July 29, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of the Believe Big Podcast, Ivelisse welcomes Dr. Rob Reimer to discuss the critical topic of demonic deliverance. They explore the concept of spiritual warfare, how evil spirits can influence individuals, and the steps to achieve freedom from such influences.
Dr. Reimer, a founder of Renewal International and author, shares his first encounter with demonic influences, the factors that prevent deliverance, and various access points like sin, secrets, and curses that allow demonic entities to enter.
The episode also addresses the distinction between demonic possession and influence, clarifies misconceptions about spiritual attacks, and offers guidance on finding proper deliverance practices. An enriching conversation filled with practical insights and spiritual wisdom.
Learn more about Dr. Rob Reimer at Renewal International:
https://renewalinternational.org/
Suggested Resources:
- BOOK: Soul Care
- Dr. Reimer's recorded sermons
- PODCAST: Real Faith Stories - The Transforming Power of Suffering Wisely
- Dr. Reimer's upcoming events, including Soul Care Conferences
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ivelisse Page (00:06):
Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page, and thanks for listening
to the Believe Big Podcast, theshow where we take a deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:35):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page andit's an honor to be with you
today.
Today we have Dr.
Rob Reimer back on the show todiscuss a subject that I felt
really needed a full episode todiscuss, and that's a topic of
demonic deliverance.
There is an invisible war thatmany of us are completely
(00:56):
unaware of.
It is a spiritual war whereSatan and his demons are
actively trying to destroy everyarea of our lives.
How do we engage in this battleso that we can begin to live in
victory and freedom?
A little bit about Dr.
Reimer, he is the founder ofRenewal International, and he
assists pastors, leaders, andchurches globally by equipping
(01:18):
people to live in freedom inChrist and to walk in the
fullness and the power of theHoly Spirit.
He has served as a professor ofpastoral theology at Alliance
University in New York and isthe founding and lead pastor of
a church in New England, andalso the author of seven books.
Welcome Dr.
Reimer to the show.
Dr. Rob Reimer (01:37):
Thank you, Ivelisse.
Good to be back with you.
Ivelisse Page (01:39):
So, I know last time you shared about your
favorite health tip, about thephysical, the emotional, and the
spiritual.
Do you have a different one?
Dr. Rob Reimer (01:48):
Yeah, so I'll give you another one.
So one of my favorite healthtips is that it takes two
healthy people to have a healthyrelationship.
Scale of 1 to 10, if you're a 3in terms of your emotional,
spiritual health, the healthiestrelationship you'll ever have is
a 3.
And the only way you can getfrom a 3 to a 5 is you have to
change.
If you do what you've alwaysdone, you're going to get what
(02:09):
you've always got.
And so we have to become healthypeople to have healthy
interactions with others.
Ivelisse Page (02:15):
So good, so good, I love that.
So I would love to start byhaving you share the story of
how you first became aware ofdemonic influence in our world.
You mention in your book, SoulCare, that you grew up in a
church that really didn't talkabout it, even though you knew
the Bible talked about it andthat Jesus and his disciples did
deliverance.
(02:36):
And I'm sure there are many,many listening today that are in
the same boat.
So can you
Dr. Rob Reimer (02:40):
share?
Yeah, we grew up in a Biblebelieving evangelical church,
but you know, the only time youever heard anybody talk about
this stuff was either when theypreached from the Gospels, Jesus
doing deliverance, or maybe amissionary would come to town
from some exotic place likeThailand or Africa or something.
And you know, your worldview isvery seldom thought through.
(03:00):
It's just assimilated.
So, you know, you start tothink, well, I guess demons live
in Thailand and in Africa, butwe've apparently kicked them all
out of the good old U.
S.
of A, right?
They don't live here.
And so that would have been myworldview.
And I was in seminary.
I'm in my second year ofseminary.
I was talking to my then fiance,now my wife.
We were on, I was on a payphone.
(03:21):
I'm dating myself, Ivelisse, butI on a pay phone and I'm sitting
on this pay phone and there's akid pacing in front of the phone
and I thought, ah he's waitingto use the phone.
I said, Hey, I got to go.
And I hung up and I said, thephone's available.
And he goes, actually, I waswaiting to talk to you.
And I thought, well, all right,well, I didn't know the kid.
Oh, you were on a seminarycampus, but the college campus
(03:42):
shared space.
And so I figured he's probably acollege kid.
I didn't know lots of thecollege kids.
So I sit down to talk with himand I'm not three minutes into a
conversation with this kid.
And I got a thought that hasnever entered my mind.
Now at this point in my life,I'm 23 years old, right?
And I just thought this kid hasdemons.
And there's three reasons why Ithought it, right?
First, the first thing he toldme was he was hearing voices and
(04:05):
the voices were telling him tokill his father.
Oh, no, that seemed pretty darkto me, right?
Second thing, he's so confused.
He can't put in two to threesentences in a row that just
have logical sequential order.
And he just is super confused.
That could have been mentalillness.
Admittedly, at that point in mylife, I had very little
experience with mental illness,but it didn't feel like it.
(04:27):
It felt demonic.
And finally, periodically, we'rehaving this conversation.
He just leaned his head to theside and growled like, I don't
know.
That's felt a little dark to metoo.
Right.
And I think most people at thatpoint may have picked up on the
fact that this was demonic, butyou know, I think most people
would have tried to get out ofthe conversation as soon as they
(04:48):
could run for the hills.
But I actually believe what I'mabout to say.
I think your next level with Godlies beyond the boundaries of
your current experience, and theonly way you can get there is
risk more than you'recomfortable with.
If you do what you've alwaysdone, you will only ever see
what you can accomplish.
If you want to see what God canaccomplish, you've got to get
out into the spaces where youcan't do it.
(05:10):
And so, you know, I looked atthis kid, and I just said to
him, you know, Rich, have youever considered that your
problems could be demonic?
He looks at me and he goes, youthink I have demons, don't you?
I'm like, yeah, I really do.
And he's like, yeah, well, youknow, John Ellenberger told me I
had demons, but I didn't believehim.
Well, John was a missiologist.
He was a missions professor inthe school that I was attending.
(05:31):
John had been a missionary toIrian Jaya.
They had seen 6, 000 Donnypeople come to faith in one day.
These were animistic people.
They would worship these demonicentities and they would appear
to them out of the fireceremonies physically.
And John did deliverance.
Man, he'd done more deliveranceat that point than anybody I
knew.
I just looked at the kid andsaid, listen, if John
(05:53):
Ellenberger says you havedemons, then you have demons.
And I said, if you're willing,I'll get John and we'll have a
session with you and I'll, I'llbe there as support to you.
I'll pray.
I mean, John'll lead it, he'sgot experience and, uh, he was
willing and we tried, the kidhad some stuff he wouldn't
repent of.
So we couldn't actually get anydemons out.
(06:13):
And, and that was my firstexperience.
I was 23 years old and it openedmy eyes to the fact that, hey,
there's demons, even in the goodol U.
S.
of A.
Who knew?
Ivelisse Page (06:22):
You mentioned something really, I was going to
ask it later on in the podcast,but you said it couldn't be
deliverance because deliveredbecause he was unwilling to be
repentant.
What are some other factors thatprevent that deliverance?
Dr. Rob Reimer (06:36):
So there's really, there's three big areas
of access.
I like to use the word access,right, or ground.
You could use the word ground.
One is sin, and sin is reallysimple.
If you repent, then the sin iscovered by the blood of Christ
and the access is broken.
So that's that, right?
But if you're not willing torepent, then I always say to
(06:58):
people, you're a spiritual beingin a spiritual world.
You're always giving awayspiritual access.
You don't get to choose if yougive away access, you only get
to choose to whom you give awayaccess.
You pick up the tools of thekingdom of evil one, and you are
giving access to the evil one.
You pick up the tools of thekingdom of God, you're giving
access to, to Jesus.
