March 25, 2025 • 26 mins
Welcome to the Beyond Fulfillment Podcast, where we dive into the journeys of successful entrepreneurs, small business owners, and startup founders. In this episode, our guest is Devin Miller, founder and CEO of Miller IP, who shares invaluable insights from his extensive entrepreneurial journey. Devin discusses the pivotal moments that led him from an education in electrical engineering and Chinese to becoming an attorney and entrepreneur. Learn how Devin managed to simultaneously earn multiple degrees and launch multiple startups, including a law firm that caters specifically to startups and small businesses.
We explore the challenges and surprises encountered in the world of entrepreneurship and how Devin's background in law has become a significant asset. Discover the lessons Devin learned from working with large corporations like Amazon and Intel before transitioning to support emerging businesses. Devin also discusses the importance of intellectual property and brand protection for startups.
Join us as we uncover the real stories behind success, the struggles, and breakthroughs through Devin's experiences and the Inventive Journey podcast, which showcases the dynamic paths of various entrepreneurs. Subscribe for more episodes packed with strategies, insights, and inspiration to fuel your entrepreneurial journey.
Timestamped Overview:
05:26 Influence and Business Ambitions
09:12 From Boutique to Big Law: Reflections
13:09 Success Through Focus and Effort
16:24 Sharing Startup Journeys
17:42 "Highlight Reels vs. Reality"
22:43 Contact Options for Consultation
23:53 Podcast Guest Appreciation
Connect with Devin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lawwithmiller/
Visit his website: http://lawwithmiller.com/
Learn more about Traffic Ninjas: https://join.thetrafficninjas.com/vegas-retreat-bfcm?am_id=ezdc3pl
#DevinMiller #MillerIP #Founder #CEO #ElectricalEngineering #Chinese #Startups #SmallBusinesses #Patents #Trademarks #MBA #LawDegree #Wearables #FoodTruck #ReligiousProducts #LeadGenerationPlatform #Entrepreneur #Attorney #LargeLawFirms #Podcast #InventiveJourney #ChurchOfJesusChristOfLatterDaySaints #Innovation #BusinessAdministration #LegalAspect #BrandProtection #ClientBase #StrategyMeeting #StrategyMeetingDotCom #LawWithMiller #MeetMiller #SocialMedia #LinkedIn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Today we sit down with DevinMiller, the founder and CEO of Miller
IP Law.
Devin's multifaceted careerincludes an impressive blend of electrical
engineering, legal expertiseand entrepreneurial success.
Not only has he founded athriving law firm focused on patents
(00:21):
and trademarks, but he's alsolaunched several startups across
different industries, fromwearables to food trucks.
Devin takes us through hisfascinating journey of achieving
4 degrees and shares why hechose the balance of a dual career
as a lawyer and a serial entrepreneur.
Hear about the surprises andchallenges he encountered in building
(00:44):
businesses, the value ofembracing an entrepreneurial mindset,
and how his podcast, theInventive Journey, aims to highlight
the authentic ups and downs of entrepreneurship.
Whether you're an aspiringentrepreneur or simply curious about
blending legal acumen withbusiness innovation, this conversation
(01:06):
is packed with insights and inspiration.
Stay tuned as Devin revealswhat it takes to thrive in today's
fast changing world ofbusiness and law.
As always, if you found valuefrom this content, please like and
subscribe.
Hello everyone and welcome toanother episode of the Beyond Fulfillment
podcast.
I'm your host, Dave Goulis,and this week my guest is the founder
(01:30):
and CEO of Miller ip, Devin Miller.
Welcome, Devin.
Hey Dave, thanks for having me on.
Excited to be here?
Absolutely.
We appreciate you taking the time.
So, Devin, you've had a longhistory in business with not only
Miller IP but some othercompanies as well.
Can you just walk us through your.
(01:51):
Your backstory and how you gotto where you are?
Yeah, and that could beanywhere from a.
The short version to a muchlonger and extended version.
So I'll try and keep it a bitof a bite sized chunk.
So.
So really it to give you alittle bit of the backstory, it really
started with undergraduate.
So my wife always jokes I gotthree degrees, which my wife.
(02:12):
Sorry, four degrees, which mywife always jokes is three degrees
too many.
But I got undergraduate, I didelectrical engineering as well as
Chinese.
As I was coming out of focuswas on electrical engineering and
as I was coming out of that itwas really saying, hey, I like engineering
but I didn't want to be an engineer.
In other words, I didn't wantto be a small cog in a big whale
stuck at a big company for along period of time or I had any
(02:34):
say so with that came out ofundergraduate said do I want to do.
I thought startups and smallbusinesses were interesting.
I also thought the legalaspect of patents and trademarks
and working with a lot ofstartups and small businesses to
protect their ideas and theirbrands and innovations was interesting.
So Rather than choose one orthe other, went straight down the
middle.
Got a mba, Master's ofBusiness Administration as well as
(02:55):
a law degree.
Kind of along that I've alwaystaken both paths.
So I did got a law degree.
I've been an attorney for 1112years now.
I'd have to think of the exactdate now, but 1112 years doing that
full time as a an attorney andstarted out working for large law
firms and then started my ownfirm Miller IP about six years ago.
(03:19):
And alongside of that I'vedone several other startups and small
businesses.
So I've done everything fromwhen I was doing the law degree in
the MBA degree, did wearables,I've done a food truck with my kids.
I've done a small religiousproducts business with with my family
lead generation platform thatstarted as an internal project.
(03:39):
So really it's kind of alwaystaken that I'll do the law as a full
time and then the second fulltime job is all the entrepreneurial
endeavors.
So that's probably asconsolidated as I can get.
But I'm happy to expound onanything beyond that.
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Okay, so wow, quite, quite afascinating journey and just from
(04:24):
the education aspect.
So you started off inelectrical engineering and Chinese
and then you pivoted tobusiness and being an entrepreneur
as well as a lawyer.
Quite a fascinating pit.
So walk us through what thatwas like in terms of just the sheer.
(04:48):
I mean one degree is, isplenty but all these degrees and
seems like a very short periodof time.
How did you manage to do that?
Very busy and a lot of work.
No, I mean so one thing Ialways looked at is if I was going
to be in school, I was alwaysgoing to utilize or get as much done
(05:09):
as I could.
