November 23, 2022 • 51 mins
Pen and Harvey discuss recovery, including what it means, their own experiences, and what the roadmap can look like.
Featuring: We have jobs (and it makes podcast recording hard to do); Harvey Is Forced To Define Recovery; Piano Lessons & Childhood Trauma; Don't yell at 7 year olds; Sometimes recovery just means being okay enough; "26" by Paramore; Hope.
USA Suicide Prevention:
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https://www.crisistextline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
https://translifeline.org/
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People (including text and online chat options):
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/get-help/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pen (00:12):
Hello everybody, and welcome to Beyond Introspection:
A podcast about mental health,neurodivergence and how it
impacts our life in literallyevery way.
Harvey (00:20):
All of them.
Pen (00:21):
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:21):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:22):
And this time we're gonna be talking about recovery.
Harvey (00:27):
Wow, we haven't recorded in, like, 12,000 years.
Pen (00:30):
Yeah, it's actually been - it's been a minute. But you
know, we've been doing thepodcast long enough that right
before I hit record, I was like,"Do I remember the intro? Oh,
shoot, I do!"
Harvey (00:40):
You got it right for the most part. It was pretty close.
Pen (00:43):
What did I? What did-
Harvey (00:45):
It goes, um, "A podcast about mental health,
neurodivergence, and how itimpacts literally every aspect
of our lives."
Pen (00:52):
Oh.
Harvey (00:53):
All of them.
Pen (00:54):
All of them. Ah, well...
Harvey (00:56):
You got the same effect, so like, who cares?
Pen (00:58):
It scans. That's what counts.
Harvey (01:00):
Exactly. I'm not - I'm not a real stickler about it.
Pen (01:05):
Uh, yeah, so, Harvey...
Harvey (01:05):
Pen?
Pen (01:05):
Do you remember the first segment of our show - segment's
funny. It implies that this showis a lot more structured than it
actually is. But do you do yourecall what the first segment of
our show is? Besides giving Pena hard time about the intro?
Harvey (01:21):
Ugh, hey...
Pen (01:22):
It's a joke, it's a joke!
Harvey (01:24):
Of course I do, the Wahoo! Moment of the Existence.
Pen (01:26):
...of the exist- right, yes.
Harvey (01:28):
Of the last time we recorded.
Pen (01:30):
Yes.
Harvey (01:30):
Time is not real.
Pen (01:32):
Time is not real.
Harvey (01:33):
Pen, tell me! Tell me about a recent-ish Wahoo!
Moment.
Pen (01:39):
My Wahoo!-
Harvey (01:39):
Wahoo!
Pen (01:42):
That's my Wahoo!, is just listening to you say it.
Harvey (01:46):
I'm a good mimic.
Pen (01:46):
You are. Yeah, so I thought about this right before we hit
record, also..
Harvey (01:53):
Obsessed, as usual.
That's okay.
Pen (01:54):
Yeah, yeah. I think, especially given I don't know
how long it's been exactly, andhave probably gone through
multiple hyper fixation sincethen, as is my want.
Harvey (02:06):
Yeah, I was gonna say at least two...? I don't know, I'm
just pulling a number out of my- out of my behind. Anyway, Pen,
please.
Pen (02:16):
I like my job. My job's pretty good. And I know I've
mentioned before that my job ispretty good, and I feel pretty
good about it.
Harvey (02:27):
Ohh, sleepytired.
Pen (02:28):
A little bit. It's an end-of-day recording instead of
afternoon recording.
Harvey (02:32):
Unusual. I was at work, like all day,
Pen (02:36):
But I like my job, and also, it has been such a major
facet of my social anxietygetting better.
Harvey (02:42):
That's awesome.
Pen (02:43):
And it's really cool to get to, like, consciously notice,
"Oh, wow, I feel reallyconfident right now. Like I feel
fine." Like on - yesterday, Iwas at work, and I finished up a
project I was - I was puttingtogether, which is a little
guide on our 3D printers.
Harvey (03:03):
Super cool and important.
Pen (03:05):
Because, uh... and not like - like, we have manuals for
them. But I'm the one who usesthem the most, and so it's kind
of like, you know, experientialknowledge with our specific
ones. Here's the basics that areuseful.
Harvey (03:16):
Right, and you have some of that troubleshooting
knowledge that might not occurto everyone.
Pen (03:20):
Mhm. And also the knowledge on like, "Hey, so this is
something that's worthtroubleshooting in the moment,
this is something that's reallynot. Like, leave this for later.
Or ask Pen." And I added somejokes to it, because I'm really
funny.
Harvey (03:32):
God, I love you.
Pen (03:33):
The, um, my least favorite of the 3d printers, a Sculpto.
Hey, if you're thinking into 3Dprinters, one Prusas? I'm really
bias, but Prusa's a great brand;two, don't get a Sculpto, don't
get a Sculpto, don't get aSculpto. Don't - don't do it.
Don't get it. Don't - don't doit. It's not worth it.
Harvey (03:47):
Well, there goes that sponsorship deal.
Pen (03:49):
It's - it's one of those that, like, mom blogs, where
there's, like, the first entry,and it's like, "Wow, it was so
great, and it was super easy tohook up and use with my kids!"
and then there's an update amonth later like, "This was a
waste of money, don't do it."But yeah, so I added some jokes,
like our Sculpto that my bossuses, and he likes it, and I'm
(04:10):
happy for him, but...
Harvey (04:12):
Well, that's unfortunate.
Pen (04:14):
Look, I'm glad that-
Harvey (04:15):
Not that you're happy for him. That's okay.
First heading, Expectations (04:17):
If you're not Mark, please do not
use this printer.
Harvey (04:26):
That's pretty good.
Pen (04:26):
Thank you.
Harvey (04:28):
Mark.
Pen (04:30):
But yeah, so I made up that guide, and I printed it out and
I was like, "Hey Mark, will youlook at this?" And he was like,
"Yeah, sure." And it occurred tome like, hm, a while ago, I
would have felt so anxious abouthanding someone a thing that I
had made. Like, literally,doesn't matter what it was. But
(04:52):
especially, like, I'm making aguide for people, like staff who
want to use our 3D printers, I'dbe, like, so nervous about any
small correction, and then Irealized at that moment like I
felt fine and confident aboutwhat I'd handed him. It was
just, like, fine. I was like,whoa!
Harvey (05:08):
Look at you!
Pen (05:09):
I didn't know that could happen.
Harvey (05:10):
And look at how well that connects to today's topic,
which we'll get into soon.
Pen (05:14):
Oh right, yeah! So Harvey, what's your Wahoo! Moment of
Time.
Time?
Time.
Harvey (05:21):
Yeah, I... [laughs] I feel like I say this every time
we record, and it's probablybecause, lately, we've been
doing such long stretcheswithout recording. I've been
going through it again. There's- there's been a couple things.
Going through another breakup,just generally another
depressive spell, because that'show persistent depressive
(05:44):
disorder works. But I have a newjob.
Pen (05:49):
Harvey has a job!
Harvey (05:50):
I have a job and it's my very first full-time job.
Pen (05:53):
Haha, job-haver.
Harvey (05:55):
Okay, pot calling the kettle black, but all right. In
any case, yeah, I have my veryfirst full-time job. And if I'm
being honest, I don't think Iknew entirely what I was walking
into, because I have a very,I'll say emotionally intensive
job. I work in a domesticviolence shelter as a case
(06:16):
manager, which is a lot, butit's...
Pen (06:19):
That sounds like a lot, yeah.
Harvey (06:20):
You know, everyone there is honestly just wonderful. I've
only had positive interactionswith my coworkers and my
supervisors.
Pen (06:30):
Nice!
Harvey (06:31):
It's... no, everyone there is really lovely, and even
though I know I'm going to be infor a difficult ride with this
job, I think it's going to beworth it. And I'm really looking
forward to doing something withmy life that really feels like
it has an impact.
Pen (06:47):
Yeah.
Harvey (06:47):
Like this is going to be... if I do my job well, this
is going to be such, like,tangible, positive stuff. I kind
of lost my train of thought inthe middle of that, but you know
what I'm saying.
Pen (06:59):
Like, you're doing something that has a positive
impact on people's lives, andyou get to like, see that, and
that it's a really big deal,even.
Harvey (07:06):
Yeah, and you know, it's not always going to be sunshine
and rainbows. Actually, probablymost of the time, it's not going
to be, because this is - I mean,this is domestic violence. These
are people who have gone throughhell.
Pen (07:16):
Yeah. Like there's - there's not a... you walk in,
and it's bad.
Harvey (07:21):
It - these are people who are deeply, horribly
traumatized. And if I can bepart of the solution, that's
super exciting. Also, it pays 21an hour, and I have benefits,
which is exciting. So yeah,that's - I think that's mine.
Pen (07:37):
That's great. I'm really happy for you. And I'm proud of
you. And I love you very much.
Harvey (07:42):
I love you too. And yeah, as I sort of alluded to...
Pen (07:46):
Speaking of trauma!
Harvey (07:49):
Yeah. Uh-huh. Kind of as I alluded to, when we were
talking about Pen's, Wahoo!Moment of the Time, we're
talking today about recovery,which is maybe one of the
broadest things I could havesaid today, but...
Pen (08:06):
It is, now that I'm thinking on it, a very vague
thing to say. Which is not acomplaint, because I...
Harvey (08:14):
'Cause, well...
Pen (08:15):
You posited this a while ago, because we ended up not
recording.
Harvey (08:20):
We were having audio issues that day.
Pen (08:21):
We were having audio issues. But I'm very into the
idea of - of doing something onrecovery, I think, in part,
because it's so open.
Harvey (08:30):
Yeah. Like, it can be so many things.
Pen (08:35):
Harvey, talk about what recovery is.
Harvey (08:37):
Sure! Recovery can mean a lot of things. And it honestly
really depends on, you know,what sort of dimension of
recovery we're looking at. As itpertains to mental health, for
some people, recovery might betotal remission from symptoms.
So that might be, at one point,you met the clinical criteria
for depression, and now youdon't. That could be a kind of
(09:01):
recovery. Sometimes, you know,if we're talking about, like,
substance use, for example,recovery might be using less
often. And maybe not using harddrugs anymore. Maybe... maybe
using something a little bitlighter. And, you know, going
back to the mental healthperspective, it could be that
(09:23):
recovery - the way that I definerecovery is just the ongoing
process of... let methink...finding meaning in your
life and finding function whileaccommodating for your
particular struggles, which is areally wordy way of putting it,
(09:45):
but I think, you know, with mecoming up with an off-the-cuff
definition, I think that'sprobably how I would
conceptualize it. That it'sjust, recovery, to me, is this
really ongoing process oflearning how to not just work
around, but also work with, yourindividual challenges to make a
(10:05):
life that is meaningful andproductive to you, whatever that
means.
Pen (10:10):
Yeah. Making the choice and the effort to improve upon
whatever it is that is harming,that is negative.
Harvey (10:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that gets at the idea.
Pen (10:30):
Or just like, I mean, improvement upon the negative,
if we're going extremely broad.
Harvey (10:34):
Yeah. It can be... it can be a lot of things, which is
kind of why this is such anoddball topic, because it's
just... recovery can be so manythings that it's - it's honestly
a little bit tricky to definewithout thinking, "Oh, wait, but
what about this? And what aboutthat?" and so on and so forth.
Pen (10:53):
And for our purposes, and also for us as people, really
strict definition is really notnecessary or - or wholly useful.
Harvey (11:02):
I have a degree in gender studies, of course not.
Pen (11:06):
I just made you do it, because you're the psych one.
Harvey (11:08):
Yeah, no, that's fair.
That's - that's - that's my jobin this...
Pen (11:11):
Honestly, I'm so used to you being like, "And I can
define that," that I was like,yeah, let's just throw it to
Harvey.
Harvey (11:18):
And yeah, I mean, well, I appreciate you having that
faith in me, and also, yeah,there's not one definition of
recovery. Kind of the point ofrecovery is that it's going to
be very individualized,depending on your specific
struggles and your...