(07:18):
So, if you have bitterness,which is part of what he had.
If you have bitterness in yoursoul, you are giving access to
satan through bitterness.
That's a tool of the enemy.
Jesus told you to love yourenemies, bless those who curse
you, forgive those who sinagainst you.
When you pick up those tools,now you're giving access to
Jesus.
Boom.
All ground is wiped out withthat, right?
(07:40):
But if you're not willing toforgive, not willing to repent,
then the ground is still there.
Second area besides sin would besecrets.
And I'm not talking about yoursecrets at this point.
These are things that happen tofamilies, and things that
families do, and they never talkabout.
But it's darkness.
Somebody's given Satan access inthe family, and no one's ever
(08:03):
addressed the access.
I'll just give you an example.
I was praying with a guy one dayin my doctoral class and I had
been doing deliverance with theclass in a, in a doctoral
setting.
And this guy comes up to meafterwards and he's like, Hey,
would you just pray with meindividually?
He goes, I just want to makesure I don't have anything.
And I said, sure.
(08:23):
So I go to lay my hand on him.
And as soon as I go to lay ahand on this guy, immediately I
know his mother was molested.
I don't know him.
I don't know anything about him.
But I just said to him, I said,do you know any story about your
mother being molested?
He's like, well, no.
And I'm like, I think so.
And I put my hand in the centerof his chest.
(08:45):
And I just said, blocking spiritcome forth.
Now a blocking spirit is aspirit that is associated with a
sexual abuse spirit, and theirwhole job is to keep you from
discovering the sexual abusespirits.
And they usually manifest insome way, mostly emotionally,
that's how they mostly manifest.
And so when I said blockingspirit come forth, his tongue
(09:07):
doubled in size.
And he couldn't speak.
He was mute, which I've neverseen that manifestation before
or since.
It was just so bizarre.
And I just looked at him.
I go, your mother was molested.
And he looks at me and he nodshis head.
And then I called the spiritforward.
His name was Secrecy.
And then when I called thatspirit forward, we got through
(09:28):
the sexual abuse spirit.
I just, when I finished with hisdeliverance, I said to him, go
ask your mother if she wasmolested.
He did.
He called her that night.
She had been molested.
She had never told a soul.
It had happened 40 years earlieror some odd amount, I don't
know, 50 years earlier, and shehad never told anybody.
And, you know, so sometimesthere's a secret like that in a
(09:50):
family where something got toenter in because of something
that happened or somethingsomeone did.
And now there's this spiritthat's there, but it's hiding
underneath the secrecy of thefamily.
And then the third area iscurses.
And you know, some curses arethings like, uh, ceremonies or
(10:12):
covenants through otherreligion, right?
So for example, all religion isceremonial and covenantial.
We have that as Christians.
We do baby dedications andbaptisms and communion and all
these kinds of things.
We anoint people with oil forhealing.
There's ceremonies, right?
We do covenants too.
We are in the new covenant ofJesus blood, et cetera.
(10:33):
Well, all the other religions doit too.
So they do baby dedications too,but a baby dedication done in
any other name, but the name ofJesus is a curse, even though
the parents mean it as ablessing.
Demons never bless.
They only curse.
They hate us.
So when you do a baby dedicationin another person's name, it
(10:55):
creates a curse.
And so, you know, that would bethe third kind of an example of
how they get access.
You have to discover thoseaccess points either through
natural knowledge orsupernatural knowledge through
the Holy Spirit, and then youhave to break them.
And then you can kick them out.
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care together.
Ivelisse Page (12:47):
Can you share with our listeners about the
discussion you had with a mediumthat lived in your town and
share what you told her aboutthe difference between good
spirits and bad spirits.
Dr. Rob Reimer (12:57):
Sure.
We had a lady when we wereliving in the Boston area who
was a well known medium actuallyhad written bestselling books in
the New York Times on mediums.
Anyhow, I just wanted to get toknow her.
I mean, she was really wellknown and, lots of people would
refer to her, go to her.
She would sell out showssometimes with hundreds of
people and stuff.
(13:18):
And she was authentic, spiritualpower, obviously dark side
power, but authentic spiritualpower.
She wasn't a charlatan.
And so she walked up to a ladyin my church one time and read
her mail.
Just like you were, you hadcancer.
You had a baby while you hadcancer.
You were in the hospital.
Your cancer's in remission andthe baby's fine.
(13:38):
Everything she said was spot on.
Never met the lady before.
And, just had that kind of stuffgoing on, you know?
And, anyhow, so one day I justasked her for a lunch.
And, I did it with a friend ofmine who was her pediatrician.
And I just said, Hey, let's dolunch with her.
And so he set up the lunch and Isat down with her and I said,
(13:59):
listen, you know, you're, you'reone of the top spiritual
influencers in our town.
And I really just wanted to hearyour story.
I just wanted to get to knowyou.
She's like.
All right.
And she was a little nervous,you know, as you might expect.
And, honestly, I think she's alittle nervous cause Christians
aren't always nice to her.
And, so I said, all right, well,I said, I just would like to get
to know you.
(14:19):
So, uh, tell me your story.
So she was Catholic.
She's telling me about all kindsof Catholics experiences and
upbringing all this kind ofstuff.
And then I she's also asyncretist, right?
She's bringing in all theseother different practices from
all these other differentreligions and she started
telling me some of thosestories.
She may be halfway through herstory or something and she looks
(14:39):
at me and she leans in real hardacross the table and she goes,
what do you think about all thisreally?
And I looked at her and I saidto her, I said, well, I said,
before I answer that, I said,can I tell you something that's
been on my heart since themoment I saw you?
She goes, yeah.
I said, I want you to know thatthe Father loves you.
(15:00):
And she burst into tears and Ijust reached out and took her
hand.
And I just said to her, I said,listen, I said, the Father's
been after you your whole life.
And I want you to know from themoment you walked into this we
were in a restaurant, I said, Icould feel the Father's tender
affections flowing towards you.
He loves you.
(15:20):
And, uh, you know, people allthe time get wigged out by this
stuff, but at the end of theday, these people that are
acting on these things aren'tour enemies, they're duped by
our enemy.
And you know, they're justpeople Jesus died for.
So they're not the enemy, wecan't treat them like the enemy.
And you know, Jesus isn't afraidof this stuff.
I always say to people, whenyou're nervous about something,
(15:41):
you're out of alignment withJesus, because Jesus isn't
nervous.
Jesus hasn't had a nervous dayin the last two millennia.
Today's not his day.
You're not his girl.
I'm not his guy.
So when I'm nervous, it'sbecause I've lost sight of
Jesus, right?
So anyways, these things don'tmake me nervous.
So I just sat there and listenedto her for a little more.
She told the rest of her storyand when she finished telling
her story, she went back to thequestion.
(16:02):
What do you think of all thisreally?
And what I said to her is Isaid, listen, I think you've had
a lot of authentic experience.
I think your experiences arereal.
I wouldn't question that.
I said, but I think there's adifference between the spiritual
world.
There are good spirits and thereare bad spirits.
And I said, you've had someexperiences with some good
spirits.
I mean, she told me stuff aboutthe Father, Son, and Holy
spirit.
(16:23):
And then she's had some badspiritual experiences.
And I said to her, I said, someof those guys that you've
interacted with are acting likegood guys, but they're not
really good guys.
And I said, they're deceiving.
And she looks at me and shegoes, do you think that's why my
children have apparitions in thenight and are terrified?
And I go, yeah, I do.
(16:44):
And she looked at me and shesaid, well, could you get rid of
those?
I said, yeah, absolutely.
But you'd have to stop being amedium.
Oh, I can't do that.
She said, that's where I make mymoney.
And I'm like, then you're goingto keep welcoming those spirits
back.
So your children are going tocontinue, unfortunately, to have
those apparitions.
