April 17, 2021 • 52 mins
In this episode, Pen & Harvey discuss death, dying, grief, and how we might think about it differently.
NOTE: This episode contains discussion about suicide, both our own experiences and more conceptually. If this may be triggering for you, listen with caution. Your mental health comes first.
Featuring: Being death positive isn't as depressing as it sounds; a'thunking about death; Mourning a stranger, mourning the living; Harvey's dead grandma & flower petals; My friend, the skeleton; Pen's communication theory corner, aka "Oops, no rituals!"
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pen (00:11):
Hello, and welcome to Beyond Introspection
about mental health,neurodivergence, and how it
impacts literally every aspectof our lives.
Harvey (00:18):
All of them.
Pen (00:19):
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:20):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:20):
And this week we're going to talk about death.
Harvey (00:23):
Yeah. And this was brought on by a conversation
that me and Pen had in my car. Iforget, we were in, like,
a--like, a suburb of Chicago.
Pen (00:34):
Yeah. Because I was--you were driving me to pick up a
book.
Harvey (00:36):
Right. I couldn't-
Pen (00:37):
And we got Girl Scout cookies.
Harvey (00:38):
That's the thing. I was trying to be like, okay, why
were we there? And the only partI could remember was Girl Scout
cookies, which was not why wewere there.
Pen (00:45):
No, but like, it could have been.
Harvey (00:47):
It really could have been. But yeah, we ended up
having, like, a long-ishdiscussion about death and
dying, and we were like, huh,this would be a good podcast
episode.
Pen (00:58):
Yeah. Which, I imagine is a surprise to no one who's
listened to this and knows mepersonally, that I was, like,
let's talk about death becausethat's sort of--that is
something that I do bring up.
Not in a goth way, though, like,not that that's a bad thing. It
is legitimately just, like, me.
Harvey (01:17):
You're at least a little bit goth.
Pen (01:18):
I am. It's just, that's not why I talk about death.
Harvey (01:20):
No, sure, sure.
Pen (01:21):
That's--that's organic.
Much like how we should betreating death, as a society.
As, like, a literal part of theprocess of our lives, and not as
something separate and scary.
Particularly in terms of, youknow, putting things back into
nature, and not embalming bodiesfor literally no reason, and
then tossing them into a casket,and then putting the casket into
(01:43):
a big plastic vault, and justtaking up space.
Harvey (01:47):
They're gonna decompose anyway. But we'll--we'll get
into that. It might surprisefolks a little--I know it
surprised you--when I mentionedthat I've--I've actually--I've
had an interest in death anddying probably since I was five,
for really no reason inparticular. It's not like a
close family member died, andthen I just got fixated. It was
(02:08):
just, like, apparently, when Iwas five, like, I started asking
a bunch of questions about like,"What happens when we die? And
where do we go when we die?" AndI was also the Grim Reaper for
Halloween when I was five yearsold.
Pen (02:19):
God, that's so cool. It's not--like it's--it's neat that
you had that interest at a youngage and I kind of can't believe,
still, that you had an interestin that before I did, because
that just--like, with ourpersonalities, and just like the
way we present ourselves to theworld, I think that--that, like,
no one would guess that. Though,I did definitely have an
(02:41):
interest in death, at least bythe time I was seven. But I
wasn't nearly as cool in myHalloween costumes when I was
young. Though, my mom was prettycool. inwhat she did.
Harvey (02:50):
To be fair, the three years prior, I was a ladybug.
Pen (02:53):
I love that. I think what it was five It was a tooth
fairy, and my mom made a--shetook, like, I think cardboard,
and wrapped little, like, teethshaped things in, like, tin
foil. So it did have, like, somedetails to it, not that I--I was
just there and I think in pink,which, like, yeah, that face.
Harvey (03:11):
You're wearing pretty much all black right now, so
the--the idea of that isstrange.
Pen (03:16):
You know, Trevon and I went for a walk in a graveyard
recently, because they're nice.
Cemeteries are great places towalk most of the time.
Harvey (03:23):
They are pretty.
Pen (03:24):
And often they have walking paths and things. It's a thing
that people do. He didn't knowthat. He had no context for why
I wanted to take a walk in acemetery. But we--he went with
me anyway, 'cause he's likethat.
Harvey (03:35):
He's a good sport.
Pen (03:35):
Because he's great. But I was, you know, wearing all black
like I do most days. And he waslike, "Is the all black, like,
because of the cemetery?" And Iwas like, "Trevon, when was the
last time you saw me and Iwasn't wearing all black? And he
was like, "You know what? That'sa good point."
Harvey (03:49):
I'm just imagining Trevon's, like, surprised little
"Oh," like--like, you know, theone that he does?
Pen (03:54):
Yeah.
Harvey (03:54):
I'm imagining that one.
But before we keep talking aboutdeath, which probably won't be
that depressing, because we areboth relatively on the death
positive end of the spectrum--
Pen (04:05):
Though, we will be bringing up suicide, at least in terms of
being suicidal. Because, well--
Harvey (04:14):
Well, there's no way that won't affect our
relationship with death.
Pen (04:17):
But I don't think that this is going to be--I suppose it
depends on your perspective, butwe're not going into this
expecting it to be superdepressing.
Harvey (04:24):
Mm-mm. So, Pen.
Pen (04:25):
Yes.
Harvey (04:26):
Tell me...
Pen (04:27):
Yeah.
Harvey (04:27):
...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen (04:30):
Thank you!
Harvey (04:31):
You're welcome.
Pen (04:32):
Ah, well, it's--it's, um--I elistened to the last--last half
of Catching Fire, and then--andMocking--I listened to all of
Mockingjay in the Hunger Gamestrilogy.
Harvey (04:44):
Oh, okay.
Pen (04:44):
Which was, if nothing else, it was interesting. Like, I
really love that trilogy. I loveSuzanne Collins as a writer. I
got into her middle schoolseries, Gregor the Overlander,
when I was, you know, about thatage, and so it was nice to
revisit that and, like, I hadcome across some meta posts
about it. And so I got kind ofinto that, which, you know,
(05:04):
isn't necessarily like a Wahoo!moment, but it is, like, it's
always nice to go back andengage with things that I've
cared about for a while.
Harvey (05:12):
No, for sure.
Pen (05:13):
And sometimes, you know, it can be difficult to reread those
books because they are wickeddepressing, but in ways that I
think are very important.
Harvey (05:21):
For sure. I have to come up with something that isn't,
"Oh, I saw my boyfriend, andthat was nice." Because I do
that most of the time on theweekends that we record, which
really just seems like poorplanning on my part, but I did
see my boyfriend, which isalways nice. I'm trying to think
if there was anything notablethat happened in the past week.
Pen (05:46):
I got the first shot of my vaccine, I forgot about that.
I'm half Moderna'd.
Harvey (05:52):
And I'm going to get Pfizer--Pfizer tomorrow. I've
been--I've been playing a lot ofProject DIVA, which is
a--is--which is a--
Pen (06:03):
Yes, yes, yes!
Harvey (06:04):
Which is a rhythm game based on Vocaloid. I could
infodump about Vocaloid, but I'mnot going to.
Pen (06:11):
On this episode.
Harvey (06:12):
Not on this episode. But yeah, I'll call that my Wahoo!
Moment of the Week. I just--Ienjoy playing that game. It has
brought me joy.
Pen (06:22):
That's great. That's--I do want to clarify, this is like
when Harvey talks about Sonicthe Hedgehog. I don't know
anything about Vocaloids. Ilearned a lot about them
recently.
Harvey (06:33):
You know who Hatsune Miku is.
Pen (06:36):
I actually--it turns out I didn't know who Hatsuna Miku
was. I could recognize HatsuneMiku.
Harvey (06:42):
Well, that's what I mean.
Pen (06:43):
Yeah, yeah, I--but whenever I see Harvey playing Project
DIVA, or frankly, any videogame, I'm like, woo! Yes.
Harvey (06:51):
Typically, because the games I play are very colorful,
and that makes Pen happy.
Pen (06:54):
It's also because I'm supportive.
Harvey (06:56):
That--that, too. But you--
Pen (06:57):
A lot of them are, like, visual stims.
Harvey (06:59):
So you're like, ohh, like ,you like watching me play
Overwatch.
Pen (07:01):
Colors! They move!
Harvey (07:03):
They move so much.
Pen (07:04):
Who would have thunk?
Harvey (07:05):
Who'd'a thunk it? But let's a-thunk about death.
[Laughter] That was nothing.
Pen (07:11):
No, I liked it! I liked it.
That's going in the "featuring."Oh, great. Yeah, let's talk
about death.
Harvey (07:21):
I--so I mentioned, as we were introducing this episode,
that, like, we both--weboth--like, I consider myself
death positive. I don't know ifyou do.
Pen (07:31):
Oh, totally.
Harvey (07:32):
So it might be useful to explain what that means.
Pen (07:35):
Please do.
Harvey (07:36):
Hum, for me, like, I do want to say, like, that doesn't
necessarily mean that I don'thave a complicated relationship
with death. My relationship withdeath is rough. On my--like, on
my dad's side of the family, forexample, there's pretty much
nobody left except my dad, and,like, a distant uncle who I
(07:59):
never talk to. But he and my dadare close, so that's good. But
for me, like, I don't have adad's side of the family. Like,
I have my dad, and that's it.
And I love the guy dearly, butit's definitely complicated
that, like, I, you know, peopletalk about sides of their
families, and it's like, well, Ihave my mom's extended family,
and then I have my dad. So--sothat's troubling. I've also lost
(08:22):
several of my friends to suicideover the years, because we are
all mentally ill, and I amdeeply afraid of death, as
somebody with anxiety. So allthis to say, my relationship
with death personally actuallykind of sucks. But all of that
to say, like, I think thereis--when I say I'm death
(08:46):
positive, I mean that there isbeauty in death. I don't think
that it is something that weshould avoid talking about. I
think that it's important, youknow, all of those things. And
I'm also just--I'm reallyfascinated by the rituals of
death, particularly culturally.
Pen (09:05):
Yes.
Harvey (09:06):
So that's what I mean when I say I'm death positive,
not that I just go through life,and I'm like, "Ha, nothing
matters. I'm gonna die someday,and that's fine." No, I'm very
afraid of dying. But I thinkthat death is neat.
Pen (09:19):
Yeah.
Harvey (09:19):
Really.
Pen (09:20):
Not death positive as in, like, looking forward to it ,or
recommending it as a funactivity, but death positive as
in, the concept of death is nota negative thing.
Harvey (09:30):
Right.
Pen (09:31):
It is something to be conceptually, I think, embraced
in terms of, like, willingnessto understand it and to
recognize it as a part of ourlives.
Harvey (09:44):
Yeah.
Pen (09:45):
Fundamentally, because, you know, life
Harvey (09:50):
It does. There's a--unless you're like--like a
F'ed-up, like, bottom seacreature, some of those
who--that legitimately don'tdie. But that is--they don't
count.
Pen (10:00):
That's none of my business.
Harvey (10:02):
No, the ocean can stay where it is, and I don't need to
know anything about it.
Pen (10:06):
We are going--we--this is death in terms of humanity,
which is so much messier.
Harvey (10:11):
Yes.
Pen (10:13):
Yeah, yeah, I--let's see, when did I start thinking about
death? Well, I got really into,and I'm still not sure why, I
got interested in ancient Egyptand mythology when I was about
seven. I think it might havebeen that Egyptology book, which
I didn't realize at the time waswicked fake, but it was one of
(10:35):
those like, guidebook, whatever,things.
Harvey (10:38):
I mean, you were a kid.
Pen (10:39):
Yeah, no, totally. And I found the mythology really
interesting, because, well, Imean, mythology, is--it's
stories, and who doesn't likestories as a kid? Especially
someone who was obsessive inreading?
