June 15, 2024 • 51 mins
Cuckoldress Eve shares the story of how she evolved from a sheltered, vanilla life into a joyful and (sometimes stressful) discovery of her own sexuality.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Oh, he went off on a very jolly tangent of going crazy and
buying me lots of toys. So he's like, oh, dildo, I don't
know if I can do that. How big?
Is that? No, that's not.
Going to go. What?
Yeah, all of those, all of thoseideas.
(00:20):
And it's like, oh, actually, yeah, apparently I'm just asking
me. Hey everybody, I just wanted to
give you a quick notice. I am starting to offer a
one-on-one coaching session. It's called Ask Crystal.
(00:43):
It is coaching for individuals and couples as they explore
ethical non monogamy. Whatever your dynamic is.
I've been living in this dynamicfor 10 years and I've learned a
ton, and I hope to share some ofthat wisdom with you in the
hopes that it will help you. So you'll get the details in the
show notes and I hope to see youthere.
(01:04):
Welcome, everybody. Crystal Welch here, and I'm
super, super excited to announcea conversation that we're going
to have today with Cuckoldress Eve.
I met her husband a few weeks back and he's the gracious man
who referred my pod producer to me, so I'll be forever in his
(01:26):
debt. And now I get a chance to speak
with his lovely wife. So Eve, go ahead and say hello.
Hi there from not so sunny Queensland, Australia.
Yeah, Australia. See we can podcast all over the
world. It's amazing this technology.
Why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about your
(01:47):
background and how you met your,we call her husband Aussie, how
you met him and kind of how yourhow your dynamic has where it
started and how it's evolved. Right, Sure.
Well, we would have been 16 in year 11 in high school and I was
(02:14):
with my ex-boyfriend at that point for already three years.
So I've actually been single forthree days since I've been 13,
so. Wow, so that's a.
Quite a different background too.
It's a record. Yeah.
On in the lifestyle, yeah. And he worked his charm on me
(02:37):
for another four years after that.
I'm like dude, not interested dude, go away, go away.
Yeah, so finally left my ex for him and did the monkey swapping
from 1 branch to another when wewere 20.
He actually even came to all my hockey matches and all my team.
(02:58):
My team members just thought that he was my boyfriend.
I'm like, no, he's just some dude that keeps following me.
I can't. Get rid of this.
So, yeah, persistence counts. Definitely.
Yeah. So we've been together for a
really long time. That's twenty.
Oh, not counting properly, 23 years.
(03:18):
Something like that now. Wow.
He waited eight years before marrying me, proposing like, I
suppose it's OK to get married at 28.
Like he wanted to make sure thatI was the one.
Like we were already living together at my parents' house by
that point, big house. So we had our own area for five
years before that. It's like, OK, we should
(03:40):
probably do our own thing now. Fast forward a bunch of years,
kids, what eight years after that, So two crazy boys and all
of the crazy life through that our into the lifestyle was only
coming up three years ago now where we were camping in in the
(04:03):
desert for two weeks with his parents all in tents.
And he came to me after he puts it as the desert epiphany that
he had. So I can't remember exactly how
he's explained it in his podcast, but basically he
realized that he hadn't masturbated in in two weeks and
(04:23):
then he just suddenly was all full of love for me.
Like what are you talking about?And how does that work?
How does that work? And so rewinding a little bit
back before that, like I grew up, our family just didn't talk
about sex. It wasn't something that was
even discussed technically. My parents said no boyfriends
(04:45):
until you finish studying. So meanwhile, you know at 38 I'm
already sneaking in their backs.It was like the fear of getting
present present pregnant was just drilled into me hardcore at
that point. So like we weren't having PIV
sex at that that age even ever with my first boyfriend pretty
(05:08):
much would consider myself very vanilla at that point.
Vanilla naive like not even interested.
Never watched porn anything likethat.
So for Ozzie then to tell me that he hadn't jerked off for
two weeks was just you do what was it just a, a, a mind to
(05:31):
begin with? Was it?
Was it that you that you had noticed that you also noticed
that he hadn't been masturbating, or he actually
brought it to your attention andyou weren't even aware?
I didn't even know he was doing that.
Ah, like like why do you even need to?
I I didn't understand what why like is that normal?
(05:57):
Like I don't have a group of girlfriends that we even talk
about sex or or anything like that.
Right. And certainly not, and certainly
not about that topic. Probably.
No, no, gosh, we talk about how horrible the kids are being or,
or whatever that is. So I really don't have any
context to to relate that to. And so when he came to me and
(06:19):
said that like. I I.
Haven't been treating you very well and I haven't been looking
after your needs. What needs?
Yeah, but at that point we're ina place of we'd just travelled
(06:39):
for a long time and and we're living at his parents place,
having moved house with the kidsand he'd be spending every night
watching TV with his parents andI'd be just like, well, I don't
want to watch the same TV show as you guys.
I'm just going to sit in the bedroom and do my own lonely
thing after putting the kids to to bed.
So I was like lonely. This is there was no intimacy.
(07:02):
Like what intimacy would you have in your parents house kind
of thing? But not even that, just
companionship like you were saying before.
So I was in this place of like, yeah, OK, well that that's all
cool. So what, what, what do you want
to do about that? So we were talking and and
talking, and he came up across this website, cuckin, I think it
(07:25):
was. And he's like, oh, well, this is
interesting. So apparently he didn't know
what cuckolding was before that.It's like, ah, so I'd like to
consider myself reasonably open minded.
I'm up for any sort of discussion or ideas of, of
things, you know, as long as it's not deadly terribly
(07:46):
dangerous and like, oh, that sounds interesting.
And I haven't had many opportunities to play with
anybody else, say. So initially, it sounds like
initially you were intrigued by the idea.
I mean, it's curious. It's curious.
Yeah. So like.
(08:07):
OK, but that's on board. A a lot of the things I came
across on that website was, Oh my God, what is he Like
Literally I was that naive that when they said clean up, I
thought he was like taking the bedsheets off the bed.
Yeah, it's a long learning curve.
What's that exciting? There's gotta be so many people
(08:29):
in this world who have just no idea about what's available out
there and happy, or think they're happy in their own
little bubble until they're going.
Something's missing here. Something's missing, Yeah.
Something's missing and it's notonly, well, you just think, Oh
yeah, we've been together 15 years at this point, of course,
(08:51):
we've got a nothing to talk about anymore.
And so that was the other thing.It was like we didn't really
have that many hobbies together.So they're like, oh, let's do
something together. It'll give us something to talk
about, something to do on the weekends.
Like, yes, we'll go. Clearly I've never dated getting
onto the dating app. Like what?
He went and set us up a profile before telling me.
(09:13):
He's like, oh, I'm like, dude, what are you doing?
And of course, the message is yeah, yeah.
It's like, give me little bits. So it was just big information
drop, mind blown. Big information drop, mind
blown. Let me just sit and process this
for a second. I have no idea how to even
(09:36):
respond to that. And I'm the type of person who
like I'm slow to process and andgather my thoughts and go away
and think about it. But that on the outside I
realised just looks like I've just blanked off and walked away
kind of thing or or cracked it because I just don't know what
to say at that point. And So what was what was going
(09:58):
on for you inside? Were you were you you were still
curious, you were horrified. You were, as you're processing a
dating site in like this online mail smorgasbord of people to
Yeah, I mean, what was it like to drop into that and what was
going through your mind? Well, horrified to begin with,
(10:21):
like a finding out that he's masturbating all the time and
like three or four times a week.Like who are you?
I don't even know who you are anymore.
And you know, this is after so long that we've been together
and like not even knowing that he's like, he's like, I've
always been a sexual person. It's like.
When? Was that like you and where was
(10:44):
showing? Me where was.
I And where was I? I'm like, I was right here.
Like, why didn't you do anything?
Oh. My goodness.
Didn't want to embarrass you or like or or whatever.
Like thank you for check me. I was like.
So this is this is a. This is an important and
interesting point of how just even considering the dynamic can
(11:06):
cause a relationship. It can force a relationship to
grow because it it forces conversations that you have to
have in order to move forward together.
So it's very, very interesting. Yeah, yeah.
So I guess researching all of this stuff and I was the one
that came across Venus's podcast1st and got intrigued to get all
(11:30):
of the early episodes, which sheactually describes how things
work and terminology and where this goes and that goes
whatever. So, so that was really
informative. And I guess I don't, I don't
have time to scroll through blogs or, or research that kind
of thing between like I think our kids were two and four by
(11:53):
that stage. Not really.
Even so, I'm I'm still in the thick of.
Yeah, like speeding them basically.
Small kids, yeah. So I don't have a lot of time to
dedicate to to that, let alone even thinking about sex.
It's just not even on the radar right To begin with Which?
Is perfectly normal. Yeah, and like, oh, when do you,
(12:17):
when do you think about sex? When are you horny?
It's like, dude, I'm, I'm thinking about what we can make
to get the kids to actually eat before they die of malnutrition
or something like that. Like I've got bigger fish to fry
and, and holding up a job 'causeI'm so tired.
(12:37):
Yeah. So that's real life and juggling
this and then. OK, so yeah, just mind blowing
every time a new piece of information's revealed and, and
just getting more and more overwhelmed with it all, I
suppose. But yeah, we got onto the apps
and I it's, it's a reflection now that I've had time to, to go
(13:03):
back and, and think about what happened.
But I just didn't realize that people would want to talk to me
or like, you know, over 40 kind of thing.
And. And you're just drop dead
gorgeous and, and, and why wouldn't they?
But you know. And and married and this is like
(13:24):
a weird situation. It's weird, yeah.
