August 11, 2022 • 38 mins
Harvey and Pen discuss what it means to be proud of neurodivergence, both on a personal and societal level. Also, it's the two-year anniversary of Beyond Introspection!
Featuring: Podcast origin story; The different types of pride and where they come from; Society hurts us, but we've got teeth; A hard won high opinion; Is it pride or is it a refusal to be ashamed?; It's hard to accept yourself, but wow, getting society to do it is a whole other level; Listen to neurodivergent people!; Hey, I'm proud of you. (Checkmate!)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pen (00:00):
Hey everybody, welcome to Beyond intersection, a podcast
(00:14):
about mental health,neurodivergence and how it
impacts literally every aspectof our lives.
Harvey (00:18):
All of them.
Pen (00:19):
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:20):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:20):
And we keep taking breaks a little bit. But you know what?
That's because we live ourlives, and we're doing our best.
Harvey (00:28):
For better or for worse, we are adults. And that means
that we are very busy always.
Pen (00:33):
Also, we both just moved.
Harvey (00:35):
Yeah, like, around probably within what, two weeks
of each other?
Pen (00:38):
Yep.
Harvey (00:39):
Something like that.
Pen (00:40):
And I've been depressed.
Harvey (00:41):
Me too!
Pen (00:42):
Wow!
Harvey & Pen (00:45):
Air high five.
[Laughter]
Pen (00:48):
Yeah, but this is... we're recording in July, but it's
gonna come out in August, whichwill be the two-year anniversary
of doing this podcast.
Harvey (00:59):
God, that's so weird.
Pen (01:00):
It's... it's extremely weird. It's extremely weird.
Harvey (01:03):
And cool.
Pen (01:04):
It is neat! It's - it is weird, and it is neat, and it is
cool. Yeah.
Harvey (01:12):
And so today, what we kind of want to do in honor of
our two-year anniversary, is wewant to, um... kind of talk
about neurodivergence and pride,which was part of kind of the
major crux of what started thispodcast. That just as a general
(01:32):
theme, I think.
Pen (01:32):
Yeah, yeah. It's... to kind of touch on that, like, back
when I - when I first was like,"Hey, Harvey, do you want to do
a podcast with me?"
Harvey (01:41):
And I said, "Sure."
Pen (01:44):
There were a few things that really sparked it. But
the... what sparked you wantingto do it on neurodivergence was
kind of twofold. One was, well,a little bit more. One was that
I was doing... I'd been doinglike a lot of activism work with
queer identity, and alsostudying a lot of queer stuff.
(02:06):
And frankly, I was kind of sickof that being everything for me,
so I wanted to do something thatwasn't about my queerness for
once. Though, obviously, itimpacts neuro divergence and
neurodivergence impacts it.
That's just how things work.
Intersectionality!
Harvey (02:23):
Woo!
Pen (02:23):
Woo! But the... what really - there was a reading that I
did, actually for one of myqueer studies classes, by an
author, and I've mentioned thisbefore, M. Remy Yergeau.
Yeah, yes. And they[inaudible] they are autistic
Harvey (02:38):
Ahh.
and wrote in an extremely neatpiece, a few really good things,
and what - it was the first timethat I'd really thought about
being neurodivergent and proud,was - that was - that was in
(03:03):
part of their piece, and it wasa really compelling thoughts.
And that was one of the thingsthat I brought up with Harvey, I
think way back.
In 2020.
Pen (03:13):
In 20... ugh, no.
Harvey (03:15):
Horrid.
Pen (03:17):
Yeah, so that is... that's kind of, like, what we're
circling back around to, is...
is that concept that sparkedthis podcast, and also last
month was queer Pride Month,and...
Harvey (03:28):
That was fun.
Pen (03:29):
Now it's queer wrath month.
Cishet people, hide yourselves.
I have teeth and I will usethem.
Oh, I didn't see... It'sprobably because I'm not on
social media anymore, but Ididn't see anyone making jokes
about how it was also... wasHonda Accord sale month? That's
(03:50):
the...
Harvey (03:53):
[Laughter] What?!
Pen (03:54):
No like how - like June is... is queer Pride Month, and
for cishet people, it's like,happy Honda Accord sale - I'll
find the reference.
Harvey (04:05):
You know, before we get ahead of ourselves, though
Pen (04:08):
Oh, yes, Harvey.
Harvey (04:08):
Tell me...
Pen (04:09):
Harvey!
Harvey (04:10):
...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week!
Pen (04:13):
Of the existence.
Harvey (04:14):
Of the existence since the last time we recorded.
Pen (04:19):
Yes, my Wahoo! - Wahoo! It's actually... it's kind of
related a little bit to some ofthe things [inaudible]. But I
have been rereading a bit seriesthat I was really into while I
was in high school. That's allI'm gonna say because I don't
want to think more about timeand age.
Harvey (04:39):
That's fair.
Pen (04:40):
But it was, you know, a while ago, the Mortal
Instruments series by CassandraClare. And Infernal Devices.
Folks aren't really into - noone who's listening for this
would care about that.
Harvey (04:49):
I was going to say, I have no idea what this is.
Pen (04:50):
Yeah, it's not - it's not gonna be relevant for people.
But one, it's been nice to, youknow, reread some books that I
haven't read in a while. Two,there's actually some - some
newer ones about one of - acouple of the characters I
actually really, really liked.
And they're queer, too.
Harvey (05:08):
Oh!
Pen (05:08):
Yeah, so that was - that was nice. And it was... it was
really nice to read somethingnew for the first time in a
while, but like, still attachedto something I cared about. And
it was also the first time in awhile that I've read a book and
been like, what? What?! What isthis plot twist? Why would
you...?
Man, that's a - that's, like, alot coming from you. You read
quite a bit.
I do. But it's mostly likefanfiction now. So it's not new
(05:30):
stuff.
Harvey (05:31):
Fanfiction is good.
Pen (05:34):
Oh, it's great. And it's like, such a unique medium, and
I have, like, so much for it.
But there's not twists in thesame way.
Harvey (05:41):
Sure, because it's already an established thing.
Pen (05:44):
But yeah, it was...
actually, one of the books byher was the first one I ever
threw across the room.
Harvey (05:51):
Oh!
Pen (05:52):
Also, one of them was the first that I ever pre-ordered
because I was that excited aboutit coming out.
Harvey (05:56):
Was this the same one that you threw across the room?
Pen (05:58):
No, but that one did make me cry and literally shout at
least once.
Harvey (06:02):
Oh, man.
Pen (06:03):
Which was pretty intense for me.
Harvey (06:04):
I was gonna say, shoot.
Pen (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's... they're - they're something else. But
there's one specific characterwho I'm going to reference a
little bit later when it comesto pride, Magnus Bane, who is a
Warlock and bisexual.
Harvey (06:21):
Oh!
Pen (06:22):
And also Indonesian, not white, which is great. But I've
always been very compelled by...
by Magnus Bane.
Harvey (06:32):
Yeah.
Pen (06:32):
Was related to...
Harvey (06:33):
Also such a name. I like it.
Pen (06:34):
Isn't it?! It's so cool.
Anyway. Harvey, what's yourWahoo! Moment of our Existence?
Harvey (06:42):
Our existence, a.k.a.-
Pen (06:43):
Since the last time we talked.
Harvey (06:46):
Yeah, this one's gonna be probably a little bit wack.
The last time we recorded, I wasdating a person that I am no
longer dating. And that breakuphas proven to be actually really
healthy and good for me.
Pen (07:01):
Good! Yes!
Harvey (07:03):
And oh, man. If he listens to this episode, this is
probably going to sting. Butyeah, I mean, honestly, I'm just
happier. And I'm really, reallygrateful for that.
Pen (07:13):
Yeah, I know that was really hard for you, but it
definitely, I think...
definitely an improvement foryour life overall. Also, if he's
listening to this, like, youdrew boundaries that's on him.
Harvey (07:26):
That's fair.
Pen (07:29):
Yeah, that's... yeah. I'm happy for you, buddy.
Harvey (07:33):
Ah, well, thank you.
Pen (07:35):
Even in our complications there is - there is good to be
found even in the pain.
Harvey (07:42):
That's true. Yeah.
Pen (07:44):
Also, we briefly had to pause because the recording was
being weird. I found the jokethat I was... that I was
thinking about.
It was an old Tumblr.
