April 10, 2025 • 30 mins
Award-winning journalist Dina Gachman takes us on a profound journey through the landscape of loss, sharing how the deaths of her mother from cancer and sister from alcoholism transformed her understanding of grief. With remarkable candor, Dina reveals the unexpected realities of home hospice care—administering morphine every few hours with minimal professional support, experiencing moments of dark humor amidst heartbreak, and feeling the conflicting emotions of not wanting a loved one to die while being exhausted by their prolonged suffering.
The conversation explores the concept of "ambiguous loss"—grief experienced not from death but from relationship changes—which Dina encountered during her sister's years-long battle with alcoholism. She articulates how this differs from the anticipatory grief she felt watching her mother's cancer progress, offering valuable insights for anyone navigating complex family relationships affected by addiction or illness.
Most powerfully, Dina challenges the common misconception that grief follows five neat stages before we "move on." Instead, she describes learning to integrate grief permanently into her life: "I'm now a person forevermore that carries grief with me every single day, but I have a ton of joy." This reframing offers tremendous hope to listeners feeling overwhelmed by loss, demonstrating how we can honor our departed loved ones while still embracing happiness.
Dina's book "So Sorry for Your Loss" emerged from recognizing how uncomfortable most people are discussing grief. She combines personal memoir with journalistic exploration of topics like pet loss, hospice care, and the connection between food and mourning. Her work reminds us that acknowledging grief openly doesn't diminish joy—it creates space for authentic healing and deeper connection with both the living and those we've lost.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dina Gachman (00:00):
It's an excruciating way for you to
live.
So it's this really toughconflict of like, of course you
don't want them to go.
But by the end of the eightdays, my sisters and I were
like, I don't know if we can dothis another night.
Like it just really saps you ofeverything.
So that was probably thetoughest eight days of my life
for sure.
Michael Liben (00:22):
Welcome, friends, to Bereaved But Still Me.
The purpose of our podcast isto empower members of our
community.
I'm Michael Lieben, and thefather of three children, Liel,
Sapir, and Idan.
Liel, my youngest daughter, wasborn with a heart defect, and
later she developed autism andepilepsy.
Losing her at 15 is what hasbrought me here to be the host
of this program.
Our guest today is DenaGashman.
(00:43):
She is a Pulitzer Centergrantee and an award-winning
journalist.
She writes for The New YorkTimes, Vox, Texas Monthly, Teen
Vogue, Vanity Fair, TheGuardian, The New York Times
Magazine, and more.
She also writes a monthly moviecolumn for The New York Times.
Publishers Weekly calls hersecond book of essays, So Sorry
for Your Loss, a poignantpersonal exploration of grief.
(01:04):
She studied English literatureat UCLA.
and has appeared on ABC's 2020,CBS' We Are Austin, Chicago's
WGN, and Texas Standard.
She's written two comic booksfor Blue Water Comics about
legendary superheroes MarilynMonroe and Elizabeth Taylor.
She lives near Austin, Texaswith her husband and son.
My executive producer, AnnaJaworski, discovered Dina's
(01:26):
book, So Sorry for Your Loss, atthe Larkin Owl Bookstore in
Georgetown, Texas, and she wastouched by how Dina and she both
lost their mothers in 2018.
Dina, thank you so much forjoining us on Bereaved But Still
Me.
Dina Gachman (01:39):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 02 (01:40):
Let's start by talking about your mother.
What did she discover and when?
Speaker 01 (01:44):
My mom was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer in
the spring of 2015, and it wasabout five weeks before my
wedding.
So that's when she got thediagnosis.
We didn't really know what toexpect.
We sort of hoped that there wasgoing to be a cure and that
she'd be fine.
We didn't really know what thatcolon cancer meant when she
(02:05):
Really, typically you have aboutfive years.
And then she was on chemo anddid all kinds of procedures
until the fall of 2018 when shedied.
Speaker 02 (02:18):
I think a lot of families, when they find out
that someone in the family or aparent has cancer, there's
always that moment of, well,maybe it's not like everybody
else.
Maybe this will be different.
Maybe there'll be a cure.
I sense that you had sort ofthat ongoing hope, right?
Can you talk about that for asecond?
Speaker 01 (02:37):
We did.
I mean, I come from a very,very close family.
My parents were high schoolsweethearts.
I'm the oldest of fourdaughters.
And so the diagnosis wasextremely devastating for us as
it is for anyone who has a lovedone that hears that.
But we definitely held out hopeuntil the very end.
I think as the years went on,it was about three and a half
(03:00):
years to four years that she wason chemo.
As the years went on, westarted to understand that,
okay, this isn't there's not amiracle cure.
And we started to grapple withthat and try and accept it.
But at the beginning, we verymuch thought in a year, we're
going to have a mom beats cancerparty.
We even put that in ouriPhones.
It's like a good little goodluck thing.
And we really were like, okay,she's going to, you know, as
(03:22):
people say, beat this and she'llbe fine in a year.
And we're going to look backand just think, oh, you know, we
really got through that and itwould be fine.
That's what we thought.
Speaker 02 (03:31):
Well, you have other sisters.
How are they taking this withyou?
Speaker 01 (03:34):
I'm the oldest and we were all devastated.
My third in line sister, Jackiesuffered from alcoholism for
decades.
And so when our mom wasdiagnosed, Jackie was not doing
well.
She wasn't what some peopleterm like a functioning
alcoholic.
I mean, when she was drinking,it was just a whole different
(03:55):
person.
It was very hard to connectwith her.
So Jackie kind of dealt with itin her own way.
She was living in New York, faraway from us.
And then my other two sisters,Amy and Catherine and I, just we
really banded together.
We texted constantly.
We tried to help our mom.
We tried to help our dad.
So we just, you know, we werealready close.
It brought us a lot closer.
(04:16):
But with Jackie, it was toughbecause she just couldn't, she
just didn't have the ability toreally be present.
Speaker 02 (04:24):
I can think about other families I know where
there's a always somebody who'sgot something on their plates
that sort of keeps them fromparticipating.
I'm not talking aboutalcoholism, about other things,
but there's a line there betweenwhat you can do and what you
want to do.
And I often wondered about thepeople who are more on spot with
(04:45):
what they thought if they hadan issue with that.
Speaker 01 (04:49):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know,everyone grieves differently,
obviously.
And so even without somethinglike alcohol, In the mix, there
could be somebody in the familythat just doesn't want to face
it, doesn't want to talk aboutit.
Maybe they go into work mode.
But I think all of us were verymuch like trying to be there
for her.
I was living in California.
(05:10):
I flew to Houston as much aspossible to just be with her
during those years.
So I think I kind of startedreconnecting with Texas because
I had lived away so long just bycoming home and seeing her.
Speaker 02 (05:21):
In your book, you have a chapter called The Long
Goodbye.
Tell us a little bit about thehospice experience with your
mother.
Speaker 01 (05:30):
It was very difficult.
Anyone who's experiencedhospice with a loved one,
whether it's at home, which wehad, or in a hospital, knows how
agonizing it can be.
But she was still doing herchemo, which, you know, the
chemo had sent her into thehospital multiple times over the
years.
It was just very rough on thebody.
