November 3, 2022 • 30 mins
What pushed Kate Meyer into becoming an ordained minister? How did being a minister channel her into becoming a hospice counselor? What inspired Kate Meyer to write a book?
Kate Meyer is an ordained minister, licensed professional counselor, and author who is passionate about grief awareness. Kate Meyer strives for support for all people, specifically in the Christian community due to the miseducation of grief the Church has perpetuated.
Kate Meyer is also an author. The Red Couch is her fiction novel that follows Toni as she embraces new life through the process of grieving her grandmother. Most recently, Kate has written a nonfiction book. Faith Doesn't Erase Grief is available anywhere you purchase books. She’s here today to share with us her journey from minister to counselor to published author.
Helpful Information about Kate Meyer:
www.katejmeyer.com
Facebook & Twitter: @KateJMeyer1
Instagram: @kate.j.meyer.author
Faith Doesn't Erase Grief will be available anywhere you purchase books beginning 7/12/2022.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kate Meyer (00:00):
When we are grieving we have the same job of facing
it, embracing it, experiencingit, not turning from it.
Michael Liben (00:15):
What pushed Kate into becoming an ordained
minister? How did being aminister channel her into
becoming a hospice counselor?
What inspired Kate Meyer towrite a book? Welcome friends to
the Sixth Season of "BereavedBut Still Me". Our purpose is to
empower members of ourcommunity. I am Michael Liben,
and the father of three children- Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel,
my youngest daughter, was bornwith a heart defect and later
she develop autism and epilepsy.
(00:38):
Losing Liel at fifteen is whathas brought me here to be the
host of this program. Here withus today is our guest, Kate
Meyer. Kate Meyer is an ordainedminister, licensed professional
counselor, and author who ispassionate about grief
awareness. She strives forsupport for all people,
specifically the Christiancommunity, due to the
miseducation of grief which shesays the church has perpetuated.
(01:02):
Kate Meyer is also an author.
"The Red Couch" is her fictionnovel, which follows Toni as she
embraces new life through theprocess of grieving her
grandmother. Most recently, Katehas written a nonfiction book.
"Faith Doesn't Erase Grief"became available anywhere you
purchase books in July 2022. Andshe's here with us today to
share with us her journey fromminister to counselor to
(01:22):
published author. Kate, thankyou so much for joining us on
"Bereaved But Still Me".
Kate Meyer (01:28):
Yeah, thank you for having me, Michael, happy to be
here.
Michael Liben (01:31):
Let's start by talking about your faith. What
pushed you into becoming anordained minister?,
Kate Meyer (01:36):
I kind of like to tell the story that I was more
pulled, kicking and screaminginstead of, I mean pushed, I
guess, kind of works too but theimage of myself really
resisting. I went to college,leaning towards youth ministry
and enjoyed that, I pursued thatduring college had internships
(01:59):
that I liked. But I could notignore this feeling in the sense
that there was more that I wassupposed to be doing. What I
didn't know was the nuance ofseminary, that there was
something for me other than achurch because the one thing I
knew for certain was that I didnot want to pastor a church. So
(02:21):
I continued on and God and Ibattled back and forth. And
finally I ended up in seminaryat Western Theological in
Holland, Michigan. And thereover those three years, doors
opened, and I was able to seepaths of ministry that did not
(02:41):
include pastoring a church. Andthat's when I started to really
feel like I was coming intomyself and I discovered
healthcare chaplaincy and whatit looked like to care for
people, both staff and residentsof long term care facilities,
patients of hospitals, and useministry in that context, and
(03:05):
live into that calling. And thatwas a really gentle entry into
ministry is what I would sayabout that. So yeah, I went
kicking and screaming, but Iknow that it was 100% the right
start to this journey to get meto where I am now.
Michael Liben (03:23):
By the way, you should feel complimented kicking
and screaming is not unlike mostof the prophets. Right? They
were called; they did not wantto go.
Kate Meyer (03:31):
Yes. Yes. So poor Jacob has a permanent limp
because of it. So...
Michael Liben (03:36):
That's right.
That's right. And we could talkabout Jonah. Nobody wants to do
this. Nobody wanted to do this.
And I appreciate that. But youhave spent some time ministering
in a pulpit. I know thatrecently you have, you want to
tell me about that?
Kate Meyer (03:49):
The reason I didn't want to be in a church is
because I personally, when Ilook at it, I just see a lot of
drama. And it's often where thehypocrisy is found. It's very
judgy. I know. But I'm human,and so sometimes I'm judgmental,
but I do a lot of pulpit supply.
So when pastors are on vacation,or when a church is in
(04:10):
transition, then I will go andpreach. And I really enjoy that,
I enjoy the process of putting asermon together. I enjoy the act
of preaching. I feel very closewith God and the Holy Spirit in
those moments. And it's a joyfor me to do. And I'm also happy
that I don't have to do it everyweek. So pulpit supplies is is a
(04:33):
really lovely option for someonelike me, who doesn't get to
preach often. But it's a giftwhen I am able to.
Michael Liben (04:46):
You'd never consider doing that as a line of
work?
Kate Meyer (04:49):
I don't think I would. I've seen behind the
curtain too many times. I likebeing able to speak my mind and
I can do that when I'm notpermanently in a church. There's
a lot more rules that need to befollowed.
Michael Liben (05:06):
I definitely understand that I can tell you
that also from a Jewishperspective, we have the same
thing. A pulpit rabbi is not ajoyous job. I was the president
of a synagogue for two years.
That's enough.
Kate Meyer (05:17):
Yeah, right. Right.
Yeah. That's the behind thecurtain that I'm talking about.
Right?
Michael Liben (05:21):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. So you said that youfelt called to be a minister,
even though it's not the careerthat you would have chosen for
yourself. How difficult is itfor a woman even in this time in
history to be a minister? Andwhat advice would you have for
other women who feel called thatway?
