April 29, 2025 • 28 mins
Welcome to the Beyond Fulfillment Podcast, today we sit down with successful entrepreneur Todd Schuchart, founder of Razor Ridge Leads. He shares game-changing insights for entrepreneurs, small business owners, and startup founders. If you’re seeking actionable strategies for business growth, innovative sales tactics, and leveraging technology like AI in your business—this episode is packed with value!
Timestamps:
2:45 – Finding Innovation in Life Insurance Lead Generation
5:22 – The Story Behind Razor Ridge Leads’ Brand & Philosophy
6:08 – Agent-First Business Approach: Lessons from the C-Suite
9:30 – Overcoming Industry Resistance to Conversational Sales & AI Driven CRM Tools
13:02 – Simplifying the Sales Process (And Why That’s Hard!)
15:28 – The Counterintuitive Secrets to Entrepreneurial Success
16:59 – Biggest Misconceptions About Success in Business
19:23 – How AI Is Changing Lead Generation & Nurturing
21:07 – Balancing Technology with Human Connection in Sales
22:38 – Real Success Story: Transforming Agents into Top Performers
25:22 – How to Learn More & Connect with Razor Ridge Leads
If you want to learn how top entrepreneurs approach innovation, develop effective sales systems, and use AI to scale their businesses, this is a must-watch for your entrepreneurial journey!
Connect with Todd: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddcharles/
Learn more about Razor Ridge Leads: http://razorridge.com/
👉 Enjoyed the episode? Hit that SUBSCRIBE button for more interviews with industry leaders sharing proven business strategies.
#Entrepreneurship #SmallBusiness #SalesTraining #LeadGeneration #AI #BusinessGrowth #StartupSuccess #BeyondFulfillment
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Today we sit down with ToddShuhart to discuss his unconventional
journey into the lifeinsurance lead generation space.
Todd shares how he stumbledinto the industry by accident, leveraging
his deep experience in salesand the lessons from his corporate
background.
We delve into Todd's agentfirst philosophy, detailing how his
(00:22):
early days as a producer andhis disenchantment with corporate
leadership shaped his missionto empower agents.
Todd reveals the importance oflifting agents up, filling the gap
left by companies that pushinnovation down without giving salespeople
the tools they need to succeed.
We also discussed the hurdlesthat Todd faced when introducing
(00:44):
new sales technology such asAI driven CRMs to a traditionally
minded industry like life insurance.
And we highlight theimportance of honest, transparent
communication, especially whenintegrating AI into the client interactions.
If you found value from thiscontent, please like and subscribe.
(01:05):
All right, Todd Shohart,welcome to Beyond Fulfillment.
Thanks, Dave.
Appreciate you, man.
Glad to be here.
Yeah, absolutely.
Glad you could take the time.
Okay, so let's, let's getright into it.
So Todd, how did a self pro,self proclaimed goofball find his
niche and become an expert inthe seemingly serious world of, of
(01:29):
life insurance leads body?
That's a really good question.
On accident is really the answer.
The whole digital experiencefor me has been on accident all the
way back to 07.
When I got in the space, itwas just, you know, one of those
things, Divine intervention,maybe universal favor.
I'm not exactly sure, but I'mglad I'm here.
(01:53):
You know, I had a, a questionfrom an old partner.
He called me one day and said,we got to look at this life insurance
leads gen thing, thing.
And I was doing some otherstuff at the time.
I'm like, I don't know.
And he just, he, you know, hewas very persistent and we do what
we do really good work together.
So I said, all right, let'stake a peek.
And that's what we did.
We looked into it.
We got tied into.
(02:14):
What we didn't know at thetime was a poor play on infinite
banking, utilizing IULs toshow people how to get out of debt
tied to a software that theyhad to buy for $4,000.
The challenge was gettingsomeone to spend $4,000 to get out
of debt.
It kind of feels like, youknow, it just, it didn't line up
(02:35):
with the story.
And in that process learnedabout getting licensed and went out
and did that.
And in doing so, I learnedthis business from a perspective
that most marketers aren'twilling to do and that's to dive
into the niche and to becomepart of it.
So I produce, I writepolicies, I train, and the whole,
(03:00):
the whole thing.
And I do all of that, Dave,because what I learned in my corporate
career when I got to the Csuite is they were so disconnected
from the street that they werepushing things out that made the
life of the sales agentincredibly difficult.
So I learned at that pointthat if you don't have a toe in the,
in the streets to though,you're kind of going to be obsolete
(03:22):
sooner than later.
So for me, it allowed me toone get street credit with my, with
my lead buyers because I canteach you how to sell these leads.
And it made our lead genefforts actually work.
Freight shippers.
(03:43):
Are you tired of dealing withunreliable freight brokers?
Tired of delays, misseddelivery appointments and no one
to talk to?
Tired of unpleasant surprises,reclass re ways and the invoice always
being higher than the quote?
Well, you can enjoy a betterfreight experience with SPI Logistics.
I joined SPI as a freightagent to deliver that better freight
(04:05):
experience to our three PL customers.
SPI has 30,000 vetted andapproved carriers, all modes of transportation,
so we can tailor the equipmentto the shipment and the fully trained
and experienced operationsteam who is always available to help.
And you'll get the samequality customer service that you've
come to expect when.
You deal with me.
(04:26):
If you've got freight to move,go to freight by dave dot com.
That's freight by dave dot com.
You know, the messaging thatwe use and the way that we approach
this all came from things Iwas hearing when I was working and
selling life insurance.
Make sense?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so what was the pivotalmoment that made you realize that
(04:49):
the, the life insuranceindustry was ripe for innovation
within the lead generation space?
Yeah, good question.
So again, my previous career,I was in newspaper and I got to be
part of the transition fromnewspaper into the digital space.
And when you look at industry,there's not a lot left in the world
(05:11):
that hasn't either innovatedout of old school processes or completely
gone out of business becausesomebody else had innovated them
out of business.
