BEYOND Basics - Autism - Beyond Introspection: A Podcast About Neurodivergence & Identity

Episode Transcript
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Pen (00:12):
Welcome to Beyond Introspection
we talk about mental health,neurodivergence, and how it
impacts literally every aspectof our lives.

Harvey (00:18):
[Distantly] All of them!

Pen (00:20):
I'm Pen.

Harvey (00:21):
And I'm Harvey.

Pen (00:22):
And this episode, we're going to be talking about
autism. It's gonna be led byHarvey, like how the last
episode was led by me. And thisone, we're sorry it's coming out
a little bit late. We'rererecording the entire thing.

Harvey (00:35):
This is actually the second time that we've sat down
to do this episode.

Pen (00:39):
Yeah, we had some audio issues. And in trying to edit
it, I gave myself a sensorymeltdown because it was so bad.

Harvey (00:45):
And that is not the goal of our podcast. So we thought,
you know what?

Pen (00:48):
A little bit antithetical to that.

Harvey (00:51):
I would say more than a little bit antithetical.

Pen (00:53):
A lot a bit antithetical.

Harvey (00:55):
I will say, the reason why Pen was giggling at the
beginning is when I said, "allof them," you might have been
able to guess, I fully turned myhead away from the microphone.

Pen (01:02):
Yeah. Like, the echo in the kitchen behind you was pretty
impressive.

Harvey (01:08):
It was pretty good. So hopefully that turns out good.

Pen (01:10):
I think it-- I think it will.

Harvey (01:12):
Epic. So, before we get started with a conversation
about autism, Pen...

Pen (01:19):
Harvey.

Harvey (01:20):
How well do you remember this past week?

Pen (01:23):
I mean, I don't remember--as soon as you prompt
me to try and remember a periodof time, it's completely erased,
but I did actually already havesomething prepped for this.

Harvey (01:32):
Great. So we're introducing a new segment into
this podcast called the Wahoo-er, sorry, the [excitedly]
Wahoo! Moment of the Week.

Pen (01:39):
Yay!

Harvey (01:39):
Pen was gonna call me on and if I didn't say it.

Pen (01:41):
I wasn't going to call you on it. I was going to request
it.

Harvey (01:44):
Same difference. Anyway, so basically, we're just going
to take a little bit of time atthe beginning of each episode to
talk about something nice thathappened to us this week.

Pen (01:54):
Something that made us go, "wahoo!"

Harvey (01:56):
Wahoo!

Pen (01:57):
Because, well, you know, nice things are cool and good,
and we are stressed out,neurodivergent people. Focusing
on nice things is very good forus, or so my therapist tells me,
and I already knew, but Ithought that was a funny joke.
Anyway, I've been watching ashow, because my little brother
likes it.

Harvey (02:16):
As well as my boyfriend.

Pen (02:19):
Yeah, I remember learning that. I was like, "Oh, okay,
that's cool." But yeah, Ipromised him I would watch it,
and then took way too long toactually get around to it. I
blame several things, includingADHD. Really hard to get into
new media. It's called Hilda,it's on Netflix, and it's really
really, really good. I've been--

Harvey (02:38):
It's British, right?

Pen (02:39):
It's--it's Canadian, actually. I think
American-Canadian. It'sextremely good, and I'm very
into it. And I've been doing my,like--my thing where anything I
enjoy, I immediately just gointo, like, meta analysis. I've
been like gushing over--like thewriting is really good,
absolutely love the art style,so it's been really great to

(03:01):
watch this and, you know, dosomething that I know will make
my little brother happy, becauseI love him very, very much. But
also to discover a show that,like, excites me.

Harvey (03:12):
Yeah.

Pen (03:15):
What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week, Harvey?

Harvey (03:18):
Yeah, I feel bad because I did this last episode, too,
where I wasn't entirely sure.
Because frankly, I mean, I'mgonna be honest, this week has
been kind of the opposite ofwahoo.

Pen (03:28):
Oh, no.

Harvey (03:29):
An "oowah," if you will.

Pen (03:32):
I will.

Harvey (03:34):
Yeah, I've been really stressed out. I'm trying to
think of something good that hashappened. Um, the place that I'm
trying to get top surgery atcalled me and
is--they're--they're willing toset up a consultation with me,
the only caveat being that Ineed to get two letters of

(03:56):
readiness, because the Americanhealth system is garbage. Like
I've been wanting to get topsurgery for five years, and you
need a letter saying that Iunderstand the ramifications?
Okay.

Pen (04:08):
Yeah, the health care system along with being
inherently ablest is so muchinherently transphobic.

Harvey (04:14):
Yeah, so that's--that's cool. But, um, I would say--I
would say that is my WahooMoment of the Week.

Pen (04:21):
It is pretty cash money that you're finally gonna be
able to start on that process.

Harvey (04:24):
Titty chop.

Pen (04:27):
Yes, thank you, Harvey.

Harvey (04:28):
Are we gonna--are we--is that--

Pen (04:29):
I don't--I--you know what?
I'm just gonna leave it there. Idon't think there's any way
to--I'm not gonna bleep out--itwould be way worse, I think.

Harvey (04:40):
That's fair. Oh, dear, I'm getting way too lax with
this. All right.

Pen (04:45):
Ah, it's fine. [Pen and Harvey groan at each other]
Anyway.

Harvey (04:50):
Anyway, we're both neurodivergent. So, yeah, we're
gonna talk about autism. Andmuch like Pen led a discussion
on ADHD, because they have ADHDand I don't, we're gonna talk
about autism. I'm gonna leadthat discussion because I
probably have autism, and youmost certainly do not.

Pen (05:09):
I do not have autism, no.

Harvey (05:11):
So, something that I want to preface this with is
that, like, I don't actuallyhave a formal diagnosis, and
there's a couple of reasons forthat. Some of that is, depending
on which clinician I talk to,they really go back and forth on
whether I'm autistic or whetherI'm not, which is not very swag,
but--

Pen (05:31):
No, it's not cash money of them to be playing into
stereotypes and biases.

Harvey (05:35):
No, and we'll get into some of those. But yeah,
it's--it's complicated.

Pen (05:42):
Relationship status with autism

Harvey (05:46):
Yeah, on Facebook. Geez.
Um, the other reason is thatI--because of how everything in
society works, if you do haveautism, sometimes that can make
it harder to find jobs becauseof ableism and employment
discrimination.

Pen (06:06):
Or adopt, or do things, like living.

Harvey (06:11):
Yeah, and, frankly, like, yeah, it would probably be
useful for me to be diagnosed insome ways. In other ways, it's
better that I'm not, so I'm justgoing to keep on doing that.
Just assuming that I have autismand never seeking the diagnosis
for practical reasons.

Pen (06:29):
Gonna dismantle society, board by board, brick by brick,
podcast by podcast.

Harvey (06:37):
I'm gonna bite.

Pen (06:48):
[Pen laughs] So tell me about autism, Harvey.

Harvey (06:50):
Sure! Can do. So I think I want to open this discussion
with a conversation about autismand race. I'm not gonna make you
do this again, because the lasttime we recorded, I asked them,
like, "Hey, what do you think ofwhen you think of an autistic
person?" But I think I willencourage you, the listeners, to
take a moment to just thinkabout what you think you see.