Kate Meyer (05:36):
Unfortunately, I feel like we're in another kind
of ramp up against women inministry. The positive within
that is that those of us who areordained are getting stronger in
using our voice and bolder inspeaking up to the call that God
(05:59):
places on men and women. And soto women who are considering
that who are sensing that thatis a part of their calling, I
would encourage you to pursue itboldly, surround yourself with
other women, and with affirmingmen, because they are there,
(06:20):
there are men who affirm womenin ministry, they just sometimes
aren't the loudest. And so weneed to tune out the voices that
diminish us, or shame us orinvalidate us. And really listen
for those that affirm andencourage and support.
Michael Liben (06:41):
I remember growing up in the US that women
started to become ministers, Iwould guess, somewhere in the
70s in the mid to late 70s. Iwould assume by now that it's
more common, and it's more onview, but I here views that is
that that's not the case.
Kate Meyer (06:56):
It kind of depends on the denomination. So I'm, I'm
a part of the Reformed Church inAmerica. And we've been
ordaining women for 40 plusyears at this point. However,
there's still a large branchwithin the denomination that
does not refer to women inministry. So it's, yeah, it's
denomination by denomination.
And then even within that, therejust are groups who just don't
(07:19):
actively seek it. And then thereare some who actively remain
opposed. So in May of 2022, Ihad the opportunity to be the
first woman in a pulpit in WestMichigan at a church who just
never did before. So you know,2022 first woman, so that just
shows I think how much this isstill a battle.
Anna Jaworski (07:47):
You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If
you have a question or commentthat you would like addressed on
our program, please send anemail to Michael Liben at
michael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
That'smichael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
This content is not intended tobe a substitute for professional
(08:08):
medical advice, diagnosis, ortreatment. The opinions
expressed in the podcast are notthose of Hearts Unite the Globe,
but of the hosts and guests andare intended to spark discussion
about issues pertaining tocongenital heart disease or
bereavement.
Michael Liben (08:27):
Welcome back to "Bereaved But Still Me". We're
talking with Kate Meyer aboutChristian faith and also
bereavement counseling. So let'sdelve into your life as a
counselor. How is it that youtransition from being an
ordained minister into alicensed counselor?
Kate Meyer (08:41):
I was working as a hospital chaplain and a
radiologist came into my officeone day and just kind of dropped
this large question in front ofme that, as you know, purely
seminary training, I did notfeel I had sufficient knowledge
(09:06):
or information to help trulysupport him other than, you
know, just kind of a a blanketprayer type thing. And that that
didn't feel right to me, Ineeded to be able to give him
more. But that was the momentthat propelled me to say, "I
need to pursue more here". Andso I earned my Master's in
(09:30):
Counseling, and then through aseries of internships and
classes and all of those things,became a licensed professional
counselor. And so I was doingboth for several years. Private
practice and then healthcarechaplaincy, and then
Michael Liben (09:48):
I've always thought that the two should go
hand in hand anyway, I thinkbeing a minister or any member
of any clergy requires at somepoint that you're going to have
to give advice to somebody andyou're not a psychologist in
most cases. So I think that kindof training should really be
required because it's going tohappen. I know from other
people's experience that thosecan be particularly difficult
(10:09):
moments, you don't want tooverstep your authority. And
you're not necessarily counter.
So I applaud you, because Ithink that's a great idea. Also,
I think, being a chaplain in thehospital, you're going to be in
situations where people aregoing to unload all over you all
kinds of stuff that you had noidea was even coming. Does that
happen?
Kate Meyer (10:26):
Yes, and I agree with you 100%. I think, too
often, we ordained ministers cansometimes get in our head that
we are trained for all kinds ofcounseling, and we're not, we it
can get really dangerous if wego outside that line without
proper training. And so I thinkit's really important to at
(10:47):
least have a a good basicunderstanding of what counseling
is, and how we can do itresponsibly.
Michael Liben (10:54):
I think it's very important because there's a very
thin line between counseling thesoul, which is what people
expect from you, and counselingthe psyche, which often go hand
in hand. And so again, I thinkit's important that any clergy
should really have someextensive background in
psychology, especially today.
Now, working with people inhospice is, as we know, very
challenging. So why did youchoose to work there with people
(11:18):
who are grieving and confrontingtheir death, or the death of a
loved one?
Kate Meyer (11:23):
One of the reasons I really fell in love with hospice
work is because precisely ofwhat you just named: that death
is on the table. It's not theelephant in the room. You know,
in in hospital chaplaincyeverybody's just kind of dancing
around it, like somehow we can'thave hope for healing and be
(11:45):
very real about what's going on.
And you know, in hospice, we cando that I am able to journey
with people to those very open,honest, raw, sometimes dark
places. So on the chaplaincyside of things that was very
appealing to me. And then when Ihad the opportunity to try
bereavement counseling andexperience that, that was the
(12:06):
moment. I remember the firstclient that it happened with
where I have this awareness ofthis right here, this melding of
these two degrees, in this roleis exactly what I meant to be
doing. Journeying with someone,not doing anything for them, but
(12:26):
going alongside of them, to gofrom utter darkness to light to
learn how to embrace the pain,and navigate their way through
it, instead of avoiding it andfilling it with cliches.
Michael Liben (12:45):
Well, I don't think you can avoid it. I mean,
you're in hospice. So you orsomeone you know, is in hospice,
you can avoid it, it's in frontof you have to look at it.
Kate Meyer (12:52):
Exactly.
Michael Liben (12:53):
So I have a very dear friend who for a long, long
time was a nurse in hospice. Andshe used to say, I'm not a
nurse, I'm a midwife to the nextworld. I thought that was very
sweet. It was a very nice way tolook at it.
Kate Meyer (13:05):
Death, doulas are kind of increasing in numbers.
And that's what she was talkingabout.
Michael Liben (13:10):
She gets people for maybe a couple of weeks. And
she has to sort of guide themand calm them and, and hold on.
Only I think special people cando that. And I know this,
because we had a minister earlyon in the earliest years of this
program, who also started griefcounseling in hospital. And he
tells the story that one nighthe was waiting, a woman had
(13:31):
died, and he was with the sonand they were waiting for the
father to the husband to arrive.
And the son just looked at himand said, "How did you get such
a lousy job?" - and I changedthe word. But it's true, because
you must be built differentlythan most people in order to be
able to do that. And Iappreciate it.