Never thought about dating as a married person.
I mean, it's, it's all kind of bombards, the sensibilities, and
then you have to make sense of it however you do.
Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, the messages
flood in and we're like, Oh well, a I'm polite and try to
(13:44):
respond to everyone and be nice and and courteous and all that
sort of stuff. I'm like, I can't keep up with
this. And like, and then the messages
are going all through the day. Like I don't have the time for
this. I'm getting more and more
overwhelmed with on the and I take pics like what is that and
why are they opening with that? Right, right.
(14:05):
Why would you send me that? Why?
Why? I don't understand.
It's not the most important thing I want to know about you.
No, yeah. And then the really awkward
conversations and and folks thatjust want to start sexting and
asking for photos, like I don't know how to respond to this.
I don't have the words. I certainly really don't want to
(14:26):
send you all my photos. I don't even know who you are.
And then one of the first peoplein the first week that messaged
me was Mr. T, and anyone who's following me on Twitter has
probably found out that he is the boyfriend.
So we now Fast forward quite a way later.
He is the boyfriend that you hear about, and we're working
(14:52):
that Poly relationship and navigating all of that.
But he was almost a light beacon.
Yeah. Was he your first person that
like you connected with and said, this is a person I think
I'd like to get to know or did you have other people like that
and then you found him. How did that?
How did all that work? He was literally the second
(15:17):
person we met. We, we just had like 2 windows
of opportunity to two sequentialdays to, to meet up with
someone. We had a, a drink with one bloke
and he, he was cool. And then we had another catch up
lunch with Mr. T and it's like, oh, both, both of them are quite
nice. Yes, let's just, you know, have
another date and see where they go.
(15:40):
But Mr. T and I just kept talking chatting after that.
It was like daily chats, like, oh that's nice, he's lovely and
just building on that. Yeah, yeah.
Like any other normal relationship.
How was your conversation or your communication with Ozzie as
you were finding that you reallylike this guy and you might want
(16:01):
to, you know, you might want to have something with him.
How? How is it working out between
you and Ozzie? Well this is 2 weeks in so at
this point after the idea of thedating other books.
So Ozzy and I have a couples account on a hookup app and so
(16:25):
got the same login. He can see all the messages, all
the likes and whatever. It's like, look at this one.
Look at this one. Look at this one.
And I didn't understand at the moment, but even that thought at
the time was feeling wrong. Like why are you picking blokes?
For me that's so gross. And it just did not sit well.
Yeah. Did you find that sort of, I
(16:46):
mean, because it's really out ofthe out of the 9 dots of what
marital relationships are supposed to be like.
Like, why would my husband be excited for me to meet other
men? Yeah, it that's really outside
the norm. Very weird feeling weird didn't
sit right and then him like evenflicking through and and sending
(17:09):
me. It was actually Ozzie who found
Mr. T actually and and and forwarded me his profile and I'm
like don't know, but started talking to him anyway.
Yeah and we clicked from like the first couple of messages.
Great. So that was great.
(17:30):
But like moving forward after Aussies sending me or or or
pointing out Oh yeah, this person looks cool.
This person. I didn't understand even then
why it felt ick. I, I couldn't process why it was
not weird, but it was almost like, and I think I did say this
(17:51):
to him once I found the words and it wasn't until I even was
listening to the podcasts all over the place, joined Twitter
eventually was trying to educatemyself about the whole
lifestyles things that I learnt words like I didn't even know
what boundaries were, for example, and why all of a sudden
(18:14):
something happened and I felt upset about it.
And it wasn't until months and months later that I found out,
Oh, that was a. Boundary I was.
Uncomfortable with? Yeah, a boundary.
And, and just learning what thatmeans, you're right, yes.
So all of this building up, building up, building up to a
point of overwhelm essentially. So describe if if you can
(18:38):
describe that overwhelm a littlebit.
So what I'm hearing, it might have been a combination of being
attracted to a man who wasn't your husband, your husband
encouraging that you not knowingwhat to make of it, not knowing
what maybe maybe not knowing whether you even wanted to or
not. You kind of did, you kind of
didn't. But just not finding a container
(19:00):
that all of that would fit in leads to overwhelm.
I think it can. And then and then still feeling
guilty about wanting to do that,but you've got your husband
there and you know, now all of this that I know societal
programming of monogamy and all of this background and like even
feeling guilty on the date when my husband's still there sitting
(19:21):
next to me going, come on, come on, have a have a chat chat.
I'm like, Are you sure? Like surely what's the hidden
catch here? And like all of this is
processing and then like the thoughts are going through my
mind, but I haven't really process what the thoughts are or
understand what they are. They're kind of like 1/2 thought
(19:44):
or an idea. But it's not until like Venus
puts it in words where you go. That's what it is.
And, and it's feeling like you're actually, I use the word
manipulated because that's what my psychologist clarified it as.
You're being manipulated into his fantasy.
(20:05):
And it's like, oh, but I'm just,I just wanna him.
I just wanna make him happy. And and I realized now again,
looking back on it, like the first six to eight months was
just me doing what I normally doand just wanting to make
everyone happy, but not putting myself first.
Or understanding my own needs, 'cause I don't even know what my
(20:27):
needs are at this point. I don't know what I want.
I just was out for some adventure and and meeting new
people 'cause that's fun. And I'm in my own little
isolated baby world bubble and just getting outside of the
house is exciting. Yeah.
Yeah. So that's all adding up to the
overwhelm and the messages that are constantly pinging.
(20:49):
I really should have turned off notifications a lot earlier,
should have turned off like active status on the thing
because I realized for me just like 5 messages in a week is way
too much. Try to continue those
conversations on to see what's. Going on well, especially if
you're the kind of person that feels, you know, you're just so
nice and you're so polite to everyone.
(21:10):
You feel like you you owe everybody a response if they've
pinged you and it can be very overwhelming.
Yeah, and especially when they they say something that feels
really awkward and it's like, I don't know how to respond to
that. Aussie, what do I say to this?
(21:31):
And, and then it's like, OK, well, I need to work on
something. And then it's just, I, I might
sit on it for a few hours and try to work out what to say.
And it's just, I'm at work and it's eating at me.
All I can think about is how to respond to this message.
And I'm like, I didn't even knowat that point.
If that's not anxiety, I don't know what it is.
And I'm like, OK, so this is me like so much learning in
(21:51):
internal learning and growth that's happened in the last few
years. It's been an epic journey of all
sorts. And you, you know, in spite of
the fact that I've talked about that endlessly, you, you can't
even understand the scope of howdeep that can go working through
this dynamic because it's a level of intimacy and a level of
(22:14):
communication that in my, you know, and this is just my
opinion. I don't think long term vanilla
monogamous relationships, very few of them will reach those
levels because this forces you to have uncomfortable
conversations and talk about things that normal monogamous
(22:35):
couples never would. And every time you open one of
those doors, you've reached another level of intimacy.
And it makes you vulnerable and it can make you scared and it
can make you exhilarated and it can, it can do all of that
stuff. But if you stick with it, you
get all the goodies at the end. I mean, that's.
(22:55):
That's right. The hard part is because you
don't coming from to it from such a position where you know.
Nothing about the. Lifestyle, having the vocabulary
to explain what you're feeling and circling back to the ichabat
(23:16):
Aussie sending me potential options.
Feeling IK was it actually feelslike you're pimping me out.
I was like are. Are you getting money out of
this from these blokes? Like.
This feels so ingrainedly bad right now.
(23:40):
And until I was able to actuallywork out that feeling and
explain that to him, he's like, oh, and then he stopped doing
that, which was great. Brave of you.
Brave of you to be vulnerable enough to say that.
Yeah, but he was so excited at the that point and it was like a
burst is bubble, Yeah. You don't want to disappoint
(24:03):
him. It's like, yeah.
Where do I start and where do you you know and?
He was just a sad puppy after that until he found something
else to to do, I guess. Yeah.
So there's all these bits that we like even.
OK, so you've got the male ego and you've you've you've had a
marriage of 15 years. I don't know how many years it
(24:26):
was at that point. And it's like you've always, for
the entire process of the marriage, never wanted to do
anything that would hurt his ego.
Yes, of course. Or hurt him in any other way,
you know. In any other way?
Exactly. If if anything, your job is to
fluff up as ego, right? As well as cook and clean and do
everything else. Exactly.
(24:47):
And like to to even put that idea in a box and just say no.
Actually, my feelings are this. And despite not really wanting
to offend you, I feel this was really hard.
Yeah, I'm sure. It was yeah, because you don't
(25:09):
know what his reaction is gonna be.
And then and then the whole thing could just blow up.
And so I think that, you know, so good on you for being brave,
but it kicks you up to another level of intimacy because that's
probably something he needed to hear how you were perceiving,
how you were perceiving that process.
So that's one example that I canthink of that that just happened
(25:34):
every other week kind of thing. There was something else that
was, I remember thinking or reading somewhere we, we do
something and it's like, what's it saying?
2 steps forward, three steps back kind of thing.
And it's like, yes. That is exactly.
What it is like we'd do something exciting that wouldn't
feel right or that wouldn't be good, or we'd have a date and
(25:56):
something was said and then we're like angry at each other
and then we'd start again kind of thing.
So that was just going on and onfor like six months.
It's amazing. Yeah.
It's amazing to me that you thatyou stuck with this when you
(26:16):
were so uncomfortable and that and you're in a learning curve
of a whole new thing that you'd never considered.
And it's amazing to me. So there was something in you
that caused you to want to stickwith it.