(07:13):
And, you know, I'm just gonnakeep talking, but think about
it. And most of the time, when Iask people that question, they
think of, like, a young whitekid, probably middle class,
probably a boy. So you know, asmattering of all these things.
But, you know, this goes withoutsaying, autism is not just a

(07:33):
white people thing.
Unfortunately, the narrativesconstructed around it and what
we think is Autism is verywhite. That intersection is an
issue. So I did want to juststart this with a very explicit
discussion about autism and, youknow, marginalized racial
identities. So--so just ingeneral, Hispanic and Black

(07:55):
children are significantly lesslikely to be diagnosed with
autism than are white children.
And--and I should say, also, I'mgoing to be talking about
children through a lot of thisbecause--there's two reasons.
One, because I'm primarilyinterested in child and
adolescent psych, so most of mybase knowledge and the way that

(08:17):
I talk about psych is centeredaround kids. And also, the
wealth of knowledge that we haveabout autism is about children.
There's not a whole lot aboutautistic adults. So...

Pen (08:27):
Yeah, that's--that is, uh, a not uncommon thread in
research about neurodivergence,I think, particularly, like,
autism and ADHD, where it'slike, oh, this is for children.

Harvey (08:41):
Yeah. And it's--it's not.

Pen (08:42):
No.

Harvey (08:43):
Many people don't get diagnosed with ADHD or autism
until they are adults, such asin your case, where you weren't
diagnosed until you were, what,20?

Pen (08:51):
Yeah, and--but it's not the narrative that we understand it
as. We--we think of children. Wethink of, like, seven year olds.

Harvey (08:58):
Right. So just keep in mind as I'm talking to this, I'm
gonna say children a lot,because that's where my
knowledge lies. There areautistic adults. Hello, hi! They
are like you. Some of themaren't like you.

Pen (09:12):
Some of them are you.

Harvey (09:14):
Yep! That's a good addendum. So, yeah, Hispanic and
Black children, significantlyless likely to be diagnosed, and
there's a couple reasons forthat. There is, of course, just
bias in the medical system thattends to dismiss the concerns of
parents of color, particularlyBlack parents. There's also

(09:36):
racial--marginalized--folks whohold--blugh. Folks who hold
marginalized racial identitiesare also significantly more
likely to be, you know,economically disadvantaged
because of, you know, societaleverything.

Pen (09:51):
Yeah, because of fundamental racism in society.

Harvey (09:54):
Because we live in a society. And this is something
that I like to bring up, becausenot--not only does it shock
people, but it's also importantto bring up. So, Black autistic
children are 5.4 times morelikely to be
diagnosed--misdiagnosed with abehavioral problem than white
children before they arediagnosed with autism. So we're

(10:15):
talking about things likeconduct disorder, and you know,
just general, like, disobeyingparents, possibly acting out,
being violent, which are thingsthat can manifest in some forms
of autism. Sometimes it doeslook like--sometimes it does
look like being a littleviolent. Most of the time, it
doesn't, but sometimes there isthat lashing out component. In
Black children that issignificantly more--more likely

(10:37):
to be perceived as just abehavior problem rather than a
greater issue.

Pen (10:44):
Rather than neurodivergence, and a
fundamentally different brainthat, especially when you're
being pushed and put insituations that are
uncomfortable and activelyharmful for you by adults who
are racist, fundamentally, goingto push you beyond your limits
and make it harder to rein inyour instinctive responses,
which might be meltdowns.

Harvey (11:06):
Yeah.

Pen (11:08):
Yeah, sorry, I have feelings.

Harvey (11:10):
No, no, you're absolutely right to bring it up.
So, and--you know, this is--thisis something that I feel is
important to bring up, because,you know, I'm white, so there
are some very typical ways inwhich, you know--I'm kind of the
typical model for autism. I'mwhite and I appear masculine.
The part where it gets a littlemessy is that, like, to most
people, I don't lookneurodivergent or act

(11:32):
neurodivergent, except aroundother neurodivergent people, and
they're like, "Oh!"

Pen (11:36):
Yeah, that's a--that's a thing for--that's definitely a,
like, oh, your brain is--okay.
All right. Okay, cool, cool,cool.

Harvey (11:43):
Yeah, but, you know, with me being white, I benefit
from those systems of privilege.
And it means thatm to someextent, I internalize them, so
part of my job as a white personto unlearn that is to actively
talk about these things andraise awareness, not only for
myself, but also other people.

Pen (12:02):
Yeah. And in the first recording we did, you asked me
to think of--like, to describewhat I thought of when I thought
autistic child. And I did, like,think of a white child. And I
said, like, I think that that'ssomething that's probably likely
to happen anytime I'm told tothink of a child, I'm probably
going to think white, until, youknow, this unlearning process.

(12:26):
So I think it's very useful tobring up, and sometime in the
future, I should revisit somethings on ADHD, both because,
like, you can bet I have morethings to say, and because I
didn't include anything on ADHDand race, but I've definitely
come across some things.

Harvey (12:39):
Yeah. So the reason why I wanted to bring that up to
start is I think that'ssomething that is important to
recognize when we're having anyconversation about autism, that
our knowledge base is largelyabout white, typically male
children,.AMAB, like, you know,cis boy, as far as we know,
children. So that's something Iwant to bring up, and that's

(13:00):
probably something that we'regoing to see pop up
concurrently-- r, notconcurrently, like,
consistently, throughout theepisode.

Pen (13:06):
Definitely.

Harvey (13:07):
But with that, I know this isn't, like, an intro, but
we can--I do want to give abroad overview of autism, and
this --this information issomething I pulled from the
Autism Self Advocacy Network.

Pen (13:18):
That's good.

Harvey (13:19):
Yes. You said the exact same thing first episode.

Pen (13:22):
Well, you know, the other well known organization...

Harvey (13:26):
You can say Autism Speaks, it's okay.

Pen (13:27):
Yeah, exactly. Autism Speaks.

Harvey (13:29):
Autism Speaks as a terrible organization. We'll get
into why later. But Autism SelfAdvocacy Network, or ASAN,
A-SAN? I don't know. But that'sa much better one.

Pen (13:39):
Yeah. It's almost like autistic people being able to
lead the conversation themselvesis beneficial for conversation
at large.

Harvey (13:46):
That's wild, isn't it?

Pen (13:48):
Yep.

Harvey (13:50):
Pen just gave me the blankest stare when I said that.

Pen (13:53):
Anyway, Harvey, talk.

Harvey (13:55):
Sure. So ASAN provides these sort of six components of
what sets autistic people apartfrom allistic people. And if
you've never heard the termallistic before, it is basically
just non autistic. Butit--it's--creating language for
it means that it's not "normalpeople and autistic people."

(14:16):
It's kind of like cis and trans.

Pen (14:18):
Yeah, definitely, and I think very useful in, like, not
just saying, like, autisticpeople, and then people who
aren't neurodivergent

Harvey (14:24):
Which--right.
Like, there is a lot ofdifference.
Because you are neurodivergent,but you're also allistic.

Pen (14:29):
Yeah. Like there's fundamental differences still.

Harvey (14:32):
Yes, yes. So they bring up these--these six points that
talk about how autistic peoplediffer from allistic people. And
this is probably the mostsurface level thing I could
possibly say, but one is that wethink differently, just straight
up.

Pen (14:49):
Different brain be like

Harvey (14:52):
Yeah, good job. I love you, Pen.

Pen (14:56):
I love you too, Harvey.

