October 17, 2024 • 28 mins
What if the stories we tell could bridge divides and foster a deeper sense of belonging? Join us for an enlightening conversation with Neal Shapiro, a veteran journalist with experience throughout the media industry, as he candidly shares his journey through Judaism and journalism. From facing anti-Semitism in Albany to his impactful role at ABC News during historic events like the Falklands War and Watergate scandal, Neal's story is one of resilience, purpose, and the search for community.
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Rabbi Ben Spratt (00:04):
The human story is the search for
belonging.
From childhood to adulthood, injoy and in struggle, we all sit
in questions of how to makesense of it all.
What is our place?
Why are we here?
What is our story of searching?
Join us in conversation withcommunity members each sharing
some of their own story.
(00:25):
I am Ben Spratt and this isBelonging.
It is such an honor to get to besitting with a beloved friend
and someone that I admire fully,in mind, in heart and in soul,
and Neal Shapiro is probably oneof these individuals.
(00:46):
That really doesn't need anintroduction, but just to give a
brief word, neil has worked inmedia for more than 40 years.
He spent time working at ABCNews, was executive producer at
Dateline NBC, president at NBCNews, and then actually
journeyed to become the CEO ofWNET, known for most of us as 13
(01:10):
.
And during his 40 years inmedia, the number of awards, of
Murrows, of Emmys, of everyaward under the sun I probably
are innumerable.
Maybe you have a countsomewhere, but it's in that time
period that everyone that Iknow that in your professional
life has encountered you hasspoken about your integrity,
your courage and a heart thatalways reaches for goodness.
(01:33):
Neal, in the context of RodephSholom.
You have been a part of thiscommunity for almost 25 years
Here, we've had the chance toweep together, laugh together,
celebrate together, and have youand Juju have raised your three
amazing boys, Jared,Mason—hereso and Mason many
moments in between.
I cannot imagine a voice thatwe need to hear more of and a
(01:57):
heart that we need to bring moreinto the center and to the
spotlight than yours, Neil.
Thank you for being willing tojoin us.
That's going to be easy to liveup to, so go ahead.
Yep, there we go.
So, Neil, you've heard thepodcast.
This is about belonging, andwould love if you'd be willing
to tell us about your own searchfor belonging.
Neal Shapiro (02:15):
You know I was thinking about.
I joined ABC News in 1980.
My first kind of big job in1981 was to be assignment editor
in Buenos Aires during theFalklands War.
And my boss at the time said tome you know, there are two
things they hate in Argentinaand both begin with J.
So I thought about the kind ofJudaism and journalism and how
much I think they're alike, andalso reminding you that many
(02:36):
times you're not a part ofeverybody else.
And you know, when I was growingup I grew up in Albany in a
comfortable middle-class homeand I'm not picking this up in
the town of Bethlehem.
The name of the high schoolpaper was the Bethlehem Star and
we sang Christmas carols in thehigh school choir and there
were not that many Jewish kidsin the school.
(02:57):
And when my parents moved toAlbany, which was in the 50s,
there were parts that therealtor said you can't live here
because Jews aren't allowed inthis part of town.
My name is Neil Shapiro, mymiddle name is Barry and my
mother said I gave you themiddle name Barry because I
thought one day if you went ontelevision you know there's so
much anti-Semitism If you had toyou could drop Shapiro and you
(03:19):
could still be Neil Barry andstill work on television.
So it's amazing, that kind ofin those early days that I
thought about that.
And then the other thing Ithought about belonging is, when
you're not always a part ofsomething bigger, it accentuates
how important it is to belongto something which is smaller
(03:39):
and makes you feel welcome.
Judaism has done that for me inmy whole life has made a place
to feel welcome and a place ofbelonging and a place of purpose
.
And you know, even sometimeswhen I go to synagogue, I do
have this Sinai moment, rightkind of here for a moment, like
I'm lifted away from everythingand I'm part of this larger
effort and that people aroundthe world are saying the same
prayer at the same time.
I'm saying it.
And in journalism there'ssomething of that too.
(04:01):
You know, if you think aboutnatural disasters, there's
always like a big high shot andthere's two lanes of traffic and
one lane of traffic is all thepeople fleeing from the disaster
and the other lane of traffic,much smaller, are the first
responders, the people there togive help and their journalists
there to document what'shappening, and that smaller
group.
There's incredible pressure,incredible tension, but there's
(04:22):
also part of this incrediblefeeling that we're going to do
something together, that we'regoing to make the world better
in our own way?
What?
Rabbi Ben Spratt (04:28):
would lead you to go and then choose another J
in your life, to choosejournalism.
That would then add anotherlayer of standing a little bit
on the outsides of things.
What inspired you to take oneminority identity and add on
another one?
Neal Shapiro (04:43):
Part of it was I liked writing as a young age,
like I taught myself to type,like at seven or eight, and I
would come home and write sportsstories, like just for me.
So I knew I liked writing and Iliked doing that.
And my parents my dad wasgetting his engineering degree
but he was a labor organizer forthe AFL-CIO and my mother was a
writer for the yearbookcovering labor unions so she
(05:06):
went to interview him and that'show they met.
So I think there's somethingabout journalism.
Maybe that was in the blood.
And then the other big thingthat happened you know I was so
I was the guy who was what ranthe high school paper and went
on to do a lot of that.
But Watergate was a big momentin my life.
I remember I would duck out theWatergate hearings were on
during the day in the library,school library and I would duck
(05:27):
out and watch them and I thoughtthis was an amazing thing.
And then I would I rememberreading contemporaneously the
New York Times and WoodburnBernstein, the Washington Post,
feeling like this was an amazingthing.
First because history wasunfolding in front of our eyes,
but second, were it not, formaybe you know some crusading
journalists in the WashingtonPost, we would not know about
(05:47):
this and you know, imagine kindof the abuses that might have
continued under had they notbeen stopped.
And that was really because ofthe watchdog function of
journalism.
So that interested me.
And then television interestedme as the idea about as much as
I liked writing, I recognize,you know what, if you looked at
two things the ability toactually see something and the
(06:08):
ability to put pictures andwords together is such a
powerful thing that if I coulddo it, that's what I wanted to
do.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (06:15):
So as a journalist, and certainly a
person who's been probablythrough every layer and facet of
journalism and media, true,remarkable stories, stories
worth telling, stories worthlistening to or watching
actually are very difficult bothto discover and also discern
how to deliver.
And I'm wondering along the waywhat have been the tools that
(06:38):
have allowed you to know?
What are the things worthy ofsharing, what are the things
necessary to elevate?
You know, in times of scandal,how we can bring truth to power,
and I know you wereinstrumental in the coverage of
the Iraq War and many othermoments of, I would say, human
tragedy and heartbreak.
How did you know, like what arethose tools that you bring to
(07:00):
know?
This is the story that's neededand this is the way we need to
bring it forward.