Harvey (10:51):
Yeah, mythology is super cool.
Pen (10:52):
Yeah. And I also got into Greek mythology, which doesn't
count, because that's--
Harvey (10:57):
Because you're gay.
Pen (10:58):
No--well, because it's such a common interest. But yeah, I
am queer, which means I was--
Harvey (11:03):
Sorry, yes, you're queer.
Pen (11:05):
Uh-huh. No, it's all good, it's good. Yes. So that was when
I started, you know, having somekind of relationship with death
and thoughts, because a lot ofancient Egyptian mythology and
culture revolved around death,which--and it was in a very
death positive kind of way.Deathwasn't something that they,
(11:25):
like, shied away from as aconcept, in part because life
was pretty good. Thank you, theNile River. And so it was, like,
a continuation of that, and allof the rituals surrounding it.
It's very compelling anddetailed enough to be
interesting, even--even as akid. So that was, I think, where
(11:47):
it started, but where it really,like, crystallized in terms of
an existential thing for me waswhen I was--the summer, that I
turned 15.
Harvey (12:01):
Would've been, what, 2013?
Pen (12:03):
I think so, yeah. I believe it was then that I had an
existential crisis foressentially the entire summer.
Harvey (12:11):
Right. You mention this to me often.
Pen (12:13):
It was like--a lot of it was rooted in being wicked
depressed.
Harvey (12:18):
That'll do it.
Pen (12:19):
But sometimes I would talk about death with my therapist,
Charlie. And--
Harvey (12:23):
Tummy man!
Pen (12:23):
Yes! He gave me two books.
He gave me Man's Search forMeaning, and he gave me On Death
and Dying, and I never actuallyread On Death and Dying, which
is kind of a shame. But Man'sSearch for Meaning included,
like, a lot on on death andthings. And so that was
something I started thinkingabout. I think I read Smoke Gets
in Your Eyes and Other Lessonsfrom the Crematory by Caitlin...
Harvey (12:42):
Doughty.
Pen (12:43):
Doughty Thank you. I never remember.
Harvey (12:47):
We both love Caitlin Doughty.
If--I don't think sheever will, but if Caitlin
Pen (12:48):
We do, we do. We both rea Smoke Gets in Your Eyes.
Doughty ever listens to thispodcast, and particularly this
episode, I think I might die onthe spot, just from being
starstruck.
That's funny.
Harvey (13:03):
Oh! I just noticed the irony of me that.
Pen (13:07):
No, I loved it, and it was a great introduction into, you
know, thinking about death morephilosophically, particularly in
terms of, like, culturesurrounding it. And yeah, it
was--oh, no, I think it was thesummer I turned 16. Anyway,
that's not the important part.
Fifteen? Nope, no brains. Nobrains. Yeah, it was--it wasn't
an inherently positiveexperience, but it was also,
(13:30):
like, sitting in existentialthings is something that I am
very able to do, and I thinkthat's--that is part of where it
started, or where it, like, justbecame a thing for me. And it
was when I started thinkingabout, like, death in society,
and how much we talked about it,which is to say, how much we
don't talk about it. And a lotof that is just, you know, the
(13:54):
thesis of Smoke Gets in YourEyes.
Harvey (13:56):
Right.
Pen (13:58):
But--and then I started thinking about it kind of a lot
in terms of being at leastpassively suicidal for at least
two years. But I was alsodepressed, so whether or not it
was--like, that was when I wasconsistent, and every day.
Harvey (14:16):
Right.
Pen (14:16):
Eh, yeah. So you know, you think about it.
Harvey (14:20):
And you know, I know that I've been--like, we were
talking before the podcast. Idon't know what brought this on,
because again, I don't remembermy childhood, but I've been
interested in death, probablysince I was five or so. I was
literally the Grim Reaper forHalloween when I was five, and
then the three years beforethat, I was a ladybug. But all
of that to say, like,I--the--like, death has been a
(14:42):
long standing interest of mine.
And definitely, some of that isinfluenced by the fact that I
have been, in one way oranother, suicidal since I was
12. I describe myself nowadaysas sort of functionally
suicidal. Typically somethingwill bring on suicidal ideation.
Like, if I'm inconvenienced, orif something really upsetting
(15:06):
happens, I'm like, "I shouldjust kill myself." But, you
know, it's--it's--it feels--avery different place than I was
when I was a teen, because Iwould think about it, and there
was a point at which I actuallyattempted suicide, and failed,
because thankfully, I didn'tknow the dosage of what I took.
Pen (15:26):
That's good.
Harvey (15:27):
Yeah, that's for--that's for the best. And it's like, I'm
not going to get into specificsabout what I took, or how much,
but I'm gonna say it was areasonable amount to take for a
headache.
Pen (15:37):
Oh, I'm so glad that you didn't know.
Harvey (15:39):
I'm so glad that I was a stupid 12 year old. But all of
that to say, death has been moreor less a constant in my brain
since I was 12, just becauseI've been so consistently
suicidal to varying degrees.
Like, I'm sitting here rightnow, and I don't feel like
killing myself. But--
Pen (15:56):
Nice!
Harvey (15:57):
There's that--thank you.
There is that knowledge that, inthe back of my head, it's there.
And there's a part of me that'sthinking about it sometimes. So
that has meant that I've thoughtabout it and my feelings on it.
And well, would I really want todie? And thinking about well,
what's going to happen when Idie? What--like, you know,
(16:17):
the--like, because I'm not I'mnot particularly religious. I
was--I was raised religious, butI'm--I don't really believe in
anything, at least right now. Soas it stands, I don't believe
that anything happens when wedie. And trying to wrap my head
around that is literallyimpossible. I can't just imagine
(16:38):
nothing.
Pen (16:42):
Like, yes, you're right.
Literally, the human braincan't.
Harvey (16:45):
It's just antithetical, like--so, I think that's
probably where it started myphilosophical thinking on death,
where I just was suicidal for solong that when I started getting
better, it was like, well, I'mstill thinking about death,
because I've been thinking aboutit for you know, at this point,
five years, you know, I was 17,probably when I started thinking
(17:05):
about it philosophically. So Iwas like, huh. And then I
stumbled across Smoke Gets inYour Eyes and Caitlin Doughty's
YouTube channel, and, well, hereI am now.
Pen (17:15):
It's a great, great book--
Harvey (17:17):
Oh, yes. Very good.
Pen (17:17):
--Smoke Gets in Your Eyes.
It is heavy. There are a lot ofheavy parts of it because she
speaks so frankly about it. Ithink it's very important, and
it's a very good read. It's nota great read for if you are
currently very depressed.
Harvey (17:28):
If you're currently suicidal, don't read it. Just,
I'm just going to bestraightforward.
Pen (17:32):
Like, a heavy preoccupation on death is not a great thing to
introduce if you are alreadyheavily preoccupied with death.
Harvey (17:42):
Yes.
Pen (17:43):
Especially because she also speaks about her own experiences
with, like, mental illness,and--and things related to
death, which are fascinating andcan be great. Not if you're
there.
Harvey (17:54):
No.
Pen (17:55):
Probably.
Harvey (17:55):
No.
Pen (17:56):
Like, y'all know yourselves best. Just be aware.
Harvey (18:00):
You know, this wasn't something that we talked about
discussing on the episode, butthis is actually reminding me,
probably about a month ago, Igot interested in the idea of
assisted suicide for terminallyill folks.
Pen (18:14):
Oh, I didn't know.
Harvey (18:15):
Yeah, it was--it was something that I very much on my
own. I was--I got reallyinterested in assisted suicide,
and also palliative care.
Pen (18:24):
I remember you bringing up being interested in palliative
care.
Harvey (18:26):
And--and for those of you who don't know, Palliative
care is the kind of medical carewe offer to folks who are
terminally ill. It's--it's aboutmaking them comfortable. It's
end of life, hospice, that sortof thing. Really just trying to
ensure quality of life at theend of life. And I remember
coming across thisdocumentary--or not--like--like
(18:47):
a short, yeah, I will say adocumentary, like, a short,
20-minute documentary about awoman, I think, from Belgium.
Belgium, possibly? One of thoseWestern, like, Germanic European
countries, who had really severedepression, who had been
(19:08):
depressed for years, and years,and years, and it was severe,
and it wasn't letting up. Andshe lived in one of the very few
countries that did offerassisted suicide for mental
health.
Pen (19:18):
I've never heard of that before.
Harvey (19:19):
It's extraordinarily rare, but the philosophy was
fascinating, because, you know,they needed, like, three
clinicians to sign off on thisbecause it's such a--just a
touchy and, you know, like, kindof messy subject. And the
philosophy that the--like, Idon't know how I feel about this
(19:41):
necessarily, but I do think it'sat least an intriguing idea to
engage with, and the philosophyof one of the doctors was, well,
much like physical suffering,you know, this woman is in an
unimaginable amount of justunrelenting pain, and her
depression is resistant to anykind of treatment. She isn't
getting better. So much likephysical illness, I don't know
(20:04):
why we should force her to keepliving if she's in a same level
of pain. And even with me beingmentally ill, and recognizing
that mental illness affects mein a very similar way that some
of my physical illnesses do,that was still, like, kind of a
shock to my system. And it'slike, well--well, how could you
say that? Surely there'ssomething they could do. But
maybe there isn't. Which wasjust--what you said reminded me
(20:29):
of that. So it was just sort ofintriguing to consider like,
huh. And she did go through withit. She initially, like, when it
was her day to end her life, shebacked out. And then two years
later, she decided to go throughwith it.
Pen (20:47):
I think that is a particularly telling aspect.
Because that doesn't surpriseme, that there would be the
backing out in the moment, and Ithink that's what people tend to
expect--
Harvey (20:55):
Yeah.
Pen (20:56):
--when it comes to suicide in particular, like, that
moment, right before. Butit's--I had never heard of that,
and I do think that that's veryinteresting. And typically, I am
against things where you need tohave, like, multiple letters and
things from clinicians, becauseit's just hoops to jump through.
Harvey (21:14):
But I think in the case of assisted suicide for
depression--
Pen (21:17):
I think that's very different. Exactly. Like, I'm
currently starting the processof jumping through some hoops,
because I'm trans and insurancecompanies won't let me be trans.
That's very, very differentthan, like, this decision is
genuinely so hugely impactful,and something that--like, one of
(21:37):
the requirements for getting topsurgery, which is what I'm
trying to jump through hoops todo--
Harvey (21:41):
Which I'm also trying to do. Going through the same
surgeon.
Pen (21:46):
--which is essentially like being of sound mind.
Harvey (21:48):
Yeah.
Pen (21:49):
Which, like, that is inherently what is being
questioned in this. And I thinkthat that's very interesting,
and I do think that there issomething to be said there in
terms of, like, why are weforcing people to continue when
they are in incredible pain? Andalso, I think, like, is that our
right to do? Like, who--whoholds the right over someone's
(22:14):
life? Is it them? And if itisn't, or if it is, when do
those circumstances change?
Harvey (22:22):
Yeah. And it's--it's a real conundrum to think through,
I think.
Pen (22:28):
Oh, yeah. I don't think that there are any simple
answers to those questions.
Harvey (22:32):
No, it is deeply, deeply complicated. But, y'know, I've
been--pretty much ever since Iwatched that documentary, I've
been thinking about it just sortof in the back of my head, like,
what do I think about this? Notthat it's really my place to
make a decision, but it's stilllike, it's--it's, like, an
interesting philosophical...
Pen (22:50):
Yeah. If nothing else, like, it's, I think it's worth
thinking about. Worth--worthchewing on. It's--
Harvey (22:57):
And, you know, like, despite having never known this
woman, and you know, like, shedied back in, I think, 2018, I
found myself grieving her,actually, for reasons that I
can't explain. My nearest guessis that, like, I think I felt
some level of connection.