Kate Meyer (13:48):
Thank you.
Michael Liben (13:50):
Now we're going to learn about how you came to
put together a book for thegrief community in the next
segment. But before we getthere, tell me a little bit as a
counselor what you believepeople who are grieving need to
know about the inevitable endingall of us face, our own death
and the death of someone welove.
Kate Meyer (14:07):
I think it's the inevitability of it that needs
our greatest awareness. That wedon't need to live life always
focused on dying. But we alsoneed to be aware of it, to know
that we can live life in a waythat is full. And when we are
(14:29):
grieving, whether that's lossfrom human death or loss of
another kind. When we aregrieving we have the same job of
facing it, embracing it,experiencing it, not turning
from it. So as much as we tellpeople, embrace life, live life,
experience it to the full.
That's what I think people needto know about grief, that the
(14:53):
way for it to become lessintrusive, is to make it a
conscious effort to do the work.
Michael Liben (15:03):
I'm going to throw one at you from the side.
When we first met, a couple ofweeks ago, we were talking about
that moment of grief wherepeople maybe need a break from
God. And you said, it's okay tobe angry, it's okay to walk away
from God for a while, not toolong, for a while. Tell me more
about that. Because I think thatwas the thing that really stuck
with me when we first met thatreally hit me very hard, in a
(15:25):
very real way, because I hadsimilar conversations with
myself when my daughter died.
Kate Meyer (15:30):
I began to recognize a pattern in my clients who
identified as Christians. I livein an area of West Michigan,
where there are reformed andChristian reformed, and Baptist,
and churches just all over theplaces. And within that, there
was this pattern of peoplecoming and needing to talk about
(15:51):
their grief, and simultaneouslyfeeling shame and guilt for even
grieving in the first placebecause they felt and believed,
whether from something theyobserved or something,
specifically a pastor, elder,deacon, someone in the
congregation had spoken to them,that they weren't allowed to
(16:12):
grieve; that they were simply torejoice that their person was in
heaven. And I heard it far toomany times. And I needed people
to see and look at scripture ina way that allowed them to open
their eyes and recognize theexamples we have of people being
angry at God and questioning Godand doubting God's role and just
(16:38):
even questioning God'sexistence. And that that is
okay. We don't have to put onthis facade, God doesn't need
that from us. And so that'swhere that comes from just a
piece of permission giving towhatever you feel is okay. Let
(16:59):
yourself feel it because that'show you move through it.
Michael Liben (17:05):
If you've enjoyed listening to this program,
please visit our website,heartsunitetheglobe.org and make
a contribution. This program isa presentation of Hearts Unite
the Globe, and is part of theHUG Podcast Network. Hearts
Unite the Globe is a nonprofitorganization devoted to
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(17:28):
pertaining to the CHD community,please visit our website at
congenitalheartdefects.com. Forinformation about CHD, hospitals
that treat CHD survivors, summercamps for CHD families, and
much, much more. Before thebreak, we learned how God called
you to be an ordained minister,and how you felt compelled to
minister to people throughcounseling. Now let's talk about
(17:51):
your book, and tell us why youwrote your book and who you
believe is the audience for thisbook.
Kate Meyer (17:57):
I wrote this book because it became evident to me,
I think I always knew itindividually that the "Church",
"capital C Church" doesn't dogrief well. But as I became more
fully immersed in the world ofbereavement counseling and saw
(18:17):
client after client and heardstories from my colleagues of
their clients experiencing thesame things of being guilted or
shamed for grief, which is avery natural reaction, something
that of course, is going tohappen when we lose someone from
death or, or something else. Andso, to me, it is something that
(18:43):
I think, just needed to be outthere to correct this
mistreatment of grief that isout in the church kind of in
this broad focus. And so, theaudience that I hope this book
reaches is a multitude - active,current active grievers, those
(19:07):
who are anticipating a death, tokind of prepare themselves a
little bit. Those who maybeexperienced a significant death
several years ago and since thatthere are some pieces of that
grief that still need to beworked out. But it's also for
pastors, and teachers, andcounselors. We can't all be
(19:30):
experts on everything. In thebook I refer to grievers and
helpers. And my hope is thatthis book will provide the
helpers healthy, affirming,empowering ways to walk
alongside of grievers in a waythat's not judgmental, in a way
(19:51):
that isn't shaming, in a waythat creates space for people to
go wherever it is they need togo even if that means turning
away from God for a season,however long that season might
be.
Michael Liben (20:06):
Did I miss something? Is there something in
Christian teaching that tellspeople not to mourn? Or are they
being shamed because they mightturn away from God for a moment
and that changes theconversation from the point of
view of the clergy? I mean, didI miss something there that I'm
not aware of?
Kate Meyer (20:23):
You did not miss anything. I, I mean, that's part
of the reason for this book isthat, to me, scripture is so
clear in its support of grief, Ithink the problem is we rush,
Christianity oftentimes rushesto this end game of getting
people to focus on heaven. Just,just believe in heaven believe
(20:43):
and, you know, believe in whatJesus is doing. But there's this
whole life on Earth that we aremeant to live. And there are
experiences that we have beencreated, to go through to
experience, the good and thebad, the hard and the easy. And
so I think the shame comes fromthis really misguided,
(21:04):
misunderstood notion of heavenfixes everything. And while
people, after they die arerestored, and redeemed, and all
of those things and theirsuffering is ended, yes. But we
are still here, we still have tolive life in a world that has
been shaken and shattered. Andso to pull someone out of that
(21:26):
is just, it's just wrong.
Michael Liben (21:28):
So if I understand you correctly, the
concept of people being inheaven and safe or even in the
heart world we talked about,there are kids who are repaired,
that might be comforting in someway. But we still have to deal
with the reality here on earthof the people who are doing the
grieving. Is that what getsmissed?
Kate Meyer (21:47):
Yes, I think it comes out as either or, and it's
meant to be both and. Right?
That both of those things canexist, you can take comfort in
what they're now experiencing.
And you can deal with the painthat they are not here, in this
world, living in your life.
