June 1, 2021 • 51 mins
In this episode, Harvey and Pen discuss Gifted Kid Syndrome and the effects of academic pressure and stress on children and teens - including how that stress continues to impact people throughout their lives.
Featuring: We know we've said it already, but for real: The System Is Broken, Y'all; SAT vs. ACT and how they really don't matter; Standarized Test Mint Nostalgia; Hello classism, nice to see you entrenched in the public school system; Those poor honors students; When academic success gets linked to parental pride and love, you gotta know things are bad; Hey kid, we're proud of you.
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pen (00:12):
Welcome to Beyond introspection
mental health, neurodivergenceand how it impacts literally
every aspect of our lives.
Harvey (00:19):
You know the line. All of them.
Pen (00:21):
All of them. I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:23):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:24):
And this week we are going to talk about Gifted Kid
Syndrome.
Harvey (00:28):
Oh, yes.
Pen (00:30):
Yeah.
Harvey (00:31):
You know, we have--Pen and I have a running list of
topics that we--that we want tocover eventually, on this
podcast. And naturally, becausewe're neurodivergent, we don't
plan that much.
Pen (00:45):
No. Oh, God, it's like...
Harvey (00:47):
We talk about an episode, and it's often, like,
the day of, so, like, "Hey, whatare we gonna--what are we going
to talk about?"
Pen (00:52):
What are we talking about though?
Harvey (00:54):
And I was going through and I was like, ooh, gifted kid
syndrome? That would be a cooltopic. And you were like, oogh.
Pen (01:00):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's also--we also tend to add to the
list more than we check thingsoff of it.
Harvey (01:06):
Hey, that means we'll be set for, like, a while.
Pen (01:09):
Yes, that is--that is accurate. But yeah, gifted kid
syndrome, though--wow. It's beena while since we recorded.
Harvey (01:16):
Pen.
Pen (01:17):
Harvey.
Harvey (01:18):
Tell me...
Pen (01:19):
Yes.
Harvey (01:19):
...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen (01:21):
I appreciate you so much.
You are the Wahoo! Moment of mylife.
Harvey (01:26):
Aw, that's gay.
Pen (01:28):
It...
Harvey (01:29):
Well, strictly speaking, is it? No, I'm into men.
Pen (01:33):
Well, if you think about...
Harvey (01:34):
It's not straight.
Pen (01:35):
No, if you think about, though, like, gay as same-gender
attraction, we are bothnonbinary.
Harvey (01:42):
Hmm.
Pen (01:42):
So in that--in that definition...
Harvey (01:46):
I guess it is gay, then.
Pen (01:47):
Yeah.
Harvey (01:47):
Anyway, thank you for the very sweet compliment. I
love you.
Pen (01:49):
You're welcome! I love you too, Harvey.
Harvey (01:51):
I do want to provide another disclaimer that we're
not dating.
Pen (01:53):
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's--yeah, we're not. No,
we're just close, good friends.
My Wahoo! Moment of the Week...
uh... I have a new roommatewho's moving in, and it's very
exciting. I'm very happy aboutit. I work better when I live
with another person, which isnot something I knew about
(02:14):
myself before. But I've learnedlike, oh, when I'm isolated
things go poorly.
Harvey (02:23):
There's was, like, a little bit of Caitlin Doughty in
there, which I love.
Pen (02:26):
I--oh, that's cool. I've never actually watched her
stuff, so this is--this is justPen--Pen impressions corner. But
yeah, it's been really nice.
It's been cool to have heraround, and you know, we
were--we were friendsbeforehand. So it's been like,
nice just a vibe together.
Harvey (02:44):
Yeah.
Pen (02:47):
What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week, Harvey?
Harvey (02:50):
That's a good question.
Pen (02:51):
Is it that you're gonna see your boyfriend later?
Harvey (02:54):
No, I'm gonna go with something else, because that's
what I say every time. It's,it's again, kind of difficult to
draw on one, because I've beendealing with another depressive
spell. So..
Pen (03:07):
Uh-oh.
Harvey (03:08):
My entire life has felt like it has sucked for the past
several days. But, um, let methink. I'm on 200 milligrams of
Zoloft now, which is the mostthat they can put me on. But I
mean, it's helped becauseit's--it's helped me feel maybe
a little less like garbage.
Pen (03:28):
That's good. We like less garbage.
Harvey (03:30):
We do like less garbage.
Um, yeah, I think I'm gonna gowith that. I got my
antidepressant dose raised, andthat's really been, like, the
best thing that's happened to methis week.
Pen (03:41):
Well, he--heck yeah.
Harvey (03:43):
Heck.
Pen (03:43):
Censor self. Yep. Self censor. Yeah, I'm glad that you
are, you know, adjusting as youneed to adjust.
Harvey (03:52):
Yeah, now the issue is I need to get back into therapy,
but...
Pen (03:55):
Mm, yeah.
Harvey (03:57):
Anybody... any listener want to call a therapist's
office for me? That is a joke.
Pen (04:04):
Any listener want to write a mental health referral for me
to get my top surgery?
Harvey (04:09):
Hey, me, too.
Pen (04:10):
That's also a joke, but it has been super stressful. Oh!
Harvey (04:15):
Oh!
Pen (04:16):
Anyway.
Harvey (04:17):
Anyway.
Pen (04:18):
Moving on from the current stress of our lives to the--one
of the underlying stress thingswe both--we both suffer from the
gifted kid--kid syndrome, andjust the burnout of it.
Harvey (04:33):
Gifted kid burnout is so real. And--and, I mean, it's
interesting, the amount ofoverlap that Pen and I have,
because our academic backgroundsare nothing alike at all.
Pen (04:44):
No, it's--it's very different depending on, like,
context of--let's--let's startwith, like, a brief overview of
what we mean by gifted kidsyndrome.
Harvey (04:51):
Of course.
Pen (04:53):
Was there a particular definition that you had, or...?
Harvey (04:56):
Um, I don't know if I did, but really, the way that I
conceptualize it in general, isjust sort of like, this isn't
necessarily a concisedefinition, but gifted kid
syndrome often results from,like, a kid being told over and
over again, like, how smart theyare, and how mature, and how
advanced they are for their age.
And so, they get this tremendouspressure to perform. And
(05:16):
inevitably, when they get intolarger schools, like middle and
high school, and in some cases,their intellect becomes less
competitive, by virtue of thefact that there are just more
people there, you know, itresults in this, like, really
strong psychological burden. Iguess for me, like, I based so
(05:37):
much of my personality aroundbeing smart, so that, when I got
to middle and high school, andthere were so many people who
were smarter than me, I had abit of an identity crisis. And
also, like, wasn't really surewhere my worth lay. So that's
how I--that's how gifted kidsyndrome--that's how I've
(05:58):
conceptualized it, and that'show it looks for me, but...
Pen (06:02):
For me, it's slightly different, and of course, the
context of it, I think, like, ahuge thing is you grew up in
suburb--suburbia. Wow.
Harvey (06:12):
Chicago suburbs, yeah.
Pen (06:13):
Saying that felt so, like, 2000s pop-punk, and I didn't
enjoy it. I grew up in a tiny,tiny town. Very small. So it
was, like, same building, K-12.
So it didn't get bigger. Itreally, really didn't. So for
me, the gifted kid syndromestuff was more, like, you know,
(06:39):
when I was young, I was moreadvanced, like, I was a really
good reader from very young.
Which the system is--the schoolsystem is fully broken. If you
are a good reader, you can justget by so easily in so many
areas. And it doesn't actually,like, mean anything, inherently.
But since the system was stackedin my favor, I was always
(07:02):
treated, you know, like, "Oh,wow, you're so smart," and it
was very easy for me to get verygood grades with very little
effort, and it was a veryothering experience for me.
There wasn't, like, honorsclasses or a gifted track,
because, like, my graduatingclass was, I think under 30
(07:24):
people.
Harvey (07:24):
Oh, wow.
Pen (07:25):
Yeah, the most we ever had was, like, 33, I think, in the
K-12, and it was the samepeople, always. Yeah, so there
wasn't a gifted track, becausethere just, like, where would
you have put it? So I alwaysjust felt very, like, kind of
othered by it, and for a verylong time, and even still now,
when people would call me smart,it would be, like...I didn't
(07:48):
like it. Because to me, itdidn't sound like a compliment.
It sounded like another way thatI was being treated as
different.
Harvey (07:55):
Yeah.
Pen (07:57):
And particularly being a neurodivergent kid, like, that
hit hard. And then, as I gotolder, like, things just
continued to be pretty easy forme until I got super depressed,
and then it was harder for me toput in, like, any kind of
effort, and when things werejust a bit more difficult
for--for me naturally, mygrades, like... well, I would
(08:17):
say my grades tanked, but Igraduated with a 4.125 GPA,
so...
Harvey (08:20):
Well...
Pen (08:21):
Yeah. But I did have difficulty and then my first
semester of college, I failed aclass. And it wasn't because I
couldn't, you know, put in theeffort. It's because I didn't,
because I was super depressed,so I just didn't show up. And
actually facing, like, that kindof adversity for the first time
in my life, I had no skillsfor--like, I didn't know how to
(08:43):
study. I didn't know how to makethe effort to apply myself,
because it had never happenedbefore. And I had this pressure
for as long as I could rememberof, like, you had better get
good grades, or you are failing.
Like, an A was not doing a goodjob, it was meeting the bare
minimum of expectations.
Harvey (09:02):
Yeah. And the expectations that I had to meet
were not quite that stringent,but it was still like--like, an
A It was like, "Oh, hey, goodjob." B was like, "All right."
And then C's like, "Whathappened?" And then, God forbid,
I get a D or an F.
Pen (09:19):
But I think, generally, like, the gifted kid syndrome
tends to be (09:22):
when you are young, you seem very advanced, probably
because the system is broken,possibly because of, like,
trauma that you're experiencing.
Like, some kids genuinely are abit quieter, but if you are told
that you are mature for yourage, because you aren't, you
know, like loud or rambunctious,and you don't necessarily
(09:43):
socialize a lot, or you arereally withdrawn, there's a fair
chance that that's notbecause--that's not a good
thing.
Harvey (09:55):
Right.
Pen (09:55):
It's.. it is a really, really fair chance that's
because of some kind ofdistress. And then, like, you
know, having things[unintelligible], and then when
they are not having no skills todeal with it, depression and
anxiety are really, reallycommon in people who were, like,
gifted kids. And then thatburnout, just, like, is killer.
(10:19):
And then not having copingskills to deal with any of it.
Harvey (10:23):
And you know, it's funny. Now that I'm in college,
like, it hasn't gotten anybetter. I'm somewhat more
comfortable with not gettingperfect grades on everything,
but I got my first B, like, twosemesters ago, like, my first
semester of my junior year ofcollege. Every other class I had
finished with an A or an A-, andI was still cranky about those
(10:44):
A-s. The B really got to me,which is sort of--was sort of, I
think, the wake up call for meto be like, I mean, Harv, what
are you.. you have, like, a 3.9GPA in college.
Pen (10:58):
That's really good.
Harvey (11:00):
Yeah, I think more like 3.94 or something like that. And
like, that's a...
Pen (11:03):
That's really, really good.
Harvey (11:04):
Yeah, that's the thing.
It's a ridiculous GPA, andthat's something that I know,
but I--the way that I wasraised, I'm--I'm inclined to
pick out every imperfection.
Pen (11:17):
Yep.
Harvey (11:18):
And that had to do with--yeah, no, I think--I think
your definition of gifted kidsyndrome works really well. You
know, the idea of, like, beingtold you were smart, possibly
actually being smart, but then,because you were so, quote
unquote, advanced, neverlearning the skills to deal with
failure, because failure was notan option.
Pen (11:38):
Or even, like, socializing, as well.
Harvey (11:40):
Yeah.
Pen (11:41):
Depending on sort of your situation. Like, I didn't learn
a lot of social skills for a lotof reasons, but one of them was
because, like, when you are thekid who does really well in
class, that doesn't win youpoints.
Harvey (11:55):
No, especially in elementary school, for some
reason, when you are good atschool, people think that you're
lame, slash teacher's pet. AndI'm not entirely sure where that
comes from, but...
Pen (12:06):
I think defensiveness, primarily.
Harvey (12:09):
Maybe.