Harvey (14:58):
So there--and this is something that we've touched on
quite a bit over the--over thecourse of Beyond Introspection,
so I'm not going to spend toolong on this. But there is, of
course, the executivedysfunction thing, which we've
talked about in severalepisodes. In ADHD--in

BEYOND--BEYOND Basics (15:17):
ADHD and BEing Depressed. Both of those I
remember brought up executivedysfunction. So if you're not
familiar, I would recommend thatyou go listen to those. The ADHD
episode is a very good one. Um,so yeah, there's--there is that.
Executive dysfunction means thatit's quite difficult--for me,

(15:39):
it's--it's--I struggle withdoing things that bother my
sensory. And unfortunately, whatthis means for me is that
sometimes I struggle withpersonal hygiene. That's--I
know, Pen, you're not crazyabout it when I shave my beard
off, but some of why I do it isbecause having the beard can be
a little bit unfortunate, forme, sensory wise, especially if

(16:00):
it's been around for a while, sosometimes it is legitimately
very comfortable for me to shaveit all off and let it grow back
fresh.

Pen (16:07):
Well, um, hey, I'm glad that you do that for yourself.
Because, like, you know, manyreasons. First and foremost
being I have no say over whatyou do with your body, and I
support whatever decisions youmake with it.

Harvey (16:18):
That's true.

Pen (16:18):
Yeah.

Harvey (16:19):
Yeah.

Pen (16:19):
Yeah.

Harvey (16:21):
So there's that. And then also, we--many of us folks
with autism have--have specialinterests. And special interests
are--the way that I woulddescribe it--because autism is a
spectrum disorder, it looksdifferent from autistic person
to autistic person--but for me,it's--it's a long and usually

(16:44):
persistent interest in, youknow, a particular thing. For
me, it's usually media. Butit's--it's very intense. It's
like, you know, you research athing ad nauseum, you kind of
develop almost this encyclopedicknowledge of a thing. And I
think there are some some coreways in which that is different

(17:04):
from hyperfixation.

Pen (17:06):
Yeah, definitely.

Harvey (17:09):
To--how do you think hyperfixation differs from the
way I described specialinterests?

Pen (17:13):
Yeah, yeah. So, hyperfixation--I don't think I
talked about it much in theepisode on ADHD, like you
mentioned it, but hyperfixationis-- Iactually did pull up
a--well, some form of definitionfrom ADDitude. "Hyperfocus, a
common but confusing, symptom ofADHD is the ability to zero in

(17:35):
intensely on an interestingproject or activity for hours at
a time." That's their, like,basic definition from the
Hyperfocus. So it's essentiallylike a tunnel vision kind of
thing, I think is the best way Ican put it, and it can be over
slightly longer periods of time.

(17:58):
But like, the hyperfixationversion of a long period of time
is closer to a few months,versus the special interest.
extended period of time that's,like, several years.

Harvey (18:09):
Potentially a lifetime.
So yeah--and for me, the longestspecial interest I've had is
Sonic the Hedgehog.

Pen (18:17):
Yes!

Harvey (18:18):
Pen loves it when I mentioned this.

Pen (18:20):
I'm just delighted by it.
I'm delighted by you.

Harvey (18:24):
But yeah, I've been into Sonic since I was probably six,
and I've been hooked on it eversince, and I'm turning 21 in a
couple months, so we're comingup on, mm, 15 years that I've
been into Sonic.

Pen (18:39):
Yeah, if I hyperfocused on something that long, I would
literally be dead.

Harvey (18:43):
Yeah, and hyperfocus--or special interests, I should say,
I don't think they're quite asintense as--as hyperfixations.
Because for me, hyperfixation isvery, very consuming, it seems.
It's like, it really kind ofconsumes your brain, and it
makes it hard to do otherthings.

Pen (18:59):
It's like--it's the opposite side of the coin, from
the distractibility where, like,my brain can't focus on anything
and, like, it all just slidesoff, and hyperfocus is like,
it's the only thing going on.

Harvey (19:12):
Yeah, and well, with my special interest--for some
folks, it can be like that. Forme, it's more of a thing of,
like, this is something that Ireally enjoy talking about, and
I probably spend more time thanthe average--like, significantly
more time than the averageperson engaging with those
interests. However, I'mcapable--I'm definitely, like,

(19:33):
capable of doing other thingsquite easily, if I'm being
honest. It's just like, theminute somebody asks me about
one of my special interestslike, "Oh, can I--can I tell you
everything about it?"

Pen (19:45):
You can play a Sonic video game and get up to drink water.

Harvey (19:48):
Yes, I can. I can do that. But also, like, in a
single day, I might spend, like,three to five hours playing a
Sonic game.

Pen (19:58):
Which I love.

Harvey (19:59):
Which, you know, somebody who maybe wasn't
autistic and had a casualenjoyment of Sonic the Hedgehog
maybe wouldn't do that.

Pen (20:06):
I love it when you do that kind of--I remember back when we
were living in the--in thedorms, and I would just--several
of us would--would sit out onthe couch, and you would be
playing Son-Sonic Mania, right?

Harvey (20:18):
Yes.

Pen (20:19):
It was amazing, especially when we could narrate along
Other, Dumber Knuckles.

Harvey (20:23):
So for context-

Pen (20:24):
It's one of my treasured memories.

Harvey (20:26):
For context, there's a--so "& Knuckles" is kind of a
meme based on Sonic 3 &Knuckles, which was a Sonic the
Hedgehog game. And sort of the"& Knuckles" addendum has become
sort of a meme in recent years.
So, in Sonic Mania, what you cando is you can turn on "&
Knuckles" mode, which means thatKnuckles just follows you along
as an AI. However, Knuckles isalso a playable character. So

(20:50):
you can, in fact, play withKnuckles and Knuckles. Hence,
Other, Dumber Knuckles.

Pen (20:57):
Yeah, we made fun of the AI Knuckles for being less good at,
you know, doing things, becauseit's an AI. So there was
Harvey's Knuckles, and thenthere was Other, Dumber
Knuckles.

Harvey (21:06):
Yes. Some of my other special interests--I really only
have three.--and also, theamount that you have at one time
varies. Sometimes it's one,sometimes it's several. Right
now there's, like, three, andsome are more salient than
others. But I also do have aspecial interest in Stardew
Valley, specifically thecharacter Harvey. I did not name

(21:28):
myself after Harvey. Peoplenever believe me when I say it.

Pen (21:31):
I believe you.

Harvey (21:32):
I know you believe me, because you are my friend and
you're nice.

Pen (21:37):
Stardew Valley good game.

Harvey (21:38):
Stardew Valley good game. But Harvey specifically is
a character that I, like,hardcore fixate on. And then,
also, music, just in general.
Not so much, like, music theorybecause I'm brain dead.

Pen (21:53):
Brain worms ate all the music theory.

Harvey (21:55):
Yeah, no, I'm brain dead. But more like lyricism,
that sort of thing. And I alsocollect records. My record
collection is--I think I havesomething like 33?

Pen (22:08):
Wow, that's a lot of them.

Harvey (22:09):
Yeah, I've spent, like, an ungodly amount of money on
records.

Pen (22:14):
Music

Harvey (22:19):
I'm actually not as interested in Mitski as I used
to be, but Mitski--I stillreally like Mitski. Mitski's
still very cool.

Pen (22:27):
Can I--can I say how I describe your music tastes?

Harvey (22:30):
Oh, please.

Pen (22:30):
Yeah, I would say generally, Harvey's taste in
music, which, you know, there'sa lot of variance in it.

Harvey (22:35):
I'm pretty eclectic in terms of the kind of music I
listen to.

Pen (22:39):
But I have noticed that one of the consistent threads is
that Harvey really likeslistening to sad women who yell
at them.

Harvey (22:46):
Sad women who yell at me or cry, just a lot.

Pen (22:50):
Just like sad, indie, women is a very common thread through
Harvey's music taste.

