Unpacking Joker: Folie à Deux

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:16):
Be inspired to do things differently.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the show.
This is of course Below the Linepodcast brought to you by the
nobodies of Hollywood. And today we live in a society.
Yo, that was brilliant. Yo what a dupod.
This is Jesse coming back at youagain.

(00:36):
Sitting on my right is caster. So nice to see you.
I'm still it's nice to see you too, man, I missed you.
I'm. Still, I'm still laughing
because he he texted me last night.
He's like, I, I thought that wasa joke because he texted me

(00:57):
between you and me, I have a killer joke for the Joker
episode. And I'm like, oh, I get it.
But I'm just because you know, akiller joke.
Killer joke is, I thought that was the joke that he was going
to make because, you know, killer joke is the movie.
No, I'm going to be making so many puns about us living in a
society. Oh my God, that's funny.

(01:19):
Why so serious? No, I'm.
Laughing. What do you mean?
What was he talking me? So what's?
Going on π today we're going to be talking about Joker and Joker
Folia Do. I'm personally excited for this
because I've, I, I took notes, guys like I, I am ready for
this. I'm going to be coming at this

(01:40):
as someone who loved the original, the 2019 film, and
someone who hates the second onebut saw that there was potential
in it that that that's where that's the side that I'm coming
from. I'm coming at this from a very
loving position of hating both movies equally.
I believe in treating all art equally and I hate Joker and

(02:04):
Joker fully do both with the same amount of vitriol.
Damn. That hurts.
Like not not for me, but I feel like Jesse here is offended.
Not offended, I'm just hurt. My stance is I enjoyed the first
Joker and I didn't watch the second Joker because I believed,

(02:26):
oh, you're ready to sorry. I didn't watch the second Joker
in theaters because I didn't think that the first one needed
a sequel and I had no idea how they were going to go about
making a sequel. And so I wasn't interested in
watching it. So my first time watching it was

(02:47):
today. Really.
Yes. This is the very first time.
So it's a little fresh in my mind, but at the same time it's
not that fresh because I wasn't keeping notes and I didn't write
notes because I thought one watch through with no notes.
Since I know that these two are going to have like pages and
pages and pages of notes. It's like it'll be nice if one

(03:07):
of us goes into this without any.
Fair enough. So, devil's advocate.
I will say Full disclosure, I did not watch Foley and You in
theaters. I waited until it hit Max
because I I was kind of in the same position in the sense that
I didn't think Joker needed a sequel and for different
reasons. It was.

(03:27):
Yeah, exactly. It was a movie that I really
couldn't be bothered to go to the theatre for, which I know
makes me sound bad considering 2episodes ago I was just saying
people don't go to the theatre. For original movies, yeah.
Exactly Joker. Was using an unoriginal
character, but in an original way.
I mean, that's debatable if you.The first movie.

(03:49):
Or like. Okay.
Yeah, definitely debatable. Okay so I just thought, should
we talk about Joker? What that said, yeah, let's.
Lead in and maybe just give our more comprehensive thoughts on
the first Joker. All right, I loved it.
I'm now because I've I've I've rewatched it multiple times.

(04:09):
So I'm I'm fully aware that it basically pays homage to King of
Comedy and Taxi Driver, both movies that were made like in
the 80s, seventies around that time.
So I know that Joker 1 coming into like that's what it base
itself on. So when you said that that it
was there, it was an unoriginal character in an original story.

(04:30):
It's kind of like for the first one.
Personally, I don't think it's that way just because of of all
the attributes, like it's too similar to King of Comedy, it's
too similar to Taxi Driver, whereas Joe Garfolia do.
That one does feel like an original movie.
At least that's how I feel aboutit.
But what I what I meant was an original take on the unoriginal

(04:51):
character. I'll give you that.
Like, I don't think you've seen enough DC to, well, no.
Because I think the like the wayJoker is like typically
presented in media, it's not presented in this sympathy in
the sympathetic light as it was with Joker one and this one.
They they really try to get you to sympathize with Arthur Fleck.
And even then it kind of makes it clear by the end of the movie

(05:12):
that this is not the Joker. This is a Joker.
This is not the Joker that Batman's going to grow up to
fight. This is a Joker that inspired
someone else to be the Prince Clown of Gotham, Which I don't
know, I feel about that. I feel like that's kind of a cop
out by Todd Phillips, but. It's been done before.
What do you mean? That same concept where it's

(05:34):
like he wasn't the original Joker, but he inspired other
Jokers. They tried to do that at Gotham.
Well, with Gotham at first. This is that my issue with that
whole concept is I don't think that the real Joker is someone
who would be inspired by some punk.
No, I don't think. Who put on makeup and went on a
comedy show. Well, you know, Red Hood wasn't

(05:55):
original either, but he thought he did his own twist on to it.
That's true, but I just, I thinkJoker is a little bit different.
I think Joker is a man that stands by his convictions.
He'll be himself. However wrong they may be.
I do like that bottle of Joker as the character, but OK, so
Joker one. Personally, I love this film
when it came out because it cameout around 2019 and around that

(06:18):
time like a little story time. I just like I broke up with my
ex the year before so I was still like on my sad boy shit.
So when I watched this film, I was low key kind of depressed.
So I, I related heavily to Arthur Fleck's character like in
the I think that's why I'm yes, I think that's why I love the

(06:39):
original, like the first film somuch is just because I could see
myself in the broken Arthur Fleck.
Like later he has like a quote where where they ask him like
the psychiatrist or his social worker asks him about his
thoughts, like his negative thoughts.
And he's like very tired and he's like, all I have is

(06:59):
negative thoughts. I felt that and there there's a
lot of quotables that he has like that regarding his mental
health and me at the time when Iwas just not fully myself, I
related to that and I felt that I felt his like the way that he
he views the world is very cynical.

(07:22):
And that was kind of my worldview at the time.
So I related very heavily with Arthur Fleck as a character in
the original 1. I'm not saying that what he does
is justifiable, but I think it we we all know Joker and the one
of the like famous lines he has in any media is like, you know,

(07:44):
having a bad day. And I think in this specific
movie, like when, when he startstransitioning into the Joker
persona, when he kills those 3 when employees on the on the
train tracks, that was after a bad day.
He just got let go from his job.He's after this, he's going to
be unemployed. 3 Wayne employees.

(08:06):
He didn't know there were Wayne employees at the time, but OK,
we'll just say 3 Punks King cameat him at the subway and just
really fucked up this day and just gained up on him.
And rather than just taking it like he did in the opening 5
minutes when he gets jumped instead of just taking it, he
fights back. And that's a breaking point for
his character. Whether or not you agree with

(08:28):
it, that's anybody can make up their own mind regarding that,
but I I can't. I do see why he broke.
Want to add to that Dylan? No, I like I like the movie
song. OK, yeah, I'll just start this
off by saying I was not a fan ofJoker 2019.
The people who have been around since the very beginning.

(08:51):
Shout out to the the Ogs. You know I didn't like Joker
because I left. That's one of the few reviews
I've left up on the channel. I think Joker is the most
derivative and uninspired movie I've seen in a long time.
Make sure I don't. Just film my nightfall films

(09:11):
flag. I don't think of it so much as
an homage to King of Comedy and Taxi Drivers so much as I think
it is a very cheap imitation of those movies.
Joker, to me, does not feel likea cohesive movie.
It feels like a string of scenesand ideas and concepts that are

(09:33):
just loosely thrown together in something that attempts to
resemble a film. The only thing that holds it
together is Joaquin Phoenix's performance, which I will admit
is good and I will say Joker. The artistry is there in terms
of the technical side. The cinematography I think is

(09:53):
very well done. Gotham looks absolutely
disgusting. It's.
Very off putting. I said this before we started
recording, but Joker is a movie that just makes me very
uncomfortable that I don't know how to explain it.
It's just something in the way that the movie looks and behaves
that's very off putting to me. I think the score was good in

(10:17):
the first Joker. The costuming was obviously
good, all of the technical side of the movie great.
But when it comes to the direction and the writing and
specifically the themes, I don'tthink Todd Phillips really has
the skill or the filmmaking acumen to say what he wanted to

(10:42):
say with the first Joker. Because, and no, I'm going to
say this again, I don't think Joker is some kind of incel
manifesto. I just think Joker is a movie
that is clearly trying to say this man Arthur Fleck is someone
who has been failed by the institutions of Gotham City, but

(11:06):
you don't care about him until he becomes Joker.
And Todd Phillips does not have the bravura to do that through
cinematic language by itself, which is why fully you do feel
so ham fisted. So like you like the the

(11:29):
technical aspect of it, but whatI guess, OK, so I think we would
be in agreement in regards to the technical aspect of it,
because I do think like there are some very pretty shots in
Joker one. There are some very like you
could there are certain scenes that you can pause and be like,
Yo, this is a good screensaver like and there there's a lot of
that in faulty to do, but there it's present in Joker.

(11:51):
So I don't think we're going to have any argument in terms of
the in terms of how it was shot and all that.
I guess like the main issue you have is the the story and the
script and the character. And the messaging.
And the message. It's really the messaging, I
think. What about the messaging?
Did you not or because what you just said about how Arthur flag,

(12:13):
how he was basically let let down by the institutions of
Gotham and no one cares until hebecomes a Joker?
Like I think like I saw that in like I thought that was the
message because you see him throughout like the whole movie
just being shot down. And it wasn't until he became
like the Joker, where it's like now people see him now people
give a shit and it's for the it's for the wrong reasons, but

(12:36):
it's it's like I thought it did show that.
So I'm curious, like what do youmean?
Like you didn't see that or maybe did too Ham 50.
I think you saw that because you're a smart guy.
I think most people that watch the Joker have no clue what that
movie was supposed to be about. They think that it.
Is I don't think Todd Phillips knew what this movie is about.

(12:57):
I think. There wasn't enough build up to
it. I think most people that watch
Joker took the wrong lessons away from it when I asked.
I can't use names here, but the point is I had a conversation
about what? Friend A.
Friend B. It's not my friend, it's my
sister's friend. That's.
Fine and SF. Acquaintance.

(13:20):
A acquaintance. A So during a friends giving in
2019 there was a conversation and Joker came up and I asked
acquaintance A why did you like Joker?
And her response was this very vague.
Oh I don't know because addressed important things like

(13:42):
mental health. So I asked her what about mental
health and I wasn't trying to bean asshole but she couldn't
explain it. She couldn't explain what the
movie was actually trying to say.
That says more about your acquaintance than about the
movie. It does, but I think that that
that's to his point, that people, the way people
interpreted the movie is like you have to be.

(14:05):
More blunt force trauma. No, that's a failing of Todd
Phillips. That I was going to say like,
people didn't get it quote, quote.
But at the same time, I don't think Todd Phillips got it
because I think because I think what he wanted to do.
Yeah, No, I think this is one ofthe movies where it it
transcends the creator and people.
I mean, I can say this about anyart.

(14:27):
People can interpret art howeverthey want.
That's the beauty of art. And usually they're like when
directors film movies, they do have a certain intent and
message behind them. I think Todd Phillips, what he
tried to do, people just interpreted it differently
because I whatever message he was trying to tell me, I agree
with you. I, I, I, I didn't get that
message because if, if it if it was supposed to be some incel

(14:48):
manifesto because I think that'swhat it was supposed to be given
how he went in the direction of Folio.
Do not necessarily, I didn't getthat.
It could have been the first onewas in an incel manifesto, but
it was, it resonated the most with them and that's how it
became an incel manifesto and that's why it was so like taken

(15:09):
in. Part 2, You might have a point
there, but I'm I'm going to takethat as one collect.
I'm going to take one and two asone collective thing now because
like the movies have come out already.
So I think it's fair to judge them both, like together now as
one complete story or whatever. And I don't know about that
because I like I do. One thing that was when I was

(15:29):
watching Part 2 that I would make sure to do is just watch it
as itself and not think about Joker One to see if it could
stand by its own. You can't do that though because
it references Joker one a lot. It has.
Yeah, it has little references, but.
Little like it references the movie a lot.
I know but like are those like without them would the movie,

(15:51):
would the movie still go on is what I was watching it and no
no, there were some like or someminor ones where you can get
away with just using them as exposition rather than there
being an actual movie. I don't think you could watch if
you if you're to just tell like a random person who's never seen
either of these films. If you tell them to watch just

(16:12):
Folio do by itself. It wouldn't make sense if you
hadn't see the first one like the second one wouldn't.
Make sense even if you watched the first one?
But even then I still think I'm not sure because be sure.
It's been 6 years since I watched the first one and I
didn't rewatch it so I didn't make as many connections to the
first one as you did. And watching Part 2 by itself,

(16:32):
well, I had that mindset. And can I watch this without
watching Part 1? You know, unfortunately some of
that knowledge from Part 1 was still resurfaced, but I'm not
sure I I feel like you may be able to watch it with without
watching Part 1. I disagree, but I see where he's
coming from. Like I think there's a complete
story to tell with like watchingthe first and second one first

(16:53):
because it because Arthur Fleck's journey doesn't end in
the first one because in the first one the way it ends is
he's at some he's at some institution.
He I don't even think he's an Arkham Asylum yet.
He's just being interviewed by someone and then it carries out
and then his story is completed in the second, like movie.
But I wanted to talk about the first one a little bit more.
Than Arkham Asylum, now that I think about it.