Pen (11:34):
And goals.
Harvey (11:35):
Yeah, that's the thing.
I think so many people have itin their minds that recovery,
with regard to mental health,means just behaving like someone
who is not mentally ill, or as,like, a neurotypical person. And
for most people who strugglewith their mental health, I'm
gonna say that's just notrealistic.
Pen (11:57):
No. There are cases where that's not going to be, like,
possible. Obviously, it would bewonderful if everyone who meets
the criteria for... as the basicexample, depression, someday
doesn't, but that's... that's areally, really big goal, and
you're going to put a lot ofpressure on yourself to get to
that point, and it's actuallygoing to harm your recovery to
(12:20):
do that.
Harvey (12:21):
Yeah. And I think, you know, before I get too ahead of
myself, and so we don't do likethe... the stream of
consciousness that this podcastends up falling into, Pen, I
know you had some specificthoughts on recovery that you
were talking to me about over,like, Discord, I think. So I was
wondering if you wanted to touchon that.
Pen (12:41):
So recovery for me, when I'm thinking about it, it has
largely been tied... like it'sso tied to trauma for me, and
you know, a lot of the time whenI talk about my trauma, I'm
talking about my childhoodtrauma. But there's also...
maybe there's trauma and beingmentally ill...
Harvey (13:02):
Inherently.
Pen (13:02):
...and experiencing it, and like...
Harvey (13:04):
With how just alienating the experience of being mentally
ill is, yeah.
Pen (13:08):
And how much it sucks.
Harvey (13:10):
Yeah, it just sucks.
Pen (13:11):
Like, if depression didn't suck, [laughing] If depression
wasn't miserable and horrible toexperience, it wouldn't be what
it is. Which is a... kind of anodd way to phrase it, but...
Harvey (13:22):
But I get what you're saying, I think,.I don't know if
I could explain it, but I thinkI understand.
Pen (13:26):
It's,... it's like, you know, experiencing these things.
It's not just the symptomsthemselves, it's the awareness
of the symptoms, and living withthe symptoms, and like... I had
to recover... not only did Ihave, like, the experience and
process of improving my mentalstate, and no longer actively
(13:50):
being super depressed, or havingas many depressive episodes, I
also had to work on, like,sticking to positive habits,
not... like, the after-effectsof what depression does to your
mind.
Harvey (14:10):
Yeah.
Pen (14:10):
You know?
Harvey (14:11):
Yeah.
Pen (14:11):
Of what it does to relationships and all of that,
like it. It's not justrecovering from the actual
symptoms, it's recovering fromthe experience.
Harvey (14:19):
Well, yeah. And you know, I'm not going to get super
in-depth with this, because Ithink I would just spend way too
long on the topic, butdepression and many other mental
illnesses, but because we'retalking about depression and
your depression, depressionchanges your brain. It's...
like, I'm reluctant to say braindamage, but it... in some ways,
(14:43):
it does legitimately damage yourbrain, especially when you are
chronically depressed. Which,if... well, I've known you long
enough to know that that's whatit was.
Pen (14:52):
Oh, yeah. And it's - it's complex, and obviously, that
also had to do with childhoodtrauma. And... and so, recovery
for me is so intimately tiedwith trauma, whether that is the
childhood trauma or the traumaof experiencing mental illness.
Or, I mean, there's trauma andhaving ADHD.
Harvey (15:12):
Yeah. Again, alienation.
Pen (15:15):
Alienation is trauma and being disabled.
Harvey (15:18):
Wow, who would have thunk it? In an ableist society?
Pen (15:21):
For real.
Harvey (15:21):
That's crazy.
Pen (15:23):
And, you know, there's all of that. And what I was thinking
of, most recently, with talkingabout recovery was linked to my
childhood trauma, becauseeverything's about my childhood
trauma.
Harvey (15:33):
Natch.
Pen (15:34):
Everything. Ask my therapists.
Harvey (15:38):
And I mean, we could have a legitimate conversation
about how pervasive trauma is,but continue.
Pen (15:44):
I think the most particular form of recovery for me, or way
that, like, recovery fromcertain aspects of my childhood
trauma has manifested is inrelation - my relationship with
the piano?
Harvey (16:02):
Oh, yes, that's right.
Pen (16:03):
And this is very, very specific. So we can get back to
it later if you'd prefer. Solike...
Harvey (16:07):
Actually, I'd love to hear your piano story.
Pen (16:10):
Okay, so I have - my piano story is, um... it starts in a
bad place.
Harvey (16:15):
Okay. Vibes.
Pen (16:17):
So when I was five, my mom was like, "Hey, pick a musical
instrument to learn." Becauseyou know, that's good for kids.
It's like a good thing for theirbrains.
Harvey (16:24):
Yeah.
Pen (16:24):
This is not the sad part.
That's fine.
Harvey (16:26):
Yeah.
Pen (16:27):
And I was like, piano, which is a pretty good pick. I'd
say.
Harvey (16:31):
It's a very difficult instrument to learn, but it's a
cool one.
Pen (16:34):
It is. It's a neat one. And it's very transferable. Like, I
played the flute later, and Ialready knew how to read music
and all of it, and like, whenyou learn the piano, you learn
how to read both treble and bassclef. I guess not alto clef, but
that's only for violas, so whocares?
Harvey (16:48):
Exactly. Well, probably violas.
Pen (16:50):
Probably violas. This is what happens when you're dating
someone who played upright bass.
Harvey (16:58):
That's right. God, I forgot she did that.
Pen (17:03):
Yeah. And she's happier for not doing it anymore. Better for
her hands, too.
Harvey (17:07):
Yeah, yeah, that checks out.
Pen (17:09):
But I was like, piano. So we got an electric piano. And I
have very, very vague memoriesof this, because, you know, I
was five. And so they put meinto piano lessons, which is the
thing that you do when a childneeds to learn how to play an
instrument.
Harvey (17:22):
Yeah, give them lessons so they can learn.
Pen (17:25):
I was in piano lessons from age five to age eight.
Harvey (17:30):
Okay.
Pen (17:30):
And it became... it's like, capital P, capital L, Piano
Lessons, when I talk about thosein my childhood.
Harvey (17:43):
So they got pretty serious.
Pen (17:46):
It was extremely bad. It...
I don't like going into depthreally, necessarily...
Harvey (17:56):
And you don't have to.
Pen (17:57):
...on certain aspects of certain consistent aspects on my
childhood trauma.
Harvey (18:01):
Sure.
Pen (18:02):
But my mom took it very hardcore. And it was like, 30
minutes a day, every day. And itwas a... I'll just say it was a
problem if that didn't happen,or if I didn't meet certain
standards. The other major partof it was that my piano teacher
was not a very gentle woman.
Harvey (18:24):
Ah.
Pen (18:25):
I was a really easy crier when I was a kid because I was
extremely, extremely anxious.
Harvey (18:30):
Yeah. And also, kids just, like, cry.
Pen (18:32):
Yeah, you know, especially that from when they're, like,
six or seven years old.
Harvey (18:37):
Have you ever interacted with a six year old? They're so
sensitive, and who can blamethem? They don't have the, uh...
the life experience to selfregulate. Yeah.
Pen (18:44):
So hey, Harvey.
Harvey (18:46):
Yeah.
Pen (18:47):
What would you... if there was a seven year old who was
playing the piano and keptmaking a mistake, and... and got
anxious and cried about it, whatwould - what would you maybe say
to that seven year old?
Harvey (18:59):
I think I would say, "Hey, it seems like you're
getting really frustrated. And Iknow it can be really hard when
you keep making mistakes. Let meshow you... um, why don't we
take a little break first, andthen once you're feeling a
little better, why don't I showyou how I do it, and then we'll
try again, okay?
Pen (19:20):
So you wouldn't say, "Stop with the waterworks!"?
Harvey (19:24):
Heavens, no. Jesus, why would you do that?
Pen (19:26):
I don't know. But that was her tactic.
Harvey (19:28):
Uh, I'm gonna bite her?
Pen (19:30):
Yeah, she yelled at me for crying...
Harvey (19:32):
That's so ugly.
Pen (19:32):
...which, you know, made me cry more.
Harvey (19:35):
Obviously.
Pen (19:36):
I was seven.
Harvey (19:37):
You can't just tell a child not to cry. They're just
gonna learn to stifle theiremotions.
Pen (19:42):
Yeah, they will. They did, in fact. And that wasn't just
because of her, but she wascertainly a negative impact on
my mental health as a child. Sothat was her and so she was
really strict about it, and itwasn't... and it was a whole
thing, and also... so there'sactually some stuff on people
(20:04):
with, especially ADHD andautism, but neurodivergent
people being able to play byear.
Harvey (20:13):
That's interesting.
Pen (20:13):
It is. It is. And there's like... I don't know how much
research there is in it, butit's a well known enough
phenomenon that like...
Harvey (20:21):
I've heard of it.
Pen (20:22):
...I feel pretty confident, like, that is why I can play by
ear, but I've always been ableto do that.
Harvey (20:28):
Sure. Well, and you've always had ADHD.
Pen (20:30):
Yeah, sure I sure have! The brain's always looked like this.
Harvey (20:35):
Wooow.
Pen (20:37):
But you know, so that means, um... and that is - it
can be, if you default toplaying by ear, it can be
detrimental to you knowing someof the fundamentals and the
basics, because you're not...
because then you're going -you're not paying attention to
some specific things. You'repredicting what should come
next, instead of reading themusic, or like, you know, doing
(20:57):
the fundamentals that aregenuinely important for you to
build upon.
Harvey (21:04):
I'm not a musician, so I believe you.
Pen (21:08):
That said, playing by ear is also considered a skill that
is worth honing. People takeclasses to learn how to play by
ear.
Harvey (21:18):
Yeah.
Pen (21:19):
I didn't learn that until I was 20.
Harvey (21:22):
Oh, wow.
Pen (21:24):
And my girlfriend, you know, who was at the time a
music major, told me that, andwas like...
Harvey (21:31):
She's extremely talented.
Pen (21:32):
Extremely! She's... she's really, really good, and really,
really cool. I like her.
Harvey (21:37):
We like Girl Lloyd.
Pen (21:38):
We do. But she... I was like, yeah, I can play by ear.
And she was like, "Oh, that's -that's great. Like, people do
that." And I was like, what?
Because my piano teacher yelledat me for playing by ear. And it
was a major thing, she - shewould get on me about it all the
time because I did that all thetime, because I could predict
what was going to come next. SoI just naturally did it.
Harvey (22:02):
And I'm going to be frank, you were at least
partially in survival mode.
Pen (22:09):
Mm-hmm.
Harvey (22:09):
In the sense that... to your seven year old mind,
whether or not you were anactual danger, you felt
threatened. And so, I think insome ways, you were probably
trying to avoid harm.
Pen (22:21):
Oh, yeah. And like, of course, I was working more by
instinct. I was a child and abeginner. And my brain was like,
oh, we know what the next partis. And I was right, a lot of
the time.
Harvey (22:35):
But it wasn't the, quote unquote, right way.
Pen (22:37):
It wasn't. And there are some parts of like, the
fundamentals, that genuinely,it's totally fair. And there are
other parts of like, you shouldnever talk to a child that way.
Harvey (22:44):
Yeah, like, being that firm with a child who is upset
because they're frustrated, andbecause they're being snapped
at, the... this is like, youknow, like... human skills 101
that you just - if somebody isgetting - and you're going to
hear me use language that Iwould use it my job - if
(23:07):
somebody is getting escalated,the point is not, then, to
escalate it further.
Pen (23:13):
Yeah, no. And also like, I wouldn't even be crying because
I was frustrated. I was cryingbecause I was scared, because I
knew if I made mistakes, she wasgoing to be mad at me.
Harvey (23:21):
Exactly.
Pen (23:22):
So like, it was all just...
but then learning that, like,playing by ear isn't a bad
thing, and in fact, people willtry to learn how to do it, I was
like, are you kidding me rightnow?!