Pen (23:18):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:18):
Like, clearly, my--my depression is not that severe,
considering like, I my--mydepression is manageable enough
to where I actively want tocontinue to live.
Pen (23:27):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:28):
And she was in pretty much the exact opposite position
where it's like, "I activelywant to die because I'm in so
much pain."
Pen (23:33):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:34):
But I think there was that level of kinship of just
sort of the experience ofdepression.
Pen (23:39):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:40):
So, like, even though, like, at the end of the day, I'm
glad that she's at peace, like,there's a part of me that's
like, man. That's--it'sjust--it's just such a strange
thing to think through.
Pen (23:52):
And I think that that relates to one of the things
that we were going to talkabout, which is the complexities
of grief, and you had some veryinteresting thoughts, I think,
on that,
Harvey (24:01):
When I was talking with Pen in the car, I mentioned
that, for one reason oranother--that I still haven't
been able to pin down--but thekind of grief that I experience
when someone close to me dies isvery similar to the kind of
grief that I experience whensomeone I loved is just out of
(24:23):
my life. And the way that Iexplained it is, you know, when
somebody dies, and I grieve thatperson, it's not that I grieve
the fact that they are dead.
Cognitively, I'm, like, you'velived your life. You were likely
in pain before the end, so I'mglad that you at rest, I'm glad
that you were able to enjoy yourlife, ostensibly. And--but
(24:43):
it's--it's the fact that they'regone. Like my grandmother, she
passed away in the--eh--she diedin the beginning of 2020. I
think it was January 3rd ofJanuary 4th, so she never knew
COVID-19, which is somethingelse.
Pen (25:02):
Yeah, oh, God. Wow.
Harvey (25:04):
Yeah. But in any case, like, I still grieve her, and I
still miss her. But it's--it'snot the fact that she passed. I
sobbed when I saw her dead body.
Pen (25:17):
That makes sense.
Harvey (25:17):
But it was--it was not so much the fact that I was
seeing a dead body and knowingthat, like, this is the--my
grandmother was cremated, thatwas the last time I would ever
see her. The last interaction Ihad with her was the last
interaction I was ever going tohave. The last thing she ever
heard me say, and she's nevergoing to be in my life anymore.
(25:40):
And that is the tricky part. Andsimilarly, I don't think he
uses--I don't think he listensto this podcast, so I'll use his
name. There was a--there was aguy I fell in love with very
quickly, at the end of 2019,beginning of 2020, named Louis.
We dated for a very short periodof time, it was like a month and
(26:01):
a half. But the problem with meis that I'm a hopeless romantic,
and I fall in love easily. Ilove easily romantically,
platonically, what have you. Andwithout getting into specifics,
because I don't think that'sreally my thing to share on such
a public forum, the waythat--that relationship ended
(26:22):
was messy with, you know, like,some--some, I still think, like,
some pretty significant mistakeson my part. But, you know, the
opinion of my friends differs.
In any case--
Pen (26:36):
If nothing else, is a very complex situation.
Harvey (26:39):
Yeah. And in any case, I grieve him in much the same way
that I grieve my grandmother. Ofcourse, it feels different
because he was a romanticpartner, and I also know that
he's still alive. But like, I dohave that acute awareness that
he will almost certainly neverbe in my life again. And that
(27:02):
hurts. And it is painful,because I thought that he was a
wonderful person. And the lastinteraction I have--I had with
him, which was pretty bad, Iknow, is probably going to be my
last. And yeah, so that's thething. Like, in my mind, it
(27:25):
seems that folks separate thegrief that--like, first of all,
it seems like the folksseparate--sorry. It seems like
folks don't recognize that,like, just not having someone in
your life anymore if theyhaven't died can be a source of
grief.
Pen (27:40):
Yes.
Harvey (27:40):
And when they do, they--I think they posit that
grief as something inherentlyseparate from death, but I don't
think that's true.
Pen (27:47):
And I think, often, as inherently lesser.
Harvey (27:50):
Yes.
Pen (27:50):
That there is like, Grief, capital G, and it's the one
related to death, and it's thebig one. And then there is like
grief in all other aspects justisn't as severe because "it's
not like they're dead."
Harvey (28:02):
"It's not like they're dead. Like, they could come
back," and it's like, okay,butare they gonna?
Pen (28:05):
Yeah, and it's--I think the way you were talking about it, I
think, speaks a lot to, like,the distinction between being
sad because someone is deadversus being sad--that's because
someone is gone. And also, like,let's stop--here's--here's my
take, let's stop with theeuphemisms for death because
like saying "Gone" when you mean"Dead," also, like, I think
(28:26):
contributes to that, like,lessening of the perception of
grief for people who areliterally just, like, genuinely
gone from your life. Not dead,just gone.
Harvey (28:36):
Like Louis, as far as I know, unless something
catastrophic happened, like,he's still alive, but he's gone.
Like, I'm probably never goingto talk to him again.
Pen (28:43):
But the distinction between being sad because someone is
dead versus being sad, becausesomeone is gone, I think, speaks
to, like, being able to be deathpositive, while still, you know,
having a painful and complexrelationship with death itself.
Like, it's not that someone hasdied that is scary and sad. That
part is just true. And that partis, sure, like, there's--there
(29:05):
are emotions attached to it, butthat versus the person themself
being gone. These are separatethings. They are connected,
inherently, they areintertwined. But I think that
there is a lot there.
Harvey (29:19):
Yeah.
Pen (29:23):
Yeah, it's, gosh, there are so many things that we could go
into, and that perhaps wewill--we will in the future,
certain ones, I know, I broughtup the idea of possibly doing an
episode that's more historicallybased for things like how--one
of the reasons that mentally illpeople, and neurodivergent
people generally, but I specifymentally ill In this episode,
(29:46):
because my ADHD does not make mesuicidal.
Harvey (29:49):
Right. And neither does my autism.
Pen (29:51):
Yeah, like, these are--these are distinct. Like,
mental illness in terms ofthings that cause us to suffer.
That's why people get suicidal.
This is a symptom of a largerproblem.
Harvey (30:02):
It's often not really a matter of, like, actively
wanting to die, and more amatter of not wanting to be in
pain.
Pen (30:11):
Yes. Which is a very, very important distinction to draw
that not everyone does. But it'ssomething that, you know, we
think about regularly because weare mentally ill, and we think
about suicide because we're inpain. And then it's also
something that has been done tous. Asylums and institutions
where neurodivergent people,more broadly, because in any way
(30:34):
that you were divergent fromwhat was expected, you could be
in an asylum. Also, just forbeing AFAB. You could just be in
an asylum.
Harvey (30:45):
Like, God forbid if you had desire.
Pen (30:48):
Yeah, like literally just sometimes, like having sexual
desire, and also a vagina waslike, lock them up. And that's
not a joke.
Harvey (30:57):
That's what hysteria is.
Pen (30:59):
Yeah. It's--mm.
Harvey (30:59):
It's based on Freudian psychology. Anyway...
Pen (31:03):
And Freud was a--was a--
Harvey (31:05):
Bite, bite, violence.
Pen (31:07):
Bite, bite, violence. But, like, the "treatments"
administered killed patients.
Electroshock therapy, for one.
And the way that patients weretreated, even in death, like I
brought up potters'--pottersfields or paupers' grave
, depending on, I think, like,the region you're from, which
are graves that are--th--the gravestones aren't u
(31:29):
marked, exactly, it's just thatthey're only numbers. And one o
the reasons, like, they're caled paupers' graves beca
se sometimes it was just, ifyou were poor, and no one c
uld afford a better burial spotfor you, you would be burie
in these fields. But sometimeit was also, like, an asylum
would just bury their patiets in these graves that did no
mark their names or anything rlated to that, because they w
(31:52):
ren't really being treated entirly as human b
Harvey (31:55):
And here's the thing, I don't necessarily believe that
the modern way that we bury ourdead, or really take care of our
dead, is good.
Pen (32:06):
No.
Harvey (32:06):
The way that we bury people is not great. And even
cremation is complex.
Pen (32:11):
Particularly, I think, in the United States is where we
reach a lot of these issues.
Harvey (32:15):
And yeah, something to keep in mind through every
episode that you listen is thatwe're talking from the
positionality of the UnitedStates.
Pen (32:21):
Yes.
Harvey (32:22):
But all of that to say, given that--regardless of my
feelings on how burial and thefuneral industry is--given the
cultural significance of burial,and having a marked grave and
being remembered, to be deniedthat is a problem.
Pen (32:40):
That is--like, that is the piece of it. Our ritual
surrounding death as a countryare functionally nonexistent.
Harvey (32:47):
They're bad.
Pen (32:47):
We're--it breaks us. It removes us from our own lives in
some ways. I think part of thereason that seeing the bodies of
our loved ones, which--Ihave--I've never been to--I've
been to a wake only a coupletimes, one for a relative who,
I'm going to be real, I don'tremember who it was. It was part
(33:10):
of my mom's extended family andmeant nothing to me. But I did
sure have to be there, which isan unfortunate situation to be
in, where everyone's, like,really sad, and you have no
idea, like...
Harvey (33:20):
Who this person is.
Pen (33:21):
You're like, "Okay..." And then, um...
Harvey (33:23):
Well, I am sorry, but--
Pen (33:25):
Yeah, like, ooh, and I was also, like, a kid, so I was like
okay, what do I do? That wasactually around the time The
Hunger Games came out, because Italked to one of my cousins
about the movie.
Harvey (33:38):
Good lord.
Pen (33:40):
So that's sort of funny.
Um, but yeah. And then there wasa wake for a girl who I'd been
very close friends with when Iwas very, very young, when I
was, like, five. She was my nextdoor neighbor. And then she
moved, and we were less close.
She was in the grade above me.
And when we were in high school,she got leukemia...
Harvey (34:00):
Oh, wow.
Pen (34:00):
...which eventually killed her. And I was at her wake. I
did not see the body. We did notstay long, because we hadn't
been close in quite some time.
And so I have never--I've neverhad the experience of seeing a
loved one's body. But from whatI've heard from pretty much
everyone I've talked to whois--particularly bodies that
have been embalmed and, wheneverthey have touched the body,
(34:24):
because that's the thing thatpeople do at the wake sometimes,
they'll like, you know, one lasttime seeing them or touching
them. Their responses, prettyuniversally, "It was horrible. I
wish I hadn't done it thatwas--that wasn't them," is what
I've heard a lot.
Harvey (34:38):
You know, my experience was actually quite different.
Pen (34:40):
Hmm.
Harvey (34:41):
My--my grandmother, who is, as far as I can remember,
like, I think I've seen otherdead bodies, but her dead body
is the only body that I rememberseeing, and she was cremated, so
I saw her before anythinghappened. I actually--I still
remember the morning. I hadgotten up, probably around 9 or
10, and I was going to thebathroom and I heard my dad on
(35:06):
the phone, and just throughcontext clues, I could figure
out what he was saying, that shehad passed--or that she had
died. So after I finished usingthe restroom, we drove about
half an hour to the--to thehospice center that she was
staying at. And they werepreparing her body, just so
(35:29):
that, like, you know, itdidn't--like, I think they wiped
away, like, some fluids, becausethat happens when people die.
And we walked into the room, andshe had died probably two hours
before. So likely--I don't knowif rigor mortis would have set
in at that point. I didn't touchher. But we walked in the blinds
(35:51):
were open, the lights were off,and she was laying on her back
with her head up, eyes closed,mouth slightly agape, her hands
crossed across her chest. Andthere were flower petals that
the nurses--that the nursesplaced on her sheets.
Pen (36:14):
Oh.
Harvey (36:14):
And when I think about that gesture, it still gets me
really emotional becausemy--more or less, my grandmother
died of cancer. She developedstage four oral cancer. She had
her entire lower jaw removed.
