth for you, mediated by
shepherds after his own heartambassadors of him who are
giving you that empathy.
But without self empathy, wewon't appreciate the empathy
(14:55):
that God and others give us.
Ivelisse Page (14:57):
You know, one of the strengths of Deeply Loved,
as you mentioned, Bill, that ithas over a hundred scriptures on
empathy and it, I just love howit weaves biblical wisdom with
psychology insight.
So why is it important,especially for those dealing
with illness or grief tointegrate both faith and these
emotional tools in the healingprocess?
Bill Gaultiere (15:20):
Yeah.
When we think about spiritualityor theology, it's basically
about our relationship with Godand our life with God.
When we think about psychology,it's understanding people and
our relationships with oneanother, and the two go
together.
They're really two sides of thesame coin.
The Bible has so much to sayabout people and our
relationships, and we canunderstand God through people
(15:42):
and we can, and we understandpeople through God.
So it is a two, two way streetthere.
But the clear, distinctive and,compelling reason for studying
psychology is because it gets ata deeper understanding of the
person and of our relationshipsand of what we call unconscious
resistances.
So my analogy about, you know, afoot on the gas and a foot on
(16:04):
the brake, you know, I'm askingfor help.
Say I'm talking to a spiritualdirector, I'm asking for help,
but as I do that, I'm beingself-critical in the background
in, in my mind.
And so I'm fighting myself.
And that's why we bring out thisconcept of self empathy that
Kristi was talking about.
This is an example of what wecall Jesus centered psychology.
We always want our psychology beto submitted to the Lord Jesus
(16:27):
and to his word.
And so what we see with selfempathy is that it's a way of
becoming aware of, I'm fightingmy own self.
I'm having trouble accepting,say, my cancer journey and the
pain and the div, and it's verynatural to feel that way.
But then if I start fightingmyself that, you know, I
shouldn't be tired, or why do Ihave to go through this?
(16:48):
Well, I need empathy for thosefeelings.
But if I don't come to a placeof trusting God and trusting the
medicine and the treatment andreally going with it and journey
with somebody else, then I'mgonna be fighting myself.
And so to be able, even toimagine good things coming.
So while you're taking yourmedicine, you're praying, you're
thanking God for the medicine.
(17:09):
While somebody is listening toyou or praying to you, you're
saying, thank you.
Yes, I need this, and you'requieting down and pushing back
that resistance inside of youthat says, oh, you shouldn't
need this.
You should be stronger.
You're receiving it, you'reabsorbing it, you're
appreciating it, you're sayingthank you.
And so we need some psychologyto understand these unconscious
resistances.
(17:30):
And this is one of the reasonswhy we really stress in Soul
Shepherding, and particularly inour book, Deeply Loved the
importance of self-awareness inunderstanding what's going on un
under the hood.
And where you're not reallylooking, and none of us can
really see ourselves accuratelyby ourselves.
We need God and God's word.
Obviously, we know that asChristians, but we also need one
(17:50):
another.
That's why Jesus taught us tolove one another.
It's in the context of ourrelationships with each other as
we share more deeply about ourlife, that we become more aware
of sins that we need to confess,hurts that need healing, places
where we're really tired, andalso these unconscious
resistances that are going on.
And so these are some of thereasons why psychology can be so
helpful.
(18:11):
And so even in Soul Shepherdingwe train spiritual directors.
We don't train counselors and wedo train counselors for
spiritual direction, but wedon't have counselors on our
staff.
We have spiritual directors onour staff.
But what we do is we train themin Jesus-centered psychology so
that the spiritual formation andspiritual direction is informed
by that Jesus-centeredpsychology.
So we're not treating mentalhealth disorders in Soul
(18:32):
Shepherding.
There are Christian therapistsand counselors people can go to
for that.
But we're training spiritualdirectors and coaches who are
really helping people in theirprayer life and their
relationship with God and theirpersonal struggles in the
context of their discipleship toJesus.
But it's so helpful when we havean understanding of
Jesus-centered psychology as itrelates to whatever we're
(18:54):
struggling with.
Ivelisse Page (18:56):
Yeah, I completely agree.
I've learned so much from youboth, and it has really been
eyeopening in so many facets ofeven deepening my own faith,
learning that aspect ofpsychology through your retreats
and this course, and in all ofthem.
And in the Deeply Loved book youmentioned the four As of
empathy.
(19:16):
Could you guys walk us throughthese and explain how that might
be helpful for someone trying tolove someone well, in the middle
of a health crisis or even acaregiving role?
Kristi Gaultiere (19:26):
Yes, the four A of empathy start with the
first day of asking.
We need to actually want to belistened to and understood and
be willing to share.
And so asking if someone couldlisten to you, someone could
seek to understand yourexperience is that key step.