Google and the Yellow Pages,Netflix to Blockbuster.
Right.
We see this over and overagain as digital takes hold and does
those things.
And insurance was kind of oneof those last major giants that hadn't
(05:36):
evolved much past, you know,what they've been doing for hundreds
of years.
And then Covid hit and youknow, Monday they did one thing.
Tuesday, the game changed.
And for me, that was exciting.
That's where I thought, ohman, there's nothing but opportunity
in the space.
So let's do this.
We really can do some things here.
(05:56):
And also for a guy thatdoesn't want to go driving around
everybody's home, I reallylike the idea of this type of interaction.
Like I'm, I'm in my, myshorts, I don't have any shoes on.
I can see 15 people a day.
If somebody no shows me, I canjust go use the bathroom or my kitchen
or.
You know what I mean?
It was just, it was really appealing.
All the pieces kind of fellinto place where I think the industry
(06:19):
is ripe for innovation andthat's kind of what I thrive on.
Okay, so the name Razor Ridgeleads what's the story and the philosophy
behind that sharp imagery?
So you think about that kindof cutting edge, climbing the mountain,
(06:40):
finding your space and yourfooting and all that kind of fun
stuff is really the thoughtprocess behind all of that.
Plus, I think it's a littlebit more fun.
You can do more of anoutdoorsy nomad lifestyle kind of
approach to really what thisbusiness is becoming.
(07:01):
You know, the days of suitsand ties and B and I meetings and
local networking events andRotary clubs.
Does it still work?
Yeah, to an extent, but it'snot how you have to do this business
anymore.
You could be a, you could besitting on a beach, you could be
sitting on a boat, you couldbe climbing a mountain.
I've got plenty of stories ofagents closing deals in some of the,
(07:24):
some of the weirdest places.
And it's, it's really kind ofneat how the evolution of all the
tools and, and the digitizingof the industry has, has allowed
us to do that.
So we really wanted to havesomething that we felt met, you know,
just the, the cutting edge andfreedom of, of what, you know, the
(07:44):
outdoors brings and havingthat type of lifestyle.
Okay, so you mentioned earlieryour agent first approach.
I mean, how did those earlyexperiences that you had being a
producer shape this approachthat you champion today?
(08:06):
Yeah, in my corporate life, Iworked so hard to get to the C suite.
And when I got there, I was sodisenchanted with just the lack of
understanding of what went onfor the sales rep.
And I'm a sales guy first.
I read my first sales book inthe sixth grade.
I mean, I knew I was going tobe a sales guy from as soon as I
(08:29):
found out I couldn't be paunchon chips.
So I knew that I had nochoice, right, that I was going to
be doing this.
And, you know, all that kindof comes Together and you look at
what's what what's being donein any given industry, not just life
insurance, but any givenindustry, what's being done to the
(08:51):
salespeople and wrapped inthis thing of for.
And the reality is a lot oftimes what's being done to them is
not for them.
It doesn't help them, itdoesn't give them the tools and the
pieces that they need to move forward.
So being able to sell, I was atop producer when I was just selling
(09:13):
insurance, when we werevetting and testing our leads.
I sell every lead type beforewe roll it out.
It gives me the ability tounderstand what the agent is dealing
with and then the ability tobuild tools, solutions and processes
around those gaps.
So the space in every, everyspace does this.
(09:35):
You get to that C suite, youget disenchanted and you push innovation,
you push innovation down andit feels like somebody's pushing
it down, you know, just on thetop of your head, you can't quite
get above the water.
And our whole approach islifting the agents up so that they
can get some breathing room.
Because from the agent's chairforward is where the innovation is
(10:01):
missing.
So as, as IMOs and carriersare pushing innovation down, we see
a huge gap in lifting agentsup to meet what the carriers and
IMOs are doing so that they,they have tools in order to keep
up with the things that arethat are coming.
I hope that answered your question.
But it's a passion, definitely.
(10:22):
It's a passion driven thingand it fee.
I feel like as a lifelongsales champion, we're abused.
You know, everybody blamessales for everything.
Very, very, very, very rarelydo they bl success of the organization.
You know, it's usually someguy screaming it who is in a tower
(10:45):
somewhere that hasn't sold athing in, in God knows how long.
And the reality is it's not,it's the salespeople that bring it.
So as much as grief as we givethem, we need to, to give them the
tools and think of them firstbecause that's what drives the, the
health of the organizations.
Yeah, no, agreed.
And you know, I'm, I'm alifelong sales guy myself, so nothing
(11:07):
happens till a sale is made.
So I certainly, I certainlysupport that.
Okay, so what, what were someof the initial hurdles you faced
when, you know, you introducedthis conversational sales training
and the AI driven CRM tools tosuch a traditionally minded industry?
(11:28):
Yeah, old school or old guarddoesn't like it at all.
You know, as much assalespeople have to Change and adjust.
They also resist it, probablythe most.
So I have that in mind everytime that I'm rolling pieces out.
And the easiest way to do thatis to do first and to teach second,
(11:51):
because you can't.
You can't debate success, right?
So how do we challenge the oldguard is we.
We.
We smoke them, right?
We come out and we do thingsthey didn't think were possible.
And then we circle back and weshow them how we did it.
So the conversational sales training.
(12:12):
Listen, at the end of the day,everybody can sell.
Everybody has sold in their life.
If you were a kid and youconvinced your parents at one point
to let you stay out pastcurfew for a special event, you sold
them.
If they said no, and you hadto come back and say, hey, listen,
I'll clean my room, I'll dothe dishes, and I'll mow the lawn
(12:34):
if you let me stay out twomore hours.
You value stacked.
You sidestep rebuttal.
Then you're closed.
And they say, yeah, go ahead.
And now you've done the thingthat everybody else is terrified
of.
You closed the deal.
What people do in sales isthey go, I'm in sales now, so I must
be in a sales mode.
And they forget that it's justtwo people talking together, right?
(12:56):
It's the lead and the agent,and the.