Michael Liben (22:08):
I think it's really important to focus where
the pain is, it's comfortingmaybe to think that somebody's
in heaven. And that's okay forthem. But I'm still here. And I
still hurt. And I'm angry andI'm mad. Now, you said
something, you teased somethingreally interesting that there
are biblical examples of peoplewho turn away. And, I would
(22:28):
assume, come back. Can you giveme one of those?
Kate Meyer (22:31):
I think the psalms are really my my go to example
of, you know, there, there areso many lament psalms that just
are writers pouring out this,"Where have you gone? Why aren't
you here? Why do my enemiessucceed against me?" To me that
is support and validation,straight from God that these
(22:55):
things happen. God might alwaysbe with us, but we aren't always
going to feel it.
Michael Liben (23:00):
Right. Absolutely true, absolutely true. You're
right, the psalms are filledwith stories of people who are
angry. The psalms are attributedlargely to King David and he
often gets angry, and he wantsto stomp around the room. But in
the end, he comes back. And whenhe dies, and he charges Solomon
to go on, he says, you know,always remember to be with God,
(23:22):
and God is always there. Andyet, he needed to do that. A lot
of people on this program havetold me over the years that
we're talking about in the US atany rate, they don't know of any
preordained or pre set regularway to mourn. And I think you
may be right, I think whatthey're missing here is that
stomping around the room, andbeing angry, getting rid of all
of that.
Kate Meyer (23:42):
Yeah, there's a whole chapter in the book on
emotions for that very reason.
Because, particularly in the US,and I think within even more so
I would say in Christiancommunities within the US
emotional expression has beenmuted, to teach children to stop
having temper tantrums, which,as an aside, I think is exactly
what Jonah was doing wasthrowing a temper tantrum. Okay.
(24:04):
So we teach children that youhave to stop dropping to the
floor and pounding your fistsand feet into the ground and
screaming, but we don't givethem a replacement. We don't
teach that it is okay to havethose emotions. What we need to
do is change the way you'reexpressing them. Don't stop
expressing them, just changethem to a way that's safer for
(24:26):
all involved. And so, yeah, whenyou talk about stomping around,
that's a really wonderful,healthy outlet. But that's where
I think grief continues to getmuted because we don't allow
ourselves consistency withexpression of emotions, for a
whole host of reasons.
Michael Liben (24:47):
I get that I really do. I just want to go
back for a second, by noweverybody wants a copy of your
book. So let's go back the bookis called...
Kate Meyer (24:56):
"Faith Doesn't Erase Grief - Embracing the Experience
and Finding Hope".
Michael Liben (25:02):
There it is.
Perfect. And it's true; faithdoesn't necessarily erase grief.
We often, those of us who arepeople of faith, we will often
use our faith, or work withinour faith, in order to help
embrace the situation, in orderto create some sort of orderly
understanding. But that alone isnot enough, you have to really
like, that you have to have atemper tantrum of one sort or
(25:22):
another.
Kate Meyer (25:25):
Yeah, have to do the work is... not only does faith
not erase grief, but faith doesnot excuse you from doing grief.
There's work that needs to bedone, so that you can be whole,
and that you can continue tomove forward in your own life
and become who you are createdto be. There's just no way of
getting around it, we have to dothe grief work.
Michael Liben (25:46):
That should be obvious to so many people. And
one of the reasons I'm a littlesurprised by this is because in
my faith, things are so muchmore organized. We take a week
out. And we really work outgrief with the community
together, and it can go on foras long as 11 months, but in
various stages, that help bringyou back into the community. And
(26:07):
maybe that's what's missing foryou. I don't know,
Kate Meyer (26:09):
I 100% think that that is a big part of it. One of
the scriptural examples I use isthe story of Joseph going back
to bury Israel. And the lengthof that journey in miles and
days and the amount of communitythat is surrounding him. And
(26:32):
here, we do things here in theStates and in Christianity, I
think in particular,unfortunately, which is supposed
to be a really communityrelationship based religion.
Somehow we do these things inisolation. We do the funeral
memorial service of, celebrationof life, whatever term you want
(26:55):
to use. And then, you know,maybe there's a month or two of
food trains. And then that's it,and suddenly people are saying,
"What's the matter? Why are yousad?"
Michael Liben (27:06):
We already did lunch? Yeah, I get it. I get it.
Kate Meyer (27:09):
Yeah. Just pray, God will take care of it. Like what?
No!
Michael Liben (27:12):
I want to ask you this, please share with us one
important thing that you want usto know about you, your
ministry, and your book, justone nugget, which people should
take away from here.
Kate Meyer (27:21):
For me, it all boils down to this concept of hope.
And what I mean by that is thateven when things are really
dark, there's a teeny, tiny,minuscule, pinprick of light
that allows me to continue. Thateven when I don't have a clue
what's happening and I don'tknow where God is, and I don't
(27:41):
understand what the point of myfaith is. That even in that,
there's a sustaining cushionthat doesn't allow me to give
up, that propels me forward. Andso, to me, that's what all of
this is about is the people whoare in the depths of their grief
(28:02):
to come through to the otherside of child loss and do a
podcast that continues to, Iimagine, at times put you back
in that space. That to me ishope, that to me is you being
able to say to other parents,"Isomehow am here, and you can get
here too, right?" and that, tome, is what this is about. The
(28:26):
book, my approach to counseling,my fiction, writing, my blog,
all of these things are abouthelping people find the things
that empower them, and allowthem to continue, which to me
gets boiled down into tha (28:41):
hope.
Michael Liben (28:44):
Kate Meyer, thank you so much for joining us on
"Bereaved But Still Me" I amsmarter now than I was a half
hour ago.
Kate Meyer (28:51):
Thank you very much for having me. I love what this
podcast offers people and I amgrateful to have been invited
on.
Michael Liben (28:59):
And I'm blushing I am. And that concludes this
episode of "Bereaved But StillMe". Again, I want to thank Kate
Meyer for sharing herexperiences with us and how she
feels our faith can help usthrough our grief. If you've
enjoyed this program, I'd liketo invite you to be a patron.