Pen (12:10):
Because there is, like, the view from the administration
and, like, the expectations thatkids are put on that kids who do
well in school are better.
Harvey (12:19):
Oh, yeah, have more worth--mm-hmm.
Pen (12:21):
Yeah. And also, like, the way that we value intelligence.
And again, like I know, we'vesaid it before, and I've said it
several times, already, theschool system is broken.
Harvey (12:31):
It benefits a very particular kind of student.
Pen (12:34):
Yeah, it values, like, one definition of intelligence, and
it is a very narrow definitionof intelligence. And also, it's
just straight up busted. Like,memorization is not an effective
form of learning.
Harvey (12:45):
I didn't fail a single class in middle school. I should
have, because I was not doingany of my homework, and I was so
depressed, but because I'm anincredibly good test taker...
Pen (12:55):
Yep.
Harvey (12:55):
...I got by.
Pen (12:56):
If you are good at taking tests, then you do very well in
school. And it's, like, thefactors that go into whether or
not you are good at taking testsare numerous, and should not be
reflective or indicative of yourrelative intelligence, not to
mention that we shouldn't bevaluing human worth on
intelligence, but...
Harvey (13:12):
Correct. And, you know--and I mean, you can tell
just how much emphasis we placeon testing when,and I speak from
somebody who came from a prettywealthy family, there are entire
classes dedicated to teachingyou how to take standardized
tests. I took one. I had to.
Not--not--not by my school, mymom made me. Made me take an
(13:33):
entire class that met for threehours every week from, like, 3pm
to 6pm, all about how to learnhow to take the SAT. And sure
enough, my score did go up fromthe practice, but I--you
can--you can--I can get more--Ican get more into this later,
but my SAT score was somewherein the 1300s I don't remember
(13:55):
exactly where...
Pen (13:57):
[Whispering] I don't know what that means.
Harvey (13:58):
It's equivalent to, like, a 27 or 28 on the ACT.
Pen (14:00):
Oh, nice! Yeah, I took the ACT, so people--and it's, like,
getting phased out more andmore, so everything's, like, SAT
now, and people say these bignumbers, and I'm like, what?
Harvey (14:11):
You know, we both--we both lived in Illinois, I think
our entire lives, and Illinoisused to use the ACT, but my
year, when I was a junior inhigh school, so 2016-2017...
Pen (14:22):
Yeah.
Harvey (14:23):
That's when they started phasing over to the SAT.
Pen (14:25):
Yes, I remember that. I was the last class to take the ACT,
and the one below me had theoption of either going to a
separate place to take the ACTinstead, or taking the SAT, and
they are, like, a bit different.
Harvey (14:39):
Yeah, like, I think namely the ACT has, like, a
science section and the SAT isjust reading and math.
Pen (14:44):
[Laughter] I'm sorry. It's just that our science department
in the school was so... like, wekept getting different teachers,
and it was super inconsistent,and we got, like, new teachers
all the time, and some of themwere, like, brand new, had never
taught High school before. Mymom used to teach in the high
school level, and while it wasweird to take a class with my
(15:06):
mom, she at least was a goodteacher. She was genuinely the
last good teacher we had forscience.
Harvey (15:13):
Oh, no.
Pen (15:14):
We had her freshman year.
Harvey (15:16):
Oh, yikes.
Pen (15:18):
And so--when--so we all did, like--it was just a super
consistent thing for as long aswe were taking standardized
tests, like, in a lot of thewhole school, we just bombed the
science section. It just wentnowhere. We all--that was
consistently the worst.
Harvey (15:34):
Wowza. That's... but, yeah, all of that to say, I
mean, that really does go toshow just how important testing
is to our conception ofintelligence. And even then, and
I can go a little bit more intothis with my particular
experiences with tracking,particularly because I grew up
in an urban area, and I was inhonors, advanced placement
(15:55):
classes for most of my schoolcareer. Like--I--my friends
legitimately made fun of me formy SAT score, because it was
"low." Right? My friends werescoring 14 and 15 hundreds, and
they were like, "Oh, you got a13-whatever?" Like, okay, dude,
I'm going to Insert StateUniversity. Like, leave me
(16:19):
alone.
Pen (16:19):
Oh, wow, that is--here was something. Here was something.
So they, like, hyped up the ACTfor us since we were in, like,
elementary school.
Harvey (16:28):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (16:29):
Like, it was ridiculous.
Harvey (16:31):
When you--when you're in high school, you're gonna take
this big test, and it's, like,okay.
Pen (16:34):
It's gonna, like, inform the rest of your life.
Harvey (16:36):
And it's like, I'm six.
Pen (16:37):
Once we got past third grade and the ISATs, which I
still remember--like, one timemy--standardized tests are so
weird, because you always get.
like, mints and stuff and--
Harvey (16:48):
Yes!
Pen (16:49):
And I--I know that there are, like, different reasons for
it. Genuinely, the mints aregood and I kind of--I appreciate
it. I--the summer before we met,my neck just, like, fully got
messed up.
Harvey (17:01):
Oh, right.
Pen (17:02):
Well, it was a recurring--it was the
second--like, an injury kind ofcame back. And I, like, just
straight up couldn't move. Andthe way to--that I fixed that,
was by putting Icy Hot on it.
And you know, Icy Hot hasmenthol. And so I put it on, and
just got fully transported andremembered, like, exactly the
last time I had taken astandardized test because it
smelled like wintergreenlifesavers, and I was like,
wh-wh-whaaa?
Harvey (17:27):
No, I remember when I was a kid genuinely getting
really excited to take theISATs.
Pen (17:32):
Was it--was it because of limits? Was it because of a
different reason?
Harvey (17:35):
It was--I don't know what the reason was. I don't
think it was--because when I wasa kid, I hated mint.
Pen (17:39):
Oh.
Harvey (17:41):
But they did give us mints during the SAT, which I
loved. Someone also, whenI--sorry, unrelated--we got a
snack break during the SAT inbetween the reading and the math
section.
Pen (17:54):
There really is nothing better than a snack break.
During a standardized test.
Harvey (17:57):
There was someone who straight up--I was sitting next
to them--brought a full bowl ofkimchi. And I will--there was
also a bird in the fieldhousethat we were taking the SAT in.
I will never forget the time Itook the SAT, because there were
so many wild things happening,but I digress.
Pen (18:14):
No, but, they, like, scared us about the ACT so much, for so
long. And then I took a junioryear, and it happened. And let
me tell any--any listeners wemight have who haven't taken
insert big standardized testshere. It stops impacting your
life within two years,typically. It matters for
(18:35):
college acceptance, and eventhen, like, that's starting to
phase out in some places aswell.
Harvey (18:39):
The university I go to went test blind.
Pen (18:41):
Which, thank God, because, like, I--we'll talk a little bit
more about, you know, racism andclassism and how that impacts
things. And like, genuinely, Ithink gifted kids syndrome tends
to be a pretty white thing...
Harvey (18:53):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (18:54):
...because you know, people of color aren't recognized as
having the ability to be giftedin nearly the same respect.
Harvey (19:03):
Although, what I will say
went to is actually prettyethnically diverse. And
honestly, the majority of thepeople in the honors/AP track in
my school work folks of color.
Pen (19:15):
Okay.
Harvey (19:15):
That did mean that the people who I knew who were folks
of color and were trackedhonors/AP felt even more
pressure to perform.
Pen (19:23):
That is a really good point. Like, it definitely
impacts differently, dependingon--on your race--race and
ethnicity, which is reallyjust--that's barely a statement,
because that's life.
Harvey (19:34):
Yeah.
Pen (19:35):
That's every aspect of your life.
Harvey (19:36):
[Sarcastically] Shockingly.
Pen (19:38):
But yeah, like, I ended up going to a community college
because I graduated top 10% ofmy class, and the local
community college had a dealwhere if you were in the top
10%, you got 32 credit hours.
Harvey (19:49):
Oh, dang.
Pen (19:50):
And I--it wasn't originally what I was going to do. I'm not
going to talk about all that.
But I went and I did that, andbecause of that, when I applied
to other universities, my ACTjust did not matter at all.
Harvey (20:04):
Oh, yeah, if you go to community college, it literally
does not matter.
Pen (20:07):
Like, yeah, it doesn't affect any of that. And then
they weren't looking at my highschool stuff because I was
transferring from CommunityCollege. Like, it's possible
some universities would havecared. The one that I
transferred to didn't at all. Itook the ACT. It has impacted my
life approximately 0% because Ididn't go straight to a four
year, but I would have gottenbetter financial aid stuff,
(20:27):
which is just another thingabout classism and [sharp
inhale].
Harvey (20:31):
And even I went straight to a four year, and my SAT score
has not meant anything since Igot accepted.
Pen (20:38):
Which is infuriating, because they scared us about it
so much. Like, "It's going toimpact your life." And I'm like,
it did not I got a 32 on theACT, which is a pretty good
score. I did not deserve it, ismy statement, or at least, it
just proves that standardizedtesting is broken, because I
didn't--I did not study in highschool. I think I could count
(21:00):
the number of times I studiedfor a test in high school.
Harvey (21:03):
For anyone who's not familiar with the ACT, anything
over a 30 is, like, kind ofridiculous.
Pen (21:07):
I think it goes to, like, 36?
Harvey (21:09):
36, yeah.
Pen (21:09):
Yeah. And like I said, Everyone--science section, I
think, was just, like, the lowscore for everyone. And, like,
getting a 32 on the ACT, like,"Wow, that was a good job, Pen!"
It has impacted my life zero. Itdoesn't--it does not matter at
all, and I was so stressed aboutit.
Harvey (21:29):
And I remember my teachers in high school, because
I was, you know, therewere--there were semesters where
I was taking only honors and APclasses.
Pen (21:36):
That sounds, like, miserable.
Harvey (21:38):
It was I was super depressed in high school.
Pen (21:41):
I've never envied an honors kid.
Harvey (21:45):
You shouldn't. We don't have a good time.
Pen (21:47):
No!
Harvey (21:49):
It's, um, you know, I remember our high school
teachers put so much pressure onus to do well, because I know
that like, you know, it's statefunding, and, like, they
get--they get a certain amountof money based on, you know, how
well schools are doing, which isanother can of worms. Yeah,
because that means that--becausestandardized testing is
(22:10):
inherently racist, for reasonswe can get into later, and...
Pen (22:15):
Or perhaps in another episode, depending on the time
that we have.
Harvey (22:18):
Yeah, um, you know, because standardized testing is
inherently racist, that's goingto mean that communities
primarily with people of colorare going to perform lower and
then, therefore, they're goingto get less funding, and it is a
vicious, white supremacistcycle.
Pen (22:33):
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Harvey (22:36):
I was going to--oh, yeah, I remember, like, my high
school teachers put so muchpressure on us to perform as
well as humanly possible. Andyou know, they would always come
back to that rhetoric that'slike, "And your college
professors are not going to bethis kind you." Whereas,
literally--I can literally emailone of my professors and be
like, "Hey, Amanda, I'mdepressed. Can I like--can I
just like, not come to class?"And she's like, "Yeah, I hope
(22:57):
you're feeling okay." It'slike...
Pen (22:59):
Yeah, the range of college professors is truly an
incredible thing. Because someof them really are, like, quite
strict on things, and veryparticular.
Harvey (23:06):
And it's like, "That's rough, buddy. If you don't show
up to class, I'm failing you."And it's like, okay!
Pen (23:11):
Okay, don't. Yeah, it really is just totally--but
then, so many professors are alittle bit more kind of middling
and, like, the, "I mean, if youdon't come to class, you might
lose, like, points or something.
But also, this seems like yourproblem, not mine." And then you
have professors on the other endof the spectrum, where they're
either very, very kind andunderstanding, or they literally
do not care. Like, it is just,this is--you can do whatever you
(23:34):
want. They're not going to meetyou in the middle, but it's
because there's, like, this wallbetween the two of you, where
they're just doing whatever theywant to do.
Harvey (23:44):
And you're going to do whatever you want to do. Because
I'm thinking, Dr. Littauer,she's definitely the end of that
spectrum that's, like, oh,really chill. Really cool. Then
I think about, like, Dr. Pillow,that I took several semesters
ago, who just--he--like, Isigned an email about my
pronouns, and he never evenreferred to me. Not once.
