November 2, 2023 • 36 mins
Have you ever wondered how to navigate your life after a deeply personal loss? This episode brings you the deeply moving and inspiring story of Suzanne Anderson, a respected psychologist, author, coach, and transformational teacher. We delve into her intimate journey from a multilingual senior management consultant to an author and advocate for the bereaved community, after the tragic loss of her husband to suicide. Her candid recounting of their shared memories and the loneliness, shame, and stigma she faced as a suicide survivor will leave a profound impact on your heart.
Suzanne's story serves to remind us of the power of self-compassion and personal growth in the face of adversity. We learn about how Suzanne, dealing with the pain of her husband's death, sought solace in writing retreats, ultimately leading her to author her book, 'You Make Your Path by Walking'. Her experiences and her work with women to prioritize their well-being over others' will shed new light on how self-compassion can be cultivated, especially during the most challenging times.
We wrap up the episode with Suzanne sharing her journey to self-compassion and how her projects have been instrumental in helping others find their inner resilience. Her message of the importance of nurturing one's inner strength and connecting with authentic truth is one that resonates strongly, especially in today's fast-paced world. The conversation not only provides insight into Suzanne's inspirational journey but also underscores the importance of self-care and personal growth. Listen in for an episode filled with raw emotions, inspiring stories, and valuable life lessons.
Links to Suzanne's books:
https://mysterialwoman.com/you-make-your-path-by-walking/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Suzanne Anderson (00:00):
It's sometimes very hard. And I think you have
(00:03):
to be deliberate, and Icertainly did, to keep choosing
life when the one you love themost has died, has chosen to
leave.
Michael Liben (00:19):
What happens when you go from teacher to student
when dealing with grief? How cana wife handle losing her husband
to death by suicide? When itfeels as though you've lost
everything, how can you comeback from that? Welcome friends
to "Bereaved But Still Me". Ourpurpose is to empower members of
the bereaved community. I amMichael Liben, and the father of
three children - Idan, Sapir,and Liel. Liel, my youngest
(00:39):
daughter, was born with a heartdefect, and later she developed
autism and epilepsy. Losing herat 15 is what has brought me
here to be the host of thisprogram. Our guest today is
Suzanne Anderson. Suzanne is apsychologist, author, coach,
leadership consultant, andtransformational teacher. She is
the principal and founder ofMysterial Woman, a social
(01:01):
enterprise dedicated to theawakening, development and
support of women as integralleaders shaping a positive
future. An early pioneer in thefield of experimental learning,
she led the way in using theoutdoors as a classroom for
leadership development, and wasthe co-creator of a highly
acclaimed worldwide women'sempowerment program in the
1990s. Suzanne was the founderof an international consultancy
(01:23):
and worked for over a decadewith Fortune 500 companies,
seven of those years based inParis, as a multilingual senior
management consultantfacilitator, speaker and
leadership coach. Suzanneunexpectedly lost her husband
when he died by suicide in 2012.
She is a published authorincluding her memoir, "You Make
Your Path by Walking". Her lifehas totally changed since she
finished writing her book andlosing her husband. The
(01:45):
shattering of her personality,and her life after her loss, has
given her new perspective onlife, and authentic living.
Today's program is called "YouMake Your Path by Walking"
Suzanne Anderson. Suzanne, thankyou so much for joining us at
"Bereaved But Still Me."
Suzanne Anderson (02:01):
Thank you, Michael. Looking forward to our
conversation together.
Michael Liben (02:05):
Let's start by talking about how you came to
create a business for women, andhow you were writing that book.
Take us back to your life before2012 and how you met David and
what he's meant to you.
Suzanne Anderson (02:16):
I was a management consultant, actually,
in the as you mentioned. And Iwas working in that those times
with the senior leaders ofcompanies that were in that big
shifting from a more command andcontrol, we could say more
masculine model of leadership,to having to share power and
learn how to communicate acrosssilos and so on. And the few
(02:39):
women that were at senior levelsthat I was working at were, were
just stuck, and then become Iguess what we use the term "one
of the boys" like we we learnedhow to lead and I don't think
this was a mistake, by the way.
But we learned how to leadinside this more masculine model
of leadership. But, but womenare really suffering at the same
time, and it was clear thatthere was some issue here, but
(02:59):
they were the most resistant towhat I was there to teach. And
yet they were suffering. So whatwas going on? And it didn't seem
like anybody was reallyaddressing this issue, like what
is it for women to develop in away that is acknowledging of
both their feminine strengthsand their masculine strengths?
(03:21):
So I began actually set up aprivate coaching practice in
Paris, left my consulting firmand just dedicated to women. And
it just feels like in ananosecond, I think there were
so many women that weresuffering. And that took me back
to graduate school because Irealized I was sort of like one
coaching session ahead of myclients in terms of
(03:42):
understanding what was going onand into the field of
specifically, developmentalpsychology. What is it for women
to develop to the next level oftheir potential? And that was 10
years of work. And I put myprograms in universities right
from the very beginning so thatthe exploration of women and
leadership wouldn't be stuck insome little eddy somewhere. And
(04:04):
by the end of 10 years, we hadreally figured some things out.
And my co-author and I weregetting ready to publish what
the, first book which is called"The Way of the Mysterial Woman
- Upgrading How You Live, Love,and Lead." So that takes me to
the end of 2012. David was, ofthat maybe 15 years of that
(04:24):
research, he was probably 12 ofthose. Then I met him on the
island that I lived on, which isjust outside of Seattle, and I
was at the end of a divorcemyself and coming out of that
(04:44):
life. And yeah, we met and itwas the sense that I write about
this in my second book that youmentioned, "You Make Your Path
by Walking". There was a sensewhen I met him of having met my,
and this strangely, like my bestfriend, or something like that
he was so familiar. Yeah, itwas, it was very special. And
(05:07):
his really, his loving, and ourpartnership was a big part of
the safe environment, I couldsay, inside of which I was doing
this very exciting work with, inresearch with women.
Michael Liben (05:21):
Why were women suffering? Were they just trying
to find their way, how to adaptinto...
Suzanne Anderson (05:25):
The suffering was, they actually literally,
you know, the saying inpsychology, "What fires
together, wires together". Theyliterally wired together an
identity that was based on thesemasculine ways of being, and
they left really important partsof themselves behind in that
(05:46):
process. And so the work that Ithen was doing with women and
still very much do, have to dowith really going back to that
'What happened?' in thereearlier, both family of origin
and later in their ownleadership journey. And what
would it mean to to reconnectwith those parts of themselves
that they had put into the, intothe dark closet?
Michael Liben (06:07):
David started having some issues while you
were working on your businessand your book. And what do you
know, now that you didn't knowthen?
Suzanne Anderson (06:14):
I guess, well, one thing that is probably
important to say, which I didknow was that he, about three
months prior to his death, he,actually, kind of came to me one
day and said, "There's somethinggoing on in my head, I don't
know what it is. It's like thescreeching sound, and maybe I've
broken something".... is somepart of his psyche being broken
(06:39):
or something. And we discoveredit was tinnitus, which is a
terrible affliction that happensto a lot of people, kind of
unknown for many until, I'dnever heard of it before until
we started doing the research,and there's no known cure for
it. So it's basically you haveto learn to live with this
terrible screeching. So he hadthat going on. But what I didn't
know at the time, that I didcome to find out later, was
(07:02):
along with that was hisbusiness. And he had an
Indonesian antique businessbased in the United States here
in Seattle, but also a workshopin Java in Indonesia. And it was
about to come down, you know, itwas about to collapse. So he was
propping it up in one way, orborrowing money here to get it
(07:22):
propped up over there, and thenit would fall down in another
corner, as I learned after hedied. And I do feel that the
tinnitus kind of took away hiscapacity to handle this crisis.
