Examining Mental Health in Media

Episode Transcript
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(00:16):
Be inspired to. Do things differently.
Hey everyone, Dylan here. Before we begin the show
formally, I would like to start with a brief in memoriam in
honor of the actor George Wendt,who recently passed.
He is best known for his role asNorm in the classic television

(00:37):
sitcom Cheers. So if you would join me in a
brief moment of silence, that would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for doing that for me,everyone.
I know this is a small gesture, but it is the least we can do to

(01:02):
acknowledge his storied career. Thank you.
Please enjoy the show. Hey everyone, welcome back to
the show. This is below the line podcast.
I'm Dylan. I'm.
Jesse and right next to me is yeah, you hear that silence.
Cass is not here, and the reasonCass is not here is because he

(01:25):
was so devastated by his performance last week that he
took a day off for his mental health.
And we here at Below the Line podcast do believe in mental
health days. So this is his one mental health
day. This is the one he gets, yeah.
For the year. Yeah, for the year, you know how
that. We're kidding for the month, but

(01:48):
so today we are going to talk about something maybe not
relatable to a lot of people or maybe relatable to all people.
This episode has more of a themeas opposed to a specific movie
or show that we want to address.But since it's the end of May, I

(02:08):
pointed out to Jesse that May isMental Health Awareness Month.
So we thought that we would hop on here and talk about some
movies or shows that address mental health, maybe even some
that may help you feel less alone or make sense of your

(02:33):
specific experience. And unfortunately, we might even
mention some stuff that you should avoid.
Yes, So mental health, I think, I think this is a great topic,
just like specifically, specifically between you and me,

(02:53):
just because of like conversations we've had off the
pod and just like our relationship going back 10 years
and like knowing how we've been like growing up in our own
personal struggles. We don't have to get into it on
the mic, but I know everybody inlife has personal struggles and
everyone deals with it differently.
I agree. I think it's obviously a topic

(03:15):
that it's a little close to homefor both of us for different
reasons, but hopefully we are able to provide something of
value for anyone that might be listening to this episode.
Like you said, we don't have to get into any specifics, but I

(03:36):
just want to say that part of our objective here is we're
going to be trying to tie everything back to a central
thesis or idea that we want all of you to keep in mind as we
navigate this episode. Yeah, so my whole thing

(03:56):
regarding mental health as like just a human being and just as
someone who's dealt with his ownlike, mental health issues or
whatever. I think for everyone listening
out there, it's OK to be sad. If you're sad, it's OK.
We've all been there, but at thesame time, you are also
responsible for your own happiness.

(04:18):
As in no one's going to come save me or cure me.
I'm I am responsible for making myself happy.
So that's what I like, what I'm personally, how I personally
feel regarding mental health, that it's everyone has their bad
days and it's OK. But at the end of the day, we
are responsible for getting better.
And part of that might be like, you know, seeking professional

(04:40):
help or leaning on your friends more, but not leaning to the
point that your your toxicity affects your friends and you
push them away and all that. There's a lot of movies that
deal with that. There is, yeah.
And I didn't want to mention it because we've been talking about
Marvel like the past four episodes.
And I told you off the pod that,hey, don't let me talk about

(05:03):
Marvel, but I'm already here, so.
Thunderbolts, let's get it out of the way.
Yeah, just I'm going to go just say real quick.
Thunderbolts was a great exampleof that, you know, just mental
health being sad and like knowing that there are bad days,
but you know, lean on your support system and like it's as
they said in Thunderbolts, your depression or your sadness is

(05:24):
not going to go away. But you know, just day by day,
just it gets better. And as long as you have someone
to lean on for the worst days like you know, it does make the
suffering less. And Thunderbolts did a great job
at doing that. I agree.
I think hopefully if you are a returning listener, you know how
all of us felt about Thunderbolts at this point, so I

(05:49):
won't rehash all of that. But I do agree that the single
best thing Thunderbolts did regarding its handling of mental
health is it made it clear that there is no simple solution to
these kind of issues. And I think that's a problem for

(06:10):
a lot of media when they try to address mental health.
If you listen to the episode about Joker, you know that one
of the criticisms I had of it atthe time was I think it's
difficult to address mental health in media because there

(06:31):
tends to be a broad spectrum of how you go about handling these
issues. And what I've found is you will
either romanticize it to the point where it becomes such a
fundamental aspect of the character, or you will baby the

(06:56):
issue too much and sort of downplay it.
And I'm sorry, I'm going to mention Marvel here.
Jesse's the one that pointed this out.
Oh, my fault guys. It.
Is the go to example Thor in Avengers End Game, a character
that they clearly wanted to portray as depressed, but he's
the butt of the joke at every single chance the film makers

(07:20):
get. And right, that rubbed me the
wrong way for obvious reasons. But I think my central thesis
here, the thing that I want everybody to keep in mind is
that do not identify with your diagnosis or your illness.

(07:43):
That is a very dangerous thing to do.
I understand the temptation to do so, but it can cause a lot
more problems than it's actuallyworth.
Man, that got deep. So let's pull back a little bit.
Like now I'm like, let's shit onmedia that has portrayed mental

(08:04):
health badly. I think you've mentioned before
shows on like like Euphoria, haven't seen it, but I've, I've
seen shorts of it. Yeah.
So like, I know it's basically like it's basically 2020's
version of Degrassi back from 2009.
Yeah, Euphoria is a show that has a lot of issues, not just in
terms of its depiction of mentalhealth, but just its

(08:28):
storytelling, right? But I think Euphoria is kind of
the go to example of a show thatleans too hard into
romanticizing mental health problems because too many of the
characters in that show, the waythat the show frames all of

(08:53):
these issues, the way that it portrays them, it's it's so
obvious that it's trying to communicate this idea of, oh,
this is my entire personality. Here's the best way to phrase
it. Euphoria wields mental health
problems like an aesthetic and not an actual serious damn

(09:18):
issue. Like a Pinterest.
Board. Yeah, no, that's exactly what it
is. I guarantee you if you were to
put Euphoria into Pinterest, youwill have somebody that takes it
100% seriously, like all quotes,and dedicates it to that show.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I think I think that that isa problem in media where if you

(09:41):
can make a buck off it, people will try to like profit off your
suffering or off your like, you know, I think in recent times we
see more movies portraying mentally ill characters as well
as like, I think movies in the past, like way back in the past,
either like, you know, action movies or romantic movies,
comedies in like the 2000s, we had just like like the rise of

(10:05):
superhero movies. But it's not until I mean, it's
been there like move like characters with mental health
issues or just dealing with depression trying to carry on it
even in other mediums like booksor comics.
But I think in more recent times, it's been like, oh, let's
romanticize it. Like you said, like in Euphoria.

(10:25):
My example I was thinking, because I just finished watching
season 5 yesterday, was you likeafter the first season, I think
even the actor Pan Badgley, evenhe was kind of like disgusted
with how like there was a certain Nisha fans who were in
love with the Joe Goldberg character.
Really. Yeah.
That like that's been a thing since season 1.

(10:46):
Like there's been like, it's like the, the people that that
love who's the dude in jail, Manson, Marilyn Manson or
Charlie Manson or oh, I know it's a, it's a man.
Yeah. Charles Manson.
Like how you know, he's basically, you know, he's a bad
dude. Yeah.
But you know, people like specifically like, like very

(11:07):
like small group of women. Like they romanticize them.
Like they send them fan mail andall this shit.
And spoiler alerts for you. If you haven't seen you again,
spoiler alerts for you. But like, you know, at the end,
the end of the season, like it ends with him, you know, getting
his his his just desserts. He goes to jail like prison for
like a long ass time. But he's he's receiving fan mail

(11:30):
and he and he that's where he has like this meta, like he
tried to be cute, this meta commentary, because he's like
talking in in his head and he's like, maybe I'm not the problem.
Maybe I just look at the camera.Maybe it's you as a society and
like, you know, I think the show, I think it was it if it
was done better, that would havethat would have hit harder

(11:52):
because I think, yeah, you know what?
I I know what you're trying to say.
You like, because that did happen with the Joel Goldberg
character. Like a lot, like a lot of like,
like women were just like romanticizing this dude.
Like, oh, I want a guy that would kill for me, a serial
killer. Like, like that was theirs
daddy. And and the actor himself, Pan
Badgley, he was like, he was disgusted by it.

(12:14):
Like he didn't even want to do the role, but he ended up doing
it. But like just seeing like the
how people reacted to his character, like he didn't like
that. So I guess he had more creative
control on how like the character got his his just
desserts in the last season. Like, he didn't want him to die
because that'd be too easy. Yeah.
So like, the way that it ends islike, he gets his Dick shut off

(12:34):
and that's, you know, apparently, like my brother,
like he, he did like a deep diveafter watching the show.
Like, he did like, he watched like, the, like, the video
analysis, like the interviews and all that.
And I guess, like, you know, like him getting his Dick shot
shut off was supposed to, like, be symbolic of, like, him losing
his sex, sex symbol status. Yeah.
Because, like, a lot of women were like, you know that.

(12:54):
Was my assumption just based offwhat you?
Yeah, said so far and it's and it's like, oh, that that's funny
how like that that's how they'retrying, they're trying to
deconstruct them as like, you know, like take away his
manhood, take away his powers down to jail, but people still
romanticize them. I think like that was that
that's an example to like tie itback to our our theme of how
like they're romanticizing his mental health.

(13:16):
Because I do think in some partsof the show, like Joe Goldberg,
that character, he, he does havemental health issues.
Yeah, I haven't watched all of you, but it's pretty clear that
he is not well. Right.
And it's it's one of those things where I've just seen at
least Season 1. I've seen definitely seen season
1. OK.
I think that's all you need for just this part of the discussion

(13:38):
where you see that yes, he he isa serial killer, but he's all he
also has like this sympathetic side where like he he looks out
for others, like the kid Paco, he looks out.
He tries. He he's a compassionate
character, which makes some kind, which makes like.
I think that's the the draw of the show where they're you're
sympathizing with the serial killer, which I thought season 1

(14:00):
did great and it goes off the rails season 2 and 3 four and
season 5 tries to bring it back.But but anyway, my, my point is
like, just like that portrayal of like mental health.
I think it was great in the first season, but just the way
how people interpreted it, some people, not all people, but some
people interpreted it romanticized his, you know, Oh,

(14:20):
I want someone to kill for me. Like just romanticizing his
issues instead of like looking at him like, no, this dude has
issues. He's charming because he's a
manipulator. Don't be like, don't.
Don't fall for him. Yeah.
And like, don't fall for people like this.
Right, that's interesting. I like I said, I haven't watched

(14:41):
all of you so it's tough for me to comment, but I'm I'm not
really surprised by that reaction.
Unfortunately. I was watching a show earlier in
the year, and I learned that some women have a fetish
specifically for convicted murderers.

(15:04):
It's a real thing. Yeah.
And I was just a little confusedby that.
But I think it's interesting that you tried to address that
and then obviously comment on the fact that maybe the audience
is the problem and not him. But just hearing you describe

(15:26):
that, that's one of those thingswhere, again, I think that
really depends on how you try toactually execute these things,
right? Because another example of a
show that claims to advocate formental health, which I don't

(15:50):
think does very well at all, is 13 Reasons Why.
And I don't know if you've seen it.
No but I know if I mentioned before about the the euphoria
having a Pinterest board for sure. 13 reasons why it has like
1,000,000 Pinterest boards. So I have a lot of issues with

(16:11):
that show. I won't get into all of them
because I think that would take up a lot of time, but suffice it
to say the show takes a very strange turn in the later
seasons. Specifically I want to say 3 and
4. They've got Four Seasons, yeah.
Oh damn, I thought it was just one.
No, right. That's what it you would think,

(16:33):
given how important they tried to make the show, that it would
be this like one off mini series, right?
It wasn't. Is it like an anthology?
Like, No, it's, it's continuous there.
Are recurring characters. There's like a Korean plot line.
All right, so I haven't seen theshow, but I thought like, I
think I've read it, but the premise isn't it.