And the lead should be talking.
The agent should be listeningto see if there's an opportunity
there to service the need.
If they listen with intent tounderstand and they know their product,
then they're going to havethemselves a client.
If they come in and they tryto do all the manipulation tactics
(13:18):
and the old school sales stufffrom the 80s that I miss and love
and was really good at, butdoesn't work today.
You know, it's aboutconnecting with people and just having
those conversations.
And I think the easiest way todo that is to teach people how to
open a sales call and how tojust shut up and listen to understand
(13:41):
not asking a question, becauseit's in a script that somebody gave
me that I don't get right?
And there's so much of thatgoing on that agents don't get the
opportunity, the freedom orthe Runway to find their own voice.
So a lot of what we're doing is.
This is the structure ofconversational selling.
(14:04):
These are kind of the piecesthat we're doing.
I teach heavily on opening thecall because that's where the close
is made.
If you don't open, you'renever going to close.
You can always Tell if youopen wrong, you hear things like
got to think about it, talk tomy wife partner about it or pray
about it.
You screwed something up inyour intro.
So if we can teach the intro,the rest of it plays off of that.
And then you give people thefreedom to just talk to somebody
(14:28):
and make a connection.
Stop trying to be sales andjust be a person communicating with
another person.
Now you have a mission, butthat shouldn't take over that connection
piece.
And I think that's where weget it wrong.
Okay, and so following up onthat, were there any frustrations
(14:51):
that, that emerged when youfirst, you know, implemented this,
this way of.
I guess we can call itsimplifying the sales process.
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Simplifying.
It just broke people.
It breaks people still to this day.
You know, it's, it's got to bethis convoluted, hard thing.
I've got to master these 400 rebuttals.
(15:13):
I've got to, I got to learnall these manipulation tactics and
I've got to do neurolinguistic programming.
And none of that matters.
Now.
Are there sales strategiesthat you can use like the takeaway
and regaining control bytaking, by asking the questions?
Yes.
Is that anything you gottaworry about right away?
(15:34):
Not at all.
This goes back to kind of likewe see in digital.
Digital's been an interesting thing.
It's taught us a lot about people.
So if you ever blog, you know,the thing about blogging is your
first blog posts are probably horrific.
You know, you've got to get inand find your voice.
And it's the same thing on asales call.
You have to be doing it.
(15:54):
You have to take practice serious.
Listen, sales is, that is the,is the hardest working most.
You'll make the most money inany other career.
It's also the easiest, lowestpaying job.
The deciding factor is the practitioner.
So if you practice, likereally, truly practice your craft,
(16:14):
you can blow the doors offthis thing and make, I mean there's
high school dropouts making amillion dollars a year.
They practice.
That's the difference.
You know, it's, it's likeanything else that you want to be
excellent at.
You got to put the time in.
And that's where I see someresistance coming from.
And, and you know, people wantit to be the prospecting video that
(16:36):
they saw where it's just me onvacation having drinks.
You know, there, there's somethings you have to do to earn those
kinds of trips.
So I, I think that, yeah,that's probably it.
And then Watching people fighttheir own demons.
And then the other is alwayslooking for the new shiny object.
What's the silver bulletthat's going to save me from having
(16:56):
to do the work?
There isn't one.
There never will be.
It's all a waste of time,energy, and effort.
So put all that to the side,get in front of a mirror and practice
your open.
Hey, Dave, how you doing?
What got you on the call withme today?
What can I help you with?
What are we looking at?
What'd you see in the ad thatgrabbed your attention?
And then shut the hell up andlet them talk.
(17:18):
And you're going to learneverything you need to know to help
that person protect their family.
It's simple, really.
Okay.
And so what's onecounterintuitive lesson that you've
learned on yourentrepreneurial journey that might
surprise our listeners?
(17:40):
Being wrong is a bad thing.
Being wrong is your mission.
You gotta fail and you gottafail fast.
So I, we, we've been taughtsince we were kids the wrong answer
is a bad answer.
You know, you get a bad mark,you get a bad report card, you get
grounded.
All these bad things happenwhen you're wrong.
(18:03):
So it puts us in a state offear of being wrong, which means
we never fully commit.
And the reality is, everythingyou need to be the best is only sitting
in your failure.
So the second you realizefailing is the quickest path to success
is the time that you'reactually going to start to blow the
(18:24):
doors off.
Whatever it is you're lookingto do.
You got to accept it and yougot to embrace it and look at it
as a gift.
Love that.
Okay.
And you know, Todd, people canlook at, you know, your success and,
and what you've built and youknow, I'm sure there's some maybe
(18:45):
misunderstandings, but what doyou think is the, the biggest misconception
about what it takes to, to getto the top level?
That's a good one, brother.
You know, I, I think, I thinkpeople feel like it's easy.
(19:06):
You know, this guy did it andman, they make it sound so easy.
And the reality is, until youfind your voice and you find your
footing and you understandexactly what it is that you're doing
through hours of practice and,and, and self reflection, it's not
going to be easy.
It's going to be really hardand really challenging and make you
(19:29):
feel like you want to cry andquit and clean your house instead
of do everything else right.
Yeah, I, I, that's it.
Really.
It's just hard.
You Got to do the work.
If you don't do the work, youknow, you're not going to be Michael
Jordan.
How many people you think wantto be Michael Jordan?
(19:50):
How many kids grew up with basketball?
How many kids played reallygreat all through, you know, their
childhood and high school andeven went on to play at college and
never made it to the pros?
Right.
Everybody puts in the work.
They all want to be there.
Not everybody, not everybodyis willing, I'm saying not everybody
is willing to get to the pointand do the things you have to do
(20:13):
to be the top of your game.
You know, there's a reasonthere's one or two really good sales
guys on every team andeverybody else is kind of middle
of the road.
It's because those people haveput in the time.
You know, when I'm driving mycar, I'm listening to Get Better,
I do this still.