And she lived for years afterthat. She lived for three years
(36:39):
after that. But the cancer cameback. She was in remission for a
few years, the cancer came back.
She had already been through thesurgery, and she was too weak to
do more. There was nothing thatcould be done. And it was the
most at peace that I had everseen her in years. And that's,
(37:04):
for me, that's where the beautyin death lies.
Pen (37:07):
Yeah. That's--
Harvey (37:08):
Even though I'm, like, literally crying, I think for
the first time on this podcast,she was still.
Pen (37:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:17):
And she was--and she was at peace. And her surroundings
were just beautiful and serene.
And I think--I think that wasthe--I think that was the day
that I started to stop beingafraid to die.
Pen (37:41):
That's--that's a really--I'm glad that you had
that experience. And I thinkthat that also speaks pretty
directly to, like--the timesthat I've--I've heard people
talk about being upsetwith--with what they saw have
been times where they were at awake, and the body was
embalmbed, and the way thatbodies look when they've been
(38:05):
embalmed and prepared by thefuneral industry is, frankly,
they just look unnatural becausethey are.
Harvey (38:11):
Yeah, I mean, you've--you've pumped that body
with chemicals so that they looksome more alive.
Pen (38:16):
And then the preparations done to a body in those
scenarios are very differentthan the preparations that were
taken by the, I assume,nurses...
Harvey (38:26):
Nurses, yes.
Pen (38:26):
...at the at the hospice, which honestly like that sounds
rather lovely in, like--flowerpetals. That's just a--it's a
very nice--I like that.
Harvey (38:39):
It was a--it was a gorgeous gesture. And it was, I
think, the most--like my friendswho killed themselves, they were
all long distance, so I nevergot to go to their funerals. I
never really got to properlygrieve. That was a particularly
salient experience for me,because it was me and my dad
(39:03):
alone in this hospice room withmy dead grandmother, just there.
And I'm like sobbing and mydad's just kind of hugging me to
his side. And I think that wasthe most directly I was ever
able to grieve someone. Youknow?
Pen (39:23):
I'm glad that you had that.
Harvey (39:25):
Yeah. Anyway, I don't mean to take up this podcast
with stories about my deadgrandma.
Pen (39:29):
That's a very important thing. And I think
that--that--that is one of thethings that I wanted to talk
about in this, is like, ourrelationship with death, and how
we grieve, and if we get togrieve, truly. And--there's a
quote, and I'm going to probablymisquote it a little bit,
(39:49):
because I don't have the book infront of me, so I can't, like,
post it, but...
Harvey (39:53):
You'll get the essence, I'm sure.
Pen (39:54):
Yes. From Smoke Gets in Your Eyes by Caitlin Doughty.
Doughty?
Harvey (39:59):
Doughty, yes.
Pen (39:59):
Yeah, of--one of the important parts of the book is
her talking about her traumaticexperience in her childhood that
led to her preoccupation withdeath. And she talked about how
And when we are, it's in thisvery, like, somewhat contrived,
things might have been--thinkingon how things might have been
different if she had beenintroduced to death as a child,
which we don't do. And we shoulddo. As she also says, in the
(40:23):
book, like, 100 years ago, woulbe unheard of for a child t
have never seen a dead body. Anthat's--that's part of why it'
so scary for us is because we'rnever around death
and, like, controlled setting.
So we really just don't see thereality of death.
Exactly. And--but she saidsomething to the effect of,
(40:48):
"thinking about how it mighthave been different if I had
been introduced to death as achild, and been made to shake
his hand, and know that he wasgoing to be a part of--was going
to be there throughout all of mylife, waiting." Something to
that effect. And it was the sortof impossibly connected thing.
Harvey (41:13):
Yeah.
Pen (41:14):
I heard that, and it took me back to a time when I must
have been, like, I don't know,maybe eight, fairly young.
Harvey (41:21):
I remember you telling me this.
Pen (41:22):
Yes. My mom is a teacher.
She's a science teacher. And soher classroom is--she's,like,
biology based. So in herclassroom, growing up
was--oftentimes, there was askeleton, because, you know, she
taught anatomy and physiology.
So there was a skeleton, andthere was a real one. And, you
know, I was fairly young andnot--not around death much. And
(41:47):
so I saw the skeleton, and atfirst, I was kind of scared of
it. I was especially a veryanxious child. And so, if the
skeleton was gonna keep beingaround, I needed to figure out a
way to deal with that. And Idecided the best way to stop
being scared of the skeletonwould be to make friends. And so
(42:08):
one day, and regularly forlittle while, so I could ge
used to it, I went to thskeleton, and I picked up th
arm, and I shook its hand. Andthink that is where some of m
ability to be more comfortabland less afraid of death and
the remains of death started inmy mother's classroom. Not just
(42:32):
shaking the hands with askeleton, but there were skulls
there as well. She had some jarsof preserved animals. She would
regularly be cleaning pans frodissections. That was som
thing that I was introduced tos just--not only a part of li
e, but a part of the world as ahole, like, sometimes you just c
me across the remains of dead flks, and it's fine.
Harvey (42:59):
Yeah, like it doesn't necessarily have to be this
traumatic and spooky thing. It'sokay if it is, especially if you
experienced a disaster, muchlike, you know, Caitlin Doughty
did.
Pen (43:09):
Yes.
Harvey (43:11):
It's a lot of the time, I think, trauma comes less from
death itself and more from thecircumstances.
Pen (43:16):
Yes.
Harvey (43:19):
So, yeah, no, I was hoping you would bring that up.
Pen (43:22):
Yeah. It's--and I think that that is--that is a real
thing is trying to find comfort,and being able to find comfort
in, like, I shook hands with askeleton, and--
Harvey (43:38):
Who used to inhabit a body.
Pen (43:40):
Yeah.
Harvey (43:40):
That was a person.
Pen (43:41):
And then I was less scared.
And that was such a rare thingfor me, too, when I was young,
particularly. To be less scared,to be able to find a way to be
comfortable in something. Like,I was anxious--anxiety-ridden.
And so to find some more comfortin this thing, and to like,
also, like, part of the reasonthat I like taking walks in
cemeteries is because my mom hasalways done that. And, like,
(44:01):
being able to be around death,and the remnants of death, and
places where people grieve, andwhere people are buried, and to
find peace in that, is somethingI'm very grateful that I have
learned how to do. Andsometimes, when I'm not doing
well on my own, and I'm in apretty rough or depressive spot,
(44:25):
which I've been in recently, andwas definitely in when I went
for that walk with Trevon, beingaround these things, these--
eing around graves and thingscan bring me so much peace,
because it is something that isinherently sort of bigger than
me, but not impossible. Like,there is--like, I feel very
(44:50):
serious, and also, in some ways,very calm around things like
that. And there's a lot of--ofwonder and beauty and walking
around a graveyard, and readingthe names, and giving a sense of
remembrance. You know what itis? It's a ritual. There's a
ritual feeling to it, and thatis where the peace comes from,
(45:11):
because rituals are so importantfor us as human beings, and we
lack them so much, not just indeath, in the US today. And--
Harvey (45:25):
The US has practically, like, no cohesive culture. There
are certain things that I thinkare hallmarks of the United
States. Think right-leaningpolitics, no matter what party
you're in, and--
Pen (45:39):
Baseball.
Harvey (45:40):
Ba--John Madden, John Madden, John Madden, Football!
Pen (45:44):
That's Football!
Harvey (45:46):
I know, but, I mean, as someone living in the United
States, like, I don't feelconnected to an American
culture.
Pen (45:55):
And that's--that is usually problematic for us as--as just
human beings, not problematic,like, cancel culture.
Problematic, like, our function.
Harvey (46:02):
Like human beings rely on group dynamics, on culture,
on a sense of identity. And Ithink there is a crisis that
we're experiencing in the UnitedStates where we... like, that's
not happening.
Pen (46:17):
And I think particularly white people in the United
States have just a complete lackof cultural identity for the
most part, unless there is aanother facet of life, or of
culture, or ethnicity, thatsomeone can connect to that,
like--you know, when you arenative-born to a country,
(46:39):
there's often establishedrituals based there. And that
gets very, very complicated interms of colonialism, and how
that erases native culture andritual.
Harvey (46:48):
Of course.
Pen (46:49):
And this is not me saying, "Oh, poor white people," but
legitimately, we lack a cohesiveculture. And culture is very,
very good for human beings. Thisis something I actually have an
ability to speak on as acommunication studies major. In
terms of, like, ritualcommunication, which is
essentially communication thatwe are doing not to transmit or
receive new information. Like,ritual versus transmission
(47:11):
theories of communication, orjust, like, types. Transmission,
as you know, like a newspaper.
We're receiving news, we arelearning something, or sending
out information. Ritualcommunication, we're talking
about things we alreadyunderstand. Church is a good
example. You're not learninganything new. It's the
same--they've had the book for avery, very long time,
Harvey (47:33):
The bread of God is bread, bread is God is bread.
Pen (47:38):
Or talking to your friends after school about things that
happened at school. You're notlearning new information. Memes,
as a whole. But you are sharing,still, a communication with each
other. You are reinforcing yourbond and mutual understanding.
And that is so important, and sogood for us. And a lot of that
(47:59):
can come from understoodcultural rituals. And if we're
going to understand something ascomplex as death, cultural
rituals surrounding it are ahuge aspect of how to find peace
in it, and we have not had thatfor a very long time, since
about the Civil War. And eventhen, it was lacking in a lot of
the rich culture andestablished, meaningful rituals.
Harvey (48:24):
Right. We should start wrapping up.
Pen (48:27):
We should start wrapping up. Clearly, I have things on
that.
Harvey (48:31):
Yes. So Pen, any closing thoughts about death, or dying,
or both?
Pen (48:38):
It's hard, and that's okay.
Thinking about it as hard. Andthat's all right. And if this
episode has been uncomfortable,for you, as a person just
listening to it, that's okay,and that's natural. And I think
that there's a lot to learn, anda lot of opportunities to grow,
and to feel more comfortable inyourself when you consider it
(48:59):
from a perspective that is notjust frightening and alien. One
of the ways that I've been ableto ground myself and to feel
better during depressiveepisodes is thinking on death
and the reality of it. And thatoften leads me to thinking about
my life, and that I'm living it,and that that is a choice that
(49:21):
I'm making, too. And maybe thisepisode hasn't been our most
coherent, but...
Harvey (49:29):
Certainly not.
Pen (49:30):
No, but there is--we do not need to be afraid and our
feelings get to be our feelings.
Your grief is real, regardlessof the context of it, and it's
okay to let yourself just feel.
Harvey (49:53):
Yeah.
Pen (49:54):
Harvey, do you have anything that you would like to
say?
Harvey (50:03):
To--to Amy, and Aidyn, and Jonas, and Grandma Carol.
You're gone. But are you,really? There's a part of you
that's going to stick with mefor the rest of my life. And I'm
grateful for that. So anyway,stick around for just a few more
(50:24):
minutes, we'll tell you a littlebit more about how this podcast
is run and our Patreon.
Beyond Introspection is anindependently-run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atByndPodcast or you can email us
at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com.
That's beyond d-o-t podcast, nospaces. We publish on
(50:46):
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description.
Pen (50:57):
We also have a Patreon. You can find us at
patreon.com/beyondintrospection.
That's all one word. We alsohave links to it on our site and
on our social media. Our podcastis entirely independent, so we
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Got feedback for us?
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Hello, and welcome to Beyond Introspection
about mental health,neurodivergence, and how it
impacts literally every aspectof our lives.
Harvey (00:18):
All of them.
Pen (00:19):
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:20):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:20):
And this week we're going to talk about death.
Harvey (00:23):
Yeah. And this was brought on by a conversation
that me and Pen had in my car. Iforget, we were in, like,
a--like, a suburb of Chicago.