Neal Shapiro (07:03):
Well, part of it is and I think it's not, once
again, unrelated to journalismright, story is the basis for
everything, right, it's the oraltradition that started our
faith.
It's the reason when we tellthings.
You can tell the same story ina really boring, flat way,
without any personality, or youcan tell a riveting story which
is all about people.
(07:24):
So, at the end of the day, it'sunderstanding, first, how to
tell stories.
I really got into movies as ayoung kid and really loved
movies and what I took from mythought, trying to marry the
best of movies, which is notreal facts but real architecture
, about characters, how tounderstand what they were, about
understanding conflict, right.
And the best stories, I thinkand I'm speaking to someone who
(07:44):
knows this so well are storiesthat touch you in two ways that
touch you in your head and yourheart.
Right, that make you think andmake you feel.
And if you can marry those twotogether and then you can attach
it to some level of importance,those are the best kind of
stories, because then I thinkpeople take away from it, not
just the kind of what must thathave been like, what must it
have felt to people, what werethey thinking about.
(08:05):
But then the larger issues ofyou know what was important.
And if you think about OJSimpson, that whole drama, a lot
of people cover that in a lotof different ways.
There was certainly just aperfectly interesting who did it
story which would run throughthat, but the things that made
that more meaningful and kind oflasting influence were the
larger issues about what thatstory embodied inequality, how
(08:28):
people view the police, thenotion about police procedure
and fairness and all thosethings.
So that story wasn't just aboutOJ Simpson and OJ Simpson right
, he's now gone forever.
The large issues that thatunfurled and touched those are
the important things, I think,for journalism society to think
about.
All those widow issues oftentouch bigger things.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (08:48):
So how do you, if the best stories touch mind
and heart?
It means also being willing to.
As a journalist, I imagineknowing what ignites your own
mind and your own heart.
How do you exist in your ownheart when you are looking at,
I'm sure, moments of greatheroism and courage, but also 40
(09:09):
years swimming in stories thatdon't always just come with
sunshine and rainbows?
Neal Shapiro (09:14):
Part of it is that I think, and I think it's what
I liked about journalism.
You know I was also.
I was a debater in college,right, I was pretty good and
fast on my feet and my dad saidyou should be an attorney.
And Parksey thought thisjournalism thing will never work
out.
But so in my college I was alsoa captain of the debate team
and I realized what I didn'tlike about it was I'd argued
cases so often on so manydifferent sides and I was good
(09:35):
at it that by the end of theyear I was feeling like I'm
confused about how I feel aboutairbags because I've argued so
many different times and Ididn't like that feeling.
What I liked was thinking aboutthe arguments, thinking about
I'm going to make sure otherpeople get to make the best
decisions they can make.
So one of the stories I did along time ago was Primetime Live
.
It was a story about thebeginnings of the neo-Nazi
(09:55):
movement in Austria and a guyGottfried Kussel I think was his
name who was getting a lot ofattention in Austria, a total
Holocaust denier spewing hatred,lived in a house surrounded by
swastikas and odes to Hitler andall this stuff, and we
interviewed him.
But as I did this, I thoughtyou know what this is.
I'm going to channel myinternal rage and anger about
(10:18):
this is knowing that millions ofpeople are going to see this.
And after we aired it, it turnsout he violated a bunch of laws
in Austria and he went to jail,and you know what?
That was the ultimate feelingof accomplishment.
What I did was took not just mypersonal anger which I said is
not part of the story but I'mgoing to paint the picture of
(10:38):
who he is and what other peoplemake judgments, in, the trust
that, at the end of the day, forthe most part, the more
information people have, they'llmake the right choices.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (10:48):
You know and again I think many of us look,
I'm in a position where I'mstanding in front of people and
I'm saying things and it's veryeasy to fall into the desire to
say everything that comes out ofmy mouth is objective.
I am naming the objective truthand I think often we want to
expect that of journalism, but Ithink what you're getting at is
the inherent humanness of theway we tell stories, that there
(11:10):
is not really a way to decoupleour own mind and heart from the
events of the world.
And we're living in a timeright now where it feels like
identity purity has become soassumptive in how we look at the
world.
You know, it does not matteryour political background,
religious background, but thisidea that if you are a thing,
(11:30):
then you are this thing in itsentirety and there is no
suppleness, there is nounderstanding and we cast out
anyone that bumps up against ourunderstanding of this.
So what does it mean to haveour gender identity, our sexual
identity, our national identity?
And I look at the world ofjournalism where in many ways it
is the opportunity to encounterdifferent identities, different
(11:53):
stories, differentunderstandings of the world, and
this does not seem to be a timewhere people bring curiosity of
like oh, my goodness wow, youlive something different than me
.
I will learn that it's.
Instead.
You lived something differentthan me.
Neal Shapiro (12:05):
I will learn that Instead you live something
different than me.
You should be destroyed.
And not only that, I don't wantto hear it.
I don't want to read it, it'san affront.
Do you even put it in front ofme?
I'm not even curious.
I'm being honest.
I'm curious, I'm offended.
You would even put that infront of my eyes or let me hear
it.
That's a shame, I think part ofthe world we live in.
We live in a world which istrending in all the wrong
(12:26):
directions, in which peoplefirst can choose the information
they choose to get by peoplewho get rewarded for just
rewarding them.
So we live in a media which andalgorithms which feed you down
roads of hate and keeppresenting you with things that
just reinforce your points ofview.
If we could get to the pointwhere, even in the best of
politics, when people coulddisagree but agree at least on
(12:48):
humanity, they could agree that,you know, tip O'Neill and
Ronald Reagan could have a drinkat the end of the day and talk
and could actually get thingsdone, though they fundamentally
disagree about a whole bunch ofthings and they saw the world in
very different ways.
And we're losing that, and partof the reason we're losing.
That is because we are paintingpeople as these cardboard
figures.
We don't want to see anycomplexity in them.
What I'm scared about is in theway technology is going right.
(13:14):
We're constantly shaped bypeople who just tell you you're
correct and even if you are atthat moment, the world is
changing so much right.
We should acknowledge the factthat, even if to whatever we
correct really means, even ifyou actually solved it, you've
seen the world objectively, onesecond later it's a different
world.
The world keeps changing rightand we need to make sure we're
(13:34):
aware of that.
And my hope is, over timepeople are going to realize that
we can't keep living in thisworld, that things are going to
happen.
You know, a good example isclimate change.
Like climate change, I think,getting to the point, not for
everybody, but increasingly mostAmericans go like, wait a
minute, the weather is out ofcontrol, but you can see climate
change, you can see what'shappening right.
So I'm not really interested inthose debates anymore about is
(13:55):
it real or not.
It's real right.
And that issue itself is kindof shifting a little bit.
It's becoming less polemic.
I think that may happen withother issues too.
I think, as things as we reachissues where people are like
stop spinning right.