Harvey (22:56):
Mitski, Dodie, Sunday Cruise, Phoebe Bridgers...

Pen (23:01):
Like, the reason that I know this is because sometimes
we'll be in the car and Harveywill put on music, and, like, I
won't have heard it before. Butalso, like, I would swear that
two weeks ago, I did, in fact,hear it. Not to say they all
sound the same, it's just like--

Harvey (23:13):
I mean, they kind of do.

Pen (23:14):
This is a sad woman.

Harvey (23:16):
This is a woman being very, very sad. And every now
and then I have the occasionalsad man. Hozier.

Pen (23:24):
Oh, God, Hozier's so good.

Harvey (23:26):
So those are just some of the examples of how we think
differently. We also processsenses differently, which is
something that we've touched onbefore. And--and it's
interesting because I'm also I'malso a touch hard of hearing.
Because of repeated earinfections, I've lost something

(23:49):
like 15% of my hearing. So it'snot--it's not like--it's not
like, super significant, but itdoes impair me in some ways. I
have trouble with harder--withhigher registers for the most
part. But all of this to say,sensing for me is a bit strange.
Definitely, I would say that Ifeel senses maybe more

(24:11):
intensely. So, a light that isbright to--to an allistic
person--er, I should really sayneurotypical--a light, depends,
but broadly, a light that mightbe just bright to neurotypical
people, is, like, just blindingand, like, super uncomfortable
for me. With sound--sounddoesn't tend to be too

(24:33):
overwhelming because I don'thear that well, but there are
certain sounds that reallyreally bother me. Just
very--just very, very particularones that make me go, ugh, no.
But yeah, things like that,just--for me, it's also, like,
textures of clothes. I'm--Ireally only like to wear cotton.

(24:57):
Anything other than cottonfeels, like, super, super
uncomfortable. And it just,like, kind of makes me want to
crawl out of my skin a littlebit. It's like, ugh.

Pen (25:07):
Tagless clothes is a pretty consistent thread for autistic
people.

Harvey (25:11):
Oh, God. You know, I'm so glad that, like, clothes
manufacturers have startedmoving more towards doing
tagless clothing, because oh, myGod, the tags just make me want
to rip my skin off.

Pen (25:23):
Yeah, that's--yeah, I vibe.

Harvey (25:27):
Yeah, and there's also, like, just--actually I say that
it's like--I actually think itmight be tactile. There are
certain--ugh--tactile thingsthat really bug me, which are
common, but--

Pen (25:37):
Did you, um--you just thought of one of them, didn't
you?

Harvey (25:39):
I did. I thought of styrofoam.

Pen (25:42):
Mm! It's the sounds for me.

Harvey (25:44):
It's the texture--it's the texture for me. But let's
stop talking about that one.

Pen (25:48):
It squeaks, I hate it.

Harvey (25:52):
Ugh. Paper--paper is also a problem for me.

Pen (25:54):
Oh, no.
No!

Harvey (25:55):
I hate the texture of paper particularly. Now, printer
paper is, like, okay,it's--it's, like, paper that
they put in sketchbooks.
Yeah, I'm an artist. Sothe texture--and paper towels,
the texture of paper--

Pen (26:13):
Oh, my God, this is so sad!

Harvey (26:14):
Yeah, there's something about it being textured and not
just being smooth, althoughprinter paper kind of bothers
me. Like, all paper, really.

Pen (26:21):
This is horrible. I'm so sorry.

Harvey (26:24):
Yeah, but it's--it's some very specific things where
it's just like, a normal personwouldn't think twice--normal--a
neurotypical person wouldn'tthink twice about it, and I
just, ugh.

Pen (26:33):
Yeah, that's--this is very useful for a second perspective
for me, too, because Iabsolutely have sensory
processing issues--quite a fewof them--but, like, in some
ways, it doesn't occur to me,like, the--the variable ways
that it can happen for differentpeople.

Harvey (26:47):
Yeah, and for me, it's--it's largely, like, visual
and tactile. We also communicatedifferently. So, one of the ways
that we communicate differentlyis through echolalia, which
is--which is something thatwe've talked about before.
And--and for some autisticfolks, particularly, like, less
verbal ones, they may onlycommunicate by, or primarily

(27:11):
communicate by, repeating wordsor phrases. So--I think this is
an example I've used in in thefirst recording--if, like--if a
kid is upset that the door isopen, and you know, like,
someone walks up to them andsays, "Are--why are you upset?
Is it because of the door?" andthat person might say "Door,
door door," over, and over, andover again, which could mean

(27:33):
something to the effect of, "Iwant you to close the door" And
you can sort of answer--and youcan sort of ask those follow-up
questions, just, like, "Do youwant the door closed?" And you
know, they--they have their ownway of telling you yes or no.
But also, it can be like kind ofa stimming thing, much like it
is for me and Pen.

Pen (27:53):
Yeah! It's like a mutual stim.

Harvey (27:56):
We do just repeat words back and forth sometimes.

Pen (28:00):
It's nice. I like it.

Harvey (28:01):
It just feels nice.
There's also scripting, which,you know, social scripts. You
know, just--generally, just,like, the--the way that we are
supposed to interact with theworld, in every situation we're
in. Even mundane things likegoing to a restaurant, right?

Pen (28:18):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Harvey knows that I'm excitedabout this. The first time we
did this recording, they werelike, "Pen, you look like you're
gonna--you--you look like youwant to say something so bad."
And it's that, like, one of myfavorite communication theories
that I learned about ininterpersonal communication is
the Theory of Social Scripts.

(28:38):
And, you know, the basic examplethat they use is going to a
restaurant, and how there is,like, an expected order of
things. Like. you go in, youexpect to be seated and they
come by, and they give you themenus and they ask about drinks,
and then they get you thedrinks, and they come back and
ask for the food and all that.
And if any one of those stepswas different, it would throw
people off.

Harvey (29:00):
Yeah, you know, that actually reminds me. My
presumably neurotypical--one ofmy presumably neurotypical
psychology professors is fromGermany originally. And in
Germany, there, nobody seatsyou, you just find your own
seat. So the first time she wentto a restaurant in America, she
just went to sit down andeveryone's like, what are you
doing?

Pen (29:19):
Yep. See, it really throws people off. For a lot of
neurotypical people--And this issomething I hadn't actually
thought about--my--mygirlfriend, and our mutual
friend, Emily, brought this tomy attention while back, but for
neurotypical people, socialscripts are something that
they're probably lessconsciously aware of. But for
neurodivergent folks, and I'msure what you're getting at is

(29:42):
specifically autistic folks,it's something that we have to
be a lot more cognizant of,because, you know, for us
society doesn't make any sense.

Harvey (29:50):
Yup. So--so there's that. And--and scripting for
autistic people specifically,it's a lot of really mundane
things, too. Like, going to thedoctor or talking to an advisor
is something that I plan outahead of time. I make sure I

(30:11):
know exactly what I'm going tosay. So I--and I do that based
off of what I have learned is,quote unquote, appropriate.
Speaking of, I have an advisingappointment tomorrow to declare
a minor and I definitely havethought about what I'm going to
say. So, you know.

Pen (30:28):
My understanding is that it's different than like a
social anxiety type thing of,like, thinking through what
you're going to do.

Harvey (30:34):
Yeah. It's--it's less of a thing of, like, "Oh, I don't
want to look stupid." It's justlike, "Okay, well, I'm going to
be in this situation. And Iknow, from the situation, I'm
expected to do XYZ, so I'm goingto say, ABC, so that I, you
know, so that I make sure I'm,I'm, you know, dealing with this
situation appropriately." Soit's that sort of thing. And for

(30:57):
nonverbal autistic people, wehave things called AAC. Which,
again, I forgot what AAC standsfor--

Pen (31:04):
I'm gonna Google it.

