Judgement Bay: Understanding Michael Bay

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Be inspired to do things differently.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the show.
This is Below the Line podcast brought to you by the nobodies
of Hollywood. I'm Dylan.
I'm Cass. I'm Jay Sui.
That definitely threw us for a loop so.
Awkward pause. Already.

(00:28):
Yeah, Awkward pause already. Welcome to the 15th episode.
It's the 15th episode. I can't believe we're actually
here. But to commemorate this amazing
milestone, made it past five episodes past 10.
That's pretty outstanding, if you ask me.
To commemorate this amazing episode, we are going to give

(00:49):
you something that you probably never thought of before.
A question that's never, that's never been asked, that you
probably didn't care about untilnow.
But hopefully your mind will be changed, even though, even if
you never had an opinion to begin with on it.
But we're going to try to give you a master class on an episode

(01:13):
that may change your mind. I know it's changed mine.
That's hoping it'll change all of yours.
Yeah, that was powerful. Wow, what what a what a you
know, hold the mic. Hold my mic.
I'm sure that registered very well.
It's like I wonder how clapping does.
You can see it peaking right there, yeah.

(01:35):
That's a great intro. I, I don't think I could, I
don't think I could have hyped it up anymore myself, but I'm
gonna let Dylan take it away because this is this is everyone
on this podcast has had their own master class episode,
whether they've known it or not happened Episode 7 with the
Joker episode, episode 13 with the horror episode, and now here
we are episode 15 with the with the one and only Dylan ready to

(02:01):
give the master class on drumroll, please.
Welcome to Judgment Bay, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and
love Michael Bay. The Movie.
All right, ladies and gentlemen,boys and girls, I gathered all

(02:27):
of you here today, all 32 of you.
We love each and everyone of you.
Yes, we love each and everyone of you.
All 32. You matter to us.
Because I believe that art matters.
I believe storytelling. Not as much as.
He has a lot of power. And I also believe that what we

(02:49):
as audiences choose to invest insays something about us.
It says something about our culture.
It says something about the climate in which we live.
And Michael Bay, for one reason or another, is a director that
has consistently made a lot of money when you compare him to

(03:12):
other film makers who also make big budget action blockbusters.
The reason I am so passionate about this is because Michael
Bay may very well be the most reviled director in Hollywood,
and I don't think he deserves that reputation.

(03:33):
I do not think he deserves that at all.
Bay is basically the go to director when people are talking
about bad big budget Hollywood blockbusters, but I personally
think that couldn't be further from the truth.
I believe Michael Bay is an artist and we should take his

(03:53):
work seriously. Well, then that, that is quite
the actually, no, I was going tosay like there are other
directors who I think about that.
I'm like, why is he still givingyou money to make movies, IE a
lot. Then we just, we just praised
them both like Zack Snyder's like another one where I'm like,
you know what, they give you toomuch money to produce movies

(04:15):
that aren't that great. And I think like people were
giving Michael Bay like that same reputation, like, yo, why
are we giving this man so much money to direct like these big
budget movies if they're not even good allegedly?
Exactly. And specifically what I mean is
I'm talking about the casual movie going audiences because I

(04:36):
don't think the majority of people know who people like
Simon W, John Moore, Bryan Singer or Brett Ratner are.
And I would argue even hardcore cinephiles cannot tell you what
a Brett Ratner movie looks or feels like.
The big difference in everythingthat I'm trying to talk about
today is that everyone knows Michael Bay.

(04:59):
We know who he is and we all recognize one of his movies the
second we see it. And you know this is serious
because he may take notes and he's actually reading them.
Usually he may. It takes a lot of notes and then
forgets to read them and doesn'trealize I want.
To judge you right now, this mancan't.
It does exactly. You a master class in the man,

(05:21):
the myth, the legend. Michael Sarabay.
I I said that in the wrong order, but still.
Just sit down. What's the word?
I'm looking for you, little you little harlot.
Sit down. Let the man preach.
Not yet, because this is the beginning of the He hasn't made

(05:41):
his statement yet. So for Are you listening?
Try to see if you agree with what he said, disagree with what
he said, and see if you still hold that opinion after he says
what he has to say. You know, maybe he changes your
mind afterwards or maybe you agreed with him in the beginning

(06:02):
and you agree with him even more.
But for now, it's like formulateyour own, your opinion in your
head right now and see if you hecan change your mind.
I see what you're doing. You're just preparing us for the
dislikes. I see what you did there.
Like I give a No, I'm kidding. OK, I did make my thesis
actually. Boom, mic drop.

(06:24):
Don't think you were listening unfortunately, so I'll restate
it in case it did. Say louder for the people on the
back no. I just missed my chance because
Jesse had the mic. OK, so my assertion is that
Michael Bay is in fact an artistand we should take him
seriously. Yeah, take him seriously.

(06:48):
He's not just the guy that makesmovies and cars go boom.
He's more than that, guys. Yes, Michael Bay is so much more
than explosions. I hate when people reduce him to
that. Bro but he did Transformers.
He did do Transformers which. Every, every, every, every,

(07:09):
every scene in the movie is likeboom, boom, boom.
I know I'm just talking shit because I'm trying to bring out
like the Michael Bay Defenser inyou, Defender in you.
OK. I totally recognize that this is
going to be your episode. So I'm just here to provide like
the like the common man, like, hey, Michael Bay is just blah,

(07:30):
blah, blah, blah, because I knowcasters are like sitting down
decided like he he's already been won over.
So I want to pretend to be the one that has not won over, and
I'm just going to be the guy. I'm going to be the guy that
said, hey, isn't Michael Bay theguy that did Transformers?
You know, the movies that went boom, boom, boom.
Yes. This is where you hit me with,
yeah, but ambulance and the drones and the technical detail.
OK, I'm not going to give you that answer.

(07:51):
But ambulance came after Transformers.
Still Michael Bay though. That's that's my point.
I I would argue that Transformers is probably one of
the most influential blockbusters ever made.
Explain. All right, so I wasn't going to
lead with Transformers, but I'lllet's get it out of the way

(08:13):
because these are his most popular movies, obviously so.
Made him known to a common man. Yeah.
Well, no, because I think bad boys people, he did.
He did bad boys. You're right, never mind, I
take. That yes.
So no, actually. Because I don't think he, yeah,
he did do bad boys. And that definitely launched.

(08:34):
Actually, I don't know if he launched his career, but when
you think, like I've said this before, when you think of bad
boys, you think of bad boys. When you think of Transformers,
you just think Michael Bay. Fairpoint, I see what you're
saying. Well, yeah, for sure.
Transformers definitely like blew up Michael Bay into like
the if he, if he was like, like AB tier director, he moved up to
an A or S tier director after Transformers in terms of like,

(08:58):
like recognition. Yeah, recognition.
Like people. Yeah, like, like people started
naming like memes or like like the Michael Bay effect, you
know, like the whole explosions.That's that's like that's what
I'm, I'm portraying. Like, I'm the guy just like,
hey, that's Michael Bay, the guywho does boom explosions.
Fair enough. Yeah.
Like people like people credit or not credit, but say like,
hey, like that they're mimickinglike Michael Bay, you know, what

(09:20):
does that mean? Basically a movie with
explosions. People have said this about
films. It is the stereotype of Michael
Bay that he is just this loud, bombastic, over the top, Yep
filmmaker. But I just thought.
That was a joke. I I just don't see how you can
make that argument in good faith, because if Michael Bay
was this incompetent hack that everybody wants to pretend he

(09:43):
is, then why can nobody do what he does?
What does he do, pray tell? So OK, I will get into that, but
I also said let's lead with Transformers because those are
his most popular movies. Super popular.
I do believe Transformers. The first one's the best one,

(10:05):
yeah. It is OK, but I do believe
Transformers, Revenge of the Fallen and Dark of the Moon are
three of the most well constructed, thematically rich
and relevant blockbusters in thepast 20 years.
What do you mean by blockbusters?
But like, what do you mean by that?
Because there have been a lot ofmovies since Transformers have

(10:25):
come out. There have been blockbusters.
Yes. So when you think of
blockbusters and you think of definitive blockbusters that
have shaped not just filmmaking but the culture, you think of
things like Jaws, Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter.
And I would argue obviously the most recent example is the MCU,

(10:50):
but I believe Transformers belongs in that same
conversation, if for no other reason than Transformers.
Part of its legacy is influencing the MCU.
And I will get to that But. Interesting.
OK. I see what you mean though.
Like in terms of that block, notblockbuster, sorry,

(11:12):
Transformers. It became like a franchise per
SE. Like it became a big cultural
phenomenon when it came out and more, more movies came out after
that became it became this wholething obviously like the more
movies. Like once a movie comes out, if
you can make sequels to it, you make a franchise.
You basically make like a, you know, like a little cultural

(11:35):
imprint for however long like that media last.
Yeah. I think, yeah, I'll give you
that. Transformers did do that.
And Michael Bay, you know, that was I guess his vision like the
way like he like directed and put those movies together to,
you know, achieve that, even if like the third, the 2nd and the
third one, third one for sure isarguably the worst one.
Oh, I don't agree with that at all.

(11:58):
From the. First three, I don't agree with
that at all. So let me let me just break this
down really briefly. The first Transformers is one of
the best directed blockbusters in the past 20 years.
You said you recently rewatched it for this.
The first one, yeah. Yes, OK.
Just the first one. So that's why I'm going to break
the first one down in this very technical aspect.

(12:22):
Transformers is basically Jurassic Park but with
Transformers. I thought that was Rise of the
Beast. And the reason I say this is
because if you look at the way Michael Bay chose to shoot and
tell the story of the first Transformers, it plays out very
similarly to Jurassic Park. The beginning of Transformers is

(12:46):
the cold open with Blackout, theDecepticon impersonating the
chopper as the Blackhawk. We get the guys on the military
base, and when Blackhawk lands at the base, we don't really see
his full transformation. We get the hints and parallel

(13:06):
that to the very first scene of Jurassic Park where they are
moving the Raptors into their enclosure and we see glimpses.
We hear the roars of the Raptor,but we don't see them in their
entirety. You don't see a full
transformation in the first Transformers until 54 minutes
in, because Michael Bay is leaning into the wonder.

(13:29):
He is leaning into the spectacleof all of this.
Another thing too is Transformers utilizes a lot of
low angle shots and there's a reason for that.
It's because Sam Wiki is us. Sam is the audience surrogate.
We are supposed to see this movie and this world from Sam's
perspective. It really gives us the sense of

(13:51):
scale and scope of these things.Right.
Like how it's always like we're looking up to them and like.
And. Would you say that when you're
comparing it's like Jurassic World or Jurassic Park?
Is it more so that it's like kind of the same movie as
Jurassic Park or is it like thatthey both share like a like a
common story trope type of thing?

(14:12):
Yeah. Are you are you are you are are
like the technical aspects also similar to.
I'm glad you asked. I'm, I'm speaking in more of a
structural and technical aspect,OK, of how Michael Bay chose to
shoot Transformers because I think the impulse would have
been all too easy to lean into the bombast and the explosions.