Pen (24:03):
Never refer to me. Yeah, I've definitely had instructors
where I've, like, you know, sentthem the pronouns email, because
you know, you have to, becausewhen you are nonbinary, that is
your one option if you don'twant to be misgendered in class.
Even though they still misgenderyou in class.
Harvey (24:17):
They will never stop misgendering you in class.
Pen (24:19):
They will never stop, like emailing some, and they're just
like, don't say anything, orsome of them send back like,
"Okay, thanks. Sent from myiPhone."
Harvey (24:27):
Yeah.
Pen (24:28):
And some of them are like, "Thank you very much. I'll do my
best on all of this." And it'slike, yeah, you know, sure,
sure.
Harvey (24:35):
Sure, you will.
Pen (24:36):
Sure. But the idea that, like, "Well, your--your college
professors are going to be muchharder on you than this."
Harvey (24:42):
No.
Pen (24:42):
How long has it been since you were in college? Did you
talk to any of them? Because Idon't think you actually know
what you're talking about.
Harvey (24:49):
Yeah, but I just--I guess if we wanted to talk a
little bit more about ourpersonal experiences. You know,
do you want to start us off, ordo you want me to do it?
Pen (25:00):
I'm fine either way, really.
Harvey (25:02):
Because I definitely--I always have thoughts about
tracking.
Pen (25:06):
I only kind of know what tracking is. So how about we
start with you, buddy?
Harvey (25:10):
Yeah, I thought you called me Betty for a second.
Pen (25:13):
You're not Betty.
Harvey (25:13):
I am not Betty.
Pen (25:14):
You're Harvey.
Harvey (25:15):
I'm Harvey. So tracking is essentially this--this
concept, particularly in moreurban and suburban school
systems, where there areessentially two, sometimes
three, tracks that--of, like, aseries of academics that--that a
student might follow. So if youconsider high school and middle
(25:37):
school, really, classes ashaving three different levels,
you have remedial, you havestandard, and you have advanced.
Generally speaking, once astudent is on one of those
tracks, it is very unlikely thatthey will move between.
Pen (25:53):
Hmm, that's broken.
Harvey (25:54):
That is broken. It also sounds a lot like economic
class.
Pen (26:00):
Yep, yep, yep. I--for a second, I thought you meant,
like, a class your take oneconomics, and I was like, never
took an economics class, so I'llhave to take your word for it,
but...
Harvey (26:09):
No, no.
Like--like--like, you know...
[crosstalk]
Pen (26:15):
The inherent classism in the American school system.
[Clears throat]
Harvey (26:18):
So that is--that is an issue. And as you might imagine,
those remedial classes aredisproportionately composed of
students of color, which is...
Pen (26:28):
Low income families, generally.
Harvey (26:30):
And low income--and low income families, which is a
reflection, really, of classismand racism. Never, ever use that
fact to argue that nonwhitefolks are not as smart, or that
lower class folks are not assmart. It's because the system
does not give them anyattention.
Pen (26:47):
Yep. And that remains true.
Like, if you're in a lowerincome area, generally,
typically, the schoolsystem--like, it doesn't score
as high. Gee, I wonder why?
Maybe because we don't have anykind of funding, and no teachers
want to come here to teach, muchless good ones.
Harvey (27:01):
Right. Yeah. So, you know, I--I was supposed to be on
the advanced track pretty young.
Probably, you know, obviously, Idon't have a diagnosis, but if I
were diagnosed with autism whenI was a kid, I likely--when it
was still a diagnosis--I likelywould have been diagnosed with
Asperger's, because I didn'treally have too many of the
(27:24):
cognitive impairments. Like, youknow, learning was not hard for
me. It was the social aspect,and I struggled a lot with that.
I struggled a lot withinteracting with people. But I
was like, really, quote unquote,smart. And initially, they were
going to transfer me to anotherschool, because my current
elementary--the elementaryschool that I was attending at
(27:46):
the time didn't have anyadvanced class options. But,
because I also starteddeveloping symptoms of anxiety
when I was, like, eight or nine,the school decided that it would
be best if I did not transfer.
And honestly, I think they wereright about that one. I think it
would have been a lot worse forme had I transferred.
But in any case, I went straightinto honors when I was--into
(28:08):
honors classes when I was insixth grade. Every single class
I took sixth, seventh, eighthgrade was an honors class. Fun
fact, this is something that Itell folks a lot, I've actually,
more or less, taken theequivalent of algebra--Algebra 1
three times, because I wasreally, really, really bad at
(28:29):
math. I really struggled withmath. And I took the equivalent
of Algebra 1, seventh grade,barely passed that. I think I
got--I think I passed with a D.
Like, I had, like, a 68% orsomething like that. Eighth
grade, passed the equivalent ofAlgebra 1 with a C. And then, in
high school, passed Algebra 1with an A, so it took me a
(28:50):
couple years, but in any case,like, I was put on that track
for a while, and you know, evenwhen I was in, you know, my
guidance counselor's officebeing like, I don't think I
should be in honors math. Theywere like, "Well, just stick it
out for another year, and let'ssee what happens," and it's
like...
Pen (29:05):
Stop.
Harvey (29:06):
My mental health is falling apart at the seams, and
there was so much impostersyndrome in that for me.
Pen (29:14):
Yep.
Harvey (29:15):
I never, ever, ever felt like I belonged in those
classes, especially if they hadanything to do with math or
science. Actually, generally, Iwasn't in honors science. I
ended up having to drop to--no,I took honors chemistry. Nope,
nevermind, I did--I rememberedjust now that I also took--every
single--every single scienceclass I took was also honors or
(29:35):
AP. Never mind.
Pen (29:36):
Sorry, I just--oh, cool. AP and honors are different things.
This is--genuinely, you talkabout this stuff, and it's like
you're speaking either, like, adifferent dialect of English, or
you're just speaking like you'refrom a different country from
me, because I don't understand.
Harvey (29:52):
Okay, so, oh, go ahead.
Pen (29:54):
No, I was gonna say you were like, "I think I took
honors chemistry," and I was,like, just--my first thought
was, I took chemistry with asub. We had a substitute teacher
the whole year. She was notqualified to teach chemistry. I
essentially did not takechemistry, but I sure have the
credit for it.
Harvey (30:10):
So essentially, the difference between honors and
AP (30:13):
Honors is typically something that happens more
within a school. So, a schoolcan decide to offer a regular
and then, like, an honorssection of a class. And you
know, that honors section willbe open to students who are,
quote unquote, advanced enoughfor it. AP is something that
is--is something that isregulated by the College Board,
(30:34):
and the College Board is--arethe same folks who do the ACT
and the SAT.
Pen (30:37):
They're--I have decided, with very limited understanding
of them, that I hate them.
Harvey (30:45):
Oh, yeah. And AP--the thing that really sets honors
apart from AP, is that taking APclasses, it's--well, one,
essentially, an AP class isequivalent, more or less, to an
intro class in college, exceptspread across an entire year
instead of a semester. So when Itook AP Psychology when I was a
sophomore in high school, thatwas the equivalent of taking,
(31:06):
like, PSYC 102, at my--at mycurrent university.
Pen (31:10):
Don't do that!
Harvey (31:11):
Yeah, um, no, that was really what it was like. Because
I took PSYC 102. I would havegotten the credit for it, but
somehow that score I got on APPsych, like, just got lost
somewhere.
Pen (31:22):
Oh, right. There's weird tests that you guys take.
Harvey (31:25):
Yeah.
Pen (31:25):
You guys talk about this sometimes that I'm just,
like--sitting over here like, Ihave no idea.
Harvey (31:30):
So that's the other part/quote unquote, benefit of
AP (31:33):
You can pay about $100 per test, yes, it's paid.
Pen (31:38):
Well, there we go.
Harvey (31:39):
You can pay about $100 per test to take a standardized
test on the class that you tookthe AP class for.
Pen (31:47):
Wow.
Harvey (31:48):
So, and if you score--and at least in the state
of Illinois--if--it gets scoredon a 1 to 5 scale, a 5 being the
highest, 1 being the lowest.
Pen (31:58):
Uh-huh.
Harvey (31:58):
If you score a 3, 4, or 5, legally, any state university
in the state of Illinois isrequired to give you some kind
of credit for it.
Pen (32:10):
So here's the thing that--here's the thought that I
have on the idea of AP coursesthat are essentially, like, a
college course just spread outslightly longer. Well, doubling
the--double the time. Twosemesters instead of one. So
high school students uniformlytake more classes than the vast,
(32:31):
vast, vast majority of collegestudents. Literally just, like,
you take approximately sevenclasses in high school.
Harvey (32:36):
And you're there for, like, seven or eight hours.
Pen (32:38):
Yep. And in college, I took, Oh, geez, like, five or
six classes, maybe? You know,because--and that was, like,
each semester. And obviously,like, the intention is it's more
rigorous in college, et cetera,et cetera. If you are taking the
equivalent of a college course,much less multiple, even if it's
(33:01):
spread out over two semesters,you are doing things more
intensely than you might do onceyou graduate.
Harvey (33:10):
That's the thing. Like, when I'm thinking about my--my
schedule next semester, I onlyhave class three days a week,
and in that entire--in thatentire time, I spend a whopping
14 hours in class a week.
Pen (33:25):
Yeah. High school students do not get free time. They don't
get, like, space to do things.
Like, maybe they're doingcollege coursework over two
semesters instead of one. Theyare in school for approximately
eight hours a day.
Harvey (33:40):
It's--they're doing school as a full time job. And
then, a lot of the time, they'realso being expected to find a
part time job...
Pen (33:46):
Yep.
Harvey (33:46):
...and get extremely good grades.
Pen (33:49):
And participate in extracurricular activities,
because if you don't, even ifyou have very good grades,
you're told that colleges willnot seriously consider you, or
at least that you won't getinto, like, the good stuff.
Harvey (34:00):
And look, here's--here's the secret that I'm going to
tell you about college, if youare, like, a current high school
student (34:05):
no one cares where you went to college.
Pen (34:09):
Where you went to college or high school? Did you mean
college?
Harvey (34:12):
College. I did mean college.
Pen (34:13):
Okay.
Harvey (34:13):
It really does not matter which one you--like, for
a career.
Pen (34:15):
Oh, you mean, like, yeah, for status things. Depend--there
are some situations in which itmatters more, usually because of
elitism.
Harvey (34:21):
Yeah, but...
Pen (34:22):
Like, specifically that, and, like, if you have--sort
of--if you're a legacy kid,
Harvey (34:27):
Yeah. But I am gonna say, 7 to 8 times out of 10, it
doesn't really matter.
Pen (34:31):
No, it's not--there is--I want to say something that's
very important to me that I holdclose. I did not originally want
to go to community college, andthat is a very complicated thing
that I'm not going to get into.
It had nothing to do with thequality of the community
college. I wanted to just, like,be in a different location,
basically.
Harvey (34:49):
Yeah.
Pen (34:50):
Community Colleges tend to get a bad rap as being, like,
not as good. I hate that somuch.
Harvey (34:59):
Yeah.
Pen (34:59):
My community college was great. I had some really, really
excellent teachers there. Like,they were awesome. Maybe not all
community colleges have greatteachers. Not all universities
have great teachers. Can tellyou that 100% for sure.
Harvey (35:12):
I've had plenty of terrible professors at my four
year university, like...
Pen (35:16):
Community colleges are great. They're cheaper.
Harvey (35:19):
Yes.
Pen (35:20):
And it's easier to take, like, summer classes and stuff,
because it's cheaper, and youdon't have to pay, like, the
ridiculous costs of--I've takensummer classes at the university
I graduated from--it was so muchmore expensive. Community
college is more accessible.
You're not required to live oncampus for any portion of it,
and that has, like, mixed--like,some people need to live on a
campus, so it's not there. It'salso more open to non
(35:43):
traditional students, if you'reolder and things. Community
colleges rule...
Harvey (35:48):
Yeah.
Pen (35:49):
...and if you are in a good position, like the one I went to
had deals with every school inthe state that they had to take
their transfer credits. So, Ientered as, functionally, like,
a junior, and it was great. Itwas way cheaper. And I got just
as much good information as Iwould have otherwise.
Harvey (36:07):
Yeah, but you know...
Pen (36:09):
It's shameful.
Harvey (36:10):
Kind of just to wrap up my thoughts, so I can give
you...
