May 11, 2024 • 37 mins
Dr. David Ley's book "Insatiable Wives" is the "bible" of all things cuckolding. Very well researched clear description of cuckoldry through history and into the modern day world. He wanted to chat with me, as years ago when he wrote the book he noted that "Cuckoldry is mostly an interest of men" and how men who want this dynamic far outweigh the women willing to try it! I contacted him, and when I explained that not only did I see the wisdom of it, I advertised for a cuck on CRAIGSLIST, and met my husband there. So it was ON! Don't miss this great episode!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Beyond Monogamy with your host vlogger, podcaster and
speaker Crystal Welch. This show explores how
relationships are changing in the 21st century from consensual
non monogamy to cuckoldry, polyamory, and interracial love.
This is the place to learn everything you wanted to know
about consensual non monogamy. Now, without any further ado,
(00:24):
let's welcome your host, CrystalWelch, and dive head first into
this episode. Hello everybody.
So glad that you are tuning in. I'm super excited to talk to my
guests today. It's been a long journey.
I've been trying to talk to him for a long time and I'll tell
(00:45):
you that story in a minute. But Doctor David Lay is a
clinical psychologist. He's in practice in Albuquerque,
NM, where he overseas a large mental health clinic.
He's been a guest on Anderson Cooper, the Doctor Phil's show.
Numerous radio shows, has written for the London Telegraph
and the New York Post. He he his interviews with this
(01:06):
award-winning author. His stuff has appeared in
Glamour magazine, Salon, Huffington Post.
He's been referenced in Playboy magazine and newspapers and
magazines all around the world. So he's a very prominent guy.
He's also the author of a life changing book for me and I hope
for you, our dear listeners, insatiable wives, Women who
(01:28):
stray. Here it is.
Women who stray and the men thatlove them.
So thank you so, so much Doctor Ley for joining me.
I'm I'm just thrilled to have a chance to talk to you.
Well, thank you for having me. It's it's fun to be here.
So when I first, I'll tell you how I first contacted him just a
minute, a little bit later in the story because it connects
(01:50):
with why insatiable Wise was such a life changing book for
me. But my back story is I grew up
in a very traditional conservative Midwestern family.
I had the dream of the marriage and the kids and the white
picket fence. Got married, had the kid, had
the white picket fence, was married about 15 years, but ten
(02:11):
of the 15, right about the five year mark.
We just completely started living like roommates.
And you know, anything that was romantic or connected was gone.
And from my perspective, it was,it was absolutely the loneliest
time in my life and I was going to try and just stick it out.
But the truth is, I couldn't. I didn't have.
(02:33):
I had all the obligations of a marriage and none of the
benefits. So at the end of the day, I
divorced and I figured that, youknow, when I really started
looking into it, I said is the problem marriage or is the
problem monogamy? If I could have been
consensually non monogamous during that time, I probably
would have stayed married. I wouldn't have busted up this
family. So that's when I started to
(02:57):
really figure out what I wanted.And the next number of years I
traveled around the world, I built a fairly large wealth
management business in the divorce market.
And then I got a really big education on why people divorce
and how many people are impactedby cheating and by, you know,
(03:18):
other things that caused people to to bust up their
relationship. So the first thing that fell
into place for me, I heard the psychologist Esthera Perel talk
about all women and all men havetwo competing needs.
We all have a need for safety inour relationships.
We also have a need for adventure and those those things
(03:40):
are in in conflict. I mean that was exactly my case.
We seem to have a safe enough nest, but I had an extreme need
for adventure and he I don't know where he was.
We were just like roommates. So so that's that started me
thinking in a new way. So what I knew is marriage isn't
necessarily the problem, but monogamy.
(04:02):
Monogamy is a problem for me andI would never again be trapped
into that construct. It's it's just doesn't make any
sense to me at all. So very soon after that, I found
this book right here and all of a sudden all the light bulbs
went off going Ding, Ding, Ding.He is so on everything,
(04:23):
everything that I didn't even know that I didn't know and it
started to validate. And I think that's the biggest
thanks I have for you and I'm sure the many, many people all
over the world that have read it.
