February 1, 2024 • 32 mins
Erica Messer talks with Bereaved But Still Me host Michael Liben about pet loss and how she wasn’t able to find resources to help her cope with her grief. After losing her beloved cat, Wolfgang, she discovered a need for pet-loss resources. With her mother’s encouragement, she started Wolfie’s Wish, a company providing resources for those who are grieving the loss of a pet.
Erica’s website: https://wolfieswish.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica Messer (00:00):
I feel so lucky that I had the experience with
(00:03):
him and the bond with him. And Ihope that everyone can find a
heart animal or heart pet intheir lifetime because it's it's
such a beautiful gift.
Michael Liben (00:26):
What relationship do humans have with their pets?
How serious is it for pet loverswhen their pets die? Do humans
go through the same grievingprocess when they lose a pet
than when they go through whenthey lose a loved one? Welcome
to "Bereaved But Still Me". Ourpurpose is to empower members of
our community. I am MichaelLiben the father of three
children - Idan, Sapir, andLiel. Liel, my youngest
(00:48):
daughter, was born with a heartdefect and later developed
autism and epilepsy. Losing her15 is what has brought me here
to be the host of this program.
Comedian George Carlin has saidthat the major problem with
getting pets is that we knowupfront that we're getting into
something that will definitelyend badly. Indeed, when Laila
was a puppy, my daughter Sapirwas very uneasy around the new
(01:11):
dog and I told her that sheshould treat Laila, like her
sister. But at that same moment,I also made myself a new
daughter. Is that a commonexperience for pet owners? This
episode of "Bereaved But StillMe" is going to take a slightly
different turn. Two thirds ofAmericans own pets and that
translates to 86.9 millionhomes. Everyone on the staff
(01:33):
this podcast owns a pet or moreand chances are that most of our
listeners own pets. So itbehooves us - pun intended - to
take a serious look at pet loss.
And yes, nobody's comparing apet to a person and everybody
knows the difference. But forthose of us who have lost both,
we may find the line gets just alittle fuzzy. Our pets have
(01:57):
worked their way into ourhearts, we sweat for them, we
toil for them, we feed them, andwe love them, and we welcome
them into our families. Ourguest today is Erica Messer, who
after the sudden passing of herbeloved cat, Wolfgang embarked
on a heartfelt quest to find asimple way to cope with her
grief. Frustrated by the lack ofproducts and encouraged by her
(02:18):
mother, Bonnie, she created theperfect solution - Pet Loss
Grieving Cards. Thus, "Wolfie'sWish" was born. And the
innovative concept of grievingcards garnered widespread
attention, including receiving aprestigious Best New Product
award at the esteemed SuperZooTrade Show in 2022. Erica finds
joy and solace in her love ofmusic, performing pop and rock
(02:41):
covers on the harp. Withclinical musical training, she
helps people navigate theirgrief through the healing powers
of music. Erica's artistictalents also shine through her
hand painted pet portraits,showcasing her love for animals
and dedication to capturingtheir spirits on canvas. She
both wrote and illustratedcaptivating stories and tales of
spirit pets. Residing in thepicturesque city of Munich,
(03:04):
Germany, Erica shares her lifewith a loving husband and three
cherished feline companions,Peachy, Milli, and Vanilli. In
today's program, we're going tolearn more about Erica, her card
deck, and some advice regardingpet loss. Erica, welcome to
"Bereaved But Still Me".
Erica Messer (03:19):
Thank you.
Michael Liben (03:20):
Let's start by learning more about your first
experience with pet loss. Canyou tell me more about that?
Erica Messer (03:25):
My parents had two dogs, Jute and Jet, that I grew
up with and you know they hadbefore they had kids. And I
remember I was seven years old,and my babysitter picked me up
from school and said, "You know,I have to tell you something,
Jute died today". I guess Jutewas old but no one had talked to
me about death or that she wasgoing to die. And so it really
(03:48):
just kind of came out ofnowhere. And I remember bursting
into tears, even though I didn'treally feel like Jute was my
dog, and she slept outside, Imean, it was a different
dynamic. But I still felt thisbig sense of just like a rug had
been pulled out. And the shockof it all and we buried her.
Like the family didn't talkabout any of it. We just buried
(04:13):
her. She was old. My dad hadfound her outside. And it was
kind of like that's it, next. Itwas very jarring experience.
Michael Liben (04:24):
I think part of that jarring experience isn't
necessarily, in this case, youtold me you didn't think about
her as yours. But there'ssomething regular in your life
about having an animal around,right? You have to take care of
your pet. You have to relate toyour pet. You're there. And so I
think that's enough. How oldwere you when this happened?
Erica Messer (04:43):
Seven.
Michael Liben (04:44):
I think that's enough. You know, you don't
necessarily have to lovesomething to miss it. If it
breaks your routine, and I thinkthat's a lot of it. When Laila
died, and that's recent for us,one of the things we noticed was
that things that she was a partof without our really thinking
about, she was gone, she was nolonger part of those things. I
was sitting down together tohave dinner, she'd sit by me and
(05:08):
expect me to toss her somebread. That stopped happening.
And of course, we did love her,and that was part of the thing
is that we made her,accidentally or not, we made her
part of the family. Once Icalled her a sister to my other
daughters, then she was suddenlymy daughter. And I had to live
with that. And I guess whatCarlin meant when he said, it's
going to end badly and you knowit, from the very first day. We
(05:31):
said before, that your mother,Bonnie, encouraged you to move
into this concept of productsfor pet loss. Is your mother, a
pet lover? And tell us about herexperience with pets and how she
supported your project.
Erica Messer (05:43):
She has such a big heart, and she's a serial cat
owner. So she and my dadactually divorced, and I think
the first thing she did was geta cat. And then it just it would
live out its life. She did adoptthem or find them or they'd find
her. So she was very accustomedto losing them. And she always
said it was hard. They were allburied in the same place in her
(06:05):
yard. It was a little petcemetery in the front yard. But
when Wolfgang died, it wasduring the pandemic and we
hadn't seen each other and she'dnever met Wolfgang, but she knew
how much I loved him because theday that I brought him home, we
were in the bathtub, and it wasjust getting him acclimated to
the bathroom. That was his firstzone. I FaceTimed her and we
(06:27):
both just kind of bonded moreover adopting him. And anyway,
so she understood the pain thatI was going through, especially
with his tragic death, and thatI had to witness. So I would
talk to her every day, I justreally needed that comfort and
regularity of that. And someonethat would understand. So I
(06:47):
would share with her like, "Mom,I didn't know where to look but
I found this and I meditated andI decided to write this letter"
and day after day share with herthese little tools that were
helping me along is when shesaid, "I think you should make
that deck that you couldn't findyou were looking for a pet loss
deck like an affirmation carddeck. Something simple. And it
(07:08):
sounds like you've been doingthat because every day I talk to
you, you've got one new thingthat's helping you just inch a
little bit further on in yourgrief journey". I just said,
"That sounds hard. I don't knowhow". And I'm grieving. Right?
I'm busy. But my mom is gentlypersistent. I would never say
she's a nag. You wouldn't knowit.
Michael Liben (07:32):
You're very kind.