Or asking somebody else that youlove, that you're wanting to
(19:50):
know, that you're wanting tolisten to and express and give
empathy to, to ask them if whatthey're experiencing.
Ask them good questions.
Curiosity can be a great way toshow them your interest, to help
them to feel safe and trustedthat you want to understand, so
that ask the asking to talk orthe asking to listen.
(20:11):
And then secondly, the second A,is attuning to the emotions as
you're listening to the personshare.
What are they feeling?
What are they experiencing?
What is it like to be in theirbody, with what they're feeling
physically, emotionally?
(20:31):
What is it like to have theirpersonality?
What is it like to be in therelationships they're in, the
circumstances to be carrying theresponsibilities they're
carrying, to really be attuningand listening for the emotions
of that and the level ofemotions.
And that leads to the third A,which is to acknowledge the
significance as you're listeningand as you're using your words
(20:55):
to help them know that you'reunderstanding, that you're
mirroring back to them whatyou're sensing from them, what
you're attuning to, and checkingit out with them.
So as you acknowledge thesignificance it might be, and
you're attunement to motion,you're discerning that maybe
they're feeling some level offear.
Well, you can check that outinto attuning to their emotions.
(21:16):
It seems like you might beafraid.
I'm wondering, is this just likean underlying anxiety that
you're feeling or are youfeeling terrified of going into
surgery or you know, likesomeone is approaching something
as you're listening to thatthey're maybe sharing with you
about, you wanna understand thesignificance of it and maybe
there's something uniquelysignificant to them about it.
Like maybe you had your lastmedical procedure didn't go
(21:39):
well.
And so you're even more afraidthis time.
That makes it more significant.
You wanna really personalizethis.
So that they understand, you'rereally getting the level of
their experience, the weight oftheir experience, the fullness
of the personalized to themright now in their life and
their journey.
(22:00):
And then fourth, and this isalways the last, you wanna
always end by affirming theirstrengths.
And I say this needs to be lastbecause if we rush to the
affirmation too early, whattends to happen is it tends to
shut down the person's awarenessand emotional process that
you're actually facilitating andholding the space for as you're
(22:24):
listening to them with empathy.
And that's a great gift you'regiving them to help them to be
able to bring what maybe they'renot even fully conscious of into
their awareness, into yourawareness.
One of the things that's such ablessing to me is I receive
empathy, is I often will hearmyself talking when someone's
listening to me with empathy, Iwas like, I didn't even realize
I felt that.
(22:44):
Or, oh, you know, that wasreally helpful for me to
articulate that, to name thatbecause it was affecting me, but
I hadn't had the chance toreally try to express it.
And so you're giving somebody areal gift as you're holding the
space, as you're tuning to theiremotions to help them in their
own awareness.
And you don't wanna shut thatdown by rushing too quick to
(23:04):
affirmation or encouragement.
Affirmation and encouragement issomething we all need,
especially after we have beenvulnerable like we need to be to
really receive empathy.
And so it's a good ending tosay, you know, I really admire
your courage to take me intoyour pain or to share your fear,
or, you know, that was reallyvulnerable, what you shared with
(23:25):
me there.
I respect you for that.
We want to let them knowgenuinely, how we do respect
them and champion them and toencourage them, but we don't
wanna shut down or, put patanswers on trying to fix them or
their emotions.
We just wanna call out and letthem know we are for them.
(23:47):
We see a lot of strength inthem, and to be specific with
what we see.
Ivelisse Page (23:52):
Yeah, so good.
You know, a t Believe Big, weoften say healing is more than
physical.
You guys know that very well.
You know, it's the emotional,the spiritual, relational.
You know, what is one simple waythat someone can begin to love
more deeply in relationshipsthat matter most, especially
when life feels overwhelming?
Bill Gaultiere (24:13):
You know, I think that the simple thing of
saying to a friend or someonethat you're a caregiver for, how
are you feeling, you know, andreally mean it.
Smile as you say it, and thenpause and listen and then follow
up.
You know, tell me more aboutthat.
It's that curiosity that Kristiwas talking about, it's, it is
having a soft heart to, toreally understand and care.
(24:37):
Everybody needs to be able toexpress themselves this way, so
it make, it makes a bigdifference when we just tune in
and listen.
And I think all of you, BelieveBig friends who are listening, I
think you're getting theunderstanding that the way we're
talking about empathy and DeeplyLoved is probably different than
you expected.
Because what you probablyexpected was a whole podcast.
(24:58):
It was like what I just said.
And the four A's of empathy,listening skills, asking
someone, how are you feeling,not interrupting, having great
questions.
You expected all of that andthat is in our book.
But that's not the main thing.
It's not the heart of it.
The heart of it actually islearning to receive empathy.
