November 21, 2024 • 27 mins
Lisa Timmel's unexpected journey from the bustling world of theater to the serene gardens of Central Park offers a narrative rich with transformation and authenticity. As a renowned dramaturg, Lisa found the courage to pivot towards a life that truly resonated with her values and passions, illustrating a heartfelt quest for self-belonging. With Lisa, we uncover the layers of her spiritual journey, from her Catholic upbringing to her embrace of Judaism, driven by a desire to harmonize her inner and outer worlds. Her story reminds us of the universal search for fulfillment and the significance of being in the right place with the right people, much like the plants she nurtures.
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Rabbi Ben Spratt (00:04):
The human story is the search for
belonging.
From childhood to adulthood, injoy and in struggle, we all sit
in questions of how to makesense of it all.
What is our place?
Why are we here?
What is our story of searching?
Join us in conversation withcommunity members each sharing
some of their own story.
(00:27):
I am Ben Spratt and this isBelonging.
I am so excited and feel reallyhonored to get to be in
conversation with the amazingLisa Timmel.
There's a lot that I'll sayabout Lisa.
I will say that over my yearshere at Rot Shalom, she is one
(00:48):
of the wittiest, wisest and mostwonderful people to be learning
with and be journeying with.
And just a few words on Lisahere.
So Lisa and her husband Davidhave been members here for 25
years and their children, nickand Nora, grew up here at Rodeph
Sholom and are alumni of ourRodeph Sholom school.
(01:09):
Now we're off in the worldfrolicking and making mischief
wherever they go.
It's important for me to notethat Lisa is a renowned
dramaturg who spent the firstpart of her career with a whole
lot of different accolades.
The first part of her careerwith a whole lot of different
accolades Dramaturg, creativeproducer.
She was the director of varioustheater companies, professor,
(01:30):
so many new plays and musicalsfor Broadway and London and
off-Broadway and experimentaltheater and myriad other spaces,
and she has really beeninvolved in her career in
producing new American plays.
And then she made what is nowbeing phrased as an iconic pivot
and has become a native plantand restoration gardener in
(01:53):
Central Park's Northwoods, whereshe is responsible for 9.5
acres of meadow, grassland andwoodland environments and just
recently received her gardeningcertificate.
It is such a gift to be withyou, Lisa.
Lisa Timmel (02:07):
Oh, it's a real pleasure to be here with you,
Ben.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (02:10):
So this podcast is all around this same
prompt.
We'd love to hear about yoursearch for belonging.
Lisa Timmel (02:18):
Well, it's funny because at certain times in my
life when I was much younger,I'm sure I might have prided
myself on saying I don't need tobelong anywhere.
It wasn't until I was mucholder that I really started
thinking about notions ofbelonging.
You know, my life here atCongregation Rodeph Sholom was
pivotal in that.
You know, I married my husbandand I had grown up Catholic and
(02:42):
he had grown up Jewish and I didnot want to raise my children
Catholic, but I didn't want toraise them without a religion.
And David wanted Jewishchildren and I said that's fine,
but I'm not going to do thisfor you.
You have to do it.
It's very easy and traditional,for, you know, the woman takes
care of the religious educationof the children and I'd seen a
(03:03):
lot of that and I didn't wantanything to do with it.
It wasn't my religion and itwasn't my tradition.
But of course, I did spend alot of my time here at the
school and at the synagogue andI was very involved.
I took Hebrew lessons, mostlybecause I wanted to be able to
have conversation with themabout what they were going
(03:25):
through, and we chose this place, and one of the components, the
key moments of what led.
Our decision was when he calledand he said Hi, I'm David
Marcus, I'm interested injoining a synagogue, I'm part of
an interfaith couple, and thewoman on the other end of the
phone.
And the woman on the other endof the phone said that's awesome
.
And so he felt really our son'sbar mitzvah.
(03:48):
You know, by this point Istarted feeling just a little
(04:15):
weird about where I wasvis-a-vis my relationship to the
congregation, my relationshipto Judaism in general and
Jewishness.
So that did end up in aconversion process, but that's
not really where we started.
So that's sort of the firsthalf of it in terms of belonging
and journeys of belonging.
But belonging is a funny wordbecause it's both.
(04:37):
You know, you can be thesubject of belonging and the
object of belonging, and beingthe object of belonging is not
great.
And also there's the wordlongies is in there and it's
like.
You know, what do you have adesire for?
And obviously for obviousreasons, because I'm now a
gardener, I think a lot aboutenvironments in a way that I
(04:58):
didn't think about them before.
That dogwood you planted,that's not doing well, and the
magnolia you planted, that'sdoing well and they're kind.
You planted that's doing welland they're kind of in adjacent
environments and you're tryingto think about what's happening
around them and then you getdeeper into it so you know
what's happening in the soil andwhat do they need.
Everything that's growing inthe earth is part of this
(05:29):
network, right From microscopicorganisms all the way up to
giant redwoods, and whether theythrive or don't thrive is
really not a matter of what'sinside them.
It's right plant, right place,so it's a matter also I'd say,
at least 50% of what's aroundthem.
It's not enough to be a healthyplant, you gotta have
everything else.
And when I was going throughthe conversion process with you,
(05:51):
I remember at some point andalso just trying to explain it
to people who just thought well,that's weird.
Like who decides to believe inGod at the age of 35, 40?
At a certain point I wanted myinner life to match my outer
life.
Who you are and where youbelong is almost as much about
(06:13):
who is around you, how theyaffect your outlook on life, how
they affect just the health ofyour environment.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (06:20):
And I think that desire to have the inner
life and the outer life be inconversation with each other, to
feel like they are you know,using your analogy here part of
this larger ecosystem.
