April 11, 2022 • 60 mins
Harvey and Pen discuss what it's like to mask symptoms of mental illness and neurodivergence, why people do it, and possible benefits and drawbacks.
Warning for some discussion of intense depression and references to self-harm.
Featuring: Pen got cut open; What actually is masking?; Yikes, depression can get bad; No but for real, Harvey's autistic; Does It Serve You?; Sometimes you're different and you don't feel like dealing with it; You can't actually know what's going on in someone else's head, I promise; And ill-advised X-Men reference
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pen (00:12):
Hello everybody, and welcome to Beyond Introspection:
A podcast about mental health,neurodivergence, and how it
impacts literally every aspectof your life.
Harvey (00:20):
All of them.
Pen (00:21):
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:21):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:22):
And we're sorry about the delay.
Harvey (00:25):
We're back from the dead!
Pen (00:26):
We're back from... Harvey's back from the dead, and I'm back
from surgery.
Harvey (00:30):
I went to Hell and came back.
Pen (00:32):
I went to the University of Illinois Hospital and came back.
Harvey (00:37):
You did! Do you want to share why?
Pen (00:38):
Yeah, I got top surgery.
Harvey (00:40):
Woo!
Pen (00:40):
Yeah.
Harvey (00:41):
Yay!
Pen (00:41):
My chest is - is flat now, and I have incisions in it.
Stitches, even.
Harvey (00:45):
Wow. Do you have the internal ones that are going to
dissolve?
Pen (00:48):
Yeah, I think that they have dissolved, or are at least
working on it, ecause there's,like, that weird feeling.
Harvey (00:52):
Right, the popping.
Pen (00:53):
Yeah, like the - ooh... - nurse said like - like kind of a
snap, crackle, pop on theinside, and like, it's not
inaccurate, but...
Horrid.
It's weird, like... [popping]
Harvey (01:05):
Doesn't mean that you have to like it.
Pen (01:06):
No. But it's kind of stopped now, so I think that
they have dissolved.
Harvey (01:10):
That is good. Congrats on the top surgery, Pen!
Pen (01:13):
Yeah, yeah. I wasn't super up for recording during our
usual weekend, because it wasonly a few days after I'd been
cut open. I was doing like,okay, but, you know, trying to
limit the things that I did.
Harvey (01:28):
And so I said, we don't have to record. And you said,
okay.
Pen (01:33):
Okay.
Harvey (01:34):
Okay. And then we didn't.
Pen (01:36):
Yes.
Harvey (01:37):
And then we didn't end up recording at all last month,
so now we're here. And I diedand went to Hell and came back.
Pen (01:44):
And these are the things that have happened to us
recently.
Harvey (01:46):
This is completely true.
Pen (01:47):
And why we... why this is delayed. So we appreciate
everyone's patience, especiallyas we move to this monthly
schedule, and sometimes lifecomes up.
Harvey (01:58):
Yeah, like we've said many episodes before, if we
forced ourselves to record whenwe're not able to, well, we'd be
defeating the entire point ofthe podcast, sooo...
Pen (02:06):
Yeah, that would not be great.
Harvey (02:07):
But getting back into the swing of things, Pen.
Pen (02:10):
Harvey.
Harvey (02:11):
Tell me...
Pen (02:12):
Yeah.
Harvey (02:12):
...about your wahoo moment... oh, excuse me
[clearing throat] Wahoo! Momentof the Week.
Pen (02:16):
I love you so much. I'm in love with you. You're amazing.
You - you are my best friend andI love you.
Harvey (02:21):
I did not actually kiss pen just did a little... a
little... air kiss.
Pen (02:25):
Yeah, we're staring at each other. Well, we're not anymore,
because Harvey's like, "Don'tlook at me."
Harvey (02:30):
I'm so autistic, and so hot.
Pen (02:35):
Yeah, buddy, you are! So yeah, yeah. Wahoo! Moment of the
Week. Oh! I've been playingDisco Elysium
Harvey (02:44):
Oh, yeah. Your latest hyperfixation.
Pen (02:45):
My latest hyper fixation.
Emily observed, she's reallygood at recommending me video
games. She got me into Breath ofthe Wild, Hades, and now Disco
Elysium.
Harvey (02:55):
I didn't know Emily got you into Hades.
Pen (02:57):
Yeah, she was the one who showed me the trailer for it,
and I was like, mm, this doeslook pretty good, though. And
then I played it. And I waslike, okay, here's my life now.
This is... I'm actually wearinga Hades t-shirt.
Harvey (03:07):
You are, and it's a very nice t-shirt.
Pen (03:09):
Thank you. I like it.
Anyway, Disco Elysium is a gamethat's on, like, a lot of
platforms, actually. It's evenon that weird, like... Google
has a game system.
Harvey (03:20):
It does?!
Pen (03:21):
Trevon has it.
Harvey (03:22):
Ha. Google boy.
Pen (03:23):
Google boy. It's also on, like, the App Store and stuff.
It's on, like, everything.
Harvey (03:28):
Really?
Pen (03:29):
Which is super cool.
Harvey (03:30):
I mean, it is kind of a visual novel, isn't it?
Pen (03:32):
Basically. And we love it when indie games, especially
from non-US folks, becauseactually, the creators are
Eastern European.
Harvey (03:42):
Oh! Do you know what country they're from?
Pen (03:44):
Oh, God, I read it this morning and then forgot. But it
also puts into context a lot ofthe stuff.
Harvey (03:53):
Yeah, no, that - that definitely makes sense. And
you've been sending me fan artof one of the characters because
he's very much my type.
Pen (04:00):
Yes.
Harvey (04:00):
He's so hot. And for what?
Pen (04:03):
Estonian! They're Estonian.
Harvey (04:04):
Oh, okay. All right.
Yeah. Vibes.
Pen (04:08):
It's a - it's an absolutely incredible game. It's kind of
a... not open-world...
open-ended RPG...
Harvey (04:18):
Okay.
Pen (04:19):
...is the way that I would put it.
Harvey (04:21):
Kind of a choose your own adventure vibe?
Pen (04:22):
Kind of, yeah, that is about a detective who has
forgotten literally everythingafter a week long... well, not
week long, quite a bender withdrugs and alcohol. Now, it's
incredible. It's one of the bestwritten things that I think I've
engaged with. And also, if youare triggered by alcoholism,
(04:46):
drug abuse, and mentions ofsuicide or suicide threats,
don't play this game.
Harvey (04:53):
Or exercise extreme caution.
Pen (04:55):
Like very, very, very much good - if I played this a few
years ago, it would have causeda relapse, and that's just...
like, that's reality. And also,like, even if you can get past
those, it has some veryrealistic depictions of, like,
racism and sort of normalizedsocietal, just bigotry in
(05:19):
general. So you know, beconscious of that.
Harvey (05:22):
Definitely.
Pen (05:23):
Take care, but if you - if you can handle all of those
things, and you enjoy RPG-typethings, and also, you know,
psychological stuff, examiningyourself, examining others,
really stunning bits ofphilosophy, and also reading a
lot. Like, a lot. Like, a lot ofreading.
Harvey (05:42):
It's a lot of reading.
Pen (05:43):
Then I genuinely can't recommend it enough. It's
incredible.
Harvey (05:45):
Yeah. Awesome!
Pen (05:46):
And I'm hyperfixating because I have ADHD.
Harvey (05:49):
You do, and I love you.
Pen (05:51):
It's incurable.
Harvey (05:52):
That's okay.
Pen (05:53):
Which is true. Anyway, Harvey.
Harvey (05:57):
Yeah!
Pen (05:57):
What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week?
Harvey (06:00):
I am endlessly charmed by the way you say it in
particular.
Pen (06:04):
Yay!
Harvey (06:05):
Um, gosh. I mean, I feel like I say this a lot during
episodes, I've just not beenhaving - bro, I am - straight
up? - not having a good time.
That's an old Vine reference.
But yeah, I've been... I've beengoing through it. If I'm looking
(06:27):
on the bright side of things,though, this isn't new,
necessarily, but I have a reallygreat therapist who has been
helping me work through, like, alot of things.
Pen (06:37):
Yeah.
Harvey (06:38):
And it was - you know, she's... I initially started
seeing her as an intern, but sheactually just finished school,
and she's set to be licensedpretty soon.
Pen (06:48):
Awesome!
Harvey (06:49):
And I still get to pay the intern rate for her.
Pen (06:54):
Yay!
Harvey (06:55):
So that was - she decided to stay on with the
agency that I found her through,and that was part of her
contract, that she would keepher current caseload at the
current price. And I'm like,thank God, you're the best
therapist I've ever had. If Ihad to leave you I would
probably sob.
Pen (07:13):
She has sounded great when you've talked about her.
Harvey (07:15):
Yeah, no, Jenaleigh is great. Love her. Yeah. So I
think that's mine, more of anongoing thing, but I have a
really great therapist.
Pen (07:22):
I think ongoing Wahoos are - are excellent things.
Harvey (07:26):
Especially when you have situations like the one I'm in
right now, where I'm just notdoing good...
Pen (07:31):
Not...
Harvey (07:32):
...much at all.
Pen (07:32):
...having good time.
Harvey & Pen (07:33):
[Sing-song] Not having a good time.
Pen (07:37):
Queen. That's a Queen.
Harvey (07:41):
Beyond Introspection karaoke night.
Pen (07:43):
Oh, God. I'll tell you what we'd sing, and it's Panic! at
the Disco.
Harvey (07:49):
I don't think I would, because I think I would fry my
vocal cords. I do not haveanything close to Brendon Urie's
range.
Pen (07:56):
Oh, neither do I. I just think that's - that's... if we
intersect our music tastes, weend up singing Panic! at the
Disco.
Harvey (08:03):
Yeah, if we had to pick one. That or, like, Regina
Spektor, maybe.
Pen (08:06):
Ooh, we could do Regina Spektor.
Harvey (08:07):
We could. Any...
Pen (08:08):
A couple of Mitski songs.
Harvey (08:10):
Yeah, a handful. Me and my Husband, uh...
Pen (08:12):
Do you like - do you like Strawberry Blond?
Harvey (08:16):
I have feelings about it, but I do think it's a really
great song.
Pen (08:19):
I like it. It's so wild.
Harvey (08:22):
Mm-hmm.
Pen (08:23):
Mitski
Harvey (08:25):
Oh! You know what?
Secondary Wahoo! Moment (08:25):
in the middle of March I saw Mitski
live and I lost my mind. It wasso good.
Pen (08:33):
Their marbles are still scattered all over.
Harvey (08:35):
Just a little bit.
Pen (08:37):
Mitski fan first, person second.
Harvey (08:40):
Shut up!
Pen (08:42):
That day. That was I was approaching it. I messaged you
on Discord to talk about apotential future topic, and I
was like, "So I know you're likeMitski fan first, person second
today, so don't worry aboutresponding..."
Harvey (08:53):
And I responded, like, right away.
Pen (08:55):
You did. You hadn't left.
Harvey (08:57):
In any case...
Pen (08:58):
Yeah, yeah, topic today.
Harvey (09:01):
We're talking about masking.
Pen (09:04):
Not COVID.
Harvey (09:05):
No, that one...
Pen (09:07):
Just occurred to me.
Harvey (09:08):
That one is a no nuance.
If you live in an area with highCOVID transmission, you should
wear a mask when you're inpublic.
Pen (09:13):
Yeah, that's... it - that's the way to prevent transmission
of disease, and we live in asociety, and have obligations
because we live in a society tocare for one another. Otherwise,
society doesn't work.
Harvey (09:28):
And that's the episode.
Thank you very much. Stickaround-
Pen (09:30):
We are - we evolved to be social beings.
Harvey (09:34):
We did.
Pen (09:36):
That's the end of the...
Harvey (09:37):
No, there's the...
there's the kind of - this is adifferent kind of masking. It
has to do with neurodivergence.
And you know, Pen?
Pen (09:47):
Yeah, Harvey?
Harvey (09:47):
[Laughter] Oh, God, that sounded so fake.
It did. It really did.
You ever had a moment wheresomeone's told you, like, um,
like a mental illness, or aneurodivergence, or just
something they're dealing with,and maybe you didn't have the
conscious thought of, like, "Oh,wait, but that doesn't sound
like you." But maybe you've hadthe moment of, "Oh, really? I
(10:11):
would have never have guessed."Like, because I know I've had
those moments.
Pen (10:13):
You know, probably, yeah, I think I have had those moments.
Nothing specific comes to mindon it, but, yeah. I mean - yeah,
I have actually, yes, yes. Ihave had a couple of moments of
- of someone being like, "Hey, Ihave ADHD," or, you know, I've
got intense anxiety, and I'vebeen like, "Really? Huh!"
Harvey (10:36):
Yeah, no, and, like, even with me being
neurodivergent and mentally ill,and have - and having the
reaction of, like, "What? You?
Autistic? I would have no idea!"Like, I've definitely done that.
Like, I think that's a verynatural sort of human reaction
based on the society that we'vebeen brought up in.
Pen (10:54):
Pros and cons
Harvey (10:56):
[Happily] We live in a society! [Sadly] We live in a
society. For better or forworse.
Pen (11:03):
Oh, God, that's actually really... the importance of
masking in a society. Thetragedy of masking in a society.
Harvey (11:08):
Yeah. So, I think a major part of where that kind of
gut reaction that you might havecomes from is masking.
Pen (11:16):
Yes.
Harvey (11:17):
And masking... I think the best way to probably
describe it would be any sort ofmeasure you do consciously or
subconsciously to suppress waysin which you are visibly
neurodivergent or mentally ill.
And I know for me, one of themajor ways for that, is that,
like, I don't stim in public.
Just straight up.
Pen (11:37):
I think, like, definitely with masking, um, and what I
would, you know, really, reallyspecify with it, is that it's
about other people perceivingyou, because that is... the goal
of it is for people to not know.
Harvey (11:53):
Yeah.
Pen (11:54):
Which is... and not necessarily to not know that the
disorder or neurodivergence,like exists, in the first place,
but rather, to hide some or allsymptoms of it. Or, like,
behavior related.
Harvey (12:10):
Especially the ones that are, like, less, quote unquote,
"Socially acceptable."
Pen (12:13):
Yes. So... so your example of stimming, which I think, in
the stimming split episode thatwe did 100,000 years ago, you
did mention that you just don'tstim in public.
Harvey (12:27):
I don't, mostly because I just don't want to deal with
the judgment. I don't wantpeople to look at me. And it's
not because I'm ashamed of beingautistic. It's just that
sometimes I don't want to dealwith the questions and the
staring, because it'sexhausting, and it sucks.