I really need to understandthis.
And if that's true, more peoplestart to flock to say I want
information not just from myusual resources, I want it from
people not just in myneighborhood.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (14:17):
So how have you and Juju, since you're both
in this world of story shapingand feeling, I would say, the
fractures and the fires of thistime, how have you nurtured your
three boys, all three of whomare deeply loving, compassionate
people, very curious people,looking at difference in the
(14:37):
world as opportunity rather thanthreat?
How have you nurtured that?
Neal Shapiro (14:40):
So, first of all, I would say you should interview
Juju because she's she's, sheis the real.
She deserves so much credit forthe boys, um, but having said
that, I think, as as as a couple, um, I think we do try to um
talk about how important it isnot to judge people.
Part of it is because she'soften especially she, but we're
both bringing home stories aboutthings we've done, think people
(15:00):
we've talked to.
You know, first of all, my kidsare incredibly lucky.
They would tell you.
They've had incredibly luckylives, and so it's not as if
they faced a flurry of issues assome other kids.
But having said that, even thevery comfortable lives they've
led, you know, one of them wrotehis college essay about
anti-Semitism in high school.
I was like what, and I remembertelling him the fact that Skip
(15:21):
Gates, who and I remembertelling them, in fact, that Skip
Gates, who does a lot of showsfor us said this thing about
there are two rivers that rundeep through America and one is
anti-Semitism and one is racism,and it's always there and it
bubbles up at certain times.
So don't be surprised, it'sthere.
It's something you will contendwith.
Even in the world of chosenchildren, that's still a thing,
(15:44):
and I said this to my kids aboutwhy we don't have Christmas
trees, right?
It's important for you to knowit's okay to have a holiday
which isn't ours, it's theirs.
There's nothing wrong with that.
You can go help your neighborset up their Christmas tree, but
it's not your holiday, right?
We have our own holidays andit's important to recognize that
at a young age.
That's okay.
You don't have to always bepart of the crowd and it will
(16:06):
give you strength.
It's given me strength to sayyou know what in my other life,
to do stories which peoplehaven't always liked and get
feedback which people are angryabout, and do stories that they
wish some people think youshouldn't have done.
They're like you know what?
I think it's the right thingand I recognize I'm not always
going to be appreciated byeverybody.
(16:28):
And the mob was shaking downpeople who had pinball machines
in the bars.
So I went to school and saidhey, how do we license pinball
machines?
They go.
What do you mean?
License them?
I go, well, we're our licenses.
Well, we don't have any.
So I was the story and theytook the pinball machines out of
the campus in one day, all gone.
I was not the most popular kid.
Now it turns out, it took liketwo days to relicense them and
(16:51):
they all came back.
And if they just followed thelaw, this wouldn't have been an
issue.
And I still think I did theright thing.
But you can't imagine howunpopular I was for a couple of
days.
But you have to have thecharacter and strength that you
know what this is the rightthing and I'm going to stand by
it.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (17:05):
Such an important point.
You know, I feel this.
I'm just thinking in my ownlife.
I feel this, I'm just thinkingin my own life.
I am thinking even this year.
You know my son, Jonah, whojust finished fifth grade.
You know this is a year wherehe starts to bump up against
assumptions of what does it meanto be a boy.
And you know he's a proudSwifty, you know, fan of Taylor
Swift, and he had some difficultexperiences this year where he
(17:29):
not only chose to wear a TaylorSwift shirt and got the
repercussions at school, butremember there was a day where
he was deciding to talk aboutwhat it means to care for other
people and what it means to lovefriends and love animals and
chastise for being a by hispeers, for being willing to
express his love.
And I know I'm sitting with afellow person who, like me, has
(17:52):
tears that often can come up.
And you know what it is tositting with a fellow person who
, like me, has tears that oftencan come up, and you know what
it is to live with a big heart.
And to live with a big heartmeans you are going to, at times
, be stepping apart from thecrowd.
You're going to feel a woundthat other people don't, to see
that sometimes doing the rightthing that may upset people for
two days allows you to feel inalignment with something that
(18:13):
says no.
That voice inside of you issomething important.
There is something in you thatis worth solidifying and
celebrating, and I think aboutthe reach for belonging that
many people have right now, andthat reach is often from a cheap
place.
It's not doing the inner workof wondering where is my heart
in all of this.
It's simply wanting to makesure the world sees I'm not
(18:34):
alone.
And so we'll rush off to alignourselves, to lock arms with
somebody who may stand forsomething that's completely
antithetical to our own heart,but do it because we think it's
the only way to feel belongingand that actually is not a real
sense of belonging becauseeventually those things become
frayed.
Neal Shapiro (18:51):
There is no trust in that right.
Those kinds of alliances willcome and go and often when they
break apart they're painful anddestructive.
It's much better, I think, tosay you know what I am, who I am
.
I'll find people who believe inwhat I believe in and I'm okay,
I can stand apart from people,and that you know.
I think that reflects in allkinds of things, not just
politics, the courage to saysometimes I'm not going to do
this, I'm okay not being a partof it, whether it's, you know, a
(19:12):
foolish choice that someteenagers make.
That's important to say youknow what, I'm not going to go
to that party, I'm not going todo that thing and it's okay.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (19:20):
Knowing that oftentimes, you know, the way
that stories affect us is thatit both can give us a sense of
resonance of what we've beenthrough ourselves, but also
prepare us and open ourselves toexperiences yet to come.
But also prepare us and openourselves to experiences yet to
come.
But we're living in a timewhere those third spaces, where
community is created, are inrapid decline and have been for
a long time, and we've talkedabout this together.
(19:40):
You know the, you knowde-churchification of America.
The rapid decline of churchesand synagogues as spaces of
gathering and specificallyplaces of gathering of diverse
perspectives, you know, hasresulted in many people having
no real physical place thatbrings them into contact with
people that are different thanthem.
And I'm wondering for you wheredo you see the opportunity
(20:03):
rippling in America today?
So, you know, it's easy tofocus on the pessimism, but if
we no longer or we havediminishing spaces, what gives
you a sense of hope?
Or where do you see is theopportunity for us on the
horizon?
You?
Neal Shapiro (20:15):
know, I think there are some things which take
us back to our minds, thethings that can bring us
together, which are notpolitical.
So I think arts is a greatthing.
There are things when we cansee something you know, taylor
Swift's a good example, rightSomeone just unbelievably
talented.
To me, that's a thing that says, you know, can we find
something?
That's the majesty of the humanspirit, the creative mind that
(20:37):
brings works together,performances, art, whatever it
is to say.
Wait, I can stand apart alittle bit from the debate about
what we should with a border,and I'm just going to appreciate
this.
And the other, which I thinkmaybe is, is increasingly
there's more attention beingpaid to local news, local events
.
