October 30, 2020 • 30 mins
Halloween has its pantheon of monsters – ghouls, ghosts, werewolves, and vampires, to name a few. But what about the monsters who live among us? Sure, sometimes evil arrives wearing a grotesque mask – but, other times, it can appear downright mundane. Whatever shape evil takes, those who dare to trust often never see it coming. Tonight, we’ll share two tales of when innocence and evil meet.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Jenna Sullivan and I'm Jen Lee.
And we'd like to welcome you tobeneath your bed, a podcast
where we drag out all thosefears that lurk beneath our beds
from the paranormal to truecrime, to the simply strange
along the way, we'll be drinkingcocktails and sharing stories
from our Appalachianupbringings.
Halloween has its Pantheon ofmonsters goals, ghosts,
(00:23):
werewolves, and vampires to namea few.
But what about the monsters wholive among us?
Sure.
Sometimes evil arrives wearing agrotesque mask, but other times
it can appear downright mundane,whatever shape evil takes.
Those who dare to trust oftennever see it coming.
Jen.
(00:43):
Hey Jen, how are you doingtonight?
I am doing okay.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
I'm looking forward toHalloween.
So am I, I love Halloween.
It's probably, well, I mean, Ilike Christmas, but Halloween is
right up there for me.
I love it.
Christmas is my favorite as youknow, but I do love Halloween
too.
I don't get anytrick-or-treaters but still love
it.
What are you planning to do onHalloween night?
(01:04):
Um, we're not going to doanything.
We're just gonna sit here andwait for no one to show up t o,
to eat our candy.
Wait for the ghostly.
R appings on your window.
W hen y ou're a window pane, we,you know, we give the good out,
like, you know, re ceive p eanutbutter cups.
I guess that's probably not thegreatest thing to g ive out.
Some people have peanutallergies.
Now le t m e t hink about it.
So maybe it's not so good, butbasically the chocolate and not
(01:27):
the stuff that you would getsome times w here we w ould
trick or treat.
Yeah.
Well the worst was like the lion's club candy.
Do you remember that peoplewould buy like five pound bags
from the l ions club?
And it was like these, some wereorange and some were black.
It was like this really nastytaffy.
And I think that was, that wasup there with like some of the
worst what's the li on's c lubonly have no idea what that's I
(01:50):
do n't k n ow.
I think they're activeeverywhere, but it's kind of, I
think it's men ki nd o f l i kedt he, I li ked t he elk lodge,
like the elk lodge.
Yeah.
And I think th eir p articularcharity is they ra ised m oney
for the blind.
So I think they just sit aroundand get loaded like they do at
the Elk s lo dge.
Like I did, like I did thisweekend.
(02:11):
Yeah.
You shut it down this weekend.
So I'm not going to be drinkingtonight, boys and girls.
Um, yeah, I am off the hooch forthe foreseeable future.
It's going to, I was, yeah, Iwas not, well, I was not, well,
I didn't realize she did theshots of vodka.
He did.
I just, the champagne, I sort ofsurreptitiously poured them into
(02:33):
my champagne glass and I downedit and it was raspberry and it
was like, Oh my God, it's like araspberry that's on fire going
down.
My gullet is bad.
I'm paying for it.
Now.
It happens to the best of us.
It does.
It does.
But you controlled yourselfpretty well.
Cause we, I think we don't getto see each other that often.
(02:54):
So when we do, it's like, Ithink I, I don't know.
I guess I thought like I had toreally tie one on or something.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
We were doing this from afar again.
We were out on your front porch.
So we were social distance.
Yep.
Tonight I'm having, what'scalled a headless horseman.
Oh, that's cool.
Yeah.
I'd never heard of it before,but you know, I've been
searching for new cocktails allthe time.
Try to change it up here.
So it has vodka.
She probably don't want to hearthat Angostura bitters and
(03:24):
ginger rail with a it'sgarnished with a it's garnished
with an orange, orange slice
Speaker 1 (03:31):
orange J eanette.
Well, that would kind of looklike the pumpkin head on K
nickerbocker cream, right?
Or a quad core.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
What is it from the nightmare before Christmas?
Jack Love
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Jack Skellington.
You know, I just saw that movie.
U m, I saw most of it maybeabout a week or two ago.
It is ch arming.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Oh, I'm speaking of movies I saw, I actually saw, or
we saw barrette
Speaker 1 (03:55):
For the weekend.
We saw it too.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It's crazy.
I don't even know what to sayabout it.
It's hard to even watch, but youcan't turn away
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Glee and you feel a little guilty in parts.
Like there were parts where Ifeel like, Oh my God, I, as a
moral person, I can't laugh atit.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah.
I think the, the part that Ilike the best, which I'm ashamed
to admit is when they went tothe debutante ball.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
That was my favorite part too.
It was so wrong.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
It was so wrong.
I don't know when.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
So anyway, well it's going to be a good weekend.
Halloween is coming up and yeah,I'm looking forward to just like
watching scary movies and eatinglots of sugar, all that good
stuff.
So tonight to get everybody inthe mood for Halloween, we are
going to be telling a Halloweentheme story, or at least a story
(04:55):
that's set right around here.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's a story about monsters, but human monsters.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So with that, let's get started.
So this takes place in theseventies, the decade of our
conceptions, I guess, and theheyday of our childhoods.
Although I feel like theeighties was the heyday of my
childhood too, but the year is1974 and it's Halloween night.
So if you can remember back whenyou were a kid, I can remember
this really vividly, you know,you suffer through the school
(05:23):
day, all day, just like longingfor the bell to ring.
So you can go home like gobbledown your dinner and then put on
your costume and get the hellout of that house and, you know,
get as much candy as possible.
And I feel like there, there wasan electric energy.
You pass the same houses andtrees and cars and stuff every
day.
But it was different onHalloween night.
It just felt different.
(05:45):
You're right.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You are so right.
You know, you could be outlegitimately with your parents'
permission.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Like even by the time we were kids, at least younger
kids, like I would say most ofthe, of the seventies, I feel
like they're kind of worn a lotof tricks left in Halloween.
I remember my, my mom, she waslike, you know, you will not go
out without supervision.
She probably did that till I was16, but you know, she had to go
with me.
She had to know whose house wewere going to.
I don't know if your parentswere like that, but they were,
(06:13):
mine were like reallyprotective.
And I think that was kind of atheme in the seventies where
kids earlier, like in earlierdecades, it would be kind of a
free for all.
But by the time we were kids,like, I feel like that was
changing.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I think you're right.
My parents let me, when I got tobe a little bit older to go out
with my neighbors, my friends.
But other than that, beforethat, no, there's no way they
would allow that.
And we were only allowed to go.
We didn't have a block.
It was actually the shape of ahorseshoe.
So we were
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Like, so that was the only place you could go.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I mean, it was just kind of lazy trick-or-treating
and probably my parents werelike, get the outta here.
I don't want to go.
I know my dad certainly wantedno part of it.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
So I mean, it's interesting.
It must've been a chore, Iguess, for parents, but you
know, they worked all day andthey come home and their kids
are like raring to go, but itwas just so magical as a child.
I just have the fondest memoriesof it
Speaker 2 (07:01):
When my daughter, when she was maybe around two
and we put the kids instrollers, I mean i n the cool
moms and we would actually meetat another mom's house for
drinks.
And then we put our drinks in acontainer and then we put it on,
y ou k now, one of th ose really big, u h, b aby strollers
or di fferent t h at y ou couldrun with one of those.