"Happy Pride all my gay friends,
Harvey (07:52):
Oh, yeah.
and happy Kia summer sales eventtold my straight friends."
Kia summer sales event!Yeah, that sounds right.
Pen (08:02):
See, I don't know cars, because I'm not straight.
Harvey (08:07):
One of these days, we're gonna get accused of being,
like, heterophobic or something.
Pen (08:10):
That would be - we'd have to have more of an audience to
have that, and well...
Harvey (08:14):
Fair point.
Pen (08:14):
Take that, suckers, you're still listening to the podcast?
Yeah, but we're gonna talk aboutpride - being proud, as - as
neurodivergent people.
Harvey (08:27):
Tell me your thoughts Pen.
Pen (08:28):
I have so many thoughts.
Harvey (08:29):
I know this.
Pen (08:31):
Just in general. Well, I was thinking about it, and I've
thought about it a lot, becausethat's... it's such a
complicated thing, bBecause ourneurodivergence is different
than other aspects of ouridentity, which is kind of a not
- nothing statement. Becausethat's like, yeah, that's just
true. Good job, Pen.
Harvey (08:51):
But it's like, well, hang on, we've got more to say.
Pen (08:53):
Yeah. Like, when it comes to something like being
nonbinary, which I am!
Harvey (09:01):
Wow!
Pen (09:03):
Then it's, like, this thing hurts me, but only because of
society.
Harvey (09:09):
Right.
Pen (09:10):
It is, for me, just, like, a fact of myself, and I'm very
proud of the steps that I'vetaken with it, you know?
Harvey (09:15):
Sure.
Pen (09:17):
And when it comes to queer pride, generally, it's kind
of... like, there's that senseof movement, you know, with it,
like, of community.
Harvey (09:23):
Yeah.
Pen (09:24):
Like, we are proud because we're told not to be.
Harvey (09:27):
Sure.
Pen (09:28):
And also because we're cool.
Harvey (09:30):
Yes. Absolutely.
Pen (09:31):
And so there's - there's that with my - with my
bisexuality, and with beingnonbinary, things like that, of
the only reason this ever hurtsme is because of external
things. And my pride is mesaying, I know this about myself
and I refuse to not speak it andnot... and - hurt myself by
(09:51):
pretending just because of you.
Harvey (09:54):
You refuse to apologize for it, too.
Pen (09:55):
Yes, yes. And that's a really hard thing to do, to be
proud like that. Like, you know,being nonbinary especially,
having to correct pronounsconstantly, because there's no
such thing as going stealth whenyou're nonbinary.
Harvey (10:08):
Nope!
Pen (10:09):
Which is, uh, that part sucks! That part just sucks.
Harvey (10:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Pen (10:13):
But again, that's an external thing.
Harvey (10:15):
Sure.
Pen (10:15):
And, when I think about pride, there's - well, there's a
quote from Avatar (10:21):
The Last Airbender that I think about.
Okay.
Which is, "Pride is not theopposite of shame," or- "Shame
is not the opposite of pride,but rather where it draws its
source." And I think that thatis... I... that is a perspective
that I've kind of adopted withit. Like, being proud of
(10:42):
something is refusing to beashamed of it, but it's still
coming from that, I think,largely external points, kind
of. Like, if you are ashamed ofsomething, it's because someone
has made you feel as if youshould be.
Harvey (10:58):
Yeah.
Pen (10:59):
Whether that's like, you know, moral judgments, or just
society being fundamentally bad,sometimes.
Harvey (11:06):
It's just like that.
Pen (11:07):
It is just like that sometimes. And... so with - with
pride in - in my queer identity,that has more to do with, like,
the movement as a whole, and ofme trying to hold that as a form
of resilience. And there aremovements. The MAD Pride
(11:28):
movement, for example, that arebased on like neurodivergence,
and - and being proud of it, andrefusing to be silenced. And I
like that a lot. It also getsless attention.
Harvey (11:38):
Yeah.
Pen (11:39):
And so, being proud of neurodivergence is something
that isn't remotely as, like,considered, or even just
considered acceptable.
Harvey (11:50):
Yeah.
Pen (11:52):
And it's complicated, too, because my ADHD, which is the
root of basically all of myneurodivergence. I still think
my social anxiety has its own,like - its own little roots,
because of how intense it is,comparatively.
Harvey (12:07):
Yeah.
Pen (12:07):
But my ADHD, like, the depression and anxiety suck a
lot.
Harvey (12:13):
Yeah.
Pen (12:14):
And are exacerbated by it, and/or caused by it in the first
place. And, there's... executivedysfunction, and just
fundamental lack of dopamine.
Those are so hard.
Harvey (12:29):
Yeah.
Pen (12:30):
But if I didn't have ADHD, I wouldn't be the same person,
because it's just how I thinkit's the way that my mind is
formed and shaped. It's like...
there's the emotionaldysregulation. And also, there's
the way that my thoughts justrace, and how that's not always
a good thing, but also means Ican make connections so quickly
(12:55):
sometimes, and how it means Ican't understand some things or
there's just going to be a blockand that block is going to lead
to emotions I don't want to haveand lashing out sometimes, but
it also means I do understandsome other things so much better
and easier. And there is thisendless well of creativity and
(13:16):
passion that is just as real asthe endless pit of hurt and
despair.
Harvey (13:29):
Yeah, wow.
Pen (13:30):
And the way that Magnus Bane is connected to this.
He's... I mean, neurodivergenceisn't really talked about much,
at least with him, and so it'snot that, directly. It's... one
of the books that I that I read,one of the new ones, had a line
(13:54):
"He had a hard one high opinionof himself."
And in the context of that part,it was specifically about...
it's not about not seeing yourfaults, or thinking that you're
perfect. Recognizing, knowingyour lows, and your highs, and
(14:16):
yourself, and really believingthat you're not defined by your
worst... it's about leaving thedoor open to change and newness
and vulnerability, because eventhough it can hurt so much, it's
also what makes life worthwhile.
Seeing the good and the bad andstill trying. And with Magnus
(14:39):
specifically, it's... at thatpoint in the book, it was about
being in a moment, and a goodmoment, but knowing that someday
it might be a bad memory thathurts. Or not even a bad memory,
just a painful one.
Harvey (14:57):
Yeah.
Pen (14:58):
And knowing that the only thing you can really do is try
to hope that it won't be, andhow hard that is. And that hard
one high opinion is about seeingall of those things of himself,
and... and seeing that trying asso much more important than all
(15:23):
of the pettiness or the... just- the bad parts.
Harvey (15:26):
Mhm.
Pen (15:28):
And how I would say - like, I really feel that... that line.
That hard one high opinion ofmyself, because I do have a
fairly high opinion of myself,and it is because I know myself.
(15:48):
I know what my lowest low waslike, and I know what my second
lowest low was like, and I knowwhat it's like when I hurt. I
know what it's like when I lashout. I know what it's like for
me to be the worst of myself.
And I know what it's like for meto - for me to be the best of
myself. And all of that is sofundamentally tied up in my
(16:11):
neurodivergence, because whenI'm at the lowest of my lows,
that's when I'm the lowest indepression, and fear, and pain,
and it's so hard to keepyourself open in those moments.
Harvey (16:25):
Yeah.
Pen (16:27):
And how do you decide if that's something you can be
proud of? How do you decide ifthis thing that can hurt you,
and can make this depression sohard, and can cause you to lash
out at people, because you don'tknow how to regulate your own
emotions, because you don't havethe brain chemicals for it? How
(16:47):
can you see that thing and beproud of it? And is it about
being refused - about refusingto be ashamed of it? For me,
it's not so much being proud ofmy ADHD, as it is accepting it.
I lay the parts of me out infront of myself, and I accept
(17:11):
them, and that is the mostradical thing I can do. It is
more radical than just beingproud, consistently, for me.
Harvey (17:21):
Mm. In what way?
Pen (17:23):
Because it's not about not being ashamed. It's about
knowing myself, and seeingmyself and it's not.. and I'll
talk about it, and I'll be openabout it. And it's... I don't
know if I can apply the wordproud to it, because it's just
fundamental to me.
Harvey (17:44):
Sure.
Pen (17:44):
I'm proud of myself for some of the things that I've
done, but when it comes to justme, I don't think it's so much
about pride, as it is that hardone high opinio. That seeing
myself, and accepting myself,and saying, like, yeah, yeah, I
know what you think of me. And Iknow how much my ADHD can hurt.