Pen (36:12):
Oh, sorry, sorry.
Harvey (36:13):
No, it's okay to--so I can also give you space to talk
about some of your experienceswith gifted kid syndrome.
Every--the overwhelming feelingof every class I was in was that
I was not good enough, was thatI was not smart enough, was that
I was a mediocre performer, andthat I wouldn't be as successful
(36:34):
as my peers. And I still putthat tremendous amount of
pressure on myself to perform,and essentially to be perfect.
And this is going to be theembarrassing thing. I'm actually
really not satisfied with myGPA. I want it to be higher.
Pen (36:51):
Oh, buddy.
Harvey (36:52):
I know. And I know how ridiculous that is and sounds.
But it's--the reason why I bringthat up is because I really want
folks to know how long-lastingthe impacts of putting that kind
of pressure on your childrencauses. I am nearly 21 gosh darn
years old. [Chuckling] I know. Iam nearly 21 years old, and I
(37:17):
still stress about myridiculously good grades. That
is the situation that I'm inbecause my parents and my school
put too much pressure on me.
Pen (37:28):
Yep.
Harvey (37:30):
So, anyway.
Pen (37:31):
So here's the thing, speaking as someone who did not
have a gifted program, or anhonors track, and I'm deeply
grateful for that, from theoutside in--here's a fun fact
about pretty much every, Ifeel--I don't want to make,
like, broad sweeping statements,but I think, like, the majority
of kids who are in advancedprograms, from my understanding,
(37:52):
they're miserable. They getanxiety and depression and are
deeply unhappy, and are under anincredible amount of pressure.
Like, high school students, ingeneral, have way too much
pressure put on them. We'rehurting our kids. We are. We are
harming our children by the waythat we treat them and the way
(38:13):
the system is broken.
Harvey (38:14):
It's like, look, either we need to make the school day
shorter, or we lighten theirworkload, [both] or both.
Pen (38:21):
Go for it. And, you know, reorganizing the system so it's
not [unintelligible] one kind ofintelligence, and also actually
is more functional for learning,because memorization is not a
good form of learning if youreally want to know the things.
From the outside, honors kidsget messed up by the system.
Like, they are miserable. Maybethere are some who are not. I
(38:43):
was not an honors kid, so thisis just from the outside. I was
not an honors kid, I was stillmiserable, because of the
pressures and expectations puton me. I burned out hardcore. I
got wicked depressed in highschool, and always had anxiety
from a much younger age, but thegeneralized anxiety was still
(39:03):
just, like, really high. Andthat was for many reasons that
didn't all have to do with mygrades, but grades were a major
source of stress for me.
I failed a class in college, andhonestly, it was a good thing,
because I got this kind of resetfor myself. Because for the
first time, I was the only onewho got to know my grades. Like,
(39:26):
my parents didn't hold anythingover me because they could just
not know, and thank God forthat. It's FERPA, I think, is
what protects that? And it'sgreat. And then I did, like,
kind of middling, and then Itransferred to university, and
my first semester, at least, waspretty middling, and,
eventually, I did get themotivation to actually really
(39:49):
care about my grades again. AndI'm glad that I did. Like, I
graduated with a pretty goodGPA. I qualified for the honors
thing--like, not fraternity,exactly, but you know, the cool
thing in my major, and I went tolike a couple of meetings then
was like, actually, I want myMonday evenings.
(40:12):
But--and you know, I'm very gladthat I eventually did care more
about my grades. I needed thatperiod of just not caring. Of
just like, it's fine. If youfail, like, well, that's kind of
inconvenient, because then youhave to figure out a different
class to take. But if you get aC, it doesn't matter.
Harvey (40:27):
You passed.
Pen (40:28):
Like, genuinely, it didn't--it was fine, I got Cs,
and--the reason that I did wasbecause I was not doing well. I
was super, super depressed, andthat's not great. But I--that
pressure just lowered sointensely for me, and it was,
one of the better things thathappened to me in college, was
(40:49):
learning how to just let go ofthat overwhelming pressure. And
there's still trauma there.
Like, I think about the gradesthat I got in high school, and
there's just this incredibletension there. But as soon as it
was just my problem, and I gotto decide things about that, and
who to share it with, and who tonot share it with, it helped so
much. The pressure andexpectation to do well never did
(41:14):
me any favors. It messed me upfrom day one.
Don't expect your kids to besmart. Let them just be kids,
please. If they do well, that'sgreat. Support them. Tell them
you are proud of them. And also,if they're not doing well, don't
(41:37):
punish them for that. Try andfigure out what's going on. If
they have a sudden, like, theirgrades start tanking out of
nowhere, care about them. Askthem, like--if you ask them
what's wrong, don't do it like,"What's wrong with you? What's
going on?" say, "Hey, iseverything, like, going okay,
kiddo? Like, are you stressedout? Like, what can I do to help
you with this?"
Harvey (41:58):
And, you know, that's obviously not saying, like,
don't set expectations for yourchild. It's healthy and good for
children to have expectations.
And honestly, it's okay if thoseexpectations are, you know,
like--like, if they are, like,something that would take effort
to achieve.
Pen (42:14):
Absolutely.
Harvey (42:15):
But you can only take that so far. You can't set those
expectations so high thatthey're either inattainable, or
they're going to take atremendous amount of effort to
achieve.
Pen (42:27):
There's nothing wrong with expecting your children to put
an effort to things. Like,that's--that's a good thing. You
know, teach your kids to be ableto do stuff, and teach your kids
to be able to overcomeadversity. Help them to do that.
Teach them to do that, and havethose expectations on them, and
then show them how to. Love yourchildren. Tell them, "Hey, I w
(42:48):
nt you to be able to do thisI will help you to do this. If
ou don't do this, my love willot be taken away from you." Bec
use that's what it gets translted to, especially if you are q
ite gifted, quite young.
our parents love? It is so easyfor that to get linked to these
igh expectations that they hold,and you are scared that, if you
(43:08):
ail, no one will love
Harvey (43:13):
Yep. For me, it was not necessarily that I--I don't know
if I ever consciously had thethought of, like, "Oh, my
parents don't love me if I don'tdo well."
Pen (43:22):
I don't think it's much of a conscious thought.
Harvey (43:24):
They only ever told me--I--not so much my dad.
But--no, my dad was generallybetter about this. But I usually
only got told, and I stillreally only get told that
I--that they're proud of me whenI do well in school. And it's
hard to not conflate that withlove.
Pen (43:44):
Yeah.
Harvey (43:45):
So...
Pen (43:45):
or, at least, like--that was something--here is the thing
for me is I did well in school,and still was never told that
anyone was proud of me. So I gotpunished if I didn't do well.
And if I did well, there was nobenefit. So it was only, like--I
(44:09):
was still kind of searching foraffirmation, and if I messed up
even once than I was going toget the negative. There was not
just a positive reinforcementthat existed. And that's--that's
not unique to me.
Harvey (44:20):
And psychologically speaking, genuinely, punishing
your kids is much less likely toget them to do what you want
them to do than rewarding them.
Pen (44:29):
Like, it's ineffective. It also leads to scared kids. Like,
there's a reason that gifted kidsyndrome is something we talked
about, and gifted kid burnout.
We're broken. It breaks ourbrains. This is not healthy.
It's actively unhealthy, and ithurts us incredibly, and can
continue to do so far too easilyfor the rest of our lives.
Harvey (44:51):
Now, of course, it's--I mean, I think it's at least
partially on me to try and workon...
Pen (44:55):
Oh, totally.
Harvey (44:56):
...to try and work on the feelings that I have.
But--but the--the thing is,like--the thing that caused me
to have such low self-esteem wasnowhere near my fault.
Pen (45:04):
No.
Harvey (45:04):
But I'm the one who has to pick up the pieces.
Pen (45:07):
And, like, the thing about the low self-esteem, and, like,
constant imposter syndrome, and,like, the depression and anxiety
that results from theseexpectations is that not only
are these expectations set andwe are harmed, we are given zero
coping skills to deal with anyof it. Like, if you say, hey,
I'm feeling really overwhelmed,the best you might get is, "Oh,
(45:30):
everyone feels like that."
Harvey (45:31):
Or "You're too young to feel that way."
Pen (45:33):
And it's like, oh, cool. So a total dismissal of my
emotions? So I learned tointernalize them, and suppress
them, and never actually expressany of it, because I know I'm
going to be punished for doingso or at least dismissed? And
that harms me as well, so itjust keeps growing ,and growing,
and bottling up, and eventuallyI crack under the pressure. And
(45:54):
I was lucky that the breakingunder the pressure led to a
depression that did not kill me.
And I'm gonna be real, folks: luck was definitely a factor in (45:57):
undefined
it. Just sheer luck. And hardwork that I did, but we need to
stop doing this to our kids.
Harvey (46:20):
So, we should wrap up?
Do you have any more closingthoughts?
Pen (46:28):
I know I got pretty intense, especially in the
latter half of the episode. Ifyou expect your child to be
smart, or to value themselveswith intelligence, you're not
doing them any favors. Let kidsbe kids. And help your kids. Pay
(46:53):
attention to them. If they'restruggling, it could be for a
number of reasons. And also,hey, let's not--let's--let's
work on the stereotypes thatwe've got, okay? For a lot of
things, including like, youknow, I didn't get into this at
all, but having ADHD is seen assomething that's--you're
(47:14):
probably struggling in schooland that stuff.
Harvey (47:16):
And now the issue with the push toward "differently
abled" rather than disabledmeans that pretty much all
autistic kids are thought of assavants until they act up, and
then, you know, we get calledretards or whatever. So, hmm,
this intersects with disability.
Pen (47:34):
Yeah, it's--it's busted.
Like, one, ADHD kids are notalways going to be struggling in
school. Hi, I just spent 45minutes talking about gifted kid
burnout. But also, you're makingneurodivergent and mentally ill
kids with this. Some of us, likeautistic and ADHD folks, were
born this way. Thanks, LadyGaga. Thank you. And everybody
(47:54):
else, probably gonna haveanxiety and depression. You're
making mentally ill children.
That's not a great system.
Harvey (48:05):
No.
Pen (48:06):
What about you, Harvey? You got any closing thoughts?
Harvey (48:10):
No, I think that pretty much sums up what I would say.
Pen (48:12):
Oh, there's one other thing I wanted to say. If you're in
high school, and if--and/or, ifyou are feeling this, like,
gifted kid syndrome stuff, ifthat's resonating with you,
you're doing good, howeveryou're doing right now, and I am
proud of you. You are--you areputting in so much work, or you
(48:37):
did, and it's okay to loveyourself, and to be proud of
yourself for that, or to justnot want to do it anymore. Like,
you're enough just as you are.
Harvey (48:53):
There's no threshold that decides at what point you
are worthy of love.
Pen (48:56):
No. You are worthy of love right now. You're enough, kid.
Harvey (49:02):
All right. Well. Let's stick around, just a few more
moments, we'll tell you a littlebit more about how this podcast
is run and our Patreon.
Beyond Introspection is anindependently-run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atByndPodcast or you can email us
(49:25):
at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com.
That's beyond d-o-t podcast, nospaces. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description.
Pen (49:41):
We also have a Patreon. You can find us at
patreon.com/beyondintrospection.
That's all one word. We alsohave links to it on our site and
on our social media. Our podcastis entirely independent, so we
pay for hosting fees andtranscript service subscriptions
out of pocket. This is a passionproject that we're really happy
to do, and any support you'reable to give us would really
make a difference.
On our Patreon, there are fourtiers: $2, which gives you
(50:03):
access to test audio and otherbloopers; $5 which will give you
access to bonus episodes thatwill make in the future, on
topics like how angry we are atFreud, our frustrations with our
respective fields of studies andeven guest episodes; $10 will
get you a direct line andpriority access to request
episode topics and new bonuscontent; and $15, which will
(50:24):
give you access to monthlyAMAs--that's ask me anything for
those who don't know--where wecan answer questions ranging
from the podcast process and wefigure out what to record, more
in depth questions about ourneurodivergences, and more. All
of those tiers will includebenefits from lower tiers of
course.
And also, just to note, unlikeour regular episodes, Patreon
bonus content is likely toinclude swearing, so if that's
(50:46):
not your vibe, please know thatahead of time. We'd also love it
if you're able to share thispodcast with people you know.