Because he wasn't sleeping, hedidn't have the, you know, the
capacity he'd had over the yearsto juggle a retail furniture
(07:43):
business, I'd say.
Michael Liben (07:44):
Before we sneak in a quick break, can you share
a special memory about David ormaybe something special that the
two of you did together?
Suzanne Anderson (07:53):
Hmm, I love the question. We had this
incredible property and I writemore about this in the book, but
that he'd actually built bybringing over antique Indonesian
homes and temples. So it waslike you drive in through the
gate down this long driveway andjust see these a sort of a cross
(08:15):
that were gardens that lookedlike Balinese rice fields, you'd
see the top of Kudus Temple,which is a part of Java, this
kind of mazing teak building,and then you'd see another
little building off in thewetlands. And it was truly a
magical magical place. And oneof our favorite things and
(08:36):
certainly mine was to hostconcerts or meditation retreats
in these beautiful buildings andwe did that often as an offering
to the community so, people thatwe knew who wanted to do a
fundraiser or something likethat, or musicians that we knew.
There was one in particularwhere this incredible musician
(08:59):
from India came over. It waskind of a Ravi Shankar sort of
guy, many probably know and, andwith a tablas player, so he was
the sitar player. But, oh my, itwas just this amazing experience
of being in a temple, weliterally could have been
(09:19):
sitting in India or Indonesiasomewhere. We're about 300
people, both in the, somesitting in the space and some in
the gardens around because itwas an open air thing and they
could listen to the music andthe pitch of the music and the
way that Indian music can go itwas so beautiful and this
incredible loving feeling I hadwith David and we had together
(09:43):
to be hosting; to be able tooffer this to the community is
incredible.
Anna Jaworski (09:49):
You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If
you have a question or commentthat you would like addressed on
our program, please send anemail to Michael Liben at
michael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
That'smichael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
This content is not intended tobe a substitute for professional
(10:09):
medical advice, diagnosis, ortreatment. The opinions
expressed in the podcast are notthose of Hearts Unite the Globe,
but of the hosts and guests andare intended to spark discussion
about issues pertaining tocongenital heart disease or
bereavement.
Michael Liben (10:27):
You adored David and the two of you had a
wonderful symbioticrelationship, then all of a
sudden, something horriblehappened at the very beginning
of 2013. Can you take us throughthat?
Suzanne Anderson (10:36):
There was this exciting moment that I had
mentioned where I've finishedthe manuscript with my
co-author, for the first book,"The Way of the Mysterial
Woman", we were also gettingready for a wedding, David's,
niece, beloved niece, and thenthe son of his best friend, an
Indonesian, were gettingmarried, he'd introduced them,
and they were getting married.
We had just come from, onJanuary the third - on January
(11:00):
the second, I guess it was, fromdinner with his sister, and all
the guests from Indonesia, whowere in Seattle, we'd had this
wonderful night where you'resort of toasting the bride and
groom to be and there was thesense of just all the new
beginnings. I mean, I was aboutto run a program after a year of
taking time out to write, thisnew wedding was happening, there
(11:22):
was this incredible sense ofjoy. And David himself was just
ebullient that night, he waslike this, and he is, he was a
very charming, charming man. Andin that night, he was toasting
everyone and love and the futureand everything. That's the night
of 2013 January 2, 2013. Januarythird in the morning, I woke up
(11:47):
and he had not slept well thenight before. And had had the
screeching tinnitus again in hishead and was rather sort of with
despair, I could say in themorning, and I leave, to leave
the island to take a ferry intoSeattle and work to get ready
for the program I'm running. SoI remember leaving him and the
(12:09):
kind of tenderness of justreally feeling, also the gap
between where he was the nightbefore, and where he was in the
morning. And I reminded him thatwe'll get through this, we'll
figure this tinnitus out, andwe'll have happy hour tonight,
together, and it's all gonna beall right. And we've got this
beautiful wedding coming up intwo days. And so that was my
(12:32):
last conversation with him thatmorning, yeah, very tender. And
I went off into work and thencame home. And the first thing
that concerned me was that Icouldn't reach him, and during
the day I had been trying to, Ihad been texting him because I
was concerned because he was sodown in the morning, I had just
(12:55):
been sending him little lovemessages, which he would always
respond to before and I wassurprised that he wasn't
responding. But, you know, Isort of wrote it off. And, you
know, I think I'll leave thereader to read the story of what
happened for me, but I'll justsay that after hours of
searching for him, we did findhim and he was dead by suicide.
And thus began, for me, a wholedifferent phase of my life from
(13:22):
the moment where I felt poisedready to sort of take flight
really, with my professionallife, and the work that I was
doing and then even in ourfamily with the wedding,
obviously, it was a verydifferent direction my life took
after that.
Michael Liben (13:38):
Tell me a little bit more about being a suicide
survivor. What kind of messagedo you need to share with the
others about living after aloved one's died by suicide?
Because I think for whateverreason, other survivors feel
alone. They must know there areother survivors, but I think
there's a sense of loneliness,and I think there's also a sense
of of survivor's guilt, can youtalk to both of those?
Suzanne Anderson (14:01):
I think there's a tremendous sense of
loneliness that happens withthis particular way of losing a
loved one. And I think that'sprobably the very first thing I
would say to anyone who wasgoing through this or has gone
through this, that is toremember that it is not your
suicide. It's sometimes veryhard, and I think you have to be
(14:22):
deliberate. And I certainly didto keep choosing life, when the
one you love the most, has died,has chosen to leave and to
really claim your own your ownlife. And also, because I think
there's often a lot of shamearound suicide. I know David's
(14:44):
case that certainly was thereand he had written to me, so I
got a letter after he passedaway. And he spoke of his shame
of what he was leaving and whatwas about to happen with his
business and he just... and nothaving the strength to go
through it. I know this partlyfrom talking to people who
attempted suicide and didn'tcomplete it, that there is that
sense of very often of shame ofhow I'm living my life. And this
(15:07):
is an enormous suffering wherethe world just gets so, so
small, there's just nothing butending the pain that they're in.
And so it's super important thatas a survivor, you don't hang
out in that suicide swamp, thatis, the kind of characterized by
shame. And that takes, again,some deliberate action. And for
(15:31):
me, it, it was important to bewilling to bring people in to
bring community around me to notisolate myself, which is exactly
what David did. Anyone who diesby suicide, has, in some way,
isolated themselves. And itreally would have just taken
that one reaching out for ahand, one hand, but they can't
(15:54):
do that in that situation. Sofor me, as a survivor, it was
really important to do whatDavid could not do, which was to
reach out and to have myselfsurrounded in loving community.
Michael Liben (16:05):
Did you experience that sort of
survivor's guilt, though, that,you know, if only I had.. or
maybe that same morning, Ishould have stayed home? Little
things that will plague youforever if you don't deal with
them immediately?