There had to be something in there that was also intriguing
to you. Aside from wanting to please him
and make him happy, there had tobe something in you.
(26:37):
Was also saying I'm still curious about this.
I'm still wondering where where this could possibly go.
Was that going on for you? Yeah, like he went off on a very
jolly tangent of going crazy andbuying me lots of toys.
So it's like, oh, dildo, I don'tknow if I can do that.
(27:03):
No, that's not. Going to go.
What? Yeah, all of those, all of those
ideas. And it's like, oh, actually,
yeah, apparently I'm a size queen.
Yeah. So there were like all of these
learnings of my own pleasant desires kind of thing.
And yeah, we've played with toysin the past, but they were just
(27:26):
never that interesting or like we had really cheap crappy toys
that yeah, he was, he was on a mission to find some good ones.
So blessed to find something that one.
So that was great. But yeah, I'm also the
personality that doesn't give up.
I'm, I'm an A type personality. I've got to do everything
perfect. I've, I don't know, I just have
(27:48):
to say something. One of those.
Perfectionists. Yeah, if I start something, I've
got to do it right and also and see it through.
Learning that. Well, I was also in in Venus's
chat group and then hearing other girls stories was there is
no right. There's no right way of doing
things. It's your own journey.
It's your own, however you make it feel right for you.
(28:12):
And I was like, but I don't knowwhat's on the menu, what I've
got to choose from, and I wish there was a menu that would make
it really easy. Yeah, and that's amazing.
I think you're the first person that I've talked to that came
from such a pure vanilla background and then jumped both
feet into this thing that's, youknow, because I think a lot of
(28:36):
the trajectory for a lot of people that we know, maybe they
started out swinging or just trying, you know, dancing with
other people at a club and then maybe it went from there to
there and then, you know, but cuckolding is.
Pillow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Pillowed way out here in the lunatic fringe.
And you're, you know, that's a big journey for somebody who
(28:59):
hasn't really been exposed or considered any of that stuff.
So that's amazing. That's amazing that that you'd
you've done as well as you have.Well, moving on to that, as it
culminated a few months later inme having complete panic attack,
nervous breakdown and hospitalized.
Yeah, Yeah. So it just got to the point
(29:20):
where I didn't even know what anxiety was and dealing with
that, and I couldn't work out why my brain was shutting down
and I couldn't make sentences anymore and I wasn't functioning
at work. And I'm still getting all these
messages and still overwhelmed at how to answer them.
(29:42):
And in normal life, there's birthday kids, birthday parties
going on and a perfectionist maze doing a million hours just
trying to do create decorations for them to have the perfect
birthday party kind of thing anda whole host of things.
So, you know, I was probably epically tired and just needed a
(30:05):
break from exit stage or right of life.
And yeah, woke up in the middle of the night and just couldn't
breathe and just went into a full body cramp and just
shaking. And yeah, I had to call the
ambulances in. Oh my God.
So and so. What what was Oz?
How did Ozzy make sense of this?Or he, I'm sure he didn't know
(30:26):
what was going on either. He he could see some changes in
you, but not not knowing what the origin was at all.
Yeah, yeah. Well, we're just thinking, oh,
you're just going into a tired phase.
So I'll be like collapsed out onthe couch just by end of work
and just like, oh, can't function today.
You, you make dinner. After this panic attack.
(30:46):
I, I was in bed for three weeks.I could not move.
And yeah, so just trying to build up life.
So that was an instant stop to any lifestyle stuff, of course.
But on the other side, I had Mr.T still messaging me.
So we're quite close friends at this point, played a lot
together. And all the time not being able
(31:07):
to find anyone else who a was aslovely as him or as good as him,
as a playmate as well. So yes, he set the bar quite
high. On top of that, all of the
flakes, all of the ones who justwere picture collectors or just
trying to get their rocks off byhaving saucy conversations or.
All the people that Venus talkedabout in her in her her podcast.
(31:31):
All those, you know, that's overwhelming as it is.
So it's like, OK, I'm well and truly done with messaging in it
at the moment. Apps off.
Yeah. So I was off work for quite a
few months even just couldn't leave the house.
That's crazy. Yeah.
So mental health. Yeah.
(31:53):
Ended up going to health for sure.
Psychologist then for, you know,weekly sessions there and, and a
lot of those chats with her, like I, I thought it was just
all of my overwhelm of regular life.
Like I didn't really want to talk to her about lifestyle
stuff, but she dragged it out ofme and, and, and I explained how
we had Mr. T going on on the side of the marriage just like,
(32:15):
and she wasn't, she wasn't judgy.
She's like, you know, adults do anything they want behind closed
doors. It's between them.
It's consensual. It's not my problem, not my
business. You do it, which is great.
But again, having someone to listen listen to, because Ozzy
and I weren't able to talk to each other on that same sort of
level at this point. Was she helping you understand
(32:39):
some of your own anxiety and your own wants and and how you
got to that place of breakdown? Yeah, yeah.
And a lot of that would be what was one of the mantras Your your
your feelings are not your thoughts or something along
those lines. Was basically understanding that
even the thought of non monogamybeing a clash of your inner
(33:07):
thoughts is a is how you've beenbrought up.
And I'm like, oh sure, yeah. So it's even if it's not front
of mind at that point, it's everything that you've ever
known subconsciously putting these messages in your head to,
to, to clash with what you're wanting to do.
And then it's still feeling wrong for that stage.
(33:28):
Right. Right.
Yeah. So it's.
Like that's that, that's that thousands of years of cultural
programming thing. You know that you're supposed
to, you're supposed to live lifejust this way.
And if you veer off to the side then it you don't have you don't
know what to attach. To Yeah, precisely.
And And so you just think, oh, Iwasn't even thinking about that,
but that's causing anxiety, which causes this, which causes
(33:49):
this. And then, oh, you're on the
floor. That's great.
Yeah. So that was a lot of learnings
there and a lot of processing before that went on.
So all the lifestyle was on pause for about 6 months.
Stuff other than seeing Mr. T aswe probably do.
So that, that that leaves me with this question.
(34:11):
So he he obviously was a good friend in support through that
at A at a time when maybe your communication with Ozzie wasn't
add its optimum. So how did you knit all of that
back together? Finally getting more healed,
(34:31):
more so like it was a good six months before I could even have
my regular work hours back again.
Sort of built up to that from a fatigue side.
Yeah. Lots of talking between Mr. T
and him. And then like we still had our
own dates together, all three ofus, and just talking stuff out
(34:51):
in general. And it wasn't until I had enough
energy to say, OK, I think I'm ready to turn the back the apps
back on and see if I can see if I can find another bull that is
interesting enough to me anyway,'cause apparently I'm rather
picky. And I'm like, I'm happy to be
picky. And I've also discovered that,
(35:12):
you know, if you want a, a connection through like
conversation or some sort of shared interests or there's a
word for that, yes, like, oh, don't make me feel rubbish now
if I get it wrong, but like Sapio, is it sapiosexual that?
One yeah, so well, that's that'sme too.
(35:34):
It's it's where you're, you needto have a, a mental intellectual
connection. It's, it's tied to your libido.
Like you don't really turn on properly if you don't have that.
Exactly. And not even I'm I'm exactly the
same way. Yeah, yeah.
So even saying. So instead of judging yourself,
Eve, then you find, OK, so I'm sort of hardwired this way and
(35:57):
it's OK that I like smart men that will talk to me.
Yeah, and and like, not even realizing as I'm, you know,
swiping through photos, like finding nobody attractive.
It's like probably because I actually have to chat to them
first. I'm like OK.
Right top hint for for the guys out there that bump into a CPO
(36:18):
sexual woman, you have to enter through her mind.
But she might not even know thatshe is at that point.
Right, she might not even know but so try that instead of
sending penis pictures and stufflike that.
It might. It might work better.
For you exactly. Yeah.
So it wasn't until I was feeling, you know, healthy
(36:40):
enough to be able to get out there again that we started back
on the apps. And I can't remember if I
started the Tinder, not Tinder Twitter account before that, but
just I wanted to kind of not have an outlet.
Ozzie already had that as an outlet.
And I just wanted to find other girls that were on the same path
(37:02):
as me. But there doesn't seem to be any
on Tinder. All it is is porn and and look
at my only fans. I'm like, I don't want to say
all that yet the. Algorithm takes there is there
is a lot of you have to do a lotof deleting and blocking or
muting accounts to just have thepeople that you want to talk.
To yeah, yeah. So it's a lot of work.
Yeah, that's right. But annoyingly, it's still, if
(37:25):
you want to actually learn more,it's like, oh, get on the Mon
app. It's like, I don't have time to
get on the Mon app and I'm in the wrong time zone anyway, so
that won't work. You don't have time to read
blogs. Yeah, so it is a hard one, but
then you you find communities like the Slut Sisters or Venus's
Connection of Girls or now Cocktails has has their group as
(37:46):
well. So that's inspiring because
those are the real people who aren't just interested in
flogging their, you know, paid subscription services and
actually have real helpful supporting things to say.
Yeah, They can share their own story that might help you in
your journey, which is. Yeah, that's.
(38:07):
Yeah, Yeah, that's certainly true.
Yeah. Well, that is that is an
inspiring story. So are are what what is your
status today? You're still with Mr. T?
Still with Mr. T, still looking for other interesting people to
play with and still getting flaked.
(38:28):
Got flaked again last week, like, oh man, just to be able to
get out of the house as a parentto line up a babysitter to make
sure that everyone is healthy, like you don't have to stay home
because the kids sick or or whatever is so much of A
logistical nightmare to then go on flake.