You know there's a growth innews, in fact, in sort of
(20:58):
smaller papers and digitalthings, and it could be that
some of the larger feelings wehave about are you red, are you
blue, what camp are you in?
Fall away, when it's actuallyabout who's going to fix the
sewer system, right?
What's wrong with the buseshere, right?
What do we do about the waterpressure?
And part of a community isactually hoping people can work
(21:20):
together on smaller issues.
You know, I think about eventhings that we do here about
hunger and things like that,which can be like okay, we can
step away from that and justlook about the issues about
humanity.
Right, we're all against hunger.
Right, we're all going to cometogether to try to do something.
I love that.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (21:36):
I do think this idea of experiencing an
immersive story that draws us in, that pulls us in, I think, is
an essential part of the humanpsyche.
I mean, I'm, you know, the mostobserved Jewish ritual in the
world, of course, is a Passoverseder and, you know, for
thousands of years we've hadthis practice of telling the
same story, but we tell itdifferently.
(21:56):
What do we do?
We sit down.
For some people it's 20 minutes, For some people it's six hours
.
And we tell this epic story andit's a story that both feels
completely other and alien.
I, at least in my world, I'mnot seeing, you know seas
splitting and, um, you knowstaves turning into snakes,
(22:19):
certainly getting to see someplagues of late and things.
But it's interesting because indrawing us in it plays into
these universal humanexperiences, universal human
tropes I find to be one of themore helpful human moves is
oftentimes when we feel mostheartbroken in life.
It's because we have only cometo the first part of the story.
And going back to your earlierpoint, you know the best stories
(22:39):
have conflict, but it's oftenwhat comes on the other side of
the conflict that gives themeaning and purpose and says
that the conflict might havebeen worthwhile all along.
And it's that patience of howdo we look at a time where we
may feel ruptured in our worldor feel betrayed and be willing
to endure, to see what happensafter the 10th plague, to see
what happens when we feel likewe're caught between an army and
(23:01):
an ocean.
And you know, and I wonder foryou what are some of the stories
right now that may not yet havebloomed fully into the public
eye, but even just small storiesthat, for you, are letting you
feel like there's something goodthat's starting to grow.
There are some seedlings here,there's these little shoots of
something that might be worthnurturing.
Neal Shapiro (23:24):
So I think these kind of community developments I
see a lot of that, and I thinkthere's also this generational
thing.
Years ago, we did a story aboutgenerations, and the new
generations, I think, arereflections of different values.
I think they're more giving, Ithink they're more concerned, I
think they're more interested inwork-life balance the way my
(23:46):
generation never was.
Maybe because I couldn't affordto be.
It's all about right, you havea job to do, those are good
values.
Maybe because it couldn'tafford to be.
It's all about right, you havea job to do, those are good
values.
I think, though, it's often aheadache for people like me.
I think, when people care aboutthe values of the places in
which they work, that's adifficult thing to sort out, but
it's good that people say youknow what I want purpose in my
life, and that doesn't just meanwhere I might find a singer, it
(24:09):
means actually the job I have.
I want to know I'm doingsomething good for the world,
and I want to know my bosses arethinking about that.
That didn't happen 30, 40 yearsago, so it's complicated, but I
think it's a good thing.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (24:19):
So I'm hearing you reflect, Neil, and I love
that somehow you see the storymoving forward.
There are many people who aretrying to tell the story of
today as the story that we aremoving backwards.
There are many people todaythat are telling the story today
that we should try to move theworld backwards and there's some
(24:40):
scary things around us andthere's some precipice on either
side and we need to be watchingwhere we're heading.
But ultimately we're headingforward.
And you know, I think aboutthat long arc and I'm just
curious, as a journalist who hascovered things that are both in
the micro element and tried tolift up stories that span years
or even decades, how do you liftyour eyes?
(25:03):
How do you not just look in theretrospective?
How do you not just see theprecipice?
Neal Shapiro (25:09):
How do you?
Rabbi Ben Spratt (25:09):
look at what's ahead of us.
How do you keep thatorientation?
See the precipice.
How do you look at what's aheadof us?
How do you keep thatorientation?
Because I think back over 20years of us knowing each other,
Neil, and I think about theconversations we've had always.
You make a move in ourconversations to look up and for
me, who's not a journalist?
What are the things that therest of us could do to make that
(25:29):
, Neil?
Neal Shapiro (25:29):
Shapiro move.
You'd be a great journalist ifyou ever had you gone that way.
I think you would have been agreat journalist.
But I think there's a couple ofthings.
It's hard to untangle who weare all a product of all the
different things we are.
So I'm not sure which of thoseJ's account of that, but I do
think.
First, part of being a Jew isbelieving you can repair the
world, or you're supposed to.
I think part of being a Jew isbelieving you can repair the
world, or you're supposed to.
(25:50):
I think part of being ajournalist is believing that the
stuff you do helps to make theworld better.
And I think understandinghistory is to say that the world
does.
It takes a while, but the worldis slowly, slowly becoming a
better place.
When I was in college, I spent alot of time studying the Soviet
Union because I believed, aseverybody did, it was going to
be the long twilight strugglebetween us and the Soviet Union
(26:12):
that was going to be the world.
And I studied Soviet economicsand Soviet history and all those
things Flash forward to one dayI was in Berlin on a story and
they called me and they said youhave to go to Berlin because
the wall is coming down.
I go, let me tell you somethingthe Berlin wall is not coming
down.
And then I went there and guesswhat?
I was there the night.
The wall crumbled and theSoviet Union crumbled not long
after that.
Now Russia is still a dangerousplace, but it's not nearly what
(26:34):
the Soviet Union was, and thatidea that we would forever be
caught in that twilight struggleis not true.
It didn't happen.
It's not a clean line, right.
Russia didn't instantly betransformed into a better place.
But Russia today is much lessmenacing, even where we are now,
than the Soviet Union was right, and there's more freedom
countries around it and there'smore sorts of democracy within
(26:56):
it.
I believe that's the way theworld goes, and I believe part
of it is understanding that atthe end of the day, most people
not all, but most peopleactually there's goodness in
them, most people do want to dothe right thing and that if we
try to make sure we can tap intothat and help people find that
within themselves, the worldwill slowly become a better
(27:16):
place.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (27:18):
Well, I have to say I think that should be
the last word.
My friend, I can't think of amore important lesson for us to
be lifting up right now, andespecially as we go into an
election season, at a time whenmany irrespective of how this
election goes are going to befeeling a loss of belonging and
pretty profound fear.
To go back to how do we feelthe humanity and everyone around
(27:41):
us to believe that, ultimately,there's some goodness in people
around us?
That is exactly the story thatwe need right now.
So, thank you, that was a giftthat I needed, Neil.
What a blessing to get to be inconversation with you and what
a gift to get to have all of thelisteners here and get to hear
a bit of your heart and yourwisdom.
Such a blessing.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for inviting me.
It was totally fun.
Such a joy.