I'm still reading sales books,I'm still on blogs, I'm still watching
and listening to podcastsbecause I'm still learning or being
(20:36):
reminded of things.
You know, we aren't always allgonna be the best all the time.
So it's really helpful toconstantly be in that mode of openness
and lear.
So, you know, you got to putin the time.
If you want to make the money,you got to put in the time.
You don't own anything in thisworld until you pay for it.
And for us, that currency isinvesting in yourself and your time
(20:59):
and giving yourself permissionto fail and to move on and keep,
keep pushing forward.
Does that answer that question?
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
And Todd, how is the evolutionof technology and particularly AI
change the landscape of lead generation?
You know, particularly forlife insurance?
(21:20):
Yeah.
So Dave, I don't, I don'tthink for the lead gen side, it's,
it's at the point where it'sreally doing a whole lot there.
But on the lead nurturingside, getting the agents into the
sales conversation, havingconsistency in lead follow up and
nurturing is where the win is,I feel at this point.
So we've got agents, we have,we run a conversational AI inside
(21:43):
our CRM.
It is not the leadcommunication, it is a piece of the
communication.
So we lean into pre cannedlead nurturing, agent interaction
and AI conversational nurturing.
And then you have to definewhat those roles are.
Right.
(22:03):
Like each, each AI tool oragent that you implement has to have
a specialty, just like everyperson does in your company.
Your top closer is not yourreceptionist and your receptionist
isn't doing things that yourCFO is doing.
Right.
Each one of those is a job.
So each one of those pieces oftechnology needs to do its job and
(22:25):
understand how that flows together.
So I think we're going to seea lot more come of AI in the next
six to 18 months.
That's really going to changethe sales landscape.
We're working on some reallygreat tools for not just the sales
piece and the lead nurturing,but the other side of the equation
that really gets neglectedquite often, and that's the sales
(22:46):
training and nurturing of theagent skills.
Okay, and how would youbalance the need for cutting edge
technology, you know, such asAI, with the human element that's
so critical in building trustwith your clients?
Well, the first is you letthem know it's AI, right?
(23:08):
That you don't.
We don't trick people.
Right.
So.
Hey, Dave, I'm Todd's AI assistant.
If you'd like to speak to Toddinstead of me, I can make sure that
I either transfer you over nowor I can book an appointment for
you to speak to him.
But if you're cool with this,I have a couple questions for you
so that Todd can put someproposals together.
It's that type of thing, right?
It's, it's full transparency.
(23:29):
It's not trying to pull a fastone on somebody and trick them into
thinking they're talking to a person.
We saw that when chatbotsfirst came out a handful of years
ago.
First of all, they werehorrific, right?
Because it wasn'tconversational, it wasn't AI driven.
It was if this, then that typestuff and you'd ask a question and
it wasn't trained for it andyou get an answer back and you go,
(23:51):
okay, this isn't clearly isnot a person.
And then you're done.
Because the user experience,you lost the trust.
So I think it's really easy tokeep the trust if you're just straight
up, you're talking to AI right now.
Have you talked to AI before, Dave?
No.
Well, cool.
Let's have some fun with this.
And by the way, if any pointyou want to speak to a human, just
(24:11):
say so, and I'll get you overto one.
So what do you say?
Want to go ahead and ask some questions?
You know, that type of thing?
That's really it.
Okay.
And what's a story from yourjourney that really highlights the
impact Razor Ridge Leads hashad on an individual agent?
(24:32):
Success.
It's one of my favoritethings, is to get the feedback from
agents.
We run a done for you programinside of Razor Ridge, where we pretty
much set up a little marketingagency for you, generating exclusive
leads just for you.
(24:52):
I can't tell you now, we getpeople like anything that will come
in and completely bomb out,but the ones that work the program
and understand that they'vegot to evolve as a salesperson and
as a life agent.
The ones that do, we've takenpeople that have struggled and turned
them into top performers.
You know, when you get thatemail that somebody made $45,000
(25:13):
last month on a $2,000 all ininvestment, and they just.
It changes their life.
You get to be part of a verysmall piece of it, but you get to
be part of that transition.
I realized years and years agothat what I do as a sales manager
is talked about at the dinnertable of my salespeople with their
(25:37):
families.
And once I think you realizethat, you start to take a different
ownership and.
And approach to how you workwith somebody, you know, and.
And you realize that you're aripple effect.
You know, it's.
It's.
They make more money.
They get to change their life.
Their family gets to changetheir life.
(25:59):
It's.
It's a really.
It's a really cool thing thatwhen I first started this, truthfully,
Dave, I.
I was too young and naive toeven think about.
I was all about driving the.
Driving the.
Moving the needle, you know,pushing the.
Pushing the P.
L.
And.
And all that kind of fun.
Stu day, somebody told me astory about their dinner conversation
(26:20):
involving me, and I was like,oh, wow, this is really.
Like.
This is because I talk aboutthem at dinner.
Why didn't I think they weretalking about me and the things that
we were doing?
So I love to hear all of it.
I love to hear the successes.
I love to see somebody finallyfind their footing and just really
own that thing that they camehere for.
(26:42):
You know, we all have thisdream of.
Of what we're doing or the.
Or direction that we want totake our lives because we're miserable
where we currently are.
We're not making enough moneyor we just want to do better by our
families.
To be a part of.
Of seeing that happen is.
It's everything that's, youknow, money's great, but it only
goes so far.
(27:02):
Right?
So, yeah, lots of thoselittle, little wins.
Okay.
All right.
And, Todd, if people want toget in touch with you, learn more
about Razor Ridge or reachout, what's the best way people can.
Can find you online?
Yeah.
So raise a ridge.com always.
You can find our links to ourYouTube channel.
(27:24):
Our LinkedIn and our Facebook page.
Our Facebook page is closed.
We do trainings in there allthe time.
There's great resources.
You get your freeconversational sales training on
our website.
I don't charge for it.
It is hands down better thanthe 90% of the paid programs on the
market.
Our YouTube channel, we doweekly lives.
