Into the Snyder-Verse

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:16):
Be inspired to do things differently.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the show.
This is Below the Line podcast brought to you by the nobodies
of Hollywood. I'm Dylan and today I am joined
by. Jesse and to my right.
Yep, cast. What's up guys?
Episode 10. This is a milestone.

(00:39):
Remember what I said last episode?
93% of podcasts don't make it past 10 episodes.
We're the 7%. Yeah, exactly.
Just wait till #11 when we're all going to be here and just
continuing and off and just going on to the next episodes
because you that will just show that we are committed to keeping
this podcast going. I'm sensing a little

(01:01):
foreshadowing in your tone of voice.
Right there. I guess he's going to die next
week. Oh shit.
That's. Right turn.
Yeah. Damn.
Damn. The point is, today is a
celebration. We're going to have fun.
I hope you have fun, too. We have something special

(01:21):
planned, but we're not quite there.
Today's episode is going to be nice and slow.
It's going to be philosophical. It's going to be.
Deep. The room is going to be full of
Shades of Grey and blue and I hope everybody before you sit

(01:43):
down to listen to this. Both men and women went to the
gym, got a sick muscle pump downaway protein shake.
Because we are talking about none other than Zack Snyder.
I've been preparing myself for this episode for the last three
weeks. Cute Batman workout scene?

(02:04):
Yeah. I feel like I was been after,
like, you know, just like movingthat tire around, you know, just
hitting it with the hammer. Smacking it with the
sledgehammer. Yeah, that was me.
Doing weighted pull. Ups.
Yep. Now, these are all metaphors for
me trying to get through all these, all these Zack Snyder.
Films because it's just as difficult.
Yeah, because I I try to watch everything.
Zack Snyder and I, I wish I could say that I did it, but I

(02:27):
am. Sadly I didn't get that final
pump in. I'm missing 3 movies guys.
Like OK how many movies has he made?
1-2 We have a whiteboard right here. 123456789101112 movies.
God damn I've only seen nine. That's a good amount, I think it
is. Hold on, let me.
See, I think it prepares me for this episode. 1.

(02:49):
It definitely prepares you for. This Oh, I've only seen nine.
I've only seen. What's crazy is I have seen all
of them except for Rebel Moon. Because I haven't seen the
director's cut of Rebel Moon. Yeah, I haven't either.
And I haven't watched Part 2, sothat's where I'm at.
But because you brought up the filmography, I think an

(03:10):
appropriate way to start this episode would be discussing how
each of us were introduced to the man, the myth, the legend,
America's very own Himbo auteur Zack Snyder.
What was your guys's introduction to Zachary We're.
Gonna start off with me, OK? My first, the first movie that I

(03:31):
ever saw was Donna the Dead. For those that you did that
don't know, and you probably do know, it's probably one of his
best movies because it wasn't written by him.
I guess you could say shot. Fired already.
Recreation of the previous Dawn of the Dead by the same name.
In what year was it 1970? It was in the 70s.

(03:53):
I think it was 76, Don't quote me on that, but it was
definitely directed by George Romero.
Yeah, quote him on this so. Yeah.
Please, Snyder. 'S remake of that movie and it
is like night and day the difference, which is interesting
because you know it's it was black and white and this next
one is in color and story character is completely

(04:17):
different right theme is different I'd say.
I think it was done differently.Yeah, completely differently.
Yeah, they were doing their own take on it.
And honestly, it was one of like, in that time frame, I very
much loved it. It was one of my favorite movies
before that time. And I was introduced into more
movies and, you know, and stop being my favorite because I was,

(04:42):
I saw a lot of better movies. Yeah.
But still, it it it has a place in my heart as not not because
it was not my first Snyder movie, but because I enjoyed it
when it came out. Right.
My first movie was 300. You know, fucking this, this off

(05:02):
camera, you can't see that. But I just shoved Victor like
off the chair. He's on the floor right now,
withering in pain. Get the fuck back up.
I'm kidding. I'm hugging him.
He's a great guy. He's lying still on the ground,
but OK, No, might have. To edit that out.
No, keep it in. But my, my objection was 300 and
I, I that was probably my favorite Zack Snyder film up

(05:25):
until I started watching all those films and I'll reveal my
favorite later. But 300 was what got me in and
that movie early on, it was the second movie ever.
And it has all the characteristics of Zack Snyder.
They're, they're in 300. It's just the movies that are
are coming out now. They're just more refined

(05:46):
versions of it. But the slow MO, the, the cutter
desaturation grading, the, the fight scenes, the epic battles
and all that, that was in 300. And I like the, I like the movie
that that was my new direction to Zack Snyder.
After that, I think I watched Man of Steel and I was like,
yeah, no, you're losing me. Here's that.

(06:08):
That just reminds me of something.
Did Snyder not direct the 2nd 300 movie?
He was just the producer, yeah. Which is why it's the worst
movie. All right, My introduction to
Zachary Edward Snyder, believe it or not.
Damn. You use the garment too.
Was Watchmen. What?
Yes, really. Yes, the.

(06:30):
Film Snob. Dylan.
Yep. His introduction to the Zachary
Edward Edward Snyder, Edward Snyder.
He wasn't always a film snob, you know, He was very pure back
in the day. That's.
Crazy. I don't know about that.
I don't know about that. My introduction to Zack Snyder

(06:50):
was in fact, Watchmen, and I'll tell you why.
It is because they aired the trailer for it before The Dark
Knight almost every single time.And I watched The Dark Knight in
theaters a few times. Not as much as I watched The
Batman. I watched it more than once, and

(07:11):
for some reason, I think I was so into The Dark Knight and what
that brought to the table at thetime that I was drawn to
Watchmen because they were very much trying to sell it in a
similar vein as The Dark Knight,right?
So Watchmen was my first Snyder movie and when I first watched

(07:35):
it I didn't like it. Yeah, didn't you mention I think
you either you mentioned it in the previous episode or like off
off the pod where Christopher Nolan basically like he blessed
Zack Snyder to make this film because like Watchman is
basically The Dark Knight, like the may not thematically, but

(07:55):
just the way it's it's trying tobe gritty.
The Rorschach Batman parody voice.
Yes. So I think that when we talk
about the legacy of The Dark Knight, I think we need to be
fair and acknowledge the nuance,which includes that The Dark
Knight has harmed the comic bookgenre in some way.

(08:19):
And part of that harm is encouraging Zack Snyder to run
with the dark and gritty tone because he took, along with
Warner Brothers, all the wrong lessons away from The Dark
Knight. And it eventually led to not
only Watchmen, but Zack Snyder'sDC EU, which I think so much of

(08:44):
that was informed by what he didwith Watchmen.
Yeah, I think everything that the DC EU ended up becoming
being like spearheaded by Zack Snyder was basically influenced
by The Dark Knight, which you know, if you think about it,
it's kind of meta that like The Dark Knight, it live long enough

(09:06):
to become the own villain. Basically all these studio and
directors. Live long enough to find this.
Yeah, so be. Hard because, like, I love The
Dark Knight and I think it's a great movie still, but it's
doing the same. Like if we talk about the nuance
of what it did and all the wronglessons that studios and
executives and directors took from it, Yeah, like that film

(09:27):
live long enough to become its own villain.
It certainly did. So yeah, that was my
introduction to Zack Snyder. And it wasn't until after that
that I watched 300, and I know that was very big at the time,
especially with people our age. I could not get into 300.

(09:50):
Bro what? Really, Really.
I could acknowledge that it was revolutionary in terms of how it
was shot and the way that Zach visually adapted comic books,
but for obvious reasons, the agewe were when 300 came out,
people liked it because of the action, because of the hyper

(10:14):
masculinity of it all. I just could not get into the.
That didn't draw you in. No hyper.
Masculinity. The 300 workout that was created
by Hollywood trainer Mark Twain and consists of 200 repetitions
of the same exercise, the same the same Mark Twain that adhered

(10:34):
to the philosophy that appearance is the consequence of
fitness. And that's what all the that's
why all the actors in 300 were so ripped.
That didn't inspire you? No.
Damn. Guys, and like, Dylan's ripped
and he's saying this film didn'tinspire him.
You know they well they had spray on tongue.
Well, I was so young that I wasn't inspired to be ripped.

(10:56):
Damn. All right.
OK, you know, I'll give, I'll give you that.
Because if you watch the Watchman first and then you go
to 300, Yeah, like, obviously you're much older, so your
perspective is gonna be more nuanced and different.
But if you have watched it at the time.
Maybe I would have started working out sooner.
Yeah, funny story, this is not related to Zack Snyder at all.

(11:18):
But it is now. I first started lifting weights
for the role of Hamlet. Hey I just remember in English
class that we read it was that he was described as fit so I was
just trying to get into character.

(11:38):
You know what Dylan? He is a method actor if nothing
else. Like back when you 'cause you
took drama. Right.
I did the accent and everything,yeah.
Yeah, he, he he is a method actor in real life and in and in
dramas. Like right now he's method
acting as a film snob who hates Snow White.
Like I said in the previous Oh, here we go.

(12:01):
I'm kidding. I'm not, I'm not.
I'm kidding, guys. All right, so this is the Zack
Snyder episode, and we obviouslycan't talk about Zack Snyder
without acknowledging so much ofwhat he brings to the cinematic

(12:21):
landscape, which, oh, there's a lot you can say about that.
Yeah, right. So give me your thoughts on Zack
Snyder now that you have much more exposure to him.
I think it's crazy that he has. There's a cult around him.
But that being said, I think I like more of his movies than I

(12:43):
dislike. Really.
Yeah. Like, I'm looking at this list
like, let's let's run through them.
Donald the Dead loved it. 300 loved it.
Watchmen loved it. Such a punch.
Loved it. Actually Man of Steel wasn't a
fan legends of Guardians I was of.
Gahul shout out to the gahul again, Hoot.
Didn't see it. Batman versus Superman, I didn't

(13:04):
care for it. Justice League, the Josh Whedon
one. Didn't care for it.
Justice League, the Snyder Cut, I fuck with it.
Army of the Dead, I like it. And then obviously I haven't
seen Rebel Moon, but I think I like more of his stuff than I
dislike. I think the the two of that I
dislike are basically just Man of Steel and Batman versus
Superman and I guess the JusticeLeague the the Josh Whedon cut.

(13:27):
But when he when they redid the Snyder cut during COVID, I was
like, you know what, this film is just so Zack Snyder that he
is giving it his all in this movie that I can't be mad at it.
Is it what I want to see in the Justice League?
No, no, it's not. But this is the DC EU that we

(13:48):
got. So I would have been interested
in seeing where his universe would have gone after the Snyder
Cut of Justice League, but we'llnever know.
I think I was in a very similar position because I obviously
detested Man of Steel and BVS, but by the time the Snyder Cut
came out, I had matured. I had gone through some things

(14:11):
in life that by the time the Snyder Cut came out, I just kind
of accepted. Zack's interpretation of these
characters is not for me. It never has been.
The only thing I can do is watchthis version of Justice League
as a Zack Snyder movie, and thatmade it so much more enjoyable.

(14:34):
But I think it was also propped up by the fact that 2021 was
when you started to see the decline of Marvel and this
homogenization of filmmaking by Kevin Feige and all those people
at Marvel Studios. So when I saw a movie that was
actually made by a filmmaker that had voice and passion, I

(14:57):
just naturally gravitated towards that.
To me, I enjoyed them as long asI didn't read too much into
them. I enjoyed the ride.
I, I just sat back and enjoyed the ride because when I did
start trying to read into them, like I did that forever Moon, I
had a bad time. I, I was not enjoying myself at

(15:20):
all. But sitting back and just
watching it, it's like not focusing it too much.
It's like having the background.I enjoyed it a lot more all his
other movies because I found outwhen I was watching it.
I'm trying to figure out what hewas doing, reading into it.
I paused it not to like capture a scene, but to take a break.

(15:45):
I, I, I, I, I abused that pause button when I was watching
Rebel, but when I was watching his other movies, I was watching
Watchmen. I, I did not pause it as much as
I did for as I was watching Watchmen and all his other
movies that I was catching up on.

(16:06):
I always just like thinking, youknow what, let's just enjoy the
ride, appreciate them for what they are rather than reading too
deep into them. Because just look at it on a
superficial level and see if they're entertaining because
that's what movies are supposed to be, entertainment.

(16:26):
And when I I saw it like that, even though I wasn't, I'm pretty
sure Zack Snyder did try to put on a deeper level.
When I didn't try to look at it at a deeper level, I enjoyed it
a lot more than I did. Yeah.
And I thought I would. I don't think Zack Snyder makes
deep movies. And I think if you go into a
Zack Snyder film knowing that this is not going to be some

(16:48):
philosophical meta commentary about life or whatever, you're
you're going to have a better time with these, with these
movies. I, I think Zack Snyder can be
clever in his, in the way he like films or he does the
storytelling. I think he can be clever
sometimes, but in terms of deeper, like like like a super

(17:10):
symbolic or in depth meaning to his films, I don't think it's
there. I just think you like, as you
said, like it's entertainment. He's he's got a very particular
style and he sticks to it. And like I like I said, he he he
can be clever sometimes, but think you're going to watch the
Zack Snyder film, you're going, you're watching it for like his
cinematography style and just entertainment value.

(17:32):
You're not watching it for the characters.
I would agree with pretty much everything you just said, but I
think it's interesting that you said Zack Snyder does not make
deep movies. I think that is one of the
biggest issues with Zack as a filmmaker.
Zack thinks he makes deep movies.