The validation of female sexual desire and the fact that
sometimes we want a lot more than what our spouses provide.
(04:46):
And so So my solution was to become a cuckoldress.
I chose it. I when I decided I was ready to
jump back into socializing, I put an ad in Craigslist of all
places. I I wasn't looking for a
husband. I was just looking for some
experience, so I put an ad in Craigslist for a cuckold and who
(05:06):
should arrive but my dear cuckold husband?
So we had a lively discussion, and the truth is, we went to
dinner the next night and we've been together ever since.
And my experience has been this is the most satisfying, the most
pleasurable, the most intimate, the most connected, the best
communication in a relationship that I've ever had.
(05:30):
And I just can't promote it enough.
Now, I'm not saying that this isthe right way for everybody.
I never say that, but it was it's been a golden, golden
opportunity for us and and we'redown the road 8 years now.
So that's kind of how we got started.
And I had. I was compelled to reach out to
(05:51):
Doctor Ley after reading the book, and I thought it was a
huge long shot. But I popped him a little e-mail
and I said, look, you know, I'm,I'm that woman that you wrote
about in that book. I would love a chance.
Yeah. And I would, I would love a
chance to talk to you. And I never imagined that he
would respond to me. And this guy's famous.
(06:12):
He's busy, you know, And lo and behold, a week or two later I
get an e-mail back and he goes, sure, I'd be happy to do that.
You know, it's probably going tobe later in the year 'cause this
was early, early in 2021, so I got back in touch with him this
fall and here we are today. So I am just hugely grateful to
(06:33):
you for the work that you've done and and how it's enriched
our my personally, my understanding of my own
sexuality even more. And it's so validating for the
cuckold relationship. And for that I'm grateful.
For as you know, shame is one ofthe biggest things that keeps
people from even thinking about this.
(06:55):
And so I want to ask you, first of all, I have, I have a
question that came up right away.
What inspired you to originally do all this research, 'cause
this is a research heavy work and it's really impressive, but
what inspired you? What was in you that said I need
to do this? I let me say back in like 2007,
(07:21):
2008, I was actually clinically depressed.
I was, I run, as you mentioned, I run a large behavioral health
agency, you know, Medicaid nonprofit.
And I was just dealing with, youknow, every stressful thing in
the world, human resources issues, budget issues, state
bureaucrats and every other damnthing.
(07:41):
And and I needed something to kind of sink my teeth into that
you know frankly you know kind of petty bureaucrats couldn't
ruin for me and I I've always worked in sexuality as as a
clinician. You know my my agency is general
mental health but my specialty has always been sexuality issues
(08:02):
and so I particularly with the last name lay right I I I really
only had the option of being a sex doctor.
So I I started collecting data for a study that on non monogamy
and this was, you know, obviously this was you know 15
(08:25):
years ago before much of the modern surge of research on
consensual non monogamy. At the time it was still it was
starting to come out of the closet, but it was still pretty
stigmatized. And so I I thought, well OK, you
know I'm looking for a project. I can I can maybe do a do a do a
little research study and I never published the information
(08:47):
I got out of that. It was kind of a crappy little
study honestly. But but in the course of it I
encountered these couples that live the the cuckolding on the
hot wife lifestyle. And here's The funny thing is
that initially my clinical reaction was that's fucking
crazy that that there's no way that could be healthy.
(09:11):
And and then I I was forced to recognize that that judgment was
coming out of morality that had intruded into my clinical
thinking without really me noticing.
Even though I had been working around sexuality and alternative
sexuality for many years that you know, issues around female
(09:34):
sexuality, promiscuity, monogamy, things like that, they
kind of snuck in to my clinical thinking.
And the the fascinating thing was that the these first two
couples that I encountered, theywere remarkably successful.
They had extremely high profile careers, healthy marriages,
(10:01):
successful families and and, andand it was funny because I
realized, you know by every clinical benchmark, these were
extremely healthy people they had and and and and I said in
the book as I worked with these folks that they had some of the
most remarkable communication skills I've ever seen.
But I was and and I and I realized that, well, you know,
(10:23):
wait a minute then. Then what if these people aren't
healthy, What is healthy? And it LED me down this path
where I I said, well, you know, there there's nothing in the
literature. I looked.