(07:22):
So we would walk around likethat, like a jog.
I don't think all of us
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Or something.
I think if I had been a mother,I would want to hang with you
guys.
You guys sound like you werecool
Speaker 2 (07:30):
To think of ourselves as the cool moms, but maybe it
was really, uh, an addictionissue.
But anyway,
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Alcoholic, mumps, think back in the, um, in the
seventies, I, I don't knowexactly when this, this rumor
started, but you started hearingstories of candy being tampered
with.
And I vividly recall my mom andmy aunt, my grandmother, who
was, so over-protective talkingabout that, like, don't accept
an Apple.
It could have a razorblade init.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
The Apple one, the Apple was like the most
pervasive, sinister story.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
is going to give an Apple, like if I got an Apple,
I'd be like, I don't want this.
I m ean, I don't want fruit.
You got t he w rong kid.
I mean, I can remember gettingthose little packs of raisins
and thinking, what the hell is this?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah.
So anyway, I just feel like witha razor blade story with the
apples, it also later on, youknow, apply to just regular
candy as well.
Cause we had to pour ours out onthe floor and we had to go
through it.
Our parents had to look throughit before
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Same here.
Absolutely.
I remember once finding thispiece of hard candy, um, it was
like bread, I guess it wascherry or something.
And it had like a big black spotin it.
And my mom was like, you know,you can not keep that.
And I'm like, well, it's a pieceof hard candy.
I don't really want that anyway.
It's LSD if only.
So yeah.
But you know, that was, that wasdefinitely a thing in the
(08:47):
seventies.
And I think people were verywary.
I mean, they were even someplaces I know would like x-ray
the kids candy to make surethere were no pins or
razorblades or something likethat.
But you know, if you've neverheard of that.
Yeah.
It actually, I can remember themoffering that service, um, or
hearing about it at some point.
I mean, you know, I think theseventies were kind of a, a dark
era anyway.
I mean, there's a lot ofpolitical unrest and economic
(09:08):
struggle and just uncertainty,you know, factories were closing
and I mean, people were just,yeah, they were struggling.
I mean, it kind of reminds me of2020 in a way.
I was going to say unlike today.
Yeah.
But so I think we can allimagine Halloween nights of
your, in what it was like.
And so if you take yourself backto 1974, we have two kids that
I'm going to talk about.
(09:29):
Their names were Tim andElizabeth O'Brien and they were,
they were just so excited.
They couldn't go out, couldn'twait to go out and hit the
streets and get as much candy aspossible.
So they lived in a suburbanHouston, Texas neighborhood.
And you know, the adults wereworried about all of these d
angers, but kids, that was thelast thing on their mind.
They just wanted to have fun.
(09:49):
Um, so this family, theO'Brians, the parents were, um,
Ronald and they mean O'BrienDamien is an odd name.
I think.
So the parents kind of like you,the group of cool moms, they
decided they were gonna meet upwith another S another set of
parents.
This was a guy, a man, and awoman and their two children, I
think also a boy and a girl.
(10:09):
And so they went over to theirhouse for dinner and drinks.
So I guess they were even doingthis in the seventies, J en.
U m, and they had drinks andthen they were all g oing t o
take the kids out.
The family, they were hangingout with their last name was B
ates.
I can't remember theirchildren's names.
So the O'Bryan kids, Elizabethwas little, she was only five
and Tim was eight.
And both of them, this is socute.
They were both wearing planet ofthe apes costumes.
(10:32):
It was a really kind of a nastynight.
Although to me, those werealways the best kinds of
Halloween nights, where it waskind of drizzly and cold and you
know, it just very atmospheric.
So it was that kind of night.
And everybody else, all theother adults, they got sick of
being out in the rain.
So they're like, you know, wejust want to go home early, but
I'm Ronald.
O'Brien the dad of the two kidsI'm talking about.
(10:54):
He was like, you know, I'll,I'll hang out with them.
I'll just continue taking thekids around so they can finish
their tour of the neighborhood.
So he was a really nice guy, youknow, he was family man, like I
said, and he was deacon at hislocal church.
That means nothing to me.
Well, it doesn't m eet either.
And it was a Baptist church.
Joan, I hate to God, hate tomake it worse for you.
(11:16):
So towards the end of theevening, um, the kids were kind
of going to their final housesand they went up to this one
house and it was dark.
But you know how it was like,when you were a kid, I remember
like, I'd give it a try.
Anyway.
If my mom would let me and, youknow, see if anybody was home.
Well, nobody was so they knockedand knocked and nobody came to
the door.
So they were like, O h, screwthis.
We only have so much time left.
(11:37):
We're g onna run over to thenext house.
So their dad stayed behind.
U m, and he thought, well, I'mjust going to see.
So he knocks and he comes backand he meets up with the kids a
few minutes later and he hasthis tremendous treat.
It's like the best thing they'vegotten all evening.
He has five giant pixie sticks,which is like pirate, l oot.
I feel like it's v ery k id.
(11:57):
You remember those things?
Oh yeah.
I still love them.
You can still get t hem.
Can you get the giant ones?
I mean, I've seen the littleones, but these w ere those
really long ones.
And l ike, like kind of like those, you would go on like a
sugar go into a sugar coma whenyou ate one of those.
But it was
Speaker 2 (12:15):
A huge one.
Y eah.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I mean, those were kind of hard to come by it.
I think I maybe had those acouple of times in my life, but
they were amazing.
So, so he got this great treatand there were five of them.
So he gave one each of the kidswho were trick or treating, t
hey were the four kids he gave,he gave them each one of the big
pixie sticks.
And then he took the other onehome.
And so when they got home, theywere, you know, they were still
(12:39):
getting tri ck-or-treaters themselves.
And Ronald gave a trick ortreater that he actually knew
from church this little, 10 yearold boy named Whitney parkers.
And I don't know if your parentsdid this with you, but the
O'Brians, they would let theirkids pick out one candy to eat
before bed.
I think I ate more than one.
I don't think my mom couldcontrol when it came to like
eating.
(12:59):
I think we,
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I have more than one, but yeah, I think there was a
limit set like the first night.
And then after that, y eah,
Speaker 1 (13:05):
It was like a free for all.
I think that's true.
And I remember even packing some up and like taking it to
school the next day and tradingit with people.
And so the kids pick o ut theircandy and I'm not sure what
Elizabeth, the little one chose,but Tim, I mean, this he's a
smart kid.
He chose the pixie stick.
That's totally what I wo uld h ave c hosen to b e cause t hose
things were delicious.
(13:26):
So his little hands, like, youknow, he's only wha t, w hat did
I say?
Eight years old?
Um, so, you know, manualdexterity probably wasn't all
that it should be.
Um, so he co uldn't get it open.
Um, so his dad helped him, butum, he opened it.
He ate the pixie stick, but hetold his dad he' s li ke, dad,
it tastes bitter.
So Ronald ran.
Yeah.
And he got him some Kool-Aid andsaid here, you know, Was hington
(13:49):
ta ke a drink of this, wash itdown.
And so we did.
And then a few minutes later,the report was that Tim cried
out to his dad and said, daddy,daddy, my stomach hurts.
So they call an ambulance andyou know, they put Tim in the
ambulance, rushed him to thehospital, but he dies before he
even makes it to the hospital.
Now it's so sad, isn't it?
(14:12):
It's heartbreaking.