Pen (12:47):
It is... it is so incredibly different to be,
like... I love being aroundpeople where I can like flap my
hands, and things and they getit, and they're, like, happy for
me, also.
Harvey (12:55):
Yeah.
Pen (12:56):
It's like, yeah! Pen excited!
Harvey (12:59):
Hoo-ray!
Pen (12:59):
And then just, like, it's a thing I can only do in certain
spaces with certain people.
Because otherwise, like, atbest, it's going to be slightly
confusing for people. And youknow, at worst, they're going to
be actively, like, horrid aboutit.
Harvey (13:15):
Right. And that's the reality. That's... it's an
unfortunate consequence, Ithink, of being neurodivergent
in a society.
Pen (13:24):
There are a lot of there's so much stigma attached to
neurodivergent. And especiallyexpression of it. And, you know,
it really, really ranges, too,because there is a lot, a lot, a
lot of stigma attached tovisible expressions of being
autistic.
Harvey (13:42):
Oh, God, yes.
Pen (13:44):
There is, in a different way, and I would say, to a
lesser extent, a lot of stigmaattached to visible expressions
of ADHD symptoms.
Harvey (13:54):
Yeah, I would say it's... it's less to an extent,
but not... it's certainly notnegligible.
Pen (14:00):
Oh, no, it very much exists. And the stereotypes
about it are so harmful.
Harvey (14:06):
So damaging.
Pen (14:07):
And play a lot into psychiatrists and their
likelihood of diagnosis. Anyway.
Harvey (14:13):
And why AFAB people don't get diagnosed with ADHD
often enough.
Pen (14:17):
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, sometimes the reason that people
are like, "Wow, I wouldn't haveguessed that you have 'x,'" is
because of masking or a generalmisunderstanding of what it is
actually like, and sometimesit's just because you're AFAB.
Harvey (14:32):
Yeah, sometimes it's just sexism.
Pen (14:34):
Yeah, sometimes it's just straight up, like, oh, yeah, we
don't talk about how thingsmanifest differently if you are
not a cis boy.
Harvey (14:43):
Because typical, quote unquote, autism traits are just
the ways that our girls areexpected to behave in society in
some ways. In being quiet, andso on and so forth. It's
frustrating. And this issomething that I wanted to talk
about because it's actually amajor part of why it took me
(15:04):
forever to realize that I wasautistic, was because I have
been masking my entire life. Thewhole time!
Pen (15:12):
It's, uh, learned behaviors.
Harvey (15:16):
And yeah, I can get into this in a little bit, but - but
also some of that has to do withthis... this, like, in the,
quote unquote, treatment ofneurodivergence, sort of the,
what's the word I'm looking for>Like, this, this push toward
normalcy, Like, not necessarilyembracing difference, but trying
to squash it, I suppose is thebest way to phrase it.
Pen (15:40):
How do you act the most acceptable?
Harvey (15:43):
Yeah.
Pen (15:44):
Which, at its... at the best intentions, it comes from,
"Oh, well, we don't want thisperson to be like... we don't
want our kids to be made fun ofor made to feel different,"
Harvey (15:53):
Which, like, okay, that's legit.
Pen (15:55):
It is. And it's also a fundamental misunderstanding of
if you're telling a child tosuppress their natural
behaviors, maybe they won't getmade fun of by kids at school,
but you're telling them tosuppress their natural
behaviors.
Harvey (16:05):
It's kind of like... to use a probably pretty extreme
analogy, are there ways in whichyou can prevent - you can, like,
lower your risk, potentially, ofbeing sexually assaulted? Sure,
that's also not on you, and itshouldn't be.
Pen (16:18):
Yeah, like... if you are reducing something for the sake
of bullying, that is... I mean,I can appreciate that. Also,
one, the problem isn't your kid,the problem is the people who
are going to bully them. And Iknow that that is not something
that you can necessarily fix. Ithink the solution, really
should generally be seen more ashow do I help my child's
(16:40):
self-confidence?
Harvey (16:41):
Yeah.
Pen (16:41):
What can I do to make them feel secure in themselves so
that the people who are going tobe awful sometimes throughout
their whole life have less of agrip on them?
Harvey (16:52):
Yeah.
Pen (16:53):
Rather than telling them to not be who they are, and to view
parts of them themselves thatare just fundamental to their
very being as wrong orundesirable?
Harvey (17:05):
Yeah, and I'll tell you what, as someone who spent all
of their conscious life,masking, uh, typically
subconsciously, the urge toexpress my neurodivergence, the
urge to stim, the urge to breakdown every time I was in a
Walmart, the urge to just talkand talk and talk about all the
(17:27):
things that I found interesting,that never went away, as much as
I tried to suppress it. Andfrankly, the push for me to mask
kind of just made me feel like afreak.
Pen (17:38):
Yeah, it doesn't actually... it doesn't actually
help, broad strokes. It doesn't.
It can be useful, I think, insome ways, as, like... there's a
difference between masking andcoping skills.
Harvey (17:52):
Yeah.
Pen (17:52):
I think that that is a really, really important thing
to hit on. In like, there is adistinction between... not
always, like, if you are, forexample, overstimulated, trying
to... like, you know, hold out,when you can, until you can get
to a safer place, or being,like, aware that a thing might
(18:21):
bother you and takingappropriate precautions. And you
know, sometimes not mentioningit, or bringing attention to it,
because for attention to bebrought to it, like, if that
would increase your distress.
Harvey (18:34):
And the difference is that that's sort of an internal
process.
Pen (18:37):
Yeah. Or like, um, finding ways to stem that are more
subtle, maybe because you don'twant a ton of attention to be
brought to you. Like, you wantto stim, but you'd like to stim
quietly, just because, like,it's for you. There's a very big
difference between that andhiding it out of shame, or
because you just feel likeyou're supposed to. A lot of it
(19:00):
comes from the intent. Is thepoint of this to care for
yourself, or is the point ofthis to not be wrong, or to hide
a thing that you think isunseemly? Or that you've been
told makes you freakish? Like,is it about judgment from other
(19:21):
people? Or is it about care foryourself?
Harvey (19:24):
Yeah, no, that's...
that's real. And I appreciateyou raising that because
that's... I think that could bea really muddy distinction.
Pen (19:31):
There are complexities for sure, but like, a lot of it, I
think, comes from the internalfeeling.
Harvey (19:35):
I think so, too. The...
and - we were kind of talkingabout this before the episode,
but there was... that there's...
kind of your experience withmasking is different in that you
don't - if I'm - if I'mremembering correctly - you
don't really mask your ADHD asmuch, but you do have a history
of masking your depression.
Pen (19:55):
Yes.
Harvey (19:55):
Which I found interesting.
Pen (19:57):
Yeah, it is. Hm, so I'm doing better now. So -
dramatically, yeah, dramaticallybetter than I used to be, which
is actually... Disco Elysium hasbeen a really cool way to
realize that, because a coupleof years ago, oh, it could have
damaged me so much. And now,like, um, this - this past
(20:20):
Thursday, so like, four daysago, I had a really unfortunate
trauma episode that gottriggered to the point where,
like, I had to come home fromwork because I just needed to be
somewhere I felt safe.
Harvey (20:29):
I'm glad you came home, still.
Pen (20:31):
Me, too. I played Disco Elysium and felt fine, and it
touches on some really, reallyheavy stuff. So you know,
it's... it's nice to have bitsof proof of like, oh, wow, I am
doing better.
Harvey (20:43):
Like, hey, I can actually handle this on a bad
day.
Pen (20:45):
Yeah, like, oh! Cool!
Harvey (20:47):
How about that?
Pen (20:48):
I'm not going to drink.
That's good.
Harvey (20:50):
Oh, the... the... one of the most unfortunate things that
Pen and I have in common is abad relationship with alcohol.
Pen (20:59):
So for a game to heavily touch on alcoholism, and for me
to not feel any compulsion todrink is, like, nice. And you
know, that has come with, um...
like, when I learned about myADHD, and to now, like, I have
been embracing it, pretty much,and... I like talking about
things I'm interested in. I'minterested in my own ADHD. Well,
(21:19):
let's be real, I'm interested inmyself, and also ADHD.
Harvey (21:25):
That's a little bit on the nose.
Pen (21:27):
I mean, I like to talk about myself, I can recognize
these things.
Harvey (21:30):
Hey, self-awareness is a great quality to have,
legitimately.
Pen (21:34):
Thank you. My therapists always talk about it.
Harvey (21:36):
Hey, me, too. Oldest child, only child solidarity.
Pen (21:42):
Yeah, my therapists be like, "Wow, you're really self
aware." Me (21:43):
"Yeah, I didn't have many friends and spent a lot of
time in my own head, and this isalso how I figured out how to
suppress literally, every partof my emotions that I thought
could put me in any sort ofvulnerable state."
Harvey (21:55):
Whoa, look at how that slid right into masking.
Pen (21:58):
Exactly! And so, that is the big difference, is right
now, I'm not hiding things,because I'm doing really well,
and also because sometimes Iwant to assert that. There are
still some things that I dosuppress more like, for example,
responses to sensoryoverstimulation. Some of that
is, there's not really a goodway to express it, because
people don't understand what itmeans.
Harvey (22:18):
Yeah.
Pen (22:19):
And if you're already distressed, trying to explain it
does not help.
Harvey (22:23):
No. Especially depending on the severity with what you...
you respond to sensory overload,and whatnot.
Pen (22:30):
Oh, yeah. I don't know how tell people, "Yeah, I'm wearing
one headphone while I'm workingthe tech desk. It's, uh, for
medical reasons. No, seriously.
Silence freaks me out."
Harvey (22:42):
So fair.
Pen (22:44):
But yeah, yeah. So now, I don't mask as much. I'm sure
there are ways I'm not consciousof it, and there are small
things, but compared to how Iused to be? Let's do circa
2016-2017.
Harvey (22:57):
Sure.
Pen (22:58):
Um, that was the lowest point of my life, no questions
asked. 2017 was a horrible yearfor my mental health. I was
doing really, really, reallyextremely badly. I'm going to
not get into details of it, butI think it is useful in
discussing the ways that Imasked. This was at the point
(23:21):
where I was self harming.
Typically, God, at its worst,like, a few times a week.
Harvey (23:30):
Oh, wow.
Pen (23:31):
It wasn't... I don't think it was often daily, but it might
be every other day.
Harvey (23:35):
Wow.
Pen (23:37):
Yeah, but never do enough to scar, so...
Harvey (23:40):
Well...!
Pen (23:41):
Yeah. It's a thing. Anyway.
And that was, you know, part ofit, too. But yeah, I was doing
absolutely horribly, and I hadbeen doing badly for, like,
quite some time up to thatpoint. But this was when my
emotional instability was at itsworst, no questions.
Harvey (23:59):
Well, and you were starting to think at that time
that you had BPD, didn't you?
Pen (24:03):
Yes, at that point, I did think that. This is... like, it
was the depression. That was it.
And that was, of course, now, Iknow, related to the emotional
instability that's just a partof ADHD. Didn't know that at the
time. Complicated.
Harvey (24:18):
Well, and one of the things that doesn't get talked
about with ADHD - or, excuse me,depression, as much as it
should, is that depression, whenit gets severe enough, can
actually present with psychoticsymptoms. Like, some people
genuinely become so depressedthat they go into periods of
psychosis. And that, combinedwith ADHD, the the emotional
(24:40):
instability, like, that - thatreally can look like something
more quote unquote, severe.
Pen (24:46):
It - It was awful, and I was not even a little bit okay.
Harvey (24:53):
Yeah.
Pen (24:54):
And I hid all of it pretty successfully, um, which is not
good, obviously. But like, thisis the best example I have of
masking is like, you know, I wasself-harming, grabbed a...
[jingling] thanks, Benji.
Harvey (25:15):
Thank you!
Pen (25:16):
Little cat bell. Uh, small knife from the kitchen. No one
noticed. That no one noticed thelittle, like, bits of, like.
Neosporin and band aids that Iwould squirrel away. Wouldn't
notice when I would, uh... like,at work, or during class or
something, would just suddenlyget hit with feeling absolutely
(25:37):
horrible. And you know, I couldalways just put up a blank face,
my well-maintained porcelainmask of like, "No, I'm not
feeling anything." But then whenit would get to be too much, and
I could no longer package awayin the way that I had been since
I was, like, 10, I would go tothe bathroom and sit in the
stall, and just like...
sometimes I would just sitthere, still feeling empty. And
(26:00):
sometimes I would, like, breakdown and sob, and then I would
package it all right back upwithin, like, five minutes.
Harvey (26:09):
Which is something that was very much a thing when we
first met, that you would cry,one, silently, and two, for
like, maybe three minutes at atime, and then it would just be
Pen (26:13):
Yeah, it's... I - I had, like, successfully restrained
over.
myself in a way that was sounhealthy. Like, actually, I
forgot about that. I forgot thatI silently cried.
Harvey (26:34):
It was one of the... it was one of the things about you
that actually made me the mostconcerned when we first met. It
was something I had neverencountered before.
Pen (26:43):
I... it was a thing that I, like, actively learned how to
do. And it was a combination ofnot wanting anyone to know, and
like, being able to break downjust about anywhere, so long as
I could get a couple of minutesof si - of, uh, alone time.
Harvey (27:01):
Yeah.
Pen (27:02):
And also not wanting to be inconvenient. These things were
tied.
Harvey (27:07):
That's so difficult.
Pen (27:08):
Yeah, it was - it was a thing where I was, like, so
certain that any expression ofemotion near another person
would be the thing I was doingwrong.
Harvey (27:14):
Mm...
Pen (27:16):
Yeah, so I didn't share, like, you know, any of that with
anyone. Or if - even if I didshare it with some people, I was
still, like, masking in themajority of my life. It's the
kind of thing - there's so muchthat a person can hide. And I
hid a lot.
Harvey (27:33):
Yeah.
Pen (27:33):
And it didn't mean that people didn't know, I think.
Like, I'm sure... I'm sure therewere people in my life that knew
I wasn't doing great, but Idon't think anybody had the
whole picture.
Harvey (27:48):
Yeah.
Pen (27:50):
I like to think... I have to hope that nobody really had a
good - good full picture of it,because if they did, then then I
would have hoped that they woulddo something, because I was,
again, not to get too detailed,a massive suicide risk.
Harvey (28:12):
Yeah, that's... that's real.
Pen (28:14):
And I hid it!