So I always figured hey, ifI'm going to be studying, getting
a degree, why not double upand get a double or dual degree at
the same time.
So that's where the electricalengineering and Chinese.
Now Chinese people kind of sayhey, that's a little bit out of left
field.
It is.
Other than.
So I I served a religiousmission for my church, Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Nick nicknamed the Mormons.
(05:30):
So I went to Taiwan which isChinese speaking.
Debatable as to whether or notit's part of China.
Depends on who you ask.
That's a whole other conversation.
But I came back and added thaton as a second degree.
And then the same thing when Iwent off to graduate school, I says,
hey, I could get a law degree,that'd be three years.
I could get an mba, that's two years.
Or I could comb them and it'sonly a total of four years.
So I shave that off and have alot more of the background.
(05:53):
So for me, it was really always.
One was the goal was, if I'mgoing to be in school and working
my butt off, why not get asmuch education and as much background
in the things that I thinkwill be beneficial to the career
as possible?
And then two, it was justrunning as much as possible.
So not that you ask or kind ofgive me a context.
When I was doing the lawdegree, the MBA degree set the stage.
(06:15):
So I was doing the two degreesat the same time.
I had, I had a two year old atthat time and I, and, and then I
had the, I had a newborn.
I was working about 20 hoursas a law clerk at a law firm.
And that's also when I startedthe, the first wearables business.
So I don't know how I got itall done and it was just a busy time.
(06:35):
But that was kind of thecontext of I always tend to probably,
you know, pack more things inthan I should and I always have to
try and find that balance, butalways looking to maximize the time
when I'm, when I'm doing something.
Okay, all right.
And did you always know thatyou wanted to be an entrepreneur,
like growing up?
You know, it's a good question.
(06:56):
I, I don't know that I have an answer.
I mean, I, I've thought about it.
I've been asked before.
You know, I certainly grew up,my dad was, or kind of had more of
the entrepreneurial bent.
He did some of his ownbusinesses, he worked for some smaller
businesses or startups, and healways kind of had some projects.
So I always saw that now, Idon't know that I ever looked at
and said, hey, I want tofollow my dad's footsteps, or that's
(07:17):
what I want to be, but there'sprobably an influence there.
But really, you know, so Ialways kind of love the idea of business
in general, especially as Igot more into the end of the undergraduate
kind of looking at what Iwanted to be when I grow up, so to
speak.
Although I don't know if I'vefully answered that, but with that,
you know, I kind of, as Iincrementally probably had that earlier
(07:39):
influence, probably kind ofwent under the radar, didn't really
think about it.
And then as I started toreally more get towards the end of
the undergraduate, started tolook and say, what do I want to do?
And that's where I kind ofsaid, hey, I think the startup small
business kind of doing yourown thing is interesting.
And then it took me some kindof path to navigate to figure out
how I wanted to do that.
(08:00):
Okay, and so as you mentioned,you started several different businesses.
What was the biggest surpriseyou encountered, you know, starting
all these different companies?
Probably the, the biggestsurprise is the, the level of naiveness.
(08:22):
It's probably beneficial, butthe level of naiveness.
I think everybody thinks that they're.
And I was the same way,exception to the rule.
And hey, everybody else, ittakes them longer.
And they always say, you know,it's going to be longer, it's going
to take you more money, it'sgoing to know there's going to be
ups and downs.
You think, oh yeah, that's foreverybody else.
And I'm going to be theexception and I'll get it right the
first time and do everything perfectly.
And then you get into it andyou figure out, no, it does take
(08:44):
a lot longer.
It's a lot more effort, It's alot more time and money and involvement.
And so I think now the, theflip side of that is I think if you
were to know all of that onthe front end, in other words, if
you know, hey, it's going totake a lot more money and time and
effort and stress and youmight have failures, you might have
success if you knew all thaton the front end.
Nobody would ever get startedon a business because it would be
(09:05):
so daunting that you never get.
But I think that's probablythe looking back, the thing that
probably, you know, wasn't orsomething, I was a bit naive or otherwise
didn't necessarily appreciategoing into it.
And now I'm probably, nowevery time I look at a business say
that's going to be a lot of work.
If I'm going to do that, Ireally want to better enjoy it.
Ah, okay.
(09:26):
And how is being an attorneyand having that, that background
been an asset to you in, in business?
Yeah, I mean certainly it's,it helps that I can do my own legal
work, in other words.
Right.
You know, as opposed to a degree.
Now I don't get Outside of myarea of expertise, if you wanted
(09:47):
to go into divorce ormigration law or you know, a lot
of those other types of areasor you know, even bankruptcy in that
I don't get involved in thatnor do I want to even litigation.
But as an example, most of myor I think all the businesses that
have to think if there's anexception, all have brands.
Right?
You always, almost everybusiness you're going to build has
a brand, which means I canfile the trademarks.
(10:09):
Some of the businesses thatwere more heavily into technology
and innovations was able to,you know, do the, the patents on
that side.
So it did allow on theleveraging of the background to be
able to, to leverage theability to reduce the cost as well
as understand the, the legalside of things as well as the business
(10:31):
with the mba.
But on the legal side toreduce costs, get a better return
on investment as well asunderstand the process.
So it kind of was beneficial.
A lot of the business aspects.
Okay.
All right.
And so you mentioned you workfor some larger corporate firms for
the first several years andthen eventually you, you started
Miller ip.
(10:52):
So what made you decide tostart your own law firm?
Yeah, so, so yes to your point.
So I worked at, you know, kindof a mid size, more of a boutique
when I started out.
Moved over to a large lawfirm, law firm top 100.
I had the opportunity to workwith clients through that firm that
were Amazon, Intel, Red Hat,Ford and others.
(11:15):
So certainly in our largerecognizable businesses and you know,
from that perspective, it'salways cool.
Everybody says, oh, Amazon,you know, what did you work on?
I say, well, I worked on theKindle and this aspect, and this
aspect sounds a lot moreglamorous than it was because very
small cog and a big will theyfile lots of patents, but those type
of things.
But as I was going throughthat, I got a lot of great experience
(11:36):
but I always kind of keptcircling back with, as I was going
through that, which were theclients that I really enjoyed working
with.