(38:52):
It's like just off. Alright, yeah, I suspect that
this person who I've already chatted to for off and on for a
couple of years, we suspect he was probably married and just
like just wanted to get his rocks off that way and cheating.
I don't know he knows, but. See, that's so you just gave
(39:13):
complete legitimacy, as did I toVenus's discussion about about
that behavior and behavior of people that you've invested time
in getting to know and having conversations with.
And they end up just flaking at the end.
It's it's infuriating. It's just infuriating.
It's it's almost like you literally need to if there's a
(39:36):
on on your dating app, if there's a phone function or a
video call function, do that before you book a hotel room.
Yes, for sure. Oh man.
And then even. Yeah, that's one of my policies.
Yeah. Yeah, that's one of my policies
too. I I don't meet anybody without
video chatting so we can see each other.
We, you know, I I just won't. I won't do it.
(39:57):
Yeah, we've been burned too manytimes as well.
Yeah, but even like this was just a drink date.
Any flakes? Right, that's.
Right. I've even met him before in all
places in the sporting goods section of A department store,
which that was a hilarious story, but that was like, we
were crossing paths and like, OK, so we'll, we can meet for 15
(40:20):
minutes as we just at least knowthat you're human and 'cause you
know, there's the bots out thereas well.
Not really the scammers. Yeah.
Yeah. Just to see what each other
looks like. So I know he's a real person,
just don't know if he's legitimately crazy.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
(40:40):
So. Oh my.
Goodness, much of that. Unfortunately, that comes with
the territory and I think over time you develop sort of a thick
skin for it. And I wish we didn't have to.
But my understanding is for my single friends that single
dating isn't any different. You know, it is, they go through
the same things. It's it's really very much the
(41:00):
same process. But there has to be an, an extra
level of honesty, I think, in this because you are sort of
inviting somebody into a marriage and, you know, you
wanna make sure that everybody'son the same page.
Yeah, yeah. And you don't get into a mess.
Even hearing what each couple wants of their bull is so
(41:23):
different out there. But everything is a spectrum.
It's it's fascinating. It is and it is.
Yeah. Just hearing, even hearing these
stories is are different too. Like how they've been treated.
Yeah, exactly. I was just, I have had
conversations with bulls that say, you know, it's not much
different on the bull side. You know, there's a lot of
(41:44):
couples that have treated them very poorly.
And so I don't know, maybe that just comes with lifestyle.
But my hope is that people find the joy that's possible there.
You find a deeper connection with your partner.
We we've kind of been on that spectrum where we started where
we wanted no emotional connection with a bull and then
(42:09):
we fell in love with one at one point and it changed everything,
you know, So it changed, it changed what I want permanently.
So now I don't want to settle for less than having a real
connection and real feelings and, and bitchered.
My other half is good with that.He he wants that too.
(42:31):
You know it just makes it betterfor everybody if you can and
that and certainly not all cuckold couples want that or
invite that yeah, You know, we we tripped into ours.
But if you can find it, you know, our philosophy is, you
know, this is more love for creates more love for everybody.
Yeah yeah, definitely. And and and we're and we're good
(42:52):
with that. So I if you could give one of
your juiciest pieces of advice to the women of the world that
may have a husband that perhaps has approached her with this
discussion and perhaps had some of the anxiety that you went
(43:13):
through, how would you advise her?
Definitely educate yourself, look up all of the different
helpful sites that you can, if you can get on the Mon apps,
even even just regular dating advice websites and apps.
(43:38):
And also things learning even things like attachment theory
and how that relates to how you interact with your partner or
the potential bulls you're trying to interact with makes a
massive difference. And if you're starting out from
a, a place where I had, it's like, OK, you just take baby
(44:01):
steps. Like I went and took the big
dive diving board and it didn't land so well and which is so
strange because I do everything else in life with like
meticulous planning and organising and and what's the
end? What's the end plan, strategy
(44:23):
and all of that. And this is just like, I don't
even know why, but this song, I'm just going to sail the
season, see where it takes me. And that's been driving Aussie
insane. It's like you need to know where
we're going with this. Like, what's your plan?
But also one other point to the anxiety point and being able
able to communicate as a couple was Ozzy was not feeling like he
(44:47):
was getting what he wanted out of aspects of it.
So after, after a date, he'd be upset.
And it took me quite a few timesto recognize the pattern where
like, we didn't know what the word was, but it was Cukangst or
what is known as cukangst. It's like for two days, he'd be
irritable or whatever and he'd say something that would just
(45:09):
burst my bubble and all of the excitement would drop and I'd
feel like shit and I'd feel remorseful.
I'd feel like, well, if you feelthat bad, what's the whole point
of this? You're making me feel bad and
guilty about it. I like, I'm just gonna give up
if you feel this way. And every time you make me feel
shit about what I just did, which, if I remind you, was your
(45:29):
idea to begin with, begin with, back off.
Well, I didn't even say back offbecause I'm too polite.
But on the third day, he'd come crawling back and say, oh, I'm
so sorry. I didn't mean that all.
And I'm all good now. I mean, I'm not really all good,
(45:50):
but I've come and I've thought about it a bit more, but I feel
better now. And it's like, and that is the
angst rising and falling, the drop.
And I'm like, oh man. But again, I didn't learn about
that until I heard Venus pointedout I.
Was like, oh. Jeez, yeah.
And he didn't know to explain what his wants were either.
(46:11):
So until he was able to like, I didn't know about, you know,
the, the, the humiliation. So I was like, I don't want to
tease you about your Dick size. God, that's like the worst thing
you can possibly say to your husband or partner.
And that's, that is the common interpretation of that.
(46:32):
But if you, you know, for those who practice that in a healthy
way, I mean, Bitchard, Bitchard is into that.
And what we found is that it, weapproach it in a playful manner.
It's not mean spirited, it's playful, but it releases him.
It has totally eroticized his sexual shame.
(46:53):
And that is so freeing in his mind because he, he's not a he,
he doesn't have any of the cock's shame anymore.
You know, we just make fun of itand have fun with it and laugh
about it and it's gone. And that is huge personal
growth. And it really was a pathway for
him to release his sexual shame,which many people have a lot of
(47:17):
that. So if you can see it in that way
and if you can use it in that way, if if, if your husband
would express that to you. And.
And most of the time, I think they don't even know what's
intriguing or interesting about that.
Yeah. They just know that they kind of
like to experience it. Yeah.
And but that would be my advice on that one, is approach it in a
(47:41):
playful way. But there is a way to eroticize
sexual shame. And that is a gift you can give
your husband that will pay dividends forever.
Yeah. Because you're you.
You're holding the key to their freedom in their mind.
OK, say what you did there. Just just little words like that
gets them excited or him excitedand but you don't know that.
(48:04):
So it is educating yourself withthe tools and finding out what
it is. So like the sex and psychology
podcast really drills into that and trying to it took me so long
and I'm still learning to wrap my head around.
So this is the tip for the ladies.
Try to understand what actually motivates your partner into
(48:27):
wanting this. Like what is it that they find
attractive about it? And in my case, he just wants to
see me happy and and laughing and be able to share something
exciting together. Like it's not, it's not even
about the sex. It's about seeing me smile and
light up and seeing a text message come through a lot of
(48:50):
the time. So it's the whole thing.
It's not getting railed by this big black ball.
If that's what you're into it it.
It's the compersion, the you know, when you're happy because
your partner's happy, that compersion, that compersion
piece. But and also just asking your
(49:11):
partner, as you suggested, asking your partner, what do
they want out of this or what? Why do they want this?
That's a question that forces them into themselves because
they have to find a way to answer that.
They have to really look inside themselves to figure out what,
well, what is it? What what is it?
Yeah, make them answer that for sure.
And just because it's hot isn't good enough of an answer.
(49:34):
Why is it hot? Right, right, right.
There's my nugget of wisdom. You can call it Eve's Nuggets of
Wisdom. Well, you have given us many,
many, many. I thank you so much for spending
some time. Your story is inspirational.
It's, it's touching. I'm so glad that you guys have
(49:55):
navigated your way to a place ofhappiness.
And I think being willing to Share your story about your
extreme anxiety and how you found a way to unravel that
might be very, very helpful to alot of other people.
So yeah, I personally thank you sincerely for being willing to
talk about that. You're very welcome, it's been a
(50:18):
pleasure. So hopefully we'll talk again.
I I've got 1000 other questions,but we're already in about an
hour in. So we'll save those for another
time and I'll write them down and put them in a little EVE
file and and maybe we'll have another chance to talk.
Yes. Sure.
Or maybe. Maybe with, maybe with you and
Ozzie together. So yeah, good.
Anyway, thank you so very much. And if you want people to reach
(50:42):
you on Twitter anywhere else, you can let my producer know and
he'll put it in the show notes. Do you do you want to give them
your Twitter handle or anything like that or is that annoying
to? You, well, they, I do have
turned off DMS, turned off on myTwitter.
But I guess if you respond to any of my other posts with a
(51:03):
question, I can see there. And if I can see that you're not
just wanting to send me horrendous stuff, I can I can
follow you so we can connect. Like an actual genuine question.
Yeah. So it's cuckolders Eve, right?
That's right, cuckolders under score.
Eve under score. Eve OK, there it is.
We'll make sure it's in the shownotes.
Thank you again, Eve. It's been just an absolute
(51:24):
pleasure to talk with you. Fantastic, hope that was helpful
for all you ladies out there andthe gents too.
Yeah, I hope it's helpful for everyone.
It's a real conversation by a real person, and that's where
you learn stuff. Yeah, that's right.
