June 17, 2021 • 49 mins
In this episode, Pen and Harvey talk about their respective anxiety disorders and how they (unsurprisingly) impact literally every aspect of their lives.
Featuring: Anxiety Refresher Course; Pen's good at public speaking, but can't talk about the weather; A diagnosis is not just one thing; Harvey's brain is Minecraft & Pen has some bug reports; Links between anxiety & trauma; Anxiety is a magnifying glass; Sure would be nice if evolution didn't make anxiety so overpowered.
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pen (00:13):
Hello, and welcome to Beyond Introspection
about mental health,neurodivergence, and how it
impacts literally every aspectof our lives.
Harvey (00:21):
All of them.
Pen (00:22):
All of them.
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:23):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:24):
And this week, we're going to talk about anxiety.
Harvey (00:27):
Yep. We decided on this topic approximately three hours
ago.
Pen (00:32):
Yep. Yep, definitely. It's on the list, though. It is on
the list.
Harvey (00:35):
Oh, yes.
Pen (00:35):
Now, it is--I did actually recently put it on the list, but
it was still on there.
Harvey (00:41):
That's what counts.
Pen (00:42):
It does.
Harvey (00:42):
Look, I don't have any concept of time and I know that
you sure as heck don't either.
Pen (00:46):
Oh, my God, no. Absolutely not.
Harvey (00:51):
So, who--who give a--who give a heck? Rene Descartes.
Pen (00:55):
I love that so much. Okay, let's--before we get into a
little bit more of, like,refreshing people on what kind
of anxiety we both am... is...
are... Harvey pointed to me.
Harvey (01:08):
Pen.
Pen (01:09):
Pen. Oh, I mean, Harvey.
That's my name. I mimic.
Harvey (01:14):
Tell me...
Pen (01:15):
Yes.
Harvey (01:16):
...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen (01:19):
Thank you, Harvey. My Wahoo! Moment--I'm going to say
it is that I have made friendswith my new roommate's dog and
cat.
Harvey (01:31):
Yeah!
Pen (01:32):
The dog, Lady, she's a very good dog. She--she was kind of
anxious around me at first, butwe've become good friends. She's
actually on the couch nearby aswe're recording. She's usually
quiet, but y'all might get someambient dog sound, and if so,
I'm very sorry, but there's,legit, not another great setup
that we have.
Harvey (01:51):
No, my apartment is also an option, but my cat is way
louder.
Pen (01:55):
Oh, God, yeah. And then the kitty cat Benji, she's---oh,
Benji's so chill. Benji doesn'ttalk much. She spends most of
her time either on top of abookcase or just wherever,
rolling around like, "Hey, haveyou considered petting me? If
not, I will change your mind."
Harvey (02:12):
And then I can pick her up and hold her like baby, and
she's like, "Okay."
Pen (02:15):
Yeah, she's absurdly chill.
But it's been really niceto--like, I've discovered it's,
um--it's actually part of thereason I've been thinking about
my social anxiety. Because, youknow, I like to not just be
alone, because just being alonesometimes turns my brain into
"No, no, bad, depression, no."
Harvey (02:33):
Horrible, awful.
Pen (02:34):
Awful, bad. But, you know, being around other people is--it
drains my social energy becauseI'm an introvert, and also, I
have anxiety. And just chillingwith Lady has actually helped
that a lot.
Harvey (02:46):
Yeah.
Pen (02:47):
Which is--it doesn't surprise me much, because she's
a good dog, and also happens tobe--like, my roommate has that
emotional support animal, like,letter for her. So you know,
she's--she's good puppy for whenyou're like, [groan].
Harvey (02:59):
Puppy.
Pen (03:01):
What's--Harvey, what's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week?
Harvey (03:04):
My Wahoo! Moment of the Week has to do with you, my
friend.
Pen (03:07):
Oh, my God, me?
Harvey (03:09):
Yes! You!
Pen (03:10):
Whoa.
Harvey (03:11):
Whoa.
Pen (03:12):
Whoa.
Harvey (03:14):
So my birthday--as of recording this, my birthday is
in two days. I'm going to be 21.
So by the time--
Pen (03:20):
Sounds fake, but okay.
Harvey (03:22):
So by the time this is posted, I will be 21 but--
Pen (03:25):
Y'all gotta stop aging.
Harvey (03:27):
I'm sorry.
Pen (03:28):
No, it's okay.
Harvey (03:30):
But one of the birthday presents that I got, and I got
this one early, Pen and some ofour friends who live in the
apartment, my roommate and Pen'sroommate, all pitched in to buy
me a cane. And something that Idon't know if I've mentioned on
this podcast is that I deal withchronic pain, especially in my
back, and I have been using thiscane--I've been wanting to walk
(03:54):
with a cane for a while. I'vebeen meaning to get one for
myself, but...
Pen (03:56):
Which is why it had to be an early birthday present,
because I couldn't very wellhave you get your own.
Harvey (04:03):
So, I've been wanting to walk with a cane just to help
kind of support me, because it'shard to kind of keep my back
straight. And well, now I havethe cane, and it's been great to
use. It's been nice to, like,get around and not be in, like,
horrible pain when I'm done.
Pen (04:22):
That does seem--that seems way preferable.
Harvey (04:26):
Yeah, no. So I'm really grateful for that. Thank you
again.
Pen (04:29):
Yeah, I'm really glad it's been working out. It was well
reviewed.
Harvey (04:32):
Oh, yeah. And yeah, I would say that that is my Wahoo!
Moment of the Week.
Pen (04:36):
Oh, hooray!
Harvey (04:37):
Woo-hoo!
Pen (04:37):
Woo-hoo!
Harvey (04:39):
Wow.
Pen (04:40):
Wow. Jeez.
Harvey (04:42):
That's been today's feedback loop.
Pen (04:44):
It has. That's--well, that's every day's feedback loop
when we hang out. One of usmakes a sound and we're like,
[babbling]
Harvey (04:51):
Like, whoa. Wow.
Pen (04:54):
We actually did that a lot when we took Lady on a little
bit of a walk earlier.
Harvey (04:57):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (04:58):
And there were a couple people out. And you know what?
You can--I think it will be nicefor me to go on a walk with a
dog, because I talk to myselfanyway, and I'm going to talk to
Lady, and people are probablygonna think it's less--like,
I'll draw a little bit lessattention. They'll be like, "Oh,
they're just talking to thedog."
Harvey (05:14):
Yeah. Which like, that makes sense.
Pen (05:15):
Which, I mean, I was gonna talk anyway, but...
Harvey (05:19):
But now you have a puppy to blame it on.
Pen (05:22):
Puppy.
Harvey (05:22):
Puppy.
Pen (05:25):
But yeah, so we're gonna--thank you.
Harvey (05:30):
Sorry!
Pen (05:31):
That was the cane.
Harvey (05:32):
That was--that was the cane hitting against our table.
Anyway...
Pen (05:36):
Let's do a quick refresher course on our anxiety.
Harvey (05:40):
Yes.
Pen (05:41):
For the listeners, not for us. We know.
Harvey (05:43):
No, we--
Pen (05:44):
Intimately.
Harvey (05:45):
Oh, God. We know so, so, so, so well.
Pen (05:49):
You want to go first? Or do you want me to?
Harvey (05:51):
Uh, I can, yeah. So, my diagnoses have kind of floated
around. And--and honestly, sincethe last time I talked about my
anxiety, my diagnoses haveupdated, because I think the
last time I talked aboutspecific anxiety diagnoses was
back in, God, I think our firstepisode.
Pen (06:08):
That would be last August, then. Whoa.
Harvey (06:12):
Horrible, horrible! Anyway...
Pen (06:13):
Oh... I mean, cool, also...
Harvey (06:16):
But also...
Pen (06:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (06:17):
The passage of time, ugh. So, as far as what I am
diagnosed with (06:24):
at this point, I am actually subthreshold for
Generalized Anxiety Disorder,however, that comes and goes in
waves. I would say, probablyright now, I currently meet the
criteria for it. But yeah, thatone, my Generalized Anxiety is
starting to subside.
Pen (06:40):
Woo!
Harvey (06:41):
Right?
Pen (06:42):
That's great, bud!
Harvey (06:43):
Yeah, definitely, I agree. But I'm also--on the flip
side of that, I also do now havea diagnosis of post-traumatic
stress disorder.
Pen (06:52):
Oh, no, bummer.
Harvey (06:53):
Tentatively, it's--it's complex PTSD. But that isn't a
real diagnosis in the--in theDSM.
Pen (07:00):
That's because the DSM is...
Harvey (07:01):
...stupid.
Pen (07:02):
Yes.
Harvey (07:02):
Bad.
Pen (07:03):
Yeah. Um, I was going to go into a cuss, but... no.
Anyway...
Harvey (07:09):
We cannot cuss. Um, so, yeah, I do have a diagnosis of
post-traumatic stress disorder,tentatively, it is complex
post-traumatic stress disorder.
Which, C-PTSD is different fromPTSD in that C-PTSD tends to
refer to repeated trauma, andthat can be either repeated,
severe traumas, or it could berepeated, smaller traumas.
Pen (07:35):
That seems like something that's a very relevant and
important distinction.
Harvey (07:41):
Yeah. And the thing about regular PTSD, so to speak,
is that it results typicallyfrom, like, one excessively
traumatic event.
Pen (07:51):
This is making me think about things, but, well, I have
therapy tomorrow, so you knowwhat? That's fine. It's fine.
Harvey (08:00):
Yeah.
Pen (08:01):
Anyway...
Harvey (08:01):
Anyway. And I also have panic disorder.
Pen (08:05):
Not swag, not epic.
Harvey (08:07):
Not swag, or epic. So then, yeah, those are my
diagnoses. Those are the thingsthat I deal with. Panic disorder
is different from GeneralizedAnxiety. Generalized Anxiety
refers to kind of thisfree-floating anxiety, which
can--which can sometimes looklike--sort of like--like being
anxious for no reason. Like,things can be going perfectly
(08:29):
fine, and then suddenly, youjust are anxious. But
Generalized Anxiety also kind ofcreates, like, amplified
anxiety.
Pen (08:37):
Yes.
Harvey (08:38):
Anxiety that would manifest for somebody without
anxiety normally, you know,like, it's just amplified in
folks with anxiety.
Pen (08:45):
Yeah, like you're worried about a test, or public
speaking, or whatever, andinstead of like, the regular
anxiety than anyone might beused to, is, like, ramped up to
10, instead of at, like, four.
Harvey (08:56):
Right.
Pen (08:57):
You know, depending on how bad it is, but [it] does
absolutely make going throughlife harder.
Harvey (09:02):
Little things can become legitimately crippling. Panic
Disorder, on the other hand,refers to--well, it refers to a
panic attack. And I'm not goingto get into the nitty gritty of
how a panic attack is defined.
There is actually a definitionof a panic attack in psychology,
but I don't find it superhelpful. But a panic attack,
generally (09:20):
the overwhelming sense of dread that something
nondescript is going to happento you. Like, something bad is
going to happen to you. And it'stypically associated with, um,
some, like--some physiologicalresponses. Typically, heavier
breathing, increased heart rate,that sort of thing. Not
(09:44):
explaining that to you, mostlyto the--
Pen (09:46):
No, yeah, totally, like, the trembling.
Harvey (09:48):
Yeah.
Pen (09:49):
Sweating.
Harvey (09:50):
Sometimes nausea in some folks. So panic disorder, then,
is refers to panic attacks thatare brought on by essentially
nothing. And the other hallmarkof panic disorder is that
it's--it's a vicious cycle,because, in panic disorder,
folks who are affected areafraid of having another panic
(10:11):
attack.
Pen (10:12):
Yeah.
Harvey (10:13):
Which can create more panic attacks, which is one of
the issues that I struggle with.
So, in terms of treatment, I'vebeen in and out of
CBT--cognitive behavioraltherapy--since I was 11. And I'm
currently on, like, 200milligrams of sertraline, or
Zoloft, which works both as anantidepressant and an
antianxiety.
Pen (10:35):
Gotta love that love that about SSRIs where it's like, do
you have depression and anxiety?
The answer is probably yes. Ifyou have one diagnosis, you--the
odds that you have both is justvery high. Like, what if you...
it becomes ... serotonin.
Harvey (10:51):
Serotonin and norepinephrine.
Pen (10:53):
Nor... [stuttering]
Harvey (10:55):
Norepinephrine is probably more implicated in
anxiety than serotonin, butthat's just my psych nerd brain.