(18:07):
And I know that I'm not supposedto talk about it. I know that
I'm supposed to... if I manageto regulate my neuro divergence,
that means I don't talk aboutit. That means that I present as
normal as I can. And refusing todo that, because instead, I'm
going to be myself. It's notquite pride for me, but it's, I
(18:34):
think, functionally similar,especially to, like, the queer
pride movement. And that's -that's a lot of things. That's a
lot of - that's tough. But whenI was, I mean, frankly, in the
shower yesterday, it's what Iwas thinking about with like, am
I proud? Am I proud of this?
Harvey (18:53):
Yeah.
Pen (18:53):
So that's me. That's mine.
Harvey (18:55):
Yeah. That's... well, I get the feeling that my half of
explaining my pride is gonna bea lot less... verbose isn't the
word I'm looking for. Well-
Pen (19:07):
That's fair, though.
Harvey (19:08):
Well-spoken. I think mine's gonna pale in comparison
a little bit, but you know what?
That's fine.
Pen (19:15):
We're different people. And I mean, you know, I did a whole,
like, speech about it, insteadof having a more conversational
thing. And, you know, pros andcons.
Harvey (19:24):
Pros and cons. That's very true. Yeah, I mean, this
isn't a question - this is aquestion - I was about to say,
this isn't something that Ithink about very much. That's
not true. I haven't thoughtabout it much in the context of
this podcast. But I do thinkabout from time to time, like,
whether or not I'm proud,whether being autistic is
something that I ought to beproud of. And, hm, you know, I
(19:54):
think when we were starting thispodcast, I think I was coming
out this very much from aperspective of, I just want
people to see me and recognizeme, and understand that people
like me are not fundamentallybroken, or anything like that.
It was - it's notassimilationist. because that
(20:15):
isn't an assimilationistpolitic. Well...
I mean, it errs on theside, because I'm... I'm
Pen (20:18):
Well...
realizing that I think when Istarted, I kind of wanted this
to be sort of a, hey, I'm justlike you except with this one
difference. And the thing is,this is something that we talked
about a lot, that one of mythings that I studied - by the
way, I graduated college - oneof the things that I studied in
(20:42):
my undergrad was queer theory. Istudied a lot of queer theory,
and I got really into it. And Igot really into this notion of
sort of questioning what does itmean to be normal, quote,
unquote? And what parts ofyourself do you lose when you
(21:07):
insist on being normal?
I like that.
Harvey (21:11):
And that's something that I think about a lot, that,
you know, like, what do I reallywant as a neurodivergent person?
Do I want to be seen as everyoneelse? Or do I want to be seen in
my difference, and respected forit, and celebrated for the
(21:32):
person that I am, not in spiteof, but because of my
neurodivergence?
Pen (21:39):
Yeah.
Harvey (21:39):
And this is why I'm not much of a proponent of, like,
Autism Awareness Month, but moreAutism Acceptance Month.
Pen (21:48):
Yes.
Harvey (21:48):
That I really do think that there needs to be this
massive cultural paradigm shiftin the way that neurodivergence
is viewed. I don't talk aboutmyself in a super positive light
most of the time. I'm probably,and this is going to - be this
is going to be counterintuitive,because it's going to be a not
(22:09):
very humble thing to say, Ithink broad strokes, I'm sort of
excessively humble, combinedwith having generally low self
esteem.
Pen (22:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (22:18):
So I'm reluctant to say anything especially positive
about myself, but I'm reallysmart.
Pen (22:24):
Yeah.
Harvey (22:24):
I'm really, really, really smart, and I have
important things to say.
Pen (22:27):
Yeah!
Harvey (22:28):
And that's in part, because of the way that my
autism has me focus on thethings that I care about. I get
so into a topic, and I will makemyself understand every little
part of it until I move on tothe next thing. And sometimes
it's Stardew Valley, other timesit's queer theory and how that
(22:49):
changes, interrupts,facilitates, trans people's
ability to be resilient, whichis what I did my thesis on.
And...
Pen (22:59):
That's cool.
Harvey (22:59):
I should send you that paper.
Pen (23:01):
I would love to read that paper.
Harvey (23:02):
Yeah, I'm gonna, like, email it to you when this
episode's over. But, um... so, Idon't think I'm at the point yet
where I'm proud. I think proudis a strong word. I'm now less
concerned about people justrespecting me. I don't feel like
(23:25):
I need to fight for acceptance.
I feel like I get to chastisepeople until they accept me,
because if they don't, well,that sounds like a them problem.
Pen (23:37):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:38):
That's - that's not something that I need to carry
on my shoulders. That's not myburden. And honestly, for me,
some of this loops back aroundto transmedicalist circles. And
for anybody who's not familiar,the concept of transmedicalism
is the idea that you need genderdysphoria to be trans. And
that's not only scientificallyincorrect if you look at the
(24:02):
psychological evidence for it,but it's also very
western-centric, verywhite-centric, ahistorical, as
well.
Pen (24:10):
I also personally find it, like... that's sort of like,
not-statement because if you -if we define gender dysphoria
as...
Harvey (24:20):
Distress related to gender.
Pen (24:22):
As like, not... as like, yeah, like, any distress related
to being perceived or feelinglike the gender you were
assigned at birth, that's alsojust what being trans is.
Harvey (24:35):
Yeah, like...
Pen (24:35):
It's just not being cis.
Harvey (24:38):
It's a - it's a non argument.
Pen (24:40):
It's the same thing.
Harvey (24:41):
But if I had to pick one side, I would say you don't need
dysphoria. In any case, one ofthe things that's very common in
circles like these is anassimilation as politic. And
there's a lot of... and this iscoming from a real place of
pain, that there's this reallystrong thing around like, "I
(25:01):
wish other trans people," andthey're especially talking about
gender non-conforming andnonbinary trans people who are
like, "I wish that trans peoplewould just be normal because
they're the reason that we arenot accepted by society." Which
is just absurd.
Pen (25:16):
It's a - it's a fundamentally inaccurate
argument.
Harvey (25:21):
But if you're marginalized, you've probably
heard that in other situations,and maybe you felt it a little
bit.
Pen (25:27):
Yeah.
Harvey (25:28):
That's why I was a transmed when I was, like, 16.
It was because I was in a deep -and that's not to excuse the
things that I said or did,because they weren't okay. But I
was coming from a deep place ofpain, and I wasn't being
accepted. My own family wasshunning me to an extent. And so
(25:50):
God, of course, I was reachingfor literally any way for people
to just give me a sliver ofhumanity.
Pen (25:57):
I think the only place those kinds of perspectives can
come from is pain and fear.
Harvey (26:02):
Yeah. And so I think when we started this podcast, I
was - I was still at least alittle bit in denial about being
autistic. I think I knew, but Ididn't really want it to be
true, because it complicated mylife quite a bit.
Pen (26:17):
Yeah. What, like being nonbinary?
Harvey (26:20):
Oh, yeah! Or gay, or disabled...
Pen (26:25):
Yeah.
Harvey (26:26):
So on and so forth. So I think when we started this
podcast, I think that's sort ofthe place that I was at, not to
the extent of, "I wish otherautistic people would just be
normal." Because what? No,that's bonkers. But I think I
was coming from that place ofpain of just wanting people to
give me my humanity, and feelinglike it was my responsibility to
(26:46):
coax that out. And at least now,I've progressed to the point
where I don't feel that way.
That I feel like the point ofthis podcast, for me, is not to
make people accept me, but toprovide the neurodivergent
perspective that is almost neverconsidered...
Pen (27:07):
Yeah.
Harvey (27:07):
...in the way that it should be, because we have
important insight on things.
Pen (27:11):
Yeah.
Harvey (27:12):
Especially the way that the world is just fundamentally
set up to punch down and makepeople feel small. Even
neurotypical people.
Pen (27:20):
Oh, yeah.
Harvey (27:23):
And all of this is tied into capitalism.
Pen (27:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not to be a socialist, but also...
Harvey (27:29):
But also, if you're not profitable, then you are
considered completely andutterly useless.
Pen (27:34):
Worse than useless.
Detrimental. Something to betrimmed away.
Harvey (27:40):
And so, I don't think I'm proud yet. But I think I'm
getting closer. I think this isa step closer to pride. And I
mean, gosh, queer - queer pridetook me a long time, too. So
maybe that this is maybe this isjust my process of developing
neurodivergence pride.