Suzanne Anderson (16:19):
Well, yeah, exactly. I want to say that
that's really the key thing. Itisn't that I didn't feel some of
the shame, and and it isn't thatyou won't feel guilt, because,
of course, you will. I couldn'thelp but think about, what if I
didn't go to work that day? Orhow could I not have seen this
earlier in all the ways thatkind of walk it back to, you
(16:40):
know, thinking, where where wasthis happening? And did I not
see it? and, but very often,there is a real split between
what they show you ofthemselves, and what's going on
behind the scenes, they're verygood at that. And David was
very, very good at that. Sothere was one guy the night
before toasting everybody and inlove with life, and another guy
who's clearly already plannedhis life, and there's a
(17:03):
firewall, a very big firewallbetween those two, and you can't
see that very often as asurvivor, but you do have to
work through the guilt. And thatis not carry that as a burden
with you your whole life. It'sjust like, yeah, if I had stayed
home that morning, for example,I'm quite convinced now that it
(17:24):
would have been the next day, orthe next day, or next day, if
somebody wants to do this andthey have a plan, and they have
really kept this division intheir way of talking to you and
what they're actually what'sactually going on, you're not
going to see it.
Michael Liben (17:40):
I think that's really important to get that
out. Because I think a lot ofpeople will eventually come
around to that understanding, Ithink, because it's natural. But
you have to really get thisthing early. Because...
Suzanne Anderson (17:51):
Absolutely.
Michael Liben (17:52):
Survivor's guilt is just as horrible. And then
you'd have to realize thatsometimes things happen. It's
awful. If you don't take care ofit early, it is terrible.
Suzanne Anderson (18:01):
Right? And that was again, where I think
you need help to do that. Right?
You need you needed friends whoremind you you need a therapist
you need you need to be incommunity because left on your
own those those thoughts canfester as you were saying, into
something really, reallydifficult.
Michael Liben (18:16):
Your second book was, "You Make Your Path by
Walking". Tell me more aboutthat book.
Suzanne Anderson (18:21):
I certainly didn't start out to write the
book, I really was making mypath by walking. Could I live
with the first book, "The Way ofthe Mysterial Woman" was all
about, which is really this wayof being in the world with
whatever arises in the worldthat draws on all of my feminine
and masculine capacities? CouldI live that in this most
(18:45):
difficult situation, you know,that I could have imagined? That
was my first task, or thing, wasto do that. And there was no
guarantee. I mean, in one way, Ihad enormous faith in the
unfolding of what I might call afriendly universe. I had a very
deep and have a very deepspiritual practice. But in
(19:05):
another way, I wasn't at allcertain about the outcome
because I've really losteverything, not just David. But
because of the financialunraveling. I lost my home, my
community, I mean literallyeverything in my outer world, I
closed down my business. It waslike someone who just erased my
life within six months. I wasn'tthere. So the first thing was
(19:26):
really just to, to live it livethrough this. And then about
five years after David died, Iknew it was time for me to write
but not to write a book, towrite for myself. I wouldn't, I
took myself away on writingretreats for about a week, with
it someone's beautiful cottageup in the San Juan Islands. And
(19:49):
I just wrote for myself whathappened. The self of that
moment took my self at themoment when David died by the
hand and kind of walked with herthrough those years that I'd
been through, and I needed to dothat, for me, it was very, very
healing. And then after writingit, I showed it to the editor of
(20:10):
the first book. And she said,"Wow, this you should be
offering to others, this wouldbe really helpful to other
people who are going throughthrough loss, and I think you
should create this into a book".
And so that was how thathappened. That was about two
years ago, I guess,
Michael Liben (20:30):
Not everybody would do that. Years ago, I came
to a realization that you need abest friend. And you can be your
own best friend. And you canguide yourself, and you can do
these things and make it throughdifficult moments. Because
there's always somebody therefor you. Even if that person is
yourself.
Suzanne Anderson (20:50):
I'd say Michael, that that's the, hit on
probably one of the coreconcepts. Obviously, you've
lived through in yourexperience, and that I've lived
through in that I teach in thework that I do, which is this
primary place of compassion forthe self, for who you are, that
(21:11):
self compassion, what it is toreally be with you and with the
you that's going through thelife that you are going through.
And I think that is sadly notvery well cultivated. And a lot
of us, especially as women, Ithink we're, I will say in the
work I do, I see women very goodat tending and caring for
(21:33):
others. And not so good attending and caring for the self,
you know, and recognizing, wow,this is this is really, really
difficult right now and givingourselves the loving connection
that we need.
Michael Liben (21:51):
If you've enjoyed listening to this program,
please visit our website,heartsunitetheglobe.org, and
make a contribution. Thisprogram is a presentation of
Hearts Unite the Globe, and ispart of the HUG Podcast Network.
Hearts Unite the Globe is anonprofit organization devoted
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community members. If you wouldlike access to free resources
(22:14):
pertaining to the CHD community,please visit our website at
congenitalheartdefects.com. Forinformation about CHD, hospitals
that treat CHD survivors, summercamps for CHD families, and
much, much more. We're talkingabout your book. And we know
that you're also an entrepreneurand that you have workshops to
(22:37):
help women. Tell us about yourbusiness now and how you're
helping women.
Suzanne Anderson (22:41):
One way I can think about it is to liberate
ourselves from the limitingbeliefs that are encoded deep
down in the DNA. I mean,literally from millennia of a
more masculine paradigm ofwholeness. And this wasn't
wrong, this was how evolutionunfolded. But in my view, and on
(23:01):
the view of I would say, otherfuturists, we could say this
moment, right now in time is atime when we simply need more of
the feminine to be in balancewith the masculine, we just
can't solve the... Einstein says"You can't solve the problems of
today with the consciousnessthat created them yesterday".
(23:22):
And that's where we are we islike awakening this next level
of consciousness. And I reallysaw that early in my, my
research, and I saw the enormousshift that happened with women.
When we would go back and do thework with, I call this work,
that sort of trauma informedwomen's development because
(23:43):
we're going back to thedevelopmental traumas that
happened when we were younger oreven transgenerational, that
were passed down through timethrough your lineage through
things your, the people in yourculture went through, and the
ways in which those beliefs God,as I mentioned earlier, kind of
hardwired. And so the work thatI do, and I love to do, is to to
(24:08):
help women turn toward thoseparts of ourselves that
basically we, we had to and itwas, we call this in psychology,
"the adaptive child", the smartadaptive child, the wise child
knew that, for example, if angerwasn't acceptable to my
parenting figures, then Ilearned, okay, I gotta get love,
(24:31):
safety, and belonging that iswhat I'm here I have to do that
I'm, I need to survive. So thechild learns to put that
expressive voice in what CarlJung called "the shadow", to
just tuck that away, but itdoesn't go anywhere. it's in the
unconscious. So the work isreally to start to liberate
(24:52):
those parts of the self becausewe need them now. We need them
now for this new consciousness.
So it's very exciting work. I,this isn't what I would call
self help, I'm not reallyinterested in the trying to fix
the self that we have now it'smore the liberation of the self,
the deep self. This is where Ithink those of us that are, you
(25:12):
could say, called through lifeinto the heat of loss in some
way, have the opportunity,that's a very hot fire, I know
from personal experience. Andthe way I hold this is, this can
also be a real accelerator forchange for the very thing I'm
(25:34):
talking about here. In otherwords, it isn't just about how
can I survive this terriblething that's happened to me,
this terrible loss, the end ofone life, or one being I love,
or whatever it is, or at myhealth, maybe? How can going
through this actually liberatemore of my authentic self rather
(25:56):
than reduce me, that's the workthat I do. And I'd say it's
probably stronger and deeperwork now than it ever was,
because of what I lived throughthese last 10 years.