We do exclusive trainings inthere as well.
(27:46):
We build on the four core andon how to use Pipeline to manage
your business.
So follow us and hang out with us.
We'd love to see you.
I go live every Thursday.
All that can be found on thewebsite and in our Facebook group.
I do live trainings.
Last couple weeks have beenlive role playing.
We're moving into a new seriesstarting next week after Easter.
(28:07):
So we've got a lot of.
A lot of really cool thingskind of hanging in and around there.
So come hang out with us.
We'd love to see you.
All right, we'll link all thatin the show notes for everyone.
All right.
Well, Todd, thank you so muchfor taking the time to be here and
sharing all this valuablewisdom from your journey with our
audience.
We greatly appreciate it.
Dave, thanks for having me.
This was great.
Appreciate you.
All right.
(28:27):
And that's all the time wehave for now.
We will see you next time.
Today we sit down with ToddShuhart to discuss his unconventional
journey into the lifeinsurance lead generation space.
Todd shares how he stumbledinto the industry by accident, leveraging
his deep experience in salesand the lessons from his corporate
background.
We delve into Todd's agentfirst philosophy, detailing how his
(00:22):
early days as a producer andhis disenchantment with corporate
leadership shaped his missionto empower agents.
Todd reveals the importance oflifting agents up, filling the gap
left by companies that pushinnovation down without giving salespeople
the tools they need to succeed.
We also discussed the hurdlesthat Todd faced when introducing
(00:44):
new sales technology such asAI driven CRMs to a traditionally
minded industry like life insurance.
And we highlight theimportance of honest, transparent
communication, especially whenintegrating AI into the client interactions.
If you found value from thiscontent, please like and subscribe.
(01:05):
All right, Todd Shohart,welcome to Beyond Fulfillment.
Thanks, Dave.
Appreciate you, man.
Glad to be here.
Yeah, absolutely.
Glad you could take the time.
Okay, so let's, let's getright into it.
So Todd, how did a self pro,self proclaimed goofball find his
niche and become an expert inthe seemingly serious world of, of
(01:29):
life insurance leads body?
That's a really good question.
On accident is really the answer.
The whole digital experiencefor me has been on accident all the
way back to 07.
When I got in the space, itwas just, you know, one of those
things, Divine intervention,maybe universal favor.
I'm not exactly sure, but I'mglad I'm here.
(01:53):
You know, I had a, a questionfrom an old partner.
He called me one day and said,we got to look at this life insurance
leads gen thing, thing.
And I was doing some otherstuff at the time.
I'm like, I don't know.
And he just, he, you know, hewas very persistent and we do what
we do really good work together.
So I said, all right, let'stake a peek.
And that's what we did.
We looked into it.
We got tied into.
(02:14):
What we didn't know at thetime was a poor play on infinite
banking, utilizing IULs toshow people how to get out of debt
tied to a software that theyhad to buy for $4,000.
The challenge was gettingsomeone to spend $4,000 to get out
of debt.
It kind of feels like, youknow, it just, it didn't line up
(02:35):
with the story.
And in that process learnedabout getting licensed and went out
and did that.
And in doing so, I learnedthis business from a perspective
that most marketers aren'twilling to do and that's to dive
into the niche and to becomepart of it.
So I produce, I writepolicies, I train, and the whole,
(03:00):
the whole thing.
And I do all of that, Dave,because what I learned in my corporate
career when I got to the Csuite is they were so disconnected
from the street that they werepushing things out that made the
life of the sales agentincredibly difficult.
So I learned at that pointthat if you don't have a toe in the,
in the streets to though,you're kind of going to be obsolete
(03:22):
sooner than later.
So for me, it allowed me toone get street credit with my, with
my lead buyers because I canteach you how to sell these leads.
And it made our lead genefforts actually work.
Freight shippers.
(03:43):
Are you tired of dealing withunreliable freight brokers?
Tired of delays, misseddelivery appointments and no one
to talk to?
Tired of unpleasant surprises,reclass re ways and the invoice always
being higher than the quote?
Well, you can enjoy a betterfreight experience with SPI Logistics.
I joined SPI as a freightagent to deliver that better freight
(04:05):
experience to our three PL customers.
SPI has 30,000 vetted andapproved carriers, all modes of transportation,
so we can tailor the equipmentto the shipment and the fully trained
and experienced operationsteam who is always available to help.
And you'll get the samequality customer service that you've
come to expect when.
You deal with me.
(04:26):
If you've got freight to move,go to freight by dave dot com.
That's freight by dave dot com.
You know, the messaging thatwe use and the way that we approach
this all came from things Iwas hearing when I was working and
selling life insurance.
Make sense?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so what was the pivotalmoment that made you realize that
(04:49):
the, the life insuranceindustry was ripe for innovation
within the lead generation space?
Yeah, good question.
So again, my previous career,I was in newspaper and I got to be
part of the transition fromnewspaper into the digital space.
And when you look at industry,there's not a lot left in the world
(05:11):
that hasn't either innovatedout of old school processes or completely
gone out of business becausesomebody else had innovated them
out of business.
Google and the Yellow Pages,Netflix to Blockbuster.
Right.
We see this over and overagain as digital takes hold and does
those things.
And insurance was kind of oneof those last major giants that hadn't
(05:36):
evolved much past, you know,what they've been doing for hundreds
of years.
And then Covid hit and youknow, Monday they did one thing.
Tuesday, the game changed.
And for me, that was exciting.
That's where I thought, ohman, there's nothing but opportunity
in the space.
So let's do this.
We really can do some things here.
(05:56):
And also for a guy thatdoesn't want to go driving around
everybody's home, I reallylike the idea of this type of interaction.
Like I'm, I'm in my, myshorts, I don't have any shoes on.
I can see 15 people a day.
If somebody no shows me, I canjust go use the bathroom or my kitchen
or.
You know what I mean?
It was just, it was really appealing.