Ivelisse Page (17:02):
Wow, I just love the way that you ask questions
in such a loving way, and Ithink that that's a lesson for
everyone listening, that whenyou're speaking to someone who
may not have a fullunderstanding of who Jesus is,
that we need to ask questions inlove, because as we know, love
does conquer all, and I justlove that story so much.
(17:23):
Can you explain the difference,and this is something that I'm
sure you get asked about a lot,the difference between demonic
possession and influence, andcan Christians be possessed?
Dr. Rob Reimer (17:35):
Alright, so first, I would never use the
word possessed.
The actual Greek word isdemonization.
So if I were actually going touse the word, I would just
transliterate it right acrossinto English and just call it
demonization.
And the word demonization isonly ever used in the New
Testament for an indwellingdemonic spirit.
And the only solution for thatis the Greek word ekballo, to
(18:00):
cast out.
That is because it's within.
So again, think of your soul fora second like a suitcase, right?
So here's the reality.
You put your faith in JesusChrist.
The Holy Spirit now lives withinyou.
You are in Christ.
Christ is in you, but you stillhave sin in the suitcase of your
soul.
That's a fact.
As a matter of fact, 1 Johnchapter 1 says, if you say you
don't have any sin, you're aliar and you call God a liar.
(18:22):
So we have sin.
Now hear me for a second.
We have everything we need inChrist to overcome sin, but we
still have sin.
That's the fact, right?
Putting our faith in Christdidn't eliminate our struggle
with sin.
It also is a fact that we stillhave human brokenness.
We have heartache, we havebrokenness, we have disfunction.
Putting our faith in Christdidn't overcome all of our
(18:44):
dysfunction, heartache andbrokenness.
Why do we think that putting ourfaith in Christ immediately
eliminates all of thesespiritual beings, these entities
that are out there.
That's not the way Jesus doesdiscipleship.
The way Jesus does discipleshipis that he puts his Holy Spirit
in us so that we can learn tolive in his victories, right?
(19:06):
So that's how we have to walkout of our sin and into his
holiness.
That's how we have to walk outof our brokenness and into his
wholeness.
And that's how we have to walkthrough demonic stuff that we
may have picked up in life andwalk into, you know, a sense of
cleansing from those things thatthey're kicked out.
Um, so what I would say is the,the analogy, if you think about
(19:29):
it this way for a second, twothings.
One, the suitcase belongs toGod, right?
So possession.
isn't really at stake.
The problem with the Englishtranslation demon possession is
that possession impliesownership.
And I want to say even a nonbeliever can't be possessed.
(19:50):
I would argue even a nonbeliever can't be possessed
because they're owned by God.
Listen, do you remember thestory where Jesus talks about
the guy, comes to him and says,you know, should we pay taxes?
Because the Pharisees are alltrying to get him, right?
And he says, give me a coin,whose image is on the coin?
Caesar's.
Oh, well then render to Caesarwhat is Caesar's, but give to
God what is God's.
Do you catch what he's saying?
(20:10):
He's saying, listen, that coinis stamped with the image of
Caesar, therefore it belongs toCaesar, but you, are stamped
with the image of God.
Therefore, you belong to God.
That is true for every singlehuman.
Non believer and believer alike,we belong to God.
So, possession is not a biblicalconcept.
I would say that's a terribleEnglish translation coming out
(20:31):
of a Western worldview thatdoesn't understand spiritual
things.
Okay?
So, what we're talking about,really, is can a demon indwell
someone?
Well, yeah, sure.
Of course.
Christian or not, sure.
Absolutely.
But what you're looking at isthe suitcase belongs to God.
I think of God's, sanctificationprocess, and this is the second
thing I was going to point out.
(20:52):
God's sanctification process,right?
How God cleans us up to make usholy, right?
So the Old Testament, when theclean comes in contact with the
unclean, the clean becomesdefiled.
In the New Testament, when theclean comes in contact with the
unclean, the unclean becomesclean.
(21:13):
Jesus touches the leper.
All the crowds are like, Youcan't do that, right?
But when Jesus touches theleper, the leper becomes clean.
That's what happens, right?
And you know what?
I think Jesus' strategy forcleaning us up was to throw His
Holy Spirit right into themiddle of our messy souls.
That's His strategy.
(21:34):
And he's like, we'll figure itout as you go along.
And, he doesn't make everythinggo away.
Doesn't make demons go away,heartache go away, dysfunction
go away, sin go away.
He puts his Holy Spirit in thereand journeys with us to victory.
Ivelisse Page (21:46):
Yeah.
So like demons or evil spirits,unclean spirits, you know, in
scripture, they're all reallyfallen angels.
And they seek to control peopleto wreak havoc in our lives,
enslave them to spiritualbondage.
So how do spirits actually enterand how does a person, get
demonized?
Dr. Rob Reimer (22:04):
So the main answer is sin.
Right?
That's the big answer.
They come in through sin.
So let me explain what I meanand what I don't mean.
So first, what I don't mean.
So sin, listen, they don't, theydon't come in because, you're
driving out of here today andyou do a universal sign of
(22:25):
disapproval for someone that'sjust cut you off.
And now all of a sudden, becauseyou've done that, you have
picked up a demon.
I don't mean that, right?
There are certain sins thatallow them to enter.
And there's a world ofdifference between, I'm
struggling to work out my faithwith fear and trembling, as the
scripture says, and I'm livingin rebellion.
(22:48):
Rebellion, the Old Testamentconversation between Samuel the
prophet and Saul the first king.
Rebellion is as the sin ofwitchcraft.
And when you're doing rebellion,you're giving full access to
Satan.
So if you have an area of yourlife where you're living in open
rebellion, yeah, you're going togive access.
(23:10):
Could there be demonization thatoccurs because of that?
Absolutely, 100%, for sure.
Okay?
Then there's certain types ofsin that allow demonization.
So, I mean, I'll give you acouple of examples, but, I mean,
obviously, occult activity.
If you're engaged in otherreligious practice, you're
engaged in worshiping otherentities, deities, you're gonna
(23:32):
pick up demons.
I mean, you're giving them fullaccess.
So, when you do that, thenthey're going to choose to
enter, right?
That's an obvious one, I wouldsay, but, I'll give you another
one.
Sex.
Listen, there's a lot of thingsthat I don't fully understand,
but I can tell you that I cansee both scripturally as well as
I can see experientially, andthat is sometimes demons can be
(23:54):
transferred through sex.
Now, won't happen in marriagebecause you're under the
covenant of God.
But when you step outside thecovenantal system of God, you
open yourself up to thatpossibility.
So for example, one of theclassic examples would be
prostitution.
I don't know anybody that'sengaged in prostitution that
doesn't pick up demons.
(24:14):
I've actually done deliveranceon hundreds of prostitutes.
Now, you know this, some of themdidn't choose prostitution.
They were trafficked, but at theend of the day, it doesn't
matter.
They were prostituted and as aresult, they picked up demons
and they need deliverance.
And I've done that hundreds oftimes with people.
Um, some of them are streetwalkers or some were high class
(24:35):
escorts, but I got to tell you,know what a lot of it was?
They weren't actually gettingmoney.
They were exchanging sex fordrugs or sex for a favor.
But at the end of the day,spiritually, that's
prostitution.
When that line is crossed,demons cross over and enter in.
So there's a transference thatcan occur.
The fact that they can enterthrough sexuality tells me that
(24:56):
the more sexual partners youhave outside of marriage, the
more vulnerable you are.
I would argue safe sex, youknow, one man, one woman,
monogamous relationship formarriage, for life, is not just
safe sex, it's safespirituality.
And this is why God has set itup.
So you start going into 200partners, the chances of you
picking up some sort of a sexualspirit in that process, I mean,
(25:21):
it's super high.
It's really, really likely,right?
So yeah, this is the kind ofstuff we have to consider.
A lot of times these thingsoccur through repetitive sin
patterns that are unrepented of.