Pen (11:01):
Harvey brain be like, "I know psychology facts." Pen
brain be like, "Yay!"
Harvey (11:06):
Pen.
Pen (11:07):
Yes.
Harvey (11:07):
Tell me about your anxiety.
Pen (11:09):
Okay. Currently, I don't think I'm, like, technically
diagnosed with generalizedanxiety, or if I am, I don't
think it's accurate. It used tobe. When I was 10, I had severe
generalized anxiety. I feltnauseous constantly, because,
like, I felt guiltyconscious--uh, constantly. And
so then I felt nauseous because,you know, when you're guilty,
(11:31):
you feel, like, sick to yourstomach sometimes.
Harvey (11:33):
Yeah.
Pen (11:33):
To the point where my mom was actually concerned I had an
ulcer.
Harvey (11:36):
Oh, wow.
Pen (11:36):
At 10. So...
Harvey (11:39):
That's very young.
Pen (11:40):
Yeah, it's, uh--it was really, really bad. It was
really intense generalizedanxiety. I've also had social
anxiety for, legitimately, aslong as I can remember, which
sucks. The generalized anxietyand the depression that I dealt
with, I would say, are linkedmore to my ADHD. And then, you
know, generalized anxiety andsocial anxiety can feed into
each other a bit, especiallybecause socializing is a
(12:03):
completely unavoidable part ofexisting, especially when you're
a kid going to school.
Harvey (12:07):
Mm-hmm.
Pen (12:07):
So social anxiety is pretty much exactly what it says on the
tin.
Harvey (12:11):
Yeah.
Pen (12:11):
You are very anxious in social situations.
Harvey (12:14):
And it typically--it stems from a--from a fear of
being judged, right? Generally?
Pen (12:19):
Um, yeah, in some ways. In some--kind of, yeah. Like, worry
that--and you know, I'm workingon my own sort of experiences,
rather than a technicaldefinition, because I didn't
look one up. It stems, kind of,from being concerned--oh, uh,
people say like, "Ah, yeah,don't worry about what other
(12:41):
people are thinking about you,because everyone's probably just
thinking about themselvesinstead of paying attention to
you." And that, you know, is thecase or whatever, but being
hyper aware of yourself andothers. And when I say hyper
aware, I mean, oh, hyper aware.
And, like, freezing up, like,not knowing what to say or do,
either from fear of judgment, orlegitimately just like, you're
(13:02):
so anxious that you don't--like,all of the thoughts that you
would normally have are justkind of gone.
Harvey (13:10):
Yeah.
Pen (13:11):
Which makes it pretty impossible to carry on a
conversation.
Harvey (13:15):
That sounds inconvenient.
Pen (13:17):
It is. So that's my--that's my anxiety is way primarily
social, and then sometimes, youknow, I have anxiety responses
and things from my ADHD andsuch. I have, a couple of times,
had--I mean, I've had panicattacks before. There was a joke
that I unintentionally made lastnight: crying speedrun. I used
(13:40):
to do that. Or I wouldlegitimately have, like, got a
panic attack sort of meltdownthings within the course of,
like, five to 10 minutes, startto finish, little thing.
Harvey (13:50):
And I will say, it's actually not unusual for panic
attacks to resolve that quickly.
Pen (13:55):
Yeah, it was.. it was, uh... anyway, my teenage years
were bad.
Harvey (14:02):
Not--not to say that it wasn't, like, unusual for you.
Everyone has a differentbaseline.
Pen (14:06):
Yeah, it was mostly that I could, like, half control it.
Harvey (14:10):
Yeah. And that's--and that's the really curious thing.
Pen (14:12):
Yeah, it was because I was suppressing all of my emotions
until I could go away tosomeone--somewhere quiet and
alone. Anyway, that's not whatwe're here to talk about right
now. That's for tomorrow intherapy, probably.
Harvey (14:27):
Therapy is good.
Pen (14:28):
Therapy is good. But yes, so, yeah, I've had panic attacks
before, and a couple of timesI've had them where it didn't
seem to be brought on byanything. And I remember
reaching out to you both times,like, "Hey, this is just what
it's like? This is just whatit's like for you sometimes?
This sucks! Oh, my God!"
Harvey (14:48):
Yeah, I think when I told Penn for the first time
that I received a diagnosis ofpanic disorder, they were
really--I was surprised and theywere surprised when I mentioned
"Oh, yeah, I probably have,like, at least one or two panic
attacks a month." And Pen waslike, "That's so many, Harvey."
Pen (15:05):
Yeah, I was like... what?
Harvey (15:06):
Like, what are you--that's--that's like good
for me. Like, because when I wayounger, I was getting panic
attacks, like, every wee
Pen (15:13):
Yeah, that's actually a big... yeah.
Harvey (15:16):
Sometimes several times a week.
Pen (15:18):
Yeah.
Harvey (15:20):
But yeah--
Pen (15:21):
Just, like, as a general basis, no. That's not how often
panic attacks happen when yourbrain doesn't hate you.
Harvey (15:29):
Yeah.
Pen (15:30):
Uh-oh.
Harvey (15:30):
Uh-oh. But you were--you were saying that you...
Pen (15:34):
Yeah, yeah we're--the first one was when I--or, that I
remember, I guess, in recenttimes--was when I started taking
Lexapro, and I restarted myAdderall at the same time, and I
thought that it was serotoninsyndrome.
Harvey (15:51):
Right. I recall that.
Pen (15:51):
Realized, like, oh, no, I think this is--I think this is
Harvey (15:53):
Oh, yeah. Like, it doesn't feel as scary for me
"just" a panic attack that wasnot brought on by anything.
Because, legitimately, just thephysical symptoms of a panic
attack, and then the feeling of,you know, panic, can be really,
really scary when it doesn'thave a clearly defined source.
Like, it sucks when it does hava clearly defined source, bu
then, at least, you know whatit is, if it comes from nowhere
(16:14):
at all, that's--that canbe completely terrifying.
anymore, because frankly, I amused to having panic attacks. I
mean, I have panic disorder.
But, I--the first time you havea panic attack, especially when
it's not brought on by anything,like, you think you're dying.
Pen (16:34):
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I was legitimately like, "Hey, maybe
this is hospital time," andunfortunately, was also COVID
time, so there was a lot of,like, decisions to be made in
when or, like, whether to go tothe hospital, because it was
last May. So you know, hardcoreCOVID times.
Harvey (16:55):
Early start of the pandemic, the--the US had no
idea what they were doing, andfrankly, still has no idea what
they're doing.
Pen (17:02):
No. But, like, hospitals were overcrowded, and there was
also, like, "Hey, is this a riskthat we can reasonably expose
ourselves to?" And I'm sittingover here like, this--I feel so
bad. But "good" news, it was apanic attack.
Harvey (17:19):
Yeah, I actually also--the--one of the first
times I had a panic attack,probably when I was 17, I did go
to the hospital because Ithought I was having a heart
attack. It was a combination ofa panic attack and also GERD.
GERD--
Pen (17:33):
Such a bad...
Harvey (17:34):
GERD essentially being chronic heartburn. Stomach acid
doesn't like to stay in mystomach, um, which is...
Pen (17:40):
No, but that's where it's supposed to live, though!
Harvey (17:42):
Yeah, but it--and then that gets exacerbated by
anxiety, but...
Pen (17:46):
Mm-hmm. But yeah, yeah. So now, I'm going to, like, go a
little bit more into, I guess,kind of why I wanted to--like,
how I've been thinking about mysocial anxiety more. Amd like,
because this is--again, this issomething that I've been dealing
with for, really, as long as Ican remember, which is very
(18:06):
annoying when I think about it,because I think, by all rights,
I should be a very charismaticperson.
Harvey (18:13):
And I mean, you are.
Pen (18:14):
Well, thank you. I think I should be good at talking to
people, because--and this isthe--this is the weirdest, I
think, contradiction in terms ofmy anxiety: I am not afraid of
public speaking, like, at all.
It is not--I'm not--it doesn'tmake me terribly nervous. Like,
kinda nervous, yeah, sure, but Igo up, and, like, my voice
(18:37):
doesn't shake. I remember I wasin, like, oh, gosh, was it in,
like, fourth or fifth grade orsomething? I was fairly young.
And I won some essay contest orwhatever for, like, Veterans
Day. And so I went--had to go infront of the gymnasium and,
like, say my essay, and Iremember nothing about it,
really, except my mom tellingme--this was the first time I
had, like, spoken in front of alarge group of people--that she
(18:58):
was really impressed. Like,"Wow, your voice didn't shake at
all. You sounded superconfident." And I was like, I
mean, my hands were kind ofshaking when I was up there, but
that's cool, I guess.
Harvey (19:09):
And I'll tell you what, that's actually not super
unusual. Public speaking--well,can, and sometimes does fall
within--within social anxiety.
Fear of public speaking istypically categorized as--as a
phobia.
Pen (19:24):
Oh, no, that's what I mean is, like...
Harvey (19:25):
Yeah.
Pen (19:25):
Fear of public speaking is super, super common.
Harvey (19:26):
Oh--
Pen (19:26):
That's what I mean. Like, it is so common, just in
general. It's up there at, like,top three most common fears for
people is public speaking. Andme, debilitating social anxiety
for my whole life, not thatscared of public speaking.
Harvey (19:42):
Well, yeah. And that was my point, that it's not super
unusual for folks with socialanxiety to not necessarily be
afraid of public speaking.
Pen (19:48):
Well, I guess we have that brain cell, so. I imagine it is
kind of related. And certainly,I think part of it is for me,
like, this is a very controlledsituation. I know what I'm
supposed to be doing.
Harvey (19:59):
There are rules to public speaking.
Pen (20:01):
It's so nice when I know the rules. And, like...
Harvey (20:04):
That was your whole major.
Pen (20:05):
Yeah, like, that's, you know, why--part of--a big part
of our like, communicationstudies so much, is it's
learning the rules, and theproblem with social situations
is there's some of them whererules work, and there's some of
them where they don't, and youcan't have it as concrete, and
that causes me no end oftrouble. The thing that really,
really got me was, the otherday--I work at a library. So you
(20:28):
know, patrons come in, and yousay hi and whatnot. Usually, I
don't manage anything other thanthe "Hi," but the other day,
there was, like, a brief--we dida brief conversation about the
weather, which is the mostgeneric thing you can talk
about.
Harvey (20:43):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (20:43):
Though, in the Midwest, it is, like, legitimately a
conversation.
Harvey (20:46):
I was going to say, in the Midwest, we really do talk
about the weather.
Pen (20:50):
Yeah, like legit, because it's absurd. But, yeah. And it
was, like, you know, more thanjust a few sentences. And that
was, like, a celebration for me.
I was like, whoa! That wasreally good for me! And then I
realized that having afew--like, two minutes of a
conversation about the weatherwas really significant for me
(21:11):
because of my social anxiety.
And that kind of put it inperspective for me, like, ohh,
this is bad.
Like, I've had a few--I've had afew moments--like, where I've
been, like, oh, no, this is--oh,this is very bad anxiety. Oh,
no. I am so tongue tied. I justcannot figure out what to say or
(21:38):
how to say it. And I'm lesshyper aware of things than I
used to be, which is why, forme, like, I think my social
anxiety is doing so much better.
Harvey (21:47):
And relatively, it probably is.
Pen (21:48):
Relatively, it really is. I am still at the point where I
can't talk about the weathermost times, because it
just--some of it is that itdoesn't really occur to me, and
this is where my ADHD kind ofcomes in, too, because when
you're neurodivergent, and youjust don't pick up on social
cues, where they don't make asmuch sense to you. Oh, no.
Harvey (22:08):
Yeah.
Pen (22:11):
Yeah, it is--it's bad, Harv. My--my social anxiety is,
legit, debilitating.
Harvey (22:18):
Yeah, and I have gotten that sense from you.
Pen (22:20):
Yeah, it's--oh, God. And it's very--you know, it's
frustrating. Like I said, Idon't--I pride myself on being
good with words. I think I amgood with words.
Harvey (22:31):
I would agree.
Pen (22:32):
And I know I'm a good public speaker. And so it's kind
of infuriating in some ways,like, come on! Come--
Harvey (22:39):
Like, I can't just have a conversation?
Pen (22:42):
Are you serious right now?
Like, I'm good at readingsituations, I'm good at figuring
other people out, I'm a goodspeaker, just in general, I'm
fairly decent with words. And Ican't just speak to people. I
cannot just talk to someone,even very casually. And it's
like, really?