All the pieces kind of fellinto place where I think the industry
(06:19):
is ripe for innovation andthat's kind of what I thrive on.
Okay, so the name Razor Ridgeleads what's the story and the philosophy
behind that sharp imagery?
So you think about that kindof cutting edge, climbing the mountain,
(06:40):
finding your space and yourfooting and all that kind of fun
stuff is really the thoughtprocess behind all of that.
Plus, I think it's a littlebit more fun.
You can do more of anoutdoorsy nomad lifestyle kind of
approach to really what thisbusiness is becoming.
(07:01):
You know, the days of suitsand ties and B and I meetings and
local networking events andRotary clubs.
Does it still work?
Yeah, to an extent, but it'snot how you have to do this business
anymore.
You could be a, you could besitting on a beach, you could be
sitting on a boat, you couldbe climbing a mountain.
I've got plenty of stories ofagents closing deals in some of the,
(07:24):
some of the weirdest places.
And it's, it's really kind ofneat how the evolution of all the
tools and, and the digitizingof the industry has, has allowed
us to do that.
So we really wanted to havesomething that we felt met, you know,
just the, the cutting edge andfreedom of, of what, you know, the
(07:44):
outdoors brings and havingthat type of lifestyle.
Okay, so you mentioned earlieryour agent first approach.
I mean, how did those earlyexperiences that you had being a
producer shape this approachthat you champion today?
(08:06):
Yeah, in my corporate life, Iworked so hard to get to the C suite.
And when I got there, I was sodisenchanted with just the lack of
understanding of what went onfor the sales rep.
And I'm a sales guy first.
I read my first sales book inthe sixth grade.
I mean, I knew I was going tobe a sales guy from as soon as I
(08:29):
found out I couldn't be paunchon chips.
So I knew that I had nochoice, right, that I was going to
be doing this.
And, you know, all that kindof comes Together and you look at
what's what what's being donein any given industry, not just life
insurance, but any givenindustry, what's being done to the
(08:51):
salespeople and wrapped inthis thing of for.
And the reality is a lot oftimes what's being done to them is
not for them.
It doesn't help them, itdoesn't give them the tools and the
pieces that they need to move forward.
So being able to sell, I was atop producer when I was just selling
(09:13):
insurance, when we werevetting and testing our leads.
I sell every lead type beforewe roll it out.
It gives me the ability tounderstand what the agent is dealing
with and then the ability tobuild tools, solutions and processes
around those gaps.
So the space in every, everyspace does this.
(09:35):
You get to that C suite, youget disenchanted and you push innovation,
you push innovation down andit feels like somebody's pushing
it down, you know, just on thetop of your head, you can't quite
get above the water.
And our whole approach islifting the agents up so that they
can get some breathing room.
Because from the agent's chairforward is where the innovation is
(10:01):
missing.
So as, as IMOs and carriersare pushing innovation down, we see
a huge gap in lifting agentsup to meet what the carriers and
IMOs are doing so that they,they have tools in order to keep
up with the things that arethat are coming.
I hope that answered your question.
But it's a passion, definitely.
(10:22):
It's a passion driven thingand it fee.
I feel like as a lifelongsales champion, we're abused.
You know, everybody blamessales for everything.
Very, very, very, very rarelydo they bl success of the organization.
You know, it's usually someguy screaming it who is in a tower
(10:45):
somewhere that hasn't sold athing in, in God knows how long.
And the reality is it's not,it's the salespeople that bring it.
So as much as grief as we givethem, we need to, to give them the
tools and think of them firstbecause that's what drives the, the
health of the organizations.
Yeah, no, agreed.
And you know, I'm, I'm alifelong sales guy myself, so nothing
(11:07):
happens till a sale is made.
So I certainly, I certainlysupport that.
Okay, so what, what were someof the initial hurdles you faced
when, you know, you introducedthis conversational sales training
and the AI driven CRM tools tosuch a traditionally minded industry?
(11:28):
Yeah, old school or old guarddoesn't like it at all.
You know, as much assalespeople have to Change and adjust.
They also resist it, probablythe most.
So I have that in mind everytime that I'm rolling pieces out.
And the easiest way to do thatis to do first and to teach second,
(11:51):
because you can't.
You can't debate success, right?
So how do we challenge the oldguard is we.
We.
We smoke them, right?
We come out and we do thingsthey didn't think were possible.
And then we circle back and weshow them how we did it.
So the conversational sales training.
(12:12):
Listen, at the end of the day,everybody can sell.
Everybody has sold in their life.
If you were a kid and youconvinced your parents at one point
to let you stay out pastcurfew for a special event, you sold
them.
If they said no, and you hadto come back and say, hey, listen,
I'll clean my room, I'll dothe dishes, and I'll mow the lawn
(12:34):
if you let me stay out twomore hours.
You value stacked.
You sidestep rebuttal.
Then you're closed.
And they say, yeah, go ahead.
And now you've done the thingthat everybody else is terrified
of.
You closed the deal.
What people do in sales isthey go, I'm in sales now, so I must
be in a sales mode.
And they forget that it's justtwo people talking together, right?
(12:56):
It's the lead and the agent,and the.
And the lead should be talking.
The agent should be listeningto see if there's an opportunity
there to service the need.
If they listen with intent tounderstand and they know their product,
then they're going to havethemselves a client.
If they come in and they tryto do all the manipulation tactics
(13:18):
and the old school sales stufffrom the 80s that I miss and love
and was really good at, butdoesn't work today.
You know, it's aboutconnecting with people and just having
those conversations.
And I think the easiest way todo that is to teach people how to
open a sales call and how tojust shut up and listen to understand
(13:41):
not asking a question, becauseit's in a script that somebody gave
me that I don't get right?
And there's so much of thatgoing on that agents don't get the
opportunity, the freedom orthe Runway to find their own voice.
So a lot of what we're doing is.
This is the structure ofconversational selling.
(14:04):
These are kind of the piecesthat we're doing.
I teach heavily on opening thecall because that's where the close
is made.