Michael Liben (26:11):
I'm a part of the Heart Family, the families who
have children with heartdefects. And I've said, since
the day she was born, I said,her illness, her condition, what
she has, which has necessarilybeen thrust upon us, it's
something to deal with. It showsus who we really can be, it
shows us where our strengthsare, and how strong we never
(26:33):
thought we would have to be.
It's all in there. And I thinkthat's the point that you're
getting at. And I liked thatbecause we're coming from two
different angles, maybe. Butadversity can really sharpen who
you are, is that where we'regoing,
Suzanne Anderson (26:46):
Everything that is inessential, has the
potential to fall away, right?
The false masks, the ways ofbeing, because you are brought
so abruptly if it's or let's saydramatically, strongly, into the
reality of of what is going on,and that when those masks fall
(27:06):
away, and even in my case wheremy whole future fell away,
because the path I planned withmy husband and our estate and my
company and everything else,that was gone. So what will come
next? The opportunity here is ifyou can make your path by
walking, which is the title ofthe book, you can walk
(27:28):
somewhere, profoundly new. Now Ilike to think somehow that I
could be the self I am today,without David dying, that he
could have faced his challenges.
And it would have meant a lot ofthings and our lives would have
had to change and would havechanged, it would have been
(27:48):
hard. But I will also say Iwouldn't want to give up who I
have become, that is theopportunity. It's very hard to
hear this if you're early in themoment of loss. Whereas it is
all you can be in that moment iswith everything that you've
lost, I understand that. Butwhat I think those of us that
(28:08):
aren't in that moment right nowcan offer is that down the road,
there will come and there cancome a place where you can see
the self you have become. And ina way, I want to say yeah, bow
down to her, really honor her,aknowledge her, recognize the
incredible being she has becomeand that will come as you are
(28:34):
able to be with what is momentby moment through the process.
Michael Liben (28:39):
Well, we talk a lot on this program about post
traumatic growth. And I thinkthat is also why after five
years, we changed the name ofthis program to "Bereaved But
Still Me" because I'm still inthere. I've changed but I'm
still essentially me. And thathasn't changed. I may be
expressing it differently, I mayhave found different strengths.
(29:02):
But I'm not far far removed fromwho I was, I have just, I have
have a newer and a betterpresentation of that.
Suzanne Anderson (29:10):
Or maybe we could say you've removed some of
the veils or the blocks or theskin of the onion or something.
So more, you first of all,because the first thing is you
feel the connection to yourselfmore fully. I can say that for
myself, I could say it's notlike I'm becoming a new person
(29:34):
in the sense of like, I'm stillnot Suzanne, what I can say is
there's more of Suzanne andbecause there's more of me and
because my heart through thebreaking open, there's more
loving of myself. There's also away I broke into the world. I
mean, I have more compassion andlove and I would say presence
(29:58):
with the people I work with orthe others who are suffering in
the world, it's like there'smore of me available now. For
the world.
Michael Liben (30:08):
That is a conclusion that you can come to.
It's something that you canreach for. It's not readily
visible when you begin. But youcan get there. Now, where can we
find your book, and what eventshave you got coming up during
the coming year that we canmaybe find you?
Suzanne Anderson (30:24):
Well, "You Make Your Path by Walking - A
Transformational Field GuideThrough Trauma and Loss".
That's, I think, everywhere youcan get books that's at Amazon.
And, but I always like to say ifyou have a local bookstore, go
to your local bookstore, andorder it, I am a big supporter
of local bookstores. Love that,you might do that. And on my
(30:44):
website, which is "MysterialWoman", mysterialwoman.com.
There's a link to both books,and then a link from there to
various sites where you can buyit, but you can find out more on
my webpage about my own journey.
And I actually even have somephotos there, of the incredible
magical world that I lived inwith my husband and, and so I
(31:07):
know people were asking me,"Wow, I'd love to see what that
place was like". So...
Michael Liben (31:13):
I'm not sure I want to see it. Because it's so
mystical and magical and perfectin my mind, that it might be a
downer. I'm not sure.
Suzanne Anderson (31:20):
Yeah, yeah, it might be that so don't you know?
I know that's the beauty of abook, isn't it that you can
conjure your own imagination?
Michael Liben (31:27):
But you've described it so clear, why would
I want to see a picture of itand ruin it? Yeah, of course.
But, I still, I could understandit. What have you got coming up
in the Fall of 2023. And beyond
Suzanne Anderson (31:39):
My new book just came out in June. So I'm
gonna have a new program, whichI'm super excited about coming
out in October, at the moment,I'm calling it, "The Re-sourcing
Sanctuary, and "You Make YourPath by Walking", and it'll be
for women, and that kind of sixsessions of, really creating the
(32:00):
container that allows you to gothrough times of transition and
loss. And I'm really excitedabout being able to offer that.
I've had a lot of people contactme since my second book came out
asking what programs they cando. And I'll have that coming
out. And all of these will beavailable you can find out about
on my website. So if you'recurious about what I'm up to get
(32:23):
on the mailing list, I don'tsend out things very often. But
when I do, I think there'sthey're worth reading. And then
you'll hear about all the eventscoming up.
Michael Liben (32:32):
What's a lesson that we can give people right
here, right now?
Suzanne Anderson (32:36):
Hmm, I think I'll give you three things. The
first one is this idea that ifyou can accept what is as is so
hard at the beginning, becausewe rightly have this part of the
brain that puts us in denialinitially. And I'm all for that
that's how our nervous systemcan get regulated. But as soon
(32:57):
as possible, being able to gothrough that denial to accept
what is because accepting whatis prepares the ground for what
might become later. And so thisis a sense here of like,
recognizing it isn't about, Ijust got to survive this thing
(33:17):
and get through this and thenget back to my life the way it
was before, and I'll be okay.
It's like no, this is you do notget this one day back, this one
moment back. And can you just bewith what is? And what I found
my own experience is, if youcan, you have more capacity then
for what could potentially openup for you. And then number two
(33:40):
is really, you only need to beable to see the one next stone
ahead of you on the path. Like,that's you make your path by
walking. sometimes when you've,you're going through times, like
I certainly did. And I've losteverything behind me. And I have
no idea if I'll even have a homeor anywhere to live or any
resources out ahead, it's justterrifying. And you can get way
(34:03):
too far ahead of yourself. Butif you can just stay close in
like, you take the one next stepclose in. And that's, that's all
you have to do right now is thatone thing, but there is
movement, you make your path bywalking. I think when you're
going through loss, you need toremember life is a movement and
(34:25):
to keep yourself in thatmovement. And then the third
thing and this is very specificto me, I think relative to
David, but as long as you holdback forgiveness, as long as I
did that, you know you hold backand your own freedom, but for
those that are going throughsuicide, I think that's very
(34:46):
important that could beforgiving yourself. Or forgiving
the other.
Michael Liben (34:51):
Susanne Anderson, the book is "You Make Your Path
by Walking". Thank you so muchfor joining us on "Bereaved But
Still Me. It's going to take mea long time. to process
everything I've heard here, Ithink your insights are deep and
interesting and truthful. I'dlike to say it's been a
pleasure; I just wish thecircumstances had been so much
different for us meeting. Butit's in some sense, it's been a
(35:14):
joy talking with you, and Ithank you so much for joining us
on "Bereaved But Still Me".