(17:15):
I don't think you they never name dropped it in the second
movie. He is definitely an Arkham
Asylum. But no, he is but.
I meant the second one. OK.
But in the first one, like how it ends like you or he's like in
this white, like he's wearing like this like white, the
straight jacket, the straight jacket and all that.
I don't. Yeah.
I don't think that was Arkham Asylum just yet.

(17:36):
It could have been just a different wing.
Fair enough. You know what?
You could be right there They. Don't need to be exactly the
same one. But there, there was something I
wanted to talk about like in thefirst one, because there are
some things that I did like. I don't know where that was Todd
Phillips or one of his buddies gave me the idea.
But I, I like the idea of like the the unreliable narrator,

(17:58):
Arthur Fleck. Could we see the story through
Arthur Fleck? And he is a liar.
He is a pathological liar. One of the opening lines when
he's talking to a social worker is I think I told you, I'm
pursuing a career in Stan comedy.
And she's like, no, you haven't.I'm pretty sure I did.
So it's like right away from thebeginning, we get glimpses that

(18:19):
he's a liar and we. Saw that as him being really
freaking awkward no how to approach the conversation so he
just said it like that. Just kind of like an opener who
was expecting her to say something like oh maybe but I
forgot. And then that's when he jumps
in. That I think that's that's
that's the great thing about artlike that.
That's your interpretation. But my interpretation is that

(18:42):
that they're just that's one scene throughout the whole movie
where it shows that he's an unreliable narrator.
His whole like he's dating and it's in his head.
He thinks he's dating Sophie. And in the movie, we see
glimpses where like he's hangingout with his his neighbor and
they're going out on dates. And it's not until like he
breaks into her apartment and she sees them for the first time

(19:02):
as he is. And we see the cut, the
flashbacks to where he she was never with them.
That was all in his head. I think that leads Credence to
like my whole thing that he's anunreliable narrator.
I really love that scene, but you know what?
I judged it unfairly because when it happened, the first
thing that I thought of was House.
That one House episode. I'm like, no, house did it
better. I don't know.

(19:24):
And I just thought to myself, it's good, but it's like the
payoff wasn't as good as it should have been.
OK, the only pushback I'm reallygoing to give that is can you
really say that that's him beingan unreliable narrator, or is
that a consequence of his illness?

(19:46):
When I say unreliable narrator, I mean in terms of like how the
film was made because in story, yes, in in in story universe and
logic that is part of his mentalillness.
He's a pathological liar. He lies to himself, he lies to
others around them, whether or not he knows he's doing it
intentionally or not. I'm going to leave it up to his
mental health. But when I talk about he's an

(20:07):
unreliable narrator, I'm talkingabout in the in the framework of
the movie. Because we followed where we are
watching Joker one through his perspective and when like on a
rewatch, there are certain things where like you're
wondering like, did this really happen or is this in his head?
Another example I want to use iswhen he does his first stand up

(20:30):
gig and he bombs. Like he bombs and then he sees
Sophie in the crowd and after that you don't hear him say
anything, but the music turns up.
It's a lot happier. You see him like stretch out his
arms and like as if he's tellingin his head.
He probably thinks he's telling funny jokes because then you
hear a laughter track that's allin his head.

(20:52):
And I think that's just part of the whole like he is mentally
unwell and that trans that that correlates to the storytelling
that you can't really take what he's showing you or telling you
as fact. Because even another one more
example, I got plenty of examples.
One more example, the the the end of the.
Movie. No, I, I love this movie.

(21:15):
The the very final scene where he's running, he, he's talking
to a social worker. And then the last scene, it
shows like he is running away and you see his footprints.
There's blood. And it was heavily implied that
he, he probably killed a social worker or something like from
all the, from all, all the bloodthat was being shown.
Like that's a lot of blood, but then you folio dude, you see

(21:36):
that she's alive. So clearly she didn't die, which
means like was so was that in his head Also?
Is that more is that more of thewhole unreliable narrator?
Like it LED you to believe that he killed the social worker when
he actually didn't? And I just think that I don't
want to give Todd Phillips his dues for that.
I really don't. But I kind of, I might have to

(21:58):
because I thought that was like a brilliant choice in how they
made the film. Because when you rewatch it,
you're, you're always thinking like, is this really what's
happening or is this in his head?
I do enjoy movies like that. I'm not going to lie, I find it
really interesting that you're such a big fan of this movie,
but you're not willing to give credit to the guy who made it.

(22:20):
Fuck that guy. Oh, OK, I'm fine.
You're talking to me or him? It's because I, I don't, again,
it goes back to my thing where Idon't know, was this Todd
Phillips doing it intentionally?Was this part of his message?
Or is this what I'm interpreting?
Like, am I interpreting the unreliable unreliable narrator
from? Genius can show up.

(22:41):
I understand what you're saying right?
But at the same time, I also think depending on how you
choose to hold that belief, thatgoes to my point where I say the
messaging and the themes of Joker are just incredibly
muddled and Todd Phillips does not have the skill to say what
he wants to say, which is why the movie became so polarizing.

(23:05):
Again, I don't really think thatJoker is some kind of edge Lord
in cell rallying cry. I think I think cast may be on
to something when he said they may have just Co opted it in.
This in terms of the movie may have resonated with them the

(23:25):
most, but I I I just don't thinkthat was Todd Phillips
intention. No, I don't think so, but.
But that's an issue. The fact that it can be so
muddled or misinterpreted, that's a problem.
Whereas you see as a as a sign of transcendence.
That's fine, it should have, butit it should have also works in

(23:49):
the inverse. Oh yeah, you're.
Right, I, I, no, I, I see what you mean.
And I, I do agree with that because I think in the second
one he like that Todd Phillips like, all right, if people
didn't get what I was trying to do in the first one, let me
really show them what I'm tryingto do.
But in the first one, OK, I, I do, I, I can see like your
perspective and I, I, I'm just upset with how Todd Phillips did

(24:13):
the second one. So I'm ready, I'm ready to shit
on everything he did except for Joker one, because it resonated
a lot with me. And there it has in my eyes, it
has more pros than it does have cons like we were when I don't
think we're going to argue abouthow the movie was shot in terms
of the technical details. And I think we're going to agree

(24:34):
the music was fucking brilliant.I love the like I have the
soundtrack saved on my phone andI don't really listen to movie
scores. Well, I was gonna say just
scores in general. Just if if there's no lyrics in
it, I'm probably not going to listen to it.
But the Joker, the Joker album that that is an album that I
will listen to the famous dance,like the the famous dance scene

(24:58):
in the bathroom. That's one of my favorite shots
in the movie. And what I like about it more is
that that was just straight up off the Dome for Joaquin
Phoenix. He just randomly decided to do
that and they kept filming and they were like, you know what,
we're going to keep that. Again, that could speak to Todd.
That could speak to Todd Phillips's incompetence because
I was in his idea. That was Joaquin Phoenix just

(25:19):
having a moment. And they were like, you know
what? That's weird.
But that kind of goes with his character.
So let's keep it because I rewatched Joker 1 and I think
that scene is brilliant because of the music.
So turn up, put put re watch it,put it, put it on mute and just
recontextualize how that scene happened.
Arthur Fleck just killed three people.

(25:41):
You ran away and he hides in thebathroom.
And like, so you're watching allthis in mute.
Like he's just freaking out and he just starts randomly dancing.
And if you watch that, like fromthe perspective of how he was in
terms of like he was alone in a bathroom, so there was going to
be no music, maybe in his head. But if we were just watching him
in real life, that's super awkward.

(26:03):
The way he's moving around. Like he, you go to the bathroom,
you just see some dude and, and the clown makeup just doing
these weird interpretive dance movements.
But with the music and everything, the score that it
was fucking brilliant. But then you watch it without
that music and you just see, yousee, like Joker, he's he's not,
he's not mentally well. And I think that that helps

(26:26):
develop the character even more.See everything you just said
about this scene, all of the reasons you like it, is the
exact reason I find the movie off putting that maybe it's.
Supposed to make you feel that's.
What I think is so interesting about this movie, and that's
again why I say Todd Phillips, it's really the messaging of the
movie. OK, That first dance scene, that

(26:48):
was really the moment where I was thinking to myself, I don't
like this. And it wasn't just I don't like
the movie. It was I don't like the way this
is making me feel. I just, I want to leave.
And it takes a lot for movies tomake me feel that way.

(27:09):
I've watched the two Terrifier films, and, you know, I didn't
really have much of a response to those.
I was just kind of thinking thisis just a little dumb.
Does that mean that you're over your fear of scary movies?
We will now be joining in the theaters for this upcoming
Warner Brothers Warriors movie. It's Warriors.

(27:31):
No, not warriors. What is it?
It's not Warriors. Whatever, I'll go.
He's trying to take you to go see Sinners, now in theaters.
I'll go watch Sinners for sure. Yeah, but or you won't.
I will. Alright, let's watch it.
OK, let's go. Yeah, See everything that you
just said. But again, I'm not going to push
back on the score. I think that is just from a

(27:52):
musical composition standpoint. That's a brilliant score.
I agree. Yeah.
And I think it enhances scenes that otherwise don't have much
to them. I think that dance scene in the
bathroom is just when I thought to myself, this man is insane.

(28:12):
But here's the issue, and maybe this is a problem with me.
I had no sympathy for him. And again, that that that could
be a failing of Todd Phillips. That could be an issue with the
screenplay. Could be an issue with Dylan.
As much as I praised Joaquin Phoenix, I will say I know the

(28:36):
intention of Joaquin's performance is to make you
uncomfortable. I can say that for sure about
his performance, and the only reason I say that is because I
find his laugh really, really grating.
I don't think that way about anyother joker.
I was a fan of the laugh, though.
I like that they made it a, a condition.

(28:58):
And even then, is that a good idea?
Is that really a again, it goes back to like the unreliable
narrator. Is that really a condition or is
that something his mom told him growing up and so he just thinks
it's true? I don't know.
Like, I don't know if that's really a condition or if that's
just part of his mental illness.And his mom encouraged it
because, you know, she was always like, oh, you're he's

(29:20):
such a happy boy, laugh, do this, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah. But I agree, like the laugh, the
laughter was uncomfortable. But I think it's supposed to be
that way. And I think maybe, maybe the
film is supposed to be uncomfortable for people.
I will. Because I OK, sorry, go ahead.
Go ahead. Because I was just going to like

(29:41):
add real quick because I somewhat like, as an advocate
for mental health, I'm surprisedas like how much you're pushing
back on the film. OK, I'm glad you said that
because that's actually what I was about to say.
Go. I'm very critical of art and
media that tries to advocate formental health because I think it
needs to be done in a very specific way.

(30:03):
And when I say specific, I don'tmean it has to appease me.
I mean I think there's a fine line between promoting mental
health awareness and then straying too far to either
extremes. This is my example for
romanticizing mental health problems. 13 reasons Why are
euphoria both. Of.

(30:25):
Those shows, both of those showsare a complete insult to anyone
who has ever been depressed or anxious or anything.
Those shows are fucking laughable.
And if you think they touch on anything meaningful regarding
mental health, I'm sorry but youseriously need to re evaluate
your critical thinking skills. But on the opposite end of the

(30:47):
spectrum, I think you have some projects that they kind of baby
mental health too much in the sense that I'm, I'm not going to
pull any punches here. I think this is happening a lot,
not just in art, but it's happening too much in culture to
where people are using therapy, speak, and just all these

(31:12):
excuses as an excuse to never beaccountable for anything.
People will say like, oh, that triggered me or oh, I have ADHD
so you can't expect me to do this or I have depression, you
can't expect me to do this. There is a fine line to strike
when you address mental health, regardless of what the condition

(31:34):
is. And I just, I don't think Joker,
again for me, did a good job of getting me to sympathize with
him. It did make me really
uncomfortable. But I just, I, I couldn't find
it in me to feel empathetic for Arthur Fleck.

(31:55):
And maybe that does say more about me than it says about Todd
Phillips. But I I do agree that Joaquin
Phoenix's performance, at the very least, is meant to make you
uncomfortable. For as much as I hate the laugh,
I agree that the intention is for it to be grading, to be kind

(32:16):
of getting on your nerves because this is something I
wrote in my notes is one thing Inoticed about Joaquin Phoenix's
performance in the first movie is he's very skeletal with his
physicality, yes. He lost a lot.
He. Does this thing with his
shoulder blades that is just very uncanny.

(32:37):
Right, I think he makes himself smaller.
Yeah. So he he does this this thing
with his movements that is really uncomfortable.
But it's something about the performance and the writing and
the themes of the movie that I think just really clash for me

(33:01):
to where I am not fully able to get on his side.
And again, I do say this as someone who is, I would consider
myself a pretty big advocate formental health.
I just don't think, you know what I have self-awareness.
I'm going to come out and say this.
Maybe I'm just an asshole because I've never dealt with

(33:22):
that. You said yourself you saw
yourself somewhat in Arthur Fleck.
Again, that's not to say that you identify with him
completely, no or agree with hisactions because you were going
through something. Me personally in the Batman,
this wing is so traumatized by the grief from losing his

(33:47):
parents he thinks it's his responsibility.
I had a very, very similar experience, thankfully not with
my parents, but to where I couldrelate to that emotionality of
feeling responsible for the lossof someone.
That messed me up in a good way,right?

(34:09):
But so maybe I can admit this, maybe I'm just being an asshole
because I've never been through a situation that Arthur has
been. Right to where this is a.
Very, very serious mental illness.
And I'm not saying I'm not trying to downplay certain
mental health conditions, but I think things like depression and

(34:30):
anxiety are obviously functionalfor a reason, whereas whatever
is wrong with Arthur is is clearly debilitating.
Yeah. Yeah, I think the more we talk
about like the first film, the more, and I'm, I'm seeing in my
notes too, like I had, I had written, I had written down like
16 minutes into the film, a gun is shown.