Pen (27:59):
Well, you know, what, Harvey?
Harvey (28:00):
What's that?
Pen (28:01):
I'm proud of you.
Harvey (28:02):
Oh!
Pen (28:03):
I'm proud of... because I've seen you on this particular
journey.
Harvey (28:07):
You've known me since I was 18. I'm 22 now.
Pen (28:11):
I have known you the entire time that you have, like, out
loud said, "I think I might beautistic." Like, that slow
realization, which, you know, Imight have hap- like, might have
started before we met, inlike...
Harvey (28:29):
The - kind of the inklings were in my brain that
something was different aboutme, but I think I refused to
label it autism.
Pen (28:36):
I have known you since you started saying at least to other
people, "I think this might bean autism moment in my brain."
And... and I've also known you,as your your journey through
anxiety has really majorlyshifted.
Harvey (28:53):
Yeah. Thanks, medication.
Pen (28:55):
Seriously. But seeing you go from like, "Well, I don't
know if I'm autistic," to (29:00):
I don't know if I really count as
autistic if I'm not getting adiagnosis," and, "I don't know
if I want a diagnosis, but also,if I don't get a diagnosis, am I
really autistic?" To like, justsaying, "I am autistic."
Claiming that as your own andnot needing someone else to say
it for you. All of that, and I'mproud of you. Because it's not
(29:25):
easy to do any of that. It's notbecause we're not supposed to.
We aren't supposed to. Never.
Harvey (29:31):
We're not supposed to take this for ourselves.
Pen (29:33):
Never!
Harvey (29:34):
That neurodivergence is - is - is posited as this thing
that is bestowed upon you by thegreat Gods of Psychiatry.
Pen (29:42):
Who I really cannot stress enough, I'm so annoyed by.
Harvey (29:48):
Yeah. And if it's... if it's not a death sentence,
it's... I mean, it feels likeyou have been - what been
bestowed upon you is adisability. But that doesn't -
that disability doesn't startwhen you receive your diagnosis.
If anything, receiving thatdiagnosis, or just understanding
(30:11):
that you fit into a particularlabel, because diagnosis is not
all that important. Having thatlanguage makes it make sense.
And then you can find ways towork around it. And with it.
Pen (30:26):
Yes, yes! With it. It - when we are told, hey, this is
the way that you areneurodivergent. And I really...
I want to stress that a lot ofthis is specifically about
neurodivergence in terms ofthese things that are with us
since birth. These things thatare with us always. These these
chronic things. These incurablethings. And ADHD and autism are,
(30:50):
I think, like, kind of theclassic ones there. I'm not
talking about my depression. I'mnot talking about my social
anxiety, those just suck.
Harvey (30:59):
Other things - but just as reference, other things that
sometimes count isneurodivergence, OCD counts as
neurodivergence, a lot ofpsychotic disorders, such as
schizophrenia. Obviously, wecan't speak on those, because
neither of us have those to ourknowledge. But there are other
kinds of neurodivergence thataren't just ours.
Pen (31:18):
Yes, absolutely.
Harvey (31:19):
But it's those things that fundamentally change the
way that your brain works.
Pen (31:25):
And that's... it's complicated. And that
complication, like when we getthe diagnosis, it's supposed -
it is a professional saying,here's what's wrong with you.
Harvey (31:38):
Pretty much.
Pen (31:39):
Or to our guardians, here's what's wrong with your kid. And
that's how it's posited, andthat's how it's presented. And
that's like... that's why I cantotally be with, like, the MAD
pride movement and things likethat, because the point of it
is, screw you. It's... you don'tget to say how I am and how I
(32:02):
feel about this. You don't getto silence me. You don't get to
kill me anymore. You don't getto electrocute my brain, just
because you hate me, justbecause this is wrong to you.
And with that, in an activistsense, I am unashamedly proud of
(32:22):
being neurodivergent, and no onecan ever silence me on that.
Harvey (32:27):
Yeah.
Pen (32:28):
But then from that personal perspective, it's more
complicated than pride. Likethis is, you know, I can be
proud of, like, some fanfiction,I wrote, but how do I figure out
if I'm proud of a thing thathurts me and heals me and just
is me.
Harvey (32:48):
You know, Pen, I'm proud of you, too.
Pen (32:51):
Aww!
Harvey (32:52):
See? You understand how it feels now! Checkmate.
Pen (32:58):
It's - that's sweet.
Harvey (33:00):
It's, um... Yeah, I mean, I've also known you for
the past four years. We met atthe same time. We've told that
story before. Yes, I...
Pen (33:09):
Sorry, the phrase, "We met at the same time," is really
funny
Harvey (33:12):
It was meant to be funny.
Pen (33:13):
Good.
Harvey (33:14):
Kind of along the lines of, "I was born and incredibly
young age." I know, at least asfar as I can remember, I
remember the ways in which thisused to be a lot harder for you,
that it was harder to accept theways in which maybe sometimes
you're neurodivergence led youto be unkind to people, or
(33:37):
unkind to yourself, strugglingto move through the world. And
it's... if nothing else, atleast from my perspective, it's
nice to see you take that andgo, maybe this isn't the best
thing about me, and maybe thishurts me and other people, but
it's me, and I'm not gonna getanywhere by beating down on
(33:58):
myself for it. So I won't.
Pen (34:00):
That is.. that is exactly it. It's... thank you. It's nice
to be seen. And that is - thatis the thing for me. Like, I
can't say - I think - I don'tthink I can say whether or not I
am proud of my neurodivergence,but I can say that I've accepted
it. And because it's afundamental part of me, I would
(34:23):
not be myself if I didn't haveADHD. It's part of how my brain
is.
Harvey (34:30):
And it's part of you.
Pen (34:31):
And it's part of me! And I have accepted myself, and I've
looked at all the parts ofmyself and I've decided, yeah, I
like this one. And that means -that is the hard one high
opinion. That is me looking atmy ADHD and deciding because
it's part of me, yeah. I likethis one.
Harvey (34:55):
Yeah. You know, I - in my opinion, if we're - if we're
keeping with the theme ofradical self acceptance, which I
am. And not just radical selfacceptance, but radical self
love, though, radical selfacceptance is the first part of
that, thereby, the first step topride is self acceptance. And,
(35:19):
hey, we're there. That'simportant.
Pen (35:22):
That's major.
Harvey (35:24):
So, I don't know, maybe we see how we're doing in about
a year.
Pen (35:28):
Yeah. And this... I imagine there are, you know, other -
other neurodivergent peoplelistening to this, and maybe not
knowing the answer to thequestion of whether they're
proud of it, or maybe knowingthe answer. And if that's no,
that's you. We're not looking tochange your mind.
Harvey (35:49):
No.
Pen (35:49):
And if the answer is yes, good for you.
Harvey (35:52):
Cool, join the club.
Well, we're not quite there yet.
We're - we're - we're fillingout the paperwork, still.
Pen (35:59):
There's so many forms.
Harvey (36:02):
It's actually kind of ableist. I don't know what they
were thinking.
Pen (36:07):
Observational humor. But wherever you are, and none of
this is us trying to changeanybody's mind, this is all just
a perspective of it. And I thinka very - a very important one.
And I think we should talk - weshould talk about neurodivergent
pride, because we should talkabout neurodivergence, and we
should talk about it assomething more than a harmful
(36:29):
thing,
Harvey (36:30):
Because it's not exclusively.
Pen (36:32):
And that means we have to talk about the idea of loving
it.
Harvey (36:37):
Not in spite of it, but loving it. And loving the way
that it makes you feel, andloving the way that it changes
you.
Pen (36:43):
The way that it is. If we're going to talk about
neurodivergence as more thanjust harm, we have to talk about
it as not just a theoreticalpositive but as a positive. And
that I'll do proudly. Checkmate.
Harvey (37:02):
You know what, I think that is an excellent note to
wrap this one up on. So, happytwo years, Pen to our podcast
relationship.
Pen (37:13):
I'm 24! [Laughter] Happy 2 years, Harvey.
Harvey (37:24):
Is that a reference to the Vine?
Pen (37:26):
That's a reference to the Vine.
Harvey (37:27):
Cool. Okay, stick around for just a few more moments, and
hopefully for the next year, andwe'll tell you a little bit more
about how this podcast is made.