(16:55):
Someone killed themselves and here's the reason why I did it.
Yeah, and she she makes dumb these like, well, she not like,
but she makes audio tapes directed at specific people
like. You're the reason.
Why? That, she believes, contributed
to her taking her own life. I have a problem with that
alone. I I was.
Going to say I, I said it was dumb really because I, I, I have

(17:18):
a problem, which is the idea of romanticizing like the suicide.
Yeah. But then I have another thing
where I think because sometimes I think suicide can be
portrayed. I don't want to get cancelled,
but I think it can be portrayed,you know, poetically in media.
Think Romeo and Juliet. Yeah, like Shakespearean, like

(17:38):
the like just it can be in a gothic tale.
You know, it can work and it canbe done well, I think 1313
reasons why just. I think the way you described it
to me and what from what I remember reading the plot, just
the Plot Summary. Yeah.
It's just basically romanticizing someone's suicide
with this, I guess these cute. See audio recordings.

(18:01):
Yeah. And what was so strange about it
is when it first came out, people wanted to bring back that
kind of analog cassette tapes specifically because of the
show. That's how that's how much like
you said, that show probably hasa Pinterest board, but that's
how much people again, it's a show that kind of wields mental

(18:23):
health like an aesthetic that people were actively going back
and trying to make music that was designed specifically to be
played on an 8 track. It's just it was a very weird
situation, right. But then so that this is a major
issue I have with 13 Reasons whyis later in in the show they try

(18:48):
to address some other major problems with mental health.
One of them being the idea of mass shooters.
They they do not handle that well either.
But in my opinion, the biggest, biggest blunder of this show.

(19:09):
Spoilers for seasons 3 and 4. Spoilers 3 reasons why.
They try and I wish I was lying.They try to redeem a rapist.
Oh no, I mean, again, depending on the story or like I'm not

(19:31):
saying that rapists are redeemable, but like we're
talking about fictional media, depending on the story, it could
work sometimes. I don't.
I'm from the way you're describing the shot.
I don't know if. It doesn't in 13 Reasons Why,
but I I can understand what you're saying in the sense that
a good movie, a good show will show you that there is

(19:52):
complexity to human beings. Even though this is a fictional
character, there is more to themthan just the bad things that
they have done. That's not to say that it does
redeem them. It's more so to just show you
that human beings are incrediblycomplicated.
Creatures. Yeah, exactly.

(20:12):
Which is complicated. Yeah.
Like the first example I thoughtlike immediately, immediately
that immediately came to mind was the opening episode of Game
of Thrones or Jamie Lannister just shut pushes the kid off for
like a tall ass building or tower, wherever they were at.
And you see his character and you're like, that's a shitty
thing to do. I fucking hate this guy.

(20:34):
And over the course of like 5-6 seasons, he it's like him
redeeming himself, like not not only to himself, but to the
audience where it's like, you know what, yeah, he did that
shitty thing in the beginning, but he's been trying to give you
better. And again, there's just
fictional me. Like fictional media or.
Yeah, of. Course, but it's but that's an

(20:56):
example of like if it can, it can be done well, then it if
it's executed well, it's great. But the problem with shows like
this that were meant we're talking about first is that
they're just romanticizing it and trying to make it, I guess,
like an aesthetic, as you said. Yeah, it's unfortunate.
And I think similar to what you just said with Game of Thrones,

(21:20):
that is a good way, I think, to segue into something that I
think handles mental health unbelievably well.
Depending on the mood I'm in, I might think it is the single
best depiction of mental health which is Bojack Horseman.

(21:40):
Bro. The so I'm going to assume
you've seen it. Ah bro I love that show.
That show astounds me for so many reasons.
But one of the things that I hate so much about the Bojack
discourse is I've seen these video essays and these think

(22:01):
pieces on YouTube of people saying, Congrats, you missed the
point. You're not supposed to
sympathize with Bojack. And I think we need to pause.
Bojack has done bad things. But similar to what you were
just saying with Jaime Lannister, the whole point of

(22:21):
the show is to show you that yes, he can be a deeply flawed
individual, but at the same timehe is wrestling with so much,
and you have to take that into consideration when he behaves in

(22:45):
ways that are less than moral. Right, you know what, like my,
my favorite thing about the the Bojack Horseman discourse is
yeah, you have people who eitherreally love the Bojack
character, IE me and some other people I know.
And you have people who hate theBojack character, IE not me and
other people I know, but I thinkit's it's fun because yes,

(23:10):
Bojack is a terrible. He's not a person.
He's a terrible horse. He's a terrible person.
Well, I just, I just kind of a person moving forward.
And do we see that withdraw likethat thing like the first 2-3
like? I think it's the first 3.
Seasons like the first cuz at some point like really.
Set people off is when he gets into the goes onto the boat with

(23:35):
right I forget what her name is.Same, but I know that that that
ends up like it ends up like that ends up biting him in the
ass later on, which I think, youknow, at the end of the day, I
liked it because it held Bojack accountable.
I think there was like the meta cat.
There was some meta commentary on Bojack Horseman of how
celebrities, they just get away with everything.

(23:55):
And in the beginning, that's howwe saw Bojack.
Like he would do fucked up shit and his money or his connections
would just wash it away. And then towards like the last
season, now he gets his, his, his do desserts.
Like now everything, all the batshit that he did in the past,
it comes to like bite him in theass.
It's also kind of unfortunate because this is around the time

(24:19):
where he starts to redeem himself or try to be better.
But then his like his demons come back from his past.
And it's like for me, I I loved it because it it it was, it made
such an like such a bad character.
Not, not bad as he was like a bad character portrayed, but
just like he was a bad person. But it made him more complex and

(24:41):
he was trying to redeem himself and he, he, he, he was not able
to finish on his terms 'cause heends up going to jail.
Yeah, I think I agree. That's what makes the show so
interesting. If you're talking specifically
in the context of that last season, yes, that's when he

(25:02):
makes the conscious decision to try and be a better person, to
try and change his life, which ties into your thesis here.
He realizes he is the only person who can change his life.
He is responsible for his own happiness.
And just as he starts to do that, that's when the press

(25:24):
starts to dredge up all of this terrible stuff from his past.
But despite the fact that all ofthat came out, he didn't use it
as an excuse to revert back to his old ways.
He didn't go down another self-destructive spiral.

(25:44):
The ending of Bojack Horseman being basically a frame for
frame shot of the ending of the pilot episode with him and Diane
on the roof. He, to me, my interpretation of
that was he is going to continueto make the decision to keep
moving forward, to try being a better person despite everything

(26:09):
that happened, because it's really all he can do.
And I don't know how people can watch that and just just turn
Bojack Horseman into this, this black and white moral quandary
because it's it's just so much deeper than that.
Right, like I will say right nowon the on the record that around

(26:36):
the around the time I'm so. Glad you watched this show
though. Bro I was going to say how many
seasons is it? 5 or 666?
OK so around the time when season 5 came out, I was on my
sad voice shit. So watching Bojack Horseman, Oh
my God, I really did so much like, not to his struggle per
SE, but just like his depression, because he would

(26:56):
have swings where he's feeling good about himself and then he
would go on the self-destructivepath where he would ruin himself
or he would ruin the relationships around them.
Like Todd. Yeah, at first I didn't like
Todd's character because he was kind of annoying.
Yeah, me neither. You know, Jesse Pinkman won me
over. And like, I just love the way
that Todd, he, he, him and Mr. Peanut Butter, like, they're

(27:18):
just goofballs, but they're always like, they have this
positive mindset where like, yeah, shit happens.
Like, specifically, specificallyMr. Peanut Butter.
Like bad shit happens to him andhe's, he's just a golden
retriever. He's just like, ah, well, you
know, shit happens. Oh, well, I gotta push forward
Todd the same way. Like bad shit happens to him all
the time. Yeah.
Either because the story of what's happening around him or

(27:41):
because of Bojack actually, like, you know, like messing
with them. Yeah.
Which I think that's that. That's what makes the show so
great, because you watch you, you see how it looks like and
you watch like the first episodeand you think this is going to
be like a dumb, just like, you know, there's a Family Guy type.
Show that's exactly what I was going to say and it's one of
those anthropomorphic incredibleshows yeah I.

(28:04):
Think I think it is the first episode.
Like I I totally stole my thesisstanding from Diane and Nguyen
where she's like, you are responsible for your own
happiness. When she said that, Oh my God,
that hit me so deep because I was like, I said I was going
through some shit and just hearing that was like, damn,
like she's right. Like I'm sad, but no one's going

(28:26):
to come save me. I need to like get off my ass
and like do something about it. She's right.
And then I watch the rest of theshow or up until season 5, I see
Bojack just like, you know, being like how I'm being like
how you said earlier where do not make your illness your
identity. Bojack totally made his illness
his identity for like the first three or Four Seasons where he

(28:48):
would always like he'd do betterand then revert back.
And I felt like that, that's been me throughout my life
throughout like some like just pulses in my life where I'm, I'm
doing better. Either I'm, I'm either with
mentally or just like, we'll sayI like health wise, like maybe
like I'm, I'm running, I'm exercising, I'm doing this.
And then I fought the horse and go back in my bad habits, start

(29:09):
benching all this junk food and all that.
I talk too much because I reallylove the show.
I'm gonna let I'm gonna let you jump in before I keep on
talking. That's.
OK, I. Really love Bojack Horseman.
I'm glad you brought it up because I couldn't.
Once season 6 got announced, I could not finish it.
It was like for me, it was too heavy and I was like, you know
what, if I watch this all the way as I am right now, it's not

(29:30):
going to go good for me. Like that's how enamored I was
with the show. Where I was, I couldn't finish
it until like later on, like a year later, I was in a better
place mentally. I was like, all right, let's
finish Bojack Horseman, which I'm glad I did that way because
Oh my God, it gets, it gets deep.
That's interesting. That's an interesting

(29:51):
perspective. I don't think it's wrong per SE,
because only you can make that decision, but I watched every
single season as it came out andI was basically in a state of
constant crisis throughout that entire show's existence.
I remember the first time I sat down to watch Bojack Horseman

(30:14):
and in the pilot episode when hehas a panic attack and he goes
to the hospital and he acts likehe's dying.
The doctor comes in and he says,well, Bo Jack, it looks like you
had a mild anxiety and Bo Jacks like mild.
I'd hate to see what a spicy onelooks like and nobody laughs.