It is heartbreaking.
Um, and I think like, I don'tknow, you can kind of relate to
it.
Cause we were kids around thattime too.
This is somebody that could have, we could have played with or,
you know, so the police, theycalled the police.
Um, because by this time theysuspect something, you know,
there's some kind of foul play akid doesn't just drop, drop dead
(14:34):
after eating a piece of candy.
So the police are like rushingaround the neighborhood, trying
to figure out how much of thiscandy is there.
Who got it, you know, all ofthis.
So they come, they determined.
Um, Elizabeth, I think Imentioned she already, she had
picked a different kind ofcandy.
So she had not eaten her pixiestick, they to the Bates, his
house, which is, you know, thefamily they were trick or
treating with.
(14:54):
And thankfully, no one there hadeaten the candy, but mrs.
Bates said, she'd been reallytempted to steal any one of the
pixie sticks from her kids.
You know ho w I've never been aparent, but I'm sure I would be
filtering candy off of them if Iwere.
So you know how that is.
So anyway, the police go toWhitney Parker's house and they
tell his parents what, you know,what's happened in his mother
(15:14):
becomes so frantic ca use l i kes he's going around to e
verywhere trying to find this pixie s tick and she can't find
it.
So they go upstairs to Whitney'sroom and they, they opened the
door and he's asleep with thepixie stick clutched in his
hand.
Oh my God.
I know isn't that that's justwild to me.
So like Tim, he couldn't open iton his own.
(15:35):
And it turns out the reason thatthese kids were having a hard
time opening the candy is thatit had been cut.
And u m, like the top had beencut open and then tampered with,
and then kind of folded over andstapled.
When you think somebody wouldhave noticed that.
I feel like as a kid, but maybe,you know, who knows?
I wouldn't notice that as anadult.
Yeah.
(15:55):
I probably wouldn't but I don'tknow.
It's hard to say.
So in the end it turns out that,u m, Tim was the only person to
die in an autopsy revealed thathe had ingested enough
potassium, cyanide to kill twoor three adults, which is just
crazy.
It's just like that poor littleboy.
So the dad, because remember itwas the dad who went to that,
(16:17):
went to the house and it wasdark.
And, but he got the neighbors to, to open up and they given him
a pixie stick.
So the police, you know, wantedto work with him to like try to
find out where this was.
And he said he couldn't quiteremember, which seemed a little
strange because they'd only gonedown two streets.
You know, they kind of stayedwhere they knew it was safe and
they knew people.
So then he said, no, I'mremembering something.
(16:38):
I'm remembering something.
U m, all I can remember is likea hairy arm reaching out of the
door.
Maybe, maybe J en, I know you'rereading my mind.
So police c anvas theneighborhood and they go all
around.
I s it turns out nobody on theroute that the kids had taken
had given out any of these giantpixie sticks, which is a little
curious.
(16:59):
So soon enough it's, it's thelittle boy's funeral Tim's
funeral.
And, um, you know, I alreadymentioned Ronald was a deacon in
the church.
Um, he also, I think sang, hewas in the choir.
Um, I don't know if he was choirdirector, but he's saying, so
he's saying this him, he took ahim and I can't remember which
one it was, but he basicallyreplaced like all the G S, like
the places where Jesus wasmentioned and changed it to his
(17:23):
son's name.
So it was like, Tim does this,or Tim does that.
I guess some people there a ndfound it really moving, but
there were some other people whojust felt like something was not
quite right.
It was just a little off.
And so one of, one of thosepeople was Jim Bates, the guy
that from the other family thatthey were trick or treating
with.
And he noticed, um, that, thatRonald, when he was in the, I
(17:45):
guess when he was in the churchthat he ran like right smack
into his son's casket and hedidn't blink an eye, it was
almost like he didn't evennotice the casket was there.
He was just oblivious to it.
So Jim found that strange.
Um, I don't know if I would'vefound that strange, I would
think, well somebody's sogrief-stricken that they're not
even aware of theirsurroundings, but he just got an
(18:06):
odd feeling.
Isn't it turns out Jim was notthe only one who had some, some
odd feelings.
So literally the morning afterTim passed away, his dad called
his insurance agent and he toldhim about his son's death and
asked to cash out the policyright away.
And he had taken out a policy onboth children.
(18:27):
U m, his wife would later sayshe didn't know about either,
you know, that he had a policyin either kid, but it gets worse
because he had taken out anotherpolicy.
I think, I think on both kids,just a couple of days before
Halloween.
So, you know, it's lookingpretty bad if you dig a little
deeper, you know, beneath thisnice guy veneer, Ronald
(18:48):
O'Brien's life was not actuallygoing all that well.
So yeah, so the family had movedto this suburban Houston
neighborhood, but it wasn't anice neighborhood.
Like they had moved from.
So they had owned a house and Ican't remember the names of
these neighborhoods, but they'downed a house and he had lost a
job.
I think he went throughsomething like 21 jobs in 10
(19:09):
years, which, Oh my gosh, that'sa lot, especially for them
because you know, at that timeyou got a job and you held on to
it.
Exactly.
And you would have a pension and, but it was not like that for
him.
And I don't know why he couldn'thold a job, but he couldn't.
And so he was always in betweenwork and he owed something like
a hundred,$100,000 worth ofdebt.
(19:33):
Um, which in the seventies, youknow, like the early seventies,
that's a lot of money.
Yeah.
That was really uncommon too.
Yeah.
That's, that's really true.
It wasn't common to have thatmuch debt.
And so the family lost theirhouse, um, to foreclosure.
And so they had moved to thisother neighborhood and it's kind
of poignant because when theywent trick or treating with the
other family, the Bates is theBates is actually, um, I think
(19:53):
they, they still lived in thenice neighborhoods.
So they came over or they hadgone to their house and they
came back somewhere.
I forget exactly where theytrick or treated.
Maybe it was in the Bates, hisneighborhood, you know, it was
like they were seeing their oldfriends, but they had kind of
come down on the world.
So there's more talk around thetown and others, other people
start to say, you know, thatRonald has actually talked to
(20:14):
them about how to get potassiumcyanide.
I mean, back in the day, thiswas 74.
So I don't think he'd beGoogling it.
He wouldn't be looking it up ona computer, but he had gone to
this chemical supply shop and hetold the guy that he wanted a
lethal dose, but he wanted thecheapest price.
I know isn't that insane.
And so the guys that I know,like the, I guess the smallest
(20:35):
amount he could sell him wasfive pounds.
And he's like, no, that's toomuch like that.
Maybe he didn't.
And I kind of wondered what histhinking was.
Did he think like I can't hidefive pounds of potassium cyanide
or, or maybe he was just acheapskate and didn't want to
pay for five pounds and I'm noteven really sure what people buy
cyanide for.
I mean, I don't know if you cango to the home Depot and ask for
(20:57):
cyanide, potassium, cyanide,like, do you, what do you use it
for?
But anyway,
Speaker 2 (21:02):
I don't know.
Yeah.
I have no idea.
Like if you could get it or forsome reason, I want to say that,
I want to think that you can,but maybe not, maybe they're
poisoning people up through theeighties with Sinai.
Maybe you can't get it now.
It seems like antifreeze waslike the popular thing.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
But I mean, I, and I've heard, and this is morbid,
but the cyanide poisoning is oneof the most horrible deaths.
Like, so the day after, u m, theday after Tim's funeral, Ronald
is charged with murder.