Beyond introspection is anindependently run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atBYNDpodcast. Or you can email us
(37:48):
at beyonddot—that's D O T—podcast@gmail.com. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description. Gotfeedback for us? Feel free to
reach out on social media or viaemail. We'd love to hear from
everyone. Take care ofyourselves.
Hey everybody, welcome to Beyond intersection, a podcast
(00:14):
about mental health,neurodivergence and how it
impacts literally every aspectof our lives.
Harvey (00:18):
All of them.
Pen (00:19):
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:20):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:20):
And we keep taking breaks a little bit. But you know what?
That's because we live ourlives, and we're doing our best.
Harvey (00:28):
For better or for worse, we are adults. And that means
that we are very busy always.
Pen (00:33):
Also, we both just moved.
Harvey (00:35):
Yeah, like, around probably within what, two weeks
of each other?
Pen (00:38):
Yep.
Harvey (00:39):
Something like that.
Pen (00:40):
And I've been depressed.
Harvey (00:41):
Me too!
Pen (00:42):
Wow!
Harvey & Pen (00:45):
Air high five.
[Laughter]
Pen (00:48):
Yeah, but this is... we're recording in July, but it's
gonna come out in August, whichwill be the two-year anniversary
of doing this podcast.
Harvey (00:59):
God, that's so weird.
Pen (01:00):
It's... it's extremely weird. It's extremely weird.
Harvey (01:03):
And cool.
Pen (01:04):
It is neat! It's - it is weird, and it is neat, and it is
cool. Yeah.
Harvey (01:12):
And so today, what we kind of want to do in honor of
our two-year anniversary, is wewant to, um... kind of talk
about neurodivergence and pride,which was part of kind of the
major crux of what started thispodcast. That just as a general
(01:32):
theme, I think.
Pen (01:32):
Yeah, yeah. It's... to kind of touch on that, like, back
when I - when I first was like,"Hey, Harvey, do you want to do
a podcast with me?"
Harvey (01:41):
And I said, "Sure."
Pen (01:44):
There were a few things that really sparked it. But
the... what sparked you wantingto do it on neurodivergence was
kind of twofold. One was, well,a little bit more. One was that
I was doing... I'd been doinglike a lot of activism work with
queer identity, and alsostudying a lot of queer stuff.
(02:06):
And frankly, I was kind of sickof that being everything for me,
so I wanted to do something thatwasn't about my queerness for
once. Though, obviously, itimpacts neuro divergence and
neurodivergence impacts it.
That's just how things work.
Intersectionality!
Harvey (02:23):
Woo!
Pen (02:23):
Woo! But the... what really - there was a reading that I
did, actually for one of myqueer studies classes, by an
author, and I've mentioned thisbefore, M. Remy Yergeau.
Yeah, yes. And they[inaudible] they are autistic
Harvey (02:38):
Ahh.
and wrote in an extremely neatpiece, a few really good things,
and what - it was the first timethat I'd really thought about
being neurodivergent and proud,was - that was - that was in
(03:03):
part of their piece, and it wasa really compelling thoughts.
And that was one of the thingsthat I brought up with Harvey, I
think way back.
In 2020.
Pen (03:13):
In 20... ugh, no.
Harvey (03:15):
Horrid.
Pen (03:17):
Yeah, so that is... that's kind of, like, what we're
circling back around to, is...
is that concept that sparkedthis podcast, and also last
month was queer Pride Month,and...
Harvey (03:28):
That was fun.
Pen (03:29):
Now it's queer wrath month.
Cishet people, hide yourselves.
I have teeth and I will usethem.
Oh, I didn't see... It'sprobably because I'm not on
social media anymore, but Ididn't see anyone making jokes
about how it was also... wasHonda Accord sale month? That's
(03:50):
the...
Harvey (03:53):
[Laughter] What?!
Pen (03:54):
No like how - like June is... is queer Pride Month, and
for cishet people, it's like,happy Honda Accord sale - I'll
find the reference.
Harvey (04:05):
You know, before we get ahead of ourselves, though
Pen (04:08):
Oh, yes, Harvey.
Harvey (04:08):
Tell me...
Pen (04:09):
Harvey!
Harvey (04:10):
...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week!
Pen (04:13):
Of the existence.
Harvey (04:14):
Of the existence since the last time we recorded.
Pen (04:19):
Yes, my Wahoo! - Wahoo! It's actually... it's kind of
related a little bit to some ofthe things [inaudible]. But I
have been rereading a bit seriesthat I was really into while I
was in high school. That's allI'm gonna say because I don't
want to think more about timeand age.
Harvey (04:39):
That's fair.
Pen (04:40):
But it was, you know, a while ago, the Mortal
Instruments series by CassandraClare. And Infernal Devices.
Folks aren't really into - noone who's listening for this
would care about that.
Harvey (04:49):
I was going to say, I have no idea what this is.
Pen (04:50):
Yeah, it's not - it's not gonna be relevant for people.
But one, it's been nice to, youknow, reread some books that I
haven't read in a while. Two,there's actually some - some
newer ones about one of - acouple of the characters I
actually really, really liked.
And they're queer, too.
Harvey (05:08):
Oh!
Pen (05:08):
Yeah, so that was - that was nice. And it was... it was
really nice to read somethingnew for the first time in a
while, but like, still attachedto something I cared about. And
it was also the first time in awhile that I've read a book and
been like, what? What?! What isthis plot twist? Why would
you...?
Man, that's a - that's, like, alot coming from you. You read
quite a bit.
I do. But it's mostly likefanfiction now. So it's not new
(05:30):
stuff.
Harvey (05:31):
Fanfiction is good.
Pen (05:34):
Oh, it's great. And it's like, such a unique medium, and
I have, like, so much for it.
But there's not twists in thesame way.
Harvey (05:41):
Sure, because it's already an established thing.
Pen (05:44):
But yeah, it was...
actually, one of the books byher was the first one I ever
threw across the room.
Harvey (05:51):
Oh!
Pen (05:52):
Also, one of them was the first that I ever pre-ordered
because I was that excited aboutit coming out.
Harvey (05:56):
Was this the same one that you threw across the room?
Pen (05:58):
No, but that one did make me cry and literally shout at
least once.
Harvey (06:02):
Oh, man.
Pen (06:03):
Which was pretty intense for me.
Harvey (06:04):
I was gonna say, shoot.
Pen (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's... they're - they're something else. But
there's one specific characterwho I'm going to reference a
little bit later when it comesto pride, Magnus Bane, who is a
Warlock and bisexual.
Harvey (06:21):
Oh!
Pen (06:22):
And also Indonesian, not white, which is great. But I've
always been very compelled by...
by Magnus Bane.
Harvey (06:32):
Yeah.
Pen (06:32):
Was related to...
Harvey (06:33):
Also such a name. I like it.
Pen (06:34):
Isn't it?! It's so cool.
Anyway. Harvey, what's yourWahoo! Moment of our Existence?
Harvey (06:42):
Our existence, a.k.a.-
Pen (06:43):
Since the last time we talked.
Harvey (06:46):
Yeah, this one's gonna be probably a little bit wack.
The last time we recorded, I wasdating a person that I am no
longer dating. And that breakuphas proven to be actually really
healthy and good for me.
Pen (07:01):
Good! Yes!
Harvey (07:03):
And oh, man. If he listens to this episode, this is
probably going to sting. Butyeah, I mean, honestly, I'm just
happier. And I'm really, reallygrateful for that.
Pen (07:13):
Yeah, I know that was really hard for you, but it
definitely, I think...
definitely an improvement foryour life overall. Also, if he's
listening to this, like, youdrew boundaries that's on him.
Harvey (07:26):
That's fair.
Pen (07:29):
Yeah, that's... yeah. I'm happy for you, buddy.
Harvey (07:33):
Ah, well, thank you.
Pen (07:35):
Even in our complications there is - there is good to be
found even in the pain.
Harvey (07:42):
That's true. Yeah.
Pen (07:44):
Also, we briefly had to pause because the recording was
being weird. I found the jokethat I was... that I was
thinking about.
It was an old Tumblr.
"Happy Pride all my gay friends,
Harvey (07:52):
Oh, yeah.
and happy Kia summer sales eventtold my straight friends."
Kia summer sales event!Yeah, that sounds right.
Pen (08:02):
See, I don't know cars, because I'm not straight.
Harvey (08:07):
One of these days, we're gonna get accused of being,
like, heterophobic or something.
Pen (08:10):
That would be - we'd have to have more of an audience to
have that, and well...