For a monthly pledge you canhelp us continue to provide
programming to the griefcommunity, Just visit us at
(29:20):
www.patreon.com/hearttoheart.
Until next time, remember,moving forward is not moving
away.
Anna Jaworski (29:29):
Thank you for joining us, we hope you have
felt supported in your griefjourney. "Bereaved But Still Me"
is a monthly podcast, and a newepisode is released on the first
Thursday of each month. You canhear our podcast anywhere you
normally listen to podcasts atany time. Join us again next
month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".
When we are grieving we have the same job of facing
it, embracing it, experiencingit, not turning from it.
Michael Liben (00:15):
What pushed Kate into becoming an ordained
minister? How did being aminister channel her into
becoming a hospice counselor?
What inspired Kate Meyer towrite a book? Welcome friends to
the Sixth Season of "BereavedBut Still Me". Our purpose is to
empower members of ourcommunity. I am Michael Liben,
and the father of three children- Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel,
my youngest daughter, was bornwith a heart defect and later
she develop autism and epilepsy.
(00:38):
Losing Liel at fifteen is whathas brought me here to be the
host of this program. Here withus today is our guest, Kate
Meyer. Kate Meyer is an ordainedminister, licensed professional
counselor, and author who ispassionate about grief
awareness. She strives forsupport for all people,
specifically the Christiancommunity, due to the
miseducation of grief which shesays the church has perpetuated.
(01:02):
Kate Meyer is also an author.
"The Red Couch" is her fictionnovel, which follows Toni as she
embraces new life through theprocess of grieving her
grandmother. Most recently, Katehas written a nonfiction book.
"Faith Doesn't Erase Grief"became available anywhere you
purchase books in July 2022. Andshe's here with us today to
share with us her journey fromminister to counselor to
(01:22):
published author. Kate, thankyou so much for joining us on
"Bereaved But Still Me".
Kate Meyer (01:28):
Yeah, thank you for having me, Michael, happy to be
here.
Michael Liben (01:31):
Let's start by talking about your faith. What
pushed you into becoming anordained minister?,
Kate Meyer (01:36):
I kind of like to tell the story that I was more
pulled, kicking and screaminginstead of, I mean pushed, I
guess, kind of works too but theimage of myself really
resisting. I went to college,leaning towards youth ministry
and enjoyed that, I pursued thatduring college had internships
(01:59):
that I liked. But I could notignore this feeling in the sense
that there was more that I wassupposed to be doing. What I
didn't know was the nuance ofseminary, that there was
something for me other than achurch because the one thing I
knew for certain was that I didnot want to pastor a church. So
(02:21):
I continued on and God and Ibattled back and forth. And
finally I ended up in seminaryat Western Theological in
Holland, Michigan. And thereover those three years, doors
opened, and I was able to seepaths of ministry that did not
(02:41):
include pastoring a church. Andthat's when I started to really
feel like I was coming intomyself and I discovered
healthcare chaplaincy and whatit looked like to care for
people, both staff and residentsof long term care facilities,
patients of hospitals, and useministry in that context, and
(03:05):
live into that calling. And thatwas a really gentle entry into
ministry is what I would sayabout that. So yeah, I went
kicking and screaming, but Iknow that it was 100% the right
start to this journey to get meto where I am now.
Michael Liben (03:23):
By the way, you should feel complimented kicking
and screaming is not unlike mostof the prophets. Right? They
were called; they did not wantto go.
Kate Meyer (03:31):
Yes. Yes. So poor Jacob has a permanent limp
because of it. So...
Michael Liben (03:36):
That's right.
That's right. And we could talkabout Jonah. Nobody wants to do
this. Nobody wanted to do this.
And I appreciate that. But youhave spent some time ministering
in a pulpit. I know thatrecently you have, you want to
tell me about that?
Kate Meyer (03:49):
The reason I didn't want to be in a church is
because I personally, when Ilook at it, I just see a lot of
drama. And it's often where thehypocrisy is found. It's very
judgy. I know. But I'm human,and so sometimes I'm judgmental,
but I do a lot of pulpit supply.
So when pastors are on vacation,or when a church is in
(04:10):
transition, then I will go andpreach. And I really enjoy that,
I enjoy the process of putting asermon together. I enjoy the act
of preaching. I feel very closewith God and the Holy Spirit in
those moments. And it's a joyfor me to do. And I'm also happy
that I don't have to do it everyweek. So pulpit supplies is is a
(04:33):
really lovely option for someonelike me, who doesn't get to
preach often. But it's a giftwhen I am able to.
Michael Liben (04:46):
You'd never consider doing that as a line of
work?
Kate Meyer (04:49):
I don't think I would. I've seen behind the
curtain too many times. I likebeing able to speak my mind and
I can do that when I'm notpermanently in a church. There's
a lot more rules that need to befollowed.
Michael Liben (05:06):
I definitely understand that I can tell you
that also from a Jewishperspective, we have the same
thing. A pulpit rabbi is not ajoyous job. I was the president
of a synagogue for two years.
That's enough.
Kate Meyer (05:17):
Yeah, right. Right.
Yeah. That's the behind thecurtain that I'm talking about.
Right?
Michael Liben (05:21):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. So you said that youfelt called to be a minister,
even though it's not the careerthat you would have chosen for
yourself. How difficult is itfor a woman even in this time in
history to be a minister? Andwhat advice would you have for
other women who feel called thatway?
Kate Meyer (05:36):
Unfortunately, I feel like we're in another kind
of ramp up against women inministry. The positive within
that is that those of us who areordained are getting stronger in
using our voice and bolder inspeaking up to the call that God
(05:59):
places on men and women. And soto women who are considering
that who are sensing that thatis a part of their calling, I
would encourage you to pursue itboldly, surround yourself with
other women, and with affirmingmen, because they are there,
(06:20):
there are men who affirm womenin ministry, they just sometimes
aren't the loudest. And so weneed to tune out the voices that
diminish us, or shame us orinvalidate us. And really listen
for those that affirm andencourage and support.
Michael Liben (06:41):
I remember growing up in the US that women
started to become ministers, Iwould guess, somewhere in the
70s in the mid to late 70s. Iwould assume by now that it's
more common, and it's more onview, but I here views that is
that that's not the case.