Harvey (23:32):
I bet.
Pen (23:32):
I assumed, because of how hard she was on me, that I was
not good at playing the piano,and that I was just like - that
I was bad at it, and I never gotgood at it. Come to find out,
according to my girlfriend, themusic major, not only do I have
(23:54):
- I think because I started atsuch a young age - I do have
like, kind of a natural aptitudefor it, because, you know, it's
like when kids learn languagesat super young ages, they just
kind of have it forever.
Harvey (24:07):
Right.
Pen (24:08):
I have that with at least some aspects of playing music in
general, but especially withplaying the piano.
Harvey (24:15):
Yeah.
Pen (24:15):
I started at five. There are parts of it all that I'll
always know.
Harvey (24:18):
It's just part of your procedural memory at this point.
Pen (24:21):
And according to her at least, like, it kind of comes
through in the way that I play,even if I'm just, like, messing
around. And also that, like,playing by ear is a cool thing
that's worth cultivating. And Iwas simultaneously so like, wow,
this is... like, it's a reliefto learn this, and it's
(24:42):
interesting to learn this,and... and this is valuable, and
so mad.
Harvey (24:46):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Pen (24:48):
And - and I found some of the old books that I was
learning from and playing from,and I was looking at it, and I
was like, wait I played thiswhen I was seven years old? Hey,
I was pretty good! Are youserious right now?! You mean I
was good at this, and you guystreated me like hell?!
Harvey (25:04):
Yeah.
Pen (25:05):
So, you know...
Harvey (25:06):
That's real.
Pen (25:07):
That was... that was why it was Piano Lessons, capital P,
capital L, when - as I wasgetting older, because it was,
like, Piano Lessons were bad.
And it was largely because of mygirlfriend, actually, had her,
like, very gentle encouragement,and just genuine, like... just
(25:29):
saying what she meant and thestuff that she was saying was
just, like... things I've neverimagined being applied to me and
music.
Harvey (25:40):
Yeah.
Pen (25:41):
That I was able to cultivate a new and - and better
relationship with the piano atall. And now like, I have that
piano in my apartment.
Harvey (25:52):
Yeah. Actually, like five feet behind me, probably.
Pen (25:56):
Yeah, there's not a ton of room, but it's-it's a pretty
nice one. It's - it's like,fairly old, but it works real
well. Electric piano, you can'tmess it up by transporting it.
No strings.
Harvey (26:06):
It's a piano!
Pen (26:07):
It's a piano! And so now, when I'm feeling some kinds of
emotions. Like, any kind ofintense emotion, but also, there
are some, like, categories, andespecially when it has to do
with specific kinds of trauma,especially my childhood trauma,
(26:27):
I play piano about it. LikeI.... I'll get this kind of
itch, and I'll sit down, andI'll just play piano about it.
And it doesn't always - itusually doesn't even matter what
song I'm playing. It's justplaying lets me experience it
and kind of process it...
Harvey (26:47):
Yeah.
Pen (26:48):
...in a very particular way. And I think part of the
reason that it's so helpful isbecause playing the piano, I
learned at such a fundamentalpoint in my life.
Harvey (27:00):
Yeah.
Pen (27:01):
So legitimately, you know, kind of - to not just tell the
story of some of Pen's childhoodtrauma, but to tie it back to
recovery, it's.... this thingthat was fundamental to the
trauma in the first place hasalso become such an incredibly
useful tool in recovery. Andthat feeling is... like, that's
(27:24):
not easy. It's - it's not easyto get to that point with
something that you have suchintense associations with.
Harvey (27:34):
Yeah.
Pen (27:34):
Because my piano lessons were really, really, really bad.
They were bad. It was bad as akid.
Harvey (27:40):
Yeah.
Pen (27:41):
And now - and like, it wasn't super easy. Like I was,
for quite a while after Istarted playing again, I was
super sensitive to any kind ofcriticism. And that's, you know,
complicated too, and I had somebreakdowns about it. But now,
I'm - I'm at this point where,like, I had a conversation with
(28:02):
my grandmother about brought upsome really, really incredibly
intense things on thegenerational trauma of my
family, and I played piano aboutit, and it helped. And that's
something I never could haveimagined happening. It's - it's
(28:25):
a... recovery looks - it sorarely, I think, looks like what
people expect it to look like.
Harvey (28:37):
It's a very holistic process, I think. I think people
don't always think of recoveryas reclamation, which is
literally what it was for you.
Pen (28:46):
And not just - it's - it's not even just the reclamation,
because my... it's like - it isin some ways, because I can
communicate and feel and talkwith piano differently than any
other way.
Harvey (29:05):
Yeah.
Pen (29:06):
And there's - there's a reclamation part of that, and
there's also a kind ofre-experiencing. It's like
reaching out a hand to kid me,and getting to, like, reconnect
those parts of myself. And like,using it to process emotions now
(29:28):
helps me process the traumaitself, which just then goes on
forward.
Harvey (29:35):
Yeah. That's really powerful stuff, Pen.
Pen (29:38):
Thank you. It's - I think about it.
Harvey (29:41):
Yeah, I can tell. And it sounds like that's become a
really important coping skillfor you.
Pen (29:50):
That's - yeah, that feels like - like that tangent maybe
went on a bit. That's my - thatwas, like, the first thing I
thought of when you brought uprecovery.
Harvey (30:02):
And it was a good conversation.
Pen (30:04):
Oh, thank you. Do you - let's - hey.
Harvey (30:07):
Yeah!
Pen (30:07):
Recovery.
Harvey (30:08):
Yeah.
Pen (30:09):
Harvey.
Harvey (30:11):
Yeah, my recovery. And that's a that's an interesting
subject because I don't think Ialways recognize it. But the
truth is I actually have like,really severe mental health
issues when I really think aboutit.
Pen (30:27):
Yeah...
Harvey (30:28):
Like, I... and you know, not to put a judgment call on
that, but it's not severe in thesense of like, I don't
experience psychosis, I don'texperience delusions. I've
experienced psychosis once in mylife, and it was because of
weed. [Laughing] It was becauseI got too high. But you know...
Pen (30:48):
Wasn't that in a Walmart parking lot?
Harvey (30:50):
Yes.
Pen (30:51):
That's, uh... that feels like the right place to
experience it.
Harvey (30:54):
Yeah. Still dating the guy, too. He's wonderful. But,
you know, so I don't have - Idon't have those kinds of
problems. And that's, you know,that's not necessarily to create
a hierarchy, or that like, "Oh,those people,"they're just not
the issues I have. It's morethat I have some of the more,
quote unquote, run -run-of-the-mill disorders like
(31:15):
depression and anxiety, butthey're really bad.
Pen (31:22):
Accurate.
Harvey (31:23):
I've - I've mentioned, I think, on this show a couple of
times that I've been told byseveral clinicians that I have
some of the worst anxietythey've ever seen, which is
validating and extremelypainful.
Pen (31:35):
Yeah.
Harvey (31:36):
Mostly validating, I'll be honest. And my depression
ranges from moderate to severe,depending on how I'm doing and
what's happening. But there's acouple things that go into that.
And it's... I'm chronicallydepressed. That's literally the
(31:58):
definition of the disorder thatI have. I'm just depressed
pretty much all of the time,even when things are okay. And
the really tricky part of thatis I'm chronically suicidal.
Pen (32:09):
Mm-hmm.
Harvey (32:09):
And the tricky thing about that is, well...
Pen (32:17):
I mean, kind of all of it.
Harvey (32:18):
Yeah, I mean, when you're thinking about - in some
way or another, I am usuallythinking about suicide in some
way. And I won't get too intothis, because I don't want to
spend this entire segmenttalking about my suicidality.
But...
Pen (32:31):
That doesn't seem like it'd be nice for you.
Harvey (32:33):
I wouldn't say I'm suicidal all the time, because
I'm not. But it's always one ofthose things that's on the back
of my mind. So that gives yousome context for the severity.
The other thing, too, is I havesome pretty substantial issues
with substance use. I am,straight up, an alcoholic. And
(32:53):
I'm at a point now where I'verecovered enough, actually, and
I'll get into that, to drinkagain. And I only drink socially
at this point. Thankfully, Inever got into hard drugs. I'm
really glad that I never endedup there because I think I would
have been in a much rougherspot. And there was also a
(33:14):
period of time, about a year anda half, two years that I was
smoking cigarettes, and then thesmoking age changed to 21, and I
was 19. So straight up, I wasforced to stop smoking because I
couldn't get cigarettes anymore,because I had friends who loved
me that wouldn't buy them forme. So the - the nicotine
(33:35):
withdrawals were rough, but Ilived.
So all of this to say, like, Idon't talk about this a lot,
because - and I think there's alevel of shame for me. Because
this is the side of my mentalhealth issues that's ugly. And
(33:56):
that's socially unacceptable.
And it's the things that makepeople cringe and wince. And it
makes me cringe and wins,because I know... I know that
it's bad. And, you know, I'vebeen in and out of therapy since
I was five. I've been onmedication for... gosh, two and
(34:18):
a half years? For my mentalhealth? And there are still so
many things that I'm reallystruggling to find my way out
of. Pen, I know you've beenreally worried about me lately
because of some of the - heh -just the symptoms I've been
exhibiting.
And so for me, the thing thatI've learned about recovery,
(34:43):
from my own experiences, is thatrecovery is so not linear.
It's... I don't even know if Iwould call it a process.
Recovery is a lot of things. Ithink it really goes back and
forth. For me, like, I go intothese periods of remission, I
(35:06):
think when we started thepodcast, I was actually doing
really well. And currently, Iwould say I'm doing very poorly.
And, you know, so I go intothese periods of remission,
where I'm doing really well. Andthen I go into these periods
where I'm really severelydepressed again. And you know, I
have to keep certain householdobjects away from me because I
(35:28):
don't feel safe. And so I'vecertainly learned that it's not
linear. That sometimes recoverymeans that I'm going to fall
backwards. And there are dayswhere I'm going to feel like
garbage. And sometimes there aregoing to be weeks where I'm
going to feel like garbage.
But then I have to put it intoperspective, right? I need to
(35:51):
look at that and recognize that,if I was this level of depressed
in 2019...
Pen (35:58):
Ooh.
Harvey (35:59):
...I might not be alive.
Pen (36:01):
Yeah.
Harvey (36:03):
I've mentioned before, again, on the show that 2019 was
probably the lowest point in mylife. And yeah, I think if I
were dealing with this level ofdepression, then I do seriously
think that I might have donesomething. And I know that's
really heavy. But I - that's onecomponent of recovery, is kind
(36:27):
of looking at yourself and going"Well, I'm not doing well, but
I'm alive."
Pen (36:34):
Yeah. I mean, better than before is something significant.
Harvey (36:39):
It's - it's progress. It might be progress after
stumbling backwards severaltimes, but it's progress
nonetheless. And then there'splenty of other elements of
recovery for me, too. I have abetter relationship with
alcohol, for example. I candrink without feeling like I'm
out of control. And honestly,some of that is antidepressants.
(37:02):
Because one drink feels likethree.
Pen (37:03):
Yep!
Harvey (37:05):
So I just stop drinking a lot sooner, because my
tolerance is shot. Thanks,SSRIs. And I think too, I mean,
I haven't touched a cigarette inseveral years at this point. Not
since 2019. Actually, it's beena long time.
Pen (37:22):
Yeah, that's - that seems good. Pretty strictly good.
Harvey (37:26):
So you know, this is all... I think recovery for me
is recognizing that it's okaythat I'm not doing okay.
And I think a lot of ithas to be letting go of that
Pen (37:39):
Yes.
shame.
Yes.
Harvey (37:42):
I mentioned earlier that there was there's a lot of shame
for me around some of my mentalhealth issues, because they are
some of the less palatable ones,particularly substance use. I
think that's when it gets reallyheavily stigmatized.