(14:34):
And this is something, this is the reason I, I'm OK with
leading with Transformers because if you actually watch
the movie intentionally, MichaelBay does not go full Michael Bay
until the third act. And I'm going to bring up one
specific example where Optimist fights, I forget his name, Bone

(14:56):
Crusher on the highway. It's after Sam and Michaela have
secured the Allspark and they'retrying to get it back to the
city where all the Autobots are driving down the highway and
Bone Crusher comes in. That is one of the best directed
fight scenes in a long time because we get this sweeping

(15:19):
camera that moves underneath Bone Crusher as he transforms
again giving us that human perspective.
But what makes the fight so special is that once they move
the fight to the highway betweenOptimist and Bone Crusher,
Michael Bay perfectly frames hisshots from inside the car of

(15:41):
that mom and her son, and the 1st bit of choreography is shot
through the front windshield. He then moves it to the side,
moves it up to the sunroof before Optimus and Bone Crusher
fall off the overpass. The whole thing is kept locked
in that human perspective, and Michael Bay uses all these

(16:02):
different windows within the carto stage the fight.
That seems like a small thing, but again, it anchors us into
that perspective. That's why it feels
overwhelming, because we're in that car with those people.
But it's what people don't realize.
It's that is incredibly hard to do right, And moreover, that

(16:24):
highway chase scene, 99% of thatis done practically.
When Bone Crusher transforms andcrashes through the bus and the
bus explodes, the only fake thing about that shot is
obviously Bone Crusher. Everything else was done
practically. What makes you like so obviously
before you used to be one of those guys who were like, hey,

(16:46):
yeah, Michael Bay is the explosion guy that was you
before. And Transformers I think came
out around that time where you were that guy.
So what caused this change? Because like the way you're
describing Transformers 1 now islike, so like you're describing
like such like the technical detail in such like, like
you're, you're pointing out likethese little things that Michael

(17:07):
Bay does, which I think you're going to bring up in other
movies how he's able to like frame the shots from a human
perspective or even from like anout of like, like the way he
films perspective is something that not a lot of film film
makers can do or do. I think that that that is an
argument you're going to like put out there.
But what changed your mind from being like yo-yo, Michael Bay is
just the explosion guy Transformers sucks, to now being

(17:30):
like, hey yo, Transformers is actually kind of brilliant,
actually. Yes.
I don't think you've ever you ever said that Transformers
sucked. Yes, he did before.
Yeah, I was going to say, let mejust clarify.
I. Did a bigger snob?
I did say that Transformers, allof them basically were bad.
Yes. I used to be one of those guys

(17:50):
that said, oh, this is nothing but a bunch of nonsense.
I said. I believe when we watched the
last Night, I came out of that movie and said that was the most
nonsensical piece of crap I've ever seen.
I don't remember. So yeah, I will.
I will own up to that. I admit that I was a
Transformers slash Michael Bay hater.

(18:13):
What changed my mind, believe itor not, was pain and gain.
Really. Yes.
The one with the rock and Mark Wahlberg, Yes.
Really. Pray tell why?
How? OK.
When where I. Feel like we're getting off the
beaten path here, but I'm sure it'll all come back together.
It'll come back to Transformers,trust me.

(18:34):
So one of Michael Bay's biggest influences, Joel and Ethan Coen,
they directed movies like Fargo.I don't know if you've seen the
original. Fargo No.
OK so a a very common trope withCoen's brothers movies is they
involve criminals. But the problem is all these

(18:55):
criminals are incredibly stupid and the sort of commentary of
Coen brothers movies is to show you that crime really does not
pay. It is very ineffective.
Michael Bay has said again and again that the Coen Brothers are
one of his biggest influences. But if you look at Michael Bay's

(19:16):
storytelling style compared to the Coen Brothers, it does not
line up at all. If you look at something like
Fargo or O Brother, Where Art Thou?
The way those are shot and told compared to something like Bad
Boys 2 or Ambulance, there's obviously a very big difference

(19:37):
in the direction style. Right.
But what pain and Gain showed meis that this was finally Michael
Bay's Cohen's brother movie. Because throughout his
filmography, Michael Bay uses a lot of actors from Coen brother
movies, from Spielberg movies, and from really Scott movies.

(19:58):
But this was the first time thatI actually saw Michael Bay sort
of channel the thematic depth that he's really capable of and.
Obviously I didn't think this atthe time, but Pain and Gain I
would argue is probably a top three Michael Bay movie, if for
no other reason than it is a social commentary on the MAGA

(20:22):
movement. And this movie came out before
the 2016 election. So Michael Bay had not only the
sort of social instincts, but hehad the foresight to see that
this was an issue in American culture.
Damn. Like.

(20:42):
I I'm just thinking like I remember watching painting game
and I remember thinking like, Yo, this is just like a fun, you
know, like a like it's a fun action type of movie and the way
you're breaking it down, it's like, damn, you know what,
you're making Michael Bay. So I'm more profound, Sir.
I'm going to tread lightly. You're starting to turn me over,
Mr. I'm going to tread lightly because I don't want to get

(21:04):
attacked. Well, I'm ready.
I got I got my pitchfork ready go.
Let me just give you the basic premise.
Pain and Gain is about a group of bodybuilders, all Americans,
right, who believe that they areentitled to a good and
successful life, and they do so by blaming the other, whether

(21:28):
it's immigrants, whether it's someone of a different
ethnicity, and they choose to take it out on these people and
take those resources for themselves.
If you cannot see the relevancy in Pain and Gain a movie that
came out in 2013 and then look at everything that has played
out from 2016 to the present, Michael Bay clearly has a lot on

(21:53):
his mind. Damn, I was going to say
something right now actually. OK, I remember I was, I was
thinking something as you were saying it and it just it left
my, my, my thoughts, but I came back right now here.
Here's what it is. Don't worry.
Don't worry, audience. This is like the the hot takes
you live for. No, I keep it in.

(22:14):
I just want to say like, yo, I didn't like the way you wear.
That was very specific. Like almost as if you were
talking about a certain group ofpeople.
Like, yeah, like the way you theway you like, you know, the
different people that you know, if you entitled and do this and
that and hate immigrants and this and that.
I'm like the way you're wording this sounds very specific.

(22:36):
It's almost as you're almost. It's almost as this as if this
movie is a meta commentary on people in society, just like
Mickey 17 was but before Mickey 17.
Yes, and I would argue the pain and gain did it better.
I probably did. What are you trying to say?
What are you saying? There's a deeper message in pain
and gain besides these muscle headed idiots that absolutely oh

(22:58):
what's, what's the deeper message?
What do you think Michael Bay was trying to say in that film?
I believe that Michael Bay was trying to say that this attitude
that some people in the US have about feeling entitled to a
quote, UN quote good life that they deserve because they were
born here is a threat to society.

(23:21):
But we can even take a more micro view of this.
It is a threat to certain groupsof people and all you need to do
is watch the movie in order to understand that.
But also, I think part of what Pain and Gain is trying to say
is that there is room for everybody here.

(23:44):
Well, what do you mean? There's room for everybody in
the. United States.
OK, who's everybody? Part of what makes the country
special is that it affords you, anyone the opportunity to come
here and try to make something of yourself.
For example, look at what we're doing.
We're sitting down talking aboutmovies.
Are we making money off of this?Not right now, But the fact is

(24:08):
there are people in the United States that make money by
sitting down and talking about things.
Name any other place in the world where you can do that.
I think, well, not with the power of the Internet, it's
easier before, but in the certainly in the US, like here's
like the land of opportunity where it's like anybody can do
it here. You can come up from like

(24:30):
nothing like make make make something of yourself with
nothing which in in the country is sure, you might have Wi-Fi
Internet, but it might be harderto reach reach your voice out
there come in those countries versus the US which like which
which with like a large audience.
Exactly. The Internet has made it more
accessible and has sort of democratized this opportunity.

(24:52):
But the US does present a sort of higher ceiling, so to speak,
right than any other country. Like you said, it just affords
you more opportunity. And I believe that part of Pain
and Gaines messaging is that allof that is available for
everybody and that's what makes the country special.

(25:12):
It's not this sense of nationalism and misguided sense
of pride and entitlement that makes the country.
It is very much the opportunity and the diverse group of people
within it. Right, see, like I never thought
about that movie that way. I remember watch.
I haven't rewatched that movie in a while, but I remember why

(25:34):
when I watched it. Like this is a fun movie and the
way you're breaking it down, like how like you actually said
more is like, damn. So Michael Bay was was really
trying to say something here versus like, Hey, this is just
another Michael Bay fun action movie.
Yes, you're. You're actually trying to make
the kiss that Michael Bay is nottour.
Yes, Michael Bay is absolutely an auteur.

(25:54):
Michael Bay the filmmaker, not Michael Bay the movie maker.
Right here. All right.
If you read the original book onauteur theory as it relates to
filmmaking, there are three qualities that one needs in
order to be considered an auteur.
One, they need a distinct visualstyle.

(26:16):
We all know Michael Bay has that.
Yep. 2 They need to have a distinct personality as a
filmmaker. Their movies need to have a
certain behavior, so to speak, right?
We all know Michael Bay movies have that.
Yep. And the third quality is that
they need to have a distinct politique, meaning that they

(26:38):
need to have a specific worldview of how they not just
see the world, but how they see the characters in their own
films. And Pain and Gain, I would
argue, is a prime example of Michael Bay having a distinct
politique. Interesting.

(26:59):
When you when I heard that word,when I when I heard that word,
at first I thought like, wait, this political but no, I I think
what you mean like a world view.I think I'm thinking about like
every Michael Bay movie that I've seen, at least like they
does like the world does have like a certain world view, at
least like the world view logic.The in world universe logic
makes sense within its own universe, as absurd as it might

(27:22):
be. Sometimes I lie Transformers.
Yes. Well, I'm glad you brought that
up because. A lot of bad boys because like
come on like those the way like those cops get away with some
shit like yo come on like. I think part of the reason that
Michael Bay movies feel so absurd to some people is because

(27:42):
they all exist in this heightened reality.
Now obviously there aren't alienrobots that come to Earth and
transform into cars. You don't know that.
Fair enough. You're right.
I don't know that. But every single Michael Bay
movie takes place in this heightened reality where
everything is sort of dialed up to 11.

(28:04):
And there's a reason for that. There is.
Entertainment. For not just that, but for
Michael Bay's aesthetic and style and the way that he
approaches filmmaking in general, it is because Michael
Bay comes from the world of TV commercials and music videos.
Michael Bay began his career directing music videos and TV

(28:29):
commercials. So the reason, yes, the reason
Michael Bay has this very specific style is because he
came from this world where information has to be delivered
as quickly as possible and needsto be extremely clear and every
shot is basically designed for maximum impact.
And what Michael Bay has done ishe has taken that and brought

(28:52):
that over to feature length films.
I see what you're saying. Damn.
So Michael Bay, he make he, he only makes films.
He is not only an auteur, but he's got a vision too.
Yes, he absolutely has a vision.Michael Bay has won several Clio

(29:15):
Awards, which are basically Academy Awards for commercials.
Like what Red Bull commercials? You know what is that?
Is that where he got his experience from just directing a
lot of Red Bull commercials and making things go Big Bang bang?
I'm glad you asked and that's where you got technical detail
like yo information alive information in 15 seconds go.
The most famous commercial Michael Bay is known for is the

(29:39):
commercial that launched the slogan Got Milk.
Michael Bay is responsible. For that.
Entire slogan. The initial commercial wherein
the main character, I guess you would call him of that
commercial, is eating a peanut butter sandwich.
And in the establishing shots, Michael Bay tells us that he is

(30:02):
a history buff, He knows a lot, and he's listening to the radio.
And they ask a question for a prize that they know that we
know this man knows the answer to.
But because he's eating the peanut butter sandwich, his
mouth is heavily coated and he'sunable to speak properly.

(30:23):
So he tries to call in and give the answer, hence got milk to
sort of refresh the mouth and keep the saliva production
flowing. But the point is that commercial
won the Golden Clio Award, whichis basically the best picture
award for commercials. I didn't know commercials got I
didn't know this. I didn't know there was an

(30:44):
Oscars for commercials. Yeah, used to be.
Are they still are you? Can you still win a Clio?
You can. You still can.
There's still commercials. Not as good as they used to be.
Because. Michael Bay doesn't do them
anymore. Actually, you know, what, if you
haven't seen the new Apple, Saudi or radio commercial that
went viral, like that's a good commercial right there.
You know, hey culture, it's not cultural appropriation if it's

(31:08):
if it's appreciating cultural norms over there.
I haven't seen the commercials. I don't know what you're talking
about. Well, if this episode ever went
viral, why? If this episode ever went viral?
You're welcome, guys. I got us there.
Just give a very hot take. As you're, as you're watching
this episode, that that ad is going to come on.