(05:51):
And this was...
Like early November, 2018, sheeven had an experimental
procedure set up, but she justwasn't doing well.
And I was actually in Houstonand the day I left, she was
really, really sick.
I went back home and like a dayor two later, she went into the
hospital and they basicallyfound out that her colon had
(06:11):
torn and there was nothing theycould do.
That was kind of the end.
And so then I flew right backand that's when.
Basically, our choice was shestays in the hospital or we
bring her home.
So we chose to bring her homeand just get her out of the
hospital with the beeps andwaking her up every, you know,
two hours or what it was.
But it was it was incrediblydifficult.
(06:32):
And we had no idea what toexpect in America.
It depends on what yourinsurance is, if you have
insurance.
And, you know, what my parentshad was meant that my sister and
I, like we would be giving themedication and we would be
basically there with her and anurse would come by maybe twice
a day, if that.
So we were very shocked,totally shocked by that.
(06:52):
We thought it would be like amovie, you know, where there's a
nurse there all the timehelping us.
And that was 100% not the case.
Speaker 02 (06:58):
Excuse me for giggling, but I definitely,
yeah, I get that.
Speaker 01 (07:02):
Oh, for sure.
I mean, the chapter has humorin it because I don't know how
else you can sort of face thisand also read about it without
some dark humor.
So we were completely...
just exhausted and I barelyknew what day it was.
So it was eight days of at-homehospice.
And it was, I say this in thebook, but the thing about
hospice is you don't want yourperson to die, obviously, but
(07:25):
then watching them slowly die isexcruciating.
It's an excruciating way foryou to live.
So it's this really toughconflict of like, of course you
don't want them to go.
But by the end of the eightdays, my sisters and I were
like, I don't know if we can dothis another night.
Like it just really saps you ofeverything.
So That was probably thetoughest eight days of my life,
(07:45):
for sure.
Speaker 02 (07:46):
What was the learning curve like?
I mean, it's not just givingmedication, and I'm pretty sure
medication isn't just a pill.
So what did you have to learnto be home with her in hospice?
Speaker 01 (07:56):
Yeah, it was like a liquid morphine.
So we had to make a chart,which was very illegible.
Speaker 03 (08:01):
Because
Speaker 01 (08:01):
none of us are super type A.
So a barely legible chart wherewe could just remember like,
okay, every two hours we have todo this.
And it was terrifying becausethat responsibility of like,
what if we are five minutes lateor what if we lose it?
It was a horribleresponsibility to try and keep
her out of pain.
But we learned and we figuredout how to do it.
(08:22):
We did lose the morphine oneday, which was terrifying
Speaker 02 (08:25):
and
Speaker 01 (08:26):
led to some dark
Speaker 02 (08:26):
comedy.
What was that like?
Unknown (08:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (08:29):
well we had a cabinet we put it in because my
nephew was really youngobviously we were going to put
it in a high cabinet and we wentto get it and we couldn't i
mean it was absolutelyterrifying we were like beside
ourselves i literally wentoutside it was in the evening
and dug in the trash cans likeno i mean yeah i was digging in
the trash cans our family friendcame and saw me digging through
(08:50):
the trash can and we found itit was on the table by her bed
the whole time um one of usthat's
Speaker 02 (08:56):
where it always is right
Speaker 01 (08:57):
No, we put it in a high cabinet.
I know, but
Speaker 02 (09:00):
it's always
Speaker 01 (09:01):
where you don't expect it, right?
Exactly.
We did not expect it to bethere.
So it was very scary.
My heart still races when Ithink about it.
Speaker 03 (09:08):
Sure.
Speaker 01 (09:09):
But the learning curve was just, I guess,
learning to sit with it reallywas the hardest thing.
And it meaning the fact thatour mom is dying in the house.
And we got to hold her hand.
We got to say everything weneeded and more.
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (09:28):
You are listening to Bereaved But Still Me.
If you have a question orcomment that you would like
addressed on our program, pleasesend an email to Michael Lieben
at michael atbereavedbutstillme.com.
That's michael atbereavedbutstillme.com.
This content is not intended tobe a substitute for
(09:50):
professional medical advice,diagnosis, or treatment.
The opinions expressed in thepodcast are not those of Hearts
Unite the Globe, but of thehosts and guests, and are
intended to spark discussionabout issues pertaining to
congenital heart disease orbereavement.
Speaker 02 (10:09):
In the first part, we talked about you and your
family losing your belovedmother, but you have another
massive loss that you'vesuffered.
Tell us more about that.
Speaker 01 (10:17):
So my mom died in the fall of 2018.
And then at the very beginningof 2021, my sister Jackie, who
suffered from alcoholism, died.
She was 39.
And thank you.
And she had suffered for yearsand years and years to the point
where she was constantly inrehabs and detoxes.
People were constantly sendingme messages like, your sister's
(10:37):
sleeping in a park.
I mean, it was bad.
And so we had always fearedgetting the call.
I call it the call, like in allcaps.
Sure.
but it never came thankgoodness and for the year before
she died she actually got sobershe finally got sober again and
it was wonderful and we weretalking all the time and she was
(10:58):
back to herself and we laughedand we were trying to plan a
trip to get together so when wegot the call it was i don't know
it was a shock well because shehad sort of disappeared for
maybe about five days, so weknew what was going on.
But it was a call that itactually happened, the thing
that we feared for yearsactually happened, and so soon
(11:20):
after our mom.
So we were all completely justhad no idea even how to take
that first step into that secondgrief.
Speaker 02 (11:28):
Do you think that it was somehow related that she
had to deal with her mother'sloss and on top of everything
else she had to live with?
Speaker 01 (11:36):
I'm sure that...
that didn't help and that's oneof the hard things about losing
somebody in this way you knowmy sister was alone in a hotel
room when she died and
Speaker 03 (11:45):
we
Speaker 01 (11:46):
have no way of knowing what her last days and
hours were like we just willnever ever ever know i ha i know
who she texted i actually madesome calls but i don't know i
don't you know it's very hard tosay i know we've my dad my
other sisters and i have allracked our brains of like what
could we have done could we havetexted more or what was going
(12:06):
through her mind.
But the hard part of this kindof loss is like, you just have
to kind of accept that you'rejust never going to know.
And that's not easy.
Speaker 02 (12:14):
No, it's not.
But I want to just add therethat I don't think you should be
beating yourself up over this.
I don't think it's the sort ofthing where you can say, what
could I have done?
Whatever it was, was, andthat's part of the acceptance.
But I don't think you have towalk around the rest of your
life thinking it could bedifferent if only I had, because
you didn't.
And it doesn't matter.
Speaker 01 (12:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's very true.
And I appreciate you sayingthat.
And that's something that we'veall definitely come to terms
with.
I mean, it took us a while, ofcourse, my dad, especially
because they were super closeand she told him everything.
I mean, she always called whenshe was in trouble.
And so he, of course, reallybeat himself up.
But now we've, we've come tothat realization that like
(12:54):
there's on, there's nothing wecould have done.
Speaker 02 (12:59):
Let's talk a little bit about a term that you gave
me when we first met, ambiguousloss, which is not necessarily
the loss like death.