Pen (37:57):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:58):
And yeah, it doesn't feel great to say, :Hey, yeah,
I'm a 22 year old alcoholic."But this is just where I'm at.
Pen (38:08):
Yeah.
Harvey (38:08):
There are a lot of reasons that I'm here. Some of
it is genetic factors.
Alcoholism runs in my family.
Mental health issues run in myfamily, and I'm also
traumatized.
Pen (38:18):
Yeah.
Harvey (38:20):
And these are all things that just lead to struggling,
right? And I'm still here.
Pen (38:26):
Yes.
Harvey (38:27):
I still get up in the morning, and I still find
meaning in my life. That didn'tal - that wasn't always true. So
that kind of has to be recovery.
I don't know what else it wouldbe.
Pen (38:41):
I... this is something that I talked about with my
therapist. Like, I think lastmonth, maybe, is... I mean, I
keep saying in sessions like,"Yeah, I'm doing okay. Got some
low level depression that's justthere," and you can only say
that so many times before yourealize you've said it every
(39:03):
time.
Harvey (39:03):
Yeah. And you're like, ooh.
Pen (39:05):
And I thought about it. And I was like, okay, so these
depressive swings keephappening, and they're keeping
things that are really difficultfor me to do, like the dishes,
or cleaning my room, or feedingmyself.
Harvey (39:20):
Vibes.
Pen (39:21):
Et cetera. But I keep saying I'm fine, too, or like,
it's not like it used to be. Andmaybe the goal isn't to not
experience these low leveldepressive spells ever. Maybe
the goal is to just managethem...
Harvey (39:43):
Yeah.
Pen (39:44):
...instead of just making it be gone.
Harvey (39:46):
That's real.
Pen (39:46):
Like, being better than what I used to be? Maybe that's
enough. It's definitelyrecovery.
Harvey (39:54):
That's - that's another thing. Recovery - I think one of
the things that it is, if we'rejust - if this episode is just
turning into creating a workingdefinition - recovery... oh,
schnickies, I lost the thought.
Pen (40:07):
No!
Harvey (40:09):
Recovery is relative.
Pen (40:10):
Yes.
Harvey (40:12):
Recovery changes. It involves moving the goalposts
constantly. You know, in periodsof time where I'm doing better,
it might be, hey, here's thisbig life goal that I want to
achieve. Let's work on that. Inperiods like right now, where
I'm really not doing okay, itlooks more like, hey, let's not
(40:36):
relapse.
Pen (40:37):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's...
yeah, that's actually somethingthat in the earlier stages of
hello, COVID, I realigned mydefinition of, like - of my- my
goal, pretty much every day, and
just shot it down to (40:58):
getting through the day is enough.
Harvey (41:01):
Yeah.
Pen (41:02):
That is all the work that I expect of myself.
Harvey (41:06):
Yeah.
Pen (41:06):
And I didn't hardcore relapse. I had some relapses,
but not hardcore. And I didn'tdie.
Harvey (41:13):
You didn't, you're still here. And I'm so glad you are.
Pen (41:16):
So am I! I'm into that.
And, you know, during a periodlike that, that's enough,
sometimes. That's - that's whatyou being okay can look like.
Harvey (41:31):
This is... I think, if I'm summing up my feelings-
Pen (41:34):
Please, yes.
Harvey (41:36):
This is actually reminding me of something.
Recovery, for me, is about hope,too. And I mentioned, I'll kind
of bring this back in by saying,do you remember that time -
gosh, it probably would havebeen my freshman year of college
- so your junior year, and therewas that rally on our campus for
(41:58):
trans rights.
Pen (41:59):
Yeah.
Harvey (42:00):
And there was this really emotional period where we
had just gotten done reading thenames of people who, uh, had
been murdered.
Pen (42:09):
Yes.
Harvey (42:10):
And following that, one of the individuals facilitating
this event played a song. And itwas "26" by Paramore. I still
remember that, really vividly. Iremember it was cold. It was, I
think, January or February. Soit's cold. And you and I are
(42:34):
standing out there with a bunchof other trans people and our
allies. And I'm on the verge oftears listening to the song,
holding your hand, kind ofpaying attention to the warmth.
And I listened to that song onrepeat when I got home. And it's
just - it stays in my head,"Hold on to hope if you got it,"
(42:58):
that sort of thing. And thatexperience stuck with me. And
when the going gets tough,that's actually one of those
things that I think back to.
That I think back to - that Ithink back to this rally that a
lot of people might haveforgotten about. And I think
back to "26" by Paramore. Andfor me, that's some of what
(43:22):
recovery is. It's holding on tohope. It's finding hope, you
know? Kind of going be-beyondthe, "if you got it," but making
it so you got it...
Pen (43:38):
Yeah.
Harvey (43:39):
...because I don't have a choice. If I want to recover,
if I want to keep going, I gotto hold on to hope. And the good
news is I actually - I have alot to live for at this point.
Pen (43:54):
That is good news.
Harvey (43:55):
Way too much to throw away.
Pen (43:59):
That's beautiful, Harvey.
Harvey (44:01):
Aw, shucks, thank you.
Pen (44:02):
Yeah.
Harvey (44:03):
I'm shocked I was able to be that coherent while
playing Tetris on my phone.
Pen (44:08):
Autism!
Harvey (44:10):
Something, something...
There's a word for thatm ut Ican't remember it. I forgor.
Pen (44:16):
You forgor.
Harvey (44:17):
I forgor. I don't rember.
Pen (44:18):
You don't rember.
Harvey (44:20):
But yeah, I think recovery for me is hope. It's
recognizing that I'm - that I'mnot done. I am far from done. I
might never be done. I'mprobably going to continue to
hurt and there are going to betimes where I'm doing really
well, and I'm going to fall backdown again. And I just have to
(44:40):
recognize that even if thingssuck - if they suck so bad,
which they do right now -there's still something.
Pen (44:50):
Yeah.
Harvey (44:50):
That there's a lot to keep pushing for.
Pen (44:53):
Yeah.
Harvey (44:55):
So I'm wondering if you have any final thoughts before
we really wrap up.
Pen (45:02):
I think, in an attempt to try and tie things together...
Harvey (45:07):
I feel like I was relevant!
Pen (45:09):
You were! You absolutely were. I'm saying that mine was
less...
Harvey (45:13):
Oh, hush.
Pen (45:14):
...like right on the dot.
You know me, Harvey, I'm likethis.
Harvey (45:17):
I'm pulling a gun. I'm pointing a gun at you, and I am
telling you-
Pen (45:21):
You're playing Tetris on your phone.
Harvey (45:22):
Shut up! I'm telling you to be nice to yourself. I'm
trying to sell the image. Nobodycan see us! God!
Pen (45:28):
They're playing Tetris on their phone. Well, actually,
kind of related to that,recovery, I think, especially in
different - I think there arestages to it.
Harvey (45:39):
Of course.
Pen (45:40):
Or, you know what? I think there's checkpoints in recovery.
Harvey (45:44):
Hey, I like that! I like checkpoints.
Pen (45:47):
Thank you. Because I think stages - it implies you're going
to stay within a certain range.
Harvey (45:54):
And you're just not.
Pen (45:55):
No. But like, I hit the recovery checkpoint of, I don't
want to die anymore. I hit therecovery checkpoint of, I am no
longer doing some of theseharmful things. I hit the
recovery checkpoint of learninghow to forgive myself, and allow
(46:16):
myself to just do things. And Ithink that's been one of the
most significant for me. Andthat's like, one of the very,
very big recovery checkpointsthat I hit, was forgiving myself
and allowing myself to beimperfect and mentally ill and
disabled. But not to, like, hatemyself for having executive
(46:36):
dysfunction.
Harvey (46:38):
You're meeting yourself where you're at.
Pen (46:40):
Yes! Which I think is very important, and a difficult thing
to do.
Harvey (46:44):
Especially in an inherently ableist society where
that exact thing is discouraged.
Pen (46:49):
Yes.
Harvey (46:50):
And bad. And you should just strive to be normal.
Pen (46:54):
And the kind of things that can help, or like, you know,
when you've reached certainpoints, then you're able to
engage with other things. WhatI'm trying to say is, when I was
self-harming multiple times aweek, I wouldn't have been able
to play the piano.
Harvey (47:13):
Right. And now you can, and it's not out of a sense of
obligation, it's for yourwell-being.
Pen (47:19):
Yes. And so sometimes, you can hit these points, and it's
like, okay, you have that now.
You - you have done that. Itdoesn't mean everything's going
to be easy. It doesn't mean Inever relapse, or I never deal
with other things. It means Ican give myself a bit more
slack, and that can free updoing other things like...
recovery, for me, has looked alot like accepting myself, and a
(47:42):
lot like finding meaning andfinding joy in things that I
couldn't before. Guess what,Harvey? And this will not make
sense to a lot of our listeners,I like scavenger hunts.
Harvey (47:59):
Oh, wow.
Pen (48:00):
And puzzles.
Harvey (48:01):
Yeah, that's... for those of you who lack the
context, that's a big deal.
Pen (48:05):
Yeah, those used to be extreme, extreme, major trauma
triggers for me. I can - I playthe piano, because I'm
experiencing intense, intenseemotions. I like doing puzzles.
Those are things that hurt me somuch as a kid. And if I hadn't
reached certain checkpoints, ifI hadn't accepted certain things
(48:26):
about myself, I couldn't beworking on my recovery with
these things that seem... likethey shouldn't be part of it. Or
like, this isn't how you makeyour mental health better! You
don't do a puzzle about that.
You don't play Homestuck piano.
Harvey (48:43):
[Laughing] You don't have to call yourself out like
that.
Pen (48:44):
Yes, I did. did. You don't have to do that. That's not how
you feel better. And it's like,actually, sometimes it is.
Harvey (48:52):
So what's your favorite Homestuck song to play on the
piano?
Pen (48:54):
Showtime's the easiest, because it's the one that's
actually made for piano.
Harvey (48:57):
That's a good choice.
Pen (48:58):
But if I fudge around and you know, adapt a lot of things,
Derse Dreamers is really - itcan be fun.
Harvey (49:06):
I respect that.
Pen (49:07):
I have to change it a lot.
I have to do that for a lot ofsongs. I have small hands.
That's bad for piano playing.
Harvey (49:12):
Unfortunate. You know, I think I'm - I think that's the
crux for me. It's not justfinding meaning, but finding
joy. You saying finding joyreally resonates with me.
Pen (49:23):
Finding joy, and... one of my favorite quotes of all time,
is you've got to choose joy. Howdo you - how do you find - and
I'm paraphrasing - how do you -how do you find joy? You choose
it. You choose to find joy inother people, and the things
(49:47):
that you do, because at the endof the day, that's all you've
got.
Harvey (49:52):
That's what the Wahoo! Moment is.
Pen (49:53):
Yeah. It's - you have to find it. You have to choose it.
Sometimes it doesn't look theway that you or other people
expect, but at the end of theday, that's what you got.
Harvey (50:08):
It's yours.
Pen (50:09):
It is!
Harvey (50:10):
Hold on to hope if you got it.
Pen (50:12):
Hold onto hope...
Harvey (50:14):
....if you got it.
Pen (50:17):
This is Pen-Harvey karaoke hour.
Harvey (50:20):
And the other part of that lyric is, don't let it go
for nobody.
Pen (50:23):
No, don't! Do things for yourself. Love y- even if you
can't love yourself yet, don't -don't begrudge yourself hope.
Harvey (50:39):
Yeah. I think that's a lovely note to end on. So, stick
around for just a few moremoments, and we'll tell you a
little bit more about how thispodcast is run. Good episode,
Pen.
Pen (50:50):
Yeah, good job Harvey! [Clapping]
Harvey (50:55):
Beyond introspection is an independently run podcast by
Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord.
Music by Girl Lloyd. You canfind us on Twitter and Instagram
at BYNDpodcast. Or you can emailus at beyonddot—that's D O T—
podcast@gmail.com. We publish onBuzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or
wherever you get your podcasts.