Harvey (28:17):
Yeah.
Pen (28:17):
None of that was for self-care and self-love.
Harvey (28:20):
No.
Pen (28:20):
The masking was actively also harmful. A person should
not be able to... like, there'snothing healthy about packaging
your emotions away so that youcan designate five minutes out
to go have a breakdown in thebathroom, and then put on your
mask and go right back on withthe rest of your day.
Harvey (28:40):
Yeah, and that's, I think, a very clear example of
how masking can be harmful. Idon't think masking is
exclusively harmful, especiallyif you're doing it intentionally
in a way to protect yourself.
I'm going to channel mytherapist a little bit here, and
- and say something that shewould probably say. And I think
(29:00):
if she was talking to you, she'dprobably say something along the
lines of (29:05):
in certain ways, masking your ADHD in public
serves you in that people don'talways see it, and you can
control when people see it to anextent, so you can decide who
knows and who doesn't. In thecase of your depression, on the
other hand, that decidedly wasnot serving you in the sense
that you were miserable, and itsounds like you wanted help.
Pen (29:27):
Oh, yeah. Like, there are so many just classic cries for
help right in there. And I wasdoing it as quietly as I could,
because I also didn't believethat I would get help.
Harvey (29:39):
Yeah.
Pen (29:40):
I had, like, nothing. I was, uh... Yeah, it was... It
was awful, and it was also, insome ways, just, like, sort of
classic stereotypes in someparts of it, which is fine with
me. But I don't think peoplefully understand what the
stereotypes actually look likesometimes.
Harvey (30:01):
Yeah.
Pen (30:03):
Like, if I could go up to a bathroom and use a Walmart razor
head, and then come right backdown and no one suspected thing
- uh, yeah, people can do that.
Hey, folks? That is sometimeswhat depression just looks like.
Harvey (30:24):
And to me, that's the scariest thing about it. Not the
potential suicidality, not thepresentation with psychosis,
it's how quiet...
Pen (30:32):
Yep.
Harvey (30:33):
...depression can be.
Pen (30:34):
Exactly. Like, "Wow, I never would have guessed you're
depressed!" Think about that.
Because depression is never apretty thing. Depression is
never a manageable thing, justkind of... it's overwhelming and
horrible, and messes with everypart of you. So if someone says,
"Yeah, I'm depressed," and youthink, "I never would have
(30:58):
known," that's a bad sign.
Harvey (31:02):
It's a... it's a sign that they are being as quiet
about it as they, really, theycan be.
Pen (31:09):
And there's no way to be quiet about depression and have
it be healthy.
Harvey (31:14):
Decidedly not. And whereas with, if you don't mind
me talking a little [audio cutsout]
Pen (31:21):
...don't really want to relive more of that, though.
Harvey (31:29):
Sure. You sure you don't need a break?
Pen (31:32):
Yeah. I'm good. I'm just like...
Harvey (31:34):
Okay.
Pen (31:36):
And scene!
Harvey (31:40):
It definitely looks different from a neurodivergent
perspective. Because for me,masking was something that I did
as a child, mostlyunintentionally. Or, not
unintentionally, but I wasn'treally aware of what I was
doing, I think is the way that Iwould phrase that. Because, let
(32:01):
me think, I... basically, wheresort of my - my - my journey,
you could say, with autismstarts, is when I'm a kid. I saw
a...
Pen (32:20):
AAAB...
Harvey (32:21):
What?
Pen (32:22):
AAAB. Assigned autism at birth.
Harvey (32:24):
[Laughter] Nice. That's pretty good. When I was a child,
I was seeing a childpsychologist, because I -
actually, I started ripping myhair out when I was a kid,
because my parents talked aboutmoving, and that stressed me out
so bad that I would just rip myhair out in chunks.
Pen (32:41):
Well, that's not good.
Harvey (32:42):
And, uh, my parents took me to a psychologist, because
they were like, "Hey, what'swrong with this one?" And that's
when I was diagnosed withgeneralized anxiety disorder at
the age of five.
Pen (32:52):
Yeah.
Harvey (32:53):
And now I'm on Wellbutrin about it.
Pen (32:59):
I like the... I like "About it," as phrasing.
Harvey (33:02):
Thank you, thank you. I need to be funny every second of
the day.
Pen (33:04):
Yep.
Harvey (33:06):
And, you know, so I would be seeing this - I'd be
seeing this doctor, and I didn't- it was, like, play therapy,
which is very common withchildren, so I thought I was
just playing with this strangeadult for an hour every week,
and I didn't really know whatwas going on, but Dr. Wren
seemed nice, and she playeddolls with me, so like, cool.
Pen (33:25):
Yeah, dope.
Harvey (33:26):
Yeah. And I found out from my dad years later that,
um, she wanted me evaluated forautism. And that's when I was
pulled out of therapy and didn'tgo back until I was 11.
Pen (33:38):
Yeah...
Harvey (33:39):
I think...
Pen (33:41):
Yeah...
Yikesies.
Harvey (33:41):
Almost entirely because my parents probably just didn't
...for a lot of reasons.
I mean, I get it. Like, I'm surewant me to be autistic.
some of it was, like, I was, youknow, "a gifted kid," which is
to say, undiagnosedneurodivergence, and
hyperfixation, and unhealthyrelationships with academia.
Pen (34:01):
Which is to say, sad. Very sad.
Harvey (34:03):
Very, very sad. And I think, to my parents, not their
credit, but I think, um... tokind of put some of their stuff
into perspective, I think theysaw... if I'm trying to get into
their shoes, I think maybe theysaw that I had some kind of
potential, and they didn't wantto shoot that in the foot. And
(34:26):
maybe - and especially sincethis would have been 2005 that I
would have been in therapy for -for the first time, the kind of
socio- sociocultural stage forneurodivergence was very
different...
Pen (34:43):
Oh, extremely, yeah.
Harvey (34:44):
...than it is now. And that's not to say that it's good
right now, but it's a heck of alot better than it was in 2005.
Pen (34:50):
We talk about it ever, for example. In polite company.
Harvey (34:55):
Exactly. So, I think in many ways an autism diagnosis
then would have been way moredetrimental than it would have
been now. And on the same token,like, I remember - well, I
actually don't remember this,but my dad tells me this, we
went into - my mom wanted to seethis, like, concert for a band.
(35:16):
And it was an indoor venue, andit was huge. And I remember
being - the part that I doremember is being there. And
then I remember that things gotreally, really, really loud as
the band started playing. Andthis is where I don't remember
things, but according to my dad,I just started losing it. Like,
(35:38):
I was - I was crying, I wasstarting to scream a little bit.
Like, it was a meltdown. It wasan autistic, sensory meltdown.
Pen (35:46):
Of course it was.
Harvey (35:47):
And my parents didn't really know why it was
happening, and as far as I know,I think actually, my mom was mad
at me for it. And - at leastthat's my understanding. And so
my mom stays in the concertvenue to continue watching, and
(36:07):
my dad kind of takes me intothis basement area, and
according to him, I just laidthere, catatonic, for an hour or
two. And I remember just - thething that I remember, I don't
remember the events, but Iremember the way it felt. And I
remember just feeling so tiredand confused.
Pen (36:34):
Yeah.
Harvey (36:34):
Because I was upset, and I felt, like, overwhelmed and
tired, and I had no idea why.
And little things like thatwould keep happening. I would -
I would, a lot of the time, justget agitated when I was at the
store with my mom, and I didn'tknow why. And it turned out that
grocery stores, you know, yearslater, I finally figured out
that grocery stores are justreally rough for me,
sensory-wise.
Pen (36:56):
Of course they are. They suck.
Harvey (36:58):
They're awful. I...
screw grocery stores. All myhomies hate grocery stores.
Except Aldi.
Pen (37:05):
Aldi is - there are some things that are okay, and I like
that Hy-Vee is less fluorescentthan Walmart.
Harvey (37:11):
That's true.
Pen (37:11):
But if I can not go to a grocery store, then I'm doing
the correct thing.
Harvey (37:15):
Yes. Oh, God, pickup orders, my beloved. But yeah,
and there were those littlethings. And then it was
always... it was the otherthings, too, where, like...
there's this interesting thingthat happens when you grow up
visibly neurodivergent, even ifyou're trying to a- even if
you're trying to mask, wherepeople do treat you differently
(37:38):
in an almost pitying way.
Pen (37:41):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:42):
'Cause in high school, the second high school that I
went to, I had startedtransitioning. And I think my
transition from feminine tomasculine made my autistic
traits, surprise, surprise, alot more obvious, because now
people were perceiving me as aboy, ostensibly, and I think at
(38:03):
that point, the very clearsymptoms of autism that I had
became way more apparent,because well, that's a - that's
a boys' thing. Like, you know,obviously, people don't say
that, but they kind of thinksubconsciously, "Well, boys get
autism." And I remember, therewere a group of girls that I was
friends with, or at least Iperceived them as friends, and
(38:26):
they did genuinely treat me verywell, and I kind of connected
the dots several years down theline, like I was probably two or
three years out of college - er,I out of high school when I
realized this, that, to anextent, they were definitely
hanging around me because theywere worried, because I was
being pretty badly bullied, fora lot of reasons.
Pen (38:50):
Oh, gee.
Harvey (38:50):
And so it was a genuine - it was a genuine point of
concern. But the thing is, like,and that's where masking gets
tricky, because I thought...
like, I think by the time I gotto high school, I knew that
something was different aboutme, but I didn't quite know what
it was. And people kept tellingme that there was no possible
(39:11):
way that I could be autistic. SoI was thinking, okay, I'm not
autistic, then. So then what isit? So I thought I was masking,
and I thought I was hiding allthese things really well, and I
realized, years down the linethat, like, oh, no, no, I was
visibly autistic, and there werepeople who were genuinely
concerned for me. And that'stricky.
(39:33):
And that's another complicatedpiece of masking. When you want
to do it to an extent becauseyou just - and I mean, this goes
into internalized ableism, toowhere you just want people to
think that you're "normal," andit doesn't work anyway. And I
think that kind of shook myfoundation a little bit, to...
(39:54):
to feel like, no matter what Idid, every... everyone was just
gonna know that there wassomething up with me.
Pen (40:02):
Yep.
Harvey (40:03):
And... and these days, I've sort of come to accept it.
I mean, frankly, being autisticis a very core part of my
identity, and something thatI'm... I don't know if I'm proud
of it yet, but I think I'mgetting there, and I want to be
proud of it at some point. Butit's... it's - it's things like
(40:26):
that, where, I think in someways, if we, you know, because
your perspective is very muchabout how masking can be
harmful, and it can be. Theother side of that, when you
want to mask when you, in someways, want to assimilate,
because the way that you gettreated when you are visibly
neurodivergent sucks.
Pen (40:46):
Yep.
Harvey (40:47):
And it shouldn't be that way.
Pen (40:49):
But that doesn't mean that it isn't.
Harvey (40:51):
Yeah, and...
Pen (40:52):
...just, we can't change that part.
Harvey (40:54):
The thing that is beneficial for me about masking
is that it does allot me a levelof agency that I don't have when
I'm not masking. When I amvisibly neurodivergent, people
make assumptions about my levelof ability. And it's true that
there are some things that I amless able to do than
(41:14):
neurotypical people. It - thatis the whole reason I am
disabled.
Pen (41:19):
Yeah, like that's - this is what this means.
Harvey (41:21):
I am legitimately disabled. There are some things
that I legitimately cannot do.
It's not typically the thingsthat people think I can't do.
Pen (41:28):
Yeah.
Harvey (41:28):
If I tell people I'm autistic, a lot of the time
people implicitly think that I'mstupid. And one, it's just not
nice to call anybody stupid, andalso, people's worth is not
rooted in their intelligence.
Pen (41:42):
It's wholly inaccurate to just... like, it's...
Harvey (41:46):
Also I'm not stupid, I'm really smart.
Pen (41:48):
And it's like, stupid is such a, um, flawed term, because
like...
Harvey (41:53):
It's so nebulous.
Pen (41:55):
Like, what are you actually trying to get across here? Are
you trying to get across thatsomeone can't pick up on certain
concepts as quickly? Because I'mgonna bet you, there are other
concepts that they can pick up abit faster, or even if they
can't pick up all these conceptssuper quickly, what is the point
you're actually trying to make?
Harvey (42:13):
As a heads up, I'm going to say a slur for the sake of an
argument (42:16):
Are you replacing the word retarded with stupid?
Because I kind of feel likethat's what people are doing.
Pen (42:23):
It is. And also, like, there is such a judgment call to
it. And for what?
Harvey (42:30):
I'm kind of just vibing.
Like, yeah, sometimes all I wantto do is just sit here and rock
and make my silly little hummingnoises, but...
Pen (42:36):
That doesn't actually mean anything, folks. Not like you
think it does.
Harvey (42:40):
That doesn't say anything about my intelligence
or my ability, it just meansthat that's kind of the way I
self-regulate.
Pen (42:46):
And that is like, I think, a fundamental misunderstanding
of, uh, particularly like,people will assume that neuro
divergence, mental illness, etcetera, means something other
than what they do. Like, theidea that if you are autistic,
then you cannot pick up onconcepts as quickly. Like, you
(43:10):
don't... that's not... that'sinaccurate. Stop it?
Harvey (43:16):
Well, and see, for me, that is true in certain cases,
that my autism does mean that Idon't pick up on things
particularly well. Things flyover my head every single day.
That doesn't mean that I'munintelligent, and that doesn't
mean that I can't learn.
Pen (43:32):
Nor that there aren't some things that you pick up on
easier than folks who... than,like, neurotypical people.
Harvey (43:39):
Like, I remember things about people extremely well.
Like, sensory needs? Like, theminute someone tells me
something about that, I justremember,
Pen (43:49):
You also understand what it means at all.
Harvey (43:53):
Yeah. And that's by virtue of me being
neurodivergent.
Pen (43:57):
Exactly. And that is not less valuable than, um, grammar
rules. In fact, in living in asociety, I would say, it's a lot
more valuable.
Harvey (44:07):
I think, if I had to pick between not knowing grammar
whatsoever, and not knowing howto - and not having any
emotional intelligence, uh,guess I don't know how to use
grammar.
Pen (44:19):
There, their and they're?
No. I will only be using thewrong one. I actually couldn't.
I don't think even as, like, asa joke, maybe once or twice.
Harvey (44:27):
You are - you are a little bit of the grammar police
and it's - I kind of love thatabout you.
Pen (44:32):
Well, I'm glad you love-
Harvey (44:33):
Well, you're fun about it.