Erica Messer (07:34):
It's true, though.
I'm very lucky in that regard.
Michael Liben (07:37):
Well, she did have a really good eye there.
Because she saw what you weredoing was essentially building
these affirmations by having onemore thing to say every day. She
had a good eye for that. Andthat's to her credit. And we'll
say that she was gentlyencouraging.
Erica Messer (07:53):
Yeah, she was so kind during that whole period
and just listened and was therefor me and showed up for me,
which is what I think everyoneneeds. No matter that type of
loss. We all need someone that'sjust going to be there and nod
like "Yep, I'm here for you, I'mgoing to show up for you day
after day". And that was my mom,for me.
Michael Liben (08:15):
That's very much the same. Also, I think with
human loss, a lot of timespeople come and they want to say
something because they feel theyhave to. And one of the best
things I think is just saynothing. Just be there for the
person. And that's the best youcan do. Because you're
guaranteed to say somethingthat's going to make somebody
feel uncomfortable. But ifyou're just quiet, then the
(08:40):
person who's going through theloss can say what they want to
say or quietly bend theconversation in the direction
that's more comfortable forthem. So I think you're right
about that. You said the tragicway in which you lost Wolfgang,
I didn't know this. Do you wantto tell us about that?
Erica Messer (08:57):
I always hesitate on how specific to be because I
don't want to trigger anyone orinvite trauma on them. But my
friend killed Wolfgang. Sheopened and left the bathroom
window open after we told her wedon't do that. This was her
first time in our house. And shedid it anyway. And I said,
"Wolfgang is obsessed with thiswindow, it's our bathroom
(09:18):
window, if we do open it, wejust hold it. Let the steam out
of the room and then close itbecause it goes out to the
roof". It was in the morning. Itwas like the next morning she'd
taken a shower. And I wasstraightening up because I was
having someone come over and Inoticed the window was just wide
open and I was like -
Michael Liben (09:35):
Oops.
Erica Messer (09:35):
What, why is the window open? Okay, so long story
short. Yeah, he was outside onthe pavement still alive and
couldn't walk. But of course, Itried to stay calm and got his
carrier got an Uber and I hadthe emergency place to go and it
was just like okay, I wanted tothrow up the whole time. I was
(09:56):
like, "This feels like anightmare" but I just went into
handle this mode. I don't evenknow what you call that. But he
died thrashing in the carrierlike, right as we got to the
vet. So it was quite surreal,really. And I can't unlive that,
I can't forget that. And I don'treally want to, I think that's
dangerous for my health. But Ialso try not to dwell on it when
(10:19):
my thoughts go there and replayit like at night. And I just
say, yep, that really happened.
And I put my hand on my heart, Igo, but I'm okay. And tomorrow's
a new day.
Michael Liben (10:31):
Some of our listeners who are not pet owners
are going to wonder why we areinvesting so much time and
energy in this. In your case, Ithink, because you were there
and you witnessed it, and, ofcourse, these animals mean so
much to us, they come into ourhearts. You want to speak to
that?
Erica Messer (10:50):
that we care and love. And I nursed him, he had
eye herpes as a kitten, no onewanted him. And then to just
boom, it's gone. And hesuffered, and I had to watch him
suffer, and I couldn't doanything, really changes a
(11:14):
person. And pets, you know, I'vehad pets like Jute was part of
our family. She was just alwaysthere, right? I mean, she was
there from the time I had myfirst word, but she wasn't mine.
And she didn't sleep with me.
And she didn't rely on me,Wolfgang was my COVID companion,
that's why I got him. I was withhim 24/7, and I took care of
him, he slept with me, that kindof relationship is different.
(11:37):
I've never really had anythinglike that before. And I think it
was the combination of it beingthe pandemic. And I would say
that he's my heart cat. I didn'tknow what that meant, or I
hadn't heard that term until Istarted looking into pet loss
grief, and heard someone elsesay it. And I instantly knew -
that's what he was, he wasspecial in a different way. And
(12:00):
I really look at it as I feel solucky that I have the experience
with him and the bond with him.
And I hope that everyone canfind a heart animal or heart pet
in their lifetime, because it'sit's such a beautiful gift. So
to explain it, I can't, I thinkpeople that understand will have
(12:24):
lost a pet and probably a heartdog or heart cat or heart rabbit
and the ones that don't that'sokay. But I think that, that pet
loss grief really needs to be asvalid as any other loss.
Michael Liben (12:36):
I think we can agree that a pet is not a child,
a pet is not human.
Erica Messer (12:41):
Right. Right.
Michael Liben (12:42):
But I think we can also agree that the pain
perhaps different is very real.
And I only came to thatrecently, this past summer, when
we had to put Laila down, shewas 15, and it was clearly the
end, and at the same time thatwe were making that decision, we
were 10 and a half years awaymaking that same decision
(13:02):
regarding my daughter. And wewere clearly in both places in
time at the same time. Again, Iwant to be very clear on this.
It doesn't mean that it's thesame. But it does mean that it's
very real.
Erica Messer (13:17):
And grief can be triggering, right? It can bring
up unresolved grief or grieffrom the past. It's, I've heard
a lot of counselors talk aboutcumulative grief. No one is
taught about how to grieve. Noone is prepared. There's no
school that teaches you this.
It's something we all have toexperience and find those
solutions to so it's been astrange journey for me, but very
(13:38):
fulfilling, very rewarding andinteresting.
Anna Jaworski (13:45):
You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me. If
you have a question or commentthat you would like addressed on
our program, please send anemail to Michael Liben at
michael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
That'smichael@bereavedbutstillme.com
This content is not intended tobe a substitute for professional
(14:05):
medical advice, diagnosis, ortreatment. The opinions
expressed in the podcast are notthose of Hearts Unite the Globe,
but of the hosts and guests andare intended to spark discussion
about issues pertaining tocongenital heart disease or
bereavement.
Michael Liben (14:27):
Erica, we talked about your experience with pet
loss and how your motherencouraged you to use your
talents to help others who areexperiencing loss. Can you tell
us about how you came up withyour idea for Pet Loss Grieving
Cards?
Erica Messer (14:43):
I think what I was looking for originally was just
something really simple. Theonly thing I could really find
were books. And so in talkingwith my mom, she said,"You know
these one a day affirmationcards I think would be really
helpful. I know a lot of myfriends would like that. Why
don't you just start writingdown what you've got, and we'll
all help you, we'll go throughit". And it wasn't until I saw
(15:07):
my own professional counseling,I needed someone to check in and
tell me I was going to be okayor if not what to do. Once I
learned that a lot of peoplethat experience pet loss grief
were having similar symptoms andside effects that I was, that
was the real trigger to say,"Wow, this isn't talked about",
I didn't know that. I didn'tknow that pet loss counselors
(15:27):
existed until I needed one. AndI've really struggled to find
those resources. So it reallywas a shifting, a really turning
point for me. And that's when Isaid, "Alright, mom, I'm in, I'm
in 100%. I don't know how to dothis. I don't know what's gonna
happen. But we got to dosomething". So actually flew
home the next week, and I justwas like, a maniac on a mission,
(15:50):
wrote out the cards by hand, andshared them with all my friends
and family and decided to havethem printed and fundraised, and
I'm kind of fast forwardingthrough this part. But it really
just happened on its own prettyorganically. And I would just
cry and burst into tears whenpeople I barely knew were
donating $500 towards the firstprinting, I couldn't believe it.