Pen (00:34):
Yeah. Because I was--you were driving me to pick up a
book.
Harvey (00:36):
Right. I couldn't-
Pen (00:37):
And we got Girl Scout cookies.
Harvey (00:38):
That's the thing. I was trying to be like, okay, why
were we there? And the only partI could remember was Girl Scout
cookies, which was not why wewere there.
Pen (00:45):
No, but like, it could have been.
Harvey (00:47):
It really could have been. But yeah, we ended up
having, like, a long-ishdiscussion about death and
dying, and we were like, huh,this would be a good podcast
episode.
Pen (00:58):
Yeah. Which, I imagine is a surprise to no one who's
listened to this and knows mepersonally, that I was, like,
let's talk about death becausethat's sort of--that is
something that I do bring up.
Not in a goth way, though, like,not that that's a bad thing. It
is legitimately just, like, me.
Harvey (01:17):
You're at least a little bit goth.
Pen (01:18):
I am. It's just, that's not why I talk about death.
Harvey (01:20):
No, sure, sure.
Pen (01:21):
That's--that's organic.
Much like how we should betreating death, as a society.
As, like, a literal part of theprocess of our lives, and not as
something separate and scary.
Particularly in terms of, youknow, putting things back into
nature, and not embalming bodiesfor literally no reason, and
then tossing them into a casket,and then putting the casket into
(01:43):
a big plastic vault, and justtaking up space.
Harvey (01:47):
They're gonna decompose anyway. But we'll--we'll get
into that. It might surprisefolks a little--I know it
surprised you--when I mentionedthat I've--I've actually--I've
had an interest in death anddying probably since I was five,
for really no reason inparticular. It's not like a
close family member died, andthen I just got fixated. It was
(02:08):
just, like, apparently, when Iwas five, like, I started asking
a bunch of questions about like,"What happens when we die? And
where do we go when we die?" AndI was also the Grim Reaper for
Halloween when I was five yearsold.
Pen (02:19):
God, that's so cool. It's not--like it's--it's neat that
you had that interest at a youngage and I kind of can't believe,
still, that you had an interestin that before I did, because
that just--like, with ourpersonalities, and just like the
way we present ourselves to theworld, I think that--that, like,
no one would guess that. Though,I did definitely have an
(02:41):
interest in death, at least bythe time I was seven. But I
wasn't nearly as cool in myHalloween costumes when I was
young. Though, my mom was prettycool. inwhat she did.
Harvey (02:50):
To be fair, the three years prior, I was a ladybug.
Pen (02:53):
I love that. I think what it was five It was a tooth
fairy, and my mom made a--shetook, like, I think cardboard,
and wrapped little, like, teethshaped things in, like, tin
foil. So it did have, like, somedetails to it, not that I--I was
just there and I think in pink,which, like, yeah, that face.
Harvey (03:11):
You're wearing pretty much all black right now, so
the--the idea of that isstrange.
Pen (03:16):
You know, Trevon and I went for a walk in a graveyard
recently, because they're nice.
Cemeteries are great places towalk most of the time.
Harvey (03:23):
They are pretty.
Pen (03:24):
And often they have walking paths and things. It's a thing
that people do. He didn't knowthat. He had no context for why
I wanted to take a walk in acemetery. But we--he went with
me anyway, 'cause he's likethat.
Harvey (03:35):
He's a good sport.
Pen (03:35):
Because he's great. But I was, you know, wearing all black
like I do most days. And he waslike, "Is the all black, like,
because of the cemetery?" And Iwas like, "Trevon, when was the
last time you saw me and Iwasn't wearing all black? And he
was like, "You know what? That'sa good point."
Harvey (03:49):
I'm just imagining Trevon's, like, surprised little
"Oh," like--like, you know, theone that he does?
Pen (03:54):
Yeah.
Harvey (03:54):
I'm imagining that one.
But before we keep talking aboutdeath, which probably won't be
that depressing, because we areboth relatively on the death
positive end of the spectrum--
Pen (04:05):
Though, we will be bringing up suicide, at least in terms of
being suicidal. Because, well--
Harvey (04:14):
Well, there's no way that won't affect our
relationship with death.
Pen (04:17):
But I don't think that this is going to be--I suppose it
depends on your perspective, butwe're not going into this
expecting it to be superdepressing.
Harvey (04:24):
Mm-mm. So, Pen.
Pen (04:25):
Yes.
Harvey (04:26):
Tell me...
Pen (04:27):
Yeah.
Harvey (04:27):
...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen (04:30):
Thank you!
Harvey (04:31):
You're welcome.
Pen (04:32):
Ah, well, it's--it's, um--I elistened to the last--last half
of Catching Fire, and then--andMocking--I listened to all of
Mockingjay in the Hunger Gamestrilogy.
Harvey (04:44):
Oh, okay.
Pen (04:44):
Which was, if nothing else, it was interesting. Like, I
really love that trilogy. I loveSuzanne Collins as a writer. I
got into her middle schoolseries, Gregor the Overlander,
when I was, you know, about thatage, and so it was nice to
revisit that and, like, I hadcome across some meta posts
about it. And so I got kind ofinto that, which, you know,
(05:04):
isn't necessarily like a Wahoo!moment, but it is, like, it's
always nice to go back andengage with things that I've
cared about for a while.
Harvey (05:12):
No, for sure.
Pen (05:13):
And sometimes, you know, it can be difficult to reread those
books because they are wickeddepressing, but in ways that I
think are very important.
Harvey (05:21):
For sure. I have to come up with something that isn't,
"Oh, I saw my boyfriend, andthat was nice." Because I do
that most of the time on theweekends that we record, which
really just seems like poorplanning on my part, but I did
see my boyfriend, which isalways nice. I'm trying to think
if there was anything notablethat happened in the past week.
Pen (05:46):
I got the first shot of my vaccine, I forgot about that.
I'm half Moderna'd.
Harvey (05:52):
And I'm going to get Pfizer--Pfizer tomorrow. I've
been--I've been playing a lot ofProject DIVA, which is
a--is--which is a--
Pen (06:03):
Yes, yes, yes!
Harvey (06:04):
Which is a rhythm game based on Vocaloid. I could
infodump about Vocaloid, but I'mnot going to.
Pen (06:11):
On this episode.
Harvey (06:12):
Not on this episode. But yeah, I'll call that my Wahoo!
Moment of the Week. I just--Ienjoy playing that game. It has
brought me joy.
Pen (06:22):
That's great. That's--I do want to clarify, this is like
when Harvey talks about Sonicthe Hedgehog. I don't know
anything about Vocaloids. Ilearned a lot about them
recently.
Harvey (06:33):
You know who Hatsune Miku is.
Pen (06:36):
I actually--it turns out I didn't know who Hatsuna Miku
was. I could recognize HatsuneMiku.
Harvey (06:42):
Well, that's what I mean.
Pen (06:43):
Yeah, yeah, I--but whenever I see Harvey playing Project
DIVA, or frankly, any videogame, I'm like, woo! Yes.
Harvey (06:51):
Typically, because the games I play are very colorful,
and that makes Pen happy.
Pen (06:54):
It's also because I'm supportive.
Harvey (06:56):
That--that, too. But you--
Pen (06:57):
A lot of them are, like, visual stims.
Harvey (06:59):
So you're like, ohh, like ,you like watching me play
Overwatch.
Pen (07:01):
Colors! They move!
Harvey (07:03):
They move so much.
Pen (07:04):
Who would have thunk?
Harvey (07:05):
Who'd'a thunk it? But let's a-thunk about death.
[Laughter] That was nothing.
Pen (07:11):
No, I liked it! I liked it.
That's going in the "featuring."Oh, great. Yeah, let's talk
about death.
Harvey (07:21):
I--so I mentioned, as we were introducing this episode,
that, like, we both--weboth--like, I consider myself
death positive. I don't know ifyou do.
Pen (07:31):
Oh, totally.
Harvey (07:32):
So it might be useful to explain what that means.
Pen (07:35):
Please do.
Harvey (07:36):
Hum, for me, like, I do want to say, like, that doesn't
necessarily mean that I don'thave a complicated relationship
with death. My relationship withdeath is rough. On my--like, on
my dad's side of the family, forexample, there's pretty much
nobody left except my dad, and,like, a distant uncle who I
(07:59):
never talk to. But he and my dadare close, so that's good. But
for me, like, I don't have adad's side of the family. Like,
I have my dad, and that's it.
And I love the guy dearly, butit's definitely complicated
that, like, I, you know, peopletalk about sides of their
families, and it's like, well, Ihave my mom's extended family,
and then I have my dad. So--sothat's troubling. I've also lost
(08:22):
several of my friends to suicideover the years, because we are
all mentally ill, and I amdeeply afraid of death, as
somebody with anxiety. So allthis to say, my relationship
with death personally actuallykind of sucks. But all of that
to say, like, I think thereis--when I say I'm death
(08:46):
positive, I mean that there isbeauty in death. I don't think
that it is something that weshould avoid talking about. I
think that it's important, youknow, all of those things. And
I'm also just--I'm reallyfascinated by the rituals of
death, particularly culturally.
Pen (09:05):
Yes.
Harvey (09:06):
So that's what I mean when I say I'm death positive,
not that I just go through life,and I'm like, "Ha, nothing
matters. I'm gonna die someday,and that's fine." No, I'm very
afraid of dying. But I thinkthat death is neat.
Pen (09:19):
Yeah.
Harvey (09:19):
Really.
Pen (09:20):
Not death positive as in, like, looking forward to it ,or
recommending it as a funactivity, but death positive as
in, the concept of death is nota negative thing.
Harvey (09:30):
Right.
Pen (09:31):
It is something to be conceptually, I think, embraced
in terms of, like, willingnessto understand it and to
recognize it as a part of ourlives.
Harvey (09:44):
Yeah.
Pen (09:45):
Fundamentally, because, you know, life
Harvey (09:50):
It does. There's a--unless you're like--like a
F'ed-up, like, bottom seacreature, some of those
who--that legitimately don'tdie. But that is--they don't
count.
Pen (10:00):
That's none of my business.
Harvey (10:02):
No, the ocean can stay where it is, and I don't need to
know anything about it.
Pen (10:06):
We are going--we--this is death in terms of humanity,
which is so much messier.
Harvey (10:11):
Yes.
Pen (10:13):
Yeah, yeah, I--let's see, when did I start thinking about
death? Well, I got really into,and I'm still not sure why, I
got interested in ancient Egyptand mythology when I was about
seven. I think it might havebeen that Egyptology book, which
I didn't realize at the time waswicked fake, but it was one of
(10:35):
those like, guidebook, whatever,things.
Harvey (10:38):
I mean, you were a kid.
Pen (10:39):
Yeah, no, totally. And I found the mythology really
interesting, because, well, Imean, mythology, is--it's
stories, and who doesn't likestories as a kid? Especially
someone who was obsessive inreading?
Harvey (10:51):
Yeah, mythology is super cool.
Pen (10:52):
Yeah. And I also got into Greek mythology, which doesn't
count, because that's--
Harvey (10:57):
Because you're gay.
Pen (10:58):
No--well, because it's such a common interest. But yeah, I
am queer, which means I was--
Harvey (11:03):
Sorry, yes, you're queer.
Pen (11:05):
Uh-huh. No, it's all good, it's good. Yes. So that was when
I started, you know, having somekind of relationship with death
and thoughts, because a lot ofancient Egyptian mythology and
culture revolved around death,which--and it was in a very
death positive kind of way.Deathwasn't something that they,
(11:25):
like, shied away from as aconcept, in part because life
was pretty good. Thank you, theNile River. And so it was, like,
a continuation of that, and allof the rituals surrounding it.