Our only advertising is word ofmouth and we want to reach as
many people as possible.
Harvey (50:57):
Got feedback for us?
Want to request an episodetopic? Just feel like saying
hello? Feel free to reach out onsocial media, or via email. We'd
love to hear from everyone. Takecare of yourselves.
Welcome to Beyond introspection
mental health, neurodivergenceand how it impacts literally
every aspect of our lives.
Harvey (00:19):
You know the line. All of them.
Pen (00:21):
All of them. I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:23):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:24):
And this week we are going to talk about Gifted Kid
Syndrome.
Harvey (00:28):
Oh, yes.
Pen (00:30):
Yeah.
Harvey (00:31):
You know, we have--Pen and I have a running list of
topics that we--that we want tocover eventually, on this
podcast. And naturally, becausewe're neurodivergent, we don't
plan that much.
Pen (00:45):
No. Oh, God, it's like...
Harvey (00:47):
We talk about an episode, and it's often, like,
the day of, so, like, "Hey, whatare we gonna--what are we going
to talk about?"
Pen (00:52):
What are we talking about though?
Harvey (00:54):
And I was going through and I was like, ooh, gifted kid
syndrome? That would be a cooltopic. And you were like, oogh.
Pen (01:00):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's also--we also tend to add to the
list more than we check thingsoff of it.
Harvey (01:06):
Hey, that means we'll be set for, like, a while.
Pen (01:09):
Yes, that is--that is accurate. But yeah, gifted kid
syndrome, though--wow. It's beena while since we recorded.
Harvey (01:16):
Pen.
Pen (01:17):
Harvey.
Harvey (01:18):
Tell me...
Pen (01:19):
Yes.
Harvey (01:19):
...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen (01:21):
I appreciate you so much.
You are the Wahoo! Moment of mylife.
Harvey (01:26):
Aw, that's gay.
Pen (01:28):
It...
Harvey (01:29):
Well, strictly speaking, is it? No, I'm into men.
Pen (01:33):
Well, if you think about...
Harvey (01:34):
It's not straight.
Pen (01:35):
No, if you think about, though, like, gay as same-gender
attraction, we are bothnonbinary.
Harvey (01:42):
Hmm.
Pen (01:42):
So in that--in that definition...
Harvey (01:46):
I guess it is gay, then.
Pen (01:47):
Yeah.
Harvey (01:47):
Anyway, thank you for the very sweet compliment. I
love you.
Pen (01:49):
You're welcome! I love you too, Harvey.
Harvey (01:51):
I do want to provide another disclaimer that we're
not dating.
Pen (01:53):
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's--yeah, we're not. No,
we're just close, good friends.
My Wahoo! Moment of the Week...
uh... I have a new roommatewho's moving in, and it's very
exciting. I'm very happy aboutit. I work better when I live
with another person, which isnot something I knew about
(02:14):
myself before. But I've learnedlike, oh, when I'm isolated
things go poorly.
Harvey (02:23):
There's was, like, a little bit of Caitlin Doughty in
there, which I love.
Pen (02:26):
I--oh, that's cool. I've never actually watched her
stuff, so this is--this is justPen--Pen impressions corner. But
yeah, it's been really nice.
It's been cool to have heraround, and you know, we
were--we were friendsbeforehand. So it's been like,
nice just a vibe together.
Harvey (02:44):
Yeah.
Pen (02:47):
What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week, Harvey?
Harvey (02:50):
That's a good question.
Pen (02:51):
Is it that you're gonna see your boyfriend later?
Harvey (02:54):
No, I'm gonna go with something else, because that's
what I say every time. It's,it's again, kind of difficult to
draw on one, because I've beendealing with another depressive
spell. So..
Pen (03:07):
Uh-oh.
Harvey (03:08):
My entire life has felt like it has sucked for the past
several days. But, um, let methink. I'm on 200 milligrams of
Zoloft now, which is the mostthat they can put me on. But I
mean, it's helped becauseit's--it's helped me feel maybe
a little less like garbage.
Pen (03:28):
That's good. We like less garbage.
Harvey (03:30):
We do like less garbage.
Um, yeah, I think I'm gonna gowith that. I got my
antidepressant dose raised, andthat's really been, like, the
best thing that's happened to methis week.
Pen (03:41):
Well, he--heck yeah.
Harvey (03:43):
Heck.
Pen (03:43):
Censor self. Yep. Self censor. Yeah, I'm glad that you
are, you know, adjusting as youneed to adjust.
Harvey (03:52):
Yeah, now the issue is I need to get back into therapy,
but...
Pen (03:55):
Mm, yeah.
Harvey (03:57):
Anybody... any listener want to call a therapist's
office for me? That is a joke.
Pen (04:04):
Any listener want to write a mental health referral for me
to get my top surgery?
Harvey (04:09):
Hey, me, too.
Pen (04:10):
That's also a joke, but it has been super stressful. Oh!
Harvey (04:15):
Oh!
Pen (04:16):
Anyway.
Harvey (04:17):
Anyway.
Pen (04:18):
Moving on from the current stress of our lives to the--one
of the underlying stress thingswe both--we both suffer from the
gifted kid--kid syndrome, andjust the burnout of it.
Harvey (04:33):
Gifted kid burnout is so real. And--and, I mean, it's
interesting, the amount ofoverlap that Pen and I have,
because our academic backgroundsare nothing alike at all.
Pen (04:44):
No, it's--it's very different depending on, like,
context of--let's--let's startwith, like, a brief overview of
what we mean by gifted kidsyndrome.
Harvey (04:51):
Of course.
Pen (04:53):
Was there a particular definition that you had, or...?
Harvey (04:56):
Um, I don't know if I did, but really, the way that I
conceptualize it in general, isjust sort of like, this isn't
necessarily a concisedefinition, but gifted kid
syndrome often results from,like, a kid being told over and
over again, like, how smart theyare, and how mature, and how
advanced they are for their age.
And so, they get this tremendouspressure to perform. And
(05:16):
inevitably, when they get intolarger schools, like middle and
high school, and in some cases,their intellect becomes less
competitive, by virtue of thefact that there are just more
people there, you know, itresults in this, like, really
strong psychological burden. Iguess for me, like, I based so
(05:37):
much of my personality aroundbeing smart, so that, when I got
to middle and high school, andthere were so many people who
were smarter than me, I had abit of an identity crisis. And
also, like, wasn't really surewhere my worth lay. So that's
how I--that's how gifted kidsyndrome--that's how I've
(05:58):
conceptualized it, and that'show it looks for me, but...
Pen (06:02):
For me, it's slightly different, and of course, the
context of it, I think, like, ahuge thing is you grew up in
suburb--suburbia. Wow.
Harvey (06:12):
Chicago suburbs, yeah.
Pen (06:13):
Saying that felt so, like, 2000s pop-punk, and I didn't
enjoy it. I grew up in a tiny,tiny town. Very small. So it
was, like, same building, K-12.
So it didn't get bigger. Itreally, really didn't. So for
me, the gifted kid syndromestuff was more, like, you know,
(06:39):
when I was young, I was moreadvanced, like, I was a really
good reader from very young.
Which the system is--the schoolsystem is fully broken. If you
are a good reader, you can justget by so easily in so many
areas. And it doesn't actually,like, mean anything, inherently.
But since the system was stackedin my favor, I was always
(07:02):
treated, you know, like, "Oh,wow, you're so smart," and it
was very easy for me to get verygood grades with very little
effort, and it was a veryothering experience for me.
There wasn't, like, honorsclasses or a gifted track,
because, like, my graduatingclass was, I think under 30
(07:24):
people.
Harvey (07:24):
Oh, wow.
Pen (07:25):
Yeah, the most we ever had was, like, 33, I think, in the
K-12, and it was the samepeople, always. Yeah, so there
wasn't a gifted track, becausethere just, like, where would
you have put it? So I alwaysjust felt very, like, kind of
othered by it, and for a verylong time, and even still now,
when people would call me smart,it would be, like...I didn't
(07:48):
like it. Because to me, itdidn't sound like a compliment.
It sounded like another way thatI was being treated as
different.
Harvey (07:55):
Yeah.
Pen (07:57):
And particularly being a neurodivergent kid, like, that
hit hard. And then, as I gotolder, like, things just
continued to be pretty easy forme until I got super depressed,
and then it was harder for me toput in, like, any kind of
effort, and when things werejust a bit more difficult
for--for me naturally, mygrades, like... well, I would
(08:17):
say my grades tanked, but Igraduated with a 4.125 GPA,
so...
Harvey (08:20):
Well...
Pen (08:21):
Yeah. But I did have difficulty and then my first
semester of college, I failed aclass. And it wasn't because I
couldn't, you know, put in theeffort. It's because I didn't,
because I was super depressed,so I just didn't show up. And
actually facing, like, that kindof adversity for the first time
in my life, I had no skillsfor--like, I didn't know how to
(08:43):
study. I didn't know how to makethe effort to apply myself,
because it had never happenedbefore. And I had this pressure
for as long as I could rememberof, like, you had better get
good grades, or you are failing.
Like, an A was not doing a goodjob, it was meeting the bare
minimum of expectations.
Harvey (09:02):
Yeah. And the expectations that I had to meet
were not quite that stringent,but it was still like--like, an
A It was like, "Oh, hey, goodjob." B was like, "All right."
And then C's like, "Whathappened?" And then, God forbid,
I get a D or an F.
Pen (09:19):
But I think, generally, like, the gifted kid syndrome
tends to be (09:22):
when you are young, you seem very advanced, probably
because the system is broken,possibly because of, like,
trauma that you're experiencing.
Like, some kids genuinely are abit quieter, but if you are told
that you are mature for yourage, because you aren't, you
know, like loud or rambunctious,and you don't necessarily
(09:43):
socialize a lot, or you arereally withdrawn, there's a fair
chance that that's notbecause--that's not a good
thing.
Harvey (09:55):
Right.
Pen (09:55):
It's.. it is a really, really fair chance that's
because of some kind ofdistress. And then, like, you
know, having things[unintelligible], and then when
they are not having no skills todeal with it, depression and
anxiety are really, reallycommon in people who were, like,
gifted kids. And then thatburnout, just, like, is killer.
(10:19):
And then not having copingskills to deal with any of it.
Harvey (10:23):
And you know, it's funny. Now that I'm in college,
like, it hasn't gotten anybetter. I'm somewhat more
comfortable with not gettingperfect grades on everything,
but I got my first B, like, twosemesters ago, like, my first
semester of my junior year ofcollege. Every other class I had
finished with an A or an A-, andI was still cranky about those
(10:44):
A-s. The B really got to me,which is sort of--was sort of, I
think, the wake up call for meto be like, I mean, Harv, what
are you.. you have, like, a 3.9GPA in college.
Pen (10:58):
That's really good.
Harvey (11:00):
Yeah, I think more like 3.94 or something like that. And
like, that's a...
Pen (11:03):
That's really, really good.
Harvey (11:04):
Yeah, that's the thing.
It's a ridiculous GPA, andthat's something that I know,
but I--the way that I wasraised, I'm--I'm inclined to
pick out every imperfection.
Pen (11:17):
Yep.
Harvey (11:18):
And that had to do with--yeah, no, I think--I think
your definition of gifted kidsyndrome works really well. You
know, the idea of, like, beingtold you were smart, possibly
actually being smart, but then,because you were so, quote
unquote, advanced, neverlearning the skills to deal with
failure, because failure was notan option.
Pen (11:38):
Or even, like, socializing, as well.
Harvey (11:40):
Yeah.
Pen (11:41):
Depending on sort of your situation. Like, I didn't learn
a lot of social skills for a lotof reasons, but one of them was
because, like, when you are thekid who does really well in
class, that doesn't win youpoints.
Harvey (11:55):
No, especially in elementary school, for some
reason, when you are good atschool, people think that you're
lame, slash teacher's pet. AndI'm not entirely sure where that
comes from, but...
Pen (12:06):
I think defensiveness, primarily.
Harvey (12:09):
Maybe.
Pen (12:10):
Because there is, like, the view from the administration
and, like, the expectations thatkids are put on that kids who do
well in school are better.
Harvey (12:19):
Oh, yeah, have more worth--mm-hmm.
Pen (12:21):
Yeah. And also, like, the way that we value intelligence.