In other words, was it thebiggest name recognizable ones or
is it the stall or smallstartup or small business that wasn't
as name recognizable but wasreally kind of a fun business that
I gotta have a lot more say in.
I gotta have a lot morestrategy with kind of input, direction,
(11:59):
guidance and really kind ofwhen I step back and said, hey, I
like working with more startupand small businesses and going or
kind of giving that or havingthat as a direction of wanting to
go as a large law firms reallyaren't set up for That, I mean they,
if you give them enough moneyand they'll kind of, you know, do
the work and you'll go throughtheir system.
It's not really set up forstartups and small businesses.
(12:21):
They're not really catering tothat crowd, but they'll still do
it for you.
But there's a difference whenhey, this is who we're, you know,
here's a system, here's theexplanation, here's how we walk you
through it, here's how we areset up.
All of our kind of the step bystep process, our explanations and
working with those type ofclients, more headaches, but there's
also more reward.
And that's kind of where Iwanted to be.
(12:42):
So that's kind of as I wassaying after I got about five to
six years into my career saysthose are the clients I want to work
with because I want to workwith those clients.
Large law firms weren't goingto provide that opportunity.
So I wanted to do or do a firmthat did focus on that.
Most firms don't.
And I also lovedentrepreneurship startups and small
businesses, so said why don'tI strike out and do it on my own?
(13:05):
Okay.
All right.
And when you made thatdecision and you launched out, I
mean, what was it like growingyour client base when transitioning
from like you said, largeenterprise level companies to, to
startups?
Yeah, I mean, so beneficial.
Some of the businesses that Istarted all the way back to even
MBA school were, you know,they've grown beyond, you know, just
(13:27):
me and their businesses andtheir own momentum, had some client
base built in with that.
So some of the businesses Istarted actually became my own clients
as I stepped or stepped backor made an exit or otherwise maintain
good relationships.
But also working for a numberof different firms kind of over that
period of time also startedbuilding up clientele that were wanting
(13:49):
to, that had a goodrelationship with, you know, with
a lot of service basedbusinesses you're more focused on
the individual that you workwith, not necessarily on the firm
that you're at.
And so kind of as I buildthose relationships, kind of built
out a book of business thatallowed you, not everybody, some
stayed with the other firmsbut migrate with the firm.
So kind of had at least ainitial client base within which
(14:13):
to leverage to start to buildthe firm.
Okay.
And as you're working withthese small businesses and these
startups and you know,focusing on like the IP aspect, you
know, of, of the, you know of,of the, the scope of work, like what
are some of the most Importantlessons that you learned through,
(14:34):
through that process.
Sorry, say your question onemore time.
Yeah.
In terms of working with allthese startups, right.
And, and transitioning fromthe corporate world, what, what are
some of some important lessonsthat you learned after the fact,
after working with thesecompanies that you can apply to,
to your own businesses?
(14:54):
You know, it's probably onewhere it's going to be the, it's
pretty similar to, you know, alot of other businesses in the sense
that, you know, if you outworkeverybody, you know, as much as you
have talent, as much astalent, you do need, you know, you
know, to be an expert in your field.
But more so than anything,it's just outworking everybody.
(15:14):
And it doesn't even mean thatit is you work more hours in the
day.
It's that you put in aconcerted effort, you're focused,
you apply your skills, youfocus on the things you can add the
most value on.
And really if you can start tohone in on that, whatever businesses
it is, whether it's building alaw firm, doing a service based business,
a product based business, ifyou can have those kind of focusing
(15:35):
on where you can add the mostvalue, that was probably the biggest
takeaway that I saw with theother businesses that as I did my
own endeavors as well as buildthe own firm that intended to have
the greatest impact.
Okay.
And that sounds too like very,it sounds like some of that like
engineer in you in terms ofjust trying to find out the most
(15:58):
efficient way to operate, themost efficient way to work, to, you
know, provide the maximum output.
Is that, is that fair to say?
Yep, absolutely.
I think that, you know,there's, there's aspects that I probably
pull from within each, everydegree I did, you know, some of the
engineering is the systems andthe way to analyze things and look
at it, you know, from Chinese,you know, sometimes it's looking
(16:20):
at it from a less ananalytical perspective.
In other words, providing that by.
Or that balance, you know, theMBA is going to be from a business
perspective and the legal isgoing to be from the, to the law
perspective and kind of, Itend to look and kind of pull the
different areas of learning orthe different things that are takeaways
from those, from thosedifferent degrees and from those
(16:43):
different experiences ofbackground and then smash it all
together.
And it tends to probably havea unique outcome because you know,
typically you only have aexperience or background in one of
those and to be able to pullfrom the different aspects of a lot
of them probably gives alittle bit of a Leg up.
Okay.
All right.
And along the way, you alsostarted a podcast, and it's called
(17:06):
the Inventive Journey.
So, yep, talk.
Talk about that process and.
And what made you decide to do that.
Yeah, so, I mean, it wasreally more so out of working with
a lot of startups and smallbusinesses myself.
So in other words, so as I wasworking with a lot of startups and
small businesses, in additiondoing my own journey, but I kind
(17:29):
of kept hearing the samereoccurring thing.
Now everybody is different.
They have their own journey,whether they start early or later,
products or services or whatkind of business.
But on the other hand, there'salso some commonalities of, hey,
I'm having to wear a lot of hats.
There's ups and downs.
Feels like I'm the only onethat's failing.
It feels like I'm the only onethat doesn't have it figured out.
And so kind of with that, youknow, which is far from the truth,
(17:52):
everybody has to wear lots of hats.
Getting so.
Okay, I'll put almost every.
Everyone.
I'm sure there's an exceptionto the rule, but vast majority have
to wear a lot of hats.
You're feeling like you're a failure.
You're feeling like everybodyelse has it figured out.
And in other words, there'sthose commonalities.
And yet when you're goingthrough the trenches and doing it
on your own, you oftentimesdon't get that perspective.
And so with that, it wasreally the wanting to set a more
(18:14):
accurate or a correctperspective of, hey, everybody goes
through those.
And while everybody's journeyand how they experience that may
be different, you're stillgoing to be able to hear those commonalities
and learn from how otherpeople dealt with that.