(28:01):
Thank you for joining us andlistening to this story of
belonging.
Stay connected with us onFacebook and Instagram.
You can find me on Twitter at@benhspratt.
For more information about CRS,visit us online at rodephsholom
.
org.
The human story is the search for
belonging.
From childhood to adulthood, injoy and in struggle, we all sit
in questions of how to makesense of it all.
What is our place?
Why are we here?
What is our story of searching?
Join us in conversation withcommunity members each sharing
some of their own story.
(00:25):
I am Ben Spratt and this isBelonging.
It is such an honor to get to besitting with a beloved friend
and someone that I admire fully,in mind, in heart and in soul,
and Neal Shapiro is probably oneof these individuals.
(00:46):
That really doesn't need anintroduction, but just to give a
brief word, neil has worked inmedia for more than 40 years.
He spent time working at ABCNews, was executive producer at
Dateline NBC, president at NBCNews, and then actually
journeyed to become the CEO ofWNET, known for most of us as 13
(01:10):
.
And during his 40 years inmedia, the number of awards, of
Murrows, of Emmys, of everyaward under the sun I probably
are innumerable.
Maybe you have a countsomewhere, but it's in that time
period that everyone that Iknow that in your professional
life has encountered you hasspoken about your integrity,
your courage and a heart thatalways reaches for goodness.
(01:33):
Neal, in the context of RodephSholom.
You have been a part of thiscommunity for almost 25 years
Here, we've had the chance toweep together, laugh together,
celebrate together, and have youand Juju have raised your three
amazing boys, Jared,Mason—hereso and Mason many
moments in between.
I cannot imagine a voice thatwe need to hear more of and a
(01:57):
heart that we need to bring moreinto the center and to the
spotlight than yours, Neil.
Thank you for being willing tojoin us.
That's going to be easy to liveup to, so go ahead.
Yep, there we go.
So, Neil, you've heard thepodcast.
This is about belonging, andwould love if you'd be willing
to tell us about your own searchfor belonging.
Neal Shapiro (02:15):
You know I was thinking about.
I joined ABC News in 1980.
My first kind of big job in1981 was to be assignment editor
in Buenos Aires during theFalklands War.
And my boss at the time said tome you know, there are two
things they hate in Argentinaand both begin with J.
So I thought about the kind ofJudaism and journalism and how
much I think they're alike, andalso reminding you that many
(02:36):
times you're not a part ofeverybody else.
And you know, when I was growingup I grew up in Albany in a
comfortable middle-class homeand I'm not picking this up in
the town of Bethlehem.
The name of the high schoolpaper was the Bethlehem Star and
we sang Christmas carols in thehigh school choir and there
were not that many Jewish kidsin the school.
(02:57):
And when my parents moved toAlbany, which was in the 50s,
there were parts that therealtor said you can't live here
because Jews aren't allowed inthis part of town.
My name is Neil Shapiro, mymiddle name is Barry and my
mother said I gave you themiddle name Barry because I
thought one day if you went ontelevision you know there's so
much anti-Semitism If you had toyou could drop Shapiro and you
(03:19):
could still be Neil Barry andstill work on television.
So it's amazing, that kind ofin those early days that I
thought about that.
And then the other thing Ithought about belonging is, when
you're not always a part ofsomething bigger, it accentuates
how important it is to belongto something which is smaller
(03:39):
and makes you feel welcome.
Judaism has done that for me inmy whole life has made a place
to feel welcome and a place ofbelonging and a place of purpose
.
And you know, even sometimeswhen I go to synagogue, I do
have this Sinai moment, rightkind of here for a moment, like
I'm lifted away from everythingand I'm part of this larger
effort and that people aroundthe world are saying the same
prayer at the same time.
I'm saying it.
And in journalism there'ssomething of that too.
(04:01):
You know, if you think aboutnatural disasters, there's
always like a big high shot andthere's two lanes of traffic and
one lane of traffic is all thepeople fleeing from the disaster
and the other lane of traffic,much smaller, are the first
responders, the people there togive help and their journalists
there to document what'shappening, and that smaller
group.
There's incredible pressure,incredible tension, but there's
(04:22):
also part of this incrediblefeeling that we're going to do
something together, that we'regoing to make the world better
in our own way?
What?
Rabbi Ben Spratt (04:28):
would lead you to go and then choose another J
in your life, to choosejournalism.
That would then add anotherlayer of standing a little bit
on the outsides of things.
What inspired you to take oneminority identity and add on
another one?
Neal Shapiro (04:43):
Part of it was I liked writing as a young age,
like I taught myself to type,like at seven or eight, and I
would come home and write sportsstories, like just for me.
So I knew I liked writing and Iliked doing that.
And my parents my dad wasgetting his engineering degree
but he was a labor organizer forthe AFL-CIO and my mother was a
writer for the yearbookcovering labor unions so she
(05:06):
went to interview him and that'show they met.
So I think there's somethingabout journalism.
Maybe that was in the blood.
And then the other big thingthat happened you know I was so
I was the guy who was what ranthe high school paper and went
on to do a lot of that.
But Watergate was a big momentin my life.
I remember I would duck out theWatergate hearings were on
during the day in the library,school library and I would duck
(05:27):
out and watch them and I thoughtthis was an amazing thing.
And then I would I rememberreading contemporaneously the
New York Times and WoodburnBernstein, the Washington Post,
feeling like this was an amazingthing.
First because history wasunfolding in front of our eyes,
but second, were it not, formaybe you know some crusading
journalists in the WashingtonPost, we would not know about
(05:47):
this and you know, imagine kindof the abuses that might have
continued under had they notbeen stopped.
And that was really because ofthe watchdog function of
journalism.
So that interested me.
And then television interestedme as the idea about as much as
I liked writing, I recognize,you know what, if you looked at
two things the ability toactually see something and the
(06:08):
ability to put pictures andwords together is such a
powerful thing that if I coulddo it, that's what I wanted to
do.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (06:15):
So as a journalist, and certainly a
person who's been probablythrough every layer and facet of
journalism and media, true,remarkable stories, stories
worth telling, stories worthlistening to or watching
actually are very difficult bothto discover and also discern
how to deliver.
And I'm wondering along the waywhat have been the tools that
(06:38):
have allowed you to know?
What are the things worthy ofsharing, what are the things
necessary to elevate?
You know, in times of scandal,how we can bring truth to power,
and I know you wereinstrumental in the coverage of
the Iraq War and many othermoments of, I would say, human
tragedy and heartbreak.
How did you know, like what arethose tools that you bring to
(07:00):
know?
This is the story that's neededand this is the way we need to
bring it forward.
Neal Shapiro (07:03):
Well, part of it is and I think it's not, once
again, unrelated to journalismright, story is the basis for
everything, right, it's the oraltradition that started our
faith.
It's the reason when we tellthings.