(16:15):
Because I think we all havetried to do a lemonade stand or
tried to do some kind offundraising. It's like pulling
teeth. So I knew we were ontosomething that people responded
to there being a need fortreatingnpet loss grief. The
funny thing is, Michael, a lotof people thought I was making
sympathy, like bereavementcards, like note cards. And they
(16:36):
were giving money anyway. Andwhen they found out what I was
doing, they were like, "Whoa, Ididn't even know that was a
thing". And I said, "It's not,it's the first one that I can
find", right? So it kind of gaveme some momentum and some
purpose and I think honestlysaved me in a lot of ways.
Michael Liben (16:55):
I have to be honest, I didn't know until just
now that there was such a thingas pet loss grieving counselors.
I had no idea that existed.
Erica Messer (17:05):
I didn't either.
But I really wasn't okay. And Ihad gone to a regular counselor.
And she just wasn't relating tome, I didn't feel like she
understood what I was goingthrough, and I felt like I'm
going to go a little deeper anddig around. And that's kind of
how I found a pet losscounselor, which was kind of
scary to reach out to and say,"Hi, I think I've lost my mind.
(17:25):
Can you confirm?"
Michael Liben (17:29):
I can confirm, not knowing you very well, that
I don't think you've lost yourmind.
Erica Messer (17:35):
Well, thank you.
Michael Liben (17:36):
You're welcome.
But I do understand, again, wehave this thing here Friday
nights, we sit down for a bigdinner together. And we cut
bread and pass it around. And myhand, naturally now picks up a
piece and wants to throw it backon the floor where Laila is
waiting for it. She knows whenshe sees us sitting together on
(17:56):
the table, there's going to bebread. And for awhile, I've been
going through this motion ofsort of almost tossing to the
floor but not actually doing it.
And my daughter saw it shedidn't like it, she said, "What
are you doing, that just looksweird". But my wife understood
because we'd been doing it for along, long time when my daughter
wasn't always around us. And itwas because there's a habit that
(18:20):
makes it real for us. It makesher there. And she's not there.
And so we remember her by doingthat. I think most people fall
in love with their animals, Ithink their animals work their
way into our hearts for areason. But it's difficult to
explain if you haven't beenthere.
Erica Messer (18:38):
Yeah.
Michael Liben (18:39):
And the loss is real, and the emotion is real.
And I have lost both. You wantto do something, you want to do
a ritual, you want to doanything that makes you think of
her. It's true.
Erica Messer (18:52):
I'd say drop the bread, just do it. Because she
could be there with you inspirit. Why break your habit?
Who cares what people think? Youknow, you feed her everyday, you
walked her every day, to havethat just stop abruptly is
really jarring. And I know youcan't, I'm not saying to feed
her every day and take her leashout. But maybe go for a walk
(19:13):
with a neighbor or a familymember at the same time and try
to make those adjustmentsgradual, and you can think about
her while you're on the walk andspeaking to really anyone who
maybe they didn't plan to losetheir pet, or even if they did,
their, you're left with justthis big hole. So I encourage
(19:35):
people to forgive themselves,don't have any judgment, and I
don't think we should have toexplain our behavior because our
life has just changeddramatically. The people that
love you and really care aboutyou will understand. They might
look at you funny, like yourdaughter was like, "Why are you
doing that?" But that's okay.
Because what's important is thatwe take care of ourselves
Michael Liben (20:00):
Well, I think you're right about that. But
let's drive back to where wewere a little bit. Where can
people find your pet lossgrieving cards? Because that's
the thing and they're wonderful.
How do we get it out there?
Erica Messer (20:11):
Right? Okay, thank you. My website is
wolfieswish.com. And not onlycan you get the grieving cards
there, both in digital orphysical form. But I've built
out a huge resources page withall the things that I felt like
I couldn't find that I needed.
So I hope that people can go toWolfies Wish and find whatever
they need, including freedownloads to write a love letter
(20:32):
to your pet, or as digitalsample of the cards. So there's
a lot there, we have a privateFacebook group, and the links
are also to that, we havevirtual counselling, and there's
links to that. So I just say goto wolfieswish.com and dig
around. And if you haven't lostyour pet, or maybe you have a
senior pet, or you just got apuppy, just bookmark our page,
(20:52):
because there'll be a day whereyou're going to need those
resources. It might not betoday, it might not be tomorrow,
but you will if have a pet oryou know someone.
Michael Liben (21:05):
Yeah, that's the premise of the whole thing is
that you're going to need this.
And you know, upfront, you'regoing to need this. Now, did you
beta test your cards? And if so,what's the response like?
Erica Messer (21:17):
I did beta test them, I did a small version,
which was the handwritten onesthat I showed friends and
family. And then I went to mydad's house, did same thing, the
neighbors, hey, read this. Ikind of got down to a deck of 30
for the first month of grief oflike that hard, hard month. So I
printed, I think, 100 decksprofessionally at first, I
(21:40):
really can't remember thenumber, maybe it was 300 I think
it was 300. And those soldpretty fast, because I had done
a Kickstarter. So it was kind oflike a pre sale. That's kind of
how that works. People paid andthey're gonna get something. And
those were gone. So then I went,Wow. All right, let's print
more. Let's go and find adifferent printer. So it became
this journey of, alright, well,that worked, and that worked. I
(22:02):
don't recall changing the textthat much, maybe just rewording
things a little bit. But it'spretty much been the same text.
And then I just designeddifferent decks with that text.
And I even license out the textto companies so they can design
it however they want, put theirbrand on it, it's been quite a
crazy ride.
Michael Liben (22:22):
I like that.
It's, it's an original idea, andit involves the person who buys
this. It's not just I buy it,and it's pretty I buy it, and I
can use it. And I think in thefuture, this will be more
common. I think people will getused to this idea and you've
started something really bigthere. So thank you for that.
Erica Messer (22:43):
Thank you. That's quite a compliment.
Michael Liben (22:45):
That's what we do here. What do you think is the
future of these cards? How doyou see it going out?
Erica Messer (22:49):
Well, the cards have already been translated
into five languages now. Andthose are getting tweaked
because I'm not native, youknow, I'm not a native Italian
speaker. I think I see thembeing licensed so that pet food
companies or veterinaryhospitals can brand them to
their own design and logo andcolors and give them to
customers, give them to clients.
I've got pet boarding facilitiesusing these, I really have just
(23:13):
got into regular retail. So farI've been focused on pets, I
what I really see though, is thechange that's happening and
validating pet loss grief. Andthat this is one solution to it.
It really opens the door wide.
You know, I've got coloringbooks now for kids and activity
books and I've got all theseplans. And so the grieving cards
(23:36):
are the first thing, I don'treally know how long they will
be around I can't say, but I doknow that they have been the
gateway to treating pet lossgrief and having solutions and
talking about it.