So talk more about that withyou and your sister.
Speaker 01 (13:10):
So I learned about ambiguous loss as I was doing
research for the book.
And I interviewed a lot ofpeople in the book, both
professionals, so palliativecare physicians and therapists.
And then I also talked to justregular people about their
losses.
And one of the people I talkedto was my friend Al.
And She had lost her dad, andhe had actually been kidnapped,
(13:30):
and it was pretty bad.
And so she told me aboutambiguous loss, and she said
that when she learned that term,it helped her process what she
had been feeling about her dadall those years.
And when she explained it tome, it made so much sense.
It's basically a grief thathappens not from a death, but
from...
change in the relationship sowhether it's substance abuse or
(13:53):
mental health or an estrangementor in her case you know a
kidnapping there's no funeralright there's no death but
you're feeling grief you'refeeling bereft and it really
helped me once i learned thatunderstand all the emotions that
went along with loving mysister all those years it was
very helpful
Speaker 02 (14:15):
would you say that your relationship with her was
an important piece of your life?
Speaker 01 (14:21):
Oh, of course.
Yeah.
I mean, Jackie, I mean, it gotharder as, as we got older
because it's just, you know, shejust, like I said, she just was
completely different personwhen she was drinking, but when
she was little, we were very,very, very close and she slept
in my bed and she was, you know,I was six years older than her.
So she was attached to me for atime and we had wonderful times
(14:45):
together.
I mean, we went on family tripsand we all can remember.
the old jackie or the realjackie right and there's people
in my life like my husband neverreally met that jackie and so
that's something that my sistersand dad and i hold really
precious is that we know like weknow who she was and some
people may see her and think ohthat she was crazy or she looked
(15:08):
drunk or whatever it was but weknow the real her so The
relationship was and is stillvery important in my life
because I still have her pictureright here next to me on my
desk.
I talk to her all the time.
I tell my son about her.
So she will always beimportant.
Speaker 02 (15:24):
I think it's that gap between the real person and
the person that they've become.
I think that's what makesambiguous loss so difficult
because you're mourning forsomething that used to be.
Yeah.
But at some point it could alsobe again.
And so there's that combinationof mourning and hope.
That's just awful, awful.
Speaker 01 (15:45):
It really is.
And it leads to so many, Imean, like I said, I didn't
understand my emotions for somany years.
It was anger and stress andsadness and just name the
emotion.
And it was there in a big ballinside of me because yeah,
there's nothing you can do aboutit.
There's no ritual.
It's just, you just have to sitwith it.
Speaker 02 (16:05):
Now, how was that different from the anticipatory
grief that you suffered inpreparing for losing your
mother?
You knew what was happeningwith your mother.
There were no surprises there.
Speaker 01 (16:15):
It didn't soften the blow.
I'll tell you that.
No,
Speaker 02 (16:18):
that's not my intention.
But ambiguous loss andanticipatory grief are not quite
the same thing, although Iwould say they're related.
Speaker 01 (16:25):
Definitely related.
I think the anticipatory griefwith my mom is you know and
sitting there and knowingexactly what's coming down the
road right so there was nomoment there was no moment of
shock really i mean obviouslywhen it happened it was more of
just a deep sadness i would saywhereas with jackie even though
(16:45):
i had that sort of ambiguousloss of grieving her all those
years it was such a shock it wasjust a different kind of thing
and but i think part ofambiguous loss is almost like
you're brain and your body andevery you're preparing yourself
for something that may happen sowe had that with us you know we
all did because it had beenthere for so long so i think it
(17:08):
probably colored the grief alittle bit
Speaker 02 (17:12):
i was thinking that anticipatory grief comes with a
certain sense of release at theend for the person who's gone
and and relief for the peoplewho have to live with it and who
have been giving care and areworking themselves down.
I've taken some flack fortalking about relief, but I can
(17:34):
tell you in the case of mymother and in the case of my
father, both of whom we lost toAlzheimer's and in some sense to
my daughter, my daughter'sgrief was more ambiguous because
we always knew something couldhappen.
She had a heart condition andshe had...
epilepsy and autism.
We always knew something couldhappen, but when it did happen,
it was different than when myparents happened.
And in each case, I would stilltalk about a certain release
(17:56):
for them from the waiting and arelief for us because now we no
longer had to do the horriblethings and we could focus on
remembering the good things.
Speaker 01 (18:10):
I think that's a hundred percent true.
And I, I mean, I know people, Ican see why people would give
you flack, but I a hundredpercent don't think that should
be the case.
I've heard many, many peopletalk about that, like sense of
not relief, like, oh,hallelujah.
It's not that it's more justeven after hospice with our mom,
like, of course we were buckledto our knees, devastated, but
(18:34):
But the fact that we could throwthe morphine away, you know, we
could maybe sleep maybe alittle bit.
It was a sense of like, okay,now we can grieve her, right?
And not have this other stuffthat's just so hard.
So I totally understand that.
Speaker 02 (18:52):
My daughter would go to sleep at night and I'd wake
up in the middle of the nightand just go look at her, make
sure everything was moving.
Of course, it There was no needto.
It was silly.
But that was the kind oftension that I was under.
She had this harmonica that sheloved to play with.
When I woke up in the morningto her banging on the harmonica,
I'm thinking, well, that'sgood.
Not really.
I mean, you know, but as aparent, you know, better they
(19:16):
should make a lot of noise thanthe alternative.
So I totally get that.
And for those who want to giveme flack, I'll take it.
But there is a certain...
relief there and it allows meto go on and remember the good
stuff because there's tons ofgood stuff and be unfettered by
the bad stuff.
So here you go.
Speaker 01 (19:37):
I think that's true.
And I think with my sister too,one of the phrases that I
really don't like in grief is atleast they're not suffering or
they're in a better place.
You know, those things areupsetting to me.
And of course, with my sister,I would hear that occasionally.
And obviously I'd rather haveher hear the But not having to
worry about her constantly,which I did for years and years
(19:58):
and years, and have my dad worryabout her constantly and fear
every phone call and fly out tosit by her hospital bed.
To not have to do that, thereis kind of a sense of peace, I
guess you could say.
Speaker 02 (20:12):
Yes, that's better.
I'll accept that.
It's better than relief.
I often think of it as sort ofjust a...
You know, a big sigh of, well,that's over.
But in a way that's positive.
I want to think of the goodthings.
I want her to be with me everysingle minute, and I want her
laughing and smiling.
(20:32):
And I have that now.
Speaker 01 (20:34):
Yeah, I agree.
I understand that 100%.
People need to talk about moreis that kind of sense of like,
okay, now you can live with thegood memories.
Absolutely.
Unknown (20:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 02 (20:47):
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This program is a presentationof Hearts Unite the Globe and is
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(21:07):
If you would like access tofree resources pertaining to the
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and much, much more.
Dina, you're a professionalauthor.
(21:29):
Tell us about the kind ofwriting you do and why you wrote
So Sorry for Your Loss.
Speaker 01 (21:35):
So I've been a journalist and author, gosh,
it's been years.
It's all I've ever wanted to dosince I was Honestly, little.
It took a while to get to thepoint where I could call myself
a professional writer.
