June 30, 2024 • 26 mins
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You know, she really enjoyed or liked the soccer coach, our kids
soccer coach. She was younger and you know, we
have lots of bedroom talk about and nothing happened, right?
We just sort of fantasize about it.
And, and she said to me one day,she said, you know, you sort of
seem a bit sad after we, you know, we've been fantasizing
about that. And we, she said, we don't have
(00:22):
to do that anymore. That's making you jealous.
And it was actually the opposite.
I said, no, no, no, it's, I'm not sad because it's fantasy.
I'm sad because it's not, doesn't feel like it's going to
become reality. And she was kind of surprised by
that. And, and again, we'd had this
heart to heart and, and I said, I really want you to do this,
like pursue this. And so that was the first time
(00:42):
we sort of had a, a real sort of, it's more of a, a cock
dynamic. There wasn't really the
humiliation piece, but she was doing something on her own, you
know, And it, it turned out better than expected for both of
us. Hey everybody, I just wanted to
(01:08):
give you a quick notice. I am starting to offer a
one-on-one coaching session. It's called Ask Crystal.
It is coaching for individuals and couples as they explore
ethical non monogamy. Whatever your dynamic is.
I've been living in this dynamicfor 10 years and I've learned a
ton. And I hope to share some of that
(01:29):
wisdom with you in the hopes that it will help you.
So you'll get the details in theshow notes and I hope to see you
there. Good afternoon.
Crystal Welch here and the Beyond Monogamy podcast today
I'm very excited to have a conversation with.
It's just a friend I met on Twitter of all places.
(01:50):
He is a physician, a practicing physician.
His wife and he are in some typeof dynamic, which I'm gonna have
him describe. But it's been a really
fascinating journey to hear how they are evolving and have
evolved. And I thought it would be
interesting for everyone to get a peek into this good doctor's
(02:13):
life and and how he navigates this with his wife.
So welcome, Doc Aaron. Crystal, thank you for for
having me on your show. So let's start with why don't
you tell us or tell our audience, how did you meet your
wife? And was your agreement in the
(02:34):
very beginning to just have a sort of traditional monogamous
marriage? Yeah, that's a good question.
You know, we we met, we worked together actually, and, and met
that way and, and pretty early on in our relationship had a
fair amount of sexual adventure.And, you know, we both had a a
pretty high sex drive. We got into, you know, some non
(02:55):
monogamy, but it was, you know, always done together and in this
consensual way. So, you know, we went to some
swimming, swinging clubs and we met some other couples and and,
you know, it was fun. It never really was amazing
though, you know, and, and it wasn't until we sort of did this
more one sided monogamy that we sort of found that that that was
(03:17):
the, the sort of spice that really fit for, for our
relationship. Tell us how that evolved for you
because one of the questions, frequent questions that comes up
for a lot of men is because thisis typically a male driven
dynamic. How do I get my wife to do this?
And you know, how did that startfor you?
(03:39):
And then what was her response? I, I got lucky 'cause I'm, I'm
probably one of the the rare guys where it was was more her
idea, at least initially. And we, we were talking one, one
night and, and just kind of sharing past stories and, and
she said, just tell me somethingkinky that you would, you know,
(04:01):
I had done with a, a previous partner and I, I dated somebody
when I was in university who, you know, have long distance
relationship with her boyfriend.So her boyfriend would come out
and visit and when he would visit, they would end up having,
you know, they'd have sex together and then she'd sort of
come back and hang out with me after that.
I mean, I had no idea what cuckolding was.
(04:22):
Didn't really feel like a cuckolding thing, but I, I, you
know, loved the experience and was recounting that to my wife
and, and she really, you know, thought that was kind of pretty
neat. And, and then she started
recounting stories of, of a boyfriend she dated in
university. And, you know, her, her stories
rivaled mine. You know, he had a roommate and,
(04:43):
and it started with, you know, the roommate kind of listening
to her and her boyfriend and they knew he would listen and it
both got them both off. And she started, you know,
progressing it to where she would leave the door open and,
you know, he would sit on the couch.
Imagine like students, like small place, right?
And you know, he'd sort of watched them and, and one time
(05:06):
she just, you know, without asking her boyfriend, just
invited him in and and took charge.
And, you know, he sort of watched them up close and you
know, it progressed over over weeks.
And, and she said she had a great six month relationship
with the two of them kind of trying out new things.
And there wasn't a lot of recentactivity.
Occasionally, you know, but it was more she would, she would be
(05:28):
with one of them and then go be with the other one or one of
them was making dinner and she'dbe making out with one of them
on the couch. Or she'd she'd recall movie
nights where, you know, they'd be watching a movie where she's
got a guy on each side of her and you know, she's kind of
taking turns with them. And, and I just, I love that.
I mean, it was a huge turn on for me to hear that and clearly
a huge memory and turn on for her.
(05:49):
And, you know, I asked if it wassomething she'd want to do again
and she absolutely said, you know, she, she would for sure.
And, you know, and then it kind of progressed from there.
Cool. I heard a number of different
things in there, but a, it sounds like she, she was sort
of, she sort of gave herself permission early on to be
sexually free, which is really cool because I think that's a
(06:12):
hard place for a lot of women toreach.
They have to sort of evolve to it.
So good on her for that. And then it also sounds like the
configuration that she had in college there was sort of Poly
flavored where, you know, it wasn't you, you said it wasn't
really a threesome, but they allgot along and they all you know,
(06:35):
they she sort of switched back and forth.