There was in the clinical or academic literature.
There was one article published in the 1990s by an Israeli
psychologist who did an analysisof penthouse letters to
(10:48):
penthouse wife sharing letters. That was the only thing I could
find about this. And I said, well, huh, maybe I
should write a book. Remember, I'm depressed and I'm
looking for a project. So I traveled a lot for business
at the time and so I'd post ads on Craigslist.
It's it's funny that you met your partner through Craigslist
(11:10):
and and and also a little sad that that that's gone, you know
that personal's ads are gone. But 'cause that's where so many
cuckold folks exploring that relationship and and I would.
I'd post ads for for for folks looking looking to interview
them and they thought that I waslooking to have sex with the
wives and they would send me pictures of the wives and I'd
(11:32):
say thank you very much she's lovely.
But I really just want to talk to you and and and and I
started, you know, I dove into the literature around female
sexuality, around monogamy, the history of of of non monogamy,
particularly for wives and everything else.
And 'cause I was just, I was on this journey just trying to
(11:54):
understand this and and at the end of it I came out, you know,
saying, you know, I I think thatthat this can be, this can be as
healthy as any other relationship.
And for the right people, this can actually be remarkably, you
know, healthy and affirmative accepting all these aspects of
(12:19):
themselves. And that the really neat thing
is it kicked me off this this journey, this this whole new
career path where I I spend a lot of time now trying to help
other clinicians and our field, the field of mental health and
behavioral health at large to not do what I did which was
(12:40):
stigmatize based on ignorance and sexual morality.
And it's it's become a big passion of mine and it all
started with with this book and and these interviews.
Wow. That's that's you said something
really key. You mentioned the role of
(13:00):
religion and I've been noticing and I think it's it's true.
You're probably, so far as I know, you're the only voice out
there that is speaking to clinicians because they too come
with judgement. I mean it's hard enough for us
out here in the real world, but but I've noticed that there's a
sort of a wholesale rejection ofreligion these days.
A lot of people are stepping away from religion.
(13:22):
Do you think that that is that that phenomena will lead to more
people being open to CNN or consensual non monogamy?
I definitely think that that is one of the one of the trends
that you know the the Internet has is is kind of Pandora's box.
(13:47):
You can't. You can't close it once it once
it's opened. And the Internet has allowed
people in little podunk towns around the world to connect to
the to other people around the world and find out that they're
not the only one with this unique kind of sexual interest.
(14:09):
And that it turns out they're they're not even one of of of
millions. That there, that there are many,
many people out there who share that sexual interest.
Even if they have been told by their family or by their pastor
or by their teachers that there's something wrong with
them for having this sexual desire.
And that they, you know, they jump on the Internet and are
(14:33):
able to instantly find, you know, online groups and porn
about this and stories about this and and you know,
matchmaker hookup sites dedicated to to this their
specific issue, whatever it is. And that is something so, you
know, affirming to and validating to find out you're
(14:54):
not the only one and particularly, you know, highly
religious communities are really, they're struggling with
this because you know, let's take Utah for instance, and you
know, Churchill Latter Day Saints, they they are really,
(15:17):
really struggling with the Internet and pornography in
particular because it it breaks down a lot of these ideas that
there's only one right kind of sexuality and it is heterosexual
monogamy. Interestingly, people in Utah
consume more porn than most other places in the in the
(15:41):
country. And so that suppression leads to
like leads to this hydraulic kind of model of that passion,
that interest squirting out the other side.
Now along that line, what's interesting is that as people
use the Internet for sexual purposes, they become less
religious and they become more accepting of sexual diversity.
(16:05):
And that, I think, is one reasonwhy people are kind of leaving
some of the religious traditionsthat are more sexually
conservative. I call it the lightning didn't
strike phenomenon. When you know they they jump
online and they and they maybe masturbate to porn or fantasy of
of this thing that they were told they should be ashamed of
and then nothing bad happens andso they do it again and nothing
(16:27):
bad happens and so then over time they become more accepting
of that sexual desire in them self.
