June 20, 2022 • 58 mins
Harvey, Pen, and a guest discuss the good, the bad, and the complicated when it comes to dating other neurodivergent people.
Featuring: Special Musical Guest Cher; We're very sorry for using slang; Harvey has two hands and a polycule full of autism; Balancing love languages (aka what happens when you can't fix everything); "I just kind of assume that all of my loved ones have depression."; Implicit understanding is such a beautiful thing; Emotional labor and basic intimacy; Shoutout to our friend Dallas; In the end, we really do love what we have.
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pen (00:11):
Hello everybody, and welcome to Beyond Introspection,
a podcast about mental health,neurodivergence, and how it
impacts literally every aspectof our lives.
Harvey (00:19):
All of them.
Pen (00:21):
Thank you, Harvey. I liked that one. I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:23):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:24):
And we have a guest - special guest this episode...
Harvey (00:28):
Special musical guest star Cher. Just kidding. My
boyfriend, Atlas.
Pen (00:30):
Yes.
Atlas (00:31):
Hello, I'm here.
Pen (00:32):
Yes.
Harvey (00:33):
That's Atlas.
Atlas (00:33):
It's me.
Pen (00:34):
Atlas, do you want to, uh - when we've had guests before,
we've had them say, like, maybea couple of things about
themselves, pronouns, whateveryou want to do.
Harvey (00:43):
It's your choice.
Atlas (00:43):
Oh, vibes. Okay. Um, I use they/he pronouns, and I'm an
art history major, which iscool.
Pen (00:49):
That is cool.
Harvey (00:50):
That is.
Pen (00:51):
I like that.
Harvey (00:51):
I have a type. For reference, I don't think I've
ever talked about this on thepodcast, all of my partners are
art students, or aspiring artstudents.
Pen (01:00):
It's... it's fun. It's a very... Harvey... art. I don't
have a good joke.
Harvey (01:06):
That's okay.
Atlas (01:07):
Yeah.
Pen (01:07):
All right.
Harvey (01:09):
I don't know if you had more to say.
Atlas (01:10):
Nope. That's it. That's all. That's me. [Crosstalk]
Pen (01:15):
Yeah. So with - with our previous guest episodes, we've
done things like talking aboutbeing Black with mental health.
Harvey (01:22):
Which, hey, we needed guests for that one, because we
are white.
Pen (01:25):
Yeah, no, that would - that would have [inaudible]
Harvey (01:27):
God.
Pen (01:27):
That would have been such a bad idea. But instead, we, uh -
we know, some really incrediblefolks who... who talked with us
on that, or with Demetrea andthe DSM, which was so fun.
Harvey (01:38):
What a good episode. And then your dad.
Pen (01:40):
My dad and genetics, so this might seem less obvious,
because Atlas does not havenecessarily bona fides for being
Harvey's partner, other thanjust being, you know, cool.
Atlas (01:52):
Thanks.
Pen (01:52):
We like Atlas here.
Harvey (01:53):
We do.
Atlas (01:54):
Thank you.
Pen (01:55):
But what we're going to talk about today is being in a
relationship when both of you -or all of you, as the case may
be, are neurodivergent.
Specifically, how it interactswith, like, burnout in
relationships, and, like, givinga lot of yourself, which is a
problem that all three of ushave.
Atlas (02:17):
Yep.
Harvey (02:18):
You know, but also the ways in which it is good and
nice.
Pen (02:20):
Yes, yeah. The... the, like, pros and cons, and - and
things that help to be consciousof, which is something that, uh,
wanted to pull Atlas in for,because Atlas has been really,
really good for Harvey in thatrespect.
Harvey (02:31):
This is also a very last minute episode, we decided -
well, not - topic. Last minutetopic. We decided on it an hour
ago.
Pen (02:38):
Yep. It was a good idea.
Atlas (02:41):
And I was like, Hey, can I be in the room? And then Pen
was like...
Harvey (02:43):
"Do want to be on the episode?"
Atlas (02:44):
And I was like, yes.
Pen (02:47):
And I'm right about everything, as we just
discussed.
Yeah, we were talking about howyou are the law.
I am the law. Atlas calledHarvey adorable, and Harvey was
like, "Mmm... no."
Harvey (02:56):
I maintain that you haven't proven anything.
Pen (02:58):
I maintain that you didn't have a good argument besides,
"No."
Atlas (03:03):
Yep.
Pen (03:03):
Which I can say, as a communication studies major, is
not what an argument is.
Atlas (03:10):
And my argument was Pen is the law, and Pen agrees with
me. And we are two individuals.
Which also is not a goodargument, but is better than,
"No."
Harvey (03:19):
Whatever.
Atlas (03:19):
Hee hee.
Harvey (03:21):
But, before we get too, ahead of ourselves, Pen.
Pen (03:24):
Harvey.
Harvey (03:25):
Tell me about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen (03:29):
Wahoo!
Harvey (03:29):
Yeah, there you go.
Pen (03:30):
Yeah, I actually thought about this earlier, believe it
or not.
Harvey (03:34):
Yay!
Pen (03:35):
I can't believe it. Yeah, so - well, I mean, we say of the
week. How about the month.
Harvey (03:40):
Oh, true. you're so right.
Pen (03:43):
Thank you. I know! Harvey's flipping me off. Yeah, my Wahoo!
Moment is actually yesterday. Iwent with Harvey, and Atlas, and
a mutual friend of ours, Dallas,to... there was a cool - it's
called the Back Alley Market.
Which, by the way, Atlas, whenyou were like, "Hey, Pen, do you
(04:03):
want to come to the Back AlleyMarket?" I had no fu- I had no
idea what you were talkingabout.
Atlas (04:09):
It sounds so shady, but it literally was in the middle
of streets.
Pen (04:14):
Yeah, it was - it was just like a cool, like...
Atlas (04:16):
During the day.
Harvey (04:17):
[crosstalk] ... downtown area of our town.
Atlas (04:19):
A bunch of crafts and fun things.
Harvey (04:21):
Like thrift things.
Pen (04:22):
There was some goat's milk soap, you know, the kind of
place where you have goat's milksoap.
Harvey (04:26):
I bought fancy olive oil.
Pen (04:28):
I also got some of the fancy olive oil because its
dope.
Atlas (04:31):
Oh, yeah. I got a little garlic grinder thingy, and sexy
lady candle.
Pen (04:37):
I didn't know that you got that! That's fun! But it was -
it was really, really nice. It'sthe kind of thing that I liked
going to, it was actually goodweather for once in our
Midwestern lives. But, yeah,it's, uh... it was a really,
really nice day, even though Ihad to be a functional person
before 9am for it.
Atlas (04:57):
Sorry about that, homie.
Pen (04:58):
No, no, it was fine. It was good for me in the end. But
yeah, no, it was great. I'vedone social things lately, which
is good for my brain.
Atlas (05:04):
Social things are important.
Pen (05:06):
Yeah, they're also incredibly difficult. Anyway,
Harvey?
Harvey (05:12):
Yes?
Pen (05:13):
What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Month?
Harvey (05:17):
You say it in the exact same way every time and I am so
tickled by it.
Atlas (05:21):
It's very adorable.
Pen (05:21):
Thank you. I'm neurodivergent.
Harvey (05:22):
You are. I'm so - God, you're so sexy for it.
Pen (05:28):
We were just talking yesterday about how Harvey and I
fake flirt all the time, andthen say constantly that we're
not a couple in a way thatsounds so much like just the
over denial.
Atlas (05:39):
You're both gonna fake kiss and then commit to it at
the same time, and then it'sjust gonna happen sometime.
Pen (05:44):
And now three people have talked about that on the
podcast.
Harvey (05:47):
Anyway! So, gosh, I have a couple things I could draw on.
I'm gonna steer away from-
Pen (05:54):
You're gonna draw? But it's an audio medium!
Harvey (05:56):
[Sarcastically] Haha.
Funny.
Pen (05:58):
It was funny, thanks.
Harvey (06:02):
Derogatory. Funny, derogatory. No, um, anytime I
draw on my partner's, Penbullies me, which is fair.
Pen (06:12):
I don't bully you. I just point it out, usually because
you point it out.
Harvey (06:17):
Anyway. I am about to graduate college in a week.
Pen (06:22):
Oh, my God, it's in a week?!
Harvey (06:24):
Yeah, I'm not going to my commencement, but I'm
graduating, and I get my sillylittle diploma. My silly little
piece of paper that certifiesthat I took 120 credit hours,
and...
Atlas (06:35):
That's so many.
Harvey (06:36):
And unrelated to that, well, semi-related. I'm supposed
to hear back about a job onMonday or maybe Tuesday, so I'll
know whether or not I havemoney. And if I don't, well,
we'll figure it out.
Pen (06:49):
Yeah, that's - that's a fair - that's a - that's a
Wahoo?
Harvey (06:54):
Kinda. I'm excited to graduate college.
Pen (06:57):
Yeah, I'm excited for you.
It's also weird and you need tostop aging.
Harvey (07:01):
It's, uh... it's - it's been a long road, and I'm -
you've watched me the wholetime.
Pen (07:05):
I have. I was just talking about that, actually, with, uh,
with Dallas when we hung out onFriday.
Harvey (07:11):
Oh?
Pen (07:12):
How absolutely wild it was when I met you and Em, and you
were freshmen, and I got towatch you and, like, your first
semester of college and be like,oh... aw, guys, no, it's gonna
be okay. No, that's gonna belike... aw, baby's first
breakdowns during, like,midterms and finals. And it's
like, oh, no, it's okay. You getused to it.
Harvey (07:32):
And I did!
Atlas (07:33):
The worst part of college and getting used to breakdowns.
Harvey (07:35):
And now I just cry a little bit. Atlas, do you have a
Wahoo? We don't usually ask ourguests, but I feel like we
should. Do you have a Wahoo!Moment of the Month to share?
Atlas (07:45):
Well, yes, I do. Pen took mine, technically, but...
Pen (07:49):
You can say the same one.
Atlas (07:50):
I'm gonna make a new one up because there is multiple
things. I was nominated andgifted a Art History award...
Pen (08:01):
Whoa!
Atlas (08:02):
...through my college. I was nominated by one of my
professors, which means I got$500.
Pen (08:07):
Yo, dope!
Atlas (08:08):
It's great.
Harvey & Pen (08:08):
Yeah.
Atlas (08:09):
I will take free money.
Pen (08:11):
That's - that's rad! Congratulations!
Harvey (08:13):
And it's because you're very intelligent and very good
at what you do.
Atlas (08:15):
Thank you.
Pen (08:16):
That is so swag. And Epic.
Atlas (08:19):
Yeah.
Pen (08:19):
It's swagepic.
Atlas (08:20):
I got the email, and I was like, "Oh!" That's the exact
noise I made.
Pen (08:24):
I love that. I love that a lot.
Harvey (08:27):
I wasn't in the room, so I wouldn't know.
Atlas (08:28):
Yeah. I at least made it in my mind. I think it was
probably in my dorm, and if Ihad done that out loud, Shelby,
my roommate would have beenlike, "What - What are you
doing?"
Harvey (08:37):
Why?
Atlas (08:37):
Why?
Harvey (08:38):
Why?
Pen (08:38):
Why have you done this? I did not ask for it.
Harvey (08:42):
Okay, you can tell that we're all neurodivergent,
because we are trying so hard tostay on task.
Pen (08:48):
We're doing our best, and it's gonna be fun. This is a
podcast by neurodivergentpeople.
Harvey (08:53):
It's our podcast, and we can do what we want!
Pen (08:55):
Folks who don't want to listen to neurodivergent people
being neurodivergent, I don't...
think this podcast is gonna workwell for you. And I'm confused
as to why - why you're listeningto it, but you know what? Have
fun, I guess.
Atlas (09:10):
Go off.
Pen (09:12):
Go... go get it, I guess.
Harvey (09:14):
Ooh, yeah, get it, I guess.
Pen (09:15):
Thank you, thank you. I forgot how it went, and I was
going to do a cuss, but Ididn't. Are you proud of me,
Harvey ,for not cussing?
Harvey (09:23):
Yes.
Pen (09:23):
Thank you.
Atlas (09:23):
I've been concentrating so hard not to cuss.
Pen (09:28):
This is a family friendly show where we talk about making
out with each other.
Harvey (09:34):
It's entirely so we don't get flagged as explicit.
Atlas (09:37):
That's dumb and homophobic.
Pen (09:40):
Things are... yeah. So, we are all in relationships. That
sounds a little silly, giventhat I've - that we've
introduced Atlas Harvey'spartner. I am also in a
relationship, is a more accurateand sensible way to put it.
Harvey (09:55):
But not with me or Atlas.
Pen (09:56):
No.
No, no, my - but mygirlfriend also has ADHD. Which,
Atlas (09:57):
With netiher of us.
can I just say, called it!
Harvey (10:03):
And also composed the music. Composed and performed
the music for this podcast.
Pen (10:08):
Which is so... ah, every time I listen to it while I'm
doing the editing, I'm alwayslike, "Dang, I wish I could
listen to an album of this."
Atlas (10:15):
It's very good. I like it. I didn't know that - that
she had done that, and Harveytold me that was her, and I was
like, [gasping]
Pen (10:21):
Yes, it's - it's very good.
She's very, very talented, veryskilled.
Atlas (10:25):
Love her.
Pen (10:26):
So she has ADHD, and anxiety, and depression.
Which...
Harvey (10:31):
Heyyy.
Pen (10:31):
Hi, I'm Pen, and I have ADHD.
Harvey (10:35):
And depression.
Pen (10:36):
And depressive things because of the ADHD. And - and,
uh, intense social anxietythat's been debilitating for my
entire life, but that's gettingbetter. And Harvey, all of - all
of your partners are alsoneurodivergent, yes?
Harvey (10:53):
Yeah, so that one's funny. I have five partners,
because there's something wrongwith me.
Atlas (10:56):
You're stopping. I'm cutting you off.
Pen (10:57):
Because you have five fingers on each hand?
Harvey (10:59):
I promise - yes, because I have five fingers on each
hand.
Pen (11:02):
Harvey has two hands and five fingers.
Harvey (11:04):
Two fingers for each boyfriend.
Pen (11:06):
Dope!
Harvey (11:07):
So...
Pen (11:08):
It's math, so it makes sense and works out.
Harvey (11:11):
So, in any case, yeah.
So... and yes, I am done. Ipromise. I'm done.
Atlas (11:17):
You're done. I'm cutting you off.
Harvey (11:19):
You're done.
Pen (11:19):
I am also cutting you off.
Atlas (11:22):
The only reason I'm okay is because it's me.
Harvey (11:26):
I mean, genuinely...
Pen (11:26):
I mean, low-key not a joke, though.
Atlas (11:29):
I am the newest addition.
Harvey (11:31):
It worked out. Yeah, we've been dating for just about
a month. It worked out and we'llget into why in a bit. But yes,
all of my partners, includingme, are neurodivergent. I am the
only one with ADHD, and mypartner Maddox is the-
Pen (11:42):
No, autism!
Atlas (11:43):
You're the only one with autism.
Harvey (11:45):
I said I'm the only one without ADHD.
Pen (11:47):
You said with.
Harvey (11:47):
Oh, my bad. I'm the only one without ADHD. And my
partner, Maddox, is the only onewithout autism. So...
Pen (11:56):
You, me, autism.
Harvey (11:58):
Autism. So, yeah, it - the whole polycule is, uh,
neurodivergent. Soneurodivergent.
Pen (12:08):
With a lot of overlap!
Atlas (12:09):
Every time you say neurodivergent, I always want to
add, "And a minor," but no oneis a minor.
Harvey (12:14):
No.
Pen (12:14):
No one. There are - no, there are no...
Atlas (12:17):
There are no minors.
Pen (12:18):
That would be...
Atlas (12:18):
It's just a funny joke.
Harvey (12:19):
Umm, I'm literally neurodivergent and an adult.
Pen (12:24):
If you're not chronically online, that's not gonna make
any sense.
Atlas (12:27):
Nope.
Harvey (12:28):
But it's okay.
Pen (12:29):
We tell jokes sometimes.
Sometimes we're in our 20s andI'm really sorry about that for
all of our listeners.
Atlas (12:34):
Yeah.
Harvey (12:34):
Especially the ones that are over 35.
Atlas (12:36):
Sorry we're in our 20s.
Pen (12:38):
I'm sorry, mom.
Harvey (12:40):
So, yeah, and I've been dating neurodivergent people the
entire time. I don't know...
Pen (12:48):
The whole time?
Harvey (12:48):
Huh?