Keep you out of that anxiety. Yeah.
See you guys. Thank you.
Oh, he went off on a very jolly tangent of going crazy and
buying me lots of toys. So he's like, oh, dildo, I don't
know if I can do that. How big?
Is that? No, that's not.
Going to go. What?
Yeah, all of those, all of thoseideas.
(00:20):
And it's like, oh, actually, yeah, apparently I'm just asking
me. Hey everybody, I just wanted to
give you a quick notice. I am starting to offer a
one-on-one coaching session. It's called Ask Crystal.
(00:43):
It is coaching for individuals and couples as they explore
ethical non monogamy. Whatever your dynamic is.
I've been living in this dynamicfor 10 years and I've learned a
ton, and I hope to share some ofthat wisdom with you in the
hopes that it will help you. So you'll get the details in the
show notes and I hope to see youthere.
(01:04):
Welcome, everybody. Crystal Welch here, and I'm
super, super excited to announcea conversation that we're going
to have today with Cuckoldress Eve.
I met her husband a few weeks back and he's the gracious man
who referred my pod producer to me, so I'll be forever in his
(01:26):
debt. And now I get a chance to speak
with his lovely wife. So Eve, go ahead and say hello.
Hi there from not so sunny Queensland, Australia.
Yeah, Australia. See we can podcast all over the
world. It's amazing this technology.
Why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about your
(01:47):
background and how you met your,we call her husband Aussie, how
you met him and kind of how yourhow your dynamic has where it
started and how it's evolved. Right, Sure.
Well, we would have been 16 in year 11 in high school and I was
(02:14):
with my ex-boyfriend at that point for already three years.
So I've actually been single forthree days since I've been 13,
so. Wow, so that's a.
Quite a different background too.
It's a record. Yeah.
On in the lifestyle, yeah. And he worked his charm on me
(02:37):
for another four years after that.
I'm like dude, not interested dude, go away, go away.
Yeah, so finally left my ex for him and did the monkey swapping
from 1 branch to another when wewere 20.
He actually even came to all my hockey matches and all my team.
(02:58):
My team members just thought that he was my boyfriend.
I'm like, no, he's just some dude that keeps following me.
I can't. Get rid of this.
So, yeah, persistence counts. Definitely.
Yeah. So we've been together for a
really long time. That's twenty.
Oh, not counting properly, 23 years.
(03:18):
Something like that now. Wow.
He waited eight years before marrying me, proposing like, I
suppose it's OK to get married at 28.
Like he wanted to make sure thatI was the one.
Like we were already living together at my parents' house by
that point, big house. So we had our own area for five
years before that. It's like, OK, we should
(03:40):
probably do our own thing now. Fast forward a bunch of years,
kids, what eight years after that, So two crazy boys and all
of the crazy life through that our into the lifestyle was only
coming up three years ago now where we were camping in in the
(04:03):
desert for two weeks with his parents all in tents.
And he came to me after he puts it as the desert epiphany that
he had. So I can't remember exactly how
he's explained it in his podcast, but basically he
realized that he hadn't masturbated in in two weeks and
(04:23):
then he just suddenly was all full of love for me.
Like what are you talking about?And how does that work?
How does that work? And so rewinding a little bit
back before that, like I grew up, our family just didn't talk
about sex. It wasn't something that was
even discussed technically. My parents said no boyfriends
(04:45):
until you finish studying. So meanwhile, you know at 38 I'm
already sneaking in their backs.It was like the fear of getting
present present pregnant was just drilled into me hardcore at
that point. So like we weren't having PIV
sex at that that age even ever with my first boyfriend pretty
(05:08):
much would consider myself very vanilla at that point.
Vanilla naive like not even interested.
Never watched porn anything likethat.
So for Ozzie then to tell me that he hadn't jerked off for
two weeks was just you do what was it just a, a, a mind to
(05:31):
begin with? Was it?
Was it that you that you had noticed that you also noticed
that he hadn't been masturbating, or he actually
brought it to your attention andyou weren't even aware?
I didn't even know he was doing that.
Ah, like like why do you even need to?
I I didn't understand what why like is that normal?
(05:57):
Like I don't have a group of girlfriends that we even talk
about sex or or anything like that.
Right. And certainly not, and certainly
not about that topic. Probably.
No, no, gosh, we talk about how horrible the kids are being or,
or whatever that is. So I really don't have any
context to to relate that to. And so when he came to me and
(06:19):
said that like. I I.
Haven't been treating you very well and I haven't been looking
after your needs. What needs?
Yeah, but at that point we're ina place of we'd just travelled
(06:39):
for a long time and and we're living at his parents place,
having moved house with the kidsand he'd be spending every night
watching TV with his parents andI'd be just like, well, I don't
want to watch the same TV show as you guys.
I'm just going to sit in the bedroom and do my own lonely
thing after putting the kids to to bed.
So I was like lonely. This is there was no intimacy.
(07:02):
Like what intimacy would you have in your parents house kind
of thing? But not even that, just
companionship like you were saying before.
So I was in this place of like, yeah, OK, well that that's all
cool. So what, what, what do you want
to do about that? So we were talking and and
talking, and he came up across this website, cuckin, I think it
(07:25):
was. And he's like, oh, well, this is
interesting. So apparently he didn't know
what cuckolding was before that.It's like, ah, so I'd like to
consider myself reasonably open minded.
I'm up for any sort of discussion or ideas of, of
things, you know, as long as it's not deadly terribly
(07:46):
dangerous and like, oh, that sounds interesting.
And I haven't had many opportunities to play with
anybody else, say. So initially, it sounds like
initially you were intrigued by the idea.
I mean, it's curious. It's curious.
Yeah. So like.
(08:07):
OK, but that's on board. A a lot of the things I came
across on that website was, Oh my God, what is he Like
Literally I was that naive that when they said clean up, I
thought he was like taking the bedsheets off the bed.
Yeah, it's a long learning curve.
What's that exciting? There's gotta be so many people
(08:29):
in this world who have just no idea about what's available out
there and happy, or think they're happy in their own
little bubble until they're going.
Something's missing here. Something's missing, Yeah.
Something's missing and it's notonly, well, you just think, Oh
yeah, we've been together 15 years at this point, of course,
(08:51):
we've got a nothing to talk about anymore.
And so that was the other thing.It was like we didn't really
have that many hobbies together.So they're like, oh, let's do
something together. It'll give us something to talk
about, something to do on the weekends.
Like, yes, we'll go. Clearly I've never dated getting
onto the dating app. Like what?
He went and set us up a profile before telling me.
(09:13):
He's like, oh, I'm like, dude, what are you doing?
And of course, the message is yeah, yeah.
It's like, give me little bits. So it was just big information
drop, mind blown. Big information drop, mind
blown. Let me just sit and process this
for a second. I have no idea how to even
(09:36):
respond to that. And I'm the type of person who
like I'm slow to process and andgather my thoughts and go away
and think about it. But that on the outside I
realised just looks like I've just blanked off and walked away
kind of thing or or cracked it because I just don't know what
to say at that point. And So what was what was going
(09:58):
on for you inside? Were you were you you were still
curious, you were horrified. You were, as you're processing a
dating site in like this online mail smorgasbord of people to
Yeah, I mean, what was it like to drop into that and what was
going through your mind? Well, horrified to begin with,
(10:21):
like a finding out that he's masturbating all the time and
like three or four times a week.Like who are you?
I don't even know who you are anymore.
And you know, this is after so long that we've been together
and like not even knowing that he's like, he's like, I've
always been a sexual person. It's like.
When? Was that like you and where was
(10:44):
showing? Me where was.
I And where was I? I'm like, I was right here.
Like, why didn't you do anything?
Oh. My goodness.
Didn't want to embarrass you or like or or whatever.
Like thank you for check me. I was like.
So this is this is a. This is an important and
interesting point of how just even considering the dynamic can
(11:06):
cause a relationship. It can force a relationship to
grow because it it forces conversations that you have to
have in order to move forward together.
So it's very, very interesting. Yeah, yeah.
So I guess researching all of this stuff and I was the one
that came across Venus's podcast1st and got intrigued to get all
(11:30):
of the early episodes, which sheactually describes how things
work and terminology and where this goes and that goes
whatever. So, so that was really
informative. And I guess I don't, I don't
have time to scroll through blogs or, or research that kind
of thing between like I think our kids were two and four by
(11:53):
that stage. Not really.
Even so, I'm I'm still in the thick of.
Yeah, like speeding them basically.
Small kids, yeah. So I don't have a lot of time to
dedicate to to that, let alone even thinking about sex.
It's just not even on the radar right To begin with Which?
Is perfectly normal. Yeah, and like, oh, when do you,
(12:17):
when do you think about sex? When are you horny?
It's like, dude, I'm, I'm thinking about what we can make
to get the kids to actually eat before they die of malnutrition
or something like that. Like I've got bigger fish to fry
and, and holding up a job 'causeI'm so tired.
(12:37):
Yeah. So that's real life and juggling
this and then. OK, so yeah, just mind blowing
every time a new piece of information's revealed and, and
just getting more and more overwhelmed with it all, I
suppose. But yeah, we got onto the apps
and I it's, it's a reflection now that I've had time to, to go
(13:03):
back and, and think about what happened.
But I just didn't realize that people would want to talk to me
or like, you know, over 40 kind of thing.
And. And you're just drop dead
gorgeous and, and, and why wouldn't they?
But you know. And and married and this is like
(13:24):
a weird situation. It's weird, yeah.
Never thought about dating as a married person.