Pen (44:34):
I try!
Harvey (44:34):
You're not like one of those annoying dudes on Reddit
that invalidates your argument.
Pen (44:39):
Because that's not a functional way to do it,
because, shocker, people don'talways learn the same kinds of
things.
Harvey (44:45):
You just dunk on people that are - that are already
being stupid, and they're like,"Well, they used the wrong
there, so..."
Pen (44:52):
I mean, it can be fun in some cases, and also, there's,
uh, certain things,communication, et cetera. I'm
Clippy and I'm unbearable.
Harvey (44:59):
And that's okay! You're not unbearable. You're bearable!
Pen (45:02):
No, it's a thing that can be annoying about me, and that's
okay.
Harvey (45:05):
That doesn't make you unbearable.
Pen (45:06):
I know. It's just a silly joke.
Harvey (45:08):
Oh, autism at work.
Pen (45:10):
Yeah, here we go! Also, like, this is what I mean with,
like, um... people assume thatthey know what stupid means.
Y'all don't. Because you don'tactually, I think, broad
strokes, fully understand whatyou're trying to get across with
that concept.
Harvey (45:28):
Can we just stop calling people stupid?
Pen (45:30):
Can we just not do it?
Harvey (45:31):
That's just... it's just not nice.
Pen (45:33):
And this is... all of this, I hesitate to use terms like
this, because I'm not with thewhole "differently abled" kind
of thing.
Harvey (45:43):
Yeah, that's fair.
Pen (45:44):
That's not - I'm not...
usually because... I'm not intothose kinds of arguments when
they come from a perspective of,like, "Oh, well, there's no...
like everyone has - like,everyone's a little bit ADHD."
Harvey (46:01):
No.
Pen (46:01):
That kind of thing.
Harvey (46:02):
I'm not.
Pen (46:03):
The way that they will be, you know, linked in that kind of
way of like, "Oh, it's justdifferently abled." Like, "No,
you are normal." When it's fromthat perspective, like, "No,
we're all just a little bitdifferent. But like, you know,
we're all really the same." Andit's like, no society is
fundamentally set up soneurotypical people get to exist
and neurodivergent people don't.
Harvey (46:22):
And that's the tricky thing. Like we have to strike
this balance, I think, betweensubstantiating that people with
differences, be they race,sexual orientation, disability
status, like, yes, they are,fundamentally, people. There are
things that are fundamentallytrue of most people, and we
ought to treat them like people.
And also, the ways that theyexperience life are legitimately
(46:46):
different. Sometimes that'sgood, sometimes that's bad,
sometimes it's neither.
Pen (46:54):
Yeah. Like...
Harvey (46:55):
Those have to coexist.
Pen (46:57):
Exactly. The way that a neurodivergent brain works - and
neurodivergent brains all workextraordinarily differently, my
brain and your brain work hugelydifferently.
Harvey (47:10):
And even like my boyfriend, Chris, the ways in
which he is autistic, and theways in which I am autistic are
very different.
Pen (47:17):
Yeah! Like these are all - all true things.
Harvey (47:19):
Believe it or not, autism is a spectrum disorder.
Pen (47:25):
So, you know, it's like, they're all different for sure,
and there can be some advantagesand disadvantages. We're people.
We are people, and this is true.
And also, it is harder to existas a neurodivergent person. This
is why disabled is a functionalterm.
Harvey (47:46):
Yeah, and I think - I think, in some cases,
differently abled makes sense touse, especially when we're
talking - like, I have a lot offeelings about, like,
subthreshold symptomology. Andin some ways, I think if - if a
person who is experiencing somesymptoms of neurodivergence, but
maybe doesn't quite meet thatcut off, maybe they will find
(48:07):
utility in differently abled. Idon't want neurotypical people
telling me that I'm differentlyabled, not disabled? No, no, I'm
disabled.
Pen (48:15):
Exactly. I think it depends heavily on the context of it,
and also who's saying it.
Harvey (48:20):
I think we can have both, and I think also that
disability is not a dirty word.
Pen (48:24):
Disability is not a dirty word, and there's nothing wrong
with looking at the facts of theworld. Just because you are
starting to have empathy forpeople who are different from
you, doesn't mean you have toerase the fact that there are
difficulties in society forthem. I understand that you've
never really had a conversationwith a disabled person before,
(48:44):
and for the first time, you'reactually having to see the world
is different. Saying that "No,you are normal, though," isn't
actually helpful.
Harvey (48:55):
There's a reason that I identify as queer, and it is
because I wholeheartedly resistthe notion that I am normal.
Pen (49:02):
Like, hey, hey? "No, but you you're you're normal. You're
okay." That's not actually...
that doesn't feel good.
Harvey (49:12):
I don't - I don't have to be normal to be okay.
Pen (49:14):
Like, yeah, I - stop trying to tell me that there's not
something different about me,because I promise you, I've
lived in this brain, the wholetime, I've been here. I am
different. And to kind of bringit back around to masking a
little bit, folks, we don't knowwhat's going on in each other's
(49:37):
brains. Like, for real, though.
I haven't met Charles Xavier,the telepath man from X Men.
That's uh... it's for all thosecomic book people out there. I
don't know why I went down thisroute. I don't have anything.
Harvey (49:53):
No, no, please!
Pen (49:54):
We don't know what's going on in each other's brains. We
can only make certainassumptions. And I don't mean
assumptions in a judgmental way.
We make a lot of unconsciousperceptions, it's how human
beings work, it's a form ofcommunication, et cetera.
Harvey (50:07):
It's the only way we really know how to be.
Pen (50:11):
And there's, you know, such thing as, like, knowing more,
challenging some, ya-da-da. Butwe don't fully understand each
other. You can't know for sureif someone else is
neurodivergent or mentally illjust based on their behavior,
because when you live in yourown brain, you can figure out
(50:34):
ways to act differently than youfeel. A person can be really,
horribly depressed, and you canthink that they're doing fine
because they're real good athiding it. A person can be
experiencing really intensesensory processing issues, and
(50:55):
you can not notice anythingexcept that they seem kind of
quiet maybe. We... there's areason the masking is a thing.
Harvey (51:08):
Yeah. It's, in part, because we're taking agency over
who knows what, and how much,frankly, danger and level of
harm we're willing to putourselves at in a given day, and
sometimes it is just riskaversion.
Pen (51:28):
Yep. It's... these are decisions that we make, and some
of them are more conscious thanothers, some of them are because
we're pressured to do them, andsome of them, like... if it
comes from fear, if it - if itcomes from self love and
regulation, like, there are allsorts of ways it can come from,
but you really can't know whatanother person is doing. And,
(51:50):
gosh, if you want to know peoplewho are really good at masking
what they are feeling, if you'renot neurotypical, ooh, oh, you
can get so good at it.
Harvey (52:03):
Very good. For better or for worse.
Pen (52:06):
Yeah. But yeah, that is...
I think it is important to keepit in mind, and also, like, if
you're neurotypical to - toreally, like, try to internalize
that, that you don't know what
Harvey (52:17):
Yeah.
it looks like. Not exactly. Andthat's okay. And it also means,
like, the judgment calls youmake positive, negative,
whatever, are going to befundamentally inaccurate, and
you should challenge them. Andif you are neurodivergent, and
(52:39):
you are masking, and mentallyill and masking, I really
encourage you to think aboutwhy. I'm not saying don't do it,
I'm saying, as much as you'reable, do it out of self care.
Pen (52:54):
Out of self love, and not to suppress yourself.
Harvey (53:00):
I think, kind of to...
again, to channel my therapist,mask if it serves you. And it
can serve you in a lot of ways.
It can keep you safe, and also,sometimes maybe you just - maybe
some days, that's just whatfeels right. But yeah, kind of
to echo Pen's point, like,just... you don't have to be
(53:24):
normal, but that doesn't meanthat there's anything wrong with
you.
Pen (53:28):
Like, we're never gonna be normal, folks. We can't get rid
of these things. I joked earlierabout ADHD being incurable. It's
a truth. I'm going to live withit forever. Trying to pretend I
don't have it will just hurt me,actually.
Harvey (53:44):
Yeah.
Pen (53:45):
But also like, some folks more than others, I know some
people legit are - are of themind of, like, I mean, it's just
nobody else's business. I don'twant to express this in public,
because I just don't think it'sfor other people.
Harvey (54:00):
Like, this is just mine, and mine alone. And that's fine.
Pen (54:03):
That's okay. And there are some people who are like, I want
to keep it kind of on thedown-low, just because I don't
want people to bring attentionto it, and I definitely have
some stuff like that. Like,yeah, I would be open about
this, except that it's going tobe a whole thing, and I'm kind
of just trying to live my life.
Harvey (54:17):
Like, for example, I don't really advertise the fact
that I have PTSD.
Pen (54:21):
Like, sometimes, you just don't want people in your brain,
please.
Harvey (54:26):
Yeah. And it also depends on the person. Like,
people that I meet at the store?
They don't need to know that I'mautistic.
Pen (54:35):
No. And like, maybe you just don't want to deal with
some of the symptoms, too. Like,I will mask some of my sensory
processing issues, in partbecause I don't want to give
them more attention and makethem worse, because if I'm at
work, I can't just turn off thelights.
Harvey (54:51):
It can get a little feedback loopy if you focus on
how you're feeling.
Pen (54:55):
Yeah, sometimes you just do it, straight up, to cope with,
like, this is a situation that'sfully outside of my control.
Harvey (55:02):
And so sometimes you play solitaire instead.
Pen (55:04):
Yeah, like, sometimes you just make yourself less
miserable in the ways that youcan. And there's a difference
between, like, doing thatbecause it's like, well, best of
a bad situation, or doing itbecause you feel ashamed, or
like there's something wrongwith you.
Harvey (55:19):
And the other thing that I'd like to add to that, too, is
like, if you're not ready totake the mask off, that's fine,
too.
Pen (55:25):
It's your choice. We... we make these things ourselves. You
have crafted your own mask, andit can change.
Harvey (55:33):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (55:33):
And...
Harvey (55:34):
Mine has.
Pen (55:36):
And it's different in certain situations, and that's
all okay. This is you. You getto choose what you're putting
out there. Like, when you decideto do these things. Some of them
are impossible to hide. That'snot a failure. This is just you.
This is your brain. But it is upto you. If you never want to
stop masking in public, youdon't have to. Like, Harvey and
(55:59):
I are out here to be advocatesfor neurodivergence. Not
everybody wants to, though.
Harvey (56:06):
Yeah. And it also depends on the context. Like in
in this context, and in academiccontexts, I love to be an
advocate for neurodivergence. Inthe Aldi, not so much.
Pen (56:17):
Yeah. Like, I like being upfront about my ADHD. There's
also a lot of people who don'twant folks to know. There is -
that's fine!
Harvey (56:27):
Yeah.
Pen (56:27):
There is no judgment between us. It's all good.
Harvey (56:32):
The only thing I hope for everyone is that you can...
like, I had to work toward thatyou can let go of some of that
judgment that - that societyunfortunately instills upon you.
Pen (56:47):
I... the great hope here is, whatever you choose to do,
that you are choosing to do itout of... out of care, and out
of love for yourself, and thatyou're not doing it just because
somebody told you to and madeyou feel bad.
Harvey (57:05):
Yeah.
Pen (57:05):
But hey, if you're still working through that, like, I
wasn't gonna stop masking when Iwas horrifically depressed. That
wouldn't necessarily have madethings go better. It can be
complicated.
Harvey (57:17):
And if nothing else, know that you're seen.
Pen (57:20):
Yeah.
Harvey (57:21):
There's one last thought I'd like to share before we,
um... before we wrap up.
Pen (57:26):
Please tell me.
Harvey (57:27):
It's a very quick one.
Autism Awareness Month is thismonth. And in some ways, I
actually want to resist thatnotion. In that I think
promoting autism acceptance is amuch nicer way to do it. People
are aware of me already. Andunfortunately, the narrative
(57:48):
that they get about autisticpeople is skewed, because Autism
Speaks and autism moms onFacebook have a chokehold on the
narrative still. So for thisAutism Acceptance Month, get
used to people who aren'tmasking, and understand that
(58:10):
visible difference is not a badthing, and that you don't know
until someone tells you.
Pen (58:23):
Yeah.
Harvey (58:23):
Really critically examine the ways in which you
evaluate neurodivergence, mentalhealth, so on and so forth. Even
I need to continue to do that.
Pen (58:33):
Yeah, same here. And when you say this month, you mean
April, yes?
Harvey (58:36):
Yes.
Pen (58:36):
Because this will be going up, um, maybe near end of April?
Harvey (58:41):
Yes. April is Autism Awareness Month, but...
Pen (58:43):
May is a mental health thing, too.
Harvey (58:45):
I think, but I don't know what it is off the top of
my head.
Pen (58:47):
It's something green, because my mom has extra green
handkerchiefs and stuff from athing and she wanted to know if
anybody wanted some.
Harvey (58:56):
I'm just gonna say...
Pen (58:57):
...mental health.
Harvey (58:57):
Just gonna say, F Light it up Blue. Red Instead all the
way.
Pen (59:01):
Yeah!
Harvey (59:01):
Autism Speaks is a terrible organization. Don't
support them. Don't donate tothem. Thank you.
Pen (59:06):
Uh-huh! Oh, yeah, May is just straight up Mental Health
Awareness Month.
Harvey (59:11):
Sweet.
Pen (59:11):
And I guess it's a green ribbon, so that's cool.
Harvey (59:15):
Kind of a homophobic color that they picked in the
sense that I - in the sense thatI'm colorblind.
Pen (59:24):
Harvey is - Lemony Snicket voice
Harvey is blue-green colorblind,so they are joking.
Harvey (59:34):
Yes.
Pen (59:34):
There's not actually social implications of the color green.
Harvey (59:37):
Not remotely. I just call everything that's
inconvenient to me homophobic.
Pen (59:41):
Yeah, because it's funny.
Harvey (59:42):
Anyway.
Pen (59:43):
See, I like green. I take it you do not want one of the
extra, like, scarf-bandanathings.
Harvey (59:48):
Honestly, I'd probably take one.
Pen (59:50):
Okay, cool.
Harvey (59:51):
So, stick around for just a few more moments, and
we'll tell you a little bit moreabout how this podcast is run.
Pen (59:56):
Yeah.
Harvey (59:56):
Yeah. [Air kissing noises]
Beyond Introspection is anindependently-run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atByndPodcast, or you can email us
at beyonddot - that's D-O-T -podcast@gmail.com. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify, orwherever you get your podcasts.