Harvey (23:04):
And that is--that is the irony of fear of public speaking
not always being linked tosocial anxiety.
Pen (23:09):
It's really...
Harvey (23:10):
Like, that does just seem like a massive
contradiction.
Pen (23:15):
But it's, you know, it's because like, in a public
speaking scenario, I know whatthe expectations are. If someone
just wants me to talk, that'sgreat. It's figuring out the
cues of it. It's figuring outwhether or not I should talk,
what would make peopleuncomfortable, especially
because I--and this is somethingwe've talked about before--like,
things that I think areperfectly reasonable to say so
(23:36):
often, in my life, have gotten,like, that expression from
people where they're like,"What? Why would you say that?"
And I'm like, I don't know. Idon't know. I thought it was an
answer to your question.
Harvey (23:51):
Yeah.
Pen (23:52):
Yeah, it's--as my generalized anxiety has gotten
way better over the years, andmy social anxiety is legit
better, it's still justdebilitating.
Harvey (24:04):
Yeah.
Pen (24:04):
Completely. So, do you want to talk about your anxiety,
Harvey?
Harvey (24:10):
Oh, I wasn't sure if you had more thoughts.
Pen (24:12):
I don't... I mean, I think about social anxiety a lot, but
I don't really have--I wish itwasn't like this, and I don't
exactly know how to make itbetter. And I--gosh, there are
so many things I would like todo, you know? Just be social.
Harvey (24:31):
Yeah.
Pen (24:31):
Make friends. More of them.
I'm perfectly happy with thefriends I have, but freezing up
every time, and never knowingwhat to say, oh, oh...
Harvey (24:43):
Yeah.
Pen (24:43):
Oh...
Harvey (24:45):
Yeah, that's--that's always rough.
Pen (24:46):
I should be... [stammering] I have all the building blocks
to be a really, like, friendly,charismatic person, who makes
friends easily, except for thehuge, glaring, just plastered
everywhere, intense socialanxiety.
Harvey (25:04):
Yeah.
Pen (25:05):
Come on. It's just one thing.
Harvey (25:10):
I mean, it's, I mean, though it's a lot of things when
you think about it, isn't it?
Pen (25:14):
It is, it really is.
Harvey (25:15):
That's the thing about mental illness and
neurodivergence, you slap, like,I am not against labeling at
all. I think labels and languageare really, really useful. So
don't get me wrong.
There is something inherentlyreductive about putting one word
to describe an entire set ofsymptomology, especially in the
(25:35):
case of mental health, whenthere really isn't a consistent
way that things manifest.
Pen (25:40):
That is true.
Harvey (25:41):
Anxiety can look so many different ways, depression can
look so many different ways.
Depression can be sadness, andsluggishness, it can also be
irritability.
Pen (25:50):
Yeah. And that is, that is a very important thing to know.
Harvey (25:55):
Yeah, that it's not just, oh, well, it's just my
depression, I can't work pastit. It's like, your depression
is a lot of things. Yourdepression is affecting various
facets of your life. And thesame goes for you, your social
anxiety is a lot of things.
Pen (26:10):
It is. I think that's part of it, is there certain parts of
it that I am getting a lotbetter at dealing with, and that
were reduced significantly, likeeven really early on with the
Lexapro. But there are otherparts that are much harder to
deal with. And those areespecially like, it's getting
easier for me to not worry asmuch about my behaviors.
(26:31):
Like I don't worry as muchabout, like, not being where
other people are, or is it wrongfor me to like, walk into this
place and move this thing orsomething like that, like,
that's gotten a lot better. Butit's still, like, the talking is
really difficult. So from theoutside, it probably doesn't
look that much different. Butpart of that is because I didn't
let people see so much of just -literally just me moving around
(26:56):
and doing things.
Harvey (26:57):
Right.
Pen (26:57):
And that, my friend, does also come from trauma, which -
Harvey (27:01):
Yeah...
Pen (27:01):
- we don't love.
Harvey (27:03):
The common thread through this entire podcast is
that, all this stuff is likelinked?
Pen (27:07):
Yeah!
Harvey (27:08):
Really, none of it is, is...can be separated.
Pen (27:11):
The brain's got all those squigglies like right next to
each other. How are you supposedto bring them out? This is
spaghetti noodles.
Harvey (27:19):
That's a very funny way to refer to neurotransmitters. I
think it would be hilarious ifinstead of just like very tiny
cells and electrical impulses,they were just spaghetti. Just
spaghetti floating around inyour brain.
Pen (27:33):
Throw some spaghetti at the inside of your skull and see
what sticks.
Harvey (27:37):
The answer is probably too much. Although, hm, I think
the inside of your skull is wet.
So maybe it wouldn't. Itprobably wouldn't stick.
Pen (27:46):
Huh?
Harvey (27:47):
Cerebral spinal fluid.
Pen (27:49):
Yeah...
Harvey (27:49):
It cushions your brain.
Pen (27:51):
That's good. I think my brain should have a cushion.
Harvey (27:53):
Yeah, your brain should have a cushion. Because if it
didn't, you'd be dead.
Pen (27:55):
Very glad my brain has a cushion!
Harvey (28:00):
But yeah, I can, I can also talk about my anxiety
because the um - the thing about- kind of mental illness being
deceptively multifaceted, is -is relevant for me too.
Generalized anxiety, I think hasbeen the...has been kind of the
forefront of both my treatmentfor my mental health, and also
(28:22):
just kind of the most difficultthing to deal with in my life,
you know, for as long as I canremember. Which honestly, isn't
that far back, I have concretememories, maybe between like
eight and then years, somethinglike that.
Pen (28:39):
Sorry, I think that's a little bit of a funny thing.
Like when I say about as long asI can remember, I mean, about
like age six. And when you sayas long as I can remember you
mean like -
Harvey (28:48):
Closer to 10.
Pen (28:49):
Which is not funny-haha, but a little bit like -
Harvey (28:53):
It's a little...yeah, it's, I mean, it is a little bit
funny-haha.
Pen (28:56):
But and as we spoken about before, you did sure have
Generalized Anxiety younger than10.
Harvey (29:01):
Yeah, I mean, I know I was in therapy. And like, I have
sporadic memories here andthere. But I know that I have
fewer memories of my childhoodthan is standard. Anyway, that's
not necessarily what I'm talkingabout. I've been struggling with
generalized anxiety for prettymuch my entire conscious life.
And it's changed the way that -it's never really gone away.
(29:23):
Like yeah, my symptoms aresub-threshold, but that's not
always true. And just becauseI'm sub-threshold doesn't mean
that I don't struggle.
Pen (29:31):
Yeah.
Harvey (29:33):
You know, a lot of my life, I would just get anxious
about everything. My base -
Pen (29:38):
Yes.
Harvey (29:39):
My base level was anxious.
Pen (29:41):
Can confirm.
Harvey (29:42):
And it isn't - it isn't so much anymore.
Pen (29:45):
Can confirm that too.
Harvey (29:45):
Now that I'm on meds.
But my base state probably fromthe time I was 13, to the time I
was about 20 was just anxiety. Ialways anxious, always afraid of
something. Everything would getmassive in my head, I would just
make these things absolutelygigantic. And some of the things
(30:05):
that have gotten easier to dealwith. I'm better at taking
criticism than I used to be. I-a lot of my anxieties to revolve
around people disliking me andnot wanting to be around me
anymore. And that's still there,but it's a lot less. I honestly
say - I would honestly say if Ihad to think about it, that
(30:26):
would be the one thing thatimproved the most.
Pen (30:29):
Well, that's wonderful.
I know it's really hard,especially because you're an
artist and - legit, like legit.
It's really, really hard forartists in particular, to
overcome fear of criticism.
Harvey (30:41):
Yeah. And honestly, that's part of why I didn't end
up studying art in college.
Because I was like, Oh, God, Idon't know if I can make a
career out of this. So now it'sjust a hobby, and I post my
silly little drawings onInstagram sometimes.
Pen (30:58):
Whoo!
Harvey (30:59):
Whoo. And my base state is less anxious. However, I
think I am pretty much alwaysanxious, at least a little bit.
It is not hard to set me off.
What is true is that I stillmake things massive in my head.
And anytime something happens,and I just have time to like,
let it fester and just let itbrew...I fall apart. This
(31:21):
happened last night. And it's,that's the really debilitating
part of it for me. The fact thatI can't just take things in
stride like I would like to.
The fact that something badhappens and it just explodes in
my head. Like it is - it getsbad it gets so so so bad.
Pen (31:46):
Catastrophizing, right, that's what it's called?
Harvey (31:48):
Catastrophizing, yeah.
Catastrophizing meaning,assuming the worst case scenario
and imagining the worst casescenario. Sometimes in
catastrophizing, that worst casescenario goes beyond what's
possible. Or even like, or it'slikely, sometimes impossible.
Pen (32:05):
You clip through the wall and go straight into the lava.
Harvey (32:07):
[laughs] My anxiety is Minecraft.
Pen (32:11):
Yeah. Your anxiety is -
Harvey (32:13):
Alternatively a Bethesda game.
Pen (32:16):
Your anxiety turns your brain into Skyrim, and you just
die. In the game, but not inreal life.
Harvey (32:23):
I...Harvey - Harvey LaFord found dead in Miami.
Pen (32:27):
Are they okay?
Harvey (32:29):
Yeah, but they died.
Pen (32:30):
Oh, shoot that actually...the glitching up a
mountain thing in Skyrim. Andthe like, turning, making a
mountain out of a molehill?
Harvey (32:39):
Oh, yeah and my - my Zoloft helps me scale that
mountain in a way that Iabsolutely should not be able
to.
Pen (32:50):
That's the Skyrim glitch.
Harvey (32:51):
The physics are so broken.
Pen (32:53):
[laughing] A neurodivergent brain is such a broken physics
engine.
Harvey (32:58):
Someone needs to do something like make a change log
like, I don't know, man.
Pen (33:04):
God, I have bug reports!
Harvey (33:08):
Todd Howard, please,
Pen (33:10):
Todd.
Harvey (33:11):
Todd. So then other parts of my anxiety. Post
traumatic stress disorder, Ithink as it stands is probably
the number one thing affectingmy life right now. So I'm going
to - I'm going to throw up abrief trigger warning here for
sexual assault, because that ispart of my trauma. So when I was
(33:35):
18 years old, I was sexuallyassaulted by my boyfriend at the
time.
And I don't know what it was.
But there was something aboutthat event that triggered this,
like, flood of every trauma Ihad ever experienced. Like I had
had, you know, I had beendealing with the effects of
trauma kind of unconsciously,but it was after developing PTSD
(33:56):
from being assaulted. You know,that was the thing for a while.
And actually, I don't have toomany trauma responses to that
one anymore, because I actuallygot therapy like right away.
Pen (34:10):
Yeah, I remember that.
Harvey (34:11):
My RA made me - not made me, I asked my RA for help in
getting into therapy. And he waslike, yeah, because he was a
good dude.
Pen (34:18):
Very good dude.
Harvey (34:20):
Gabe, you're - you're a king, love you.
Pen (34:23):
Swag. Swag man.
Harvey (34:25):
Very swag man. But - so I'm actually not too affected by
my assault anymore.
Pen (34:32):
Swaggy!
Harvey (34:33):
But what - what did happen after my assault was that
I started having flashbacks andtrauma responses to other things
that have happened in my past.
Pen (34:45):
Not swaggy.
Harvey (34:46):
Not swaggy. And I'm intentionally being vague about
the kind of trauma I'm talkingabout. Mostly because I don't
know who's going to listen tothis.
Pen (34:54):
Yeah, that's a big mood.
Harvey (34:55):
And I just kind of like, I don't want to stir the pot.
But there were some things thathappened while I was growing up
that resulted in, like, somepretty long term self esteem
issues. And some very deep, deepfears, particularly about being
yelled at. And, and other thingsalong those lines.
(35:19):
We are shaking hands.
Pen (35:20):
We're shaking hands.
Harvey (35:21):
So it has become increasingly clear to me over
the past several months, that mytrauma and my PTSD has been
really influencing the way thatI just function. I'm starting to
just become much more in tunewith, with where my responses to
(35:43):
things come from, where myanxieties come from, why I think
about the world the way that Ido. And I'm realizing that most
of that is tied to trauma that Ihaven't really worked through. I
kind of tried to but thecounselor I was trying to work
through this stuff with reallywas not helpful with that.