(51:15):
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description. Gotfeedback for us? Feel free to
reach out on social media or viaemail. We'd love to hear from
everyone. Take care ofyourselves.
Hello everybody, and welcome to Beyond Introspection:
A podcast about mental health,neurodivergence and how it
impacts our life in literallyevery way.
Harvey (00:20):
All of them.
Pen (00:21):
I'm Pen.
Harvey (00:21):
And I'm Harvey.
Pen (00:22):
And this time we're gonna be talking about recovery.
Harvey (00:27):
Wow, we haven't recorded in, like, 12,000 years.
Pen (00:30):
Yeah, it's actually been - it's been a minute. But you
know, we've been doing thepodcast long enough that right
before I hit record, I was like,"Do I remember the intro? Oh,
shoot, I do!"
Harvey (00:40):
You got it right for the most part. It was pretty close.
Pen (00:43):
What did I? What did-
Harvey (00:45):
It goes, um, "A podcast about mental health,
neurodivergence, and how itimpacts literally every aspect
of our lives."
Pen (00:52):
Oh.
Harvey (00:53):
All of them.
Pen (00:54):
All of them. Ah, well...
Harvey (00:56):
You got the same effect, so like, who cares?
Pen (00:58):
It scans. That's what counts.
Harvey (01:00):
Exactly. I'm not - I'm not a real stickler about it.
Pen (01:05):
Uh, yeah, so, Harvey...
Harvey (01:05):
Pen?
Pen (01:05):
Do you remember the first segment of our show - segment's
funny. It implies that this showis a lot more structured than it
actually is. But do you do yourecall what the first segment of
our show is? Besides giving Pena hard time about the intro?
Harvey (01:21):
Ugh, hey...
Pen (01:22):
It's a joke, it's a joke!
Harvey (01:24):
Of course I do, the Wahoo! Moment of the Existence.
Pen (01:26):
...of the exist- right, yes.
Harvey (01:28):
Of the last time we recorded.
Pen (01:30):
Yes.
Harvey (01:30):
Time is not real.
Pen (01:32):
Time is not real.
Harvey (01:33):
Pen, tell me! Tell me about a recent-ish Wahoo!
Moment.
Pen (01:39):
My Wahoo!-
Harvey (01:39):
Wahoo!
Pen (01:42):
That's my Wahoo!, is just listening to you say it.
Harvey (01:46):
I'm a good mimic.
Pen (01:46):
You are. Yeah, so I thought about this right before we hit
record, also..
Harvey (01:53):
Obsessed, as usual.
That's okay.
Pen (01:54):
Yeah, yeah. I think, especially given I don't know
how long it's been exactly, andhave probably gone through
multiple hyper fixation sincethen, as is my want.
Harvey (02:06):
Yeah, I was gonna say at least two...? I don't know, I'm
just pulling a number out of my- out of my behind. Anyway, Pen,
please.
Pen (02:16):
I like my job. My job's pretty good. And I know I've
mentioned before that my job ispretty good, and I feel pretty
good about it.
Harvey (02:27):
Ohh, sleepytired.
Pen (02:28):
A little bit. It's an end-of-day recording instead of
afternoon recording.
Harvey (02:32):
Unusual. I was at work, like all day,
Pen (02:36):
But I like my job, and also, it has been such a major
facet of my social anxietygetting better.
Harvey (02:42):
That's awesome.
Pen (02:43):
And it's really cool to get to, like, consciously notice,
"Oh, wow, I feel reallyconfident right now. Like I feel
fine." Like on - yesterday, Iwas at work, and I finished up a
project I was - I was puttingtogether, which is a little
guide on our 3D printers.
Harvey (03:03):
Super cool and important.
Pen (03:05):
Because, uh... and not like - like, we have manuals for
them. But I'm the one who usesthem the most, and so it's kind
of like, you know, experientialknowledge with our specific
ones. Here's the basics that areuseful.
Harvey (03:16):
Right, and you have some of that troubleshooting
knowledge that might not occurto everyone.
Pen (03:20):
Mhm. And also the knowledge on like, "Hey, so this is
something that's worthtroubleshooting in the moment,
this is something that's reallynot. Like, leave this for later.
Or ask Pen." And I added somejokes to it, because I'm really
funny.
Harvey (03:32):
God, I love you.
Pen (03:33):
The, um, my least favorite of the 3d printers, a Sculpto.
Hey, if you're thinking into 3Dprinters, one Prusas? I'm really
bias, but Prusa's a great brand;two, don't get a Sculpto, don't
get a Sculpto, don't get aSculpto. Don't - don't do it.
Don't get it. Don't - don't doit. It's not worth it.
Harvey (03:47):
Well, there goes that sponsorship deal.
Pen (03:49):
It's - it's one of those that, like, mom blogs, where
there's, like, the first entry,and it's like, "Wow, it was so
great, and it was super easy tohook up and use with my kids!"
and then there's an update amonth later like, "This was a
waste of money, don't do it."But yeah, so I added some jokes,
like our Sculpto that my bossuses, and he likes it, and I'm
(04:10):
happy for him, but...
Harvey (04:12):
Well, that's unfortunate.
Pen (04:14):
Look, I'm glad that-
Harvey (04:15):
Not that you're happy for him. That's okay.
First heading, Expectations (04:17):
If you're not Mark, please do not
use this printer.
Harvey (04:26):
That's pretty good.
Pen (04:26):
Thank you.
Harvey (04:28):
Mark.
Pen (04:30):
But yeah, so I made up that guide, and I printed it out and
I was like, "Hey Mark, will youlook at this?" And he was like,
"Yeah, sure." And it occurred tome like, hm, a while ago, I
would have felt so anxious abouthanding someone a thing that I
had made. Like, literally,doesn't matter what it was. But
(04:52):
especially, like, I'm making aguide for people, like staff who
want to use our 3D printers, I'dbe, like, so nervous about any
small correction, and then Irealized at that moment like I
felt fine and confident aboutwhat I'd handed him. It was
just, like, fine. I was like,whoa!
Harvey (05:08):
Look at you!
Pen (05:09):
I didn't know that could happen.
Harvey (05:10):
And look at how well that connects to today's topic,
which we'll get into soon.
Pen (05:14):
Oh right, yeah! So Harvey, what's your Wahoo! Moment of
Time.
Time?
Time.
Harvey (05:21):
Yeah, I... [laughs] I feel like I say this every time
we record, and it's probablybecause, lately, we've been
doing such long stretcheswithout recording. I've been
going through it again. There's- there's been a couple things.
Going through another breakup,just generally another
depressive spell, because that'show persistent depressive
(05:44):
disorder works. But I have a newjob.
Pen (05:49):
Harvey has a job!
Harvey (05:50):
I have a job and it's my very first full-time job.
Pen (05:53):
Haha, job-haver.
Harvey (05:55):
Okay, pot calling the kettle black, but all right. In
any case, yeah, I have my veryfirst full-time job. And if I'm
being honest, I don't think Iknew entirely what I was walking
into, because I have a very,I'll say emotionally intensive
job. I work in a domesticviolence shelter as a case
(06:16):
manager, which is a lot, butit's...
Pen (06:19):
That sounds like a lot, yeah.
Harvey (06:20):
You know, everyone there is honestly just wonderful. I've
only had positive interactionswith my coworkers and my
supervisors.
Pen (06:30):
Nice!
Harvey (06:31):
It's... no, everyone there is really lovely, and even
though I know I'm going to be infor a difficult ride with this
job, I think it's going to beworth it. And I'm really looking
forward to doing something withmy life that really feels like
it has an impact.
Pen (06:47):
Yeah.
Harvey (06:47):
Like this is going to be... if I do my job well, this
is going to be such, like,tangible, positive stuff. I kind
of lost my train of thought inthe middle of that, but you know
what I'm saying.
Pen (06:59):
Like, you're doing something that has a positive
impact on people's lives, andyou get to like, see that, and
that it's a really big deal,even.
Harvey (07:06):
Yeah, and you know, it's not always going to be sunshine
and rainbows. Actually, probablymost of the time, it's not going
to be, because this is - I mean,this is domestic violence. These
are people who have gone throughhell.
Pen (07:16):
Yeah. Like there's - there's not a... you walk in,
and it's bad.
Harvey (07:21):
It - these are people who are deeply, horribly
traumatized. And if I can bepart of the solution, that's
super exciting. Also, it pays 21an hour, and I have benefits,
which is exciting. So yeah,that's - I think that's mine.
Pen (07:37):
That's great. I'm really happy for you. And I'm proud of
you. And I love you very much.
Harvey (07:42):
I love you too. And yeah, as I sort of alluded to...
Pen (07:46):
Speaking of trauma!
Harvey (07:49):
Yeah. Uh-huh. Kind of as I alluded to, when we were
talking about Pen's, Wahoo!Moment of the Time, we're
talking today about recovery,which is maybe one of the
broadest things I could havesaid today, but...
Pen (08:06):
It is, now that I'm thinking on it, a very vague
thing to say. Which is not acomplaint, because I...
Harvey (08:14):
'Cause, well...
Pen (08:15):
You posited this a while ago, because we ended up not
recording.
Harvey (08:20):
We were having audio issues that day.
Pen (08:21):
We were having audio issues. But I'm very into the
idea of - of doing something onrecovery, I think, in part,
because it's so open.
Harvey (08:30):
Yeah. Like, it can be so many things.
Pen (08:35):
Harvey, talk about what recovery is.
Harvey (08:37):
Sure! Recovery can mean a lot of things. And it honestly
really depends on, you know,what sort of dimension of
recovery we're looking at. As itpertains to mental health, for
some people, recovery might betotal remission from symptoms.
So that might be, at one point,you met the clinical criteria
for depression, and now youdon't. That could be a kind of
(09:01):
recovery. Sometimes, you know,if we're talking about, like,
substance use, for example,recovery might be using less
often. And maybe not using harddrugs anymore. Maybe... maybe
using something a little bitlighter. And, you know, going
back to the mental healthperspective, it could be that
(09:23):
recovery - the way that I definerecovery is just the ongoing
process of... let methink...finding meaning in your
life and finding function whileaccommodating for your
particular struggles, which is areally wordy way of putting it,
(09:45):
but I think, you know, with mecoming up with an off-the-cuff
definition, I think that'sprobably how I would
conceptualize it. That it'sjust, recovery, to me, is this
really ongoing process oflearning how to not just work
around, but also work with, yourindividual challenges to make a
(10:05):
life that is meaningful andproductive to you, whatever that
means.
Pen (10:10):
Yeah. Making the choice and the effort to improve upon
whatever it is that is harming,that is negative.
Harvey (10:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that gets at the idea.
Pen (10:30):
Or just like, I mean, improvement upon the negative,
if we're going extremely broad.
Harvey (10:34):
Yeah. It can be... it can be a lot of things, which is
kind of why this is such anoddball topic, because it's
just... recovery can be so manythings that it's - it's honestly
a little bit tricky to definewithout thinking, "Oh, wait, but
what about this? And what aboutthat?" and so on and so forth.
Pen (10:53):
And for our purposes, and also for us as people, really
strict definition is really notnecessary or - or wholly useful.
Harvey (11:02):
I have a degree in gender studies, of course not.
Pen (11:06):
I just made you do it, because you're the psych one.
Harvey (11:08):
Yeah, no, that's fair.
That's - that's - that's my jobin this...
Pen (11:11):
Honestly, I'm so used to you being like, "And I can
define that," that I was like,yeah, let's just throw it to
Harvey.
Harvey (11:18):
And yeah, I mean, well, I appreciate you having that
faith in me, and also, yeah,there's not one definition of
recovery. Kind of the point ofrecovery is that it's going to
be very individualized,depending on your specific
struggles and your...
Pen (11:34):
And goals.
Harvey (11:35):
Yeah, that's the thing.