(34:50):
Like when Randall sells or not even sells, he gives Arthur the
gun. And when I saw that, I mainly
thought of Chekhov's gun. If a gun is introduced in the
first act, it should be fired inthe following act.
That's usually like a rule of thumb for like the way movies
are made. And I think that this movie is
such a, an incoherent but beautiful mess because the first

(35:12):
shot is not fired in the second act.
It's fired in the first act still because OK, well, first,
before I go into further, I think the the second act starts
on the subway. Try on the subway or on the
train where he kills the three, the three guys.
I think that's where the second act starts for the movie because
that that becomes like the plot pushing forward is the three.

(35:33):
I would agree, because the inciting incident always happens
at the end of the first act. Yeah, so I think so.
So that if we can, if we consider that that's the second
act. So obviously the gun is fired
there. The gun was fired before that.
It was when he was doing like those awkward dance movements
and he and he's playing wrong with the gun and he just points
it down like, hey, how you doing?
And boom, she shoots the couch because he doesn't know what the

(35:55):
fuck he's doing. And I think that speaks to like
the, again, I don't want to giveTodd Phillips his, his dues, but
I think there is some like, you know, like, ah, the he, he's
doing that on purpose at least. Like, you know, I just brought
up Chekhov's gun and rather thanfiring it on firing it at the,
the first time it's fired is in the second act.
It's false fired in the first act.

(36:18):
And I think, you know what, likethinking about it critically,
I'm, I'm like, you know what? Like this goes on or this goes
along with the whole, like, thisis an incoherent mess of a
movie. And for me personally, in a
brilliant way, the unreliable narrator firing off the
misfiring the gun in the first act and then using it again in
the 2nd and even the third act with Murray, like, I just

(36:40):
thought that that part was brilliant.
And I think maybe that's why, like maybe that's why you love
the Batman so much, because you saw yourself so much in the, in
Robert Pattinson's Bruce Wayne, where I was like, maybe, like,
I'm not going to say I saw myself in Arthur Fleck, but I
was able to empathize and sympathize with what he was
going through. And I, I, I want to go on a

(37:01):
slight tangent because around in2019 when this movie was going
to come out, there was a lot of discussion around the media.
We touched on this in in a previous episode, but there was
a lot of discussion within the media that this was going to
incite riots and and shootings and all that.
Do. Remember something?
And I think that was way overblown just because, like,
that one time in 2008 when The Dark Knight came out there,

(37:24):
someone dressed as Heath Ledger.Yeah, shooting.
And I think maybe that's why it was like a callback to that.
The media was afraid that that was going to happen again.
Like, oh, it's a Batman movie, Joker.
People are going to watch this film and just shoot up
everything. Nothing happened.
And that was that was a gross overreaction by the media, by

(37:46):
like the Youtubers who were like, we're clearly getting out
on this cash grab. That's what.
I'm going to come in hot and addon to that.
I think when we talk about movies, to some degree you do
need to consider the political context in which they came out.
Joker came out in 2019. That was in the middle of the

(38:06):
Trump administration. Of course people were
sensationalizing things because of all the mass shootings that
happened from 2017 to 2020. Yeah, but those were contained
to schools. Right.
But I think people were just looking for an excuse like, hey,
let's just like, let's just shiton this movie.
Like because this is before it came out.

(38:27):
I do agree that it was blown outof proportion.
I just think that because the political landscape was such a
mess that it made the media. And like you said, there were a
lot of Youtubers that jumped on it as well.
And those Youtubers, it made them more, I don't know what the
right word is emboldened to to run with this narrative.

(38:51):
I think it I think the narrativegot away from Joker, Todd
Phillips and the production team.
Yeah. I also think that was a big part
of the reason the movie was so divisive.
I think if they were better ableto control the narrative, I
actually think more people mighthave understood it.
Because believe it or not, I do think unfortunately people were

(39:12):
influenced by all this media coverage of saying it is going
to incite violence, it is going to birth mass shooters right on
it. And.
That would explain why people thought of it as the install
manifesto. Yeah, but then the movie went
off, went off to gross over a billion dollars. 4 rated R movie
which I need someone to Fact Check me on this but had that

(39:35):
had that been done before? It had not.
It did not. The highest grossing R rated
movie before that was fucking Deadpool.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
And that was. And that wasn't then.
It ain't crossed a billion dollars.
You know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
bolster Jesse here. Joker is a better movie than
Deadpool. Fuck yeah, without a doubt.

(39:57):
Because at least Joker, regardless of what I think of
Todd Phillips. At least there's thought to that
movie then. There's.
To that movie. But it's a good time.
But I you know what? I'm it's a good time.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna take the, I'm gonna take the prop.
But yeah, I'm just looking through my notes because there's

(40:17):
a lot that I could talk about the story and because because I
guess that's what the real meat that I'm going to get to or talk
about most. Circle back once we actually
touch on OK, do yeah for. Sure.
Well, do we want to go into folly a do now?
Or, well, finish your point. I didn't mean to cut you off.
Well, I was just going to bring up something else that had

(40:37):
written down was the whole Arthur's got mommy and daddy
issues. And I think they they do show
that. They show that in the film with
he. Has.
Yeah, he has a pair of social relationship with Murray.
He has a pair of social relationship with Thomas Wayne.
But the Thomas Wayne one is quickly just shut down.

(40:58):
He confronts him, Thomas puncheshim in the face and he's like,
that's it. Like this dad, he's not my
daddy. But in his head, he still sees
like Murray as like that's the father figure 'cause he even has
this Daydream sequence where he's on the Murray show and
Murray hugs him at some point and he's like, I'd give, I'd
give it all up. You see all the lights, all the

(41:20):
cameras and all this. I would give it all up in a
heartbeat, heartbeat to have a kid like you.
And that's obviously like that's, that's, that's what
Arthur wants. He wants that love and
compassion that you would get from a father, which he, he, he
didn't, he didn't have. So I just wanted to bring that
up in terms of, like, the story,Like, that's another thing that

(41:41):
it just, there's just so many things wrong with Arthur that
it's just hard to like, just I end up just feeling bad for the
dude because it's everything. Everything in his life that
could go wrong goes wrong. Yeah, he's for one.
Like, that's not even his real mom.
He was adopted by, like, some crazy lady who let her boyfriend

(42:03):
abuse and sexually abuse her child.
And the city, the Gotham, the Gotham City, the institution
failed them so much because theylet that kid go back and live
with his mom. Like, if you think about it,
what kind of like they found thekid tied to a radiator, he had
bruises and everything. And after interviewing the mom,

(42:25):
they're like, all right, well, we're just going to release the
kid back with you. Like that fucked him up.
And that speaks to the whole like, the institution, like
Gotham City is corrupt. It's disgusting.
There's no Batman yet. So it's just all like just
shitty everywhere. And Arthur Fleck was someone who
just fell down the like fell down the cracks of like a shitty

(42:47):
society. Again, the time of that that
that that would have taken placewould be in the 1970s eighty
one. But.
Not because when he's a kid. Oh yeah, God, give me a
question. Or that one, maybe 1960s, I
don't know. Yeah, but still, I don't know
how strong their Child Protective Services were back

(43:08):
then. So Fairpoint.
All psychiatry was definitely not very advanced.
I don't think it was alive yet. In the 80s, well.
I sound 60s, this should be 60s.Well, 60s it was.
It was going all well and good until Richard Nixon decided to
shut down the research of psychedelics with the Controlled

(43:30):
Substances Act. Where is he going?
I'm like thinking to myself like.
He's advocating for mental health, exactly.
And mental Wellness. I'm like thinking to myself,
it's like, which law is that? Nixon?
I did not click. And then you said I'm like, Oh
my God, I did not. This is the last thing I'm going
to say. Jesse is is he came prepared.

(43:51):
I'm ready. He is is making such good
points. He's so passionate about them.
I'm going to give Joker a rewatch because just listening
to you talk, you're kind of bringing me on his side right
now. Fuck yeah.
Because especially when you talked about the the issue of
the parents and needing that presence in your life, whether

(44:15):
it's a mother or a father, everybody, regardless of how
tough you think you are, does ultimately want to feel loved
and accepted. And the 1st experience a child
is supposed to have of that is with their parents.
And you saying that and, and delivering it with such passion

(44:36):
that that spoke to me because I,I really, I can't imagine my
life without my parents when I was younger, right?
So yeah. And I'm going to heed your words
and give it a watch. Not a rewatch.
Nice, because I think watching it, I, I think Arthur did love

(44:58):
his mom, but once he finds out that, hey, she lied to me all my
life. She's not even my real mom.
She's actually like a crazy narcissistic person.
He kills his own mom and that's that's, that's and I think that
symbolized like he killed and the last part of love that he
had for anybody he killed that he could.

(45:18):
After that, that's when he transitions to the becoming the
Joker. Was this before or after Sophie
dumped him or told him to get out of his house?
After he he he kills his mom. After that he goes back home and
starts like putting on makeup togo on the Murray show.
He killed his mom the same the morning of the day he went to do
the Murray show. So the Sophie thing happened

(45:39):
before that. It might happen the day or two
before that just. Trying to get a timetable on.
It's been 6 years, right? I've seen this movie.
So those of you listening, who do you more resonate with him
With Jesse's take on it, Is Dylan really an asshole or is it
correct? Or are you starting to feel like

(46:00):
Dylan where originally you didn't like it but now you're
moving towards it? Either or we're for rewatch to
either reconfirm your original beliefs or see if you can see
something from a different perspective.
I'm going to be honest guys, Jesse just straight up
intellectually outpaced me on this first Joker for me, plain
and simple. I can admit it.

(46:21):
So let's move over to Foley. Adieu.
Oh man, this is a truly polarizing movie.
Because I heard all of the talk about it, and obviously,
considering I'm not a fan of thefirst Joker movie, I didn't
really read much into it. The first time I watched it I

(46:44):
thought OK this is pretty bad but I didn't really give it a
second thought. Then when we planned this
episode, I obviously had to rewatch it because I didn't
really remember it other than the half baked musical aspect.
Otherwise you'd struggle like metalking about Joker one.
And I'm not going to lie to you,the 1st 15 to 20 minutes of
Foley adieu. I thought I kind of fuck with

(47:06):
this. And then the movie kept going
and kept going and kept going. Two hours and 15 minutes.
I thought to myself, this is excruciating.
Can this please just be over? Because I I just want to watch
something fucking terrible, likesomething that's that's that's

(47:30):
light, but something that knows it's terrible.
After that, that, that's the thekind of mood Foley you do put me
in. Yeah, I I wanted to, like Folia,
do before, Before 'cause this movie came out last year and
they announced it last year. And for movies that I really

(47:52):
look forward to, I don't watch the trailers for them.
I avoid them. Very smart thing to.
Do yeah, like I I I I don't watch them on YouTube.
That way the algorithm doesn't feed any more like trailers and
shit like that. I I just stay away.
So for Joker, yeah, Folia do. I didn't watch anything.
I heard about it and I was like,OK, I don't think the first one
needed a sequel, but I loved thefirst one, so I was willing to

(48:16):
give it a a chance. And then it came out and I
remember like before I hadn't even come out, people were
already shitting on it because they had previewed early at the
Cannes festival. And people worry should.
Reviews were. Yeah, the reviews.
Were. Live.
Like they were really trying to save face by saying that oh

(48:36):
Joker folio dude had like a 10 minute standing ovation.
Like they were really, really. I'm just going to say you can't
really trust those standing ovation reports.
Because everyone gets that. Because yeah, when you go to a
Film Festival, people are just trying to celebrate the art
form, so a standing ovation in and of itself does not mean

(48:57):
anything. Right, it means.
Regarding the film's quality, well, yeah.
I. Agree with that if it would mean
something if you didn't get one.That that would be a shitty.
Imagine having a movie so bad that the con festival No one no
one class. Or more like, no one's
interested in it because, you know, the that's people who
enjoy films for being films. You're trying to get

(49:18):
distribution when you put your film into a festival, Yeah.
I don't think Joker needed to dothat, I think, but I think they
were just trying to be artsy it.Didn't but that see, that's Todd
Phillips's ego. He he so desperately wants to be
seen as a real filmmaker like Michael Bay.
He he's entering Joker Foley do into film festivals when it

(49:40):
doesn't need to be. It was going to be given a wide
distribution regardless. It's a sequel to a billion
dollar movie. It has Joker in it.
It didn't mean to be in in Cannes, but.
What? That probably ended up hurting
it more than anything. Oh, I did.
But what did you think about thetitle?
Because when the title was announced, like Joker Foley do,

(50:01):
and I think that's French for a dance of two, a dance of
madness. I yeah, no, me being like, like
low key Francophile. I was all about it.
I was like, you know what? It's trying to be artsy but I
fuck with it. I think it's an amazing title.
It is an amazing. Film.
It's just, it's just too bad that the movie does not live up
to that title because. Not at all.

(50:23):
Because all right, let's let's get into it.
So when the movie came out, I had already told myself, I'm
gonna watch, I'm gonna watch this movie in theaters.
And I remember I texted cats like, yo, let's go watch this
film. And he hit me with that.
Nah, I've already seen the reviews.
I don't think I'm gonna like it.And I was like, that's not what
I said. I didn't see it.
You know what? I have rubbed off on you.