If you don't open, you'renever going to close.
You can always Tell if youopen wrong, you hear things like
got to think about it, talk tomy wife partner about it or pray
about it.
You screwed something up inyour intro.
So if we can teach the intro,the rest of it plays off of that.
And then you give people thefreedom to just talk to somebody
(14:28):
and make a connection.
Stop trying to be sales andjust be a person communicating with
another person.
Now you have a mission, butthat shouldn't take over that connection
piece.
And I think that's where weget it wrong.
Okay, and so following up onthat, were there any frustrations
(14:51):
that, that emerged when youfirst, you know, implemented this,
this way of.
I guess we can call itsimplifying the sales process.
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Simplifying.
It just broke people.
It breaks people still to this day.
You know, it's, it's got to bethis convoluted, hard thing.
I've got to master these 400 rebuttals.
(15:13):
I've got to, I got to learnall these manipulation tactics and
I've got to do neurolinguistic programming.
And none of that matters.
Now.
Are there sales strategiesthat you can use like the takeaway
and regaining control bytaking, by asking the questions?
Yes.
Is that anything you gottaworry about right away?
(15:34):
Not at all.
This goes back to kind of likewe see in digital.
Digital's been an interesting thing.
It's taught us a lot about people.
So if you ever blog, you know,the thing about blogging is your
first blog posts are probably horrific.
You know, you've got to get inand find your voice.
And it's the same thing on asales call.
You have to be doing it.
(15:54):
You have to take practice serious.
Listen, sales is, that is the,is the hardest working most.
You'll make the most money inany other career.
It's also the easiest, lowestpaying job.
The deciding factor is the practitioner.
So if you practice, likereally, truly practice your craft,
(16:14):
you can blow the doors offthis thing and make, I mean there's
high school dropouts making amillion dollars a year.
They practice.
That's the difference.
You know, it's, it's likeanything else that you want to be
excellent at.
You got to put the time in.
And that's where I see someresistance coming from.
And, and you know, people wantit to be the prospecting video that
(16:36):
they saw where it's just me onvacation having drinks.
You know, there, there's somethings you have to do to earn those
kinds of trips.
So I, I think that, yeah,that's probably it.
And then Watching people fighttheir own demons.
And then the other is alwayslooking for the new shiny object.
What's the silver bulletthat's going to save me from having
(16:56):
to do the work?
There isn't one.
There never will be.
It's all a waste of time,energy, and effort.
So put all that to the side,get in front of a mirror and practice
your open.
Hey, Dave, how you doing?
What got you on the call withme today?
What can I help you with?
What are we looking at?
What'd you see in the ad thatgrabbed your attention?
And then shut the hell up andlet them talk.
(17:18):
And you're going to learneverything you need to know to help
that person protect their family.
It's simple, really.
Okay.
And so what's onecounterintuitive lesson that you've
learned on yourentrepreneurial journey that might
surprise our listeners?
(17:40):
Being wrong is a bad thing.
Being wrong is your mission.
You gotta fail and you gottafail fast.
So I, we, we've been taughtsince we were kids the wrong answer
is a bad answer.
You know, you get a bad mark,you get a bad report card, you get
grounded.
All these bad things happenwhen you're wrong.
(18:03):
So it puts us in a state offear of being wrong, which means
we never fully commit.
And the reality is, everythingyou need to be the best is only sitting
in your failure.
So the second you realizefailing is the quickest path to success
is the time that you'reactually going to start to blow the
(18:24):
doors off.
Whatever it is you're lookingto do.
You got to accept it and yougot to embrace it and look at it
as a gift.
Love that.
Okay.
And you know, Todd, people canlook at, you know, your success and,
and what you've built and youknow, I'm sure there's some maybe
(18:45):
misunderstandings, but what doyou think is the, the biggest misconception
about what it takes to, to getto the top level?
That's a good one, brother.
You know, I, I think, I thinkpeople feel like it's easy.
(19:06):
You know, this guy did it andman, they make it sound so easy.
And the reality is, until youfind your voice and you find your
footing and you understandexactly what it is that you're doing
through hours of practice and,and, and self reflection, it's not
going to be easy.
It's going to be really hardand really challenging and make you
(19:29):
feel like you want to cry andquit and clean your house instead
of do everything else right.
Yeah, I, I, that's it.
Really.
It's just hard.
You Got to do the work.
If you don't do the work, youknow, you're not going to be Michael
Jordan.
How many people you think wantto be Michael Jordan?
(19:50):
How many kids grew up with basketball?
How many kids played reallygreat all through, you know, their
childhood and high school andeven went on to play at college and
never made it to the pros?
Right.
Everybody puts in the work.
They all want to be there.
Not everybody, not everybodyis willing, I'm saying not everybody
is willing to get to the pointand do the things you have to do
(20:13):
to be the top of your game.
You know, there's a reasonthere's one or two really good sales
guys on every team andeverybody else is kind of middle
of the road.
It's because those people haveput in the time.
You know, when I'm driving mycar, I'm listening to Get Better,
I do this still.
I'm still reading sales books,I'm still on blogs, I'm still watching
and listening to podcastsbecause I'm still learning or being
(20:36):
reminded of things.
You know, we aren't always allgonna be the best all the time.
So it's really helpful toconstantly be in that mode of openness
and lear.
So, you know, you got to putin the time.
If you want to make the money,you got to put in the time.
You don't own anything in thisworld until you pay for it.
And for us, that currency isinvesting in yourself and your time
(20:59):
and giving yourself permissionto fail and to move on and keep,
keep pushing forward.
Does that answer that question?
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
And Todd, how is the evolutionof technology and particularly AI
change the landscape of lead generation?
You know, particularly forlife insurance?
(21:20):
Yeah.
So Dave, I don't, I don'tthink for the lead gen side, it's,
it's at the point where it'sreally doing a whole lot there.
But on the lead nurturingside, getting the agents into the
sales conversation, havingconsistency in lead follow up and
nurturing is where the win is,I feel at this point.