Harvey (31:05):
Go for it. But AAC is essentially, like, kind of
a--kind of a technology assistedform of communication. So,
uh--did you find it?

Pen (31:17):
Augment--Augmentative and Alternative Communication.

Harvey (31:19):
Yes, thank you. And--and typically, if you've ever seen,
like, possibly an autistic kidwith an iPad, touching pictures,
or even, like, people who aregoing through rehab and are not
able to speak yet, because theymay be been in a coma for a long
time, that is AAC. It's just away of communicating that
doesn't require the mouth.
Because often, I think moreoften than most people think,

(31:43):
just because an autistic personis nonverbal does not mean that
they are inherently at acognitive deficit.

Pen (31:51):
It's just different.

Harvey (31:53):
It yeah. And there are some like genuine--genuine, um,
psychological impairments thatsometimes come with autism. That
is real, I don't want to ignorethat. And disability and
impairment, they're not dirtywords. But I do want to break
down the idea that somebody whorelies on AAC does not
necessarily have a limitedmental capacity.

Pen (32:14):
Yeah, like that, that perception of if you do not
speak verbally, then there mustbe something...

Harvey (32:21):
Deficient?

Pen (32:22):
Yeah, deficient. Which, like, sometimes that is the
case, and sometimes it's justnot the case. And I think it can
be very important to normalizethe idea that, sometimes, people
are just nonverbal.

Harvey (32:34):
And verbality it isn't consistent, either. There are
definitely some situations whereI feel significantly less able
to talk. Like, physically, mymouth will not make the words,
other than, like, right now,where I'm saying so many words.
Pen and I are shaking hands.

Pen (32:49):
Yeah, I also have some periods where I'm more likely to
go nonverbal.

Harvey (32:54):
And I've been taking a thousand years on this broad
overview, so I'm just gonna hitthe last three points real
quick. We move differently.
Motor skills are harder forpeople with autism. I'm super
clumsy as a result, and I alsohave trouble with volume
control. We socializedifferently. Sort of the typical
way that you hear about that isthe lesser understanding of

(33:14):
social cues, which is true. I--Iam generally more direct than my
peers, and I need people to bemore direct toward me,
otherwise, I have no idea whatyou're trying to tell me. And
then there's also a commonthought that autistic people
have low or no empathy, and thatis true sometimes. It is true

(33:36):
that autism is sometimesassociated with lower/no
empathy. Empathy is not requiredto be a good person. Empathy is
literally just your ability tokind of, like, literally put
yourself in someone else's shoesand like tangibly feel the way
that they feel, even if you'venever gone through that before.
Which is different fromsympathy, which is just

(33:56):
recognizing that something thatsomeone is going through is
tough, and you know, like reallybeing like, "Oh, wow." Low
empathy is not necessarily anindicator of how good of a
person you are. So if you havelow empathy, you are not a bad
person. And if you think thatpeople will low empathy or bad
people, no, they're not.

Pen (34:16):
Yeah. Empathy, sympathy, and, like, compassion, they're
not--none of them are inherentlylinked with each other. Just
because you have high empathydoesn't mean you're doing
anything with it.

Harvey (34:25):
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Pen (34:28):
It's conscious choices that really matter, I think, rather
than your capacity to feel inparticular ways.

Harvey (34:33):
I would--yeah, I would say so. But a thing that is
lesser known is that autism canalso be associated with
hyperempathy.

Pen (34:42):
Harvey!

Harvey (34:43):
Yeah. Which is--which is my case, I feel everyone's
emotions very, very intensely,which sometimes concerns
me,considering I want to becomea counselor, but that's--that's
a thing and it means that mylife is is exhausting. But yeah,
with the empathy thing, it's twoends of an extreme. Low or no
empathy, or you have so much--somuch empathy. And also, we may

(35:08):
need help. Even folks like me,who are maybe on the, you know,
I don't like to say highfunctioning, because I don't--I
don't like that language. I getthere are situations in which it
can be useful. But--

Pen (35:19):
It's typically a judgment that's kind of implied with it.

Harvey (35:22):
Yeah. So I will say, on folks who are maybe on the
lesson paired end of thespectrum, such as myself, I may
not need as much help as otherfolks. But daily tasks are hard.
And like, I think the big thing,especially for people--for
autistic people who appear more,quote unquote, neurotypical is,
we may just need to take morebreaks. We may just need a

(35:46):
little bit more buffer time. Andthen, you know, for folks who
are maybe a bit more impaired onthe end of the spectrum, there
are some things that they maynot be able to do at all without
assistance, and there's nothingwrong with that.

Pen (35:58):
No, that's--this is--sometimes, you're born with
a brain that works in a way thatpeople don't expect, and that
has absolutely nothing to dowith your worth or value as a
person. Boy, wouldn't that becool as, like, an understood
concept!

Harvey (36:12):
Right? So that was a little bit more than just an
overview, it's also, like,getting into the nitty gritty of
some of what that looks like.

Pen (36:22):
If you--if you'll forget, it was beyond just the basics of
it. I'm a little ashamed ofthat.

Harvey (36:30):
No, I mean--I mean, that is what the episode is gonna be
called.

Pen (36:33):
Oh, no, I know. I was stretching it.

Harvey (36:36):
You did your best, and I--

Pen (36:38):
I knew it was gonna be bad.

Harvey (36:40):
But now I can move into a little bit of a discussion on
treatment, which we talked aboutin the last episode, and Pen was
very upset, and I don't blamethem.

Pen (36:52):
I'm be upset again, you know it.

Harvey (36:53):
Yeah, I do. So CBT--cognitive behavioral
therapy--is one way to treat--Iknow.

Pen (37:01):
It's--last time, my first response was, "Oh, that sounds
really cool," because I thinkthat cognition and behavior and,
like, theories based on that arevery neat.

Harvey (37:11):
That's true. Yeah.

Pen (37:13):
I should have realized society's fundamentally ableist.

Harvey (37:18):
Yeah.

Pen (37:19):
Sorry for interrupting you, Harvey.

Harvey (37:21):
That's okay. So cognitive behavioral therapy is
one way to treat it. Um, in theend, I would say that it's
I have found that, like,particularly when it comes to
probably particularly forautistic adolescents and adults
who are--who are maybe a bitmore capable of--because
children just, autistic or not,don't have the capacity to think
abstractly about their ownthoughts. That's just how

(37:43):
development works. So that'sprobably for older autistic
folks. But CBT is one way. It'sparticularly just for--I would
say, that's more for justgetting through life. And that
things like social scripts,like, having it broken down
also ties in with social skillstraining, which is, you know,
exactly what it sounds like.
Just giving autistic folks thetools that they need to go
through life and society insometimes and being told, like,

(38:07):
yeah, this is the expectedperhaps a more--what's the word
I'm looking for?--functionalway. Just--just something that
is going to work a little bitetter for the structure arou
d them. Now we can--we can talabout dismantling that str
cture and changing it, but somtimes--sometimes you do have to
ake do.

(38:35):
script of it, can be very usefulif it's not something you're
going to perceive on your own.
Right? Yeah, no, absolutely. Andthen the one that Pen got mad
about was ABA. And if you'venever heard of ABA, ABA is
applied behavior analysis.

Pen (38:52):
I thought it sounded cool, because I think analyzing
behavior is neat, but...