Pen (12:49):
The whole time!
Harvey & Atlas (12:50):
The whole time!
Harvey (12:51):
The whole time. Because one of my exes Skylar, I don't
know if he had ADHD or autism,but he did have, like, mental
illness, so not fullyneurotypical. And my - my most
recent ex, Louis, had autism. SoI just - I date neurodivergent
(13:11):
people, almost exclusively.
Atlas (13:13):
Yeah.
Pen (13:13):
ND4ND.
Harvey (13:15):
Yeah, lowkey.
Pen (13:18):
Which is... I mean, I get it. I have also... have all
my...? I suppose I don't knowabout him. I - because I have
had the one boyfriend...
Harvey (13:27):
Oh, God, right.
Pen (13:27):
...but I was 14. Yeah.
Harvey (13:29):
I mean, that barely counts.
Pen (13:31):
It was a thing. It was not good. But anyway, since then...
she has autism. She... well, Idon't actually know what she
had, but like, if she didn't,then that would be wild. She
almost certainly did. Anddoes... yeah, I think I've - I
have also exclusively hadneurodivergent partners except I
(13:54):
don't know about... I shouldn'tname drop him. That'd be weird.
Harvey (13:57):
Your ex-boyfriend?
Pen (13:58):
Yeah, my singular boyfriend.
Atlas (14:00):
Just the one.
Pen (14:01):
Yeah, just the single - just a single one. I mean, I
thought I was a girl at thetime. That was fun. I was in a
heterosexual relationship.
Harvey (14:08):
No.
Atlas (14:09):
Bad.
Harvey (14:09):
No, heart.
Atlas (14:11):
Thumbs down.
Pen (14:12):
Don't worry. I got well soon.
Atlas (14:14):
Congratulations.
Harvey (14:15):
Congrats.
Pen (14:15):
Thank you. So yes, we've had - we've had neurodivergent
partners. Atlas, you don't haveto expose your dating history if
you don't want to.
Atlas (14:25):
I'd rather not.
Pen (14:25):
Yeah, that's - and there we go. Harvey and I are the only
ones obligated to stripourselves bear on the podcast.
Harvey (14:34):
No, it's okay. We do it for fun.
Pen (14:36):
Yeah, no, that's the - that's... we're quirky.
Harvey (14:41):
Never call me quirky again. [Laughter]
Pen (14:42):
Um, but, yes. So let's talk about that. Huh? Neurodivergent
partners?
Atlas (14:53):
Yeah.
Harvey (14:53):
Yeah, okay.
Pen (14:55):
Um, do we want to do the creative writing thing of
talking about the good partsfirst, or do we want to do the
thing where we talk about the -the troubling things first, and
then end on a positive note?
Harvey (15:07):
I hate making decisions.
Hang on.
Atlas (15:09):
Harvey making a decision in their life?
Pen (15:09):
Yep. [coin rattling] Oh, that's good audio.
Harvey (15:12):
I have an idea. I'm gonna flip a coin.
Tails.
Pen (15:30):
That was the bad, right?
Harvey (15:31):
Yeah, we start with the bad.
Pen (15:32):
Okay, cool, I also instantly forgot.
Atlas (15:34):
ADHD!
Pen (15:35):
Yeah!
Harvey (15:36):
Yeah, we start with the bad.
Pen (15:37):
Okay. Yeah, it's a good thing Harvey and I don't both
have ADHD. It would be so...
Atlas (15:41):
Oh, no.
Pen (15:42):
The podcast would just be like, so y'all just talked, huh?
No topic or anything?
Atlas (15:47):
No, no, just conversations.
Pen (15:48):
Which we get dangerously close to anyway, but... So the
troubling things. Well, you knowhow with depression, you don't
have motivation to do anything?
Atlas (16:03):
Yes.
Pen (16:04):
And you can't really pull yourself out of it very well.
And it's like, completelydebilitating and totally messes
you up. And it can, like, reallyput a lot of strain on a
relationship, nd often you needhelp from other people.
Atlas (16:18):
Yeah.
Harvey (16:19):
Oh, yeah.
Atlas (16:19):
What if both?
I know it's - it sucks.
Pen (16:22):
It's miserable.
Atlas (16:24):
When you're both absolutely going through it, and
it's like, you don't know whatto do with your hands. Like, who
holds who?
Harvey (16:31):
Which is kind of the spot we've been in for the
past...
Atlas (16:34):
Yep.
Harvey (16:35):
...couple weeks?
Atlas (16:36):
Yep.
Harvey (16:36):
Probably the whole time we've been dating, let's be
real.
Atlas (16:38):
Yep. [laughter]
Pen (16:40):
It is very difficult to you know, you want to support your
partner. You want to be therefor them. And then you can't be
there for yourself.
Atlas (16:50):
Yep.
Pen (16:50):
So how do you... it becomes...
Harvey (16:54):
I need help.
Pen (16:55):
Yes. So that's - that's one. Which is, I know, for - for
Harvey and other depression.
It's just kind of like, well,yeah, that just happens
sometimes, and is kind of analways.
Harvey (17:08):
I'm always at least a little bit depressed. I'm
chronically suicidal, even,which can be really rough on
relationships.
Pen (17:15):
Which is... it's different if you have a partner who is not
Yeah, yeah. It's... andthat - it can sometimes come out
of the blue, and that can really- like, that just fundamentally
neurodivergent, or a partner whojust doesn't experience
causes a strain on arelationship.
Harvey (17:24):
Yeah.
That some people justaren't depressed.
depression. Which like, it'salways weird to remember that
that happens?
Pen (17:38):
I...
Harvey (17:39):
Sounds fake.
Pen (17:40):
I need to meet some people like that. Just see what it's
like to live that because itdoes legit sound fake at this
point.
Harvey (17:46):
It does. You know, and I think, too, my one partner that
doesn't have autism, sometimesthe thing that becomes readily
apparent to me is howfrustrating for other people my
inability to understand things,if it's not explicitly pointed
out to me can be, and thatalways feels really bad because
(18:08):
I- like, to me, I never feellike I'm asking for much when I
just want things explicitlystated. And apparently, for some
people, that is veryfrustrating. And it's like, why?
Pen (18:19):
Yeah.
Atlas (18:20):
I like communication.
Pen (18:21):
Communication.
Communication is excellent. I'mso bias.
Atlas (18:26):
Communication majors be like.
Pen (18:30):
You'd think would you be better at talking, then. Or,
well, talking... less, or moreinterestingly... I'm dunking on
everyone who's ever been in mymajor.
Harvey (18:40):
That's okay. They kind of deserve it.
Pen (18:42):
Oh, yeah, I didn't like most of my classmates. Anyway.
We're not talking about that. Ialready talked about that and
one of us. But it's...
communication can be so - well,we actually just did an episode
on that, Harvey, how...
Harvey (18:58):
Yeah.
Pen (18:59):
...communication can be challenging,
Harvey (19:01):
Especially with the interaction of, like, I do not
read between the lines. Bothing.
I said have - nothing I sayreally has anything behind it
other than what I'm saying, anda lot of people just don't
assume that that's true.
Pen (19:14):
Yeah, it's...
typical thing withcommunication for neurotypical
people, which is, like, kind ofwack.
Harvey (19:28):
Why would you do that?
That sounds so inefficient.
Pen (19:32):
You know, the weird thing about neurotypical people? They
don't think about efficiency intheir own lives very much. Or
like efficiency incommunication. I've always
thought that was weird, and thatthey should just do it, but I
haven't been able to convinceanybody yet. In fact, they
usually get pretty mad at me.
Harvey (19:52):
Pourin' one out for you, homie.
Pen (19:53):
Thanks. Wish they'd be just... better at having brains.
But, well... we can't all becool.
Harvey (20:00):
If you need more time, I'm su Atlas, are there any
immediate negatives that come tomind? We're just kind of going
around the table.
Atlas (20:04):
Hmm...
Pen (20:04):
It's a rectangle table.
Harvey (20:06):
Triangle.
Atlas (20:07):
I was gonna say, it's more of a triangle.
Harvey (20:08):
We're shaped in a triangle.
Atlas (20:10):
Yeah. We're all kind of sitting.
Harvey (20:11):
Angle. Three of them.
I'll stop talking now.
Pen (20:17):
Thank you so much, Harvey.
Atlas (20:20):
I'm trying to think.
Pen (20:22):
Oh, I can always say something.
Atlas (20:24):
You guys say some more things, and let me think in my
brain.
Pen (20:27):
It's - I actually just last night had a thing with
communicating with mygirlfriend, which was like, I
was explaining that somethingthat she had, uh... we were
playing Magic, which, yeah, Iknow.
Harvey (20:41):
Ha, nerd.
Pen (20:42):
Thank you.
Harvey (20:43):
Loser.
Pen (20:44):
Yeah.
Harvey (20:44):
I love you.
Pen (20:45):
You should bully me for being into Magic the Gathering.
Everyone who plays Magic theGathering deserves to be
bullied.
My younger siblings are intoMagic the Gathering.
I'm really sorry, but they'regeeks.
Atlas (20:53):
Yeah, I know.
Pen (20:58):
And, uh, we were talking about one of the cards that she
had in her deck, which is a petcard of mine. And she said that
it was pretty good, which to me,pretty good is, like, below
good, and feels like a - like adisagreement that's just couched
in, like not activelydisagreeing. And so there was a
(21:20):
bit of me that just like, kindof felt rejected from that. Wow,
I wonder what it's like to nothave, like, ADHD and RSD and
things and listen to me saythat, because it must sound
absolutely bonkers; like bananaswild.
Harvey (21:35):
And see, like, removed from the situation, it sounds a
little wild, but also beingsomeone who experiences RSD, I
understand.
Pen (21:42):
And it wasn't an extreme thing, because I'm - I was gonna
say an adult, but adults aren'tactually that good at
communication.
Harvey (21:48):
No, we're terrible at it.
Pen (21:49):
Or emotional regulation.
Atlas (21:50):
No one is good at anything inherently.
Pen (21:53):
And that's very, very true.
Harvey (21:54):
That's some wisdom, dude,
Atlas (21:55):
I-
Pen (21:56):
It is.
Atlas (21:57):
...just said that, not even thinking.
Pen (22:00):
Well, you just have a good brain.
And, you know, because Imake an effort to be good at
Harvey (22:01):
It's because you're smart. You're smart and
handsome.
Atlas (22:04):
Aw, you're so sweet.
understanding my own emotionsand communicating them well, to
all people, but especially thosewho I care about. I talked to
her about it. I was like, hey,so I figured out that that is
what I was feeling, and we had alittle bit of a back and forth
where I realized, like, we werejust hitting a bit of a wall
where what I wanted was to knowif that was what she meant when
(22:25):
she said pretty good, and whatshe was doing was explaining,
like, that she had not intendedto make me feel rejected, which
was just not at all, like... wewere not meeting each other on
that.
Harvey (22:44):
No.
Atlas (22:45):
We were talking about two different things. And that's
something that happens, like,not uncommonly.
Harvey (22:52):
Happens to me with my relationships, too.
Pen (22:55):
The communication, like- it can be so specific, and that can
be... and then when when thingsget frustrating and difficult to
understand, particularly whenyou are neurodivergent as in
autism or ADHD, your brain is onthe one track and getting it off
of that track, oh, it's sodifficult to do.
Atlas (23:16):
Why would your brain think anything else?
Harvey (23:19):
This is what we've always thought this is the
entire time.
Atlas (23:22):
This is how we do things.
Pen (23:23):
This is how we process information. Why would it
change?
Atlas (23:25):
Yeah. Change. Change?
Change.
Pen (23:28):
I'm sorry, change? That's scary and bad. And like hitting
that wall...
Harvey (23:35):
Yeah.
Pen (23:36):
...in any respect can be so challenging to work through. And
the-
Harvey (23:41):
Especially if you start taking it personally.
Pen (23:43):
Yes. And the thing about relationships is you're always
going to hit a wall ofcommunication at one point or
another.
Atlas (23:48):
Especially when you can't communicate.
Pen (23:50):
Yep.
Atlas (23:52):
Yeah, like I've... I get overwhelmed sometimes, like, in
stores and things, like today.
Harvey (24:00):
You did earlier today.
Atlas (24:00):
Yeah.
Pen (24:02):
Stores suck.
Atlas (24:02):
Yeah.
We went to Walmart. Yeah.
Oh, my God, mistake, but Ineeded groceries and things.
Harvey (24:07):
So did I.
Atlas (24:08):
It was a necessary battle. But sometimes talking is
hard. And having a partner- thisis not Harvey. Harvey
understands. Having a partner-
Harvey (24:20):
Because I'm autistic.
Atlas (24:21):
Having a partner who doesn't understand nonverbal is
hard.
Pen (24:27):
Oh, that sounds miserable.
Atlas (24:28):
Yeah. Cuz talk that you're not mad at them.
Pen (24:31):
Ooh...
Harvey (24:32):
Your ex-partner was mentally ill, but didn't have
autism or ADHD.
Atlas (24:38):
Yeah. So there was a lot of disconnect there between,
Pen (24:39):
Yeah.
Atlas (24:41):
Just to talk.
like, how I would behave incertain things, and she would
Which, then, makes it worsebecause you're - you're not only
not get it. Like, yeah. And it'sjust hard because it's like, I'm
not mad at you, and I can'texplain that. I'm not mad at
you, because it's very hard todo things right now.
stressed from the stress, butyou're also stressed because of
(25:12):
communication things, which isvery difficult.
Pen (25:15):
It's a - that is a vicious, vicious circle.
Atlas (25:17):
Yep.
Harvey (25:18):
Which that's one of the nice things about us being
neurodivergent in such a similarway, because I just kind of
implicitly understand goingnonverbal after being in a
store. Hate stores.
Pen (25:28):
Stores are awful.
Atlas (25:29):
Thumbs down on stores, except for Aldi. Aldi gets a
smooch.
Pen (25:33):
Aldi is - Aldi is better.
Atlas (25:35):
Not best, but better.
No store is best.
Pen (25:37):
No store is best.
Harvey (25:37):
Thank God.
Pen (25:37):
Oh, God, I actually just relaxed. My shoulders actually
...if we want to interactwith other people, because we
There is no good store.
Leave me alone! If there - if Ijust untensed a little.
was the only one there and therewere no lights, I would be...
Atlas (25:45):
And just a little bit of music.
(26:05):
have to explain ourselves.
See, so masking episode. Lastone.
Good episode.
Harvey & Pen (26:24):
Thank you!
Pen (26:27):
And that's really, really hard to do. It's something that
also, you know, comes up notjust in interacting with
society, but also interactingwith other people, you know,
that you might be in arelationship with. Having to be
very conscious of, you know, in,like - in the example that I
(26:47):
gave about my girlfriend and Ilast night, if I had not been
aware of, like, why it was thatI was feeling rejected, I can
tell you, before I was good atrecognizing that, it was just
the feeling of rejection, and noreal way of like, communicating
it or anything, Like, I had todo that - that growth and that,
like, introspection.
Harvey (27:08):
LOL.
Atlas (27:09):
Haha. Ha.
Pen (27:09):
Funny to learn that and be able to communicate it, because
otherwise you just hit a wallreally fast. And,
Atlas (27:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (27:17):
It's not good for anybody.
Pen (27:19):
And it can be... things can go kind of bad. Like there's -
it can be difficult to learnthat, I think it's also pretty
necessary, because otherwise,things can devolve, and people
can, intentionally or not, berather selfish with their
emotions, and ask a lot. Andsometimes you're predisposed to
(27:41):
being very giving with things,especially if you are also
neurodivergent. And so youunderstand why someone would be
having a hard time communicatingthese things. And so you think,
Well, I mean, I understand, Iget it, so it's not that big of
a deal, right? Wrong.
Atlas (27:55):
Wrong.
Harvey (27:56):
Wrong, and then you shove it down, and then yeah,
like, I don't... I got into anargument with one of my
partners, not this one.
Atlas (28:05):
Not me.
Harvey (28:05):
Not you... the other night, kind of about that sort
of selfish emotions piece. And Ifound myself having that really
difficult time reconciling like,I understand where you're coming
from, and you do have anunquestionable right to your
feelings. And also, I am soangry that this is the way that
you're feeling about something.
(28:26):
Which has been weird for us tonavigate.
Atlas (28:37):
Yeah, we're literally, like, the spider man emoji or -
emoji. Meme where they're allpointing at each other.
Harvey (28:44):
Thank God.
Atlas (28:46):
It's, like, no, you. I'm take care of you know, you can't
bite me. Nope.