Suzanne Anderson (35:17):
Thank you.
Thank you, Michael. It's been avery rich conversation together
with you.
Michael Liben (35:22):
And that concludes this episode of
"Bereaved But Still Me". I wantto thank Suzanne Anderson for
sharing her books, her projects,and her experiences with us.
Please join us again at thebeginning of the month for a
brand new podcast. I'll talkwith you soon but, until then,
please remember moving forwardis not moving away.
Anna Jaworski (35:39):
Thank you for joining us, we help you have
felt supported in your griefjourney. "Bereaved But Still Me"
is a monthly podcast, and a newepisode is released on the first
Thursday of each month. You canhear our podcast anywhere you
normally listen to podcasts atany time. Join us again next
month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".
It's sometimes very hard. And I think you have
(00:03):
to be deliberate, and Icertainly did, to keep choosing
life when the one you love themost has died, has chosen to
leave.
Michael Liben (00:19):
What happens when you go from teacher to student
when dealing with grief? How cana wife handle losing her husband
to death by suicide? When itfeels as though you've lost
everything, how can you comeback from that? Welcome friends
to "Bereaved But Still Me". Ourpurpose is to empower members of
the bereaved community. I amMichael Liben, and the father of
three children - Idan, Sapir,and Liel. Liel, my youngest
(00:39):
daughter, was born with a heartdefect, and later she developed
autism and epilepsy. Losing herat 15 is what has brought me
here to be the host of thisprogram. Our guest today is
Suzanne Anderson. Suzanne is apsychologist, author, coach,
leadership consultant, andtransformational teacher. She is
the principal and founder ofMysterial Woman, a social
(01:01):
enterprise dedicated to theawakening, development and
support of women as integralleaders shaping a positive
future. An early pioneer in thefield of experimental learning,
she led the way in using theoutdoors as a classroom for
leadership development, and wasthe co-creator of a highly
acclaimed worldwide women'sempowerment program in the
1990s. Suzanne was the founderof an international consultancy
(01:23):
and worked for over a decadewith Fortune 500 companies,
seven of those years based inParis, as a multilingual senior
management consultantfacilitator, speaker and
leadership coach. Suzanneunexpectedly lost her husband
when he died by suicide in 2012.
She is a published authorincluding her memoir, "You Make
Your Path by Walking". Her lifehas totally changed since she
finished writing her book andlosing her husband. The
(01:45):
shattering of her personality,and her life after her loss, has
given her new perspective onlife, and authentic living.
Today's program is called "YouMake Your Path by Walking"
Suzanne Anderson. Suzanne, thankyou so much for joining us at
"Bereaved But Still Me."
Suzanne Anderson (02:01):
Thank you, Michael. Looking forward to our
conversation together.
Michael Liben (02:05):
Let's start by talking about how you came to
create a business for women, andhow you were writing that book.
Take us back to your life before2012 and how you met David and
what he's meant to you.
Suzanne Anderson (02:16):
I was a management consultant, actually,
in the as you mentioned. And Iwas working in that those times
with the senior leaders ofcompanies that were in that big
shifting from a more command andcontrol, we could say more
masculine model of leadership,to having to share power and
learn how to communicate acrosssilos and so on. And the few
(02:39):
women that were at senior levelsthat I was working at were, were
just stuck, and then become Iguess what we use the term "one
of the boys" like we we learnedhow to lead and I don't think
this was a mistake, by the way.
But we learned how to leadinside this more masculine model
of leadership. But, but womenare really suffering at the same
time, and it was clear thatthere was some issue here, but
(02:59):
they were the most resistant towhat I was there to teach. And
yet they were suffering. So whatwas going on? And it didn't seem
like anybody was reallyaddressing this issue, like what
is it for women to develop in away that is acknowledging of
both their feminine strengthsand their masculine strengths?
(03:21):
So I began actually set up aprivate coaching practice in
Paris, left my consulting firmand just dedicated to women. And
it just feels like in ananosecond, I think there were
so many women that weresuffering. And that took me back
to graduate school because Irealized I was sort of like one
coaching session ahead of myclients in terms of
(03:42):
understanding what was going onand into the field of
specifically, developmentalpsychology. What is it for women
to develop to the next level oftheir potential? And that was 10
years of work. And I put myprograms in universities right
from the very beginning so thatthe exploration of women and
leadership wouldn't be stuck insome little eddy somewhere. And
(04:04):
by the end of 10 years, we hadreally figured some things out.
And my co-author and I weregetting ready to publish what
the, first book which is called"The Way of the Mysterial Woman
- Upgrading How You Live, Love,and Lead." So that takes me to
the end of 2012. David was, ofthat maybe 15 years of that
(04:24):
research, he was probably 12 ofthose. Then I met him on the
island that I lived on, which isjust outside of Seattle, and I
was at the end of a divorcemyself and coming out of that
(04:44):
life. And yeah, we met and itwas the sense that I write about
this in my second book that youmentioned, "You Make Your Path
by Walking". There was a sensewhen I met him of having met my,
and this strangely, like my bestfriend, or something like that
he was so familiar. Yeah, itwas, it was very special. And
(05:07):
his really, his loving, and ourpartnership was a big part of
the safe environment, I couldsay, inside of which I was doing
this very exciting work with, inresearch with women.
Michael Liben (05:21):
Why were women suffering? Were they just trying
to find their way, how to adaptinto...
Suzanne Anderson (05:25):
The suffering was, they actually literally,
you know, the saying inpsychology, "What fires
together, wires together". Theyliterally wired together an
identity that was based on thesemasculine ways of being, and
they left really important partsof themselves behind in that
(05:46):
process. And so the work that Ithen was doing with women and
still very much do, have to dowith really going back to that
'What happened?' in thereearlier, both family of origin
and later in their ownleadership journey. And what
would it mean to to reconnectwith those parts of themselves
that they had put into the, intothe dark closet?
Michael Liben (06:07):
David started having some issues while you
were working on your businessand your book. And what do you
know, now that you didn't knowthen?
Suzanne Anderson (06:14):
I guess, well, one thing that is probably
important to say, which I didknow was that he, about three
months prior to his death, he,actually, kind of came to me one
day and said, "There's somethinggoing on in my head, I don't
know what it is. It's like thescreeching sound, and maybe I've
broken something".... is somepart of his psyche being broken
(06:39):
or something. And we discoveredit was tinnitus, which is a
terrible affliction that happensto a lot of people, kind of
unknown for many until, I'dnever heard of it before until
we started doing the research,and there's no known cure for
it. So it's basically you haveto learn to live with this
terrible screeching. So he hadthat going on. But what I didn't
know at the time, that I didcome to find out later, was
(07:02):
along with that was hisbusiness. And he had an
Indonesian antique businessbased in the United States here
in Seattle, but also a workshopin Java in Indonesia. And it was
about to come down, you know, itwas about to collapse. So he was
propping it up in one way, orborrowing money here to get it
(07:22):
propped up over there, and thenit would fall down in another
corner, as I learned after hedied. And I do feel that the
tinnitus kind of took away hiscapacity to handle this crisis.
Because he wasn't sleeping, hedidn't have the, you know, the
capacity he'd had over the yearsto juggle a retail furniture
(07:43):
business, I'd say.
Michael Liben (07:44):
Before we sneak in a quick break, can you share
a special memory about David ormaybe something special that the
two of you did together?