I waited a lot of tables.
I had all kinds of jobs andwrote on the side.
But then my first book waspublished in 2015.
(21:56):
And I did a lot of journalism,reported pieces.
I started writing some humor, alot of personal essays about my
own life.
But then I would write aboutjust people I find fascinating.
I did a lot of culture andentertainment writing.
I never wrote about grief.
until about a year after my momdied.
And I wrote an essay about her.
(22:17):
And then I started noticingwhen I would write about grief,
how many people wanted to sharetheir stories.
And it really struck me.
And so a couple months after mysister died, I started
thinking, okay, I have these twodeep losses back to back.
And maybe I have something toadd to the conversation or the
bookshelf with my experiences.
(22:38):
And I wanted to add some humorand make it part memoir, part
reported.
And so I thought, okay, maybe Ican, maybe there's a book about
grief in me.
And so I started working on it.
Speaker 02 (22:49):
Well, I'm glad you did.
There's, you definitely have alot to add to the conversation.
I've met you now twice, butanyone who knows you, I think
would know that you havesomething to say and it's worth
listening to, which is notcommon, not around these parts.
Speaker 01 (23:04):
Thank you.
Yeah.
I just, there's so manywonderful grief books.
I guess I just, I wanted to putsomething out there that As a
journalist, I wanted to learnmore about it.
So I didn't want it to be onlymy story, although my story is
kind of the thread that connectsit all.
But I wanted to learn moreabout, I mean, there's a chapter
on pet loss.
There's a chapter on hospice.
There's a chapter on food andgrief, signs and symbols that
(23:26):
get us through.
And so I just really wanted toexplore it as a journalist.
And it helped me a lot to learnto accept it in my life.
Speaker 02 (23:35):
Well, I'm going to just add anyone who's ever sat
shiva knows all about theconnection between food and
grief.
Speaker 01 (23:40):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 02 (23:42):
You talked about learning along the way.
What's the greatest lesson youlearned from putting your book
together?
Speaker 01 (23:45):
Oh, my gosh.
There's so many.
You know, one of them islearning to, as I guess the
experts call it, integratinggrief into your life.
And I think when this wholething first started for me, I
thought, okay, you grieve.
There's five stages.
You're always going to missthem, but you'll move on.
(24:07):
I think I just had that kind oftypical view.
And then once you're thrustinto it, you realize, okay,
there's no five stages.
And this is something that'sgoing to be with you every
minute of every day.
But that doesn't mean you havea joyless life.
And so that was a huge...
learning curve for me tounderstand that like, oh, I'm
(24:27):
now a person forever more thatcarries grief along with me
every single day of my life.
But I have a ton of joy.
I'm happy in my life.
But I think that really wassomething that I did not expect.
Speaker 02 (24:41):
Well, I appreciate what you said about joy because
my mother, for example, had awicked sense of humor.
She and my aunt and I couldtrade jokes that we could never
tell in good company.
And when I think of my mothernow, you know, it's been less
than a year, but when I think ofmy mother now, I like to think
about the times when we laughed.
One of my earliest memories, Iwas just a baby.
(25:03):
I don't know what was going on.
My mother was on the phone andlaughing and it seemed like
forever.
And that was such a greatmoment.
And I...
I carry that with me because Iwant to smile when I think about
mom.
I want to smile when I thinkabout dad.
And I certainly want to smilewhen I think about my daughter.
So it's really, reallyimportant that you talk about
(25:23):
that.
And I'm glad that you talkedabout, you thought you'd move
on, but you really don't.
The tagline for many years onthis program is, Moving forward
is not moving away because youdon't really move on.
You continue going forwardbecause that's life and that's
time.
But you always have somebodywith you now that you've
integrated into your being in away that you hadn't before.
Speaker 01 (25:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think when my mom first died,somebody had said to me, oh,
you know, the grief never leavesyou.
And I was so mad.
I was like, how dare they?
What a rude thing to say.
But now, of course, Iunderstand that they were right.
But at the time it was, I waslike, why would they be so rude?
Like they're cursing me orsomething.
But As any person who liveswith grief knows, it doesn't
just fly away somewhere and norshould it, right?
(26:07):
Because then you're notremembering your person.
Speaker 02 (26:09):
Exactly.
We also know that people tendto say horrific things in the
name of being kind or beingthoughtful because they feel
they have to say something.
Now, I accept that and I don'tmind it as much as I used to,
but some of our more religiousconversations, people have
brought up Job and I love thatbecause For anyone who remembers
(26:31):
the book of Job, his threefriends were excellent for the
first week when they sat thereand said nothing.
And then they got up and ruinedit by talking.
And the point is that knowingwhat to say or what not to say
is very, very difficult,especially if you've never
experienced your own loss.
So I forgive those people.
I do.
But it's hard when you're inyour own grief to accept some of
(26:55):
the horrible things that peoplesay in the name of being nice
because they're just dumb.
Speaker 01 (26:58):
yeah it is it it is hard and that's what the reason
the book is called so sorry foryour loss is because that phrase
used to make me so angry aftermy mom died and people would you
know write it on Facebook orsay it they'd say so sorry for
your loss condolences and itjust felt that it didn't reflect
my pain and it felt very clicheand it made me so mad and part
(27:23):
of the other learning curve ofthe book is realizing people do
not know how to talk about this.
And so they just say theconvenient phrase because
they're so scared to upset you.
But what I appreciated whenpeople would say like, this is
so tragic, how heartbreaking.
Cause to me that felt thatreflected how I felt.
I was like, Oh yes it is.
Thank you.
It is tragic and horrible.
(27:44):
But I understand, like I kindof came around to understand
that like people really don'tknow what to say, which is why
we should be talking about itmore.
Speaker 02 (27:52):
We should, and I think we should also spread the
word that a lot of times sayingnothing is better.
We had a guest, a rabbi, earlyon in the program, and I asked
him, what do you say to people?
How do you start aconversation?
And he said, tell me about yourloved one.
Speaker 03 (28:10):
Yes.
Speaker 02 (28:11):
Because that takes the onus off of the questioner.
Speaker 03 (28:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 02 (28:14):
And then you'll talk about what you want to talk
about, and they won't sayanything stupid for the rest of
the conversation.
Unknown (28:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (28:21):
That's, to me, I love when people say, what was
your sister's name?
Or telling me about your mom,instead of feeling like they
have to make some bigproclamation like that.
It makes me so happy whenpeople just ask their name.
It's so wonderful because it'ssuch an acknowledgement and then
you get to talk about them.
And so I agree with the rabbi.
Speaker 02 (28:38):
He's my brother.
I'll pass it on.
Speaker 01 (28:41):
Oh, perfect.
He's doing a good job.
Speaker 02 (28:44):
Yes.
Before we leave, let's talkabout where people can find your
book or books.
Speaker 01 (28:50):
They can find it really anywhere books are sold.
So your local bookstore, I lovethat your producer found my
book at one of our localbookstores, Larkin Owl.
That's amazing.
And you can get it online.
So Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes andNoble, anywhere you would
normally either walk in or clickand order, you can find it.
Speaker 02 (29:10):
Well, be sure to put that in the show notes where we
can click and order.