You can tell the same story ina really boring, flat way,
without any personality, or youcan tell a riveting story which
is all about people.
(07:24):
So, at the end of the day, it'sunderstanding, first, how to
tell stories.
I really got into movies as ayoung kid and really loved
movies and what I took from mythought, trying to marry the
best of movies, which is notreal facts but real architecture
, about characters, how tounderstand what they were, about
understanding conflict, right.
And the best stories, I thinkand I'm speaking to someone who
(07:44):
knows this so well are storiesthat touch you in two ways that
touch you in your head and yourheart.
Right, that make you think andmake you feel.
And if you can marry those twotogether and then you can attach
it to some level of importance,those are the best kind of
stories, because then I thinkpeople take away from it, not
just the kind of what must thathave been like, what must it
have felt to people, what werethey thinking about.
(08:05):
But then the larger issues ofyou know what was important.
And if you think about OJSimpson, that whole drama, a lot
of people cover that in a lotof different ways.
There was certainly just aperfectly interesting who did it
story which would run throughthat, but the things that made
that more meaningful and kind oflasting influence were the
larger issues about what thatstory embodied inequality, how
(08:28):
people view the police, thenotion about police procedure
and fairness and all thosethings.
So that story wasn't just aboutOJ Simpson and OJ Simpson right
, he's now gone forever.
The large issues that thatunfurled and touched those are
the important things, I think,for journalism society to think
about.
All those widow issues oftentouch bigger things.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (08:48):
So how do you, if the best stories touch mind
and heart?
It means also being willing to.
As a journalist, I imagineknowing what ignites your own
mind and your own heart.
How do you exist in your ownheart when you are looking at,
I'm sure, moments of greatheroism and courage, but also 40
(09:09):
years swimming in stories thatdon't always just come with
sunshine and rainbows?
Neal Shapiro (09:14):
Part of it is that I think, and I think it's what
I liked about journalism.
You know I was also.
I was a debater in college,right, I was pretty good and
fast on my feet and my dad saidyou should be an attorney.
And Parksey thought thisjournalism thing will never work
out.
But so in my college I was alsoa captain of the debate team
and I realized what I didn'tlike about it was I'd argued
cases so often on so manydifferent sides and I was good
(09:35):
at it that by the end of theyear I was feeling like I'm
confused about how I feel aboutairbags because I've argued so
many different times and Ididn't like that feeling.
What I liked was thinking aboutthe arguments, thinking about
I'm going to make sure otherpeople get to make the best
decisions they can make.
So one of the stories I did along time ago was Primetime Live
.
It was a story about thebeginnings of the neo-Nazi
(09:55):
movement in Austria and a guyGottfried Kussel I think was his
name who was getting a lot ofattention in Austria, a total
Holocaust denier spewing hatred,lived in a house surrounded by
swastikas and odes to Hitler andall this stuff, and we
interviewed him.
But as I did this, I thoughtyou know what this is.
I'm going to channel myinternal rage and anger about
(10:18):
this is knowing that millions ofpeople are going to see this.
And after we aired it, it turnsout he violated a bunch of laws
in Austria and he went to jail,and you know what?
That was the ultimate feelingof accomplishment.
What I did was took not just mypersonal anger which I said is
not part of the story but I'mgoing to paint the picture of
(10:38):
who he is and what other peoplemake judgments, in, the trust
that, at the end of the day, forthe most part, the more
information people have, they'llmake the right choices.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (10:48):
You know and again I think many of us look,
I'm in a position where I'mstanding in front of people and
I'm saying things and it's veryeasy to fall into the desire to
say everything that comes out ofmy mouth is objective.
I am naming the objective truthand I think often we want to
expect that of journalism, but Ithink what you're getting at is
the inherent humanness of theway we tell stories, that there
(11:10):
is not really a way to decoupleour own mind and heart from the
events of the world.
And we're living in a timeright now where it feels like
identity purity has become soassumptive in how we look at the
world.
You know, it does not matteryour political background,
religious background, but thisidea that if you are a thing,
(11:30):
then you are this thing in itsentirety and there is no
suppleness, there is nounderstanding and we cast out
anyone that bumps up against ourunderstanding of this.
So what does it mean to haveour gender identity, our sexual
identity, our national identity?
And I look at the world ofjournalism where in many ways it
is the opportunity to encounterdifferent identities, different
(11:53):
stories, differentunderstandings of the world, and
this does not seem to be a timewhere people bring curiosity of
like oh, my goodness wow, youlive something different than me
.
I will learn that it's.
Instead.
You lived something differentthan me.
Neal Shapiro (12:05):
I will learn that Instead you live something
different than me.
You should be destroyed.
And not only that, I don't wantto hear it.
I don't want to read it, it'san affront.
Do you even put it in front ofme?
I'm not even curious.
I'm being honest.
I'm curious, I'm offended.
You would even put that infront of my eyes or let me hear
it.
That's a shame, I think part ofthe world we live in.
We live in a world which istrending in all the wrong
(12:26):
directions, in which peoplefirst can choose the information
they choose to get by peoplewho get rewarded for just
rewarding them.
So we live in a media which andalgorithms which feed you down
roads of hate and keeppresenting you with things that
just reinforce your points ofview.
If we could get to the pointwhere, even in the best of
politics, when people coulddisagree but agree at least on
(12:48):
humanity, they could agree that,you know, tip O'Neill and
Ronald Reagan could have a drinkat the end of the day and talk
and could actually get thingsdone, though they fundamentally
disagree about a whole bunch ofthings and they saw the world in
very different ways.
And we're losing that, and partof the reason we're losing.
That is because we are paintingpeople as these cardboard
figures.
We don't want to see anycomplexity in them.
What I'm scared about is in theway technology is going right.
(13:14):
We're constantly shaped bypeople who just tell you you're
correct and even if you are atthat moment, the world is
changing so much right.
We should acknowledge the factthat, even if to whatever we
correct really means, even ifyou actually solved it, you've
seen the world objectively, onesecond later it's a different
world.
The world keeps changing rightand we need to make sure we're
(13:34):
aware of that.
And my hope is, over timepeople are going to realize that
we can't keep living in thisworld, that things are going to
happen.
You know, a good example isclimate change.
Like climate change, I think,getting to the point, not for
everybody, but increasingly mostAmericans go like, wait a
minute, the weather is out ofcontrol, but you can see climate
change, you can see what'shappening right.
So I'm not really interested inthose debates anymore about is
(13:55):
it real or not.
It's real right.
And that issue itself is kindof shifting a little bit.
It's becoming less polemic.
I think that may happen withother issues too.
I think, as things as we reachissues where people are like
stop spinning right.
I really need to understandthis.
And if that's true, more peoplestart to flock to say I want
information not just from myusual resources, I want it from
people not just in myneighborhood.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (14:17):
So how have you and Juju, since you're both
in this world of story shapingand feeling, I would say, the
fractures and the fires of thistime, how have you nurtured your
three boys, all three of whomare deeply loving, compassionate
people, very curious people,looking at difference in the
(14:37):
world as opportunity rather thanthreat?