So I was really where thepodcast, the genesis level, was just
starting to share thosejourneys of different founders, co
(18:35):
founders, owners of startupsand small businesses.
And we go all the way back tothe high school, college time frame.
So it's really starting atwhere the journey started all the
way up till today.
Because, you know, thedifference is a lot of times you
just want to jump on, hey,here's why I'm successful today,
and here's the business I grewand how I made it or made my millions
and.
And how I'm retired on anisland somewhere, and all you hear
(18:55):
is a success story, and younever really hear the journey leading
up to that and kind of whatyou went through.
And so we wanted to kind ofcapture that full journey, really.
It was most or it was with thefocus of giving back to clients and
giving or setting a accurateperspective and giving them an ability
to learn that, hey, a lot ofother people are going through this.
And then the, the podcast hasthen just continued to grow and evolve
(19:19):
from there.
Okay, now, so interesting.
So so many people feel likethey're the only ones that don't
have it figured out.
Yeah.
I mean, you look at whetherit's social media, you know, Facebook
or Instagram or, you know,tick tock, I'm not getting into the
political stuff on that.
Or you go into the movies orthe books or the podcast or whatever
it is, whatever you get your,your consume, all you hear, all you
(19:43):
see is the highlight reels ofall everybody's success.
I mean, very.
Most of the time, you know,other than if you're trying to make
a nice little meme that, youknow, you maybe throw up on LinkedIn.
But most of the time, youdon't really share most of the failures
because people don't like tobe looked at as a failure or to relive
something that wasn't fun orless comfortable.
And so you're just getting thehighlight reels.
And so when you look outwardlyand everybody is only sharing the
(20:04):
highlight reels and howeverything is going amazing, even
if they're on the, you know,in reality, they're on the verge
of bankruptcy or they've hadthree failures before, or they're
currently, you know, having,or making an exit or they're not
making it, or they're beingwildly successful.
You never know all of those.
And so everybody always feelslike, I look at all the other highlight
reels and what am I doing wrong?
Because everybody else seemsto have it figured out.
(20:26):
And so that was really thegenesis of, hey, let's do a realistic,
you know, perspective of howthat is.
Because people do feel, youknow, like that they're the only
ones that don't have thathighlight reels and they're going
through the failures.
Okay, and how is the, how longhave you been doing the podcast?
(20:47):
Four years.
I'd have to look at the exacttime frame.
Three and a half, four years.
Somewhere in there, I thinkwe're up to now 6, 700 episodes.
I can't remember somewhere in there.
So doing it for a little while.
Talk to a lot of entrepreneursand startups and small businesses,
but some are right in there.
Three and a half, four yearsand six, 700 episodes.
Okay.
(21:08):
And hearing all those stories.
Right.
And I can only imagine a widerange of different entrepreneurs
and all types of different upsand downs.
I mean, how was that?
How has that changed like youroutlook on, on business?
Yeah, I don't know that it'schanged or significantly in the sense
(21:28):
of.
It's probably more ofreinforce the things I already knew.
So in other words, it wasn'tlike I had this, this great breakthrough
of hey, I didn't realize thisbefore and wow, this is an amazing.
Now I'm sure thatincrementally I learned things along
the way, but it's more of kindof reinforcing the people are getting
started at different stages oflife which you know, gives me the
(21:48):
perspective when I'm doingthe, the legal aspect hearing that,
you know, everybody'soperating on a budget, everybody
is trying to figure out whereto focus and you know, there's always
more things to spend money onthan money to spend.
And everybody is, doesn't haveeverything figured out and has questions
and needs a little bit of explanation.
And kind of hearing this, alot of those things in aggregate
really kind of built that intothe, at least on the law firm side
(22:11):
of building that into how I goabout now explaining things and giving
that different perspective andwalking things people through it
and all that.
And it's probably, I don'tknow if there's any one thing that
sticks out and more of theaggregate of just kind of say, oh,
that's a unique thing orthat's something that I hadn't really
thought about.
And then I'll kind of look tosee how I incorporate that into the
approach that I take on onboth my businesses as well as the
(22:33):
law firm.
Okay, okay, got it.
All right, and so we're new in2025 right now and you've had Miller
IP for quite a while and the podcast.
So what's what, what's newwith you this year and what are,
what are you most excited about?
Oh, I'm excited about a lot.
So I mean on the perspectiveof, you know, the business side,
(22:58):
if I were to say the law firm,you know, is one of.
It's a bit venturing into the unknown.
Everybody talks about AI legalfield is, you know, isn't any, any
less impacted in the senseyou're looking at and saying it can
either be a great tool or itcan be the downfall of all, you know,
all service based businessesincluding or especially if you're
on a computer andpredominantly in front of a desk.
(23:20):
Hey, what's the impact goingto be?
And short answers, I don't know.
But it's kind of been aninteresting iteration as we look
at how to incorporate that inyou know I or I continue to one of
the things I enjoy is I have acouple small family businesses that
I I get to work with my kidsand we started those and are kind
of just some of their stillpretty early stage but that's really
(23:40):
been rewarding.
So 2025 will be continuing tokind of figure out how to incorporate
the kids as I have theirranges 9 to 14 in the businesses
that we're going and teachthem the lesson to give them an opportunity
to learn and grow on theoutside of work perspective.
I'm sure I will do I usuallytry and do about a marathon a year
(24:01):
trying to decide if I'll do anormal marathon or I'm also excited
about maybe trying to do atrail run at least maybe a half marathon,
doing it on a dirt trail anddoing that.
So number of things that aregoing on that'll or should make for
a fun 2025.
Okay.
All right.
And Devin, if people want toget in touch with you and learn more
about your law firm or thepodcast or anything else that you're
(24:25):
doing, what's way that peoplecan reach out to you?
Yeah, so I'll give kind ofthree different ways that they can
reach out to me kind ofdepending on what they're wanting,
how they're wanting to reachout and what they're wanting to reach
out for.
So if they're so we offer free15 minute consultations where we'll
sit down.
It's not going to be an endall, be all, answer every question
but kind of get you kickedoff, get you started, answers a few
(24:46):
questions and you know, givepoints in the right direction.