Michael Liben (23:52):
If you've enjoyed listening to this program,
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(24:16):
pertaining to the CHD community,please visit our website at
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much, much more.
Erica, some people lose a petand then they say they will
(24:37):
never get another one becausethe pain of losing a pet is too
great. Or perhaps they don'twant to dishonor the memory of
their beloved pet. How do youfeel about that? And what do you
tell people if they ask you?
Erica Messer (24:50):
These people are very aware of what's going on
and I think that's great toacknowledge that. For me, I knew
I wanted to get another pet andI didn't feel like I was going
to do a disservice to Wolfgang,I think opening my heart again
to love is worth the pain oflosing another pet. So I
actually waited three months andgot two cats at one time because
(25:13):
Wolfgang died, and a coupleyears before we'd lost another
kitten, so I said I'm gettingtwo ones for insurance and
they're sisters, whatever. But Ilook at Vanilli every day,
because I don't know, if she'sgonna get sick. I don't act as
if she's going to die. But Ilooked at her today, actually
and I said, "You're gonna breakmy heart so bad". Wow. Like,
(25:38):
what? "How am I gonna getthrough of losing you?" I hope
it's a long time from now. But Ijust looked at her, and went,
"You're just, you're gonna killme". And I kind of laughed at it
and went, alright, but I've beenthrough fire before I can get
through it again. And it's worthit. It really is.
Michael Liben (25:55):
I have to say, I think you already know, we had
Laila for 15 years. And from dayone, I knew this was coming. And
it could have been 25 years, itcould have been 125 years
doesn't matter. When it comes itcomes and it hurts.
Erica Messer (26:08):
Yeah.
Michael Liben (26:09):
That's a toughy.
Erica Messer (26:10):
Yeah, I don't have an answer for everyone. I think
people have to do what's rightfor them. But I will say that
over time, and knowing now thatthere are more tools to cope
with grief than there were whenI was a kid, when I was a
teenager, you know, there arepeople that that's their
profession now is to help youday by day, week by week get
(26:31):
through it, then I think it'sworth it. I think anyone can
open their heart again.
Michael Liben (26:37):
I think the answer may be to explain to
people, you don't have to getanother one, if that's how you
feel if you want to honor yourfirst one. But if you do want
another one, if you dare go inthat direction, and you're
worried about it, you know bynow that a part of the ownership
is also the loss. And it's partof the process, it's part of the
whole spectrum of however manyyears you're going to be with
(26:59):
it. And I'd have to accept itthat that's just like being with
people, right?
Erica Messer (27:04):
I was just gonna say that I think our pets want
us to be happy. And I don'tthink it's a betrayal to open
your heart again, to lovinganother animal and receiving
their love. Because we'll alwayshave our heart pet. Once Vanilli
goes, I'm sure I'll be able toget another cat. And it's not to
(27:24):
replace her. It's because I lovepets.
Michael Liben (27:28):
That's fair.
Erica Messer (27:29):
Yeah.
Michael Liben (27:29):
It's fair. And it's a great way to be if that's
who you are. I'm still dividedover that until you see me
walking another dog. I haven'treally crossed that question
yet. But my son, for example, isadamant - no more animals, we
would dishonor the one we had.
And I can accept that, I reallycan. Also, you know, some people
might say it cheapens the ideathat you can just go get another
one. Again, these are all openquestions that I think people
(27:53):
have to face on their own. Butthey're real questions and they
shouldn't be laughed at or, orin any way scorned because these
are real issues. I know so manyof my neighbors who've lost
pets. The next time I see them,they have a new one. The first
thing I want to say is, "Younever learn?". But that is what
they've learned. What they'velearned is they need to have a
pet. So if you're giving adviceto somebody who's lost a pet,
(28:16):
what would you say?
Erica Messer (28:20):
Well, I would say if you do decide to adopt
another, don't expect them toact the same. Don't expect them
to do the same things. And besure that you're ready to give
them love and receive their lovebecause the worst thing you can
do is get a pet and not love it.
Or be resentful that they're notacting like Laila or Sadie or
any of our pets. So I think justmaking sure that there's this
(28:46):
time commitment too, to get toknow each other. It's been two
years since I've had Vanilli andnow I feel like we know each
other. It takes a while.
Especially with cats.
Michael Liben (28:59):
With a cat, no doesn't take any time at all,
you know exactly what yourposition is with the cat. You
are the servant and the cat isthe master, and you signed on to
that that's on you.
Erica Messer (29:12):
She has these chirps, right. So a lot of cats
are very vocal, and she's a veryvocal one. And like, okay, come
on into bed, or I'm going inthis room and we talk to our
pets. I don't know if they haveany idea what I'm saying. But I
know everybody does it. I'll beon the record for everybody and
say, "Yeah, we talk to them...
Michael Liben (29:29):
Well, I don't know about cats. I know that
dogs can understand up to about170 words.
Erica Messer (29:34):
Yeah, that's true.
Like I feel like I cancommunicate with Vanilli and I
felt the same about Wolfgang. Sothere you go.
Michael Liben (29:41):
I think a cat can unlock the secrets of the
universe. She just won't tellyou.
Erica Messer (29:45):
That was hard and I thought astrophysics was hard.
Yeah, you're probably right.
Michael Liben (29:54):
You spend your entire lifetime with that cat
trying to figure it out. We'llnever get it. Before we end is
there something that you want tolet us know that we should take
away from this conversation?
Erica Messer (30:05):
Yes, that pet loss is valid and should be honored
and respected. And the bestthing that one can do for
someone that has lost a pet, isto just show up and ask them,
"How can I support you? I careabout you, I don't understand
what you're going through, but Iwant to be here for you". And
(30:27):
that's, it's really simple. It'sa complex thing, but showing up
for people is the best thing wecan do.
Michael Liben (30:34):
I totally agree with that. It's common practice
where I live to put up noticeswhen somebody has died. And then
you're open for being visitedfor that period of time. Our
neighbor downstairs, when wemoved in, she had a dog, which
she had had, apparently, almost15 years. And when that dog
left, she put up the same kindof notice, intended to look like
(30:57):
a death notice of a person,because that's what that dog had
meant to her and her family forthat many years. And so, seeing
the notice, we walked in and satwith her and comforted her as we
would for somebody else. Again,I want to stress that we all
know the difference. But at thatmoment, it matters less. What
(31:17):
matters is that they'reexperiencing pain.
Erica Messer (31:20):
That's beautiful.
Michael Liben (31:21):
Erica, thank you so much for joining us on
"Bereaved But Still Me".
Erica Messer (31:24):
Thank you for having me.
Michael Liben (31:25):
And that concludes this episode of
"Bereaved But Still Me". I wantto thank Erica Messer for
sharing her story, her pet lossgrieving cards, and her
experiences with us. Please joinus at the beginning of the month
for a brand new podcast. I'lltalk with you soon but till then
please remember moving forwardis not moving away.
Anna Jaworski (31:42):
Thank you for joining us. We hope you have
felt supported in your griefjourney. "Bereaved But Still Me"
is a monthly podcast and a newepisode is released on the first
Thursday of each month. You canhear our podcast anywhere you
normally listen to podcasts atany time. Join us again next
month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".