How have you nurtured that?
Neal Shapiro (14:40):
So, first of all, I would say you should interview
Juju because she's she's, sheis the real.
She deserves so much credit forthe boys, um, but having said
that, I think, as as as a couple, um, I think we do try to um
talk about how important it isnot to judge people.
Part of it is because she'soften especially she, but we're
both bringing home stories aboutthings we've done, think people
(15:00):
we've talked to.
You know, first of all, my kidsare incredibly lucky.
They would tell you.
They've had incredibly luckylives, and so it's not as if
they faced a flurry of issues assome other kids.
But having said that, even thevery comfortable lives they've
led, you know, one of them wrotehis college essay about
anti-Semitism in high school.
I was like what, and I remembertelling him the fact that Skip
(15:21):
Gates, who and I remembertelling them, in fact, that Skip
Gates, who does a lot of showsfor us said this thing about
there are two rivers that rundeep through America and one is
anti-Semitism and one is racism,and it's always there and it
bubbles up at certain times.
So don't be surprised, it'sthere.
It's something you will contendwith.
Even in the world of chosenchildren, that's still a thing,
(15:44):
and I said this to my kids aboutwhy we don't have Christmas
trees, right?
It's important for you to knowit's okay to have a holiday
which isn't ours, it's theirs.
There's nothing wrong with that.
You can go help your neighborset up their Christmas tree, but
it's not your holiday, right?
We have our own holidays andit's important to recognize that
at a young age.
That's okay.
You don't have to always bepart of the crowd and it will
(16:06):
give you strength.
It's given me strength to sayyou know what in my other life,
to do stories which peoplehaven't always liked and get
feedback which people are angryabout, and do stories that they
wish some people think youshouldn't have done.
They're like you know what?
I think it's the right thingand I recognize I'm not always
going to be appreciated byeverybody.
(16:28):
And the mob was shaking downpeople who had pinball machines
in the bars.
So I went to school and saidhey, how do we license pinball
machines?
They go.
What do you mean?
License them?
I go, well, we're our licenses.
Well, we don't have any.
So I was the story and theytook the pinball machines out of
the campus in one day, all gone.
I was not the most popular kid.
Now it turns out, it took liketwo days to relicense them and
(16:51):
they all came back.
And if they just followed thelaw, this wouldn't have been an
issue.
And I still think I did theright thing.
But you can't imagine howunpopular I was for a couple of
days.
But you have to have thecharacter and strength that you
know what this is the rightthing and I'm going to stand by
it.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (17:05):
Such an important point.
You know, I feel this.
I'm just thinking in my ownlife.
I feel this, I'm just thinkingin my own life.
I am thinking even this year.
You know my son, Jonah, whojust finished fifth grade.
You know this is a year wherehe starts to bump up against
assumptions of what does it meanto be a boy.
And you know he's a proudSwifty, you know, fan of Taylor
Swift, and he had some difficultexperiences this year where he
(17:29):
not only chose to wear a TaylorSwift shirt and got the
repercussions at school, butremember there was a day where
he was deciding to talk aboutwhat it means to care for other
people and what it means to lovefriends and love animals and
chastise for being a by hispeers, for being willing to
express his love.
And I know I'm sitting with afellow person who, like me, has
(17:52):
tears that often can come up.
And you know what it is tositting with a fellow person who
, like me, has tears that oftencan come up, and you know what
it is to live with a big heart.
And to live with a big heartmeans you are going to, at times
, be stepping apart from thecrowd.
You're going to feel a woundthat other people don't, to see
that sometimes doing the rightthing that may upset people for
two days allows you to feel inalignment with something that
(18:13):
says no.
That voice inside of you issomething important.
There is something in you thatis worth solidifying and
celebrating, and I think aboutthe reach for belonging that
many people have right now, andthat reach is often from a cheap
place.
It's not doing the inner workof wondering where is my heart
in all of this.
It's simply wanting to makesure the world sees I'm not
(18:34):
alone.
And so we'll rush off to alignourselves, to lock arms with
somebody who may stand forsomething that's completely
antithetical to our own heart,but do it because we think it's
the only way to feel belongingand that actually is not a real
sense of belonging becauseeventually those things become
frayed.
Neal Shapiro (18:51):
There is no trust in that right.
Those kinds of alliances willcome and go and often when they
break apart they're painful anddestructive.
It's much better, I think, tosay you know what I am, who I am
.
I'll find people who believe inwhat I believe in and I'm okay,
I can stand apart from people,and that you know.
I think that reflects in allkinds of things, not just
politics, the courage to saysometimes I'm not going to do
this, I'm okay not being a partof it, whether it's, you know, a
(19:12):
foolish choice that someteenagers make.
That's important to say youknow what, I'm not going to go
to that party, I'm not going todo that thing and it's okay.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (19:20):
Knowing that oftentimes, you know, the way
that stories affect us is thatit both can give us a sense of
resonance of what we've beenthrough ourselves, but also
prepare us and open ourselves toexperiences yet to come.
But also prepare us and openourselves to experiences yet to
come.
But we're living in a timewhere those third spaces, where
community is created, are inrapid decline and have been for
a long time, and we've talkedabout this together.
(19:40):
You know the, you knowde-churchification of America.
The rapid decline of churchesand synagogues as spaces of
gathering and specificallyplaces of gathering of diverse
perspectives, you know, hasresulted in many people having
no real physical place thatbrings them into contact with
people that are different thanthem.
And I'm wondering for you wheredo you see the opportunity
(20:03):
rippling in America today?
So, you know, it's easy tofocus on the pessimism, but if
we no longer or we havediminishing spaces, what gives
you a sense of hope?
Or where do you see is theopportunity for us on the
horizon?
You?
Neal Shapiro (20:15):
know, I think there are some things which take
us back to our minds, thethings that can bring us
together, which are notpolitical.
So I think arts is a greatthing.
There are things when we cansee something you know, taylor
Swift's a good example, rightSomeone just unbelievably
talented.
To me, that's a thing that says, you know, can we find
something?
That's the majesty of the humanspirit, the creative mind that
(20:37):
brings works together,performances, art, whatever it
is to say.
Wait, I can stand apart alittle bit from the debate about
what we should with a border,and I'm just going to appreciate
this.
And the other, which I thinkmaybe is, is increasingly
there's more attention beingpaid to local news, local events
.
You know there's a growth innews, in fact, in sort of
(20:58):
smaller papers and digitalthings, and it could be that
some of the larger feelings wehave about are you red, are you
blue, what camp are you in?
Fall away, when it's actuallyabout who's going to fix the
sewer system, right?
What's wrong with the buseshere, right?
What do we do about the waterpressure?