It requires a person to bewilling to plumb the depths a
little bit.
It requires a person to bewilling to plumb the depths a
little bit.
It requires a person to notjust look at the overall
surroundings and say, hey, isthis the right place for me?
(06:41):
But ultimately, what am Ibringing forward, what am I
adding into that ecosystem andalso, what are my needs?
Lisa Timmel (06:48):
And I work in a very special part of the park.
It's called the natural areas.
These are specific areas of thepark that are we're attempting
to do a kind of maintenance anda kind of encouragement of
native plant life.
That is as close as we couldget to the oak hickory forest
that Manhattan was at the timein the 17th century, and what
(07:12):
the purpose of this park, though, is, is actually to you know.
Yes, it was designed as arespite from the grid and a
place where you can go in nature, and the north end is designed
to look like the Adirondacks.
Fair enough, but I wish thatmore people had that sense of I
belong in this environment as anorganism, that it is good for
(07:33):
me to be next to a tree, that itis good for me to be next to a
tree, that it is good for me tobe in the shade.
It is.
The bird watchers are wonderfulbecause they're so respectful of
the space and they're soinvested in the health of the
space because it brings thebirds.
I think about that too, becauseit's just like it's not yours,
or I'll get into a habit ofsaying my meadow.
Someone was in my meadow.
It's not my meadow, right?
I was saying my meadow, someonewas in my meadow, it's not my
(07:54):
meadow and I think that in someways also what I was doing in
that process with you over three, three and a half years of
conversation, was figuring outyou know how to belong without
possessing.
I'm not just taking from thisplace for an education for my
children or for an ethnicreligious identity, because I
(08:14):
had feelings and opinions at theage of 24.
And you know that kind ofmutual responsibility so that it
becomes a feedback loop likeany good symbiotic system.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (08:29):
So to go in, weave those worlds together for
a second.
So the world of theater, theworld of, we'll call it nature,
even if I call it nature, andthen we'll call it religion.
We could add some other worlds,but let's take those three
worlds for a moment.
And you know, in thinking aboutthese aspects of yourself and
(08:51):
this desire of how, do we helpelevate in ourselves and in the
people around us an awarenessthat we are, whether we like it
or not, a part of an ecosystem?
What is the human experience orthe human mental move that you
think bars us from seeing whatalready is In the work you're
doing right now?
I can only imagine how readilyevident it is that, no matter
(09:13):
what mental moves we make, weare ultimately organisms in this
larger environment.
So what do you see happening inthe human psyche that blocks
that for many of us?
Lisa Timmel (09:23):
I think we want certainty and in our search for
certainty we lock down certaindefinitions.
I'm at the theater because, youknow, I want to be entertained
and we maybe don't think aboutthat.
We're at the theater because wewant to be with other people.
We're at the theater becausethere's some part of us that
maybe still believes a littlebit in magic, and it can become
(09:43):
very hard to see below thesurface, especially because in
theater, for example, we do alot of work to hide what is
underneath, and I believe I dobelieve that the good art grabs
us on the surface and is doingits magic underneath, whether we
know that it is or not.
We go to these places forcertainty and if they're doing
(10:06):
their job right, you're going tocome out asking why and not
knowing why, and thenunderstanding that your job is
to figure out what your why is.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (10:19):
So, if we can, I'd love to hear what your why
is.
Lisa Timmel (10:22):
My why?
Oh no, I want to be of use andI am skeptical of the efficacy
of human effort.
Being a dramaturg, you'resomeone who is a little behind
the scenes.
You're not even.
You're a lot behind the scenesand you're even sometimes just
at.
You're the person who reads 10pages from a young playwright
(10:43):
and you think, wow, thisperson's got something.
I don't know what that is.
And then you know, 10 yearslater you're finally producing a
show of theirs.
And I was always very skepticalof my own usefulness in that
process, but I trusted thepeople that were telling me that
it was useful.
I always did have this feelingof like, well, I'm just talking
(11:05):
to you about your play and Iguess that has a kind of use,
but I don't have any answers foryou and you have to go out and
find the answers.
And when my time in theater wasup and I knew it was up, one
day I was talking to a writerand I thought to myself I just
(11:27):
don't care if you fix this play.
And so you know, when I finallygot into, I started by
volunteering in Central Parkbefore I got this job.
And, um, I came home from myfirst day of volunteering and
David said to me I haven't seenyou smile like that in a really
long time and I don't think heeven realized like how much,
(11:49):
like losing you know, I guess ina sense losing, losing my
religion in terms of theater,was so painful but I had to face
up to it would have been veryeasy to keep doing what I was
doing, even though I had stoppedcaring and I just wasn't
prepared to do that.
(12:10):
So I think, in a veryroundabout way, my why really
was about living withauthenticity and in a kind of
truth.
When it came to being in thegarden, it was again just, I
(12:30):
call it the photo negative of mytheater life, because my
theater life was indoors,windowless rooms and gardening
and being in the park.
I am outdoors all the time.
I think that's one of thethings people get very surprised
about and there are no windows,there are no doors and
everything is dirty.
My fingernail is always dirty.
(12:53):
Now it's a sad, sad situation.
But I care, I care deeply aboutwhat happens to you know,
preserving what little we haveleft ourselves of our, of this
Eden, that that that was, thatwas here, and you know, in the
(13:16):
17th century that we paved over,and every day someone walks
past us and says thank you forwhat you do for this park, thank
you for what you do for thebirds.
We don't plant jewelweed.
It's a weed, it's a nativeplant and the birders every fall
are like I love how muchjewelweed you're planting.