I mean, it's, it's all kind of bombards, the sensibilities, and
then you have to make sense of it however you do.
Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, the messages
flood in and we're like, Oh well, a I'm polite and try to
(13:44):
respond to everyone and be nice and and courteous and all that
sort of stuff. I'm like, I can't keep up with
this. And like, and then the messages
are going all through the day. Like I don't have the time for
this. I'm getting more and more
overwhelmed with on the and I take pics like what is that and
why are they opening with that? Right, right.
(14:05):
Why would you send me that? Why?
Why? I don't understand.
It's not the most important thing I want to know about you.
No, yeah. And then the really awkward
conversations and and folks thatjust want to start sexting and
asking for photos, like I don't know how to respond to this.
I don't have the words. I certainly really don't want to
(14:26):
send you all my photos. I don't even know who you are.
And then one of the first peoplein the first week that messaged
me was Mr. T, and anyone who's following me on Twitter has
probably found out that he is the boyfriend.
So we now Fast forward quite a way later.
He is the boyfriend that you hear about, and we're working
(14:52):
that Poly relationship and navigating all of that.
But he was almost a light beacon.
Yeah. Was he your first person that
like you connected with and said, this is a person I think
I'd like to get to know or did you have other people like that
and then you found him. How did that?
How did all that work? He was literally the second
(15:17):
person we met. We, we just had like 2 windows
of opportunity to two sequentialdays to, to meet up with
someone. We had a, a drink with one bloke
and he, he was cool. And then we had another catch up
lunch with Mr. T and it's like, oh, both, both of them are quite
nice. Yes, let's just, you know, have
another date and see where they go.
(15:40):
But Mr. T and I just kept talking chatting after that.
It was like daily chats, like, oh that's nice, he's lovely and
just building on that. Yeah, yeah.
Like any other normal relationship.
How was your conversation or your communication with Ozzie as
you were finding that you reallylike this guy and you might want
(16:01):
to, you know, you might want to have something with him.
How? How is it working out between
you and Ozzie? Well this is 2 weeks in so at
this point after the idea of thedating other books.
So Ozzy and I have a couples account on a hookup app and so
(16:25):
got the same login. He can see all the messages, all
the likes and whatever. It's like, look at this one.
Look at this one. Look at this one.
And I didn't understand at the moment, but even that thought at
the time was feeling wrong. Like why are you picking blokes?
For me that's so gross. And it just did not sit well.
Yeah. Did you find that sort of, I
(16:46):
mean, because it's really out ofthe out of the 9 dots of what
marital relationships are supposed to be like.
Like, why would my husband be excited for me to meet other
men? Yeah, it that's really outside
the norm. Very weird feeling weird didn't
sit right and then him like evenflicking through and and sending
(17:09):
me. It was actually Ozzie who found
Mr. T actually and and and forwarded me his profile and I'm
like don't know, but started talking to him anyway.
Yeah and we clicked from like the first couple of messages.
Great. So that was great.
(17:30):
But like moving forward after Aussies sending me or or or
pointing out Oh yeah, this person looks cool.
This person. I didn't understand even then
why it felt ick. I, I couldn't process why it was
not weird, but it was almost like, and I think I did say this
(17:51):
to him once I found the words and it wasn't until I even was
listening to the podcasts all over the place, joined Twitter
eventually was trying to educatemyself about the whole
lifestyles things that I learnt words like I didn't even know
what boundaries were, for example, and why all of a sudden
(18:14):
something happened and I felt upset about it.
And it wasn't until months and months later that I found out,
Oh, that was a. Boundary I was.
Uncomfortable with? Yeah, a boundary.
And, and just learning what thatmeans, you're right, yes.
So all of this building up, building up, building up to a
point of overwhelm essentially. So describe if if you can
(18:38):
describe that overwhelm a littlebit.
So what I'm hearing, it might have been a combination of being
attracted to a man who wasn't your husband, your husband
encouraging that you not knowingwhat to make of it, not knowing
what maybe maybe not knowing whether you even wanted to or
not. You kind of did, you kind of
didn't. But just not finding a container
(19:00):
that all of that would fit in leads to overwhelm.
I think it can. And then and then still feeling
guilty about wanting to do that,but you've got your husband
there and you know, now all of this that I know societal
programming of monogamy and all of this background and like even
feeling guilty on the date when my husband's still there sitting
(19:21):
next to me going, come on, come on, have a have a chat chat.
I'm like, Are you sure? Like surely what's the hidden
catch here? And like all of this is
processing and then like the thoughts are going through my
mind, but I haven't really process what the thoughts are or
understand what they are. They're kind of like 1/2 thought
(19:44):
or an idea. But it's not until like Venus
puts it in words where you go. That's what it is.
And, and it's feeling like you're actually, I use the word
manipulated because that's what my psychologist clarified it as.
You're being manipulated into his fantasy.
(20:05):
And it's like, oh, but I'm just,I just wanna him.
I just wanna make him happy. And and I realized now again,
looking back on it, like the first six to eight months was
just me doing what I normally doand just wanting to make
everyone happy, but not putting myself first.
Or understanding my own needs, 'cause I don't even know what my
(20:27):
needs are at this point. I don't know what I want.
I just was out for some adventure and and meeting new
people 'cause that's fun. And I'm in my own little
isolated baby world bubble and just getting outside of the
house is exciting. Yeah.
Yeah. So that's all adding up to the
overwhelm and the messages that are constantly pinging.
(20:49):
I really should have turned off notifications a lot earlier,
should have turned off like active status on the thing
because I realized for me just like 5 messages in a week is way
too much. Try to continue those
conversations on to see what's. Going on well, especially if
you're the kind of person that feels, you know, you're just so
nice and you're so polite to everyone.
(21:10):
You feel like you you owe everybody a response if they've
pinged you and it can be very overwhelming.
Yeah, and especially when they they say something that feels
really awkward and it's like, I don't know how to respond to
that. Aussie, what do I say to this?
(21:31):
And, and then it's like, OK, well, I need to work on
something. And then it's just, I, I might
sit on it for a few hours and try to work out what to say.
And it's just, I'm at work and it's eating at me.
All I can think about is how to respond to this message.
And I'm like, I didn't even knowat that point.
If that's not anxiety, I don't know what it is.
And I'm like, OK, so this is me like so much learning in
(21:51):
internal learning and growth that's happened in the last few
years. It's been an epic journey of all
sorts. And you, you know, in spite of
the fact that I've talked about that endlessly, you, you can't
even understand the scope of howdeep that can go working through
this dynamic because it's a level of intimacy and a level of
(22:14):
communication that in my, you know, and this is just my
opinion. I don't think long term vanilla
monogamous relationships, very few of them will reach those
levels because this forces you to have uncomfortable
conversations and talk about things that normal monogamous
(22:35):
couples never would. And every time you open one of
those doors, you've reached another level of intimacy.
And it makes you vulnerable and it can make you scared and it
can make you exhilarated and it can, it can do all of that
stuff. But if you stick with it, you
get all the goodies at the end. I mean, that's.
(22:55):
That's right. The hard part is because you
don't coming from to it from such a position where you know.
Nothing about the. Lifestyle, having the vocabulary
to explain what you're feeling and circling back to the ichabat
(23:16):
Aussie sending me potential options.
Feeling IK was it actually feelslike you're pimping me out.
I was like are. Are you getting money out of
this from these blokes? Like.
This feels so ingrainedly bad right now.
(23:40):
And until I was able to actuallywork out that feeling and
explain that to him, he's like, oh, and then he stopped doing
that, which was great. Brave of you.
Brave of you to be vulnerable enough to say that.
Yeah, but he was so excited at the that point and it was like a
burst is bubble, Yeah. You don't want to disappoint
(24:03):
him. It's like, yeah.
Where do I start and where do you you know and?
He was just a sad puppy after that until he found something
else to to do, I guess. Yeah.
So there's all these bits that we like even.
OK, so you've got the male ego and you've you've you've had a
marriage of 15 years. I don't know how many years it
(24:26):
was at that point. And it's like you've always, for
the entire process of the marriage, never wanted to do
anything that would hurt his ego.
Yes, of course. Or hurt him in any other way,
you know. In any other way?
Exactly. If if anything, your job is to
fluff up as ego, right? As well as cook and clean and do
everything else. Exactly.
(24:47):
And like to to even put that idea in a box and just say no.
Actually, my feelings are this. And despite not really wanting
to offend you, I feel this was really hard.
Yeah, I'm sure. It was yeah, because you don't
(25:09):
know what his reaction is gonna be.
And then and then the whole thing could just blow up.
And so I think that, you know, so good on you for being brave,
but it kicks you up to another level of intimacy because that's
probably something he needed to hear how you were perceiving,
how you were perceiving that process.
So that's one example that I canthink of that that just happened
(25:34):
every other week kind of thing. There was something else that
was, I remember thinking or reading somewhere we, we do
something and it's like, what's it saying?
2 steps forward, three steps back kind of thing.
And it's like, yes. That is exactly.
What it is like we'd do something exciting that wouldn't
feel right or that wouldn't be good, or we'd have a date and
(25:56):
something was said and then we're like angry at each other
and then we'd start again kind of thing.
So that was just going on and onfor like six months.
It's amazing. Yeah.
It's amazing to me that you thatyou stuck with this when you
(26:16):
were so uncomfortable and that and you're in a learning curve
of a whole new thing that you'd never considered.
And it's amazing to me. So there was something in you
that caused you to want to stickwith it.
There had to be something in there that was also intriguing
to you. Aside from wanting to please him
and make him happy, there had tobe something in you.