(17:54):
The one consistent through line that you see in all of his
movies is they all have this element of pseudo intellectual
philosophy. He is trying so desperately to
comment on something, but he remarkably fails to find the

(18:17):
language to say anything at all.Do you think he started doing
that like post Watchmen or before like or do you think
since Dawn of the dead he's beentrying to like have a meta
commentary about the human condition or something?
I'm glad you asked. I think this gun has been an
issue. No, because I I think if you

(18:40):
compare Zack Ston of the Dead tothe original, it's very bad.
I think this has been an issue for Zach's entire career because
even Dawn of the Dead, even though Zach did not write that
movie, it's clear to me that he misunderstood the original Dawn

(19:02):
of the Dead, which I think is quite ironic because that's
going to be a recurring theme for some of his movies and.
That's how he started his career.
But the point is, Zach did not understand that the original
Dawn of the Dead was supposed tobe a social commentary on
consumerism and how that makes us all zombies.

(19:26):
Oh. Zach that's made his.
Dawn of the. Dead.
Exactly. Zach made his Dawn of the Dead
as Isn't this cool? Which it was and.
You can see it in the framing. You can see it in everything
that's being presented to you onscreen that Zach does not

(19:50):
understand what the original wastrying to say.
I may be confusing my zombie There's Been so many because I
don't remember the original Dawnof the Dead taking place in a
mall, so I'm wondering if I'm confusing with another zombie
movie from back then. You probably are.
Yeah, there's been. I've seen so many trying to

(20:11):
remember. But have you seen so many if you
forget about them already it. Was an old one.
It was black and white too. If a tree falls in the forest,
what's that one? What's that one zombie movie
that ends with? Training with someone like.
No, no, it the last scene is they old zombies are attacking a

(20:32):
house and. World War Z.
No. That's what I was thinking too,
honestly. Really.
They're attacking a house. The Walking Dead You.
Know what? I forget.
You keep interrupting and I keepforgetting because I'm
struggling to remember. If the zombie movie you're

(20:53):
talking about is not Zack Snyder's zombie movie, are you
really talking about zombie movies?
You have the white boy right there.
You have two zombie movies to pick from A talk about only
those two. All right.
Unless you want to draw parallels about how like Zack
Snyder didn't get down the dare and how was the social
commentary of Dylan Hussein. Well.
The reason I bring that up is because the most formative movie

(21:18):
of Zack Snyder's career, I wouldargue, is Watchmen.
But there is a huge fundamental issue with that film, and it is
that Zack did not understand thegraphic novel.
There is such an extreme disconnect between the text of

(21:40):
Watchmen and the framing. The way that Zach shoots
Watchmen is he is glorifying theviolence.
He is fetishizing the very act of heroism, of vigilante
justice. And the issue with this is that
the entire point of the Watchmengraphic novel is to try and

(22:05):
communicate to the reader. Wouldn't this be fucking
terrible if people were actuallylike this?
It is counterintuitive to try and combat violence with more
violence. It's counterintuitive to try and
stop crime by committing more crime.

(22:27):
And so much of the violence in the graphic novel is portrayed
as messy, ugly, dirty. They're really getting down in
the mud. And the way that Zach shoots the
action scenes, it's stylized, it's cool, it's sexy, it's hyper
choreographed. Right now I agree with I.

(22:50):
I'm coming from the perspective of someone who has not read the
graphic novel, but in preparation for this episode, I
watched Watchmen 3 different times.
I watched the theatrical, I watched the director's cut, and
I watched the ultimate cut. So in watching all those
versions, I, I, I see your view of how Zach missed the point

(23:11):
because this movie is basically stylized action stylized like he
saw, he, he, he, he saw the graphic novel and he was like,
yo, this graphic novel is just glorifying sex and violence for
a superhero like comic book. Fuck it, I'll do it.
And he missed the mark completely.
That being said, I just thought about this right now as you as

(23:34):
you were talking, couldn't we say the same thing about the MCU
of how the the movies don't follow the comic books exactly.
So you can't have to treat it asits own universe.
I think to give Zach like a little bit of like leeway, we
can't have to treat this as its own little universe.
And that's something that I mean, yes, we're going to.
Compare it to the last. Novel no, but.

(23:55):
You mean I? I thought you were talking about
the DCU, not Watchmen. No.
Well, Washington specifically because yes, while we're we all
agree that he, Zack Snyder missed the point of the graphic
novel, I think we should also give him like some leeway and
just talk about it or talk aboutit from the perspective of it's
its own thing. Similarly to how we did Nicki 17
earlier and we just talked aboutthe movie as it was and not

(24:15):
comparing it so much to the book.
I think we should try to give Watchmen that perspective
because we can shit on Watchmen all day.
Which you can actually listen toon the Patreon exclusive episode
that was recorded prior to this plug, guys.
Plug. That's right everyone, we have a
Patreon and we would love if youcame over to support us where

(24:39):
you will find an extra hour. One might even say a Snyder Cut
of this episode. Where I dive, where we dive
deeply into Watchmen. But now that we're coming from
that conversation, I was thinking like, yeah, we we're
going to compare it to the graphic novel a lot.
Maybe that that might not be toofair to this discussion of Zack

(25:00):
Snyder, because we can say that about all his movies.
Like he missed the mark on all of them.
Well, yeah, because like, most of his movies are adaptations of
another, Yeah, if not a novel, another movie, Yeah, where the
only original movies he has are.Sucker Punch and Rebel Moon.
Army of the Dead 2. And Oh yeah, Army of the Dead,

(25:21):
which I did like. Not as much as Dawn of the Dead,
but I did like that. One, I understand where you're
coming from in regards to treating Watchmen as its own
thing. I think the reason I have a hard
time with that is because the graphic novel is seen as such a
Seminole piece of work for the medium of comic books.

(25:45):
It acts as this major point of deconstruction of comic books
themselves. And I said this in the Patreon
episode, but I'll say it brieflyjust to give you a teaser, maybe
entice you to go listen to that Patreon episode.
Go for it is. I think if Watchmen, the film

(26:07):
had come out later, say 2015, 2016, it would have been much
more successful. I think it would have resonated
with people more because Watchmen was released in 2009,
before the comic book movie bubble.
So we didn't quite have that same level of exposure with the

(26:31):
MCU, with the beginnings of the DC EU.
And so I don't think the deconstructionist elements of
Watchmen, the ones that are included in the film anyway,
work quite as well as they should have.
I think the reason you kind of walk away from Watchmen now
liking it is because you have seen the MCK Point, you have

(26:55):
seen the fail the DC Extended Universe, so you have a better
knowledge of the comic book movie genre.
Whereas when the movie was initially released, it was
pretty much still in its infancy, right?
So I think that is a huge sort of knock against the Watchmen

(27:16):
film, which I admit that's out of Zach's control.
Yeah, obviously. So it's like an.
Inverse 300 for you like, hey, hold on, I watched Watchmen at
the right time. You watched 300 at the wrong
time and. It just yeah, and pretty much
good. Parallel and the Bulls X Snyder
Boom yeah meta metaism and the. Last thing I want to say is that

(27:41):
the reason Watchmen does not work for me is because it's very
clear that Zach gave the Watchmen superpowers.
Yeah, not strictly define superpowers, but they are very
clearly stronger than the average person.
They're faster, they have more endurance.
And that in itself, that single decision takes away from so much

(28:06):
of the intent of the graphic novel.
So. Because that graphic novel
everyone is just a normal human being with.
Masks. Yeah.
I didn't know that until you guys told me that.
That's crazy. And Doctor Manhattan is supposed
to be the only one with powers, which makes him all the more
frightening. Yeah.
Right. And more powerful within the
context of the story. I mean, he's he's still stupidly

(28:29):
powerful in the movie, but it's much more so in the graphic
novel. Right.
Because at least it even shows in the movie where they try to
fight back with the Doctor Manhattan and Adrian succeeds,
or at least he thinks he succeeds at defeating Dr.
Manhattan. And you think that's only
possible because Adrian has super strength, super reflexes,

(28:53):
super speed. He's able to think quickly and
is able to outmanoeuvre Dr. Manhattan who is looking down on
him. But when you compare that to the
the I, unfortunately I haven't seen I don't.
Is that seen in the graphic novel?
It is, yeah. OK.
So it's gonna be more interesting.

(29:15):
I'm interesting to see. Is it like 1 to 1?
More or less, yeah. Really.
OK, I'm gonna see how that. Save for a few movements here
and there. Right.
I'm gonna be interested because I'm gonna look into the graphic
novel and just see how much of adifference it is.
It's gonna be, I'm gonna, I'm mostly interested in like the

(29:35):
key moments of the movie, right?Just to see how, how the
difference is, for example, the black freighter, where it takes
place in the graphic novel as opposed to where it takes place
in the movie. Because it just feels like it's
randomly thrown, thrown in therein the ultimate cut, because the
Black Freighter is an ultimate cut cut exclusive.

(29:58):
And it just feels like it's so out of it feels so out of place
in the movie. So I'm interested to see how it
how it's placed inside the graphic novel.
I think it probably transitions better, yeah.
In the ground. I did like that transition where
it went from the black freighterto the interrogation scene of,
well, not to interrogation scene, Rorschach, but just

(30:19):
talking to the psychologist. Psych, you know?
Yeah, the psychology. Voice crack.
I was going to ignore it where they the curtain pulls, pulls
away and it just I'm. Getting ahead of.
It transitions into the psych evaluation and I thought that
was that was really me as as I was watching it.
Right. But in sense of story wise, I

(30:44):
don't think it makes sense whereit is.
Well, as someone that watched this film three times, I wanted
to, I wanted to like talk about the fight scenes because the
first time I watched this movie,I was not a fan of the fight
scenes. I thought they were kind of
corny, like the sound effects used like when you punch
someone. I thought they they just didn't
mesh well. Like the audio was not good, at

(31:06):
least right from when I was watching it on TV.
But then when I watched the director's cut, I don't know.
I don't know if they just fixed the audio or if I just, I was
already used to it so it didn't faze me.
But I felt that while it's true that this movie kind of it is
like the cornerstone of Zack Snyder's career moving forward
with the DCEUI, feel like his fight scenes were not as

(31:30):
coordinated and his Music Choicewas not all there.
I was not a fan of some of the songs he chose to use here, like
the beginning song with the Bob Dylan.
I like that one, the Hallelujah with the sex scene climax, I
didn't like that one. And I feel that later on Zack
Snyder gets better with incorporating music and his
fight scene coordination gets better.

(31:52):
Like I think Sucker Punch is a better example of really good
fight scenes and really good like Sonic Selection for those
fight scenes. His first, his first original
movie I actually saw, yeah, his first original movie caught you
with his action scenes. And honestly, that's the one
thing I always liked about Snyder and in all his movies,

(32:14):
his action scenes keep you like they keep you entertained.
Like like I said for the dialogue isn't as interesting.
Stories. But his fight scenes always
catch your attention, yeah, and keep you focused on you.
Don't enjoy vague lines about God and the devil and my dad.

(32:38):
You know. Like I was as you were doing
that, I was like, I wonder whichone he's referencing.
I was like going through all my head, through all the freaking
out Jesus allegories, and then you just went bad.
I'm like, oh, let. Me, put a Jolly Rancher in your
mouth. No, I did not enjoy his.
I don't think I've enjoyed one of his Jesus allegories he's

(33:01):
got. It's not just that he's got a
lot of sex allegories. There is a lot of birth imagery
in Man of Steel. And in Rebel Moon, there was one
too. And I was just like, come on,
dude, you're not even trying to be subtle.
It was like the most obvious thing I've ever seen and.
But the symbolism, you just don't get it.

(33:25):
No, no, actually, I'm, I'm goingto clown on you for a bit.
It's because you didn't watch the director's cut.
And if there's one thing I've learned from watching a lot of
Zack Snyder films in the last three weeks is you have to watch
the director's cut, extended cutor Ultimate.
Like whatever version of Zack Snyder, like he he puts out for
his movies, you have to watch that one.

(33:45):
I've seen Batman versus Superman, wasn't a fan of it but
I heard it's an Ultimate cut. I haven't seen that one.
It makes it worse. About fuck me it goes your
argument. Oh no, 'cause I was gonna say
it. Fixes the movie mechanically in
the sense that the plot becomes slightly more comprehensible,
but it makes the characterization, the themes,

(34:08):
and I would say the overall pretense of the movie 1000 times
worse. Fuck.
Our woman pretended to hear thatbecause my argument for Rebel
Moon forecast is you have to watch the director's cut.
You only watch 2 hours of Rebel Moon.
That's not enough to get the story.
You got to watch the three hour.Cuts.
You need Zach's full. Vision.

(34:30):
Yeah, you need the full vision. I was talking with Dylan about
this because I told because I asked them what the difference
between Rebel Moon and the Director's Cut, if it was even
worth it. 50 minutes of extra content?
Really. It's an extra hour, yes, that's
what I'm saying. Like you have to with the Zack
Snyder film. It was so.

(34:50):
Rough watching 2 hours and 10 minutes of.
It, I felt the same way about watching Watchmen.
And then I watched the director's cut and I was like,
you know what? This is better, a lot better.
I, I watched the theatrical version of Watchmen and I was
like, they should cut some of these scenes.
Like this movie does not have tobe this long.
And then I watched the director's cut and I was like,
OK, this makes sense. It it, I'm OK with it being

(35:12):
longer if it's gonna like flesh out the story better because
anyways, and I think Zach, Zach just has a hard on for making
these big epic stories. And like does like all these
movies like they're, they kind of have a lengthy runtime like
post Watchmen, like the extendedversion of his films or the
director's cut or wherever you want.