They become a little more willing to maybe pursue
exploring that sexual desire andand then they start questioning
some of the other things that they were told and their
conservative, you know, family or church and they start falling
(16:50):
away. Now the the sad thing is that
that's also what is driving, I think some of the religious
communities now becoming more and more angry and desperate and
polarized around these issues because they feel under attack.
(17:12):
But I, I, I, I think that you know what we're seeing.
You know, and it you know I followed the the Jerry Falwell
junior debacle with with great interest.
You know Jerry Falwell junior son of the famous minister
running Liberty College. You know the Christian
institution And then these you know the the scandal comes out
(17:35):
you know page after page after page involving, you know him
sharing his wife with the pool boy.
I mean, my God, the pool boy andsitting in a chair next to the
bed watching his wife have sex with the pool boy.
And it was and and yet he had grown up highly religious,
highly conservative. And this was, this was the most
shameful thing that you know that that that he could pursue,
(17:59):
which made it all the more hot for him.
It made it all the more taboo and desirous for him.
And that produced. More shame, too.
More shame for him just. That's right.
And his wife that was that was kind of the sad thing with that
scandal was that the they they they kind of threw the wife
under the bus and and stigmatizing shaming the wife,
(18:19):
which unfortunately happens a lot around this.
And I I think it's I think it's a sad thing but it was just so
typical because actually you know the research that we've
done now over the past few yearsfinds that cuckolding is more
popular and more conservative more stereotypically masculine
(18:40):
cultures. Italy has the the highest number
of Internet searches for cuckolding of any place in the
world. Wow.
Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
But I think America really has been steeped in sort of those
Christian values for so long. There's still so much stigma and
(19:02):
so much shame here. And so that's one of the hills
that we have to climb. And when I get into any of those
discussions today, I recommend your book because having that
historical perspective is just golden.
It says, you know, we haven't all always been monogamous.
It's not even natural for a lot of cultures around the world and
(19:23):
this slow, laborious process of destigmatizing, which I don't
think will be quick or easy. But we all want it, of course.
And and I think your book just pushes that, that issue along
down that path, which I'm, I know I'm grateful for.
I'm glad that came through. I mean, I I'm not a historian by
trade, but but I'm fascinated byhistory and and and and I
(19:48):
included, you know, a chapter about the very, very long
history of of of cuckolding and and wife sharing because I
wanted people to see, you know, this this ain't new.
It's been around a long time. It's the only thing that's new
is people talking more openly about it.
Yeah. So that leads to the next
question. What do you think in your
(20:10):
opinion, will be the catalyst toget more people talking about
it? One of the things that I
recognized, especially after I read the book, you know, having
been in the divorce market for so many years and well aware of
the fact that even happy people cheat, you know, happy people
cheat. And so what's that all about?
(20:31):
And so how do we take this? And I'm not saying that
cuckoldery or any form of C&M is, is the solution to marital
woes. It is not.
It is not. But what will it take for more
people to be open minded and look at this?
You know, and I always look at it from the perspective if I
(20:54):
could help one couple not cheat or divorce because they
recognize that they both have both of these needs and they
have to find some way, might notbe this way, but they have to
find some way to address that. So what will it take?
What will it take for this to become more accepted and less
shameful? Crystal, I think you're doing it
right now. This this is what changes it.
(21:18):
The it's a fascinating thing in in between 2010 and 2015, our
country went through the greatest shift in social values
in recorded human history. In 2010, a majority of our
country believed United States are to be and egocentric.
(21:39):
Here in 2010, a majority of the United States believed that gay
marriage was wrong. In 2015, though, just five years
later, a majority of our countrybelieved that gay marriage was
right. What changed over that period
was that we had across the country.
We had and across the world, actually.
I mean, there's a worldwide phenomenon.