I think so many people have itin their minds that recovery,
with regard to mental health,means just behaving like someone
who is not mentally ill, or as,like, a neurotypical person. And
for most people who strugglewith their mental health, I'm
gonna say that's just notrealistic.
Pen (11:57):
No. There are cases where that's not going to be, like,
possible. Obviously, it would bewonderful if everyone who meets
the criteria for... as the basicexample, depression, someday
doesn't, but that's... that's areally, really big goal, and
you're going to put a lot ofpressure on yourself to get to
that point, and it's actuallygoing to harm your recovery to
(12:20):
do that.
Harvey (12:21):
Yeah. And I think, you know, before I get too ahead of
myself, and so we don't do likethe... the stream of
consciousness that this podcastends up falling into, Pen, I
know you had some specificthoughts on recovery that you
were talking to me about over,like, Discord, I think. So I was
wondering if you wanted to touchon that.
Pen (12:41):
So recovery for me, when I'm thinking about it, it has
largely been tied... like it'sso tied to trauma for me, and
you know, a lot of the time whenI talk about my trauma, I'm
talking about my childhoodtrauma. But there's also...
maybe there's trauma and beingmentally ill...
Harvey (13:02):
Inherently.
Pen (13:02):
...and experiencing it, and like...
Harvey (13:04):
With how just alienating the experience of being mentally
ill is, yeah.
Pen (13:08):
And how much it sucks.
Harvey (13:10):
Yeah, it just sucks.
Pen (13:11):
Like, if depression didn't suck, [laughing] If depression
wasn't miserable and horrible toexperience, it wouldn't be what
it is. Which is a... kind of anodd way to phrase it, but...
Harvey (13:22):
But I get what you're saying, I think,.I don't know if
I could explain it, but I thinkI understand.
Pen (13:26):
It's,... it's like, you know, experiencing these things.
It's not just the symptomsthemselves, it's the awareness
of the symptoms, and living withthe symptoms, and like... I had
to recover... not only did Ihave, like, the experience and
process of improving my mentalstate, and no longer actively
(13:50):
being super depressed, or havingas many depressive episodes, I
also had to work on, like,sticking to positive habits,
not... like, the after-effectsof what depression does to your
mind.
Harvey (14:10):
Yeah.
Pen (14:10):
You know?
Harvey (14:11):
Yeah.
Pen (14:11):
Of what it does to relationships and all of that,
like it. It's not justrecovering from the actual
symptoms, it's recovering fromthe experience.
Harvey (14:19):
Well, yeah. And you know, I'm not going to get super
in-depth with this, because Ithink I would just spend way too
long on the topic, butdepression and many other mental
illnesses, but because we'retalking about depression and
your depression, depressionchanges your brain. It's...
like, I'm reluctant to say braindamage, but it... in some ways,
(14:43):
it does legitimately damage yourbrain, especially when you are
chronically depressed. Which,if... well, I've known you long
enough to know that that's whatit was.
Pen (14:52):
Oh, yeah. And it's - it's complex, and obviously, that
also had to do with childhoodtrauma. And... and so, recovery
for me is so intimately tiedwith trauma, whether that is the
childhood trauma or the traumaof experiencing mental illness.
Or, I mean, there's trauma andhaving ADHD.
Harvey (15:12):
Yeah. Again, alienation.
Pen (15:15):
Alienation is trauma and being disabled.
Harvey (15:18):
Wow, who would have thunk it? In an ableist society?
Pen (15:21):
For real.
Harvey (15:21):
That's crazy.
Pen (15:23):
And, you know, there's all of that. And what I was thinking
of, most recently, with talkingabout recovery was linked to my
childhood trauma, becauseeverything's about my childhood
trauma.
Harvey (15:33):
Natch.
Pen (15:34):
Everything. Ask my therapists.
Harvey (15:38):
And I mean, we could have a legitimate conversation
about how pervasive trauma is,but continue.
Pen (15:44):
I think the most particular form of recovery for me, or way
that, like, recovery fromcertain aspects of my childhood
trauma has manifested is inrelation - my relationship with
the piano?
Harvey (16:02):
Oh, yes, that's right.
Pen (16:03):
And this is very, very specific. So we can get back to
it later if you'd prefer. Solike...
Harvey (16:07):
Actually, I'd love to hear your piano story.
Pen (16:10):
Okay, so I have - my piano story is, um... it starts in a
bad place.
Harvey (16:15):
Okay. Vibes.
Pen (16:17):
So when I was five, my mom was like, "Hey, pick a musical
instrument to learn." Becauseyou know, that's good for kids.
It's like a good thing for theirbrains.
Harvey (16:24):
Yeah.
Pen (16:24):
This is not the sad part.
That's fine.
Harvey (16:26):
Yeah.
Pen (16:27):
And I was like, piano, which is a pretty good pick. I'd
say.
Harvey (16:31):
It's a very difficult instrument to learn, but it's a
cool one.
Pen (16:34):
It is. It's a neat one. And it's very transferable. Like, I
played the flute later, and Ialready knew how to read music
and all of it, and like, whenyou learn the piano, you learn
how to read both treble and bassclef. I guess not alto clef, but
that's only for violas, so whocares?
Harvey (16:48):
Exactly. Well, probably violas.
Pen (16:50):
Probably violas. This is what happens when you're dating
someone who played upright bass.
Harvey (16:58):
That's right. God, I forgot she did that.
Pen (17:03):
Yeah. And she's happier for not doing it anymore. Better for
her hands, too.
Harvey (17:07):
Yeah, yeah, that checks out.
Pen (17:09):
But I was like, piano. So we got an electric piano. And I
have very, very vague memoriesof this, because, you know, I
was five. And so they put meinto piano lessons, which is the
thing that you do when a childneeds to learn how to play an
instrument.
Harvey (17:22):
Yeah, give them lessons so they can learn.
Pen (17:25):
I was in piano lessons from age five to age eight.
Harvey (17:30):
Okay.
Pen (17:30):
And it became... it's like, capital P, capital L, Piano
Lessons, when I talk about thosein my childhood.
Harvey (17:43):
So they got pretty serious.
Pen (17:46):
It was extremely bad. It...
I don't like going into depthreally, necessarily...
Harvey (17:56):
And you don't have to.
Pen (17:57):
...on certain aspects of certain consistent aspects on my
childhood trauma.
Harvey (18:01):
Sure.
Pen (18:02):
But my mom took it very hardcore. And it was like, 30
minutes a day, every day. And itwas a... I'll just say it was a
problem if that didn't happen,or if I didn't meet certain
standards. The other major partof it was that my piano teacher
was not a very gentle woman.
Harvey (18:24):
Ah.
Pen (18:25):
I was a really easy crier when I was a kid because I was
extremely, extremely anxious.
Harvey (18:30):
Yeah. And also, kids just, like, cry.
Pen (18:32):
Yeah, you know, especially that from when they're, like,
six or seven years old.
Harvey (18:37):
Have you ever interacted with a six year old? They're so
sensitive, and who can blamethem? They don't have the, uh...
the life experience to selfregulate. Yeah.
Pen (18:44):
So hey, Harvey.
Harvey (18:46):
Yeah.
Pen (18:47):
What would you... if there was a seven year old who was
playing the piano and keptmaking a mistake, and... and got
anxious and cried about it, whatwould - what would you maybe say
to that seven year old?
Harvey (18:59):
I think I would say, "Hey, it seems like you're
getting really frustrated. And Iknow it can be really hard when
you keep making mistakes. Let meshow you... um, why don't we
take a little break first, andthen once you're feeling a
little better, why don't I showyou how I do it, and then we'll
try again, okay?
Pen (19:20):
So you wouldn't say, "Stop with the waterworks!"?
Harvey (19:24):
Heavens, no. Jesus, why would you do that?
Pen (19:26):
I don't know. But that was her tactic.
Harvey (19:28):
Uh, I'm gonna bite her?
Pen (19:30):
Yeah, she yelled at me for crying...
Harvey (19:32):
That's so ugly.
Pen (19:32):
...which, you know, made me cry more.
Harvey (19:35):
Obviously.
Pen (19:36):
I was seven.
Harvey (19:37):
You can't just tell a child not to cry. They're just
gonna learn to stifle theiremotions.
Pen (19:42):
Yeah, they will. They did, in fact. And that wasn't just
because of her, but she wascertainly a negative impact on
my mental health as a child. Sothat was her and so she was
really strict about it, and itwasn't... and it was a whole
thing, and also... so there'sactually some stuff on people
(20:04):
with, especially ADHD andautism, but neurodivergent
people being able to play byear.
Harvey (20:13):
That's interesting.
Pen (20:13):
It is. It is. And there's like... I don't know how much
research there is in it, butit's a well known enough
phenomenon that like...
Harvey (20:21):
I've heard of it.
Pen (20:22):
...I feel pretty confident, like, that is why I can play by
ear, but I've always been ableto do that.
Harvey (20:28):
Sure. Well, and you've always had ADHD.
Pen (20:30):
Yeah, sure I sure have! The brain's always looked like this.
Harvey (20:35):
Wooow.
Pen (20:37):
But you know, so that means, um... and that is - it
can be, if you default toplaying by ear, it can be
detrimental to you knowing someof the fundamentals and the
basics, because you're not...
because then you're going -you're not paying attention to
some specific things. You'repredicting what should come
next, instead of reading themusic, or like, you know, doing
(20:57):
the fundamentals that aregenuinely important for you to
build upon.
Harvey (21:04):
I'm not a musician, so I believe you.
Pen (21:08):
That said, playing by ear is also considered a skill that
is worth honing. People takeclasses to learn how to play by
ear.
Harvey (21:18):
Yeah.
Pen (21:19):
I didn't learn that until I was 20.
Harvey (21:22):
Oh, wow.
Pen (21:24):
And my girlfriend, you know, who was at the time a
music major, told me that, andwas like...
Harvey (21:31):
She's extremely talented.
Pen (21:32):
Extremely! She's... she's really, really good, and really,
really cool. I like her.
Harvey (21:37):
We like Girl Lloyd.
Pen (21:38):
We do. But she... I was like, yeah, I can play by ear.
And she was like, "Oh, that's -that's great. Like, people do
that." And I was like, what?
Because my piano teacher yelledat me for playing by ear. And it
was a major thing, she - shewould get on me about it all the
time because I did that all thetime, because I could predict
what was going to come next. SoI just naturally did it.
Harvey (22:02):
And I'm going to be frank, you were at least
partially in survival mode.
Pen (22:09):
Mm-hmm.
Harvey (22:09):
In the sense that... to your seven year old mind,
whether or not you were anactual danger, you felt
threatened. And so, I think insome ways, you were probably
trying to avoid harm.
Pen (22:21):
Oh, yeah. And like, of course, I was working more by
instinct. I was a child and abeginner. And my brain was like,
oh, we know what the next partis. And I was right, a lot of
the time.
Harvey (22:35):
But it wasn't the, quote unquote, right way.
Pen (22:37):
It wasn't. And there are some parts of like, the
fundamentals, that genuinely,it's totally fair. And there are
other parts of like, you shouldnever talk to a child that way.
Harvey (22:44):
Yeah, like, being that firm with a child who is upset
because they're frustrated, andbecause they're being snapped
at, the... this is like, youknow, like... human skills 101
that you just - if somebody isgetting - and you're going to
hear me use language that Iwould use it my job - if
(23:07):
somebody is getting escalated,the point is not, then, to
escalate it further.
Pen (23:13):
Yeah, no. And also like, I wouldn't even be crying because
I was frustrated. I was cryingbecause I was scared, because I
knew if I made mistakes, she wasgoing to be mad at me.
Harvey (23:21):
Exactly.
Pen (23:22):
So like, it was all just...
but then learning that, like,playing by ear isn't a bad
thing, and in fact, people willtry to learn how to do it, I was
like, are you kidding me rightnow?!
Harvey (23:32):
I bet.