(35:32):
To see me in any movie under 2 hours.
No, yeah, no. Well suck a punch if you the non
extended version. Jesse hit the nail on the head.
The one thing that I have been able to glean about Zack Snyder
in my various attempts to understand this man is that he

(35:54):
wants to deliver these mythological epics.
Zack Snyder is someone who is sodriven by mythology and
spectacle. It's something that he's really
drawn to and something that he tries to incorporate into all of

(36:15):
his movies. And I think personally, it is
the thing that helped me finallyunderstand Zack Snyder as a
filmmaker. But I'll bring that up later in
the episode, right? So for the audience right now,
we have the Watchmen Ultimate Cup plan in the background and

(36:36):
Castor is busy distracting, but he's being distracted by the sex
right now. I'm waiting for it.
I'm waiting for it. Yeah.
I was noticing that the he was focusing on the moon shining in
the background. I was wondering what he was
going for with that. Or it was, it was, it was just
like you're. Definitely just yeah, you're
reading too much into it. It's just, you know, in the
background. You can be honest about what

(36:58):
you're focusing on. Yeah, there's you can't really
see anything. We're watching.
Two consent consenting adults make sex scene where they're not
really having sex but they're trying to sell us on the idea
that they're having sex because that's what a real actor does
guys yes and we are here just watching this three men just.
Amazing act of symbolism which which is about to hit all of us.

(37:21):
Yeah, like the most courageous. Here it comes and heavy.
Handed double entendre. Symbolism and rebirth, guys, if
you want to, if you want to see that in the Zack Snyder film,
watch Watchmen The Ultimate Cut 2 hours and 20 minutes in.
Then you'll understand what we're talking about right now.

(37:41):
Can you I want to say what is that showing?
Is it just showing the the? It's a metaphor.
You see, it's symbolic. Yes, but like, what were they
not the the two people looking up the sky, just looking at the
clouds? What was the image there?
It was just that the flame, the light from the thruster, was

(38:07):
casting a light through the clouds.
Because remember, before they start being intimate, he presses
a button to sort of blow smoke around Archie so he can kind of
obscure them. It's just the light of the fire
piercing through the smoke. But like, as we were watching

(38:27):
that scene, that is Zack Snyder,like his style, the way he
films. He's very heavy.
Handed he's very heavy-handed and even then like we everything
we're talking about like the desaturated colors it was there
his his he does a lot of these films like in these low light or
dark settings and we see that here.
He likes to really desaturate his films and then drive up the

(38:51):
contrast, Which gives it this very distinct look, you know, a
Zack Snyder movie just by looking at it.
Which? I, I, I, I, I like.
Maybe not necessarily as like for a viewing pleasure for me
per SE, but I do like that this is his.
It's a signature. It's a signature like everyone
while the Marvel when when Marvel does like they're weird

(39:13):
color great. They're weird color grades for
their most recent films, except for Thunderbolts because that
was an amazing film. But the way they do colors is
very monotonous. It doesn't feel as like alive
when Zack Snyder does it, it's very intentional as as like you
said, he desaturates some colorsand then contrast it with other

(39:34):
colors. I think 300 is a great example
because it's super light desaturated.
But it has. What, the Red Sea tones?
Yeah, Yes, exactly. Yeah, and that's very Zack
Snyder. That's his style.
And I like that he owns it and he just leans into it.
Very much so. So if that's something that you

(39:57):
can appreciate, what do you think about some of other Zack
Snyder's signatures, such as hisvery infamous use of slow
motion? I'm not a fan of the slow
motion. When I say that right now, I
think cast is going to say that he loves it.
I'm not a fan. I think he overuses it.
It works. When it works, it works.

(40:17):
The this is Sparta, kick a man in slow motion into the pit.
Oh, that goes hard. That scene is amazing.
But in other times, like when it's just regular fight scenes
and you have someone breaking someone's elbow, their bone
coming out and in slow MO, whichit's whatever, it doesn't do
anything for me, I hear. You.

(40:40):
For I acknowledge, yeah. For slow motion it, it honestly,
it depends on the movies becausein some movies I, I do enjoy it
because he doesn't go heavy-handed on it.
He just does it every a little bit when he does it a little bit
to emphasize a scene or I, I enjoy it, but when he uses it

(41:00):
heavy handedly, it's just there are so many moments and I keep
going back to Rebel Moon just because I've seen it.
There are there's so much slow motion in that movie.
It is the only movie where I feel it's like you should check
it out. It's like that.
The actual cut, I say theatrical, even though I went

(41:22):
straight to Steam streaming is what, 2 hours and 10 minutes?
And in the uncovered version, they get rid of the slow motion
in that movie. So it goes from a two hour 10
movie to a one hour 30 movie. Oh yeah.
I'm joking, but. I forgot you're going to be
troll this episode. But it there are just so many
scenes where you just see slow motion and you're just like,

(41:44):
why? There's just one scene, I don't
recall where exactly happened, but they're walking.
There's nothing significant of it.
They're just walking in the scene and for like 2 seconds it
just randomly shows them in slowmotion, right?
Like just walking in slow motion, then it cuts back and
then just continue walking. And I was watching that and I, I

(42:04):
just looked at the screen. I'm like, why?
Why did you feel that you didn'tfocus on anything?
You just slowed their walk for like 2 seconds to make the walk
seem longer. Yeah.
And I was just like, why? And he uses slow motion.
He abuses slow motion in that movie so much that I thought he
was, I, I thought he was messingaround.
I thought he was just just goingfor the lols, doing it on

(42:26):
purpose, like to make fun of himself just because everyone,
everyone always consults him forlike his slow motion or
everything, right. And I thought he was just like,
that's why he went heavy-handed.It's like, oh, you guys are
going to make fun of me for my slow motion.
Let me show you how how much I can abuse that Just really went
into it for Rebel Moon. I think where he does it well,

(42:47):
he's in the Justice League Snyder Cut with essentially a
2.0. Yeah, the the flash sequences, I
think the use of slow MO is really good there.
But as you said, like for a lot of his films, he kind of
overuses it. He relies on it too much.
To take a word from Dylan, It's it's very ham fisted slow MO.

(43:09):
But when he does it well, he does it well.
And I I feel like his movies would be better if he like he if
he just followed the golden ruleof like less is more slow MO.
Yeah, like they're great. They can look cool.
Just use less of them and your film.
One, they'll be they'll be a shorter runtime and two, they'll

(43:30):
look. Cool.
I think you both make good points.
I would say that I generally agree.
When Zach uses slow motion, well, it really works for me.
But when it becomes this self indulgent stylistic trait,

(43:52):
that's when it becomes overbearing for me.
You had mentioned that moment inRebel Moon.
There's another moment very early on in the movie when they
are just walking through the thefields and she drops some grain
and it just, it's in slow motionfor absolutely no reason at all.

(44:14):
It's just one of those situations where they try to
make this artsy agricultural shot because I'm sure we've all
seen a movie where a character is walking through a wheat field
and. They.
Let their they let their fingersgraze the wheat and the
director's like, Oh yes, look athow artsy I am.

(44:37):
Yep. That's the first movie that
comes to mind if you say that scene.
And yeah. What's going to try to do it
again? Glad here to it thing we know
what you're doing. Dude, there's.
So many scenes in that. There are a couple more Zach's
signatures that I'm curious to get your opinion on.

(44:57):
For which? For which movie?
All of the movies. All of them.
And one of them is the heavy, heavy use of biblical imagery
and just Jesus allegories. Those fly over my hood, Really.
I think no, they were the most obvious to me in Man of Steel,

(45:18):
because obviously still man. Jesus, America.
PBS Watchmen. Yeah, well, I don't know about
Watchmen. I don't want to think about it.
You were in the like the openingsequence, they showed a scene, a
scene which was kind of a parallel to The Last Supper.
That's one scene though, right? That's like 1 imagery.

(45:40):
And I think was that in the graphic novel or is that was
that or you know what I think that that nevermind, I think the
intro might have been the Zack Snyder choice, like the way that
they did with the Bob Dylan and all that.
Yeah, I think, I think that was that was straight up Zack
Snyder. OK, you know, Fairpoint.
But like I said, like they go over my head.
They were the most obvious to mein Man of Steel and I guess bad

(46:01):
versus Superman, specifically with the Superman character, but
in everything else it was. Also in Parents in Legends of
the Guardians. There was one called there
there. Was an owl called Jesus?
There is a scene in Batman V Superman that I think is the
most egregious Zack Snyder biblical imagery I've ever seen.

(46:25):
I think it's way worse than all of the ham fisted Jesus imagery
in Man of Steel. Even worse than when Clark is in
the church and they have the frame with the stained glass
window in the background. The worst example of this, the
one that really made me roll my eyes, is in BVS, when Superman

(46:49):
dies and Batman and Wonder Womanare standing on either side of
him, and there is a rebar cross in the left side of the frame.
Yeah, to recreate the final station of the cross.
Every time I see that, I just want to pull my hair out of my
head because, you know, he thinks, oh, this is so profound

(47:14):
and it's just not. Yeah.
And it's gonna be interesting towatch the upcoming Superman film
because they have to. I believe they have to just from
watching the trailer alone. They have two similar scenes.
And I feel like James Gunn will be able to do it better than
Zack Snyder did. We probably won't do it.

(47:35):
He probably will do it without the Jesus.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he will. Well, I was going to talk about
so I haven't seen all the like the Zack Snyder films, but I was
I was curious by about rebel Moon like the the Jesus imagery.
Is it there too? I'm trying to thank God.
I was so distracted looking at everything else that I don't

(47:56):
know if there was, you didn't. Notice the Jesus symbolism.
Was there a Jesus symbolism? I don't know, I'm asking you.
I'm asking Dylan. In Rebel Moon, there was a
little bit, yeah. Because if you think about it,
isn't Star Wars a little bit like Jesusy and isn't Rebel and
isn't Rebel Moon basically Star Wars but the Snyder Cut version?

(48:20):
This is how I described Rebel Moon.
I said. Rebel Moon is a heavy metal
remix of Star Wars. So can we really blame the jeez
isms on Zack Snyder for this one?
Or do we blame Star Wars? I'm joking.
Obviously we're going to blame Zack Snyder, but it's fun to
imagine. I'm going to come in with the
hot take here. Oh shit, OK.

(48:41):
Let's hear it, Rebel Moon. I was not a fan of it, but I
will say the locations, the production design, the
cinematography, all of that in Rebel Moon I think is honestly
great. What holds it back is the
characters. They are all sort of science

(49:02):
fiction stereotypes. They're the smuggler with the
golden heart, the disgraced war general looking for redemption,
the unexplained messianic hero. The characters are so thinly
written that it's what is familiar in Rebel Moon that

(49:23):
doesn't work. That's what holds it back.
All the stuff that Zach brought to Rebel Moon, that was his
idea. I'm going to be honest, I think
had potential. I would say there are genuinely
some shots in Rebel Moon that look way better than anything

(49:44):
I've seen in Star Wars apart from maybe Rogue One and The
Last Jedi. Which?
Which scenes are you talking? About those are high probable.
1. Well, there's a shot right at
the beginning where Sofia Botella's character is pushing
something through the fields, and she is set against this

(50:05):
planet that looks very much likeSaturn and has the rings, and it
just creates this really interesting shape for the frame.
I think Zach does a good job lighting the scene.
It casts a really interesting silhouette on Sophia, but it's
just a very striking image. Yeah, I, I, I, I do agree with

(50:26):
that. I was, I'm remembering that
scene. And also it's like very good for
the story. Just like even though she's
doing some agriculture and farming, you can clearly tell
that even though it looks like something that we're familiar
with, she's clearly on another planet to pull you into that
whole Star Wars I I did enjoy his ideas on like the aliens

(50:50):
justice creed. Some of them were really
creative. For one thing, if you're into
tentacles, you'll get. That in this movie, I don't want
that. It's like it's like, yeah, it's
it's strange that you there's not just one, but there's three
scenes of tentacles in that movie.

(51:12):
But one of them was that alien that in order to speak, he needs
a host. So he injects the 10, his
tentacles or whatever they are into the into the neck of the
whoever's going to relay his message in the way he's
speaking. And I thought that was
interesting, the design of the alien and you know, that

(51:32):
speaking method. I was like, OK, I I like that.
Just like looking at him and andthat whole thing about him that
was interesting. The other aliens, the extras in
the background were pretty great.
Wasn't really it wasn't really afan of the speaking one, the the
the one that wanted to buy the other person.

(51:53):
Like you could do it. He looked, I mean, like I got
yeah, I got the gist. Like he was an alien, but he
didn't look as impressive as like the other aliens in the
background. Right.
Then again, most of them were basically humans.
But you know, that's that's something with Star Wars too.
That does too. Despite being in outer space,
you more people are human looking than alien looking,

(52:15):
right. But still, the aliens that he
did a show were very interestingto look at.
You guys are kind of selling me on the movie.
I haven't seen Rebel Moon yet, but I've seen like the posters
of it. I've seen like the synopsis like
from reading it on Netflix. It.
Looks or in sounds like this grand space epic similar to Star

(52:38):
Wars, just like as you said, theheavy man level remix version,
which I don't know, I'm kind of sold on the idea of it and it
sounds like. A very a great idea, right?
Like just the just the idea of it.
Yeah, it sounds. Like a cool idea?
You're definitely going to watchto watch the director's cut just
because when I I watched the theatrical cut, you know,

(52:59):
theatrical with quotation Marks and as well.
They did. They did have a like a two week
trailer movie run I think beforeI went on Netflix, yeah.
Did it? Yeah, I think so, yeah.
But anyways, I was watching it and I remember when I was
watching it, I just, I could notshake the thought like
immediately in the barn scene, the that one fight scene.