That's really what rebellion is.
Like addiction.
Sadly, sometimes we experiencethis stuff because we are the
(25:43):
victim.
We aren't the perpetrator.
For example, rape or sexualabuse, many times, again, demons
can be transferred through sex,but they're transferred through
illicit, abusive sex.
And so a lot of times peoplewill pick them up in sadly,
abusive relationships.
Ivelisse Page (26:04):
Wow.
There's so much there.
And I've heard so many things inregard to that.
And even in our society, thereare so many things that are just
common stay.
And, and I know this is notgoing to be a very popular
comment, but for me personally,I know that God told me to stay
as far away because of myhistory, not to see how close I
get to line to see how far I canstay from it in things like
(26:25):
yoga.
And today for me personally, Iknow that it's a founded and
rooted in Hinduism wherepositions supposedly are
worshiping different gods in theHindu religion.
And here in the U.S.
I would say that many peoplefind it as stretching and it's a
form of exercise.
What do you say in regards tothat?
Dr. Rob Reimer (26:46):
Yeah.
So I would say truthfully,Ivelisse, I've never seen
someone pick up demons fromdoing yoga to Kim Walker Smith.
Okay.
Or something Christian like thatwas just exercise.
And I've done probably over 10,000 deliverances at this point
in my life, just because I'mdoing this stuff in conferences
all over the world.
So I've never actually seenthat.
(27:07):
However, I've seen and deliveredlots of people who've picked up
demons through yoga wherethere's chanting and all this
kind of stuff, and it's actuallya spiritual practice.
Just a really cool story, but Iwas in a conference one time
where the woman came in who wasa yogi master, and she had been
invited to come.
When she came, she was not abeliever.
(27:28):
She had a million followersdoing yoga with her on Instagram
or whatever, you know, socialmedia stuff.
Uh, she ended up coming to faithin the conference.
We ended up doing herdeliverance.
When I finished doing herdeliverance, she wept with me
and she said to me, I have beenleading people astray.
And I just held her by the handsand I said to her, yes, but now
(27:49):
you can lead people into thelight.
And you know, she sent me anemail recently.
She was in China leading yoga,but she no longer leads the
chanting and all the rest ofthis stuff.
And she gave her testimony to a100,000 Chinese non believers in
that setting.
(28:10):
So, I mean just a beautifulstory but yeah people can find
freedom from this stuff.
You got to be careful whatyou're dealing with for sure.
It's not magic.
It's actual the participationand things that would allow a
demon to enter.
You don't have to be afraid youhave to be wise.
Ivelisse Page (28:31):
That's a great way to say it.
And so, how do you break groundand get rid of these demonic
spirits?
Dr. Rob Reimer (28:36):
Make sure your sins are confessed, right?
So that's number one.
We have to do that.
We have to make sure the secretsare exposed.
As I said before, only two ways,natural or supernatural
knowledge.
Number three, then you have tomake sure all the curses are
broken.
If there's been any dedicationsand that kind of stuff.
Truthfully, a lot of the cursesare our own.
It's what we say to ourselves,about ourselves, stuff like, I
(28:59):
will never trust anyone again.
And that's a curse.
But if there's a demon thatsomehow or another was holding
on to that as ground, thenunless I'm willing to say, Lord,
that's not your plan for mylife, and I'm willing to repent,
then, and I'm willing to trustagain, and I'm willing to
forgive, unless I'm willing todo that, then the demon can
(29:21):
stay.
So you got to deal with thosekinds of things.
Now once you deal with that,then you really need someone to
come with you and just, youknow, work you through a process
to cast them out.
That's really important.
You notice when Jesus doesdeliverance ministry, he always
does it in public.
You notice when Jesus sends outthe disciples, he sends them out
two by two.
(29:41):
But you never see, you know,just Jesus randomly walking
through towns of pagans andkicking out demons in pagan
villages.
The only place Jesus doesdeliverance is in public, with
Jewish people, covenant people,or twice with Gentiles in
public, the Syrophoenician womanand her daughter, who's too
(30:03):
little, she isn't there, andJesus just makes a command and
she's freed, or the gadarenedemoniac, who's the most
demonized individual in Mark 5.
And in that case, both of themdisplay clear faith, right?
And so, what you see is Jesusdoing deliverance in public with
people who express faith.
That's what he does.
And for us, we need to go withpeople.
(30:27):
I think, personally, the reasonwhy Jesus doesn't do deliverance
with me privately is because ifhe did it on my own, with me
privately, and the reason why Iwould want to be delivered just
me and Jesus is because ofshame, right?
Oh my gosh, I got issues.
I don't want to know.
It's just me and you, Jesus.
Me and you, Jesus.
And Jesus is like, yeah, but ifI delivered you and it's just me
(30:48):
and you, then what's going toend up happening is you're still
going to have shame.
Because demons create immenseamounts of shame.
And so it would be better if Idelivered you with other people
so they know you and they loveyou and they accept you, and you
break shame.
Ivelisse Page (31:07):
Yes, that's so good.
So, how would someone go aboutfinding someone that knows about
how to do deliverance in ahealthy way, if someone is, you
know, wanting that?
Dr. Rob Reimer (31:20):
Yeah, so my book, Soul Care, gives a
methodology in the back, so youcan certainly look at that.
I can tell you stories abouthusbands and wives who've been
reading the book together, andas they got to that chapter, one
of them started manifesting,getting choked or something,
like a demon showed up, andthey're like, literally can't
speak and handing the husband orthe wife, the book.
And like, I need you to help mekind of thing.
(31:41):
And the person did theirdeliverance, helped them
through.
And then they came to a SoulCare Conference or whatever, and
I cleaned them up.
So you could certainly come to aSoul Care Conference, which I do
all over the world.
You could read the book SoulCare.
I can tell you I've beentraining, I train people in
deliverance.
I do a deliverance trainingworkshop a couple of times a
year, live stream so people canwatch it from anywhere.
(32:03):
They can find that on mywebsite, but at the end of the
day, you want to go to somebodythat has a little bit of at
least training, experience ifpossible, and training.
And then, so they know a littlebit what they're doing.
And then, listen, it's notmagic.
At the end of the day, Christ isin us and we have authority
because we're in Christ andChrist is in us.
(32:23):
There's no magic formulas.
It's really about Jesus.
I always say to people, but it'strue.
I have nothing, I don't have anymagic.
Jesus said, apart from me, youcould do nothing.
That's what I bring to everysingle encounter with every
single person I've ever prayedfor in my life.
I have nothing.
If Jesus shows up, you got agood shot.
The kingdom could come and yourlife could get better.
(32:45):
But if Jesus doesn't show up,nothing's going to happen.
You know, I don't have anymagic.
So it's all about Jesus, notabout me.
It's not about anybody elsedoing this stuff.
And, he trained his disciples todo this, but he was way better
at it than they were.
And yet he trusted them in thisministry.
And so, you know, he's trustedthe likes of people like us.
Ivelisse Page (33:05):
Is there anything that you would like to add that
I didn't get a chance to ask youas we close out our podcast
today about this topic?
Dr. Rob Reimer (33:12):
Ah, one of my favorite lines about this, so
the Western worldview with thisstuff has limited us.
So we're blinded to the realityof biblical experience.
For Jesus, deliverance waskingdom normal.
And any, any time deliveranceisn't normal to the church,
please understand that thechurch is no longer to Jesus, is
no longer normal to Jesus.
You know, this is who Jesus is.
(33:34):
This is what Jesus does.
We use this line in Hebrewsabout Jesus is the same
yesterday, today, and forever.
But if I'm honest, most of thechurch that I grew up in, the
real message I was hearing was,this is who Jesus was, this is
what Jesus did, not this is whoJesus is, and this is what Jesus
does.
And so I just want to say Jesusreally hasn't changed.
(33:57):
He's still doing deliverance.