(50:43):
Did I? I don't think I said I.
Talk for me, I'm gonna go check my text messages.
That's gonna be a long I'll. Say real quick fully, you do.
For me, I did not watch it in the theaters again.
For me, what's so strange about it is it, at least on the
surface, it's kind of everythingthat I look for in a sequel in

(51:04):
the sense that it had a good blueprint.
It's bold, it's ambitious, it has something to say, and it
takes the story in new and interesting directions, to say
the least. But at the same time, it's
disjointed, uneven, and all those creative decisions I just

(51:25):
talked about, even though they're given quite a bit of
ingenuity, the execution of those things just kind of falls
flat on its face. I agree with that.
Saturday October 5th 1436 Pacific Standard Time Jesse want
to get high and see Joker today.Caster.

(51:45):
What time Jesse 640 or 9? It's a 2 1/2 hour long movie.
Caster. Fuck.
I haven't heard good things about it and I was like, me
neither, unfortunately. And then you were like, I was on
board until you hit me with the 2 1/2 hour long movie and yeah,
you. So point being, you were you had
said I didn't hear good things about it and that wasn't

(52:06):
reviews. Sure, but what?
Who else did you hear things from?
It was just like. Probably done that right before.
Point being, I invited you to go, you didn't go.
So I was like fuck you, I'm going to go by myself.
Like I I am totally OK by going with going to the movies by
myself. So I went to see this movie I.
Think everybody needs to do thatat least once.

(52:28):
Yes, it's so much fun like. Is it?
I've done a couple times and I'mlike.
I enjoy it because I if when yougo to the movie theater, yes,
it's fun to go with your friendsbecause you can have people to
talk to when shit is happening. But there's something to be said
about going to the movie theaterand experiencing it by yourself
and personally. Like some people can do things

(52:49):
alone. I can do things alone and going
to the movies by myself is a hobby of mine.
I've done it. That's why I run.
I spend time alone with my thoughts every single day and I
have a deep meditative practice.This is not.
How does that relate to the ideal theaters alone?
Because what he's talking about is there's value in.

(53:10):
Doing things by doing. Things by yourself, and although
you may not be alone with your thoughts because you're watching
the movie, you have to be present with your response alone
to the movie, OK? For context, these two are very
loud and very vocal about their opinion while it's playing.

(53:30):
And I don't know if I agree withthat.
OK, maybe maybe just me. And if if Dylan is, it's because
I rub off on him. We're just trying to just trying
to make it. It's definitely when you just
work together, yeah. What you're trying to say?
Then when you 2 are together. That's not what this podcast is
like. We're fun, Yeah.
Are you not fun? It's just like I'm sitting there

(53:52):
quietly watching a movie. And you know how when you're
watching a movie and then this is like loud, obnoxious guy just
screaming and you just want to tell him to shut the fuck up?
I'm sitting next to 2 and I don't know what to do.
Just enjoy the ride I. Don't think that happened during
Novocaine. Or Mickey 17, no.
Not Novocaine. He didn't could watch Mickey 17
until it definitely happened. It's happened but I'm blank.

(54:15):
I'll think about it all. Right us doing that during
Craven is that you can expect that.
Craven that that was we had. No choice which you.
Think is a good movie we. Had no choice.
But that wasn't the first time you've done it, you should say.
You're fun. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not.
Any other examples right now? I know it's happened before

(54:36):
because I'm. Like, Oh no, I I know it's
happened before, but you're blanking now, so I.
Guarantee you it will not happentomorrow.
I hope so. I hope so.
Please, please don't. Unless if he's scared, then it
might happen. Unless it sucks.
Oh yeah, you're trying to bring up that story again.
But but anyway, so Joker, so joker fully do I when I went

(54:57):
into it, I so I had already heard the chatter.
Unfortunately, I wasn't trying to see it, but it made its way
to me. I saw the chatter, I saw the
reviews and I was like, fuck, this is going to taint my view
of the movie because I don't like to watch a movie with
knowing like the review score. I I want to watch a movie just
blank with like nobody's opinioninfluencing my own.

(55:19):
But it with with Joker folio do it kind of already happened and
I was kind of like, fuck, whoop,just going to see how it goes.
So I go to the theater and like as you said, in the 1st 15
minutes, I was there, I was there.
The first opening musical I think is within like the 1st 15
minutes and it was weird and awkward, but I, I was there, I

(55:41):
was like, you know what? This is a musical.
I'm here for it. Yeah.
But as the movie went on like and on like I'm going to, I'm
going to see my the positives. I love the way this movie was
shot. I love the cinematography of
like the technical aspect of it.It happens somewhere in like in
the beginning of the movie wherehe's walking with the guards and

(56:04):
then all the guards have an umbrella except for Arthur.
And the camera pans up and like everybody has a different
colored umbrella. And just the colors are so
vibrant in this gloomy and depressing movie.
And there's a lot of scenes likethat where the colors are very
vibrant and they they stand out.It's more so in the musical
aspects when it's like with withJoker and Harley in, in their

(56:27):
delusional madness. I love those shots.
I love them. I love all the musicals.
When it was just Joker and Harley, I was a fan of all of
them. There are some musicals that
some musical numbers that I would have cut out because I
wasn't a fan of them. But personally, I when I when I
left the movie theater, obviously I was upset.

(56:48):
I was upset because of how much I loved the first film and I
felt that this film shit all over what the first one meant to
me. But at the same time I was
thinking, no, there's, there is a good movie in here.
It's just the way that Todd Phillips decided to to edit and
cut this movie because I think Todd Phillips saw the reaction

(57:12):
to how people took his movie, the original 1.
And I think he was like, yo, toomany people like this movie.
That's that's not what my message was.
Let me people are relate, are are relating to this character
too much. Let me let me just overwork and
swing the pendulum this way and make Arthur flag out to be like
a true fucking incel and loser. And that rubbed me the wrong way

(57:38):
because I feel like it undid allthe character development that
Arthur went through in the firstfilm and I wasn't a fan of it.
OK. If we're going to point out the
positives first, I agree with you that the cinematography is
generally excellent in folio do,especially during the musical

(58:02):
numbers. I think the sets that they build
for some of those are truly breathtaking.
I'm not going to lie, I was actually enchanted by a couple
of them. Did you feel like you were
there? The the Hotel Arkham set, I
thought that was beautiful. It kind of reminded me of Lala
Land, and we all know how I feelabout Lala Land.

(58:24):
If you've watched this review and go to Nightfall.
Plug. Make sure you comment and
subscribe. So we all know how I feel about
Lala Land and that sequence reminded me of it.
So similar to what you just said, there are aspects of Foley
do that I thought really worked for me.

(58:45):
And as the movie kept going on, I couldn't help but ask myself,
this is one of the big questionsthat I went in with rewatching
this movie was I wondered. I know I just said all this
because I was ragging on the guy, but I wondered after the
first film if Todd Phillips had a grasp of what the take away

(59:08):
from the first Joker should havebeen.
And to me this movie proves he did but he just didn't have
again the skill to deliver it through cinematic language.
And a lot of this movie, to me, what Jesse just said about Todd

(59:30):
Phillips taking Arthur Fleck, removing the character
development, really knocking himdown a peg to try and teach the
audience a lesson. To me that felt more like Todd
Phillips almost wallowing in this self pity of being upset
that his first Joker movie was misappropriated by the wrong

(59:52):
audience. Yeah, I, I, I, I agree.
I, I think he saw how the fans were taking it and he was like,
Yo, I don't want people to see my, interpret my movie this way.
So let me just undo everything Idid that way.
Like you really get my message. And I fucking hated it.
But like I said, I, I, I walked away from the theater thinking

(01:00:16):
that there is a good movie in here.
And the reason I I can say that or I say that is because or I
was going to bring up a scene the the Gary puddle scene.
I think that's the best scene inthe whole movie.
And I think the way it was shot,the motions that it carried, it
was very competent, competently well done.
So it makes me think that no, this this is the this is the

(01:00:39):
nugget of like what the movie could have been.
There are good scenes in here. It's just the way that they were
cut up and put up and the way that the character, like the way
that it Arthur, is basically being undone from the Joker.
And if Joker, if Joker in 2019 was shot was a movie about

(01:00:59):
Arthur's transformation into theJoker, Joker Foley do was Joker
Joker's transformation back to Arthur Fleck.
So if the first one was trying to humanize them and then
dehumanize them to become the Joker, the second one tried to
undo that. And I think in the hands of a
competent director, it could have been done great.
De idolizing him and then humanizing.

(01:01:20):
Him, yes. I think it could have been done
great, yeah. But Todd Phillips just didn't do
that. And I think he did that on
purpose 'cause I think he made this movie as a giant middle
finger to everybody that loved the first one.
So I felt personally affronted by his the way he did.
He decided to do this movie. I don't know if I agree with

(01:01:42):
that sentiment. I I can't speak for Todd
Phillips, but just the way that this movie.
Feels like you have been Feels. Just the way that the movie
feels, the way it plays out, I honestly believe it was more
that he was upset that he feels misunderstood.

(01:02:04):
Because I think the one thing I kind of glean from Todd Phillips
filmography is he is an artist who thinks that he is highbrow
and wants to be taken seriously.That's why he used so much of
Taxi Driver and King of Comedy for the first Joker, because he
wants to be seen as this prestige director, but he's just

(01:02:28):
not. No, but.
He has the right idea. Something that I think is
interesting about both Joker andFolia do is I think Todd
Phillips has weirdly found a kindred spirit with Joaquin
Phoenix. Because Joaquin Phoenix is
another actor or another performer who to me, based on

(01:02:52):
some of the things I've read with him, I've read he's pretty
difficult to work with. He feels kind of similar to Todd
Phillips in the sense that Joaquin Phoenix often feels like
he's misunderstood as an artist,that people don't really quite
understand what he's trying to do.
So I think Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix have actually

(01:03:12):
found an interesting partnershipthere.
I just I agree that Folia Do clearly has something to say.
This movie is constantly in conversation with the first film
and it's very meta textual, but that could be very interesting.
Similar to what Cash just said of sort of de idolizing Arthur

(01:03:39):
Fleck and humanizing him. That would work if you remove
all of the spite from Foley do. Because something I couldn't
shake while watching this movie was that it's just so mean
spirited and I don't know, again, I don't know if I could
say who that's directed towards,if that's directed towards fans.

(01:03:59):
The first one, if that's directed to say maybe the
critics who said this was going to be some kind of issue with in
cells or possibly resulting in violence.
I don't know who that's directedat, but Foley to Do is one of
the most mean spirited films I've ever seen and that's saying
something. He's seen 1832.

(01:04:21):
Film. God damn.
But. Damn, no, I'm I'm in.
I'm in agreement with you there.Just just like Arthur Flag, his
character went through more abuse in this film than he did
in the original 1 like, and I think that's that says a lot.
He was he was abused and mistreated by the the guards.

(01:04:45):
Arkham Asylum, everyone glorifies them.
No one sees them as a person. And it's just Todd Phillips
intentionally. I think he intentionally made
this mean spirited movie. And I, I, I think it's funny
that you that you said that Joaquin Phoenix and and Todd
Phillips have like this kindred kindred spirit.

(01:05:07):
I was going to make the comparison that like Joaquin
Phoenix and Robert Pattinson. I think they were, they're
similar in terms of the, the roles that they play because
Joaquin Phoenix and he said in interviews, I've read up on him
that he plays the weird characters.
He plays the misunderstood freaks, if like just just to put

(01:05:27):
it bluntly. And who else does that?
Robert Pattinson I was going to bring up like, like for example,
Joaquin Phoenix, another movie Isaw I've seen him in is her and
in that one he's just so awkwardand like I, I don't maybe
misunderstood, sure, but he Joaquin Phoenix has an affinity

(01:05:48):
for playing those misunderstood characters.
Napoleon. That was another one more
recently. I I didn't get the chance to
watch that I. Haven't gotten the chance to
watch. It on Apple TV plug but okay
well that one that was another where.
If you want to sponsor. Us Apple, please do, but they
won't. But no, it'd be nice.

(01:06:09):
But that's another character that he plays, Napoleon and the
way he does that character, I think it's very in line with
Joaquin Phoenix in terms of of how he choose to perform these.
Very. He knows how to make you feel
uncomfortable. Yes, and I think that that is
something that he's good at and he he he he thrives in that and

(01:06:32):
I think we need like we need we need actors in back in fill
those roles. Like you can't always have like
a guy that he's typecast as the comedy dude or whatever.
Like I think it's. Downey Junior.
Is he typecast as a comedy dude?Well, I thought you were going
to say charismatic. Oh, I already had a thought.
Well, yeah. Well, damn, now you made me lose
my show, I thought. But.