This is a family friendlypodcast, Harvey.
Harvey (28:55):
Not hard. Just a li'l...
just a li'l ni- eat him likecorn on cob. A li'l
Pen (29:02):
Add that to the bits where if you're not neurodivergent
must be like, sorry what did-Biting?
Bite?
Atlas (29:09):
What?
Pen (29:10):
Anyway. I refuse to explain myself.
Atlas (29:14):
And you don't have to.
Harvey (29:14):
Nor should you.
Pen (29:17):
I am an enigma. Though, speaking of explaining yourself
to your partner...
Atlas (29:20):
Oh, God.
Pen (29:23):
It is really important to recognize, I think, like, yes,
you get to just feel things andthat's always true. And yes,
sometimes your feelings areunreasonable. Like sometimes the
way that you feel aboutsomething just isn't gonna be
like, sometimes it is just kindof selfish. And that's - I say
(29:44):
that's okay, and what I mean bythat is like, you can't control
whether or not you feel.
Harvey (29:48):
The thing that I always say is you can't control your
feelings, but you can controlwhat you do with them.
Pen (29:53):
Exactly. I think that the healthiest thing to do is to
accept your feelings for justbeing what they are.
Legitimately, you can't doanything else, because if you
try to do something else, you'llend up guilting yourself and
trying to just suppress theemotions, which, let me tell
you, does not make them go away.
Atlas (30:15):
Something I've learned is you can feel things, and they
don't have to be okay sometimes.
They're allowed to be yours, andyou can feel them.
Pen (30:26):
Yeah.
Harvey (30:27):
And sometimes it is worthwhile to process your
emotions away from the people.
Atlas (30:31):
Mm-hmm.
Pen (30:31):
Yes.
Atlas (30:32):
Yeah. Like, last night, we were talking about the
concert that neither of us canreally go to.
Yeah.
And I was like, damn, I'm sad.
But I'm not sad at Harvey. I'mjust sad that I can't go to the
concert.
Pen (30:47):
It's...
Harvey (30:48):
And we, like, kind of just didn't talk about it,
because there wasn't reallyanything that would come from
talking about it.
Atlas (30:52):
We were just like like, oh, man, that sucks. Shoot.
Pen (30:55):
Mm-hmm.
Harvey (30:55):
Okay, I'm gonna drive home now.
Pen (30:56):
And sometimes, like - sometimes that's it. And
sometimes, like... sometimes youare feeling something, or
someone else might be feelingsomething that's, like, more
challenging or difficult.
Harvey (31:10):
Complicated.
Pen (31:11):
And what it comes down to is, like, maybe, you can inform
Atlas (31:11):
Complications.
your partner that this is howyou're feeling, and not make it
their problem, though.
Yeah.
Pen (31:25):
Sometimes you can feel a thing, and I'm trying not to be
specific here, because I haveexamples in mind, but they
aren't really mine to talkabout.
Atlas (31:32):
You can communicate...
Harvey (31:33):
Do you have an example with us?
Pen (31:36):
Not with you and Atlas.
But...
Harvey (31:39):
I mean you and I.
Pen (31:40):
You and- oh! You and I.
Okay.
Harvey (31:42):
Because we can lay that out.
Pen (31:44):
Oh, God, I don't know.
Harvey (31:46):
That's okay. We don't have to get stuck thinking about
an example.
Pen (31:49):
But yeah, it's - sometimes you feel a thing, and it is
selfish. And...
Harvey (31:56):
And that's okay.
Pen (31:56):
...it can be good to tell your partner like, hey, I am
feeling this thing, especiallyif it's very intense.
Harvey (32:00):
Or even - just, you don't even have to be specific
sometimes. Just like, I am notfeeling well.
Pen (32:05):
But sometimes it is, like, if you're feeling one thing very
intensely, can be good toexplain that to the person who
it's related to, because that'sgoing to potentially impact your
communication with them.
Harvey (32:17):
And that was - that was kind of relevant to the
conversation I had with mypartner last night where I was
like... I am feeling angry, youdidn't make me angry. That is
the way I am responding to thesituation. That's not yours to
manage.
Pen (32:30):
And that can be - that can be very good and healthy to be
like, this is what I'm feeling.
I am going to manage itelsewhere and talk to other
people about it, because this isnot your thing to help me
process.
Atlas (32:43):
It can also be really hard to accept that.
Pen (32:45):
Yes.
Atlas (32:46):
Because it's like, oh, but I want to help. [Crosstalk]
Pen (32:51):
The other side of it is like, what if I fixed everything
in the world? All for you? Whatif I just made everything okay?
Atlas (32:58):
Yeah, I can do that.
Yeah.
Harvey (33:00):
That - that is both reasonable and possible to
achieve.
Atlas (33:04):
Yep.
Pen (33:04):
And it is - it's... being emotionally drained, when all
you want is to give more. And itseems like a good thing that you
should give more, especiallylike, in our society, that kind
of thing is also rewarded, atleast conceptually, is like,
(33:25):
yes, give and be selfless, anddo the work. Help other people!
Just keep helping! Help, help!And don't make it about
yourself. Ever!
Harvey (33:33):
Don't you dare!
Atlas (33:34):
It can't be about you actually.
Harvey (33:35):
Ever.
Atlas (33:35):
Nope.
Harvey (33:36):
You don't get to have feelings.
Pen (33:38):
We all have religious trauma.
Harvey (33:42):
Converted to a whole different Judeo-Christian
religion about it.
Pen (33:46):
That's - it's really funny.
Atlas (33:48):
And I just said no.
Pen (33:51):
And - so it's... all you want to do is give, but the
healthiest possible thing thatyou can do...
Harvey (33:59):
Is to stop giving.
Atlas (34:01):
...is to draw a boundary.
Harvey (34:03):
And boundary setting is so hard when you're
neurodivergent. Because goodGod, number one, you've been
told to shove down everythingyou feel for your entire life.
Number two, the people you careabout legitimately need help
just as much as you do.
Pen (34:17):
Yeah. And so it can feel so selfish and so awful to be like,
this one can't be mine. I can'thelp. Whether that's I can't
help right now, or sometimes. Ijust can't help with this one.
And especially if your partneris not yet at that point...
Atlas (34:37):
Yep.
Harvey (34:38):
Of emotional maturity.
Pen (34:39):
...when you are at different points in the
emotional maturity and thegrowth, that can be so
challenging.
Atlas (34:46):
Because it sounds like you're admitting defeat
Pen (34:49):
It - and it can feel like, uh, they might feel like you're
rejecting them by saying no, I'mnot going to help you with this.
And it's like, "Oh, so you hateme? I'm not enough? You don't
love me?"
Atlas (35:02):
Yep.
Pen (35:02):
And it's like...
Harvey (35:03):
It's like, no, it's because I love you that I am
drawing this boundary, becausetrying to help you with this
will help and neither of us
Pen (35:09):
It will just make things worse.
Atlas (35:10):
Make things worse. Make things bad.
Pen (35:12):
And it's... it can be very, very difficult to... like this
is - like you and Harvey both,I'm talking to Atlas, do that
thing of, like, wanting to helpand always help. It can be very,
very difficult when your partnerdoes not have that instinct.
Atlas (35:30):
Yeah.
Pen (35:30):
And so they don't understand, like, just the
inherent emotional drain thatcomes from having a partner in
the first place, because that'sjust a part of how we all
express our love.
Atlas (35:43):
Yep.
Pen (35:44):
And so trying to say like, I love you, one of the things
that comes with me loving you,is wanting to just give and give
and help. And I need to not dothat all the time for my health,
which then is also about ourrelationship's health.
Atlas (35:58):
Mm-hmm.
Harvey (35:59):
Yep.
Pen (35:59):
And if that is not supported, then... I'm having a
hard time drawing this boundaryin the first place, because
everything in me is screaming tocontinue to be... like, try and
be selfless in this way. And sothen if your partner doesn't
understand it, or like... orresponds by calling you selfish,
or feeling, like, rejected inthat, or...
Atlas (36:21):
Just asking you to do more.
Harvey (36:22):
It is so painful.
Pen (36:23):
It's just like, oh, no. Or even if it's like, they just
don't understand why it would bedraining, or that you're giving
more because it seems...
Atlas (36:33):
Or, like, they get sad.
Pen (36:34):
Or they get sad, or maybe, because, hey, this is part of a
love language thing. It makesall of us feel good to do these
things. And when that goesunrecognized, too not that we do
it for thanks. That's not how alove language works. But when
it's not recognized that like,hey, I'm putting a lot of energy
into this, and effort, and thatmeans that I have put energy and
(36:55):
effort into a thing, and so Ihave less of it.
Atlas (36:58):
Yeah.
Harvey (36:59):
And I need you to recognize that I have less of
it.
Pen (37:01):
I have less of it, because I wanted to do this thing for
you, because I love you, and Ineed you to know what that
means.
Yep.
Harvey (37:07):
And you know, on balance, At, like... I think,
because we both have thetendency to give and give and
give, we tend to balance eachother out pretty well.
Atlas (37:14):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:14):
But I will say, all things considered, it's really
hard for you to get to a placewhere I let you help me.
Atlas (37:21):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:22):
I'm... like, you're a little bit more receptive to me
helping you. I am extremelystubborn.
Atlas (37:27):
Yes, I know. And I love you.
Harvey (37:30):
I love you, too. And you are also... you are - I wouldn't
call you forceful.
Atlas (37:36):
No.
Harvey (37:36):
You are insistent.
Atlas (37:37):
Yes.
Which...
Gently, gently insistent ofbeing like, Hey, let me do this,
please.
Harvey (37:44):
I'm holding you. You're not telling me no, unless you
don't want to be touched. AndI'm like, well...
Pen (37:50):
Which is...
Atlas (37:50):
I am going to clean your kitchen.
Harvey (37:52):
Which he just did.
Atlas (37:53):
Yeah, I did. I did that.
Harvey (37:55):
I did not ask.
Atlas (37:56):
And I did it. And I was like, I'm going to help, and
that's how it's going to be!
Harvey (38:01):
I was literally putting clothes away in my room, and I
pop back into the kitchen tothrow a frozen pizza into the
oven, and I hear him in thekitchen. And I'm like, "What are
you doing?"
Atlas (38:08):
And I'm like, "Nothing."
Harvey (38:10):
So I walk in there and he's cleaning my entire kitchen,
and like...
Atlas (38:13):
I literally had the, like, Lysol in my hand and a
paper towel on the counter. AndI look at you and I'm like,
you've caught me.
Harvey (38:23):
Just like this - this like shh eating grin. Like...
like, thanks. And genuinely,like, it was extremely sweet of
you. And I think this sort ofstarts to segue into the ways in
which neurodivergence is nice ina relationship.
Pen (38:37):
We already talked a little bit on like, being able to
understand each other.
Atlas (38:42):
Oh, God.
Harvey (38:43):
The fact - like, I'm glad that I can give you a space
where you do not have to explainto me that sometimes you're just
nonverbal after being in apublic place.
Pen (38:50):
It's so nice. And I know that you're not upset with me
because you know I'm not mad atyou.
Harvey (38:55):
My God, of course I'm not upset. I'm sorry stores are
awful.
Atlas (38:58):
Yeah.
Pen (39:00):
And there is like, going back to the depression example,
if you're in relationship withsomeone who doesn't have
depression, they can offer yousupport and that's great. And
also, I have seen - I've readarticles about it, I have not
experienced this myself.
Everyone I love is depressed.
(39:21):
But, that it can be verydifficult to try and explain
like, hey, no, I promise I'm not- I just can't. I can't. And
having that, like,misunderstanding and
miscommunication can be so bad,that having people who are like,
no, yeah, of course. What - youdon't have to - you don't have
to justify yourself to me atall.
Harvey (39:42):
Yes, of course. I'll clean your kitchen for you. I
know you've been going throughit.
Atlas (39:45):
Also, and this is just a thing that I tell you, I have
literally seen worse. Like,you... so my uncle has
depression, and at the death ofmy grandpa, we - my mom and I
cleaned that entire condo and itwas very bad. So I've literally
(40:06):
seen worse, so much worse. Andit is not your fault, and I can
help because I don't - I don'thave depression, I probably
experience.
Harvey (40:19):
Wait, you don't?
Atlas (40:20):
I don't think so.
Harvey (40:21):
Huh. How about that.
Atlas (40:23):
Yeah.
Harvey (40:24):
I just kind of assume that all of my loved ones have
depression.
Pen (40:28):
If you or a loved one have experienced-
Harvey (40:29):
You may be entitled to financial compensation.
Atlas (40:32):
I definitely experience, probably, depression - bluh -
depressive episodes, but I donot think that I have depression
all the time.
Harvey (40:43):
I cannot imagine that - this contextualizes why - why
you were so quiet when I wastalking about being chronically
suicidal earlier. Because youwere like, huh?!
Atlas (40:53):
No, I mean, I understand it.
Harvey (40:55):
But like, it's not something you've ever
experienced. So it's just like -well, not like - I'm not saying
you've never felt suicidal, butlike, chronic suicidality, I'm
assuming it's not somethingyou've experienced,
Atlas (41:04):
No, but I - I'm familiar with the concept enough to be
like, okay. That makes sense.
Pen (41:09):
Which is, you know, that's - that's kind of another piece
of it, I think, because I haveexperienced, I think, both sides
of - of this. When I wasyounger, I was, like... I've
talked about this a little bit,that like, my ADHD influences
every other part of myneurodivergence. The only one
(41:30):
that might be a little bit moreseparate is my social anxiety,
but like, the depression, I havedepressive episodes now, and
that is related to my ADHD.
Atlas (41:40):
Yeah, I think that's pretty much very similar to what
I get.
Pen (41:44):
Which, hey, learning that that was a thing, it was
helpful. But when I was younger,I'm sure that the ADHD and
depression were still related.
The depression was absolutely aproblem on its own. It may as
well have just been like, I haveADHD that contributes to
depression, and also majordepressive disorder.
Atlas (42:02):
I think I probably definitely had depression in
high school. I was...
Pen (42:06):
High school sucks.
Atlas (42:07):
High school; okay, uh, private Christian high school
without a diagnosis of anything.
Pen (42:13):
Oh, no!
Atlas (42:13):
Yeah. My.. in elementary school, my teachers were like,
"Hey, get this one checked out,maybe," and my mom said, no.
Pen (42:21):
Oopsies!
Atlas (42:23):
And so I didn't know that, and I figured out that I,
through talking with mytherapist, that I definitely
have ADHD, and that's changedthings.
Pen (42:32):
Yeah. Doesn't it just open all the door?
Atlas (42:36):
It just explains so much.
Pen (42:38):
In retrospect, it's just like, so that's what that... oh.
Atlas (42:42):
Yeah. And I think just being aware of that has helped
so much of being like, oh, okay,so yeah.
Harvey (42:52):
Same thing with my autism. You know what, it was
really funny, I sort of realizedwhen I was dating my first
partner, Chris...
Atlas (43:01):
Love Chris.
Harvey (43:01):
Love him so much - that I was - I realized that I was
autistic, probably when I wasdating him. Like, I kind of had
an inkling when I was - before Imet him, but I was definitely
more unsure about it. Then I methim. I was like, shoot, I think
I'm autistic. And he's like,yeah. Yeah, you are.
Pen (43:19):
It's what it's like when you're the other person is like,
"Did you not know that?"
Atlas (43:24):
You... you didn't know?
Harvey (43:25):
We had that moment, too where you were like, "Yeah,
sometimes I wonder if I'mautistic." And I'm like, wait,
you're not diagnosed?
Pen (43:31):
And I have seen your...
your autism journey, Harvey,from the outside.
Harvey (43:38):
Like - like your gender journey? Inside joke about one
of the Pen's past therapists.
Pen (43:44):
She was trying her best, but she missed the mark. And...
but yeah, so like, understandingeach other, being able to
support each other, being ableto be on the outside, like,
yeah, no, what you'reexperiencing is, like... you
know, baseline what you'reexperiencing is valid, and I
love you and I support you, andalso yeah, you're neurodiverse!
Harvey (44:04):
Was this ever a question?
Pen (44:05):
Honey, do you not know that? Like, having someone who
can be the objective outsider,who still cares for you, and
also just has these fundamentalunderstandings of what it's like
to exist in...
Atlas (44:16):
Super validating.
Pen (44:17):
...in, like, a brain, like [inaudible] oh, oh God.
Atlas (44:21):
I'm a little bit of both your brains.
Harvey (44:22):
You had your first panic attack with me.