(01:00:19):
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description. Gotfeedback for us? Feel free to
reach out on social media, orvia email. We'd love to hear
from everyone. Take care ofyourselves.
Hello everybody, and welcome to Beyond Introspection:
A podcast about mental health,neurodivergence, and how it
impacts literally every aspectof your life.
Harvey (00:20):
All of them.
Pen (00:21):
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:21):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:22):
And we're sorry about the delay.
Harvey (00:25):
We're back from the dead!
Pen (00:26):
We're back from... Harvey's back from the dead, and I'm back
from surgery.
Harvey (00:30):
I went to Hell and came back.
Pen (00:32):
I went to the University of Illinois Hospital and came back.
Harvey (00:37):
You did! Do you want to share why?
Pen (00:38):
Yeah, I got top surgery.
Harvey (00:40):
Woo!
Pen (00:40):
Yeah.
Harvey (00:41):
Yay!
Pen (00:41):
My chest is - is flat now, and I have incisions in it.
Stitches, even.
Harvey (00:45):
Wow. Do you have the internal ones that are going to
dissolve?
Pen (00:48):
Yeah, I think that they have dissolved, or are at least
working on it, ecause there's,like, that weird feeling.
Harvey (00:52):
Right, the popping.
Pen (00:53):
Yeah, like the - ooh... - nurse said like - like kind of a
snap, crackle, pop on theinside, and like, it's not
inaccurate, but...
Horrid.
It's weird, like... [popping]
Harvey (01:05):
Doesn't mean that you have to like it.
Pen (01:06):
No. But it's kind of stopped now, so I think that
they have dissolved.
Harvey (01:10):
That is good. Congrats on the top surgery, Pen!
Pen (01:13):
Yeah, yeah. I wasn't super up for recording during our
usual weekend, because it wasonly a few days after I'd been
cut open. I was doing like,okay, but, you know, trying to
limit the things that I did.
Harvey (01:28):
And so I said, we don't have to record. And you said,
okay.
Pen (01:33):
Okay.
Harvey (01:34):
Okay. And then we didn't.
Pen (01:36):
Yes.
Harvey (01:37):
And then we didn't end up recording at all last month,
so now we're here. And I diedand went to Hell and came back.
Pen (01:44):
And these are the things that have happened to us
recently.
Harvey (01:46):
This is completely true.
Pen (01:47):
And why we... why this is delayed. So we appreciate
everyone's patience, especiallyas we move to this monthly
schedule, and sometimes lifecomes up.
Harvey (01:58):
Yeah, like we've said many episodes before, if we
forced ourselves to record whenwe're not able to, well, we'd be
defeating the entire point ofthe podcast, sooo...
Pen (02:06):
Yeah, that would not be great.
Harvey (02:07):
But getting back into the swing of things, Pen.
Pen (02:10):
Harvey.
Harvey (02:11):
Tell me...
Pen (02:12):
Yeah.
Harvey (02:12):
...about your wahoo moment... oh, excuse me
[clearing throat] Wahoo! Momentof the Week.
Pen (02:16):
I love you so much. I'm in love with you. You're amazing.
You - you are my best friend andI love you.
Harvey (02:21):
I did not actually kiss pen just did a little... a
little... air kiss.
Pen (02:25):
Yeah, we're staring at each other. Well, we're not anymore,
because Harvey's like, "Don'tlook at me."
Harvey (02:30):
I'm so autistic, and so hot.
Pen (02:35):
Yeah, buddy, you are! So yeah, yeah. Wahoo! Moment of the
Week. Oh! I've been playingDisco Elysium
Harvey (02:44):
Oh, yeah. Your latest hyperfixation.
Pen (02:45):
My latest hyper fixation.
Emily observed, she's reallygood at recommending me video
games. She got me into Breath ofthe Wild, Hades, and now Disco
Elysium.
Harvey (02:55):
I didn't know Emily got you into Hades.
Pen (02:57):
Yeah, she was the one who showed me the trailer for it,
and I was like, mm, this doeslook pretty good, though. And
then I played it. And I waslike, okay, here's my life now.
This is... I'm actually wearinga Hades t-shirt.
Harvey (03:07):
You are, and it's a very nice t-shirt.
Pen (03:09):
Thank you. I like it.
Anyway, Disco Elysium is a gamethat's on, like, a lot of
platforms, actually. It's evenon that weird, like... Google
has a game system.
Harvey (03:20):
It does?!
Pen (03:21):
Trevon has it.
Harvey (03:22):
Ha. Google boy.
Pen (03:23):
Google boy. It's also on, like, the App Store and stuff.
It's on, like, everything.
Harvey (03:28):
Really?
Pen (03:29):
Which is super cool.
Harvey (03:30):
I mean, it is kind of a visual novel, isn't it?
Pen (03:32):
Basically. And we love it when indie games, especially
from non-US folks, becauseactually, the creators are
Eastern European.
Harvey (03:42):
Oh! Do you know what country they're from?
Pen (03:44):
Oh, God, I read it this morning and then forgot. But it
also puts into context a lot ofthe stuff.
Harvey (03:53):
Yeah, no, that - that definitely makes sense. And
you've been sending me fan artof one of the characters because
he's very much my type.
Pen (04:00):
Yes.
Harvey (04:00):
He's so hot. And for what?
Pen (04:03):
Estonian! They're Estonian.
Harvey (04:04):
Oh, okay. All right.
Yeah. Vibes.
Pen (04:08):
It's a - it's an absolutely incredible game. It's kind of
a... not open-world...
open-ended RPG...
Harvey (04:18):
Okay.
Pen (04:19):
...is the way that I would put it.
Harvey (04:21):
Kind of a choose your own adventure vibe?
Pen (04:22):
Kind of, yeah, that is about a detective who has
forgotten literally everythingafter a week long... well, not
week long, quite a bender withdrugs and alcohol. Now, it's
incredible. It's one of the bestwritten things that I think I've
engaged with. And also, if youare triggered by alcoholism,
(04:46):
drug abuse, and mentions ofsuicide or suicide threats,
don't play this game.
Harvey (04:53):
Or exercise extreme caution.
Pen (04:55):
Like very, very, very much good - if I played this a few
years ago, it would have causeda relapse, and that's just...
like, that's reality. And also,like, even if you can get past
those, it has some veryrealistic depictions of, like,
racism and sort of normalizedsocietal, just bigotry in
(05:19):
general. So you know, beconscious of that.
Harvey (05:22):
Definitely.
Pen (05:23):
Take care, but if you - if you can handle all of those
things, and you enjoy RPG-typethings, and also, you know,
psychological stuff, examiningyourself, examining others,
really stunning bits ofphilosophy, and also reading a
lot. Like, a lot. Like, a lot ofreading.
Harvey (05:42):
It's a lot of reading.
Pen (05:43):
Then I genuinely can't recommend it enough. It's
incredible.
Harvey (05:45):
Yeah. Awesome!
Pen (05:46):
And I'm hyperfixating because I have ADHD.
Harvey (05:49):
You do, and I love you.
Pen (05:51):
It's incurable.
Harvey (05:52):
That's okay.
Pen (05:53):
Which is true. Anyway, Harvey.
Harvey (05:57):
Yeah!
Pen (05:57):
What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week?
Harvey (06:00):
I am endlessly charmed by the way you say it in
particular.
Pen (06:04):
Yay!
Harvey (06:05):
Um, gosh. I mean, I feel like I say this a lot during
episodes, I've just not beenhaving - bro, I am - straight
up? - not having a good time.
That's an old Vine reference.
But yeah, I've been... I've beengoing through it. If I'm looking
(06:27):
on the bright side of things,though, this isn't new,
necessarily, but I have a reallygreat therapist who has been
helping me work through, like, alot of things.
Pen (06:37):
Yeah.
Harvey (06:38):
And it was - you know, she's... I initially started
seeing her as an intern, but sheactually just finished school,
and she's set to be licensedpretty soon.
Pen (06:48):
Awesome!
Harvey (06:49):
And I still get to pay the intern rate for her.
Pen (06:54):
Yay!
Harvey (06:55):
So that was - she decided to stay on with the
agency that I found her through,and that was part of her
contract, that she would keepher current caseload at the
current price. And I'm like,thank God, you're the best
therapist I've ever had. If Ihad to leave you I would
probably sob.
Pen (07:13):
She has sounded great when you've talked about her.
Harvey (07:15):
Yeah, no, Jenaleigh is great. Love her. Yeah. So I
think that's mine, more of anongoing thing, but I have a
really great therapist.
Pen (07:22):
I think ongoing Wahoos are - are excellent things.
Harvey (07:26):
Especially when you have situations like the one I'm in
right now, where I'm just notdoing good...
Pen (07:31):
Not...
Harvey (07:32):
...much at all.
Pen (07:32):
...having good time.
Harvey & Pen (07:33):
[Sing-song] Not having a good time.
Pen (07:37):
Queen. That's a Queen.
Harvey (07:41):
Beyond Introspection karaoke night.
Pen (07:43):
Oh, God. I'll tell you what we'd sing, and it's Panic! at
the Disco.
Harvey (07:49):
I don't think I would, because I think I would fry my
vocal cords. I do not haveanything close to Brendon Urie's
range.
Pen (07:56):
Oh, neither do I. I just think that's - that's... if we
intersect our music tastes, weend up singing Panic! at the
Disco.
Harvey (08:03):
Yeah, if we had to pick one. That or, like, Regina
Spektor, maybe.
Pen (08:06):
Ooh, we could do Regina Spektor.
Harvey (08:07):
We could. Any...
Pen (08:08):
A couple of Mitski songs.
Harvey (08:10):
Yeah, a handful. Me and my Husband, uh...
Pen (08:12):
Do you like - do you like Strawberry Blond?
Harvey (08:16):
I have feelings about it, but I do think it's a really
great song.
Pen (08:19):
I like it. It's so wild.
Harvey (08:22):
Mm-hmm.
Pen (08:23):
Mitski
Harvey (08:25):
Oh! You know what?
Secondary Wahoo! Moment (08:25):
in the middle of March I saw Mitski
live and I lost my mind. It wasso good.
Pen (08:33):
Their marbles are still scattered all over.
Harvey (08:35):
Just a little bit.
Pen (08:37):
Mitski fan first, person second.
Harvey (08:40):
Shut up!
Pen (08:42):
That day. That was I was approaching it. I messaged you
on Discord to talk about apotential future topic, and I
was like, "So I know you're likeMitski fan first, person second
today, so don't worry aboutresponding..."
Harvey (08:53):
And I responded, like, right away.
Pen (08:55):
You did. You hadn't left.
Harvey (08:57):
In any case...
Pen (08:58):
Yeah, yeah, topic today.
Harvey (09:01):
We're talking about masking.
Pen (09:04):
Not COVID.
Harvey (09:05):
No, that one...
Pen (09:07):
Just occurred to me.
Harvey (09:08):
That one is a no nuance.
If you live in an area with highCOVID transmission, you should
wear a mask when you're inpublic.
Pen (09:13):
Yeah, that's... it - that's the way to prevent transmission
of disease, and we live in asociety, and have obligations
because we live in a society tocare for one another. Otherwise,
society doesn't work.
Harvey (09:28):
And that's the episode.
Thank you very much. Stickaround-
Pen (09:30):
We are - we evolved to be social beings.
Harvey (09:34):
We did.
Pen (09:36):
That's the end of the...
Harvey (09:37):
No, there's the...
there's the kind of - this is adifferent kind of masking. It
has to do with neurodivergence.
And you know, Pen?
Pen (09:47):
Yeah, Harvey?
Harvey (09:47):
[Laughter] Oh, God, that sounded so fake.
It did. It really did.
You ever had a moment wheresomeone's told you, like, um,
like a mental illness, or aneurodivergence, or just
something they're dealing with,and maybe you didn't have the
conscious thought of, like, "Oh,wait, but that doesn't sound
like you." But maybe you've hadthe moment of, "Oh, really? I
(10:11):
would have never have guessed."Like, because I know I've had
those moments.
Pen (10:13):
You know, probably, yeah, I think I have had those moments.
Nothing specific comes to mindon it, but, yeah. I mean - yeah,
I have actually, yes, yes. Ihave had a couple of moments of
- of someone being like, "Hey, Ihave ADHD," or, you know, I've
got intense anxiety, and I'vebeen like, "Really? Huh!"
Harvey (10:36):
Yeah, no, and, like, even with me being
neurodivergent and mentally ill,and have - and having the
reaction of, like, "What? You?
Autistic? I would have no idea!"Like, I've definitely done that.
Like, I think that's a verynatural sort of human reaction
based on the society that we'vebeen brought up in.
Pen (10:54):
Pros and cons
Harvey (10:56):
[Happily] We live in a society! [Sadly] We live in a
society. For better or forworse.
Pen (11:03):
Oh, God, that's actually really... the importance of
masking in a society. Thetragedy of masking in a society.
Harvey (11:08):
Yeah. So, I think a major part of where that kind of
gut reaction that you might havecomes from is masking.
Pen (11:16):
Yes.
Harvey (11:17):
And masking... I think the best way to probably
describe it would be any sort ofmeasure you do consciously or
subconsciously to suppress waysin which you are visibly
neurodivergent or mentally ill.
And I know for me, one of themajor ways for that, is that,
like, I don't stim in public.
Just straight up.
Pen (11:37):
I think, like, definitely with masking, um, and what I
would, you know, really, reallyspecify with it, is that it's
about other people perceivingyou, because that is... the goal
of it is for people to not know.
Harvey (11:53):
Yeah.
Pen (11:54):
Which is... and not necessarily to not know that the
disorder or neurodivergence,like exists, in the first place,
but rather, to hide some or allsymptoms of it. Or, like,
behavior related.
Harvey (12:10):
Especially the ones that are, like, less, quote unquote,
"Socially acceptable."
Pen (12:13):
Yes. So... so your example of stimming, which I think, in
the stimming split episode thatwe did 100,000 years ago, you
did mention that you just don'tstim in public.
Harvey (12:27):
I don't, mostly because I just don't want to deal with
the judgment. I don't wantpeople to look at me. And it's
not because I'm ashamed of beingautistic. It's just that
sometimes I don't want to dealwith the questions and the
staring, because it'sexhausting, and it sucks.
Pen (12:47):
It is... it is so incredibly different to be,
like... I love being aroundpeople where I can like flap my
hands, and things and they getit, and they're, like, happy for
me, also.