To do a free consultation theycan go to strategymeeting.com just
like it soundsstrategymeeting.com if they're wanting
to connect with me on socialI'm sure we have social accounts
every or on all the major platforms.
The one I'm most active onpersonally is on LinkedIn so if they
want to connect with me onLinkedIn they can go to meet miller.com
(25:10):
so just meet M E-E-T and thenmiller my last name meatmiller.com
and the last one is that theyjust want to check out the law firm
website.
We have a ton of resources.
Check out the podcast, checkout our flat fees, check out all
of the information we put outthat's just@lawwith miller.com so
strategymeeting.com if youwant to grab a consultation meet
(25:31):
miller.com if they want toconnect with me on LinkedIn and lawwith
miller.com if they want tocheck out the website.
All right, and we'll link allthat in the show notes for everyone.
All right.
Well, Devin, thank you so muchfor taking the time to be here, sharing
this valuable wisdom from yourjourney and.
And all the exciting thingsthat you're doing.
We greatly appreciate it.
(25:51):
Hey, my pleasure.
It was fun to be on, great tobe on, and a great conversation.
So thank you for having me.
All right, and that's all thetime we have for now.
We will see you next time.
Today we sit down with DevinMiller, the founder and CEO of Miller
IP Law.
Devin's multifaceted careerincludes an impressive blend of electrical
engineering, legal expertiseand entrepreneurial success.
Not only has he founded athriving law firm focused on patents
(00:21):
and trademarks, but he's alsolaunched several startups across
different industries, fromwearables to food trucks.
Devin takes us through hisfascinating journey of achieving
4 degrees and shares why hechose the balance of a dual career
as a lawyer and a serial entrepreneur.
Hear about the surprises andchallenges he encountered in building
(00:44):
businesses, the value ofembracing an entrepreneurial mindset,
and how his podcast, theInventive Journey, aims to highlight
the authentic ups and downs of entrepreneurship.
Whether you're an aspiringentrepreneur or simply curious about
blending legal acumen withbusiness innovation, this conversation
(01:06):
is packed with insights and inspiration.
Stay tuned as Devin revealswhat it takes to thrive in today's
fast changing world ofbusiness and law.
As always, if you found valuefrom this content, please like and
subscribe.
Hello everyone and welcome toanother episode of the Beyond Fulfillment
podcast.
I'm your host, Dave Goulis,and this week my guest is the founder
(01:30):
and CEO of Miller ip, Devin Miller.
Welcome, Devin.
Hey Dave, thanks for having me on.
Excited to be here?
Absolutely.
We appreciate you taking the time.
So, Devin, you've had a longhistory in business with not only
Miller IP but some othercompanies as well.
Can you just walk us through your.
(01:51):
Your backstory and how you gotto where you are?
Yeah, and that could beanywhere from a.
The short version to a muchlonger and extended version.
So I'll try and keep it a bitof a bite sized chunk.
So.
So really it to give you alittle bit of the backstory, it really
started with undergraduate.
So my wife always jokes I gotthree degrees, which my wife.
(02:12):
Sorry, four degrees, which mywife always jokes is three degrees
too many.
But I got undergraduate, I didelectrical engineering as well as
Chinese.
As I was coming out of focuswas on electrical engineering and
as I was coming out of that itwas really saying, hey, I like engineering
but I didn't want to be an engineer.
In other words, I didn't wantto be a small cog in a big whale
stuck at a big company for along period of time or I had any
(02:34):
say so with that came out ofundergraduate said do I want to do.
I thought startups and smallbusinesses were interesting.
I also thought the legalaspect of patents and trademarks
and working with a lot ofstartups and small businesses to
protect their ideas and theirbrands and innovations was interesting.
So Rather than choose one orthe other, went straight down the
middle.
Got a mba, Master's ofBusiness Administration as well as
(02:55):
a law degree.
Kind of along that I've alwaystaken both paths.
So I did got a law degree.
I've been an attorney for 1112years now.
I'd have to think of the exactdate now, but 1112 years doing that
full time as a an attorney andstarted out working for large law
firms and then started my ownfirm Miller IP about six years ago.
(03:19):
And alongside of that I'vedone several other startups and small
businesses.
So I've done everything fromwhen I was doing the law degree in
the MBA degree, did wearables,I've done a food truck with my kids.
I've done a small religiousproducts business with with my family
lead generation platform thatstarted as an internal project.
(03:39):
So really it's kind of alwaystaken that I'll do the law as a full
time and then the second fulltime job is all the entrepreneurial
endeavors.
So that's probably asconsolidated as I can get.
But I'm happy to expound onanything beyond that.
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Okay, so wow, quite, quite afascinating journey and just from
(04:24):
the education aspect.
So you started off inelectrical engineering and Chinese
and then you pivoted tobusiness and being an entrepreneur
as well as a lawyer.
Quite a fascinating pit.
So walk us through what thatwas like in terms of just the sheer.
(04:48):
I mean one degree is, isplenty but all these degrees and
seems like a very short periodof time.
How did you manage to do that?
Very busy and a lot of work.
No, I mean so one thing Ialways looked at is if I was going
to be in school, I was alwaysgoing to utilize or get as much done
(05:09):
as I could.
So I always figured hey, ifI'm going to be studying, getting
a degree, why not double upand get a double or dual degree at
the same time.
So that's where the electricalengineering and Chinese.
Now Chinese people kind of sayhey, that's a little bit out of left
field.
It is.
Other than.
So I I served a religiousmission for my church, Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Nick nicknamed the Mormons.
(05:30):
So I went to Taiwan which isChinese speaking.
Debatable as to whether or notit's part of China.
Depends on who you ask.
That's a whole other conversation.
But I came back and added thaton as a second degree.
And then the same thing when Iwent off to graduate school, I says,
hey, I could get a law degree,that'd be three years.
I could get an mba, that's two years.
Or I could comb them and it'sonly a total of four years.
So I shave that off and have alot more of the background.
(05:53):
So for me, it was really always.
One was the goal was, if I'mgoing to be in school and working
my butt off, why not get asmuch education and as much background
in the things that I thinkwill be beneficial to the career
as possible?
And then two, it was justrunning as much as possible.
So not that you ask or kind ofgive me a context.