And I'm like yes, you'rewelcome, we love the jewel weed
(13:39):
too.
Life and in gardening, you'remaking your corner of the world
just a little better.
You should be.
If you're doing it right.
(13:59):
Right, you should be making ita more pleasant place to be for
the one who made this iconicpivot.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (14:11):
And you know you mentioned to me before how
now you wear a uniform where youkind of like just blend in and
you know people don'tnecessarily notice you because
you're just a part of thebackdrop of the park.
And I'm wondering if you canunpack some of the
countercultural moves, notbecause you're trying to be
countercultural as much as Ifeel like you're pointing
towards something that most ofus are searching for.
(14:32):
Most of us feel in some layerof our life like there's
something not right andsometimes our response is either
to withdraw, run away or try tojust, you know, become the
despot, the, you know, thepuppet master of some little
fiefdom.
And you did somethingcountercultural as you decided
to spin in a slightly differentdirection.
And I'm just wondering if youcan unpack a little of that for
(14:54):
those of us who are stumblingand struggling and trying to
imagine okay, I've been doingthe same thing on repeat over
and over, haven't quite gottenthere what might be the move we
can consider.
Lisa Timmel (15:06):
I mean, first of all, who am I if I'm not myself,
right?
And so the first thing that hasto happen is that you know, the
first thing, the first person,the first community that you
have to belong to is yourself,right?
And that's and that's a lot ofwhat your early 20.
I'm watching my kids go throughtheir early 20s and figuring
out who they want to be and whatkind of people they want to be
(15:28):
around and how they want to movethrough the world, you know.
And then you have your searchfor partnership, right, you know
.
And then it's like what otherperson, you know, can I, can I
belong to?
And you know, do I deserve love, can I give love?
And?
And then that sort of sort ofgrows exponentially.
And then, yes, you get into thepattern, right?
(15:49):
You asked me earlier aboutweaving, and it's the one thing
that drives a lot of people outof this kind of job is because
you know, you weed the Japaneseknotweed and six weeks later
it's right back where it waswhen you weeded it, and then you
weed it again and you can'tkill this plant.
So you just have to acknowledgeall you're doing is making room
for the plants that you do wantto be there to get some
(16:12):
sunlight.
If you are only focused on Ihave to get the task done and
not on why am I doing the task?
This task is useless.
I've done it a million.
We have this with ourvolunteers a lot.
Do you think it does any goodto keep pulling the mugwort?
Yes, yes, we do.
You can't see it because we'vebeen doing this for 15 years and
(16:36):
you came in two years ago, butwe've made a lot of progress.
We have a lot of progress to go.
So I think that, again, youknow it's purpose and
understanding why you are, youknow on this hammer trail,
understanding why you are, youknow on this hammer trail and
(16:56):
then, when you come up againstthat moment where you realize
you don't have purpose in thisanymore, that it has no meaning
for you.
Or you know, even in my, mycareer transition and you know,
the pivot didn't become iconicuntil I said I'm absolutely
looking in the wrong direction.
I kept looking to things thatwere adjacent to what I already
knew and I, you know, I justdidn't.
(17:16):
I just wanted to do somethingdifferent, you know, and I was
just volunteering.
And if I hadn't been set tovolunteer in a native plant
meadow.
Would I have gotten bitten thishard?
I don't know when.
You know that that originalgardener I worked with, you know
she took a job uh, you knowWest Virginia and she left and
(17:37):
on her last day I hugged her andI said you know you changed my
life and she's like you have toleave before I start crying.
And she was very sweet and andit's interesting because I've
had a lot of people tell me thatI changed their life you called
me and invited me into thiswriting group.
You changed my life and ofcourse, I wasn't setting out to
change anybody's life, I wasjust doing my job the best way
(18:01):
that I knew how.
And so I guess you know it's,and you know I'm a hypocrite
because I had no patience withmyself during this whole process
.
But it's to have patience withyourself and to understand that
you might not know.
You don't know You're going toplant those ferns but you don't
(18:23):
know, are the squirrels going todig them up?
Maybe You're going to.
You know, feel useless pullingthis plant, but you know, are
the things that you planted toreplace them going to take root?
Sometimes they really do andthey do it beautifully.
Sometimes they do it too welland you're like, oh, even though
this plant is technically anative, we got to get rid of it,
(18:43):
like you know.
So you know.
So when you see that ironweedgrowing out of a crack in the
cement, you should just leave it.
Just leave it, let it grow.
Let some insect, some beetle,come along and feed on it or
pollinate on it and see whatgrows again next year.
That plant doesn't.
(19:05):
It's growing in a crack in thesidewalk and it's doing great
Like.
Leave it alone, let it grow.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (19:12):
It's interesting to then kind of play
that out into the humanexperience and you think about,
I think in my life of all thepeople who probably rightly,
were trying to prune me or pluckme or move me or tell me the
way I'm supposed to be, andultimately, you know, at some
point it comes to the place ofsome of the most powerful people
in my life.
The most impactful people in mylife were some of the people
(19:35):
who simply invited me to imaginemaybe you're right in the right
place where you need to be, andnow you need to figure out what
you're going to do with thegrowth opportunity that's in
front of you.
And I think there is somethingwise.
And as parents, I think we sitin this all the time.
But I was thinking thinking asyou were talking, Lisa, about
the Joseph Campbell notion thatyou know, the treasure we seek
(19:57):
is always in the cave we're tooafraid to enter and sometimes
along our lives we get peoplewho are willing to invite us
into the caves, this idea thatTorah is always given in the
wilderness.