(31:30):
Listening to this episode, that ad's going to come on.
Actually, no, like now that picture, curious minds like just
look it up. Just like the Apple, Saudi
Arabia, Arabia commercial that just came out like two or three
months ago. Saudi Arabia, Yes, Saudi Arabia
commercial that came out like 3 months ago.
OK, so I. Don't.
That's going to win a Clio for sure.
Another look up. A commercial, a way for it to be

(31:53):
shown to me while. We are on the topic of Michael
Bay's sort of origins, right? Michael Bay also directed a lot
of music videos, and I would saythe most pivotal music video of
his career is the music video hedirected for Meatloaf's song.

(32:13):
Objects in the mirror may appearcloser than they are.
This seven minute and 42 second music video has almost every
single Michael Bay trick in the book, including kids looking at
biplanes, A low angle shot of people looking up as an aircraft

(32:35):
flies overhead. America has the color blue and
orange. It has American flags.
It has shots of people inside air hangers where they are
silhouetted against the sky. It has sunsets.
It has American flags. It has really dramatic lighting.
And, of course, explosions. Boom, I was waiting for that.
Yes, but it's kind of, it's kindof remarkable that this single

(33:00):
music video contains every single thing that you need to
know about Michael Bay if you don't know anything about him as
a filmmaker, which I think at this point most people do if
you're nominally familiar with movies at all.
But this music video almost actsas the Michael Bay Rosetta
Stone. It's kind of fascinating because

(33:22):
almost every single shot in thismusic video is seen in Pearl
Harbor. When this music?
When did this music video come out?
Sometime in the 90s. OK, so there's like Michael Bay,
not that in his purest form, butit's still him like 30 years
ago. Yes, this was a while ago,
believe it or not. I do not have the exact year

(33:42):
here, but. Wow, what's the point in taking
notes? Well, if you can't reference a
year. I did my best.
Your best wasn't good enough. Oh.
Not here on the Nobody's in Hollywood, the.
Music video also has, of course,objectified women.
Yes, that's kind of also like Michael Bay, like like an
attack. Maybe I was in an attack on

(34:04):
Michael Bay, like, you know, like the way Megan Fox was
portrayed in Transformers. I disagree with that
wholeheartedly. OK, here we go.
I disagree with that wholeheartedly.
This is something that I have wanted to point out for.
A long You think she wanted to be looked at like that?
You think she wanted to be sexually objectified on that

(34:24):
movie? No, I don't, but let's not
pretend. She wanted those low cut angles.
You know this. Is Hollywood?
How you look matters, right? That sounds shitty to say,
right? It is but how you look.
Let's not pretend that your physical appearance is not a
factor in whether or not you geta role.
Damn, I thought you were going to come at the angle like you

(34:46):
know what, it's a product of itstime because like you wouldn't
see those kind of movies made today, but like that because.
People are cowards. Say more.
Come on. So.
Try to guess cancel. I honestly think that, again,
this is Hollywood. How you look matters.

(35:07):
And I'm not saying this is the most important thing.
But if you try to deny that Megan Fox in either the first
Transformers or Revenge of the Fallen is not arguably the most
beautiful an actress has looked on screen, you're lying.
You're lying to yourself. Think of a single performance

(35:29):
where a woman has looked as goodas Megan Fox in the first two
Transformers movies. The only other performance that
comes to mind is Margot Robbie in Once Upon a Time in
Hollywood. And.
Then you could argue that she's sexualized in Once Upon a Time
in Hollywood, just in a different way 'cause Quentin

(35:51):
Tarantino is a freak and has thefoot fetish.
Right. The difference with Michael Bay
is he is not afraid to be who heis.
The reason I brought up his commercial background is because
I think it's crucial to understanding who he is as a
filmmaker. Michael Bay exists in this
heightened reality. He comes from a world where

(36:11):
everything is fast, it's sexy, it's expensive, and that's what
he's trying to communicate in his movies.
He is trying to entertain you first and foremost.
That's not to say he doesn't have more on his mind, but more
than anything, Michael Bay is trying to entertain audiences.
And I think if you look at the amount of money his movies have

(36:33):
made, he's successful in doing so.
He has incredible commercial instincts.
Right. So would you say that Michael
Bay is more so like he's well, obviously he's commercially
successful, but it's because he makes like these commercial
products per SE or is it becauselike the, well, actually, no,
'cause I think the commercial people recognize him more for

(36:53):
like the commercial products he does like his, his highlights,
like, you know what, the explosions like, you know, like
his, his call his, his trademarks or callbacks or
whatever. People know him more than for
that. Then like, hey, you know,
painting again is kind of like talking about MAGA before MAGA.
No, I don't disagree with what you're saying, But I think it's

(37:15):
pretty obvious in my opinion that the reason that Michael Bay
is so well known is because he is able to strike a chord with
audiences. And I think part of the reason
that Michael Bay gets so much pushback is because people are a
little bit uncomfortable with what that might imply.

(37:36):
And. What does that imply?
I think it implies that audiences clearly respond to
their baser instincts. That's true.
I mean it, that's funny. I don't know what else you want
me to say, cuz I'm just. I'm not gonna sit here and give
you some pretentious answer. I honestly think it shows that
people. And men sex cells.

(37:58):
Exactly. Give in to their baser instincts
and Michael. Bay capitalizes on that.
Yes, Michael Bay knows how to dothat better than anybody.
Because again. Better than anyone, better than
his peers. Absolutely.
That's crazy. I would argue Michael Bay is a
master technician. He is a technical genius of the

(38:19):
highest order that is rivaled bymaybe two to three film makers
in Hollywood at best. But so, so do are you going to
get, are you giving Michael Bay his praises because of his
technical aspect or like from his like stories telling
storytelling perspective as wellor cuz like, cuz cuz I'm I'm
listening to you talk about the technical perspective and how he

(38:42):
frames cameras. And I think that does sound
impressive from like the way you're explaining it, like, you
know, the transformer scene where you go from here to here
to here, always staying within the human scene again.
Yeah, like, and I really want attention.
I remember like the first time when you describe like the
Batman car scene where I'm like,you know what, let me rewatch
that scene again. Cuz like that scene is very
claustrophobic cuz it's always within like the car.

(39:03):
It's always within the frame shot of the car.
That Penguin, you know, just feels Claustrofo aerobic, which
I didn't pick up on that until you explained it and then I
rewatched it and I was like, oh,I see what you mean now.
When you talk about technical details that like, you know,
creatives do. It's something Michael Bay like
he has a lot of technical skill from his it sounds like his from

(39:25):
making readable commercials and got milk commercials and music
videos. And, you know, like, translating
that into a big commercial blockbuster movies that generate
a lot of revenue and like people, whether they'd like it
or not, people do watch them. Yes, like I.
I'm guilty of paying to watch Transformers in theaters one
through 5. So I I would give credit to

(39:46):
Michael Bay on both a technical level and a storytelling level.
And here's the reason. Tell me the reason.
So many people, when they criticize Michael Bay, it's
always the same thing. It's always the same thing.
But the. The reason I take issue with
those criticisms is because the way they word it is.

(40:07):
They word it in this way that makes it sound like Michael Bay
is incapable of making a traditional movie where he holds
his shots and he doesn't pull out his usual bag of tricks.
That is demonstrably false. Right.
Because in 2005, Michael Bay made a science fiction film that
absolutely no one has watched called The Island.

(40:30):
And in that movie, you see a Michael Bay that you never see
before. He holds his shots longer.
He actually lets the dialogue scenes play out.
He doesn't spin the camera. Everything isn't rapidly
cutting. There aren't explosions left and
right. There isn't this weird juvenile
humor in the movie. It's not until you get to the

(40:53):
very end of the island, maybe the the last 34 minutes or so
where he indulges himself. And even then I would argue it's
really only one sequence where he allows himself to do the fuck
yeah Michael Bay thing. If you were to show the island
to someone and you didn't tell them who directed it, I

(41:15):
guarantee you they would be clamoring for that person to
direct an MCU film. Has Michael Bay ever directed a
movie like The Islander since oris that was that like a time?
Like you know what? Let me fuck around and shoot
this like this one time. Yeah, that was a one time thing.
But the reason I say it's demonstrably false is also

(41:37):
because of Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor is not a
traditional movie. Obviously, Pearl Harbor was made
with the intention of being the next Titanic.
They wanted it to be a love story set amidst A tragedy,
right? And they wanted it to win
awards. And they picked Michael Bates

(41:58):
directed. Oscar Bay.
Oscar Bay. The success of Bad Boys of the
Rock of Armageddon and it is well documented that people who
worked on Pearl Harbor, they said the first day of shooting
Michael Bay was directing it like a real movie in the sense

(42:21):
that he was holding his shots. I can't remember the exact name
of the crew member, but someone said the first day of shooting
Pearl Harbor, Michael Bay approached it like a classical
film. He was holding his shots, he
wasn't cutting every 5 seconds. He said this is exactly how he
described it. It was like watching an Italian

(42:43):
talk without his hands. So it is well documented from
members of the crew and Ben Affleck, who starred in the
movie that when they first beganproduction on Pearl Harbor, it
was pretty much the next Titanic.
He was letting the scenes breathe.
He was trying to make it more poetic and still.

(43:06):
But here's the great part in About maybe halfway into the
production of Pearl Harbor, Michael Bay just decided, you
know what, we're not going to dothis.
And that same crew member that said it was like watching an
Italian talk without his hands, He said within the next few
weeks, we were shooting a regular Michael Bay movie.

(43:29):
Things were exploding, the camera was spinning, we were
cutting. He was constantly moving the
camera and it was chaos. And you do.
Do you know what Michael Bay's response to this was?
What tell me? He said, and I quote, I don't
change my style for anybody. Pussies do that.

(43:51):
So Michael Bay clearly has the self-awareness.
He knows what he is doing and heknows how it come comes across
to audiences. He doesn't care.
That's what he wants to make andhe knows it's going to resonate
with them. Damn, Michael.
Michael based it on business. Exactly.

(44:12):
I I honestly think that's an amazing question.
I I. Respect that, you know, I
respect that even more. Exactly.
And even if, even though I'm nota particularly big fan of Pearl
Harbor, if you look at the actual Pearl Harbor attack scene
again, that that alone is is an example of Michael Bay's

(44:37):
technical genius. People have no clue how hard it
is to do something like that. The scene where they dropped the
mortar shell and the mortar shell is falling clockwise and
Michael Bay spins the camera counterclockwise.
People think, oh, that's just a cool dynamic trick.

(44:59):
No, it's not. Several other directors have
tried doing that and it looks like garbage.
This is something that takes skill, and BAE has proven time
and time again that he knows howto do this.
In fact, he might be the only one that knows how to do it.
The spinning. The spinning camera shot.

(45:21):
I think you've told me this before, that directors have
actually come to him for his opinion on movies, Directors
that you wouldn't expect. Yes.
If if, if you. But the common man wouldn't
expect for like Chris Nolan asked his opinion on that.
When when Christopher Nolan was shooting The Dark Knight Rises

(45:42):
and he was shooting that plane scene, he asked Michael Bay for
a console because he wanted to know the best way to shoot it.
And when he screened the 1st 6 minutes of The Dark Knight
Rises, guess who was invited? Michael Bay.
And it was a great, it was a great shot.
Yeah, it's probably one of the only good sequences in the
movie. Best sequence I think I want to

(46:06):
say. Actually, I think the stock
market Chase is pretty, pretty solid, yeah.
I don't know if it's better thanthe, I don't.
Think so, but I like it. Yeah, I know that I did enjoy
that one, but. I'm glad you did.
I'm glad you brought that up because there are some other
examples. This is another example that I
want to bring up real quick is in the GI Joe movie.