U m, he's arrested, he's, u h,charged with actually with
murder and attempted murder andhe pleads innocent.
He said I had absolutely nothingto do with this.
(21:41):
He got some lawyers and theirwhole defense kind of revolved
around the dangers of Halloween,like stranger danger,
mysterious, dangerous strangers,you know, all the threats that
were out there.
So their premise was that therewas some unknown or, you know,
uncaught killer on the jurydidn't buy it.
So they deliberated for all of45 minutes.
(22:02):
And on June 3rd, 1975, reallyjust a few months, the j udicial
system moved quickly back then,u m, he was found guilty and he
was also sentenced to death.
Did he actually get death?
Well, his story, I mean, hisstory is not a happy one.
U m, apparently he was, a ndthis is a quote, absolutely
friendless in jail that peoplejust hated him.
(22:22):
You know, we, we've all heardabout how people are really in
jail or can be really hard onpeople who harm children.
And I think that was the feelingabout him.
So I mean, his execution, u m, wa s delayed multiple times, you
know, went through appeals andthings like that.
And I think we're used to thathappening today too.
It takes a long time to go froma sentence to an actual
execution, but there was onestate district judge who ordered
(22:45):
his, he wanted his execution tohappen on October 31st.
And he offered to personallydrive him there.
Now tha t did not stand.
So he was not executed at thattime, but he did finally die or
was killed by lethal injectionin March, 1984.
And he was only 39 years old,you know, think about when he
(23:05):
was.
So that was 84.
The crime happened 10 yearsearlier.
So he had been 29 30 when hekilled his son.
Like wha t a waste of your life.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And I wonder like if his wife, if I doubt if she was
ever interviewed, you know,years later,
Speaker 1 (23:21):
She actually was.
Um, and I don't have a lot ofinformation about that, but I
have a little bit.
So as for Ronald, um, hemaintained that he was innocent
til the end.
He never, he never copped to thecrime, but um, his wife, they
need, uh, she said, you know, Imentioned before she said she
had no idea that he had anyinsurance policies on the kids.
(23:41):
Um, so the, and there was noevidence to suggest that she was
involved.
And so that's heartbreaking toimagine losing your child like
that, but to think that yourspouse is the one, u m, D anny
did divorce Ronald right afterhis conviction.
And I, I read that she laterremarried.
I've really been thinking aboutElizabeth, you know, the little
five-year-old and what her lifewas like in the wake of that,
(24:01):
you know, I mean, she was oldenough to remember
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Did Dany like stand by him during the trial.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
She did, but it sounded very lukewarm to me.
I didn't have a ton ofinformation on that, but it
sounded like she was kind ofgoing through the motions of
standing by him, but was kind ofready.
I think I read that.
She said she wanted to believehim, but like in her heart of
hearts, she knew, you know, thatit was, he was lying and that,
so, um, what I'm going to endwith just, it just sends shivers
(24:31):
down my spine.
So in an interview that waspublished, um, by Damian, she
recollected that she rememberedher, her husband talking to her
about the Bible story of Abrahamand Isaac.
Do you re I know neither one ofus are super churchy, but I know
that story.
You probably know it too.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Is that the one where God a sked him to sacrifice his
son?
Exactly.
I was g onna say, I'm, I'm alltoo familiar with that one.
And that was th e s tory.
I thought he h ad shared it withyou where I was late to Bible
study school or Bible school.
And when I came in, like theywere all coloring pictures.
(25:10):
And when yo u're a kideveryone's chosen the best
already by then.
And you know, you got what yougot and I got stuck with, u m, I
got stuck with a, was itAbraham?
The father?
Yes.
I got stuck with the oneAbraham.
He has a son on top of thismountain and he has his kn ife
raised up in the air.
(25:31):
Like he's getting ready toplunge it into a sun.
A nd that's a picture.
They gave you a c o l or.
I you not.
Yes, that was the picture I got.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
What's a little seven year old or eight year old Jen.
Think of that.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I was just completely, I was stunned by it
because I, I was like, this ishorrible.
What father would do this andwho the would w ant t o, you
know, c ould want to color that?
And I didn't even finishcoloring it.
And I think I s cratched it allout.
I think I even u sed, I think heeven used like a red crayon, you
(26:05):
know, for the blood or whatever.
Wow.
Yeah.
H e
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Probably got some extra gold stars for that little
detail,
Speaker 2 (26:12):
But isn't that like that's, to me is an adult that's
on believable.
That is, that's what happenswhen you're late to B ibles.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
So creepy.
Um, I have a bar Sunday school.
I have a Sunday school story totell you, but I should leave it
for another time.
Um, although I desperately wantto tell you, but I also please
share.
Well, all right.
I feel like I'm missing theappropriate solemnity of the
ending of my story, but tellingthe stupid story.
But I remember, I don't know ifI've ever, I don't think I've
(26:41):
ever told you this.
So I, in Sunday school and I hadactually, this was my, my brief
time of faith.
I had prayed that I would be theonly kid to show up because I
had a really burning questionthat I wanted to ask, but I was
afraid to ask it because I wasafraid people would laugh at me.
So I don't know, I must've beensix or seven.
Maybe
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I thought you were gonna, he started with a six and
I thought you were going to say16,
Speaker 1 (27:07):
1663.
So, so I show up and lo andbehold a miracle had occurred
because I was the only kid inSunday school.
And I can't remember the name ofmy Sunday school teacher, but
she was this very sweet lady,you know?
And so I, I work up the courageto ask my question and I think I
wait almost till the end.
And I'm like, I'm going to missmy chance.
(27:28):
I better ask it.
So I asked her and I'm like, sothe Abraham that I've been
hearing about is he the sameAbraham because Abraham Lincoln
and I don't remember what shesaid, but, um, but she said, no,
dear.
I mean, I think something like,no, dear, you know, they're
different.
Um, and to her credit, she didnot laugh at me, but I often
(27:49):
wonder like what she, what shesaid later, my daughter,
Speaker 2 (27:53):
She was young.
She asked me she was reallyyoung.
She asked me in the car.
Um, if it was, she said, was itGeorge Washington?
Or was it Jesus, I cut down thecherry tree.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
So cute.
But that's the innocence ofkids.
Right.
You know, and I feel like thisstory that we're telling, it's a
horrible story and at the heartof it, what makes it, so, ah, I
don't know, this, the storyreally, I think hit me because
it has all that nostalgia ofHalloween and what it's like to
be a kid and to be innocent andto have that innocence.
(28:24):
And, but at the heart of it issomething so evil, you know?
And, and that's, that's whatthis story is.
And, and just going back to theAbraham story, um, Damian had
said that she, she remembered,uh, Ronald telling her, you
know, I often think about thatstory of Abraham preparing to
sacrifice Isaac and I, and mywonder, what Abraham felt in
(28:46):
that moment.
So that's the story, you know,and it's really, you know, I'm
curious what you think of it.
I found it incredibly sad.
Um,
Speaker 2 (28:57):
When I was listening to this, it really made me
appreciate having a good dadand, you know, the importance of
having good parents, a goodfather.
So, absolutely.
Yeah.
So let's, um, let's toast.
We can raise your glass of waterand I'll raise my, a headless
horseman and let's let's toastto having great dads.
(29:17):
That's right.
Here's here's to our dads, todads.
Thank you to everyone wholistens.