Atlas (44:25):
Yes.
Harvey (44:27):
But of all the people that have a panic attack with.
Pen (44:29):
Oh, Harvey's a great person have a panic attack with.
Harvey (44:31):
I spent a good chunk of that time telling you stories
about cells. I startedexplaining to him the
psychological mechanisms behinda panic attack. And it did
genuinely help, it seemed.
Pen (44:42):
I love it when Harvey does that!
Atlas (44:44):
It's really good!
Harvey (44:45):
You benefited from understanding what your body was
doing.
Atlas (44:47):
Yeah, the panic attack was an hour long.
Harvey (44:50):
It was a really long one.
Pen (44:51):
Oh, God, that's so... oh, yikesies.
Atlas (44:53):
Yeah, lots of literally shivering. Like, that's how bad
it was. I never experienced thatbefore, and Harvey said it was
very bad.
Harvey (45:02):
It was genuinely like a super bad panic attack.
Pen (45:05):
Oh, wow, this is—
Harvey (45:07):
Worse than anything I've ever experienced. I was sitting
there like, Whoa! Yeah, so hey,another benefit...
Pen (45:15):
Longtime listeners of Beyond Introspection podcast
might understand when Harveysays that an anxiety or panic
attack is bad...
Atlas (45:21):
It's bad.
Yeah.
It is not fun.
Harvey (45:26):
And no, but that, and you know that's the—that's,
again with theexperiential—sometimes it's the
experiential understanding too,that like, Oh, this is the first
time you're going through this.
I've done this so many times Iknow what's going on and I know
that I can help you.
Atlas (45:39):
Yeah.
Pen (45:40):
And that this is like how I can...
Atlas (45:41):
Yeah. Because I think if I was—honestly if I was by
myself or with someone else, itwould have been so much worse.
Harvey (45:51):
Yeah.
Pen (45:52):
Mhm.
Yeah, this is, this is a verygood thing that like
understanding each other andhaving, again, like that
experiential knowledge is so soso helpful. Because being
neurodivergent is an experience.
It's one that we're all justgoing to have, for all of it the
whole time.
Atlas (46:08):
Isn't it kind of just nutty that there are people who
don't experience thedisabilities in their brain?
Pen (46:14):
Nutty is—I love the word nutty for it.
Harvey (46:16):
That's a good one.
Pen (46:18):
And also, yeah, I straight up don't get... like, what's it
like?
Harvey (46:25):
To not have disabilities in your brain?
Atlas (46:27):
Yeah. Where the disabilities are stored.
Harvey (46:29):
That's where the disabilities are stored.
Pen (46:31):
Dallas said several times yesterday, I like it a lot
uh, we contain multitudes.
Harvey & Atlas (46:36):
Yes!
Atlas (46:37):
Yep.
Harvey (46:37):
I love Dallas so much.
Atlas (46:39):
God, Dallas is amazing.
Pen (46:40):
Dallas is great.
Atlas (46:42):
He's my boss, kind of.
Pen (46:44):
That's fun.
Atlas (46:44):
Yeah.
Harvey (46:45):
He's going to be my roommate. And he's your friend.
Pen (46:49):
Yeah, we're gonna listen to more podcast stuff together.
Atlas (46:53):
Shout out to Dallas. If you're listening, we all love
you.
Pen (46:55):
Does Dallas know that this podcast exists?
Harvey (46:57):
I have no idea.
Atlas (46:59):
We should tell him.
Harvey (46:59):
We should.
Atlas (47:01):
Hey Dallas, you should listen to this episode at this
time, specifically.
Pen (47:05):
And then like an out of context clip. I would be happy
to make and like [beep sound].
And then text back like, what isthis from? Were you guys just
sitting there talking about me?
Atlas (47:14):
Yes. That is actually what's happening.
Pen (47:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (47:18):
More or less. Why don't we all share at least one more
nice thing.
Pen (47:23):
Yes.
Harvey (47:23):
About neurodivergence and relationships.
Pen (47:25):
[Gasp]
Harvey (47:26):
Yes. That was so cute.
Go on.
Atlas (47:29):
That was adorable.
Pen (47:30):
I got very excited because—and this is actually
directly related to what itis—my girlfriend and I both have
ADHD. And there's—
Harvey (47:36):
I love it when you say your girlfriend. Go on.
Atlas (47:38):
It's so good.
Pen (47:39):
I like saying my girlfriend. I'm queer. I'm
bisexual.
Atlas (47:42):
Whoa!
Pen (47:43):
Isn't that so cool of me?
Harvey (47:44):
So poggers.
Atlas (47:45):
Right? You and Harvey—
Harvey (47:46):
Bisexual. I don't know what you are.
Atlas (47:48):
I'm just kind of.
Harvey (47:50):
Yeah, you did identify as a lesbian until you ended up
down bad for me.
Atlas (47:53):
Yep. And that's funny because I still have the lesbian
flag hanging up in my dorm room.
Pen (47:57):
Sometimes there's just an asterisk.
Atlas (47:59):
I really want to get both the woman loving—Well, I already
have the lesbian or woman lovingwoman flag. I really want to get
the man loving man flag—
Harvey (48:07):
The toothpaste flag.
Atlas (48:09):
Crest sponsored flag.
Harvey (48:12):
Have them both in your apartment.
Atlas (48:13):
I want to have them both and like the nonbinary flag
right in between them. And Ijust want people to figure it
out on their own.
Pen (48:19):
This is fun. This is a fun art installation.
Atlas (48:21):
I like women in the gay way and I like men, asterisk, in
the gay way.
Pen (48:26):
Yeah.
Atlas (48:26):
So...
Pen (48:27):
And if you don't understand what that means, um...
Harvey (48:29):
Sorry!
Pen (48:32):
Sorry.
Atlas (48:33):
I like people. It always has to be gay.
Pen (48:35):
Yes, that's what it's like when you're nonbinary.
Harvey (48:38):
Yeah.
Pen (48:41):
The temptation there, by the way, to be like, if you
don't understand what that'slike, do I have the terminology
list for you?
Harvey (48:50):
Introducing...!
Atlas (48:52):
Well also that's kind of fun about...me and Harvey also
experience gender in a verysimilar way as well.
Harvey (48:57):
Yeah. Which is unrelated—Well. Well, I was
about to say it's totallyunrelated to neurodivergence but
it's totally related.
Atlas (49:03):
Most autistic—well, I shouldn't say most. A lot of
autistic people have issues withgender.
Harvey (49:08):
The...the science does point to a disproportionate
peop—uh, A disproportionateamount of autistic people are
also trans.
Pen (49:18):
I think we've talked about this before.
Harvey (49:19):
I believe in the autism episode.
Pen (49:21):
Yeah. On like, how, you know, having more difficulty
perceiving social constructswhen gender is one of those.
It's fake. Also, y'all arelactose intolerant, huh?
Atlas (49:31):
No.
Pen (49:33):
You're not?
Atlas (49:33):
No.
Pen (49:34):
You may be the first...one a very few autistic people I've
met who is not lactoseintolerant.
Atlas (49:38):
Not lactose intolerant.
Pen (49:39):
Wow.
Atlas (49:40):
Crazy.
Harvey (49:41):
Lack toes and toddler ants.
Atlas (49:43):
Yeah, hon.
Harvey (49:44):
I'm so smart. Go on, you and your girlfriend—
Atlas (49:46):
I want to get—sorry.
Harvey (49:48):
No, what's up?
Atlas (49:48):
I want to get you the I can't drink milk shirt or I'll
die, whatever the—It's like aD.A.R.E. shirt but it's just
don't let me drink milk.
Harvey (49:57):
I will die.
Pen (49:59):
Look, I try to help with this, but it doesn't work.
Harvey just drinks the milk.
Atlas (50:04):
That's just lactose intolerant people.
Harvey (50:05):
No one can stop me, milk is delicious. So Pen, your
girlfriend.
Pen (50:08):
Yes, my girlfriend.
Atlas (50:09):
Your girlfriend.
Pen (50:10):
We both have ADHD, which is cool and fun. And that means
that obviously both of us gethyper fixations and get very
interested in things. And wealso infodump, and one of my
favorite things ever is when weget excited about each other
info dumping. And we're like, Iwant to talk about this. And
we're like, Yeah, do it! Like Iwill get super excited to like,
(50:31):
I like knowing things. It's uh,I have said for many years now I
am the best at Emily trivia. Shewill be talking about a thing,
and I'll be like, Oh, it's fromthis! It's this thing. You told
me this is what it is!
Harvey (50:40):
Emily trivia night.
Pen (50:43):
Because I like to say like, I paid attention! I know that
thing about you!
Atlas (50:46):
It's hard to pay attention sometimes. And if you
know that many things aboutanother person. Oh, my goodness.
Pen (50:51):
I just like to—I mean, I like to express like, Hey, I was
listening and paying attention.
And also I get excited when Iknow things. Which might not, it
might sound like a silly thing.
If you aren't, I don't know ifthat's an ADHD thing, or if it's
just a Pen thing, but I love toknow facts. And then she will
get like, super into me,explaining like video games that
(51:16):
I'm into or things like thatshe'll be like, yeah. Yeah, do
it! Just, just excited becauseI'm excited. And having that
understanding of like, you knowwhy we're both so excited or
that we're just gonna go offabout this. Like, info dumping
to neurotypical people is such aweird...It can be very strange.
Atlas (51:36):
Harvey likes when I talk about artistic—
Harvey (51:39):
And plants.
Atlas (51:40):
Oh my god, I love plants.
Harvey (51:42):
I love setting him loose in a plant area.
Atlas (51:46):
There were so many plants in the back alley market and you
just saw me get very excited.
Harvey (51:50):
It was so sweet.
Atlas (51:51):
And vintage, vintage glass. I get so excited about
that stuff.
Harvey (51:56):
My heart almost broke when it turned out that that one
piece you wanted didn't—theydidn't accept cash and there was
like, wait, I have singles!
Atlas (52:05):
And I put a plant in that. The plant clipping that I
got, in the glass. It's both ofmy favorite things.
Harvey (52:13):
That's lovely.
Pen (52:14):
I remember you were you were you were going off about
Atlas (52:17):
The Pyrex?
the—
Pen (52:19):
Yeah the pyrex, and I looked at you and said, Yeah,
you're Harvey's type. If youguys weren't already dating and
I met you I would go home and belike Harvey I have met. I've met
the boy of your dreams.
Harvey (52:29):
[sing-song] Tell me that the man of my dreams. Anyway,
this is just a really innocuousone. But one of my favorite
things about beingneurodivergent and dating
another neurodivergent person.
Mutual stimming.
Atlas (52:44):
Oh my god.
Pen (52:45):
Yes!
Harvey (52:45):
I like, yeah, you told me that I couldn't bite you on
the podcast, but you will justlet me chew on your fingers.
Pen (52:51):
Sometimes that's just what it is.
Atlas (52:53):
Yeah, and I really like when you lay on top of me.
Harvey (52:59):
Yep.
Atlas (53:00):
Just pressure.
Harvey (53:01):
We both like being rocked back and forth.
Atlas (53:03):
Oh my god. Yes.
Pen (53:04):
Vestibular stimming...
Atlas (53:06):
I think that's why I like roller coasters so much.
Pen (53:09):
Dope.
Harvey (53:10):
Can't relate, I hate roller coasters.
Pen (53:12):
Also, stimulation go fast.
Atlas (53:15):
Uh huh.
Harvey (53:15):
I do like to go fast.
Atlas (53:17):
Through air—
Pen (53:17):
Fast, quick.
Harvey (53:18):
I really wish there was someone, like, I miss being a
child. And like when I was akid, my dad used to just chuck
me across a room onto like a bedor a couch. I wish someone was
strong enough to just throw meat something.
Atlas (53:30):
My dad would take me and my siblings by the arms and just
spin us around. Like, like afucking windmill.
Harvey (53:37):
My dad also used to grab me by the ankles and just dangle
me upside down.
Atlas (53:41):
Oh, yeah.
Harvey (53:41):
And I loved that when I was a kid.
Atlas (53:44):
Playgrounds?
Harvey (53:45):
Oh my god. Atlas. What's the...what's one more nice thing
for you about datingneurodivergent people? I suppose
neurodivergent person?
Atlas (53:54):
Yeah.
Pen (53:56):
Neurodivergent Harvey.
Harvey (53:57):
Tell me nice thing—No.
Atlas (54:00):
What's something nice about dating Harvey?
Pen (54:03):
There's just so many things.
Atlas (54:04):
So many things.
Harvey (54:05):
Oh, y'all are sweet.
Atlas (54:07):
I'm trying to think of something.
Pen (54:09):
We're just accurate, Harvey. I like to know facts.
Harvey (54:11):
I'm going to bite you.
Pen (54:13):
You can try. Also, I mean, yeah, sure.
Atlas (54:16):
Did we already talked about inherent understanding?
Without explanation?
Pen (54:22):
Yes, several times, but that doesn't mean you can't say
it again.
Harvey (54:24):
Yeah.
Atlas (54:25):
That's kind of...
Harvey (54:26):
Is that like the big one for you?
Atlas (54:27):
Yeah, that's a big one.
Just the understanding. Like,sometimes you just don't have to
explain things and that's nice.
I'm trying to think of somethingelse.
Harvey (54:36):
It's okay if you can't.
Pen (54:36):
It's alright.
Atlas (54:37):
I know. But I want to.
Harvey (54:38):
We can—Well, we this is usually the part in the episode
and we really should, where westart to wrap things up. So if
you want to, you can share thatas a last thought while we go
around. But Pen, do you have anyclosing thoughts about dating
while neurodivergent?
Pen (54:52):
Um, it is something that can be—it is something that can
be so personal. It's somethingthat can be great and awesome,
because you're able to supporteach other in unique ways. And
it's something that can be soincredibly challenging because
you cannot support each other insome unique ways.
And it is something that I thinkin order to be, in order for any
(55:15):
relationship to be successful,you have to put thought into it.
And you have to really try toopen up and communicate and
understand yourself better inorder to understand the other
person better. And I think thatthat is particularly important
with neurodivergence, becauseyour emotional growth and
ability to understand yourselfwill directly correlate to the
(55:36):
success and health of yourrelationships, romantic,
platonic, familial, and just allof them.
Harvey (55:43):
Yeah.
Pen (55:44):
And that is something I think to keep in mind because
the rewards are fantastic andcan be so amazing. And it is so
important to be cognizant thatyou should never stop putting
things in. And uh...we're allcool.
Atlas (56:05):
Yeah.
Harvey (56:06):
That's very true. The thought that I had is not family
friendly. So I'm not going toshare it. But in any case—
Atlas (56:16):
Tell us after.
Harvey (56:17):
Yeah, I will. But in any case, dating neurodivergent
people is so cool. And epic andpoggers and based.
Atlas (56:23):
Yeah, okay.
Harvey (56:25):
That's it.
Pen (56:25):
Really sorry to all of our, like, 40 plus year old listeners
who just heard that, and hadnothing.
Harvey (56:34):
And have to google like three new words.
Atlas (56:36):
So sarvey.
Pen (56:37):
So sarvey.
Atlas (56:39):
Um, yeah, dating neurodivergent people is nice.
And...
Harvey (56:48):
Thank you.
Atlas (56:48):
Kiss. Um, it has its unique challenges and has its
unique benefits, like any kindof relationship ever.
Harvey (56:58):
But honestly, the benefits for me outweigh the
costs. So much.
Atlas (57:02):
Yeah, it's, it is worth it.
Pen (57:04):
Having had to explain to people some of like, the basics
of what it is like to exist inmy brain with like, ADHD
presents such unique things thatbeing in a relationship with
someone who just gets it, and Idon't have to tell her like, so
this is a thing that justhappens with me. It's like, we
just know. And that is...
Atlas (57:27):
Relieving.
Pen (57:28):
Yes.
Harvey (57:29):
It so much less labor.
Pen (57:31):
To not feel othered in your own relationship.
Harvey (57:37):
To just feel like a part of it.
Atlas (57:38):
Yeah.
Pen (57:40):
That is a level of intimacy that is so—can be, can be just
so beautiful.
Atlas (57:46):
Yeah. Like you don't have to, like, put in so much labor
for basic intimacy stuff. Whichis nice.
Pen (57:52):
Yeah, that is, I think that's really good. That's a
very good way to put it to nothave to put in so much labor for
basic intimacy.
Harvey (57:58):
That is a wonderful way to close this out, I think. So,
stick around for just a few moremoments, we'll tell you a little
bit more about how this podcastis run.