Pen (36:02):
Oh, I remember her.
Harvey (36:03):
A lot of it kind of got put on me. I don't think she
meant to. But yeah, she triedher best, but...her best wasn't
that good. And...I was gonna saysomething. So yeah, the big
thing I'm recognizing right nowabout my anxiety is just
(36:26):
realizing how PTSD is creepinginto every element of my life,
which actually does exacerbatemy generalized anxiety, and does
exacerbate my panic. Because I'mso scared of everything all the
time.
Pen (36:44):
You know, I've never really thought of PTSD being
categorized alongside anxiety,though, like -
Harvey (36:49):
It sort of is.
Pen (36:49):
Like it makes a lot of sense. It's just not something
I'd considered, which kind ofrealigns my own
internal...[coughs]
Harvey (36:57):
Based on, you know, I actually don't remember totally
clearly whether PTSD isconsidered an anxiety disorder
in the DSM, but they areconsidered linked.
Pen (37:05):
That makes sense.
Harvey (37:06):
They're sort of considered in the same family
[Pen laughs] of problems thatyou can have.
Beyond Podcast (37:13):
[In unison, laughing] Anyway, anyway -
Harvey (37:15):
Anyway, and sort of this, this most recent round of
trauma, and processing has cameup because I came out to a
family member, as nonbinary.
Pen (37:27):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:28):
And it went horribly.
And things are fine now, really,for the most part, but in the
moment, it hurt so much, and itbrought up so much for me. So
definitely, like I think, Ithink when I think about my
anxiety and my experiences withit...you know, I say that
generalized anxiety was was themost salient and - and in some,
(37:50):
in some ways, I think that'strue.
I think the thing about myanxiety, particularly my PTSD,
but my anxiety more broadly, whyit has affected my life so much
is because it permeates intoeverything.
Pen (38:07):
Yeah.
Harvey (38:08):
Depression affects me in very particular ways. It means
that I have limited energy, andit means that I just often feel
very down. But it doesn't seepinto my life the same way that
anxiety does.
Pen (38:22):
Yeah.
Harvey (38:23):
Anxiety impacts my ability to function on a day to
day basis - as does depression,but anxiety just makes it so
much harder.
Pen (38:33):
I think it's less...like depression causes that fog,
y'know? Depression kind of hasthat effect of sort of dampening
everything. Whereas anxiety canjust be interlaced, interwoven
into you, regardless.
Harvey (38:50):
Yeah. Um, an, you know, the - I mentioned this briefly
in a past episode, but the thingabout anxiety disorders, and
also trauma responses, is thatthe - the more that your brain
has that constant just pumpingof cortisol, which is a stress
hormone, going through your bodyand your brain, your brain's
(39:11):
ability to bring you down fromthat anxious state - the
parasympathetic nervous systemis - is responsible for that -
your ability - your brain'sability to bring you down from
that erodes.
Pen (39:25):
Yep.
Harvey (39:26):
Because cortisoldamages the brain. Like, that's just
straight up what it is.
Pen (39:32):
Is that why deep breathing doesn't do it?
Harvey (39:36):
It - that some of why it doesn't - it doesn't work for
everybody. If you - if you'vehad intense and repeated anxiety
for years, and years, and years,strategies - strategies that
typically bring people down frompanic don't work because your
parasympathetic nervous systemis damaged in certain ways.
Pen (39:56):
Add that to the list of parts of my brain that don't
work.
Harvey (40:00):
Yuh. Um, I think this - this segues pretty well into
some closing thoughts into -like, I don't know if you want
to share any thoughts. Like, Iknow, sort of, where this sums
up for me is (40:13):
my anxiety is so debilitating because it just
permeates and it makes - it'slike a magnifying glass. Anxiety
magnifies the problems that Ialready have that exist, just
makes them worse. Makes them somuch harder to deal with because
that, again, with the stressresponse, you know, you have
(40:36):
fight, flight, freeze, fawn. Iget frozen. I don't know how to
work past it a lot of the time.
Pen (40:43):
Yeah.
Harvey (40:44):
So I don't know if you have any closing thoughts
related to that or unrelated tothat.
Pen (40:48):
Yeah, yeah. So, I spent most of - most of mine talking
about my social anxiety, whichagain, is, like, it is
debilitating. It has beendebilitating. It is crushing and
frustrating.
Harvey (40:59):
Should be noted, I actually don't struggle with
social anxiety, which is a -which is a marked difference
between me and Pen. Continue.
Pen (41:06):
Yes. It is - it is an interesting one, I think. And
honestly, I'm so happy for youthat you don't, because it
sucks.
Harvey (41:12):
And I'm happy that you don't struggle with the kind of
anxiety I do, because thissucks.
Pen (41:15):
Yeah. This is - it is positivity we found there, at
least. Some ways. But yeah, it's- it is frustrating, and it's
also painful in a very, like,conscious way. Like, I am so
aware of what it could be like,maybe, of - of what I could be,
(41:35):
and how that isn't entirelyunder my control, and that
sucks.
Harvey (41:38):
Well, and some of why I think it's so cognitive is
because anxiety is - issomething that is so abstract.
Pen (41:44):
Yeah.
Harvey (41:45):
Depression isn't as much.
Pen (41:46):
Yeah, it's - and you're right, that like, anxiety -
like, everything it is, it is acollection of different things.
It's not just one big thing.
Harvey (41:53):
Right.
Pen (41:54):
And there are so many things that I think I am pretty
good at dealing with moredirectly, and I'm very proud of
that. That's something I've beenable to do in dealing with my
mental illness, myneurodivergence, is, like,
facing some of these thingshead-on. And my social anxiety
in particular, there are so manyaspects of that, that I just - I
(42:15):
can't.
Harvey (42:15):
It's just hitting a wall.
Pen (42:17):
It is. There's - I cannot control all of that. I can work
on it, and I can make somethings better, and meds can help
make some of it easier, butthere are parts of my social
anxiety that I can do nothingabout on my own, and that is,
eternally, an incredibly painfulthing to know.
Harvey (42:37):
Yeah. The - the body's stress response is
evolutionarily - like, this -evolutionarily, this makes
sense. Your body's stressresponse is so overpowering,
because, you know, when we werestill, like, really fending for
ourselves, as humans, we neededthat to stay alive. And now that
survive - just pure survival isnot as much of a concern, that
(43:01):
can create more problems than itsolves. So - I think - I think
from a brain chemistryperspective, that's - that's
some of why anxiety is soparticularly difficult to deal
with.
Pen (43:12):
Yeah. It's - it's sucks.
Harvey (43:15):
It's sucks.
Pen (43:18):
Sometime we're gonna have to do an episode specifically on
trauma, and...
Harvey (43:21):
Oh, boy.
Pen (43:22):
...still be vague in a lot of it, TBH.
Harvey (43:24):
And probably at least one of us is going to cry.
Pen (43:27):
Oh, probably.
Harvey (43:28):
Maybe both of us.
Pen (43:28):
Maybe both. But it is something that, like, I deal
with as well. And, you know, afew times when you were talking,
I made some - some sounds,because, you know, relating, and
it's very, very difficult todeal with. But, yeah, like,
repeated trauma over the courseof your lifetime, permeates
every aspect of your life.
Harvey (43:50):
It rewires your brain.
It really does.
Pen (43:52):
It's - and that's - I thought about it when you were
talking, what a common thing itis. Two things: one of them is,
I have noticed - I've seen,like, both of us getting better
over the course of, like,knowing each other from our
beginning to now. And I thinkpart of that - I know for me,
and I imagine for you as well,is the support network that
we've been able to build. Like,I know me being able to rely on
(44:14):
you now, like, it is a world ofdifference from before, and
things like that. So...
Harvey (44:20):
Yeah.
Pen (44:20):
...just having that, like, understanding in all of it.
Harvey (44:22):
And some of my healing has come from moving away from
my source of trauma.
Pen (44:27):
Yeah, same, same, same, same.
Harvey (44:28):
Yeah. And also, finally learning to prioritize myself
and making decisions that arebetter for me.
Pen (44:37):
Yeah. And then, that it is - it is a thing that, like, some
of the other people we knowmight say, or that we say to
that, but I realized when youwere talking, what a common
thing it is for you and me inparticular, to say, like, "Oh,
yeah, that's, like, a traumathing." It's like, oh, well, you
know, that's - that's justtrauma, in just, like....
Harvey (44:58):
A very casual way.
Pen (44:59):
Just everyday conversations. It's like, oh,
yeah, no, sorry, I can't do thisone thing, or I'm going to need
to change this. Like, can'twatch this show or sorry, I need
you to talk slightlydifferently, or quieter, or
something. And it's like, oh,that's just trauma, don't worry.
Like...
Harvey (45:18):
And it's very palpable when - when you realize that
there are situations where youcan't say that.
Pen (45:23):
Yeah, that's the thing that really...
Harvey (45:25):
That's when it hits you, where it's like, oh, oh, Lord.
Pen (45:28):
Mm-hmm. On the one hand, glad that we have these
situations in which we can justsay, "Ope, trauma."
Harvey (45:33):
Yeah.
Pen (45:34):
On the other hand, oh, no!
Harvey (45:36):
Uh-oh!
Pen (45:36):
Oh, no!
Harvey (45:39):
Put this brain back in the oven, it needs time to cook.
Pen (45:43):
Spaghetti needs to cook.
Harvey (45:46):
Spaghetti needs to be better at being spaghetti.
Pen (45:49):
The! Spaghetti!
Harvey (45:50):
In your brain!
Pen (45:52):
Woo!
Harvey (45:52):
Woo! Okay. Any, like, very last closing thoughts?
Pen (45:57):
No, I think that's - hey, anxiety sucks.
Harvey (46:00):
Yeah, anxiety sucks. If you find - I will say, if you
find, based on my relativelyamateur understanding of
psychology, if you find thatyour anxiety is harder to deal
with than some of your otherissues, at least, as far as I
understand brain chemistry, thatmakes a lot of sense. Also, me,
(46:20):
too.
Pen (46:21):
Yeah, yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep. And if you related to
any of this, once again, asalways, we absolutely encourage
you to - like if research helps,if looking into therapy and
things help, there is absolutelyno shame in that. Dealing with
this is really, really hard.
Everyone who is doing their bestto deal with it, that's great.
And, like, that counts. That'sgreat. And if you are one of the
(46:42):
many people out there who'slike, oh, well, everyone has
some anxiety, it's different.
It's fundamentally different. Ican't talk about the weather.
Harvey (46:54):
Yes. Everyone experiences anxiety, but the
kind of debilitating it becomeswhen you have an anxiety
disorder is not even comparable.
Pen (47:01):
It is not. If you do not understand that because you
don't experience it...
Harvey (47:05):
That's fair.
Pen (47:05):
Happy for you! That's great.
Harvey (47:07):
Yeah.
Pen (47:07):
Do not minimize other people's experiences.
Harvey (47:09):
Yup. And I think that's a good thing to leave off on.
So, stick around for just a fewmore moments, we'll tell you a
little bit more about how thispodcast is run, and our very
cool and epic Patreon.
Pen (47:22):
Woo!
Harvey (47:24):
Oh, woo! Beyond Introspection is an
independently-run podcast by PenNovus and Harvey LaFord. Music
by Girl Lloyd. You can find uson Twitter and Instagram at
ByndPodcast or you can email usat beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com.
That's beyond d-o-t podcast, nospaces. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
(47:46):
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description.
Pen (47:53):
We also have a Patreon. You can find us at
patreon.com/beyondintrospection.
That's all one word. We alsohave links to it on our site and
on our social media. Our podcastis entirely independent, so we
pay for hosting fees andtranscript service subscriptions
out of pocket. This is a passionproject that we're really happy
to do, and any support you'reable to give us would really
make a difference.
On our Patreon, there are fourtiers: $2, which gives you
(48:16):
access to test audio and otherbloopers; $5 which will give you
access to bonus episodes thatwill make in the future, on
topics like how angry we are atFreud, our frustrations with our
respective fields of studies andeven guest episodes; $10 will
get you a direct line andpriority access to request
episode topics and new bonuscontent; and $15, which will
(48:36):
give you access to monthlyAMAs--that's ask me anything for
those who don't know--where wecan answer questions ranging
from the podcast process and wefigure out what to record, more
in depth questions about ourneurodivergences, and more. All
of those tiers will includebenefits from lower tiers of
course.