I feel so lucky that I had the experience with
(00:03):
him and the bond with him. And Ihope that everyone can find a
heart animal or heart pet intheir lifetime because it's it's
such a beautiful gift.
Michael Liben (00:26):
What relationship do humans have with their pets?
How serious is it for pet loverswhen their pets die? Do humans
go through the same grievingprocess when they lose a pet
than when they go through whenthey lose a loved one? Welcome
to "Bereaved But Still Me". Ourpurpose is to empower members of
our community. I am MichaelLiben the father of three
children - Idan, Sapir, andLiel. Liel, my youngest
(00:48):
daughter, was born with a heartdefect and later developed
autism and epilepsy. Losing her15 is what has brought me here
to be the host of this program.
Comedian George Carlin has saidthat the major problem with
getting pets is that we knowupfront that we're getting into
something that will definitelyend badly. Indeed, when Laila
was a puppy, my daughter Sapirwas very uneasy around the new
(01:11):
dog and I told her that sheshould treat Laila, like her
sister. But at that same moment,I also made myself a new
daughter. Is that a commonexperience for pet owners? This
episode of "Bereaved But StillMe" is going to take a slightly
different turn. Two thirds ofAmericans own pets and that
translates to 86.9 millionhomes. Everyone on the staff
(01:33):
this podcast owns a pet or moreand chances are that most of our
listeners own pets. So itbehooves us - pun intended - to
take a serious look at pet loss.
And yes, nobody's comparing apet to a person and everybody
knows the difference. But forthose of us who have lost both,
we may find the line gets just alittle fuzzy. Our pets have
(01:57):
worked their way into ourhearts, we sweat for them, we
toil for them, we feed them, andwe love them, and we welcome
them into our families. Ourguest today is Erica Messer, who
after the sudden passing of herbeloved cat, Wolfgang embarked
on a heartfelt quest to find asimple way to cope with her
grief. Frustrated by the lack ofproducts and encouraged by her
(02:18):
mother, Bonnie, she created theperfect solution - Pet Loss
Grieving Cards. Thus, "Wolfie'sWish" was born. And the
innovative concept of grievingcards garnered widespread
attention, including receiving aprestigious Best New Product
award at the esteemed SuperZooTrade Show in 2022. Erica finds
joy and solace in her love ofmusic, performing pop and rock
(02:41):
covers on the harp. Withclinical musical training, she
helps people navigate theirgrief through the healing powers
of music. Erica's artistictalents also shine through her
hand painted pet portraits,showcasing her love for animals
and dedication to capturingtheir spirits on canvas. She
both wrote and illustratedcaptivating stories and tales of
spirit pets. Residing in thepicturesque city of Munich,
(03:04):
Germany, Erica shares her lifewith a loving husband and three
cherished feline companions,Peachy, Milli, and Vanilli. In
today's program, we're going tolearn more about Erica, her card
deck, and some advice regardingpet loss. Erica, welcome to
"Bereaved But Still Me".
Erica Messer (03:19):
Thank you.
Michael Liben (03:20):
Let's start by learning more about your first
experience with pet loss. Canyou tell me more about that?
Erica Messer (03:25):
My parents had two dogs, Jute and Jet, that I grew
up with and you know they hadbefore they had kids. And I
remember I was seven years old,and my babysitter picked me up
from school and said, "You know,I have to tell you something,
Jute died today". I guess Jutewas old but no one had talked to
me about death or that she wasgoing to die. And so it really
(03:48):
just kind of came out ofnowhere. And I remember bursting
into tears, even though I didn'treally feel like Jute was my
dog, and she slept outside, Imean, it was a different
dynamic. But I still felt thisbig sense of just like a rug had
been pulled out. And the shockof it all and we buried her.
Like the family didn't talkabout any of it. We just buried
(04:13):
her. She was old. My dad hadfound her outside. And it was
kind of like that's it, next. Itwas very jarring experience.
Michael Liben (04:24):
I think part of that jarring experience isn't
necessarily, in this case, youtold me you didn't think about
her as yours. But there'ssomething regular in your life
about having an animal around,right? You have to take care of
your pet. You have to relate toyour pet. You're there. And so I
think that's enough. How oldwere you when this happened?
Erica Messer (04:43):
Seven.
Michael Liben (04:44):
I think that's enough. You know, you don't
necessarily have to lovesomething to miss it. If it
breaks your routine, and I thinkthat's a lot of it. When Laila
died, and that's recent for us,one of the things we noticed was
that things that she was a partof without our really thinking
about, she was gone, she was nolonger part of those things. I
was sitting down together tohave dinner, she'd sit by me and
(05:08):
expect me to toss her somebread. That stopped happening.
And of course, we did love her,and that was part of the thing
is that we made her,accidentally or not, we made her
part of the family. Once Icalled her a sister to my other
daughters, then she was suddenlymy daughter. And I had to live
with that. And I guess whatCarlin meant when he said, it's
going to end badly and you knowit, from the very first day. We
(05:31):
said before, that your mother,Bonnie, encouraged you to move
into this concept of productsfor pet loss. Is your mother, a
pet lover? And tell us about herexperience with pets and how she
supported your project.
Erica Messer (05:43):
She has such a big heart, and she's a serial cat
owner. So she and my dadactually divorced, and I think
the first thing she did was geta cat. And then it just it would
live out its life. She did adoptthem or find them or they'd find
her. So she was very accustomedto losing them. And she always
said it was hard. They were allburied in the same place in her
(06:05):
yard. It was a little petcemetery in the front yard. But
when Wolfgang died, it wasduring the pandemic and we
hadn't seen each other and she'dnever met Wolfgang, but she knew
how much I loved him because theday that I brought him home, we
were in the bathtub, and it wasjust getting him acclimated to
the bathroom. That was his firstzone. I FaceTimed her and we
(06:27):
both just kind of bonded moreover adopting him. And anyway,
so she understood the pain thatI was going through, especially
with his tragic death, and thatI had to witness. So I would
talk to her every day, I justreally needed that comfort and
regularity of that. And someonethat would understand. So I
(06:47):
would share with her like, "Mom,I didn't know where to look but
I found this and I meditated andI decided to write this letter"
and day after day share with herthese little tools that were
helping me along is when shesaid, "I think you should make
that deck that you couldn't findyou were looking for a pet loss
deck like an affirmation carddeck. Something simple. And it
(07:08):
sounds like you've been doingthat because every day I talk to
you, you've got one new thingthat's helping you just inch a
little bit further on in yourgrief journey". I just said,
"That sounds hard. I don't knowhow". And I'm grieving. Right?
I'm busy. But my mom is gentlypersistent. I would never say
she's a nag. You wouldn't knowit.
Michael Liben (07:32):
You're very kind.
Erica Messer (07:34):
It's true, though.
I'm very lucky in that regard.
Michael Liben (07:37):
Well, she did have a really good eye there.
Because she saw what you weredoing was essentially building
these affirmations by having onemore thing to say every day. She
had a good eye for that. Andthat's to her credit. And we'll
say that she was gentlyencouraging.