Beyond introspection is anindependently run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atBYNDpodcast. Or you can email us
(58:20):
at beyonddot—that's D O T—podcast@gmail.com. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description. Gotfeedback for us? Feel free to
reach out on social media or viaemail. We'd love to hear from
everyone. Take care ofyourselves.
Hello everybody, and welcome to Beyond Introspection,
a podcast about mental health,neurodivergence, and how it
impacts literally every aspectof our lives.
Harvey (00:19):
All of them.
Pen (00:21):
Thank you, Harvey. I liked that one. I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:23):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:24):
And we have a guest - special guest this episode...
Harvey (00:28):
Special musical guest star Cher. Just kidding. My
boyfriend, Atlas.
Pen (00:30):
Yes.
Atlas (00:31):
Hello, I'm here.
Pen (00:32):
Yes.
Harvey (00:33):
That's Atlas.
Atlas (00:33):
It's me.
Pen (00:34):
Atlas, do you want to, uh - when we've had guests before,
we've had them say, like, maybea couple of things about
themselves, pronouns, whateveryou want to do.
Harvey (00:43):
It's your choice.
Atlas (00:43):
Oh, vibes. Okay. Um, I use they/he pronouns, and I'm an
art history major, which iscool.
Pen (00:49):
That is cool.
Harvey (00:50):
That is.
Pen (00:51):
I like that.
Harvey (00:51):
I have a type. For reference, I don't think I've
ever talked about this on thepodcast, all of my partners are
art students, or aspiring artstudents.
Pen (01:00):
It's... it's fun. It's a very... Harvey... art. I don't
have a good joke.
Harvey (01:06):
That's okay.
Atlas (01:07):
Yeah.
Pen (01:07):
All right.
Harvey (01:09):
I don't know if you had more to say.
Atlas (01:10):
Nope. That's it. That's all. That's me. [Crosstalk]
Pen (01:15):
Yeah. So with - with our previous guest episodes, we've
done things like talking aboutbeing Black with mental health.
Harvey (01:22):
Which, hey, we needed guests for that one, because we
are white.
Pen (01:25):
Yeah, no, that would - that would have [inaudible]
Harvey (01:27):
God.
Pen (01:27):
That would have been such a bad idea. But instead, we, uh -
we know, some really incrediblefolks who... who talked with us
on that, or with Demetrea andthe DSM, which was so fun.
Harvey (01:38):
What a good episode. And then your dad.
Pen (01:40):
My dad and genetics, so this might seem less obvious,
because Atlas does not havenecessarily bona fides for being
Harvey's partner, other thanjust being, you know, cool.
Atlas (01:52):
Thanks.
Pen (01:52):
We like Atlas here.
Harvey (01:53):
We do.
Atlas (01:54):
Thank you.
Pen (01:55):
But what we're going to talk about today is being in a
relationship when both of you -or all of you, as the case may
be, are neurodivergent.
Specifically, how it interactswith, like, burnout in
relationships, and, like, givinga lot of yourself, which is a
problem that all three of ushave.
Atlas (02:17):
Yep.
Harvey (02:18):
You know, but also the ways in which it is good and
nice.
Pen (02:20):
Yes, yeah. The... the, like, pros and cons, and - and
things that help to be consciousof, which is something that, uh,
wanted to pull Atlas in for,because Atlas has been really,
really good for Harvey in thatrespect.
Harvey (02:31):
This is also a very last minute episode, we decided -
well, not - topic. Last minutetopic. We decided on it an hour
ago.
Pen (02:38):
Yep. It was a good idea.
Atlas (02:41):
And I was like, Hey, can I be in the room? And then Pen
was like...
Harvey (02:43):
"Do want to be on the episode?"
Atlas (02:44):
And I was like, yes.
Pen (02:47):
And I'm right about everything, as we just
discussed.
Yeah, we were talking about howyou are the law.
I am the law. Atlas calledHarvey adorable, and Harvey was
like, "Mmm... no."
Harvey (02:56):
I maintain that you haven't proven anything.
Pen (02:58):
I maintain that you didn't have a good argument besides,
"No."
Atlas (03:03):
Yep.
Pen (03:03):
Which I can say, as a communication studies major, is
not what an argument is.
Atlas (03:10):
And my argument was Pen is the law, and Pen agrees with
me. And we are two individuals.
Which also is not a goodargument, but is better than,
"No."
Harvey (03:19):
Whatever.
Atlas (03:19):
Hee hee.
Harvey (03:21):
But, before we get too, ahead of ourselves, Pen.
Pen (03:24):
Harvey.
Harvey (03:25):
Tell me about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen (03:29):
Wahoo!
Harvey (03:29):
Yeah, there you go.
Pen (03:30):
Yeah, I actually thought about this earlier, believe it
or not.
Harvey (03:34):
Yay!
Pen (03:35):
I can't believe it. Yeah, so - well, I mean, we say of the
week. How about the month.
Harvey (03:40):
Oh, true. you're so right.
Pen (03:43):
Thank you. I know! Harvey's flipping me off. Yeah, my Wahoo!
Moment is actually yesterday. Iwent with Harvey, and Atlas, and
a mutual friend of ours, Dallas,to... there was a cool - it's
called the Back Alley Market.
Which, by the way, Atlas, whenyou were like, "Hey, Pen, do you
(04:03):
want to come to the Back AlleyMarket?" I had no fu- I had no
idea what you were talkingabout.
Atlas (04:09):
It sounds so shady, but it literally was in the middle
of streets.
Pen (04:14):
Yeah, it was - it was just like a cool, like...
Atlas (04:16):
During the day.
Harvey (04:17):
[crosstalk] ... downtown area of our town.
Atlas (04:19):
A bunch of crafts and fun things.
Harvey (04:21):
Like thrift things.
Pen (04:22):
There was some goat's milk soap, you know, the kind of
place where you have goat's milksoap.
Harvey (04:26):
I bought fancy olive oil.
Pen (04:28):
I also got some of the fancy olive oil because its
dope.
Atlas (04:31):
Oh, yeah. I got a little garlic grinder thingy, and sexy
lady candle.
Pen (04:37):
I didn't know that you got that! That's fun! But it was -
it was really, really nice. It'sthe kind of thing that I liked
going to, it was actually goodweather for once in our
Midwestern lives. But, yeah,it's, uh... it was a really,
really nice day, even though Ihad to be a functional person
before 9am for it.
Atlas (04:57):
Sorry about that, homie.
Pen (04:58):
No, no, it was fine. It was good for me in the end. But
yeah, no, it was great. I'vedone social things lately, which
is good for my brain.
Atlas (05:04):
Social things are important.
Pen (05:06):
Yeah, they're also incredibly difficult. Anyway,
Harvey?
Harvey (05:12):
Yes?
Pen (05:13):
What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Month?
Harvey (05:17):
You say it in the exact same way every time and I am so
tickled by it.
Atlas (05:21):
It's very adorable.
Pen (05:21):
Thank you. I'm neurodivergent.
Harvey (05:22):
You are. I'm so - God, you're so sexy for it.
Pen (05:28):
We were just talking yesterday about how Harvey and I
fake flirt all the time, andthen say constantly that we're
not a couple in a way thatsounds so much like just the
over denial.
Atlas (05:39):
You're both gonna fake kiss and then commit to it at
the same time, and then it'sjust gonna happen sometime.
Pen (05:44):
And now three people have talked about that on the
podcast.
Harvey (05:47):
Anyway! So, gosh, I have a couple things I could draw on.
I'm gonna steer away from-
Pen (05:54):
You're gonna draw? But it's an audio medium!
Harvey (05:56):
[Sarcastically] Haha.
Funny.
Pen (05:58):
It was funny, thanks.
Harvey (06:02):
Derogatory. Funny, derogatory. No, um, anytime I
draw on my partner's, Penbullies me, which is fair.
Pen (06:12):
I don't bully you. I just point it out, usually because
you point it out.
Harvey (06:17):
Anyway. I am about to graduate college in a week.
Pen (06:22):
Oh, my God, it's in a week?!
Harvey (06:24):
Yeah, I'm not going to my commencement, but I'm
graduating, and I get my sillylittle diploma. My silly little
piece of paper that certifiesthat I took 120 credit hours,
and...
Atlas (06:35):
That's so many.
Harvey (06:36):
And unrelated to that, well, semi-related. I'm supposed
to hear back about a job onMonday or maybe Tuesday, so I'll
know whether or not I havemoney. And if I don't, well,
we'll figure it out.
Pen (06:49):
Yeah, that's - that's a fair - that's a - that's a
Wahoo?
Harvey (06:54):
Kinda. I'm excited to graduate college.
Pen (06:57):
Yeah, I'm excited for you.
It's also weird and you need tostop aging.
Harvey (07:01):
It's, uh... it's - it's been a long road, and I'm -
you've watched me the wholetime.
Pen (07:05):
I have. I was just talking about that, actually, with, uh,
with Dallas when we hung out onFriday.
Harvey (07:11):
Oh?
Pen (07:12):
How absolutely wild it was when I met you and Em, and you
were freshmen, and I got towatch you and, like, your first
semester of college and be like,oh... aw, guys, no, it's gonna
be okay. No, that's gonna belike... aw, baby's first
breakdowns during, like,midterms and finals. And it's
like, oh, no, it's okay. You getused to it.
Harvey (07:32):
And I did!
Atlas (07:33):
The worst part of college and getting used to breakdowns.
Harvey (07:35):
And now I just cry a little bit. Atlas, do you have a
Wahoo? We don't usually ask ourguests, but I feel like we
should. Do you have a Wahoo!Moment of the Month to share?
Atlas (07:45):
Well, yes, I do. Pen took mine, technically, but...
Pen (07:49):
You can say the same one.
Atlas (07:50):
I'm gonna make a new one up because there is multiple
things. I was nominated andgifted a Art History award...
Pen (08:01):
Whoa!
Atlas (08:02):
...through my college. I was nominated by one of my
professors, which means I got$500.
Pen (08:07):
Yo, dope!
Atlas (08:08):
It's great.
Harvey & Pen (08:08):
Yeah.
Atlas (08:09):
I will take free money.
Pen (08:11):
That's - that's rad! Congratulations!
Harvey (08:13):
And it's because you're very intelligent and very good
at what you do.
Atlas (08:15):
Thank you.
Pen (08:16):
That is so swag. And Epic.
Atlas (08:19):
Yeah.
Pen (08:19):
It's swagepic.
Atlas (08:20):
I got the email, and I was like, "Oh!" That's the exact
noise I made.
Pen (08:24):
I love that. I love that a lot.
Harvey (08:27):
I wasn't in the room, so I wouldn't know.
Atlas (08:28):
Yeah. I at least made it in my mind. I think it was
probably in my dorm, and if Ihad done that out loud, Shelby,
my roommate would have beenlike, "What - What are you
doing?"
Harvey (08:37):
Why?
Atlas (08:37):
Why?
Harvey (08:38):
Why?
Pen (08:38):
Why have you done this? I did not ask for it.
Harvey (08:42):
Okay, you can tell that we're all neurodivergent,
because we are trying so hard tostay on task.
Pen (08:48):
We're doing our best, and it's gonna be fun. This is a
podcast by neurodivergentpeople.
Harvey (08:53):
It's our podcast, and we can do what we want!
Pen (08:55):
Folks who don't want to listen to neurodivergent people
being neurodivergent, I don't...
think this podcast is gonna workwell for you. And I'm confused
as to why - why you're listeningto it, but you know what? Have
fun, I guess.
Atlas (09:10):
Go off.
Pen (09:12):
Go... go get it, I guess.
Harvey (09:14):
Ooh, yeah, get it, I guess.
Pen (09:15):
Thank you, thank you. I forgot how it went, and I was
going to do a cuss, but Ididn't. Are you proud of me,
Harvey ,for not cussing?
Harvey (09:23):
Yes.
Pen (09:23):
Thank you.
Atlas (09:23):
I've been concentrating so hard not to cuss.
Pen (09:28):
This is a family friendly show where we talk about making
out with each other.
Harvey (09:34):
It's entirely so we don't get flagged as explicit.
Atlas (09:37):
That's dumb and homophobic.
Pen (09:40):
Things are... yeah. So, we are all in relationships. That
sounds a little silly, giventhat I've - that we've
introduced Atlas Harvey'spartner. I am also in a
relationship, is a more accurateand sensible way to put it.
Harvey (09:55):
But not with me or Atlas.
Pen (09:56):
No.
No, no, my - but mygirlfriend also has ADHD. Which,
Atlas (09:57):
With netiher of us.
can I just say, called it!
Harvey (10:03):
And also composed the music. Composed and performed
the music for this podcast.
Pen (10:08):
Which is so... ah, every time I listen to it while I'm
doing the editing, I'm alwayslike, "Dang, I wish I could
listen to an album of this."
Atlas (10:15):
It's very good. I like it. I didn't know that - that
she had done that, and Harveytold me that was her, and I was
like, [gasping]
Pen (10:21):
Yes, it's - it's very good.
She's very, very talented, veryskilled.
Atlas (10:25):
Love her.
Pen (10:26):
So she has ADHD, and anxiety, and depression.
Which...
Harvey (10:31):
Heyyy.
Pen (10:31):
Hi, I'm Pen, and I have ADHD.
Harvey (10:35):
And depression.
Pen (10:36):
And depressive things because of the ADHD. And - and,
uh, intense social anxietythat's been debilitating for my
entire life, but that's gettingbetter. And Harvey, all of - all
of your partners are alsoneurodivergent, yes?
Harvey (10:53):
Yeah, so that one's funny. I have five partners,
because there's something wrongwith me.
Atlas (10:56):
You're stopping. I'm cutting you off.
Pen (10:57):
Because you have five fingers on each hand?
Harvey (10:59):
I promise - yes, because I have five fingers on each
hand.
Pen (11:02):
Harvey has two hands and five fingers.
Harvey (11:04):
Two fingers for each boyfriend.
Pen (11:06):
Dope!
Harvey (11:07):
So...
Pen (11:08):
It's math, so it makes sense and works out.
Harvey (11:11):
So, in any case, yeah.
So... and yes, I am done. Ipromise. I'm done.
Atlas (11:17):
You're done. I'm cutting you off.
Harvey (11:19):
You're done.
Pen (11:19):
I am also cutting you off.
Atlas (11:22):
The only reason I'm okay is because it's me.
Harvey (11:26):
I mean, genuinely...
Pen (11:26):
I mean, low-key not a joke, though.
Atlas (11:29):
I am the newest addition.
Harvey (11:31):
It worked out. Yeah, we've been dating for just about
a month. It worked out and we'llget into why in a bit. But yes,
all of my partners, includingme, are neurodivergent. I am the
only one with ADHD, and mypartner Maddox is the-
Pen (11:42):
No, autism!
Atlas (11:43):
You're the only one with autism.
Harvey (11:45):
I said I'm the only one without ADHD.
Pen (11:47):
You said with.
Harvey (11:47):
Oh, my bad. I'm the only one without ADHD. And my
partner, Maddox, is the only onewithout autism. So...
Pen (11:56):
You, me, autism.
Harvey (11:58):
Autism. So, yeah, it - the whole polycule is, uh,
neurodivergent. Soneurodivergent.
Pen (12:08):
With a lot of overlap!
Atlas (12:09):
Every time you say neurodivergent, I always want to
add, "And a minor," but no oneis a minor.
Harvey (12:14):
No.
Pen (12:14):
No one. There are - no, there are no...
Atlas (12:17):
There are no minors.
Pen (12:18):
That would be...
Atlas (12:18):
It's just a funny joke.
Harvey (12:19):
Umm, I'm literally neurodivergent and an adult.
Pen (12:24):
If you're not chronically online, that's not gonna make
any sense.
Atlas (12:27):
Nope.
Harvey (12:28):
But it's okay.
Pen (12:29):
We tell jokes sometimes.
Sometimes we're in our 20s andI'm really sorry about that for
all of our listeners.
Atlas (12:34):
Yeah.
Harvey (12:34):
Especially the ones that are over 35.
Atlas (12:36):
Sorry we're in our 20s.
Pen (12:38):
I'm sorry, mom.
Harvey (12:40):
So, yeah, and I've been dating neurodivergent people the
entire time. I don't know...
Pen (12:48):
The whole time?
Harvey (12:48):
Huh?
Pen (12:49):
The whole time!
Harvey & Atlas (12:50):
The whole time!
Harvey (12:51):
The whole time. Because one of my exes Skylar, I don't
know if he had ADHD or autism,but he did have, like, mental
illness, so not fullyneurotypical. And my - my most
recent ex, Louis, had autism. SoI just - I date neurodivergent
(13:11):
people, almost exclusively.