Pen (23:32):
I assumed, because of how hard she was on me, that I was
not good at playing the piano,and that I was just like - that
I was bad at it, and I never gotgood at it. Come to find out,
according to my girlfriend, themusic major, not only do I have
(23:54):
- I think because I started atsuch a young age - I do have
like, kind of a natural aptitudefor it, because, you know, it's
like when kids learn languagesat super young ages, they just
kind of have it forever.
Harvey (24:07):
Right.
Pen (24:08):
I have that with at least some aspects of playing music in
general, but especially withplaying the piano.
Harvey (24:15):
Yeah.
Pen (24:15):
I started at five. There are parts of it all that I'll
always know.
Harvey (24:18):
It's just part of your procedural memory at this point.
Pen (24:21):
And according to her at least, like, it kind of comes
through in the way that I play,even if I'm just, like, messing
around. And also that, like,playing by ear is a cool thing
that's worth cultivating. And Iwas simultaneously so like, wow,
this is... like, it's a reliefto learn this, and it's
(24:42):
interesting to learn this,and... and this is valuable, and
so mad.
Harvey (24:46):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Pen (24:48):
And - and I found some of the old books that I was
learning from and playing from,and I was looking at it, and I
was like, wait I played thiswhen I was seven years old? Hey,
I was pretty good! Are youserious right now?! You mean I
was good at this, and you guystreated me like hell?!
Harvey (25:04):
Yeah.
Pen (25:05):
So, you know...
Harvey (25:06):
That's real.
Pen (25:07):
That was... that was why it was Piano Lessons, capital P,
capital L, when - as I wasgetting older, because it was,
like, Piano Lessons were bad.
And it was largely because of mygirlfriend, actually, had her,
like, very gentle encouragement,and just genuine, like... just
(25:29):
saying what she meant and thestuff that she was saying was
just, like... things I've neverimagined being applied to me and
music.
Harvey (25:40):
Yeah.
Pen (25:41):
That I was able to cultivate a new and - and better
relationship with the piano atall. And now like, I have that
piano in my apartment.
Harvey (25:52):
Yeah. Actually, like five feet behind me, probably.
Pen (25:56):
Yeah, there's not a ton of room, but it's-it's a pretty
nice one. It's - it's like,fairly old, but it works real
well. Electric piano, you can'tmess it up by transporting it.
No strings.
Harvey (26:06):
It's a piano!
Pen (26:07):
It's a piano! And so now, when I'm feeling some kinds of
emotions. Like, any kind ofintense emotion, but also, there
are some, like, categories, andespecially when it has to do
with specific kinds of trauma,especially my childhood trauma,
(26:27):
I play piano about it. LikeI.... I'll get this kind of
itch, and I'll sit down, andI'll just play piano about it.
And it doesn't always - itusually doesn't even matter what
song I'm playing. It's justplaying lets me experience it
and kind of process it...
Harvey (26:47):
Yeah.
Pen (26:48):
...in a very particular way. And I think part of the
reason that it's so helpful isbecause playing the piano, I
learned at such a fundamentalpoint in my life.
Harvey (27:00):
Yeah.
Pen (27:01):
So legitimately, you know, kind of - to not just tell the
story of some of Pen's childhoodtrauma, but to tie it back to
recovery, it's.... this thingthat was fundamental to the
trauma in the first place hasalso become such an incredibly
useful tool in recovery. Andthat feeling is... like, that's
(27:24):
not easy. It's - it's not easyto get to that point with
something that you have suchintense associations with.
Harvey (27:34):
Yeah.
Pen (27:34):
Because my piano lessons were really, really, really bad.
They were bad. It was bad as akid.
Harvey (27:40):
Yeah.
Pen (27:41):
And now - and like, it wasn't super easy. Like I was,
for quite a while after Istarted playing again, I was
super sensitive to any kind ofcriticism. And that's, you know,
complicated too, and I had somebreakdowns about it. But now,
I'm - I'm at this point where,like, I had a conversation with
(28:02):
my grandmother about brought upsome really, really incredibly
intense things on thegenerational trauma of my
family, and I played piano aboutit, and it helped. And that's
something I never could haveimagined happening. It's - it's
(28:25):
a... recovery looks - it sorarely, I think, looks like what
people expect it to look like.
Harvey (28:37):
It's a very holistic process, I think. I think people
don't always think of recoveryas reclamation, which is
literally what it was for you.
Pen (28:46):
And not just - it's - it's not even just the reclamation,
because my... it's like - it isin some ways, because I can
communicate and feel and talkwith piano differently than any
other way.
Harvey (29:05):
Yeah.
Pen (29:06):
And there's - there's a reclamation part of that, and
there's also a kind ofre-experiencing. It's like
reaching out a hand to kid me,and getting to, like, reconnect
those parts of myself. And like,using it to process emotions now
(29:28):
helps me process the traumaitself, which just then goes on
forward.
Harvey (29:35):
Yeah. That's really powerful stuff, Pen.
Pen (29:38):
Thank you. It's - I think about it.
Harvey (29:41):
Yeah, I can tell. And it sounds like that's become a
really important coping skillfor you.
Pen (29:50):
That's - yeah, that feels like - like that tangent maybe
went on a bit. That's my - thatwas, like, the first thing I
thought of when you brought uprecovery.
Harvey (30:02):
And it was a good conversation.
Pen (30:04):
Oh, thank you. Do you - let's - hey.
Harvey (30:07):
Yeah!
Pen (30:07):
Recovery.
Harvey (30:08):
Yeah.
Pen (30:09):
Harvey.
Harvey (30:11):
Yeah, my recovery. And that's a that's an interesting
subject because I don't think Ialways recognize it. But the
truth is I actually have like,really severe mental health
issues when I really think aboutit.
Pen (30:27):
Yeah...
Harvey (30:28):
Like, I... and you know, not to put a judgment call on
that, but it's not severe in thesense of like, I don't
experience psychosis, I don'texperience delusions. I've
experienced psychosis once in mylife, and it was because of
weed. [Laughing] It was becauseI got too high. But you know...
Pen (30:48):
Wasn't that in a Walmart parking lot?
Harvey (30:50):
Yes.
Pen (30:51):
That's, uh... that feels like the right place to
experience it.
Harvey (30:54):
Yeah. Still dating the guy, too. He's wonderful. But,
you know, so I don't have - Idon't have those kinds of
problems. And that's, you know,that's not necessarily to create
a hierarchy, or that like, "Oh,those people,"they're just not
the issues I have. It's morethat I have some of the more,
quote unquote, run -run-of-the-mill disorders like
(31:15):
depression and anxiety, butthey're really bad.
Pen (31:22):
Accurate.
Harvey (31:23):
I've - I've mentioned, I think, on this show a couple of
times that I've been told byseveral clinicians that I have
some of the worst anxietythey've ever seen, which is
validating and extremelypainful.
Pen (31:35):
Yeah.
Harvey (31:36):
Mostly validating, I'll be honest. And my depression
ranges from moderate to severe,depending on how I'm doing and
what's happening. But there's acouple things that go into that.
And it's... I'm chronicallydepressed. That's literally the
(31:58):
definition of the disorder thatI have. I'm just depressed
pretty much all of the time,even when things are okay. And
the really tricky part of thatis I'm chronically suicidal.
Pen (32:09):
Mm-hmm.
Harvey (32:09):
And the tricky thing about that is, well...
Pen (32:17):
I mean, kind of all of it.
Harvey (32:18):
Yeah, I mean, when you're thinking about - in some
way or another, I am usuallythinking about suicide in some
way. And I won't get too intothis, because I don't want to
spend this entire segmenttalking about my suicidality.
But...
Pen (32:31):
That doesn't seem like it'd be nice for you.
Harvey (32:33):
I wouldn't say I'm suicidal all the time, because
I'm not. But it's always one ofthose things that's on the back
of my mind. So that gives yousome context for the severity.
The other thing, too, is I havesome pretty substantial issues
with substance use. I am,straight up, an alcoholic. And
(32:53):
I'm at a point now where I'verecovered enough, actually, and
I'll get into that, to drinkagain. And I only drink socially
at this point. Thankfully, Inever got into hard drugs. I'm
really glad that I never endedup there because I think I would
have been in a much rougherspot. And there was also a
(33:14):
period of time, about a year anda half, two years that I was
smoking cigarettes, and then thesmoking age changed to 21, and I
was 19. So straight up, I wasforced to stop smoking because I
couldn't get cigarettes anymore,because I had friends who loved
me that wouldn't buy them forme. So the - the nicotine
(33:35):
withdrawals were rough, but Ilived.
So all of this to say, like, Idon't talk about this a lot,
because - and I think there's alevel of shame for me. Because
this is the side of my mentalhealth issues that's ugly. And
(33:56):
that's socially unacceptable.
And it's the things that makepeople cringe and wince. And it
makes me cringe and wins,because I know... I know that
it's bad. And, you know, I'vebeen in and out of therapy since
I was five. I've been onmedication for... gosh, two and
(34:18):
a half years? For my mentalhealth? And there are still so
many things that I'm reallystruggling to find my way out
of. Pen, I know you've beenreally worried about me lately
because of some of the - heh -just the symptoms I've been
exhibiting.
And so for me, the thing thatI've learned about recovery,
(34:43):
from my own experiences, is thatrecovery is so not linear.
It's... I don't even know if Iwould call it a process.
Recovery is a lot of things. Ithink it really goes back and
forth. For me, like, I go intothese periods of remission, I
(35:06):
think when we started thepodcast, I was actually doing
really well. And currently, Iwould say I'm doing very poorly.
And, you know, so I go intothese periods of remission,
where I'm doing really well. Andthen I go into these periods
where I'm really severelydepressed again. And you know, I
have to keep certain householdobjects away from me because I
(35:28):
don't feel safe. And so I'vecertainly learned that it's not
linear. That sometimes recoverymeans that I'm going to fall
backwards. And there are dayswhere I'm going to feel like
garbage. And sometimes there aregoing to be weeks where I'm
going to feel like garbage.
But then I have to put it intoperspective, right? I need to
(35:51):
look at that and recognize that,if I was this level of depressed
in 2019...
Pen (35:58):
Ooh.
Harvey (35:59):
...I might not be alive.
Pen (36:01):
Yeah.
Harvey (36:03):
I've mentioned before, again, on the show that 2019 was
probably the lowest point in mylife. And yeah, I think if I
were dealing with this level ofdepression, then I do seriously
think that I might have donesomething. And I know that's
really heavy. But I - that's onecomponent of recovery, is kind
(36:27):
of looking at yourself and going"Well, I'm not doing well, but
I'm alive."
Pen (36:34):
Yeah. I mean, better than before is something significant.
Harvey (36:39):
It's - it's progress. It might be progress after
stumbling backwards severaltimes, but it's progress
nonetheless. And then there'splenty of other elements of
recovery for me, too. I have abetter relationship with
alcohol, for example. I candrink without feeling like I'm
out of control. And honestly,some of that is antidepressants.
(37:02):
Because one drink feels likethree.
Pen (37:03):
Yep!
Harvey (37:05):
So I just stop drinking a lot sooner, because my
tolerance is shot. Thanks,SSRIs. And I think too, I mean,
I haven't touched a cigarette inseveral years at this point. Not
since 2019. Actually, it's beena long time.
Pen (37:22):
Yeah, that's - that seems good. Pretty strictly good.
Harvey (37:26):
So you know, this is all... I think recovery for me
is recognizing that it's okaythat I'm not doing okay.
And I think a lot of ithas to be letting go of that
Pen (37:39):
Yes.
shame.
Yes.
Harvey (37:42):
I mentioned earlier that there was there's a lot of shame
for me around some of my mentalhealth issues, because they are
some of the less palatable ones,particularly substance use. I
think that's when it gets reallyheavily stigmatized.
Pen (37:57):
Yeah.
Harvey (37:58):
And yeah, it doesn't feel great to say, :Hey, yeah,
I'm a 22 year old alcoholic."But this is just where I'm at.
Pen (38:08):
Yeah.
Harvey (38:08):
There are a lot of reasons that I'm here. Some of
it is genetic factors.