(26:37):
Was also saying I'm still curious about this.
I'm still wondering where where this could possibly go.
Was that going on for you? Yeah, like he went off on a very
jolly tangent of going crazy andbuying me lots of toys.
So it's like, oh, dildo, I don'tknow if I can do that.
(27:03):
No, that's not. Going to go.
What? Yeah, all of those, all of those
ideas. And it's like, oh, actually,
yeah, apparently I'm a size queen.
Yeah. So there were like all of these
learnings of my own pleasant desires kind of thing.
And yeah, we've played with toysin the past, but they were just
(27:26):
never that interesting or like we had really cheap crappy toys
that yeah, he was, he was on a mission to find some good ones.
So blessed to find something that one.
So that was great. But yeah, I'm also the
personality that doesn't give up.
I'm, I'm an A type personality. I've got to do everything
perfect. I've, I don't know, I just have
(27:48):
to say something. One of those.
Perfectionists. Yeah, if I start something, I've
got to do it right and also and see it through.
Learning that. Well, I was also in in Venus's
chat group and then hearing other girls stories was there is
no right. There's no right way of doing
things. It's your own journey.
It's your own, however you make it feel right for you.
(28:12):
And I was like, but I don't knowwhat's on the menu, what I've
got to choose from, and I wish there was a menu that would make
it really easy. Yeah, and that's amazing.
I think you're the first person that I've talked to that came
from such a pure vanilla background and then jumped both
feet into this thing that's, youknow, because I think a lot of
(28:36):
the trajectory for a lot of people that we know, maybe they
started out swinging or just trying, you know, dancing with
other people at a club and then maybe it went from there to
there and then, you know, but cuckolding is.
Pillow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Pillowed way out here in the lunatic fringe.
And you're, you know, that's a big journey for somebody who
(28:59):
hasn't really been exposed or considered any of that stuff.
So that's amazing. That's amazing that that you'd
you've done as well as you have.Well, moving on to that, as it
culminated a few months later inme having complete panic attack,
nervous breakdown and hospitalized.
Yeah, Yeah. So it just got to the point
(29:20):
where I didn't even know what anxiety was and dealing with
that, and I couldn't work out why my brain was shutting down
and I couldn't make sentences anymore and I wasn't functioning
at work. And I'm still getting all these
messages and still overwhelmed at how to answer them.
(29:42):
And in normal life, there's birthday kids, birthday parties
going on and a perfectionist maze doing a million hours just
trying to do create decorations for them to have the perfect
birthday party kind of thing anda whole host of things.
So, you know, I was probably epically tired and just needed a
(30:05):
break from exit stage or right of life.
And yeah, woke up in the middle of the night and just couldn't
breathe and just went into a full body cramp and just
shaking. And yeah, I had to call the
ambulances in. Oh my God.
So and so. What what was Oz?
How did Ozzy make sense of this?Or he, I'm sure he didn't know
(30:26):
what was going on either. He he could see some changes in
you, but not not knowing what the origin was at all.
Yeah, yeah. Well, we're just thinking, oh,
you're just going into a tired phase.
So I'll be like collapsed out onthe couch just by end of work
and just like, oh, can't function today.
You, you make dinner. After this panic attack.
(30:46):
I, I was in bed for three weeks.I could not move.
And yeah, so just trying to build up life.
So that was an instant stop to any lifestyle stuff, of course.
But on the other side, I had Mr.T still messaging me.
So we're quite close friends at this point, played a lot
together. And all the time not being able
(31:07):
to find anyone else who a was aslovely as him or as good as him,
as a playmate as well. So yes, he set the bar quite
high. On top of that, all of the
flakes, all of the ones who justwere picture collectors or just
trying to get their rocks off byhaving saucy conversations or.
All the people that Venus talkedabout in her in her her podcast.
(31:31):
All those, you know, that's overwhelming as it is.
So it's like, OK, I'm well and truly done with messaging in it
at the moment. Apps off.
Yeah. So I was off work for quite a
few months even just couldn't leave the house.
That's crazy. Yeah.
So mental health. Yeah.
(31:53):
Ended up going to health for sure.
Psychologist then for, you know,weekly sessions there and, and a
lot of those chats with her, like I, I thought it was just
all of my overwhelm of regular life.
Like I didn't really want to talk to her about lifestyle
stuff, but she dragged it out ofme and, and, and I explained how
we had Mr. T going on on the side of the marriage just like,
(32:15):
and she wasn't, she wasn't judgy.
She's like, you know, adults do anything they want behind closed
doors. It's between them.
It's consensual. It's not my problem, not my
business. You do it, which is great.
But again, having someone to listen listen to, because Ozzy
and I weren't able to talk to each other on that same sort of
level at this point. Was she helping you understand
(32:39):
some of your own anxiety and your own wants and and how you
got to that place of breakdown? Yeah, yeah.
And a lot of that would be what was one of the mantras Your your
your feelings are not your thoughts or something along
those lines. Was basically understanding that
even the thought of non monogamybeing a clash of your inner
(33:07):
thoughts is a is how you've beenbrought up.
And I'm like, oh sure, yeah. So it's even if it's not front
of mind at that point, it's everything that you've ever
known subconsciously putting these messages in your head to,
to, to clash with what you're wanting to do.
And then it's still feeling wrong for that stage.
(33:28):
Right. Right.
Yeah. So it's.
Like that's that, that's that thousands of years of cultural
programming thing. You know that you're supposed
to, you're supposed to live lifejust this way.
And if you veer off to the side then it you don't have you don't
know what to attach. To Yeah, precisely.
And And so you just think, oh, Iwasn't even thinking about that,
but that's causing anxiety, which causes this, which causes
(33:49):
this. And then, oh, you're on the
floor. That's great.
Yeah. So that was a lot of learnings
there and a lot of processing before that went on.
So all the lifestyle was on pause for about 6 months.
Stuff other than seeing Mr. T aswe probably do.
So that, that that leaves me with this question.
(34:11):
So he he obviously was a good friend in support through that
at A at a time when maybe your communication with Ozzie wasn't
add its optimum. So how did you knit all of that
back together? Finally getting more healed,
(34:31):
more so like it was a good six months before I could even have
my regular work hours back again.
Sort of built up to that from a fatigue side.
Yeah. Lots of talking between Mr. T
and him. And then like we still had our
own dates together, all three ofus, and just talking stuff out
(34:51):
in general. And it wasn't until I had enough
energy to say, OK, I think I'm ready to turn the back the apps
back on and see if I can see if I can find another bull that is
interesting enough to me anyway,'cause apparently I'm rather
picky. And I'm like, I'm happy to be
picky. And I've also discovered that,
(35:12):
you know, if you want a, a connection through like
conversation or some sort of shared interests or there's a
word for that, yes, like, oh, don't make me feel rubbish now
if I get it wrong, but like Sapio, is it sapiosexual that?
One yeah, so well, that's that'sme too.
(35:34):
It's it's where you're, you needto have a, a mental intellectual
connection. It's, it's tied to your libido.
Like you don't really turn on properly if you don't have that.
Exactly. And not even I'm I'm exactly the
same way. Yeah, yeah.
So even saying. So instead of judging yourself,
Eve, then you find, OK, so I'm sort of hardwired this way and
(35:57):
it's OK that I like smart men that will talk to me.
Yeah, and and like, not even realizing as I'm, you know,
swiping through photos, like finding nobody attractive.
It's like probably because I actually have to chat to them
first. I'm like OK.
Right top hint for for the guys out there that bump into a CPO
(36:18):
sexual woman, you have to enter through her mind.
But she might not even know thatshe is at that point.
Right, she might not even know but so try that instead of
sending penis pictures and stufflike that.
It might. It might work better.
For you exactly. Yeah.
So it wasn't until I was feeling, you know, healthy
(36:40):
enough to be able to get out there again that we started back
on the apps. And I can't remember if I
started the Tinder, not Tinder Twitter account before that, but
just I wanted to kind of not have an outlet.
Ozzie already had that as an outlet.
And I just wanted to find other girls that were on the same path
(37:02):
as me. But there doesn't seem to be any
on Tinder. All it is is porn and and look
at my only fans. I'm like, I don't want to say
all that yet the. Algorithm takes there is there
is a lot of you have to do a lotof deleting and blocking or
muting accounts to just have thepeople that you want to talk.
To yeah, yeah. So it's a lot of work.
Yeah, that's right. But annoyingly, it's still, if
(37:25):
you want to actually learn more,it's like, oh, get on the Mon
app. It's like, I don't have time to
get on the Mon app and I'm in the wrong time zone anyway, so
that won't work. You don't have time to read
blogs. Yeah, so it is a hard one, but
then you you find communities like the Slut Sisters or Venus's
Connection of Girls or now Cocktails has has their group as
(37:46):
well. So that's inspiring because
those are the real people who aren't just interested in
flogging their, you know, paid subscription services and
actually have real helpful supporting things to say.
Yeah, They can share their own story that might help you in
your journey, which is. Yeah, that's.
(38:07):
Yeah, Yeah, that's certainly true.
Yeah. Well, that is that is an
inspiring story. So are are what what is your
status today? You're still with Mr. T?
Still with Mr. T, still looking for other interesting people to
play with and still getting flaked.
(38:28):
Got flaked again last week, like, oh man, just to be able to
get out of the house as a parentto line up a babysitter to make
sure that everyone is healthy, like you don't have to stay home
because the kids sick or or whatever is so much of A
logistical nightmare to then go on flake.