That's kind of a more of a Poly dynamic.
So because what I'm seeing in the field out here is a lot more
cut couples are kind of evolving, seems like to me
anyway, many cut couples are evolving toward a polydynamic
where they might have one boyfriend that's more steady.
(07:00):
I I know a number of couples whohave live in boyfriends, so
there's a lot of possibility there.
Have you ever while you guys were developing your own rhythm
and your own interests, did you ever Have you ever found
yourself feeling jealous or leftout as your wife took lovers
(07:22):
but. You know, I have a little bit, I
mean, it's, it's part of the appeal of it, right?
And I think what you see about Polly, probably, you know, it's
probably accurate. You know, for my wife, at least
a one time stand or one day stand doesn't really work.
You know, it's got to be somebody that she has a
connection with and and you know, and then develops a bit
(07:43):
more of a relationship with, right.
And it just makes it safer. You can do more things.
And but there was always still abit of a power dynamic like she
would she would be the one in charge that the times it didn't
work well was, you know, we were, I had to find somebody
online or through a dating site or something else.
And if I was pushy, really wanting somebody or wanting this
(08:04):
to happen, I mean, it just didn't work right.
So like her being in charge and her her finding somebody that
she could really connect with, you know, it made it better, you
know, certainly better sex for her.
It was just more intriguing for me.
I never really had this huge jealousy.
Like I really did like knowing that that she was having a
(08:25):
really good time. There was just something,
there's a little bit of angst there, but not a lot.
Like there was something that itwas just such a turn on about
that, you know, the first time we did it because we can't, we
sort of had swinging things. We've been in the same room with
other couples and swapping. We didn't do that a lot, but you
know, she really enjoyed or liked the soccer coach, our kids
(08:49):
soccer coach. He was younger and and you know,
we'd have lots of bedroom talk about it.
Nothing happened, right? We would just sort of fantasize
about it. And and she said to me one day
we're sitting down at the beach having kind of just a heart to
heart talk about our relationship.
And she said, you know, you sortof seem a bit sad after we, we,
(09:10):
you know, we've been fantasizingabout that.
And, you know, we, she said, we don't have to do that anymore.
That's making you jealous. And it was actually the
opposite. I said, no, no, no, it's, I'm
not sad because it's fantasy. I'm sad because it's not,
doesn't feel like it's going to become reality.
And she was kind of surprised bythat.
And again, we did this heart to heart and, and I said, I really
(09:31):
want you to do this, like pursuethis.
And so that was the first time we sort of had a, a real sort
of, it's more of a, a dynamic. It wasn't really the humiliation
piece, but she was doing something on her own, you know,
And it it turned out better thanexpected for both of her.
That's fantastic. And the other thing that I'm
(09:53):
hearing too in your description is you guys really take your
communication seriously. Like she's concerned about you
having jealous feelings. You're wanting her to have
pleasure. I mean, that's, that's really
good stuff for a healthy relationship, which is why, you
know, I get back to why isn't everybody doing this?
(10:15):
But of course, everybody won't ever do it.
But it's it, it's such rich ground.
If you can find that place whereyou know you both are invested
in it, you both are having fun, you're both stimulated, it's
keeping your relationship fresh and growing all the time.
I think those are such importantthings.
(10:36):
And those are some of the thingsI think go stale in the monogamy
world and why a lot of people choose to pursue something like
this because it's, as I've said many, many, many times, my
favorite psychologist, Esther Perel has said, you know, all
human beings have two core conflicting needs, the need for
(10:59):
safety and security and the needfor change and adventure.
That's hard and that causes a lot of conflict in monogamy.
If the this this way of being consensually non monogamous
really solves both of those issues, do you feel that that's
(11:19):
that that's potentially true foryou?
I mean, I that's how I see it for us, my husband provides the
safety and security and stability that the relationship
needs. You know, I bring the heat.
That's how it works at our house.
Well, Crystal, absolutely right.I mean, I, I think that that
those two needs are probably even more true for women than
men. You know, I mean, if you look at
(11:42):
the research, the it's upwards of 50% of men fantasize about
this, right? And it's a very small number
that do it and it's a smaller number of women who fantasize it
but about it. But I think, I think women, you
know, they may be looking at it from a place of fear and just
not enough understanding about it.
I think men bring it up to womenin a terrible way.
And, you know, the porn and stuff out there is terrible.
(12:05):
So, you know, people just get a,a wrong conception or, or idea
of, of what this can be right? It, it, it can actually be
something quite beautiful and, and, and you know, quite amazing
for all three people involved ormore, depending how you set it
up. If you, if somebody came to you,
let's say you had a patient thatcame to you and was asking your
(12:28):
advice, saying they were conflicted and they wanted their
wife to do this, but they didn'tknow how to bring it up.
Or maybe it's a woman saying, you know, my husband wants me to
do this. I'm not sure about it.
Sounds intriguing. How would you advise them?
Well, I can tell you I would, I would definitely not talk about
this with patients. OK.
So that that would, yeah. That's right.
(12:49):
You're not a you're not a psychologist, so that's not
really your wheelhouse. But but you know what, it is
something that that I mean, you know, I can tell you certainly a
good rich sex life is really important for health, right?
I mean it, it's a huge part of being human.
I think monogamy can work for a lot of people.