You know, the thing that we wantin life for fulfillment is
usually not in continuing torinse and repeat what we did
before, because the road'salways moving itself and the
(20:17):
world is always changing and wecan do our best to cement over
it, but nature will always finda way through the cracks.
And I think there's somethinginteresting because in your
story is the embrace of the lackof control, but almost the
magical quality that comes withthat is, the universe can be
(20:38):
seen as overwhelming and scary,but there's something majestic
in that.
You know it's like how does anironweed grow in the midst of a
you know Manhattan sidewalk?
I mean, it really is wonderfulwhen you pause for a moment and
I feel like kids are wired tofeel that awe and wonder.
And for us we just walk offuntil we find the curated
(21:00):
experience that we think is realnature.
And I'm wondering, as you havejourneyed into the wilderness of
Central Park, what have youdiscovered about yourself?
Lisa Timmel (21:09):
So I think what I have learned about myself is a
little bit that I was rightabout myself, that I was right
about what I needed, that therewas life after theater.
I suspected it all along, but Ilearned that you know, when you
(21:34):
make a change like that, thereare many people who fall by the
wayside and I thought I would beokay with it.
And I was okay with it, notthat I don't miss some of the
people that have fallen by thewayside, but my, I understand,
um, how hard it is to step outof again, step out of your
(22:01):
environment.
You get rooted where you are.
Not to really belabor thesegardening metaphors, but you
know, I kind of always thoughtthat I was a little bit
courageous.
You know, my mother would havesaid, yeah, you always did think
things would work out, and shedidn't mean it as a compliment,
you know.
I think she just thought it wasblind optimism.
I would say it might be the mostjoyful experience wandering in
(22:25):
the woods of Central Park, evenin the ways that it is very
difficult.
You know, I have to confront alot of things up there that are
ugly, about the way city lifeaffects people and the way that
the Northwood becomes a refugefor people who have nowhere else
to go.
It's one of the ways in whichthis park, weirdly enough,
(22:49):
supports the people of New Yorkthat there is a place for some
people who need it to hide.
Um, and I think I'm surprised alittle bit about my ability to
have the amount of empathy, uhand just and sorrow that I have
(23:10):
for some of you know some of thepeople that are living up there
, and the reality is we can'tlet them stay.
I am, luckily, not the personwho has to tell them to go and I
always make sure to say goodmorning so they know that I'm
there.
I'm there doing my job.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (23:26):
I'm not going to bother them, I'm there doing
my job, I'm not going to botherthem.
I love looking at the step intoCentral Park as a way of seeing
not only ourselves but also,again, the larger breadth of
humanity and maybe in layers ofthis city and the ecosystem of
the city that we don't alwayswant to acknowledge.
I was thinking about Robin HallTimmerer's Braiding Sweetgrass.
(23:54):
Some of what came out of thebook and I feel like that has
been for me also a little bit ofa story in my own life from
being a science geek andbecoming a rabbi is, as we start
to plumb the depths of a field,we start to realize that once
you've done enough learning andstudying, you start to realize
just how organic, how almostchaotic, but also how cosmically
beautiful it all is.
(24:15):
And it in some ways inspiresthis feeling of a connected
understanding that you know Ican't look at.
You know a mushroom asdisconnected from you.
Know an aspen tree I can't lookat.
You know my own human being asseparate from you.
That ultimately these everyinteractions show us or point us
(24:35):
towards something deeper thatwe don't always want to grasp
hold of because it'soverwhelming, it's, it's scary,
it's um, in some ways it itmakes us feel so, as you said
before, almost likeinsignificant in a universe
where we want desperately tofind our belonging by knowing
that we're significant is.
I want to imagine for a momentthat you get to meld together
(25:01):
all the chapters of Lisa Timmel,all the different circles in
which you have places ofbelonging or lost places of
belonging.
Think about, as you know,having David and Nick and Nora
and all of your friends and allthe people in your life.
If we're going to collapse, allof these circles together and
you were going to lift up whatis a bit of the spark that you
(25:24):
believe you bring into theecosystem, what is it?
Lisa Timmel (25:29):
You know, one of the things that we did a lot
pre-COVID and have done a littlebit since is, you know, we
would have these spaghettidinners on Friday nights and we
have a list that's like 175people and they all get the
invite and it's kind of like amad scramble to get a seat at
the table and then we do alittle.
If you get a seat, then youcan't come back for a little
(25:51):
while to make room and there area lot of people on that list
that have never come andoccasionally I'll email them and
say, would you like to drop offthe spaghetti list?
And they say no, I want to stayon the list.
I like getting the emails and Iknow they're never going to
come.
One of the people on the listjust wanted Tony.
He is never going to come tospaghetti night but, like, here
(26:12):
is a place where you can comeand you have a meal and someone
will listen to your story andthen you get to go back out into
the world and I think that issomething that I really learned
from theater and it was thetheater training, the really
listening with your whole bodyand being present and just
(26:34):
noticing and then thinking aboutwhat you're going to do next.
And that has and it's reallyserved me very well, because
I'll be like I'll come in andI'll say, hey, the New Jersey
tea is blooming, and you know,the assistant manager will fall
over and be like I can't get tothe end.
I was like, oh, I'm so excitedthat you know yes, you know, I
am noticing things.
That is my job is to look andto notice and to see and then to
(26:59):
take action.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (27:10):
Incredible.
So much wisdom for us to begleaning, and I'm so grateful
that you were willing to bring alittle bit of story For those
of you who want some morewitticism, for those of you who
want to be more inspired by theiconic pivot, please seek out
the amazing Lisa Timmel.