Kate Meyer (06:56):
It kind of depends on the denomination. So I'm, I'm
a part of the Reformed Church inAmerica. And we've been
ordaining women for 40 plusyears at this point. However,
there's still a large branchwithin the denomination that
does not refer to women inministry. So it's, yeah, it's
denomination by denomination.
And then even within that, therejust are groups who just don't
(07:19):
actively seek it. And then thereare some who actively remain
opposed. So in May of 2022, Ihad the opportunity to be the
first woman in a pulpit in WestMichigan at a church who just
never did before. So you know,2022 first woman, so that just
shows I think how much this isstill a battle.
Anna Jaworski (07:47):
You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If
you have a question or commentthat you would like addressed on
our program, please send anemail to Michael Liben at
michael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
That'smichael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
This content is not intended tobe a substitute for professional
(08:08):
medical advice, diagnosis, ortreatment. The opinions
expressed in the podcast are notthose of Hearts Unite the Globe,
but of the hosts and guests andare intended to spark discussion
about issues pertaining tocongenital heart disease or
bereavement.
Michael Liben (08:27):
Welcome back to "Bereaved But Still Me". We're
talking with Kate Meyer aboutChristian faith and also
bereavement counseling. So let'sdelve into your life as a
counselor. How is it that youtransition from being an
ordained minister into alicensed counselor?
Kate Meyer (08:41):
I was working as a hospital chaplain and a
radiologist came into my officeone day and just kind of dropped
this large question in front ofme that, as you know, purely
seminary training, I did notfeel I had sufficient knowledge
(09:06):
or information to help trulysupport him other than, you
know, just kind of a a blanketprayer type thing. And that that
didn't feel right to me, Ineeded to be able to give him
more. But that was the momentthat propelled me to say, "I
need to pursue more here". Andso I earned my Master's in
(09:30):
Counseling, and then through aseries of internships and
classes and all of those things,became a licensed professional
counselor. And so I was doingboth for several years. Private
practice and then healthcarechaplaincy, and then
Michael Liben (09:48):
I've always thought that the two should go
hand in hand anyway, I thinkbeing a minister or any member
of any clergy requires at somepoint that you're going to have
to give advice to somebody andyou're not a psychologist in
most cases. So I think that kindof training should really be
required because it's going tohappen. I know from other
people's experience that thosecan be particularly difficult
(10:09):
moments, you don't want tooverstep your authority. And
you're not necessarily counter.
So I applaud you, because Ithink that's a great idea. Also,
I think, being a chaplain in thehospital, you're going to be in
situations where people aregoing to unload all over you all
kinds of stuff that you had noidea was even coming. Does that
happen?
Kate Meyer (10:26):
Yes, and I agree with you 100%. I think, too
often, we ordained ministers cansometimes get in our head that
we are trained for all kinds ofcounseling, and we're not, we it
can get really dangerous if wego outside that line without
proper training. And so I thinkit's really important to at
(10:47):
least have a a good basicunderstanding of what counseling
is, and how we can do itresponsibly.
Michael Liben (10:54):
I think it's very important because there's a very
thin line between counseling thesoul, which is what people
expect from you, and counselingthe psyche, which often go hand
in hand. And so again, I thinkit's important that any clergy
should really have someextensive background in
psychology, especially today.
Now, working with people inhospice is, as we know, very
challenging. So why did youchoose to work there with people
(11:18):
who are grieving and confrontingtheir death, or the death of a
loved one?
Kate Meyer (11:23):
One of the reasons I really fell in love with hospice
work is because precisely ofwhat you just named: that death
is on the table. It's not theelephant in the room. You know,
in in hospital chaplaincyeverybody's just kind of dancing
around it, like somehow we can'thave hope for healing and be
(11:45):
very real about what's going on.
And you know, in hospice, we cando that I am able to journey
with people to those very open,honest, raw, sometimes dark
places. So on the chaplaincyside of things that was very
appealing to me. And then when Ihad the opportunity to try
bereavement counseling andexperience that, that was the
(12:06):
moment. I remember the firstclient that it happened with
where I have this awareness ofthis right here, this melding of
these two degrees, in this roleis exactly what I meant to be
doing. Journeying with someone,not doing anything for them, but
(12:26):
going alongside of them, to gofrom utter darkness to light to
learn how to embrace the pain,and navigate their way through
it, instead of avoiding it andfilling it with cliches.
Michael Liben (12:45):
Well, I don't think you can avoid it. I mean,
you're in hospice. So you orsomeone you know, is in hospice,
you can avoid it, it's in frontof you have to look at it.
Kate Meyer (12:52):
Exactly.
Michael Liben (12:53):
So I have a very dear friend who for a long, long
time was a nurse in hospice. Andshe used to say, I'm not a
nurse, I'm a midwife to the nextworld. I thought that was very
sweet. It was a very nice way tolook at it.
Kate Meyer (13:05):
Death, doulas are kind of increasing in numbers.
And that's what she was talkingabout.
Michael Liben (13:10):
She gets people for maybe a couple of weeks. And
she has to sort of guide themand calm them and, and hold on.
Only I think special people cando that. And I know this,
because we had a minister earlyon in the earliest years of this
program, who also started griefcounseling in hospital. And he
tells the story that one nighthe was waiting, a woman had
(13:31):
died, and he was with the sonand they were waiting for the
father to the husband to arrive.
And the son just looked at himand said, "How did you get such
a lousy job?" - and I changedthe word. But it's true, because
you must be built differentlythan most people in order to be
able to do that. And Iappreciate it.
Kate Meyer (13:48):
Thank you.
Michael Liben (13:50):
Now we're going to learn about how you came to
put together a book for thegrief community in the next
segment. But before we getthere, tell me a little bit as a
counselor what you believepeople who are grieving need to
know about the inevitable endingall of us face, our own death
and the death of someone welove.