And, um, if you're stuck withsome stuff that could be
demonic, there's real hope.
And I want to say it's cosmictreason for the church to
possess the keys of the kingdomand not to utilize them to set
the captives free.
Ivelisse Page (34:14):
Amen.
Well thank you Rob, once againfor joining us, and we look
forward to seeing you again nexttime.
Dr. Rob Reimer (34:21):
Blessings to you.
Ivelisse Page (34:29):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
discover our bonus content.
Thanks again and keep BelievingBig!
Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page, and thanks for listening
to the Believe Big Podcast, theshow where we take a deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:35):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page andit's an honor to be with you
today.
Today we have Dr.
Rob Reimer back on the show todiscuss a subject that I felt
really needed a full episode todiscuss, and that's a topic of
demonic deliverance.
There is an invisible war thatmany of us are completely
(00:56):
unaware of.
It is a spiritual war whereSatan and his demons are
actively trying to destroy everyarea of our lives.
How do we engage in this battleso that we can begin to live in
victory and freedom?
A little bit about Dr.
Reimer, he is the founder ofRenewal International, and he
assists pastors, leaders, andchurches globally by equipping
(01:18):
people to live in freedom inChrist and to walk in the
fullness and the power of theHoly Spirit.
He has served as a professor ofpastoral theology at Alliance
University in New York and isthe founding and lead pastor of
a church in New England, andalso the author of seven books.
Welcome Dr.
Reimer to the show.
Dr. Rob Reimer (01:37):
Thank you, Ivelisse.
Good to be back with you.
Ivelisse Page (01:39):
So, I know last time you shared about your
favorite health tip, about thephysical, the emotional, and the
spiritual.
Do you have a different one?
Dr. Rob Reimer (01:48):
Yeah, so I'll give you another one.
So one of my favorite healthtips is that it takes two
healthy people to have a healthyrelationship.
Scale of 1 to 10, if you're a 3in terms of your emotional,
spiritual health, the healthiestrelationship you'll ever have is
a 3.
And the only way you can getfrom a 3 to a 5 is you have to
change.
If you do what you've alwaysdone, you're going to get what
(02:09):
you've always got.
And so we have to become healthypeople to have healthy
interactions with others.
Ivelisse Page (02:15):
So good, so good, I love that.
So I would love to start byhaving you share the story of
how you first became aware ofdemonic influence in our world.
You mention in your book, SoulCare, that you grew up in a
church that really didn't talkabout it, even though you knew
the Bible talked about it andthat Jesus and his disciples did
deliverance.
(02:36):
And I'm sure there are many,many listening today that are in
the same boat.
So can you
Dr. Rob Reimer (02:40):
share?
Yeah, we grew up in a Biblebelieving evangelical church,
but you know, the only time youever heard anybody talk about
this stuff was either when theypreached from the Gospels, Jesus
doing deliverance, or maybe amissionary would come to town
from some exotic place likeThailand or Africa or something.
And you know, your worldview isvery seldom thought through.
(03:00):
It's just assimilated.
So, you know, you start tothink, well, I guess demons live
in Thailand and in Africa, butwe've apparently kicked them all
out of the good old U.
S.
of A, right?
They don't live here.
And so that would have been myworldview.
And I was in seminary.
I'm in my second year ofseminary.
I was talking to my then fiance,now my wife.
We were on, I was on a payphone.
(03:21):
I'm dating myself, Ivelisse, butI on a pay phone and I'm sitting
on this pay phone and there's akid pacing in front of the phone
and I thought, ah he's waitingto use the phone.
I said, Hey, I got to go.
And I hung up and I said, thephone's available.
And he goes, actually, I waswaiting to talk to you.
And I thought, well, all right,well, I didn't know the kid.
Oh, you were on a seminarycampus, but the college campus
(03:42):
shared space.
And so I figured he's probably acollege kid.
I didn't know lots of thecollege kids.
So I sit down to talk with himand I'm not three minutes into a
conversation with this kid.
And I got a thought that hasnever entered my mind.
Now at this point in my life,I'm 23 years old, right?
And I just thought this kid hasdemons.
And there's three reasons why Ithought it, right?
First, the first thing he toldme was he was hearing voices and
(04:05):
the voices were telling him tokill his father.
Oh, no, that seemed pretty darkto me, right?
Second thing, he's so confused.
He can't put in two to threesentences in a row that just
have logical sequential order.
And he just is super confused.
That could have been mentalillness.
Admittedly, at that point in mylife, I had very little
experience with mental illness,but it didn't feel like it.
(04:27):
It felt demonic.
And finally, periodically, we'rehaving this conversation.
He just leaned his head to theside and growled like, I don't
know.
That's felt a little dark to metoo.
Right.
And I think most people at thatpoint may have picked up on the
fact that this was demonic, butyou know, I think most people
would have tried to get out ofthe conversation as soon as they
(04:48):
could run for the hills.
But I actually believe what I'mabout to say.
I think your next level with Godlies beyond the boundaries of
your current experience, and theonly way you can get there is
risk more than you'recomfortable with.
If you do what you've alwaysdone, you will only ever see
what you can accomplish.
If you want to see what God canaccomplish, you've got to get
out into the spaces where youcan't do it.
(05:10):
And so, you know, I looked atthis kid, and I just said to
him, you know, Rich, have youever considered that your
problems could be demonic?
He looks at me and he goes, youthink I have demons, don't you?
I'm like, yeah, I really do.
And he's like, yeah, well, youknow, John Ellenberger told me I
had demons, but I didn't believehim.
Well, John was a missiologist.
He was a missions professor inthe school that I was attending.
(05:31):
John had been a missionary toIrian Jaya.
They had seen 6, 000 Donnypeople come to faith in one day.
These were animistic people.
They would worship these demonicentities and they would appear
to them out of the fireceremonies physically.
And John did deliverance.
Man, he'd done more deliveranceat that point than anybody I
knew.
I just looked at the kid andsaid, listen, if John
(05:53):
Ellenberger says you havedemons, then you have demons.
And I said, if you're willing,I'll get John and we'll have a
session with you and I'll, I'llbe there as support to you.
I'll pray.
I mean, John'll lead it, he'sgot experience and, uh, he was
willing and we tried, the kidhad some stuff he wouldn't
repent of.
So we couldn't actually get anydemons out.
(06:13):
And, and that was my firstexperience.
I was 23 years old and it openedmy eyes to the fact that, hey,
there's demons, even in the goodol U.
S.
of A.
Who knew?
Ivelisse Page (06:22):
You mentioned something really, I was going to
ask it later on in the podcast,but you said it couldn't be
deliverance because deliveredbecause he was unwilling to be
repentant.
What are some other factors thatprevent that deliverance?
Dr. Rob Reimer (06:36):
So there's really, there's three big areas
of access.
I like to use the word access,right, or ground.
You could use the word ground.
One is sin, and sin is reallysimple.
If you repent, then the sin iscovered by the blood of Christ
and the access is broken.
So that's that, right?
But if you're not willing torepent, then I always say to
(06:58):
people, you're a spiritual beingin a spiritual world.
You're always giving awayspiritual access.
You don't get to choose if yougive away access, you only get
to choose to whom you give awayaccess.
You pick up the tools of thekingdom of evil one, and you are
giving access to the evil one.
You pick up the tools of thekingdom of God, you're giving
access to, to Jesus.
(07:18):
So, if you have bitterness,which is part of what he had.
If you have bitterness in yoursoul, you are giving access to
satan through bitterness.
That's a tool of the enemy.
Jesus told you to love yourenemies, bless those who curse
you, forgive those who sinagainst you.
When you pick up those tools,now you're giving access to
Jesus.
Boom.
All ground is wiped out withthat, right?
(07:40):
But if you're not willing toforgive, not willing to repent,
then the ground is still there.
Second area besides sin would besecrets.