Atlas (13:13):
Yeah.
Pen (13:13):
ND4ND.
Harvey (13:15):
Yeah, lowkey.
Pen (13:18):
Which is... I mean, I get it. I have also... have all
my...? I suppose I don't knowabout him. I - because I have
had the one boyfriend...
Harvey (13:27):
Oh, God, right.
Pen (13:27):
...but I was 14. Yeah.
Harvey (13:29):
I mean, that barely counts.
Pen (13:31):
It was a thing. It was not good. But anyway, since then...
she has autism. She... well, Idon't actually know what she
had, but like, if she didn't,then that would be wild. She
almost certainly did. Anddoes... yeah, I think I've - I
have also exclusively hadneurodivergent partners except I
(13:54):
don't know about... I shouldn'tname drop him. That'd be weird.
Harvey (13:57):
Your ex-boyfriend?
Pen (13:58):
Yeah, my singular boyfriend.
Atlas (14:00):
Just the one.
Pen (14:01):
Yeah, just the single - just a single one. I mean, I
thought I was a girl at thetime. That was fun. I was in a
heterosexual relationship.
Harvey (14:08):
No.
Atlas (14:09):
Bad.
Harvey (14:09):
No, heart.
Atlas (14:11):
Thumbs down.
Pen (14:12):
Don't worry. I got well soon.
Atlas (14:14):
Congratulations.
Harvey (14:15):
Congrats.
Pen (14:15):
Thank you. So yes, we've had - we've had neurodivergent
partners. Atlas, you don't haveto expose your dating history if
you don't want to.
Atlas (14:25):
I'd rather not.
Pen (14:25):
Yeah, that's - and there we go. Harvey and I are the only
ones obligated to stripourselves bear on the podcast.
Harvey (14:34):
No, it's okay. We do it for fun.
Pen (14:36):
Yeah, no, that's the - that's... we're quirky.
Harvey (14:41):
Never call me quirky again. [Laughter]
Pen (14:42):
Um, but, yes. So let's talk about that. Huh? Neurodivergent
partners?
Atlas (14:53):
Yeah.
Harvey (14:53):
Yeah, okay.
Pen (14:55):
Um, do we want to do the creative writing thing of
talking about the good partsfirst, or do we want to do the
thing where we talk about the -the troubling things first, and
then end on a positive note?
Harvey (15:07):
I hate making decisions.
Hang on.
Atlas (15:09):
Harvey making a decision in their life?
Pen (15:09):
Yep. [coin rattling] Oh, that's good audio.
Harvey (15:12):
I have an idea. I'm gonna flip a coin.
Tails.
Pen (15:30):
That was the bad, right?
Harvey (15:31):
Yeah, we start with the bad.
Pen (15:32):
Okay, cool, I also instantly forgot.
Atlas (15:34):
ADHD!
Pen (15:35):
Yeah!
Harvey (15:36):
Yeah, we start with the bad.
Pen (15:37):
Okay. Yeah, it's a good thing Harvey and I don't both
have ADHD. It would be so...
Atlas (15:41):
Oh, no.
Pen (15:42):
The podcast would just be like, so y'all just talked, huh?
No topic or anything?
Atlas (15:47):
No, no, just conversations.
Pen (15:48):
Which we get dangerously close to anyway, but... So the
troubling things. Well, you knowhow with depression, you don't
have motivation to do anything?
Atlas (16:03):
Yes.
Pen (16:04):
And you can't really pull yourself out of it very well.
And it's like, completelydebilitating and totally messes
you up. And it can, like, reallyput a lot of strain on a
relationship, nd often you needhelp from other people.
Atlas (16:18):
Yeah.
Harvey (16:19):
Oh, yeah.
Atlas (16:19):
What if both?
I know it's - it sucks.
Pen (16:22):
It's miserable.
Atlas (16:24):
When you're both absolutely going through it, and
it's like, you don't know whatto do with your hands. Like, who
holds who?
Harvey (16:31):
Which is kind of the spot we've been in for the
past...
Atlas (16:34):
Yep.
Harvey (16:35):
...couple weeks?
Atlas (16:36):
Yep.
Harvey (16:36):
Probably the whole time we've been dating, let's be
real.
Atlas (16:38):
Yep. [laughter]
Pen (16:40):
It is very difficult to you know, you want to support your
partner. You want to be therefor them. And then you can't be
there for yourself.
Atlas (16:50):
Yep.
Pen (16:50):
So how do you... it becomes...
Harvey (16:54):
I need help.
Pen (16:55):
Yes. So that's - that's one. Which is, I know, for - for
Harvey and other depression.
It's just kind of like, well,yeah, that just happens
sometimes, and is kind of analways.
Harvey (17:08):
I'm always at least a little bit depressed. I'm
chronically suicidal, even,which can be really rough on
relationships.
Pen (17:15):
Which is... it's different if you have a partner who is not
Yeah, yeah. It's... andthat - it can sometimes come out
of the blue, and that can really- like, that just fundamentally
neurodivergent, or a partner whojust doesn't experience
causes a strain on arelationship.
Harvey (17:24):
Yeah.
That some people justaren't depressed.
depression. Which like, it'salways weird to remember that
that happens?
Pen (17:38):
I...
Harvey (17:39):
Sounds fake.
Pen (17:40):
I need to meet some people like that. Just see what it's
like to live that because itdoes legit sound fake at this
point.
Harvey (17:46):
It does. You know, and I think, too, my one partner that
doesn't have autism, sometimesthe thing that becomes readily
apparent to me is howfrustrating for other people my
inability to understand things,if it's not explicitly pointed
out to me can be, and thatalways feels really bad because
(18:08):
I- like, to me, I never feellike I'm asking for much when I
just want things explicitlystated. And apparently, for some
people, that is veryfrustrating. And it's like, why?
Pen (18:19):
Yeah.
Atlas (18:20):
I like communication.
Pen (18:21):
Communication.
Communication is excellent. I'mso bias.
Atlas (18:26):
Communication majors be like.
Pen (18:30):
You'd think would you be better at talking, then. Or,
well, talking... less, or moreinterestingly... I'm dunking on
everyone who's ever been in mymajor.
Harvey (18:40):
That's okay. They kind of deserve it.
Pen (18:42):
Oh, yeah, I didn't like most of my classmates. Anyway.
We're not talking about that. Ialready talked about that and
one of us. But it's...
communication can be so - well,we actually just did an episode
on that, Harvey, how...
Harvey (18:58):
Yeah.
Pen (18:59):
...communication can be challenging,
Harvey (19:01):
Especially with the interaction of, like, I do not
read between the lines. Bothing.
I said have - nothing I sayreally has anything behind it
other than what I'm saying, anda lot of people just don't
assume that that's true.
Pen (19:14):
Yeah, it's...
typical thing withcommunication for neurotypical
people, which is, like, kind ofwack.
Harvey (19:28):
Why would you do that?
That sounds so inefficient.
Pen (19:32):
You know, the weird thing about neurotypical people? They
don't think about efficiency intheir own lives very much. Or
like efficiency incommunication. I've always
thought that was weird, and thatthey should just do it, but I
haven't been able to convinceanybody yet. In fact, they
usually get pretty mad at me.
Harvey (19:52):
Pourin' one out for you, homie.
Pen (19:53):
Thanks. Wish they'd be just... better at having brains.
But, well... we can't all becool.
Harvey (20:00):
If you need more time, I'm su Atlas, are there any
immediate negatives that come tomind? We're just kind of going
around the table.
Atlas (20:04):
Hmm...
Pen (20:04):
It's a rectangle table.
Harvey (20:06):
Triangle.
Atlas (20:07):
I was gonna say, it's more of a triangle.
Harvey (20:08):
We're shaped in a triangle.
Atlas (20:10):
Yeah. We're all kind of sitting.
Harvey (20:11):
Angle. Three of them.
I'll stop talking now.
Pen (20:17):
Thank you so much, Harvey.
Atlas (20:20):
I'm trying to think.
Pen (20:22):
Oh, I can always say something.
Atlas (20:24):
You guys say some more things, and let me think in my
brain.
Pen (20:27):
It's - I actually just last night had a thing with
communicating with mygirlfriend, which was like, I
was explaining that somethingthat she had, uh... we were
playing Magic, which, yeah, Iknow.
Harvey (20:41):
Ha, nerd.
Pen (20:42):
Thank you.
Harvey (20:43):
Loser.
Pen (20:44):
Yeah.
Harvey (20:44):
I love you.
Pen (20:45):
You should bully me for being into Magic the Gathering.
Everyone who plays Magic theGathering deserves to be
bullied.
My younger siblings are intoMagic the Gathering.
I'm really sorry, but they'regeeks.
Atlas (20:53):
Yeah, I know.
Pen (20:58):
And, uh, we were talking about one of the cards that she
had in her deck, which is a petcard of mine. And she said that
it was pretty good, which to me,pretty good is, like, below
good, and feels like a - like adisagreement that's just couched
in, like not activelydisagreeing. And so there was a
(21:20):
bit of me that just like, kindof felt rejected from that. Wow,
I wonder what it's like to nothave, like, ADHD and RSD and
things and listen to me saythat, because it must sound
absolutely bonkers; like bananaswild.
Harvey (21:35):
And see, like, removed from the situation, it sounds a
little wild, but also beingsomeone who experiences RSD, I
understand.
Pen (21:42):
And it wasn't an extreme thing, because I'm - I was gonna
say an adult, but adults aren'tactually that good at
communication.
Harvey (21:48):
No, we're terrible at it.
Pen (21:49):
Or emotional regulation.
Atlas (21:50):
No one is good at anything inherently.
Pen (21:53):
And that's very, very true.
Harvey (21:54):
That's some wisdom, dude,
Atlas (21:55):
I-
Pen (21:56):
It is.
Atlas (21:57):
...just said that, not even thinking.
Pen (22:00):
Well, you just have a good brain.
And, you know, because Imake an effort to be good at
Harvey (22:01):
It's because you're smart. You're smart and
handsome.
Atlas (22:04):
Aw, you're so sweet.
understanding my own emotionsand communicating them well, to
all people, but especially thosewho I care about. I talked to
her about it. I was like, hey,so I figured out that that is
what I was feeling, and we had alittle bit of a back and forth
where I realized, like, we werejust hitting a bit of a wall
where what I wanted was to knowif that was what she meant when
(22:25):
she said pretty good, and whatshe was doing was explaining,
like, that she had not intendedto make me feel rejected, which
was just not at all, like... wewere not meeting each other on
that.
Harvey (22:44):
No.
Atlas (22:45):
We were talking about two different things. And that's
something that happens, like,not uncommonly.
Harvey (22:52):
Happens to me with my relationships, too.
Pen (22:55):
The communication, like- it can be so specific, and that can
be... and then when when thingsget frustrating and difficult to
understand, particularly whenyou are neurodivergent as in
autism or ADHD, your brain is onthe one track and getting it off
of that track, oh, it's sodifficult to do.
Atlas (23:16):
Why would your brain think anything else?
Harvey (23:19):
This is what we've always thought this is the
entire time.
Atlas (23:22):
This is how we do things.
Pen (23:23):
This is how we process information. Why would it
change?
Atlas (23:25):
Yeah. Change. Change?
Change.
Pen (23:28):
I'm sorry, change? That's scary and bad. And like hitting
that wall...
Harvey (23:35):
Yeah.
Pen (23:36):
...in any respect can be so challenging to work through. And
the-
Harvey (23:41):
Especially if you start taking it personally.
Pen (23:43):
Yes. And the thing about relationships is you're always
going to hit a wall ofcommunication at one point or
another.
Atlas (23:48):
Especially when you can't communicate.
Pen (23:50):
Yep.
Atlas (23:52):
Yeah, like I've... I get overwhelmed sometimes, like, in
stores and things, like today.
Harvey (24:00):
You did earlier today.
Atlas (24:00):
Yeah.
Pen (24:02):
Stores suck.
Atlas (24:02):
Yeah.
We went to Walmart. Yeah.
Oh, my God, mistake, but Ineeded groceries and things.
Harvey (24:07):
So did I.
Atlas (24:08):
It was a necessary battle. But sometimes talking is
hard. And having a partner- thisis not Harvey. Harvey
understands. Having a partner-
Harvey (24:20):
Because I'm autistic.
Atlas (24:21):
Having a partner who doesn't understand nonverbal is
hard.
Pen (24:27):
Oh, that sounds miserable.
Atlas (24:28):
Yeah. Cuz talk that you're not mad at them.
Pen (24:31):
Ooh...
Harvey (24:32):
Your ex-partner was mentally ill, but didn't have
autism or ADHD.
Atlas (24:38):
Yeah. So there was a lot of disconnect there between,
Pen (24:39):
Yeah.
Atlas (24:41):
Just to talk.
like, how I would behave incertain things, and she would
Which, then, makes it worsebecause you're - you're not only
not get it. Like, yeah. And it'sjust hard because it's like, I'm
not mad at you, and I can'texplain that. I'm not mad at
you, because it's very hard todo things right now.
stressed from the stress, butyou're also stressed because of
(25:12):
communication things, which isvery difficult.
Pen (25:15):
It's a - that is a vicious, vicious circle.
Atlas (25:17):
Yep.
Harvey (25:18):
Which that's one of the nice things about us being
neurodivergent in such a similarway, because I just kind of
implicitly understand goingnonverbal after being in a
store. Hate stores.
Pen (25:28):
Stores are awful.
Atlas (25:29):
Thumbs down on stores, except for Aldi. Aldi gets a
smooch.
Pen (25:33):
Aldi is - Aldi is better.
Atlas (25:35):
Not best, but better.
No store is best.
Pen (25:37):
No store is best.
Harvey (25:37):
Thank God.
Pen (25:37):
Oh, God, I actually just relaxed. My shoulders actually
...if we want to interactwith other people, because we
There is no good store.
Leave me alone! If there - if Ijust untensed a little.
was the only one there and therewere no lights, I would be...
Atlas (25:45):
And just a little bit of music.
(26:05):
have to explain ourselves.
See, so masking episode. Lastone.
Good episode.
Harvey & Pen (26:24):
Thank you!
Pen (26:27):
And that's really, really hard to do. It's something that
also, you know, comes up notjust in interacting with
society, but also interactingwith other people, you know,
that you might be in arelationship with. Having to be
very conscious of, you know, in,like - in the example that I
(26:47):
gave about my girlfriend and Ilast night, if I had not been
aware of, like, why it was thatI was feeling rejected, I can
tell you, before I was good atrecognizing that, it was just
the feeling of rejection, and noreal way of like, communicating
it or anything, Like, I had todo that - that growth and that,
like, introspection.
Harvey (27:08):
LOL.
Atlas (27:09):
Haha. Ha.
Pen (27:09):
Funny to learn that and be able to communicate it, because
otherwise you just hit a wallreally fast. And,
Atlas (27:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (27:17):
It's not good for anybody.
Pen (27:19):
And it can be... things can go kind of bad. Like there's -
it can be difficult to learnthat, I think it's also pretty
necessary, because otherwise,things can devolve, and people
can, intentionally or not, berather selfish with their
emotions, and ask a lot. Andsometimes you're predisposed to
(27:41):
being very giving with things,especially if you are also
neurodivergent. And so youunderstand why someone would be
having a hard time communicatingthese things. And so you think,
Well, I mean, I understand, Iget it, so it's not that big of
a deal, right? Wrong.
Atlas (27:55):
Wrong.
Harvey (27:56):
Wrong, and then you shove it down, and then yeah,
like, I don't... I got into anargument with one of my
partners, not this one.
Atlas (28:05):
Not me.
Harvey (28:05):
Not you... the other night, kind of about that sort
of selfish emotions piece. And Ifound myself having that really
difficult time reconciling like,I understand where you're coming
from, and you do have anunquestionable right to your
feelings. And also, I am soangry that this is the way that
you're feeling about something.
(28:26):
Which has been weird for us tonavigate.
Atlas (28:37):
Yeah, we're literally, like, the spider man emoji or -
emoji. Meme where they're allpointing at each other.
Harvey (28:44):
Thank God.
Atlas (28:46):
It's, like, no, you. I'm take care of you know, you can't
bite me. Nope.
This is a family friendlypodcast, Harvey.
Harvey (28:55):
Not hard. Just a li'l...
just a li'l ni- eat him likecorn on cob. A li'l
Pen (29:02):
Add that to the bits where if you're not neurodivergent
must be like, sorry what did-Biting?