Harvey (12:55):
Yeah.
Pen (12:56):
It's like, yeah! Pen excited!
Harvey (12:59):
Hoo-ray!
Pen (12:59):
And then just, like, it's a thing I can only do in certain
spaces with certain people.
Because otherwise, like, atbest, it's going to be slightly
confusing for people. And youknow, at worst, they're going to
be actively, like, horrid aboutit.
Harvey (13:15):
Right. And that's the reality. That's... it's an
unfortunate consequence, Ithink, of being neurodivergent
in a society.
Pen (13:24):
There are a lot of there's so much stigma attached to
neurodivergent. And especiallyexpression of it. And, you know,
it really, really ranges, too,because there is a lot, a lot, a
lot of stigma attached tovisible expressions of being
autistic.
Harvey (13:42):
Oh, God, yes.
Pen (13:44):
There is, in a different way, and I would say, to a
lesser extent, a lot of stigmaattached to visible expressions
of ADHD symptoms.
Harvey (13:54):
Yeah, I would say it's... it's less to an extent,
but not... it's certainly notnegligible.
Pen (14:00):
Oh, no, it very much exists. And the stereotypes
about it are so harmful.
Harvey (14:06):
So damaging.
Pen (14:07):
And play a lot into psychiatrists and their
likelihood of diagnosis. Anyway.
Harvey (14:13):
And why AFAB people don't get diagnosed with ADHD
often enough.
Pen (14:17):
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, sometimes the reason that people
are like, "Wow, I wouldn't haveguessed that you have 'x,'" is
because of masking or a generalmisunderstanding of what it is
actually like, and sometimesit's just because you're AFAB.
Harvey (14:32):
Yeah, sometimes it's just sexism.
Pen (14:34):
Yeah, sometimes it's just straight up, like, oh, yeah, we
don't talk about how thingsmanifest differently if you are
not a cis boy.
Harvey (14:43):
Because typical, quote unquote, autism traits are just
the ways that our girls areexpected to behave in society in
some ways. In being quiet, andso on and so forth. It's
frustrating. And this issomething that I wanted to talk
about because it's actually amajor part of why it took me
(15:04):
forever to realize that I wasautistic, was because I have
been masking my entire life. Thewhole time!
Pen (15:12):
It's, uh, learned behaviors.
Harvey (15:16):
And yeah, I can get into this in a little bit, but - but
also some of that has to do withthis... this, like, in the,
quote unquote, treatment ofneurodivergence, sort of the,
what's the word I'm looking for>Like, this, this push toward
normalcy, Like, not necessarilyembracing difference, but trying
to squash it, I suppose is thebest way to phrase it.
Pen (15:40):
How do you act the most acceptable?
Harvey (15:43):
Yeah.
Pen (15:44):
Which, at its... at the best intentions, it comes from,
"Oh, well, we don't want thisperson to be like... we don't
want our kids to be made fun ofor made to feel different,"
Harvey (15:53):
Which, like, okay, that's legit.
Pen (15:55):
It is. And it's also a fundamental misunderstanding of
if you're telling a child tosuppress their natural
behaviors, maybe they won't getmade fun of by kids at school,
but you're telling them tosuppress their natural
behaviors.
Harvey (16:05):
It's kind of like... to use a probably pretty extreme
analogy, are there ways in whichyou can prevent - you can, like,
lower your risk, potentially, ofbeing sexually assaulted? Sure,
that's also not on you, and itshouldn't be.
Pen (16:18):
Yeah, like... if you are reducing something for the sake
of bullying, that is... I mean,I can appreciate that. Also,
one, the problem isn't your kid,the problem is the people who
are going to bully them. And Iknow that that is not something
that you can necessarily fix. Ithink the solution, really
should generally be seen more ashow do I help my child's
(16:40):
self-confidence?
Harvey (16:41):
Yeah.
Pen (16:41):
What can I do to make them feel secure in themselves so
that the people who are going tobe awful sometimes throughout
their whole life have less of agrip on them?
Harvey (16:52):
Yeah.
Pen (16:53):
Rather than telling them to not be who they are, and to view
parts of them themselves thatare just fundamental to their
very being as wrong orundesirable?
Harvey (17:05):
Yeah, and I'll tell you what, as someone who spent all
of their conscious life,masking, uh, typically
subconsciously, the urge toexpress my neurodivergence, the
urge to stim, the urge to breakdown every time I was in a
Walmart, the urge to just talkand talk and talk about all the
(17:27):
things that I found interesting,that never went away, as much as
I tried to suppress it. Andfrankly, the push for me to mask
kind of just made me feel like afreak.
Pen (17:38):
Yeah, it doesn't actually... it doesn't actually
help, broad strokes. It doesn't.
It can be useful, I think, insome ways, as, like... there's a
difference between masking andcoping skills.
Harvey (17:52):
Yeah.
Pen (17:52):
I think that that is a really, really important thing
to hit on. In like, there is adistinction between... not
always, like, if you are, forexample, overstimulated, trying
to... like, you know, hold out,when you can, until you can get
to a safer place, or being,like, aware that a thing might
(18:21):
bother you and takingappropriate precautions. And you
know, sometimes not mentioningit, or bringing attention to it,
because for attention to bebrought to it, like, if that
would increase your distress.
Harvey (18:34):
And the difference is that that's sort of an internal
process.
Pen (18:37):
Yeah. Or like, um, finding ways to stem that are more
subtle, maybe because you don'twant a ton of attention to be
brought to you. Like, you wantto stim, but you'd like to stim
quietly, just because, like,it's for you. There's a very big
difference between that andhiding it out of shame, or
because you just feel likeyou're supposed to. A lot of it
(19:00):
comes from the intent. Is thepoint of this to care for
yourself, or is the point ofthis to not be wrong, or to hide
a thing that you think isunseemly? Or that you've been
told makes you freakish? Like,is it about judgment from other
(19:21):
people? Or is it about care foryourself?
Harvey (19:24):
Yeah, no, that's...
that's real. And I appreciateyou raising that because
that's... I think that could bea really muddy distinction.
Pen (19:31):
There are complexities for sure, but like, a lot of it, I
think, comes from the internalfeeling.
Harvey (19:35):
I think so, too. The...
and - we were kind of talkingabout this before the episode,
but there was... that there's...
kind of your experience withmasking is different in that you
don't - if I'm - if I'mremembering correctly - you
don't really mask your ADHD asmuch, but you do have a history
of masking your depression.
Pen (19:55):
Yes.
Harvey (19:55):
Which I found interesting.
Pen (19:57):
Yeah, it is. Hm, so I'm doing better now. So -
dramatically, yeah, dramaticallybetter than I used to be, which
is actually... Disco Elysium hasbeen a really cool way to
realize that, because a coupleof years ago, oh, it could have
damaged me so much. And now,like, um, this - this past
(20:20):
Thursday, so like, four daysago, I had a really unfortunate
trauma episode that gottriggered to the point where,
like, I had to come home fromwork because I just needed to be
somewhere I felt safe.
Harvey (20:29):
I'm glad you came home, still.
Pen (20:31):
Me, too. I played Disco Elysium and felt fine, and it
touches on some really, reallyheavy stuff. So you know,
it's... it's nice to have bitsof proof of like, oh, wow, I am
doing better.
Harvey (20:43):
Like, hey, I can actually handle this on a bad
day.
Pen (20:45):
Yeah, like, oh! Cool!
Harvey (20:47):
How about that?
Pen (20:48):
I'm not going to drink.
That's good.
Harvey (20:50):
Oh, the... the... one of the most unfortunate things that
Pen and I have in common is abad relationship with alcohol.
Pen (20:59):
So for a game to heavily touch on alcoholism, and for me
to not feel any compulsion todrink is, like, nice. And you
know, that has come with, um...
like, when I learned about myADHD, and to now, like, I have
been embracing it, pretty much,and... I like talking about
things I'm interested in. I'minterested in my own ADHD. Well,
(21:19):
let's be real, I'm interested inmyself, and also ADHD.
Harvey (21:25):
That's a little bit on the nose.
Pen (21:27):
I mean, I like to talk about myself, I can recognize
these things.
Harvey (21:30):
Hey, self-awareness is a great quality to have,
legitimately.
Pen (21:34):
Thank you. My therapists always talk about it.
Harvey (21:36):
Hey, me, too. Oldest child, only child solidarity.
Pen (21:42):
Yeah, my therapists be like, "Wow, you're really self
aware." Me (21:43):
"Yeah, I didn't have many friends and spent a lot of
time in my own head, and this isalso how I figured out how to
suppress literally, every partof my emotions that I thought
could put me in any sort ofvulnerable state."
Harvey (21:55):
Whoa, look at how that slid right into masking.
Pen (21:58):
Exactly! And so, that is the big difference, is right
now, I'm not hiding things,because I'm doing really well,
and also because sometimes Iwant to assert that. There are
still some things that I dosuppress more like, for example,
responses to sensoryoverstimulation. Some of that
is, there's not really a goodway to express it, because
people don't understand what itmeans.
Harvey (22:18):
Yeah.
Pen (22:19):
And if you're already distressed, trying to explain it
does not help.
Harvey (22:23):
No. Especially depending on the severity with what you...
you respond to sensory overload,and whatnot.
Pen (22:30):
Oh, yeah. I don't know how tell people, "Yeah, I'm wearing
one headphone while I'm workingthe tech desk. It's, uh, for
medical reasons. No, seriously.
Silence freaks me out."
Harvey (22:42):
So fair.
Pen (22:44):
But yeah, yeah. So now, I don't mask as much. I'm sure
there are ways I'm not consciousof it, and there are small
things, but compared to how Iused to be? Let's do circa
2016-2017.
Harvey (22:57):
Sure.
Pen (22:58):
Um, that was the lowest point of my life, no questions
asked. 2017 was a horrible yearfor my mental health. I was
doing really, really, reallyextremely badly. I'm going to
not get into details of it, butI think it is useful in
discussing the ways that Imasked. This was at the point
(23:21):
where I was self harming.
Typically, God, at its worst,like, a few times a week.
Harvey (23:30):
Oh, wow.
Pen (23:31):
It wasn't... I don't think it was often daily, but it might
be every other day.
Harvey (23:35):
Wow.
Pen (23:37):
Yeah, but never do enough to scar, so...
Harvey (23:40):
Well...!
Pen (23:41):
Yeah. It's a thing. Anyway.
And that was, you know, part ofit, too. But yeah, I was doing
absolutely horribly, and I hadbeen doing badly for, like,
quite some time up to thatpoint. But this was when my
emotional instability was at itsworst, no questions.
Harvey (23:59):
Well, and you were starting to think at that time
that you had BPD, didn't you?
Pen (24:03):
Yes, at that point, I did think that. This is... like, it
was the depression. That was it.
And that was, of course, now, Iknow, related to the emotional
instability that's just a partof ADHD. Didn't know that at the
time. Complicated.
Harvey (24:18):
Well, and one of the things that doesn't get talked
about with ADHD - or, excuse me,depression, as much as it
should, is that depression, whenit gets severe enough, can
actually present with psychoticsymptoms. Like, some people
genuinely become so depressedthat they go into periods of
psychosis. And that, combinedwith ADHD, the the emotional
(24:40):
instability, like, that - thatreally can look like something
more quote unquote, severe.
Pen (24:46):
It - It was awful, and I was not even a little bit okay.
Harvey (24:53):
Yeah.
Pen (24:54):
And I hid all of it pretty successfully, um, which is not
good, obviously. But like, thisis the best example I have of
masking is like, you know, I wasself-harming, grabbed a...
[jingling] thanks, Benji.
Harvey (25:15):
Thank you!
Pen (25:16):
Little cat bell. Uh, small knife from the kitchen. No one
noticed. That no one noticed thelittle, like, bits of, like.
Neosporin and band aids that Iwould squirrel away. Wouldn't
notice when I would, uh... like,at work, or during class or
something, would just suddenlyget hit with feeling absolutely
(25:37):
horrible. And you know, I couldalways just put up a blank face,
my well-maintained porcelainmask of like, "No, I'm not
feeling anything." But then whenit would get to be too much, and
I could no longer package awayin the way that I had been since
I was, like, 10, I would go tothe bathroom and sit in the
stall, and just like...
sometimes I would just sitthere, still feeling empty. And
(26:00):
sometimes I would, like, breakdown and sob, and then I would
package it all right back upwithin, like, five minutes.
Harvey (26:09):
Which is something that was very much a thing when we
first met, that you would cry,one, silently, and two, for
like, maybe three minutes at atime, and then it would just be
Pen (26:13):
Yeah, it's... I - I had, like, successfully restrained
over.
myself in a way that was sounhealthy. Like, actually, I
forgot about that. I forgot thatI silently cried.
Harvey (26:34):
It was one of the... it was one of the things about you
that actually made me the mostconcerned when we first met. It
was something I had neverencountered before.
Pen (26:43):
I... it was a thing that I, like, actively learned how to
do. And it was a combination ofnot wanting anyone to know, and
like, being able to break downjust about anywhere, so long as
I could get a couple of minutesof si - of, uh, alone time.
Harvey (27:01):
Yeah.
Pen (27:02):
And also not wanting to be inconvenient. These things were
tied.
Harvey (27:07):
That's so difficult.
Pen (27:08):
Yeah, it was - it was a thing where I was, like, so
certain that any expression ofemotion near another person
would be the thing I was doingwrong.
Harvey (27:14):
Mm...
Pen (27:16):
Yeah, so I didn't share, like, you know, any of that with
anyone. Or if - even if I didshare it with some people, I was
still, like, masking in themajority of my life. It's the
kind of thing - there's so muchthat a person can hide. And I
hid a lot.
Harvey (27:33):
Yeah.
Pen (27:33):
And it didn't mean that people didn't know, I think.
Like, I'm sure... I'm sure therewere people in my life that knew
I wasn't doing great, but Idon't think anybody had the
whole picture.
Harvey (27:48):
Yeah.
Pen (27:50):
I like to think... I have to hope that nobody really had a
good - good full picture of it,because if they did, then then I
would have hoped that they woulddo something, because I was,
again, not to get too detailed,a massive suicide risk.
Harvey (28:12):
Yeah, that's... that's real.
Pen (28:14):
And I hid it!
Harvey (28:17):
Yeah.
Pen (28:17):
None of that was for self-care and self-love.
Harvey (28:20):
No.
Pen (28:20):
The masking was actively also harmful. A person should
not be able to... like, there'snothing healthy about packaging
your emotions away so that youcan designate five minutes out
to go have a breakdown in thebathroom, and then put on your
mask and go right back on withthe rest of your day.