And that's where people go wrongis they think empathy is just
(25:18):
about learning and doing thelistening skills.
But actually to be really goodat empathy, you need to have a
heart of empathy.
And while some people arenaturally more empathetic than
others, the fullness of a heartof empathy comes from receiving
empathy from God and people thatyou trust.
And so as empathy gets in us andwe become more aware of our
(25:39):
emotions and we learn to be,have self empathy, to have
acceptance and grace for ouremotions and our struggles.
That helps us be more sensitiveto other people, aware of other
people, more able to tune in andbe gentle and patient with the
process so they really feelcared for.
And that's my story.
I'm a thinker and I'm a doer,not naturally very aware of my
(26:00):
emotions and in terms of how Igrew up and being an athlete and
all that.
And so I had to learn to slowdown and feel, and it happened
in college when one of mypsychology professors, I would.
I, became her teacher's aide.
And so as I met with her, shewould ask me, I was expecting to
learn of how to be a betterChristian counselor from her and
(26:21):
be mentored, but she's, shealways would say, well, Bill,
how are you feeling?
And so what I figured out was,oh, what I get for being a
teacher's aide is I getcounseling sessions.
But I didn't, when she asked me,how do you feel, I was like,
looking over my shoulder.
I didn't know how to respond,but little by little over the
time is she felt my emotionsthrough listening to me and
(26:41):
asking questions and then putwords to those emotions, I began
to feel my emotions and Istarted to learn how to receive
empathy.
And going on that journey iswhat's helped me become a safe
person for Kristi, because earlyon when I was still learning
this, I was too quick to giveadvice.
I was too much in my head.
I was wanting, you know, action.
I was jumping in with a fourthA, giving encouragement.
(27:04):
You know, everybody wantsencouragement, but if you do
that without empathy, it becomesperformance pressure.
It becomes conditions of worthand your ego gets attached to
it.
It's just like getting praise.
We all want a little praise, butempathy is really emotionally
being present for people to, tobe emotionally present for other
people.
We need to learn how to let Godand other people do that for us.
(27:25):
It's just like the scripturesays we love because God first
loved us.
Empathy is a component of love.
So we could paraphrase.
We empathize with others becauseGod in Jesus, and through
scripture and through the bodyof Christ is empathized with us.
So as empathy gets in me and Ilearn to receive it, I can share
(27:47):
it much better with otherpeople.
Ivelisse Page (27:49):
Yeah.
That's so good.
I think in our society we have alot of learning to do when it
comes to this side, and I'm gladthat people are learning through
the Soul Shepherding on how tobe a better listener, how to be
more empathetic.
Because it's true.
You walk in somewhere, say tochurch or to a meeting, and
you're like, how are you?
And everyone's like, fine.
You know, it's like the expectedanswer, but not really asking to
(28:12):
fully hear how someone is doing.
So being present, like you said,and really waiting for that
answer instead of just a normalresponse that we normally get.
And I think that's why it's soforeign, at least it was to me,
to, oh, you actually wanna knowhow I'm feeling.
So, thank you for all thatyou're doing to teach us about
this.
And before we close, you know,what encouragement would you
(28:35):
offer to someone listening todaywho feels emotionally drained?
They feel spiritually distant oruncertain if they're deeply
loved.
Bill Gaultiere (28:46):
Well, I would want you to know that if you can
look at Jesus, the son of Godwho became human for you, that
he is with you and he feelsdeeply for you.
And I'd want you to see Jesus,for instance, as he talks to the
rich young ruler who wasactually resisting Jesus.
Mark 10:21 says Jesus looked athim and loved him.
(29:09):
And if we could just look in theeyes of Jesus and see him in the
gospels, get a picture of him inour mind and see that there's
truly a smile on his face, awelcoming heart of love, and he
really cares for what you'regoing through right now.
He's numbered the hairs of yourhead.
(29:29):
He cares about every littledetail.
And wherever you're at in yourcancer journey, in your
struggles with pain, as acaregiver who's tired, the Lord
is looking at you with a smile,and he cares about you.
He wants you to have time foryour soul care, for your
wellbeing, you matter to God.
Ivelisse Page (29:51):
Well thank you Bill and Kristi for joining us
today.
Just love seeing you all and allthat you're doing to help others
in this world.
So God bless you and I'm excitedto share more about Deeply Loved
and your other resources.
We will put them in the shownotes for people to check them
out and to be able to purchasethem.
So thank you for joining ustoday.
Bill Gaultiere (30:11):
Thank you Ivelisse.
Thank you for being a woundedhealer for so many people who
are hurting.
It's a blessing to be on yourpodcast.
Ivelisse Page (30:26):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
discover our bonus content.
Thanks again and keep BelievingBig!
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