(13:10):
I think it doesn't work for a lot of people.
And I think, you know, I would encourage people to, to take a
risk and explore the options. It doesn't mean it's right for
everybody, but, but at least have the conversation, right?
And I, I think there's a lot of people out there who just don't
have the conversation. So they, you know, they either
miss out on something or worse, you know, they, they go have an
(13:31):
affair or something else, right,Which you know, is, is harmful
to a relationship as well. So, you know, there's, there's
huge potential benefits from this.
And, and I can certainly tell you from experience when, when
my wife has a new boyfriend and you know, it's not that often,
right? But like when she has a new
boyfriend and it's sort of hot and heavy in those first few
months, like, you know, will sometimes play around with
(13:54):
denial, but like she's much moreturned on.
She's much happier. There's definitely much more
desire or she'll try to do the the chastity things sometimes
with me, but you know, or denial, but she she always
breaks it before me, you know, so you.
Know that's a terrible problem to have, Absolutely.
You know, so I, I don't know that I could truly do do that.
(14:17):
Well, we tried a little bit, but.
It sounds to me though, that youguys are playful, you're having
fun with it. You, you don't bend it hard and
fast rules. You just experiment with things.
I mean, I think a lot of those things are the key elements, the
key elements to keeping it fresh, keeping it fun, keeping
(14:38):
it alive and just being creativeand supportive of one another.
I think that's it's really just beautiful how you've explained
it. So I appreciate your your story
very much. Like having having that
connection being authentic, you know, if something's not
working, you know, speak up works better.
(15:00):
I found if you know the the female part of the relationship
is determining, you know, who's she gonna meet and that sort of
stuff, right? It it really you gotta let her
her run the show a little bit. With this, I think that's really
key. I mean, 'cause really one of the
core tenants, as I understand itis, and the way that we pursue
(15:23):
this is very much like like you guys do.
This is a it, it should be, it should be a female choice.
I mean, we're not the opposite of that is how it's portrayed in
porn as a fulfillment of a male sexual fantasy.
You know, we're not, we're not kink dispensers.
(15:44):
And when you're, you shouldn't look to your woman to fulfill
your kink, develop the, the conversation and develop the
interest and ask questions and be curious about her and find
out what you can find out there.Because you might be surprised,
you know, if you approach it in that manner, you know, as she's,
you know, you're interested in her having more pleasure or
(16:07):
having more fun or having more interest in her life rather than
fulfilling the male's kink fantasy.
I think if people would approachit more like that, they'd likely
have better results. Do you agree?
Do you agree with me? Yeah, absolutely.
And there's nothing wrong for the people that really like the
(16:27):
humiliation piece. It just didn't work for me and
and our relationship. But you know, because it also
makes it more about the man, right.
But you know, that's what is working for both people.
Then then great. But yeah, I, I think, I think
presenting it in a way of, you know, like I want to expand our
(16:48):
relationship and I'm, I really, I get off on seeing, you know,
you enjoy yourself and you know,I know from like some of the
things you've said, you get off on on wanting to be with
somebody else. So like, let's let's explore
that together, right. I think the safety factor too,
you know, it's a lot harder for women to have their man go off
(17:11):
and be with somebody else. So, you know, making it that one
sided non monogamy really workedfor us.
That was part of the deal to make this, you know, a success
and all. It's like she's got that
security. I'm not going anywhere.
But hey, if she wants to have a really good time with, you know,
a younger guy or somebody with more stamina or whatever, it is
(17:34):
great, right? Like she gets to have a lot of
fun and I get to share in that fun too, right?
It's, it's a pretty erotic thingwatching you're, you know, the
person you love more than anything, getting dressed up for
a date. And you know, you see your head
off and you, you know, she's probably not coming home till
2:00 in the morning and you're counting down those minutes and
(17:56):
you can't sleep and you're extremely aroused, right?
And you know when when she gets home and she starts telling you
all about it and you know it's and you see how routish she is,
It's. Pretty sexy.
Well, I'm so, so happy you took a few minutes to talk to us
because it just from the, the conversations that we've had
(18:21):
online, it just sounded like youhad a wonderful dynamic and
you've, you've found a way to navigate that.
I'll ask you one last question before we end.
Have have you had any big problems or issues that have
come up that you've had to navigate?
And if so, how did you do it? You know, the only thing that's
sort of come up over time, a couple of times actually.
(18:44):
I mean, she's she's an incredible catch and, you know,
very, very beautiful woman. So it, you know, sometimes when
she's been with a bull for six months or something and they do
develop a connection, right? Like that person does start to
fall in love. And you know, then sometimes
we'll get to a point where they say, look, I just want you to
(19:05):
myself, like, you know, like, let's stop all this and let's
just have our relationship together.
You know, that that does become a problem.
It's it's not a for sure thing that it's going to happen with
somebody. But you know, you can see how
how that's a possibility. So, you know, having ways to
navigate around that is going tobe important.
(19:26):
Again, that goes back to the communication, right?
And, and when we've had that happen, like we've usually ended
things with with that bull or boyfriend.
They're not the mean way or anything like that.
But it, you know, it just startsto become a little bit too messy
with that. And it's, it's not that feelings
aren't going to develop. I mean, it's hard for my wife
and somebody to be having sex for six or more months and and
(19:47):
not develop feelings, right? I mean, that's normal.
I think it's. It's not just sex.