(46:28):
I can't remember if it's the first one or the second one.
Michael Bay. I would argue his signature shot
is when he spins the camera and he has his actors stand up stand
up vertically into the frame. And it looks so natural it does.
In GI Joe also, I think that terrible Battleship movie,

(46:49):
whoever directed those, they tryto mimic this shot, but it just
doesn't work. And it doesn't work for two
reasons. Because Michael Bayes, when he
does this shot, he has the actors move vertically.
And when they did it in the GI Joe movie, they're standing
still in the frame, but they're just spinning the camera.

(47:12):
And secondly, Michael Bay uses atelephoto lens when he does this
shot, which gives everything very natural parallax and it
makes the background have that spinning effect because it's not
enough to just move the camera, you need to make the right
lensing choices. And if you watch Michael Bay's

(47:33):
Imitators, I I'm referencing a lot of movies here, but you can
just look up the scenes on YouTube.
It's fine in isolation. We we, we reference like 16
movies in the Pixar episode, but.
You can look up these scenes in isolation to see what I mean.
Michael Bay's imitators, they have no idea why that shot
works. And then if you look when

(47:54):
Michael Bay does it, it feels like the most epic thing on the
planet. Completely effortless.
Mm. Hmm, you know what?
This this would make for a greatclip and just have those two
scenes in the background. Just oh.
You're right. Make it happen, Jesse, I'll
make. It happen.
Another director that has come out and very publicly praised

(48:16):
Michael Bay as James Cameron whodirected Titanic, which I think
is kind of ironic because Pearl Harbor was intended to be the
next Titanic. James Cameron has said what
Michael Bay does is extremely difficult.
He likes what I like to call thebig train set.
I've reverse engineered his style and it's very difficult to

(48:38):
do. He does it beautifully.
Steven Spielberg has also come out and very publicly praised
Michael Bay, saying he is the single best filmmaker for
capturing pure visual adrenaline.
So you have all these respected film makers come out and voice

(49:01):
words of support for Michael Bay.
The only people that criticize him are the people in the
audience. Fucking knuckle fucks like me
when I was 14 years old saying oh this movie sucks.
I remember, I don't remember yousaying like that.
Listen, and I I would comment, but you're still gonna watch his
next movie, right? And you'd say yes, yes.

(49:23):
Because that that's the thing about Michael Bay.
Criticize his movie is all you want.
You show up to them. Yes, and you pointed this out to
me. This was actually a while ago
when we had conversations about this because.
We've had a lot of conversationsabout this.
I've held on to this basically since the pandemic, Yeah.
I had nothing to watch. So for whatever reason, some God

(49:45):
forsaken reason, I started to watch all of Michael Bay's work
and this is what started me on the path.
He sent me a lot of text messages like but it's like you,
you don't understand, like you, you need to re watch the movies.
I think he might be the greatestfilmmaker of all time.
It's just like repeated text messages like that.
But the point is, you had specifically made this point

(50:08):
that I think is excellent. Michael Bay knew the exact
moment to stop making Transformers movies.
They were all extremely profitable, but as soon as the
last night came out and everyonesaid, I think, you know, this
might be overstaying it's welcome, Michael Bay pieced out.
Who? Who else would do that?

(50:28):
Like, I don't think anyone else would do that.
They'd keep beating that dead horse until they take over.
So last night still made $700 million.
For as bad as people think that movie is, it made $700 million.
It was the only Bay film that didn't hit a billion.
Yeah. And even then that was still a

(50:48):
huge profit. Yes.
So what we're saying is, next time Michael Bay is gonna direct
the movie, invest in it. Of course, especially if it's an
original Michael Bay movie. Well, what I'm hearing is like,
I think I'm hearing like the praise for Michael Bay and that
he is a great technical directorin terms of the the shots that

(51:10):
he can do, which are well suitedfor like action oriented type of
movies kind of thing. Like, you know, like the whole
spinning camera. Yes, I don't think that like
that. How would that be incorporated
into, you know, like a ROM com or like a drama per SE take
then? I believe that before his career
is up, Michael Bay will direct ahuman drama.

(51:32):
I don't want to say it's going to be a romance story, but I
believe he will direct a real heavy human drama and it will
win best picture. I watch it take.
I thought you were going to say before his career ends, he's
going to make a Marvel movie or ADC movie.
He'd be Marvel would be incredibly lucky to have Michael

(51:53):
Bay. They would.
But see, the reason I, I don't know if it would happen is
because of that story I told youabout Pearl Harbor is Michael
Bay had the sort of conviction in his own style, in his own.
This is why I say he has self-awareness.
He knows who he is, what he likes to do.

(52:14):
He has fun. Yes, he had this sort of
wherewithal to say, no, I'm not going to make Titanic, but for
Pearl Harbor, I'm going to make the movie I want.
Only pussies placate studios andthey let him get away with it.
I don't think Marvel would. DC would.

(52:35):
DC absolutely would. Well, this new DC.
Would. Yeah, James.
I don't know about the old DC I could.
See, James, James Gunn and Michael Bay, I think actually
have a lot in common. I think their personalities
would actually work together very well.
I think they would collaborate very well.
If James, let's say James wrote the screenplay, Bay directs and

(52:59):
James is obviously producer because he's the head of the
DCEUI, think that movie would come out really amazing.
I'd watch that, but like, I don't know much about Michael
Bay's personality. Let me throw this out there
because I know the I don't know if it's who was the first Green

(53:20):
Lantern, Hal Jordan. Beat me to it, Hal.
Jordan, Ryan Reynolds and Jon Stewart have military
backgrounds. Let Michael Bay direct that.
Tell me. That way I can yes.
Oh, that actually. That's a gusty.
That's a good pitch. Yeah, I can see that.

(53:43):
You're getting me excited for something that knows is ever
going to happen. But this is like just indicative
of like this is just what this type of movie would suit Michael
Bay's style versus like, you know what we're gonna wait for
like, you know, a 70 year old Michael Bay to be like, all
right, I got one more in me. Let me do and finally do my my,

(54:03):
my human drama. You know, let me finally do my
up live action. Yes, this will be the.
This will be the movie that willwin Dylan over.
He hated up the cartoon, but maybe he'll like it when I do up
the live action. With explosions, I think you're
spot on, though. It'll be when he's 70 or 80 that

(54:23):
Michael Bay will say, you know what?
I'm reaching the twilight of my career.
I'm going to shut everybody up once and for all.
Here is Les Miserables, the human drama but about US
wrestling with institutionalizeddiscrimination and racism, and
the main character has to overcome her struggle with grief

(54:45):
and depression. Best picture winner, best
director for Michael Bay. Damn.
Do they have that? For TV.
Series. No, I'm saying he will make this
movie at the very end of his career.
OK. I'll take.
We'll see what happens that we have, hopefully.
I feel like a lot of years for Michael Bay to make this.

(55:08):
Yeah, I wanna call it his magnetopus.
But like this drama or like thismovie that's out of his usual
realm. Professional film.
Yeah, that he's new film. Yeah.
His last bow, How old is he? Michael Bay is 62.
Wow, really? I thought it was going to be in
his four. Yes.
Yeah, he he. Looks.
Ageless. Yeah, he does.

(55:29):
No, I'm just kissing his ass. So we only so we only have to
wait 10 more years for Bob. Dylan.
Exactly, exactly I. Can wait 10 years.
You know what I I see like the how like the way you're
presenting Michael Bay and how you're, you're, you're showing
like this different, not even the different, just like a more,

(55:50):
I guess nuanced, yeah. Portrayal of Michael Bay.
Like what he really is doing. Like you're saying like, hey,
like even though he makes like these movies, like like really,
really look at what he's doing and how he's doing it, like with
like his technical shots and like how he's able to achieve
like all these different frames and perspectives.
Because it's true. Like I think I have seen more
some movies where like the perspective is bad.

(56:12):
Everything about this angle and shot is bad.
Just like Craven, the movie was so bad.
Castor will defend it, but that movie was so bad, terrible,
horribly. Here's something that I want to
bring up because I think it it will also help you, give you a

(56:33):
greater understanding of MichaelBay.
Film is inherently a visual medium.
That's not to say it's the only thing that matters.
It's not. The writing obviously matters.
The performances matter. Right.
The emotions matter. The music, the ambiance,
Exactly. It's all these things coming
together that just make it worthwhile to watch in a

(56:56):
theater. So Michael Bay attended film
school at Wesleyan and he attended film school with Joss
Whedon and Joss Whedon has said.The Joss Whedon, yes.
The Whedon that I fucked up, Justice League, yes.
And we had to wait four years toget the Snyder Cut.
But also. That Josh.
Whedon the first Avengers. Oh.
Shit, he did do that. Yes.

(57:16):
People did like that one. And Joss Whedon said of Michael
Bay's student thesis film. What did he say?
It was way better than mine. That's all he said.
Damn, that's all he said. But what I want to bring up is
Michael Bay had a professor at Wesleyan named Janine Bay
Singer, and this is what she hadto say about Michael Bay just as

(57:39):
a film maker. Over the years I've seen a great
deal of material from freshmen, but I have yet to see anything
like Michael Bay's high school photos.
They were astonishing, revealingan amazing eye for composition
and instinct for capturing movement and an inherent
understanding of an implied narrative, she has also said.

(58:01):
I don't even know what those words mean.
She. Has also said that on my
tombstone it's going to say Jeanine Basinger, beloved wife,
mother and taught Michael Bay because she sees what he is
capable. Of that's fine.
But let me so you let me break it down real quick.
Just I'll, I'll try to be brief.And ours will say.

(58:24):
Shook his hand. Amazing eye for composition.
I'll just say this right now, you could pick any shot in any
Michael Bay movie and it will bethe best shot in any director's.
Any other director's movie. You could pick a random shot
from Pain and Gain and it would be the best shot in a Chris
Nolan movie. I have no problem saying that.

(58:48):
The best shot in what way? Like when you say that Michael
Bay is like, kind of like betterthan his peers?
Like in what way are his shots better per SE?
So. Because Michael.
Bay because they're more dynamicor like the framing or.
Yes, because Michael Bay designsevery shot for maximum impact.
It gives every shot this ridiculous sense of composition

(59:10):
in the framing. When I say the best shot in any
Bay movie would be or the any shot in any Bay movie would be
the best shot in any other director's movie, what I mean is
you could pick a random shot from Ambulance from the Rock and
it would be the best shot in a Chris Nolan movie.
In a Denny Villeneuve movie, it wouldn't matter.

(59:34):
But the reason I say that is because of the composition, the
lighting, and the implied narrative.
Because a very common criticism of Michael Bay's movies is I
don't understand what's going on.
Do you not understand what's going on?
Or do you not understand how to watch a movie?
Because let me ask you this do you understand the stakes in the

(59:58):
Transformers films? Well, they usually like it.
It usually in every single movie.
Hey guys, if we don't do this, it's going to be the end of the
world. OK, I think they imply it more
than they say it though. Let me it's like I'm going to
point out a specific example. If they get this cube, guys, if
the Decepticons get this cube, it's the end of the world I

(01:00:20):
think. They do say that.
I'm going to point out a specific example.
Let's take the forest fight fromTransformers Revenge of the
Fallen. I know.
Yeah, picture for us. That is one of the best action
scenes of the 2000s for the. End of the world.
So the reason I referenced that scene specifically?

(01:00:43):
Yeah, why this scene? There is a moment where Optimist
grabs a tree and he swings it upwards.
Best CGI fight? Megatron.
But then the shot cuts and the tree is suddenly swinging very
close to where Sam is and a lot of people look at that and say
wait a minute. But that's not what Optimus did.