Bite?
Atlas (29:09):
What?
Pen (29:10):
Anyway. I refuse to explain myself.
Atlas (29:14):
And you don't have to.
Harvey (29:14):
Nor should you.
Pen (29:17):
I am an enigma. Though, speaking of explaining yourself
to your partner...
Atlas (29:20):
Oh, God.
Pen (29:23):
It is really important to recognize, I think, like, yes,
you get to just feel things andthat's always true. And yes,
sometimes your feelings areunreasonable. Like sometimes the
way that you feel aboutsomething just isn't gonna be
like, sometimes it is just kindof selfish. And that's - I say
(29:44):
that's okay, and what I mean bythat is like, you can't control
whether or not you feel.
Harvey (29:48):
The thing that I always say is you can't control your
feelings, but you can controlwhat you do with them.
Pen (29:53):
Exactly. I think that the healthiest thing to do is to
accept your feelings for justbeing what they are.
Legitimately, you can't doanything else, because if you
try to do something else, you'llend up guilting yourself and
trying to just suppress theemotions, which, let me tell
you, does not make them go away.
Atlas (30:15):
Something I've learned is you can feel things, and they
don't have to be okay sometimes.
They're allowed to be yours, andyou can feel them.
Pen (30:26):
Yeah.
Harvey (30:27):
And sometimes it is worthwhile to process your
emotions away from the people.
Atlas (30:31):
Mm-hmm.
Pen (30:31):
Yes.
Atlas (30:32):
Yeah. Like, last night, we were talking about the
concert that neither of us canreally go to.
Yeah.
And I was like, damn, I'm sad.
But I'm not sad at Harvey. I'mjust sad that I can't go to the
concert.
Pen (30:47):
It's...
Harvey (30:48):
And we, like, kind of just didn't talk about it,
because there wasn't reallyanything that would come from
talking about it.
Atlas (30:52):
We were just like like, oh, man, that sucks. Shoot.
Pen (30:55):
Mm-hmm.
Harvey (30:55):
Okay, I'm gonna drive home now.
Pen (30:56):
And sometimes, like - sometimes that's it. And
sometimes, like... sometimes youare feeling something, or
someone else might be feelingsomething that's, like, more
challenging or difficult.
Harvey (31:10):
Complicated.
Pen (31:11):
And what it comes down to is, like, maybe, you can inform
Atlas (31:11):
Complications.
your partner that this is howyou're feeling, and not make it
their problem, though.
Yeah.
Pen (31:25):
Sometimes you can feel a thing, and I'm trying not to be
specific here, because I haveexamples in mind, but they
aren't really mine to talkabout.
Atlas (31:32):
You can communicate...
Harvey (31:33):
Do you have an example with us?
Pen (31:36):
Not with you and Atlas.
But...
Harvey (31:39):
I mean you and I.
Pen (31:40):
You and- oh! You and I.
Okay.
Harvey (31:42):
Because we can lay that out.
Pen (31:44):
Oh, God, I don't know.
Harvey (31:46):
That's okay. We don't have to get stuck thinking about
an example.
Pen (31:49):
But yeah, it's - sometimes you feel a thing, and it is
selfish. And...
Harvey (31:56):
And that's okay.
Pen (31:56):
...it can be good to tell your partner like, hey, I am
feeling this thing, especiallyif it's very intense.
Harvey (32:00):
Or even - just, you don't even have to be specific
sometimes. Just like, I am notfeeling well.
Pen (32:05):
But sometimes it is, like, if you're feeling one thing very
intensely, can be good toexplain that to the person who
it's related to, because that'sgoing to potentially impact your
communication with them.
Harvey (32:17):
And that was - that was kind of relevant to the
conversation I had with mypartner last night where I was
like... I am feeling angry, youdidn't make me angry. That is
the way I am responding to thesituation. That's not yours to
manage.
Pen (32:30):
And that can be - that can be very good and healthy to be
like, this is what I'm feeling.
I am going to manage itelsewhere and talk to other
people about it, because this isnot your thing to help me
process.
Atlas (32:43):
It can also be really hard to accept that.
Pen (32:45):
Yes.
Atlas (32:46):
Because it's like, oh, but I want to help. [Crosstalk]
Pen (32:51):
The other side of it is like, what if I fixed everything
in the world? All for you? Whatif I just made everything okay?
Atlas (32:58):
Yeah, I can do that.
Yeah.
Harvey (33:00):
That - that is both reasonable and possible to
achieve.
Atlas (33:04):
Yep.
Pen (33:04):
And it is - it's... being emotionally drained, when all
you want is to give more. And itseems like a good thing that you
should give more, especiallylike, in our society, that kind
of thing is also rewarded, atleast conceptually, is like,
(33:25):
yes, give and be selfless, anddo the work. Help other people!
Just keep helping! Help, help!And don't make it about
yourself. Ever!
Harvey (33:33):
Don't you dare!
Atlas (33:34):
It can't be about you actually.
Harvey (33:35):
Ever.
Atlas (33:35):
Nope.
Harvey (33:36):
You don't get to have feelings.
Pen (33:38):
We all have religious trauma.
Harvey (33:42):
Converted to a whole different Judeo-Christian
religion about it.
Pen (33:46):
That's - it's really funny.
Atlas (33:48):
And I just said no.
Pen (33:51):
And - so it's... all you want to do is give, but the
healthiest possible thing thatyou can do...
Harvey (33:59):
Is to stop giving.
Atlas (34:01):
...is to draw a boundary.
Harvey (34:03):
And boundary setting is so hard when you're
neurodivergent. Because goodGod, number one, you've been
told to shove down everythingyou feel for your entire life.
Number two, the people you careabout legitimately need help
just as much as you do.
Pen (34:17):
Yeah. And so it can feel so selfish and so awful to be like,
this one can't be mine. I can'thelp. Whether that's I can't
help right now, or sometimes. Ijust can't help with this one.
And especially if your partneris not yet at that point...
Atlas (34:37):
Yep.
Harvey (34:38):
Of emotional maturity.
Pen (34:39):
...when you are at different points in the
emotional maturity and thegrowth, that can be so
challenging.
Atlas (34:46):
Because it sounds like you're admitting defeat
Pen (34:49):
It - and it can feel like, uh, they might feel like you're
rejecting them by saying no, I'mnot going to help you with this.
And it's like, "Oh, so you hateme? I'm not enough? You don't
love me?"
Atlas (35:02):
Yep.
Pen (35:02):
And it's like...
Harvey (35:03):
It's like, no, it's because I love you that I am
drawing this boundary, becausetrying to help you with this
will help and neither of us
Pen (35:09):
It will just make things worse.
Atlas (35:10):
Make things worse. Make things bad.
Pen (35:12):
And it's... it can be very, very difficult to... like this
is - like you and Harvey both,I'm talking to Atlas, do that
thing of, like, wanting to helpand always help. It can be very,
very difficult when your partnerdoes not have that instinct.
Atlas (35:30):
Yeah.
Pen (35:30):
And so they don't understand, like, just the
inherent emotional drain thatcomes from having a partner in
the first place, because that'sjust a part of how we all
express our love.
Atlas (35:43):
Yep.
Pen (35:44):
And so trying to say like, I love you, one of the things
that comes with me loving you,is wanting to just give and give
and help. And I need to not dothat all the time for my health,
which then is also about ourrelationship's health.
Atlas (35:58):
Mm-hmm.
Harvey (35:59):
Yep.
Pen (35:59):
And if that is not supported, then... I'm having a
hard time drawing this boundaryin the first place, because
everything in me is screaming tocontinue to be... like, try and
be selfless in this way. And sothen if your partner doesn't
understand it, or like... orresponds by calling you selfish,
or feeling, like, rejected inthat, or...
Atlas (36:21):
Just asking you to do more.
Harvey (36:22):
It is so painful.
Pen (36:23):
It's just like, oh, no. Or even if it's like, they just
don't understand why it would bedraining, or that you're giving
more because it seems...
Atlas (36:33):
Or, like, they get sad.
Pen (36:34):
Or they get sad, or maybe, because, hey, this is part of a
love language thing. It makesall of us feel good to do these
things. And when that goesunrecognized, too not that we do
it for thanks. That's not how alove language works. But when
it's not recognized that like,hey, I'm putting a lot of energy
into this, and effort, and thatmeans that I have put energy and
(36:55):
effort into a thing, and so Ihave less of it.
Atlas (36:58):
Yeah.
Harvey (36:59):
And I need you to recognize that I have less of
it.
Pen (37:01):
I have less of it, because I wanted to do this thing for
you, because I love you, and Ineed you to know what that
means.
Yep.
Harvey (37:07):
And you know, on balance, At, like... I think,
because we both have thetendency to give and give and
give, we tend to balance eachother out pretty well.
Atlas (37:14):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:14):
But I will say, all things considered, it's really
hard for you to get to a placewhere I let you help me.
Atlas (37:21):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:22):
I'm... like, you're a little bit more receptive to me
helping you. I am extremelystubborn.
Atlas (37:27):
Yes, I know. And I love you.
Harvey (37:30):
I love you, too. And you are also... you are - I wouldn't
call you forceful.
Atlas (37:36):
No.
Harvey (37:36):
You are insistent.
Atlas (37:37):
Yes.
Which...
Gently, gently insistent ofbeing like, Hey, let me do this,
please.
Harvey (37:44):
I'm holding you. You're not telling me no, unless you
don't want to be touched. AndI'm like, well...
Pen (37:50):
Which is...
Atlas (37:50):
I am going to clean your kitchen.
Harvey (37:52):
Which he just did.
Atlas (37:53):
Yeah, I did. I did that.
Harvey (37:55):
I did not ask.
Atlas (37:56):
And I did it. And I was like, I'm going to help, and
that's how it's going to be!
Harvey (38:01):
I was literally putting clothes away in my room, and I
pop back into the kitchen tothrow a frozen pizza into the
oven, and I hear him in thekitchen. And I'm like, "What are
you doing?"
Atlas (38:08):
And I'm like, "Nothing."
Harvey (38:10):
So I walk in there and he's cleaning my entire kitchen,
and like...
Atlas (38:13):
I literally had the, like, Lysol in my hand and a
paper towel on the counter. AndI look at you and I'm like,
you've caught me.
Harvey (38:23):
Just like this - this like shh eating grin. Like...
like, thanks. And genuinely,like, it was extremely sweet of
you. And I think this sort ofstarts to segue into the ways in
which neurodivergence is nice ina relationship.
Pen (38:37):
We already talked a little bit on like, being able to
understand each other.
Atlas (38:42):
Oh, God.
Harvey (38:43):
The fact - like, I'm glad that I can give you a space
where you do not have to explainto me that sometimes you're just
nonverbal after being in apublic place.
Pen (38:50):
It's so nice. And I know that you're not upset with me
because you know I'm not mad atyou.
Harvey (38:55):
My God, of course I'm not upset. I'm sorry stores are
awful.
Atlas (38:58):
Yeah.
Pen (39:00):
And there is like, going back to the depression example,
if you're in relationship withsomeone who doesn't have
depression, they can offer yousupport and that's great. And
also, I have seen - I've readarticles about it, I have not
experienced this myself.
Everyone I love is depressed.
(39:21):
But, that it can be verydifficult to try and explain
like, hey, no, I promise I'm not- I just can't. I can't. And
having that, like,misunderstanding and
miscommunication can be so bad,that having people who are like,
no, yeah, of course. What - youdon't have to - you don't have
to justify yourself to me atall.
Harvey (39:42):
Yes, of course. I'll clean your kitchen for you. I
know you've been going throughit.
Atlas (39:45):
Also, and this is just a thing that I tell you, I have
literally seen worse. Like,you... so my uncle has
depression, and at the death ofmy grandpa, we - my mom and I
cleaned that entire condo and itwas very bad. So I've literally
(40:06):
seen worse, so much worse. Andit is not your fault, and I can
help because I don't - I don'thave depression, I probably
experience.
Harvey (40:19):
Wait, you don't?
Atlas (40:20):
I don't think so.
Harvey (40:21):
Huh. How about that.
Atlas (40:23):
Yeah.
Harvey (40:24):
I just kind of assume that all of my loved ones have
depression.
Pen (40:28):
If you or a loved one have experienced-
Harvey (40:29):
You may be entitled to financial compensation.
Atlas (40:32):
I definitely experience, probably, depression - bluh -
depressive episodes, but I donot think that I have depression
all the time.
Harvey (40:43):
I cannot imagine that - this contextualizes why - why
you were so quiet when I wastalking about being chronically
suicidal earlier. Because youwere like, huh?!
Atlas (40:53):
No, I mean, I understand it.
Harvey (40:55):
But like, it's not something you've ever
experienced. So it's just like -well, not like - I'm not saying
you've never felt suicidal, butlike, chronic suicidality, I'm
assuming it's not somethingyou've experienced,
Atlas (41:04):
No, but I - I'm familiar with the concept enough to be
like, okay. That makes sense.
Pen (41:09):
Which is, you know, that's - that's kind of another piece
of it, I think, because I haveexperienced, I think, both sides
of - of this. When I wasyounger, I was, like... I've
talked about this a little bit,that like, my ADHD influences
every other part of myneurodivergence. The only one
(41:30):
that might be a little bit moreseparate is my social anxiety,
but like, the depression, I havedepressive episodes now, and
that is related to my ADHD.
Atlas (41:40):
Yeah, I think that's pretty much very similar to what
I get.
Pen (41:44):
Which, hey, learning that that was a thing, it was
helpful. But when I was younger,I'm sure that the ADHD and
depression were still related.
The depression was absolutely aproblem on its own. It may as
well have just been like, I haveADHD that contributes to
depression, and also majordepressive disorder.
Atlas (42:02):
I think I probably definitely had depression in
high school. I was...
Pen (42:06):
High school sucks.
Atlas (42:07):
High school; okay, uh, private Christian high school
without a diagnosis of anything.
Pen (42:13):
Oh, no!
Atlas (42:13):
Yeah. My.. in elementary school, my teachers were like,
"Hey, get this one checked out,maybe," and my mom said, no.
Pen (42:21):
Oopsies!
Atlas (42:23):
And so I didn't know that, and I figured out that I,
through talking with mytherapist, that I definitely
have ADHD, and that's changedthings.
Pen (42:32):
Yeah. Doesn't it just open all the door?
Atlas (42:36):
It just explains so much.
Pen (42:38):
In retrospect, it's just like, so that's what that... oh.
Atlas (42:42):
Yeah. And I think just being aware of that has helped
so much of being like, oh, okay,so yeah.
Harvey (42:52):
Same thing with my autism. You know what, it was
really funny, I sort of realizedwhen I was dating my first
partner, Chris...
Atlas (43:01):
Love Chris.
Harvey (43:01):
Love him so much - that I was - I realized that I was
autistic, probably when I wasdating him. Like, I kind of had
an inkling when I was - before Imet him, but I was definitely
more unsure about it. Then I methim. I was like, shoot, I think
I'm autistic. And he's like,yeah. Yeah, you are.
Pen (43:19):
It's what it's like when you're the other person is like,
"Did you not know that?"
Atlas (43:24):
You... you didn't know?
Harvey (43:25):
We had that moment, too where you were like, "Yeah,
sometimes I wonder if I'mautistic." And I'm like, wait,
you're not diagnosed?
Pen (43:31):
And I have seen your...
your autism journey, Harvey,from the outside.
Harvey (43:38):
Like - like your gender journey? Inside joke about one
of the Pen's past therapists.
Pen (43:44):
She was trying her best, but she missed the mark. And...
but yeah, so like, understandingeach other, being able to
support each other, being ableto be on the outside, like,
yeah, no, what you'reexperiencing is, like... you
know, baseline what you'reexperiencing is valid, and I
love you and I support you, andalso yeah, you're neurodiverse!
Harvey (44:04):
Was this ever a question?
Pen (44:05):
Honey, do you not know that? Like, having someone who
can be the objective outsider,who still cares for you, and
also just has these fundamentalunderstandings of what it's like
to exist in...
Atlas (44:16):
Super validating.
Pen (44:17):
...in, like, a brain, like [inaudible] oh, oh God.
Atlas (44:21):
I'm a little bit of both your brains.
Harvey (44:22):
You had your first panic attack with me.
Atlas (44:25):
Yes.
Harvey (44:27):
But of all the people that have a panic attack with.
Pen (44:29):
Oh, Harvey's a great person have a panic attack with.
Harvey (44:31):
I spent a good chunk of that time telling you stories
about cells. I startedexplaining to him the
psychological mechanisms behinda panic attack. And it did
genuinely help, it seemed.