Anybody that says it's just sex is probably lying about that.
You know, there's something moreto that, but it if it starts to
become a bit too intense, then that's a problem.
Yeah, Yeah, we, we've been through that too.
And I think what you've just described is the difference
(20:10):
between having a connection and also having a commitment.
You might have a connection witha bull, but my connection, my,
my commitment is to my husband. He, he comes first.
He's the one that's standing at the door at the end of the day.
(20:32):
And it but it is tricky, you know, it's I think it would be
unusual to spend a good amount of time with a bull and not
develop feelings just as you stated.
But it sounds like it sounds like you got.
Well, and, and Crystal, to be honest, both sides, right?
Like we, we were, you know, we, we lived out on the East Coast
and we were driving down, you know, just to point to this
(20:53):
vacation spot. And, and, you know, so we're in
the car for like 5 hours and it's, it's me, her boyfriend at
the time and, and her, and you're just having conversations
in the car and, you know, it's like, it felt almost like this.
It's hard to describe it like this relationship between the
three of us, right? Like he's expressing what he
(21:15):
likes. Actually, he really opened up
and and said that, you know, when, when she would go over to
his place back home, you know, he, he absolutely loved knowing
that she's coming back to me. You know, like there was just
something that boosted his energy about that way.
Like here he's fucking this guy's wife and, you know, really
(21:36):
enjoying it and just knowing what comes after that.
And you know, but having those conversations, the three of us
it, it just made me realize there's, there's it's not like
one and done like a one night standing just doesn't work.
But you, you are building a relationship with another
person, right? You've got your primary
relationship, but you are building this other
relationship. And I, I don't know that enough
(21:57):
of that is really discussed in the cut dynamic.
It still does tend to be more focused on the man as opposed to
what that woman needs and how that relationship develops.
Yes, I you're so right about that.
And I think that my friend Venusand I have talked about this
many, many times. We can't understand why every
(22:18):
woman wouldn't want a cuckold husband.
But you know, we say that jokingly, but but we, the
benefits for us are obvious to us.
And when asked what are the benefits to the man, one way
I've described it is, well, if you have a bull that you have a
relationship with and all three of you get along and you have
(22:40):
that chemistry and you've got good communication.
You know, the benefit to the husband is he gets to sort of
feed on that new relationship, inner energy that that she
brings to the relationship. But also from the bull
standpoint, he has all the pleasure and all the goodies
(23:00):
from the woman and none of the responsibilities, 'cause that's
the husband's. Yeah.
Well, it's, it's a good, I don'tknow.
I mean, it's a good point. I mean, tell you before we have
to go. I mean, we, we had a, we had a,
one of her boyfriends over, I guess a few months ago and, and
we had a weekend to ourselves and, and we're just watching a
(23:21):
movie and hanging out. And you know, you're right.
I mean, it's, it's nice for the woman because, you know, I, I
got some nice dinner stuff. I'm making him dinner.
We're kind of hanging out like he's getting her wine.
And, you know, we kind of get part way through this, this
movie, they're making out. She'll still come over and kiss
me a little bit. And, you know, eventually, like
he just says, you know, can we go to the bedroom?
(23:41):
And I mean, she just, it's quitesexy, right?
Like your wife smiling at you asthey head off to your bedroom
and they're in there for a bit having sex.
And, and, you know, she'd come out just to to check on me.
And, you know, I can see that he's orgasmed in her, right?
Because she climbs on me and she's rubbing a little bit on
top of me. And you know, clearly I'm
covered in him now, right? And.
(24:02):
And. You know, this was kind of quite
sexy and and she says, well, whydon't you finish cleaning up?
And then, you know, she goes back in there, has some more
sex, but we end up having sex the same night.
And it's just, it's, it's reallykinky and fun.
And you, you have such an interesting mix of crazy
emotions with the whole thing, you know, and, and we ended the
(24:26):
night actually because she wanted us both in there and
we're both sort of spooning her and you know, it's kind of sexy,
right? It's, it's, yeah, it's a neat
experience. So I would really encourage,
like your listeners, you know, talk to your spouse and, and, or
your partner and, you know, takea risk with that, but be very
authentic and honesty. Like these are the things I
(24:48):
would like. What do you want?
And, you know, have that very honest, real conversation.
Yeah, absolutely. And also ask what might be in
the way if if there's an interest and there's still
hesitancy, dig deeper into that.Find out what's in the way.
Because together you'd be surprised what you might be able
(25:09):
to discover about each other. And it might take you to an the
exalted place that you just heard from Doctor Aaron here of
where you can be in a, in a longterm marriage that, you know,
many of his peers who were married probably in the same
length of time are kind of staleand kind of bored and kind of
not having sex anymore. And he's like, woo Hoo.
(25:32):
Well, and this, you know, I've not ever had an affair and my
wife hasn't ever had an unconsensual affair.
You know, I can tell you this isa lot more fun than having an
affair and it's a lot more fun than it just, you know, dying
and becoming stale, right? So, you know, it's, it's, it's a
way to make it pretty interesting.
Yeah, absolutely. I just thank you so, so much for
(25:55):
spending some time. I think, I think our listeners
will get a great deal out of what you shared.
Cause what I got out of it was just a whole lot of joy and a
whole lot of communication and awhole lot of love between these
two people. So thank you so much, Doctor
Aaron and we'll, we'll have to check in with you again here in
a while and and maybe have another session.