Such a gift to be with you,Lisa, thank you.
Lisa Timmel (27:22):
Thank you, Rabbi.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (27:25):
Thank you for joining us and listening to this
story of belonging.
Stay connected with us onFacebook and Instagram.
You can find me on Twitter@Ben H Spratt.
For more information about CRS,visit us online at rodephsholom
.
org.
The human story is the search for
belonging.
From childhood to adulthood, injoy and in struggle, we all sit
in questions of how to makesense of it all.
What is our place?
Why are we here?
What is our story of searching?
Join us in conversation withcommunity members each sharing
some of their own story.
(00:27):
I am Ben Spratt and this isBelonging.
I am so excited and feel reallyhonored to get to be in
conversation with the amazingLisa Timmel.
There's a lot that I'll sayabout Lisa.
I will say that over my yearshere at Rot Shalom, she is one
(00:48):
of the wittiest, wisest and mostwonderful people to be learning
with and be journeying with.
And just a few words on Lisahere.
So Lisa and her husband Davidhave been members here for 25
years and their children, nickand Nora, grew up here at Rodeph
Sholom and are alumni of ourRodeph Sholom school.
(01:09):
Now we're off in the worldfrolicking and making mischief
wherever they go.
It's important for me to notethat Lisa is a renowned
dramaturg who spent the firstpart of her career with a whole
lot of different accolades.
The first part of her careerwith a whole lot of different
accolades Dramaturg, creativeproducer.
She was the director of varioustheater companies, professor,
(01:30):
so many new plays and musicalsfor Broadway and London and
off-Broadway and experimentaltheater and myriad other spaces,
and she has really beeninvolved in her career in
producing new American plays.
And then she made what is nowbeing phrased as an iconic pivot
and has become a native plantand restoration gardener in
(01:53):
Central Park's Northwoods, whereshe is responsible for 9.5
acres of meadow, grassland andwoodland environments and just
recently received her gardeningcertificate.
It is such a gift to be withyou, Lisa.
Lisa Timmel (02:07):
Oh, it's a real pleasure to be here with you,
Ben.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (02:10):
So this podcast is all around this same
prompt.
We'd love to hear about yoursearch for belonging.
Lisa Timmel (02:18):
Well, it's funny because at certain times in my
life when I was much younger,I'm sure I might have prided
myself on saying I don't need tobelong anywhere.
It wasn't until I was mucholder that I really started
thinking about notions ofbelonging.
You know, my life here atCongregation Rodeph Sholom was
pivotal in that.
You know, I married my husbandand I had grown up Catholic and
(02:42):
he had grown up Jewish and I didnot want to raise my children
Catholic, but I didn't want toraise them without a religion.
And David wanted Jewishchildren and I said that's fine,
but I'm not going to do thisfor you.
You have to do it.
It's very easy and traditional,for, you know, the woman takes
care of the religious educationof the children and I'd seen a
(03:03):
lot of that and I didn't wantanything to do with it.
It wasn't my religion and itwasn't my tradition.
But of course, I did spend alot of my time here at the
school and at the synagogue andI was very involved.
I took Hebrew lessons, mostlybecause I wanted to be able to
have conversation with themabout what they were going
(03:25):
through, and we chose this place, and one of the components, the
key moments of what led.
Our decision was when he calledand he said Hi, I'm David
Marcus, I'm interested injoining a synagogue, I'm part of
an interfaith couple, and thewoman on the other end of the
phone.
And the woman on the other endof the phone said that's awesome
.
And so he felt really our son'sbar mitzvah.
(03:48):
You know, by this point Istarted feeling just a little
(04:15):
weird about where I wasvis-a-vis my relationship to the
congregation, my relationshipto Judaism in general and
Jewishness.
So that did end up in aconversion process, but that's
not really where we started.
So that's sort of the firsthalf of it in terms of belonging
and journeys of belonging.
But belonging is a funny wordbecause it's both.
(04:37):
You know, you can be thesubject of belonging and the
object of belonging, and beingthe object of belonging is not
great.
And also there's the wordlongies is in there and it's
like.
You know, what do you have adesire for?
And obviously for obviousreasons, because I'm now a
gardener, I think a lot aboutenvironments in a way that I
(04:58):
didn't think about them before.
That dogwood you planted,that's not doing well, and the
magnolia you planted, that'sdoing well and they're kind.
You planted that's doing welland they're kind of in adjacent
environments and you're tryingto think about what's happening
around them and then you getdeeper into it so you know
what's happening in the soil andwhat do they need.
Everything that's growing inthe earth is part of this
(05:29):
network, right From microscopicorganisms all the way up to
giant redwoods, and whether theythrive or don't thrive is
really not a matter of what'sinside them.
It's right plant, right place,so it's a matter also I'd say,
at least 50% of what's aroundthem.
It's not enough to be a healthyplant, you gotta have
everything else.
And when I was going throughthe conversion process with you,
(05:51):
I remember at some point andalso just trying to explain it
to people who just thought well,that's weird.
Like who decides to believe inGod at the age of 35, 40?
At a certain point I wanted myinner life to match my outer
life.
Who you are and where youbelong is almost as much about
(06:13):
who is around you, how theyaffect your outlook on life, how
they affect just the health ofyour environment.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (06:20):
And I think that desire to have the inner
life and the outer life be inconversation with each other, to
feel like they are you know,using your analogy here part of
this larger ecosystem.
It requires a person to bewilling to plumb the depths a
little bit.
It requires a person to bewilling to plumb the depths a
little bit.
It requires a person to notjust look at the overall
surroundings and say, hey, isthis the right place for me?