The best thing you can do tohelp us grow is to like review
and subscribe on iTunes and evenbetter yet tweet about us or
post about us on Facebook.
Tell your friends if you thinkthey would like us and have a
good night,
Speaker 3 (29:41):
[inaudible].
I'm Jenna Sullivan and I'm Jen Lee.
And we'd like to welcome you tobeneath your bed, a podcast
where we drag out all thosefears that lurk beneath our beds
from the paranormal to truecrime, to the simply strange
along the way, we'll be drinkingcocktails and sharing stories
from our Appalachianupbringings.
Halloween has its Pantheon ofmonsters goals, ghosts,
(00:23):
werewolves, and vampires to namea few.
But what about the monsters wholive among us?
Sure.
Sometimes evil arrives wearing agrotesque mask, but other times
it can appear downright mundane,whatever shape evil takes.
Those who dare to trust oftennever see it coming.
Jen.
(00:43):
Hey Jen, how are you doingtonight?
I am doing okay.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
I'm looking forward toHalloween.
So am I, I love Halloween.
It's probably, well, I mean, Ilike Christmas, but Halloween is
right up there for me.
I love it.
Christmas is my favorite as youknow, but I do love Halloween
too.
I don't get anytrick-or-treaters but still love
it.
What are you planning to do onHalloween night?
(01:04):
Um, we're not going to doanything.
We're just gonna sit here andwait for no one to show up t o,
to eat our candy.
Wait for the ghostly.
R appings on your window.
W hen y ou're a window pane, we,you know, we give the good out,
like, you know, re ceive p eanutbutter cups.
I guess that's probably not thegreatest thing to g ive out.
Some people have peanutallergies.
Now le t m e t hink about it.
So maybe it's not so good, butbasically the chocolate and not
(01:27):
the stuff that you would getsome times w here we w ould
trick or treat.
Yeah.
Well the worst was like the lion's club candy.
Do you remember that peoplewould buy like five pound bags
from the l ions club?
And it was like these, some wereorange and some were black.
It was like this really nastytaffy.
And I think that was, that wasup there with like some of the
worst what's the li on's c lubonly have no idea what that's I
(01:50):
do n't k n ow.
I think they're activeeverywhere, but it's kind of, I
think it's men ki nd o f l i kedt he, I li ked t he elk lodge,
like the elk lodge.
Yeah.
And I think th eir p articularcharity is they ra ised m oney
for the blind.
So I think they just sit aroundand get loaded like they do at
the Elk s lo dge.
Like I did, like I did thisweekend.
(02:11):
Yeah.
You shut it down this weekend.
So I'm not going to be drinkingtonight, boys and girls.
Um, yeah, I am off the hooch forthe foreseeable future.
It's going to, I was, yeah, Iwas not, well, I was not, well,
I didn't realize she did theshots of vodka.
He did.
I just, the champagne, I sort ofsurreptitiously poured them into
(02:33):
my champagne glass and I downedit and it was raspberry and it
was like, Oh my God, it's like araspberry that's on fire going
down.
My gullet is bad.
I'm paying for it.
Now.
It happens to the best of us.
It does.
It does.
But you controlled yourselfpretty well.
Cause we, I think we don't getto see each other that often.
(02:54):
So when we do, it's like, Ithink I, I don't know.
I guess I thought like I had toreally tie one on or something.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
We were doing this from afar again.
We were out on your front porch.
So we were social distance.
Yep.
Tonight I'm having, what'scalled a headless horseman.
Oh, that's cool.
Yeah.
I'd never heard of it before,but you know, I've been
searching for new cocktails allthe time.
Try to change it up here.
So it has vodka.
She probably don't want to hearthat Angostura bitters and
(03:24):
ginger rail with a it'sgarnished with a it's garnished
with an orange, orange slice
Speaker 1 (03:31):
orange J eanette.
Well, that would kind of looklike the pumpkin head on K
nickerbocker cream, right?
Or a quad core.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
What is it from the nightmare before Christmas?
Jack Love
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Jack Skellington.
You know, I just saw that movie.
U m, I saw most of it maybeabout a week or two ago.
It is ch arming.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Oh, I'm speaking of movies I saw, I actually saw, or
we saw barrette
Speaker 1 (03:55):
For the weekend.
We saw it too.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It's crazy.
I don't even know what to sayabout it.
It's hard to even watch, but youcan't turn away
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Glee and you feel a little guilty in parts.
Like there were parts where Ifeel like, Oh my God, I, as a
moral person, I can't laugh atit.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah.
I think the, the part that Ilike the best, which I'm ashamed
to admit is when they went tothe debutante ball.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
That was my favorite part too.
It was so wrong.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
It was so wrong.
I don't know when.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
So anyway, well it's going to be a good weekend.
Halloween is coming up and yeah,I'm looking forward to just like
watching scary movies and eatinglots of sugar, all that good
stuff.
So tonight to get everybody inthe mood for Halloween, we are
going to be telling a Halloweentheme story, or at least a story
(04:55):
that's set right around here.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's a story about monsters, but human monsters.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So with that, let's get started.
So this takes place in theseventies, the decade of our
conceptions, I guess, and theheyday of our childhoods.
Although I feel like theeighties was the heyday of my
childhood too, but the year is1974 and it's Halloween night.
So if you can remember back whenyou were a kid, I can remember
this really vividly, you know,you suffer through the school
(05:23):
day, all day, just like longingfor the bell to ring.
So you can go home like gobbledown your dinner and then put on
your costume and get the hellout of that house and, you know,
get as much candy as possible.
And I feel like there, there wasan electric energy.
You pass the same houses andtrees and cars and stuff every
day.
But it was different onHalloween night.
It just felt different.
(05:45):
You're right.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You are so right.
You know, you could be outlegitimately with your parents'
permission.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Like even by the time we were kids, at least younger
kids, like I would say most ofthe, of the seventies, I feel
like they're kind of worn a lotof tricks left in Halloween.
I remember my, my mom, she waslike, you know, you will not go
out without supervision.
She probably did that till I was16, but you know, she had to go
with me.
She had to know whose house wewere going to.
I don't know if your parentswere like that, but they were,
(06:13):
mine were like reallyprotective.
And I think that was kind of atheme in the seventies where
kids earlier, like in earlierdecades, it would be kind of a
free for all.
But by the time we were kids,like, I feel like that was
changing.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I think you're right.
My parents let me, when I got tobe a little bit older to go out
with my neighbors, my friends.
But other than that, beforethat, no, there's no way they
would allow that.
And we were only allowed to go.
We didn't have a block.
It was actually the shape of ahorseshoe.
So we were
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Like, so that was the only place you could go.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I mean, it was just kind of lazy trick-or-treating
and probably my parents werelike, get the outta here.
I don't want to go.
I know my dad certainly wantedno part of it.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
So I mean, it's interesting.
It must've been a chore, Iguess, for parents, but you
know, they worked all day andthey come home and their kids
are like raring to go, but itwas just so magical as a child.
I just have the fondest memoriesof it
Speaker 2 (07:01):
When my daughter, when she was maybe around two
and we put the kids instrollers, I mean i n the cool
moms and we would actually meetat another mom's house for
drinks.
And then we put our drinks in acontainer and then we put it on,
y ou k now, one of th ose really big, u h, b aby strollers
or di fferent t h at y ou couldrun with one of those.
(07:22):
So we would walk around likethat, like a jog.
I don't think all of us
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Or something.