Erica Messer (07:53):
Yeah, she was so kind during that whole period
and just listened and was therefor me and showed up for me,
which is what I think everyoneneeds. No matter that type of
loss. We all need someone that'sjust going to be there and nod
like "Yep, I'm here for you, I'mgoing to show up for you day
after day". And that was my mom,for me.
Michael Liben (08:15):
That's very much the same. Also, I think with
human loss, a lot of timespeople come and they want to say
something because they feel theyhave to. And one of the best
things I think is just saynothing. Just be there for the
person. And that's the best youcan do. Because you're
guaranteed to say somethingthat's going to make somebody
feel uncomfortable. But ifyou're just quiet, then the
(08:40):
person who's going through theloss can say what they want to
say or quietly bend theconversation in the direction
that's more comfortable forthem. So I think you're right
about that. You said the tragicway in which you lost Wolfgang,
I didn't know this. Do you wantto tell us about that?
Erica Messer (08:57):
I always hesitate on how specific to be because I
don't want to trigger anyone orinvite trauma on them. But my
friend killed Wolfgang. Sheopened and left the bathroom
window open after we told her wedon't do that. This was her
first time in our house. And shedid it anyway. And I said,
"Wolfgang is obsessed with thiswindow, it's our bathroom
(09:18):
window, if we do open it, wejust hold it. Let the steam out
of the room and then close itbecause it goes out to the
roof". It was in the morning. Itwas like the next morning she'd
taken a shower. And I wasstraightening up because I was
having someone come over and Inoticed the window was just wide
open and I was like -
Michael Liben (09:35):
Oops.
Erica Messer (09:35):
What, why is the window open? Okay, so long story
short. Yeah, he was outside onthe pavement still alive and
couldn't walk. But of course, Itried to stay calm and got his
carrier got an Uber and I hadthe emergency place to go and it
was just like okay, I wanted tothrow up the whole time. I was
(09:56):
like, "This feels like anightmare" but I just went into
handle this mode. I don't evenknow what you call that. But he
died thrashing in the carrierlike, right as we got to the
vet. So it was quite surreal,really. And I can't unlive that,
I can't forget that. And I don'treally want to, I think that's
dangerous for my health. But Ialso try not to dwell on it when
(10:19):
my thoughts go there and replayit like at night. And I just
say, yep, that really happened.
And I put my hand on my heart, Igo, but I'm okay. And tomorrow's
a new day.
Michael Liben (10:31):
Some of our listeners who are not pet owners
are going to wonder why we areinvesting so much time and
energy in this. In your case, Ithink, because you were there
and you witnessed it, and, ofcourse, these animals mean so
much to us, they come into ourhearts. You want to speak to
that?
Erica Messer (10:50):
that we care and love. And I nursed him, he had
eye herpes as a kitten, no onewanted him. And then to just
boom, it's gone. And hesuffered, and I had to watch him
suffer, and I couldn't doanything, really changes a
(11:14):
person. And pets, you know, I'vehad pets like Jute was part of
our family. She was just alwaysthere, right? I mean, she was
there from the time I had myfirst word, but she wasn't mine.
And she didn't sleep with me.
And she didn't rely on me,Wolfgang was my COVID companion,
that's why I got him. I was withhim 24/7, and I took care of
him, he slept with me, that kindof relationship is different.
(11:37):
I've never really had anythinglike that before. And I think it
was the combination of it beingthe pandemic. And I would say
that he's my heart cat. I didn'tknow what that meant, or I
hadn't heard that term until Istarted looking into pet loss
grief, and heard someone elsesay it. And I instantly knew -
that's what he was, he wasspecial in a different way. And
(12:00):
I really look at it as I feel solucky that I have the experience
with him and the bond with him.
And I hope that everyone canfind a heart animal or heart pet
in their lifetime, because it'sit's such a beautiful gift. So
to explain it, I can't, I thinkpeople that understand will have
(12:24):
lost a pet and probably a heartdog or heart cat or heart rabbit
and the ones that don't that'sokay. But I think that, that pet
loss grief really needs to be asvalid as any other loss.
Michael Liben (12:36):
I think we can agree that a pet is not a child,
a pet is not human.
Erica Messer (12:41):
Right. Right.
Michael Liben (12:42):
But I think we can also agree that the pain
perhaps different is very real.
And I only came to thatrecently, this past summer, when
we had to put Laila down, shewas 15, and it was clearly the
end, and at the same time thatwe were making that decision, we
were 10 and a half years awaymaking that same decision
(13:02):
regarding my daughter. And wewere clearly in both places in
time at the same time. Again, Iwant to be very clear on this.
It doesn't mean that it's thesame. But it does mean that it's
very real.
Erica Messer (13:17):
And grief can be triggering, right? It can bring
up unresolved grief or grieffrom the past. It's, I've heard
a lot of counselors talk aboutcumulative grief. No one is
taught about how to grieve. Noone is prepared. There's no
school that teaches you this.
It's something we all have toexperience and find those
solutions to so it's been astrange journey for me, but very
(13:38):
fulfilling, very rewarding andinteresting.
Anna Jaworski (13:45):
You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me. If
you have a question or commentthat you would like addressed on
our program, please send anemail to Michael Liben at
michael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
That'smichael@bereavedbutstillme.com
This content is not intended tobe a substitute for professional
(14:05):
medical advice, diagnosis, ortreatment. The opinions
expressed in the podcast are notthose of Hearts Unite the Globe,
but of the hosts and guests andare intended to spark discussion
about issues pertaining tocongenital heart disease or
bereavement.
Michael Liben (14:27):
Erica, we talked about your experience with pet
loss and how your motherencouraged you to use your
talents to help others who areexperiencing loss. Can you tell
us about how you came up withyour idea for Pet Loss Grieving
Cards?
Erica Messer (14:43):
I think what I was looking for originally was just
something really simple. Theonly thing I could really find
were books. And so in talkingwith my mom, she said,"You know
these one a day affirmationcards I think would be really
helpful. I know a lot of myfriends would like that. Why
don't you just start writingdown what you've got, and we'll
all help you, we'll go throughit". And it wasn't until I saw
(15:07):
my own professional counseling,I needed someone to check in and
tell me I was going to be okayor if not what to do. Once I
learned that a lot of peoplethat experience pet loss grief
were having similar symptoms andside effects that I was, that
was the real trigger to say,"Wow, this isn't talked about",
I didn't know that. I didn'tknow that pet loss counselors
(15:27):
existed until I needed one. AndI've really struggled to find
those resources. So it reallywas a shifting, a really turning
point for me. And that's when Isaid, "Alright, mom, I'm in, I'm
in 100%. I don't know how to dothis. I don't know what's gonna
happen. But we got to dosomething". So actually flew
home the next week, and I justwas like, a maniac on a mission,
(15:50):
wrote out the cards by hand, andshared them with all my friends
and family and decided to havethem printed and fundraised, and
I'm kind of fast forwardingthrough this part. But it really
just happened on its own prettyorganically. And I would just
cry and burst into tears whenpeople I barely knew were
donating $500 towards the firstprinting, I couldn't believe it.