(30:34):
But see that moment right there like that was enough for me to
understand the show. I was like, this guy gets it.
Like he the only way for him to get through this is by self
deprecating. You have to make light of it
somehow because he it's so deeply ingrained in him that

(30:58):
it's, it's just, it's hard. Bojack Horseman.
See, This is why I think depending on the situation, I I
really don't know if there's a better piece of media to ever
deal with mental health. Then oddly enough, a show about
a talking anthropomorphic horse.This show is so profound and

(31:23):
respectful with the way that it handles all of these things.
I have never seen a better depiction of depression or
addiction than Bojack Horseman, and I've never seen a show
that's so accurately captures what it's like to actually try
and recover from all of this. Because similar to what you were

(31:46):
just saying, Bojack would have these periods where it seems
like he's doing better. His life is changing, so to
speak. What, for example, when he gets
the Secretariat role, but then he gets the director fired
because they tried to get that shot.
That director was clearly a stand in for Kathryn Bigelow, by
the way, and. I love it's also, Yeah, but

(32:09):
exactly it's still able to portray like what you're saying,
like these deep messages. Exactly.
But Bojack Horseman beautifully illustrates that recovery from
mental illness is never this nice clean line.
Because in my experience, not just speaking for myself, but

(32:31):
people that I know and people that I've spoken to, they always
assume that it's this nice gradual uphill slope until you
reach this kind of inflection point and everything just kind
of asimatotes upwards. And then you change into this
completely different person and everything is magically better.

(32:56):
No. That could not be further from
the truth, and I think Bojack Horseman is the one thing I've
ever seen to show how up and down, messy, painful, but at the
same time almost elating the process of recovering from any
of this kind of stuff can truly be.

(33:18):
No, I think you're spot. On no, I spoke.
Too long. No, no, no, I was, I was cue
myself from interrupting you because I'm like, yeah, that's a
great point because blah, blah, blah.
Like I wanted to bring up just the the nuances of the show.
And as you said, like for how itlooks, you would think it'd just
be like some goofball show, but it's not it.

(33:40):
It's deep. It has a lot of heart and
emotion in it. Specific specifically, there's,
there is this one scene that's coming to mind right now.
It's, and it's like these little, like just these little
Nuggets that have like little payouts where every episode it
opens where like a view of Bojack's mansion, where he
lives, the Hollywood Hills or whatever.

(34:01):
Yeah. And you see like a monkey
running like up, up and down, like where he lives because he
lives in the hilly area. So you see like his gate and
there's like a monkey running just every day doing his morning
jog. And it's like that for several
episodes until one day I think Bojack just has like a bad day.
So he's just deflated. He's lying on the ground.
I think he tries to go running. No, that's what it is.
That's that's what it is. He tries to improve his life.

(34:22):
So he's like, I'm going to go running.
And he tries running. And he like 10 or 100 meters in,
he's like, like on his back justpanting, dying.
And then the monkey passes him and he just tells him like, it
gets better. It's hard, but every day it gets
better. You just keep on doing it.
And that was beautiful because it was both analogous to him

(34:44):
running, you know, just putting in the work every day.
It's going to be hard, but it gets easier.
Or just every every step of the way, just take it, just take
another step forward. But also just going back to
Thunderbolt, Asterisk, just it every day, it's a constant
battle and it's just taking thatnext step, that next step
forward. And just like those, that little
scene, I was like, that was brilliant, 'cause it was random.

(35:08):
It just shows you're watching the show.
It's just like, alright, a monkey's just running every day.
That's just what he does. And then when it comes to the
moment where he interacts with our main character, Bojack
Horseman, it's like, oh shit, he's dropping some wisdom here
and it's relatable to life. And I'm hearing this from a
fucking monkey wearing like a tracksuit headband.
You know, talking to a fucking horse character.

(35:29):
He's about to go drop a two hour, 30 minute marathon, Yeah.
It's like, no, this show is it'sI we were sitting on the shows
earlier Euphoria and you 13 Reasons why.
And then here here comes the show this cartoon about an A
horse, a horseman character withthis talking animal friends and

(35:52):
other human beings that has a great just the depiction of
mental health because Bojack Horseman is not the only flawed
or. Broken character.
Everyone in the show is in some way a broken.
Person, even Mr. Peanut Butter. Yeah, I have.
I've talked to people who they hate Mr. Peanut Butter, but I'm
like, Nah, I like them because he is someone.

(36:14):
And you see, you see people likethis in real life where tragedy
hits them or something bad happens to them and they just
keep it pushing. Like maybe they are sad about
it. And like, you know, you'll see
Mr. Peanut Butter, he'll be likesad for a little bit, but then
like, they they move on to the next high or then.
And that is a flaw with Mr. Peanut Butter is he never
really, like, sits down and deals with his emotions.

(36:36):
He's just, oh, I got divorced. Yeah.
Like, here's divorce 5, hitting on to the next girl.
Like he just moves on so fast that that's also like a sign of
he's also not well. Like, yes, he's like this uppy
character, but he also has his own inner demons.
And there are a few episodes where he does get deep when he

(36:56):
has like an arguments with Dianeand they're not like these
cutesy little fun arguments. It's like, no, like it's an
actual like how a real couple would argue.
And it's like, where else are you going to see that?
I mean, you'll see that in otherplaces, but just in this fucking
show, damn. It's such a good show.
It is. I'm going to be completely

(37:19):
honest, I hated Mr. Peanut Butter at the beginning of the
show, but it's because he was with Diane and I was a big
Bojack and Diane. Shipper.
Oh man, that's my toxic trait. With the show I I believed in
them so hard. But.

(37:41):
But you know, like BOJ, I mean, maybe Bojack at the end of this,
at the end of the show, maybe that would have been like a good
time for them to date, assuming he didn't go to jail.
Yeah. But as he was throughout the
show, no. And as Diana was like, they were
both. Diane was a very she had clear
issues of her own. Yeah.
Yeah, and The thing is, even though they weren't in a

(38:02):
relationship, Bojack used her ashis emotional crutch and to some
effect. Dan also like uses Bojack to to
enable her. I think by some point in the
show she loses her job and she'stoo embarrassed.
She stays with him. Yeah, she's too, too embarrassed
to tell her husband she stays with Bojack, and Bojack enables
her to just like, you know, be aslob and like, not try to be

(38:23):
better because Bojack is also not trying to just.
Better to be around too. Yeah, same thing with Todd.
He keeps Todd around because as soon as Todd has like an
opportunity to either move out of his house or like be employed
and like actually have like do something with this life, Bojack
sabotages Todd because he wants Todd to stay where he is,

(38:44):
because Bojack is so afraid of letting people go, but yet he
won't admit that. No.
And it's just like Bojack, You Beautiful toxic mess.
You are me back in when one says2018-2019, it was a few years
ago, but I, I saw that I'm like,God damn.
I I relate to this Bojack character a lot.
Nice celebrity lifestyle, but certainly in his mood and his

(39:08):
mood swings and the way he treated others.
I was like damn, you're toxic. And then I saw myself and I'm
like, shit. See, I don't think there's
anything wrong with that though.You can see yourself in a flawed
character or relate to a flawed character.
That doesn't mean that you condone every single thing that

(39:30):
they do. Because like you said, so much
of the Bojack discourse has devolved into the this dumb camp
where you either defend him or you vilify.
Him I defend him and and vilify him I.
Defend him too. But the I the I just think
they're losing sight of what theshow is supposed to be about

(39:52):
like there's so much discussion to be had about Bojack Horseman,
as we're proving right now that they're just getting completely
lost because they're too busy bifurcating the show into this
dumb. I hate to say this again, but
this dumb socio political ideological battle that's and

(40:15):
it's just like guys, that's. You're missing out on so much.
It's I know there are some otherthings we want to talk about
here, but I'm going to say this one back thing it might be.
This is a Bojack episode. Let's stay here for a little bit
longer. Go ahead.
So this so then let me say something.
I I think it's really difficult to pick a favorite season of

(40:39):
Bojack Horseman, but if I had tosix gone to my head, I would say
5 when he's filming Filbert because.
Filbert. Was the TV show it was kind of
his comeback vehicle after sanitary.
Okay, okay, because spoilers forboth horsemen the whole the

(41:00):
whole past 20 minutes in season 5, Bojack starts to film this
show filbert and it's like this hard boiled detective show.
Oh yeah, but. The point of the reason it's so
important to him is because it'shis comeback vehicle.
Because his performance and Secretariat only about 10% of it

(41:20):
was actually him. Remember they they used AI.
Damn, Bojack's ahead of its time.
Yeah, but they used AICGI. Everything.
So Philbert is really important,but throughout the course of
season 5, he's knocking back opioids.
I can't remember if it was Vicodin or what, but then the

(41:44):
show has this incredible episodewhere Bojack is so high out of
his mind on opioids. A common issue with opioid abuse
is when you really start to pushthe dose up there, you start to
hallucinate. And Bo Jack Horseman does this
incredible thing where they haveone episode where it's basically

(42:07):
an episode of a show within an episode of a show.
You can't tell what is Bo Jack Horseman that we're supposed to
be watching and what's Filbert. That whole episode just floored
me for so many reasons. But then the ending of Season 5,

(42:28):
I think to me is the moment thatsticks out the most in the
entire show. Because when Bojack almost
strangles his Co star, that's kind of the moment where he
realizes, oh, something is gottagive here.

(42:49):
And the reason I think that's soimportant is because again,
Bojack Horseman, it does so manythings right.
It just handles all of this so much better than so many other
movies and shows that want to toaddress mental health.
But the reason this is the moment that I will remember for

(43:10):
the rest of my life is because that was the moment Bojack
Horseman hit rock bottom, not just with the addiction, but
because he was about to commit domestic violence.
And to me, the reason this moment is so impactful is
because it is one of the most important lessons I think

(43:32):
anybody in life in their experience as a human being can
learn. If you have any kind of mental
health issues, which is that as terrible as this is going to
sound, do not rob yourself of your divine moment, of your

(43:52):
moment of grace. Because so often what needs to
happen in order for you to change your life is you need to
hit rock bottom. And please do not misconstrue my
words. I'm not saying that.
I hope you become addicted to opioids and almost strangle
someone. But what I'm saying is that so

(44:14):
often when you deal with mental health issues, whether it's
depression, addiction, anxiety, you become so comfortably numb
in the the misery because it's all you know.
It has been proven that mental illness distorts your perception

(44:36):
of time. Your brain physically processes
time slower so that it feels like you were stuck in this
forever, which is why it it feels so terrible.
But so often what needs to happen and this I will admit I
say this from personal experience.

(44:56):
You need to hit rock bottom in order to realize only I can
change my circumstances, which is also to your point, Jesse,
only you can change your life. And so often the only way to

(45:16):
unfortunately reach that mindsetis that the pain of your
circumstances has to overwhelm the fear of change because it's
it's too easy to become comfortably numb, right?
I think Bojack like it does thatthat is his rock bottom.
And you know, this kind of like I, I want to talk about this

(45:40):
earlier, but how about like the,the people who say like you
missed the point about Bojack. To those people, I say to you,
no, you missed the point of Bojack because the point of
Bojack, in my opinion, that we see in season 6 when he has like
when he he, I think he overdoses, he falls into the
pool. So he's he's he's having that

(46:02):
near death experience. And that episode I thought was
brilliant, not only in the way that it portrayed death and like
just what what was going on through Bojack's mind, but like
towards the end where he's talking like, is this it?
Or like he's like, he's just questioning like if this is like
the end or whatever, or like, what does what does anything
mean? And he's seen he's he's

(46:24):
hallucinating his his his old friend who they used to be
friends, but not anymore becauseBojack did him dirty and he was
never able to make up for it before his said friend died.
So now he's hallucinating his friend.
And his friend looks at him and he's like, oh, Bojack, nothing
matters. This is it.
You die and nothing matters. Bro.