It's very compelling anddetailed enough to be
interesting, even--even as akid. So that was, I think, where
(11:47):
it started, but where it really,like, crystallized in terms of
an existential thing for me waswhen I was--the summer, that I
turned 15.
Harvey (12:01):
Would've been, what, 2013?
Pen (12:03):
I think so, yeah. I believe it was then that I had an
existential crisis foressentially the entire summer.
Harvey (12:11):
Right. You mention this to me often.
Pen (12:13):
It was like--a lot of it was rooted in being wicked
depressed.
Harvey (12:18):
That'll do it.
Pen (12:19):
But sometimes I would talk about death with my therapist,
Charlie. And--
Harvey (12:23):
Tummy man!
Pen (12:23):
Yes! He gave me two books.
He gave me Man's Search forMeaning, and he gave me On Death
and Dying, and I never actuallyread On Death and Dying, which
is kind of a shame. But Man'sSearch for Meaning included,
like, a lot on on death andthings. And so that was
something I started thinkingabout. I think I read Smoke Gets
in Your Eyes and Other Lessonsfrom the Crematory by Caitlin...
Harvey (12:42):
Doughty.
Pen (12:43):
Doughty Thank you. I never remember.
Harvey (12:47):
We both love Caitlin Doughty.
If--I don't think sheever will, but if Caitlin
Pen (12:48):
We do, we do. We both rea Smoke Gets in Your Eyes.
Doughty ever listens to thispodcast, and particularly this
episode, I think I might die onthe spot, just from being
starstruck.
That's funny.
Harvey (13:03):
Oh! I just noticed the irony of me that.
Pen (13:07):
No, I loved it, and it was a great introduction into, you
know, thinking about death morephilosophically, particularly in
terms of, like, culturesurrounding it. And yeah, it
was--oh, no, I think it was thesummer I turned 16. Anyway,
that's not the important part.
Fifteen? Nope, no brains. Nobrains. Yeah, it was--it wasn't
an inherently positiveexperience, but it was also,
(13:30):
like, sitting in existentialthings is something that I am
very able to do, and I thinkthat's--that is part of where it
started, or where it, like, justbecame a thing for me. And it
was when I started thinkingabout, like, death in society,
and how much we talked about it,which is to say, how much we
don't talk about it. And a lotof that is just, you know, the
(13:54):
thesis of Smoke Gets in YourEyes.
Harvey (13:56):
Right.
Pen (13:58):
But--and then I started thinking about it kind of a lot
in terms of being at leastpassively suicidal for at least
two years. But I was alsodepressed, so whether or not it
was--like, that was when I wasconsistent, and every day.
Harvey (14:16):
Right.
Pen (14:16):
Eh, yeah. So you know, you think about it.
Harvey (14:20):
And you know, I know that I've been--like, we were
talking before the podcast. Idon't know what brought this on,
because again, I don't remembermy childhood, but I've been
interested in death, probablysince I was five or so. I was
literally the Grim Reaper forHalloween when I was five, and
then the three years beforethat, I was a ladybug. But all
of that to say, like,I--the--like, death has been a
(14:42):
long standing interest of mine.
And definitely, some of that isinfluenced by the fact that I
have been, in one way oranother, suicidal since I was
12. I describe myself nowadaysas sort of functionally
suicidal. Typically somethingwill bring on suicidal ideation.
Like, if I'm inconvenienced, orif something really upsetting
(15:06):
happens, I'm like, "I shouldjust kill myself." But, you
know, it's--it's--it feels--avery different place than I was
when I was a teen, because Iwould think about it, and there
was a point at which I actuallyattempted suicide, and failed,
because thankfully, I didn'tknow the dosage of what I took.
Pen (15:26):
That's good.
Harvey (15:27):
Yeah, that's for--that's for the best. And it's like, I'm
not going to get into specificsabout what I took, or how much,
but I'm gonna say it was areasonable amount to take for a
headache.
Pen (15:37):
Oh, I'm so glad that you didn't know.
Harvey (15:39):
I'm so glad that I was a stupid 12 year old. But all of
that to say, death has been moreor less a constant in my brain
since I was 12, just becauseI've been so consistently
suicidal to varying degrees.
Like, I'm sitting here rightnow, and I don't feel like
killing myself. But--
Pen (15:56):
Nice!
Harvey (15:57):
There's that--thank you.
There is that knowledge that, inthe back of my head, it's there.
And there's a part of me that'sthinking about it sometimes. So
that has meant that I've thoughtabout it and my feelings on it.
And well, would I really want todie? And thinking about well,
what's going to happen when Idie? What--like, you know,
(16:17):
the--like, because I'm not I'mnot particularly religious. I
was--I was raised religious, butI'm--I don't really believe in
anything, at least right now. Soas it stands, I don't believe
that anything happens when wedie. And trying to wrap my head
around that is literallyimpossible. I can't just imagine
(16:38):
nothing.
Pen (16:42):
Like, yes, you're right.
Literally, the human braincan't.
Harvey (16:45):
It's just antithetical, like--so, I think that's
probably where it started myphilosophical thinking on death,
where I just was suicidal for solong that when I started getting
better, it was like, well, I'mstill thinking about death,
because I've been thinking aboutit for you know, at this point,
five years, you know, I was 17,probably when I started thinking
(17:05):
about it philosophically. So Iwas like, huh. And then I
stumbled across Smoke Gets inYour Eyes and Caitlin Doughty's
YouTube channel, and, well, hereI am now.
Pen (17:15):
It's a great, great book--
Harvey (17:17):
Oh, yes. Very good.
Pen (17:17):
--Smoke Gets in Your Eyes.
It is heavy. There are a lot ofheavy parts of it because she
speaks so frankly about it. Ithink it's very important, and
it's a very good read. It's nota great read for if you are
currently very depressed.
Harvey (17:28):
If you're currently suicidal, don't read it. Just,
I'm just going to bestraightforward.
Pen (17:32):
Like, a heavy preoccupation on death is not a great thing to
introduce if you are alreadyheavily preoccupied with death.
Harvey (17:42):
Yes.
Pen (17:43):
Especially because she also speaks about her own experiences
with, like, mental illness,and--and things related to
death, which are fascinating andcan be great. Not if you're
there.
Harvey (17:54):
No.
Pen (17:55):
Probably.
Harvey (17:55):
No.
Pen (17:56):
Like, y'all know yourselves best. Just be aware.
Harvey (18:00):
You know, this wasn't something that we talked about
discussing on the episode, butthis is actually reminding me,
probably about a month ago, Igot interested in the idea of
assisted suicide for terminallyill folks.
Pen (18:14):
Oh, I didn't know.
Harvey (18:15):
Yeah, it was--it was something that I very much on my
own. I was--I got reallyinterested in assisted suicide,
and also palliative care.
Pen (18:24):
I remember you bringing up being interested in palliative
care.
Harvey (18:26):
And--and for those of you who don't know, Palliative
care is the kind of medical carewe offer to folks who are
terminally ill. It's--it's aboutmaking them comfortable. It's
end of life, hospice, that sortof thing. Really just trying to
ensure quality of life at theend of life. And I remember
coming across thisdocumentary--or not--like--like
(18:47):
a short, yeah, I will say adocumentary, like, a short,
20-minute documentary about awoman, I think, from Belgium.
Belgium, possibly? One of thoseWestern, like, Germanic European
countries, who had really severedepression, who had been
(19:08):
depressed for years, and years,and years, and it was severe,
and it wasn't letting up. Andshe lived in one of the very few
countries that did offerassisted suicide for mental
health.
Pen (19:18):
I've never heard of that before.
Harvey (19:19):
It's extraordinarily rare, but the philosophy was
fascinating, because, you know,they needed, like, three
clinicians to sign off on thisbecause it's such a--just a
touchy and, you know, like, kindof messy subject. And the
philosophy that the--like, Idon't know how I feel about this
(19:41):
necessarily, but I do think it'sat least an intriguing idea to
engage with, and the philosophyof one of the doctors was, well,
much like physical suffering,you know, this woman is in an
unimaginable amount of justunrelenting pain, and her
depression is resistant to anykind of treatment. She isn't
getting better. So much likephysical illness, I don't know
(20:04):
why we should force her to keepliving if she's in a same level
of pain. And even with me beingmentally ill, and recognizing
that mental illness affects mein a very similar way that some
of my physical illnesses do,that was still, like, kind of a
shock to my system. And it'slike, well--well, how could you
say that? Surely there'ssomething they could do. But
maybe there isn't. Which wasjust--what you said reminded me
(20:29):
of that. So it was just sort ofintriguing to consider like,
huh. And she did go through withit. She initially, like, when it
was her day to end her life, shebacked out. And then two years
later, she decided to go throughwith it.
Pen (20:47):
I think that is a particularly telling aspect.
Because that doesn't surpriseme, that there would be the
backing out in the moment, and Ithink that's what people tend to
expect--
Harvey (20:55):
Yeah.
Pen (20:56):
--when it comes to suicide in particular, like, that
moment, right before. Butit's--I had never heard of that,
and I do think that that's veryinteresting. And typically, I am
against things where you need tohave, like, multiple letters and
things from clinicians, becauseit's just hoops to jump through.
Harvey (21:14):
But I think in the case of assisted suicide for
depression--
Pen (21:17):
I think that's very different. Exactly. Like, I'm
currently starting the processof jumping through some hoops,
because I'm trans and insurancecompanies won't let me be trans.
That's very, very differentthan, like, this decision is
genuinely so hugely impactful,and something that--like, one of
(21:37):
the requirements for getting topsurgery, which is what I'm
trying to jump through hoops todo--
Harvey (21:41):
Which I'm also trying to do. Going through the same
surgeon.
Pen (21:46):
--which is essentially like being of sound mind.
Harvey (21:48):
Yeah.
Pen (21:49):
Which, like, that is inherently what is being
questioned in this. And I thinkthat that's very interesting,
and I do think that there issomething to be said there in
terms of, like, why are weforcing people to continue when
they are in incredible pain? Andalso, I think, like, is that our
right to do? Like, who--whoholds the right over someone's
(22:14):
life? Is it them? And if itisn't, or if it is, when do
those circumstances change?
Harvey (22:22):
Yeah. And it's--it's a real conundrum to think through,
I think.
Pen (22:28):
Oh, yeah. I don't think that there are any simple
answers to those questions.
Harvey (22:32):
No, it is deeply, deeply complicated. But, y'know, I've
been--pretty much ever since Iwatched that documentary, I've
been thinking about it just sortof in the back of my head, like,
what do I think about this? Notthat it's really my place to
make a decision, but it's stilllike, it's--it's, like, an
interesting philosophical...
Pen (22:50):
Yeah. If nothing else, like, it's, I think it's worth
thinking about. Worth--worthchewing on. It's--
Harvey (22:57):
And, you know, like, despite having never known this
woman, and you know, like, shedied back in, I think, 2018, I
found myself grieving her,actually, for reasons that I
can't explain. My nearest guessis that, like, I think I felt
some level of connection.
Pen (23:18):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:18):
Like, clearly, my--my depression is not that severe,
considering like, I my--mydepression is manageable enough
to where I actively want tocontinue to live.
Pen (23:27):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:28):
And she was in pretty much the exact opposite position
where it's like, "I activelywant to die because I'm in so
much pain."
Pen (23:33):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:34):
But I think there was that level of kinship of just
sort of the experience ofdepression.
Pen (23:39):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:40):
So, like, even though, like, at the end of the day, I'm
glad that she's at peace, like,there's a part of me that's
like, man. That's--it'sjust--it's just such a strange
thing to think through.