(53:22):
I thought to myself, this is themost PG13 rated R movie I've
ever seen in my life. Just because they were using
like rated R kind of moves, likehaving an like an axe.
The the the protagonist use usesan axe as a weapon and to attack
and impale. And honestly, it looks like

(53:42):
she's using a rubber, a rubber axe with the way that the the
axe is hitting because it it it it looks like it's blunt.
It's not causing any wounds. There's no blood splatter at
all. It looks like she it's just a
she's like she's using a club inthe form of an axe.
And I'm just watching them like this.
This is yeah. Like they were really going for

(54:04):
APG 13 rating but they wanted the rated R action scenes.
These are the fight scenes you are so in love with.
I was not like Rebel Moon is themovie where I did not like any
of the fight scenes save for maybe the ending.
The ending I did like it like the the action sequence kind of

(54:26):
like maybe half and half. I think my favorite scene
Leonard tire thing is when the guy grabs A spear and just
rushes up to it was so impractical.
I did not understand like it it looked great but it did not make
sense where he goes up and and uses the spear to impale the
gutter and he misses and then the gunner shoots him in the

(54:50):
chest and then he lifts it up the spear and re impales him.
And I was like, OK, that, that was cool.
But like some of it looked like it looked, it looked great.
But he, he, he's done better. He like he could do better.
Like it felt like, like he was like, I don't know, he wasn't in

(55:12):
his element. Like, because with Snyder, I've
one thing I've always liked about Snyder is his action
sequence. And in this one it didn't feel
like he was like it was him. I feel like he was holding back.
I don't know, maybe. And then maybe that'll be fixed
when I watched the the Snyder Cut, right?

(55:32):
Because the action scenes and Rebel Moon were not for me.
Interesting. Well, the audience already knows
what I'm going to say right now.Audience, you ready for this?
So you're telling me that you like?
Cravings, but Rebel Moon is where you're like.
Yeah, I need to watch as. Interesting.

(55:55):
Interesting. It's going to be like, like I
said, because. Craving over craving.
You rebel. Moon when you watch.
Like. Wait, no, I want you to answer
that question. The question I'll have to watch
them again just because no. I.
Mean, like I'm saying, I need towatch, I need to watch the

(56:16):
director's cut of Rebel Moon just because the one thing that
really put me off of it is the fact that it was PG13 despite
with the rated R sequences. Kremen was rated.
R you know, fair fight. Like that.
I feel like that should have been an immediate answer in
favor of Rebel Moon. But the fact that.
Because at least Rebel Moon is areal movie.

(56:38):
Not like that. That really put me off the if
we'll see how what I what I think after I watch the
theatrical cut, because Jesse's whole thing about how you have
to watch a theatrical cut of Zack Snyder's films to
appreciate his movie, that that did not sell me on it at all.
But Dylan telling me that the reason why is the IT fails so

(57:02):
PG13 is because it is and the rated R scenes actually have
show blood show better. I don't know if you said you
didn't say better action, but it's like it.
Elaborates on the choreography. Yeah, so I feel like, just like,
like I said, like I, I love Snyder's action scenes.
I didn't like rainbow wounds. And you know, one, the one thing

(57:24):
that I like about a director is is bad that this is a huge take
away. I feel like that would be fixed
if I watch the director's cut. And maybe my opinion my opinion
will change, but for now I don'tlike that movie.
I can't believe you have to rewatch Rebel Moon just to like,
make sure that it's better than created.
I want to address something I want cast.

(57:45):
I want to formally apologize to you because last episode or
previous episode I had mentionedor said that you like bad movies
or whatever and that and you were like how we don't respect
your opinion and we said we do. It's just it's it's funny how
say that yeah, like you. No, no, you said that and I was
like, no, we do respect your. I do respect your opinion.

(58:07):
I just. Disagree with the opinion.
Yeah, I just but. What's there's nothing wrong
with like no? No, no, no, no, no.
Sure. But it's, it's, it's that you
try to sell that these bad movies are good when they're
not. That, that, that that's where I,
I want to add like that new one.I'm not saying that like you can
like 'cause your, your whole point was you can like bad
movies. Of course I agree with you.
Yeah, you can like bad movies. I like Watchmen.

(58:29):
I like it a lot. Like so there's like clearly you
can like a bad movie, but like Ithink you try to like sell them
as like these are great movies when they're not.
Not really, no. Like you were like yo, Craven's
good. No, I said I enjoyed it.
I gotta run, run the podcast back, run it back.
Yeah, I I'm pretty sure I said Ienjoyed it.

(58:50):
You said Falcon The Winter Soldier was good.
I may have said that. I may have said.
That but quick little like Falcon and The Winter Soldier
thing like I know this is a Snyder episode, but I've been
I've ever since we talked about thunderbolts.
I guess you know, a lot like YouTube recommend recommended me
Thunderbolts and like the one ofthe clips they recommended to me

(59:11):
was a John Walker clip from Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
And now that I'm recontextualizing like, you know
what, I want John Walker to be my Captain America.
I think a Falcon and The Winter Soldier I might be with with
cast on this one. I think it might be better,
better than what I initially thought if I recontextualize it

(59:31):
as yo hold on, there's more to this John Walker story.
Like the John Walker and Bucky are the and again are the best
parts. See this highlights the issue
with Sam Wilson if John Walker is the standout of Falcon and
The Winter Soldier. And Bucky.
And Zing. And then you add Thunderbolts.
That just lends more credence tothe fact that John Walker should

(59:53):
be Captain America. Which he shouldn't, and we've
explained why. The previous that is really.
Heartbreaking because Sam Wilsonwas a.
Side character in his own TV series and it never felt like he
was the main character. It felt like Bucky was the main
character. Well, he was Falcon and.
No. But like it feels like he was
the sole main character because you you got to see like his the

(01:00:16):
character development of Bucky, you got to see the character
development of Walker and. There was character development.
There was character development,but it kind of cut off.
And then that continued in Thunder bolts.
So you know, if you if you watchit like that, it's like you, you
just see his continued characterdevelopment.
And I hope they don't stop there.
I hope they keep going the next the next movie he's in and just

(01:00:38):
show his character. You don't win back his wife and
child more than anything on fingers crossed for that.
But with Sam Wilson, unfortunately, it's like you
don't see that like at all, honestly.
And I was, I don't think there was character development for
Zemo, but he was definitely moreinteresting.

(01:01:00):
Right. Just in the way that he was his
convictions, and he stuck to them from beginning to end.
You know who else got very little character development?
Henry Cavill. Superman.
Except for the first movie. That's.
An understatement. Because he in the first movie, I
think there was the character development in Man of Steel.

(01:01:22):
I think one of the yeah, one of the biggest controversial,
controversial scenes in that movie was Superman kills
someone. He kills Zod, Zed, Zod, Zod,
Zod. And when I remember when I
watched that movie for the firsttime, 2013 fourteen, around that
time, I was like, Superman doesn't kill.

(01:01:44):
What is this like you are ruining the character.
But I had a former friend of mine who made the argument that,
you know, this is like importantfor Superman's character because
after this moment, he never kills again.
And I think if, if we just look at it from that perspective,
Superman's character in Man of Steel, that's that's the only

(01:02:05):
time he gets development becauseafter that Batman VS Superman,
Justice League, no development, he's the same character.
And I think that's just a mishandling of Henry Cavill
because the dude is a good actorand they wasted his potential as
a suit. He could have been like the
Robert Downey Junior of the DCU,but they fucked it up.

(01:02:28):
There's a lot to unpack there. Super hot take.
Actually not a hot. Take.
I don't know if I agree with that because.
It's a super hot take. I personally was never too crazy
about Henry Cavill as Superman. I think the biggest issue, and
This is why I say Watchman is the most important movie in Zack

(01:02:48):
Snyder's career. It has informed so much of what
he did with the DC EU and the biggest issue with what you just
said about Superman killing Zod and it's somehow being this
crisis of consciousness that leads him to never kill again.
I don't think that works becausethe entire premise of the DC

(01:03:13):
Extended Universe is Zack Snyderattempting to deconstruct these
characters. But he wants to present them as
so far removed from their iconiccomic book iterations that any
knowledge you have of the characters, Superman, Batman,
Wonder Woman, actually works against your ability to follow

(01:03:37):
these movies. You cannot deconstruct something
that you never bothered to construct.
Yeah. It's a bar.
Basically, if injustice came, like I feel like he did get, he
saw injustice and he thought this is amazing.
I love this. I think he tried to incorporate.
That incorporate that. But I think what made Injustice

(01:03:58):
so great is the fact that we hadso many stories about Superman,
what a great person he was. And I am a huge DC fan.
But yeah, I could be wrong. I think this may have been one
of the first ones where they were like, what if Superman was
wasn't good and they tried to incorporate that into a long
story. And because it was a stand alone

(01:04:21):
one, it it just made it shine more like an else world story,
just being its own thing. Just a one off.
I think that was it was good. But he saw that and he's like,
you know what, let's do that. But what makes Superman so great
is, well, yeah, it's basically like you said with Watchmen,

(01:04:43):
where it would have been better for Watchmen to come out later.
I think if he his DC Universe would have been better if there
were some other DC Universe before that to show the goodness
of Superman and then show the deconstruction of Superman
instead. But he didn't.
He jumped straight to the gun because he thought it looked
cool. And I think that worked against

(01:05:04):
him. Right.
And ever since and after that, cause like Injustice really
heavily influenced comic books alot, whereas everyone started to
do, oh, let's do what they did to Injustice Superman to every
single superhero after that, that's where you got your famous

(01:05:25):
or controversial hail Hydra fromCaptain America.
Oh yeah. That comic book is a little bit
was not liked at all. Storyline is interesting just
because it feeds into the Civil war #2 but everyone tried it
with every single character after that just because you
know, Injustice was so popular. Like it was crazy popular. 5

(01:05:48):
volumes and counting and like I said, Snyder, definitely Mr.
Mark. I love how like you can nerd out
about like Injustice because I haven't.
Read anything about that? I think I played maybe like the
video game back when it was like, I mean, I think it's still
a mobile game, but I can't connect to that.
I'm sure it does. But it's just like I think your

(01:06:09):
knowledge of like the the injustice, like like the whole
storyline, like you know way more about that because I think
what was what was Zack Snyder trying to do with the Snyder Cut
of Justice League? Is he trying to hint at that?
But it was kind of like that movie just had a lot going on
and it was a four hour long movie and it's that was still
two more hours. The Snyder cut offs Justice

(01:06:29):
League it's 4. Hours.
Oh, I thought you were talking about Man of Steel.
Sorry, no. No, no, Justice League that
that's where introduces the likeat the very end telling of the
movie is when he starts introducing like the injustice
elements to it. You know, like the whole Batman
talking to Joker. And that was like the one time I
like Jared Leto as Joker like that for fun.
No, no, no, come on. Compared to the compared,

(01:06:52):
compared, compared Jared Leto toJared Leto from Jared Leto in
the Snyder Cut to the Jared Letoin the Suicide Squad.
Both cringe. If, gun to your head, you have
to choose which one is better. Well.
Gun to my head for the Snyder. Cut.
That's all I need to just ask. Because I don't want to die.

(01:07:13):
Thank you for answering the question anyway.
All right, audience, I I've removed the gun from his head.
That was a rather spirited question.
I'm curious. Yeah.
Are you in the mood for fighting?
I'm also in the I am in the moodfor fighting.
Because you also press casts about Craven and Rebel Moon.

(01:07:35):
Yeah, it seems like there's someheated energy in the room right
now. Yeah, I'm ready to blow it off
right now. Oh.
Yeah, definitely. Jesse's got a gun.
In my pants. Almost show up on his water.
And if you watch the Patreon, it's so you understand World
reference. All right, ladies and gentlemen,

(01:08:04):
since this is episode 10, we wanted to do something special,
so we are going to bring you thefirst ever Cinephytes.
Oh, tell me more. Let me explain the rules to you
briefly. I know, right?
Cinephile cinephytes. I'm such a genius, I know it's.

(01:08:26):
Like you thought about that by yourself.
I know, I'm really proud. So here are the rules.
Gentlemen, I am going to ask youa question.
You will each give me an answer.You will each get an opening
statement for 5 minutes. After that, there will be an

(01:08:47):
open discussion where you are not only trying to make the case
for your selection, but you are trying to discredit the other
person's choice. This is very much in the style
of a debate. There will be 3 main rounds.
If there is not a definitive winner, we will move on to the

(01:09:09):
speed round. Where the way the speed round
works is, I will ask you a question and you have to come up
with the answer on the spot. If you both say the same answer,
whoever said it first is the onewho gets that choice.
So OK, if there is no definitivewinner, we move to the speed

(01:09:32):
rounds. The speed rounds will decide the
winner, but this is very much a debate style game show.
All right, OK. I'm ready.
All right, so our first question, what is the best Zack
Snyder film? Army of the Dead 300.

(01:09:55):
OK, So you're going to go first.That's 5 minutes for your
opening statement. OK, give me a second.
OK, Just talk about Army of the Dead.
First I have to bring up anothermovie.
A foreign film. I don't know if you've heard of
it. Parasite.