The book again is called SoSorry for Your Loss.
Dina, thank you so much forjoining us on Bereaved But Still
Me.
Speaker 01 (29:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 02 (29:22):
And that concludes this episode of Bereaved But
Still Me.
I want to thank Dina Gashmanfor sharing her experiences with
us.
Please join us at the beginningof the month for a brand new
podcast.
I'll talk with you soon, butuntil then, please remember,
moving forward is not movingaway.
Speaker 00 (29:37):
Join us again next month for a brand new episode of
Bereaved But Still Me.
It's an excruciating way for you to
live.
So it's this really toughconflict of like, of course you
don't want them to go.
But by the end of the eightdays, my sisters and I were
like, I don't know if we can dothis another night.
Like it just really saps you ofeverything.
So that was probably thetoughest eight days of my life
for sure.
Michael Liben (00:22):
Welcome, friends, to Bereaved But Still Me.
The purpose of our podcast isto empower members of our
community.
I'm Michael Lieben, and thefather of three children, Liel,
Sapir, and Idan.
Liel, my youngest daughter, wasborn with a heart defect, and
later she developed autism andepilepsy.
Losing her at 15 is what hasbrought me here to be the host
of this program.
Our guest today is DenaGashman.
(00:43):
She is a Pulitzer Centergrantee and an award-winning
journalist.
She writes for The New YorkTimes, Vox, Texas Monthly, Teen
Vogue, Vanity Fair, TheGuardian, The New York Times
Magazine, and more.
She also writes a monthly moviecolumn for The New York Times.
Publishers Weekly calls hersecond book of essays, So Sorry
for Your Loss, a poignantpersonal exploration of grief.
(01:04):
She studied English literatureat UCLA.
and has appeared on ABC's 2020,CBS' We Are Austin, Chicago's
WGN, and Texas Standard.
She's written two comic booksfor Blue Water Comics about
legendary superheroes MarilynMonroe and Elizabeth Taylor.
She lives near Austin, Texaswith her husband and son.
My executive producer, AnnaJaworski, discovered Dina's
(01:26):
book, So Sorry for Your Loss, atthe Larkin Owl Bookstore in
Georgetown, Texas, and she wastouched by how Dina and she both
lost their mothers in 2018.
Dina, thank you so much forjoining us on Bereaved But Still
Me.
Dina Gachman (01:39):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 02 (01:40):
Let's start by talking about your mother.
What did she discover and when?
Speaker 01 (01:44):
My mom was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer in
the spring of 2015, and it wasabout five weeks before my
wedding.
So that's when she got thediagnosis.
We didn't really know what toexpect.
We sort of hoped that there wasgoing to be a cure and that
she'd be fine.
We didn't really know what thatcolon cancer meant when she
(02:05):
Really, typically you have aboutfive years.
And then she was on chemo anddid all kinds of procedures
until the fall of 2018 when shedied.
Speaker 02 (02:18):
I think a lot of families, when they find out
that someone in the family or aparent has cancer, there's
always that moment of, well,maybe it's not like everybody
else.
Maybe this will be different.
Maybe there'll be a cure.
I sense that you had sort ofthat ongoing hope, right?
Can you talk about that for asecond?
Speaker 01 (02:37):
We did.
I mean, I come from a very,very close family.
My parents were high schoolsweethearts.
I'm the oldest of fourdaughters.
And so the diagnosis wasextremely devastating for us as
it is for anyone who has a lovedone that hears that.
But we definitely held out hopeuntil the very end.
I think as the years went on,it was about three and a half
(03:00):
years to four years that she wason chemo.
As the years went on, westarted to understand that,
okay, this isn't there's not amiracle cure.
And we started to grapple withthat and try and accept it.
But at the beginning, we verymuch thought in a year, we're
going to have a mom beats cancerparty.
We even put that in ouriPhones.
It's like a good little goodluck thing.
And we really were like, okay,she's going to, you know, as
(03:22):
people say, beat this and she'llbe fine in a year.
And we're going to look backand just think, oh, you know, we
really got through that and itwould be fine.
That's what we thought.
Speaker 02 (03:31):
Well, you have other sisters.
How are they taking this withyou?
Speaker 01 (03:34):
I'm the oldest and we were all devastated.
My third in line sister, Jackiesuffered from alcoholism for
decades.
And so when our mom wasdiagnosed, Jackie was not doing
well.
She wasn't what some peopleterm like a functioning
alcoholic.
I mean, when she was drinking,it was just a whole different
(03:55):
person.
It was very hard to connectwith her.
So Jackie kind of dealt with itin her own way.
She was living in New York, faraway from us.
And then my other two sisters,Amy and Catherine and I, just we
really banded together.
We texted constantly.
We tried to help our mom.
We tried to help our dad.
So we just, you know, we werealready close.
It brought us a lot closer.
(04:16):
But with Jackie, it was toughbecause she just couldn't, she
just didn't have the ability toreally be present.
Speaker 02 (04:24):
I can think about other families I know where
there's a always somebody who'sgot something on their plates
that sort of keeps them fromparticipating.
I'm not talking aboutalcoholism, about other things,
but there's a line there betweenwhat you can do and what you
want to do.
And I often wondered about thepeople who are more on spot with
(04:45):
what they thought if they hadan issue with that.
Speaker 01 (04:49):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know,everyone grieves differently,
obviously.
And so even without somethinglike alcohol, In the mix, there
could be somebody in the familythat just doesn't want to face
it, doesn't want to talk aboutit.
Maybe they go into work mode.
But I think all of us were verymuch like trying to be there
for her.
I was living in California.
(05:10):
I flew to Houston as much aspossible to just be with her
during those years.
So I think I kind of startedreconnecting with Texas because
I had lived away so long just bycoming home and seeing her.
Speaker 02 (05:21):
In your book, you have a chapter called The Long
Goodbye.
Tell us a little bit about thehospice experience with your
mother.
Speaker 01 (05:30):
It was very difficult.
Anyone who's experiencedhospice with a loved one,
whether it's at home, which wehad, or in a hospital, knows how
agonizing it can be.
But she was still doing herchemo, which, you know, the
chemo had sent her into thehospital multiple times over the
years.
It was just very rough on thebody.
(05:51):
And this was...
Like early November, 2018, sheeven had an experimental
procedure set up, but she justwasn't doing well.
And I was actually in Houstonand the day I left, she was
really, really sick.
I went back home and like a dayor two later, she went into the
hospital and they basicallyfound out that her colon had
(06:11):
torn and there was nothing theycould do.
That was kind of the end.
And so then I flew right backand that's when.
Basically, our choice was shestays in the hospital or we
bring her home.
So we chose to bring her homeand just get her out of the
hospital with the beeps andwaking her up every, you know,
two hours or what it was.
But it was it was incrediblydifficult.
(06:32):
And we had no idea what toexpect in America.
It depends on what yourinsurance is, if you have
insurance.
And, you know, what my parentshad was meant that my sister and
I, like we would be giving themedication and we would be
basically there with her and anurse would come by maybe twice
a day, if that.
So we were very shocked,totally shocked by that.
(06:52):
We thought it would be like amovie, you know, where there's a
nurse there all the timehelping us.