Harvey (48:52):
Got feedback for us?
Want to request an episodetopic? Just feel like saying
hello? Feel free to reach out onsocial media, or via email. We'd
(49:15):
love to hear from everyone. Takecare of yourselves.
Hello, and welcome to Beyond Introspection
about mental health,neurodivergence, and how it
impacts literally every aspectof our lives.
Harvey (00:21):
All of them.
Pen (00:22):
All of them.
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:23):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:24):
And this week, we're going to talk about anxiety.
Harvey (00:27):
Yep. We decided on this topic approximately three hours
ago.
Pen (00:32):
Yep. Yep, definitely. It's on the list, though. It is on
the list.
Harvey (00:35):
Oh, yes.
Pen (00:35):
Now, it is--I did actually recently put it on the list, but
it was still on there.
Harvey (00:41):
That's what counts.
Pen (00:42):
It does.
Harvey (00:42):
Look, I don't have any concept of time and I know that
you sure as heck don't either.
Pen (00:46):
Oh, my God, no. Absolutely not.
Harvey (00:51):
So, who--who give a--who give a heck? Rene Descartes.
Pen (00:55):
I love that so much. Okay, let's--before we get into a
little bit more of, like,refreshing people on what kind
of anxiety we both am... is...
are... Harvey pointed to me.
Harvey (01:08):
Pen.
Pen (01:09):
Pen. Oh, I mean, Harvey.
That's my name. I mimic.
Harvey (01:14):
Tell me...
Pen (01:15):
Yes.
Harvey (01:16):
...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen (01:19):
Thank you, Harvey. My Wahoo! Moment--I'm going to say
it is that I have made friendswith my new roommate's dog and
cat.
Harvey (01:31):
Yeah!
Pen (01:32):
The dog, Lady, she's a very good dog. She--she was kind of
anxious around me at first, butwe've become good friends. She's
actually on the couch nearby aswe're recording. She's usually
quiet, but y'all might get someambient dog sound, and if so,
I'm very sorry, but there's,legit, not another great setup
that we have.
Harvey (01:51):
No, my apartment is also an option, but my cat is way
louder.
Pen (01:55):
Oh, God, yeah. And then the kitty cat Benji, she's---oh,
Benji's so chill. Benji doesn'ttalk much. She spends most of
her time either on top of abookcase or just wherever,
rolling around like, "Hey, haveyou considered petting me? If
not, I will change your mind."
Harvey (02:12):
And then I can pick her up and hold her like baby, and
she's like, "Okay."
Pen (02:15):
Yeah, she's absurdly chill.
But it's been really niceto--like, I've discovered it's,
um--it's actually part of thereason I've been thinking about
my social anxiety. Because, youknow, I like to not just be
alone, because just being alonesometimes turns my brain into
"No, no, bad, depression, no."
Harvey (02:33):
Horrible, awful.
Pen (02:34):
Awful, bad. But, you know, being around other people is--it
drains my social energy becauseI'm an introvert, and also, I
have anxiety. And just chillingwith Lady has actually helped
that a lot.
Harvey (02:46):
Yeah.
Pen (02:47):
Which is--it doesn't surprise me much, because she's
a good dog, and also happens tobe--like, my roommate has that
emotional support animal, like,letter for her. So you know,
she's--she's good puppy for whenyou're like, [groan].
Harvey (02:59):
Puppy.
Pen (03:01):
What's--Harvey, what's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week?
Harvey (03:04):
My Wahoo! Moment of the Week has to do with you, my
friend.
Pen (03:07):
Oh, my God, me?
Harvey (03:09):
Yes! You!
Pen (03:10):
Whoa.
Harvey (03:11):
Whoa.
Pen (03:12):
Whoa.
Harvey (03:14):
So my birthday--as of recording this, my birthday is
in two days. I'm going to be 21.
So by the time--
Pen (03:20):
Sounds fake, but okay.
Harvey (03:22):
So by the time this is posted, I will be 21 but--
Pen (03:25):
Y'all gotta stop aging.
Harvey (03:27):
I'm sorry.
Pen (03:28):
No, it's okay.
Harvey (03:30):
But one of the birthday presents that I got, and I got
this one early, Pen and some ofour friends who live in the
apartment, my roommate and Pen'sroommate, all pitched in to buy
me a cane. And something that Idon't know if I've mentioned on
this podcast is that I deal withchronic pain, especially in my
back, and I have been using thiscane--I've been wanting to walk
(03:54):
with a cane for a while. I'vebeen meaning to get one for
myself, but...
Pen (03:56):
Which is why it had to be an early birthday present,
because I couldn't very wellhave you get your own.
Harvey (04:03):
So, I've been wanting to walk with a cane just to help
kind of support me, because it'shard to kind of keep my back
straight. And well, now I havethe cane, and it's been great to
use. It's been nice to, like,get around and not be in, like,
horrible pain when I'm done.
Pen (04:22):
That does seem--that seems way preferable.
Harvey (04:26):
Yeah, no. So I'm really grateful for that. Thank you
again.
Pen (04:29):
Yeah, I'm really glad it's been working out. It was well
reviewed.
Harvey (04:32):
Oh, yeah. And yeah, I would say that that is my Wahoo!
Moment of the Week.
Pen (04:36):
Oh, hooray!
Harvey (04:37):
Woo-hoo!
Pen (04:37):
Woo-hoo!
Harvey (04:39):
Wow.
Pen (04:40):
Wow. Jeez.
Harvey (04:42):
That's been today's feedback loop.
Pen (04:44):
It has. That's--well, that's every day's feedback loop
when we hang out. One of usmakes a sound and we're like,
[babbling]
Harvey (04:51):
Like, whoa. Wow.
Pen (04:54):
We actually did that a lot when we took Lady on a little
bit of a walk earlier.
Harvey (04:57):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (04:58):
And there were a couple people out. And you know what?
You can--I think it will be nicefor me to go on a walk with a
dog, because I talk to myselfanyway, and I'm going to talk to
Lady, and people are probablygonna think it's less--like,
I'll draw a little bit lessattention. They'll be like, "Oh,
they're just talking to thedog."
Harvey (05:14):
Yeah. Which like, that makes sense.
Pen (05:15):
Which, I mean, I was gonna talk anyway, but...
Harvey (05:19):
But now you have a puppy to blame it on.
Pen (05:22):
Puppy.
Harvey (05:22):
Puppy.
Pen (05:25):
But yeah, so we're gonna--thank you.
Harvey (05:30):
Sorry!
Pen (05:31):
That was the cane.
Harvey (05:32):
That was--that was the cane hitting against our table.
Anyway...
Pen (05:36):
Let's do a quick refresher course on our anxiety.
Harvey (05:40):
Yes.
Pen (05:41):
For the listeners, not for us. We know.
Harvey (05:43):
No, we--
Pen (05:44):
Intimately.
Harvey (05:45):
Oh, God. We know so, so, so, so well.
Pen (05:49):
You want to go first? Or do you want me to?
Harvey (05:51):
Uh, I can, yeah. So, my diagnoses have kind of floated
around. And--and honestly, sincethe last time I talked about my
anxiety, my diagnoses haveupdated, because I think the
last time I talked aboutspecific anxiety diagnoses was
back in, God, I think our firstepisode.
Pen (06:08):
That would be last August, then. Whoa.
Harvey (06:12):
Horrible, horrible! Anyway...
Pen (06:13):
Oh... I mean, cool, also...
Harvey (06:16):
But also...
Pen (06:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (06:17):
The passage of time, ugh. So, as far as what I am
diagnosed with (06:24):
at this point, I am actually subthreshold for
Generalized Anxiety Disorder,however, that comes and goes in
waves. I would say, probablyright now, I currently meet the
criteria for it. But yeah, thatone, my Generalized Anxiety is
starting to subside.
Pen (06:40):
Woo!
Harvey (06:41):
Right?
Pen (06:42):
That's great, bud!
Harvey (06:43):
Yeah, definitely, I agree. But I'm also--on the flip
side of that, I also do now havea diagnosis of post-traumatic
stress disorder.
Pen (06:52):
Oh, no, bummer.
Harvey (06:53):
Tentatively, it's--it's complex PTSD. But that isn't a
real diagnosis in the--in theDSM.
Pen (07:00):
That's because the DSM is...
Harvey (07:01):
...stupid.
Pen (07:02):
Yes.
Harvey (07:02):
Bad.
Pen (07:03):
Yeah. Um, I was going to go into a cuss, but... no.
Anyway...
Harvey (07:09):
We cannot cuss. Um, so, yeah, I do have a diagnosis of
post-traumatic stress disorder,tentatively, it is complex
post-traumatic stress disorder.
Which, C-PTSD is different fromPTSD in that C-PTSD tends to
refer to repeated trauma, andthat can be either repeated,
severe traumas, or it could berepeated, smaller traumas.
Pen (07:35):
That seems like something that's a very relevant and
important distinction.
Harvey (07:41):
Yeah. And the thing about regular PTSD, so to speak,
is that it results typicallyfrom, like, one excessively
traumatic event.
Pen (07:51):
This is making me think about things, but, well, I have
therapy tomorrow, so you knowwhat? That's fine. It's fine.
Harvey (08:00):
Yeah.
Pen (08:01):
Anyway...
Harvey (08:01):
Anyway. And I also have panic disorder.
Pen (08:05):
Not swag, not epic.
Harvey (08:07):
Not swag, or epic. So then, yeah, those are my
diagnoses. Those are the thingsthat I deal with. Panic disorder
is different from GeneralizedAnxiety. Generalized Anxiety
refers to kind of thisfree-floating anxiety, which
can--which can sometimes looklike--sort of like--like being
anxious for no reason. Like,things can be going perfectly
(08:29):
fine, and then suddenly, youjust are anxious. But
Generalized Anxiety also kind ofcreates, like, amplified
anxiety.
Pen (08:37):
Yes.
Harvey (08:38):
Anxiety that would manifest for somebody without
anxiety normally, you know,like, it's just amplified in
folks with anxiety.
Pen (08:45):
Yeah, like you're worried about a test, or public
speaking, or whatever, andinstead of like, the regular
anxiety than anyone might beused to, is, like, ramped up to
10, instead of at, like, four.
Harvey (08:56):
Right.
Pen (08:57):
You know, depending on how bad it is, but [it] does
absolutely make going throughlife harder.
Harvey (09:02):
Little things can become legitimately crippling. Panic
Disorder, on the other hand,refers to--well, it refers to a
panic attack. And I'm not goingto get into the nitty gritty of
how a panic attack is defined.
There is actually a definitionof a panic attack in psychology,
but I don't find it superhelpful. But a panic attack,
generally (09:20):
the overwhelming sense of dread that something
nondescript is going to happento you. Like, something bad is
going to happen to you. And it'stypically associated with, um,
some, like--some physiologicalresponses. Typically, heavier
breathing, increased heart rate,that sort of thing. Not
(09:44):
explaining that to you, mostlyto the--
Pen (09:46):
No, yeah, totally, like, the trembling.
Harvey (09:48):
Yeah.
Pen (09:49):
Sweating.
Harvey (09:50):
Sometimes nausea in some folks. So panic disorder, then,
is refers to panic attacks thatare brought on by essentially
nothing. And the other hallmarkof panic disorder is that
it's--it's a vicious cycle,because, in panic disorder,
folks who are affected areafraid of having another panic
(10:11):
attack.
Pen (10:12):
Yeah.
Harvey (10:13):
Which can create more panic attacks, which is one of
the issues that I struggle with.
So, in terms of treatment, I'vebeen in and out of
CBT--cognitive behavioraltherapy--since I was 11. And I'm
currently on, like, 200milligrams of sertraline, or
Zoloft, which works both as anantidepressant and an
antianxiety.
Pen (10:35):
Gotta love that love that about SSRIs where it's like, do
you have depression and anxiety?
The answer is probably yes. Ifyou have one diagnosis, you--the
odds that you have both is justvery high. Like, what if you...
it becomes ... serotonin.
Harvey (10:51):
Serotonin and norepinephrine.
Pen (10:53):
Nor... [stuttering]
Harvey (10:55):
Norepinephrine is probably more implicated in
anxiety than serotonin, butthat's just my psych nerd brain.
Pen (11:01):
Harvey brain be like, "I know psychology facts." Pen
brain be like, "Yay!"
Harvey (11:06):
Pen.
Pen (11:07):
Yes.