(06:41):
But ultimately, what am Ibringing forward, what am I
adding into that ecosystem andalso, what are my needs?
Lisa Timmel (06:48):
And I work in a very special part of the park.
It's called the natural areas.
These are specific areas of thepark that are we're attempting
to do a kind of maintenance anda kind of encouragement of
native plant life.
That is as close as we couldget to the oak hickory forest
that Manhattan was at the timein the 17th century, and what
(07:12):
the purpose of this park, though, is, is actually to you know.
Yes, it was designed as arespite from the grid and a
place where you can go in nature, and the north end is designed
to look like the Adirondacks.
Fair enough, but I wish thatmore people had that sense of I
belong in this environment as anorganism, that it is good for
(07:33):
me to be next to a tree, that itis good for me to be next to a
tree, that it is good for me tobe in the shade.
It is.
The bird watchers are wonderfulbecause they're so respectful of
the space and they're soinvested in the health of the
space because it brings thebirds.
I think about that too, becauseit's just like it's not yours,
or I'll get into a habit ofsaying my meadow.
Someone was in my meadow.
It's not my meadow, right?
I was saying my meadow, someonewas in my meadow, it's not my
(07:54):
meadow and I think that in someways also what I was doing in
that process with you over three, three and a half years of
conversation, was figuring outyou know how to belong without
possessing.
I'm not just taking from thisplace for an education for my
children or for an ethnicreligious identity, because I
(08:14):
had feelings and opinions at theage of 24.
And you know that kind ofmutual responsibility so that it
becomes a feedback loop likeany good symbiotic system.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (08:29):
So to go in, weave those worlds together for
a second.
So the world of theater, theworld of, we'll call it nature,
even if I call it nature, andthen we'll call it religion.
We could add some other worlds,but let's take those three
worlds for a moment.
And you know, in thinking aboutthese aspects of yourself and
(08:51):
this desire of how, do we helpelevate in ourselves and in the
people around us an awarenessthat we are, whether we like it
or not, a part of an ecosystem?
What is the human experience orthe human mental move that you
think bars us from seeing whatalready is In the work you're
doing right now?
I can only imagine how readilyevident it is that, no matter
(09:13):
what mental moves we make, weare ultimately organisms in this
larger environment.
So what do you see happening inthe human psyche that blocks
that for many of us?
Lisa Timmel (09:23):
I think we want certainty and in our search for
certainty we lock down certaindefinitions.
I'm at the theater because, youknow, I want to be entertained
and we maybe don't think aboutthat.
We're at the theater because wewant to be with other people.
We're at the theater becausethere's some part of us that
maybe still believes a littlebit in magic, and it can become
(09:43):
very hard to see below thesurface, especially because in
theater, for example, we do alot of work to hide what is
underneath, and I believe I dobelieve that the good art grabs
us on the surface and is doingits magic underneath, whether we
know that it is or not.
We go to these places forcertainty and if they're doing
(10:06):
their job right, you're going tocome out asking why and not
knowing why, and thenunderstanding that your job is
to figure out what your why is.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (10:19):
So, if we can, I'd love to hear what your why
is.
Lisa Timmel (10:22):
My why?
Oh no, I want to be of use andI am skeptical of the efficacy
of human effort.
Being a dramaturg, you'resomeone who is a little behind
the scenes.
You're not even.
You're a lot behind the scenesand you're even sometimes just
at.
You're the person who reads 10pages from a young playwright
(10:43):
and you think, wow, thisperson's got something.
I don't know what that is.
And then you know, 10 yearslater you're finally producing a
show of theirs.
And I was always very skepticalof my own usefulness in that
process, but I trusted thepeople that were telling me that
it was useful.
I always did have this feelingof like, well, I'm just talking
(11:05):
to you about your play and Iguess that has a kind of use,
but I don't have any answers foryou and you have to go out and
find the answers.
And when my time in theater wasup and I knew it was up, one
day I was talking to a writerand I thought to myself I just
(11:27):
don't care if you fix this play.
And so you know, when I finallygot into, I started by
volunteering in Central Parkbefore I got this job.
And, um, I came home from myfirst day of volunteering and
David said to me I haven't seenyou smile like that in a really
long time and I don't think heeven realized like how much,
(11:49):
like losing you know, I guess ina sense losing, losing my
religion in terms of theater,was so painful but I had to face
up to it would have been veryeasy to keep doing what I was
doing, even though I had stoppedcaring and I just wasn't
prepared to do that.
(12:10):
So I think, in a veryroundabout way, my why really
was about living withauthenticity and in a kind of
truth.
When it came to being in thegarden, it was again just, I
(12:30):
call it the photo negative of mytheater life, because my
theater life was indoors,windowless rooms and gardening
and being in the park.
I am outdoors all the time.
I think that's one of thethings people get very surprised
about and there are no windows,there are no doors and
everything is dirty.
My fingernail is always dirty.
(12:53):
Now it's a sad, sad situation.
But I care, I care deeply aboutwhat happens to you know,
preserving what little we haveleft ourselves of our, of this
Eden, that that that was, thatwas here, and you know, in the
(13:16):
17th century that we paved over,and every day someone walks
past us and says thank you forwhat you do for this park, thank
you for what you do for thebirds.
We don't plant jewelweed.
It's a weed, it's a nativeplant and the birders every fall
are like I love how muchjewelweed you're planting.
And I'm like yes, you'rewelcome, we love the jewel weed
(13:39):
too.
Life and in gardening, you'remaking your corner of the world
just a little better.
You should be.
If you're doing it right.