Harvey (28:40):
Yeah, and that's, I think, a very clear example of
how masking can be harmful. Idon't think masking is
exclusively harmful, especiallyif you're doing it intentionally
in a way to protect yourself.
I'm going to channel mytherapist a little bit here, and
- and say something that shewould probably say. And I think
(29:00):
if she was talking to you, she'dprobably say something along the
lines of (29:05):
in certain ways, masking your ADHD in public
serves you in that people don'talways see it, and you can
control when people see it to anextent, so you can decide who
knows and who doesn't. In thecase of your depression, on the
other hand, that decidedly wasnot serving you in the sense
that you were miserable, and itsounds like you wanted help.
Pen (29:27):
Oh, yeah. Like, there are so many just classic cries for
help right in there. And I wasdoing it as quietly as I could,
because I also didn't believethat I would get help.
Harvey (29:39):
Yeah.
Pen (29:40):
I had, like, nothing. I was, uh... Yeah, it was... It
was awful, and it was also, insome ways, just, like, sort of
classic stereotypes in someparts of it, which is fine with
me. But I don't think peoplefully understand what the
stereotypes actually look likesometimes.
Harvey (30:01):
Yeah.
Pen (30:03):
Like, if I could go up to a bathroom and use a Walmart razor
head, and then come right backdown and no one suspected thing
- uh, yeah, people can do that.
Hey, folks? That is sometimeswhat depression just looks like.
Harvey (30:24):
And to me, that's the scariest thing about it. Not the
potential suicidality, not thepresentation with psychosis,
it's how quiet...
Pen (30:32):
Yep.
Harvey (30:33):
...depression can be.
Pen (30:34):
Exactly. Like, "Wow, I never would have guessed you're
depressed!" Think about that.
Because depression is never apretty thing. Depression is
never a manageable thing, justkind of... it's overwhelming and
horrible, and messes with everypart of you. So if someone says,
"Yeah, I'm depressed," and youthink, "I never would have
(30:58):
known," that's a bad sign.
Harvey (31:02):
It's a... it's a sign that they are being as quiet
about it as they, really, theycan be.
Pen (31:09):
And there's no way to be quiet about depression and have
it be healthy.
Harvey (31:14):
Decidedly not. And whereas with, if you don't mind
me talking a little [audio cutsout]
Pen (31:21):
...don't really want to relive more of that, though.
Harvey (31:29):
Sure. You sure you don't need a break?
Pen (31:32):
Yeah. I'm good. I'm just like...
Harvey (31:34):
Okay.
Pen (31:36):
And scene!
Harvey (31:40):
It definitely looks different from a neurodivergent
perspective. Because for me,masking was something that I did
as a child, mostlyunintentionally. Or, not
unintentionally, but I wasn'treally aware of what I was
doing, I think is the way that Iwould phrase that. Because, let
(32:01):
me think, I... basically, wheresort of my - my - my journey,
you could say, with autismstarts, is when I'm a kid. I saw
a...
Pen (32:20):
AAAB...
Harvey (32:21):
What?
Pen (32:22):
AAAB. Assigned autism at birth.
Harvey (32:24):
[Laughter] Nice. That's pretty good. When I was a child,
I was seeing a childpsychologist, because I -
actually, I started ripping myhair out when I was a kid,
because my parents talked aboutmoving, and that stressed me out
so bad that I would just rip myhair out in chunks.
Pen (32:41):
Well, that's not good.
Harvey (32:42):
And, uh, my parents took me to a psychologist, because
they were like, "Hey, what'swrong with this one?" And that's
when I was diagnosed withgeneralized anxiety disorder at
the age of five.
Pen (32:52):
Yeah.
Harvey (32:53):
And now I'm on Wellbutrin about it.
Pen (32:59):
I like the... I like "About it," as phrasing.
Harvey (33:02):
Thank you, thank you. I need to be funny every second of
the day.
Pen (33:04):
Yep.
Harvey (33:06):
And, you know, so I would be seeing this - I'd be
seeing this doctor, and I didn't- it was, like, play therapy,
which is very common withchildren, so I thought I was
just playing with this strangeadult for an hour every week,
and I didn't really know whatwas going on, but Dr. Wren
seemed nice, and she playeddolls with me, so like, cool.
Pen (33:25):
Yeah, dope.
Harvey (33:26):
Yeah. And I found out from my dad years later that,
um, she wanted me evaluated forautism. And that's when I was
pulled out of therapy and didn'tgo back until I was 11.
Pen (33:38):
Yeah...
Harvey (33:39):
I think...
Pen (33:41):
Yeah...
Yikesies.
Harvey (33:41):
Almost entirely because my parents probably just didn't
...for a lot of reasons.
I mean, I get it. Like, I'm surewant me to be autistic.
some of it was, like, I was, youknow, "a gifted kid," which is
to say, undiagnosedneurodivergence, and
hyperfixation, and unhealthyrelationships with academia.
Pen (34:01):
Which is to say, sad. Very sad.
Harvey (34:03):
Very, very sad. And I think, to my parents, not their
credit, but I think, um... tokind of put some of their stuff
into perspective, I think theysaw... if I'm trying to get into
their shoes, I think maybe theysaw that I had some kind of
potential, and they didn't wantto shoot that in the foot. And
(34:26):
maybe - and especially sincethis would have been 2005 that I
would have been in therapy for -for the first time, the kind of
socio- sociocultural stage forneurodivergence was very
different...
Pen (34:43):
Oh, extremely, yeah.
Harvey (34:44):
...than it is now. And that's not to say that it's good
right now, but it's a heck of alot better than it was in 2005.
Pen (34:50):
We talk about it ever, for example. In polite company.
Harvey (34:55):
Exactly. So, I think in many ways an autism diagnosis
then would have been way moredetrimental than it would have
been now. And on the same token,like, I remember - well, I
actually don't remember this,but my dad tells me this, we
went into - my mom wanted to seethis, like, concert for a band.
(35:16):
And it was an indoor venue, andit was huge. And I remember
being - the part that I doremember is being there. And
then I remember that things gotreally, really, really loud as
the band started playing. Andthis is where I don't remember
things, but according to my dad,I just started losing it. Like,
(35:38):
I was - I was crying, I wasstarting to scream a little bit.
Like, it was a meltdown. It wasan autistic, sensory meltdown.
Pen (35:46):
Of course it was.
Harvey (35:47):
And my parents didn't really know why it was
happening, and as far as I know,I think actually, my mom was mad
at me for it. And - at leastthat's my understanding. And so
my mom stays in the concertvenue to continue watching, and
(36:07):
my dad kind of takes me intothis basement area, and
according to him, I just laidthere, catatonic, for an hour or
two. And I remember just - thething that I remember, I don't
remember the events, but Iremember the way it felt. And I
remember just feeling so tiredand confused.
Pen (36:34):
Yeah.
Harvey (36:34):
Because I was upset, and I felt, like, overwhelmed and
tired, and I had no idea why.
And little things like thatwould keep happening. I would -
I would, a lot of the time, justget agitated when I was at the
store with my mom, and I didn'tknow why. And it turned out that
grocery stores, you know, yearslater, I finally figured out
that grocery stores are justreally rough for me,
sensory-wise.
Pen (36:56):
Of course they are. They suck.
Harvey (36:58):
They're awful. I...
screw grocery stores. All myhomies hate grocery stores.
Except Aldi.
Pen (37:05):
Aldi is - there are some things that are okay, and I like
that Hy-Vee is less fluorescentthan Walmart.
Harvey (37:11):
That's true.
Pen (37:11):
But if I can not go to a grocery store, then I'm doing
the correct thing.
Harvey (37:15):
Yes. Oh, God, pickup orders, my beloved. But yeah,
and there were those littlethings. And then it was
always... it was the otherthings, too, where, like...
there's this interesting thingthat happens when you grow up
visibly neurodivergent, even ifyou're trying to a- even if
you're trying to mask, wherepeople do treat you differently
(37:38):
in an almost pitying way.
Pen (37:41):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:42):
'Cause in high school, the second high school that I
went to, I had startedtransitioning. And I think my
transition from feminine tomasculine made my autistic
traits, surprise, surprise, alot more obvious, because now
people were perceiving me as aboy, ostensibly, and I think at
(38:03):
that point, the very clearsymptoms of autism that I had
became way more apparent,because well, that's a - that's
a boys' thing. Like, you know,obviously, people don't say
that, but they kind of thinksubconsciously, "Well, boys get
autism." And I remember, therewere a group of girls that I was
friends with, or at least Iperceived them as friends, and
(38:26):
they did genuinely treat me verywell, and I kind of connected
the dots several years down theline, like I was probably two or
three years out of college - er,I out of high school when I
realized this, that, to anextent, they were definitely
hanging around me because theywere worried, because I was
being pretty badly bullied, fora lot of reasons.
Pen (38:50):
Oh, gee.
Harvey (38:50):
And so it was a genuine - it was a genuine point of
concern. But the thing is, like,and that's where masking gets
tricky, because I thought...
like, I think by the time I gotto high school, I knew that
something was different aboutme, but I didn't quite know what
it was. And people kept tellingme that there was no possible
(39:11):
way that I could be autistic. SoI was thinking, okay, I'm not
autistic, then. So then what isit? So I thought I was masking,
and I thought I was hiding allthese things really well, and I
realized, years down the linethat, like, oh, no, no, I was
visibly autistic, and there werepeople who were genuinely
concerned for me. And that'stricky.
(39:33):
And that's another complicatedpiece of masking. When you want
to do it to an extent becauseyou just - and I mean, this goes
into internalized ableism, toowhere you just want people to
think that you're "normal," andit doesn't work anyway. And I
think that kind of shook myfoundation a little bit, to...
(39:54):
to feel like, no matter what Idid, every... everyone was just
gonna know that there wassomething up with me.
Pen (40:02):
Yep.
Harvey (40:03):
And... and these days, I've sort of come to accept it.
I mean, frankly, being autisticis a very core part of my
identity, and something thatI'm... I don't know if I'm proud
of it yet, but I think I'mgetting there, and I want to be
proud of it at some point. Butit's... it's - it's things like
(40:26):
that, where, I think in someways, if we, you know, because
your perspective is very muchabout how masking can be
harmful, and it can be. Theother side of that, when you
want to mask when you, in someways, want to assimilate,
because the way that you gettreated when you are visibly
neurodivergent sucks.
Pen (40:46):
Yep.
Harvey (40:47):
And it shouldn't be that way.
Pen (40:49):
But that doesn't mean that it isn't.
Harvey (40:51):
Yeah, and...
Pen (40:52):
...just, we can't change that part.
Harvey (40:54):
The thing that is beneficial for me about masking
is that it does allot me a levelof agency that I don't have when
I'm not masking. When I amvisibly neurodivergent, people
make assumptions about my levelof ability. And it's true that
there are some things that I amless able to do than
(41:14):
neurotypical people. It - thatis the whole reason I am
disabled.
Pen (41:19):
Yeah, like that's - this is what this means.
Harvey (41:21):
I am legitimately disabled. There are some things
that I legitimately cannot do.
It's not typically the thingsthat people think I can't do.
Pen (41:28):
Yeah.
Harvey (41:28):
If I tell people I'm autistic, a lot of the time
people implicitly think that I'mstupid. And one, it's just not
nice to call anybody stupid, andalso, people's worth is not
rooted in their intelligence.
Pen (41:42):
It's wholly inaccurate to just... like, it's...
Harvey (41:46):
Also I'm not stupid, I'm really smart.
Pen (41:48):
And it's like, stupid is such a, um, flawed term, because
like...
Harvey (41:53):
It's so nebulous.
Pen (41:55):
Like, what are you actually trying to get across here? Are
you trying to get across thatsomeone can't pick up on certain
concepts as quickly? Because I'mgonna bet you, there are other
concepts that they can pick up abit faster, or even if they
can't pick up all these conceptssuper quickly, what is the point
you're actually trying to make?
Harvey (42:13):
As a heads up, I'm going to say a slur for the sake of an
argument (42:16):
Are you replacing the word retarded with stupid?
Because I kind of feel likethat's what people are doing.
Pen (42:23):
It is. And also, like, there is such a judgment call to
it. And for what?
Harvey (42:30):
I'm kind of just vibing.
Like, yeah, sometimes all I wantto do is just sit here and rock
and make my silly little hummingnoises, but...
Pen (42:36):
That doesn't actually mean anything, folks. Not like you
think it does.
Harvey (42:40):
That doesn't say anything about my intelligence
or my ability, it just meansthat that's kind of the way I
self-regulate.
Pen (42:46):
And that is like, I think, a fundamental misunderstanding
of, uh, particularly like,people will assume that neuro
divergence, mental illness, etcetera, means something other
than what they do. Like, theidea that if you are autistic,
then you cannot pick up onconcepts as quickly. Like, you
(43:10):
don't... that's not... that'sinaccurate. Stop it?
Harvey (43:16):
Well, and see, for me, that is true in certain cases,
that my autism does mean that Idon't pick up on things
particularly well. Things flyover my head every single day.
That doesn't mean that I'munintelligent, and that doesn't
mean that I can't learn.
Pen (43:32):
Nor that there aren't some things that you pick up on
easier than folks who... than,like, neurotypical people.
Harvey (43:39):
Like, I remember things about people extremely well.
Like, sensory needs? Like, theminute someone tells me
something about that, I justremember,
Pen (43:49):
You also understand what it means at all.
Harvey (43:53):
Yeah. And that's by virtue of me being
neurodivergent.
Pen (43:57):
Exactly. And that is not less valuable than, um, grammar
rules. In fact, in living in asociety, I would say, it's a lot
more valuable.
Harvey (44:07):
I think, if I had to pick between not knowing grammar
whatsoever, and not knowing howto - and not having any
emotional intelligence, uh,guess I don't know how to use
grammar.
Pen (44:19):
There, their and they're?
No. I will only be using thewrong one. I actually couldn't.
I don't think even as, like, asa joke, maybe once or twice.
Harvey (44:27):
You are - you are a little bit of the grammar police
and it's - I kind of love thatabout you.
Pen (44:32):
Well, I'm glad you love-
Harvey (44:33):
Well, you're fun about it.
Pen (44:34):
I try!
Harvey (44:34):
You're not like one of those annoying dudes on Reddit
that invalidates your argument.
Pen (44:39):
Because that's not a functional way to do it,
because, shocker, people don'talways learn the same kinds of
things.