Pen (23:52):
And I think that that relates to one of the things
that we were going to talkabout, which is the complexities
of grief, and you had some veryinteresting thoughts, I think,
on that,
Harvey (24:01):
When I was talking with Pen in the car, I mentioned
that, for one reason oranother--that I still haven't
been able to pin down--but thekind of grief that I experience
when someone close to me dies isvery similar to the kind of
grief that I experience whensomeone I loved is just out of
(24:23):
my life. And the way that Iexplained it is, you know, when
somebody dies, and I grieve thatperson, it's not that I grieve
the fact that they are dead.
Cognitively, I'm, like, you'velived your life. You were likely
in pain before the end, so I'mglad that you at rest, I'm glad
that you were able to enjoy yourlife, ostensibly. And--but
(24:43):
it's--it's the fact that they'regone. Like my grandmother, she
passed away in the--eh--she diedin the beginning of 2020. I
think it was January 3rd ofJanuary 4th, so she never knew
COVID-19, which is somethingelse.
Pen (25:02):
Yeah, oh, God. Wow.
Harvey (25:04):
Yeah. But in any case, like, I still grieve her, and I
still miss her. But it's--it'snot the fact that she passed. I
sobbed when I saw her dead body.
Pen (25:17):
That makes sense.
Harvey (25:17):
But it was--it was not so much the fact that I was
seeing a dead body and knowingthat, like, this is the--my
grandmother was cremated, thatwas the last time I would ever
see her. The last interaction Ihad with her was the last
interaction I was ever going tohave. The last thing she ever
heard me say, and she's nevergoing to be in my life anymore.
(25:40):
And that is the tricky part. Andsimilarly, I don't think he
uses--I don't think he listensto this podcast, so I'll use his
name. There was a--there was aguy I fell in love with very
quickly, at the end of 2019,beginning of 2020, named Louis.
We dated for a very short periodof time, it was like a month and
(26:01):
a half. But the problem with meis that I'm a hopeless romantic,
and I fall in love easily. Ilove easily romantically,
platonically, what have you. Andwithout getting into specifics,
because I don't think that'sreally my thing to share on such
a public forum, the waythat--that relationship ended
(26:22):
was messy with, you know, like,some--some, I still think, like,
some pretty significant mistakeson my part. But, you know, the
opinion of my friends differs.
In any case--
Pen (26:36):
If nothing else, is a very complex situation.
Harvey (26:39):
Yeah. And in any case, I grieve him in much the same way
that I grieve my grandmother. Ofcourse, it feels different
because he was a romanticpartner, and I also know that
he's still alive. But like, I dohave that acute awareness that
he will almost certainly neverbe in my life again. And that
(27:02):
hurts. And it is painful,because I thought that he was a
wonderful person. And the lastinteraction I have--I had with
him, which was pretty bad, Iknow, is probably going to be my
last. And yeah, so that's thething. Like, in my mind, it
(27:25):
seems that folks separate thegrief that--like, first of all,
it seems like the folksseparate--sorry. It seems like
folks don't recognize that,like, just not having someone in
your life anymore if theyhaven't died can be a source of
grief.
Pen (27:40):
Yes.
Harvey (27:40):
And when they do, they--I think they posit that
grief as something inherentlyseparate from death, but I don't
think that's true.
Pen (27:47):
And I think, often, as inherently lesser.
Harvey (27:50):
Yes.
Pen (27:50):
That there is like, Grief, capital G, and it's the one
related to death, and it's thebig one. And then there is like
grief in all other aspects justisn't as severe because "it's
not like they're dead."
Harvey (28:02):
"It's not like they're dead. Like, they could come
back," and it's like, okay,butare they gonna?
Pen (28:05):
Yeah, and it's--I think the way you were talking about it, I
think, speaks a lot to, like,the distinction between being
sad because someone is deadversus being sad--that's because
someone is gone. And also, like,let's stop--here's--here's my
take, let's stop with theeuphemisms for death because
like saying "Gone" when you mean"Dead," also, like, I think
(28:26):
contributes to that, like,lessening of the perception of
grief for people who areliterally just, like, genuinely
gone from your life. Not dead,just gone.
Harvey (28:36):
Like Louis, as far as I know, unless something
catastrophic happened, like,he's still alive, but he's gone.
Like, I'm probably never goingto talk to him again.
Pen (28:43):
But the distinction between being sad because someone is
dead versus being sad, becausesomeone is gone, I think, speaks
to, like, being able to be deathpositive, while still, you know,
having a painful and complexrelationship with death itself.
Like, it's not that someone hasdied that is scary and sad. That
part is just true. And that partis, sure, like, there's--there
(29:05):
are emotions attached to it, butthat versus the person themself
being gone. These are separatethings. They are connected,
inherently, they areintertwined. But I think that
there is a lot there.
Harvey (29:19):
Yeah.
Pen (29:23):
Yeah, it's, gosh, there are so many things that we could go
into, and that perhaps wewill--we will in the future,
certain ones, I know, I broughtup the idea of possibly doing an
episode that's more historicallybased for things like how--one
of the reasons that mentally illpeople, and neurodivergent
people generally, but I specifymentally ill In this episode,
(29:46):
because my ADHD does not make mesuicidal.
Harvey (29:49):
Right. And neither does my autism.
Pen (29:51):
Yeah, like, these are--these are distinct. Like,
mental illness in terms ofthings that cause us to suffer.
That's why people get suicidal.
This is a symptom of a largerproblem.
Harvey (30:02):
It's often not really a matter of, like, actively
wanting to die, and more amatter of not wanting to be in
pain.
Pen (30:11):
Yes. Which is a very, very important distinction to draw
that not everyone does. But it'ssomething that, you know, we
think about regularly because weare mentally ill, and we think
about suicide because we're inpain. And then it's also
something that has been done tous. Asylums and institutions
where neurodivergent people,more broadly, because in any way
(30:34):
that you were divergent fromwhat was expected, you could be
in an asylum. Also, just forbeing AFAB. You could just be in
an asylum.
Harvey (30:45):
Like, God forbid if you had desire.
Pen (30:48):
Yeah, like literally just sometimes, like having sexual
desire, and also a vagina waslike, lock them up. And that's
not a joke.
Harvey (30:57):
That's what hysteria is.
Pen (30:59):
Yeah. It's--mm.
Harvey (30:59):
It's based on Freudian psychology. Anyway...
Pen (31:03):
And Freud was a--was a--
Harvey (31:05):
Bite, bite, violence.
Pen (31:07):
Bite, bite, violence. But, like, the "treatments"
administered killed patients.
Electroshock therapy, for one.
And the way that patients weretreated, even in death, like I
brought up potters'--pottersfields or paupers' grave
, depending on, I think, like,the region you're from, which
are graves that are--th--the gravestones aren't u
(31:29):
marked, exactly, it's just thatthey're only numbers. And one o
the reasons, like, they're caled paupers' graves beca
se sometimes it was just, ifyou were poor, and no one c
uld afford a better burial spotfor you, you would be burie
in these fields. But sometimeit was also, like, an asylum
would just bury their patiets in these graves that did no
mark their names or anything rlated to that, because they w
(31:52):
ren't really being treated entirly as human b
Harvey (31:55):
And here's the thing, I don't necessarily believe that
the modern way that we bury ourdead, or really take care of our
dead, is good.
Pen (32:06):
No.
Harvey (32:06):
The way that we bury people is not great. And even
cremation is complex.
Pen (32:11):
Particularly, I think, in the United States is where we
reach a lot of these issues.
Harvey (32:15):
And yeah, something to keep in mind through every
episode that you listen is thatwe're talking from the
positionality of the UnitedStates.
Pen (32:21):
Yes.
Harvey (32:22):
But all of that to say, given that--regardless of my
feelings on how burial and thefuneral industry is--given the
cultural significance of burial,and having a marked grave and
being remembered, to be deniedthat is a problem.
Pen (32:40):
That is--like, that is the piece of it. Our ritual
surrounding death as a countryare functionally nonexistent.
Harvey (32:47):
They're bad.
Pen (32:47):
We're--it breaks us. It removes us from our own lives in
some ways. I think part of thereason that seeing the bodies of
our loved ones, which--Ihave--I've never been to--I've
been to a wake only a coupletimes, one for a relative who,
I'm going to be real, I don'tremember who it was. It was part
(33:10):
of my mom's extended family andmeant nothing to me. But I did
sure have to be there, which isan unfortunate situation to be
in, where everyone's, like,really sad, and you have no
idea, like...
Harvey (33:20):
Who this person is.
Pen (33:21):
You're like, "Okay..." And then, um...
Harvey (33:23):
Well, I am sorry, but--
Pen (33:25):
Yeah, like, ooh, and I was also, like, a kid, so I was like
okay, what do I do? That wasactually around the time The
Hunger Games came out, because Italked to one of my cousins
about the movie.
Harvey (33:38):
Good lord.
Pen (33:40):
So that's sort of funny.
Um, but yeah. And then there wasa wake for a girl who I'd been
very close friends with when Iwas very, very young, when I
was, like, five. She was my nextdoor neighbor. And then she
moved, and we were less close.
She was in the grade above me.
And when we were in high school,she got leukemia...
Harvey (34:00):
Oh, wow.
Pen (34:00):
...which eventually killed her. And I was at her wake. I
did not see the body. We did notstay long, because we hadn't
been close in quite some time.
And so I have never--I've neverhad the experience of seeing a
loved one's body. But from whatI've heard from pretty much
everyone I've talked to whois--particularly bodies that
have been embalmed and, wheneverthey have touched the body,
(34:24):
because that's the thing thatpeople do at the wake sometimes,
they'll like, you know, one lasttime seeing them or touching
them. Their responses, prettyuniversally, "It was horrible. I
wish I hadn't done it thatwas--that wasn't them," is what
I've heard a lot.
Harvey (34:38):
You know, my experience was actually quite different.
Pen (34:40):
Hmm.
Harvey (34:41):
My--my grandmother, who is, as far as I can remember,
like, I think I've seen otherdead bodies, but her dead body
is the only body that I rememberseeing, and she was cremated, so
I saw her before anythinghappened. I actually--I still
remember the morning. I hadgotten up, probably around 9 or
10, and I was going to thebathroom and I heard my dad on
(35:06):
the phone, and just throughcontext clues, I could figure
out what he was saying, that shehad passed--or that she had
died. So after I finished usingthe restroom, we drove about
half an hour to the--to thehospice center that she was
staying at. And they werepreparing her body, just so
(35:29):
that, like, you know, itdidn't--like, I think they wiped
away, like, some fluids, becausethat happens when people die.
And we walked into the room, andshe had died probably two hours
before. So likely--I don't knowif rigor mortis would have set
in at that point. I didn't touchher. But we walked in the blinds
(35:51):
were open, the lights were off,and she was laying on her back
with her head up, eyes closed,mouth slightly agape, her hands
crossed across her chest. Andthere were flower petals that
the nurses--that the nursesplaced on her sheets.
Pen (36:14):
Oh.
Harvey (36:14):
And when I think about that gesture, it still gets me
really emotional becausemy--more or less, my grandmother
died of cancer. She developedstage four oral cancer. She had
her entire lower jaw removed.
And she lived for years afterthat. She lived for three years
(36:39):
after that. But the cancer cameback. She was in remission for a
few years, the cancer came back.
She had already been through thesurgery, and she was too weak to
do more. There was nothing thatcould be done. And it was the
most at peace that I had everseen her in years. And that's,
(37:04):
for me, that's where the beautyin death lies.
Pen (37:07):
Yeah. That's--
Harvey (37:08):
Even though I'm, like, literally crying, I think for
the first time on this podcast,she was still.
Pen (37:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:17):
And she was--and she was at peace. And her surroundings
were just beautiful and serene.
And I think--I think that wasthe--I think that was the day
that I started to stop beingafraid to die.