Harvey (38:57):
Well--and here's the thing
bad thing. ABA can be really,really useful, and it is often
really useful. Things involvingbehavioral therapy are kind of
the gold standard forpsychology, and that is mixed.
But...

Pen (39:14):
Psychology is also super screwed up as a field,
especially historically.

Harvey (39:19):
Oh, absolutely. But yeah, I mean, behavioral
therapy, applied behavioranalysis, is really useful for,
like, maybe treating kids who dohave legitimate, you know,
behavior problems, not justautistic Black kids who are
diagnosed with conduct disorderbecause the medical system is
racist. You know, ABA can bereally useful for things like

(39:43):
that. It's also really usefulfor phobias and for social
anxiety.

Pen (39:48):
I'm sorry, just, I hear social anxiety and I'm like, oh,
that's me!

Harvey (39:53):
No, totally, totally.
ABA can be useful, um, andin--in, if it was done
correctly, it could be--er,rather, not done correctly,
because it is done correctly.
When ABA is applied to autism,it's just that which is
considered correct is extremelyunethical.

Pen (40:12):
Applied compassionately, perhaps,

Harvey (40:14):
Yeah, applied compassionately, and possibly
just to another end. It might beokay. The problem with ABA as it
stands for autistic folks isthat it relies a lot on
eliminating stimming--selfstimulatory behaviors. And I
think there is something to besaid for that if those stims are

(40:37):
self injurious. Like, if youhave a kid, you know, banging
their head on a table, whichhappens sometimes, then
it's--it's worth considering,like, okay, maybe--maybe we try
to get them to not do thisanymore. And we give them an
alternative, like, maybe we givethem, like, a drum, or they can
hit the table with their handsto, like, make a little drumming

(40:57):
noise. But you know, typically,the thing with behavioral
therapy is that, unless thebehavior is severe, you really
do just want to direct thatbehavior to something that
fulfills a similar goal, but issafer. And that's not the stims

(41:18):
that they're trying to get ridof 100% of the time. That's part
of it, but they're also tryingto get rid of just completely,
like, non harmful stims,because... I don't know, they
look strange, and that might getthe kid ostracized. And, look,
here's the thing. It's actuallynot the job of autistic people

(41:38):
to be palatable for allisticpeople.

Pen (41:42):
You're right, and you should say it.

Harvey (41:45):
Listen, y'all allistics are just gonna get have to get
used to the fact that I flap myhands sometimes, and that I walk
around humming or repeatingphrases. I'm not--I'm not
apologizing for it, I don't feelbad about it.

Pen (41:57):
Nor should you.

Harvey (41:59):
So that's where the issues with ABA lie. It's--it's
in its application, the way thatit is applied. And the big thing
that you see is these kidsgetting very, very distressed.
And distress is normal, in somecases with--with behavioral

(42:21):
therapy. But stimming is a waythat people, autistic people,
especially, self regulate.
Stimming, for me, is sometimes away for me to manage sensory
overload. If I'm experiencing anuncomfortable stimulus, I do one
that I like, so that I can feela little bit better. And you are
taking this legitimately usefultool away from kids and teaching

(42:44):
them that, from a young age, andPen, I think you pointed this
out last episode, that it'swrong to do that and to self
regulate.

Pen (42:56):
It's--this is abuse. The reason that it's distressing
children is because they arebeing actively mistreated in
directly harmful ways. Like, wehad our--our separate episode
on--on stimming, and so we'vetalked about stimming before.
But like, and while it's notexclusive to autistic people,
like, it is really, reallyhugely relevant when talking

(43:19):
about autistic people,especially in, like, stereotypes
and things that pop up. Andit's--I know that hand flapping
in particular is one that peopletend to come back to because
it's relatively common andjust...

Harvey (43:32):
And visible.

Pen (43:33):
--because it looks strange to do that, it's treated as
something that's wrong and needsto be taken away, when, like, I
flap my hands sometimes,typically when I am experiencing
joy. And the idea of someone,like, trying to train me,
directly, train someone out ofsomething they are doing to

(43:54):
express joy cannot be anythingother than mistreating and
abusing that person.

Harvey (44:01):
Like, at best, unnecessary, and more
realistically, abusive. Sothat's--unless your kid is
harming themselves and they willnot stop, don't--don't send them
to ABA.

Pen (44:16):
And as you--as you touched on, the way to try and help with
stimming that might be harmful,like banging your head or, like,
scratching yourself and thingslike that is to move to a
different form of stimming thatisn't harmful, not to eliminate
stimming entirely from yourchild.

Harvey (44:35):
Yes. You just want to transfer it to a different
behavior.

Pen (44:40):
Don't--don't try and prevent children from
interacting with the worldaround them.

Harvey (44:44):
Or self regulating. Self regulating is the thing I want
to keep coming back to. Stimmingis such a major part of self
regulation. Don't take thataway, your kid's going to suffer
so much more. So with that heavydiscussion out of the way, I
want to talk about some funfacts, and also comorbidities,
which I think are fun facts, butthat's because I'm a psych nerd.

Pen (45:04):
No, I--I also think it's a fun fact, so here we are.

H (45:08):
so, autism and trans identity are correlated, which is--which
is something I think I've knownin the back of my head since I
was a teenager, because I'mtrans and autistic, and many of
my friends are trans andautistic. But there was a study
that found that somewherebetween--er, excuse me, that
somewhere--around 14% of thetrans and non binary people that

(45:34):
they surveyed, had a diagnosisof autism, and a further 28% met
the criteria for autism.

Pen (45:43):
That is so many.

Harvey (45:45):
Yeah, and to put that in context, about 1% to 2% of the
general population has autism.

Pen (45:50):
Yeah, that is--that is over a quarter of people who are
trans and nonbinary.

Harvey (45:56):
Yeah, at least in this study. And--and the broader
demographics could lookdifferent. But that is still a
significant difference. And--andthere's a couple of theories for
that. My general thought isthat, like, you know, social
cues and things like that aresort of alien to autistic

(46:18):
people. So therefore, the--thegender roles and the social
scripts, frankly, associatedwith being a man or being a
woman make less sense. And wealso, like you mentioned, when
we recorded this the first time,we have to question them more.
Which may also lead toquestioning our gender and being
like, you know what? Maybe Iactually am not, cis. Maybe my
gender is more complicated thanthat.

Pen (46:39):
Maybe gender actually is not... hm! Pass.

Harvey (46:44):
I'm thinking--I don't remember exactly what it's
called, but there was, like somesuper edgy, like, adult-oriented
Sesame Street parody that wasout in the early 2000s. And one
of the questions that they askedthe kids was, "What is love?"
And--and one of the kidsanswered, "A neurochemical con
job." [Pen laughs] And I wasabout to refer to gender that

(47:07):
way, that gender is aneurochemical con job.

Pen (47:10):
Gender is a neurotypical con job.

Harvey (47:13):
Ah, yeah, that's a better one. Thanks!

Pen (47:17):
Jokes. Collaborative humor.

Harvey (47:19):
So there is--there is that little tidbit that--that
autistic people are much morelikely to identify as trans, it
seems. And that could be formany reasons.

Pen (47:31):
And as you--as you pointed out, the first time we recorded
this--yeah, folks, this is a funrecording, in which we've
already talked about a lot ofthis, so we're doing our best to
give it to you--but this doesn'tmean that because your kid is
trans, they're going to beautistic, or because your kid is
autistic, they're going to betrans. Like, correlation and
causation are not the samething. And also, not that it'd

(47:54):
be a bad thing anyway,

Harvey (47:56):
Nope. Nothing wrong with being trans, nothing wrong with
being autistic.