And I'm not talking about yoursecrets at this point.
These are things that happen tofamilies, and things that
families do, and they never talkabout.
But it's darkness.
Somebody's given Satan access inthe family, and no one's ever
(08:03):
addressed the access.
I'll just give you an example.
I was praying with a guy one dayin my doctoral class and I had
been doing deliverance with theclass in a, in a doctoral
setting.
And this guy comes up to meafterwards and he's like, Hey,
would you just pray with meindividually?
He goes, I just want to makesure I don't have anything.
And I said, sure.
(08:23):
So I go to lay my hand on him.
And as soon as I go to lay ahand on this guy, immediately I
know his mother was molested.
I don't know him.
I don't know anything about him.
But I just said to him, I said,do you know any story about your
mother being molested?
He's like, well, no.
And I'm like, I think so.
And I put my hand in the centerof his chest.
(08:45):
And I just said, blocking spiritcome forth.
Now a blocking spirit is aspirit that is associated with a
sexual abuse spirit, and theirwhole job is to keep you from
discovering the sexual abusespirits.
And they usually manifest insome way, mostly emotionally,
that's how they mostly manifest.
And so when I said blockingspirit come forth, his tongue
(09:07):
doubled in size.
And he couldn't speak.
He was mute, which I've neverseen that manifestation before
or since.
It was just so bizarre.
And I just looked at him.
I go, your mother was molested.
And he looks at me and he nodshis head.
And then I called the spiritforward.
His name was Secrecy.
And then when I called thatspirit forward, we got through
(09:28):
the sexual abuse spirit.
I just, when I finished with hisdeliverance, I said to him, go
ask your mother if she wasmolested.
He did.
He called her that night.
She had been molested.
She had never told a soul.
It had happened 40 years earlieror some odd amount, I don't
know, 50 years earlier, and shehad never told anybody.
And, you know, so sometimesthere's a secret like that in a
(09:50):
family where something got toenter in because of something
that happened or somethingsomeone did.
And now there's this spiritthat's there, but it's hiding
underneath the secrecy of thefamily.
And then the third area iscurses.
And you know, some curses arethings like, uh, ceremonies or
(10:12):
covenants through otherreligion, right?
So for example, all religion isceremonial and covenantial.
We have that as Christians.
We do baby dedications andbaptisms and communion and all
these kinds of things.
We anoint people with oil forhealing.
There's ceremonies, right?
We do covenants too.
We are in the new covenant ofJesus blood, et cetera.
(10:33):
Well, all the other religions doit too.
So they do baby dedications too,but a baby dedication done in
any other name, but the name ofJesus is a curse, even though
the parents mean it as ablessing.
Demons never bless.
They only curse.
They hate us.
So when you do a baby dedicationin another person's name, it
(10:55):
creates a curse.
And so, you know, that would bethe third kind of an example of
how they get access.
You have to discover thoseaccess points either through
natural knowledge orsupernatural knowledge through
the Holy Spirit, and then youhave to break them.
And then you can kick them out.
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(12:45):
care together.
Ivelisse Page (12:47):
Can you share with our listeners about the
discussion you had with a mediumthat lived in your town and
share what you told her aboutthe difference between good
spirits and bad spirits.
Dr. Rob Reimer (12:57):
Sure.
We had a lady when we wereliving in the Boston area who
was a well known medium actuallyhad written bestselling books in
the New York Times on mediums.
Anyhow, I just wanted to get toknow her.
I mean, she was really wellknown and, lots of people would
refer to her, go to her.
She would sell out showssometimes with hundreds of
people and stuff.
(13:18):
And she was authentic, spiritualpower, obviously dark side
power, but authentic spiritualpower.
She wasn't a charlatan.
And so she walked up to a ladyin my church one time and read
her mail.
Just like you were, you hadcancer.
You had a baby while you hadcancer.
You were in the hospital.
Your cancer's in remission andthe baby's fine.
(13:38):
Everything she said was spot on.
Never met the lady before.
And, just had that kind of stuffgoing on, you know?
And, anyhow, so one day I justasked her for a lunch.
And, I did it with a friend ofmine who was her pediatrician.
And I just said, Hey, let's dolunch with her.
And so he set up the lunch and Isat down with her and I said,
(13:59):
listen, you know, you're, you'reone of the top spiritual
influencers in our town.
And I really just wanted to hearyour story.
I just wanted to get to knowyou.
She's like.
All right.
And she was a little nervous,you know, as you might expect.
And, honestly, I think she's alittle nervous cause Christians
aren't always nice to her.
And, so I said, all right, well,I said, I just would like to get
to know you.
(14:19):
So, uh, tell me your story.
So she was Catholic.
She's telling me about all kindsof Catholics experiences and
upbringing all this kind ofstuff.
And then I she's also asyncretist, right?
She's bringing in all theseother different practices from
all these other differentreligions and she started
telling me some of thosestories.
She may be halfway through herstory or something and she looks
(14:39):
at me and she leans in real hardacross the table and she goes,
what do you think about all thisreally?
And I looked at her and I saidto her, I said, well, I said,
before I answer that, I said,can I tell you something that's
been on my heart since themoment I saw you?
She goes, yeah.
I said, I want you to know thatthe Father loves you.
(15:00):
And she burst into tears and Ijust reached out and took her
hand.
And I just said to her, I said,listen, I said, the Father's
been after you your whole life.
And I want you to know from themoment you walked into this we
were in a restaurant, I said, Icould feel the Father's tender
affections flowing towards you.
He loves you.
(15:20):
And, uh, you know, people allthe time get wigged out by this
stuff, but at the end of theday, these people that are
acting on these things aren'tour enemies, they're duped by
our enemy.
And you know, they're justpeople Jesus died for.
So they're not the enemy, wecan't treat them like the enemy.
And you know, Jesus isn't afraidof this stuff.
I always say to people, whenyou're nervous about something,
(15:41):
you're out of alignment withJesus, because Jesus isn't
nervous.
Jesus hasn't had a nervous dayin the last two millennia.
Today's not his day.
You're not his girl.
I'm not his guy.
So when I'm nervous, it'sbecause I've lost sight of
Jesus, right?
So anyways, these things don'tmake me nervous.
So I just sat there and listenedto her for a little more.
She told the rest of her storyand when she finished telling
her story, she went back to thequestion.
(16:02):
What do you think of all thisreally?
And what I said to her is Isaid, listen, I think you've had
a lot of authentic experience.
I think your experiences arereal.
I wouldn't question that.
I said, but I think there's adifference between the spiritual
world.
There are good spirits and thereare bad spirits.
And I said, you've had someexperiences with some good
spirits.
I mean, she told me stuff aboutthe Father, Son, and Holy
spirit.
(16:23):
And then she's had some badspiritual experiences.
And I said to her, I said, someof those guys that you've
interacted with are acting likegood guys, but they're not
really good guys.
And I said, they're deceiving.
And she looks at me and shegoes, do you think that's why my
children have apparitions in thenight and are terrified?
And I go, yeah, I do.
(16:44):
And she looked at me and shesaid, well, could you get rid of
those?
I said, yeah, absolutely.
But you'd have to stop being amedium.
Oh, I can't do that.
She said, that's where I make mymoney.
And I'm like, then you're goingto keep welcoming those spirits
back.
So your children are going tocontinue, unfortunately, to have
those apparitions.
Ivelisse Page (17:02):
Wow, I just love the way that you ask questions
in such a loving way, and Ithink that that's a lesson for
everyone listening, that whenyou're speaking to someone who
may not have a fullunderstanding of who Jesus is,
that we need to ask questions inlove, because as we know, love
does conquer all, and I justlove that story so much.
(17:23):
Can you explain the difference,and this is something that I'm
sure you get asked about a lot,the difference between demonic
possession and influence, andcan Christians be possessed?
Dr. Rob Reimer (17:35):
Alright, so first, I would never use the
word possessed.