You know, she really enjoyed or liked the soccer coach, our kids
soccer coach. She was younger and you know, we
have lots of bedroom talk about and nothing happened, right?
We just sort of fantasize about it.
And, and she said to me one day,she said, you know, you sort of
seem a bit sad after we, you know, we've been fantasizing
about that. And we, she said, we don't have
(00:22):
to do that anymore. That's making you jealous.
And it was actually the opposite.
I said, no, no, no, it's, I'm not sad because it's fantasy.
I'm sad because it's not, doesn't feel like it's going to
become reality. And she was kind of surprised by
that. And, and again, we'd had this
heart to heart and, and I said, I really want you to do this,
like pursue this. And so that was the first time
(00:42):
we sort of had a, a real sort of, it's more of a, a cock
dynamic. There wasn't really the
humiliation piece, but she was doing something on her own, you
know, And it, it turned out better than expected for both of
us. Hey everybody, I just wanted to
(01:08):
give you a quick notice. I am starting to offer a
one-on-one coaching session. It's called Ask Crystal.
It is coaching for individuals and couples as they explore
ethical non monogamy. Whatever your dynamic is.
I've been living in this dynamicfor 10 years and I've learned a
ton. And I hope to share some of that
(01:29):
wisdom with you in the hopes that it will help you.
So you'll get the details in theshow notes and I hope to see you
there. Good afternoon.
Crystal Welch here and the Beyond Monogamy podcast today
I'm very excited to have a conversation with.
It's just a friend I met on Twitter of all places.
(01:50):
He is a physician, a practicing physician.
His wife and he are in some typeof dynamic, which I'm gonna have
him describe. But it's been a really
fascinating journey to hear how they are evolving and have
evolved. And I thought it would be
interesting for everyone to get a peek into this good doctor's
(02:13):
life and and how he navigates this with his wife.
So welcome, Doc Aaron. Crystal, thank you for for
having me on your show. So let's start with why don't
you tell us or tell our audience, how did you meet your
wife? And was your agreement in the
(02:34):
very beginning to just have a sort of traditional monogamous
marriage? Yeah, that's a good question.
You know, we we met, we worked together actually, and, and met
that way and, and pretty early on in our relationship had a
fair amount of sexual adventure.And, you know, we both had a a
pretty high sex drive. We got into, you know, some non
(02:55):
monogamy, but it was, you know, always done together and in this
consensual way. So, you know, we went to some
swimming, swinging clubs and we met some other couples and and,
you know, it was fun. It never really was amazing
though, you know, and, and it wasn't until we sort of did this
more one sided monogamy that we sort of found that that that was
(03:17):
the, the sort of spice that really fit for, for our
relationship. Tell us how that evolved for you
because one of the questions, frequent questions that comes up
for a lot of men is because thisis typically a male driven
dynamic. How do I get my wife to do this?
And you know, how did that startfor you?
(03:39):
And then what was her response? I, I got lucky 'cause I'm, I'm
probably one of the the rare guys where it was was more her
idea, at least initially. And we, we were talking one, one
night and, and just kind of sharing past stories and, and
she said, just tell me somethingkinky that you would, you know,
(04:01):
I had done with a, a previous partner and I, I dated somebody
when I was in university who, you know, have long distance
relationship with her boyfriend.So her boyfriend would come out
and visit and when he would visit, they would end up having,
you know, they'd have sex together and then she'd sort of
come back and hang out with me after that.
I mean, I had no idea what cuckolding was.
(04:22):
Didn't really feel like a cuckolding thing, but I, I, you
know, loved the experience and was recounting that to my wife
and, and she really, you know, thought that was kind of pretty
neat. And, and then she started
recounting stories of, of a boyfriend she dated in
university. And, you know, her, her stories
rivaled mine. You know, he had a roommate and,
(04:43):
and it started with, you know, the roommate kind of listening
to her and her boyfriend and they knew he would listen and it
both got them both off. And she started, you know,
progressing it to where she would leave the door open and,
you know, he would sit on the couch.
Imagine like students, like small place, right?
And you know, he'd sort of watched them and, and one time
(05:06):
she just, you know, without asking her boyfriend, just
invited him in and and took charge.
And, you know, he sort of watched them up close and you
know, it progressed over over weeks.
And, and she said she had a great six month relationship
with the two of them kind of trying out new things.
And there wasn't a lot of recentactivity.
Occasionally, you know, but it was more she would, she would be
(05:28):
with one of them and then go be with the other one or one of
them was making dinner and she'dbe making out with one of them
on the couch. Or she'd she'd recall movie
nights where, you know, they'd be watching a movie where she's
got a guy on each side of her and you know, she's kind of
taking turns with them. And, and I just, I love that.
I mean, it was a huge turn on for me to hear that and clearly
a huge memory and turn on for her.
(05:49):
And, you know, I asked if it wassomething she'd want to do again
and she absolutely said, you know, she, she would for sure.
And, you know, and then it kind of progressed from there.
Cool. I heard a number of different
things in there, but a, it sounds like she, she was sort
of, she sort of gave herself permission early on to be
sexually free, which is really cool because I think that's a
(06:12):
hard place for a lot of women toreach.
They have to sort of evolve to it.
So good on her for that. And then it also sounds like the
configuration that she had in college there was sort of Poly
flavored where, you know, it wasn't you, you said it wasn't
really a threesome, but they allgot along and they all you know,
(06:35):
they she sort of switched back and forth.