And again, like I know, we'vesaid it before, and I've said it
several times, already, theschool system is broken.
Harvey (12:31):
It benefits a very particular kind of student.
Pen (12:34):
Yeah, it values, like, one definition of intelligence, and
it is a very narrow definitionof intelligence. And also, it's
just straight up busted. Like,memorization is not an effective
form of learning.
Harvey (12:45):
I didn't fail a single class in middle school. I should
have, because I was not doingany of my homework, and I was so
depressed, but because I'm anincredibly good test taker...
Pen (12:55):
Yep.
Harvey (12:55):
...I got by.
Pen (12:56):
If you are good at taking tests, then you do very well in
school. And it's, like, thefactors that go into whether or
not you are good at taking testsare numerous, and should not be
reflective or indicative of yourrelative intelligence, not to
mention that we shouldn't bevaluing human worth on
intelligence, but...
Harvey (13:12):
Correct. And, you know--and I mean, you can tell
just how much emphasis we placeon testing when,and I speak from
somebody who came from a prettywealthy family, there are entire
classes dedicated to teachingyou how to take standardized
tests. I took one. I had to.
Not--not--not by my school, mymom made me. Made me take an
(13:33):
entire class that met for threehours every week from, like, 3pm
to 6pm, all about how to learnhow to take the SAT. And sure
enough, my score did go up fromthe practice, but I--you
can--you can--I can get more--Ican get more into this later,
but my SAT score was somewherein the 1300s I don't remember
(13:55):
exactly where...
Pen (13:57):
[Whispering] I don't know what that means.
Harvey (13:58):
It's equivalent to, like, a 27 or 28 on the ACT.
Pen (14:00):
Oh, nice! Yeah, I took the ACT, so people--and it's, like,
getting phased out more andmore, so everything's, like, SAT
now, and people say these bignumbers, and I'm like, what?
Harvey (14:11):
You know, we both--we both lived in Illinois, I think
our entire lives, and Illinoisused to use the ACT, but my
year, when I was a junior inhigh school, so 2016-2017...
Pen (14:22):
Yeah.
Harvey (14:23):
That's when they started phasing over to the SAT.
Pen (14:25):
Yes, I remember that. I was the last class to take the ACT,
and the one below me had theoption of either going to a
separate place to take the ACTinstead, or taking the SAT, and
they are, like, a bit different.
Harvey (14:39):
Yeah, like, I think namely the ACT has, like, a
science section and the SAT isjust reading and math.
Pen (14:44):
[Laughter] I'm sorry. It's just that our science department
in the school was so... like, wekept getting different teachers,
and it was super inconsistent,and we got, like, new teachers
all the time, and some of themwere, like, brand new, had never
taught High school before. Mymom used to teach in the high
school level, and while it wasweird to take a class with my
(15:06):
mom, she at least was a goodteacher. She was genuinely the
last good teacher we had forscience.
Harvey (15:13):
Oh, no.
Pen (15:14):
We had her freshman year.
Harvey (15:16):
Oh, yikes.
Pen (15:18):
And so--when--so we all did, like--it was just a super
consistent thing for as long aswe were taking standardized
tests, like, in a lot of thewhole school, we just bombed the
science section. It just wentnowhere. We all--that was
consistently the worst.
Harvey (15:34):
Wowza. That's... but, yeah, all of that to say, I
mean, that really does go toshow just how important testing
is to our conception ofintelligence. And even then, and
I can go a little bit more intothis with my particular
experiences with tracking,particularly because I grew up
in an urban area, and I was inhonors, advanced placement
(15:55):
classes for most of my schoolcareer. Like--I--my friends
legitimately made fun of me formy SAT score, because it was
"low." Right? My friends werescoring 14 and 15 hundreds, and
they were like, "Oh, you got a13-whatever?" Like, okay, dude,
I'm going to Insert StateUniversity. Like, leave me
(16:19):
alone.
Pen (16:19):
Oh, wow, that is--here was something. Here was something.
So they, like, hyped up the ACTfor us since we were in, like,
elementary school.
Harvey (16:28):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (16:29):
Like, it was ridiculous.
Harvey (16:31):
When you--when you're in high school, you're gonna take
this big test, and it's, like,okay.
Pen (16:34):
It's gonna, like, inform the rest of your life.
Harvey (16:36):
And it's like, I'm six.
Pen (16:37):
Once we got past third grade and the ISATs, which I
still remember--like, one timemy--standardized tests are so
weird, because you always get.
like, mints and stuff and--
Harvey (16:48):
Yes!
Pen (16:49):
And I--I know that there are, like, different reasons for
it. Genuinely, the mints aregood and I kind of--I appreciate
it. I--the summer before we met,my neck just, like, fully got
messed up.
Harvey (17:01):
Oh, right.
Pen (17:02):
Well, it was a recurring--it was the
second--like, an injury kind ofcame back. And I, like, just
straight up couldn't move. Andthe way to--that I fixed that,
was by putting Icy Hot on it.
And you know, Icy Hot hasmenthol. And so I put it on, and
just got fully transported andremembered, like, exactly the
last time I had taken astandardized test because it
smelled like wintergreenlifesavers, and I was like,
wh-wh-whaaa?
Harvey (17:27):
No, I remember when I was a kid genuinely getting
really excited to take theISATs.
Pen (17:32):
Was it--was it because of limits? Was it because of a
different reason?
Harvey (17:35):
It was--I don't know what the reason was. I don't
think it was--because when I wasa kid, I hated mint.
Pen (17:39):
Oh.
Harvey (17:41):
But they did give us mints during the SAT, which I
loved. Someone also, whenI--sorry, unrelated--we got a
snack break during the SAT inbetween the reading and the math
section.
Pen (17:54):
There really is nothing better than a snack break.
During a standardized test.
Harvey (17:57):
There was someone who straight up--I was sitting next
to them--brought a full bowl ofkimchi. And I will--there was
also a bird in the fieldhousethat we were taking the SAT in.
I will never forget the time Itook the SAT, because there were
so many wild things happening,but I digress.
Pen (18:14):
No, but, they, like, scared us about the ACT so much, for so
long. And then I took a junioryear, and it happened. And let
me tell any--any listeners wemight have who haven't taken
insert big standardized testshere. It stops impacting your
life within two years,typically. It matters for
(18:35):
college acceptance, and eventhen, like, that's starting to
phase out in some places aswell.
Harvey (18:39):
The university I go to went test blind.
Pen (18:41):
Which, thank God, because, like, I--we'll talk a little bit
more about, you know, racism andclassism and how that impacts
things. And like, genuinely, Ithink gifted kids syndrome tends
to be a pretty white thing...
Harvey (18:53):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (18:54):
...because you know, people of color aren't recognized as
having the ability to be giftedin nearly the same respect.
Harvey (19:03):
Although, what I will say
went to is actually prettyethnically diverse. And
honestly, the majority of thepeople in the honors/AP track in
my school work folks of color.
Pen (19:15):
Okay.
Harvey (19:15):
That did mean that the people who I knew who were folks
of color and were trackedhonors/AP felt even more
pressure to perform.
Pen (19:23):
That is a really good point. Like, it definitely
impacts differently, dependingon--on your race--race and
ethnicity, which is reallyjust--that's barely a statement,
because that's life.
Harvey (19:34):
Yeah.
Pen (19:35):
That's every aspect of your life.
Harvey (19:36):
[Sarcastically] Shockingly.
Pen (19:38):
But yeah, like, I ended up going to a community college
because I graduated top 10% ofmy class, and the local
community college had a dealwhere if you were in the top
10%, you got 32 credit hours.
Harvey (19:49):
Oh, dang.
Pen (19:50):
And I--it wasn't originally what I was going to do. I'm not
going to talk about all that.
But I went and I did that, andbecause of that, when I applied
to other universities, my ACTjust did not matter at all.
Harvey (20:04):
Oh, yeah, if you go to community college, it literally
does not matter.
Pen (20:07):
Like, yeah, it doesn't affect any of that. And then
they weren't looking at my highschool stuff because I was
transferring from CommunityCollege. Like, it's possible
some universities would havecared. The one that I
transferred to didn't at all. Itook the ACT. It has impacted my
life approximately 0% because Ididn't go straight to a four
year, but I would have gottenbetter financial aid stuff,
(20:27):
which is just another thingabout classism and [sharp
inhale].
Harvey (20:31):
And even I went straight to a four year, and my SAT score
has not meant anything since Igot accepted.
Pen (20:38):
Which is infuriating, because they scared us about it
so much. Like, "It's going toimpact your life." And I'm like,
it did not I got a 32 on theACT, which is a pretty good
score. I did not deserve it, ismy statement, or at least, it
just proves that standardizedtesting is broken, because I
didn't--I did not study in highschool. I think I could count
(21:00):
the number of times I studiedfor a test in high school.
Harvey (21:03):
For anyone who's not familiar with the ACT, anything
over a 30 is, like, kind ofridiculous.
Pen (21:07):
I think it goes to, like, 36?
Harvey (21:09):
36, yeah.
Pen (21:09):
Yeah. And like I said, Everyone--science section, I
think, was just, like, the lowscore for everyone. And, like,
getting a 32 on the ACT, like,"Wow, that was a good job, Pen!"
It has impacted my life zero. Itdoesn't--it does not matter at
all, and I was so stressed aboutit.
Harvey (21:29):
And I remember my teachers in high school, because
I was, you know, therewere--there were semesters where
I was taking only honors and APclasses.
Pen (21:36):
That sounds, like, miserable.
Harvey (21:38):
It was I was super depressed in high school.
Pen (21:41):
I've never envied an honors kid.
Harvey (21:45):
You shouldn't. We don't have a good time.
Pen (21:47):
No!
Harvey (21:49):
It's, um, you know, I remember our high school
teachers put so much pressure onus to do well, because I know
that like, you know, it's statefunding, and, like, they
get--they get a certain amountof money based on, you know, how
well schools are doing, which isanother can of worms. Yeah,
because that means that--becausestandardized testing is
(22:10):
inherently racist, for reasonswe can get into later, and...
Pen (22:15):
Or perhaps in another episode, depending on the time
that we have.
Harvey (22:18):
Yeah, um, you know, because standardized testing is
inherently racist, that's goingto mean that communities
primarily with people of colorare going to perform lower and
then, therefore, they're goingto get less funding, and it is a
vicious, white supremacistcycle.
Pen (22:33):
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Harvey (22:36):
I was going to--oh, yeah, I remember, like, my high
school teachers put so muchpressure on us to perform as
well as humanly possible. Andyou know, they would always come
back to that rhetoric that'slike, "And your college
professors are not going to bethis kind you." Whereas,
literally--I can literally emailone of my professors and be
like, "Hey, Amanda, I'mdepressed. Can I like--can I
just like, not come to class?"And she's like, "Yeah, I hope
(22:57):
you're feeling okay." It'slike...
Pen (22:59):
Yeah, the range of college professors is truly an
incredible thing. Because someof them really are, like, quite
strict on things, and veryparticular.
Harvey (23:06):
And it's like, "That's rough, buddy. If you don't show
up to class, I'm failing you."And it's like, okay!
Pen (23:11):
Okay, don't. Yeah, it really is just totally--but
then, so many professors are alittle bit more kind of middling
and, like, the, "I mean, if youdon't come to class, you might
lose, like, points or something.
But also, this seems like yourproblem, not mine." And then you
have professors on the other endof the spectrum, where they're
either very, very kind andunderstanding, or they literally
do not care. Like, it is just,this is--you can do whatever you
(23:34):
want. They're not going to meetyou in the middle, but it's
because there's, like, this wallbetween the two of you, where
they're just doing whatever theywant to do.
Harvey (23:44):
And you're going to do whatever you want to do. Because
I'm thinking, Dr. Littauer,she's definitely the end of that
spectrum that's, like, oh,really chill. Really cool. Then
I think about, like, Dr. Pillow,that I took several semesters
ago, who just--he--like, Isigned an email about my
pronouns, and he never evenreferred to me. Not once.
Pen (24:03):
Never refer to me. Yeah, I've definitely had instructors
where I've, like, you know, sentthem the pronouns email, because
you know, you have to, becausewhen you are nonbinary, that is
your one option if you don'twant to be misgendered in class.
Even though they still misgenderyou in class.
Harvey (24:17):
They will never stop misgendering you in class.