(46:45):
Tell me why that hit me. And I was like, you know what?
Yeah. This is where I'm going to
change my life because no, I think that was such a powerful
moment. And it depends on the person you
are and where you are in your life.
When you watch that, when you hear that, hear that philosophy
because it is an existential absurdist or even nihilistic

(47:07):
outlook on life. I think it's it, it leans a
little more nihilistic that episode.
Right, which I personally love because I I like saying this
like this is just me being cutesy, but but like when I'm
depressed, I'm a nihilist. When I'm happy, I'm an
absurdist. So when I when I was watching
that episode, I'm like damn, like it, it it hit me because I

(47:28):
agree like yeah, like nothing matters.
And while nihilistic will take that and just like use that to
either just feed his own toxicity or just like not care
about the world, an existentialist or an absurdist
might take that and be like, well, nothing matters.
So might as well try. Like if nothing matters, then it

(47:51):
then it doesn't matter if I try or not.
Like I might as well try to be happy because like, what do I
have to lose? Nothing matters.
That's all. I personally take it and flip it
again. That's the absurdist to me.
Like, yeah, like nothing matters.
So like just make it, make something matter.
And I think just that episode, that portrayal in media was so

(48:12):
powerful that it's really hard to compare that to anything else
in other like films or medias talking about mental health
because Bojack Horseman, just wow.
That show deserves whatever praise it gets because.
It deserves more praise than it gets.
It that show I, I hope like people remember that one for a

(48:33):
long time because it's done. It's only six seasons, but we
talk about like shows that have legacy.
Like right now, that show came out like five years ago.
Give it 10 years. I really hope that people are
still talking about Bojack the same way that people talk about
like the old media that came outand.
Like The Sopranos. I was gonna say, I guess

(48:54):
Sopranos, freshman to Bel Air and Batman, the anime series
that old Justice League, things like that.
I hope that Bojack Horseman is carried forward into the
discussion regarding mental health and not like shows like
Euphoria or I mean like. If you enjoy Euphoria just like
as a slop show, there's nothing wrong with that.

(49:16):
I'm just gonna say, like, I knowwe're trashing on these shows,
but I do think that these shows are still important to have in
media because even even though like, I'm going to shit on them,
you're going to shit on them. I think it is like important for
just people to see like a depiction of mental health.
I agree. Because I think some shows like
Bojack Horseman, it might not betoo easy to digest.

(49:38):
It's not. It's not accessible.
Exactly. So maybe some show like 13
reasons why it will be easier toaccess and just like get people
thinking about mental health andthe way like either related to
your own life or your friends around you.
But maybe like not romanticize it.
That's for me to like, hey, stopdoing that.

(49:59):
That's a good point. I when you said that, my thought
process was I think we also needshows like Euphoria and 13
Reasons Why because we need examples of bad depictions of.
Mental Health. But I, you know what?
I can understand where you're coming from because honestly, as
much as Bojack Horseman means tome, I would sometimes watch it

(50:24):
in the living room and none of my family could just get into
it. They were just not messing with
it at all, right? And it was.
Don't talk about that when that happened.
I do. I'm not going to lie.
It kind of sucked because I'm like, guys, do you know what the
show means to me? Right.
Yeah. I mean, it's so much to I know

(50:45):
the name of the episode that youreferenced with Bojack Horseman
where he has the near death experience, but it's just
escaping me, right? I know the name of that episode,
but I can't think of it. But the point is, Bojack
Horseman has these crazy episodes that just hit you like

(51:06):
a like a truck, right? And I think I had a very similar
experience to you regarding thissort of like philosophical
ideology shift, but it didn't happen with Bojack specifically.
I was a very proud nihilist for a long time.
Drove my ex-girlfriend crazy. Which one?

(51:32):
Well, how do I say this without?It's OK.
We we love all women. Yeah.
I I'm not trying to put her downit, I'm just saying it did drive
her crazy because I was a genuine nihilist.
The one with the Sailor Moon tattoo on her forearm.
Oh, OK. Yeah.

(51:53):
So we would get into arguments and I would say, you know what,
it doesn't matter. And it wasn't me being
dismissive towards what she was saying.
It wasn't me trying to get out of the argument.
My honest sentiment was on a cosmic scale this does not
matter because you and I are both going to die.

(52:13):
Driver insane. But you can see how like, now
looking back, like, hey, maybe that was a little toxic.
No, I agree that was a terrible thing to do, but damn.
But I get it. No, I understand your point.
Like when you, when you see things through like that frame
if whether it be like through nihilism or depression, like,

(52:34):
yeah, you just have like that mindset where it's kind of hard
to see past your own ego becauselike, yeah, it's all like you're
you're you're internalizing yourown suffering.
So it's hard for you to like seeoutward.
And before the pod started, you mentioned something about the
ego. And I think it'd be really great
for you to expand on that because I know if I try to say,

(52:54):
yeah, butcher it. OK, well this is thanks to my
dabbling in psychedelics and Eastern philosophy, but namaste,
namaste. Yes, you'll, you guys will get
that eventually, but by like episode 30, you'll get it.

(53:20):
So one of the most important lessons I've learned as well too
on my specific journey is that ego is a huge problem when it
comes to mental health issues. And too often when we think of
the word ego, we think of somebody with high self esteem.

(53:40):
We think of the dude bro that thinks he could make an NFL team
if he hadn't gotten injured. Right.
But the ego functions in the opposite direction as well, in
the sense that it takes a massive ego for someone to say I
have the worst life in existence.

(54:02):
Nobody is even capable of understanding the amount of pain
that I go through on a daily basis.
I'm all alone. That's not true.
That's not true. And this is going to sound
terrible, but I'm only saying this because it was said to me.
You are not special. You don't have a monopoly on

(54:24):
suffering. And I think the sooner you were
able to realize that sort of shared human experience of pain,
of suffering, the better you will be.
Because similar to what you justsaid, when you are so ingrained

(54:45):
in these kind of thought patterns, whether it's me with
the nihilism, that still is a function of the ego in some way.
But the problem is when you get so stuck in them, the only thing
you were thinking about is yourself.
And that doesn't have to mean I'm thinking about myself in a
positive light. But when you were able to get

(55:09):
out of your head and acknowledgeother people, acknowledge other
people's struggles or not even, it doesn't even have to be
struggles. If you do something in the
service of someone that is goingto make you feel better because
it gets you out of your head. And I'm not saying this is going
to fix everything, but now I'm going on a tangent.

(55:31):
Now I'm going on a tangent because I, I do have a couple
things that I still want to say about Bojack.
This might be 90% the Bojack episode and then the rest of
what we say, right? But the point is.
Everything you're saying to be tied.
To Bojack, it could, yeah. But going with what you're going
to say, going your tangent. So what I want to say is I'm
sure you know that therapy speakhas been on the rise, right?

(55:54):
And you hear a lot about things like dopamine detox or this
boosted my serotonin. Or the something I hear of the
anxious avoiding or something. Oh, anxious attachments that
like I, I feel like I didn't, I have not seen that language in
the last 10 years. Yeah, up until the last few
years I've been seeing like thatterminology and like, what does

(56:16):
that mean? Like I have to Google these
like, oh, these are real things,people or you just just using
these like a yes. You said therapy talk 'cause it
sounds like, like you just like put people in these categories
and boxes where it's like it's alittle bit more deeper than
that. Yeah, it's.
Yeah, so I hate to break it to you guys, but watching videos of

(56:36):
puppies does not increase your serotonin.
What? Yeah, it might increase
oxytocin, but it doesn't increase serotonin.
But what I want to say is that without the use of a
pharmaceutical like an SSRI or apsychedelic, the one way.

(56:58):
To. Absolutely increase the release
of serotonin in our brains is toexperience gratitude, but not
gratitude in the sense that you're grateful of something
someone has done for you. But let's say you do something
for someone and you were able tovisibly see their gratitude.

(57:20):
That this is scientifically proven releases more serotonin
than anything else we do as human beings.
So again, getting you out of your head and committing acts of
service, if you see that gratitude reciprocated for
anything you've done, that is going to make you feel so much

(57:44):
better. Not just because you were able
to break out of this hyper rigidity of thought or behavior
for even the moment, but becauseit will biologically alter your
brain chemistry. And you can try to come for me
if you want, but I do have an education in science, so.

(58:04):
Right, you know who I can relatethat to, to bring your tangent
back over here. Let's hear it.
You don't like that one little dog from the Poots and Boots
movie? Yes, I was going to Perito.
Yeah, Perito, I'm going to bringit to that one, be back to that
little guy. I was going to bring the.
Last Wish was so good, yeah. I was I was going to bring it to

(58:25):
Bojack, but no, let me let me goover here because he is someone
or like a dog where he has a tragic life.
He was the runt of his family. He was abandoned by his family
or his brothers. And he in his head, he thinks
they're just playing hide and goseek.
I just haven't found them yet. They're so good at hiding ha ha.
And it's like, damn, that's sad.But later on, like the whole

(58:46):
point of like the movie is put apuss trying to get like this,
this the shooting star so he canmake a wish and the puppy like
yes, like the puppy like, wait, what would you wish for
something? He's like, I don't need
anything. I have like you and your other
friend, like I have friends. That's all I need.
And it's like, damn, like this dog, he goes through like a lot,

(59:06):
but he showed through the through the face of all the
adversity he goes through. He just shows such an
appreciation for life. He's grateful for just having
friends and being just being with them.
Or it's like damn, like this dogdon't eat anything else.
This is all he needs, and that makes him happy despite all the
hardships he faces. I read a quote once that said

(59:27):
dogs love more purely and live better in 10 to 12 years than
humans do in 80. Damn.
And you know what? Honestly, I think that's a very
true statement. But to be fair, like are these
dogs are being kept inside or are these the strays?
I assume these are dogs with good homes, right?

(59:49):
Yeah. But not but see, I think that
that that might be a little bit biased because like, well,
they're taking care of. So yeah, assuming they don't
have abusive owners, you're right, you're right.
They're gonna have a, they're gonna have a great.
Time I I understand the sentiment of what it's saying
though, and that dogs are just, they're very present.
They are. Beings.
I had or not me, but my brother,he had a dog and RP one time he

(01:00:14):
hurt his paw or whatever and he he couldn't walk on his paw.
So he would have just walked on three and very quickly, like if
I if if I hurt my hand or my legand I had to be limping, you
know, I'd be grimacing. I'd probably be complaining
about it. Like I, I stubbed my toe or ah,
my fucking foot hurts. I can't walk that dog.
He like he just lifted the paw up.
I think I think it was a hind leg, just lifted A hind hind leg

(01:00:36):
up and just walked the three paws, smiling as he looked at
you like how are you so happy you're injured?
But like dogs, like they, they even if they're in pain, they
get over it real quick and they just look forward.
It's like damn, like dogs. As a dog lover, we don't deserve
dogs. No, we don't.
Like they're just so great. We really don't.

(01:01:00):
They are. There's just something so pure
about dogs because they nothing really matters to them if they
are with the people that they love.
Again, this is operating under the assumption that they have
good homes and right food and all that, but.
But I could be in a relationshipright now and have a dog, and I

(01:01:22):
come home, my dog is going to bemore excited to see me than my
partner. And that's, you know, yeah.
So it's like, ah, damn. Like just the amount of love
that I would have for that dog and a dog has for me.
It's like, you know what, if you're sad, get a dog.
Yeah, and see, I'm not going to lie.
Fuck, I was guilty of that, right?