Harvey (11:07):
Tell me about your anxiety.
Pen (11:09):
Okay. Currently, I don't think I'm, like, technically
diagnosed with generalizedanxiety, or if I am, I don't
think it's accurate. It used tobe. When I was 10, I had severe
generalized anxiety. I feltnauseous constantly, because,
like, I felt guiltyconscious--uh, constantly. And
so then I felt nauseous because,you know, when you're guilty,
(11:31):
you feel, like, sick to yourstomach sometimes.
Harvey (11:33):
Yeah.
Pen (11:33):
To the point where my mom was actually concerned I had an
ulcer.
Harvey (11:36):
Oh, wow.
Pen (11:36):
At 10. So...
Harvey (11:39):
That's very young.
Pen (11:40):
Yeah, it's, uh--it was really, really bad. It was
really intense generalizedanxiety. I've also had social
anxiety for, legitimately, aslong as I can remember, which
sucks. The generalized anxietyand the depression that I dealt
with, I would say, are linkedmore to my ADHD. And then, you
know, generalized anxiety andsocial anxiety can feed into
each other a bit, especiallybecause socializing is a
(12:03):
completely unavoidable part ofexisting, especially when you're
a kid going to school.
Harvey (12:07):
Mm-hmm.
Pen (12:07):
So social anxiety is pretty much exactly what it says on the
tin.
Harvey (12:11):
Yeah.
Pen (12:11):
You are very anxious in social situations.
Harvey (12:14):
And it typically--it stems from a--from a fear of
being judged, right? Generally?
Pen (12:19):
Um, yeah, in some ways. In some--kind of, yeah. Like, worry
that--and you know, I'm workingon my own sort of experiences,
rather than a technicaldefinition, because I didn't
look one up. It stems, kind of,from being concerned--oh, uh,
people say like, "Ah, yeah,don't worry about what other
(12:41):
people are thinking about you,because everyone's probably just
thinking about themselvesinstead of paying attention to
you." And that, you know, is thecase or whatever, but being
hyper aware of yourself andothers. And when I say hyper
aware, I mean, oh, hyper aware.
And, like, freezing up, like,not knowing what to say or do,
either from fear of judgment, orlegitimately just like, you're
(13:02):
so anxious that you don't--like,all of the thoughts that you
would normally have are justkind of gone.
Harvey (13:10):
Yeah.
Pen (13:11):
Which makes it pretty impossible to carry on a
conversation.
Harvey (13:15):
That sounds inconvenient.
Pen (13:17):
It is. So that's my--that's my anxiety is way primarily
social, and then sometimes, youknow, I have anxiety responses
and things from my ADHD andsuch. I have, a couple of times,
had--I mean, I've had panicattacks before. There was a joke
that I unintentionally made lastnight: crying speedrun. I used
(13:40):
to do that. Or I wouldlegitimately have, like, got a
panic attack sort of meltdownthings within the course of,
like, five to 10 minutes, startto finish, little thing.
Harvey (13:50):
And I will say, it's actually not unusual for panic
attacks to resolve that quickly.
Pen (13:55):
Yeah, it was.. it was, uh... anyway, my teenage years
were bad.
Harvey (14:02):
Not--not to say that it wasn't, like, unusual for you.
Everyone has a differentbaseline.
Pen (14:06):
Yeah, it was mostly that I could, like, half control it.
Harvey (14:10):
Yeah. And that's--and that's the really curious thing.
Pen (14:12):
Yeah, it was because I was suppressing all of my emotions
until I could go away tosomeone--somewhere quiet and
alone. Anyway, that's not whatwe're here to talk about right
now. That's for tomorrow intherapy, probably.
Harvey (14:27):
Therapy is good.
Pen (14:28):
Therapy is good. But yes, so, yeah, I've had panic attacks
before, and a couple of timesI've had them where it didn't
seem to be brought on byanything. And I remember
reaching out to you both times,like, "Hey, this is just what
it's like? This is just whatit's like for you sometimes?
This sucks! Oh, my God!"
Harvey (14:48):
Yeah, I think when I told Penn for the first time
that I received a diagnosis ofpanic disorder, they were
really--I was surprised and theywere surprised when I mentioned
"Oh, yeah, I probably have,like, at least one or two panic
attacks a month." And Pen waslike, "That's so many, Harvey."
Pen (15:05):
Yeah, I was like... what?
Harvey (15:06):
Like, what are you--that's--that's like good
for me. Like, because when I wayounger, I was getting panic
attacks, like, every wee
Pen (15:13):
Yeah, that's actually a big... yeah.
Harvey (15:16):
Sometimes several times a week.
Pen (15:18):
Yeah.
Harvey (15:20):
But yeah--
Pen (15:21):
Just, like, as a general basis, no. That's not how often
panic attacks happen when yourbrain doesn't hate you.
Harvey (15:29):
Yeah.
Pen (15:30):
Uh-oh.
Harvey (15:30):
Uh-oh. But you were--you were saying that you...
Pen (15:34):
Yeah, yeah we're--the first one was when I--or, that I
remember, I guess, in recenttimes--was when I started taking
Lexapro, and I restarted myAdderall at the same time, and I
thought that it was serotoninsyndrome.
Harvey (15:51):
Right. I recall that.
Pen (15:51):
Realized, like, oh, no, I think this is--I think this is
Harvey (15:53):
Oh, yeah. Like, it doesn't feel as scary for me
"just" a panic attack that wasnot brought on by anything.
Because, legitimately, just thephysical symptoms of a panic
attack, and then the feeling of,you know, panic, can be really,
really scary when it doesn'thave a clearly defined source.
Like, it sucks when it does hava clearly defined source, bu
then, at least, you know whatit is, if it comes from nowhere
(16:14):
at all, that's--that canbe completely terrifying.
anymore, because frankly, I amused to having panic attacks. I
mean, I have panic disorder.
But, I--the first time you havea panic attack, especially when
it's not brought on by anything,like, you think you're dying.
Pen (16:34):
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I was legitimately like, "Hey, maybe
this is hospital time," andunfortunately, was also COVID
time, so there was a lot of,like, decisions to be made in
when or, like, whether to go tothe hospital, because it was
last May. So you know, hardcoreCOVID times.
Harvey (16:55):
Early start of the pandemic, the--the US had no
idea what they were doing, andfrankly, still has no idea what
they're doing.
Pen (17:02):
No. But, like, hospitals were overcrowded, and there was
also, like, "Hey, is this a riskthat we can reasonably expose
ourselves to?" And I'm sittingover here like, this--I feel so
bad. But "good" news, it was apanic attack.
Harvey (17:19):
Yeah, I actually also--the--one of the first
times I had a panic attack,probably when I was 17, I did go
to the hospital because Ithought I was having a heart
attack. It was a combination ofa panic attack and also GERD.
GERD--
Pen (17:33):
Such a bad...
Harvey (17:34):
GERD essentially being chronic heartburn. Stomach acid
doesn't like to stay in mystomach, um, which is...
Pen (17:40):
No, but that's where it's supposed to live, though!
Harvey (17:42):
Yeah, but it--and then that gets exacerbated by
anxiety, but...
Pen (17:46):
Mm-hmm. But yeah, yeah. So now, I'm going to, like, go a
little bit more into, I guess,kind of why I wanted to--like,
how I've been thinking about mysocial anxiety more. Amd like,
because this is--again, this issomething that I've been dealing
with for, really, as long as Ican remember, which is very
(18:06):
annoying when I think about it,because I think, by all rights,
I should be a very charismaticperson.
Harvey (18:13):
And I mean, you are.
Pen (18:14):
Well, thank you. I think I should be good at talking to
people, because--and this isthe--this is the weirdest, I
think, contradiction in terms ofmy anxiety: I am not afraid of
public speaking, like, at all.
It is not--I'm not--it doesn'tmake me terribly nervous. Like,
kinda nervous, yeah, sure, but Igo up, and, like, my voice
(18:37):
doesn't shake. I remember I wasin, like, oh, gosh, was it in,
like, fourth or fifth grade orsomething? I was fairly young.
And I won some essay contest orwhatever for, like, Veterans
Day. And so I went--had to go infront of the gymnasium and,
like, say my essay, and Iremember nothing about it,
really, except my mom tellingme--this was the first time I
had, like, spoken in front of alarge group of people--that she
(18:58):
was really impressed. Like,"Wow, your voice didn't shake at
all. You sounded superconfident." And I was like, I
mean, my hands were kind ofshaking when I was up there, but
that's cool, I guess.
Harvey (19:09):
And I'll tell you what, that's actually not super
unusual. Public speaking--well,can, and sometimes does fall
within--within social anxiety.
Fear of public speaking istypically categorized as--as a
phobia.
Pen (19:24):
Oh, no, that's what I mean is, like...
Harvey (19:25):
Yeah.
Pen (19:25):
Fear of public speaking is super, super common.
Harvey (19:26):
Oh--
Pen (19:26):
That's what I mean. Like, it is so common, just in
general. It's up there at, like,top three most common fears for
people is public speaking. Andme, debilitating social anxiety
for my whole life, not thatscared of public speaking.
Harvey (19:42):
Well, yeah. And that was my point, that it's not super
unusual for folks with socialanxiety to not necessarily be
afraid of public speaking.
Pen (19:48):
Well, I guess we have that brain cell, so. I imagine it is
kind of related. And certainly,I think part of it is for me,
like, this is a very controlledsituation. I know what I'm
supposed to be doing.
Harvey (19:59):
There are rules to public speaking.
Pen (20:01):
It's so nice when I know the rules. And, like...
Harvey (20:04):
That was your whole major.
Pen (20:05):
Yeah, like, that's, you know, why--part of--a big part
of our like, communicationstudies so much, is it's
learning the rules, and theproblem with social situations
is there's some of them whererules work, and there's some of
them where they don't, and youcan't have it as concrete, and
that causes me no end oftrouble. The thing that really,
really got me was, the otherday--I work at a library. So you
(20:28):
know, patrons come in, and yousay hi and whatnot. Usually, I
don't manage anything other thanthe "Hi," but the other day,
there was, like, a brief--we dida brief conversation about the
weather, which is the mostgeneric thing you can talk
about.
Harvey (20:43):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (20:43):
Though, in the Midwest, it is, like, legitimately a
conversation.
Harvey (20:46):
I was going to say, in the Midwest, we really do talk
about the weather.
Pen (20:50):
Yeah, like legit, because it's absurd. But, yeah. And it
was, like, you know, more thanjust a few sentences. And that
was, like, a celebration for me.
I was like, whoa! That wasreally good for me! And then I
realized that having afew--like, two minutes of a
conversation about the weatherwas really significant for me
(21:11):
because of my social anxiety.
And that kind of put it inperspective for me, like, ohh,
this is bad.
Like, I've had a few--I've had afew moments--like, where I've
been, like, oh, no, this is--oh,this is very bad anxiety. Oh,
no. I am so tongue tied. I justcannot figure out what to say or
(21:38):
how to say it. And I'm lesshyper aware of things than I
used to be, which is why, forme, like, I think my social
anxiety is doing so much better.
Harvey (21:47):
And relatively, it probably is.
Pen (21:48):
Relatively, it really is. I am still at the point where I
can't talk about the weathermost times, because it
just--some of it is that itdoesn't really occur to me, and
this is where my ADHD kind ofcomes in, too, because when
you're neurodivergent, and youjust don't pick up on social
cues, where they don't make asmuch sense to you. Oh, no.
Harvey (22:08):
Yeah.
Pen (22:11):
Yeah, it is--it's bad, Harv. My--my social anxiety is,
legit, debilitating.
Harvey (22:18):
Yeah, and I have gotten that sense from you.
Pen (22:20):
Yeah, it's--oh, God. And it's very--you know, it's
frustrating. Like I said, Idon't--I pride myself on being
good with words. I think I amgood with words.
Harvey (22:31):
I would agree.
Pen (22:32):
And I know I'm a good public speaker. And so it's kind
of infuriating in some ways,like, come on! Come--
Harvey (22:39):
Like, I can't just have a conversation?
Pen (22:42):
Are you serious right now?
Like, I'm good at readingsituations, I'm good at figuring
other people out, I'm a goodspeaker, just in general, I'm
fairly decent with words. And Ican't just speak to people. I
cannot just talk to someone,even very casually. And it's
like, really?
Harvey (23:04):
And that is--that is the irony of fear of public speaking
not always being linked tosocial anxiety.
Pen (23:09):
It's really...