(01:01:06):
Why is the tree at such a low angle when he just hit Megatron
with it? That's not the point.
Again, when his professor said implied narrative, what she is
saying is that Michael Bay has such a talent for visual
storytelling that the continuityor the spatial clarity is almost
irrelevant because you still understand what is going on.

(01:01:28):
Optimist is not just fighting Megatron, he's trying to protect
Sam. So it doesn't matter that the
way the scene is edited seems confusing.
What matters is that you understand that Sam is in
danger. And Optimist isn't just trying
to defeat Megatron, he's trying to protect Sam.
So the way that this fight is cut up, it's it's such a

(01:01:50):
beautiful scene. It almost plays out like an
orchestra. Michael Bay is like a conductor.
The way that he weaves all of this in and out you the way it's
not just the visuals, it's it's the sound design.
When Optimist delivers that uppercut and hits Megatron and
you get that like it just it, itjust sounds so right.

(01:02:15):
And then when Megatron calls in the Decepticons you have this
sweeping camera shot where Starscream comes in and
transforms mid flight and lands.But as he transforms, you can
hear the wings of his F22 change.
And it does this like, woosh, woosh, woosh, woosh, woosh.
It's the way that the visuals sync with the sound design and

(01:02:39):
the way that BAE shoots all of this against a natural setting.
You have these really technically advanced robots
fighting in an area of pure nature and life.
But it's it's one of the most memorable scenes in the entire
franchise. And it's because all of this
comes together like even though,yes, the Transformers are CGI,

(01:03:02):
the fact is Michael Bay still has to frame Starscream coming
into the shot, transforming mid flight and landing and having
the sound design sync with that.And it all works beautifully.
And this is the last thing I will say about this fight is

(01:03:23):
that despite how much it prioritizes sensationalism, you
still understand perfectly what's going on.
Right When people say, I don't know what's happening in the
Transformers movies, I I just don't believe you.
It's very obvious to delineate the Autobots from the
Decepticons, because the Autobots have more colour, they

(01:03:44):
have more contrast. All the Decepticons are either
grey or some variation of it, orblack, and they tend to
transform into military vehicles.
There's only a few exceptions where Decepticons use civilian
vehicles, but for as much as this scene prioritizes sensation
and feeling over spatial clarityand choreography, you still

(01:04:08):
understand perfectly what's going on.
Optimist is fighting 3 Decepticons at once while trying
to protect Sam. It's just it's it's some of the
most complicated but beautifullyexecuted blockbuster filmmaking
we've ever seen. And the fact that people don't
appreciate it I think is a bummer because they gobble up

(01:04:30):
garbage like the MCU. Right.
I feel like if there was any other director who directed that
exact scene that you were describing, you would have like
tore them a new one. If this is Christopher Nolan
directing this. And you would have been like,
yo, wow, look at the way he shotand framed the shot and flipped
with the continuity and like thetrees over here when it should

(01:04:50):
be up here. Why is Sam down there?
But. That's not true, because I'll
give you an example because Thisis why this kind of stuff can be
effective. People complain about the fight
choreography in Batman Begins. Who's they?
A lot of people. That's just online.
But here's the reason I think itworks.
Specifically at the dock scene when we first see Batman for the

(01:05:12):
first time, there are a lot of cuts when Batman beats up all of
Falcone goons. The reason that works is because
that is a technique of filmmaking called contrast of
continuum of movement, meaning the audience is constantly
jumping perspectives, but it's used to communicate the idea
that what is happening is a force so much greater than we

(01:05:36):
are able to fathom that it's scary.
So the reason the choreography in Batman Begins works because
this is the debut of Batman and he is overpowering all these
bums that it makes perfect sensethat all they're seeing is fists
and legs and a Cape. It's it's filmmaking.

(01:05:57):
That's just an excuse to not be just.
That's the excuse that film makers who can't make a one shot
like an old boy, That's the excuse that they use.
No, all these little cuts for their action scenes, just doing
it one shot. I couldn't disagree more.
If Sanders can do it, so can Batman Begins.

(01:06:18):
I disagree. Look, that's not the look at you
defending Batman Begins and you hate the Christian the the Nolan
Batman trilogy. I don't hate it, I just think
it's lesser than The Batman. Because you hate it.
Sure, let's let's run with that.But OK, so it seems that like,

(01:06:43):
OK, so that Michael Bay just theway that he directs his films,
that why, why do you think that people don't like see his vision
per SE? I guess that that's the question
I'm trying to arrive at is that why do you why do you think that
people don't see like the way that you're seeing it, like his
vision and his technique? Why do you think that people
don't recognize that? Or is it just that like, you're

(01:07:05):
a film snob, so ergo you pay attention to these more nuanced
details, the composition, the sound design, versus like an
average pleb like our boy casterhere?
I converted him. What are you talking about so.
He converted first. Yes, he did, actually.
I mean, I could talk about that conversation if you'd like.

(01:07:27):
I remember. I do remember.
This is vividly because I think it was in 2020.
I don't remember what year, but when Dylan sent me all those
text messages. Yeah, I sent him so many.
It spanned more than one year. Yeah, but it wasn't.
I think it was in person when hetold me, he was like telling me
Michael Bay is better than most people give him credit for.

(01:07:50):
And I'm just like, OK, and then he OK, Yeah, I was, I didn't
disagree or I agreed. I was just like, I was, yeah,
yeah, pretty much. And then he gave, he told me
about an interview that Michael Bay said.
And when he told I'm going to let Dylan get into that more.
So I'm not going to go into specifics, but when Dylan told

(01:08:13):
me that, I remember I was, I wasgoing to disagree with him.
And then I had like this one moment of clarity where I just
like stared into space and everysingle scene of Michael Bay went
through my head and my jaw kind of dropped And I was like, oh,
wow, he's right. And I think that I think just by

(01:08:34):
him telling me that what MichaelBay said in that interview
completely changed my mind. And that's why when I cuz when I
watched Transformers, I just watched it to be entertained.
I did not watch for the shots oranything.
But when I watched Ambulance, I specifically looked at the
scenes, his technique, his shotsand everything and I was

(01:08:55):
impressed. So that's why I believe that
after even if you didn't have this no opinion on on Michael
Bay, after this episode, you'll watch the next Michael Bay movie
you watch. You won't be able to Unsee it.
OK, so yes, real quick because Ifeel like Jesse has a response,

(01:09:17):
but I want to say a lot of people assume that Michael Bay
is a Republican because so much of his visual style includes
images of traditional Americana and his movies contain a lot of
patriotism. But also because he tends to

(01:09:39):
really prop up the idea of the blue collar worker, the
everyman, while portraying government bureaucrats as a
bunch of incompetent morons. Right.
But here's the thing. What's what is?
What is the thing? Michael Bay did an interview
where he said. What do you say?
Look. I grew up in a Democratic

(01:10:00):
household, all right, But growing up, my grandpa told me,
listen, Michael, Huh. Wasn't.
His. Dad, No, it's his grandpa, he
said. Listen, Michael, if you want to
make money in this world, you have to learn to sell to middle
America. Now I want you to think about
all of the things that Michael Bay includes in his movies and

(01:10:24):
then take into consideration that he is one of the most
highest grossing directors of all time.
Think about what his grandfathersaid, how to make money in this
world, what Michael Bay includes, and then the simple
fact that Michael Bay is one of the most successful directors
financially in the history of Hollywood.

(01:10:48):
Well, you put it like that. Like, damn, what can you say to
that? Like his his numbers and like
his, commercial success speaks for itself.
But why? Because people like because he
you said it like he he portrays like the blue collars, like he
makes movies for like the blue collar everyday kind of man.
And if that includes a lot of like, you know, rural America

(01:11:10):
with blue collar workers and like patriotism and all that,
then like it includes them too. You just.
Answered your question. Shit most people don't.
See his vision? Shit.
Michael Bay is is a self admitted Democrat and he
frequently donates to Democraticcauses, the biggest of which
being animal rights charities. Michael Bay loves dogs.

(01:11:32):
Yeah, I the more. Than I do because I haven't
donated to any charity for dogs.Exactly.
But he, he told me that and I was going to refute it, but like
I said, I, I, as soon as he saidit, I just stopped and thought
about it for a second. And every single scene, every
single Transformer movies, how it always has the military

(01:11:55):
American flags, it's always shotin another country to, you know,
sell internationally. And I thought about it and I was
like, what the fuck? I'm like, Oh my God, you're
right. Why don't other directors do
this? But then later in his career, I
think Michael Bay is starting tomake it more clear what he

(01:12:15):
actually believes in as an individual.
And to me, the turning point was13 hours, which was about the
secret soldiers of Benghazi. Obviously, that was a really
controversial situation involving the United States and
some private military contractors.
That was a very controversial situation involving the United

(01:12:39):
States, the Secretary of State at the time, Hillary Clinton.
And people were scared that Michael Bay was making a movie
about the situation because theyfelt like this was going to be
his opportunity to lean into thefull conservatism that they
associate with Michael Bay. But then when the movie came

(01:13:00):
out. What happened?
It was democratic as fuck. I don't know it.
Was decidedly apolitical. Michael Bay took an approach
that let the viewer decide whether what happened was right
or wrong, he said. It's up to you.
Damn, he played it so straight that I would argue 13 hours is

(01:13:21):
basically just Black Hawk Down but more technically competent.
Right. There's only one moment in 13
Hours where Michael Bay indulgeshimself, where he kind of does a
very similar thing with Pearl Harbor, where he does the
spinning camera counterclockwisewhile the mortar shell falls
clockwise. Otherwise, yes, I would argue

(01:13:44):
that if you want to see Michael Bay at his most restrained,
watch 13 Hours. That will tell you that he is
capable of nuance of story and character.
Because you do care about. I would argue the most
sympathetic characters in any Michael Bay movie are in 13
hours. So would you say that it's his

(01:14:06):
politics or like it's his association with politics that's
the reason why like people put him in like this box that was
like, he's just this guy that makes explosion movies or
interesting. And.
Politics ruins everything once again.
Yes, exactly. The reason I say that's the
turning point. I'm about to blow your mind.

(01:14:26):
Don't. Know.
In Transformers the Last Night, as much as people dislike that
movie, that is the first Transformers movie where the
military is portrayed as the villain.
I'll actually think about that. Yeah.
And then an ambulance. Michael Bay brings it full
circle by giving an homage to 1st responders.

(01:14:50):
That movie is celebrating EMTs as the hero.
Right. And the police, which are
traditionally associated with more conservative values, are
seen as the antagonistic force. Right, like you've made me
appreciate that movie specifically a lot more
ambulance, one for like the way it was shot and two, like just

(01:15:11):
the just the fact that like mostof the the the action, like the
setting takes place in the fucking ambulance.
So how do you make that dynamic and interesting?
You know, like there's only so many like shots you can do of
like, you know, people sitting around in the car or like trying
to get away. You like there's only so many
highway shots you can do, you know, like and Michael Bay was

(01:15:32):
able to still like make it engaging and interesting and add
like a fresh take like as you put me on like the drone shots
that he did. No one else was doing that
before. He was doing it like, oh.
Here it comes, ladies and gentlemen.
What you all been waiting for? Drones are they're so boring.
I'm sorry. Nobody in Hollywood has figured

(01:15:55):
out how to make drone cinematography interesting.
The first use of drones was in Skyfall in 2012, and it was
adopted again in another movie until drones were fully approved
by the FAA in 2014. Ever since then, more and more

(01:16:16):
movies have tried to use drones,but they pretty much more or
less are just less interesting versions of helicopter shots.
Nobody has quite figured out howto make them work until Michael
Bay got his hands on drones. Oh my God when I saw Ambulance

(01:16:41):
for the first time. To me, this is just proof
positive that Michael Bay is a net positive for the filmmaking
industry because Michael Bay hasrevolutionized cinematography
more than anyone in the past 20 years with the way he used
drones. The minute Michael Bay got his

(01:17:04):
hands on drones, he realized theadvantages they have which are
they are fast, they are smooth, and they can go places that no
other camera is capable of. So the minute Michael Bay
started to shoot ambulance, he realized why don't we use drones
to get in on the action? But it's more than that.