Harvey (08:14):
Fair point.
Pen (08:14):
Take that, suckers, you're still listening to the podcast?
Yeah, but we're gonna talk aboutpride - being proud, as - as
neurodivergent people.
Harvey (08:27):
Tell me your thoughts Pen.
Pen (08:28):
I have so many thoughts.
Harvey (08:29):
I know this.
Pen (08:31):
Just in general. Well, I was thinking about it, and I've
thought about it a lot, becausethat's... it's such a
complicated thing, bBecause ourneurodivergence is different
than other aspects of ouridentity, which is kind of a not
- nothing statement. Becausethat's like, yeah, that's just
true. Good job, Pen.
Harvey (08:51):
But it's like, well, hang on, we've got more to say.
Pen (08:53):
Yeah. Like, when it comes to something like being
nonbinary, which I am!
Harvey (09:01):
Wow!
Pen (09:03):
Then it's, like, this thing hurts me, but only because of
society.
Harvey (09:09):
Right.
Pen (09:10):
It is, for me, just, like, a fact of myself, and I'm very
proud of the steps that I'vetaken with it, you know?
Harvey (09:15):
Sure.
Pen (09:17):
And when it comes to queer pride, generally, it's kind
of... like, there's that senseof movement, you know, with it,
like, of community.
Harvey (09:23):
Yeah.
Pen (09:24):
Like, we are proud because we're told not to be.
Harvey (09:27):
Sure.
Pen (09:28):
And also because we're cool.
Harvey (09:30):
Yes. Absolutely.
Pen (09:31):
And so there's - there's that with my - with my
bisexuality, and with beingnonbinary, things like that, of
the only reason this ever hurtsme is because of external
things. And my pride is mesaying, I know this about myself
and I refuse to not speak it andnot... and - hurt myself by
(09:51):
pretending just because of you.
Harvey (09:54):
You refuse to apologize for it, too.
Pen (09:55):
Yes, yes. And that's a really hard thing to do, to be
proud like that. Like, you know,being nonbinary especially,
having to correct pronounsconstantly, because there's no
such thing as going stealth whenyou're nonbinary.
Harvey (10:08):
Nope!
Pen (10:09):
Which is, uh, that part sucks! That part just sucks.
Harvey (10:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Pen (10:13):
But again, that's an external thing.
Harvey (10:15):
Sure.
Pen (10:15):
And, when I think about pride, there's - well, there's a
quote from Avatar (10:21):
The Last Airbender that I think about.
Okay.
Which is, "Pride is not theopposite of shame," or- "Shame
is not the opposite of pride,but rather where it draws its
source." And I think that thatis... I... that is a perspective
that I've kind of adopted withit. Like, being proud of
(10:42):
something is refusing to beashamed of it, but it's still
coming from that, I think,largely external points, kind
of. Like, if you are ashamed ofsomething, it's because someone
has made you feel as if youshould be.
Harvey (10:58):
Yeah.
Pen (10:59):
Whether that's like, you know, moral judgments, or just
society being fundamentally bad,sometimes.
Harvey (11:06):
It's just like that.
Pen (11:07):
It is just like that sometimes. And... so with - with
pride in - in my queer identity,that has more to do with, like,
the movement as a whole, and ofme trying to hold that as a form
of resilience. And there aremovements. The MAD Pride
(11:28):
movement, for example, that arebased on like neurodivergence,
and - and being proud of it, andrefusing to be silenced. And I
like that a lot. It also getsless attention.
Harvey (11:38):
Yeah.
Pen (11:39):
And so, being proud of neurodivergence is something
that isn't remotely as, like,considered, or even just
considered acceptable.
Harvey (11:50):
Yeah.
Pen (11:52):
And it's complicated, too, because my ADHD, which is the
root of basically all of myneurodivergence. I still think
my social anxiety has its own,like - its own little roots,
because of how intense it is,comparatively.
Harvey (12:07):
Yeah.
Pen (12:07):
But my ADHD, like, the depression and anxiety suck a
lot.
Harvey (12:13):
Yeah.
Pen (12:14):
And are exacerbated by it, and/or caused by it in the first
place. And, there's... executivedysfunction, and just
fundamental lack of dopamine.
Those are so hard.
Harvey (12:29):
Yeah.
Pen (12:30):
But if I didn't have ADHD, I wouldn't be the same person,
because it's just how I thinkit's the way that my mind is
formed and shaped. It's like...
there's the emotionaldysregulation. And also, there's
the way that my thoughts justrace, and how that's not always
a good thing, but also means Ican make connections so quickly
(12:55):
sometimes, and how it means Ican't understand some things or
there's just going to be a blockand that block is going to lead
to emotions I don't want to haveand lashing out sometimes, but
it also means I do understandsome other things so much better
and easier. And there is thisendless well of creativity and
(13:16):
passion that is just as real asthe endless pit of hurt and
despair.
Harvey (13:29):
Yeah, wow.
Pen (13:30):
And the way that Magnus Bane is connected to this.
He's... I mean, neurodivergenceisn't really talked about much,
at least with him, and so it'snot that, directly. It's... one
of the books that I that I read,one of the new ones, had a line
(13:54):
"He had a hard one high opinionof himself."
And in the context of that part,it was specifically about...
it's not about not seeing yourfaults, or thinking that you're
perfect. Recognizing, knowingyour lows, and your highs, and
(14:16):
yourself, and really believingthat you're not defined by your
worst... it's about leaving thedoor open to change and newness
and vulnerability, because eventhough it can hurt so much, it's
also what makes life worthwhile.
Seeing the good and the bad andstill trying. And with Magnus
(14:39):
specifically, it's... at thatpoint in the book, it was about
being in a moment, and a goodmoment, but knowing that someday
it might be a bad memory thathurts. Or not even a bad memory,
just a painful one.
Harvey (14:57):
Yeah.
Pen (14:58):
And knowing that the only thing you can really do is try
to hope that it won't be, andhow hard that is. And that hard
one high opinion is about seeingall of those things of himself,
and... and seeing that trying asso much more important than all
(15:23):
of the pettiness or the... just- the bad parts.
Harvey (15:26):
Mhm.
Pen (15:28):
And how I would say - like, I really feel that... that line.
That hard one high opinion ofmyself, because I do have a
fairly high opinion of myself,and it is because I know myself.
(15:48):
I know what my lowest low waslike, and I know what my second
lowest low was like, and I knowwhat it's like when I hurt. I
know what it's like when I lashout. I know what it's like for
me to be the worst of myself.
And I know what it's like for meto - for me to be the best of
myself. And all of that is sofundamentally tied up in my
(16:11):
neurodivergence, because whenI'm at the lowest of my lows,
that's when I'm the lowest indepression, and fear, and pain,
and it's so hard to keepyourself open in those moments.
Harvey (16:25):
Yeah.
Pen (16:27):
And how do you decide if that's something you can be
proud of? How do you decide ifthis thing that can hurt you,
and can make this depression sohard, and can cause you to lash
out at people, because you don'tknow how to regulate your own
emotions, because you don't havethe brain chemicals for it? How
(16:47):
can you see that thing and beproud of it? And is it about
being refused - about refusingto be ashamed of it? For me,
it's not so much being proud ofmy ADHD, as it is accepting it.
I lay the parts of me out infront of myself, and I accept
(17:11):
them, and that is the mostradical thing I can do. It is
more radical than just beingproud, consistently, for me.
Harvey (17:21):
Mm. In what way?
Pen (17:23):
Because it's not about not being ashamed. It's about
knowing myself, and seeingmyself and it's not.. and I'll
talk about it, and I'll be openabout it. And it's... I don't
know if I can apply the wordproud to it, because it's just
fundamental to me.
Harvey (17:44):
Sure.
Pen (17:44):
I'm proud of myself for some of the things that I've
done, but when it comes to justme, I don't think it's so much
about pride, as it is that hardone high opinio. That seeing
myself, and accepting myself,and saying, like, yeah, yeah, I
know what you think of me. And Iknow how much my ADHD can hurt.
(18:07):
And I know that I'm not supposedto talk about it. I know that
I'm supposed to... if I manageto regulate my neuro divergence,
that means I don't talk aboutit. That means that I present as
normal as I can. And refusing todo that, because instead, I'm
going to be myself. It's notquite pride for me, but it's, I
(18:34):
think, functionally similar,especially to, like, the queer
pride movement. And that's -that's a lot of things. That's a
lot of - that's tough. But whenI was, I mean, frankly, in the
shower yesterday, it's what Iwas thinking about with like, am
I proud? Am I proud of this?