(01:10:16):
Yes. Have you actually seen it?
The 2019 one? No.
The anime? No.
No, it's it's a must see for anyone who loves cinema.
A twisted ride that gets under your skin.
It just keeps when you watch it,you go into it not not expecting

(01:10:37):
what happens next. And it's a great thrill ride.
And don't worry, I haven't seen it either.
These are just these are just reviews that I'm reading from
the trailer. But all of those things that
make Parasite great, Army of Dead doesn't have what makes
Army of Dead. Oh great, this.

(01:10:57):
Is your body. Is that it is It is definitely
one of those movies where you can just watch and enjoy you.
You do not go to this movie for Oscar worthy performance is
amazingly beautiful scenes with an amazing backdrop.
It's like just perfectly still expression actors full of

(01:11:22):
expression and just the movie isnot a metaphor for anything.
It's just something you want to enjoy it.
It's just entertainment at its best.
And it even, it is by far in, inmy opinion, Zack Snyder's best
movie because for the first timein his life, he doesn't take

(01:11:43):
himself seriously. And you can tell that from the
constantly jokes that he all makes in, in, in the movie
himself. I mean they're, they're shooting
zombies and 1:00 and they just shoot one and one of those
zombies is randomly A Cyborg andit's never talking.
About ever again. The zombie just dies.

(01:12:06):
You just see his eye and it's like a Cyborg zombie, never
brought up again, never looked into.
It's like no one even stops. It's like what the heck is going
on? Why is that zombie?
But Nope, never brought up. They they open the when they're
first entering the casino, they talk about how there's all kinds
of zombies that on the floor andhow when it rains, they come

(01:12:28):
back to life for a couple hours and like, Oh my God, that's
that's, that's actually really interesting.
You never see it in the movie. It's just casually referenced.
It's like, so he is he he, it feels like he's throwing jokes
in it, like he, he's putting interesting things and then he's
never exploring him. And if you've seen any of Zack
Snyder's movies, he would love at the he would jump at the

(01:12:49):
chance to really go into it, tryto go deep, make them a
representation of Jesus. You know, the rain, it's like
the dragon is like every time it's rain, it's like Jesus
coming back to life after three days.
It's like after that third drop of water, they just come back to
life and it's like they, I thinkthey even make a joke.
It's like no one has a water bottle, right?

(01:13:11):
Just to test if the it's just water and not just rain itself.
There's another scene where theyjokingly say how they're in the
time loop and they're the peoplethat they're because it's a
heist movie set in a city full of zombies, which is pretty
interesting if I'm being honest.And he's talking about how what

(01:13:32):
if they're just stuck in a time loop and this it's heaven and
hell and this is their hell and they're just forced to redo the
heist until they're all killed, brought back to life, and they
have to redo everything all overagain.
And that's it as a joke to fuck with the guy that is opening the
safe. We're talking about Dawn of the
Dead or Army of the Dead. Army of the Dead, that's your

(01:13:53):
movie? Yeah, that's my movie.
OK. It's like this it it doesn't
take itself seriously. The scenes are great and
ultimately like you can just sitback, enjoy the ride, not being
too deeply into it. The characters do not feel like
they're so full of themselves. They just feel natural.
They're not, they're not. They're just people and the

(01:14:15):
actors do a very good job of bringing these characters to
life and just making it feel natural.
The discussion, the dialogue between them just feels normal.
It's just something that you canenjoy.
It's basically my take away fromthat movie and why I enjoyed it
so much because I'm when I watched it I just shut my brain

(01:14:36):
off, watched it and I enjoyed it.
You got about 2013 15 seconds ifyou want them.
It's OK. Well, it's, it's I'll concede
your time and I'll concede my time.
I mean, I was just going to hum,you know?
That was the strangest opening salvo I've ever heard.
I could have sworn you mentionedDonald the dead.

(01:14:57):
And then I was listening to like, wait, Heist, are we, are
we talking? About the same way, didn't I?
Say Army of the Dead. OK, I'm just making sure.
All right, my turn. Here we go, 300.
Your pick is 303 hundred still OK?
So I think 300 is Zack Snyder's best film.
And it's funny because it's his second film, but I think
everything that Zack Snyder is as a creator, as a director,

(01:15:22):
it's in that film. He's color desaturation with the
contrast that's there with slow MO fight scenes that's there.
Epic grandiose story that's there.
I think sure there's a lot of inaccuracies in the story I'm in
the story itself. I don't know if that's from the

(01:15:43):
graphic novel or just the director's choice, but I think
similar to what you were saying,I think it's a very entertaining
movie. I think it's more entertaining
than Army of the Dead for sure. Just because I'm, I'm a, I'm a
big fan of just like historical epics and this just it, it's,

(01:16:03):
it's too, it's just, it's too hard to fuck it up.
You have Spartans and you have abattle that that takes place and
all you got to do is just connect from A to B and just
tell that story. And in 300, Oh my, my boy Zack
Snyder, he fucking hits it out of the park.
It's entertaining. You as a man, you watch these

(01:16:25):
movies and oh, maybe, maybe you won't like fall into this idea,
but maybe you will. You'll watch these like a bunch
of like super macho man just doing Supermanly shit.
And you're like, you know what? I want to get that fit.
Like Gerald Butler in that film,he got, he got ripped.
And I think that is inspiration to me as a male and just just

(01:16:52):
like what that movie is. It's just like it's just super
machoism, just IA super like idealized version of hey,
there's I I stand by my principles.
I I will defend my country like to the death.
I will fight for my country. And I think there's just like a
lot of just like it speaks to like the male driven ego of like

(01:17:17):
war or just like defeating your enemies.
And I think that is that is donewell in 300 compared to his
other movies where he takes himself too serious.
I think in this 1300 he does take himself serious, but it's
done well. And I like the way that the like

(01:17:37):
the movie was made. It was filmed over 60 days of
production and it was mostly done with like a green screen,
blue screen. There's only like one or two
scenes that was actually done outside.
So like the how creative you have to be to do most of these
scenes with the backdrop and allthe actors how like they're,
they're not really outside. They, they have, they have to

(01:17:58):
basically act, you know, they actually have to do their
fucking job. And the only way like these
characters like Gerald Butler and everybody else, like they
have to communicate with each other of other people in order
to like build and like ground themselves in the, the epic
story that they're trying to tell.
And with other movies, sure, they take place outside and they

(01:18:20):
use green screens, but I think 300 was more limited.
And because of that, it brought it like if the actors brought
their A game and they really like acted their asses off and I
don't think I have to say anything more else, I would
concede another a whole minute and 30 seconds to you just
'cause I am that confident in mychoice.

(01:18:40):
OK so now it is open discussion and again remember you are not
trying to just make the case foryour film.
You need to discredit the other choice.
And then I will dock points for using things like fallacies.
Fuck debate. Rules do apply, so keep that in

(01:19:02):
mind. I'll let you go first this time.
All right, how long are we here for this one?
It's going to be 5 minutes as well.
All right, so Aubrey is dead. I don't.
I think you picked that movie specifically to troll me.
I'm not trying. This is not a fallacy.
This is just how you. Are not a fallacy.
Because because you have said again, Patreon exclusive episode

(01:19:23):
plug, you are a troll in this regular episode, but you were a
masterful expert in the Patreon episode.
So I know what you're bringing in right now.
You're bringing in your a your master troll a game.
Because I would have picked Dawnof the dead as a better movie
than Army of the dead. I do.
I do like how what appeals to you from Army of the Dead is

(01:19:46):
like the whole comedy and heist aspect instead of like the
horror and zombie aspect, which is what you typically like.
I think that the the highest of the film, you can barely even
call it a heist. I think like, yes, it's a
traditional heist in that, oh, there's there's a bank or

(01:20:07):
there's something that we need to go retrieve.
I I'm going to gather these, these these scrappy young people
that come with me on this mission and we're going to go
try to steal this one thing or whatever.
I think this movie is loosely a heist, but I don't think it
executes it that well. Sure, you mentioned that the the
characters are just people, but.I don't think so.

(01:20:28):
I think the more of a parody of people.
Like for example, I can't remember his name, but I know
his name starts with Theo. The the guy that like somewhere
in like in the beginning where they go to he's the one that
they sacrificed to the queen that the lady shoots him and
leaves him for dead to be taken over by the queen.
Like that guy. He did not feel like a real

(01:20:50):
character. He felt like a parody of the the
corrupt Guardsman who's like having his way with like the
females in the camp guard or whatever.
Like he didn't feel like a real character.
Sure real people exist like that, but he felt more like a
parody Dave Bautista's character.
Like I like Dave Bautista but I don't know if if if he if he

(01:21:14):
really brought it in this movie.I liked him better when he was
fucking the blue dude in fuckinggarden.
His name is escaping me. Drax, like when he plays those
characters, I think he in this movie, he tried to play too like
a too serious of a character. And I don't think that he just I
think he needs more experience acting before he tries to do

(01:21:34):
that again. Because like I at the the very
final scene where he he's givinglike a very emotional speech to
his daughter. I didn't feel it.
I was not there. It didn't take me there and, and
I and I'm I'm going to make you cringe because I'm going to say
that Red Guardians performance in Thunderbolts when he's
talking to Yelena, that heart toheart had way more impact and

(01:21:58):
was done way better than De Bautista's like heart to heart
with his own daughter. And in that movie, armour's
dead. He's fucking dying.
He's going to turn into the zombie.
His own daughter has to kill him.
There's a lot of emotional weight there.
It wasn't executed as well. And I think you can, I can say

(01:22:19):
that for like Army of the Dead looks good, it's fun, but is it
his best movie? Zack Snyder's best movie?
I, I wouldn't say that. What else did you bring up?
You brought up the comedy aspect.
I'm not going to disagree that the comedy aspect is funny, but
I don't think that this is. I think Zack Snyder has made

(01:22:41):
funnier movies than Army of the Dead.
Oh, you looked at me funny. Oh, I'll give you a funny I
think Watchman was funnier than Army of the Dead.
You want to hear a joke? Oh boy.
Paula, got you. I'm not sure if I'm even allowed
to comment. Depressed.
Man goes to a doctor, says he's.You are.

(01:23:02):
Oh, yeah. This is the open discussion.
Oh. It was an open discussion.
Oh my, you're supposed. To be, yeah.
I thought it was like he was 1st.
You know, I'll leave the last 15seconds to you.
Go ahead, rebuttal. Okay, first of all, it's like, I
don't think that's not just capable of parody.
So I don't know about that, but I think that was seriously his

(01:23:23):
take on the characters and whether they were parody or not,
that was unintentional. I was like sitting and like, I
need to stay quiet. Like I wanted to say so.
No, you don't. No, it's like.
What did you say? All you really said about the
movie was you liked it because it was funny and you liked the
characters because they felt real.
I said then I don't think they're real.

(01:23:44):
I feel like they're more like parodies of characters.
Yes, it is funny, but I don't think that's enough to make to
qualify as. It was it was very entertaining
and very captured you in the moment.
And not only that, but that the guy, the Guardsman that they
brought in, he was definitely a throwaway character, an extra
that post no real purpose to thestory rather than just be a

(01:24:04):
sacrifice. I mean, they do bring him back,
but even then they bring him back to be shot in the face,
right, which was just like one of those like he was like one of
those for people who have a fetish for like revenge.
It's like he got his just desserts, his karma, and that it
was a satisfying ending to his to his death.
His whole purpose was to give you that feeling.
Right. But being entertaining, I don't

(01:24:24):
think that's enough to make it like Zack Snyders best film.
And if you're gonna make the case that Army of the Dead is
the most entertaining Zack Snyder film, I'm gonna disagree.
I'm gonna say Sucker Punch is more retaining than that film,
and Sucker Punch is an incoherent mess, but it's a
beautiful incoherent mess. But you didn't pick that as your
choice. You picked 300.

(01:24:45):
That's your. Choice.
Well, no, because because I wantto bring another example.
If you're saying that the Army of the Dead is the most like
it's entertaining and that's whyit's the best Zack Snyder film,
I'm gonna disagree. I'm gonna name another movie
that's more entertaining becausemy merits for 300 being his best
film. It's not that it's entertaining.
It's like this, this style, the way it was shot, all the pre
production that went behind the film to make it as it is.

(01:25:08):
Those are my points for why it'sthe best Zack Snyder film.
And it's entertaining, sure. For 300, it's not really a
story, it's just one entire action scene for the entire
movie. And although I would say that I
do love Zack Snyder action scenes in the movies, I don't
think that qualifies an entire movie of just being an action
scene. I think you're dismissing 300

(01:25:30):
way too much because there is build up to like yes it is 1.
I actually know I disagree. It's not just one long action
sequence. There is build up to that like
there there is an act one, act two, Act 3 in 300 bitch.
Yeah, well. Obviously it did there.
Go on. Disarm me.
Disarm. Me.
I dare you. I'm.

(01:25:50):
Going to give you one last rebuttal because I decided to go
over time because you didn't know it was open.
I misunderstood that and it threw me off so freaking much
but. I'm taking it for the win.
Whatever. See, his heart's not in it.
Army of the Dead. It wasn't just the end.