Pen (37:41):
That's--that's a really--I'm glad that you had
that experience. And I thinkthat that also speaks pretty
directly to, like--the timesthat I've--I've heard people
talk about being upsetwith--with what they saw have
been times where they were at awake, and the body was
embalmbed, and the way thatbodies look when they've been
(38:05):
embalmed and prepared by thefuneral industry is, frankly,
they just look unnatural becausethey are.
Harvey (38:11):
Yeah, I mean, you've--you've pumped that body
with chemicals so that they looksome more alive.
Pen (38:16):
And then the preparations done to a body in those
scenarios are very differentthan the preparations that were
taken by the, I assume,nurses...
Harvey (38:26):
Nurses, yes.
Pen (38:26):
...at the at the hospice, which honestly like that sounds
rather lovely in, like--flowerpetals. That's just a--it's a
very nice--I like that.
Harvey (38:39):
It was a--it was a gorgeous gesture. And it was, I
think, the most--like my friendswho killed themselves, they were
all long distance, so I nevergot to go to their funerals. I
never really got to properlygrieve. That was a particularly
salient experience for me,because it was me and my dad
(39:03):
alone in this hospice room withmy dead grandmother, just there.
And I'm like sobbing and mydad's just kind of hugging me to
his side. And I think that wasthe most directly I was ever
able to grieve someone. Youknow?
Pen (39:23):
I'm glad that you had that.
Harvey (39:25):
Yeah. Anyway, I don't mean to take up this podcast
with stories about my deadgrandma.
Pen (39:29):
That's a very important thing. And I think
that--that--that is one of thethings that I wanted to talk
about in this, is like, ourrelationship with death, and how
we grieve, and if we get togrieve, truly. And--there's a
quote, and I'm going to probablymisquote it a little bit,
(39:49):
because I don't have the book infront of me, so I can't, like,
post it, but...
Harvey (39:53):
You'll get the essence, I'm sure.
Pen (39:54):
Yes. From Smoke Gets in Your Eyes by Caitlin Doughty.
Doughty?
Harvey (39:59):
Doughty, yes.
Pen (39:59):
Yeah, of--one of the important parts of the book is
her talking about her traumaticexperience in her childhood that
led to her preoccupation withdeath. And she talked about how
And when we are, it's in thisvery, like, somewhat contrived,
things might have been--thinkingon how things might have been
different if she had beenintroduced to death as a child,
which we don't do. And we shoulddo. As she also says, in the
(40:23):
book, like, 100 years ago, woulbe unheard of for a child t
have never seen a dead body. Anthat's--that's part of why it'
so scary for us is because we'rnever around death
and, like, controlled setting.
So we really just don't see thereality of death.
Exactly. And--but she saidsomething to the effect of,
(40:48):
"thinking about how it mighthave been different if I had
been introduced to death as achild, and been made to shake
his hand, and know that he wasgoing to be a part of--was going
to be there throughout all of mylife, waiting." Something to
that effect. And it was the sortof impossibly connected thing.
Harvey (41:13):
Yeah.
Pen (41:14):
I heard that, and it took me back to a time when I must
have been, like, I don't know,maybe eight, fairly young.
Harvey (41:21):
I remember you telling me this.
Pen (41:22):
Yes. My mom is a teacher.
She's a science teacher. And soher classroom is--she's,like,
biology based. So in herclassroom, growing up
was--oftentimes, there was askeleton, because, you know, she
taught anatomy and physiology.
So there was a skeleton, andthere was a real one. And, you
know, I was fairly young andnot--not around death much. And
(41:47):
so I saw the skeleton, and atfirst, I was kind of scared of
it. I was especially a veryanxious child. And so, if the
skeleton was gonna keep beingaround, I needed to figure out a
way to deal with that. And Idecided the best way to stop
being scared of the skeletonwould be to make friends. And so
(42:08):
one day, and regularly forlittle while, so I could ge
used to it, I went to thskeleton, and I picked up th
arm, and I shook its hand. Andthink that is where some of m
ability to be more comfortabland less afraid of death and
the remains of death started inmy mother's classroom. Not just
(42:32):
shaking the hands with askeleton, but there were skulls
there as well. She had some jarsof preserved animals. She would
regularly be cleaning pans frodissections. That was som
thing that I was introduced tos just--not only a part of li
e, but a part of the world as ahole, like, sometimes you just c
me across the remains of dead flks, and it's fine.
Harvey (42:59):
Yeah, like it doesn't necessarily have to be this
traumatic and spooky thing. It'sokay if it is, especially if you
experienced a disaster, muchlike, you know, Caitlin Doughty
did.
Pen (43:09):
Yes.
Harvey (43:11):
It's a lot of the time, I think, trauma comes less from
death itself and more from thecircumstances.
Pen (43:16):
Yes.
Harvey (43:19):
So, yeah, no, I was hoping you would bring that up.
Pen (43:22):
Yeah. It's--and I think that that is--that is a real
thing is trying to find comfort,and being able to find comfort
in, like, I shook hands with askeleton, and--
Harvey (43:38):
Who used to inhabit a body.
Pen (43:40):
Yeah.
Harvey (43:40):
That was a person.
Pen (43:41):
And then I was less scared.
And that was such a rare thingfor me, too, when I was young,
particularly. To be less scared,to be able to find a way to be
comfortable in something. Like,I was anxious--anxiety-ridden.
And so to find some more comfortin this thing, and to like,
also, like, part of the reasonthat I like taking walks in
cemeteries is because my mom hasalways done that. And, like,
(44:01):
being able to be around death,and the remnants of death, and
places where people grieve, andwhere people are buried, and to
find peace in that, is somethingI'm very grateful that I have
learned how to do. Andsometimes, when I'm not doing
well on my own, and I'm in apretty rough or depressive spot,
(44:25):
which I've been in recently, andwas definitely in when I went
for that walk with Trevon, beingaround these things, these--
eing around graves and thingscan bring me so much peace,
because it is something that isinherently sort of bigger than
me, but not impossible. Like,there is--like, I feel very
(44:50):
serious, and also, in some ways,very calm around things like
that. And there's a lot of--ofwonder and beauty and walking
around a graveyard, and readingthe names, and giving a sense of
remembrance. You know what itis? It's a ritual. There's a
ritual feeling to it, and thatis where the peace comes from,
(45:11):
because rituals are so importantfor us as human beings, and we
lack them so much, not just indeath, in the US today. And--
Harvey (45:25):
The US has practically, like, no cohesive culture. There
are certain things that I thinkare hallmarks of the United
States. Think right-leaningpolitics, no matter what party
you're in, and--
Pen (45:39):
Baseball.
Harvey (45:40):
Ba--John Madden, John Madden, John Madden, Football!
Pen (45:44):
That's Football!
Harvey (45:46):
I know, but, I mean, as someone living in the United
States, like, I don't feelconnected to an American
culture.
Pen (45:55):
And that's--that is usually problematic for us as--as just
human beings, not problematic,like, cancel culture.
Problematic, like, our function.
Harvey (46:02):
Like human beings rely on group dynamics, on culture,
on a sense of identity. And Ithink there is a crisis that
we're experiencing in the UnitedStates where we... like, that's
not happening.
Pen (46:17):
And I think particularly white people in the United
States have just a complete lackof cultural identity for the
most part, unless there is aanother facet of life, or of
culture, or ethnicity, thatsomeone can connect to that,
like--you know, when you arenative-born to a country,
(46:39):
there's often establishedrituals based there. And that
gets very, very complicated interms of colonialism, and how
that erases native culture andritual.
Harvey (46:48):
Of course.
Pen (46:49):
And this is not me saying, "Oh, poor white people," but
legitimately, we lack a cohesiveculture. And culture is very,
very good for human beings. Thisis something I actually have an
ability to speak on as acommunication studies major. In
terms of, like, ritualcommunication, which is
essentially communication thatwe are doing not to transmit or
receive new information. Like,ritual versus transmission
(47:11):
theories of communication, orjust, like, types. Transmission,
as you know, like a newspaper.
We're receiving news, we arelearning something, or sending
out information. Ritualcommunication, we're talking
about things we alreadyunderstand. Church is a good
example. You're not learninganything new. It's the
same--they've had the book for avery, very long time,
Harvey (47:33):
The bread of God is bread, bread is God is bread.
Pen (47:38):
Or talking to your friends after school about things that
happened at school. You're notlearning new information. Memes,
as a whole. But you are sharing,still, a communication with each
other. You are reinforcing yourbond and mutual understanding.
And that is so important, and sogood for us. And a lot of that
(47:59):
can come from understoodcultural rituals. And if we're
going to understand something ascomplex as death, cultural
rituals surrounding it are ahuge aspect of how to find peace
in it, and we have not had thatfor a very long time, since
about the Civil War. And eventhen, it was lacking in a lot of
the rich culture andestablished, meaningful rituals.
Harvey (48:24):
Right. We should start wrapping up.
Pen (48:27):
We should start wrapping up. Clearly, I have things on
that.
Harvey (48:31):
Yes. So Pen, any closing thoughts about death, or dying,
or both?
Pen (48:38):
It's hard, and that's okay.
Thinking about it as hard. Andthat's all right. And if this
episode has been uncomfortable,for you, as a person just
listening to it, that's okay,and that's natural. And I think
that there's a lot to learn, anda lot of opportunities to grow,
and to feel more comfortable inyourself when you consider it
(48:59):
from a perspective that is notjust frightening and alien. One
of the ways that I've been ableto ground myself and to feel
better during depressiveepisodes is thinking on death
and the reality of it. And thatoften leads me to thinking about
my life, and that I'm living it,and that that is a choice that
(49:21):
I'm making, too. And maybe thisepisode hasn't been our most
coherent, but...
Harvey (49:29):
Certainly not.
Pen (49:30):
No, but there is--we do not need to be afraid and our
feelings get to be our feelings.
Your grief is real, regardlessof the context of it, and it's
okay to let yourself just feel.
Harvey (49:53):
Yeah.
Pen (49:54):
Harvey, do you have anything that you would like to
say?
Harvey (50:03):
To--to Amy, and Aidyn, and Jonas, and Grandma Carol.
You're gone. But are you,really? There's a part of you
that's going to stick with mefor the rest of my life. And I'm
grateful for that. So anyway,stick around for just a few more
(50:24):
minutes, we'll tell you a littlebit more about how this podcast
is run and our Patreon.
Beyond Introspection is anindependently-run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atByndPodcast or you can email us
at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com.
That's beyond d-o-t podcast, nospaces. We publish on
(50:46):
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description.
Pen (50:57):
We also have a Patreon. You can find us at
patreon.com/beyondintrospection.
That's all one word. We alsohave links to it on our site and
on our social media. Our podcastis entirely independent, so we
pay for hosting fees andtranscript service subscriptions
out of pocket. This is a passionproject that we're really happy
to do, and any support you'reable to give us would really
make a difference. On our
P (51:17):
$2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers;
$5 which will give you access tobonus episodes that will make in
the future, on topics like howangry we are Freud, our
frustrations with our respectivefields of studies and even guest
episodes; $10 will get you adirect line and priority access
to request episode topics andnew bonus content; and $15,
(51:38):
which will give you access tomonthly AMAs--that's ask me
anything for those who don'tknow--where we can answer
questions ranging from thepodcast process and we figure
out what to record, more indepth questions about our
neurodivergences, and more. Allof those tiers will include
benefits from lower tiers ofcourse. And also just to note,
unlike our regular episodes,Patreon bonus content is likely
(51:59):
to include swearing, so ifthat's not your vibe, please
know that ahead of time. We'dalso love it if you're able to
share this podcast with peopleyou know. Our only advertising
is word of mouth and we want toreach as many people as
possible.
Harvey (52:13):
Got feedback for us?
Want to request an episodetopic? Just feel like saying
hello? Feel free to reach out onsocial media, or via email. We'd
love to hear from everyone. Takecare of yourselves.
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