(13:59):
Right, you should be making ita more pleasant place to be for
the one who made this iconicpivot.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (14:11):
And you know you mentioned to me before how
now you wear a uniform where youkind of like just blend in and
you know people don'tnecessarily notice you because
you're just a part of thebackdrop of the park.
And I'm wondering if you canunpack some of the
countercultural moves, notbecause you're trying to be
countercultural as much as Ifeel like you're pointing
towards something that most ofus are searching for.
(14:32):
Most of us feel in some layerof our life like there's
something not right andsometimes our response is either
to withdraw, run away or try tojust, you know, become the
despot, the, you know, thepuppet master of some little
fiefdom.
And you did somethingcountercultural as you decided
to spin in a slightly differentdirection.
And I'm just wondering if youcan unpack a little of that for
(14:54):
those of us who are stumblingand struggling and trying to
imagine okay, I've been doingthe same thing on repeat over
and over, haven't quite gottenthere what might be the move we
can consider.
Lisa Timmel (15:06):
I mean, first of all, who am I if I'm not myself,
right?
And so the first thing that hasto happen is that you know, the
first thing, the first person,the first community that you
have to belong to is yourself,right?
And that's and that's a lot ofwhat your early 20.
I'm watching my kids go throughtheir early 20s and figuring
out who they want to be and whatkind of people they want to be
(15:28):
around and how they want to movethrough the world, you know.
And then you have your searchfor partnership, right, you know
.
And then it's like what otherperson, you know, can I, can I
belong to?
And you know, do I deserve love, can I give love?
And?
And then that sort of sort ofgrows exponentially.
And then, yes, you get into thepattern, right?
(15:49):
You asked me earlier aboutweaving, and it's the one thing
that drives a lot of people outof this kind of job is because
you know, you weed the Japaneseknotweed and six weeks later
it's right back where it waswhen you weeded it, and then you
weed it again and you can'tkill this plant.
So you just have to acknowledgeall you're doing is making room
for the plants that you do wantto be there to get some
(16:12):
sunlight.
If you are only focused on Ihave to get the task done and
not on why am I doing the task?
This task is useless.
I've done it a million.
We have this with ourvolunteers a lot.
Do you think it does any goodto keep pulling the mugwort?
Yes, yes, we do.
You can't see it because we'vebeen doing this for 15 years and
(16:36):
you came in two years ago, butwe've made a lot of progress.
We have a lot of progress to go.
So I think that, again, youknow it's purpose and
understanding why you are, youknow on this hammer trail,
understanding why you are, youknow on this hammer trail and
(16:56):
then, when you come up againstthat moment where you realize
you don't have purpose in thisanymore, that it has no meaning
for you.
Or you know, even in my, mycareer transition and you know,
the pivot didn't become iconicuntil I said I'm absolutely
looking in the wrong direction.
I kept looking to things thatwere adjacent to what I already
knew and I, you know, I justdidn't.
(17:16):
I just wanted to do somethingdifferent, you know, and I was
just volunteering.
And if I hadn't been set tovolunteer in a native plant
meadow.
Would I have gotten bitten thishard?
I don't know when.
You know that that originalgardener I worked with, you know
she took a job uh, you knowWest Virginia and she left and
(17:37):
on her last day I hugged her andI said you know you changed my
life and she's like you have toleave before I start crying.
And she was very sweet and andit's interesting because I've
had a lot of people tell me thatI changed their life you called
me and invited me into thiswriting group.
You changed my life and ofcourse, I wasn't setting out to
change anybody's life, I wasjust doing my job the best way
(18:01):
that I knew how.
And so I guess you know it's,and you know I'm a hypocrite
because I had no patience withmyself during this whole process
.
But it's to have patience withyourself and to understand that
you might not know.
You don't know You're going toplant those ferns but you don't
(18:23):
know, are the squirrels going todig them up?
Maybe You're going to.
You know, feel useless pullingthis plant, but you know, are
the things that you planted toreplace them going to take root?
Sometimes they really do andthey do it beautifully.
Sometimes they do it too welland you're like, oh, even though
this plant is technically anative, we got to get rid of it,
(18:43):
like you know.
So you know.
So when you see that ironweedgrowing out of a crack in the
cement, you should just leave it.
Just leave it, let it grow.
Let some insect, some beetle,come along and feed on it or
pollinate on it and see whatgrows again next year.
That plant doesn't.
(19:05):
It's growing in a crack in thesidewalk and it's doing great
Like.
Leave it alone, let it grow.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (19:12):
It's interesting to then kind of play
that out into the humanexperience and you think about,
I think in my life of all thepeople who probably rightly,
were trying to prune me or pluckme or move me or tell me the
way I'm supposed to be, andultimately, you know, at some
point it comes to the place ofsome of the most powerful people
in my life.
The most impactful people in mylife were some of the people
(19:35):
who simply invited me to imaginemaybe you're right in the right
place where you need to be, andnow you need to figure out what
you're going to do with thegrowth opportunity that's in
front of you.
And I think there is somethingwise.
And as parents, I think we sitin this all the time.
But I was thinking thinking asyou were talking, Lisa, about
the Joseph Campbell notion thatyou know, the treasure we seek
(19:57):
is always in the cave we're tooafraid to enter and sometimes
along our lives we get peoplewho are willing to invite us
into the caves, this idea thatTorah is always given in the
wilderness.
You know, the thing that we wantin life for fulfillment is
usually not in continuing torinse and repeat what we did
before, because the road'salways moving itself and the
(20:17):
world is always changing and wecan do our best to cement over
it, but nature will always finda way through the cracks.