That's kind of a more of a Poly dynamic.
So because what I'm seeing in the field out here is a lot more
cut couples are kind of evolving, seems like to me
anyway, many cut couples are evolving toward a polydynamic
where they might have one boyfriend that's more steady.
(07:00):
I I know a number of couples whohave live in boyfriends, so
there's a lot of possibility there.
Have you ever while you guys were developing your own rhythm
and your own interests, did you ever Have you ever found
yourself feeling jealous or leftout as your wife took lovers
(07:22):
but. You know, I have a little bit, I
mean, it's, it's part of the appeal of it, right?
And I think what you see about Polly, probably, you know, it's
probably accurate. You know, for my wife, at least
a one time stand or one day stand doesn't really work.
You know, it's got to be somebody that she has a
connection with and and you know, and then develops a bit
(07:43):
more of a relationship with, right.
And it just makes it safer. You can do more things.
And but there was always still abit of a power dynamic like she
would she would be the one in charge that the times it didn't
work well was, you know, we were, I had to find somebody
online or through a dating site or something else.
And if I was pushy, really wanting somebody or wanting this
(08:04):
to happen, I mean, it just didn't work right.
So like her being in charge and her her finding somebody that
she could really connect with, you know, it made it better, you
know, certainly better sex for her.
It was just more intriguing for me.
I never really had this huge jealousy.
Like I really did like knowing that that she was having a
(08:25):
really good time. There was just something,
there's a little bit of angst there, but not a lot.
Like there was something that itwas just such a turn on about
that, you know, the first time we did it because we can't, we
sort of had swinging things. We've been in the same room with
other couples and swapping. We didn't do that a lot, but you
know, she really enjoyed or liked the soccer coach, our kids
(08:49):
soccer coach. He was younger and and you know,
we'd have lots of bedroom talk about it.
Nothing happened, right? We would just sort of fantasize
about it. And and she said to me one day
we're sitting down at the beach having kind of just a heart to
heart talk about our relationship.
And she said, you know, you sortof seem a bit sad after we, we,
(09:10):
you know, we've been fantasizingabout that.
And, you know, we, she said, we don't have to do that anymore.
That's making you jealous. And it was actually the
opposite. I said, no, no, no, it's, I'm
not sad because it's fantasy. I'm sad because it's not,
doesn't feel like it's going to become reality.
And she was kind of surprised bythat.
And again, we did this heart to heart and, and I said, I really
(09:31):
want you to do this, like pursuethis.
And so that was the first time we sort of had a, a real sort
of, it's more of a, a dynamic. It wasn't really the humiliation
piece, but she was doing something on her own, you know,
And it it turned out better thanexpected for both of her.
That's fantastic. And the other thing that I'm
(09:53):
hearing too in your description is you guys really take your
communication seriously. Like she's concerned about you
having jealous feelings. You're wanting her to have
pleasure. I mean, that's, that's really
good stuff for a healthy relationship, which is why, you
know, I get back to why isn't everybody doing this?
(10:15):
But of course, everybody won't ever do it.
But it's it, it's such rich ground.
If you can find that place whereyou know you both are invested
in it, you both are having fun, you're both stimulated, it's
keeping your relationship fresh and growing all the time.
I think those are such importantthings.
(10:36):
And those are some of the thingsI think go stale in the monogamy
world and why a lot of people choose to pursue something like
this because it's, as I've said many, many, many times, my
favorite psychologist, Esther Perel has said, you know, all
human beings have two core conflicting needs, the need for
(10:59):
safety and security and the needfor change and adventure.
That's hard and that causes a lot of conflict in monogamy.
If the this this way of being consensually non monogamous
really solves both of those issues, do you feel that that's
(11:19):
that that's potentially true foryou?
I mean, I that's how I see it for us, my husband provides the
safety and security and stability that the relationship
needs. You know, I bring the heat.
That's how it works at our house.
Well, Crystal, absolutely right.I mean, I, I think that that
those two needs are probably even more true for women than
men. You know, I mean, if you look at
(11:42):
the research, the it's upwards of 50% of men fantasize about
this, right? And it's a very small number
that do it and it's a smaller number of women who fantasize it
but about it. But I think, I think women, you
know, they may be looking at it from a place of fear and just
not enough understanding about it.
I think men bring it up to womenin a terrible way.
And, you know, the porn and stuff out there is terrible.
(12:05):
So, you know, people just get a,a wrong conception or, or idea
of, of what this can be right? It, it, it can actually be
something quite beautiful and, and, and you know, quite amazing
for all three people involved ormore, depending how you set it
up. If you, if somebody came to you,
let's say you had a patient thatcame to you and was asking your
(12:28):
advice, saying they were conflicted and they wanted their
wife to do this, but they didn'tknow how to bring it up.
Or maybe it's a woman saying, you know, my husband wants me to
do this. I'm not sure about it.
Sounds intriguing. How would you advise them?
Well, I can tell you I would, I would definitely not talk about
this with patients. OK.
So that that would, yeah. That's right.
(12:49):
You're not a you're not a psychologist, so that's not
really your wheelhouse. But but you know what, it is
something that that I mean, you know, I can tell you certainly a
good rich sex life is really important for health, right?
I mean it, it's a huge part of being human.
I think monogamy can work for a lot of people.