Harvey (23:10):
Like, that does just seem like a massive
contradiction.
Pen (23:15):
But it's, you know, it's because like, in a public
speaking scenario, I know whatthe expectations are. If someone
just wants me to talk, that'sgreat. It's figuring out the
cues of it. It's figuring outwhether or not I should talk,
what would make peopleuncomfortable, especially
because I--and this is somethingwe've talked about before--like,
things that I think areperfectly reasonable to say so
(23:36):
often, in my life, have gotten,like, that expression from
people where they're like,"What? Why would you say that?"
And I'm like, I don't know. Idon't know. I thought it was an
answer to your question.
Harvey (23:51):
Yeah.
Pen (23:52):
Yeah, it's--as my generalized anxiety has gotten
way better over the years, andmy social anxiety is legit
better, it's still justdebilitating.
Harvey (24:04):
Yeah.
Pen (24:04):
Completely. So, do you want to talk about your anxiety,
Harvey?
Harvey (24:10):
Oh, I wasn't sure if you had more thoughts.
Pen (24:12):
I don't... I mean, I think about social anxiety a lot, but
I don't really have--I wish itwasn't like this, and I don't
exactly know how to make itbetter. And I--gosh, there are
so many things I would like todo, you know? Just be social.
Harvey (24:31):
Yeah.
Pen (24:31):
Make friends. More of them.
I'm perfectly happy with thefriends I have, but freezing up
every time, and never knowingwhat to say, oh, oh...
Harvey (24:43):
Yeah.
Pen (24:43):
Oh...
Harvey (24:45):
Yeah, that's--that's always rough.
Pen (24:46):
I should be... [stammering] I have all the building blocks
to be a really, like, friendly,charismatic person, who makes
friends easily, except for thehuge, glaring, just plastered
everywhere, intense socialanxiety.
Harvey (25:04):
Yeah.
Pen (25:05):
Come on. It's just one thing.
Harvey (25:10):
I mean, it's, I mean, though it's a lot of things when
you think about it, isn't it?
Pen (25:14):
It is, it really is.
Harvey (25:15):
That's the thing about mental illness and
neurodivergence, you slap, like,I am not against labeling at
all. I think labels and languageare really, really useful. So
don't get me wrong.
There is something inherentlyreductive about putting one word
to describe an entire set ofsymptomology, especially in the
(25:35):
case of mental health, whenthere really isn't a consistent
way that things manifest.
Pen (25:40):
That is true.
Harvey (25:41):
Anxiety can look so many different ways, depression can
look so many different ways.
Depression can be sadness, andsluggishness, it can also be
irritability.
Pen (25:50):
Yeah. And that is, that is a very important thing to know.
Harvey (25:55):
Yeah, that it's not just, oh, well, it's just my
depression, I can't work pastit. It's like, your depression
is a lot of things. Yourdepression is affecting various
facets of your life. And thesame goes for you, your social
anxiety is a lot of things.
Pen (26:10):
It is. I think that's part of it, is there certain parts of
it that I am getting a lotbetter at dealing with, and that
were reduced significantly, likeeven really early on with the
Lexapro. But there are otherparts that are much harder to
deal with. And those areespecially like, it's getting
easier for me to not worry asmuch about my behaviors.
(26:31):
Like I don't worry as muchabout, like, not being where
other people are, or is it wrongfor me to like, walk into this
place and move this thing orsomething like that, like,
that's gotten a lot better. Butit's still, like, the talking is
really difficult. So from theoutside, it probably doesn't
look that much different. Butpart of that is because I didn't
let people see so much of just -literally just me moving around
(26:56):
and doing things.
Harvey (26:57):
Right.
Pen (26:57):
And that, my friend, does also come from trauma, which -
Harvey (27:01):
Yeah...
Pen (27:01):
- we don't love.
Harvey (27:03):
The common thread through this entire podcast is
that, all this stuff is likelinked?
Pen (27:07):
Yeah!
Harvey (27:08):
Really, none of it is, is...can be separated.
Pen (27:11):
The brain's got all those squigglies like right next to
each other. How are you supposedto bring them out? This is
spaghetti noodles.
Harvey (27:19):
That's a very funny way to refer to neurotransmitters. I
think it would be hilarious ifinstead of just like very tiny
cells and electrical impulses,they were just spaghetti. Just
spaghetti floating around inyour brain.
Pen (27:33):
Throw some spaghetti at the inside of your skull and see
what sticks.
Harvey (27:37):
The answer is probably too much. Although, hm, I think
the inside of your skull is wet.
So maybe it wouldn't. Itprobably wouldn't stick.
Pen (27:46):
Huh?
Harvey (27:47):
Cerebral spinal fluid.
Pen (27:49):
Yeah...
Harvey (27:49):
It cushions your brain.
Pen (27:51):
That's good. I think my brain should have a cushion.
Harvey (27:53):
Yeah, your brain should have a cushion. Because if it
didn't, you'd be dead.
Pen (27:55):
Very glad my brain has a cushion!
Harvey (28:00):
But yeah, I can, I can also talk about my anxiety
because the um - the thing about- kind of mental illness being
deceptively multifaceted, is -is relevant for me too.
Generalized anxiety, I think hasbeen the...has been kind of the
forefront of both my treatmentfor my mental health, and also
(28:22):
just kind of the most difficultthing to deal with in my life,
you know, for as long as I canremember. Which honestly, isn't
that far back, I have concretememories, maybe between like
eight and then years, somethinglike that.
Pen (28:39):
Sorry, I think that's a little bit of a funny thing.
Like when I say about as long asI can remember, I mean, about
like age six. And when you sayas long as I can remember you
mean like -
Harvey (28:48):
Closer to 10.
Pen (28:49):
Which is not funny-haha, but a little bit like -
Harvey (28:53):
It's a little...yeah, it's, I mean, it is a little bit
funny-haha.
Pen (28:56):
But and as we spoken about before, you did sure have
Generalized Anxiety younger than10.
Harvey (29:01):
Yeah, I mean, I know I was in therapy. And like, I have
sporadic memories here andthere. But I know that I have
fewer memories of my childhoodthan is standard. Anyway, that's
not necessarily what I'm talkingabout. I've been struggling with
generalized anxiety for prettymuch my entire conscious life.
And it's changed the way that -it's never really gone away.
(29:23):
Like yeah, my symptoms aresub-threshold, but that's not
always true. And just becauseI'm sub-threshold doesn't mean
that I don't struggle.
Pen (29:31):
Yeah.
Harvey (29:33):
You know, a lot of my life, I would just get anxious
about everything. My base -
Pen (29:38):
Yes.
Harvey (29:39):
My base level was anxious.
Pen (29:41):
Can confirm.
Harvey (29:42):
And it isn't - it isn't so much anymore.
Pen (29:45):
Can confirm that too.
Harvey (29:45):
Now that I'm on meds.
But my base state probably fromthe time I was 13, to the time I
was about 20 was just anxiety. Ialways anxious, always afraid of
something. Everything would getmassive in my head, I would just
make these things absolutelygigantic. And some of the things
(30:05):
that have gotten easier to dealwith. I'm better at taking
criticism than I used to be. I-a lot of my anxieties to revolve
around people disliking me andnot wanting to be around me
anymore. And that's still there,but it's a lot less. I honestly
say - I would honestly say if Ihad to think about it, that
(30:26):
would be the one thing thatimproved the most.
Pen (30:29):
Well, that's wonderful.
I know it's really hard,especially because you're an
artist and - legit, like legit.
It's really, really hard forartists in particular, to
overcome fear of criticism.
Harvey (30:41):
Yeah. And honestly, that's part of why I didn't end
up studying art in college.
Because I was like, Oh, God, Idon't know if I can make a
career out of this. So now it'sjust a hobby, and I post my
silly little drawings onInstagram sometimes.
Pen (30:58):
Whoo!
Harvey (30:59):
Whoo. And my base state is less anxious. However, I
think I am pretty much alwaysanxious, at least a little bit.
It is not hard to set me off.
What is true is that I stillmake things massive in my head.
And anytime something happens,and I just have time to like,
let it fester and just let itbrew...I fall apart. This
(31:21):
happened last night. And it's,that's the really debilitating
part of it for me. The fact thatI can't just take things in
stride like I would like to.
The fact that something badhappens and it just explodes in
my head. Like it is - it getsbad it gets so so so bad.
Pen (31:46):
Catastrophizing, right, that's what it's called?
Harvey (31:48):
Catastrophizing, yeah.
Catastrophizing meaning,assuming the worst case scenario
and imagining the worst casescenario. Sometimes in
catastrophizing, that worst casescenario goes beyond what's
possible. Or even like, or it'slikely, sometimes impossible.
Pen (32:05):
You clip through the wall and go straight into the lava.
Harvey (32:07):
[laughs] My anxiety is Minecraft.
Pen (32:11):
Yeah. Your anxiety is -
Harvey (32:13):
Alternatively a Bethesda game.
Pen (32:16):
Your anxiety turns your brain into Skyrim, and you just
die. In the game, but not inreal life.
Harvey (32:23):
I...Harvey - Harvey LaFord found dead in Miami.
Pen (32:27):
Are they okay?
Harvey (32:29):
Yeah, but they died.
Pen (32:30):
Oh, shoot that actually...the glitching up a
mountain thing in Skyrim. Andthe like, turning, making a
mountain out of a molehill?
Harvey (32:39):
Oh, yeah and my - my Zoloft helps me scale that
mountain in a way that Iabsolutely should not be able
to.
Pen (32:50):
That's the Skyrim glitch.
Harvey (32:51):
The physics are so broken.
Pen (32:53):
[laughing] A neurodivergent brain is such a broken physics
engine.
Harvey (32:58):
Someone needs to do something like make a change log
like, I don't know, man.
Pen (33:04):
God, I have bug reports!
Harvey (33:08):
Todd Howard, please,
Pen (33:10):
Todd.
Harvey (33:11):
Todd. So then other parts of my anxiety. Post
traumatic stress disorder, Ithink as it stands is probably
the number one thing affectingmy life right now. So I'm going
to - I'm going to throw up abrief trigger warning here for
sexual assault, because that ispart of my trauma. So when I was
(33:35):
18 years old, I was sexuallyassaulted by my boyfriend at the
time.
And I don't know what it was.
But there was something aboutthat event that triggered this,
like, flood of every trauma Ihad ever experienced. Like I had
had, you know, I had beendealing with the effects of
trauma kind of unconsciously,but it was after developing PTSD
(33:56):
from being assaulted. You know,that was the thing for a while.
And actually, I don't have toomany trauma responses to that
one anymore, because I actuallygot therapy like right away.
Pen (34:10):
Yeah, I remember that.
Harvey (34:11):
My RA made me - not made me, I asked my RA for help in
getting into therapy. And he waslike, yeah, because he was a
good dude.
Pen (34:18):
Very good dude.
Harvey (34:20):
Gabe, you're - you're a king, love you.
Pen (34:23):
Swag. Swag man.
Harvey (34:25):
Very swag man. But - so I'm actually not too affected by
my assault anymore.
Pen (34:32):
Swaggy!
Harvey (34:33):
But what - what did happen after my assault was that
I started having flashbacks andtrauma responses to other things
that have happened in my past.
Pen (34:45):
Not swaggy.
Harvey (34:46):
Not swaggy. And I'm intentionally being vague about
the kind of trauma I'm talkingabout. Mostly because I don't
know who's going to listen tothis.
Pen (34:54):
Yeah, that's a big mood.
Harvey (34:55):
And I just kind of like, I don't want to stir the pot.
But there were some things thathappened while I was growing up
that resulted in, like, somepretty long term self esteem
issues. And some very deep, deepfears, particularly about being
yelled at. And, and other thingsalong those lines.
(35:19):
We are shaking hands.
Pen (35:20):
We're shaking hands.
Harvey (35:21):
So it has become increasingly clear to me over
the past several months, that mytrauma and my PTSD has been
really influencing the way thatI just function. I'm starting to
just become much more in tunewith, with where my responses to
(35:43):
things come from, where myanxieties come from, why I think
about the world the way that Ido. And I'm realizing that most
of that is tied to trauma that Ihaven't really worked through. I
kind of tried to but thecounselor I was trying to work
through this stuff with reallywas not helpful with that.
Pen (36:02):
Oh, I remember her.