Kate Meyer (14:07):
I think it's the inevitability of it that needs
our greatest awareness. That wedon't need to live life always
focused on dying. But we alsoneed to be aware of it, to know
that we can live life in a waythat is full. And when we are
(14:29):
grieving, whether that's lossfrom human death or loss of
another kind. When we aregrieving we have the same job of
facing it, embracing it,experiencing it, not turning
from it. So as much as we tellpeople, embrace life, live life,
experience it to the full.
That's what I think people needto know about grief, that the
(14:53):
way for it to become lessintrusive, is to make it a
conscious effort to do the work.
Michael Liben (15:03):
I'm going to throw one at you from the side.
When we first met, a couple ofweeks ago, we were talking about
that moment of grief wherepeople maybe need a break from
God. And you said, it's okay tobe angry, it's okay to walk away
from God for a while, not toolong, for a while. Tell me more
about that. Because I think thatwas the thing that really stuck
with me when we first met thatreally hit me very hard, in a
(15:25):
very real way, because I hadsimilar conversations with
myself when my daughter died.
Kate Meyer (15:30):
I began to recognize a pattern in my clients who
identified as Christians. I livein an area of West Michigan,
where there are reformed andChristian reformed, and Baptist,
and churches just all over theplaces. And within that, there
was this pattern of peoplecoming and needing to talk about
(15:51):
their grief, and simultaneouslyfeeling shame and guilt for even
grieving in the first placebecause they felt and believed,
whether from something theyobserved or something,
specifically a pastor, elder,deacon, someone in the
congregation had spoken to them,that they weren't allowed to
(16:12):
grieve; that they were simply torejoice that their person was in
heaven. And I heard it far toomany times. And I needed people
to see and look at scripture ina way that allowed them to open
their eyes and recognize theexamples we have of people being
angry at God and questioning Godand doubting God's role and just
(16:38):
even questioning God'sexistence. And that that is
okay. We don't have to put onthis facade, God doesn't need
that from us. And so that'swhere that comes from just a
piece of permission giving towhatever you feel is okay. Let
(16:59):
yourself feel it because that'show you move through it.
Michael Liben (17:05):
If you've enjoyed listening to this program,
please visit our website,heartsunitetheglobe.org and make
a contribution. This program isa presentation of Hearts Unite
the Globe, and is part of theHUG Podcast Network. Hearts
Unite the Globe is a nonprofitorganization devoted to
providing resources to thecongenital heart defect
community to educate, empower,and enrich the lives of our
community members. If you wouldlike access to free resources
(17:28):
pertaining to the CHD community,please visit our website at
congenitalheartdefects.com. Forinformation about CHD, hospitals
that treat CHD survivors, summercamps for CHD families, and
much, much more. Before thebreak, we learned how God called
you to be an ordained minister,and how you felt compelled to
minister to people throughcounseling. Now let's talk about
(17:51):
your book, and tell us why youwrote your book and who you
believe is the audience for thisbook.
Kate Meyer (17:57):
I wrote this book because it became evident to me,
I think I always knew itindividually that the "Church",
"capital C Church" doesn't dogrief well. But as I became more
fully immersed in the world ofbereavement counseling and saw
(18:17):
client after client and heardstories from my colleagues of
their clients experiencing thesame things of being guilted or
shamed for grief, which is avery natural reaction, something
that of course, is going tohappen when we lose someone from
death or, or something else. Andso, to me, it is something that
(18:43):
I think, just needed to be outthere to correct this
mistreatment of grief that isout in the church kind of in
this broad focus. And so, theaudience that I hope this book
reaches is a multitude - active,current active grievers, those
(19:07):
who are anticipating a death, tokind of prepare themselves a
little bit. Those who maybeexperienced a significant death
several years ago and since thatthere are some pieces of that
grief that still need to beworked out. But it's also for
pastors, and teachers, andcounselors. We can't all be
(19:30):
experts on everything. In thebook I refer to grievers and
helpers. And my hope is thatthis book will provide the
helpers healthy, affirming,empowering ways to walk
alongside of grievers in a waythat's not judgmental, in a way
(19:51):
that isn't shaming, in a waythat creates space for people to
go wherever it is they need togo even if that means turning
away from God for a season,however long that season might
be.
Michael Liben (20:06):
Did I miss something? Is there something in
Christian teaching that tellspeople not to mourn? Or are they
being shamed because they mightturn away from God for a moment
and that changes theconversation from the point of
view of the clergy? I mean, didI miss something there that I'm
not aware of?
Kate Meyer (20:23):
You did not miss anything. I, I mean, that's part
of the reason for this book isthat, to me, scripture is so
clear in its support of grief, Ithink the problem is we rush,
Christianity oftentimes rushesto this end game of getting
people to focus on heaven. Just,just believe in heaven believe
(20:43):
and, you know, believe in whatJesus is doing. But there's this
whole life on Earth that we aremeant to live. And there are
experiences that we have beencreated, to go through to
experience, the good and thebad, the hard and the easy. And
so I think the shame comes fromthis really misguided,
(21:04):
misunderstood notion of heavenfixes everything. And while
people, after they die arerestored, and redeemed, and all
of those things and theirsuffering is ended, yes. But we
are still here, we still have tolive life in a world that has
been shaken and shattered. Andso to pull someone out of that
(21:26):
is just, it's just wrong.
Michael Liben (21:28):
So if I understand you correctly, the
concept of people being inheaven and safe or even in the
heart world we talked about,there are kids who are repaired,
that might be comforting in someway. But we still have to deal
with the reality here on earthof the people who are doing the
grieving. Is that what getsmissed?
Kate Meyer (21:47):
Yes, I think it comes out as either or, and it's
meant to be both and. Right?
That both of those things canexist, you can take comfort in
what they're now experiencing.
And you can deal with the painthat they are not here, in this
world, living in your life.
Michael Liben (22:08):
I think it's really important to focus where
the pain is, it's comfortingmaybe to think that somebody's
in heaven. And that's okay forthem. But I'm still here. And I
still hurt. And I'm angry andI'm mad. Now, you said
something, you teased somethingreally interesting that there
are biblical examples of peoplewho turn away. And, I would
(22:28):
assume, come back. Can you giveme one of those?