(01:06:53):
I don't know how much I agree with the comparison of Joaquin.
Phoenix No, I could tell you it was hurting him.
Oh, no, no. I had to punch the wall.
Rob, I think, does it in a much more graceful and nuanced way.
I I can't think of a. Similar to weird characters.
Either Yeah, I can't think of a single Robert Pattinson
character that has been as off putting as Arthur Fleck in the

(01:07:15):
1st. 2017 No. I was so off put by the voice.
You loved it? I did.
I was off with it so much. Just the same way that Joker's
laugh made you uncomfortable. No way.
Robert kind of said like the thevoice that he did for Mickey 17.
I mean, it didn't make me uncomfortable.
Person teens or Mickey 18 No. No, I liked Mickey 18's voice,

(01:07:36):
like Dylan said in the in the movie did the episode he brought
a little, he brought a little Batman into that voice.
So yeah. That's honest.
That's honest. So I didn't like it.
So I'm OK with Mickey 18. It was Mickey 17 like like his
voice was higher. I wasn't a fan of that one.
But I think but that that goes to my point that he like he will

(01:07:58):
play those roles and he will addlike a little flair to it.
I I will dare say even the Batman, like he, his portrayal
of Bruce Wayne is not typical towhat we see it's supposed to be
like. It's a part of a story that's
never told. It exactly.
But I think that Robert Pattinson was the actor to do
that because he he played like the way he prepared to me and

(01:08:20):
the way he portrays Bruce Wayne.It's weird, but in an unsettling
way, not weird in the Arthur Fleck.
Like I feel bad for him. Way I don't agree with that at
all. I, I, I, I think it's, I
empathize with Rob's Bruce way more than I did with Arthur

(01:08:40):
Fleck. I I was completely unsettled by
Phoenix's performances. I think that was the argument.
Was that the argument he was made where you were making?
He just said that Bob's Bruce Wayne was weird.
In an unsettling way, yes. I don't.
I don't think so. See, but I think that's because
you, in the same way that I saw myself in Arthur and you
couldn't you see yourself in this Bruce Wayne where I

(01:09:03):
couldn't. But I I could see like I did
feel like man, like this is a Bruce Wayne that's grieving.
He's suffering, but he was just so awful.
Weird maybe? Weird and uncomfortable, like
like he was just awkward in his interactions as a Batman, he was
brilliant. But when he was Bruce Wayne, he
goes up to Falcone. Like when he's Batman, oh,
shoulders out, standing tall, deep voice.

(01:09:25):
When he, when he's Bruce Wayne, shoulders tucked in, he makes
himself smaller. Like he's awkward.
And I, I, that's me. That exactly.
I'm praising Robert like I'm praising his performance.
I'm just saying that like he plays those weird characters and
I'm I'm using weird like in a good way.
No. Do you understand?
Yeah. I just, I don't know, negative

(01:09:47):
connotation here. I see the similarity there.
And I think that that that's thebrilliance of art that people
can like just take different interpretations and walk away
with like a different viewing ofthat.
And that's what I'm trying to get with like Folia do.
While I was trying to like, I wanted to find a good movie in
here because I think there is a good movie in here.

(01:10:10):
And one of the things I saw people complaining about and
Folia do was, oh, the way that art, like the way Joaquin
Phoenix sings, it's off putting and weird.
That's good because I haven't even given my side of what what
experience I'll watch in. The bro jump in.
Yeah, nobody's sidelining you. No, I'm just like, because
you're like, so into it. I'm just like, keep going, keep.

(01:10:30):
Going Was it that obvious that Iwas pained by the raw?
Pets. Oh yeah, big time, dude.
That hurt me. That thing you all punching the
wall was like, that was a lie. You didn't.
Feel like you got to clip this part just for the hell of it.
I'm. Like he wasn't gonna punch the
wall, but it looked like, like he it looked like he, he

(01:10:51):
literally hurt himself, but he was trying to hide it like he
got punched and he's trying to tough it out like he had that
kind. Of I looked, I basically looked
like Robert Pattinson when when Selena told him she was leaving.
Exactly. But OK, so but let me just
restart then. One of the things that I saw
people complaining about in regarding Joker folio do was

(01:11:16):
Arthur's or Joaquin Phoenix's singing.
And personally, I think it was intentional.
He he was bad. He he sang bad.
But I think that was an intentional artistic choice
because we're watching the film through the eyes of Arthur
Fleck. And like the Joker, he's not
going to have a great singing voice.

(01:11:37):
But you know who is fucking LadyGaga?
And I think that was a great contrast to show like let's
highlight Lady Gaga's performance will also like
downplaying like Joaquin Phoenix's performance and as
like the Joker, because I said this in the previous episode,
like Joaquin Phoenix, Joaquin Phoenix can sing.
Still haven't seen Walk the Line, but Dylan has and he can't

(01:11:58):
confirm Joaquin. He can.
Sing, He can sing. He can definitely sing, and his
rendition of Ring of Fire is pretty.
Solid. And where does he sing that?
Walk the line. Oh, oh, I'm sorry, I thought you
were literally man. He hasn't walked the line.
No, it's, I think telling the six, telling the seven film.
That was my biopic. No, yeah, that was a metaphor.
It's a musical from Pom me and Joaquini Phoenix is in it so he

(01:12:21):
can sing. And that was one of the big, one
of the biggest critiques in the film about the film was like the
the bad singing. But I think it was intentional.
And then later on I did watch like a like an interview with
Joaquin Phoenix and Lady Gaga. And there's they brought it or
Joaquin brought it up that Lady Gaga, it was actually Lady

(01:12:42):
Gaga's idea. She was like, we're when we do
the the singing, we're going to do it live, like no prerecorded
thing. And Joaquin was uncomfortable
with that. He didn't want to do it.
But then she was then she brought it up like this is from
like his perspective. So it should be bad.
It should be grading. And Joaquin was like, you know
what? Yeah, you're right.
The one thing I want to point out before you get to the Lady

(01:13:05):
Gaga aspect, because I think we both have strong feelings about
her in this movie, is that is itthat Joaquin Phoenix was singing
bad or that they just weren't really singing?
Because to me, when I rewatched this movie a couple days ago was
my issue with the musical numbers was that they weren't

(01:13:28):
real musical numbers. It the movie doesn't really
commit to being a musical in thetraditional sense, like Lala
Lander singing in the rain. They kind of they kind of do
this weird talk sing thing in folio do.
And I have to wonder if that's not contributing to part of the

(01:13:50):
criticism of Joaquin Phoenix. Sure, you could say that it it
is intentional. And given the interview you just
referenced, it sounds to me likeit is.
But I do think part of the issuetoo is that it's not traditional
singing in the sense that they weren't interjecting a lot of
harmony or melody or pitch. It was very much this like weird

(01:14:14):
sing talk thing that people justkind of do when they're speaking
playfully, right? You're in the High School
Musical. High School Musical is a
classic. Don't ever insult that movie
again. I was going to say, like, that's
actually a musical. Yeah, that is an actual.
Musical, but I, I'm not going totake credit for this.

(01:14:34):
Like you, you said it, this movie was a jukebox comedy or
not comedy. Sorry, jukebox musical.
There was no original song, which pisses me off because
because prior prior to the when the movie come out it all I knew
about it was oh it's going to bea courtroom drama and a musical.

(01:14:54):
That is such an original idea that I was fully on board.
Strange combination, yeah? I was fully there, people, I I
saw people were shitting on it before I had come out and even
aired at the Cannes festival that oh, it's, it's a musical,
it's going to be bad. I was like, no, hold on, like
let this could be something great like that.
It's different. Maybe like when, as we said in

(01:15:16):
one of the previous episodes, weneed more original movies.
This was an original movie. It's still a bad movie The way
it was. It was done, but it was an
original movie. And I do want more of these.
But as you said and how you reference, like they didn't
stand on business. If they were going to do a
musical, they should have gone all the way.
Yes, you had fucking Lady Gaga. She could have composed some

(01:15:39):
fucking brilliant songs for the film.
I bet she wanted to but they forsome reason they didn't.
They have commit. Make it a jukebox thing where
they sing or re sing songs that already exist out there.
Covers. Covers, yeah, basically cover
musical and that, that that was a blunder. 100% I will say that

(01:16:04):
when they announced Joker was getting a sequel, my response
was I don't care at all. When they announced it was a
musical, my response was OK. When they cast Lady Gaga, I was
thinking, all right, let's go. Now I'm interested because she
was amazing in a star's born from 2018, and Lady Gaga in this

(01:16:30):
movie was criminally underutilized.
I think she was excellent when she was in the movie, but she
was not used to her fullest potential at all.
And one thing I will say is she continues to prove that she is
actually a pretty good actress because some people really
cannot make that transition frombeing a recording artist to a

(01:16:50):
screen actor. They really, really struggle.
I don't think Lady Gaga has thatproblem to me in this movie,
even though I think she is criminally underutilized.
To me, she proves that she continues to make interesting
choices regarding what project she's actually in.
But she also proves that she is a good actress because she was

(01:17:12):
pretty much the only part of this movie that I was interested
in. And I think it's a damn shame
that not only did they not writeor perform any original songs
for this movie, because if you're going to be a musical,
then be a musical. Commit to that idea.
Write original songs, compose original songs and perform them.

(01:17:33):
But to you cast Lady Gaga, let her flex the pipes.
I don't understand why you're not letting her sing.
The Best Song in folia do is when they kind of let her get
there when they cover the the Sonny and Cher song.
But every single song apart fromthat, they don't even get close

(01:17:56):
to letting Lady Gaga flex her talents, and I think that is a
big, big mistake. Oh yeah, it's.
Only to do makes. It's definitely because, well,
you know what? When I first saw this movie
today, yesterday, I over and analyzed.
I didn't go in just like. Was it really today?
Yes, it was today. Damn.

(01:18:17):
No, yesterday. Oh OK.
I was like, that's dedication. Just watching this hours before
we do this. Yeah, exactly.
Is that is that dedication or isthat someone homework?
Classmation. Yeah, I I thought it'd be best
if I had a fresh in my mind coming in.
But this is like you in high school doing your calculus
homework the morning. That's do I could do.

(01:18:37):
Hey yo, shout out to Mr. Shearer, great professor or
professor fucking teacher. But.
Apropos of nothing but the way Jesse came prepared for Joker,
that's how I'm going to come with Transformers.
Oh shit, that's going to be interesting.
You know what? I don't think I'm going to take
notes, but I'm not going to comein.
You are going to come in as the how I'm passionate about this

(01:18:58):
film. That's how you I expect you to
come for Transformers. And remind us again, what
episode? You're you're underselling it.
Probably something after 10. I want to lead up to that
because when I say this is goingto be the most passionate
defense of Transformers these people have ever seen, I mean
it. I'm coming.

(01:19:19):
Look forward to it. Yeah, it'll be our number 12.
He's going to say everything he wants to say and leave it at
that. Nothing will be left unsaid.
Exactly. I don't think we have enough
time. I no.
It's going to be like a four hour long podcast.
I hope you're ready. Director's cut part.
One and Part 2. Just like I expect this one to
be a 2 hour long. Podcast, OK.
It might end up, well, an hour 22, Fuck yeah, whatever.

(01:19:43):
But yeah, you really need to give more of your thoughts.
Here I've been trying, but you know what?
I get so entranced just listening to Jesse Speed.
That I oh here, here I will put I will put a timer.
I will shut up for the next 3 minutes.
Go ahead, take, take it away. OK.
Oh my God, I did not need it. I only need one.
I'm just kidding. So.
Just like Arthur flagging Lady Gaga.
Oh. No.

(01:20:04):
I was like I was 15. Seconds.
Those were sex scene of all time.
Oh. If you didn't feel uncomfortable
before that, you definitely do after that, just like her.
But still when I was watching it, I like normally I just when
I'm first watching a movie, I just relax, try to enjoy it, try

(01:20:24):
to get through it and everything.
This one I went over analyzing everything, which is a good that
I didn't remember like I don't any reviews that I did read most
likely didn't. I just remember.
The only thing that I went in knowing is reviews for Mixed,
and that's what else it was a musical.
That's right. So I went in and I saw the

(01:20:46):
title, you know, Madness for two.
So I'm like, OK, this is going to be a really interconnected
story and I'm wondering how they're going to frame it.
Does Joker's madness in fact Lee's madness or does Lee's
madness in fact Joker's madness?And I was wondering how are they
going to put that? That's going to be very
interesting to see. That's what I got just from the

(01:21:06):
title alone. Next, you got the opening scene,
the little animated scene that Iwas like, it threw me off at
first, but I very much enjoyed it.
Not only that, but the scene with the shadow when I was
watching him. Like the shadow has to be lean.
So she's going to be she's goingto be jealous of him and try to
take his spotlight being control.
And at the end of it all, he takes the fall.

(01:21:28):
That's like, it was just like a perfect little metaphor.
That's what I was expecting. I didn't think it was going to
do that, but I'm like, okay, maybe that's where it's going
over analyzing every little bit.And I'm like, I'm enjoying this
so far. And then it just shows Arthur,
where he's as Arthur, he is really uncomfortable, really
pathetic. Like this.
The the scene without his shirt on and his and his movements,

(01:21:51):
they're just so uncomfortable. He's so Bony and like this is
not a strong man. And then just like he lets
himself get pushed around and pushed around and, and it's just
a really rough scene of which isvery different from how the
previous movie ended. But still, like I, I was
wondering what are they, they'regoing to build up to something
that's going to, I wonder what they're going for.

(01:22:12):
And another thing, when I was watching the movies, because I
knew it was a musical, I thoughtto myself, how does them song
itself? Like is it the lyrics of the
song that lead into the moment? Is that why they're choosing
that one song? Is the song in his head or is it
happening outside in reality? And these were just the things
that, and how does that play into the the storyline as well?

(01:22:34):
These were all thoughts that I had going in to this movie and
just seeing what pays off. And unfortunately it was a lot.
The the payoff was a lot different than what I originally
believed. Everything, some of it felt
intentional, some of it felt intentional.
Some of it maybe, maybe it was like I saw think something that

(01:22:54):
wasn't there just from the overall vibe of the movie.
But I really liked the beginningof the movie because it sets you
up for what you think the movie is going to be.
Well said. That is well said.
Because and three minutes actually it.
Also explains why both Jesse andI said the 1st 15 to 20 minutes
we were in and then the movie just overstays its welcome.