And I think there's somethinginteresting because in your
story is the embrace of the lackof control, but almost the
magical quality that comes withthat is, the universe can be
(20:38):
seen as overwhelming and scary,but there's something majestic
in that.
You know it's like how does anironweed grow in the midst of a
you know Manhattan sidewalk?
I mean, it really is wonderfulwhen you pause for a moment and
I feel like kids are wired tofeel that awe and wonder.
And for us we just walk offuntil we find the curated
(21:00):
experience that we think is realnature.
And I'm wondering, as you havejourneyed into the wilderness of
Central Park, what have youdiscovered about yourself?
Lisa Timmel (21:09):
So I think what I have learned about myself is a
little bit that I was rightabout myself, that I was right
about what I needed, that therewas life after theater.
I suspected it all along, but Ilearned that you know, when you
(21:34):
make a change like that, thereare many people who fall by the
wayside and I thought I would beokay with it.
And I was okay with it, notthat I don't miss some of the
people that have fallen by thewayside, but my, I understand,
um, how hard it is to step outof again, step out of your
(22:01):
environment.
You get rooted where you are.
Not to really belabor thesegardening metaphors, but you
know, I kind of always thoughtthat I was a little bit
courageous.
You know, my mother would havesaid, yeah, you always did think
things would work out, and shedidn't mean it as a compliment,
you know.
I think she just thought it wasblind optimism.
I would say it might be the mostjoyful experience wandering in
(22:25):
the woods of Central Park, evenin the ways that it is very
difficult.
You know, I have to confront alot of things up there that are
ugly, about the way city lifeaffects people and the way that
the Northwood becomes a refugefor people who have nowhere else
to go.
It's one of the ways in whichthis park, weirdly enough,
(22:49):
supports the people of New Yorkthat there is a place for some
people who need it to hide.
Um, and I think I'm surprised alittle bit about my ability to
have the amount of empathy, uhand just and sorrow that I have
(23:10):
for some of you know some of thepeople that are living up there
, and the reality is we can'tlet them stay.
I am, luckily, not the personwho has to tell them to go and I
always make sure to say goodmorning so they know that I'm
there.
I'm there doing my job.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (23:26):
I'm not going to bother them, I'm there doing
my job, I'm not going to botherthem.
I love looking at the step intoCentral Park as a way of seeing
not only ourselves but also,again, the larger breadth of
humanity and maybe in layers ofthis city and the ecosystem of
the city that we don't alwayswant to acknowledge.
I was thinking about Robin HallTimmerer's Braiding Sweetgrass.
(23:54):
Some of what came out of thebook and I feel like that has
been for me also a little bit ofa story in my own life from
being a science geek andbecoming a rabbi is, as we start
to plumb the depths of a field,we start to realize that once
you've done enough learning andstudying, you start to realize
just how organic, how almostchaotic, but also how cosmically
beautiful it all is.
(24:15):
And it in some ways inspiresthis feeling of a connected
understanding that you know Ican't look at.
You know a mushroom asdisconnected from you.
Know an aspen tree I can't lookat.
You know my own human being asseparate from you.
That ultimately these everyinteractions show us or point us
(24:35):
towards something deeper thatwe don't always want to grasp
hold of because it'soverwhelming, it's, it's scary,
it's um, in some ways it itmakes us feel so, as you said
before, almost likeinsignificant in a universe
where we want desperately tofind our belonging by knowing
that we're significant is.
I want to imagine for a momentthat you get to meld together
(25:01):
all the chapters of Lisa Timmel,all the different circles in
which you have places ofbelonging or lost places of
belonging.
Think about, as you know,having David and Nick and Nora
and all of your friends and allthe people in your life.
If we're going to collapse, allof these circles together and
you were going to lift up whatis a bit of the spark that you
(25:24):
believe you bring into theecosystem, what is it?
Lisa Timmel (25:29):
You know, one of the things that we did a lot
pre-COVID and have done a littlebit since is, you know, we
would have these spaghettidinners on Friday nights and we
have a list that's like 175people and they all get the
invite and it's kind of like amad scramble to get a seat at
the table and then we do alittle.
If you get a seat, then youcan't come back for a little
(25:51):
while to make room and there area lot of people on that list
that have never come andoccasionally I'll email them and
say, would you like to drop offthe spaghetti list?
And they say no, I want to stayon the list.
I like getting the emails and Iknow they're never going to
come.
One of the people on the listjust wanted Tony.
He is never going to come tospaghetti night but, like, here
(26:12):
is a place where you can comeand you have a meal and someone
will listen to your story andthen you get to go back out into
the world and I think that issomething that I really learned
from theater and it was thetheater training, the really
listening with your whole bodyand being present and just
(26:34):
noticing and then thinking aboutwhat you're going to do next.
And that has and it's reallyserved me very well, because
I'll be like I'll come in andI'll say, hey, the New Jersey
tea is blooming, and you know,the assistant manager will fall
over and be like I can't get tothe end.
I was like, oh, I'm so excitedthat you know yes, you know, I
am noticing things.
That is my job is to look andto notice and to see and then to
(26:59):
take action.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (27:10):
Incredible.
So much wisdom for us to begleaning, and I'm so grateful
that you were willing to bring alittle bit of story For those
of you who want some morewitticism, for those of you who
want to be more inspired by theiconic pivot, please seek out
the amazing Lisa Timmel.
Such a gift to be with you,Lisa, thank you.
Lisa Timmel (27:22):
Thank you, Rabbi.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (27:25):
Thank you for joining us and listening to this
story of belonging.
Stay connected with us onFacebook and Instagram.
You can find me on Twitter@Ben H Spratt.
For more information about CRS,visit us online at rodephsholom
.
org.
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