Suzanne Anderson (07:53):
Hmm, I love the question. We had this
incredible property and I writemore about this in the book, but
that he'd actually built bybringing over antique Indonesian
homes and temples. So it waslike you drive in through the
gate down this long driveway andjust see these a sort of a cross
(08:15):
that were gardens that lookedlike Balinese rice fields, you'd
see the top of Kudus Temple,which is a part of Java, this
kind of mazing teak building,and then you'd see another
little building off in thewetlands. And it was truly a
magical magical place. And oneof our favorite things and
(08:36):
certainly mine was to hostconcerts or meditation retreats
in these beautiful buildings andwe did that often as an offering
to the community so, people thatwe knew who wanted to do a
fundraiser or something likethat, or musicians that we knew.
There was one in particularwhere this incredible musician
(08:59):
from India came over. It waskind of a Ravi Shankar sort of
guy, many probably know and, andwith a tablas player, so he was
the sitar player. But, oh my, itwas just this amazing experience
of being in a temple, weliterally could have been
(09:19):
sitting in India or Indonesiasomewhere. We're about 300
people, both in the, somesitting in the space and some in
the gardens around because itwas an open air thing and they
could listen to the music andthe pitch of the music and the
way that Indian music can go itwas so beautiful and this
incredible loving feeling I hadwith David and we had together
(09:43):
to be hosting; to be able tooffer this to the community is
incredible.
Anna Jaworski (09:49):
You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If
you have a question or commentthat you would like addressed on
our program, please send anemail to Michael Liben at
michael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
That'smichael@bereavedbutstillme.com.
This content is not intended tobe a substitute for professional
(10:09):
medical advice, diagnosis, ortreatment. The opinions
expressed in the podcast are notthose of Hearts Unite the Globe,
but of the hosts and guests andare intended to spark discussion
about issues pertaining tocongenital heart disease or
bereavement.
Michael Liben (10:27):
You adored David and the two of you had a
wonderful symbioticrelationship, then all of a
sudden, something horriblehappened at the very beginning
of 2013. Can you take us throughthat?
Suzanne Anderson (10:36):
There was this exciting moment that I had
mentioned where I've finishedthe manuscript with my
co-author, for the first book,"The Way of the Mysterial
Woman", we were also gettingready for a wedding, David's,
niece, beloved niece, and thenthe son of his best friend, an
Indonesian, were gettingmarried, he'd introduced them,
and they were getting married.
We had just come from, onJanuary the third - on January
(11:00):
the second, I guess it was, fromdinner with his sister, and all
the guests from Indonesia, whowere in Seattle, we'd had this
wonderful night where you'resort of toasting the bride and
groom to be and there was thesense of just all the new
beginnings. I mean, I was aboutto run a program after a year of
taking time out to write, thisnew wedding was happening, there
(11:22):
was this incredible sense ofjoy. And David himself was just
ebullient that night, he waslike this, and he is, he was a
very charming, charming man. Andin that night, he was toasting
everyone and love and the futureand everything. That's the night
of 2013 January 2, 2013. Januarythird in the morning, I woke up
(11:47):
and he had not slept well thenight before. And had had the
screeching tinnitus again in hishead and was rather sort of with
despair, I could say in themorning, and I leave, to leave
the island to take a ferry intoSeattle and work to get ready
for the program I'm running. SoI remember leaving him and the
(12:09):
kind of tenderness of justreally feeling, also the gap
between where he was the nightbefore, and where he was in the
morning. And I reminded him thatwe'll get through this, we'll
figure this tinnitus out, andwe'll have happy hour tonight,
together, and it's all gonna beall right. And we've got this
beautiful wedding coming up intwo days. And so that was my
(12:32):
last conversation with him thatmorning, yeah, very tender. And
I went off into work and thencame home. And the first thing
that concerned me was that Icouldn't reach him, and during
the day I had been trying to, Ihad been texting him because I
was concerned because he was sodown in the morning, I had just
(12:55):
been sending him little lovemessages, which he would always
respond to before and I wassurprised that he wasn't
responding. But, you know, Isort of wrote it off. And, you
know, I think I'll leave thereader to read the story of what
happened for me, but I'll justsay that after hours of
searching for him, we did findhim and he was dead by suicide.
And thus began, for me, a wholedifferent phase of my life from
(13:22):
the moment where I felt poisedready to sort of take flight
really, with my professionallife, and the work that I was
doing and then even in ourfamily with the wedding,
obviously, it was a verydifferent direction my life took
after that.
Michael Liben (13:38):
Tell me a little bit more about being a suicide
survivor. What kind of messagedo you need to share with the
others about living after aloved one's died by suicide?
Because I think for whateverreason, other survivors feel
alone. They must know there areother survivors, but I think
there's a sense of loneliness,and I think there's also a sense
of of survivor's guilt, can youtalk to both of those?
Suzanne Anderson (14:01):
I think there's a tremendous sense of
loneliness that happens withthis particular way of losing a
loved one. And I think that'sprobably the very first thing I
would say to anyone who wasgoing through this or has gone
through this, that is toremember that it is not your
suicide. It's sometimes veryhard, and I think you have to be
(14:22):
deliberate. And I certainly didto keep choosing life, when the
one you love the most, has died,has chosen to leave and to
really claim your own your ownlife. And also, because I think
there's often a lot of shamearound suicide. I know David's
(14:44):
case that certainly was thereand he had written to me, so I
got a letter after he passedaway. And he spoke of his shame
of what he was leaving and whatwas about to happen with his
business and he just... and nothaving the strength to go
through it. I know this partlyfrom talking to people who
attempted suicide and didn'tcomplete it, that there is that
sense of very often of shame ofhow I'm living my life. And this
(15:07):
is an enormous suffering wherethe world just gets so, so
small, there's just nothing butending the pain that they're in.
And so it's super important thatas a survivor, you don't hang
out in that suicide swamp, thatis, the kind of characterized by
shame. And that takes, again,some deliberate action. And for
(15:31):
me, it, it was important to bewilling to bring people in to
bring community around me to notisolate myself, which is exactly
what David did. Anyone who diesby suicide, has, in some way,
isolated themselves. And itreally would have just taken
that one reaching out for ahand, one hand, but they can't
(15:54):
do that in that situation. Sofor me, as a survivor, it was
really important to do whatDavid could not do, which was to
reach out and to have myselfsurrounded in loving community.
Michael Liben (16:05):
Did you experience that sort of
survivor's guilt, though, that,you know, if only I had.. or
maybe that same morning, Ishould have stayed home? Little
things that will plague youforever if you don't deal with
them immediately?
Suzanne Anderson (16:19):
Well, yeah, exactly. I want to say that
that's really the key thing. Itisn't that I didn't feel some of
the shame, and and it isn't thatyou won't feel guilt, because,
of course, you will. I couldn'thelp but think about, what if I
didn't go to work that day? Orhow could I not have seen this
earlier in all the ways thatkind of walk it back to, you
(16:40):
know, thinking, where where wasthis happening? And did I not
see it? and, but very often,there is a real split between
what they show you ofthemselves, and what's going on
behind the scenes, they're verygood at that. And David was
very, very good at that. Sothere was one guy the night
before toasting everybody and inlove with life, and another guy
who's clearly already plannedhis life, and there's a
(17:03):
firewall, a very big firewallbetween those two, and you can't
see that very often as asurvivor, but you do have to
work through the guilt. And thatis not carry that as a burden
with you your whole life. It'sjust like, yeah, if I had stayed
home that morning, for example,I'm quite convinced now that it
(17:24):
would have been the next day, orthe next day, or next day, if
somebody wants to do this andthey have a plan, and they have
really kept this division intheir way of talking to you and
what they're actually what'sactually going on, you're not
going to see it.