I think if I had been a mother,I would want to hang with you
guys.
You guys sound like you werecool
Speaker 2 (07:30):
To think of ourselves as the cool moms, but maybe it
was really, uh, an addictionissue.
But anyway,
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Alcoholic, mumps, think back in the, um, in the
seventies, I, I don't knowexactly when this, this rumor
started, but you started hearingstories of candy being tampered
with.
And I vividly recall my mom andmy aunt, my grandmother, who
was, so over-protective talkingabout that, like, don't accept
an Apple.
It could have a razorblade init.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
The Apple one, the Apple was like the most
pervasive, sinister story.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
is going to give an Apple, like if I got an Apple,
I'd be like, I don't want this.
I m ean, I don't want fruit.
You got t he w rong kid.
I mean, I can remember gettingthose little packs of raisins
and thinking, what the hell is this?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah.
So anyway, I just feel like witha razor blade story with the
apples, it also later on, youknow, apply to just regular
candy as well.
Cause we had to pour ours out onthe floor and we had to go
through it.
Our parents had to look throughit before
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Same here.
Absolutely.
I remember once finding thispiece of hard candy, um, it was
like bread, I guess it wascherry or something.
And it had like a big black spotin it.
And my mom was like, you know,you can not keep that.
And I'm like, well, it's a pieceof hard candy.
I don't really want that anyway.
It's LSD if only.
So yeah.
But you know, that was, that wasdefinitely a thing in the
(08:47):
seventies.
And I think people were verywary.
I mean, they were even someplaces I know would like x-ray
the kids candy to make surethere were no pins or
razorblades or something likethat.
But you know, if you've neverheard of that.
Yeah.
It actually, I can remember themoffering that service, um, or
hearing about it at some point.
I mean, you know, I think theseventies were kind of a, a dark
era anyway.
I mean, there's a lot ofpolitical unrest and economic
(09:08):
struggle and just uncertainty,you know, factories were closing
and I mean, people were just,yeah, they were struggling.
I mean, it kind of reminds me of2020 in a way.
I was going to say unlike today.
Yeah.
But so I think we can allimagine Halloween nights of
your, in what it was like.
And so if you take yourself backto 1974, we have two kids that
I'm going to talk about.
(09:29):
Their names were Tim andElizabeth O'Brien and they were,
they were just so excited.
They couldn't go out, couldn'twait to go out and hit the
streets and get as much candy aspossible.
So they lived in a suburbanHouston, Texas neighborhood.
And you know, the adults wereworried about all of these d
angers, but kids, that was thelast thing on their mind.
They just wanted to have fun.
(09:49):
Um, so this family, theO'Brians, the parents were, um,
Ronald and they mean O'BrienDamien is an odd name.
I think.
So the parents kind of like you,the group of cool moms, they
decided they were gonna meet upwith another S another set of
parents.
This was a guy, a man, and awoman and their two children, I
think also a boy and a girl.
(10:09):
And so they went over to theirhouse for dinner and drinks.
So I guess they were even doingthis in the seventies, J en.
U m, and they had drinks andthen they were all g oing t o
take the kids out.
The family, they were hangingout with their last name was B
ates.
I can't remember theirchildren's names.
So the O'Bryan kids, Elizabethwas little, she was only five
and Tim was eight.
And both of them, this is socute.
They were both wearing planet ofthe apes costumes.
(10:32):
It was a really kind of a nastynight.
Although to me, those werealways the best kinds of
Halloween nights, where it waskind of drizzly and cold and you
know, it just very atmospheric.
So it was that kind of night.
And everybody else, all theother adults, they got sick of
being out in the rain.
So they're like, you know, wejust want to go home early, but
I'm Ronald.
O'Brien the dad of the two kidsI'm talking about.
(10:54):
He was like, you know, I'll,I'll hang out with them.
I'll just continue taking thekids around so they can finish
their tour of the neighborhood.
So he was a really nice guy, youknow, he was family man, like I
said, and he was deacon at hislocal church.
That means nothing to me.
Well, it doesn't m eet either.
And it was a Baptist church.
Joan, I hate to God, hate tomake it worse for you.
(11:16):
So towards the end of theevening, um, the kids were kind
of going to their final housesand they went up to this one
house and it was dark.
But you know how it was like,when you were a kid, I remember
like, I'd give it a try.
Anyway.
If my mom would let me and, youknow, see if anybody was home.
Well, nobody was so they knockedand knocked and nobody came to
the door.
So they were like, O h, screwthis.
We only have so much time left.
(11:37):
We're g onna run over to thenext house.
So their dad stayed behind.
U m, and he thought, well, I'mjust going to see.
So he knocks and he comes backand he meets up with the kids a
few minutes later and he hasthis tremendous treat.
It's like the best thing they'vegotten all evening.
He has five giant pixie sticks,which is like pirate, l oot.
I feel like it's v ery k id.
(11:57):
You remember those things?
Oh yeah.
I still love them.
You can still get t hem.
Can you get the giant ones?
I mean, I've seen the littleones, but these w ere those
really long ones.
And l ike, like kind of like those, you would go on like a
sugar go into a sugar coma whenyou ate one of those.
But it was
Speaker 2 (12:15):
A huge one.
Y eah.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I mean, those were kind of hard to come by it.
I think I maybe had those acouple of times in my life, but
they were amazing.
So, so he got this great treatand there were five of them.
So he gave one each of the kidswho were trick or treating, t
hey were the four kids he gave,he gave them each one of the big
pixie sticks.
And then he took the other onehome.
And so when they got home, theywere, you know, they were still
(12:39):
getting tri ck-or-treaters themselves.
And Ronald gave a trick ortreater that he actually knew
from church this little, 10 yearold boy named Whitney parkers.
And I don't know if your parentsdid this with you, but the
O'Brians, they would let theirkids pick out one candy to eat
before bed.
I think I ate more than one.
I don't think my mom couldcontrol when it came to like
eating.
(12:59):
I think we,
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I have more than one, but yeah, I think there was a
limit set like the first night.
And then after that, y eah,
Speaker 1 (13:05):
It was like a free for all.
I think that's true.
And I remember even packing some up and like taking it to
school the next day and tradingit with people.
And so the kids pick o ut theircandy and I'm not sure what
Elizabeth, the little one chose,but Tim, I mean, this he's a
smart kid.
He chose the pixie stick.
That's totally what I wo uld h ave c hosen to b e cause t hose
things were delicious.
(13:26):
So his little hands, like, youknow, he's only wha t, w hat did
I say?
Eight years old?
Um, so, you know, manualdexterity probably wasn't all
that it should be.
Um, so he co uldn't get it open.
Um, so his dad helped him, butum, he opened it.
He ate the pixie stick, but hetold his dad he' s li ke, dad,
it tastes bitter.
So Ronald ran.
Yeah.
And he got him some Kool-Aid andsaid here, you know, Was hington
(13:49):
ta ke a drink of this, wash itdown.
And so we did.
And then a few minutes later,the report was that Tim cried
out to his dad and said, daddy,daddy, my stomach hurts.
So they call an ambulance andyou know, they put Tim in the
ambulance, rushed him to thehospital, but he dies before he
even makes it to the hospital.
Now it's so sad, isn't it?
(14:12):
It's heartbreaking.
It is heartbreaking.
Um, and I think like, I don'tknow, you can kind of relate to
it.
Cause we were kids around thattime too.
This is somebody that could have, we could have played with or,
you know, so the police, theycalled the police.