(01:23:16):
Yeah, This movie did not need tobe two hours long.
It didn't. It couldn't.
When we, when we talked about like, you know, we didn't bring
back 90 minute films. This film, we do this could.
This movie could have been 90 minutes long and it would have
been better. I think when I started to check
out was at the 140 minute mark, I started to check out like I
cuz like I said, I was over analyzing everything more.

(01:23:38):
So like in the 1st 30 minutes I was over analyzing and like I
was trying to enjoy the ride forthe next hour.
But still just trying to think to myself why did the actor, the
director choose to do this or dothis?
And I started to check out around the courtroom scene.
Not not the like the last, the last last day of the courtroom

(01:23:58):
when he gets his verdict, that'swhen I started to check out.
But that actually reminds me of the what was his name again?
The Yeah, the. The dwarf, yeah.
I thought that was an amazing scene.
It was simply because not, not just because like the scene
itself is amazing, but the defense's entire argument
throughout the whole story is that Joker and Arthur are two

(01:24:23):
different people. They are completely separate.
And that's the entire legal defense.
And Arthur doesn't like it because it's making him look
pathetic. It's making him look weak.
And I, it feels like only after he fired his lawyer, even though
it, it wasn't intentional, that's when he showed that
Arthur and Joker are two different people.

(01:24:44):
Just in a sense now he, he is somuch different than what he
initially showed up. Like these are definitely 2
separate entities and that's notwhat he wanted.
He wanted to show that he was Joker.
But it just felt like, I thought, I thought it was going
to be a huge twist that at the end they the jury says that yes,

(01:25:08):
he is insane, that he he is schizophrenic.
He or he does have these two personalities or Joker isn't the
real him. It's just a personality that
manifested from his trauma. I thought, oh, OK, that's that's
going to be interesting. Just that that's what I thought
the direction of the story was going.
And, you know, unfortunately I was wrong.

(01:25:29):
But it's still that whole scene of Puddles where you just like,
see him trying to be the Joker, but as he's talking to Puddles,
he's hurt by the things he said.And that's when the mask starts
to fall off. I'm I'm glad both of you brought
up the scene with Puddles because that was not only the
best scene in the movie, that was the only time I felt any

(01:25:51):
semblance of emotion in Folio due other than extreme
frustration at how long this movie is.
I felt so bad for Puddles because there is something so
heartbreaking about the way he contextualized the first Joker
film in in many ways, he kind ofgave me the sort of in universe

(01:26:15):
reason for defending that movie.Similar to how Jesse was giving
me the real life defensive Jokerin the sense that when Arthur
tried to tell Puddles, you're fine, I didn't kill you.
And then he tells him, no, I'm not fine, I can't sleep, I'm
scared. I'm this.

(01:26:36):
I'm that. And what makes this so fucking
terrible is that you were the only person that didn't treat me
like I was an outcast, that didn't treat me differently.
And then you go and commit thesehorrible acts right in front of
me, but you think just because you didn't do it to me that that
means it's OK? That was devastating.

(01:26:59):
And then the way that he walks out of there, you can like feel
everybody's eyes on him. That scene is heartbreaking.
It is. That's.
The only time during Foley adieuwhere I was like, Todd Phillips
actually understands something. I I also like the part where
puddles like when he's talking about how he murdered him, you

(01:27:21):
know Joker keeps getting the name wrong and he keeps
correcting him and. He's like, Oh yeah.
He was a jerk, and Ponos's response is, yeah, but he didn't
deserve to die for him. And I was like, OK, that that,
that just like from beginning toend.
Honestly, I, I freaking love that scene.
Just like here's like when he first walks in, like, I don't

(01:27:42):
know if you catch this, but several people just laugh at him
for the sake of it. And he's like, yeah, he's coming
in. And just like, I think that also
just cements the part where he'slike, you were the only one that
was nice to me and just like, you were my friend.
And then you do this. I just just because like, you
know, as experienced people would laugh at him just by
existing. It's like they they make fun of

(01:28:04):
him and they're not kind to him.Yeah.
Yeah. And I just love that from
beginning, from his entrance to his exit, I just love that
entire scene. No, it was it was a brilliant
scene, that. It was like.
No argument, that is the best scene of the whole movie.
But I'm really glad that you brought up Harley Quinn.

(01:28:26):
How she was influencing was Joker manipulating Harley, was
Harley manipulating him? And in traditional Joker Batman
universe, it's always the Joker who is manipulating Harley.
This one flips on his head. It's hardly manipulating Joker.
She's manipulating Arthur Flack because she idolizes the Joker.

(01:28:46):
She wants to date the Joker. She doesn't want to date Arthur
Flack. She loves Joker, she doesn't
love Arthur Flack. And I thought, I thought the I
think the idea is brilliant. I thought the execution was
horrible. But the idea of flipping that on
its head to making where her Harley is not the the victim of

(01:29:08):
of Joker's abuse this time she'sthe one like maybe not abusing
Joker, but she's definitely likemanipulating him towards like
being the Joker. Because when he fires his
lawyer, that's after like, it's her influence.
Yeah, her influence. He stops taking his meds.
He like he he starts to really in like fall into the Joker

(01:29:30):
persona because of her influence.
You stole the words right out ofmy mouth about the whole Harley
Joker dynamic because I've seen so many people complain that
this is not accurate to the comics.
This is clearly a much differentuniverse.
This is not meant to be the Joker right?

(01:29:51):
I think it was really smart to flip that dynamic like you said,
because usually Harley is the one being abused both mentally
and physically in the comics. In Batman the Animated series
and any other iteration of Batman lore that you can find,
it's always the opposite. I really like that they flipped

(01:30:14):
it here, but that kind of workedfor me honestly to to tell you
the truth. Because it is Harley's influence
that pushes him. Two fighters, lawyer.
Two, stop taking his medication 2.
Devolve back into the Joker and try to adopt that as his true
identity. Because honestly, even the God

(01:30:38):
awful scene that you just mentioned, she basically
straight up says I'm not going to fuck you, I'm only going to
fuck the Joker. Right, She puts, she puts
makeup. Yeah, before she fucks him.
Yeah, that's it's messed up. Yeah.
But see, it's stuff like that that tells me Todd Phillips did
know what he was trying to say with the first Joker.

(01:31:01):
He just couldn't do it. Right.
Yeah, I'm like and that are goodideas, but the execution was
just. Yeah, exactly.
That's why I Jesse hits the nailon the head when he said there
is a good movie here. And if anything, that's what
makes it so frustrating. Not the fact that it's so long,

(01:31:21):
not the fact that it doesn't commit to being a musical, not
the fact that it is really mean spirited.
It's that there is something here, they just couldn't put it
together. Or chose not to.
I'm in the camp that they chose not to.
I think they, whoever cut this film up, I'm gonna say Todd, he
loves every time he intentionally like cut the

(01:31:43):
movie. And so it was shown this way.
I think it was intentional. I don't think this was, oh, I'm
gonna this is my vision and people like it.
People like it. People don't.
They don't. I think he intentionally wanted
to like, piss people off. See, I I'm kind of in the
opposite camp. I just don't think Todd Phillips
had the foresight to bring out the best version of this movie.

(01:32:06):
And I will say, I'm sure the movie had an assigned editor,
but the director is so heavily involved in the editing process
that it's the director who tellsthe editor, cut this, we're
going to sequence the film this way.
This is how I want the narrativepresented.
So yeah, you just keep saying Todd Phillips.
And I blame Todd Phillips. I don't think it's intentional,

(01:32:28):
I honestly just don't believe hecould get the best out of his
own movie, similar to how he couldn't get the best out of the
first Joker even though he clearly knew what he wanted to
do. Now I feel like you were going
to say something. No, I'm thinking because I
wanted to say something like I feel like he did, he did seek

(01:32:50):
out to do what he did in the first one, but in the second
one, not so much. Like he clearly had something he
wanted to do, but you did. He wasn't able to.
It was out of. Spite, he wasn't able to hit
that message. Oh, no, I think he hit the
message like in the second movie, he definitely hit the
message that he wanted to do. Like I, I personally, I think
the way he saw how people reacted to the first one, either

(01:33:13):
like the people who analyzed it,people who hated it or whatever.
And he was like, yeah, let me just shit all over that.
I know Dilly disagrees, but that's how I feel about how Todd
Phillips went into making this movie.
That and I think, I think it wasWarner Brothers who wanted this,
this film. They saw a Joker.
Joker made a billion dollars as a radar movie.
So they were like, yo, let's make a sequel.

(01:33:35):
Because the way the Joker ended,it didn't need a sequel.
It didn't. That's why I didn't want to
watch the. 2nd so that's why when so I right away it's like,
yeah, it's this is Warner Brothers.
They they wanted like jump and jump and capitalize off the
Joker's popularity. So let's just give, let's brace
the budget and let's give Todd Phillips and they're like full
complete creative control to like, you know, do it again.

(01:33:58):
And Todd Phillips took the moneyand he was like, you know what,
I'll do it again. But I'm going to say fuck you
and everybody. And how much money did he make?
That no idea. I'm going to push back just a
little bit because I really don't think he's doing it to
spike the audience. I honestly think, to me, it
feels like more of a frustrationthat he feels like his genius

(01:34:23):
was misunderstood. And sure, you could say that's
still directed at the audience somewhat, but I feel like it's
more of a vanity issue from ToddPhillips.
That's what I'm getting from Foley adieu, honestly, is that
it feels like a guy who was veryfrustrated that people didn't
fawn over his first movie The way he thought that it deserved.

(01:34:43):
Because like I said earlier, he clearly wants to be seen as a
auteur filmmaker. He's it's like to me in Folio
Do, he's like constantly railingagainst the criticisms of his
own filmmaking prowess or lack thereof.
That's what Folio do feels like to me.

(01:35:05):
But then I I see scenes like that first interaction with
Arthur and the prison guards when they're out in the yard
early on in the movie, and it seems like they're getting
along. Brendan Gleeson's character, the
guy who plays Mad Eye, Moody andGoblet of Fire.
The Irish guy. Yeah, it seems like they're
cool. And then Arthur kind of like

(01:35:27):
slaps him. On the back like as a.
Buddy, Yeah, like they're just fooling around.
And then the guard like straightup fucking beats the shit out of
him in the back of the head. And I I was sitting there
thinking, what the fuck was thatfor?
No, I think it made it very clear that these are not
Arthur's friends. I think they are making fun of

(01:35:48):
him. He's the butt of the joke.
And most, like, in the opening scene, they're like, hey,
Arthur, go kiss that guy. And Arthur, like, you know, he's
medicated. He just goes and does it.
And they're all laughing at him.And he comes back and he's like,
can I have a cigarette? And they're like, yeah, you know
what? Here you go, Arthur.
And it's not until like he meetsHarley and he starts not taking
his meds, that that's when he starts pushing back towards the

(01:36:10):
guards, when there's a, there's a scene somewhere in the middle
of the film where it's just they're, they're on the yard.
It's him and this other dude just sitting, sitting on the
bench where the guards normally sit.
And the guards are like, what the fuck are you doing here,
Arthur? And like, Arthur has a crony now
who's like, we do what the fuck we want or some shit like that.
And it's like we're seeing like now, Arthur's starting to push

(01:36:33):
back. He's all his meds In the
beginning, he's very subdued. He does whatever the guards want
him to do. But after Harley's influence, he
starts doing his own thing. And they don't like that.
They especially don't like that when he, when he calls them out
on and then when he fires his lawyer, puts on the Joker
makeup, represents himself. They especially don't like that

(01:36:54):
he's hogging up all the spotlight and talking shit.
And that leads to, honestly, I fucking hate this scene so much.
But after that, like the he goesback to Arkham Asylum, the
guards take up all his makeup, beat the shit out of him.
And I can't believe like Caster,when we were talking about this,
you didn't catch this, but they do sexually abuse them.

(01:37:16):
And it's just like, why did you have to show that?
This film did not need that? Just like this film didn't need
to show Joker being like A22 pump chump.
You know, like they didn't need to show that, but it did.
Why 'cause they want they, I saythey cause Todd Phillips wanted

(01:37:37):
to like break, break down the character of Arthur.
People idolized him in the firstmovie.
He really wanted to show you of how much of a fucking loser he
was in this movie. See OK.
And I have a that's my passion speaking.
Sorry, because of Advil. I was going to say that that's
my passion speaking profile. I have a a big issue with that

(01:37:59):
that scene too, where it's heavily implied that they
sexually assault him. And the reason I say that is
because just before, during one of the courtroom scenes, they
make it explicitly clear that Arthur was sexually abused as a
child. And then they follow that up
with the scene where he is sexually assaulted by the guards

(01:38:22):
just because he called them fat or something.
Yeah, like all the guards to make fun of me and blah blah,
blah. Like he didn't.
I mean, yeah, they were slighted, but they took like.
They were bullies. Yeah, they were bullies.
But the fact that the movie showed that just felt
needlessly. Cruel.
Yes. Not just to Arthur, but that's
why I say this movie is mean spirited because I, I really

(01:38:46):
don't understand why that was inthere.
Like it does nothing for the film, It doesn't, it doesn't add
anything. I mean, we already know that
Arthur's life is shit. We already know he's not like
the the guards bullying him and shit.
So it's you didn't have to show this, but they did.
You didn't even show Arty's death.
And, and I agree with you that it's obvious the guards, they're

(01:39:07):
not his friends. But even that first interaction
that I referenced a few minutes ago where Arthur kind of slaps
him and then he just straight upshoves, like, shoves his head
down violently, I felt like thatwas unnecessary.
But the fact that they included this whole essay scene was just.
I have no idea why that was in here.