(16:15):
Because I think we all havetried to do a lemonade stand or
tried to do some kind offundraising. It's like pulling
teeth. So I knew we were ontosomething that people responded
to there being a need fortreatingnpet loss grief. The
funny thing is, Michael, a lotof people thought I was making
sympathy, like bereavementcards, like note cards. And they
(16:36):
were giving money anyway. Andwhen they found out what I was
doing, they were like, "Whoa, Ididn't even know that was a
thing". And I said, "It's not,it's the first one that I can
find", right? So it kind of gaveme some momentum and some
purpose and I think honestlysaved me in a lot of ways.
Michael Liben (16:55):
I have to be honest, I didn't know until just
now that there was such a thingas pet loss grieving counselors.
I had no idea that existed.
Erica Messer (17:05):
I didn't either.
But I really wasn't okay. And Ihad gone to a regular counselor.
And she just wasn't relating tome, I didn't feel like she
understood what I was goingthrough, and I felt like I'm
going to go a little deeper anddig around. And that's kind of
how I found a pet losscounselor, which was kind of
scary to reach out to and say,"Hi, I think I've lost my mind.
(17:25):
Can you confirm?"
Michael Liben (17:29):
I can confirm, not knowing you very well, that
I don't think you've lost yourmind.
Erica Messer (17:35):
Well, thank you.
Michael Liben (17:36):
You're welcome.
But I do understand, again, wehave this thing here Friday
nights, we sit down for a bigdinner together. And we cut
bread and pass it around. And myhand, naturally now picks up a
piece and wants to throw it backon the floor where Laila is
waiting for it. She knows whenshe sees us sitting together on
(17:56):
the table, there's going to bebread. And for awhile, I've been
going through this motion ofsort of almost tossing to the
floor but not actually doing it.
And my daughter saw it shedidn't like it, she said, "What
are you doing, that just looksweird". But my wife understood
because we'd been doing it for along, long time when my daughter
wasn't always around us. And itwas because there's a habit that
(18:20):
makes it real for us. It makesher there. And she's not there.
And so we remember her by doingthat. I think most people fall
in love with their animals, Ithink their animals work their
way into our hearts for areason. But it's difficult to
explain if you haven't beenthere.
Erica Messer (18:38):
Yeah.
Michael Liben (18:39):
And the loss is real, and the emotion is real.
And I have lost both. You wantto do something, you want to do
a ritual, you want to doanything that makes you think of
her. It's true.
Erica Messer (18:52):
I'd say drop the bread, just do it. Because she
could be there with you inspirit. Why break your habit?
Who cares what people think? Youknow, you feed her everyday, you
walked her every day, to havethat just stop abruptly is
really jarring. And I know youcan't, I'm not saying to feed
her every day and take her leashout. But maybe go for a walk
(19:13):
with a neighbor or a familymember at the same time and try
to make those adjustmentsgradual, and you can think about
her while you're on the walk andspeaking to really anyone who
maybe they didn't plan to losetheir pet, or even if they did,
their, you're left with justthis big hole. So I encourage
(19:35):
people to forgive themselves,don't have any judgment, and I
don't think we should have toexplain our behavior because our
life has just changeddramatically. The people that
love you and really care aboutyou will understand. They might
look at you funny, like yourdaughter was like, "Why are you
doing that?" But that's okay.
Because what's important is thatwe take care of ourselves
Michael Liben (20:00):
Well, I think you're right about that. But
let's drive back to where wewere a little bit. Where can
people find your pet lossgrieving cards? Because that's
the thing and they're wonderful.
How do we get it out there?
Erica Messer (20:11):
Right? Okay, thank you. My website is
wolfieswish.com. And not onlycan you get the grieving cards
there, both in digital orphysical form. But I've built
out a huge resources page withall the things that I felt like
I couldn't find that I needed.
So I hope that people can go toWolfies Wish and find whatever
they need, including freedownloads to write a love letter
(20:32):
to your pet, or as digitalsample of the cards. So there's
a lot there, we have a privateFacebook group, and the links
are also to that, we havevirtual counselling, and there's
links to that. So I just say goto wolfieswish.com and dig
around. And if you haven't lostyour pet, or maybe you have a
senior pet, or you just got apuppy, just bookmark our page,
(20:52):
because there'll be a day whereyou're going to need those
resources. It might not betoday, it might not be tomorrow,
but you will if have a pet oryou know someone.
Michael Liben (21:05):
Yeah, that's the premise of the whole thing is
that you're going to need this.
And you know, upfront, you'regoing to need this. Now, did you
beta test your cards? And if so,what's the response like?
Erica Messer (21:17):
I did beta test them, I did a small version,
which was the handwritten onesthat I showed friends and
family. And then I went to mydad's house, did same thing, the
neighbors, hey, read this. Ikind of got down to a deck of 30
for the first month of grief oflike that hard, hard month. So I
printed, I think, 100 decksprofessionally at first, I
(21:40):
really can't remember thenumber, maybe it was 300 I think
it was 300. And those soldpretty fast, because I had done
a Kickstarter. So it was kind oflike a pre sale. That's kind of
how that works. People paid andthey're gonna get something. And
those were gone. So then I went,Wow. All right, let's print
more. Let's go and find adifferent printer. So it became
this journey of, alright, well,that worked, and that worked. I
(22:02):
don't recall changing the textthat much, maybe just rewording
things a little bit. But it'spretty much been the same text.
And then I just designeddifferent decks with that text.
And I even license out the textto companies so they can design
it however they want, put theirbrand on it, it's been quite a
crazy ride.
Michael Liben (22:22):
I like that.
It's, it's an original idea, andit involves the person who buys
this. It's not just I buy it,and it's pretty I buy it, and I
can use it. And I think in thefuture, this will be more
common. I think people will getused to this idea and you've
started something really bigthere. So thank you for that.
Erica Messer (22:43):
Thank you. That's quite a compliment.
Michael Liben (22:45):
That's what we do here. What do you think is the
future of these cards? How doyou see it going out?
Erica Messer (22:49):
Well, the cards have already been translated
into five languages now. Andthose are getting tweaked
because I'm not native, youknow, I'm not a native Italian
speaker. I think I see thembeing licensed so that pet food
companies or veterinaryhospitals can brand them to
their own design and logo andcolors and give them to
customers, give them to clients.
I've got pet boarding facilitiesusing these, I really have just
(23:13):
got into regular retail. So farI've been focused on pets, I
what I really see though, is thechange that's happening and
validating pet loss grief. Andthat this is one solution to it.
It really opens the door wide.
You know, I've got coloringbooks now for kids and activity
books and I've got all theseplans. And so the grieving cards
(23:36):
are the first thing, I don'treally know how long they will
be around I can't say, but I doknow that they have been the
gateway to treating pet lossgrief and having solutions and
talking about it.
Michael Liben (23:52):
If you've enjoyed listening to this program,
please visit our websiteheartsunitetheglobe.org and make
a contribution. This program isa presentation of Hearts Unite
the Globe and Is part of the HUGPodcast Network. Hearts Unite
the Globe is a nonprofitorganization devoted to
providing resources to thecongenital heart defect
community to educate, empower,and enrich the lives of our
community members. If you wouldlike access to free resources
(24:16):
pertaining to the CHD community,please visit our website at
congenitalheartdefects.com forinformation about CHD, hospitals
that treat CHD survivors, summercamps for CHD families, and
much, much more.