Michael Liben (17:40):
I think that's really important to get that
out. Because I think a lot ofpeople will eventually come
around to that understanding, Ithink, because it's natural. But
you have to really get thisthing early. Because...
Suzanne Anderson (17:51):
Absolutely.
Michael Liben (17:52):
Survivor's guilt is just as horrible. And then
you'd have to realize thatsometimes things happen. It's
awful. If you don't take care ofit early, it is terrible.
Suzanne Anderson (18:01):
Right? And that was again, where I think
you need help to do that. Right?
You need you needed friends whoremind you you need a therapist
you need you need to be incommunity because left on your
own those those thoughts canfester as you were saying, into
something really, reallydifficult.
Michael Liben (18:16):
Your second book was, "You Make Your Path by
Walking". Tell me more aboutthat book.
Suzanne Anderson (18:21):
I certainly didn't start out to write the
book, I really was making mypath by walking. Could I live
with the first book, "The Way ofthe Mysterial Woman" was all
about, which is really this wayof being in the world with
whatever arises in the worldthat draws on all of my feminine
and masculine capacities? CouldI live that in this most
(18:45):
difficult situation, you know,that I could have imagined? That
was my first task, or thing, wasto do that. And there was no
guarantee. I mean, in one way, Ihad enormous faith in the
unfolding of what I might call afriendly universe. I had a very
deep and have a very deepspiritual practice. But in
(19:05):
another way, I wasn't at allcertain about the outcome
because I've really losteverything, not just David. But
because of the financialunraveling. I lost my home, my
community, I mean literallyeverything in my outer world, I
closed down my business. It waslike someone who just erased my
life within six months. I wasn'tthere. So the first thing was
(19:26):
really just to, to live it livethrough this. And then about
five years after David died, Iknew it was time for me to write
but not to write a book, towrite for myself. I wouldn't, I
took myself away on writingretreats for about a week, with
it someone's beautiful cottageup in the San Juan Islands. And
(19:49):
I just wrote for myself whathappened. The self of that
moment took my self at themoment when David died by the
hand and kind of walked with herthrough those years that I'd
been through, and I needed to dothat, for me, it was very, very
healing. And then after writingit, I showed it to the editor of
(20:10):
the first book. And she said,"Wow, this you should be
offering to others, this wouldbe really helpful to other
people who are going throughthrough loss, and I think you
should create this into a book".
And so that was how thathappened. That was about two
years ago, I guess,
Michael Liben (20:30):
Not everybody would do that. Years ago, I came
to a realization that you need abest friend. And you can be your
own best friend. And you canguide yourself, and you can do
these things and make it throughdifficult moments. Because
there's always somebody therefor you. Even if that person is
yourself.
Suzanne Anderson (20:50):
I'd say Michael, that that's the, hit on
probably one of the coreconcepts. Obviously, you've
lived through in yourexperience, and that I've lived
through in that I teach in thework that I do, which is this
primary place of compassion forthe self, for who you are, that
(21:11):
self compassion, what it is toreally be with you and with the
you that's going through thelife that you are going through.
And I think that is sadly notvery well cultivated. And a lot
of us, especially as women, Ithink we're, I will say in the
work I do, I see women very goodat tending and caring for
(21:33):
others. And not so good attending and caring for the self,
you know, and recognizing, wow,this is this is really, really
difficult right now and givingourselves the loving connection
that we need.
Michael Liben (21:51):
If you've enjoyed listening to this program,
please visit our website,heartsunitetheglobe.org, and
make a contribution. Thisprogram is a presentation of
Hearts Unite the Globe, and ispart of the HUG Podcast Network.
Hearts Unite the Globe is anonprofit organization devoted
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community members. If you wouldlike access to free resources
(22:14):
pertaining to the CHD community,please visit our website at
congenitalheartdefects.com. Forinformation about CHD, hospitals
that treat CHD survivors, summercamps for CHD families, and
much, much more. We're talkingabout your book. And we know
that you're also an entrepreneurand that you have workshops to
(22:37):
help women. Tell us about yourbusiness now and how you're
helping women.
Suzanne Anderson (22:41):
One way I can think about it is to liberate
ourselves from the limitingbeliefs that are encoded deep
down in the DNA. I mean,literally from millennia of a
more masculine paradigm ofwholeness. And this wasn't
wrong, this was how evolutionunfolded. But in my view, and on
(23:01):
the view of I would say, otherfuturists, we could say this
moment, right now in time is atime when we simply need more of
the feminine to be in balancewith the masculine, we just
can't solve the... Einstein says"You can't solve the problems of
today with the consciousnessthat created them yesterday".
(23:22):
And that's where we are we islike awakening this next level
of consciousness. And I reallysaw that early in my, my
research, and I saw the enormousshift that happened with women.
When we would go back and do thework with, I call this work,
that sort of trauma informedwomen's development because
(23:43):
we're going back to thedevelopmental traumas that
happened when we were younger oreven transgenerational, that
were passed down through timethrough your lineage through
things your, the people in yourculture went through, and the
ways in which those beliefs God,as I mentioned earlier, kind of
hardwired. And so the work thatI do, and I love to do, is to to
(24:08):
help women turn toward thoseparts of ourselves that
basically we, we had to and itwas, we call this in psychology,
"the adaptive child", the smartadaptive child, the wise child
knew that, for example, if angerwasn't acceptable to my
parenting figures, then Ilearned, okay, I gotta get love,
(24:31):
safety, and belonging that iswhat I'm here I have to do that
I'm, I need to survive. So thechild learns to put that
expressive voice in what CarlJung called "the shadow", to
just tuck that away, but itdoesn't go anywhere. it's in the
unconscious. So the work isreally to start to liberate
(24:52):
those parts of the self becausewe need them now. We need them
now for this new consciousness.
So it's very exciting work. I,this isn't what I would call
self help, I'm not reallyinterested in the trying to fix
the self that we have now it'smore the liberation of the self,
the deep self. This is where Ithink those of us that are, you
(25:12):
could say, called through lifeinto the heat of loss in some
way, have the opportunity,that's a very hot fire, I know
from personal experience. Andthe way I hold this is, this can
also be a real accelerator forchange for the very thing I'm
(25:34):
talking about here. In otherwords, it isn't just about how
can I survive this terriblething that's happened to me,
this terrible loss, the end ofone life, or one being I love,
or whatever it is, or at myhealth, maybe? How can going
through this actually liberatemore of my authentic self rather
(25:56):
than reduce me, that's the workthat I do. And I'd say it's
probably stronger and deeperwork now than it ever was,
because of what I lived throughthese last 10 years.
Michael Liben (26:11):
I'm a part of the Heart Family, the families who
have children with heartdefects. And I've said, since
the day she was born, I said,her illness, her condition, what
she has, which has necessarilybeen thrust upon us, it's
something to deal with. It showsus who we really can be, it
shows us where our strengthsare, and how strong we never
(26:33):
thought we would have to be.
It's all in there. And I thinkthat's the point that you're
getting at. And I liked thatbecause we're coming from two
different angles, maybe. Butadversity can really sharpen who
you are, is that where we'regoing,
Suzanne Anderson (26:46):
Everything that is inessential, has the
potential to fall away, right?