(13:10):
I think it doesn't work for a lot of people.
And I think, you know, I would encourage people to, to take a
risk and explore the options. It doesn't mean it's right for
everybody, but, but at least have the conversation, right?
And I, I think there's a lot of people out there who just don't
have the conversation. So they, you know, they either
miss out on something or worse, you know, they, they go have an
(13:31):
affair or something else, right,Which you know, is, is harmful
to a relationship as well. So, you know, there's, there's
huge potential benefits from this.
And, and I can certainly tell you from experience when, when
my wife has a new boyfriend and you know, it's not that often,
right? But like when she has a new
boyfriend and it's sort of hot and heavy in those first few
months, like, you know, will sometimes play around with
(13:54):
denial, but like she's much moreturned on.
She's much happier. There's definitely much more
desire or she'll try to do the the chastity things sometimes
with me, but you know, or denial, but she she always
breaks it before me, you know, so you.
Know that's a terrible problem to have, Absolutely.
You know, so I, I don't know that I could truly do do that.
(14:17):
Well, we tried a little bit, but.
It sounds to me though, that youguys are playful, you're having
fun with it. You, you don't bend it hard and
fast rules. You just experiment with things.
I mean, I think a lot of those things are the key elements, the
key elements to keeping it fresh, keeping it fun, keeping
(14:38):
it alive and just being creativeand supportive of one another.
I think that's it's really just beautiful how you've explained
it. So I appreciate your your story
very much. Like having having that
connection being authentic, you know, if something's not
working, you know, speak up works better.
(15:00):
I found if you know the the female part of the relationship
is determining, you know, who's she gonna meet and that sort of
stuff, right? It it really you gotta let her
her run the show a little bit. With this, I think that's really
key. I mean, 'cause really one of the
core tenants, as I understand itis, and the way that we pursue
(15:23):
this is very much like like you guys do.
This is a it, it should be, it should be a female choice.
I mean, we're not the opposite of that is how it's portrayed in
porn as a fulfillment of a male sexual fantasy.
You know, we're not, we're not kink dispensers.
(15:44):
And when you're, you shouldn't look to your woman to fulfill
your kink, develop the, the conversation and develop the
interest and ask questions and be curious about her and find
out what you can find out there.Because you might be surprised,
you know, if you approach it in that manner, you know, as she's,
you know, you're interested in her having more pleasure or
(16:07):
having more fun or having more interest in her life rather than
fulfilling the male's kink fantasy.
I think if people would approachit more like that, they'd likely
have better results. Do you agree?
Do you agree with me? Yeah, absolutely.
And there's nothing wrong for the people that really like the
(16:27):
humiliation piece. It just didn't work for me and
and our relationship. But you know, because it also
makes it more about the man, right.
But you know, that's what is working for both people.
Then then great. But yeah, I, I think, I think
presenting it in a way of, you know, like I want to expand our
(16:48):
relationship and I'm, I really, I get off on seeing, you know,
you enjoy yourself and you know,I know from like some of the
things you've said, you get off on on wanting to be with
somebody else. So like, let's let's explore
that together, right. I think the safety factor too,
you know, it's a lot harder for women to have their man go off
(17:11):
and be with somebody else. So, you know, making it that one
sided non monogamy really workedfor us.
That was part of the deal to make this, you know, a success
and all. It's like she's got that
security. I'm not going anywhere.
But hey, if she wants to have a really good time with, you know,
a younger guy or somebody with more stamina or whatever, it is
(17:34):
great, right? Like she gets to have a lot of
fun and I get to share in that fun too, right?
It's, it's a pretty erotic thingwatching you're, you know, the
person you love more than anything, getting dressed up for
a date. And you know, you see your head
off and you, you know, she's probably not coming home till
2:00 in the morning and you're counting down those minutes and
(17:56):
you can't sleep and you're extremely aroused, right?
And you know when when she gets home and she starts telling you
all about it and you know it's and you see how routish she is,
It's. Pretty sexy.
Well, I'm so, so happy you took a few minutes to talk to us
because it just from the, the conversations that we've had
(18:21):
online, it just sounded like youhad a wonderful dynamic and
you've, you've found a way to navigate that.
I'll ask you one last question before we end.
Have have you had any big problems or issues that have
come up that you've had to navigate?
And if so, how did you do it? You know, the only thing that's
sort of come up over time, a couple of times actually.
(18:44):
I mean, she's she's an incredible catch and, you know,
very, very beautiful woman. So it, you know, sometimes when
she's been with a bull for six months or something and they do
develop a connection, right? Like that person does start to
fall in love. And you know, then sometimes
we'll get to a point where they say, look, I just want you to
(19:05):
myself, like, you know, like, let's stop all this and let's
just have our relationship together.
You know, that that does become a problem.
It's it's not a for sure thing that it's going to happen with
somebody. But you know, you can see how
how that's a possibility. So, you know, having ways to
navigate around that is going tobe important.
(19:26):
Again, that goes back to the communication, right?
And, and when we've had that happen, like we've usually ended
things with with that bull or boyfriend.
They're not the mean way or anything like that.
But it, you know, it just startsto become a little bit too messy
with that. And it's, it's not that feelings
aren't going to develop. I mean, it's hard for my wife
and somebody to be having sex for six or more months and and
(19:47):
not develop feelings, right? I mean, that's normal.
I think it's. It's not just sex.