And that was 100% not the case.
Speaker 02 (06:58):
Excuse me for giggling, but I definitely,
yeah, I get that.
Speaker 01 (07:02):
Oh, for sure.
I mean, the chapter has humorin it because I don't know how
else you can sort of face thisand also read about it without
some dark humor.
So we were completely...
just exhausted and I barelyknew what day it was.
So it was eight days of at-homehospice.
And it was, I say this in thebook, but the thing about
hospice is you don't want yourperson to die, obviously, but
(07:25):
then watching them slowly die isexcruciating.
It's an excruciating way foryou to live.
So it's this really toughconflict of like, of course you
don't want them to go.
But by the end of the eightdays, my sisters and I were
like, I don't know if we can dothis another night.
Like it just really saps you ofeverything.
So That was probably thetoughest eight days of my life,
(07:45):
for sure.
Speaker 02 (07:46):
What was the learning curve like?
I mean, it's not just givingmedication, and I'm pretty sure
medication isn't just a pill.
So what did you have to learnto be home with her in hospice?
Speaker 01 (07:56):
Yeah, it was like a liquid morphine.
So we had to make a chart,which was very illegible.
Speaker 03 (08:01):
Because
Speaker 01 (08:01):
none of us are super type A.
So a barely legible chart wherewe could just remember like,
okay, every two hours we have todo this.
And it was terrifying becausethat responsibility of like,
what if we are five minutes lateor what if we lose it?
It was a horribleresponsibility to try and keep
her out of pain.
But we learned and we figuredout how to do it.
(08:22):
We did lose the morphine oneday, which was terrifying
Speaker 02 (08:25):
and
Speaker 01 (08:26):
led to some dark
Speaker 02 (08:26):
comedy.
What was that like?
Unknown (08:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (08:29):
well we had a cabinet we put it in because my
nephew was really youngobviously we were going to put
it in a high cabinet and we wentto get it and we couldn't i
mean it was absolutelyterrifying we were like beside
ourselves i literally wentoutside it was in the evening
and dug in the trash cans likeno i mean yeah i was digging in
the trash cans our family friendcame and saw me digging through
(08:50):
the trash can and we found itit was on the table by her bed
the whole time um one of usthat's
Speaker 02 (08:56):
where it always is right
Speaker 01 (08:57):
No, we put it in a high cabinet.
I know, but
Speaker 02 (09:00):
it's always
Speaker 01 (09:01):
where you don't expect it, right?
Exactly.
We did not expect it to bethere.
So it was very scary.
My heart still races when Ithink about it.
Speaker 03 (09:08):
Sure.
Speaker 01 (09:09):
But the learning curve was just, I guess,
learning to sit with it reallywas the hardest thing.
And it meaning the fact thatour mom is dying in the house.
And we got to hold her hand.
We got to say everything weneeded and more.
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (09:28):
You are listening to Bereaved But Still Me.
If you have a question orcomment that you would like
addressed on our program, pleasesend an email to Michael Lieben
at michael atbereavedbutstillme.com.
That's michael atbereavedbutstillme.com.
This content is not intended tobe a substitute for
(09:50):
professional medical advice,diagnosis, or treatment.
The opinions expressed in thepodcast are not those of Hearts
Unite the Globe, but of thehosts and guests, and are
intended to spark discussionabout issues pertaining to
congenital heart disease orbereavement.
Speaker 02 (10:09):
In the first part, we talked about you and your
family losing your belovedmother, but you have another
massive loss that you'vesuffered.
Tell us more about that.
Speaker 01 (10:17):
So my mom died in the fall of 2018.
And then at the very beginningof 2021, my sister Jackie, who
suffered from alcoholism, died.
She was 39.
And thank you.
And she had suffered for yearsand years and years to the point
where she was constantly inrehabs and detoxes.
People were constantly sendingme messages like, your sister's
(10:37):
sleeping in a park.
I mean, it was bad.
And so we had always fearedgetting the call.
I call it the call, like in allcaps.
Sure.
but it never came thankgoodness and for the year before
she died she actually got sobershe finally got sober again and
it was wonderful and we weretalking all the time and she was
(10:58):
back to herself and we laughedand we were trying to plan a
trip to get together so when wegot the call it was i don't know
it was a shock well because shehad sort of disappeared for
maybe about five days, so weknew what was going on.
But it was a call that itactually happened, the thing
that we feared for yearsactually happened, and so soon
(11:20):
after our mom.
So we were all completely justhad no idea even how to take
that first step into that secondgrief.
Speaker 02 (11:28):
Do you think that it was somehow related that she
had to deal with her mother'sloss and on top of everything
else she had to live with?
Speaker 01 (11:36):
I'm sure that...
that didn't help and that's oneof the hard things about losing
somebody in this way you knowmy sister was alone in a hotel
room when she died and
Speaker 03 (11:45):
we
Speaker 01 (11:46):
have no way of knowing what her last days and
hours were like we just willnever ever ever know i ha i know
who she texted i actually madesome calls but i don't know i
don't you know it's very hard tosay i know we've my dad my
other sisters and i have allracked our brains of like what
could we have done could we havetexted more or what was going
(12:06):
through her mind.
But the hard part of this kindof loss is like, you just have
to kind of accept that you'rejust never going to know.
And that's not easy.
Speaker 02 (12:14):
No, it's not.
But I want to just add therethat I don't think you should be
beating yourself up over this.
I don't think it's the sort ofthing where you can say, what
could I have done?
Whatever it was, was, andthat's part of the acceptance.
But I don't think you have towalk around the rest of your
life thinking it could bedifferent if only I had, because
you didn't.
And it doesn't matter.
Speaker 01 (12:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's very true.
And I appreciate you sayingthat.
And that's something that we'veall definitely come to terms
with.
I mean, it took us a while, ofcourse, my dad, especially
because they were super closeand she told him everything.
I mean, she always called whenshe was in trouble.
And so he, of course, reallybeat himself up.
But now we've, we've come tothat realization that like
(12:54):
there's on, there's nothing wecould have done.
Speaker 02 (12:59):
Let's talk a little bit about a term that you gave
me when we first met, ambiguousloss, which is not necessarily
the loss like death.
So talk more about that withyou and your sister.
Speaker 01 (13:10):
So I learned about ambiguous loss as I was doing
research for the book.
And I interviewed a lot ofpeople in the book, both
professionals, so palliativecare physicians and therapists.
And then I also talked to justregular people about their
losses.
And one of the people I talkedto was my friend Al.
And She had lost her dad, andhe had actually been kidnapped,
(13:30):
and it was pretty bad.
And so she told me aboutambiguous loss, and she said
that when she learned that term,it helped her process what she
had been feeling about her dadall those years.
And when she explained it tome, it made so much sense.
It's basically a grief thathappens not from a death, but
from...
change in the relationship sowhether it's substance abuse or
(13:53):
mental health or an estrangementor in her case you know a
kidnapping there's no funeralright there's no death but
you're feeling grief you'refeeling bereft and it really
helped me once i learned thatunderstand all the emotions that
went along with loving mysister all those years it was
very helpful
Speaker 02 (14:15):
would you say that your relationship with her was
an important piece of your life?