(38:52):
It's like just off. Alright, yeah, I suspect that
this person who I've already chatted to for off and on for a
couple of years, we suspect he was probably married and just
like just wanted to get his rocks off that way and cheating.
I don't know he knows, but. See, that's so you just gave
(39:13):
complete legitimacy, as did I toVenus's discussion about about
that behavior and behavior of people that you've invested time
in getting to know and having conversations with.
And they end up just flaking at the end.
It's it's infuriating. It's just infuriating.
It's it's almost like you literally need to if there's a
(39:36):
on on your dating app, if there's a phone function or a
video call function, do that before you book a hotel room.
Yes, for sure. Oh man.
And then even. Yeah, that's one of my policies.
Yeah. Yeah, that's one of my policies
too. I I don't meet anybody without
video chatting so we can see each other.
We, you know, I I just won't. I won't do it.
(39:57):
Yeah, we've been burned too manytimes as well.
Yeah, but even like this was just a drink date.
Any flakes? Right, that's.
Right. I've even met him before in all
places in the sporting goods section of A department store,
which that was a hilarious story, but that was like, we
were crossing paths and like, OK, so we'll, we can meet for 15
(40:20):
minutes as we just at least knowthat you're human and 'cause you
know, there's the bots out thereas well.
Not really the scammers. Yeah.
Yeah. Just to see what each other
looks like. So I know he's a real person,
just don't know if he's legitimately crazy.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
(40:40):
So. Oh my.
Goodness, much of that. Unfortunately, that comes with
the territory and I think over time you develop sort of a thick
skin for it. And I wish we didn't have to.
But my understanding is for my single friends that single
dating isn't any different. You know, it is, they go through
the same things. It's it's really very much the
(41:00):
same process. But there has to be an, an extra
level of honesty, I think, in this because you are sort of
inviting somebody into a marriage and, you know, you
wanna make sure that everybody'son the same page.
Yeah, yeah. And you don't get into a mess.
Even hearing what each couple wants of their bull is so
(41:23):
different out there. But everything is a spectrum.
It's it's fascinating. It is and it is.
Yeah. Just hearing, even hearing these
stories is are different too. Like how they've been treated.
Yeah, exactly. I was just, I have had
conversations with bulls that say, you know, it's not much
different on the bull side. You know, there's a lot of
(41:44):
couples that have treated them very poorly.
And so I don't know, maybe that just comes with lifestyle.
But my hope is that people find the joy that's possible there.
You find a deeper connection with your partner.
We we've kind of been on that spectrum where we started where
we wanted no emotional connection with a bull and then
(42:09):
we fell in love with one at one point and it changed everything,
you know, So it changed, it changed what I want permanently.
So now I don't want to settle for less than having a real
connection and real feelings and, and bitchered.
My other half is good with that.He he wants that too.
(42:31):
You know it just makes it betterfor everybody if you can and
that and certainly not all cuckold couples want that or
invite that yeah, You know, we we tripped into ours.
But if you can find it, you know, our philosophy is, you
know, this is more love for creates more love for everybody.
Yeah yeah, definitely. And and and we're and we're good
(42:52):
with that. So I if you could give one of
your juiciest pieces of advice to the women of the world that
may have a husband that perhaps has approached her with this
discussion and perhaps had some of the anxiety that you went
(43:13):
through, how would you advise her?
Definitely educate yourself, look up all of the different
helpful sites that you can, if you can get on the Mon apps,
even even just regular dating advice websites and apps.
(43:38):
And also things learning even things like attachment theory
and how that relates to how you interact with your partner or
the potential bulls you're trying to interact with makes a
massive difference. And if you're starting out from
a, a place where I had, it's like, OK, you just take baby
(44:01):
steps. Like I went and took the big
dive diving board and it didn't land so well and which is so
strange because I do everything else in life with like
meticulous planning and organising and and what's the
end? What's the end plan, strategy
(44:23):
and all of that. And this is just like, I don't
even know why, but this song, I'm just going to sail the
season, see where it takes me. And that's been driving Aussie
insane. It's like you need to know where
we're going with this. Like, what's your plan?
But also one other point to the anxiety point and being able
able to communicate as a couple was Ozzy was not feeling like he
(44:47):
was getting what he wanted out of aspects of it.
So after, after a date, he'd be upset.
And it took me quite a few timesto recognize the pattern where
like, we didn't know what the word was, but it was Cukangst or
what is known as cukangst. It's like for two days, he'd be
irritable or whatever and he'd say something that would just
(45:09):
burst my bubble and all of the excitement would drop and I'd
feel like shit and I'd feel remorseful.
I'd feel like, well, if you feelthat bad, what's the whole point
of this? You're making me feel bad and
guilty about it. I like, I'm just gonna give up
if you feel this way. And every time you make me feel
shit about what I just did, which, if I remind you, was your
(45:29):
idea to begin with, begin with, back off.
Well, I didn't even say back offbecause I'm too polite.
But on the third day, he'd come crawling back and say, oh, I'm
so sorry. I didn't mean that all.
And I'm all good now. I mean, I'm not really all good,
(45:50):
but I've come and I've thought about it a bit more, but I feel
better now. And it's like, and that is the
angst rising and falling, the drop.
And I'm like, oh man. But again, I didn't learn about
that until I heard Venus pointedout I.
Was like, oh. Jeez, yeah.
And he didn't know to explain what his wants were either.
(46:11):
So until he was able to like, I didn't know about, you know,
the, the, the humiliation. So I was like, I don't want to
tease you about your Dick size. God, that's like the worst thing
you can possibly say to your husband or partner.
And that's, that is the common interpretation of that.
(46:32):
But if you, you know, for those who practice that in a healthy
way, I mean, Bitchard, Bitchard is into that.
And what we found is that it, weapproach it in a playful manner.
It's not mean spirited, it's playful, but it releases him.
It has totally eroticized his sexual shame.
(46:53):
And that is so freeing in his mind because he, he's not a he,
he doesn't have any of the cock's shame anymore.
You know, we just make fun of itand have fun with it and laugh
about it and it's gone. And that is huge personal
growth. And it really was a pathway for
him to release his sexual shame,which many people have a lot of
(47:17):
that. So if you can see it in that way
and if you can use it in that way, if if, if your husband
would express that to you. And.
And most of the time, I think they don't even know what's
intriguing or interesting about that.
Yeah. They just know that they kind of
like to experience it. Yeah.
And but that would be my advice on that one, is approach it in a
(47:41):
playful way. But there is a way to eroticize
sexual shame. And that is a gift you can give
your husband that will pay dividends forever.
Yeah. Because you're you.
You're holding the key to their freedom in their mind.
OK, say what you did there. Just just little words like that
gets them excited or him excitedand but you don't know that.
(48:04):
So it is educating yourself withthe tools and finding out what
it is. So like the sex and psychology
podcast really drills into that and trying to it took me so long
and I'm still learning to wrap my head around.
So this is the tip for the ladies.
Try to understand what actually motivates your partner into
(48:27):
wanting this. Like what is it that they find
attractive about it? And in my case, he just wants to
see me happy and and laughing and be able to share something
exciting together. Like it's not, it's not even
about the sex. It's about seeing me smile and
light up and seeing a text message come through a lot of
(48:50):
the time. So it's the whole thing.
It's not getting railed by this big black ball.
If that's what you're into it it.
It's the compersion, the you know, when you're happy because
your partner's happy, that compersion, that compersion
piece. But and also just asking your
(49:11):
partner, as you suggested, asking your partner, what do
they want out of this or what? Why do they want this?
That's a question that forces them into themselves because
they have to find a way to answer that.
They have to really look inside themselves to figure out what,
well, what is it? What what is it?
Yeah, make them answer that for sure.
And just because it's hot isn't good enough of an answer.
(49:34):
Why is it hot? Right, right, right.
There's my nugget of wisdom. You can call it Eve's Nuggets of
Wisdom. Well, you have given us many,
many, many. I thank you so much for spending
some time. Your story is inspirational.
It's, it's touching. I'm so glad that you guys have
(49:55):
navigated your way to a place ofhappiness.
And I think being willing to Share your story about your
extreme anxiety and how you found a way to unravel that
might be very, very helpful to alot of other people.
So yeah, I personally thank you sincerely for being willing to
talk about that. You're very welcome, it's been a
(50:18):
pleasure. So hopefully we'll talk again.
I I've got 1000 other questions,but we're already in about an
hour in. So we'll save those for another
time and I'll write them down and put them in a little EVE
file and and maybe we'll have another chance to talk.
Yes. Sure.
Or maybe. Maybe with, maybe with you and
Ozzie together. So yeah, good.
Anyway, thank you so very much. And if you want people to reach
(50:42):
you on Twitter anywhere else, you can let my producer know and
he'll put it in the show notes. Do you do you want to give them
your Twitter handle or anything like that or is that annoying
to? You, well, they, I do have
turned off DMS, turned off on myTwitter.
But I guess if you respond to any of my other posts with a
(51:03):
question, I can see there. And if I can see that you're not
just wanting to send me horrendous stuff, I can I can
follow you so we can connect. Like an actual genuine question.
Yeah. So it's cuckolders Eve, right?
That's right, cuckolders under score.
Eve under score. Eve OK, there it is.
We'll make sure it's in the shownotes.
Thank you again, Eve. It's been just an absolute
(51:24):
pleasure to talk with you. Fantastic, hope that was helpful
for all you ladies out there andthe gents too.
Yeah, I hope it's helpful for everyone.
It's a real conversation by a real person, and that's where
you learn stuff. Yeah, that's right.
Keep you out of that anxiety. Yeah.
See you guys. Thank you.
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