(01:26:12):
Honestly, I can't remember what I was going to say, but I I
can't see 300 being a better movie than Army of the Dead.
Just because. Explain why, but just because
it's not I always as I was watching, I just felt like
Snyder wasn't taking himself as seriously when he was making the
movie. It it, it felt like for the

(01:26:33):
first time he pulled back, whichis something I wish he would do
a lot more, like not get in his own head.
There are some like symbolism inthat, but it's not that
heavy-handed. His action scenes are really
great. For example, the action scene
where they're crawling through the zombies and the girls left
by herself and she is slowly like she just a build up to it.
It adds so much tension as she'sknifing every zombie that's

(01:26:56):
slowly waking up little by little, and then they're all
waking up and you think, oh, she's dead, but she fights to
the bitter end. And it it makes for a great
action scene I like. And it wasn't that difficult to
follow, to be honest. But even though it was like in a
dark quarter and the lighting was not great at all, I could
still follow the movements, see what was happening, the shots

(01:27:16):
that were taken. And the ending for that scene
was pretty good. Them shooting the tank and her
back had to save her from being alive was a great scene.
It was so great that they and that he decided to do it again
in another scene. Interesting.
OK time. All right, so this these are my

(01:27:40):
takeaways here. Jesse's opening statement was
incredible. Thank you.
Where he really got me was when he said that 300 is a testament
to the male ego, to defend yourself, to really pursue this
idea of dominance. I thought that was an amazing

(01:28:04):
point, even though I don't particularly care for the movie.
I will say when you 2 finally got into the open discussion and
Jesse was explaining Army of theDead can't be Zack Snyders best
movie because it's not even his most entertaining movie.
He brought up Sucker Punch and you were actually hitting him

(01:28:25):
back. That's the energy that we're
aiming for here. Yeah, but I will say Jesse just
had you on the defensive way toomuch this round.
I do think you got an excellent shot in when you said that 300
is barely a story. It's one long action scene.
But you did not spend enough time explaining why 300 is not

(01:28:50):
Zach's best movie. You spent too much time letting
Jesse hammer away Army of the Dead.
So for that reason, Jesse wins the first round.
Let's. Go.
OK. But audience can't tell but I'm
posing for the camera. But yes, like when you guys were
actually trading the blows, that's what we're going for
here. OK, Round 2.

(01:29:12):
All right, you know what we're doing this time.
OK. I remember round two.
Everybody ready? OK, What is the best performance
in any Zack Snyder movie, obviously, that you've seen?
The blind girl from Sucker Punch.
That's a tough one. There have been.

(01:29:33):
He's done so many good movies. I'm gonna go with hold on one
SEC. Let's.
Be off the Dome, take away points like I don't know that's
just his name. I just said like who It was like
the blonde girl from. Emily Browning.
That girl, Ella Pernell from Army of the Dead.
Who's that? De Batista's daughter.
Got it. OK.
OK, hey feminism, let's go. All right, so Jess is going

(01:29:56):
first. Emily Browning is sucker punch.
Right. So I think that she it was a
theme, it was a a female led movie.
And I feel that she had like shereally carried like that movie
and for Zack Snyder to direct and for first of all, like

(01:30:17):
female LED movies aren't really like they're not as popular as
male led movies. So the fact that Zack Snyder
decided to do this movie with a female lead and then he cast her
and I just thought that like, her performance was really good
and capturing the essence of thebaby dog character.

(01:30:39):
She's supposed to kind of represent like an innocence.
And she like she does embody that, but she's also hot as
fuck. And that's depicted in like the
outfits that she has to wear. It's very, it's made for the
male gaze. And I think that's very like
Zack Snyder did that intentionally because we're the
ones viewing her through this lens.
So like we're the ones objectifying her.

(01:31:00):
And I think she carries herself very well in the movie.
She she she's really good at like selling the emotions that
like when the opening sequence, when it's playing like the back
story of how she got to the mental asylum, you see the range
of emotions that she's capable of showing.

(01:31:21):
And then went later on at the end of the film when she gets
lobotomized where she is more emotionless or expressionless,
there is still a hint of like she is still there.
She's not fully there. And I think the actress is
really good at capturing that and portraying that in what is
essentially a really silly movie.

(01:31:41):
I think Sucker Punch is a is a silly movie, but it's silly in a
good way. And I think her performance like
really, she really nailed it in that movie compared to other
movies by Zack Snyder where the actors will either take
themselves too serious like DaveBautista.
I felt that she did the best at maintaining her character

(01:32:06):
consistently throughout the entire movie.
And I have nothing else to say. So I can see in my 3 minutes to
you. OK, Ella Pernelle in the Army of
the Dead all. Right before I start on Ella
Pernelle, I'm just going to go into the attacks on Dave
Bautista because wow, that is just really messed up.
Like first of all, he is a stellar actor.

(01:32:27):
You just have not seen him in anything past Guardians the
Galaxy 3. I say just watching.
Knock on what was it? Knock at the cabin.
Knock at the Cabin. It's a great movie and he is a
very good actor when it comes toplaying serious roles.
You should. You just need to see the movies
where he does play with some more serious actor and I can
just tell you right now that hisperformance in the Army of the

(01:32:48):
Dead was very toned down. Like he that is not what he's
capable of. I think it was very purposeful
because he is aware of what kindof movie he is in.
And that being said, Ella Pernelle, so she is, I didn't
realize this at 1st until it waspointed out to me.
But you may recognize her if you've seen the Fallout series.
No, OK, that hurts. I was not expecting that blow.

(01:33:11):
That one hurt. But her story is basically it
starts with her mom was got turned into a zombie and she was
attacked by that same mother. And then mom was eventually put
down. And instead of her father being
there for her when she needed him because you know, she just

(01:33:34):
lost her mom, but her her dad lost her wife.
But even then, she she should have still been a father figure
so that they could have mourn together.
He stayed away because he thought he didn't like her.
I mean, she didn't like him because she killed his mom.
And you know, the way she just portrays that and the

(01:33:54):
discussions that they they have,it just feels very, she's very
good at displaying that. Not only that, but the way she
attaches herself to the her surrogate mother.
I'd say more like my friend, a very close friend and the way
she's looking out for her and the way she's willing to
sacrifice herself to save that very friend.
The way she's willing to go intozombie infested lands despite

(01:34:18):
having no training whatsoever, she's still putting herself at
risk. And you know what?
She's not bad. Despite having no training at
all. She was able to headshot 4
different zombies in the head. It's like you know, you know
what? And, and her magical ability to
turn that 12 round magazine intoa 60 round magazine.
But she is and her story is a very good story.

(01:34:40):
It is a revenge story if I've ever seen one, because at the
end of it, she ended up getting revenge on the son of a bitch
that killed her mother. And it was a very touching scene
too. It's like you don't see a lot of
revenge scene revenge scenes. And with a touching scene as
they're getting revenge, it's like, and you know what it's

(01:35:02):
like, her mother was killed witha knife.
She took the life of her mother's murderer with a gun.
So, you know, I feel like her story just is the best.
That's why she was my favorite character in that movie.
Honestly, I can see my time for that.
All right, so hopefully you bothknow how this works.
Now open. I feel like you spent the

(01:35:24):
majority or not the majority, but you spent a good portion of
speaking like praising this character because of Dave
Bautista, like you were. I was defending Dave Bautista
because you attacked. No, you.
Yeah, Yeah. But then later on when you were
talking about, like you said, like, oh, it's a revenge story
because she kills the one who killed the mother.
Oh, so Dave Bautista, like you're.
I think you were invoking Dave Bautista's name too much in

(01:35:46):
defense of your character. Yes, and they have a personal
relationship where there's no way to separate them because
they are connected in the entiremovie.
They are connected in the entireway, always together, looking at
well, father, looking after daughter throughout the movie,
trying to stay the side until they separate.
Yes. So the question was who was like

(01:36:07):
The Who was like the best performance, right.
That was the question. Yeah, the best performance.
So you have to just yes, she's with her data lab.
But in the spirit of the question, you have to just.
I disagree with that completely just because you can have an
amazing solo performance and that is definitely points for
you for solo performance, but italso takes into effect on your
performance when it shows your energy with other people because

(01:36:31):
they can compound it and make your performance even better.
It can heighten it so to excludeother people from us.
So actors performance I think isvery near narrow sided.
I'm going to say this I think because I think what you were
mentioning about like how she had like the magic ability, it's
to 16 round gun to a 60. Like magazine was an amazing

(01:36:51):
scene and honestly. How she kills 4 zombies.
Any other like? For zombies, headshot or
whatever, I feel like perfect headshot.
It's taking too much of like, mylove my my level of suspense of
disbelief because like you said,she has no training and yet
she's out here doing headshots and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Whereas in Sucker Punch, the whole action sequence is

(01:37:16):
everything that goes on in that movie, it takes place in her own
head. So I am willing to like give up
my suspension of disbelief for like the fact that she knows how
to use the sword or gun or all this because again, it's it's
happening in baby dolls head, but on your side.
It's like, yeah, she's just she's just got blessed by
Snyder. Jesus, And she could just do no

(01:37:36):
wrong. She's like 1.
Well, you have to take in mind, keep in mind the context of the
movie itself, because everythinginside it is ridiculous in
itself, I mean. The zombie Snyder films.
So they're both gonna be ridiculous, but.
Even then, like you think about it like a zombie that puts on a
helmet to block every headshot, a zombie tiger, a Cyborg zombie.
I thought that was smart. I thought.

(01:37:58):
That was smart too. But you know, it's like usually
you think about, I don't know, completely out of it.
Was that the same zombie that showed up in the in the
beginning of the movie? OK, cuz he looks so different.
I could never figure he. Cuz he.
Just he I thought it was a haircut but like his body looked
different too. Like he looked more in shape in

(01:38:18):
the beginning than he did in scene, but that always confused
me. Quick interjection.
I just want to remind you this is about the performance of the
actor. So far I feel like I don't have
to defend my actor because you haven't attacked mine.
I don't have anything. Attack yours just simply on
based on the fact that I cannot remember Sucker punch.
Oh, easy win man. Yeah, all right.

(01:38:38):
Numbers, several years. It's been so long since I've
seen it, like it more than a decade.
So I can't really talk about it.I'm just going to talk about.
I'm just going. To have you on the defensive.
Again, for now. Well, she had a great
performance and I don't feel like you've said anything
worthwhile. Well, you could I, I well,
because I I attacked the fact that you were invoking her
father too much. Or Dave Artista character too

(01:38:59):
much when the question was like about the performance of her.
I'm saying that the performance of an actor.
Is and if you're gonna base all her scenes are just like these
are good scenes because she's with Dave Bautista, then I can
and then I think my argument is stronger than that baby doll was
her performance was stronger because she basically carried
like the movie focused on her soshe.

(01:39:19):
She was the main character, yes,whereas Alper now was not the
main character, Yeah, but you have to understand that stand
out the performance inside her own movie.
But if your performance is contingent, is contingent on
like other people being around you, can you really say like
it's a good performance if it relies, if it relies on like
other people to like boost you up or whatever?

(01:39:40):
I mean, not a solo action. It's all the pieces coming
together to complement each other.
That's why I'm saying that her performance cannot just be
looked at and said, oh, if you're just talking about how
she interacts with others, like I said, that's very narrow
sided. You have to consider all the
different aspects like she has afather, a daughter, relationship

(01:40:02):
with her and to not bring that into account when speaking about
them. It's impossible.
OK baby doll has a father a daughter relationship with her
stepdad. Her stepdad is super upset that
the mom it basically gave her gave her daughters everything in
her will. So the stepdad sends her away to
the the mental solution to be so.

(01:40:22):
He has a lot of screen time in this movie.
No, he doesn't, but the relationship is there because he
is the reason why she's there. He is he's the reason why she
she has to get lobotomized because he doesn't want her to
spill her seat like the the secret that he he like that he's
trying to get rid of her and allthat.
So if we're going to talk about like the fathers and like the

(01:40:44):
relationship between, like the other, like how the relationship
of the main character or the character you're defending with
everybody around them, then I I can make that case, yeah.
Why don't you? Because I don't need to I, I
think I can just focus solely onjust like her performance alone
and like how she was, yes, my example, she is the main
character. So I do have like that leeway.

(01:41:04):
But that's kind of on you for choosing a side character to be
like who you're going to defend because my character has more
agency, you know, which is ironic because she's in the
mental institution where there is little to no agency.
So she has to escape in her headand concoct these plans that
ultimately like lead to the the the escape of someone else,

(01:41:25):
which it was mentioned in the beginning of the film, how she
needs like these four things to escape.
And like the fifth thing was sacrifice.
And it was very like vague. What does sacrifice mean?
Because the other items were like a map, a knife and like
other shit like that. But the last thing sacrifice and
what was the sacrifice and endedup being her.

(01:41:45):
She had to sacrifice herself to let someone else escape.
That is a heroic. That is.
I think that's a more that's a bigger character trait that I
can prop up. Then hey, someone's daughter
just shot her murder, which is her father, which is yes, it was
an emotional scene, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But like how I said in the in myin my opening statement, I don't

(01:42:06):
think that they but like that scene was as emotional as it
could have been. So it doesn't really like do
anything for me. Well, OK, First off, that was a
very emotional scene. I don't know, it might not have
resonated with you, but it definitely resonated with me.
Not only that, but it's talking about heroics.
The fact that she, I know training went to go save someone

(01:42:28):
because once she was a mother, she had two children.
And that's why she went into what she thought what what at
the time she knew was zombie infested.
And as she's approaching, she got lucky and the zombies
escape, all left to go hunt downthe people that were that killed
the queen. And that's when she managed to
go in. And despite only having a pistol

(01:42:49):
of 60 rounds, she went in and there were more than one zombie
in there. And yeah, she missed that first
with that one zombie, that one throwaway zombie, that karma
revenge zombie, But she managed to save one of the three people,
which was pretty impressive for someone with no training.
And then then it was she was doing well for herself up to the

(01:43:10):
point she got to that zombie that that super intelligent
zombie with the armored head that basically killed everyone
in that movie. Yep.
So so you know what? That that that was a selfless
action for her. And that and then when they go
into the we're. Closing statements here.
OK. I still think mine's better.