(01:39:30):
Yeah, at all. They they could have cut that
part out, honestly. Yeah, it would not have changed
the tone of they. They would not change the tone
of the movie. Put that in that on he still.
Would have been a loser. Yes, yeah, I guess like I guess
it just made him out to be a bigger loser, but it's like it's
just sad. It it felt so unnecessary.

(01:39:51):
It felt just if people were complaining that the first Joker
was like being an edge Lord or whatever, this movie was trying
to be edgy with that. Like I, I, I, I hated that.
Don't even get me started on it.Like don't even get me started
on the ending the way the movie.Ends Oh my God, before if, if
we're going to get to that, I just want to say something real

(01:40:14):
quick is that I, I wrote this inmy notes.
I don't know if you guys have seen it.
I said this movie doesn't committo being a musical and the
musical numbers don't feel like real musical numbers.
They feel more like abstractions.
And if I had to compare it to something, I would compare it to
Chicago. That's kind of the musical that

(01:40:35):
it reminds. Musical that it reminds me the
most of. Quote.
Quote. Yeah, that's.
I don't know, I thought I thought that was a really good
comparison when I wrote it down in my notes.
But I know someone's going to listen to this and think he's a
fucking idiot. That's fine.
So I feel like we all watch. Hey man, everyone is entitled to

(01:40:56):
their opinion, just get on the mic and say it.
It's all about perspective guys,remember that.
The ending. The ending.
OK, the ending. I'm, I'm just gonna come out and
say this. I fucking despise everything
about the ending. Because mostly it's the fact
that the guy that kills Arthur carves scars into his face with

(01:41:20):
a knife. I am.
Implying that that is Heath Ledger's Joker.
And to me that is the single biggest case where I can see the
argument Jesse is making. Because when I saw that scene
all I could think was, oh fuck me I guess.
That's what he's telling you. Like, OK, do you think that was

(01:41:43):
a Warner Perez decision or a Todd Phillips decision?
That was. 100% of Todd Phillips decision.
Nobody else was making that choice.
Yep. Again, he's telling you to fuck
off. Like this is very strange.
Yeah, I I don't that scene just if this movie was already

(01:42:04):
shitting on everything that I loved this, that final scene, it
was just like fucking pissing onmy grave because what did it add
to the story? Nothing.
It was just a stupid little tie in to The Dark Knight and
arguably a better film than thisone.
You're kind of winning me over again, bro.
I'm not gonna be honest. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna lie to

(01:42:26):
you. You're kind of winning me over
again. Like I haven't even mentioned
that like just the way that liketo circle back a little bit or
to go back a little bit before the ending, just the final Joker
scene when he's in the courtroomgiving his like final defense
and he basically like, bro, I, Iwatched that scene.
You see Joker and the blackout. I was there.

(01:42:47):
I was like, you know what the make up like his suit.
Oh man, he's going to he's goingto like say like, just like how
he said to me on the Murray show, like this big spiel or
whatever. I was fully expecting that like
to be his defense bro and they just they they undo everything
in the first film. Joker breaks down back to Arthur

(01:43:10):
Fleck says I'm not Joker wipes the makeup Harley Quinn falls
out of love with him. It's it's a shit she.
Just straight up pieces out. Yeah, she leaves like then like,
you know, like the the bomb explosion, whatever people are
like the whole Harvey Dent Easter egg, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah. Joker runs off and or now, now

(01:43:32):
it's not even Joker anymore. It's back to Arthur.
Arthur runs off, finds Harley Quinn and she's like, yeah, no,
I'm not really into you anymore.And like, I don't know.
I, I just that I felt like that scene and like everything that
happened that followed after it just undid everything that this
movie was trying to do and what the first one did.

(01:43:54):
It sounds to me like this is your last Jedi.
Yes. Because that that movie, just
the way that the Star Wars fans talk about it, they act like it
just pissed on their grandmother's grave.
It did. So this sounds to me like that's
the equivalent for you. Yep.

(01:44:15):
Except I think you actually havean argument unlike the Star Wars
fans like. I just, I really love this film
and so I, and so now I want to transition into something else
or into a question. More, more, more discussion
actually. How do you feel about fan cuts
or fan editing? When like a fan takes a movie,

(01:44:39):
Blu-ray or whatever, it just cuts it up into like their
version of the film. I'm gonna have to be the bad guy
here. Come on, I'm bad guy.
I've never watched any fan cuts.Admittedly not because I don't
think they can be good, but because I think that if the
director was given complete creative freedom to make the

(01:45:02):
film that they want to make, that is the film that was
intended to be seen. Regardless of whether or not you
agree with the film makers intentions or the message or
anything that they've tried to say in the movie, that is still
ultimately the director's movie.I'm not supportive of butchering

(01:45:25):
somebody's work just because youcan.
And I say that as someone who, when I watched, I know we
brought this up a few times, theSnyder Cut.
One of the things that really struck me when I watched it for
the first time was I don't know why Warner Brothers was afraid

(01:45:47):
to release this. Sure, audiences would not have
sat through a four hour Justice League, but I think there was a
good three hour Justice League movie in there that they could
have cut up, put in the theatersand say we'll put the four hour
1 on Blu-ray, right. It's tough.
It's a tough line to walk because I I am somebody who

(01:46:09):
always advocates for the director's vision, even if I
think it's a disaster. But at the same time, I I would
be lying if I said I didn't watch certain movies and say
there's something here or this in the example of the Snyder
Cut, there is a good three hour movie in here that I think
people would have been largely receptive to.

(01:46:31):
See, I prior to this film, I would have taken the exact same
position. I think when like the way that a
director decides to cut and edittheir film, that's their
intended vision. So we as the audience, we should
take their vision and then interpret it however we want to
see without having to like cut it up and shit like that.

(01:46:54):
I was, I was with you until I saw this film.
But I remember the day after this film, like after I had
watched it in theaters, I was like, there's a good movie in
here. When this movie comes out on
Blu-ray or streaming, I'm going to get it and I'm going to cut
it up myself because I do think there is a good movie in here.

(01:47:15):
Life happened. I never ended up doing that.
But prior to watch the leading up to this episode, I was like,
no, let me, let me, let me like try to find one because by this
point the movie's already out and like streaming Blu-ray so
people have access to this film.I found a fan cut on Reddit.

(01:47:35):
Where they they removed like 30 minutes of the film.
So now instead of the film being2 hours and 17 minutes, it's now
one hour and 48 minutes. That sounds like the perfect.
And it's so much better in my view.
Like I on Monday, this Monday I watched Joker one, loved it.

(01:47:56):
Tuesday I was like, I'm going towatch the second one in
preparation for this pod. Well, I was I was I was off the
high of the first movie where I I enjoyed it so much.
Do I really want to do this to myself again and watch a movie
that I know there's a good moviein here, but I'm going to
intentionally watch Todd Phillips's version.

(01:48:16):
I said. I said fuck that.
I found I found a different cut.It was a fan cut.
Most of the problems that we have this fan cut addressed.
So I'm just going to go over like some of the things it did,
it cut out Arthur Flex's singing, so now only the Joker
sings. So there's no Arthur Fleck

(01:48:37):
singing, it's all Joker. Which now, now that there's less
Joaquin Phoenix singing scenes, it highlights the Lady Gaga
singing scenes because those arestill there.
Those weren't cut. So now they're more prevalent,
which I thought was brilliant because it doesn't change the
songs. It's still a jukebox musical,
but at least now Lady Gaga is allowed to shine a little bit

(01:48:59):
brighter in this film. They they cut out the sex scene.
They do have like they do have that, the scene where they make
out and shit, but that's the, and it ends right there.
So there's no sex scene there. They, they take out the sexual
abuse scene like they, they, theguards still beat him up, but
they don't show the scene where they're dragging him like with

(01:49:19):
the bruises around his thigh. They don't show that.
So they, there are scenes that they cut out that makes this
film so much better. And this editor, they even like
changed the ending. So rather than like the ending
that we got with the the the Heath Ledger Joker
impersonation, the movie ends where the where the the

(01:49:39):
courtroom is blown up. It never shows Joker's his
testimonial. So it never shows them like
unmasking and like going back toArthur.
So he's still Joker in the context of the film.
It shows him escaping and then it shows him meeting Harley
Quinn on top of the stairs. And then it transitions into a
musical. Like they one of the musicals,

(01:50:00):
they took it out out of context or out of the scene and they put
it at the end. So the movie ends with like
Joker and Harley escaping and having this shared madness.
It doesn't end with, oh, Harley was the manipulator.
It ends like how the movie is described.
Folia do a dance of madness. And I was fucking there.

(01:50:21):
I watched it and I was like, yo,this is what I'm going to talk
about. This is how the film should have
been cut up. There is a good film in here.
I found it. Yes, some some cuts are like
they're hard cuts because there's no deleted scenes.
Some transitions are a little weird, but the essence of the
film, the spirit of the film of what it should have been or what

(01:50:43):
it could have been is there. And so now I'm taking this
position where like, hey, maybe we just got to say fuck the
directors, let the fans do a little like, you know, work,
work a little magic. Because I want to bring up a, a
second example. The Hobbit trilogy.
Oh, The Hobbit trilogy. If, if if The Hobbit is one

(01:51:03):
book. I know.
It did not have to be made into a trilogy.
If I remember correctly, you read the book in preparation for
the movies. That was from Mickey 17, not for
the holidays. It was originally supposed to be
just two movies, but then because Warner Brothers at that
time, they'd already own New Line Cinema because Lord of the

(01:51:26):
Rings was so successful, they forced Peter Jackson to make it
a trilogy because they just wanted more money.
And so there's a bunch of like added scenes that are not in the
book. Point being, so let's.
Get the second movie. Yeah, so point.
I like the second one but but I should have been part of the
first one. But point being, there are fan
cuts out there of The Hobbit where they they take all three

(01:51:49):
movies, cut out the unnecessary shit and just keep it like 1
stream like it's a long movie. Sure, 3 or 4 hour long movie.
But if you watch the Lord of therings, you're you're kind of
expecting a long movie. So I I I've seen like a cut
looking. Forward to.
It I've seen a couple few like the hobby of fan cuts where I'm
like this, I like this, like I like where they cut out all the

(01:52:12):
fluff and it's like, yeah, here's the here's just like
here's the here's the version that follows the book more
accurately. I think I can get on board.
No, I feel you. Specifically with The Hobbit,
because I really can't blame that on Peter Jackson.
This. I don't think that's even

(01:52:32):
remotely close to what happened with Todd Phillips and Foley.
Do Oh no, this is Peter Jackson.Run into the ground during those
movies. I'm not going to blame him and I
don't think that. It's it's.
Cool to blame butcher his Hobbitmovies even though I don't
really like them I haven't watched.
I love the first one. The first one is my favorite

(01:52:54):
one. The.
The first one is the best. It is just kind of by default.
Yeah, I, I, I was going to say Ihaven't watched them in a while,
but that's not true. I watched the first one last
year. The.
Only thing I remember about the third one was the war scenes.
Yeah. Yeah, I remember that in the
ridiculous. CGI.
Dwarf death scene. Which one there were?

(01:53:18):
I forgot I forget the name whereEvangeline Lily's.
Oh, Keely. Character.
Keely dies. Yeah, why?
Why does it hurt so much? Because it was real.
Bro, that was so crazy. I was like, yo, I like that
scene. You were only you only knew him
for like a week. Yeah.
What do you? Mean because it was real.

(01:53:38):
And look at Lego lasso right there, especially that.
But I love Legolas, but he didn't need to be in that film.
He did not, no. He was not in the original
Hobbit. He didn't need to be.
No, I was. I was thinking to myself, I was
like, because his dad's there, but you didn't have to say that
it was his dad for the story. But the reason why I brought The
Hobbit was just because that's another example where like fans

(01:54:01):
will cut up a film and like try to reduce it or try to make a
like a coherent film in here, because I don't think The Hobbit
needed to be a trilogy and I love The Hobbit.
I think I love The Hobbit more than Lord of the Rings.
Even though, even though, let mefinish, let me finish, even
though Lord of the Rings, it's ano, I'm talking about the movies
like Lord of the rings, Lord of the Rings is done better.

(01:54:23):
The it's, it's shot better, the acting is better.
Everything about Lord of the Rings is better than The Hobbit.
That being said, I just happenedto, I think maybe just because
when Lord of the rings came out,I was a little kid.
So watching them, they didn't hit me or anything when I
watched The Hobbit in 2013. Hitman.
And maybe that's just me becauseI'm partial to Martin Freeman,

(01:54:44):
but I thoroughly enjoyed The Hobbit.
I've ever seen you in so much pain.
No, listen, I'm not saying that The Hobbit is better than Lord
of the Rings. I'm just saying personally I
enjoyed those that trilogy more than Lord of the Rings.
Not to say I don't enjoy Lord ofthe Rings, but.
Oh man, that's a hot take. I don't know what else to say.

(01:55:06):
I said it. I'm a stand on business.
The Lord of the Rings is the greatest trilogy in cinematic
history. If you disagree, you're plain
wrong. Don't even come at me with that
weak bullshit. That's the Star Wars original
trilogy. A New Hope?
Sure you can convince yourself that it invented blockbusters.