Pen (24:19):
They will never stop, like emailing some, and they're just
like, don't say anything, orsome of them send back like,
"Okay, thanks. Sent from myiPhone."
Harvey (24:27):
Yeah.
Pen (24:28):
And some of them are like, "Thank you very much. I'll do my
best on all of this." And it'slike, yeah, you know, sure,
sure.
Harvey (24:35):
Sure, you will.
Pen (24:36):
Sure. But the idea that, like, "Well, your--your college
professors are going to be muchharder on you than this."
Harvey (24:42):
No.
Pen (24:42):
How long has it been since you were in college? Did you
talk to any of them? Because Idon't think you actually know
what you're talking about.
Harvey (24:49):
Yeah, but I just--I guess if we wanted to talk a
little bit more about ourpersonal experiences. You know,
do you want to start us off, ordo you want me to do it?
Pen (25:00):
I'm fine either way, really.
Harvey (25:02):
Because I definitely--I always have thoughts about
tracking.
Pen (25:06):
I only kind of know what tracking is. So how about we
start with you, buddy?
Harvey (25:10):
Yeah, I thought you called me Betty for a second.
Pen (25:13):
You're not Betty.
Harvey (25:13):
I am not Betty.
Pen (25:14):
You're Harvey.
Harvey (25:15):
I'm Harvey. So tracking is essentially this--this
concept, particularly in moreurban and suburban school
systems, where there areessentially two, sometimes
three, tracks that--of, like, aseries of academics that--that a
student might follow. So if youconsider high school and middle
(25:37):
school, really, classes ashaving three different levels,
you have remedial, you havestandard, and you have advanced.
Generally speaking, once astudent is on one of those
tracks, it is very unlikely thatthey will move between.
Pen (25:53):
Hmm, that's broken.
Harvey (25:54):
That is broken. It also sounds a lot like economic
class.
Pen (26:00):
Yep, yep, yep. I--for a second, I thought you meant,
like, a class your take oneconomics, and I was like, never
took an economics class, so I'llhave to take your word for it,
but...
Harvey (26:09):
No, no.
Like--like--like, you know...
[crosstalk]
Pen (26:15):
The inherent classism in the American school system.
[Clears throat]
Harvey (26:18):
So that is--that is an issue. And as you might imagine,
those remedial classes aredisproportionately composed of
students of color, which is...
Pen (26:28):
Low income families, generally.
Harvey (26:30):
And low income--and low income families, which is a
reflection, really, of classismand racism. Never, ever use that
fact to argue that nonwhitefolks are not as smart, or that
lower class folks are not assmart. It's because the system
does not give them anyattention.
Pen (26:47):
Yep. And that remains true.
Like, if you're in a lowerincome area, generally,
typically, the schoolsystem--like, it doesn't score
as high. Gee, I wonder why?
Maybe because we don't have anykind of funding, and no teachers
want to come here to teach, muchless good ones.
Harvey (27:01):
Right. Yeah. So, you know, I--I was supposed to be on
the advanced track pretty young.
Probably, you know, obviously, Idon't have a diagnosis, but if I
were diagnosed with autism whenI was a kid, I likely--when it
was still a diagnosis--I likelywould have been diagnosed with
Asperger's, because I didn'treally have too many of the
(27:24):
cognitive impairments. Like, youknow, learning was not hard for
me. It was the social aspect,and I struggled a lot with that.
I struggled a lot withinteracting with people. But I
was like, really, quote unquote,smart. And initially, they were
going to transfer me to anotherschool, because my current
elementary--the elementaryschool that I was attending at
(27:46):
the time didn't have anyadvanced class options. But,
because I also starteddeveloping symptoms of anxiety
when I was, like, eight or nine,the school decided that it would
be best if I did not transfer.
And honestly, I think they wereright about that one. I think it
would have been a lot worse forme had I transferred.
But in any case, I went straightinto honors when I was--into
(28:08):
honors classes when I was insixth grade. Every single class
I took sixth, seventh, eighthgrade was an honors class. Fun
fact, this is something that Itell folks a lot, I've actually,
more or less, taken theequivalent of algebra--Algebra 1
three times, because I wasreally, really, really bad at
(28:29):
math. I really struggled withmath. And I took the equivalent
of Algebra 1, seventh grade,barely passed that. I think I
got--I think I passed with a D.
Like, I had, like, a 68% orsomething like that. Eighth
grade, passed the equivalent ofAlgebra 1 with a C. And then, in
high school, passed Algebra 1with an A, so it took me a
(28:50):
couple years, but in any case,like, I was put on that track
for a while, and you know, evenwhen I was in, you know, my
guidance counselor's officebeing like, I don't think I
should be in honors math. Theywere like, "Well, just stick it
out for another year, and let'ssee what happens," and it's
like...
Pen (29:05):
Stop.
Harvey (29:06):
My mental health is falling apart at the seams, and
there was so much impostersyndrome in that for me.
Pen (29:14):
Yep.
Harvey (29:15):
I never, ever, ever felt like I belonged in those
classes, especially if they hadanything to do with math or
science. Actually, generally, Iwasn't in honors science. I
ended up having to drop to--no,I took honors chemistry. Nope,
nevermind, I did--I rememberedjust now that I also took--every
single--every single scienceclass I took was also honors or
(29:35):
AP. Never mind.
Pen (29:36):
Sorry, I just--oh, cool. AP and honors are different things.
This is--genuinely, you talkabout this stuff, and it's like
you're speaking either, like, adifferent dialect of English, or
you're just speaking like you'refrom a different country from
me, because I don't understand.
Harvey (29:52):
Okay, so, oh, go ahead.
Pen (29:54):
No, I was gonna say you were like, "I think I took
honors chemistry," and I was,like, just--my first thought
was, I took chemistry with asub. We had a substitute teacher
the whole year. She was notqualified to teach chemistry. I
essentially did not takechemistry, but I sure have the
credit for it.
Harvey (30:10):
So essentially, the difference between honors and
AP (30:13):
Honors is typically something that happens more
within a school. So, a schoolcan decide to offer a regular
and then, like, an honorssection of a class. And you
know, that honors section willbe open to students who are,
quote unquote, advanced enoughfor it. AP is something that
is--is something that isregulated by the College Board,
(30:34):
and the College Board is--arethe same folks who do the ACT
and the SAT.
Pen (30:37):
They're--I have decided, with very limited understanding
of them, that I hate them.
Harvey (30:45):
Oh, yeah. And AP--the thing that really sets honors
apart from AP, is that taking APclasses, it's--well, one,
essentially, an AP class isequivalent, more or less, to an
intro class in college, exceptspread across an entire year
instead of a semester. So when Itook AP Psychology when I was a
sophomore in high school, thatwas the equivalent of taking,
(31:06):
like, PSYC 102, at my--at mycurrent university.
Pen (31:10):
Don't do that!
Harvey (31:11):
Yeah, um, no, that was really what it was like. Because
I took PSYC 102. I would havegotten the credit for it, but
somehow that score I got on APPsych, like, just got lost
somewhere.
Pen (31:22):
Oh, right. There's weird tests that you guys take.
Harvey (31:25):
Yeah.
Pen (31:25):
You guys talk about this sometimes that I'm just,
like--sitting over here like, Ihave no idea.
Harvey (31:30):
So that's the other part/quote unquote, benefit of
AP (31:33):
You can pay about $100 per test, yes, it's paid.
Pen (31:38):
Well, there we go.
Harvey (31:39):
You can pay about $100 per test to take a standardized
test on the class that you tookthe AP class for.
Pen (31:47):
Wow.
Harvey (31:48):
So, and if you score--and at least in the state
of Illinois--if--it gets scoredon a 1 to 5 scale, a 5 being the
highest, 1 being the lowest.
Pen (31:58):
Uh-huh.
Harvey (31:58):
If you score a 3, 4, or 5, legally, any state university
in the state of Illinois isrequired to give you some kind
of credit for it.
Pen (32:10):
So here's the thing that--here's the thought that I
have on the idea of AP coursesthat are essentially, like, a
college course just spread outslightly longer. Well, doubling
the--double the time. Twosemesters instead of one. So
high school students uniformlytake more classes than the vast,
(32:31):
vast, vast majority of collegestudents. Literally just, like,
you take approximately sevenclasses in high school.
Harvey (32:36):
And you're there for, like, seven or eight hours.
Pen (32:38):
Yep. And in college, I took, Oh, geez, like, five or
six classes, maybe? You know,because--and that was, like,
each semester. And obviously,like, the intention is it's more
rigorous in college, et cetera,et cetera. If you are taking the
equivalent of a college course,much less multiple, even if it's
(33:01):
spread out over two semesters,you are doing things more
intensely than you might do onceyou graduate.
Harvey (33:10):
That's the thing. Like, when I'm thinking about my--my
schedule next semester, I onlyhave class three days a week,
and in that entire--in thatentire time, I spend a whopping
14 hours in class a week.
Pen (33:25):
Yeah. High school students do not get free time. They don't
get, like, space to do things.
Like, maybe they're doingcollege coursework over two
semesters instead of one. Theyare in school for approximately
eight hours a day.
Harvey (33:40):
It's--they're doing school as a full time job. And
then, a lot of the time, they'realso being expected to find a
part time job...
Pen (33:46):
Yep.
Harvey (33:46):
...and get extremely good grades.
Pen (33:49):
And participate in extracurricular activities,
because if you don't, even ifyou have very good grades,
you're told that colleges willnot seriously consider you, or
at least that you won't getinto, like, the good stuff.
Harvey (34:00):
And look, here's--here's the secret that I'm going to
tell you about college, if youare, like, a current high school
student (34:05):
no one cares where you went to college.
Pen (34:09):
Where you went to college or high school? Did you mean
college?
Harvey (34:12):
College. I did mean college.
Pen (34:13):
Okay.
Harvey (34:13):
It really does not matter which one you--like, for
a career.
Pen (34:15):
Oh, you mean, like, yeah, for status things. Depend--there
are some situations in which itmatters more, usually because of
elitism.
Harvey (34:21):
Yeah, but...
Pen (34:22):
Like, specifically that, and, like, if you have--sort
of--if you're a legacy kid,
Harvey (34:27):
Yeah. But I am gonna say, 7 to 8 times out of 10, it
doesn't really matter.
Pen (34:31):
No, it's not--there is--I want to say something that's
very important to me that I holdclose. I did not originally want
to go to community college, andthat is a very complicated thing
that I'm not going to get into.
It had nothing to do with thequality of the community
college. I wanted to just, like,be in a different location,
basically.
Harvey (34:49):
Yeah.
Pen (34:50):
Community Colleges tend to get a bad rap as being, like,
not as good. I hate that somuch.
Harvey (34:59):
Yeah.
Pen (34:59):
My community college was great. I had some really, really
excellent teachers there. Like,they were awesome. Maybe not all
community colleges have greatteachers. Not all universities
have great teachers. Can tellyou that 100% for sure.
Harvey (35:12):
I've had plenty of terrible professors at my four
year university, like...
Pen (35:16):
Community colleges are great. They're cheaper.
Harvey (35:19):
Yes.
Pen (35:20):
And it's easier to take, like, summer classes and stuff,
because it's cheaper, and youdon't have to pay, like, the
ridiculous costs of--I've takensummer classes at the university
I graduated from--it was so muchmore expensive. Community
college is more accessible.
You're not required to live oncampus for any portion of it,
and that has, like, mixed--like,some people need to live on a
campus, so it's not there. It'salso more open to non
(35:43):
traditional students, if you'reolder and things. Community
colleges rule...
Harvey (35:48):
Yeah.
Pen (35:49):
...and if you are in a good position, like the one I went to
had deals with every school inthe state that they had to take
their transfer credits. So, Ientered as, functionally, like,
a junior, and it was great. Itwas way cheaper. And I got just
as much good information as Iwould have otherwise.
Harvey (36:07):
Yeah, but you know...
Pen (36:09):
It's shameful.
Harvey (36:10):
Kind of just to wrap up my thoughts, so I can give
you...
Pen (36:12):
Oh, sorry, sorry.
Harvey (36:13):
No, it's okay to--so I can also give you space to talk
about some of your experienceswith gifted kid syndrome.