So we've got agents, we have,we run a conversational AI inside
(21:43):
our CRM.
It is not the leadcommunication, it is a piece of the
communication.
So we lean into pre cannedlead nurturing, agent interaction
and AI conversational nurturing.
And then you have to definewhat those roles are.
Right.
(22:03):
Like each, each AI tool oragent that you implement has to have
a specialty, just like everyperson does in your company.
Your top closer is not yourreceptionist and your receptionist
isn't doing things that yourCFO is doing.
Right.
Each one of those is a job.
So each one of those pieces oftechnology needs to do its job and
(22:25):
understand how that flows together.
So I think we're going to seea lot more come of AI in the next
six to 18 months.
That's really going to changethe sales landscape.
We're working on some reallygreat tools for not just the sales
piece and the lead nurturing,but the other side of the equation
that really gets neglectedquite often, and that's the sales
(22:46):
training and nurturing of theagent skills.
Okay, and how would youbalance the need for cutting edge
technology, you know, such asAI, with the human element that's
so critical in building trustwith your clients?
Well, the first is you letthem know it's AI, right?
(23:08):
That you don't.
We don't trick people.
Right.
So.
Hey, Dave, I'm Todd's AI assistant.
If you'd like to speak to Toddinstead of me, I can make sure that
I either transfer you over nowor I can book an appointment for
you to speak to him.
But if you're cool with this,I have a couple questions for you
so that Todd can put someproposals together.
It's that type of thing, right?
It's, it's full transparency.
(23:29):
It's not trying to pull a fastone on somebody and trick them into
thinking they're talking to a person.
We saw that when chatbotsfirst came out a handful of years
ago.
First of all, they werehorrific, right?
Because it wasn'tconversational, it wasn't AI driven.
It was if this, then that typestuff and you'd ask a question and
it wasn't trained for it andyou get an answer back and you go,
(23:51):
okay, this isn't clearly isnot a person.
And then you're done.
Because the user experience,you lost the trust.
So I think it's really easy tokeep the trust if you're just straight
up, you're talking to AI right now.
Have you talked to AI before, Dave?
No.
Well, cool.
Let's have some fun with this.
And by the way, if any pointyou want to speak to a human, just
(24:11):
say so, and I'll get you overto one.
So what do you say?
Want to go ahead and ask some questions?
You know, that type of thing?
That's really it.
Okay.
And what's a story from yourjourney that really highlights the
impact Razor Ridge Leads hashad on an individual agent?
(24:32):
Success.
It's one of my favoritethings, is to get the feedback from
agents.
We run a done for you programinside of Razor Ridge, where we pretty
much set up a little marketingagency for you, generating exclusive
leads just for you.
(24:52):
I can't tell you now, we getpeople like anything that will come
in and completely bomb out,but the ones that work the program
and understand that they'vegot to evolve as a salesperson and
as a life agent.
The ones that do, we've takenpeople that have struggled and turned
them into top performers.
You know, when you get thatemail that somebody made $45,000
(25:13):
last month on a $2,000 all ininvestment, and they just.
It changes their life.
You get to be part of a verysmall piece of it, but you get to
be part of that transition.
I realized years and years agothat what I do as a sales manager
is talked about at the dinnertable of my salespeople with their
(25:37):
families.
And once I think you realizethat, you start to take a different
ownership and.
And approach to how you workwith somebody, you know, and.
And you realize that you're aripple effect.
You know, it's.
It's.
They make more money.
They get to change their life.
Their family gets to changetheir life.
(25:59):
It's.
It's a really.
It's a really cool thing thatwhen I first started this, truthfully,
Dave, I.
I was too young and naive toeven think about.
I was all about driving the.
Driving the.
Moving the needle, you know,pushing the.
Pushing the P.
L.
And.
And all that kind of fun.
Stu day, somebody told me astory about their dinner conversation
(26:20):
involving me, and I was like,oh, wow, this is really.
Like.
This is because I talk aboutthem at dinner.
Why didn't I think they weretalking about me and the things that
we were doing?
So I love to hear all of it.
I love to hear the successes.
I love to see somebody finallyfind their footing and just really
own that thing that they camehere for.
(26:42):
You know, we all have thisdream of.
Of what we're doing or the.
Or direction that we want totake our lives because we're miserable
where we currently are.
We're not making enough moneyor we just want to do better by our
families.
To be a part of.
Of seeing that happen is.
It's everything that's, youknow, money's great, but it only
goes so far.
(27:02):
Right?
So, yeah, lots of thoselittle, little wins.
Okay.
All right.
And, Todd, if people want toget in touch with you, learn more
about Razor Ridge or reachout, what's the best way people can.
Can find you online?
Yeah.
So raise a ridge.com always.
You can find our links to ourYouTube channel.
(27:24):
Our LinkedIn and our Facebook page.
Our Facebook page is closed.
We do trainings in there allthe time.
There's great resources.
You get your freeconversational sales training on
our website.
I don't charge for it.
It is hands down better thanthe 90% of the paid programs on the
market.
Our YouTube channel, we doweekly lives.
We do exclusive trainings inthere as well.
(27:46):
We build on the four core andon how to use Pipeline to manage
your business.
So follow us and hang out with us.
We'd love to see you.
I go live every Thursday.
All that can be found on thewebsite and in our Facebook group.
I do live trainings.
Last couple weeks have beenlive role playing.
We're moving into a new seriesstarting next week after Easter.
(28:07):
So we've got a lot of.
A lot of really cool thingskind of hanging in and around there.
So come hang out with us.
We'd love to see you.
All right, we'll link all thatin the show notes for everyone.
All right.
Well, Todd, thank you so muchfor taking the time to be here and
sharing all this valuablewisdom from your journey with our
audience.
We greatly appreciate it.
Dave, thanks for having me.
This was great.
Appreciate you.
All right.
(28:27):
And that's all the time wehave for now.
We will see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com