The actual Greek word isdemonization.
So if I were actually going touse the word, I would just
transliterate it right acrossinto English and just call it
demonization.
And the word demonization isonly ever used in the New
Testament for an indwellingdemonic spirit.
And the only solution for thatis the Greek word ekballo, to
(18:00):
cast out.
That is because it's within.
So again, think of your soul fora second like a suitcase, right?
So here's the reality.
You put your faith in JesusChrist.
The Holy Spirit now lives withinyou.
You are in Christ.
Christ is in you, but you stillhave sin in the suitcase of your
soul.
That's a fact.
As a matter of fact, 1 Johnchapter 1 says, if you say you
don't have any sin, you're aliar and you call God a liar.
(18:22):
So we have sin.
Now hear me for a second.
We have everything we need inChrist to overcome sin, but we
still have sin.
That's the fact, right?
Putting our faith in Christdidn't eliminate our struggle
with sin.
It also is a fact that we stillhave human brokenness.
We have heartache, we havebrokenness, we have disfunction.
Putting our faith in Christdidn't overcome all of our
(18:44):
dysfunction, heartache andbrokenness.
Why do we think that putting ourfaith in Christ immediately
eliminates all of thesespiritual beings, these entities
that are out there.
That's not the way Jesus doesdiscipleship.
The way Jesus does discipleshipis that he puts his Holy Spirit
in us so that we can learn tolive in his victories, right?
(19:06):
So that's how we have to walkout of our sin and into his
holiness.
That's how we have to walk outof our brokenness and into his
wholeness.
And that's how we have to walkthrough demonic stuff that we
may have picked up in life andwalk into, you know, a sense of
cleansing from those things thatthey're kicked out.
Um, so what I would say is the,the analogy, if you think about
(19:29):
it this way for a second, twothings.
One, the suitcase belongs toGod, right?
So possession.
isn't really at stake.
The problem with the Englishtranslation demon possession is
that possession impliesownership.
And I want to say even a nonbeliever can't be possessed.
(19:50):
I would argue even a nonbeliever can't be possessed
because they're owned by God.
Listen, do you remember thestory where Jesus talks about
the guy, comes to him and says,you know, should we pay taxes?
Because the Pharisees are alltrying to get him, right?
And he says, give me a coin,whose image is on the coin?
Caesar's.
Oh, well then render to Caesarwhat is Caesar's, but give to
God what is God's.
Do you catch what he's saying?
(20:10):
He's saying, listen, that coinis stamped with the image of
Caesar, therefore it belongs toCaesar, but you, are stamped
with the image of God.
Therefore, you belong to God.
That is true for every singlehuman.
Non believer and believer alike,we belong to God.
So, possession is not a biblicalconcept.
I would say that's a terribleEnglish translation coming out
(20:31):
of a Western worldview thatdoesn't understand spiritual
things.
Okay?
So, what we're talking about,really, is can a demon indwell
someone?
Well, yeah, sure.
Of course.
Christian or not, sure.
Absolutely.
But what you're looking at isthe suitcase belongs to God.
I think of God's, sanctificationprocess, and this is the second
thing I was going to point out.
(20:52):
God's sanctification process,right?
How God cleans us up to make usholy, right?
So the Old Testament, when theclean comes in contact with the
unclean, the clean becomesdefiled.
In the New Testament, when theclean comes in contact with the
unclean, the unclean becomesclean.
(21:13):
Jesus touches the leper.
All the crowds are like, Youcan't do that, right?
But when Jesus touches theleper, the leper becomes clean.
That's what happens, right?
And you know what?
I think Jesus' strategy forcleaning us up was to throw His
Holy Spirit right into themiddle of our messy souls.
That's His strategy.
(21:34):
And he's like, we'll figure itout as you go along.
And, he doesn't make everythinggo away.
Doesn't make demons go away,heartache go away, dysfunction
go away, sin go away.
He puts his Holy Spirit in thereand journeys with us to victory.
Ivelisse Page (21:46):
Yeah.
So like demons or evil spirits,unclean spirits, you know, in
scripture, they're all reallyfallen angels.
And they seek to control peopleto wreak havoc in our lives,
enslave them to spiritualbondage.
So how do spirits actually enterand how does a person, get
demonized?
Dr. Rob Reimer (22:04):
So the main answer is sin.
Right?
That's the big answer.
They come in through sin.
So let me explain what I meanand what I don't mean.
So first, what I don't mean.
So sin, listen, they don't, theydon't come in because, you're
driving out of here today andyou do a universal sign of
(22:25):
disapproval for someone that'sjust cut you off.
And now all of a sudden, becauseyou've done that, you have
picked up a demon.
I don't mean that, right?
There are certain sins thatallow them to enter.
And there's a world ofdifference between, I'm
struggling to work out my faithwith fear and trembling, as the
scripture says, and I'm livingin rebellion.
(22:48):
Rebellion, the Old Testamentconversation between Samuel the
prophet and Saul the first king.
Rebellion is as the sin ofwitchcraft.
And when you're doing rebellion,you're giving full access to
Satan.
So if you have an area of yourlife where you're living in open
rebellion, yeah, you're going togive access.
(23:10):
Could there be demonization thatoccurs because of that?
Absolutely, 100%, for sure.
Okay?
Then there's certain types ofsin that allow demonization.
So, I mean, I'll give you acouple of examples, but, I mean,
obviously, occult activity.
If you're engaged in otherreligious practice, you're
engaged in worshiping otherentities, deities, you're gonna
(23:32):
pick up demons.
I mean, you're giving them fullaccess.
So, when you do that, thenthey're going to choose to
enter, right?
That's an obvious one, I wouldsay, but, I'll give you another
one.
Sex.
Listen, there's a lot of thingsthat I don't fully understand,
but I can tell you that I cansee both scripturally as well as
I can see experientially, andthat is sometimes demons can be
(23:54):
transferred through sex.
Now, won't happen in marriagebecause you're under the
covenant of God.
But when you step outside thecovenantal system of God, you
open yourself up to thatpossibility.
So for example, one of theclassic examples would be
prostitution.
I don't know anybody that'sengaged in prostitution that
doesn't pick up demons.
(24:14):
I've actually done deliveranceon hundreds of prostitutes.
Now, you know this, some of themdidn't choose prostitution.
They were trafficked, but at theend of the day, it doesn't
matter.
They were prostituted and as aresult, they picked up demons
and they need deliverance.
And I've done that hundreds oftimes with people.
Um, some of them are streetwalkers or some were high class
(24:35):
escorts, but I got to tell you,know what a lot of it was?
They weren't actually gettingmoney.
They were exchanging sex fordrugs or sex for a favor.
But at the end of the day,spiritually, that's
prostitution.
When that line is crossed,demons cross over and enter in.
So there's a transference thatcan occur.
The fact that they can enterthrough sexuality tells me that
(24:56):
the more sexual partners youhave outside of marriage, the
more vulnerable you are.
I would argue safe sex, youknow, one man, one woman,
monogamous relationship formarriage, for life, is not just
safe sex, it's safespirituality.
And this is why God has set itup.
So you start going into 200partners, the chances of you
picking up some sort of a sexualspirit in that process, I mean,
(25:21):
it's super high.
It's really, really likely,right?
So yeah, this is the kind ofstuff we have to consider.
A lot of times these thingsoccur through repetitive sin
patterns that are unrepented of.
That's really what rebellion is.
Like addiction.
Sadly, sometimes we experiencethis stuff because we are the
(25:43):
victim.
We aren't the perpetrator.
For example, rape or sexualabuse, many times, again, demons
can be transferred through sex,but they're transferred through
illicit, abusive sex.
And so a lot of times peoplewill pick them up in sadly,
abusive relationships.
Ivelisse Page (26:04):
Wow.
There's so much there.
And I've heard so many things inregard to that.