Pen (44:42):
I love it when Harvey does that!
Atlas (44:44):
It's really good!
Harvey (44:45):
You benefited from understanding what your body was
doing.
Atlas (44:47):
Yeah, the panic attack was an hour long.
Harvey (44:50):
It was a really long one.
Pen (44:51):
Oh, God, that's so... oh, yikesies.
Atlas (44:53):
Yeah, lots of literally shivering. Like, that's how bad
it was. I never experienced thatbefore, and Harvey said it was
very bad.
Harvey (45:02):
It was genuinely like a super bad panic attack.
Pen (45:05):
Oh, wow, this is—
Harvey (45:07):
Worse than anything I've ever experienced. I was sitting
there like, Whoa! Yeah, so hey,another benefit...
Pen (45:15):
Longtime listeners of Beyond Introspection podcast
might understand when Harveysays that an anxiety or panic
attack is bad...
Atlas (45:21):
It's bad.
Yeah.
It is not fun.
Harvey (45:26):
And no, but that, and you know that's the—that's,
again with theexperiential—sometimes it's the
experiential understanding too,that like, Oh, this is the first
time you're going through this.
I've done this so many times Iknow what's going on and I know
that I can help you.
Atlas (45:39):
Yeah.
Pen (45:40):
And that this is like how I can...
Atlas (45:41):
Yeah. Because I think if I was—honestly if I was by
myself or with someone else, itwould have been so much worse.
Harvey (45:51):
Yeah.
Pen (45:52):
Mhm.
Yeah, this is, this is a verygood thing that like
understanding each other andhaving, again, like that
experiential knowledge is so soso helpful. Because being
neurodivergent is an experience.
It's one that we're all justgoing to have, for all of it the
whole time.
Atlas (46:08):
Isn't it kind of just nutty that there are people who
don't experience thedisabilities in their brain?
Pen (46:14):
Nutty is—I love the word nutty for it.
Harvey (46:16):
That's a good one.
Pen (46:18):
And also, yeah, I straight up don't get... like, what's it
like?
Harvey (46:25):
To not have disabilities in your brain?
Atlas (46:27):
Yeah. Where the disabilities are stored.
Harvey (46:29):
That's where the disabilities are stored.
Pen (46:31):
Dallas said several times yesterday, I like it a lot
uh, we contain multitudes.
Harvey & Atlas (46:36):
Yes!
Atlas (46:37):
Yep.
Harvey (46:37):
I love Dallas so much.
Atlas (46:39):
God, Dallas is amazing.
Pen (46:40):
Dallas is great.
Atlas (46:42):
He's my boss, kind of.
Pen (46:44):
That's fun.
Atlas (46:44):
Yeah.
Harvey (46:45):
He's going to be my roommate. And he's your friend.
Pen (46:49):
Yeah, we're gonna listen to more podcast stuff together.
Atlas (46:53):
Shout out to Dallas. If you're listening, we all love
you.
Pen (46:55):
Does Dallas know that this podcast exists?
Harvey (46:57):
I have no idea.
Atlas (46:59):
We should tell him.
Harvey (46:59):
We should.
Atlas (47:01):
Hey Dallas, you should listen to this episode at this
time, specifically.
Pen (47:05):
And then like an out of context clip. I would be happy
to make and like [beep sound].
And then text back like, what isthis from? Were you guys just
sitting there talking about me?
Atlas (47:14):
Yes. That is actually what's happening.
Pen (47:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (47:18):
More or less. Why don't we all share at least one more
nice thing.
Pen (47:23):
Yes.
Harvey (47:23):
About neurodivergence and relationships.
Pen (47:25):
[Gasp]
Harvey (47:26):
Yes. That was so cute.
Go on.
Atlas (47:29):
That was adorable.
Pen (47:30):
I got very excited because—and this is actually
directly related to what itis—my girlfriend and I both have
ADHD. And there's—
Harvey (47:36):
I love it when you say your girlfriend. Go on.
Atlas (47:38):
It's so good.
Pen (47:39):
I like saying my girlfriend. I'm queer. I'm
bisexual.
Atlas (47:42):
Whoa!
Pen (47:43):
Isn't that so cool of me?
Harvey (47:44):
So poggers.
Atlas (47:45):
Right? You and Harvey—
Harvey (47:46):
Bisexual. I don't know what you are.
Atlas (47:48):
I'm just kind of.
Harvey (47:50):
Yeah, you did identify as a lesbian until you ended up
down bad for me.
Atlas (47:53):
Yep. And that's funny because I still have the lesbian
flag hanging up in my dorm room.
Pen (47:57):
Sometimes there's just an asterisk.
Atlas (47:59):
I really want to get both the woman loving—Well, I already
have the lesbian or woman lovingwoman flag. I really want to get
the man loving man flag—
Harvey (48:07):
The toothpaste flag.
Atlas (48:09):
Crest sponsored flag.
Harvey (48:12):
Have them both in your apartment.
Atlas (48:13):
I want to have them both and like the nonbinary flag
right in between them. And Ijust want people to figure it
out on their own.
Pen (48:19):
This is fun. This is a fun art installation.
Atlas (48:21):
I like women in the gay way and I like men, asterisk, in
the gay way.
Pen (48:26):
Yeah.
Atlas (48:26):
So...
Pen (48:27):
And if you don't understand what that means, um...
Harvey (48:29):
Sorry!
Pen (48:32):
Sorry.
Atlas (48:33):
I like people. It always has to be gay.
Pen (48:35):
Yes, that's what it's like when you're nonbinary.
Harvey (48:38):
Yeah.
Pen (48:41):
The temptation there, by the way, to be like, if you
don't understand what that'slike, do I have the terminology
list for you?
Harvey (48:50):
Introducing...!
Atlas (48:52):
Well also that's kind of fun about...me and Harvey also
experience gender in a verysimilar way as well.
Harvey (48:57):
Yeah. Which is unrelated—Well. Well, I was
about to say it's totallyunrelated to neurodivergence but
it's totally related.
Atlas (49:03):
Most autistic—well, I shouldn't say most. A lot of
autistic people have issues withgender.
Harvey (49:08):
The...the science does point to a disproportionate
peop—uh, A disproportionateamount of autistic people are
also trans.
Pen (49:18):
I think we've talked about this before.
Harvey (49:19):
I believe in the autism episode.
Pen (49:21):
Yeah. On like, how, you know, having more difficulty
perceiving social constructswhen gender is one of those.
It's fake. Also, y'all arelactose intolerant, huh?
Atlas (49:31):
No.
Pen (49:33):
You're not?
Atlas (49:33):
No.
Pen (49:34):
You may be the first...one a very few autistic people I've
met who is not lactoseintolerant.
Atlas (49:38):
Not lactose intolerant.
Pen (49:39):
Wow.
Atlas (49:40):
Crazy.
Harvey (49:41):
Lack toes and toddler ants.
Atlas (49:43):
Yeah, hon.
Harvey (49:44):
I'm so smart. Go on, you and your girlfriend—
Atlas (49:46):
I want to get—sorry.
Harvey (49:48):
No, what's up?
Atlas (49:48):
I want to get you the I can't drink milk shirt or I'll
die, whatever the—It's like aD.A.R.E. shirt but it's just
don't let me drink milk.
Harvey (49:57):
I will die.
Pen (49:59):
Look, I try to help with this, but it doesn't work.
Harvey just drinks the milk.
Atlas (50:04):
That's just lactose intolerant people.
Harvey (50:05):
No one can stop me, milk is delicious. So Pen, your
girlfriend.
Pen (50:08):
Yes, my girlfriend.
Atlas (50:09):
Your girlfriend.
Pen (50:10):
We both have ADHD, which is cool and fun. And that means
that obviously both of us gethyper fixations and get very
interested in things. And wealso infodump, and one of my
favorite things ever is when weget excited about each other
info dumping. And we're like, Iwant to talk about this. And
we're like, Yeah, do it! Like Iwill get super excited to like,
(50:31):
I like knowing things. It's uh,I have said for many years now I
am the best at Emily trivia. Shewill be talking about a thing,
and I'll be like, Oh, it's fromthis! It's this thing. You told
me this is what it is!
Harvey (50:40):
Emily trivia night.
Pen (50:43):
Because I like to say like, I paid attention! I know that
thing about you!
Atlas (50:46):
It's hard to pay attention sometimes. And if you
know that many things aboutanother person. Oh, my goodness.
Pen (50:51):
I just like to—I mean, I like to express like, Hey, I was
listening and paying attention.
And also I get excited when Iknow things. Which might not, it
might sound like a silly thing.
If you aren't, I don't know ifthat's an ADHD thing, or if it's
just a Pen thing, but I love toknow facts. And then she will
get like, super into me,explaining like video games that
(51:16):
I'm into or things like thatshe'll be like, yeah. Yeah, do
it! Just, just excited becauseI'm excited. And having that
understanding of like, you knowwhy we're both so excited or
that we're just gonna go offabout this. Like, info dumping
to neurotypical people is such aweird...It can be very strange.
Atlas (51:36):
Harvey likes when I talk about artistic—
Harvey (51:39):
And plants.
Atlas (51:40):
Oh my god, I love plants.
Harvey (51:42):
I love setting him loose in a plant area.
Atlas (51:46):
There were so many plants in the back alley market and you
just saw me get very excited.
Harvey (51:50):
It was so sweet.
Atlas (51:51):
And vintage, vintage glass. I get so excited about
that stuff.
Harvey (51:56):
My heart almost broke when it turned out that that one
piece you wanted didn't—theydidn't accept cash and there was
like, wait, I have singles!
Atlas (52:05):
And I put a plant in that. The plant clipping that I
got, in the glass. It's both ofmy favorite things.
Harvey (52:13):
That's lovely.
Pen (52:14):
I remember you were you were you were going off about
Atlas (52:17):
The Pyrex?
the—
Pen (52:19):
Yeah the pyrex, and I looked at you and said, Yeah,
you're Harvey's type. If youguys weren't already dating and
I met you I would go home and belike Harvey I have met. I've met
the boy of your dreams.
Harvey (52:29):
[sing-song] Tell me that the man of my dreams. Anyway,
this is just a really innocuousone. But one of my favorite
things about beingneurodivergent and dating
another neurodivergent person.
Mutual stimming.
Atlas (52:44):
Oh my god.
Pen (52:45):
Yes!
Harvey (52:45):
I like, yeah, you told me that I couldn't bite you on
the podcast, but you will justlet me chew on your fingers.
Pen (52:51):
Sometimes that's just what it is.
Atlas (52:53):
Yeah, and I really like when you lay on top of me.
Harvey (52:59):
Yep.
Atlas (53:00):
Just pressure.
Harvey (53:01):
We both like being rocked back and forth.
Atlas (53:03):
Oh my god. Yes.
Pen (53:04):
Vestibular stimming...
Atlas (53:06):
I think that's why I like roller coasters so much.
Pen (53:09):
Dope.
Harvey (53:10):
Can't relate, I hate roller coasters.
Pen (53:12):
Also, stimulation go fast.
Atlas (53:15):
Uh huh.
Harvey (53:15):
I do like to go fast.
Atlas (53:17):
Through air—
Pen (53:17):
Fast, quick.
Harvey (53:18):
I really wish there was someone, like, I miss being a
child. And like when I was akid, my dad used to just chuck
me across a room onto like a bedor a couch. I wish someone was
strong enough to just throw meat something.
Atlas (53:30):
My dad would take me and my siblings by the arms and just
spin us around. Like, like afucking windmill.
Harvey (53:37):
My dad also used to grab me by the ankles and just dangle
me upside down.
Atlas (53:41):
Oh, yeah.
Harvey (53:41):
And I loved that when I was a kid.
Atlas (53:44):
Playgrounds?
Harvey (53:45):
Oh my god. Atlas. What's the...what's one more nice thing
for you about datingneurodivergent people? I suppose
neurodivergent person?
Atlas (53:54):
Yeah.
Pen (53:56):
Neurodivergent Harvey.
Harvey (53:57):
Tell me nice thing—No.
Atlas (54:00):
What's something nice about dating Harvey?
Pen (54:03):
There's just so many things.
Atlas (54:04):
So many things.
Harvey (54:05):
Oh, y'all are sweet.
Atlas (54:07):
I'm trying to think of something.
Pen (54:09):
We're just accurate, Harvey. I like to know facts.
Harvey (54:11):
I'm going to bite you.
Pen (54:13):
You can try. Also, I mean, yeah, sure.
Atlas (54:16):
Did we already talked about inherent understanding?
Without explanation?
Pen (54:22):
Yes, several times, but that doesn't mean you can't say
it again.
Harvey (54:24):
Yeah.
Atlas (54:25):
That's kind of...
Harvey (54:26):
Is that like the big one for you?
Atlas (54:27):
Yeah, that's a big one.
Just the understanding. Like,sometimes you just don't have to
explain things and that's nice.
I'm trying to think of somethingelse.
Harvey (54:36):
It's okay if you can't.
Pen (54:36):
It's alright.
Atlas (54:37):
I know. But I want to.
Harvey (54:38):
We can—Well, we this is usually the part in the episode
and we really should, where westart to wrap things up. So if
you want to, you can share thatas a last thought while we go
around. But Pen, do you have anyclosing thoughts about dating
while neurodivergent?
Pen (54:52):
Um, it is something that can be—it is something that can
be so personal. It's somethingthat can be great and awesome,
because you're able to supporteach other in unique ways. And
it's something that can be soincredibly challenging because
you cannot support each other insome unique ways.
And it is something that I thinkin order to be, in order for any
(55:15):
relationship to be successful,you have to put thought into it.
And you have to really try toopen up and communicate and
understand yourself better inorder to understand the other
person better. And I think thatthat is particularly important
with neurodivergence, becauseyour emotional growth and
ability to understand yourselfwill directly correlate to the
(55:36):
success and health of yourrelationships, romantic,
platonic, familial, and just allof them.
Harvey (55:43):
Yeah.
Pen (55:44):
And that is something I think to keep in mind because
the rewards are fantastic andcan be so amazing. And it is so
important to be cognizant thatyou should never stop putting
things in. And uh...we're allcool.
Atlas (56:05):
Yeah.
Harvey (56:06):
That's very true. The thought that I had is not family
friendly. So I'm not going toshare it. But in any case—
Atlas (56:16):
Tell us after.
Harvey (56:17):
Yeah, I will. But in any case, dating neurodivergent
people is so cool. And epic andpoggers and based.
Atlas (56:23):
Yeah, okay.
Harvey (56:25):
That's it.
Pen (56:25):
Really sorry to all of our, like, 40 plus year old listeners
who just heard that, and hadnothing.
Harvey (56:34):
And have to google like three new words.
Atlas (56:36):
So sarvey.
Pen (56:37):
So sarvey.
Atlas (56:39):
Um, yeah, dating neurodivergent people is nice.
And...
Harvey (56:48):
Thank you.
Atlas (56:48):
Kiss. Um, it has its unique challenges and has its
unique benefits, like any kindof relationship ever.
Harvey (56:58):
But honestly, the benefits for me outweigh the
costs. So much.
Atlas (57:02):
Yeah, it's, it is worth it.
Pen (57:04):
Having had to explain to people some of like, the basics
of what it is like to exist inmy brain with like, ADHD
presents such unique things thatbeing in a relationship with
someone who just gets it, and Idon't have to tell her like, so
this is a thing that justhappens with me. It's like, we
just know. And that is...
Atlas (57:27):
Relieving.
Pen (57:28):
Yes.
Harvey (57:29):
It so much less labor.
Pen (57:31):
To not feel othered in your own relationship.
Harvey (57:37):
To just feel like a part of it.
Atlas (57:38):
Yeah.
Pen (57:40):
That is a level of intimacy that is so—can be, can be just
so beautiful.
Atlas (57:46):
Yeah. Like you don't have to, like, put in so much labor
for basic intimacy stuff. Whichis nice.
Pen (57:52):
Yeah, that is, I think that's really good. That's a
very good way to put it to nothave to put in so much labor for
basic intimacy.
Harvey (57:58):
That is a wonderful way to close this out, I think. So,
stick around for just a few moremoments, we'll tell you a little
bit more about how this podcastis run.
Beyond introspection is anindependently run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atBYNDpodcast. Or you can email us
(58:20):
at beyonddot—that's D O T—podcast@gmail.com. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description. Gotfeedback for us? Feel free to
reach out on social media or viaemail. We'd love to hear from
everyone. Take care ofyourselves.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.