Pen (47:59):
If you're both, it just means you have two cool things
about you. And IBS. [Pen laughs]

Harvey (48:06):
Yes. So that actually segues extremely well into the
next thing I wanted to talkabout, which was some
comorbidities with autism. Oneof them being, yes,
gastrointestinal problems. Noone's really sure why this is
the case. But it is remarkablycommon for autistic folks to
have stomach and digestiveproblems. I've got three. Not

(48:30):
formally diagnosed, butpresumably I have IBS. I have
GERD, acid reflux, which I amdiagnosed with. And then I'm
also lactose intolerant.

Pen (48:40):
I make fun of Harvey constantly for this. Lovingly!

Harvey (48:43):
I really like dairy. I eat a lot of ice cream. I eat a
lot of cheese. I do just drinkmilk by the glass. I love dairy
more than anyone I know. And Iam-

Pen (48:54):
Lack toes in toddler ants, you fool.

Harvey (48:58):
Yes.

Pen (48:59):
Now, dairy also makes me feel a little bit sick, and I
keep doing it, so I'm a totalhypocrite here, but I've been
making fun of Harvey for thisfor, like, two years at this
point, so... They--they glaredat me.

Harvey (49:12):
Some other comorbidities
remarkably common with--withautistic folks. Depression also
shows up sometimes but it's alittle less common. And then
tinnitus, also. I have tinnitus,and that's probably a
combination of being autisticand also having hearing loss.

(49:32):
Because, you know, damage to theears causes tinnitus.

Pen (49:35):
Buh-bye.

Harvey (49:35):
Buh-bye. But yeah, I mean, like, I pretty much always
have a ringing in my ears, andthat's something that is pretty
common among autistic folks.
Again, nobody knows why, but myguess is hypersensitivity to,
like, sensory stuff.

Pen (49:52):
That's--yeah, I've looked into a bit, links between
sensory processing issues andtinnitus which, surprise,
surprise, there's not a ton ofroom research on. Natch. But
that's because that's somethingthat I also--like, I've had
tinnitus for as long as Iremember. And broadly speaking,
you're not born with tinnitus.
That's not typically how itworks. So, usually it's--it
comes from, like, damage to theears. And so, like, links

(50:14):
between having sensoryprocessing issues and your ears
just being like, "What if therewas a xylophone just ringing?
Just going?"

Harvey (50:25):
You know, if it sounded like a xylophone, I think I
would hate my tinnitus a lotless.

Pen (50:29):
Remember the time that we went to, like, a recital thing
for Em, and one of the peoplehad--they did like, it was a
xylophone or, like, chimes orsomething? And there was one
note that they hit, and Harveyand I just looked at each other.
We're like, that is exactly whattinnitus sounds like. That note
just repeating was like, oh,good, now it's outside my head.

Harvey (50:51):
Oh, no. And it was, like, some super, like,
experimental piece, too. So ofcourse, it was like vaguely
pretentious. And then it alsosounded like tinnitus.

Pen (51:00):
Because they used crystal mallets, so it keeps ringing,
too. And it was like, great.
Good.

Harvey (51:05):
It's like, shut up, shut up, shut up, the only reason I'm
here is because of my bestfriend.

Pen (51:08):
Good and great.

Harvey (51:10):
So I want to close this episode by talking about why
Autism Speaks sucks.

Pen (51:16):
Woo!

Harvey (51:16):
And literally, in my notes, the heading is "Autism
Speak sucks," because it does.
So, a couple things about whyAutism Speaks sucks. It is more
targeted at helping parents thanchildren, which inherently is
not a bad thing. Like, thereshould be resources for parents
of autistic children. Allisticparents, especially, of autistic

(51:37):
children

Pen (51:39):
Absolutely! You want to be informed of things. Treat your
children well.

Harvey (51:42):
the problem is, it's made in the parents' best
interest and not the child's.

Pen (51:47):
Oh, so it's not about treating your children well.

Harvey (51:48):
No.

Pen (51:49):
Hmm.

Harvey (51:51):
There--I remember, like--and also treats autism
like--like a disease that needsto be cured. There--I'm pretty
sure, don't quote me on this,but I'm pretty sure Autism
Speaks is a proponent of ABA, sothere's that. And I remember,
like, there was this ad campaignthey put out once called, like,

(52:12):
"I Am Autism." And it's--it'streating autism like--like a
horror movie. You know, and justlike, "I'm autism, and I'm

gonna, like, ruin your life. (52:21):
" Like it was a bit more verbose
than that. But yeah, I mean, itdoes that. And they also, like,
center the story of--I told youabout this in the last
episode--of like a woman whotried to drive her, like, almost
drove her and her kid off of acliff because her kid was
autistic. And it's like, youshouldn't be a mother, actually.

Pen (52:40):
This is a problem with the mother.

Harvey (52:41):
I'm going to bite you.

Pen (52:44):
This--there is--there is no reason you should ever do that.
Your child cannot be the blamefor that situation. They're a
child.

Harvey (52:55):
Like, one, there's nothing wrong with being
autistic, two, it's not likeyour kid made the decision.

Pen (53:00):
Like you--there is no justification. A child just sort
of exists. And if your childexisting makes you want to drive
your car off a cliff, I don'tthink you should be caring for
that child.

Harvey (53:11):
No. No, no, no. There are also no autistic people on
the board of directors.

Pen (53:17):
Seems like not--not a good organization for helping
autistic folks. Huh.

Harvey (53:23):
If you're trying to help autistic folks, autistic people
should be leading thatconversation. That doesn't mean
allistic people shouldn't beinvolved. They should.

Pen (53:32):
I'm here talking to you.

Harvey (53:34):
Yes. But autistic people need to be leading that
discussion, and need to be thereto call out the idiot allistic
people who say that vaccinescause autism.

Pen (53:42):
Oh, my God.

Harvey (53:43):
Also, vaccines don't cause autism.

Pen (53:45):
No. The one single study that actually, like, had those
results was--it was doctored.
Like that wasn't actuallyaccurate in any respect. It
wasn't--didn't you say the guyhad his medical license revoked?

Harvey (53:56):
Doctored so extensive--extensively that the
guy lost his medical license.
That should tell you all youneed to know.

Pen (54:04):
So yeah, vaccines and autism, there's absolutely no
link by any real science thathas been done is one, two,

Harvey (54:11):
It's also like, oh, okay, so you'd rather have a
autism is not a bad thing, soeven if vaccinating your child
against, hmm, polio, would causeautism, which it doesn't and
can't, vaccines are still a goodthing. I know that's not the
point, but I just want to--wantto be out here saying that
because every single antivaxthing, especially things that

(54:32):
are focused on, like, what if itcauses neurodivergence? It's
like, okay, neurodivergenceisn't bad. And also, what if we
didn't have polio? Still, thatwould be cool.
dead child than a neurodivergentone? Cool.

Pen (54:48):
That's A+.

Harvey (54:50):
I can't wait for somebody to take this bit out of

context (54:52):
I was vaccinated as a child and now I'm gay, trans,
autistic, and a liberal.

Pen (55:00):
I got my HPV vaccine and turned bisexual.

Harvey (55:06):
And more about the--

Pen (55:07):
Actually, I think that might have been around the time
I came out. [Laughter]

Harvey (55:12):
Yep, the HPV vaccine turned you bisexual, Pen.

Pen (55:15):
I felt nauseous and faint, and then I liked girls. [Harvey
laughs]

Harvey (55:18):
[Coughs] Oh, man.