(01:17:26):
It is about some of these establishing shots with the
drones. They are some of the most
breathtaking shots I have ever seen.
The way these drones just fly upthe LA skyline, they reach the
top, they do this little misty flip and dive bombs straight
down. Moreover, there is an incredible

(01:17:49):
shot where one of the drones flies along the side of the
skyscraper that's all glass and it creates the most amazing
parallax. I mean, watching this in IMAX,
it feels like you're on a ride. People, when that shot happened,
they lean back in their seat because it's just such an

(01:18:10):
immersive experience. It's it's truly breathtaking to
behold the way Michael Bay was able to direct basically kids,
these FPV drone racers into capturing these shots.
And and then again, that just speaks to a skill that he is
able to work with guys that are like 16-17 and get these shots.

(01:18:36):
For example, later in the chase when they drive through that
abandoned yard where the police car jumps, there's a shot where
the drone has to fly under the police car and basically through
an explosion and then over the hood of the ambulance.
That was done in one take. And these kids asked Michael

(01:18:59):
Bay, can we get a few practice shots?
Because this sounds like a really complicated shot.
And Michael Bay told them, no, I'm only jumping the car once.
You're going to get it right. Damn.
And what a lot of people don't realize is that even though
Michael Bay wasn't flying the drones himself for all those
shots, is a good director still has to get that out of his

(01:19:21):
cinematographers. He still has to give them the
direction of what to do what he wants.
And he was able to do this with kids in one take.
Like that, that like that's impressive.
And like that again, like that when you told me that, that like
put me on like, damn, you know what, I got to rewatch ambulance
because like that, I don't thinkI get as immersed in movies as

(01:19:44):
you do. But when I, when I, when I
rewatched it, I was like, you know what?
I see what you're talking about.Like when you do, when the the
drones were doing like these quick shots and you know, like
how you were saying the skyscraper scene and like the
way it was angling this and likemoving really fast.
I was like, you know what, damn Michael Bay, like he, he really
went off on this one and that hestill kept it interesting

(01:20:06):
because like my whole thing is like, yo, like most of the story
takes place on an ambulance on ajoyride.
And like that's most of the movie.
And he was able to keep it like engaging and fresh and like
that. I mean that that's because like
the movie, something tailored towhat he's like already shooting
that action type of flick. But it's interesting like how he
continues to evolve within his like artistic style cuz drones

(01:20:29):
are still like, even if they've been out for a decade or more
now, like it's still like a new,it's still like a recent
phenomenon in like film making. Yeah, and nobody has quite
figured out how to use them. Yeah, exactly that.
That's your biggest gripe? You need no other example than
the God awful movie known as TheGrey Man which is directed by
these supposed geniuses Joe and Anthony Russo who directed The

(01:20:53):
Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War and End Game.
Very, very MCU machine movies. But people think all of a sudden
these guys are real directors. People think those movies are
better than the Bad Boys trilogy.
They're insane. Which the point is, people gave
the Russo's way too much credit solely based off the fact that

(01:21:16):
they directed Infinity War and Civil War right.
Because of winter. Soldier, Winter Soldier too,
you're right, but the point is people gave them way too much
credit and started to treat themlike actual artists.
But if you watch The Grey Man, not only is it one of the most
boring movies I've ever seen, but they try to use drones in
that movie and it is absolutely laughable to watch the way they

(01:21:40):
use drones compared to Michael Bay.
Did anyone actually watch the Gray Man say yes or no?
Even though you're just listening to this and it's like
we won't know what you're saying?
Say it out loud, yes or no. Yeah, that's what the that's
what the Ken from Barbie, right?Yes.
And Chris Evans, I believe. Was he in it?

(01:22:02):
Yeah, that's. How forgettable that movie is.
Yes, no, The Gray Man, I remember I enjoyed it, but it is
like it is one of those movies where like it's kind of
forgettable, but. Like it's Gray.
But I still, hey, but it's stilla Gray man.
Still better than Crave, man. That was a terrible fight, man.
All right, you can take the mic,you know.

(01:22:26):
The point is. Yeah, what was the point again?
You need to look no further thanThe Gray Man to see what studio
directors basically guns for hire do with drones compared to
a genuine auteur like Michael Bay how he utilizes drones.
The difference is night and day and I honestly think people are

(01:22:48):
starting to come around on Michael Bay.
Right. Purely based off of ambulance.
I can see that. And it does take like a couple
movies or several movies for people to, you know, shake off
the stigma they might have, especially Michael Bay, like
he's known as like, you know, like the explosions guy.
But I think, yeah, no, I, I, as you said, like ambulance came

(01:23:10):
out like what, 20/20/2022. So like it's already been like a
few years. Like that's if you keep on
making more movies that are like, but still, you know, still
scream Michael Bay, but are less, you know, a transformer
esque. I, I would say then I think like
that, that people will see him as like, as something more than
just like, you know, like that explosion director guy, like if

(01:23:35):
he had directed the island rightnow instead of back then, people
be like, oh, wow, you know what?Michael Bayes, He, he, he's,
he's got something else, you know?
You should definitely watch it then in that case, you know
after this episode, just put that that that movie up and
watch for yourself. So I feel like we're going to

(01:23:55):
bring it back to Transformers for the end.
But one last thing I want to saythat makes Michael Bay such a a
prominent figure in Hollywood, in my opinion, is that Michael
Bay has single handedly launchedthe careers of several actors.
Like who? The biggest example is Will

(01:24:18):
Smith and the reason I. The guy from Fresh Prince?
What the? Guy from Fresh Prince.
But Dylan, was he not already a star?
No, he wasn't. He was known as the sitcom guy.
He was known as the guy from Fresh Prince.
He was kind of associated with that typecast.
Yeah, he was famous. But when you look at the both

(01:24:39):
the characters, it's night and day.
They are completely different. And a lot of actors, what they
struggle with is getting typecast.
Once you make one movie, that's the only character that you can
play. And this was Will Smith playing
a different character, and Michael Bay did it.
Yes, and. So he was YouTube famous before
YouTube but Michael Bay made himinto a movie star is what you're

(01:25:01):
saying? More or less, yes, because what
I think is so interesting about Michael Bay is that he knew who
he was right out of the gate. Most directors take years to
develop their visual style and aesthetic.
Not Michael Bay. He knew who he was the minute he

(01:25:24):
made Bad Boys. And the that's the reason I love
this, that movie. I don't think it's a top five
Michael Bay movie, but I love itbecause it is so distinctly
Michael Bay. Every single shot looks
expensive. It's designed for maximum
impact. But weren't his ads like that

(01:25:45):
too? Yes, they were.
So he knew even before bad boys.He's always known.
That's what's so remarkable about him.
Christopher Nolan didn't develophis style until The Dark Knight
and Mike. Tell, don't tell.
Exactly who he was. But the point is.
From the from the commercials, you know, since the Red Bull

(01:26:06):
commercials. In the third act of Bad Boys,
there's a sequence where Will Smith is chasing an SUV on foot
and he is running in slow motionand he has a button down shirt,
but it's open. There is an interview.
I'm setting a lot of interviews here, but from the people that

(01:26:28):
worked on the first Bad Boys, Will Smith talks about his
experience working with Michael Bay, he said.
I remember doing that scene and the first take we did, I did it
with the shirt buttoned up. We went and looked at the
monitors to watch the playback. He said Michael told me to
unbutton my shirt and he said Will Smith told Michael Bay,

(01:26:50):
come on, man, don't you think that's a little corny?
And Michael Bay said, no, trust me, this is going to look
better. They did the second take with
Will Smith's shirt unbuttoned again, went back to the
monitors. Will Smith watch the playback
and he's like, holy shit. He's like, I look like a fucking

(01:27:14):
movie star. And then, sure enough, that was
the minute that Will Smith became a big name.
I am legend. But more than that, I like that.
But more than that, after that whole sequence comes to an end,
that is the first time we get the spinning shot with Michael

(01:27:36):
Bay, with our protagonist standing up into the frame.
And that is the exact moment youcan see Michael Bay as we know
him being born. And I just think that's that's
really special. No other director can say right
out the gate they knew exactly their style, their aesthetic,

(01:27:58):
their editing choices. Right.
Nobody is nobody has that kind of that that level of of
self-awareness and and introspection, Yes, and exactly
confidence. Michael Bay is unafraid to be
who he is. Here's a A funny anecdote is
that Michael Bay's student thesis film, the one that Joss

(01:28:21):
Whedon said was way better than his.
It was a movie called My BrotherBenjamin, and it was about a
frat boy who gets a yellow Porsche for his birthday and
drives it really fast. And the opening scene of Bad Boy
is a Porsche driving really fastdown the highway.
Exactly what you just said. He has so much confidence in

(01:28:43):
himself, in his style, in his ability.
And when he screened that seniorstudent thesis film, there was
about 250 people in the theater.And he said the most memorable
thing about that experience was just watching their reactions,
specifically their laughter. And he said the biggest take
away from me, the most importantthing about filmmaking is not

(01:29:06):
the awards, it's not any of that.
It is giving people that experience.
It was seeing people laugh that made him decide what's most
important to him is entertainment and just giving
the audience A memorable theatrical experience.
Right. So he knows exactly what he's

(01:29:26):
doing, he just does not care to make a movie like Goodwill
Hunting. Yeah.
So basically, he knows who he is, he has a style, and he's
just like he. He shoots the way he wants to
shoot and directs the way he wants to direct.
Who's the other person that he converted to into a movie star
besides Will Smith? So Michael Bay was the very

(01:29:49):
first person to cast Nicolas Cage in an action.
Movie What? Ghost.
Writer No The Rock And I would argue, despite how early in his
career it is, The Rock is Michael Bay's best movie.
It is everything about him as a filmmaker that works, just

(01:30:10):
orchestrated perfectly. Everything comes together in The
Rock in a way that that I just find so remarkable.
And, and I think it it, it's partly what Cass said, that
Michael Bay has such confidence and self-awareness that he was

(01:30:31):
able to make that kind of movie this early on in his career.
But this is what I want to say about The Rock.
Everybody criticizes Michael Bay, everybody talks shit about
him. Michael Bay has two movies in
the Criterion Collection. The premium Film Snob Society of

(01:30:58):
physical copies of Movies. Michael Bay has two movies in
the Criterion Collection. Which are.
The Rock and Armageddon. What?
Yes, interesting. So never let anybody tell you
Michael Bay lacks prestige or skill or nuance.

(01:31:19):
Because of the Criterion Collection is willing to
recognize the rock as aesthetically, historically and
culturally significant. I don't need to say anything
else. What is the criterion
collection? Is that like just an archive or?
It's an archive. It's an archive of movies that
are deemed again, either these are the three criteria

(01:31:42):
historically, culturally or aesthetically significant.
And it is. It is a Society of cinephiles,
some would say film snobs, but your people, Yeah, Yeah, my
people. His invitation has still haven't
been sent. Still waiting on that.
You know where to find me. But the point is, they make what

(01:32:03):
are called Criterion Collection Blu rays, right?
And they only make these copies.It's kind of like the way vinyl
is seen as unique. Now Criterion Collection copies
are reserved only for movies that these members deem the
highest of cinema. Can you give us some examples

(01:32:26):
just for people that are not familiar with it?
I'm not saying that I'm not familiar with it because
obviously I am. I know everything that he's
talking about. But for those in the audience
that are unaware, if you could like go into maybe say some
movies that they would know and not are like, you know in not
non mainstream. Yeah, so movies that are
generally included in the Criterion Collection are movies

(01:32:48):
like Leon the Professional. Here's one that I know Jesse
really loves. 12 Angry Men, the original 1957 version.
Beautiful films he is. Considered is included in the
Criterion Collection, but if youwant to some more mainstream
movies, Jaws and Jurassic Park are in there.
The the original Lord of the Rings trilogy is considered

(01:33:10):
Criterion Collection, but the point is it taking into account
movies like Leon the Professional.
Those are really the kind of movies that they they like to
include. But obviously they will make
exceptions for blockbusters and they have included Michael Bay
twice. And I will go out on a limb and
say Ambulance will be added pretty soon.