(01:01:44):
Like I would be so much happier to see Molly than I would be to
see. Her it's because like the dogs
like, yeah, like dogs just love purely Yeah, like even if you
even if you're in a healthy relationship and you come home
to your partner, Yeah, yes, she maybe she'll come and hug you
and kiss you like, hey, welcome home, babe.
But the dog is going to be like on your leg.

(01:02:04):
It's just like it's grazing yourlegs, tail waggling.
It's like, babe, I don't see your ass shaking like that.
The dog is more excited to see me than you are.
But again, that's just because they're dogs are so single
minded and or single like singular they're.
Present. Present and focused.
Yeah, they're focused. All their focus is on you and
it's just great. Makes you feel good by yourself.

(01:02:26):
It really does. I think like that is, I think
some I've seen like that advertisement or just even like
in some articles where, yeah, ifyou're kind of sad, having a pet
helps because one, it gives you something else to take care of.
So it forces you like, hey, I can't just be lying in bed all
day. I got to feed my dog or I got to

(01:02:46):
feed my cat or I got to take himoutside.
So it forces you to just get outof your passive state.
It forces you to, you know. Stay on action.
Exactly. Petting dogs or cats I believe
also does release oxytocin as well, so there's that.

(01:03:07):
That's nice. That was a sweet tension, it
really. Was I really hope that right now
Cass is at home just snuggling it up to his two cats and that
brings them all the serotonin heneeds to come back next episode.
Yeah, you know what? That's a that's a very good
message. I'm going to echo that.
And we look forward to welcomingyou back for episode 12,
hopefully. But there's hopefully.

(01:03:29):
Because only it's one mental. Illness.
That's true. That's true.
That's true. Next week it'd be.
It's true. He can't take another one.
It might be a sick day. We, we can't get we, I mean,
we're already paying him for this, but OK, I'm gonna say one
last thing. Maybe not one last thing about
Bojack. We're gonna circle back to that

(01:03:49):
at the end. I know we are.
We're gonna circle back to it eventually, but Bojack Horseman
has so many good episodes. There's another episode in
Season 3, Piece of Shit, where the entire episode, it's
basically just Bojack in his head, sort of as an abstract
animation. And every single thing he does
throughout his day, he just calls himself a piece of shit,

(01:04:12):
even if it's the most innocuous thing.
And I think that's such an accurate, again, accurate
portrayal of what it's like to live with these ruminative
negative thought patterns. Because when you are in that
kind of mental space, it's so hard to see anything else and

(01:04:37):
anything and everything is your fault.
And you just think, God, I'm such a fucking loser.
I'm such a piece of shit. And I just that episode, I think
that's another stand out for me.But as much as I fond over
season 5 of Bojack Horseman, I think the episode that actually

(01:04:58):
floored me the hardest was Free Churro.
What? Which one was that one?
Spoilers. Again, ladies and gentlemen,
Free Churro is the episode whereBojack gives the eulogy at his

(01:05:19):
mom's funeral. The entire episode is just the
single frame, him giving the eulogy and bringing it back to
this story of getting a free churro.
And then at the end of the episode, we find out it's not
even his mom's funeral. Damn.

(01:05:43):
Oh yeah, I remember. He just been like the whole like
the last 20 minutes of monologuing.
Yeah, yeah. When?
I saw that episode for the firsttime.
I I was both devastated but alsolaughing like you are now.
Like it was the absurdity of absurd.
Exactly. It was so absurd and depressing
and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this show is fucking brilliant.

(01:06:09):
It really. Is.
I think Bojack Horseman is a masterpiece of a show.
It has a master class in storytelling and
characterization. Characterization, themes,
Themes, philosophy. Animation.
And it's also. Really clever with its visual
gags. Yes.
Like as soon as the Holly, the Dof the Hollywood sign comes out,

(01:06:30):
it's just Hollywood. And a minute the characters in
universe call it the Hollywood. Yeah.
And it it has a great internal universe and it's consistent and
it's a great fucking show. It really is and.
I have another show I wanted to talk about that's also great
that also deals with mental health.
But I don't think I think we cando and what we are doing like an

(01:06:53):
analysis of Bojack Horseman because it it it has everything
that we we can say about the subject of mental health and we
can back it up with the Bojack Horseman episode.
Exactly. Because the other the other TV
show I wanted to bring up was Better Cost All OK, which I
think is another masterpiece. It is I, I I know.

(01:07:14):
You're not going to disagree like I I know you agree with me
that it's better than Breaking Bad, both masterpieces.
But I would give the edge to Better Call Saul and I think it
also does a great job, a better job because there is mental
health issues in Breaking Bad, but it's not the focus.
Whereas in Better Call Saul, it is more of a focus and the
central theme of like Jimmy's character, Saul's character of

(01:07:38):
wanting to be a good person, butalways like, you know, falling
back into his toxic ways and hislove interest.
Kim, she is such an enabler and but she also wants him to get
better, but she doesn't know howto, like, reach out to him or to
reach him all the way. And also like Jimmy is all he
doesn't also like he's not always honest with her.

(01:08:00):
So it's kind of hard for her to help him.
And it's just like, you see these, these are really good
portrayals of dealing with the characters with like, mental
health, just of how like they are as people, Like, they're
flawed, but they try to do better.
They fall back, they slip up. But then at the end of the show,
he does try to like Bojack Horseman.

(01:08:20):
He does try to redeem himself and like, you know, be
accountable for like his actions.
Yeah. But I can't pull as many
examples as I took a Bojack Horseman because.
That's a unique example. It's not one that I would have
thought of, but I definitely seewhere you're coming from because
especially there's this element to Jimmy's character that's so

(01:08:43):
layered in with his relationshipwith Chuck and how Chuck is
saying is like the prodigal son,right?
The perfect. And we talk about Chuck, like
even Chuck his own like insecurity.
He's jealous, wanting to care about his own younger brother
actually being someone his own, like Chuck.
He's. Similar to, well, in a way it's

(01:09:04):
similar to Bojack. He wants to keep Jimmy down.
Yeah, because he's afraid that he says it like, oh, Jimmy with
the how was it? Jimmy with the with, with
something like a hammer or something that's fun.
It's stupid. But Jimmy with the law book or
Jimmy with the like with the lawyer license.

(01:09:24):
Oh, that's just, that's a dangerous thing to.
Yeah. And he was right.
Like at the end of that, he was right in terms of, but I also
think he it was a self fulfilling prophecy because if I
think if he would have shown hisbrother the support that he
wanted, because it's like all Jimmy wanted to do was like he

(01:09:44):
took care of his brother. He wanted to be there for him,
like Jimmy genuinely cared abouthis brother and all his brother
wanted to do is just bring him down and like not let him like
just not even be his own person but just be successful.
Yeah. Which I think you can get into
the because at the end I think like later on, he he the Chuck

(01:10:08):
does have a mental illness. The whole he thinks that
electricity effects of whatever,like he he he, it's a disease.
Electromagnetic sensitivity, something like that.
Yeah, hypersensitivity. Something like that.
And it's, and it's something that only he takes seriously.
And Jimmy, to some extent, yeah.And it's just it's a good

(01:10:28):
portrayal of like someone who isclearly intelligent, like you
said, prodigal son. But even he has his own, like,
disillusions or even he's culpable of not always being
mentally Well, Yeah, but I can'tpull as many examples of the
campus Bojack Horseman because God damn, that's such a great
show. Bojack Horseman It is the

(01:10:53):
Seminole mental health show in my opinion, but.
Speaking of mental health, how how was your mental health
during the year where we all have to be locked inside?
You know, I'm going to be honestwith you, Jesse.
Speaking of 2020. I'm going to be honest with you,

(01:11:15):
it wasn't the lockdown that got me.
No, it wasn't. No, I was.
I was perfectly fine with staying at home and not talking
to anyone because I did that anyway.
I had practiced that for seven years prior to 2020.
You think that bothered me? No.
Damn, you were thriving? Sure.

(01:11:39):
Yeah, he was not thriving, No. So 2020, it was a, it was a
difficult year for all of us. I think in many ways I got to
see first hand people deal with some of the stuff that I had to

(01:11:59):
deal with on a daily basis, likethe fear of contamination, of
catching this virus that we knewlittle about at the time, the
uncertainty of it all. When is this going to end, Is it
going to end? Do I have some kind of path
forward and just trying to control all of these variables

(01:12:22):
that are really out of your control.
That was an interesting experience for me.
Right. Not to say it was an enjoyable
one because it wasn't, but 2020 was a difficult year for me like
it was for everyone. But so much of that was for
personal reasons that I am not going to get into here.

(01:12:43):
But suffice it to say I Jesse has some context there that
nobody listening to this will. Well, some of you will, but the
point is 20/20 was tough. It's just not directly tied to
the quarantine for me. My mental health was definitely

(01:13:06):
deteriorating at an alarming rate.
How was yours, man? It was, it was tough.
Well, I guess one for the lockdown, but it was also for me
personally, it was my last semester in college, so I didn't
get to walk or do any of the graduation stuff, which I
didn't, I didn't really care toomuch about, but I know it would

(01:13:28):
have meant a lot to my parents, But so it was unfortunate, but
it was what it was. As you said, I think people were
more concerned about like not trying to catch this virus that
was spreading everywhere. But as it was a lot like cabin
fever. And for me personally, because I
was going to school in San Jose State, COVID happened.

(01:13:49):
I ended up moving back down hereto do just finish my classes off
online. And now my my thought process
was, well, if I'm going to do online school, I don't want to
be in San Jose where the, you know, big, big city where the
virus might catch huge epicenter.
Yeah, that was one thing where once school is over, just the

(01:14:10):
way lockdowns were like, were ineffect, it was a lot of like,
you're just stuck home all day. And for me personally, I don't
mind being at home, but I do like going out and not having
anywhere to go out to, even withjust my friends to hang out.
Oh it sucked. Shout out to my our friend cast
though because he will let us kick it with him or my other

(01:14:35):
friend and we we would just either go to his place and chill
or go somewhere go outside and like either be at a park or
somewhere public where we didn't.
Have to be open air, yeah. Yeah.
And because like, malls were closed.
Yeah, couldn't go to malls. Yeah, couldn't do anything.
So it was just a lot of just being at home there was, there

(01:14:55):
wasn't even a lot of movies or stuff that came out.
No, see, that's that's one thingI was going to say, even though
I made the joke about being a recluse, the one thing that I
did, my sort of socialization was going to the movies.
And since they were all closed, that was kind of the one thing

(01:15:15):
that that was taken away from me.
So it was hard in that sense, but I mean, similar to what you
said, because so much of what I do is contingent on being
outside. I would get up and run anyway
because it's not like I was in close contact with people.
So my routine was, it really wasn't thrown off that much.

(01:15:37):
I would still be able to run. I would work out because I have
a home gym. I don't mess with.
I don't like being around people, not in that context.
I have a home gym, so that kind of stuff was OK for me.
It was. I did lose the socialization
though, like because I couldn't go to theaters and then I wasn't

(01:15:59):
really hanging out with even cast because at one point we
were still hanging out. But then I can't even remember
what it was probably when some of the personal stuff hit me
halfway through the year that I just I had no drive to go out.
It wasn't that I was necessarilyconcerned about the, the virus.