(01:43:31):
I think mine shows more agency and mine shows more heroics.
And I think in terms of performance, like, yeah, I think
she, sorry, didn't. Can you give me her actress name
again? Evelyn Browning, I think Emily.
Browning like really stole the show in that movie, and I don't
think you can say the same thingabout your character in that
movie. If anything, I think the
character that stole the show inArmy of the Dead would probably

(01:43:55):
have to be Dave Bautista's character, and I'm not even a
fan of his character. The main character.
Yeah. Well, closing thoughts.
Hello Perna. Despite not being a side
character, despite being the daughter of the main character,
I felt like she shined in her own regard.

(01:44:15):
And you know what? Despite having that stereotype
of being the annoying teenager, not the one that makes the bad
decisions, that huge stereotype of bad decisions, of getting
yourself killed, I still found her story to be compelling and
entertaining. And I honestly my biggest take
away from that, despite being the stereotype of the annoying

(01:44:35):
teenager, she didn't annoy me asmuch.
Well, she didn't annoy me and I very much like that, and I think
that was more so in part due to the actors performance rather
than the storytelling aspect of the story.
Man. We went over that one, no.
It's not the time I was worried about.
I just, I feel like such a bad guy here.

(01:44:59):
The question was who delivered the best performance in a Zack
Snyder movie? And I feel like the only person
that made a case for the performance of their choice was
Jesse. I feel like you were trying to
tell me more about Ella Pernell's character rather than
what she did as an actress. And you didn't hit back at Emily

(01:45:22):
Browning, but it was really the fact that you barely talked
about her performance. Like, what did she do as an
actress to be a stand out? So for that reason alone, I, I,
I mean, I feel like Jesse's inevitable here, OK.
You know what for the next question, I will give you any

(01:45:42):
like I will let you lead I. Like that, that this is that.
That's two out of. Three.
Oh shit, you're right. Damn.
We're gonna, we're gonna, but we're gonna play out the whole
thing. All right, so last question
here. If you could have Zack Snyder
take over any film franchise, what would it be?
Oh shit, that's. Good, that's a.
Hard. One, that's a good question.

(01:46:04):
Any film franchise or. Any film.
Established already or has yet to be established, so it has to
be established already, right? Established and it does not have
to be regulated to comic books. That's what he does best.
That's that's the thing. Oh man, that's that's a great
question. That's a really hard question.
More like I can't. I think of it.

(01:46:26):
Hold on. I have one in mind, but I'm not
very good. I, it's not, I don't like it,
but you know, I have it in the back of the mind if I, if it
comes down to it, but I'm thinking like, because you know
what I'm trying to see. You know I'm ready.
I know. I agree.
To talk about that is a hard question.

(01:46:46):
A universe. OK, I think, OK, no way.
Let's go. Yes.
OK, you got it. Yeah.
All right. Ready.
Mine is fast and furious. I thought the same thing 1st
that's. Good, that was my first.

(01:47:08):
Like I'm like OK, the like. I want to get there.
Yeah, like Fast and Furious because my my first thought was
the. Transpo.
The Transporter series the. Transformers.
That would be a good one too. Not good enough.
No. Like, no, I don't think he, I
don't think he'd be able to makea good Transformers movie.
But I I was thinking it's like Beam movies that are just like

(01:47:36):
don't have stories. It's like it's all action.
It had to be transporters. That's the only one that I could
think of. OK.
Transporters versus Fast and Furious?
God damn. All right.
Basically. OK, hold on.
Oh dude, this is such a tough question.
Are you still? Thinking, OK, hold on.
I'm yeah, no, I'm not. I'm not thinking.
I'm trying to think about defense because I was like,
Transporter was my backup and I'm like, OK, Fast and Furious.

(01:47:59):
Even then, on Fast and Furious Idid not have a good, good idea.
This is a really difficult question.
Do you? Want me to go with my opening
ways to think of your quick answer?
No, no transporter. OK, OK, OK.
Are you ready? Yeah.
All right. So my my case for the Fast and
Furious franchise would be Zack Snyder.
Just, I think it'd be really interesting to see how he does

(01:48:22):
the slow MO. And I think it'd be interesting
because it's about fast cars. So I think he would utilize a
lot of slow MO and then like a lot of like fast movements.
I think that those would translate really well in like
car scenes or just racings in general.
His color desaturation, well, that's kind of his signature.

(01:48:42):
So I think it would just be interesting to view like these
like very colorful cars in like a more desaturated universe
where I think the cars themselves will probably be
saturated up, but the people like they'll be desaturated
down. So it would really highlight the
cars. And I think in the Fast and
Furious, it kind of lost, it kind of lost sight of that like

(01:49:05):
after 77891011 or whatever. But the first like 5, like it
really focused on the cars. I think it was actually night
behind it and you focus more on the cars.
With his colors, I think he would make the cars really stand
out. I think because the Fast and
Furious franchise is kind of like turn your brain off type of

(01:49:26):
like franchise and movies. Then hopefully there will be
like less Jesus and religious symbolism in these movies since
it's kind of hard. It's kind of hard to put Jesus
on wheels. But I suppose if anyone's going
to do it, it would be Zack Snyder.
It would this would be an original.

(01:49:47):
This would also be assuming thatthe the fast and furious never
created or whatever or or no, no, no, I'm sorry, no, the the
the the apprentices already exist, but he would just take it
over. I think that he would add a good
flair and style to it that we Jack Snyder is a very distinct

(01:50:09):
has a very distinct style as a as a as a director.
And I think we would see that like we will see like the best
version of that in something like a fast and furious
franchise just because they're really dumb movies.
But that's where like Zack Snyder, like that's that.
That's his element, because you can't really make a franchise or
a movie about racing cars any more deep than it already is.

(01:50:33):
So like, I don't think Zack Snyder would not be able to fuck
this up because it's already like a dumb movie.
All you got to do is just have fun Zack.
I can see my 2 1/2 minutes left to cast.
So the Transporter series, him taking it over, I don't know if
you've ever seen on the Transporter movies, but there's
a I believe it's a trilogy. Yeah.
So for one thing, if you've everseen the movie, you'd know that

(01:50:57):
it does have a story, but it's very loose.
And honestly, the first one has a story kind of second and
third, not so much. So him coming in and taking it
over, he could just take it inspiration from that.
And even then, he doesn't have to.
Even if he adapts it, there's not much he can.
He can add his own flair. He's not what he's known for his
Jesus allegories, but what is healso known for?

(01:51:18):
His sex allegories and there's nothing like the Transporter
series. If there's if there's one thing
Transporter series, it has it's sex scenes and I know that he
will have fun with that and desaturation.
You don't have to worry about that in this movie because the
cars are black. So color does not play a huge

(01:51:39):
role in the transporter series. So it will give him an
opportunity to expand on it, do his own take on it.
And you know what? Since the movie, the originals
don't really have color, doesn'treally have play a huge part in
it, He can do his own take on itand do something different.
And because you know, the originals don't, his take will
be different and it'll be accepted more easily.

(01:52:01):
They are mostly well known for his action scenes in the
Transporter series, the fight scenes and everything.
And what is Zack Snyder known for if not action scenes?
And the way he the the the greatthing about the Transporter
series is that it combines the car and the car and the driver
fighting. Like you can have fight scenes
in the car. And I think if anyone can pull

(01:52:21):
that off, it'll be Zack Snyder in the way that he'll be
creative and just the way he'll approach the scenes.
And because like I said, there'snot much, there's not much to
work with in the Transporter series.
But I think that will only help Snyder because he gets in his

(01:52:42):
own head too much. It'll give him more freedom to
do what he wants with the seriesand make it his own, his own
telling on it, his own storytelling.
And since like I said, there's nothing much to from the
Transporter series that sets them apart.
Honestly, the second movie and the third movie are forgettable.
It really gives Snyder more freedom to to work with rather

(01:53:08):
as opposed to any other franchise.
And obviously by 2 1/2 minutes. OK.
And just for clarification, we are talking about the
Transporter series with Jason Statham, yes?
OK, I will keep Jason Statham asthe main character.
OK. That's good to know.
Open. OK, so I think, I mean, I'm
going to give you your props. I think that's the next.

(01:53:29):
The Transporter series is an excellent choice what I'm going
to say. Basically the same choice.
But no, my, my rebuttal is like,no, the Fast and Furious, like
there's like 12 movies. The franchise is bigger.
There's a lot more you can do with that.
And whereas you said Transporters 2 and three were
like kind of similar, like you can forget about them or
whatever. Yeah, Fast and Furious, like
they're yes, there's a lot of movies where like they're either

(01:53:51):
like, no, I'm not I'm not going to say that.
I'm going to say like they're they're all like different in
their own way from like the first one, which is kind of like
corny and cheesy and like back when they didn't know that this
was going to be a franchise to the second one, Tokyo, like, you
know, that's we got the iconic Tokyo song, drift song.
And like from the 3rd 4th, like how they're related to like the

(01:54:11):
second, like the second movie orwhatever.
Point being, like every movie they built it built on top of
like the universe that's establishing, and they get more
and more sillier. I'd argue that that would work
against Saxon Aggregator taking it over because he would do his
own take on it and because it already has its established
fandom and everything. They won't hate him for it and

(01:54:32):
won't accept his movies. Whereas the Transporter series
that doesn't really have its ownfan base he if he takes it over
there's not much that he could change that would make series
bad. There's so much more to work
with. It's like putty.
He can mold it however he wants and no one will say anything
about it. I think like there's enough.
There's even more putty with theFast and Furious like series.

(01:54:53):
Like it's a bigger universe. There's already more established
things in. Like it's already an established
universe. With the Fast and Furious
movies, it's just let's make another movie and think about
the plot later. So they'll just loosely.
Using transporters 2 and three had like the plot was
unforgettable. So in my case in my argument is
that at least like the? Argument for Fast and Furious 3

(01:55:15):
could be copy and paste it for transported.
What do you mean? Well, like you just said, it's
like just because they've made more movies, that doesn't mean
that the that the the the story gets better.
With you, I didn't say it got itgot better.
I know, but you, You I. Said it builds you.
Just it builds along and you canmake more movies.
Well with Transporter you can dothe same thing simply because
there's nothing to work with andhe can just keep adding on if he

(01:55:37):
wants to and put on the same module that he did that they do
for Fast and Furious, which is let's make some more money.
Let's just make another movie. We'll worry about the plot later
and see how it connects. Let's just get a star actor to
play and let let their story just carry the story.
We'll retell the same story 14 times and people will buy it
because that's what they come. That sounds like Transporter and

(01:55:57):
Jason Statham and every movie that Jason Statham is in,
actually. Exactly.
So your argument for Fast and Furious is copy and pasteable to
Transporter 3 and that's what I'm.
Saying if you ever bought this you're just going to copy and
paste my answer, OK? Exactly.
OK, that'll answer to your. Uh huh.
OK, Well, if you're going to keep Jason Statham, I think like

(01:56:18):
how you said that sort of like adark movie, so like Zack Snyder
would be able to just do his ownthing in that.
I think that harms the movie more just from a color graded
color grading style. Because I think Zack Snyder,
yes, while he does desaturate his movies a lot, he does like
highlight the colors. Like he'll desaturate like the

(01:56:40):
human skin and like everything else.
But then he'll like saturate up like something like the for
example, in a watchman, he saturates up like the yellows,
like the yellow comedian button in 300.
It's like the Reds, like they're, they're more like.
They're brighter. Yeah, they're brighter and with
since you're staying in Transporter, it's already a
black, like a black film. It's always the same, It's

(01:57:01):
always the same car. It's a limousine and it's black.
So I I think like that leaves very little room for him to do
with what he does best, which iswhat like, yes, he desaturates
his movies, but he also contrasts that with like heavy
saturation for like the colors that matter.
And that's like a very distinct Snyder film style that I don't
think you'd be able to do in transporters if you're still

(01:57:21):
using like the same like, you know, monotone colors like it
came with already. Whereas Fast and Furious, it's
got a bunch of cars. So you're going to be able to
easily just or he'll be able to easily just have bring out those
those the colors of those cars make them really pop out.
And I feel like he would make the cars look better in a car

(01:57:42):
universe. What?
Can you make look better in yourtransporter universe?
Sorry. Well.
For in the Fast and Furious universe, I do understand what
you're trying to say. Whereas, you know, the
desaturating the background, saturating the cars and that
will make it look better. I don't think Zack Snyder's
capable of that. Just the idea like it'll be too
saturated. The cars will look ugly.

(01:58:03):
It it'll just look bad in the shots and everything.
And in the Fast and Furious movies, the shots of the car,
the color schemes of the car, the angles of the car play a
pivot a little role in that series.
And I don't think Zack Snyder isable to recreate.
I think he'd do it better. No, he wouldn't.
Recreate it. I don't think he'd.
Do it better. I believe so and that's why I
just picked the Transporter series, because his desaturation

(01:58:25):
and saturation where he does it to an excessive level will play
no part in the movie. It's like it will only add on to
it because there's no way he canmake it worse.
You make it sound that like the Fast and Furious franchise is
like too hard. It's unadaptable when I feel
like it's one of the easiest franchises.
I think he would be very easy for him to do the action scenes.