Harvey (44:45):
You just dunk on people that are - that are already
being stupid, and they're like,"Well, they used the wrong
there, so..."
Pen (44:52):
I mean, it can be fun in some cases, and also, there's,
uh, certain things,communication, et cetera. I'm
Clippy and I'm unbearable.
Harvey (44:59):
And that's okay! You're not unbearable. You're bearable!
Pen (45:02):
No, it's a thing that can be annoying about me, and that's
okay.
Harvey (45:05):
That doesn't make you unbearable.
Pen (45:06):
I know. It's just a silly joke.
Harvey (45:08):
Oh, autism at work.
Pen (45:10):
Yeah, here we go! Also, like, this is what I mean with,
like, um... people assume thatthey know what stupid means.
Y'all don't. Because you don'tactually, I think, broad
strokes, fully understand whatyou're trying to get across with
that concept.
Harvey (45:28):
Can we just stop calling people stupid?
Pen (45:30):
Can we just not do it?
Harvey (45:31):
That's just... it's just not nice.
Pen (45:33):
And this is... all of this, I hesitate to use terms like
this, because I'm not with thewhole "differently abled" kind
of thing.
Harvey (45:43):
Yeah, that's fair.
Pen (45:44):
That's not - I'm not...
usually because... I'm not intothose kinds of arguments when
they come from a perspective of,like, "Oh, well, there's no...
like everyone has - like,everyone's a little bit ADHD."
Harvey (46:01):
No.
Pen (46:01):
That kind of thing.
Harvey (46:02):
I'm not.
Pen (46:03):
The way that they will be, you know, linked in that kind of
way of like, "Oh, it's justdifferently abled." Like, "No,
you are normal." When it's fromthat perspective, like, "No,
we're all just a little bitdifferent. But like, you know,
we're all really the same." Andit's like, no society is
fundamentally set up soneurotypical people get to exist
and neurodivergent people don't.
Harvey (46:22):
And that's the tricky thing. Like we have to strike
this balance, I think, betweensubstantiating that people with
differences, be they race,sexual orientation, disability
status, like, yes, they are,fundamentally, people. There are
things that are fundamentallytrue of most people, and we
ought to treat them like people.
And also, the ways that theyexperience life are legitimately
(46:46):
different. Sometimes that'sgood, sometimes that's bad,
sometimes it's neither.
Pen (46:54):
Yeah. Like...
Harvey (46:55):
Those have to coexist.
Pen (46:57):
Exactly. The way that a neurodivergent brain works - and
neurodivergent brains all workextraordinarily differently, my
brain and your brain work hugelydifferently.
Harvey (47:10):
And even like my boyfriend, Chris, the ways in
which he is autistic, and theways in which I am autistic are
very different.
Pen (47:17):
Yeah! Like these are all - all true things.
Harvey (47:19):
Believe it or not, autism is a spectrum disorder.
Pen (47:25):
So, you know, it's like, they're all different for sure,
and there can be some advantagesand disadvantages. We're people.
We are people, and this is true.
And also, it is harder to existas a neurodivergent person. This
is why disabled is a functionalterm.
Harvey (47:46):
Yeah, and I think - I think, in some cases,
differently abled makes sense touse, especially when we're
talking - like, I have a lot offeelings about, like,
subthreshold symptomology. Andin some ways, I think if - if a
person who is experiencing somesymptoms of neurodivergence, but
maybe doesn't quite meet thatcut off, maybe they will find
(48:07):
utility in differently abled. Idon't want neurotypical people
telling me that I'm differentlyabled, not disabled? No, no, I'm
disabled.
Pen (48:15):
Exactly. I think it depends heavily on the context of it,
and also who's saying it.
Harvey (48:20):
I think we can have both, and I think also that
disability is not a dirty word.
Pen (48:24):
Disability is not a dirty word, and there's nothing wrong
with looking at the facts of theworld. Just because you are
starting to have empathy forpeople who are different from
you, doesn't mean you have toerase the fact that there are
difficulties in society forthem. I understand that you've
never really had a conversationwith a disabled person before,
(48:44):
and for the first time, you'reactually having to see the world
is different. Saying that "No,you are normal, though," isn't
actually helpful.
Harvey (48:55):
There's a reason that I identify as queer, and it is
because I wholeheartedly resistthe notion that I am normal.
Pen (49:02):
Like, hey, hey? "No, but you you're you're normal. You're
okay." That's not actually...
that doesn't feel good.
Harvey (49:12):
I don't - I don't have to be normal to be okay.
Pen (49:14):
Like, yeah, I - stop trying to tell me that there's not
something different about me,because I promise you, I've
lived in this brain, the wholetime, I've been here. I am
different. And to kind of bringit back around to masking a
little bit, folks, we don't knowwhat's going on in each other's
(49:37):
brains. Like, for real, though.
I haven't met Charles Xavier,the telepath man from X Men.
That's uh... it's for all thosecomic book people out there. I
don't know why I went down thisroute. I don't have anything.
Harvey (49:53):
No, no, please!
Pen (49:54):
We don't know what's going on in each other's brains. We
can only make certainassumptions. And I don't mean
assumptions in a judgmental way.
We make a lot of unconsciousperceptions, it's how human
beings work, it's a form ofcommunication, et cetera.
Harvey (50:07):
It's the only way we really know how to be.
Pen (50:11):
And there's, you know, such thing as, like, knowing more,
challenging some, ya-da-da. Butwe don't fully understand each
other. You can't know for sureif someone else is
neurodivergent or mentally illjust based on their behavior,
because when you live in yourown brain, you can figure out
(50:34):
ways to act differently than youfeel. A person can be really,
horribly depressed, and you canthink that they're doing fine
because they're real good athiding it. A person can be
experiencing really intensesensory processing issues, and
(50:55):
you can not notice anythingexcept that they seem kind of
quiet maybe. We... there's areason the masking is a thing.
Harvey (51:08):
Yeah. It's, in part, because we're taking agency over
who knows what, and how much,frankly, danger and level of
harm we're willing to putourselves at in a given day, and
sometimes it is just riskaversion.
Pen (51:28):
Yep. It's... these are decisions that we make, and some
of them are more conscious thanothers, some of them are because
we're pressured to do them, andsome of them, like... if it
comes from fear, if it - if itcomes from self love and
regulation, like, there are allsorts of ways it can come from,
but you really can't know whatanother person is doing. And,
(51:50):
gosh, if you want to know peoplewho are really good at masking
what they are feeling, if you'renot neurotypical, ooh, oh, you
can get so good at it.
Harvey (52:03):
Very good. For better or for worse.
Pen (52:06):
Yeah. But yeah, that is...
I think it is important to keepit in mind, and also, like, if
you're neurotypical to - toreally, like, try to internalize
that, that you don't know what
Harvey (52:17):
Yeah.
it looks like. Not exactly. Andthat's okay. And it also means,
like, the judgment calls youmake positive, negative,
whatever, are going to befundamentally inaccurate, and
you should challenge them. Andif you are neurodivergent, and
(52:39):
you are masking, and mentallyill and masking, I really
encourage you to think aboutwhy. I'm not saying don't do it,
I'm saying, as much as you'reable, do it out of self care.
Pen (52:54):
Out of self love, and not to suppress yourself.
Harvey (53:00):
I think, kind of to...
again, to channel my therapist,mask if it serves you. And it
can serve you in a lot of ways.
It can keep you safe, and also,sometimes maybe you just - maybe
some days, that's just whatfeels right. But yeah, kind of
to echo Pen's point, like,just... you don't have to be
(53:24):
normal, but that doesn't meanthat there's anything wrong with
you.
Pen (53:28):
Like, we're never gonna be normal, folks. We can't get rid
of these things. I joked earlierabout ADHD being incurable. It's
a truth. I'm going to live withit forever. Trying to pretend I
don't have it will just hurt me,actually.
Harvey (53:44):
Yeah.
Pen (53:45):
But also like, some folks more than others, I know some
people legit are - are of themind of, like, I mean, it's just
nobody else's business. I don'twant to express this in public,
because I just don't think it'sfor other people.
Harvey (54:00):
Like, this is just mine, and mine alone. And that's fine.
Pen (54:03):
That's okay. And there are some people who are like, I want
to keep it kind of on thedown-low, just because I don't
want people to bring attentionto it, and I definitely have
some stuff like that. Like,yeah, I would be open about
this, except that it's going tobe a whole thing, and I'm kind
of just trying to live my life.
Harvey (54:17):
Like, for example, I don't really advertise the fact
that I have PTSD.
Pen (54:21):
Like, sometimes, you just don't want people in your brain,
please.
Harvey (54:26):
Yeah. And it also depends on the person. Like,
people that I meet at the store?
They don't need to know that I'mautistic.
Pen (54:35):
No. And like, maybe you just don't want to deal with
some of the symptoms, too. Like,I will mask some of my sensory
processing issues, in partbecause I don't want to give
them more attention and makethem worse, because if I'm at
work, I can't just turn off thelights.
Harvey (54:51):
It can get a little feedback loopy if you focus on
how you're feeling.
Pen (54:55):
Yeah, sometimes you just do it, straight up, to cope with,
like, this is a situation that'sfully outside of my control.
Harvey (55:02):
And so sometimes you play solitaire instead.
Pen (55:04):
Yeah, like, sometimes you just make yourself less
miserable in the ways that youcan. And there's a difference
between, like, doing thatbecause it's like, well, best of
a bad situation, or doing itbecause you feel ashamed, or
like there's something wrongwith you.
Harvey (55:19):
And the other thing that I'd like to add to that, too, is
like, if you're not ready totake the mask off, that's fine,
too.
Pen (55:25):
It's your choice. We... we make these things ourselves. You
have crafted your own mask, andit can change.
Harvey (55:33):
Oh, yeah.
Pen (55:33):
And...
Harvey (55:34):
Mine has.
Pen (55:36):
And it's different in certain situations, and that's
all okay. This is you. You getto choose what you're putting
out there. Like, when you decideto do these things. Some of them
are impossible to hide. That'snot a failure. This is just you.
This is your brain. But it is upto you. If you never want to
stop masking in public, youdon't have to. Like, Harvey and
(55:59):
I are out here to be advocatesfor neurodivergence. Not
everybody wants to, though.
Harvey (56:06):
Yeah. And it also depends on the context. Like in
in this context, and in academiccontexts, I love to be an
advocate for neurodivergence. Inthe Aldi, not so much.
Pen (56:17):
Yeah. Like, I like being upfront about my ADHD. There's
also a lot of people who don'twant folks to know. There is -
that's fine!
Harvey (56:27):
Yeah.
Pen (56:27):
There is no judgment between us. It's all good.
Harvey (56:32):
The only thing I hope for everyone is that you can...
like, I had to work toward thatyou can let go of some of that
judgment that - that societyunfortunately instills upon you.
Pen (56:47):
I... the great hope here is, whatever you choose to do,
that you are choosing to do itout of... out of care, and out
of love for yourself, and thatyou're not doing it just because
somebody told you to and madeyou feel bad.
Harvey (57:05):
Yeah.
Pen (57:05):
But hey, if you're still working through that, like, I
wasn't gonna stop masking when Iwas horrifically depressed. That
wouldn't necessarily have madethings go better. It can be
complicated.
Harvey (57:17):
And if nothing else, know that you're seen.
Pen (57:20):
Yeah.
Harvey (57:21):
There's one last thought I'd like to share before we,
um... before we wrap up.
Pen (57:26):
Please tell me.
Harvey (57:27):
It's a very quick one.
Autism Awareness Month is thismonth. And in some ways, I
actually want to resist thatnotion. In that I think
promoting autism acceptance is amuch nicer way to do it. People
are aware of me already. Andunfortunately, the narrative
(57:48):
that they get about autisticpeople is skewed, because Autism
Speaks and autism moms onFacebook have a chokehold on the
narrative still. So for thisAutism Acceptance Month, get
used to people who aren'tmasking, and understand that
(58:10):
visible difference is not a badthing, and that you don't know
until someone tells you.
Pen (58:23):
Yeah.
Harvey (58:23):
Really critically examine the ways in which you
evaluate neurodivergence, mentalhealth, so on and so forth. Even
I need to continue to do that.
Pen (58:33):
Yeah, same here. And when you say this month, you mean
April, yes?
Harvey (58:36):
Yes.
Pen (58:36):
Because this will be going up, um, maybe near end of April?
Harvey (58:41):
Yes. April is Autism Awareness Month, but...
Pen (58:43):
May is a mental health thing, too.
Harvey (58:45):
I think, but I don't know what it is off the top of
my head.
Pen (58:47):
It's something green, because my mom has extra green
handkerchiefs and stuff from athing and she wanted to know if
anybody wanted some.
Harvey (58:56):
I'm just gonna say...
Pen (58:57):
...mental health.
Harvey (58:57):
Just gonna say, F Light it up Blue. Red Instead all the
way.
Pen (59:01):
Yeah!
Harvey (59:01):
Autism Speaks is a terrible organization. Don't
support them. Don't donate tothem. Thank you.
Pen (59:06):
Uh-huh! Oh, yeah, May is just straight up Mental Health
Awareness Month.
Harvey (59:11):
Sweet.
Pen (59:11):
And I guess it's a green ribbon, so that's cool.
Harvey (59:15):
Kind of a homophobic color that they picked in the
sense that I - in the sense thatI'm colorblind.
Pen (59:24):
Harvey is - Lemony Snicket voice
Harvey is blue-green colorblind,so they are joking.
Harvey (59:34):
Yes.
Pen (59:34):
There's not actually social implications of the color green.
Harvey (59:37):
Not remotely. I just call everything that's
inconvenient to me homophobic.
Pen (59:41):
Yeah, because it's funny.
Harvey (59:42):
Anyway.
Pen (59:43):
See, I like green. I take it you do not want one of the
extra, like, scarf-bandanathings.
Harvey (59:48):
Honestly, I'd probably take one.
Pen (59:50):
Okay, cool.
Harvey (59:51):
So, stick around for just a few more moments, and
we'll tell you a little bit moreabout how this podcast is run.
Pen (59:56):
Yeah.
Harvey (59:56):
Yeah. [Air kissing noises]
Beyond Introspection is anindependently-run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atByndPodcast, or you can email us
at beyonddot - that's D-O-T -podcast@gmail.com. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify, orwherever you get your podcasts.
(01:00:19):
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description. Gotfeedback for us? Feel free to
reach out on social media, orvia email. We'd love to hear
from everyone. Take care ofyourselves.
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