When I was doing the lawdegree, the MBA degree set the stage.
(06:15):
So I was doing the two degreesat the same time.
I had, I had a two year old atthat time and I, and, and then I
had the, I had a newborn.
I was working about 20 hoursas a law clerk at a law firm.
And that's also when I startedthe, the first wearables business.
So I don't know how I got itall done and it was just a busy time.
(06:35):
But that was kind of thecontext of I always tend to probably,
you know, pack more things inthan I should and I always have to
try and find that balance, butalways looking to maximize the time
when I'm, when I'm doing something.
Okay, all right.
And did you always know thatyou wanted to be an entrepreneur,
like growing up?
You know, it's a good question.
(06:56):
I, I don't know that I have an answer.
I mean, I, I've thought about it.
I've been asked before.
You know, I certainly grew up,my dad was, or kind of had more of
the entrepreneurial bent.
He did some of his ownbusinesses, he worked for some smaller
businesses or startups, and healways kind of had some projects.
So I always saw that now, Idon't know that I ever looked at
and said, hey, I want tofollow my dad's footsteps, or that's
(07:17):
what I want to be, but there'sprobably an influence there.
But really, you know, so Ialways kind of love the idea of business
in general, especially as Igot more into the end of the undergraduate
kind of looking at what Iwanted to be when I grow up, so to
speak.
Although I don't know if I'vefully answered that, but with that,
you know, I kind of, as Iincrementally probably had that earlier
(07:39):
influence, probably kind ofwent under the radar, didn't really
think about it.
And then as I started toreally more get towards the end of
the undergraduate, started tolook and say, what do I want to do?
And that's where I kind ofsaid, hey, I think the startup small
business kind of doing yourown thing is interesting.
And then it took me some kindof path to navigate to figure out
how I wanted to do that.
(08:00):
Okay, and so as you mentioned,you started several different businesses.
What was the biggest surpriseyou encountered, you know, starting
all these different companies?
Probably the, the biggestsurprise is the, the level of naiveness.
(08:22):
It's probably beneficial, butthe level of naiveness.
I think everybody thinks that they're.
And I was the same way,exception to the rule.
And hey, everybody else, ittakes them longer.
And they always say, you know,it's going to be longer, it's going
to take you more money, it'sgoing to know there's going to be
ups and downs.
You think, oh yeah, that's foreverybody else.
And I'm going to be theexception and I'll get it right the
first time and do everything perfectly.
And then you get into it andyou figure out, no, it does take
(08:44):
a lot longer.
It's a lot more effort, It's alot more time and money and involvement.
And so I think now the, theflip side of that is I think if you
were to know all of that onthe front end, in other words, if
you know, hey, it's going totake a lot more money and time and
effort and stress and youmight have failures, you might have
success if you knew all thaton the front end.
Nobody would ever get startedon a business because it would be
(09:05):
so daunting that you never get.
But I think that's probablythe looking back, the thing that
probably, you know, wasn't orsomething, I was a bit naive or otherwise
didn't necessarily appreciategoing into it.
And now I'm probably, nowevery time I look at a business say
that's going to be a lot of work.
If I'm going to do that, Ireally want to better enjoy it.
Ah, okay.
(09:26):
And how is being an attorneyand having that, that background
been an asset to you in, in business?
Yeah, I mean certainly it's,it helps that I can do my own legal
work, in other words.
Right.
You know, as opposed to a degree.
Now I don't get Outside of myarea of expertise, if you wanted
(09:47):
to go into divorce ormigration law or you know, a lot
of those other types of areasor you know, even bankruptcy in that
I don't get involved in thatnor do I want to even litigation.
But as an example, most of myor I think all the businesses that
have to think if there's anexception, all have brands.
Right?
You always, almost everybusiness you're going to build has
a brand, which means I canfile the trademarks.
(10:09):
Some of the businesses thatwere more heavily into technology
and innovations was able to,you know, do the, the patents on
that side.
So it did allow on theleveraging of the background to be
able to, to leverage theability to reduce the cost as well
as understand the, the legalside of things as well as the business
(10:31):
with the mba.
But on the legal side toreduce costs, get a better return
on investment as well asunderstand the process.
So it kind of was beneficial.
A lot of the business aspects.
Okay.
All right.
And so you mentioned you workfor some larger corporate firms for
the first several years andthen eventually you, you started
Miller ip.
(10:52):
So what made you decide tostart your own law firm?
Yeah, so, so yes to your point.
So I worked at, you know, kindof a mid size, more of a boutique
when I started out.
Moved over to a large lawfirm, law firm top 100.
I had the opportunity to workwith clients through that firm that
were Amazon, Intel, Red Hat,Ford and others.
(11:15):
So certainly in our largerecognizable businesses and you know,
from that perspective, it'salways cool.
Everybody says, oh, Amazon,you know, what did you work on?
I say, well, I worked on theKindle and this aspect, and this
aspect sounds a lot moreglamorous than it was because very
small cog and a big will theyfile lots of patents, but those type
of things.
But as I was going throughthat, I got a lot of great experience
(11:36):
but I always kind of keptcircling back with, as I was going
through that, which were theclients that I really enjoyed working
with.
In other words, was it thebiggest name recognizable ones or
is it the stall or smallstartup or small business that wasn't
as name recognizable but wasreally kind of a fun business that
I gotta have a lot more say in.
I gotta have a lot morestrategy with kind of input, direction,
(11:59):
guidance and really kind ofwhen I step back and said, hey, I
like working with more startupand small businesses and going or
kind of giving that or havingthat as a direction of wanting to
go as a large law firms reallyaren't set up for That, I mean they,
if you give them enough moneyand they'll kind of, you know, do
the work and you'll go throughtheir system.
It's not really set up forstartups and small businesses.
(12:21):
They're not really catering tothat crowd, but they'll still do
it for you.
But there's a difference whenhey, this is who we're, you know,
here's a system, here's theexplanation, here's how we walk you
through it, here's how we areset up.
All of our kind of the step bystep process, our explanations and
working with those type ofclients, more headaches, but there's
also more reward.
And that's kind of where Iwanted to be.
(12:42):
So that's kind of as I wassaying after I got about five to
six years into my career saysthose are the clients I want to work
with because I want to workwith those clients.