And part of a community isactually hoping people can work
(21:20):
together on smaller issues.
You know, I think about eventhings that we do here about
hunger and things like that,which can be like okay, we can
step away from that and justlook about the issues about
humanity.
Right, we're all against hunger.
Right, we're all going to cometogether to try to do something.
I love that.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (21:36):
I do think this idea of experiencing an
immersive story that draws us in, that pulls us in, I think, is
an essential part of the humanpsyche.
I mean, I'm, you know, the mostobserved Jewish ritual in the
world, of course, is a Passoverseder and, you know, for
thousands of years we've hadthis practice of telling the
same story, but we tell itdifferently.
(21:56):
What do we do?
We sit down.
For some people it's 20 minutes, For some people it's six hours
.
And we tell this epic story andit's a story that both feels
completely other and alien.
I, at least in my world, I'mnot seeing, you know seas
splitting and, um, you knowstaves turning into snakes,
(22:19):
certainly getting to see someplagues of late and things.
But it's interesting because indrawing us in it plays into
these universal humanexperiences, universal human
tropes I find to be one of themore helpful human moves is
oftentimes when we feel mostheartbroken in life.
It's because we have only cometo the first part of the story.
And going back to your earlierpoint, you know the best stories
(22:39):
have conflict, but it's oftenwhat comes on the other side of
the conflict that gives themeaning and purpose and says
that the conflict might havebeen worthwhile all along.
And it's that patience of howdo we look at a time where we
may feel ruptured in our worldor feel betrayed and be willing
to endure, to see what happensafter the 10th plague, to see
what happens when we feel likewe're caught between an army and
(23:01):
an ocean.
And you know, and I wonder foryou what are some of the stories
right now that may not yet havebloomed fully into the public
eye, but even just small storiesthat, for you, are letting you
feel like there's something goodthat's starting to grow.
There are some seedlings here,there's these little shoots of
something that might be worthnurturing.
Neal Shapiro (23:24):
So I think these kind of community developments I
see a lot of that, and I thinkthere's also this generational
thing.
Years ago, we did a story aboutgenerations, and the new
generations, I think, arereflections of different values.
I think they're more giving, Ithink they're more concerned, I
think they're more interested inwork-life balance the way my
(23:46):
generation never was.
Maybe because I couldn't affordto be.
It's all about right, you havea job to do, those are good
values.
Maybe because it couldn'tafford to be.
It's all about right, you havea job to do, those are good
values.
I think, though, it's often aheadache for people like me.
I think, when people care aboutthe values of the places in
which they work, that's adifficult thing to sort out, but
it's good that people say youknow what I want purpose in my
life, and that doesn't just meanwhere I might find a singer, it
(24:09):
means actually the job I have.
I want to know I'm doingsomething good for the world,
and I want to know my bosses arethinking about that.
That didn't happen 30, 40 yearsago, so it's complicated, but I
think it's a good thing.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (24:19):
So I'm hearing you reflect, Neil, and I love
that somehow you see the storymoving forward.
There are many people who aretrying to tell the story of
today as the story that we aremoving backwards.
There are many people todaythat are telling the story today
that we should try to move theworld backwards and there's some
(24:40):
scary things around us andthere's some precipice on either
side and we need to be watchingwhere we're heading.
But ultimately we're headingforward.
And you know, I think aboutthat long arc and I'm just
curious, as a journalist who hascovered things that are both in
the micro element and tried tolift up stories that span years
or even decades, how do you liftyour eyes?
(25:03):
How do you not just look in theretrospective?
How do you not just see theprecipice?
Neal Shapiro (25:09):
How do you?
Rabbi Ben Spratt (25:09):
look at what's ahead of us.
How do you keep thatorientation?
See the precipice.
How do you look at what's aheadof us?
How do you keep thatorientation?
Because I think back over 20years of us knowing each other,
Neil, and I think about theconversations we've had always.
You make a move in ourconversations to look up and for
me, who's not a journalist?
What are the things that therest of us could do to make that
(25:29):
, Neil?
Neal Shapiro (25:29):
Shapiro move.
You'd be a great journalist ifyou ever had you gone that way.
I think you would have been agreat journalist.
But I think there's a couple ofthings.
It's hard to untangle who weare all a product of all the
different things we are.
So I'm not sure which of thoseJ's account of that, but I do
think.
First, part of being a Jew isbelieving you can repair the
world, or you're supposed to.
I think part of being a Jew isbelieving you can repair the
world, or you're supposed to.
(25:50):
I think part of being ajournalist is believing that the
stuff you do helps to make theworld better.
And I think understandinghistory is to say that the world
does.
It takes a while, but the worldis slowly, slowly becoming a
better place.
When I was in college, I spent alot of time studying the Soviet
Union because I believed, aseverybody did, it was going to
be the long twilight strugglebetween us and the Soviet Union
(26:12):
that was going to be the world.
And I studied Soviet economicsand Soviet history and all those
things Flash forward to one dayI was in Berlin on a story and
they called me and they said youhave to go to Berlin because
the wall is coming down.
I go, let me tell you somethingthe Berlin wall is not coming
down.
And then I went there and guesswhat?
I was there the night.
The wall crumbled and theSoviet Union crumbled not long
after that.
Now Russia is still a dangerousplace, but it's not nearly what
(26:34):
the Soviet Union was, and thatidea that we would forever be
caught in that twilight struggleis not true.
It didn't happen.
It's not a clean line, right.
Russia didn't instantly betransformed into a better place.
But Russia today is much lessmenacing, even where we are now,
than the Soviet Union was right, and there's more freedom
countries around it and there'smore sorts of democracy within
(26:56):
it.
I believe that's the way theworld goes, and I believe part
of it is understanding that atthe end of the day, most people
not all, but most peopleactually there's goodness in
them, most people do want to dothe right thing and that if we
try to make sure we can tap intothat and help people find that
within themselves, the worldwill slowly become a better
(27:16):
place.
Rabbi Ben Spratt (27:18):
Well, I have to say I think that should be
the last word.
My friend, I can't think of amore important lesson for us to
be lifting up right now, andespecially as we go into an
election season, at a time whenmany irrespective of how this
election goes are going to befeeling a loss of belonging and
pretty profound fear.
To go back to how do we feelthe humanity and everyone around
(27:41):
us to believe that, ultimately,there's some goodness in people
around us?
That is exactly the story thatwe need right now.
So, thank you, that was a giftthat I needed, Neil.
What a blessing to get to be inconversation with you and what
a gift to get to have all of thelisteners here and get to hear
a bit of your heart and yourwisdom.
Such a blessing.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for inviting me.
It was totally fun.
Such a joy.
(28:01):
Thank you for joining us andlistening to this story of
belonging.
Stay connected with us onFacebook and Instagram.
You can find me on Twitter at@benhspratt.
For more information about CRS,visit us online at rodephsholom
.
org.
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