Alcoholism runs in my family.
Mental health issues run in myfamily, and I'm also
traumatized.
Pen (38:18):
Yeah.
Harvey (38:20):
And these are all things that just lead to struggling,
right? And I'm still here.
Pen (38:26):
Yes.
Harvey (38:27):
I still get up in the morning, and I still find
meaning in my life. That didn'tal - that wasn't always true. So
that kind of has to be recovery.
I don't know what else it wouldbe.
Pen (38:41):
I... this is something that I talked about with my
therapist. Like, I think lastmonth, maybe, is... I mean, I
keep saying in sessions like,"Yeah, I'm doing okay. Got some
low level depression that's justthere," and you can only say
that so many times before yourealize you've said it every
(39:03):
time.
Harvey (39:03):
Yeah. And you're like, ooh.
Pen (39:05):
And I thought about it. And I was like, okay, so these
depressive swings keephappening, and they're keeping
things that are really difficultfor me to do, like the dishes,
or cleaning my room, or feedingmyself.
Harvey (39:20):
Vibes.
Pen (39:21):
Et cetera. But I keep saying I'm fine, too, or like,
it's not like it used to be. Andmaybe the goal isn't to not
experience these low leveldepressive spells ever. Maybe
the goal is to just managethem...
Harvey (39:43):
Yeah.
Pen (39:44):
...instead of just making it be gone.
Harvey (39:46):
That's real.
Pen (39:46):
Like, being better than what I used to be? Maybe that's
enough. It's definitelyrecovery.
Harvey (39:54):
That's - that's another thing. Recovery - I think one of
the things that it is, if we'rejust - if this episode is just
turning into creating a workingdefinition - recovery... oh,
schnickies, I lost the thought.
Pen (40:07):
No!
Harvey (40:09):
Recovery is relative.
Pen (40:10):
Yes.
Harvey (40:12):
Recovery changes. It involves moving the goalposts
constantly. You know, in periodsof time where I'm doing better,
it might be, hey, here's thisbig life goal that I want to
achieve. Let's work on that. Inperiods like right now, where
I'm really not doing okay, itlooks more like, hey, let's not
(40:36):
relapse.
Pen (40:37):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's...
yeah, that's actually somethingthat in the earlier stages of
hello, COVID, I realigned mydefinition of, like - of my- my
goal, pretty much every day, and
just shot it down to (40:58):
getting through the day is enough.
Harvey (41:01):
Yeah.
Pen (41:02):
That is all the work that I expect of myself.
Harvey (41:06):
Yeah.
Pen (41:06):
And I didn't hardcore relapse. I had some relapses,
but not hardcore. And I didn'tdie.
Harvey (41:13):
You didn't, you're still here. And I'm so glad you are.
Pen (41:16):
So am I! I'm into that.
And, you know, during a periodlike that, that's enough,
sometimes. That's - that's whatyou being okay can look like.
Harvey (41:31):
This is... I think, if I'm summing up my feelings-
Pen (41:34):
Please, yes.
Harvey (41:36):
This is actually reminding me of something.
Recovery, for me, is about hope,too. And I mentioned, I'll kind
of bring this back in by saying,do you remember that time -
gosh, it probably would havebeen my freshman year of college
- so your junior year, and therewas that rally on our campus for
(41:58):
trans rights.
Pen (41:59):
Yeah.
Harvey (42:00):
And there was this really emotional period where we
had just gotten done reading thenames of people who, uh, had
been murdered.
Pen (42:09):
Yes.
Harvey (42:10):
And following that, one of the individuals facilitating
this event played a song. And itwas "26" by Paramore. I still
remember that, really vividly. Iremember it was cold. It was, I
think, January or February. Soit's cold. And you and I are
(42:34):
standing out there with a bunchof other trans people and our
allies. And I'm on the verge oftears listening to the song,
holding your hand, kind ofpaying attention to the warmth.
And I listened to that song onrepeat when I got home. And it's
just - it stays in my head,"Hold on to hope if you got it,"
(42:58):
that sort of thing. And thatexperience stuck with me. And
when the going gets tough,that's actually one of those
things that I think back to.
That I think back to - that Ithink back to this rally that a
lot of people might haveforgotten about. And I think
back to "26" by Paramore. Andfor me, that's some of what
(43:22):
recovery is. It's holding on tohope. It's finding hope, you
know? Kind of going be-beyondthe, "if you got it," but making
it so you got it...
Pen (43:38):
Yeah.
Harvey (43:39):
...because I don't have a choice. If I want to recover,
if I want to keep going, I gotto hold on to hope. And the good
news is I actually - I have alot to live for at this point.
Pen (43:54):
That is good news.
Harvey (43:55):
Way too much to throw away.
Pen (43:59):
That's beautiful, Harvey.
Harvey (44:01):
Aw, shucks, thank you.
Pen (44:02):
Yeah.
Harvey (44:03):
I'm shocked I was able to be that coherent while
playing Tetris on my phone.
Pen (44:08):
Autism!
Harvey (44:10):
Something, something...
There's a word for thatm ut Ican't remember it. I forgor.
Pen (44:16):
You forgor.
Harvey (44:17):
I forgor. I don't rember.
Pen (44:18):
You don't rember.
Harvey (44:20):
But yeah, I think recovery for me is hope. It's
recognizing that I'm - that I'mnot done. I am far from done. I
might never be done. I'mprobably going to continue to
hurt and there are going to betimes where I'm doing really
well, and I'm going to fall backdown again. And I just have to
(44:40):
recognize that even if thingssuck - if they suck so bad,
which they do right now -there's still something.
Pen (44:50):
Yeah.
Harvey (44:50):
That there's a lot to keep pushing for.
Pen (44:53):
Yeah.
Harvey (44:55):
So I'm wondering if you have any final thoughts before
we really wrap up.
Pen (45:02):
I think, in an attempt to try and tie things together...
Harvey (45:07):
I feel like I was relevant!
Pen (45:09):
You were! You absolutely were. I'm saying that mine was
less...
Harvey (45:13):
Oh, hush.
Pen (45:14):
...like right on the dot.
You know me, Harvey, I'm likethis.
Harvey (45:17):
I'm pulling a gun. I'm pointing a gun at you, and I am
telling you-
Pen (45:21):
You're playing Tetris on your phone.
Harvey (45:22):
Shut up! I'm telling you to be nice to yourself. I'm
trying to sell the image. Nobodycan see us! God!
Pen (45:28):
They're playing Tetris on their phone. Well, actually,
kind of related to that,recovery, I think, especially in
different - I think there arestages to it.
Harvey (45:39):
Of course.
Pen (45:40):
Or, you know what? I think there's checkpoints in recovery.
Harvey (45:44):
Hey, I like that! I like checkpoints.
Pen (45:47):
Thank you. Because I think stages - it implies you're going
to stay within a certain range.
Harvey (45:54):
And you're just not.
Pen (45:55):
No. But like, I hit the recovery checkpoint of, I don't
want to die anymore. I hit therecovery checkpoint of, I am no
longer doing some of theseharmful things. I hit the
recovery checkpoint of learninghow to forgive myself, and allow
(46:16):
myself to just do things. And Ithink that's been one of the
most significant for me. Andthat's like, one of the very,
very big recovery checkpointsthat I hit, was forgiving myself
and allowing myself to beimperfect and mentally ill and
disabled. But not to, like, hatemyself for having executive
(46:36):
dysfunction.
Harvey (46:38):
You're meeting yourself where you're at.
Pen (46:40):
Yes! Which I think is very important, and a difficult thing
to do.
Harvey (46:44):
Especially in an inherently ableist society where
that exact thing is discouraged.
Pen (46:49):
Yes.
Harvey (46:50):
And bad. And you should just strive to be normal.
Pen (46:54):
And the kind of things that can help, or like, you know,
when you've reached certainpoints, then you're able to
engage with other things. WhatI'm trying to say is, when I was
self-harming multiple times aweek, I wouldn't have been able
to play the piano.
Harvey (47:13):
Right. And now you can, and it's not out of a sense of
obligation, it's for yourwell-being.
Pen (47:19):
Yes. And so sometimes, you can hit these points, and it's
like, okay, you have that now.
You - you have done that. Itdoesn't mean everything's going
to be easy. It doesn't mean Inever relapse, or I never deal
with other things. It means Ican give myself a bit more
slack, and that can free updoing other things like...
recovery, for me, has looked alot like accepting myself, and a
(47:42):
lot like finding meaning andfinding joy in things that I
couldn't before. Guess what,Harvey? And this will not make
sense to a lot of our listeners,I like scavenger hunts.
Harvey (47:59):
Oh, wow.
Pen (48:00):
And puzzles.
Harvey (48:01):
Yeah, that's... for those of you who lack the
context, that's a big deal.
Pen (48:05):
Yeah, those used to be extreme, extreme, major trauma
triggers for me. I can - I playthe piano, because I'm
experiencing intense, intenseemotions. I like doing puzzles.
Those are things that hurt me somuch as a kid. And if I hadn't
reached certain checkpoints, ifI hadn't accepted certain things
(48:26):
about myself, I couldn't beworking on my recovery with
these things that seem... likethey shouldn't be part of it. Or
like, this isn't how you makeyour mental health better! You
don't do a puzzle about that.
You don't play Homestuck piano.
Harvey (48:43):
[Laughing] You don't have to call yourself out like
that.
Pen (48:44):
Yes, I did. did. You don't have to do that. That's not how
you feel better. And it's like,actually, sometimes it is.
Harvey (48:52):
So what's your favorite Homestuck song to play on the
piano?
Pen (48:54):
Showtime's the easiest, because it's the one that's
actually made for piano.
Harvey (48:57):
That's a good choice.
Pen (48:58):
But if I fudge around and you know, adapt a lot of things,
Derse Dreamers is really - itcan be fun.
Harvey (49:06):
I respect that.
Pen (49:07):
I have to change it a lot.
I have to do that for a lot ofsongs. I have small hands.
That's bad for piano playing.
Harvey (49:12):
Unfortunate. You know, I think I'm - I think that's the
crux for me. It's not justfinding meaning, but finding
joy. You saying finding joyreally resonates with me.
Pen (49:23):
Finding joy, and... one of my favorite quotes of all time,
is you've got to choose joy. Howdo you - how do you find - and
I'm paraphrasing - how do you -how do you find joy? You choose
it. You choose to find joy inother people, and the things
(49:47):
that you do, because at the endof the day, that's all you've
got.
Harvey (49:52):
That's what the Wahoo! Moment is.
Pen (49:53):
Yeah. It's - you have to find it. You have to choose it.
Sometimes it doesn't look theway that you or other people
expect, but at the end of theday, that's what you got.
Harvey (50:08):
It's yours.
Pen (50:09):
It is!
Harvey (50:10):
Hold on to hope if you got it.
Pen (50:12):
Hold onto hope...
Harvey (50:14):
....if you got it.
Pen (50:17):
This is Pen-Harvey karaoke hour.
Harvey (50:20):
And the other part of that lyric is, don't let it go
for nobody.
Pen (50:23):
No, don't! Do things for yourself. Love y- even if you
can't love yourself yet, don't -don't begrudge yourself hope.
Harvey (50:39):
Yeah. I think that's a lovely note to end on. So, stick
around for just a few moremoments, and we'll tell you a
little bit more about how thispodcast is run. Good episode,
Pen.
Pen (50:50):
Yeah, good job Harvey! [Clapping]
Harvey (50:55):
Beyond introspection is an independently run podcast by
Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord.
Music by Girl Lloyd. You canfind us on Twitter and Instagram
at BYNDpodcast. Or you can emailus at beyonddot—that's D O T—
podcast@gmail.com. We publish onBuzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or
wherever you get your podcasts.
(51:15):
You can find the links to oursocial media and email in the
podcast description. Gotfeedback for us? Feel free to
reach out on social media or viaemail. We'd love to hear from
everyone. Take care ofyourselves.
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