(01:16:22):
It was more so that I just, I lost all the, the drive, the
will, whatever you want to call it, right?
And I would just get up, run, eat, talk to you know who all
day, work out, go to bed, repeat.
Right. No, yeah, 2020 definitely felt

(01:16:42):
like a lot of like rinse and repeat, which like looking back,
it does feel like a blur becauseI feel like 2020-2021, 2022 are
kind of all like melded together.
Not like in an era that I call like, you know, like the COVID
era. Because I think nowadays things
are kind of back to how they were pre COVID.

(01:17:03):
Like movies are open again when people go out and socialize.
But there are a lot of small businesses that closed so during
that time. So there's also like not a lot
of places open as it used to be.And it's just like, damn, it's
interesting how like a virus that a once in a lifetime, as

(01:17:24):
they call it virus can like really?
Well, it was. Statistically speaking, it was a
once in a lifetime pandemic. Right.
But it's interesting how like how that happens and we have we
have the historical lessons or of seeing what happened the last
time a pandemic like this happened.
And we had the lessons of what to do, we just didn't follow

(01:17:45):
them because, you know. I won't get into that.
I'm going off, yeah. Right.
But I, I just bring that up because it's, it's interesting
how like patterns repeat, history repeats and we don't
really learn our lessons. I'm just glad someone else
thinks of time in the context ofpre COVID and post COVID because

(01:18:07):
I I feel like sometimes when I contextualize my life like that
to people they look at me like I'm insane.
I mean, but it was, it is the thing, yeah, this is my life
before COVID and after COVID. Exactly.
And I'm, I just don't understand.
I'm I'm wondering how can you not think that way?
Right, because Speaking of mental health, again, like tied

(01:18:27):
into COVID, not just us, like I'm I'm 30, you're 30.
COVID was five years ago. So it would have been during
our, our 25, we're mid 20s. Yeah.
But recontextualize that to kidsin high school or elementary
school for, you know, 10/11/12. Five years later, there's
15/15/17. Their development during that

(01:18:50):
time during like, you know, online education, having to do
like my sister, she was she was in the process of getting her
teaching credentials. So she had to do like her
because she already she got her degree, but she doesn't do like
her graduate program or I think she got her master's or
something. Being like too post grad.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. To get to become a teacher, you

(01:19:13):
do one year shadowing another teacher and usually that would
have been in the classroom. She was the.
TA. Well, it was all on mine.
Yeah, it was all remote. And you can just hear these.
I can hear a hard laptop, just abunch of kids like, how do you
do this? How do you do that?
How do you turn the phone? Like they, they little kids have

(01:19:35):
to like learn how to use like, well, one kids can learn how to
use technology fast, but they'reputting on a spot where like now
they have to do it in order to get an education.
And I think it really stunted their development that we're
just now going to start seeing the consequences of, which is
why I like, I, I do think there's like a before and after
COVID period because I was in mymid 20s.

(01:19:57):
So while we can talk about the ways it affected us personally,
like at least we were adults andwe can like, handle things.
Yeah. Accordingly, kids and like
people who were younger, they were still developing and so
like they don't didn't have likethe best way of dealing with
things. So I think COVID really like
fucked up things in that regard.So I think like that's why there

(01:20:19):
is I referred to a before and after COVID.
I agree. I think there are a lot of
sociological impacts from the pandemic that people don't
really acknowledge because yeah,of course it's going to stunt
the development, not just for socialization, but because you
need to be around kids your age.But oh man, I I can get into

(01:20:43):
some stuff here. Basically how it affected their
mental health. Yeah, like to just tired of
seeing back to mental health. Like, it definitely affected
them, yeah. You talk about like, like movies
that came out in COVID, nothing came out.
No, it was very few movies. A really trying time for for

(01:21:03):
cinema. Yeah, But it just feels like,
so, you know, like there a lot of people were just stuck, stuck
at home, not much to do. And people wanted entertainment.
And there were, I remember therewere shows and documentaries
that try to cap like, like bringpeople up during those trying
times, IE the Snyder Cut that came out during that time.

(01:21:27):
Because it's like HBO wanted to give out something during, you
know, these trying times. Well, something else that came
out. Dude, do you remember the Tiger
King? Crazy.
I was going to say that I was going to bring bring up Tiger
King, but I was like, but that was not.
That's not directly. No to it at.
All but dude, it was such a it was a phenom for a while.

(01:21:51):
Yeah, like that was a thing, butthat was brought out out of the
lockdown, Yeah. Or not the lockdown.
Sorry, I guess it was the lockdown, but what's the other
one I was going to mention came out during COVID?
Damn, I forgot I'm at the I'm I'm there.

(01:22:12):
It'll come back to me later, butwe'll.
Circle back. Yeah, like those very oh God, I
remember the the music battles, the rap battles.
What was it called? The I forgot what it was called,
but like the rap freestyle, likepeople were trying to like just
find ways to bring entertainmentto people and like keep things
engaged because there was very. Little entertainment, Yeah.

(01:22:35):
Because everything was shut down, Hollywood shut down.
There was some movies that came to streaming and some movies
that were held back not because the director didn't want them to
come out streaming yet. I'm looking at you, Christopher
Nolan. Yeah, Tennant.
Oh, the Tennant thing was a a tough situation because I think

(01:22:57):
in retrospect it's very easy to say Christopher Nolan was way
too stubborn and hard headed with that because he wanted
people to risk their health, in some cases maybe even their
lives, just to watch his stupid movie.
Right. But on the other hand, I get it.

(01:23:18):
It's like, yeah, there is something to be said about
seeing the movie for the first time at the cinema and having
that cinematic experience. I think that that that was why
he was trying. I think that was like the like
that. Was the crux of his.
Argument because I I, I don't think it was a financial thing.
He already made money. It was more like just him as the
artist. Like my movie deserves to be

(01:23:40):
seen on a big screen, not in notstreaming, which is definitely
an ego thing, but. But at this like I agree with
you, I don't disagree with the thesis of his argument.
I am a big proponent of the cinematic experience, but I just
don't think tenet was the right movie for that right?

(01:24:03):
Because it's, it's such a heavy,dense, quite frankly, ridiculous
right? But see, This is why when when
you think of pre COVID and post COVID too, you have to think
about it, especially when it comes to movies.
That's why I, I love Top Gun Maverick every year since it has

(01:24:28):
come out on Memorial Day, which coincidentally is going to be
this weekend, I will watch Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick on
Memorial Day weekend. Nice.
But I think Top Gun Maverick, that is the kind of movie that
people needed in theaters after the pandemic.
That was the, that was the exactright kind of movie.

(01:24:51):
I, I won't spend too much time on this because I, I, we want to
bring up some 2020 specific releases, but Top Gun Maverick,
to me, it feels like the last movie of its kind.
That's why I, it's so special tome.

(01:25:12):
And truthfully, I wasn't even a huge fan of the first Top Gun
the year it came out. I remember they were doing press
about it, releasing the trailersand my parents asked me if I've
ever seen the first Top Gun and I said not really.
And then it was on Netflix. I watched it.
I thought it was cool, but it atthe same time I can acknowledge

(01:25:35):
that some people think it's style over substance.
But then dude, we went to watch Top Gun Maverick.
I mentioned this very briefly inthe pilot episode of the
podcast, but I think Movies Now,they lack sincerity.

(01:25:58):
They just don't believe in themselves.
Like they can't have real emotion without irony.
Everything has to be self aware and undercut with a joke because
they don't trust the audience toembrace real emotion because
they don't want to be seen as like cringe or whatever.

(01:26:18):
Right? When I watched Top Gun, I felt
like I was watching the last Great American blockbuster.
And I don't mean American in thesense that oh, it's patriotic
and embraces nationalism. I mean, it felt like a
blockbuster that was made duringthe 2000s.

(01:26:41):
Because it's not afraid to embrace heroism.
Top Gun Maverick is a movie thatbelieves in the goodness of
people. And obviously, you know me, I
like dark movies. I like, right?
I, I totally prefer sad music. I hate upbeat music.

(01:27:02):
Get that shit out of here. Actually, it's 15.
I am. It's 15.
But you know what? But she writes to pressed music.
You're right. My two favorite Taylor Swift
albums are arguably her saddest,so all right.
Most of which came out during the pandemic, actually.
Oh shit. Yeah.
Nice, Yeah. Good tie in exactly.
Mental health, Top Gun Maverick.It believes that people can be

(01:27:30):
good. It is about a group of people
working together to achieve a common goal, pushing each other
to get better, to grow. And it's it's just the return of
heroic optimism that I have not seen before or since Top Gun
Maverick. And no joke, when that movie

(01:27:52):
ended and they started blaring this Lady Gaga original song
that she wrote just for the movie, I was damn near moved to
tears. Damn.
Because that's like, I don't think people understand how good
Top Gun Maverick actually is. I might sound like I'm
overselling it, yes, but I swearI'm not.

(01:28:13):
That's that's your passion though.
I mean. Because I think you're right,
like if this movie, like you said, like it's, it's an
optimistic movie like this wouldhave been great during the
pandemic when people needed optimism.
And specifically like how you'resaying like this is optimism to
the Max like that what it helps people deal with just being
locked inside very much. But at the same time, Top Gun

(01:28:37):
Maverick is movie theater movie that 100%.
I mean, I have never seen a movie have so much cross
generational appeal. There were people my age, people
my parents age, people my sister's age, and I didn't even
start the standing ovation when that movie ended.

(01:28:59):
The entire theater stood up and broke into applause.
I've never seen that. I mean, yeah, people cheered
during Avengers end game and stuff, but I'm talking
specifically about the end of the movie.
All of these people felt compelled to stand up and clap
for a movie. About fighter pilots, you know,

(01:29:22):
I dig it. I love that.
I mean that, I think that was part of the reason that I was
almost moved to tears as well. It wasn't just the movie.
It was seeing the people's response to this movie.
I mean, this movie appealed to not just cinephiles, but even

(01:29:43):
casual audiences. I mean, I'm tapped into the
cinephile circle and almost every single one of them will
say Top Gun Maverick is one of the best movies post pandemic.
They may. They might not have it as high
as I do, but it's universally beloved.
And then for the average moviegoer, this movie is just a

(01:30:04):
thrill ride from start to finish.
And I think that was part of it too that I saw.
I don't say this in a in a denigrating way, but I saw a
casual people and people who truly love movies respond to
this with so much enthusiasm andemotion.

(01:30:24):
And I I couldn't believe it, right?
See you and what's crazy is thatI think these there used to be
more reactions like that back when like, you know, movies were
good. But you know, since the
pandemic, I'm not even gonna blame the pandemic.
This has been an ongoing like issue for years, like just movie
producers, studios just getting lazier with the storytelling.

(01:30:46):
But as your example, like Top Gun Maverick, that was a great
film. That one inspired people, as you
said, because look, damn, you just give a very impassioned
speech. I know I could actually feel how
like animated I was, right? And like, but that's good
because like that shows like howone, like how much that movie

(01:31:07):
spoke to you and two, like how how what emotions movies can
bring out of us and how we can view them, you know,
contextualize them within. Like, yes, it would have been
better than Tenet had it come out in that period because they
in a lot of ways, like yeah, movies are movies are a conduit

(01:31:28):
for seeing our emotions either through the characters, living
vicariously through them or escaping from our own realities
into like, you know, hey, let's go see some fire pilots.
Go fuck. Shut up.
Yeah. Well, after that, I feel like we
need to, we need to bring it back down a little.
So were there any 2020 movies that spoke to you?