Anybody that says it's just sex is probably lying about that.
You know, there's something moreto that, but it if it starts to
become a bit too intense, then that's a problem.
Yeah, Yeah, we, we've been through that too.
And I think what you've just described is the difference
(20:10):
between having a connection and also having a commitment.
You might have a connection witha bull, but my connection, my,
my commitment is to my husband. He, he comes first.
He's the one that's standing at the door at the end of the day.
(20:32):
And it but it is tricky, you know, it's I think it would be
unusual to spend a good amount of time with a bull and not
develop feelings just as you stated.
But it sounds like it sounds like you got.
Well, and, and Crystal, to be honest, both sides, right?
Like we, we were, you know, we, we lived out on the East Coast
and we were driving down, you know, just to point to this
(20:53):
vacation spot. And, and, you know, so we're in
the car for like 5 hours and it's, it's me, her boyfriend at
the time and, and her, and you're just having conversations
in the car and, you know, it's like, it felt almost like this.
It's hard to describe it like this relationship between the
three of us, right? Like he's expressing what he
(21:15):
likes. Actually, he really opened up
and and said that, you know, when, when she would go over to
his place back home, you know, he, he absolutely loved knowing
that she's coming back to me. You know, like there was just
something that boosted his energy about that way.
Like here he's fucking this guy's wife and, you know, really
(21:36):
enjoying it and just knowing what comes after that.
And you know, but having those conversations, the three of us
it, it just made me realize there's, there's it's not like
one and done like a one night standing just doesn't work.
But you, you are building a relationship with another
person, right? You've got your primary
relationship, but you are building this other
relationship. And I, I don't know that enough
(21:57):
of that is really discussed in the cut dynamic.
It still does tend to be more focused on the man as opposed to
what that woman needs and how that relationship develops.
Yes, I you're so right about that.
And I think that my friend Venusand I have talked about this
many, many times. We can't understand why every
(22:18):
woman wouldn't want a cuckold husband.
But you know, we say that jokingly, but but we, the
benefits for us are obvious to us.
And when asked what are the benefits to the man, one way
I've described it is, well, if you have a bull that you have a
relationship with and all three of you get along and you have
(22:40):
that chemistry and you've got good communication.
You know, the benefit to the husband is he gets to sort of
feed on that new relationship, inner energy that that she
brings to the relationship. But also from the bull
standpoint, he has all the pleasure and all the goodies
(23:00):
from the woman and none of the responsibilities, 'cause that's
the husband's. Yeah.
Well, it's, it's a good, I don'tknow.
I mean, it's a good point. I mean, tell you before we have
to go. I mean, we, we had a, we had a,
one of her boyfriends over, I guess a few months ago and, and
we had a weekend to ourselves and, and we're just watching a
(23:21):
movie and hanging out. And you know, you're right.
I mean, it's, it's nice for the woman because, you know, I, I
got some nice dinner stuff. I'm making him dinner.
We're kind of hanging out like he's getting her wine.
And, you know, we kind of get part way through this, this
movie, they're making out. She'll still come over and kiss
me a little bit. And, you know, eventually, like
he just says, you know, can we go to the bedroom?
(23:41):
And I mean, she just, it's quitesexy, right?
Like your wife smiling at you asthey head off to your bedroom
and they're in there for a bit having sex.
And, and, you know, she'd come out just to to check on me.
And, you know, I can see that he's orgasmed in her, right?
Because she climbs on me and she's rubbing a little bit on
top of me. And you know, clearly I'm
covered in him now, right? And.
(24:02):
And. You know, this was kind of quite
sexy and and she says, well, whydon't you finish cleaning up?
And then, you know, she goes back in there, has some more
sex, but we end up having sex the same night.
And it's just, it's, it's reallykinky and fun.
And you, you have such an interesting mix of crazy
emotions with the whole thing, you know, and, and we ended the
(24:26):
night actually because she wanted us both in there and
we're both sort of spooning her and you know, it's kind of sexy,
right? It's, it's, yeah, it's a neat
experience. So I would really encourage,
like your listeners, you know, talk to your spouse and, and, or
your partner and, you know, takea risk with that, but be very
authentic and honesty. Like these are the things I
(24:48):
would like. What do you want?
And, you know, have that very honest, real conversation.
Yeah, absolutely. And also ask what might be in
the way if if there's an interest and there's still
hesitancy, dig deeper into that.Find out what's in the way.
Because together you'd be surprised what you might be able
(25:09):
to discover about each other. And it might take you to an the
exalted place that you just heard from Doctor Aaron here of
where you can be in a, in a longterm marriage that, you know,
many of his peers who were married probably in the same
length of time are kind of staleand kind of bored and kind of
not having sex anymore. And he's like, woo Hoo.
(25:32):
Well, and this, you know, I've not ever had an affair and my
wife hasn't ever had an unconsensual affair.
You know, I can tell you this isa lot more fun than having an
affair and it's a lot more fun than it just, you know, dying
and becoming stale, right? So, you know, it's, it's, it's a
way to make it pretty interesting.
Yeah, absolutely. I just thank you so, so much for
(25:55):
spending some time. I think, I think our listeners
will get a great deal out of what you shared.
Cause what I got out of it was just a whole lot of joy and a
whole lot of communication and awhole lot of love between these
two people. So thank you so much, Doctor
Aaron and we'll, we'll have to check in with you again here in
a while and and maybe have another session.
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