Pen (55:23):
I might take this out of context for, like, bonus...

Harvey (55:27):
Oh, wow. I sound like my grandmother. Jesus. Um, anyway,
so more on the board ofdirectors, there was an autistic
man on the board of directors atone point who left pretty
quickly because he did not feelrespected. Shockingly.

Pen (55:45):
Poor guy.

Harvey (55:46):
I'm being--I'm being sarcastic. But, Jesus, yeah,
there's--and also, the nail inthe coffin: So much more of the
funds they collect go tocompensating the board members
and actually helping families,so they don't even put their
money where their mouth is. Also40% of their money goes to
advertising. So like...

Pen (56:07):
Like, their mouth sucks, also. It's just a bad mouth.

Harvey (56:11):
It's just spewing garbage.

Pen (56:14):
This is, um, oh, that I wanted to potentially bring up
when you're brought up treatingautism. Yeah, there's a--there's
a couple of things that I hadbrought up on the first time we
tried this. But one of them,when it comes to treating
autism, I know you brought upbriefly last time that it's
very, very different than, like,ADHD where I take medication to

(56:38):
help with my ADHD, help me focusand things, especially because,
you know, ADHD is caused atleast in part by dopamine
deficiency. That's not--there'snot pills for autism.

Harvey (56:52):
No. It's--no, it's one of those things. And ADHD
doesn't go away.

Pen (56:57):
No, it doesn't. There's no cure for either of them. And
anyone who is trying to tellyou, or like, search for a cure
for neurodivergence, don't trustthem.

Harvey (57:08):
They are wrong and also ableist.

Pen (57:09):
Yeah, that's--it's fundamentally wrong. But like
even when it comes to treatingautism, like, what we talked
about with, like, behavioraltherapies and things, like,
that's--it's very different thanlooking for a cure, and it's
also focused on like, improvingpeople's--like, autistic
people's lives.

Harvey (57:27):
Yes, yes, absolutely. So I think I've said everything
that I want to say. Pen, do youhave anything you'd like to add?

Pen (57:34):
Yeah, there was the--the thing on--so Autism Speaks, is
they have a thing, they're likeblue puzzle piece, or like when
there's Autism Awareness week,or month, or day, or whatever,
and they do, like, the light itup blue thing. If you want to
support autistic people, one, goto places like the Autism

(57:58):
Self-Advocacy Network, like,support autistic people buy
directly supporting autisticpeople, not neurotypical people
who are demonizing autism. Butalso, like, maybe you are
intending to find a way tosupport them, and you're like,
oh, I mean, like, I like theconcept of light it up blue, or
whatever. I have seen redinstead--some autistic people

(58:20):
use, which is exactly what itsays on the tin, like, using red
instead of blue. And also whenit comes to supporting, trying
to show your support. There wasa story that I--I saw, someone
made a post, like, that theirschool was trying to be like
support of autism, and so theychanged all the lights in the
cafeteria to blue ones, and theperson in question had to leave

(58:44):
because it was such a badsensory experience. If you're
looking to supportneurodivergent people in
general, but in this case,specifically autistic people,
try to be cognizant of thingsthat are actually going to be
supportive and helpful and notunpleasant.

Harvey (59:03):
Like,

Pen (59:08):
10,000 US dollars.

Harvey (59:09):
I was getting to that.
Give me a glass of juice, a niceblanket, a stuffie, some nice
headphones, and 10,000 USdollars.

Pen (59:20):
If you're looking to support autistic people, you

absolutely should (59:22):
maybe don't change the basics of their
sensory environments.

Harvey (59:28):
And if you do, make it so that the lights are dimmer,
or the s--or the sounds arequieter.

Pen (59:35):
That would be nice.

Harvey (59:36):
And also, I would like a glass of juice and 10,000 US
dollars.

Pen (59:40):
What kind of juice?

Harvey (59:42):
Cranberry. I respect you. Healthy choices.
It will hurt me. [Pen laughs]

Pen (59:49):
Harvey consumes food for pain. [Unintelligible] pain.

Harvey (59:56):
Okay, anything else you'd like to add?

Pen (59:59):
No, I don't think so. Oh, actually, yeah, one one brief
thing.

Harvey (01:00:03):
Go ahead.

Pen (01:00:03):
Uh, and this is more just, like, kind of a--there's--you
may have noticed, folks, in ourdiscussion, that there were a
lot of things that Harveybrought up and I was like, oh,
yeah, I totally get that,because there are significant
overlaps in the symptoms of ADHDand autism.

Harvey (01:00:18):
I can't believe I didn't talk about that with the
comorbidities. Yes. Autism andADHD are super comorbid.
Something like a third of allpeople with one have the other.

Pen (01:00:28):
Yeah, which is very, very cool. And that's essentially
what I wanted to bring up. Like,in our cases, specifically,
we--between you, me, and yourboyfriend, we have, like, the
full spectrum of it. You justhave autism, I just have ADHD,
he has both.

Harvey (01:00:43):
Yes.

Pen (01:00:45):
But yeah, yeah. It's something that is sometimes
comorbid. And even when it isn'tcomorbid, there are those
overlaps, which I reallyappreciate because it helps us
understand each other better,and sometimes have things like
the mutual stimming withecholalia. Where it's just, we
get it.

Harvey (01:00:59):
Yeah.

Pen (01:01:00):
I just think that's neat.

Harvey (01:01:01):
That is just neat. Okay, well stick around for just a few
moments, and we will tell you alittle bit more about how this
podcast is run, our Patreon, andalso, Heather, you're great. We
love you.

Pen (01:01:12):
Heather, you're fantastic.
Heather, so that everyone knowswas someone who sent
in--messaged us on Instagram.
Very, very kind messages. Soone, Heather, thank you so, so,
so much. We were both just,like, deeply moved by it. And
two, folks, if you are at allhesitant in reaching out to us

(01:01:35):
and--just--just know how much itmeans to us to receive those
messages.

Harvey (01:01:39):
Yeah.
Beyond Introspection is anindependently-run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atByndPodcast or you can email us
at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com.
That's beyond d-o-t podcast, nospaces. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.

(01:02:01):
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description.

Pen (01:02:07):
We also have a Patreon. You can find us at
patreon.com/beyondintrospection.
That's all one word. We alsohave links to it on our site and
on our social media. Our podcastis entirely independent, so we
pay for hosting fees andtranscript service subscriptions
out of pocket. This is a passionproject that we're really happy
to do, and any support you'reable to give us would really
make a difference. On our

P (01:02:27):
$2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers;
$5 which will give you access tobonus episodes that will make in
the future, on topics like howangry we are Freud, our
frustrations with our respectivefields of studies and even guest
episodes; $10 will get you adirect line and priority access
to request episode topics andnew bonus content; and $15,

(01:02:48):
which will give you access tomonthly AMAs--that's ask me
anything for those who don'tknow--where we can answer
questions ranging from thepodcast process and we figure
out what to record, more indepth questions about our
neurodivergences, and more. Allof those tiers will include
benefits from lower tiers ofcourse. And also just to note,
unlike our regular episodes,Patreon bonus content is likely

(01:03:09):
to include swearing, so ifthat's not your vibe, please
know that ahead of time. We'dalso love it if you're able to
share this podcast with peopleyou know. Our only advertising
is word of mouth and we want toreach as many people as
possible.

Harvey (01:03:23):
Got feedback for us?
Want to request an episodetopic? Just feel like saying
hello? Feel free to reach out onsocial media, or via email. We'd
love to hear from everyone. Takecare of yourselves.

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