(01:58:46):
I think he would do it, which iswhy I chose Transporter, because
with the car scenes he'd be ableto adapt the driving scenes.
I think he'd be very creative with the action scenes and the
car involved. I just don't think that.
I think for the Fast and Furiousmovies, same like with the
Transformers movies, the cars themselves play a pivotal role.
The way they look, their design and everything.

(01:59:06):
They're the selling point. And I don't think Snyder would
make the car pop. In fact, I think he would with
the way he changed works with the color screen.
It would be look better as someone else taking a picture of
the car rather than the car in his movie.
I disagree and like the reason why I disagree is because I
think we've seen like we just spent like a whole episode on

(01:59:28):
Snyder. And I think we've there are
examples in other movies where he he does do that with the
colors and the fast and Furious is basically just cars and and
fight scenes. And we both know that Zack
Snyder can do fight scenes. The plot isn't really there in
the Fast and Furious movies as they go on, which means it's not
going to be too deep or it's notgoing to go over Zack's heads of

(01:59:50):
what he needs to do in order to make these movies successful.
Closing statements. That was my closing statement.
My closing statement, it's like,like is the same as my opening
statement, just basically Transporter series.
I, I, I feel like it is a betterchoice simply because if he's
taking it over, he has a lot more to work with, a lot more, a

(02:00:16):
lot more. More room to grow, more ability
to change things, mold it in hisfashion.
And I don't think he'll get as much pushback as you would with
any other series just simply because the Transporter series,
there's not, it doesn't have thecall following that others
universes have. And I think because he'll have

(02:00:36):
the mold, he'll have the structure to work with, which
will help Zack Snyder just like which will help him write the
story, because I feel like he just needs like a helping hand
most times when he's writing a story.
And I think he the fact that there is structure, but not that
much to work, not that much to change, not that much diversity,
not much. It's just it's just the same

(02:00:57):
story every single movie. I think he'll be able to go in
and I think he'll be able to have more fun, be more
comfortable and just try to be himself.
And honestly, when it comes to for a director, that's like the
best thing to do because that's what every director wants to do.
They want to tell their old story.
And he'll be able to do that more and put his own print on

(02:01:19):
the Transporter series than he would in the Fast and Furious
series. Damn that one that we hit our
stride in that one. You definitely did, and I think
both of you made some excellent points.
I think Hard dude Jesse really did a good job explaining how
Fast and Furious really does nothave any sort of overarching

(02:01:40):
story or identity would give Zach the freedom to come in and
apply all of his technical signatures.
But I gotta be honest, I think we have a little comeback cast
over here because he delivered what I thought was the knockout

(02:02:00):
punch by saying Transporter has no fan base.
And there's nothing that fan bases hate more than a filmmaker
coming in and them feeling like they ruined something they love.
And Transporter being such a nothing franchise it actually
would give Zach I think more creative freedom.

(02:02:23):
Not just on the technical aspectwith the slow motion, the
desaturation, the action scenes.But as a storyteller Zach could
make it pompous with the pseudo intellectual philosophy.
He could throw in the Jesus allegories.
And also. Sex allegories.
And the sex allegories. I also think Jason Statham is a

(02:02:45):
really good compliment to someone like Zach's style, so
I'm going to give it to Cass. For me, that you're picking the
list is what lost you. Because I was.
I wanted to pick Fast and Furious too.
Yeah, ironic irony. I mean, I still think I'm right,
but. I don't know.

(02:03:06):
That one's a hard question. Like no one caught me so off
guard. But like, I I was thinking of it
like my first thought was like Iwas going through all the
franchises. I was thinking Percy Jackson.
Nope, I don't want him to do that.
And then like, no, let's not do superhero movies, but even the
last movie shines in the most atthe same time, no.
I should have gone with Mad Max.I should have gone.

(02:03:27):
Yeah, I thought about that afterI said I'm like, fuck, when I
already said it and you said transport.
I'm like, well I'm already locked in but.
I would have conceded it right I.
Should have said Mad Max. Dude, I would have lost.
Because that's cars. Yeah, Damn.
Like I, I don't think I would have been like if you would have
picked Mad Max, I would have been like, you know what, you,

(02:03:47):
you win. It's like I I didn't even think
of that one. That's a great fucking answer.
Yeah, I was damned. Yeah, I know.
I can't even say like I'll have it ready for next time because I
think like the whole point of cinephites is we just.
Come up here different topics. Different topics and we're not
supposed to know what the question is going to be.

(02:04:08):
You just ask it and we just off the Dome have to come up with
our case. I was going to try and jump in
the ring here but I know he's trying to FO so.
No, I'm still stuck on mathematics.
I'm like, damn it, that would have been a good one.
I'm just thinking I'm just picturing this like a Zack
Snyder Mad Max film how it wouldbe.

(02:04:29):
I'm just trying to like give an example, even though I do think
there was a very clear stride there in the third round, Like
someone go against me real quick.
What's the question? We'll make it quick.
Someone come up with a question?Relate to Zack Snyder.
Yeah, it has to be Zack Zachary related.
All right, OK. What do you think is the film

(02:04:53):
that is has been the most detrimental to Zack Snyders
career? Superman.
Okay, why so? Batman versus Superman is
everything wrong with Zack Snyder in the in the sense that
it is not only the overindulgence of all of his
worst tendencies, but it is a movie that is absolutely crushed
by pretense in a way that only an auteur project can be.

(02:05:16):
Everything wrong with Batman versus Superman is directly
related to Zack's inclinations as a filmmaker.
Portraying Batman as an absolutemass murderer, portraying
Superman as a mopey loser, and interjecting it with all of
these pseudo intellectual philosophical themes that he has
no idea what to say. And again, it is the most

(02:05:40):
detrimental because it has done the most irreparable harm to
Zack Snyder's career. Even though he got to make the
Snyder Cut, Zack Snyder's reputation took a permanent hit
from that movie because from that point on, the majority of
DC fans have never trusted him to touch the series again.
You came ready with that one, OK.

(02:06:02):
Like no, they might think. Top top 10 questions to ask
Dylan and you picked that because other than going for a
curveball, you go again, went for one of that you were able.
To. I thought like, you know what,
I'm gonna inverse because he originally asked like, oh,
what's like the the exact like what's best films like, oh, I
mean inverse that like what was like the one that like was

(02:06:23):
detrimental to his career and hewas so fast with that because.
It's like, honestly it would have been a harder question to
ask if I were. To do this debate, my answer
would have been Man of Steel just because of give.
Me one compliment of Zack Snyder.
That would have been a much harder question.
No, no. I think he, Dylan, would have
been able to compliment Zack Snyder.
I think he appreciates Zack Snyder more now.
And internally, as he said it, I, I, I.

(02:06:44):
Think you think Dylan hates ZackSnyder more than he really does?
I think Jess is right. But mine would have been Man of
Steel just because I think afterthat he kind of locked himself
in that like making superhero movies because like, yeah,
before that it's like Donald a 300 Watchmen Sucker Punch.
So like they're they're kind of like diverse movies.
But after Man of Steel, it's alllike BVS, Justice League,

(02:07:05):
Justice League 2 point O, and it's not until like the DCU like
fails that he he does other shit.
Arm of the dead and rebel moon. But fuck, I have no if we're
gonna do rebuttals, I have no rebuttals for your BBS.
My is fucking brilliant. My rebuttal to Man of Steel
would be that even though I don't like Man of Steel as a
movie, I still think there are good enough ideas in Man of

(02:07:28):
Steel such as trying to ground Superman in the modern world.
And I think the general conceit of if Superman were real, if
someone like that existed, this world would not trust him.
I think that in itself is a goodgeneral conceit to work with.
It is the execution of Man of Steel that fails.

(02:07:49):
Even the flashbacks I think theycould have worked if they were
actually structured properly. Obviously the movie is presented
in non chronological order, but the issue with Man of Steel is
that the flashbacks are not formally in order, meaning that
thematically I don't think they work.
For example, take the scene withClark being bullied by Pete.

(02:08:11):
You need to put that flashback either before or after Clark
decides not to hit the guy at the restaurant when he was
sexually harassing the waitress.Instead, Clark just puts his
truck through the thing. If Man of Steel is reworked, I
think there are good enough ideas in there.
And also, I would say just the best thing about Man of Steel.

(02:08:34):
Zack Snyder is perhaps the most brilliant director to ever
visualize the power of super strength.
There has never been a superheroon screen that has demonstrated
the power of what it's like to be physically stronger than any
other person in existence. Than the Smallville fight in Man
of Steel. You know what the next in.
The fight you're doing the next in.

(02:08:55):
The fight in Thunderbolt. I would say Zack Snyder did a
much better job visualizing super strength.
I thought the scene was good, don't get me wrong, but I think
Man of Steel is better. I did like the Smallville.
Honestly, I like, honestly I think I like, I have to rewatch
it, but I think I like the Smallville fight scene more than
I did at the fight against Sod. Yes, every day.

(02:09:17):
It was just like, I don't, I don't remember what it was, but
just like just the blows and thesounds that they made, even how
the ground cracked as they, it was, it was just it, it, it
really brought to life like 2 powerful beings going at it.
And even then, Superman was clearly the stronger one,

(02:09:37):
despite the fact that, well, it I mean, they did have the
disadvantage of not being as strong as him because he was
what's the word I'm looking morehe was more supposed to light
than the yellow sun they were. But still, it was just a great
fight. Right.
And honestly, I think that I'd seen was why the first thing

(02:09:59):
where I thought I really liked Zack Snyders Atkinsons.
And despite the fact that I've seen other like for example, it
wasn't it wasn't 300. I think it was Man of that Man
of Steel fight scene is what sold me on Zack Snyder's action
scenes more so than any other movie I've seen before.
Damn. OK, Well guys, that was a very,
I think that was a very successful first time.

(02:10:20):
I think so in a fight. I think Dylan got hyped from
that because the way you came out with that.
Question. Really want it.
Really want it. Like damn, like now I really
want to think of like 3 good hard hitting questions, Dylan.
Next time. That's gonna be, that's gonna be
next time. Yeah, that's gonna have to be
next time anyway. Episode 10 Zack Snyder I think
there's still a lot more to be said.

(02:10:42):
Even with our extended cut. I think there's way more than.
We didn't even touch the DC EU. I mean, we kind of did here at
the end, but that was just for the sake of me demonstrating how
I want the game to go. We didn't.
Even talk about the Objectivism philosophy.
Yeah, you're. Right.
And that's kind of the, I didn'teven talk about the Owl movie,

(02:11:03):
which I think is key to understanding Zach as a.
Filmmaker, he really wanted to talk about that too.
And I was actually he, he talkedabout it and how he was excited
about as a filmmaker. And I'm like, OK, I, I haven't
seen it, saw me on it. I genuinely, I genuinely believe
that Owl Movie is the key to understanding Zach.
I'm gonna have to watch him. Yeah, damn, that was easy to.

(02:11:23):
You can miss you right away. He's been saying this multiple
times. I'm like, I, I don't know why,
but you know what? I'll watch it.
All right, sounds good. So what I'm basically hearing is
that there will be a Part 2. But for now, I think we just
want to celebrate the fact that we did it.
We we made it 10 episode 10. Like come on, double digits guys
round the plus. Can't wait to be here for

(02:11:46):
episode 11. Yup.
And then episode 12, just keep going until we hit triple
digits. That'll be a day that that can
be that's. Gonna be a fun that's.
Gonna be a fun it. Is.
We're gonna really. Snider it in.
We're gonna really watch. Snider it up.
No active Quiz 3 get snaggered up right now.

(02:12:07):
Look at all that lack of color. But thank you for joining us for
this momentous occasion of episode 10.
Hope you enjoyed yourself. And you know what the best part?
You know what the best part about cinephytes is that you can
join in on those cinephytes is like you can have give your

(02:12:30):
opinions, your bottles. How would you approach the
arguments? How would you approach the
questions? And you know what, even better,
why don't you think of some questions to ask us?
And maybe that will be a cinephyte that we'll look into
the future, basically yourself in it.
Give us your feedback, what you thought, and we'll definitely

(02:12:51):
take it into consideration for any future certified debates.
Yeah, that's great. I agree.
Leave your comments down where you're wherever you leave them,
where they'll be on YouTube, Spotify.
Again, guys, this is episode 10.A lot of people didn't think we
would make it. Actually, I don't think nobody
knows this because really nobodyis in Hollywood.
So a lot of people doubted us, but here we are.

(02:13:13):
So thank you for joining us on this on this experience again.
Hey, Patreon episode, go check it out.
I'll let Dylan plug it in as he signing off.
But thank you for them to be part of this journey, you guys.
I want to echo the sentiments ofboth Cass and Jesse.
I think Cass has a great idea. Pitch us some questions for
cinephites. Thank you for joining us for

(02:13:33):
episode 10 and definitely check out the director's cut of this
episode 10 on Patreon. And.
What can you say on Patreon? Yeah, the Patreon is of course
patreon.com back slash NightfallFilms, subscribe to the YouTube
channel at Nightfall Films, subscribe to the TikTok at

(02:13:56):
Nightfall Films and of course follow the show on Spotify if
you want to support the show. Other than that, I just want to
thank Levi for composing the intro music, Jesse for the
artwork. Thank you to the the 23
dedicated listeners. 10 episodes.
Next big 1 is going to be episode 15 where I am going to

(02:14:20):
deliver the most impassioned defence for one of the most
reviled franchises that you're all wrong about.
Peace plants. Namaste.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Into the Snyder-Verse

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Into the Snyder-Verse

Stuff You Should Know