(01:33:33):
Damn, super hot take. Yeah, thank you for giving other
examples, you know, for those that don't.
Yeah, especially the mainstream ones, you know.
Yeah, we want to. I realized as soon.
As I said, Leon the professional, I was like, OK,
most people probably aren't. What people have seen Leon the
Professional the 1990 classic. Have you?
No, that's like, no, no, I mean,obviously I haven't read that.

(01:33:56):
I've heard of this movie before.I'd say it's probably one of my
top. I hate, I hate putting myself.
Oh my God. Look, just because it's the
French name, look at that. The Francophile is gonna put
Leon in his top five. In my top 20.
It's hard to pick like a top 10 or top 20 just because it's

(01:34:18):
possible. Like you, you, you come up with
a list and then you're like, OK,I have it.
And then you think to yourself, wait, I missed one.
Here's no, no, no. Here's an example of a Criterion
Collection film that I know a lot of people will know, but
it's also just artsy enough thatbecause a lot of people like it,
they think, oh, I'm a real connoisseur of the film Eternal

(01:34:42):
Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Can you say, can you say that
again? Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless
Mind. OK, a lot of people love that
movie, but it's also just artsy enough to where they think that
because they like it. They are like the esteemed
cinephile. Yes, I know that movie too,

(01:35:03):
obviously. Yeah.
I've never heard that movie in my life.
One of the best love stories of all time.
You said you like romance movies.
You need to watch it. OK, Yeah, I'm being serious.
All right? Yeah.
What was it again? Eternal Sunshine of the spotless
Mind. Yeah, Nope.
I haven't heard it so I'll I'll make sure to write that down.

(01:35:26):
You don't see that many movie titles of like long and.
Long names don't. You don't.
You know that that's that's interesting.
Just by the name alone, they were willing to take that risk.
Yeah, it is 2000. And.
Four. It is a really great movie, but
Michael Bay has two films in theCriterion Collection.

(01:35:47):
That's impressive. I have none so.
And now it's time to bring it back to my beloved Transformers.
I'm going to say this. I've already sort of explained
why I think the first Transformers is one of the best
directed blockbusters ever, but Revenge of the Fallen is good.

(01:36:14):
I'm sorry, you're all wrong. Better than The Winter Soldier?
Yes, any issues that people take, any issues that people
have with Revenge the Fallen, you need to remember the movie
was in production during the O seven O 8 WGA strike.
So Michael Bay, the only thing he had to work with was a 33

(01:36:35):
page outline of some general stuff that they wanted to hit
and events that would happen. He shot the movie based off of
that, and the fact that Revenge of the Fallen is even remotely
comprehensible again speaks to storytelling prowess.
But also, I would argue Revenge of the Fallen is just leaner and

(01:36:57):
it's more emotional than the first Transformers film.
The first Transformers movie hasa lot of intersecting plot
lines, which I really like. I think they converge together
really well. But Revenge of the Fallen is a
lot simpler and the stakes are higher.
It's just we need to get the Matrix of leadership to revive
optimists and stop the fallen from starting up the machine

(01:37:21):
that is going to basically destroy the sun, which.
And this was the second movie, right?
Yeah, I think Revenge of the Fallen, it's also just a it's a
gorgeous movie. So is the first Transformers
movie. They are just beautiful movies.
Like when I was watching re watching the Transformers films

(01:37:42):
for this episode, I just found myself longing for that time
when movies were actually shot on film and when they just had
personality. Like the the part of the reason
I love the Transformers movie somuch is because they are
basically a relic of a bygone era when directors were actually

(01:38:02):
able to interject their voice into these movies.
But the reason I wanted to bringit back to Transformers is
because these movies have a longlasting legacy that people just
don't give them credit for. And here's what I'm going to
say. Transformers is directly

(01:38:24):
responsible for the MCU because the Battle of Chicago in Dark of
the Moon inspired the Battle of New York in Avengers in the
first Avengers. I dare you, I defy you.
Are you sure? That wasn't Pearl Harper.
I defy you to watch the Battle of Chicago and the Battle of New

(01:38:45):
York back-to-back and tell me that the Battle of New York is
not just a direct RIP off of Dark of the Moon with less
texture and depth. Maybe that was just Josh Sweden
copying Michael Bay's thesis statement, you know?
The point is, by the way, it's influenced.
I I hear you though, can't. Deny.
Like seriously look, even down to the fact that the Leviathan

(01:39:10):
in The Avengers aesthetically looks very similar to the
Cybertronian snake that was weaving in and out of the
skyscrapers in Dark of the Moon.That movie is directly
responsible for the success of The Avengers and nobody gives it
credit because they are just toobusy lost in this idea that

(01:39:33):
Michael Bay is just some fool that has no idea of what he's
doing. Dark of the Moon made The
Avengers. That's a hot take.
Wow. What do you guys say to that
cast? I know you love The Avengers.
Do you agree, disagree, or strongly disagree of what Dylan
is saying here? Let us know in the comments.

(01:39:56):
No bitch, let me know what you. Think.
I don't know, honestly, it's like I'm trying to remember
these machines. And yeah, I do remember I need
to Transformers. Made the MCU.
I don't even remember what yearsthey came out in.
O 709-2000 Eleven 2014 2017 But for the sake of this discussion,

(01:40:18):
I'm talking about the original trilogy.
You know what they do say imitation is the highest form of
flattery I do. Transformers is better than the
MCU. I mean it's only like what, 7
movies? 2 of them?

(01:40:38):
Five of them are bad. Five of them are Michael Bay
movies. And then you have.
Two, that he. Produced, which is great.
Verizon. Beast, which has no sauce
whatsoever. Haven't seen it.
And Transformers 1, which isn't directly related to those, but
he was still technically a. That was the the the that was a

(01:40:59):
great movie. Which one?
Transformers 1 the animated movie you.
Mean the origin story for. Optimism.
Yeah, yeah, Megatron, Yeah, yeah.
No, then. Then like Crimson Hemsworth, you
know. It had no sauce.
Damn. It was a good movie, but I'd
much rather watch the Michael Bay ones.

(01:41:20):
Like, I don't know, because like, because your argument is
that Transformers like it, it deserves like more recognition.
That's like the like the legacy that I passed and like the, and
like the franchise cultural impact that I had during its
run. I mean, I think the last
Transformer week came out like 2years ago.
So it's still I guess quote UN quote relevant.
But it it's not. It's not.

(01:41:40):
But the MCU is like but like theMCU is like that's also like
that's also has like the same argument where like it's also
culturally relevant and right now it's been a low, but it's
had its high points, like people, I think it's had.
Its high points yeah of. Course, and I think like, you
know, like if the argument is that I 1 can be, I guess you
could say, yeah, Transformers could be better than the MCU.

(01:42:02):
But I think both are still like,you know, cultural phenomenons
or like just they, they both have cultural relevance.
I don't disagree. What I'm saying is that the
first three Transformers Milk films are better films than
anything in the MCU. Better than Thunderbolt
asterisks. Yes.
Damn. Absolutely.
And you love that movie. I did better than Black Panther,

(01:42:23):
arguably your favorite movie from the MCU.
Jesse. Let's calm down you a kiss I
don't like you chuckled there. I feel like I need to bring back
the same counter just even though this is definitely not a
peachy episode, but I feel like it'd be fun just to keep track
of how many times Jesse triggersdoing.

(01:42:48):
Look. It's OK.
I'm like, I'm like Michael Bay. I'm just, I'm just trying to
make him explode. You know the 1st.
Three Transformers movies have more heart, skill, spectacle,
craft, and thought put into themthan any single MCU film.

(01:43:09):
Can you see a single movie that has anything as thought
provoking? I'm gonna cheat.
I'm gonna cheat the I'm gonna cheat.
I'm gonna go James Gunn, Guys ofthe Galaxy trilogy, and then I'm
going to cheat because you're going to say that's his swan
song before he fucks off. No, no.

(01:43:29):
No. That's fine.
I'm I'm going to, you know, I'm going to get the hat codes.
I'm going to use the cheat. Codes I'm OK, I'm.
OK with that I have the James Gunn trilogy.
Give me Michael Bay over Guardians.
Damn, you know what? Fair enough.
I think Transformers. Transformers is a more like
iconic group of like just storytelling and the heroes then
the Guardians of the Galaxy. So fair enough, I'll give you

(01:43:49):
that one. Not just that, but like this.
This all goes back to people's misconception of Michael Bay.
But the Transformers movies are some of the most profound
commentary on post 911 society in America.
And how that goes over people's heads is beyond me because it's

(01:44:12):
all there. It's the fear of the other.
It's technology anxiety, it's government overreach, it's the
surveillance state. The Transformers movies have a
lot on their mind. And lastly, Sam Witwicki, I
would argue, is probably the greatest millennial protagonist

(01:44:33):
we've ever seen. More than America Chavez?
Who the Hell's that? The one from Doctor Strange.
And what's the rest of the nice?Oh yeah, I'm going to say so.
Sam Witwicki to me is everythingthat the millennial generation
has had to go through. This poor guy has done nothing

(01:44:59):
but do everything right his entire life, only for the world.
That in high school, too. That he saved twice to tell him
he doesn't matter. Oh yeah, the.
Entire struggle is that he has grown up being told that if you
go to college, you work hard, you get your degree, you're

(01:45:21):
going to get a good job, you're going to be successful in life
everything else will come Sam isa good kid he.
They treat Sam as parents he dates.
The woman of his dreams. He saves the world twice.
He's a good friend. He stands up for Bumblebee in
the first Transformers movie. Sam does everything right.

(01:45:45):
He goes to college, he gets thatdegree, and how does the world
repay him? They tell him he's nothing, he
doesn't matter in Dark of the Moon.
And tell me that is not the struggle of millions of
millennials right now, right? Feeling adrift and purposeless,
trying desperately to find meaning in a world that has

(01:46:07):
shunned them after telling them no.
If you just play ball and be a good person, things are going to
work out for you, but that hasn't been the case.
There is Sam Wiki is he's a morerelevant character than almost
anybody in in a major blockbuster franchise.
I mean people I I don't understand like you're just not

(01:46:32):
paying attention. Like Transformers.
It is some of the most thought provoking, thematically rich
film making I've. Seen.
So what you're really trying to say, boil it down to is that
Michael Bay is so much more thanjust explosions.
Yes, he's so much more than explosions and Shia LaBeouf.

(01:46:57):
I'm not here to comment on the guy's personal life.
Well, in that movie, he, he's he.
He's a pretty good actor in those movies.
Shia LaBeouf is a great actor ingeneral, but I would argue yes,
his performances as Sam, people make fun of him.
So much for the screaming. And then no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no. But it works because again,

(01:47:18):
this, this is all from his perspective.
Sam isn't someone who is just trying to save the world, it's
this guy is just trying to survive and he makes the
conscious decision in Dark of the moon to re enter the fight
not because he thinks he's goingto get something out of it.
At this point in the series he knows they don't care about him.