Speaker 01 (14:21):
Oh, of course.
Yeah.
I mean, Jackie, I mean, it gotharder as, as we got older
because it's just, you know, shejust, like I said, she just was
completely different personwhen she was drinking, but when
she was little, we were very,very, very close and she slept
in my bed and she was, you know,I was six years older than her.
So she was attached to me for atime and we had wonderful times
(14:45):
together.
I mean, we went on family tripsand we all can remember.
the old jackie or the realjackie right and there's people
in my life like my husband neverreally met that jackie and so
that's something that my sistersand dad and i hold really
precious is that we know like weknow who she was and some
people may see her and think ohthat she was crazy or she looked
(15:08):
drunk or whatever it was but weknow the real her so The
relationship was and is stillvery important in my life
because I still have her pictureright here next to me on my
desk.
I talk to her all the time.
I tell my son about her.
So she will always beimportant.
Speaker 02 (15:24):
I think it's that gap between the real person and
the person that they've become.
I think that's what makesambiguous loss so difficult
because you're mourning forsomething that used to be.
Yeah.
But at some point it could alsobe again.
And so there's that combinationof mourning and hope.
That's just awful, awful.
Speaker 01 (15:45):
It really is.
And it leads to so many, Imean, like I said, I didn't
understand my emotions for somany years.
It was anger and stress andsadness and just name the
emotion.
And it was there in a big ballinside of me because yeah,
there's nothing you can do aboutit.
There's no ritual.
It's just, you just have to sitwith it.
Speaker 02 (16:05):
Now, how was that different from the anticipatory
grief that you suffered inpreparing for losing your
mother?
You knew what was happeningwith your mother.
There were no surprises there.
Speaker 01 (16:15):
It didn't soften the blow.
I'll tell you that.
No,
Speaker 02 (16:18):
that's not my intention.
But ambiguous loss andanticipatory grief are not quite
the same thing, although Iwould say they're related.
Speaker 01 (16:25):
Definitely related.
I think the anticipatory griefwith my mom is you know and
sitting there and knowingexactly what's coming down the
road right so there was nomoment there was no moment of
shock really i mean obviouslywhen it happened it was more of
just a deep sadness i would saywhereas with jackie even though
(16:45):
i had that sort of ambiguousloss of grieving her all those
years it was such a shock it wasjust a different kind of thing
and but i think part ofambiguous loss is almost like
you're brain and your body andevery you're preparing yourself
for something that may happen sowe had that with us you know we
all did because it had beenthere for so long so i think it
(17:08):
probably colored the grief alittle bit
Speaker 02 (17:12):
i was thinking that anticipatory grief comes with a
certain sense of release at theend for the person who's gone
and and relief for the peoplewho have to live with it and who
have been giving care and areworking themselves down.
I've taken some flack fortalking about relief, but I can
(17:34):
tell you in the case of mymother and in the case of my
father, both of whom we lost toAlzheimer's and in some sense to
my daughter, my daughter'sgrief was more ambiguous because
we always knew something couldhappen.
She had a heart condition andshe had...
epilepsy and autism.
We always knew something couldhappen, but when it did happen,
it was different than when myparents happened.
And in each case, I would stilltalk about a certain release
(17:56):
for them from the waiting and arelief for us because now we no
longer had to do the horriblethings and we could focus on
remembering the good things.
Speaker 01 (18:10):
I think that's a hundred percent true.
And I, I mean, I know people, Ican see why people would give
you flack, but I a hundredpercent don't think that should
be the case.
I've heard many, many peopletalk about that, like sense of
not relief, like, oh,hallelujah.
It's not that it's more justeven after hospice with our mom,
like, of course we were buckledto our knees, devastated, but
(18:34):
But the fact that we could throwthe morphine away, you know, we
could maybe sleep maybe alittle bit.
It was a sense of like, okay,now we can grieve her, right?
And not have this other stuffthat's just so hard.
So I totally understand that.
Speaker 02 (18:52):
My daughter would go to sleep at night and I'd wake
up in the middle of the nightand just go look at her, make
sure everything was moving.
Of course, it There was no needto.
It was silly.
But that was the kind oftension that I was under.
She had this harmonica that sheloved to play with.
When I woke up in the morningto her banging on the harmonica,
I'm thinking, well, that'sgood.
Not really.
I mean, you know, but as aparent, you know, better they
(19:16):
should make a lot of noise thanthe alternative.
So I totally get that.
And for those who want to giveme flack, I'll take it.
But there is a certain...
relief there and it allows meto go on and remember the good
stuff because there's tons ofgood stuff and be unfettered by
the bad stuff.
So here you go.
Speaker 01 (19:37):
I think that's true.
And I think with my sister too,one of the phrases that I
really don't like in grief is atleast they're not suffering or
they're in a better place.
You know, those things areupsetting to me.
And of course, with my sister,I would hear that occasionally.
And obviously I'd rather haveher hear the But not having to
worry about her constantly,which I did for years and years
(19:58):
and years, and have my dad worryabout her constantly and fear
every phone call and fly out tosit by her hospital bed.
To not have to do that, thereis kind of a sense of peace, I
guess you could say.
Speaker 02 (20:12):
Yes, that's better.
I'll accept that.
It's better than relief.
I often think of it as sort ofjust a...
You know, a big sigh of, well,that's over.
But in a way that's positive.
I want to think of the goodthings.
I want her to be with me everysingle minute, and I want her
laughing and smiling.
(20:32):
And I have that now.
Speaker 01 (20:34):
Yeah, I agree.
I understand that 100%.
People need to talk about moreis that kind of sense of like,
okay, now you can live with thegood memories.
Absolutely.
Unknown (20:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 02 (20:47):
If you've enjoyed listening to this program,
please visit our website,heartsunitetheglobe.org and make
a contribution.
This program is a presentationof Hearts Unite the Globe and is
part of the Hug PodcastNetwork.
Hearts Unite the Globe is anon-profit organization devoted
to providing resources to thecongenital heart defect
community to educate, empower,and enrich the lives of our
community members.
(21:07):
If you would like access tofree resources pertaining to the
CHD community, please visit ourwebsite at
congenitalheartdefects.com forinformation about CHD, hospitals
that treat CHD survivors,summer camps for CHD families,
and much, much more.
Dina, you're a professionalauthor.
(21:29):
Tell us about the kind ofwriting you do and why you wrote
So Sorry for Your Loss.
Speaker 01 (21:35):
So I've been a journalist and author, gosh,
it's been years.
It's all I've ever wanted to dosince I was Honestly, little.
It took a while to get to thepoint where I could call myself
a professional writer.
I waited a lot of tables.
I had all kinds of jobs andwrote on the side.
But then my first book waspublished in 2015.
(21:56):
And I did a lot of journalism,reported pieces.
I started writing some humor, alot of personal essays about my
own life.
But then I would write aboutjust people I find fascinating.
I did a lot of culture andentertainment writing.
I never wrote about grief.
until about a year after my momdied.
And I wrote an essay about her.
(22:17):
And then I started noticingwhen I would write about grief,
how many people wanted to sharetheir stories.
And it really struck me.