(01:55:26):
Jaws did that. Empire Strikes Back, whatever.
Return of the Jedi, mediocre. Miss me with that garbage
trilogy. The Dark Knight trilogy?
Don't even get me started. Power washed out of existence by
The Batman. Lord of the Rings is the only
trilogy where every single movieis a 10 out of 10.
Somebody could tell me their favorite movie is The 2 Towers

(01:55:47):
and I would look at them and sayI completely understand.
Someone could tell me their favorite is Return of the King.
I would look at them and say I completely understand.
It is. Perfect.
Perfect in every sense of the word.
I will say we were young when The Lord of the Rings came out,
so I don't think it was quite asemotionally resonant for me as
something like Harry Potter. I think as a kid I definitely

(01:56:10):
enjoyed Harry Potter more, but when I grew up, grew up when I
got to around. Very much taller.
Maybe when I grew up and I watched Lord of the Rings maybe
like 19 through like the age of 22, I was in disbelief.
I watch Fellowship of the Ring and I get mad at how good that

(01:56:34):
movie is because we will never see anything like that again.
And it's Lord of the Rings is sofucking perfect.
It is, is, in my opinion, the best, best, best example of
healthy masculinity in the worldthat constantly wants to talk

(01:56:54):
about what that looks like. Aragorn, That's what it looks
like. Damn.
If you agree or disagree with Dylan's opinion.
Leave a comment. Yeah, or if there's like the
audacity of Dylan and you just want to fight him in the comment
sections, go for it as well. If we even have comment
sections, remember that's Nightfall film.
You can also comment under previously already uploaded

(01:57:18):
videos that he's done. Just like randomly attack you.
It's like made from a year ago. Give it a comment from today.
It's like it'll stand out amongst the other comments.
So, Dylan, your position is thatthe Lord of the Rings trilogy is
better than the critically acclaimed Todd Phillips Hangover
trilogy? That is Exactly.
What I'm saying that's, that's alittle ironic, I mean,

(01:57:43):
considering I'm sitting next to the biggest.
Todd Phillips, hater on the Planet No.
I'm joking. Hangover only had one.
I know, I know. I just think it's funny that you
were able to so eloquently and passionately defend the first
joker, yet at every turn you would put down Todd Phillips.

(01:58:05):
I think that is an incredibly unique tactic and and you pulled
it off. Like I said.
You're convincing me to go in the Joker with fresh eyes.
And honestly one thing I I forgot to bring up before we got
on this tangent, even though I'mperfectly fine talking about
Lord of the Rings anytime. When you said Arthur was giving

(01:58:27):
in to Harley's manipulation, that just kind of circles back
to how much he wants to be lovedbecause he never got it from his
parents. Yep, that's that's, that's sad.
Yep, but. See.
And so it's like, it's there. It's like the brilliant like
there's a good movie in there because I the fan cut I
described OK, it doesn't it doesn't have Harley be the

(01:58:47):
manipulator. It has both of them being the
like they're both in this madness because it the the the
fan cut it cuts out the scene where it's revealed that Harley
Quinn is actually like a rich girl lives in a rich
neighborhood, blah, blah, blah. It cuts that out.
So it it makes us truly believe that she was sent to here her
parents, Senator Arkham, like she actually is crazy.

(01:59:07):
So I think if Todd Phillips did it right, he he could have done
that part right. He could have done like have
Harley be the manipulator, have her like manipulate Arthur into
thinking that he's, she is someone that loves him for who
he is. I would have been I I was on
board. With that, to be the shadow that

(01:59:29):
overtakes him. Well, like when you brought that
up in the beginning, I, I do think the, like the opening
cartoon sequence, I think the shadow is supposed to represent
Joker. Like the whole defense for the
cases. There's two personalities, Joker
and Arthur. I think the shadow is Joker,
not, not Harley Quinn Quinn, butI went to, when you say it was
Harley, I was like, you know what, like maybe I that that's a

(01:59:50):
great, that's a great interpretation.
But I, I, I do think it was supposed to represent Joker
because that, that's what the whole defense is that, oh,
there's two personalities, there's Joker and Arthur Fleck.
But yeah man, like I loved the first film, hated what they did
to the second one, but I was able to find my love for it

(02:00:10):
again through the power. Of fan cuts.
Of fan cuts, even if I don't necessarily think that it's for
every film. Not every film deserves to be
cut up and interpreted differently.
But for this specific film? Fuck yeah.
It just, it needed it because this film, the way it is by
itself, it in it the way it is by itself.

(02:00:32):
Like personally, I think it's a four out of 10 because there is
enough like the the positives that raise it to a four is the
music, the shots, the colors, the set pieces, the the Gary
puddle scene. And like other scenes like that.
Like there are good, there are good scenes in this movie.
It's just the way that it was cut up that's that's bad.

(02:00:53):
That makes it a four out of 10 with the fan cut.
I'm I'm willing to give it a 7, seven or eight out of 10 if
Joker won to me personally with a 10 out of 10.
Folia do if done right, could have been like an 8 or a nine
out of 10 to me. Wow.
That is quite. That's a hell of an endorsement,

(02:01:15):
to say the least. Yeah, fan fictions.
You don't need a reason to writeyour own.
I. Sometimes you just need to do
it, yeah. I can sympathize with you.
I, I think everybody is sort of very passionate in terms of
their hate to at least one thingthroughout the course of their
entire life. And as you're explaining this,

(02:01:40):
all I can think is Jesse went through what I had to go through
with The Last of Us Part 2. That's exactly what it sounds
like to me. Yeah, from everything that
you've said about it, that does sound exactly like what Jesse
was bringing up. Hey, man, listen like you're

(02:02:02):
passionate about something. You're passionate about
something. I think it was more along the
lines of the creation surpasses the creator.
Damn, that's deep you. Said that in the first opening.
No, that's what Dylan was saying.
I. I agree with you though, because
I think The Last of Us, the first one, is the perfect

(02:02:25):
example of a a piece of media that is much greater than the
sum of its parts. You're talking about the season
1 or are you talking about the game I'm.
Talking about the game, OK, and I think The Last of Us Part 2 is
the quintessential example of a piece of media that is decidedly
worse than the sum of its parts.I wouldn't know.

(02:02:45):
I need to the. Last of Us is a really simple
story, and I mean, you figured it out.
You figured out what the whole dynamic was.
Yeah, we were. Dylan made me play that game
for, for context sakes. He made me play.
And as we were playing it, we were like recording ourselves.
I'm recording the gameplay and everything and making comments

(02:03:07):
about it. And I think we went off for a
good. Good commentary, yeah.
It was very good commentary where I apparently I made some
predictions that were spot on. I said like the voice acting is
is amazing in that game. It they just blew me out of the
blew me out of the water for that one.
It was really good. He was surprised that a lot of

(02:03:28):
things, but we anyways, we got to the two hour mark, we paused,
we re listened. Turns out we forgot the audio
for that. That's a full responsibility.
So we just had gameplay with no sound, not even game.
Sound. Damn.

(02:03:50):
No, the game audio's there. OK.
Well, still, it was pretty bad. It was pretty bad.
We were laughing it off, but inside we died a little.
I can't imagine I did. And we were supposed to continue
that, but we never did. The point is, what I'm trying to
make is The Last of Us is a simple story, but it manages to
transcend the whole apocalyptic survivor tale because of the

(02:04:16):
characters, because of the themes, and because of the way
the gameplay works in tandem with all of those things.
And I think The Last of Us too has the basically exact opposite
problem where the gameplay is soconflicting with the story and
the themes and then the intentions of the writers are

(02:04:40):
just completely muddled by the very half baked structural and
narrative decisions that are made in that game.
But I'm I'm getting so off track.
That will be for another episodewhere they're definitely going
to have to do it. The Last of Us Part 1, Part 2
maybe? So look forward to that.
Yeah, just like you should. Look forward to a Lord of the
Rings and hobby episode because I think we, I think we can

(02:05:02):
expand on that a little bit more.
Oh, I have no doubt we can. That was such a very interesting
take from you to say that these.Yeah, that's what I do give
interesting takes. And then the Michael Bay.
Episode. Oh bro yeah that will probably
come out first. It's going to be the most fun,
I'm sure, but no actually, because we do need to prepare
for. That I promise I'm going to
deliver everyone. The way that I prepared for this

(02:05:25):
one, Dylan's going to be prepared for the Michael Bay.
Yeah, he's been prepared. For years, yeah, as his sole
audience member. Actually, not sole.
I'm pretty sure his parents haveheard it too.
Regarding his argument for that he wants to make.
I know it by heart. I can repeat it backward for.
But I converted you, that's my thing.
We'll go over that when that episode comes down, but it's

(02:05:47):
like, he has told me it so many times.
I'm just going to probably listen that entire episode just
because I'm like, it's just going to be like here comes #36
that's funny. So I guess for closing thoughts
regarding Joker, yeah, like thiswhole Joker discussion, I

(02:06:08):
obviously everyone listening, I love the first one.
The second one I had issues with, but I did think there was
a solid movie in there and I'm happy at least for me to say
that I did find it. So personally, like the whole
Joker saga, I'm happy now, like those two films, like the second
film, it's been redeemed in my eyes.

(02:06:30):
But yeah, that's how you feel about like both Jokers.
I loved the first one. I I enjoyed it for what it was
and I liked what the second one tried to do in terms of being a
courtroom drama musical. I think prior, like we said in
the previous episode, we need more original films.
That was an original. Film not original idea.

(02:06:50):
Original idea, yes. It just Todd Phillips just need
to stand on business. If you're going to make a
fucking musical, make a fucking musical and not a jukebox
musical. That's all I'm going to say.
And well, I'll say that you talked me into watching this fan
cut. You have to read their show me.
Bro, I got you. And I watch it just just to see

(02:07:11):
what you mean by it's a better film.
Yes, from that fan. The fan cut as composed to the
actual film. For sure.
Yeah. My closing thoughts are
obviously I wasn't too high on the original Joker.
I think it is a very loosely connected film that is basically
only held together by Joaquin Phoenix's performance.

(02:07:35):
But I'm just, again, I'm going to say Jesse came prepared with
the arguments, with the passion.He is on the verge of converting
me depending on how this rewatchgoes.
And I know this wasn't a debate but I just straight up got my
ass kicked guys. We, we were in strong
disagreement here but he came prepared.

(02:07:57):
So do your homework kids. That's your lesson, life lesson
for the day there. You go when you watch a film,
just try to like watch it with your own interpretation and
thoughts and do actually try to think about it.
Don't just say watch a film and be like, hey, I like thinking.
It touched on mental health. How did it touch on mental
health for you? And I'm not going to speak on it

(02:08:17):
more because then I I could talkfor an hour.
But when you watch a film, I think it's a great idea or way
to what? I'm sorry.
When you watch a film, it's a great idea to have an open mind
and be ready to think criticallyabout the film.
I can't support that 100%. Fuck. 13 reasons why.

(02:08:39):
So you want to lead us out? I don't know the outro.
This is Jesse's episode, so it should be Jesse who beats us
out. All right, well, thank you
everyone who sat sat by or droveby or however you live, however
you're consuming this episode. Thank you for listening to us.
Just talk about why these films deserve to have like a

(02:08:59):
discussion around them. Below the Line podcast is
brought to you, the nobodies in Hollywood, Dylan, Jesse, Castor.
We're all here to share our thoughts.
So now let us know what you guysthink.
Leave a comment, throw some likes.
Just let us know how we did thisepisode because I honestly think
that we brought it and I would like to hear the feedback.

(02:09:20):
I'm biased, but Jesse brought it, sorry.
But hopefully the even even if you do, whether you were
converted or not by Jesse's take, maybe you still agree with
Dylan or you're not, but it depends.
Why don't you just give you a perspective on what you think or
about the movie and see if that can influence us, like Jesse's

(02:09:41):
opinion on the movie influence Dylan.
It's like we're it's always a good idea to have an open mind
and just look at other people's perspective because that could
lead you to seeing something that you never saw before and
maybe even see something that they never saw before.
I will second that and I really enjoyed this conversation.
Personally, I thought it was excellent and I think you see in

(02:10:04):
real time I am not stuck in my own echo chamber because Jesse
is converting me. I think this was a a worthwhile
episode and I completely agree that This is why we're doing
this because movies do deserve these real in depth discussions,
not just being called peek or trash on TikTok.

(02:10:28):
Thank you for listening. Everybody subscribe to the
YouTube channel at Nightfall Films.
I know Cass took care of that for us about four times, but I'm
just gonna just gonna let it simmer one more.
Follow the TikTok at Nightfall Films as well.
And of course, the best and mosteffective way to support the
show is to follow us on Spotify.And if you haven't already, vote

(02:10:49):
in the poll in the previous episode because I did put that
up. What sounds more fun, watching
horror films or watching 3 hour black and white foreign films?
Right now you're winning. Thank.
You. Thank you for everyone who is
voting with me, I very much appreciate it.
I have so many good ideas for horror films.

(02:11:14):
All right, everybody, thank you.I'm going to run through the
show acknowledgements real quickfor everybody.
Thank you to Levi for composing our intro music.
Thank you to Jesse for the artwork, which at this point I
think we're going to have to update it.
Yeah. Why is that?
Oh, wait, because he's. Here to say thank you to Jesse
for making the most impassioned argument for Joker I've ever

(02:11:37):
seen. Peace plants.
Namaste.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Unpacking Joker: Folie à Deux

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Unpacking Joker: Folie à Deux

Stuff You Should Know