The false masks, the ways ofbeing, because you are brought
so abruptly if it's or let's saydramatically, strongly, into the
reality of of what is going on,and that when those masks fall
(27:06):
away, and even in my case wheremy whole future fell away,
because the path I planned withmy husband and our estate and my
company and everything else,that was gone. So what will come
next? The opportunity here is ifyou can make your path by
walking, which is the title ofthe book, you can walk
(27:28):
somewhere, profoundly new. Now Ilike to think somehow that I
could be the self I am today,without David dying, that he
could have faced his challenges.
And it would have meant a lot ofthings and our lives would have
had to change and would havechanged, it would have been
(27:48):
hard. But I will also say Iwouldn't want to give up who I
have become, that is theopportunity. It's very hard to
hear this if you're early in themoment of loss. Whereas it is
all you can be in that moment iswith everything that you've
lost, I understand that. Butwhat I think those of us that
(28:08):
aren't in that moment right nowcan offer is that down the road,
there will come and there cancome a place where you can see
the self you have become. And ina way, I want to say yeah, bow
down to her, really honor her,aknowledge her, recognize the
incredible being she has becomeand that will come as you are
(28:34):
able to be with what is momentby moment through the process.
Michael Liben (28:39):
Well, we talk a lot on this program about post
traumatic growth. And I thinkthat is also why after five
years, we changed the name ofthis program to "Bereaved But
Still Me" because I'm still inthere. I've changed but I'm
still essentially me. And thathasn't changed. I may be
expressing it differently, I mayhave found different strengths.
(29:02):
But I'm not far far removed fromwho I was, I have just, I have
have a newer and a betterpresentation of that.
Suzanne Anderson (29:10):
Or maybe we could say you've removed some of
the veils or the blocks or theskin of the onion or something.
So more, you first of all,because the first thing is you
feel the connection to yourselfmore fully. I can say that for
myself, I could say it's notlike I'm becoming a new person
(29:34):
in the sense of like, I'm stillnot Suzanne, what I can say is
there's more of Suzanne andbecause there's more of me and
because my heart through thebreaking open, there's more
loving of myself. There's also away I broke into the world. I
mean, I have more compassion andlove and I would say presence
(29:58):
with the people I work with orthe others who are suffering in
the world, it's like there'smore of me available now. For
the world.
Michael Liben (30:08):
That is a conclusion that you can come to.
It's something that you canreach for. It's not readily
visible when you begin. But youcan get there. Now, where can we
find your book, and what eventshave you got coming up during
the coming year that we canmaybe find you?
Suzanne Anderson (30:24):
Well, "You Make Your Path by Walking - A
Transformational Field GuideThrough Trauma and Loss".
That's, I think, everywhere youcan get books that's at Amazon.
And, but I always like to say ifyou have a local bookstore, go
to your local bookstore, andorder it, I am a big supporter
of local bookstores. Love that,you might do that. And on my
(30:44):
website, which is "MysterialWoman", mysterialwoman.com.
There's a link to both books,and then a link from there to
various sites where you can buyit, but you can find out more on
my webpage about my own journey.
And I actually even have somephotos there, of the incredible
magical world that I lived inwith my husband and, and so I
(31:07):
know people were asking me,"Wow, I'd love to see what that
place was like". So...
Michael Liben (31:13):
I'm not sure I want to see it. Because it's so
mystical and magical and perfectin my mind, that it might be a
downer. I'm not sure.
Suzanne Anderson (31:20):
Yeah, yeah, it might be that so don't you know?
I know that's the beauty of abook, isn't it that you can
conjure your own imagination?
Michael Liben (31:27):
But you've described it so clear, why would
I want to see a picture of itand ruin it? Yeah, of course.
But, I still, I could understandit. What have you got coming up
in the Fall of 2023. And beyond
Suzanne Anderson (31:39):
My new book just came out in June. So I'm
gonna have a new program, whichI'm super excited about coming
out in October, at the moment,I'm calling it, "The Re-sourcing
Sanctuary, and "You Make YourPath by Walking", and it'll be
for women, and that kind of sixsessions of, really creating the
(32:00):
container that allows you to gothrough times of transition and
loss. And I'm really excitedabout being able to offer that.
I've had a lot of people contactme since my second book came out
asking what programs they cando. And I'll have that coming
out. And all of these will beavailable you can find out about
on my website. So if you'recurious about what I'm up to get
(32:23):
on the mailing list, I don'tsend out things very often. But
when I do, I think there'sthey're worth reading. And then
you'll hear about all the eventscoming up.
Michael Liben (32:32):
What's a lesson that we can give people right
here, right now?
Suzanne Anderson (32:36):
Hmm, I think I'll give you three things. The
first one is this idea that ifyou can accept what is as is so
hard at the beginning, becausewe rightly have this part of the
brain that puts us in denialinitially. And I'm all for that
that's how our nervous systemcan get regulated. But as soon
(32:57):
as possible, being able to gothrough that denial to accept
what is because accepting whatis prepares the ground for what
might become later. And so thisis a sense here of like,
recognizing it isn't about, Ijust got to survive this thing
(33:17):
and get through this and thenget back to my life the way it
was before, and I'll be okay.
It's like no, this is you do notget this one day back, this one
moment back. And can you just bewith what is? And what I found
my own experience is, if youcan, you have more capacity then
for what could potentially openup for you. And then number two
(33:40):
is really, you only need to beable to see the one next stone
ahead of you on the path. Like,that's you make your path by
walking. sometimes when you've,you're going through times, like
I certainly did. And I've losteverything behind me. And I have
no idea if I'll even have a homeor anywhere to live or any
resources out ahead, it's justterrifying. And you can get way
(34:03):
too far ahead of yourself. Butif you can just stay close in
like, you take the one next stepclose in. And that's, that's all
you have to do right now is thatone thing, but there is
movement, you make your path bywalking. I think when you're
going through loss, you need toremember life is a movement and
(34:25):
to keep yourself in thatmovement. And then the third
thing and this is very specificto me, I think relative to
David, but as long as you holdback forgiveness, as long as I
did that, you know you hold backand your own freedom, but for
those that are going throughsuicide, I think that's very
(34:46):
important that could beforgiving yourself. Or forgiving
the other.
Michael Liben (34:51):
Susanne Anderson, the book is "You Make Your Path
by Walking". Thank you so muchfor joining us on "Bereaved But
Still Me. It's going to take mea long time. to process
everything I've heard here, Ithink your insights are deep and
interesting and truthful. I'dlike to say it's been a
pleasure; I just wish thecircumstances had been so much
different for us meeting. Butit's in some sense, it's been a
(35:14):
joy talking with you, and Ithank you so much for joining us
on "Bereaved But Still Me".
Suzanne Anderson (35:17):
Thank you.
Thank you, Michael. It's been avery rich conversation together
with you.
Michael Liben (35:22):
And that concludes this episode of
"Bereaved But Still Me". I wantto thank Suzanne Anderson for
sharing her books, her projects,and her experiences with us.
Please join us again at thebeginning of the month for a
brand new podcast. I'll talkwith you soon but, until then,
please remember moving forwardis not moving away.
Anna Jaworski (35:39):
Thank you for joining us, we help you have
felt supported in your griefjourney. "Bereaved But Still Me"
is a monthly podcast, and a newepisode is released on the first
Thursday of each month. You canhear our podcast anywhere you
normally listen to podcasts atany time. Join us again next
month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".
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