Every--the overwhelming feelingof every class I was in was that
I was not good enough, was thatI was not smart enough, was that
I was a mediocre performer, andthat I wouldn't be as successful
(36:34):
as my peers. And I still putthat tremendous amount of
pressure on myself to perform,and essentially to be perfect.
And this is going to be theembarrassing thing. I'm actually
really not satisfied with myGPA. I want it to be higher.
Pen (36:51):
Oh, buddy.
Harvey (36:52):
I know. And I know how ridiculous that is and sounds.
But it's--the reason why I bringthat up is because I really want
folks to know how long-lastingthe impacts of putting that kind
of pressure on your childrencauses. I am nearly 21 gosh darn
years old. [Chuckling] I know. Iam nearly 21 years old, and I
(37:17):
still stress about myridiculously good grades. That
is the situation that I'm inbecause my parents and my school
put too much pressure on me.
Pen (37:28):
Yep.
Harvey (37:30):
So, anyway.
Pen (37:31):
So here's the thing, speaking as someone who did not
have a gifted program, or anhonors track, and I'm deeply
grateful for that, from theoutside in--here's a fun fact
about pretty much every, Ifeel--I don't want to make,
like, broad sweeping statements,but I think, like, the majority
of kids who are in advancedprograms, from my understanding,
(37:52):
they're miserable. They getanxiety and depression and are
deeply unhappy, and are under anincredible amount of pressure.
Like, high school students, ingeneral, have way too much
pressure put on them. We'rehurting our kids. We are. We are
harming our children by the waythat we treat them and the way
(38:13):
the system is broken.
Harvey (38:14):
It's like, look, either we need to make the school day
shorter, or we lighten theirworkload, [both] or both.
Pen (38:21):
Go for it. And, you know, reorganizing the system so it's
not [unintelligible] one kind ofintelligence, and also actually
is more functional for learning,because memorization is not a
good form of learning if youreally want to know the things.
From the outside, honors kidsget messed up by the system.
Like, they are miserable. Maybethere are some who are not. I
(38:43):
was not an honors kid, so thisis just from the outside. I was
not an honors kid, I was stillmiserable, because of the
pressures and expectations puton me. I burned out hardcore. I
got wicked depressed in highschool, and always had anxiety
from a much younger age, but thegeneralized anxiety was still
(39:03):
just, like, really high. Andthat was for many reasons that
didn't all have to do with mygrades, but grades were a major
source of stress for me.
I failed a class in college, andhonestly, it was a good thing,
because I got this kind of resetfor myself. Because for the
first time, I was the only onewho got to know my grades. Like,
(39:26):
my parents didn't hold anythingover me because they could just
not know, and thank God forthat. It's FERPA, I think, is
what protects that? And it'sgreat. And then I did, like,
kind of middling, and then Itransferred to university, and
my first semester, at least, waspretty middling, and,
eventually, I did get themotivation to actually really
(39:49):
care about my grades again. AndI'm glad that I did. Like, I
graduated with a pretty goodGPA. I qualified for the honors
thing--like, not fraternity,exactly, but you know, the cool
thing in my major, and I went tolike a couple of meetings then
was like, actually, I want myMonday evenings.
(40:12):
But--and you know, I'm very gladthat I eventually did care more
about my grades. I needed thatperiod of just not caring. Of
just like, it's fine. If youfail, like, well, that's kind of
inconvenient, because then youhave to figure out a different
class to take. But if you get aC, it doesn't matter.
Harvey (40:27):
You passed.
Pen (40:28):
Like, genuinely, it didn't--it was fine, I got Cs,
and--the reason that I did wasbecause I was not doing well. I
was super, super depressed, andthat's not great. But I--that
pressure just lowered sointensely for me, and it was,
one of the better things thathappened to me in college, was
(40:49):
learning how to just let go ofthat overwhelming pressure. And
there's still trauma there.
Like, I think about the gradesthat I got in high school, and
there's just this incredibletension there. But as soon as it
was just my problem, and I gotto decide things about that, and
who to share it with, and who tonot share it with, it helped so
much. The pressure andexpectation to do well never did
(41:14):
me any favors. It messed me upfrom day one.
Don't expect your kids to besmart. Let them just be kids,
please. If they do well, that'sgreat. Support them. Tell them
you are proud of them. And also,if they're not doing well, don't
(41:37):
punish them for that. Try andfigure out what's going on. If
they have a sudden, like, theirgrades start tanking out of
nowhere, care about them. Askthem, like--if you ask them
what's wrong, don't do it like,"What's wrong with you? What's
going on?" say, "Hey, iseverything, like, going okay,
kiddo? Like, are you stressedout? Like, what can I do to help
you with this?"
Harvey (41:58):
And, you know, that's obviously not saying, like,
don't set expectations for yourchild. It's healthy and good for
children to have expectations.
And honestly, it's okay if thoseexpectations are, you know,
like--like, if they are, like,something that would take effort
to achieve.
Pen (42:14):
Absolutely.
Harvey (42:15):
But you can only take that so far. You can't set those
expectations so high thatthey're either inattainable, or
they're going to take atremendous amount of effort to
achieve.
Pen (42:27):
There's nothing wrong with expecting your children to put
an effort to things. Like,that's--that's a good thing. You
know, teach your kids to be ableto do stuff, and teach your kids
to be able to overcomeadversity. Help them to do that.
Teach them to do that, and havethose expectations on them, and
then show them how to. Love yourchildren. Tell them, "Hey, I w
(42:48):
nt you to be able to do thisI will help you to do this. If
ou don't do this, my love willot be taken away from you." Bec
use that's what it gets translted to, especially if you are q
ite gifted, quite young.
our parents love? It is so easyfor that to get linked to these
igh expectations that they hold,and you are scared that, if you
(43:08):
ail, no one will love
Harvey (43:13):
Yep. For me, it was not necessarily that I--I don't know
if I ever consciously had thethought of, like, "Oh, my
parents don't love me if I don'tdo well."
Pen (43:22):
I don't think it's much of a conscious thought.
Harvey (43:24):
They only ever told me--I--not so much my dad.
But--no, my dad was generallybetter about this. But I usually
only got told, and I stillreally only get told that
I--that they're proud of me whenI do well in school. And it's
hard to not conflate that withlove.
Pen (43:44):
Yeah.
Harvey (43:45):
So...
Pen (43:45):
or, at least, like--that was something--here is the thing
for me is I did well in school,and still was never told that
anyone was proud of me. So I gotpunished if I didn't do well.
And if I did well, there was nobenefit. So it was only, like--I
(44:09):
was still kind of searching foraffirmation, and if I messed up
even once than I was going toget the negative. There was not
just a positive reinforcementthat existed. And that's--that's
not unique to me.
Harvey (44:20):
And psychologically speaking, genuinely, punishing
your kids is much less likely toget them to do what you want
them to do than rewarding them.
Pen (44:29):
Like, it's ineffective. It also leads to scared kids. Like,
there's a reason that gifted kidsyndrome is something we talked
about, and gifted kid burnout.
We're broken. It breaks ourbrains. This is not healthy.
It's actively unhealthy, and ithurts us incredibly, and can
continue to do so far too easilyfor the rest of our lives.
Harvey (44:51):
Now, of course, it's--I mean, I think it's at least
partially on me to try and workon...
Pen (44:55):
Oh, totally.
Harvey (44:56):
...to try and work on the feelings that I have.
But--but the--the thing is,like--the thing that caused me
to have such low self-esteem wasnowhere near my fault.
Pen (45:04):
No.
Harvey (45:04):
But I'm the one who has to pick up the pieces.
Pen (45:07):
And, like, the thing about the low self-esteem, and, like,
constant imposter syndrome, and,like, the depression and anxiety
that results from theseexpectations is that not only
are these expectations set andwe are harmed, we are given zero
coping skills to deal with anyof it. Like, if you say, hey,
I'm feeling really overwhelmed,the best you might get is, "Oh,
(45:30):
everyone feels like that."
Harvey (45:31):
Or "You're too young to feel that way."
Pen (45:33):
And it's like, oh, cool. So a total dismissal of my
emotions? So I learned tointernalize them, and suppress
them, and never actually expressany of it, because I know I'm
going to be punished for doingso or at least dismissed? And
that harms me as well, so itjust keeps growing ,and growing,
and bottling up, and eventuallyI crack under the pressure. And
(45:54):
I was lucky that the breakingunder the pressure led to a
depression that did not kill me.
And I'm gonna be real, folks: luck was definitely a factor in (45:57):
undefined
it. Just sheer luck. And hardwork that I did, but we need to
stop doing this to our kids.
Harvey (46:20):
So, we should wrap up?
Do you have any more closingthoughts?
Pen (46:28):
I know I got pretty intense, especially in the
latter half of the episode. Ifyou expect your child to be
smart, or to value themselveswith intelligence, you're not
doing them any favors. Let kidsbe kids. And help your kids. Pay
(46:53):
attention to them. If they'restruggling, it could be for a
number of reasons. And also,hey, let's not--let's--let's
work on the stereotypes thatwe've got, okay? For a lot of
things, including like, youknow, I didn't get into this at
all, but having ADHD is seen assomething that's--you're
(47:14):
probably struggling in schooland that stuff.
Harvey (47:16):
And now the issue with the push toward "differently
abled" rather than disabledmeans that pretty much all
autistic kids are thought of assavants until they act up, and
then, you know, we get calledretards or whatever. So, hmm,
this intersects with disability.
Pen (47:34):
Yeah, it's--it's busted.
Like, one, ADHD kids are notalways going to be struggling in
school. Hi, I just spent 45minutes talking about gifted kid
burnout. But also, you're makingneurodivergent and mentally ill
kids with this. Some of us, likeautistic and ADHD folks, were
born this way. Thanks, LadyGaga. Thank you. And everybody
(47:54):
else, probably gonna haveanxiety and depression. You're
making mentally ill children.
That's not a great system.
Harvey (48:05):
No.
Pen (48:06):
What about you, Harvey? You got any closing thoughts?
Harvey (48:10):
No, I think that pretty much sums up what I would say.
Pen (48:12):
Oh, there's one other thing I wanted to say. If you're in
high school, and if--and/or, ifyou are feeling this, like,
gifted kid syndrome stuff, ifthat's resonating with you,
you're doing good, howeveryou're doing right now, and I am
proud of you. You are--you areputting in so much work, or you
(48:37):
did, and it's okay to loveyourself, and to be proud of
yourself for that, or to justnot want to do it anymore. Like,
you're enough just as you are.
Harvey (48:53):
There's no threshold that decides at what point you
are worthy of love.
Pen (48:56):
No. You are worthy of love right now. You're enough, kid.
Harvey (49:02):
All right. Well. Let's stick around, just a few more
moments, we'll tell you a littlebit more about how this podcast
is run and our Patreon.
Beyond Introspection is anindependently-run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atByndPodcast or you can email us
(49:25):
at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com.
That's beyond d-o-t podcast, nospaces. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description.
Pen (49:41):
We also have a Patreon. You can find us at
patreon.com/beyondintrospection.
That's all one word. We alsohave links to it on our site and
on our social media. Our podcastis entirely independent, so we
pay for hosting fees andtranscript service subscriptions
out of pocket. This is a passionproject that we're really happy
to do, and any support you'reable to give us would really
make a difference.
On our Patreon, there are fourtiers: $2, which gives you
(50:03):
access to test audio and otherbloopers; $5 which will give you
access to bonus episodes thatwill make in the future, on
topics like how angry we are atFreud, our frustrations with our
respective fields of studies andeven guest episodes; $10 will
get you a direct line andpriority access to request
episode topics and new bonuscontent; and $15, which will
(50:24):
give you access to monthlyAMAs--that's ask me anything for
those who don't know--where wecan answer questions ranging
from the podcast process and wefigure out what to record, more
in depth questions about ourneurodivergences, and more. All
of those tiers will includebenefits from lower tiers of
course.
And also, just to note, unlikeour regular episodes, Patreon
bonus content is likely toinclude swearing, so if that's
(50:46):
not your vibe, please know thatahead of time. We'd also love it
if you're able to share thispodcast with people you know.
Our only advertising is word ofmouth and we want to reach as
many people as possible.
Harvey (50:57):
Got feedback for us?
Want to request an episodetopic? Just feel like saying
hello? Feel free to reach out onsocial media, or via email. We'd
love to hear from everyone. Takecare of yourselves.
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