Harvey (18:53):
Yeah.
Pen (18:53):
So that's me. That's mine.
Harvey (18:55):
Yeah. That's... well, I get the feeling that my half of
explaining my pride is gonna bea lot less... verbose isn't the
word I'm looking for. Well-
Pen (19:07):
That's fair, though.
Harvey (19:08):
Well-spoken. I think mine's gonna pale in comparison
a little bit, but you know what?
That's fine.
Pen (19:15):
We're different people. And I mean, you know, I did a whole,
like, speech about it, insteadof having a more conversational
thing. And, you know, pros andcons.
Harvey (19:24):
Pros and cons. That's very true. Yeah, I mean, this
isn't a question - this is aquestion - I was about to say,
this isn't something that Ithink about very much. That's
not true. I haven't thoughtabout it much in the context of
this podcast. But I do thinkabout from time to time, like,
whether or not I'm proud,whether being autistic is
something that I ought to beproud of. And, hm, you know, I
(19:54):
think when we were starting thispodcast, I think I was coming
out this very much from aperspective of, I just want
people to see me and recognizeme, and understand that people
like me are not fundamentallybroken, or anything like that.
It was - it's notassimilationist. because that
(20:15):
isn't an assimilationistpolitic. Well...
I mean, it errs on theside, because I'm... I'm
Pen (20:18):
Well...
realizing that I think when Istarted, I kind of wanted this
to be sort of a, hey, I'm justlike you except with this one
difference. And the thing is,this is something that we talked
about a lot, that one of mythings that I studied - by the
way, I graduated college - oneof the things that I studied in
(20:42):
my undergrad was queer theory. Istudied a lot of queer theory,
and I got really into it. And Igot really into this notion of
sort of questioning what does itmean to be normal, quote,
unquote? And what parts ofyourself do you lose when you
(21:07):
insist on being normal?
I like that.
Harvey (21:11):
And that's something that I think about a lot, that,
you know, like, what do I reallywant as a neurodivergent person?
Do I want to be seen as everyoneelse? Or do I want to be seen in
my difference, and respected forit, and celebrated for the
(21:32):
person that I am, not in spiteof, but because of my
neurodivergence?
Pen (21:39):
Yeah.
Harvey (21:39):
And this is why I'm not much of a proponent of, like,
Autism Awareness Month, but moreAutism Acceptance Month.
Pen (21:48):
Yes.
Harvey (21:48):
That I really do think that there needs to be this
massive cultural paradigm shiftin the way that neurodivergence
is viewed. I don't talk aboutmyself in a super positive light
most of the time. I'm probably,and this is going to - be this
is going to be counterintuitive,because it's going to be a not
(22:09):
very humble thing to say, Ithink broad strokes, I'm sort of
excessively humble, combinedwith having generally low self
esteem.
Pen (22:17):
Yeah.
Harvey (22:18):
So I'm reluctant to say anything especially positive
about myself, but I'm reallysmart.
Pen (22:24):
Yeah.
Harvey (22:24):
I'm really, really, really smart, and I have
important things to say.
Pen (22:27):
Yeah!
Harvey (22:28):
And that's in part, because of the way that my
autism has me focus on thethings that I care about. I get
so into a topic, and I will makemyself understand every little
part of it until I move on tothe next thing. And sometimes
it's Stardew Valley, other timesit's queer theory and how that
(22:49):
changes, interrupts,facilitates, trans people's
ability to be resilient, whichis what I did my thesis on.
And...
Pen (22:59):
That's cool.
Harvey (22:59):
I should send you that paper.
Pen (23:01):
I would love to read that paper.
Harvey (23:02):
Yeah, I'm gonna, like, email it to you when this
episode's over. But, um... so, Idon't think I'm at the point yet
where I'm proud. I think proudis a strong word. I'm now less
concerned about people justrespecting me. I don't feel like
(23:25):
I need to fight for acceptance.
I feel like I get to chastisepeople until they accept me,
because if they don't, well,that sounds like a them problem.
Pen (23:37):
Yeah.
Harvey (23:38):
That's - that's not something that I need to carry
on my shoulders. That's not myburden. And honestly, for me,
some of this loops back aroundto transmedicalist circles. And
for anybody who's not familiar,the concept of transmedicalism
is the idea that you need genderdysphoria to be trans. And
that's not only scientificallyincorrect if you look at the
(24:02):
psychological evidence for it,but it's also very
western-centric, verywhite-centric, ahistorical, as
well.
Pen (24:10):
I also personally find it, like... that's sort of like,
not-statement because if you -if we define gender dysphoria
as...
Harvey (24:20):
Distress related to gender.
Pen (24:22):
As like, not... as like, yeah, like, any distress related
to being perceived or feelinglike the gender you were
assigned at birth, that's alsojust what being trans is.
Harvey (24:35):
Yeah, like...
Pen (24:35):
It's just not being cis.
Harvey (24:38):
It's a - it's a non argument.
Pen (24:40):
It's the same thing.
Harvey (24:41):
But if I had to pick one side, I would say you don't need
dysphoria. In any case, one ofthe things that's very common in
circles like these is anassimilation as politic. And
there's a lot of... and this iscoming from a real place of
pain, that there's this reallystrong thing around like, "I
(25:01):
wish other trans people," andthey're especially talking about
gender non-conforming andnonbinary trans people who are
like, "I wish that trans peoplewould just be normal because
they're the reason that we arenot accepted by society." Which
is just absurd.
Pen (25:16):
It's a - it's a fundamentally inaccurate
argument.
Harvey (25:21):
But if you're marginalized, you've probably
heard that in other situations,and maybe you felt it a little
bit.
Pen (25:27):
Yeah.
Harvey (25:28):
That's why I was a transmed when I was, like, 16.
It was because I was in a deep -and that's not to excuse the
things that I said or did,because they weren't okay. But I
was coming from a deep place ofpain, and I wasn't being
accepted. My own family wasshunning me to an extent. And so
(25:50):
God, of course, I was reachingfor literally any way for people
to just give me a sliver ofhumanity.
Pen (25:57):
I think the only place those kinds of perspectives can
come from is pain and fear.
Harvey (26:02):
Yeah. And so I think when we started this podcast, I
was - I was still at least alittle bit in denial about being
autistic. I think I knew, but Ididn't really want it to be
true, because it complicated mylife quite a bit.
Pen (26:17):
Yeah. What, like being nonbinary?
Harvey (26:20):
Oh, yeah! Or gay, or disabled...
Pen (26:25):
Yeah.
Harvey (26:26):
So on and so forth. So I think when we started this
podcast, I think that's sort ofthe place that I was at, not to
the extent of, "I wish otherautistic people would just be
normal." Because what? No,that's bonkers. But I think I
was coming from that place ofpain of just wanting people to
give me my humanity, and feelinglike it was my responsibility to
(26:46):
coax that out. And at least now,I've progressed to the point
where I don't feel that way.
That I feel like the point ofthis podcast, for me, is not to
make people accept me, but toprovide the neurodivergent
perspective that is almost neverconsidered...
Pen (27:07):
Yeah.
Harvey (27:07):
...in the way that it should be, because we have
important insight on things.
Pen (27:11):
Yeah.
Harvey (27:12):
Especially the way that the world is just fundamentally
set up to punch down and makepeople feel small. Even
neurotypical people.
Pen (27:20):
Oh, yeah.
Harvey (27:23):
And all of this is tied into capitalism.
Pen (27:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not to be a socialist, but also...
Harvey (27:29):
But also, if you're not profitable, then you are
considered completely andutterly useless.
Pen (27:34):
Worse than useless.
Detrimental. Something to betrimmed away.
Harvey (27:40):
And so, I don't think I'm proud yet. But I think I'm
getting closer. I think this isa step closer to pride. And I
mean, gosh, queer - queer pridetook me a long time, too. So
maybe that this is maybe this isjust my process of developing
neurodivergence pride.
Pen (27:59):
Well, you know, what, Harvey?
Harvey (28:00):
What's that?
Pen (28:01):
I'm proud of you.
Harvey (28:02):
Oh!
Pen (28:03):
I'm proud of... because I've seen you on this particular
journey.
Harvey (28:07):
You've known me since I was 18. I'm 22 now.