(22:00):
We had people coming out as gay in the news, in TV shows, to
their neighbors, to their familyand it forced people to realize
that the sexual stigma around homosexuality was based on
ignorance and and and and secrecy and that as we broke
(22:20):
down that secrecy, as people started coming out it, it
confronted those assumptions. The same thing is happening now
with with with non monogamy which is definitely experiencing
a big revolutionary you know kind of surge at this time and
different flavors of non monogamy and cuckolding is is
(22:44):
definitely one of them there it has been over the past five or
ten years every year cuckolding or you know milfs or hot wife
whatever kind of terms you want to use is consistently some of
the most popular pornography on on the Internet pornhub,
etcetera. Justin Laymiller, A
(23:08):
psychologist, a very good friendof mine, has a lovely book
called Tell Me What You Want about his research into sexual
fantasy. And he finds that around 45% of
men report a sexual fantasy of watching their wife or
girlfriend have sex with other men.
And now it is becoming more acceptable to acknowledge that
(23:32):
fantasy and to potentially explore it.
But just to acknowledge this fantasy alone is is
revolutionary. 90 to 95% of people never share their sexual
fantasy with anybody, not their partner, not their therapist,
because they're afraid they're going to be judged.
(23:52):
But what's happening now is thatand and partially this is the
Internet, partially this is pornography, partially this is
socially changing values, accepting sexual diversity.
It is becoming more and more acceptable for people to have,
quote UN quote, deviant or kinkysex fantasies.
There's this researcher named Christian Joel in Quebec,
(24:16):
Canada, who he researched the prevalence of sexual fantasies,
particularly sexual fantasies that historically the mental
health field has viewed as deviant and unhealthy.
And he found that 50% of people have a sexual fantasy that we
(24:37):
have typically regarded as deviant or unhealthy, and 30% of
them have engaged in it. And interestingly, interest in
sexual submission or masochism was correlated positively with
with life satisfaction. So what we're finding out is
that the only reason we thought these deviant sexual fantasies
(24:58):
were deviant or rare was becausepeople didn't talk about them,
and they didn't talk about them because we would shame them.
Now we're finding out that kinkysexual fantasies, whatever
flavor, are actually the norm, right?
And now it's becoming more, moresafe to express them.
(25:18):
Yeah. And just a little bit less
shameful so that, you know that's go ahead.
Podcasts like this Crystal that they're that you're doing.
I mean, this is how this is how the stigma breaks down and this
is how people become more, more able to express, you know, this,
(25:38):
this, this, this secret, shameful sex fantasy.
So, you know, I'm excited to to mention that at the end of
January 2022, January 25th through the 31st is the 1st
annual Cuck Week where the IT itis, It is going to start off on
(26:00):
Twitter and going into Facebook.There's going to be, you know,
kind of online events every night with people talking about
the positive experiences that they have had with cuckolding.
And it is intended to break downand really challenge that shame
and secrecy around this. It is.
(26:24):
It's coinciding with the releaseof my book Insatiable Wives Now
on audio book and read by the sexy librarian herself, Rose
Caraway, who just has one of thebest sexy voices I've ever
heard. I I didn't think anybody could
ever read this book but her, andI'm glad that she did.
And so we're we're doing this week as a as a way to invite
(26:46):
people who have had this desire or have had this as part of
their lifestyle to maybe come out publicly and talk about it
because that that stigma. And I know you, you said you've
experienced some of this shame and attack around this.
What's that been like for you? Well, so when I started, I've
(27:09):
only been even writing about this.
I mean, I'm not a big, you know,thousand podcast podcast.
I'm just starting. I just started early earlier
last year just writing about my own experience of the joy and
the connectedness and the intimacy of cuckolding and what
it's done for my husband and myself.
(27:30):
Because again, I come from that working in the divorce market
like how many other people couldthat benefit?
And so I started just sharing myexperience.
Then all of a sudden mostly cuckold males or wannabe cuckold
males started bombarding me withquestions and comments And and I
(27:52):
thought, holy cow, there actually is interest in this out
there because I didn't know. You know, I was just sharing my
experience and I'm not trying todo anything with it necessarily.
I just thought maybe it would help somebody.
But I'm I'm just astounded now at how many people are just like
please tell me more, please, howdoes this work?
How do we do that? How do we solve that problem?
(28:13):
And I think that's a wonderful thing because that's where it
starts. You know, I see the, the work
that I do is really an entry point.
I'm not for the experienced cut couple.
That's not the market that I write into.