Um, because by this time theysuspect something, you know,
there's some kind of foul play akid doesn't just drop, drop dead
(14:34):
after eating a piece of candy.
So the police are like rushingaround the neighborhood, trying
to figure out how much of thiscandy is there.
Who got it, you know, all ofthis.
So they come, they determined.
Um, Elizabeth, I think Imentioned she already, she had
picked a different kind ofcandy.
So she had not eaten her pixiestick, they to the Bates, his
house, which is, you know, thefamily they were trick or
treating with.
(14:54):
And thankfully, no one there hadeaten the candy, but mrs.
Bates said, she'd been reallytempted to steal any one of the
pixie sticks from her kids.
You know ho w I've never been aparent, but I'm sure I would be
filtering candy off of them if Iwere.
So you know how that is.
So anyway, the police go toWhitney Parker's house and they
tell his parents what, you know,what's happened in his mother
(15:14):
becomes so frantic ca use l i kes he's going around to e
verywhere trying to find this pixie s tick and she can't find
it.
So they go upstairs to Whitney'sroom and they, they opened the
door and he's asleep with thepixie stick clutched in his
hand.
Oh my God.
I know isn't that that's justwild to me.
So like Tim, he couldn't open iton his own.
(15:35):
And it turns out the reason thatthese kids were having a hard
time opening the candy is thatit had been cut.
And u m, like the top had beencut open and then tampered with,
and then kind of folded over andstapled.
When you think somebody wouldhave noticed that.
I feel like as a kid, but maybe,you know, who knows?
I wouldn't notice that as anadult.
Yeah.
(15:55):
I probably wouldn't but I don'tknow.
It's hard to say.
So in the end it turns out that,u m, Tim was the only person to
die in an autopsy revealed thathe had ingested enough
potassium, cyanide to kill twoor three adults, which is just
crazy.
It's just like that poor littleboy.
So the dad, because remember itwas the dad who went to that,
(16:17):
went to the house and it wasdark.
And, but he got the neighbors to, to open up and they given him
a pixie stick.
So the police, you know, wantedto work with him to like try to
find out where this was.
And he said he couldn't quiteremember, which seemed a little
strange because they'd only gonedown two streets.
You know, they kind of stayedwhere they knew it was safe and
they knew people.
So then he said, no, I'mremembering something.
(16:38):
I'm remembering something.
U m, all I can remember is likea hairy arm reaching out of the
door.
Maybe, maybe J en, I know you'rereading my mind.
So police c anvas theneighborhood and they go all
around.
I s it turns out nobody on theroute that the kids had taken
had given out any of these giantpixie sticks, which is a little
curious.
(16:59):
So soon enough it's, it's thelittle boy's funeral Tim's
funeral.
And, um, you know, I alreadymentioned Ronald was a deacon in
the church.
Um, he also, I think sang, hewas in the choir.
Um, I don't know if he was choirdirector, but he's saying, so
he's saying this him, he took ahim and I can't remember which
one it was, but he basicallyreplaced like all the G S, like
the places where Jesus wasmentioned and changed it to his
(17:23):
son's name.
So it was like, Tim does this,or Tim does that.
I guess some people there a ndfound it really moving, but
there were some other people whojust felt like something was not
quite right.
It was just a little off.
And so one of, one of thosepeople was Jim Bates, the guy
that from the other family thatthey were trick or treating
with.
And he noticed, um, that, thatRonald, when he was in the, I
(17:45):
guess when he was in the churchthat he ran like right smack
into his son's casket and hedidn't blink an eye, it was
almost like he didn't evennotice the casket was there.
He was just oblivious to it.
So Jim found that strange.
Um, I don't know if I would'vefound that strange, I would
think, well somebody's sogrief-stricken that they're not
even aware of theirsurroundings, but he just got an
(18:06):
odd feeling.
Isn't it turns out Jim was notthe only one who had some, some
odd feelings.
So literally the morning afterTim passed away, his dad called
his insurance agent and he toldhim about his son's death and
asked to cash out the policyright away.
And he had taken out a policy onboth children.
(18:27):
U m, his wife would later sayshe didn't know about either,
you know, that he had a policyin either kid, but it gets worse
because he had taken out anotherpolicy.
I think, I think on both kids,just a couple of days before
Halloween.
So, you know, it's lookingpretty bad if you dig a little
deeper, you know, beneath thisnice guy veneer, Ronald
(18:48):
O'Brien's life was not actuallygoing all that well.
So yeah, so the family had movedto this suburban Houston
neighborhood, but it wasn't anice neighborhood.
Like they had moved from.
So they had owned a house and Ican't remember the names of
these neighborhoods, but they'downed a house and he had lost a
job.
I think he went throughsomething like 21 jobs in 10
(19:09):
years, which, Oh my gosh, that'sa lot, especially for them
because you know, at that timeyou got a job and you held on to
it.
Exactly.
And you would have a pension and, but it was not like that for
him.
And I don't know why he couldn'thold a job, but he couldn't.
And so he was always in betweenwork and he owed something like
a hundred,$100,000 worth ofdebt.
(19:33):
Um, which in the seventies, youknow, like the early seventies,
that's a lot of money.
Yeah.
That was really uncommon too.
Yeah.
That's, that's really true.
It wasn't common to have thatmuch debt.
And so the family lost theirhouse, um, to foreclosure.
And so they had moved to thisother neighborhood and it's kind
of poignant because when theywent trick or treating with the
other family, the Bates is theBates is actually, um, I think
(19:53):
they, they still lived in thenice neighborhoods.
So they came over or they hadgone to their house and they
came back somewhere.
I forget exactly where theytrick or treated.
Maybe it was in the Bates, hisneighborhood, you know, it was
like they were seeing their oldfriends, but they had kind of
come down on the world.
So there's more talk around thetown and others, other people
start to say, you know, thatRonald has actually talked to
(20:14):
them about how to get potassiumcyanide.
I mean, back in the day, thiswas 74.
So I don't think he'd beGoogling it.
He wouldn't be looking it up ona computer, but he had gone to
this chemical supply shop and hetold the guy that he wanted a
lethal dose, but he wanted thecheapest price.
I know isn't that insane.
And so the guys that I know,like the, I guess the smallest
(20:35):
amount he could sell him wasfive pounds.
And he's like, no, that's toomuch like that.
Maybe he didn't.
And I kind of wondered what histhinking was.
Did he think like I can't hidefive pounds of potassium cyanide
or, or maybe he was just acheapskate and didn't want to
pay for five pounds and I'm noteven really sure what people buy
cyanide for.
I mean, I don't know if you cango to the home Depot and ask for
(20:57):
cyanide, potassium, cyanide,like, do you, what do you use it
for?
But anyway,
Speaker 2 (21:02):
I don't know.
Yeah.
I have no idea.
Like if you could get it or forsome reason, I want to say that,
I want to think that you can,but maybe not, maybe they're
poisoning people up through theeighties with Sinai.
Maybe you can't get it now.
It seems like antifreeze waslike the popular thing.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
But I mean, I, and I've heard, and this is morbid,
but the cyanide poisoning is oneof the most horrible deaths.
Like, so the day after, u m, theday after Tim's funeral, Ronald
is charged with murder.
U m, he's arrested, he's, u h,charged with actually with
murder and attempted murder andhe pleads innocent.
He said I had absolutely nothingto do with this.