(01:31:54):
No, no. Like there, there are movies in
2020 I saw, but that spoke to me.
No. Can I talk to them?
Can I talk about them? Sure.
But did they speak to me? No.
And I'm going to say this right now, just I don't know.
I have a friend who I don't knowif he'll ever listen to this
episode, but if he does, I just want to say that.

(01:32:16):
Oh, he made sure to listen to the last 1 though.
Sonic sucks. That movie came out in 2020.
Sonic as a franchise sucks. I I don't know why you like it
so much, but apparently you lovethe whole trilogy that is Sonic
and it all started in 2020. So I just wanted to put it on
the record and say that sucks. It doesn't really, but like the

(01:32:39):
movies are goofy and silly. Yes.
But I do love that it features Jim Carrey and Jim Carrey as an
actor is funny, but then Jim Carrey off screen, he's he is
someone who deals with mental health.
And we we can see that in his interviews.
Yeah. And it's, it's interesting
because here you have a depressed individual who does

(01:33:04):
these comedic roles. And there are I think there are
a lot of actors that do that andfits into like a, I don't say
caricature, but like the portrayal of the the the tragic
clown, the tie back to below theline episode 7, the Joker, you
know, just the the depressed clown who has to pretend to be

(01:33:26):
happy. And I feel like that shouldn't
carry in like real life. He's got shit going on.
Yeah, but in the movies and Sonic 1-2 and three as Doctor
Robotnik, Oh my God, he is so whacked it up and hamming it up.
You can tell like he is genuinely having a good time.
Another character who or actor who I don't know.

(01:33:48):
I'm not going to say that he portrays mental health, but I'm
just going to say like he's veryanimated and he brings that
energy. Is Jack Black?
I don't know if you've seen the Minecraft movie I.
Have not seen the Minecraft movie yet.
I don't know if that's a mistakeor not.
Bro, I'm I'm going to go on the record as saying that I only saw

(01:34:10):
the beginning because my brotherwanted to see it, so I took him
to go see it. Jack Black carries that movie.
I believe that. Because Oh my God, it's, it's,
it's like Jim Carrey in Sonic. Because the, the, the, the
premise is so goofy and funny, like it's a Minecraft movie.
But Oh my God, Jack Black, he isso happy with it that it's, he

(01:34:34):
is so extra just if you watch like the first 5 minutes, Jack
Black, he really like hams it up.
And it's like, you know what, I'm here for this.
But another guy that was just a tangent because I I, he reminds
me of Jim Carrey of like his humor in in, in in movies and
stuff like that. But another act I wanted to

(01:34:56):
bring up that he he, he, he, he,he's tragic in real life in
terms of that. He dealt with mental health
issues, but on screen and in media, he was hilarious.
And that's my boy Robin William.All right, P.
Yeah, yeah. If you don't know who Robin

(01:35:17):
William is, he did The Voice of Genie for Aladdin 19919290. 390.
292 if you have. If you're not familiar with that
version of Aladdin and you're only familiar with the remake
with Will Smith, please do yourself a favour and watch the

(01:35:38):
original with Robin William because that genie is so much
better. The movie is so much better.
The Movie. Is so much better too, but just
Will Smith, I'm sorry, like he did not compare it to Robin
Williams portrayal of Genie and that's it.
And it's funny because Genie is a funny character, but Robin
Williams, he was, he was dealt with depression his whole life

(01:35:59):
and unfortunately like he ended up and ended with him taking his
life away. And it's crazy to me that we can
see these actors like they're sogreat at being funny and making
you laugh, but then you don't realize sit, sit behind like the
facade that, hey, they're dealing with issues too.

(01:36:20):
And I think I know Robin Williams has been in other
movies, too. I'm just I'm blanking on another
one right now. Well.
It's a good thing you brought upRobin Williams because it'll
give me a chance to mention one of my favorite movies of all
time, probably in my top ten, ifnot my top five, which is

(01:36:46):
Goodwill hunting over The Batman.
No, not over The Batman. OK, but.
It's somewhere in that. Top, yes, Somewhere in there,
yes. Goodwill Hunting, I think, is a
movie that not only handles mental health really well, but

(01:37:07):
similar to what you were just saying about Robin Williams.
I think it is remarkable that Robin Williams was such a
troubled individual, and yet in my opinion, his best role, he's
portraying a therapist. I think Goodwill Hunting is

(01:37:31):
probably the single best depiction of a client therapist
relationship that I've seen, because I think that's another
thing that media really struggles with, right?
When a character's in therapy, it often feels too much like a
parody, and I don't like that. Right.
I think in Goodwill Hunting everything feels authentic, and

(01:37:57):
Goodwill Hunting comes at mentalhealth from a much different
angle than something like BojackHorseman, but I think it still
handles it very eloquently. I think it is one of the best
written movies of all time, right?
When did it come out? Like in 90s, nineties?
Yeah. Damn.

(01:38:17):
So like right after Aladdin? Yeah.
What's Yeah, what's what's so interesting is that the
screenplay, the original draft was written by Matt Damon and
Ben Affleck. Really.
Yes. Isn't Matt Damon also in the
film? Yeah, he's both of them are
actually. Yeah, Ben Affleck is just in a
supporting role. OK.

(01:38:38):
So they wrote the original draftof the script and when they
tried to shop it, it was originally picked up and they
really wanted to rework the script.
But Ben Affleck and Matt Damon were willing to do that, but
only if they were involved in the production of the movie in

(01:38:59):
the sense that they wanted to star in it.
The original studio said no. Eventually, they found Miramax,
who said they would let them be in the movie.
But the script did undergo extensive rewrites.
But what's I hate this controversy because it comes up
like every 5 to 10 years, someone will come out of the

(01:39:20):
woodworks and say, actually, I wrote Goodwill Hunting.
Like the the version that you saw on the screen that that was
me. Every five years or so, some new
screenwriter will come out and say, I wrote that.
But I still think regardless of what changes were made, you have
to give a ton of credit to Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, who were

(01:39:41):
extremely young when they wrote that movie.
And for it to turn out the way it did is just remarkable.
But Goodwill Hunting it, it comes at mental health from more
of a trauma and anxiety perspective.
I think Goodwill hunting is one of the the better depictions of

(01:40:06):
anxiety that I've seen because it's it really gets into the
weeds about the self sabotage and I think it really ties into
this. Idea Again, I'm going to get
into some science here, forgive me, but when a person is sort of
chronically anxious, they're incapable of feeling love

(01:40:29):
primarily towards themselves, but consequently that does often
result in them sort of blocking a capacity for love for others.
That's not to say they don't care about other people, it's
just really difficult when they are in that state of sort of
constant autonomic arousal. And I think Goodwill Hunting

(01:40:54):
does that beautifully. It's another movie that I think
shows how being in so much pain or so much worry leads you to a
place of just being comfortably miserable and so afraid to make
a change. You know that everything you

(01:41:15):
want is on the other side of uncertainty, but it just feels
impossible to take that first step, and Goodwill Hunting is
all about just getting you to that first step.
The movie doesn't give you this nice clean resolution where
everything changes and he fixes his life.
It just, it trusts the audience to be mature enough to accept

(01:41:40):
its ending. And that's part of the reason I
love it so much. But Robin Williams, his
performance in Goodwill Hunting is, is something that will stay
with me probably for the rest ofmy life, right?
Because like I said, that movie for me is up there towards the
top five. Damn.
Now I gotta watch it. I would definitely recommend you

(01:42:03):
watch. It OK.
I know for as much as I just went on about Top Gun Maverick,
which I do hope you watch. Something like this.
I just got to rewatch Top Gun and then I'll rewatch or watch.
I do hope you watch Top Gun Maverick, but I will say I do
think Goodwill Hunting is probably, it's more of a movie
that you're going to watch and say, oh, I'm going to remember

(01:42:25):
this right 20 years later. OK, yeah, I just want to say on
the record that like this pot already gives me so many shows
and movies to watch. I think.
Like I have a list like at some point I got to watch True
Detective season 1 and CF4, compare them and be like, yo,
let's do a let's let's come back, bring it back one more

(01:42:46):
time. We're a little biased, but
personally I think this episode is quite impeccable.
Oh no, the real 1 is like, I think our once you brought a
Bojack Horseman I was like. But that show is fucking
phenomenal and it's just a greatexample to use in regards to
mental health. It really is.

(01:43:07):
I mean, Bojack is is man, you were right.
We're going to end up going backto it.
But there's there's one more movie that I want to mention
because I feel like so many of our episodes are movie dominated
and this was kind of more Bojackfocus, right?
Which is fine because I do thinkBojack is probably the best

(01:43:32):
example. But what I want to say is there
is one movie that spoke to me ona really profound level as well.
This was in 2018, which again that was during the time of my
never ending crisis also. Before COVID.

(01:43:53):
Yeah pre COVID. Exactly.
The movie is 8th grade. It was directed by Bo Burnham,
who's work as a stand up comedian had already resonated
with me very strongly. Because I think there is
something really unique about the way Bo Burnham approaches
comedy because it's it's very anxious in nature and it's very

(01:44:16):
self aware in terms of the idea of performance for everyone
else. When internally you're you feel
like I got to get out of here. It's just something's not right.
And I think you can see Bo Burnham's sensibilities as a
comedian come through in 8th grade.
But the reason 8th grades start with me so much is because I

(01:44:40):
think it is actually the single best depiction of anxiety in
film ever. Ever.
I've. I've never seen a movie that is
so accurately captures the feeling of this constant sense
of internal dread. In the movie, the main

(01:45:02):
character, Kayla, she doesn't have this big dramatic panic
attack. There's no moment where she's
ever in a state of crisis. But throughout the movie she is
just so constantly uncomfortable.
And the movie communicates that beautifully, not just through
the direction, but through the music, through Bo Burnham's

(01:45:24):
excessive use of close-ups, the music, the editing, and Elsie
Fisher's performance. She was really young when she
did this movie, and she was incredible in 8th grade.
But eighth grade just captures the experience of anxiety so

(01:45:46):
well. And I'm sure there's an added
layer for kids that are that ageif they watch this movie.
Obviously, I was much older whenwhen I watched 8th grade, I was
23. Yeah, 24, one of those.
But the point is there is this fucking devastating scene

(01:46:10):
towards the end of 8th grade where she has a conversation
with her dad and she just asks him if she makes him sad and he
asks why. And she said because I think if
I had a kid like me I would be sad.

(01:46:31):
And it's pretty obvious. The implication is that she's
asking if it's hard for him as her father to watch her
struggle. Damn that movie trashed me so
much. I'm not even trying to be funny
but I will try to play it off with a laugh just to hide my own

(01:46:51):
discomfort. That movie trashed me so much
that I had to wait for the everybody in the theater to
leave because I was just bawlingmy eyes out.
Damn. I could not handle that movie,
right. Yeah.
So you know if. But those are the best kind of
movies, like the movies that canmove you, like literally move

(01:47:13):
you to tears. Like it brought a, if any piece
of media, be it movie, books, comics, whatever, music, if they
can bring out those emotions outof you, it did its job.
Like, it did something. It did something there.
And I did not know that Bo Burnham did a movie.
And I know who he is from his comedy work, but I did not know

(01:47:35):
he did a. Movie.
It's his only project as a director so far.
Interesting. Yeah, OK, see and that's that's
another movie I gotta have to make my ever going list of
movies I got to watch. Yeah, so because of.
Because of my addition to this show.
So I think 8th grade is is another movie that handles
mental health really well, specifically the anxiety aspect,

(01:47:58):
because I think that's really hard to show on screen without
making it dramatic. Because I think most people,
when they think of anxiety, theykind of always assume you're
hyperventilating, you're dizzy, and you feel like you're going
to die, which, OK, those are symptoms of a panic attack.