And so a couple months after mysister died, I started
thinking, okay, I have these twodeep losses back to back.
And maybe I have something toadd to the conversation or the
bookshelf with my experiences.
(22:38):
And I wanted to add some humorand make it part memoir, part
reported.
And so I thought, okay, maybe Ican, maybe there's a book about
grief in me.
And so I started working on it.
Speaker 02 (22:49):
Well, I'm glad you did.
There's, you definitely have alot to add to the conversation.
I've met you now twice, butanyone who knows you, I think
would know that you havesomething to say and it's worth
listening to, which is notcommon, not around these parts.
Speaker 01 (23:04):
Thank you.
Yeah.
I just, there's so manywonderful grief books.
I guess I just, I wanted to putsomething out there that As a
journalist, I wanted to learnmore about it.
So I didn't want it to be onlymy story, although my story is
kind of the thread that connectsit all.
But I wanted to learn moreabout, I mean, there's a chapter
on pet loss.
There's a chapter on hospice.
There's a chapter on food andgrief, signs and symbols that
(23:26):
get us through.
And so I just really wanted toexplore it as a journalist.
And it helped me a lot to learnto accept it in my life.
Speaker 02 (23:35):
Well, I'm going to just add anyone who's ever sat
shiva knows all about theconnection between food and
grief.
Speaker 01 (23:40):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 02 (23:42):
You talked about learning along the way.
What's the greatest lesson youlearned from putting your book
together?
Speaker 01 (23:45):
Oh, my gosh.
There's so many.
You know, one of them islearning to, as I guess the
experts call it, integratinggrief into your life.
And I think when this wholething first started for me, I
thought, okay, you grieve.
There's five stages.
You're always going to missthem, but you'll move on.
(24:07):
I think I just had that kind oftypical view.
And then once you're thrustinto it, you realize, okay,
there's no five stages.
And this is something that'sgoing to be with you every
minute of every day.
But that doesn't mean you havea joyless life.
And so that was a huge...
learning curve for me tounderstand that like, oh, I'm
(24:27):
now a person forever more thatcarries grief along with me
every single day of my life.
But I have a ton of joy.
I'm happy in my life.
But I think that really wassomething that I did not expect.
Speaker 02 (24:41):
Well, I appreciate what you said about joy because
my mother, for example, had awicked sense of humor.
She and my aunt and I couldtrade jokes that we could never
tell in good company.
And when I think of my mothernow, you know, it's been less
than a year, but when I think ofmy mother now, I like to think
about the times when we laughed.
One of my earliest memories, Iwas just a baby.
(25:03):
I don't know what was going on.
My mother was on the phone andlaughing and it seemed like
forever.
And that was such a greatmoment.
And I...
I carry that with me because Iwant to smile when I think about
mom.
I want to smile when I thinkabout dad.
And I certainly want to smilewhen I think about my daughter.
So it's really, reallyimportant that you talk about
(25:23):
that.
And I'm glad that you talkedabout, you thought you'd move
on, but you really don't.
The tagline for many years onthis program is, Moving forward
is not moving away because youdon't really move on.
You continue going forwardbecause that's life and that's
time.
But you always have somebodywith you now that you've
integrated into your being in away that you hadn't before.
Speaker 01 (25:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think when my mom first died,somebody had said to me, oh,
you know, the grief never leavesyou.
And I was so mad.
I was like, how dare they?
What a rude thing to say.
But now, of course, Iunderstand that they were right.
But at the time it was, I waslike, why would they be so rude?
Like they're cursing me orsomething.
But As any person who liveswith grief knows, it doesn't
just fly away somewhere and norshould it, right?
(26:07):
Because then you're notremembering your person.
Speaker 02 (26:09):
Exactly.
We also know that people tendto say horrific things in the
name of being kind or beingthoughtful because they feel
they have to say something.
Now, I accept that and I don'tmind it as much as I used to,
but some of our more religiousconversations, people have
brought up Job and I love thatbecause For anyone who remembers
(26:31):
the book of Job, his threefriends were excellent for the
first week when they sat thereand said nothing.
And then they got up and ruinedit by talking.
And the point is that knowingwhat to say or what not to say
is very, very difficult,especially if you've never
experienced your own loss.
So I forgive those people.
I do.
But it's hard when you're inyour own grief to accept some of
(26:55):
the horrible things that peoplesay in the name of being nice
because they're just dumb.
Speaker 01 (26:58):
yeah it is it it is hard and that's what the reason
the book is called so sorry foryour loss is because that phrase
used to make me so angry aftermy mom died and people would you
know write it on Facebook orsay it they'd say so sorry for
your loss condolences and itjust felt that it didn't reflect
my pain and it felt very clicheand it made me so mad and part
(27:23):
of the other learning curve ofthe book is realizing people do
not know how to talk about this.
And so they just say theconvenient phrase because
they're so scared to upset you.
But what I appreciated whenpeople would say like, this is
so tragic, how heartbreaking.
Cause to me that felt thatreflected how I felt.
I was like, Oh yes it is.
Thank you.
It is tragic and horrible.
(27:44):
But I understand, like I kindof came around to understand
that like people really don'tknow what to say, which is why
we should be talking about itmore.
Speaker 02 (27:52):
We should, and I think we should also spread the
word that a lot of times sayingnothing is better.
We had a guest, a rabbi, earlyon in the program, and I asked
him, what do you say to people?
How do you start aconversation?
And he said, tell me about yourloved one.
Speaker 03 (28:10):
Yes.
Speaker 02 (28:11):
Because that takes the onus off of the questioner.
Speaker 03 (28:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 02 (28:14):
And then you'll talk about what you want to talk
about, and they won't sayanything stupid for the rest of
the conversation.
Unknown (28:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (28:21):
That's, to me, I love when people say, what was
your sister's name?
Or telling me about your mom,instead of feeling like they
have to make some bigproclamation like that.
It makes me so happy whenpeople just ask their name.
It's so wonderful because it'ssuch an acknowledgement and then
you get to talk about them.
And so I agree with the rabbi.
Speaker 02 (28:38):
He's my brother.
I'll pass it on.
Speaker 01 (28:41):
Oh, perfect.
He's doing a good job.
Speaker 02 (28:44):
Yes.
Before we leave, let's talkabout where people can find your
book or books.
Speaker 01 (28:50):
They can find it really anywhere books are sold.
So your local bookstore, I lovethat your producer found my
book at one of our localbookstores, Larkin Owl.
That's amazing.
And you can get it online.
So Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes andNoble, anywhere you would
normally either walk in or clickand order, you can find it.
Speaker 02 (29:10):
Well, be sure to put that in the show notes where we
can click and order.
The book again is called SoSorry for Your Loss.
Dina, thank you so much forjoining us on Bereaved But Still
Me.
Speaker 01 (29:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 02 (29:22):
And that concludes this episode of Bereaved But
Still Me.
I want to thank Dina Gashmanfor sharing her experiences with
us.
Please join us at the beginningof the month for a brand new
podcast.
I'll talk with you soon, butuntil then, please remember,
moving forward is not movingaway.
Speaker 00 (29:37):
Join us again next month for a brand new episode of
Bereaved But Still Me.
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