Harvey (36:03):
A lot of it kind of got put on me. I don't think she
meant to. But yeah, she triedher best, but...her best wasn't
that good. And...I was gonna saysomething. So yeah, the big
thing I'm recognizing right nowabout my anxiety is just
(36:26):
realizing how PTSD is creepinginto every element of my life,
which actually does exacerbatemy generalized anxiety, and does
exacerbate my panic. Because I'mso scared of everything all the
time.
Pen (36:44):
You know, I've never really thought of PTSD being
categorized alongside anxiety,though, like -
Harvey (36:49):
It sort of is.
Pen (36:49):
Like it makes a lot of sense. It's just not something
I'd considered, which kind ofrealigns my own
internal...[coughs]
Harvey (36:57):
Based on, you know, I actually don't remember totally
clearly whether PTSD isconsidered an anxiety disorder
in the DSM, but they areconsidered linked.
Pen (37:05):
That makes sense.
Harvey (37:06):
They're sort of considered in the same family
[Pen laughs] of problems thatyou can have.
Beyond Podcast (37:13):
[In unison, laughing] Anyway, anyway -
Harvey (37:15):
Anyway, and sort of this, this most recent round of
trauma, and processing has cameup because I came out to a
family member, as nonbinary.
Pen (37:27):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:28):
And it went horribly.
And things are fine now, really,for the most part, but in the
moment, it hurt so much, and itbrought up so much for me. So
definitely, like I think, Ithink when I think about my
anxiety and my experiences withit...you know, I say that
generalized anxiety was was themost salient and - and in some,
(37:50):
in some ways, I think that'strue.
I think the thing about myanxiety, particularly my PTSD,
but my anxiety more broadly, whyit has affected my life so much
is because it permeates intoeverything.
Pen (38:07):
Yeah.
Harvey (38:08):
Depression affects me in very particular ways. It means
that I have limited energy, andit means that I just often feel
very down. But it doesn't seepinto my life the same way that
anxiety does.
Pen (38:22):
Yeah.
Harvey (38:23):
Anxiety impacts my ability to function on a day to
day basis - as does depression,but anxiety just makes it so
much harder.
Pen (38:33):
I think it's less...like depression causes that fog,
y'know? Depression kind of hasthat effect of sort of dampening
everything. Whereas anxiety canjust be interlaced, interwoven
into you, regardless.
Harvey (38:50):
Yeah. Um, an, you know, the - I mentioned this briefly
in a past episode, but the thingabout anxiety disorders, and
also trauma responses, is thatthe - the more that your brain
has that constant just pumpingof cortisol, which is a stress
hormone, going through your bodyand your brain, your brain's
(39:11):
ability to bring you down fromthat anxious state - the
parasympathetic nervous systemis - is responsible for that -
your ability - your brain'sability to bring you down from
that erodes.
Pen (39:25):
Yep.
Harvey (39:26):
Because cortisoldamages the brain. Like, that's just
straight up what it is.
Pen (39:32):
Is that why deep breathing doesn't do it?
Harvey (39:36):
It - that some of why it doesn't - it doesn't work for
everybody. If you - if you'vehad intense and repeated anxiety
for years, and years, and years,strategies - strategies that
typically bring people down frompanic don't work because your
parasympathetic nervous systemis damaged in certain ways.
Pen (39:56):
Add that to the list of parts of my brain that don't
work.
Harvey (40:00):
Yuh. Um, I think this - this segues pretty well into
some closing thoughts into -like, I don't know if you want
to share any thoughts. Like, Iknow, sort of, where this sums
up for me is (40:13):
my anxiety is so debilitating because it just
permeates and it makes - it'slike a magnifying glass. Anxiety
magnifies the problems that Ialready have that exist, just
makes them worse. Makes them somuch harder to deal with because
that, again, with the stressresponse, you know, you have
(40:36):
fight, flight, freeze, fawn. Iget frozen. I don't know how to
work past it a lot of the time.
Pen (40:43):
Yeah.
Harvey (40:44):
So I don't know if you have any closing thoughts
related to that or unrelated tothat.
Pen (40:48):
Yeah, yeah. So, I spent most of - most of mine talking
about my social anxiety, whichagain, is, like, it is
debilitating. It has beendebilitating. It is crushing and
frustrating.
Harvey (40:59):
Should be noted, I actually don't struggle with
social anxiety, which is a -which is a marked difference
between me and Pen. Continue.
Pen (41:06):
Yes. It is - it is an interesting one, I think. And
honestly, I'm so happy for youthat you don't, because it
sucks.
Harvey (41:12):
And I'm happy that you don't struggle with the kind of
anxiety I do, because thissucks.
Pen (41:15):
Yeah. This is - it is positivity we found there, at
least. Some ways. But yeah, it's- it is frustrating, and it's
also painful in a very, like,conscious way. Like, I am so
aware of what it could be like,maybe, of - of what I could be,
(41:35):
and how that isn't entirelyunder my control, and that
sucks.
Harvey (41:38):
Well, and some of why I think it's so cognitive is
because anxiety is - issomething that is so abstract.
Pen (41:44):
Yeah.
Harvey (41:45):
Depression isn't as much.
Pen (41:46):
Yeah, it's - and you're right, that like, anxiety -
like, everything it is, it is acollection of different things.
It's not just one big thing.
Harvey (41:53):
Right.
Pen (41:54):
And there are so many things that I think I am pretty
good at dealing with moredirectly, and I'm very proud of
that. That's something I've beenable to do in dealing with my
mental illness, myneurodivergence, is, like,
facing some of these thingshead-on. And my social anxiety
in particular, there are so manyaspects of that, that I just - I
(42:15):
can't.
Harvey (42:15):
It's just hitting a wall.
Pen (42:17):
It is. There's - I cannot control all of that. I can work
on it, and I can make somethings better, and meds can help
make some of it easier, butthere are parts of my social
anxiety that I can do nothingabout on my own, and that is,
eternally, an incredibly painfulthing to know.
Harvey (42:37):
Yeah. The - the body's stress response is
evolutionarily - like, this -evolutionarily, this makes
sense. Your body's stressresponse is so overpowering,
because, you know, when we werestill, like, really fending for
ourselves, as humans, we neededthat to stay alive. And now that
survive - just pure survival isnot as much of a concern, that
(43:01):
can create more problems than itsolves. So - I think - I think
from a brain chemistryperspective, that's - that's
some of why anxiety is soparticularly difficult to deal
with.
Pen (43:12):
Yeah. It's - it's sucks.
Harvey (43:15):
It's sucks.
Pen (43:18):
Sometime we're gonna have to do an episode specifically on
trauma, and...
Harvey (43:21):
Oh, boy.
Pen (43:22):
...still be vague in a lot of it, TBH.
Harvey (43:24):
And probably at least one of us is going to cry.
Pen (43:27):
Oh, probably.
Harvey (43:28):
Maybe both of us.
Pen (43:28):
Maybe both. But it is something that, like, I deal
with as well. And, you know, afew times when you were talking,
I made some - some sounds,because, you know, relating, and
it's very, very difficult todeal with. But, yeah, like,
repeated trauma over the courseof your lifetime, permeates
every aspect of your life.
Harvey (43:50):
It rewires your brain.
It really does.
Pen (43:52):
It's - and that's - I thought about it when you were
talking, what a common thing itis. Two things: one of them is,
I have noticed - I've seen,like, both of us getting better
over the course of, like,knowing each other from our
beginning to now. And I thinkpart of that - I know for me,
and I imagine for you as well,is the support network that
we've been able to build. Like,I know me being able to rely on
(44:14):
you now, like, it is a world ofdifference from before, and
things like that. So...
Harvey (44:20):
Yeah.
Pen (44:20):
...just having that, like, understanding in all of it.
Harvey (44:22):
And some of my healing has come from moving away from
my source of trauma.
Pen (44:27):
Yeah, same, same, same, same.
Harvey (44:28):
Yeah. And also, finally learning to prioritize myself
and making decisions that arebetter for me.
Pen (44:37):
Yeah. And then, that it is - it is a thing that, like, some
of the other people we knowmight say, or that we say to
that, but I realized when youwere talking, what a common
thing it is for you and me inparticular, to say, like, "Oh,
yeah, that's, like, a traumathing." It's like, oh, well, you
know, that's - that's justtrauma, in just, like....
Harvey (44:58):
A very casual way.
Pen (44:59):
Just everyday conversations. It's like, oh,
yeah, no, sorry, I can't do thisone thing, or I'm going to need
to change this. Like, can'twatch this show or sorry, I need
you to talk slightlydifferently, or quieter, or
something. And it's like, oh,that's just trauma, don't worry.
Like...
Harvey (45:18):
And it's very palpable when - when you realize that
there are situations where youcan't say that.
Pen (45:23):
Yeah, that's the thing that really...
Harvey (45:25):
That's when it hits you, where it's like, oh, oh, Lord.
Pen (45:28):
Mm-hmm. On the one hand, glad that we have these
situations in which we can justsay, "Ope, trauma."
Harvey (45:33):
Yeah.
Pen (45:34):
On the other hand, oh, no!
Harvey (45:36):
Uh-oh!
Pen (45:36):
Oh, no!
Harvey (45:39):
Put this brain back in the oven, it needs time to cook.
Pen (45:43):
Spaghetti needs to cook.
Harvey (45:46):
Spaghetti needs to be better at being spaghetti.
Pen (45:49):
The! Spaghetti!
Harvey (45:50):
In your brain!
Pen (45:52):
Woo!
Harvey (45:52):
Woo! Okay. Any, like, very last closing thoughts?
Pen (45:57):
No, I think that's - hey, anxiety sucks.
Harvey (46:00):
Yeah, anxiety sucks. If you find - I will say, if you
find, based on my relativelyamateur understanding of
psychology, if you find thatyour anxiety is harder to deal
with than some of your otherissues, at least, as far as I
understand brain chemistry, thatmakes a lot of sense. Also, me,
(46:20):
too.
Pen (46:21):
Yeah, yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep. And if you related to
any of this, once again, asalways, we absolutely encourage
you to - like if research helps,if looking into therapy and
things help, there is absolutelyno shame in that. Dealing with
this is really, really hard.
Everyone who is doing their bestto deal with it, that's great.
And, like, that counts. That'sgreat. And if you are one of the
(46:42):
many people out there who'slike, oh, well, everyone has
some anxiety, it's different.
It's fundamentally different. Ican't talk about the weather.
Harvey (46:54):
Yes. Everyone experiences anxiety, but the
kind of debilitating it becomeswhen you have an anxiety
disorder is not even comparable.
Pen (47:01):
It is not. If you do not understand that because you
don't experience it...
Harvey (47:05):
That's fair.
Pen (47:05):
Happy for you! That's great.
Harvey (47:07):
Yeah.
Pen (47:07):
Do not minimize other people's experiences.
Harvey (47:09):
Yup. And I think that's a good thing to leave off on.
So, stick around for just a fewmore moments, we'll tell you a
little bit more about how thispodcast is run, and our very
cool and epic Patreon.
Pen (47:22):
Woo!
Harvey (47:24):
Oh, woo! Beyond Introspection is an
independently-run podcast by PenNovus and Harvey LaFord. Music
by Girl Lloyd. You can find uson Twitter and Instagram at
ByndPodcast or you can email usat beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com.
That's beyond d-o-t podcast, nospaces. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
(47:46):
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description.
Pen (47:53):
We also have a Patreon. You can find us at
patreon.com/beyondintrospection.
That's all one word. We alsohave links to it on our site and
on our social media. Our podcastis entirely independent, so we
pay for hosting fees andtranscript service subscriptions
out of pocket. This is a passionproject that we're really happy
to do, and any support you'reable to give us would really
make a difference.
On our Patreon, there are fourtiers: $2, which gives you
(48:16):
access to test audio and otherbloopers; $5 which will give you
access to bonus episodes thatwill make in the future, on
topics like how angry we are atFreud, our frustrations with our
respective fields of studies andeven guest episodes; $10 will
get you a direct line andpriority access to request
episode topics and new bonuscontent; and $15, which will
(48:36):
give you access to monthlyAMAs--that's ask me anything for
those who don't know--where wecan answer questions ranging
from the podcast process and wefigure out what to record, more
in depth questions about ourneurodivergences, and more. All
of those tiers will includebenefits from lower tiers of
course.
Harvey (48:52):
Got feedback for us?
Want to request an episodetopic? Just feel like saying
hello? Feel free to reach out onsocial media, or via email. We'd
(49:15):
love to hear from everyone. Takecare of yourselves.
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