(01:48:20):
Fair enough. There's a time and place for
that in media to show people what that's like.
But there is just this, this constant discomfort, this
feeling of something just being wrong when you have an anxiety
disorder. And I don't think I've seen
anything portray that quite as well as eighth grade.

(01:48:45):
Damn one thing it also helps that the director like he has
someone who deals with anxiety so he would I think it'd be
easier for him to one direct it and two, just like know how to
capture like that feeling. I agree, because you can
definitely feel how Bo Burnham'swork as a comedian helped him

(01:49:07):
make the movie, which is really interesting because those are
two very different mediums, right?
Yeah. It's always fun or it's always
not funny, but fun to see artists transition into like
other genres or mediums of work.I guess Bo Burnham going from
stamped comedian. I mean, he's probably still
doing stand up. So if we're going from stamped

(01:49:28):
comedian to doing directing a movie, Jordan Peele being a duo
from Key and Peele and then spinning off to be a director.
Which was sketch comedy. Yeah.
And over to horror. Yeah, this is like new medium
and surprisingly doing it reallywell to critical acclaim.
Like it's it's it's part of the artist.

(01:49:48):
Like branch out and do somethingdifferent?
I agree. Earlier in this episode you
mentioned Taylor Swift. I was a Swifty.
And it's true. I am a Swifty.
I I, I be Swift and but I managed to go to the Airs tour.
Don't ask me how. You knew someone.

(01:50:11):
You knew someone. You could say that.
So there I just. I'm gonna let you finish, but
no, I'm kidding. I see what?
I see what you did there. Shout out to Kanye.
Yeah. Shout out to Kanye or No?
Shout out to Kanye. But just saw someone who I'm

(01:50:33):
not, you know what? No, I'm going to tie this in.
I'm going to tie this in to Bojack.
Just watch me. Kanye West is a genius.
I in my opinion, but he is also someone who struggles and deals
with mental health issues, whichat the end of the episode, I
said my thesis statement or the way I, I was going to approach
this episode was it's OK to be sad or it's OK to have issues,

(01:50:54):
which Kanye West clearly has, but he's also responsible for
like getting help and trying to fix himself, which he's clearly
not doing and tied in back to Bojack.
Like he has people who are enabling him instead of like him
actually trying to like get his shit together.
Yes, he's dealing with shit. That's understandable.

(01:51:16):
It's OK to be sad. It's OK to be depressed.
It's OK to have all these issues.
But Kanye is a great example of like, hey, this is someone who
he's not trying to get better. You did make that work.
I did shout to Bojack watching see, like Bojack horseman.
It's a fucking great show and I think that if if you walk out

(01:51:39):
from all the movies that didn't just listed today, if you walk
away from this episode and then just go, you know what, I should
watch Bojack Horseman, then we did our job.
I agree. And if you happen to watch Top
Gun, Maverick or any of the movies mentioned, cool, but
Bojack Horseman that is like theperfect is.
Genuinely a masterpiece. Yes.

(01:52:01):
And for this episode specifically, talking about
mental health, that episode or that TV series, if this is the
class assignment, that'd be homework.
Yes it would. Extra credit would be goodwill
hunting. Yeah, it's great.
And extra, extra credit would betalk of Maverick just because I

(01:52:21):
I do think. We all need.
Optimism. It is the last embrace of like,
classic Hollywood that I've seen, right?
Very briefly, all I was going tosay is that yes, my two favorite
Taylor Swift albums are Folkloreand Evermore, both of which were
released in 2020. And I know we wanted to talk

(01:52:44):
about movies that came out in 2020 that maybe helped allay
some mental health struggles people may have had or that we
may have had, but there weren't many.
But that's tough because there weren't a lot of movies.
Yeah. But the reason I want to bring
this up, even though it's not movies, is because the one thing
that did help me was those two Taylor Swift albums, right?

(01:53:06):
Because those are the two saddest Taylor Swift albums.
And it was, in my opinion, Folklore and Evermore are the
artistic and lyrical peak for Taylor Swift's entire career
thus far. I don't think she's come even

(01:53:29):
remotely close to matching thoseheights since.
Why she doesn't just rerecordingher albums now?
That's true, which don't get me started on that because I
actually get it. I have a differing opinion on
that from the other Swifties. Oh oh, OK damn, so you're not
die hard Swifty. You're you're a Swifty with

(01:53:51):
nuance. Yes, exactly.
Because I'm a human being. I'm complicated.
Oh. Bojack Courseman reference.
But those two albums, they spoketo me in a way that no other
Taylor Swift music ever has. And no, I do not think you need
to be a teenage girl to like Taylor Swift, obviously.

(01:54:15):
But right, for Taylor Swift to finally, you know, make music,
that was just devastating, like,heart wrenching about real shit,
not just relationship issues, right?
That to me, gave me so much solace during a time where I was

(01:54:40):
just really going through a lot of personal stuff.
Yeah, the pandemic and all that extenuating circumstances didn't
help, but it was really the personal stuff.
And those Taylor Swift albums, to this day, I, I really can't
listen to them without it bringing back this kind of

(01:55:01):
nostalgic melancholy. Yeah, it's not the good kind of
nostalgia, but it's, it's definitely nostalgia, right?
So, yeah, I, I, you know, it's, it's just, it's really weird.
What can help a person? Well, not weird because I, I do

(01:55:22):
think art, like you said, is part of its function is to help
people make sense of their experience, to help them process
their emotions. I do believe that.
Right. And music is like, besides
movies, music is a huge way of like the way that people see the
world. Because prior to movies we had
music and like prior to prior torecorded music, we had like, you

(01:55:46):
know, songs that were passed down, folk songs and then prior
to folk songs, like what was theart?
What was the medium before? Like that would have been just
like K paintings or just like picture drawings, just art in
general. And I think like that's the
that's the beauty of art and like what it can do to a person
and what it can mean to a personbecause we can both watch Top

(01:56:07):
Gun Maverick and I can we can both walk away completely like
having different taking over, taking different things from
that movie. That's that's why I think these
conversations are worth having and that's why I started the
podcast. Like I said in the last episode,

(01:56:28):
someone said they watched True Detective because of the show
and that made me feel good. That was a nice feeling and true
story guys. This past weekend, someone
walked up to Jesse and said he was a fan of the show.
That did happen. So hopefully you took something

(01:56:51):
away from today's episode. I think we covered pretty much
everything we wanted to. Actually, I think we did, unlike
last episode. Yeah, unlike the Snyder episode,
we left so. Much out right, I think we hit
all the notes we wanted to with this episode.
We did obviously well, we had our labs, but I think at the
core, at the core this. Is a sincere episode.

(01:57:15):
Yes, at the core crux of my argument, my thesis from like
just talking about mental healthis while actually not even a
while, actually yes. While while we may make jokes or
you self depreciate any humor, Ithink my point is still stands.
And what I'm trying to get across is that your emotions are

(01:57:36):
valid, but as Dylan would say, like, your emotions are not like
the center of the universe. Yeah, I I think we covered a lot
of good things here. And the one thing I do want to
say real quick, even though there weren't ton of movies in
2020 is 1 movie that really spoke to me during the pandemic

(01:57:59):
was the kid detective. We can get into it on a
different episode. But just briefly I'll say if my
favorite archetype of a character is the depressed,
lonely male grieving protagonist.
My my second favorite archetype of a character is the sort of

(01:58:23):
repressed genius protagonist who's kind of a fucking loser.
And that's really what the kid detective is about.
It's a guy who became so identified with the glory days
of his life that when he became divorced from that identity, he

(01:58:43):
felt like he had not only no sense of purpose, but he lost
his sense of self, and that resulted in some mental health
issues. So I think the kid detective is
a good example of why it's a little dangerous to marry
yourself to the certain aspects of who you think you are.

(01:59:07):
They might be aspects of who youare, but that's not the entirety
of your being. And lastly, I know a lot of
people like Palm Springs during the pandemic because they felt
like it gave them a sense of routine and comfort because it's
it's a it's a time loop movie, right where they're constantly

(01:59:28):
reliving the same day. And a lot of people really like
the movie when it came out, I thought it was fine.
It was a fun time, but it's not really something I have a desire
to revisit. But if you should watch it for
yourself and make up your own mind.
But other than that, I think we have covered everything.
And like Jesse said, I hope thatdespite the jokes, despite the

(01:59:52):
the self deprecating humor, thatyou know this came from a place
of sincerity this episode. Yes, and if you are currently
going through any personal struggles, feel free to lean
into your friends, use your support system.
If you if you do not have a support system, make one.

(02:00:14):
And then like I know that soundstough.
Be if you're like in a bad mental state, you know, reaching
out to people and trying to haveothers help you.
I know that sounds tough coming from me right now if you're in
that state, but trust me, you can't carry the burden alone and
it's OK to ask for help. I agree community is one of the

(02:00:38):
biggest determining factors in recovery for mental health
issues. And I will just add on to that
by saying earlier in the episode, Jesse said one of the
better things you can do is to sort of take action, which I
know it's, it's hard to break out of these thought patterns or

(02:00:59):
behaviors that you might be stuck in.
But this is my recommendation. If anybody is going through a
hard time, you will hear a lot of stuff on TikTok or YouTube,
these Wellness influencers, they'll talk about things like,
oh, make your bed, Just make things simple.
This is my recommendation to youbecause it has been the single

(02:01:21):
most transformative thing in my entire life.
Run and don't. Don't worry about anything.
Don't worry about the shoes. Don't worry about a watch.
Don't listen to these people on social media.
The best pair of running shoes is the shoes that you already

(02:01:42):
have. Put them by the door.
Wake up, do what you have to do.Put your shoes on, walk out the
door. Run for 10 minutes.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
Run for 10 minutes and then do it again the next day and then
do it again the next day and just see how you feel.

(02:02:02):
That is my that is the single best piece of advice I can give
you. And I know that sounds pithy in
its own way because not everybody can run for 10 minutes
straight. I understand that.
I'm sympathetic to that walk move.
That's really what I want to communicate here.

(02:02:25):
I could go on an entirely different monologue about
running, but I won't. But I will just say, running is
not a physical journey, it is a spiritual journey.
And if you devote yourself to the process, running will show

(02:02:47):
you who you are in a way that nothing else ever will.
Damn that that's not profound. I like that.
I like, I like your theme. Like just move like that.
That's great. Like if you don't have a dog so
the dog the dog won't move so you.
If you don't have a dog to take care of, yeah, like.

(02:03:08):
You got to move your own ass. But no, that's great.
Well guys, thank you for tuning in to Below the Line podcast
episode 11. Hope you guys had a great time
listening in. Hopefully we'll have cast back
to bring back his trollish nature and antics that will
really, you know, make the show where it is.

(02:03:29):
Yes, thank you for listening, everybody.
I hope that you were able to take something away from today's
episode, if not a genuine life lesson about mental health, then
at least a movie recommendation that may help you get there.
Yes, So thank you for tuning in.I would just like to say, even

(02:03:56):
though this feels like a really terrible thing to shoehorn in in
this episode, subscribe to the YouTube channel at Nightfall
Films. You can find us on Tiktok with
the same handle. And of course, the best thing
you can do to support the show is follow us on Spotify.

(02:04:19):
Other than that, we will catch you next time.
Peace plants, not to say.

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