Large law firms weren't goingto provide that opportunity.
So I wanted to do or do a firmthat did focus on that.
Most firms don't.
And I also lovedentrepreneurship startups and small
businesses, so said why don'tI strike out and do it on my own?
(13:05):
Okay.
All right.
And when you made thatdecision and you launched out, I
mean, what was it like growingyour client base when transitioning
from like you said, largeenterprise level companies to, to
startups?
Yeah, I mean, so beneficial.
Some of the businesses that Istarted all the way back to even
MBA school were, you know,they've grown beyond, you know, just
(13:27):
me and their businesses andtheir own momentum, had some client
base built in with that.
So some of the businesses Istarted actually became my own clients
as I stepped or stepped backor made an exit or otherwise maintain
good relationships.
But also working for a numberof different firms kind of over that
period of time also startedbuilding up clientele that were wanting
(13:49):
to, that had a goodrelationship with, you know, with
a lot of service basedbusinesses you're more focused on
the individual that you workwith, not necessarily on the firm
that you're at.
And so kind of as I buildthose relationships, kind of built
out a book of business thatallowed you, not everybody, some
stayed with the other firmsbut migrate with the firm.
So kind of had at least ainitial client base within which
(14:13):
to leverage to start to buildthe firm.
Okay.
And as you're working withthese small businesses and these
startups and you know,focusing on like the IP aspect, you
know, of, of the, you know of,of the, the scope of work, like what
are some of the most Importantlessons that you learned through,
(14:34):
through that process.
Sorry, say your question onemore time.
Yeah.
In terms of working with allthese startups, right.
And, and transitioning fromthe corporate world, what, what are
some of some important lessonsthat you learned after the fact,
after working with thesecompanies that you can apply to,
to your own businesses?
(14:54):
You know, it's probably onewhere it's going to be the, it's
pretty similar to, you know, alot of other businesses in the sense
that, you know, if you outworkeverybody, you know, as much as you
have talent, as much astalent, you do need, you know, you
know, to be an expert in your field.
But more so than anything,it's just outworking everybody.
(15:14):
And it doesn't even mean thatit is you work more hours in the
day.
It's that you put in aconcerted effort, you're focused,
you apply your skills, youfocus on the things you can add the
most value on.
And really if you can start tohone in on that, whatever businesses
it is, whether it's building alaw firm, doing a service based business,
a product based business, ifyou can have those kind of focusing
(15:35):
on where you can add the mostvalue, that was probably the biggest
takeaway that I saw with theother businesses that as I did my
own endeavors as well as buildthe own firm that intended to have
the greatest impact.
Okay.
And that sounds too like very,it sounds like some of that like
engineer in you in terms ofjust trying to find out the most
(15:58):
efficient way to operate, themost efficient way to work, to, you
know, provide the maximum output.
Is that, is that fair to say?
Yep, absolutely.
I think that, you know,there's, there's aspects that I probably
pull from within each, everydegree I did, you know, some of the
engineering is the systems andthe way to analyze things and look
at it, you know, from Chinese,you know, sometimes it's looking
(16:20):
at it from a less ananalytical perspective.
In other words, providing that by.
Or that balance, you know, theMBA is going to be from a business
perspective and the legal isgoing to be from the, to the law
perspective and kind of, Itend to look and kind of pull the
different areas of learning orthe different things that are takeaways
from those, from thosedifferent degrees and from those
(16:43):
different experiences ofbackground and then smash it all
together.
And it tends to probably havea unique outcome because you know,
typically you only have aexperience or background in one of
those and to be able to pullfrom the different aspects of a lot
of them probably gives alittle bit of a Leg up.
Okay.
All right.
And along the way, you alsostarted a podcast, and it's called
(17:06):
the Inventive Journey.
So, yep, talk.
Talk about that process and.
And what made you decide to do that.
Yeah, so, I mean, it wasreally more so out of working with
a lot of startups and smallbusinesses myself.
So in other words, so as I wasworking with a lot of startups and
small businesses, in additiondoing my own journey, but I kind
(17:29):
of kept hearing the samereoccurring thing.
Now everybody is different.
They have their own journey,whether they start early or later,
products or services or whatkind of business.
But on the other hand, there'salso some commonalities of, hey,
I'm having to wear a lot of hats.
There's ups and downs.
Feels like I'm the only onethat's failing.
It feels like I'm the only onethat doesn't have it figured out.
And so kind of with that, youknow, which is far from the truth,
(17:52):
everybody has to wear lots of hats.
Getting so.
Okay, I'll put almost every.
Everyone.
I'm sure there's an exceptionto the rule, but vast majority have
to wear a lot of hats.
You're feeling like you're a failure.
You're feeling like everybodyelse has it figured out.
And in other words, there'sthose commonalities.
And yet when you're goingthrough the trenches and doing it
on your own, you oftentimesdon't get that perspective.
And so with that, it wasreally the wanting to set a more
(18:14):
accurate or a correctperspective of, hey, everybody goes
through those.
And while everybody's journeyand how they experience that may
be different, you're stillgoing to be able to hear those commonalities
and learn from how otherpeople dealt with that.
So I was really where thepodcast, the genesis level, was just
starting to share thosejourneys of different founders, co
(18:35):
founders, owners of startupsand small businesses.
And we go all the way back tothe high school, college time frame.
So it's really starting atwhere the journey started all the
way up till today.
Because, you know, thedifference is a lot of times you
just want to jump on, hey,here's why I'm successful today,
and here's the business I grewand how I made it or made my millions
and.
And how I'm retired on anisland somewhere, and all you hear
(18:55):
is a success story, and younever really hear the journey leading
up to that and kind of whatyou went through.
And so we wanted to kind ofcapture that full journey, really.
It was most or it was with thefocus of giving back to clients and
giving or setting a accurateperspective and giving them an ability
to learn that, hey, a lot ofother people are going through this.
And then the, the podcast hasthen just continued to grow and evolve
(19:19):
from there.
Okay, now, so interesting.
So so many people feel likethey're the only ones that don't
have it figured out.
Yeah.
I mean, you look at whetherit's social media, you know, Facebook
or Instagram or, you know,tick tock, I'm not getting into the
political stuff on that.