Pen (28:11):
I have known you the entire time that you have, like, out
loud said, "I think I might beautistic." Like, that slow
realization, which, you know, Imight have hap- like, might have
started before we met, inlike...
Harvey (28:29):
The - kind of the inklings were in my brain that
something was different aboutme, but I think I refused to
label it autism.
Pen (28:36):
I have known you since you started saying at least to other
people, "I think this might bean autism moment in my brain."
And... and I've also known you,as your your journey through
anxiety has really majorlyshifted.
Harvey (28:53):
Yeah. Thanks, medication.
Pen (28:55):
Seriously. But seeing you go from like, "Well, I don't
know if I'm autistic," to (29:00):
I don't know if I really count as
autistic if I'm not getting adiagnosis," and, "I don't know
if I want a diagnosis, but also,if I don't get a diagnosis, am I
really autistic?" To like, justsaying, "I am autistic."
Claiming that as your own andnot needing someone else to say
it for you. All of that, and I'mproud of you. Because it's not
(29:25):
easy to do any of that. It's notbecause we're not supposed to.
We aren't supposed to. Never.
Harvey (29:31):
We're not supposed to take this for ourselves.
Pen (29:33):
Never!
Harvey (29:34):
That neurodivergence is - is - is posited as this thing
that is bestowed upon you by thegreat Gods of Psychiatry.
Pen (29:42):
Who I really cannot stress enough, I'm so annoyed by.
Harvey (29:48):
Yeah. And if it's... if it's not a death sentence,
it's... I mean, it feels likeyou have been - what been
bestowed upon you is adisability. But that doesn't -
that disability doesn't startwhen you receive your diagnosis.
If anything, receiving thatdiagnosis, or just understanding
(30:11):
that you fit into a particularlabel, because diagnosis is not
all that important. Having thatlanguage makes it make sense.
And then you can find ways towork around it. And with it.
Pen (30:26):
Yes, yes! With it. It - when we are told, hey, this is
the way that you areneurodivergent. And I really...
I want to stress that a lot ofthis is specifically about
neurodivergence in terms ofthese things that are with us
since birth. These things thatare with us always. These these
chronic things. These incurablethings. And ADHD and autism are,
(30:50):
I think, like, kind of theclassic ones there. I'm not
talking about my depression. I'mnot talking about my social
anxiety, those just suck.
Harvey (30:59):
Other things - but just as reference, other things that
sometimes count isneurodivergence, OCD counts as
neurodivergence, a lot ofpsychotic disorders, such as
schizophrenia. Obviously, wecan't speak on those, because
neither of us have those to ourknowledge. But there are other
kinds of neurodivergence thataren't just ours.
Pen (31:18):
Yes, absolutely.
Harvey (31:19):
But it's those things that fundamentally change the
way that your brain works.
Pen (31:25):
And that's... it's complicated. And that
complication, like when we getthe diagnosis, it's supposed -
it is a professional saying,here's what's wrong with you.
Harvey (31:38):
Pretty much.
Pen (31:39):
Or to our guardians, here's what's wrong with your kid. And
that's how it's posited, andthat's how it's presented. And
that's like... that's why I cantotally be with, like, the MAD
pride movement and things likethat, because the point of it
is, screw you. It's... you don'tget to say how I am and how I
(32:02):
feel about this. You don't getto silence me. You don't get to
kill me anymore. You don't getto electrocute my brain, just
because you hate me, justbecause this is wrong to you.
And with that, in an activistsense, I am unashamedly proud of
(32:22):
being neurodivergent, and no onecan ever silence me on that.
Harvey (32:27):
Yeah.
Pen (32:28):
But then from that personal perspective, it's more
complicated than pride. Likethis is, you know, I can be
proud of, like, some fanfiction,I wrote, but how do I figure out
if I'm proud of a thing thathurts me and heals me and just
is me.
Harvey (32:48):
You know, Pen, I'm proud of you, too.
Pen (32:51):
Aww!
Harvey (32:52):
See? You understand how it feels now! Checkmate.
Pen (32:58):
It's - that's sweet.
Harvey (33:00):
It's, um... Yeah, I mean, I've also known you for
the past four years. We met atthe same time. We've told that
story before. Yes, I...
Pen (33:09):
Sorry, the phrase, "We met at the same time," is really
funny
Harvey (33:12):
It was meant to be funny.
Pen (33:13):
Good.
Harvey (33:14):
Kind of along the lines of, "I was born and incredibly
young age." I know, at least asfar as I can remember, I
remember the ways in which thisused to be a lot harder for you,
that it was harder to accept theways in which maybe sometimes
you're neurodivergence led youto be unkind to people, or
(33:37):
unkind to yourself, strugglingto move through the world. And
it's... if nothing else, atleast from my perspective, it's
nice to see you take that andgo, maybe this isn't the best
thing about me, and maybe thishurts me and other people, but
it's me, and I'm not gonna getanywhere by beating down on
(33:58):
myself for it. So I won't.
Pen (34:00):
That is.. that is exactly it. It's... thank you. It's nice
to be seen. And that is - thatis the thing for me. Like, I
can't say - I think - I don'tthink I can say whether or not I
am proud of my neurodivergence,but I can say that I've accepted
it. And because it's afundamental part of me, I would
(34:23):
not be myself if I didn't haveADHD. It's part of how my brain
is.
Harvey (34:30):
And it's part of you.
Pen (34:31):
And it's part of me! And I have accepted myself, and I've
looked at all the parts ofmyself and I've decided, yeah, I
like this one. And that means -that is the hard one high
opinion. That is me looking atmy ADHD and deciding because
it's part of me, yeah. I likethis one.
Harvey (34:55):
Yeah. You know, I - in my opinion, if we're - if we're
keeping with the theme ofradical self acceptance, which I
am. And not just radical selfacceptance, but radical self
love, though, radical selfacceptance is the first part of
that, thereby, the first step topride is self acceptance. And,
(35:19):
hey, we're there. That'simportant.
Pen (35:22):
That's major.
Harvey (35:24):
So, I don't know, maybe we see how we're doing in about
a year.
Pen (35:28):
Yeah. And this... I imagine there are, you know, other -
other neurodivergent peoplelistening to this, and maybe not
knowing the answer to thequestion of whether they're
proud of it, or maybe knowingthe answer. And if that's no,
that's you. We're not looking tochange your mind.
Harvey (35:49):
No.
Pen (35:49):
And if the answer is yes, good for you.
Harvey (35:52):
Cool, join the club.
Well, we're not quite there yet.
We're - we're - we're fillingout the paperwork, still.
Pen (35:59):
There's so many forms.
Harvey (36:02):
It's actually kind of ableist. I don't know what they
were thinking.
Pen (36:07):
Observational humor. But wherever you are, and none of
this is us trying to changeanybody's mind, this is all just
a perspective of it. And I thinka very - a very important one.
And I think we should talk - weshould talk about neurodivergent
pride, because we should talkabout neurodivergence, and we
should talk about it assomething more than a harmful
(36:29):
thing,
Harvey (36:30):
Because it's not exclusively.
Pen (36:32):
And that means we have to talk about the idea of loving
it.
Harvey (36:37):
Not in spite of it, but loving it. And loving the way
that it makes you feel, andloving the way that it changes
you.
Pen (36:43):
The way that it is. If we're going to talk about
neurodivergence as more thanjust harm, we have to talk about
it as not just a theoreticalpositive but as a positive. And
that I'll do proudly. Checkmate.
Harvey (37:02):
You know what, I think that is an excellent note to
wrap this one up on. So, happytwo years, Pen to our podcast
relationship.
Pen (37:13):
I'm 24! [Laughter] Happy 2 years, Harvey.
Harvey (37:24):
Is that a reference to the Vine?
Pen (37:26):
That's a reference to the Vine.
Harvey (37:27):
Cool. Okay, stick around for just a few more moments, and
hopefully for the next year, andwe'll tell you a little bit more
about how this podcast is made.
Beyond introspection is anindependently run podcast by Pen
Novus and Harvey LaFord. Musicby Girl Lloyd. You can find us
on Twitter and Instagram atBYNDpodcast. Or you can email us
(37:48):
at beyonddot—that's D O T—podcast@gmail.com. We publish on
Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify orwherever you get your podcasts.
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description. Gotfeedback for us? Feel free to
reach out on social media or viaemail. We'd love to hear from
everyone. Take care ofyourselves.
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