(21:41):
He got some lawyers and theirwhole defense kind of revolved
around the dangers of Halloween,like stranger danger,
mysterious, dangerous strangers,you know, all the threats that
were out there.
So their premise was that therewas some unknown or, you know,
uncaught killer on the jurydidn't buy it.
So they deliberated for all of45 minutes.
(22:02):
And on June 3rd, 1975, reallyjust a few months, the j udicial
system moved quickly back then,u m, he was found guilty and he
was also sentenced to death.
Did he actually get death?
Well, his story, I mean, hisstory is not a happy one.
U m, apparently he was, a ndthis is a quote, absolutely
friendless in jail that peoplejust hated him.
(22:22):
You know, we, we've all heardabout how people are really in
jail or can be really hard onpeople who harm children.
And I think that was the feelingabout him.
So I mean, his execution, u m, wa s delayed multiple times, you
know, went through appeals andthings like that.
And I think we're used to thathappening today too.
It takes a long time to go froma sentence to an actual
execution, but there was onestate district judge who ordered
(22:45):
his, he wanted his execution tohappen on October 31st.
And he offered to personallydrive him there.
Now tha t did not stand.
So he was not executed at thattime, but he did finally die or
was killed by lethal injectionin March, 1984.
And he was only 39 years old,you know, think about when he
(23:05):
was.
So that was 84.
The crime happened 10 yearsearlier.
So he had been 29 30 when hekilled his son.
Like wha t a waste of your life.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And I wonder like if his wife, if I doubt if she was
ever interviewed, you know,years later,
Speaker 1 (23:21):
She actually was.
Um, and I don't have a lot ofinformation about that, but I
have a little bit.
So as for Ronald, um, hemaintained that he was innocent
til the end.
He never, he never copped to thecrime, but um, his wife, they
need, uh, she said, you know, Imentioned before she said she
had no idea that he had anyinsurance policies on the kids.
(23:41):
Um, so the, and there was noevidence to suggest that she was
involved.
And so that's heartbreaking toimagine losing your child like
that, but to think that yourspouse is the one, u m, D anny
did divorce Ronald right afterhis conviction.
And I, I read that she laterremarried.
I've really been thinking aboutElizabeth, you know, the little
five-year-old and what her lifewas like in the wake of that,
(24:01):
you know, I mean, she was oldenough to remember
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Did Dany like stand by him during the trial.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
She did, but it sounded very lukewarm to me.
I didn't have a ton ofinformation on that, but it
sounded like she was kind ofgoing through the motions of
standing by him, but was kind ofready.
I think I read that.
She said she wanted to believehim, but like in her heart of
hearts, she knew, you know, thatit was, he was lying and that,
so, um, what I'm going to endwith just, it just sends shivers
(24:31):
down my spine.
So in an interview that waspublished, um, by Damian, she
recollected that she rememberedher, her husband talking to her
about the Bible story of Abrahamand Isaac.
Do you re I know neither one ofus are super churchy, but I know
that story.
You probably know it too.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Is that the one where God a sked him to sacrifice his
son?
Exactly.
I was g onna say, I'm, I'm alltoo familiar with that one.
And that was th e s tory.
I thought he h ad shared it withyou where I was late to Bible
study school or Bible school.
And when I came in, like theywere all coloring pictures.
(25:10):
And when yo u're a kideveryone's chosen the best
already by then.
And you know, you got what yougot and I got stuck with, u m, I
got stuck with a, was itAbraham?
The father?
Yes.
I got stuck with the oneAbraham.
He has a son on top of thismountain and he has his kn ife
raised up in the air.
(25:31):
Like he's getting ready toplunge it into a sun.
A nd that's a picture.
They gave you a c o l or.
I you not.
Yes, that was the picture I got.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
What's a little seven year old or eight year old Jen.
Think of that.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I was just completely, I was stunned by it
because I, I was like, this ishorrible.
What father would do this andwho the would w ant t o, you
know, c ould want to color that?
And I didn't even finishcoloring it.
And I think I s cratched it allout.
I think I even u sed, I think heeven used like a red crayon, you
(26:05):
know, for the blood or whatever.
Wow.
Yeah.
H e
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Probably got some extra gold stars for that little
detail,
Speaker 2 (26:12):
But isn't that like that's, to me is an adult that's
on believable.
That is, that's what happenswhen you're late to B ibles.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
So creepy.
Um, I have a bar Sunday school.
I have a Sunday school story totell you, but I should leave it
for another time.
Um, although I desperately wantto tell you, but I also please
share.
Well, all right.
I feel like I'm missing theappropriate solemnity of the
ending of my story, but tellingthe stupid story.
But I remember, I don't know ifI've ever, I don't think I've
(26:41):
ever told you this.
So I, in Sunday school and I hadactually, this was my, my brief
time of faith.
I had prayed that I would be theonly kid to show up because I
had a really burning questionthat I wanted to ask, but I was
afraid to ask it because I wasafraid people would laugh at me.
So I don't know, I must've beensix or seven.
Maybe
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I thought you were gonna, he started with a six and
I thought you were going to say16,
Speaker 1 (27:07):
1663.
So, so I show up and lo andbehold a miracle had occurred
because I was the only kid inSunday school.
And I can't remember the name ofmy Sunday school teacher, but
she was this very sweet lady,you know?
And so I, I work up the courageto ask my question and I think I
wait almost till the end.
And I'm like, I'm going to missmy chance.
(27:28):
I better ask it.
So I asked her and I'm like, sothe Abraham that I've been
hearing about is he the sameAbraham because Abraham Lincoln
and I don't remember what shesaid, but, um, but she said, no,
dear.
I mean, I think something like,no, dear, you know, they're
different.
Um, and to her credit, she didnot laugh at me, but I often
(27:49):
wonder like what she, what shesaid later, my daughter,
Speaker 2 (27:53):
She was young.
She asked me she was reallyyoung.
She asked me in the car.
Um, if it was, she said, was itGeorge Washington?
Or was it Jesus, I cut down thecherry tree.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
So cute.
But that's the innocence ofkids.
Right.
You know, and I feel like thisstory that we're telling, it's a
horrible story and at the heartof it, what makes it, so, ah, I
don't know, this, the storyreally, I think hit me because
it has all that nostalgia ofHalloween and what it's like to
be a kid and to be innocent andto have that innocence.
(28:24):
And, but at the heart of it issomething so evil, you know?
And, and that's, that's whatthis story is.
And, and just going back to theAbraham story, um, Damian had
said that she, she remembered,uh, Ronald telling her, you
know, I often think about thatstory of Abraham preparing to
sacrifice Isaac and I, and mywonder, what Abraham felt in
(28:46):
that moment.
So that's the story, you know,and it's really, you know, I'm
curious what you think of it.
I found it incredibly sad.
Um,
Speaker 2 (28:57):
When I was listening to this, it really made me
appreciate having a good dadand, you know, the importance of
having good parents, a goodfather.
So, absolutely.
Yeah.
So let's, um, let's toast.
We can raise your glass of waterand I'll raise my, a headless
horseman and let's let's toastto having great dads.
(29:17):
That's right.
Here's here's to our dads, todads.
Thank you to everyone wholistens.
The best thing you can do tohelp us grow is to like review
and subscribe on iTunes and evenbetter yet tweet about us or
post about us on Facebook.
Tell your friends if you thinkthey would like us and have a
good night,
Speaker 3 (29:41):
[inaudible].
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.