Or you go into the movies orthe books or the podcast or whatever
it is, whatever you get your,your consume, all you hear, all you
(19:43):
see is the highlight reels ofall everybody's success.
I mean, very.
Most of the time, you know,other than if you're trying to make
a nice little meme that, youknow, you maybe throw up on LinkedIn.
But most of the time, youdon't really share most of the failures
because people don't like tobe looked at as a failure or to relive
something that wasn't fun orless comfortable.
And so you're just getting thehighlight reels.
And so when you look outwardlyand everybody is only sharing the
(20:04):
highlight reels and howeverything is going amazing, even
if they're on the, you know,in reality, they're on the verge
of bankruptcy or they've hadthree failures before, or they're
currently, you know, having,or making an exit or they're not
making it, or they're beingwildly successful.
You never know all of those.
And so everybody always feelslike, I look at all the other highlight
reels and what am I doing wrong?
Because everybody else seemsto have it figured out.
(20:26):
And so that was really thegenesis of, hey, let's do a realistic,
you know, perspective of howthat is.
Because people do feel, youknow, like that they're the only
ones that don't have thathighlight reels and they're going
through the failures.
Okay, and how is the, how longhave you been doing the podcast?
(20:47):
Four years.
I'd have to look at the exacttime frame.
Three and a half, four years.
Somewhere in there, I thinkwe're up to now 6, 700 episodes.
I can't remember somewhere in there.
So doing it for a little while.
Talk to a lot of entrepreneursand startups and small businesses,
but some are right in there.
Three and a half, four yearsand six, 700 episodes.
Okay.
(21:08):
And hearing all those stories.
Right.
And I can only imagine a widerange of different entrepreneurs
and all types of different upsand downs.
I mean, how was that?
How has that changed like youroutlook on, on business?
Yeah, I don't know that it'schanged or significantly in the sense
(21:28):
of.
It's probably more ofreinforce the things I already knew.
So in other words, it wasn'tlike I had this, this great breakthrough
of hey, I didn't realize thisbefore and wow, this is an amazing.
Now I'm sure thatincrementally I learned things along
the way, but it's more of kindof reinforcing the people are getting
started at different stages oflife which you know, gives me the
(21:48):
perspective when I'm doingthe, the legal aspect hearing that,
you know, everybody'soperating on a budget, everybody
is trying to figure out whereto focus and you know, there's always
more things to spend money onthan money to spend.
And everybody is, doesn't haveeverything figured out and has questions
and needs a little bit of explanation.
And kind of hearing this, alot of those things in aggregate
really kind of built that intothe, at least on the law firm side
(22:11):
of building that into how I goabout now explaining things and giving
that different perspective andwalking things people through it
and all that.
And it's probably, I don'tknow if there's any one thing that
sticks out and more of theaggregate of just kind of say, oh,
that's a unique thing orthat's something that I hadn't really
thought about.
And then I'll kind of look tosee how I incorporate that into the
approach that I take on onboth my businesses as well as the
(22:33):
law firm.
Okay, okay, got it.
All right, and so we're new in2025 right now and you've had Miller
IP for quite a while and the podcast.
So what's what, what's newwith you this year and what are,
what are you most excited about?
Oh, I'm excited about a lot.
So I mean on the perspectiveof, you know, the business side,
(22:58):
if I were to say the law firm,you know, is one of.
It's a bit venturing into the unknown.
Everybody talks about AI legalfield is, you know, isn't any, any
less impacted in the senseyou're looking at and saying it can
either be a great tool or itcan be the downfall of all, you know,
all service based businessesincluding or especially if you're
on a computer andpredominantly in front of a desk.
(23:20):
Hey, what's the impact goingto be?
And short answers, I don't know.
But it's kind of been aninteresting iteration as we look
at how to incorporate that inyou know I or I continue to one of
the things I enjoy is I have acouple small family businesses that
I I get to work with my kidsand we started those and are kind
of just some of their stillpretty early stage but that's really
(23:40):
been rewarding.
So 2025 will be continuing tokind of figure out how to incorporate
the kids as I have theirranges 9 to 14 in the businesses
that we're going and teachthem the lesson to give them an opportunity
to learn and grow on theoutside of work perspective.
I'm sure I will do I usuallytry and do about a marathon a year
(24:01):
trying to decide if I'll do anormal marathon or I'm also excited
about maybe trying to do atrail run at least maybe a half marathon,
doing it on a dirt trail anddoing that.
So number of things that aregoing on that'll or should make for
a fun 2025.
Okay.
All right.
And Devin, if people want toget in touch with you and learn more
about your law firm or thepodcast or anything else that you're
(24:25):
doing, what's way that peoplecan reach out to you?
Yeah, so I'll give kind ofthree different ways that they can
reach out to me kind ofdepending on what they're wanting,
how they're wanting to reachout and what they're wanting to reach
out for.
So if they're so we offer free15 minute consultations where we'll
sit down.
It's not going to be an endall, be all, answer every question
but kind of get you kickedoff, get you started, answers a few
(24:46):
questions and you know, givepoints in the right direction.
To do a free consultation theycan go to strategymeeting.com just
like it soundsstrategymeeting.com if they're wanting
to connect with me on socialI'm sure we have social accounts
every or on all the major platforms.
The one I'm most active onpersonally is on LinkedIn so if they
want to connect with me onLinkedIn they can go to meet miller.com
(25:10):
so just meet M E-E-T and thenmiller my last name meatmiller.com
and the last one is that theyjust want to check out the law firm
website.
We have a ton of resources.
Check out the podcast, checkout our flat fees, check out all
of the information we put outthat's just@lawwith miller.com so
strategymeeting.com if youwant to grab a consultation meet
(25:31):
miller.com if they want toconnect with me on LinkedIn and lawwith
miller.com if they want tocheck out the website.
All right, and we'll link allthat in the show notes for everyone.
All right.
Well, Devin, thank you so muchfor taking the time to be here, sharing
this valuable wisdom from yourjourney and.
And all the exciting thingsthat you're doing.
We greatly appreciate it.
(25:51):
Hey, my pleasure.
It was fun to be on, great tobe on, and a great conversation.
So thank you for having me.
All right, and that's all thetime we have for now.
We will see you next time.
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