(01:47:42):
The world doesn't care what he does for them.
Sam makes the choice to re enterthe fight because it's going to
give him purpose. Like this is the only thing that
has made him feel like he matters, like he is having an
effect on the world is by fighting alongside the Autobots

(01:48:04):
in Bumblebee. And I don't know, something
about these movies just works for me.
And also Shia LaBeouf and Megan Fox have some of the best on
screen chemistry I've ever seen.They do.
I I mean, I would put them up there with Andrew Garfield.
More than the third girl or they.
Oh yeah, whoever that girl was in the third film, The new love

(01:48:26):
interest that he he suddenly loves more than Megan Fox.
Like Nah, I wasn't buying it. Yeah, they have amazing
chemistry. And Sam and Michaela, look, you
can come at me for this if you want, but having rewatched these
movies just this week, Sam and Mckayla are still the reason

(01:48:46):
that I, that I'm, that I'm that I'm kind of like, I, I'm, I'm an
emo guy. Like I believe I believe in love
because of Sam and Mckayla. Damn, all right.
Like that I, I don't know, I just like them as, as an on
screen relationship. I mean, and, and I'm gonna, I'm

(01:49:10):
gonna drop the hammer here. Oh no.
Megan Fox. Oh no.
What about Megan? Fox earlier that she Do you
think she likes being objectified?
Megan Fox is the most nuanced character in the Transformers
franchise because if you look athow she is written on the page,
her name is Michaela Baines. Michaela Baines, Michael Bay.

(01:49:35):
And Michaelae character is someone who was written off as a
shallow and superficial individual whose only sort of
redeeming quality is her aesthetics, her looks.
But if you actually look underneath the hood.
Bro, are you going to say that Megan Fox is a metaphor for
Michael Bay? Yes, Megan Fox is the standard

(01:49:58):
for Michael Bay himself. Bro, there is so much more to
him than explosions. Some might even say so much more
to him than meets the eye. Fuck Michaela Baines is the
stand in for Michael Bay becauseshe is.
She is the most competent character in the 1st 2 movies.

(01:50:21):
Think about it, she's the one that knows.
About cars. Cars, she's the one that takes
action in terms of getting Bumblebee out of there in the
the climax of the first Transformers movie.
And then she decides to re enterthe fight by telling Bumblebee,
you know I'll drive as long as you shoot him.
Right. She has so much more agency and

(01:50:41):
then people attribute to her, but oh heaven forbid she's bent
over a motorcycle and looks good.
Oh. No, like, oh, Michaela, it's so
sexist. Grow the fuck up.
No, it's not. She is a very competent
character who has a lot of agency in these movies.

(01:51:03):
And again, she, yeah, she's a stand in for Michael Bay.
And she's hot. Yeah, she does.
She's a she's fucking beautiful.So is Michael.
Bay Well, Dylan, I think you've converted me.
Like, damn, you really made me see Michael Bay as more than
just a director. He's really in a tour.

(01:51:23):
God, I love using that word. A tour.
Can I ask you a question? Yeah.
Are you being honest? Yeah.
I'm kind of fucking around with you, but I'm like, you know what
I see? Like there are some.
I'm kind of fucking around. I clapped too early.
I know I'm saying like my tone of voice and my voice may come
off as like I'm just fucking around with you, but just.
How he speaks. Yeah, that's.

(01:51:44):
Just how he speaks, guys. If it sounds like I'm
gaslighting you, that's just howI normally talk, guys.
I'm not. I'm not gaslighting you.
Come on, Voted. As most.
Sarcastic our senior year. Oh yeah, I was voted most
artistic in the booth. She's very but no, OK, no, like

(01:52:04):
you're all jokes aside, you are like you did put me on more into
Michael Bay in terms of like hiscreative style and influence.
Not not not influence per SE, but like his creative choices
and why he chooses to do why he does like the why he chooses to
do what he does in his filming. And I there like I think if I
were to rewatch bad boys like 1 and 2 again with that

(01:52:26):
perspective, Michael Bay, I won't be looking for like yo
spinning shine 320. There's a spinning shot,
vertical protagonist, zoom out, extended shot, boom.
Michael Bay explosion. See, This is why people think
you gaslight. This is why people think you

(01:52:48):
gaslight. Because you you complimented him
on him changing your mind, but you reverted back to explosions.
Well, I'm just saying like that's kind of his as as Michael
Bay's like little trademark, nottrademark, but like that's part
of his repertoire of skills and and styles.
Yes, I, I mentioned me. You didn't even mention about,
like I mentioned, the spinning camera first, the spin, the

(01:53:09):
spinning camera pan vertical. Explosion.
The the shorthand version of it is the 360 hero shot.
Boom. Which like Dylan is claiming
that shot is better than like the superhero landing in any
movie. Oh yeah.
Allegedly. No, that's it's not even a
question. That's not even a question.

(01:53:31):
No, I'll give you that. Yeah.
Yeah. Like that.
That does seem pretty more dynamic than just like watching
someone land. Yeah, well, I hope that I
actually did change your mind. That's all I have to say.
Yes, but really, like I was already like my mind was willing
to be changed. I had an open mind.

(01:53:51):
I was ready to listen to the argument and like hear what you
were going to say, I think. But I think there are still
others who may not be convinced.Tell them what?
What would you say to those likenot naysayers who are still not
convinced by like your your arguments for why Michael Bay is
like you know is more than just meets the eye.

(01:54:12):
What I would say is take everything that we discussed
into consideration and I would say sit down and watch Bad Boys
12, Pearl Harbor, The Rock, Transformers 123, Pain and Gain

(01:54:33):
13 hours and ambulance. But Dylan, what if that's not
enough? What if people still don't get
it? What if they still don't get?
Yeah, what I would say if you still don't get it.
How are you going to explain to the people what Michael Bay
does? If you still don't get it after
all of that, maybe you want to keep an eye on the Patreon.

(01:55:00):
Oh no, the Patreon. What?
What is that? The Patreon.
The Patreon that we have alreadyplugged in episode 10.
Maybe there might be an extra hour of this?
Patreon.com/nightfallfilms. And just since we're floating it
out there, I would also say if that's not enough specifically

(01:55:22):
about the Transformers movies, maybe you want to keep an eye on
the YouTube channel specifically.
Next Tuesday, Plug what where I will deliver what I think is my
best video. To date, so there's more to
come, there's. More Michael Bay.

(01:55:44):
This is how serious I take this stuff.
Right. How much more can you say?
I think if you're not, if obviously you've already
converted me now, but if you're still not converted, hey, just
wait, Wait for that YouTube video.
And if you're still not converted, just wait for that
Patreon episode. Yes.

(01:56:04):
And if you're not converted at the end of that trilogy of
Michael Bayness, you just, maybeyou just don't want to change
your mind, and that's OK. You're allowed to have your
wrong opinion, yes. Exactly.
You're perfectly allowed to be wrong and unfortunately conflate
your opinion with this weird identity you have yourself.
But I mean, hey, we've all done it at some point, so yeah.

(01:56:30):
How very supportive of these two.
So once again, remember. Mental health awareness was last
month. I'm back on my fuck now.
How very nice. I love all people, even if
they're wrong. So once again, after listening
to Dylan's master class on Michael Bay and why you should

(01:56:55):
look at him at a different lightif you didn't already think
about it, Like Frey said, from in my experience, when Dylan
told me that, it did blow my mind five years ago when he told
me. And then I, I, I took it to
heart. I think I didn't feel it as much
as I did until I saw Ambulance. And you know, I, I was watching

(01:57:20):
that movie and I, every time something came up, I would just
Dylan's voice, even though he was sitting right next to me,
would come into my ear. And just like I could remember
everything he said and point it out.
And I was like, Yo, he's right. That that's something that Dylan
pointed out to me. I can see it.
And I just kept seeing it and seeing it and seeing it, and it

(01:57:41):
made that That's the movie that made me appreciate it,
appreciate Michael Bay more. And I wouldn't have been able to
appreciate that movie The way that I did without having Dylan
give me that explanation about Michael Bay.
He changed my perspective on howI view the movie and I'm better
for it. So I feel like for you guys, you
should definitely give it a chance.

(01:58:02):
It's, I can assure you, if nothing else, it'll be fun.
You'll see a, you'll be able to see a movie that you saw before
from a different perspective. And that's what we're trying to
accomplish here. Life is more fun when you enjoy
Michael Bay movies. Michael, it's more fun when
you're willing to see things from different angles.
Appreciate it. You can appreciate something

(01:58:23):
superficially, that's fine. You can appreciate something on
a deeper level. It's just all these different
things that you let look at it, It just makes movies better and
that and that's honestly why I love movies.
Well said. Wow, you seem You seem like you
are a person who was thoroughly convinced and is now on board on

(01:58:45):
the Michael Michael Bay gravy train.
I, I feel like I just said that I was on board when Dylan was
Welcome aboard, fellow. Michael Bayer, I'm glad to have
converted you. Now all of us three are here on
this boat like Steam, Steamboat Willie, Mickey, whatever on this

(01:59:08):
Michael Bay fandom. Which lost its rights.
And check out that new Steamboat, a Willie horror
movie. Let us know what you think.
Me especially. That's crazy.
But I know Michael Bay. People need to like put some
respect on his name. Like now that I am a fellow like
Michael Bay converted, converted, people really need to
put some respect on his name. I think as Dylan was saying, the

(01:59:30):
more the more films he makes, like he's going to start to
branch out from what he's originally known for and he'll
probably start doing like some more serious or like just movies
that people don't expect him to do.
Such as like if, if Zack Snyder had done Watchmen in 2016 and
not 2009, Michael Bay did the island too soon.
That movie should have came out this year instead of back when

(01:59:52):
it came out. But still, Michael Bay, he's a
genius and we got to recognize that.
And we'll definitely be sure to if in case, yeah, in case you
guys don't see an upcoming Michael Bay film, we'll be sure
to let you know when an upcomingMichael Bay film is about to be
released so you can enjoy it with us as well as we watch it.

(02:00:15):
Yes, and if you are interested in having us breakdown one of
these specific Bay films, let usknow.
I mean, obviously the YouTube video is going to go in depth
about Transformers, but if thereyes, like comment, subscribe, if
there's any of these Michael Bayfilms that you really want me to

(02:00:37):
unpack because you're still not quite convinced as Jesse said,
maybe it's pain and gain or 13 hours are my favorite The Rock.
Let me know. Well, guys, I'd like to say once
like we get near it towards likethe end, like it was nice to sit

(02:01:00):
down and, you know, talk film talk directors talk like what
what it means when it when Michael Bay, you know, comes up
on like not on the on the metaphorical mic per SE.
You know, and it, it was interesting to see like how
Michael Bay is just he's more than just, you know, the guy
that does explosions. He's real artist guys, and I

(02:01:21):
think we have put respect on hisname and Dylan put me on and I
think now you listening have been put on just a little bit or
a lie about Michael Bay and whathe really does.
So thanks guys for sitting down and like, you know, talking fun
with me. It was fucking great.
Yes, thank you for listening to everybody.
And hopefully, at the very least, this conversation opened

(02:01:45):
your mind a little bit to at least maybe have you considered
changing your mind about MichaelBay?
That's a start that I'm willing to work with.
So with that being said, thank you for listening, everybody.
That is all that we have for youtoday.
I would like to thank Levi for composing the intro music.

(02:02:09):
Thank you to Jesse for the artwork.
And of course, I got to thank Cass for this one, for listening
to my PhD in Bayhem for the pastfive years.
And now I finally have a platform to express it, and I'm
going to deliver about two more hours of it for you on YouTube

(02:02:30):
and Patreon soon, so. He's been wanting to do this for
years. I really, really have so
subscribe to the YouTube channelyoutube.com like Jesse said
forward slash at Nightfall films.
You can find us on TikTok under the same handle patreon.com.
Jesse already plugged it. And of course, the most

(02:02:52):
impactful thing you can do is follow the show on Spotify.
It would be nice to go from 32 33.
I'd like that. Thanks for listening everybody.
Catch you next time. Peace plants.
Namaste.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Judgement Bay: Understanding Michael Bay

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Judgement Bay: Understanding Michael Bay

Stuff You Should Know