Kate Meyer (22:31):
I think the psalms are really my my go to example
of, you know, there, there areso many lament psalms that just
are writers pouring out this,"Where have you gone? Why aren't
you here? Why do my enemiessucceed against me?" To me that
is support and validation,straight from God that these
(22:55):
things happen. God might alwaysbe with us, but we aren't always
going to feel it.
Michael Liben (23:00):
Right. Absolutely true, absolutely true. You're
right, the psalms are filledwith stories of people who are
angry. The psalms are attributedlargely to King David and he
often gets angry, and he wantsto stomp around the room. But in
the end, he comes back. And whenhe dies, and he charges Solomon
to go on, he says, you know,always remember to be with God,
(23:22):
and God is always there. Andyet, he needed to do that. A lot
of people on this program havetold me over the years that
we're talking about in the US atany rate, they don't know of any
preordained or pre set regularway to mourn. And I think you
may be right, I think whatthey're missing here is that
stomping around the room, andbeing angry, getting rid of all
of that.
Kate Meyer (23:42):
Yeah, there's a whole chapter in the book on
emotions for that very reason.
Because, particularly in the US,and I think within even more so
I would say in Christiancommunities within the US
emotional expression has beenmuted, to teach children to stop
having temper tantrums, which,as an aside, I think is exactly
what Jonah was doing wasthrowing a temper tantrum. Okay.
(24:04):
So we teach children that youhave to stop dropping to the
floor and pounding your fistsand feet into the ground and
screaming, but we don't givethem a replacement. We don't
teach that it is okay to havethose emotions. What we need to
do is change the way you'reexpressing them. Don't stop
expressing them, just changethem to a way that's safer for
(24:26):
all involved. And so, yeah, whenyou talk about stomping around,
that's a really wonderful,healthy outlet. But that's where
I think grief continues to getmuted because we don't allow
ourselves consistency withexpression of emotions, for a
whole host of reasons.
Michael Liben (24:47):
I get that I really do. I just want to go
back for a second, by noweverybody wants a copy of your
book. So let's go back the bookis called...
Kate Meyer (24:56):
"Faith Doesn't Erase Grief - Embracing the Experience
and Finding Hope".
Michael Liben (25:02):
There it is.
Perfect. And it's true; faithdoesn't necessarily erase grief.
We often, those of us who arepeople of faith, we will often
use our faith, or work withinour faith, in order to help
embrace the situation, in orderto create some sort of orderly
understanding. But that alone isnot enough, you have to really
like, that you have to have atemper tantrum of one sort or
(25:22):
another.
Kate Meyer (25:25):
Yeah, have to do the work is... not only does faith
not erase grief, but faith doesnot excuse you from doing grief.
There's work that needs to bedone, so that you can be whole,
and that you can continue tomove forward in your own life
and become who you are createdto be. There's just no way of
getting around it, we have to dothe grief work.
Michael Liben (25:46):
That should be obvious to so many people. And
one of the reasons I'm a littlesurprised by this is because in
my faith, things are so muchmore organized. We take a week
out. And we really work outgrief with the community
together, and it can go on foras long as 11 months, but in
various stages, that help bringyou back into the community. And
(26:07):
maybe that's what's missing foryou. I don't know,
Kate Meyer (26:09):
I 100% think that that is a big part of it. One of
the scriptural examples I use isthe story of Joseph going back
to bury Israel. And the lengthof that journey in miles and
days and the amount of communitythat is surrounding him. And
(26:32):
here, we do things here in theStates and in Christianity, I
think in particular,unfortunately, which is supposed
to be a really communityrelationship based religion.
Somehow we do these things inisolation. We do the funeral
memorial service of, celebrationof life, whatever term you want
(26:55):
to use. And then, you know,maybe there's a month or two of
food trains. And then that's it,and suddenly people are saying,
"What's the matter? Why are yousad?"
Michael Liben (27:06):
We already did lunch? Yeah, I get it. I get it.
Kate Meyer (27:09):
Yeah. Just pray, God will take care of it. Like what?
No!
Michael Liben (27:12):
I want to ask you this, please share with us one
important thing that you want usto know about you, your
ministry, and your book, justone nugget, which people should
take away from here.
Kate Meyer (27:21):
For me, it all boils down to this concept of hope.
And what I mean by that is thateven when things are really
dark, there's a teeny, tiny,minuscule, pinprick of light
that allows me to continue. Thateven when I don't have a clue
what's happening and I don'tknow where God is, and I don't
(27:41):
understand what the point of myfaith is. That even in that,
there's a sustaining cushionthat doesn't allow me to give
up, that propels me forward. Andso, to me, that's what all of
this is about is the people whoare in the depths of their grief
(28:02):
to come through to the otherside of child loss and do a
podcast that continues to, Iimagine, at times put you back
in that space. That to me ishope, that to me is you being
able to say to other parents,"Isomehow am here, and you can get
here too, right?" and that, tome, is what this is about. The
(28:26):
book, my approach to counseling,my fiction, writing, my blog,
all of these things are abouthelping people find the things
that empower them, and allowthem to continue, which to me
gets boiled down into tha (28:41):
hope.
Michael Liben (28:44):
Kate Meyer, thank you so much for joining us on
"Bereaved But Still Me" I amsmarter now than I was a half
hour ago.
Kate Meyer (28:51):
Thank you very much for having me. I love what this
podcast offers people and I amgrateful to have been invited
on.
Michael Liben (28:59):
And I'm blushing I am. And that concludes this
episode of "Bereaved But StillMe". Again, I want to thank Kate
Meyer for sharing herexperiences with us and how she
feels our faith can help usthrough our grief. If you've
enjoyed this program, I'd liketo invite you to be a patron.
For a monthly pledge you canhelp us continue to provide
programming to the griefcommunity, Just visit us at
(29:20):
www.patreon.com/hearttoheart.
Until next time, remember,moving forward is not moving
away.
Anna Jaworski (29:29):
Thank you for joining us, we hope you have
felt supported in your griefjourney. "Bereaved But Still Me"
is a monthly podcast, and a newepisode is released on the first
Thursday of each month. You canhear our podcast anywhere you
normally listen to podcasts atany time. Join us again next
month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".
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