Erica, some people lose a petand then they say they will
(24:37):
never get another one becausethe pain of losing a pet is too
great. Or perhaps they don'twant to dishonor the memory of
their beloved pet. How do youfeel about that? And what do you
tell people if they ask you?
Erica Messer (24:50):
These people are very aware of what's going on
and I think that's great toacknowledge that. For me, I knew
I wanted to get another pet andI didn't feel like I was going
to do a disservice to Wolfgang,I think opening my heart again
to love is worth the pain oflosing another pet. So I
actually waited three months andgot two cats at one time because
(25:13):
Wolfgang died, and a coupleyears before we'd lost another
kitten, so I said I'm gettingtwo ones for insurance and
they're sisters, whatever. But Ilook at Vanilli every day,
because I don't know, if she'sgonna get sick. I don't act as
if she's going to die. But Ilooked at her today, actually
and I said, "You're gonna breakmy heart so bad". Wow. Like,
(25:38):
what? "How am I gonna getthrough of losing you?" I hope
it's a long time from now. But Ijust looked at her, and went,
"You're just, you're gonna killme". And I kind of laughed at it
and went, alright, but I've beenthrough fire before I can get
through it again. And it's worthit. It really is.
Michael Liben (25:55):
I have to say, I think you already know, we had
Laila for 15 years. And from dayone, I knew this was coming. And
it could have been 25 years, itcould have been 125 years
doesn't matter. When it comes itcomes and it hurts.
Erica Messer (26:08):
Yeah.
Michael Liben (26:09):
That's a toughy.
Erica Messer (26:10):
Yeah, I don't have an answer for everyone. I think
people have to do what's rightfor them. But I will say that
over time, and knowing now thatthere are more tools to cope
with grief than there were whenI was a kid, when I was a
teenager, you know, there arepeople that that's their
profession now is to help youday by day, week by week get
(26:31):
through it, then I think it'sworth it. I think anyone can
open their heart again.
Michael Liben (26:37):
I think the answer may be to explain to
people, you don't have to getanother one, if that's how you
feel if you want to honor yourfirst one. But if you do want
another one, if you dare go inthat direction, and you're
worried about it, you know bynow that a part of the ownership
is also the loss. And it's partof the process, it's part of the
whole spectrum of however manyyears you're going to be with
(26:59):
it. And I'd have to accept itthat that's just like being with
people, right?
Erica Messer (27:04):
I was just gonna say that I think our pets want
us to be happy. And I don'tthink it's a betrayal to open
your heart again, to lovinganother animal and receiving
their love. Because we'll alwayshave our heart pet. Once Vanilli
goes, I'm sure I'll be able toget another cat. And it's not to
(27:24):
replace her. It's because I lovepets.
Michael Liben (27:28):
That's fair.
Erica Messer (27:29):
Yeah.
Michael Liben (27:29):
It's fair. And it's a great way to be if that's
who you are. I'm still dividedover that until you see me
walking another dog. I haven'treally crossed that question
yet. But my son, for example, isadamant - no more animals, we
would dishonor the one we had.
And I can accept that, I reallycan. Also, you know, some people
might say it cheapens the ideathat you can just go get another
one. Again, these are all openquestions that I think people
(27:53):
have to face on their own. Butthey're real questions and they
shouldn't be laughed at or, orin any way scorned because these
are real issues. I know so manyof my neighbors who've lost
pets. The next time I see them,they have a new one. The first
thing I want to say is, "Younever learn?". But that is what
they've learned. What they'velearned is they need to have a
pet. So if you're giving adviceto somebody who's lost a pet,
(28:16):
what would you say?
Erica Messer (28:20):
Well, I would say if you do decide to adopt
another, don't expect them toact the same. Don't expect them
to do the same things. And besure that you're ready to give
them love and receive their lovebecause the worst thing you can
do is get a pet and not love it.
Or be resentful that they're notacting like Laila or Sadie or
any of our pets. So I think justmaking sure that there's this
(28:46):
time commitment too, to get toknow each other. It's been two
years since I've had Vanilli andnow I feel like we know each
other. It takes a while.
Especially with cats.
Michael Liben (28:59):
With a cat, no doesn't take any time at all,
you know exactly what yourposition is with the cat. You
are the servant and the cat isthe master, and you signed on to
that that's on you.
Erica Messer (29:12):
She has these chirps, right. So a lot of cats
are very vocal, and she's a veryvocal one. And like, okay, come
on into bed, or I'm going inthis room and we talk to our
pets. I don't know if they haveany idea what I'm saying. But I
know everybody does it. I'll beon the record for everybody and
say, "Yeah, we talk to them...
Michael Liben (29:29):
Well, I don't know about cats. I know that
dogs can understand up to about170 words.
Erica Messer (29:34):
Yeah, that's true.
Like I feel like I cancommunicate with Vanilli and I
felt the same about Wolfgang. Sothere you go.
Michael Liben (29:41):
I think a cat can unlock the secrets of the
universe. She just won't tellyou.
Erica Messer (29:45):
That was hard and I thought astrophysics was hard.
Yeah, you're probably right.
Michael Liben (29:54):
You spend your entire lifetime with that cat
trying to figure it out. We'llnever get it. Before we end is
there something that you want tolet us know that we should take
away from this conversation?
Erica Messer (30:05):
Yes, that pet loss is valid and should be honored
and respected. And the bestthing that one can do for
someone that has lost a pet, isto just show up and ask them,
"How can I support you? I careabout you, I don't understand
what you're going through, but Iwant to be here for you". And
(30:27):
that's, it's really simple. It'sa complex thing, but showing up
for people is the best thing wecan do.
Michael Liben (30:34):
I totally agree with that. It's common practice
where I live to put up noticeswhen somebody has died. And then
you're open for being visitedfor that period of time. Our
neighbor downstairs, when wemoved in, she had a dog, which
she had had, apparently, almost15 years. And when that dog
left, she put up the same kindof notice, intended to look like
(30:57):
a death notice of a person,because that's what that dog had
meant to her and her family forthat many years. And so, seeing
the notice, we walked in and satwith her and comforted her as we
would for somebody else. Again,I want to stress that we all
know the difference. But at thatmoment, it matters less. What
(31:17):
matters is that they'reexperiencing pain.
Erica Messer (31:20):
That's beautiful.
Michael Liben (31:21):
Erica, thank you so much for joining us on
"Bereaved But Still Me".
Erica Messer (31:24):
Thank you for having me.
Michael Liben (31:25):
And that concludes this episode of
"Bereaved But Still Me". I wantto thank Erica Messer for
sharing her story, her pet lossgrieving cards, and her
experiences with us. Please joinus at the beginning of the month
for a brand new podcast. I'lltalk with you soon but till then
please remember moving forwardis not moving away.
Anna Jaworski (31:42):
Thank you for joining us. We hope you have
felt supported in your griefjourney. "Bereaved But Still Me"
is a monthly podcast and a newepisode is released on the first
Thursday of each month. You canhear our podcast anywhere you
normally listen to podcasts atany time. Join us again next
month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".
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