And even in our society, thereare so many things that are just
common stay.
And, and I know this is notgoing to be a very popular
comment, but for me personally,I know that God told me to stay
as far away because of myhistory, not to see how close I
get to line to see how far I canstay from it in things like
(26:25):
yoga.
And today for me personally, Iknow that it's a founded and
rooted in Hinduism wherepositions supposedly are
worshiping different gods in theHindu religion.
And here in the U.S.
I would say that many peoplefind it as stretching and it's a
form of exercise.
What do you say in regards tothat?
Dr. Rob Reimer (26:46):
Yeah.
So I would say truthfully,Ivelisse, I've never seen
someone pick up demons fromdoing yoga to Kim Walker Smith.
Okay.
Or something Christian like thatwas just exercise.
And I've done probably over 10,000 deliverances at this point
in my life, just because I'mdoing this stuff in conferences
all over the world.
So I've never actually seenthat.
(27:07):
However, I've seen and deliveredlots of people who've picked up
demons through yoga wherethere's chanting and all this
kind of stuff, and it's actuallya spiritual practice.
Just a really cool story, but Iwas in a conference one time
where the woman came in who wasa yogi master, and she had been
invited to come.
When she came, she was not abeliever.
(27:28):
She had a million followersdoing yoga with her on Instagram
or whatever, you know, socialmedia stuff.
Uh, she ended up coming to faithin the conference.
We ended up doing herdeliverance.
When I finished doing herdeliverance, she wept with me
and she said to me, I have beenleading people astray.
And I just held her by the handsand I said to her, yes, but now
(27:49):
you can lead people into thelight.
And you know, she sent me anemail recently.
She was in China leading yoga,but she no longer leads the
chanting and all the rest ofthis stuff.
And she gave her testimony to a100,000 Chinese non believers in
that setting.
(28:10):
So, I mean just a beautifulstory but yeah people can find
freedom from this stuff.
You got to be careful whatyou're dealing with for sure.
It's not magic.
It's actual the participationand things that would allow a
demon to enter.
You don't have to be afraid youhave to be wise.
Ivelisse Page (28:31):
That's a great way to say it.
And so, how do you break groundand get rid of these demonic
spirits?
Dr. Rob Reimer (28:36):
Make sure your sins are confessed, right?
So that's number one.
We have to do that.
We have to make sure the secretsare exposed.
As I said before, only two ways,natural or supernatural
knowledge.
Number three, then you have tomake sure all the curses are
broken.
If there's been any dedicationsand that kind of stuff.
Truthfully, a lot of the cursesare our own.
It's what we say to ourselves,about ourselves, stuff like, I
(28:59):
will never trust anyone again.
And that's a curse.
But if there's a demon thatsomehow or another was holding
on to that as ground, thenunless I'm willing to say, Lord,
that's not your plan for mylife, and I'm willing to repent,
then, and I'm willing to trustagain, and I'm willing to
forgive, unless I'm willing todo that, then the demon can
(29:21):
stay.
So you got to deal with thosekinds of things.
Now once you deal with that,then you really need someone to
come with you and just, youknow, work you through a process
to cast them out.
That's really important.
You notice when Jesus doesdeliverance ministry, he always
does it in public.
You notice when Jesus sends outthe disciples, he sends them out
two by two.
(29:41):
But you never see, you know,just Jesus randomly walking
through towns of pagans andkicking out demons in pagan
villages.
The only place Jesus doesdeliverance is in public, with
Jewish people, covenant people,or twice with Gentiles in
public, the Syrophoenician womanand her daughter, who's too
(30:03):
little, she isn't there, andJesus just makes a command and
she's freed, or the gadarenedemoniac, who's the most
demonized individual in Mark 5.
And in that case, both of themdisplay clear faith, right?
And so, what you see is Jesusdoing deliverance in public with
people who express faith.
That's what he does.
And for us, we need to go withpeople.
(30:27):
I think, personally, the reasonwhy Jesus doesn't do deliverance
with me privately is because ifhe did it on my own, with me
privately, and the reason why Iwould want to be delivered just
me and Jesus is because ofshame, right?
Oh my gosh, I got issues.
I don't want to know.
It's just me and you, Jesus.
Me and you, Jesus.
And Jesus is like, yeah, but ifI delivered you and it's just me
(30:48):
and you, then what's going toend up happening is you're still
going to have shame.
Because demons create immenseamounts of shame.
And so it would be better if Idelivered you with other people
so they know you and they loveyou and they accept you, and you
break shame.
Ivelisse Page (31:07):
Yes, that's so good.
So, how would someone go aboutfinding someone that knows about
how to do deliverance in ahealthy way, if someone is, you
know, wanting that?
Dr. Rob Reimer (31:20):
Yeah, so my book, Soul Care, gives a
methodology in the back, so youcan certainly look at that.
I can tell you stories abouthusbands and wives who've been
reading the book together, andas they got to that chapter, one
of them started manifesting,getting choked or something,
like a demon showed up, andthey're like, literally can't
speak and handing the husband orthe wife, the book.
And like, I need you to help mekind of thing.
(31:41):
And the person did theirdeliverance, helped them
through.
And then they came to a SoulCare Conference or whatever, and
I cleaned them up.
So you could certainly come to aSoul Care Conference, which I do
all over the world.
You could read the book SoulCare.
I can tell you I've beentraining, I train people in
deliverance.
I do a deliverance trainingworkshop a couple of times a
year, live stream so people canwatch it from anywhere.
(32:03):
They can find that on mywebsite, but at the end of the
day, you want to go to somebodythat has a little bit of at
least training, experience ifpossible, and training.
And then, so they know a littlebit what they're doing.
And then, listen, it's notmagic.
At the end of the day, Christ isin us and we have authority
because we're in Christ andChrist is in us.
(32:23):
There's no magic formulas.
It's really about Jesus.
I always say to people, but it'strue.
I have nothing, I don't have anymagic.
Jesus said, apart from me, youcould do nothing.
That's what I bring to everysingle encounter with every
single person I've ever prayedfor in my life.
I have nothing.
If Jesus shows up, you got agood shot.
The kingdom could come and yourlife could get better.
(32:45):
But if Jesus doesn't show up,nothing's going to happen.
You know, I don't have anymagic.
So it's all about Jesus, notabout me.
It's not about anybody elsedoing this stuff.
And, he trained his disciples todo this, but he was way better
at it than they were.
And yet he trusted them in thisministry.
And so, you know, he's trustedthe likes of people like us.
Ivelisse Page (33:05):
Is there anything that you would like to add that
I didn't get a chance to ask youas we close out our podcast
today about this topic?
Dr. Rob Reimer (33:12):
Ah, one of my favorite lines about this, so
the Western worldview with thisstuff has limited us.
So we're blinded to the realityof biblical experience.
For Jesus, deliverance waskingdom normal.
And any, any time deliveranceisn't normal to the church,
please understand that thechurch is no longer to Jesus, is
no longer normal to Jesus.
You know, this is who Jesus is.
(33:34):
This is what Jesus does.
We use this line in Hebrewsabout Jesus is the same
yesterday, today, and forever.
But if I'm honest, most of thechurch that I grew up in, the
real message I was hearing was,this is who Jesus was, this is
what Jesus did, not this is whoJesus is, and this is what Jesus
does.
And so I just want to say Jesusreally hasn't changed.
(33:57):
He's still doing deliverance.
And, um, if you're stuck withsome stuff that could be
demonic, there's real hope.
And I want to say it's cosmictreason for the church to
possess the keys of the kingdomand not to utilize them to set
the captives free.
Ivelisse Page (34:14):
Amen.
Well thank you Rob, once againfor joining us, and we look
forward to seeing you again nexttime.
Dr. Rob Reimer (34:21):
Blessings to you.
Ivelisse Page (34:29):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
discover our bonus content.
Thanks again and keep BelievingBig!
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