I just write for people that might be looking for an entry
point to a new possibility. And so that's that's who I write
(28:34):
for. But I've been very shocked.
But I do get I have gotten some from, you know, mostly from
heterosexual straight men who say things like I one guy said
if I ever wanted to watch my wife with someone, I would throw
(28:58):
myself off the roof. And he started that way.
And it was so poignantly, he wasso critical and so it was just,
it was terrible. And in many cases, if people are
just trolling, I won't respond. But in this case, because this
(29:19):
guy was sincerely, even though he was negative, he was
sincerely trying to understand it.
So I had my husband actually write the response to that and
it was beautiful because he got to tell from his own experience
this is what I get out of it. I wouldn't trade it for
1,000,000 bucks and I'm so much I'm so much happier in my
(29:39):
relationship. We have such good communication
and and so he I thought that wasthe best way to address that but
again I'm looking for the personwho's sincerely curious and
maybe looking for an on ramp somewhere or just to find out
more information at least. But yeah, I get, I get, I get a
lot more positive than negative,'cause I I've written a little
(30:00):
bit more now, but but I think you're right, exposure is the
key the more people. It is, I mean.
Who can write into the space? Yeah, yeah.
A couple of years ago, Justin Laymiller that I mentioned, he
and I, along with advice columnist Dan Savage, conducted
research around cuckolding, particularly within the gay
(30:22):
community. And it was fascinating.
CNN picked up the story of of the research and interviewed us
and published this article on CNN talking about how cuckolding
could be positive for some couples.
And Fox News lost its mind because the conservative you
(30:44):
know Republicans that was that was at the time when they were
calling everybody cuck if they weren't you know true enough to
the Republican ideals and and here we are saying turns out
being cuckolding you know being a cuckold could be healthy.
And the the the amazing thing was that it got all this
(31:07):
coverage right. And then I had these
conservatives within that community writing me on the side
and saying Oh my God, I'm so into this and I've had to keep
it secret because of all of the other all of the shame.
And one one person even pointed out to me that if you Google
(31:30):
cuckolding Republican National Convention that these videos pop
up of folks that are that are Republicans going to the RNC and
doing cuckolding on the side while they're there.
And it was just it's so hysterical to me.
But that's The thing is that that that coverage led to all
(31:54):
this outcry and yet some people started reaching out just like
you experienced saying I've always had this desire.
I didn't. I thought I was the only one.
Right, right. Yeah.
That exposure is everything. So it's incredibly important.
And and there are a few, a few people that are really in this
(32:15):
space now, which I'm grateful for and especially grateful to
you because you are the first. This work that you've done here,
in my opinion is the first, it'sbecause you're a professional.
This is your field. You've done the hard research.
You back it up with, you know, hard statistics.
It's always good to have a clinician on your side because
(32:39):
you can say you're not a weirdo and I'm not a weirdo.
We have this thing, and in our case, it's been beautiful.
It's a beautiful thing, and I would want you to have that too.
May not be this way, but you know, at the end of the day, how
will you reconcile your competing needs for safety and
adventure in your relationship? These are just some ideas, but
(33:01):
take on that issue because that might allow you to uncover your
way, whatever your way will be. You know it what you said a
little while ago about when you read, when you read the book and
and and you were like, oh wait, I maybe there's nothing wrong
with me for for being this way. I, you know, it brings joy to my
(33:23):
heart because that that that wasmy intent.
And that's also one of the things that I've heard, you
know, just countless times sinceI wrote the book.
I mean, a month to go by, I don't get an e-mail from
somebody out of the blue saying,you know, Oh my God, I I had
that experience. And the the most touching thing
for me has been women like yourself who had, you know,
(33:48):
integrated a whole lot of sexualshame and stigma around their
female sexuality and and their their identity, their being who
read, you know, read that book and experienced some freedom and
rebirth out of it. And I just, there's nothing,
there's nothing a writer could want more.
There's nothing that a therapistlike me could want more than to
(34:11):
have people accept themself after after reading my book.
So I you know you you've given me a gift and and thank you for
that. Well, on behalf of all the
millions and billions of women in the world who are still
persecuted and maimed and killedfor expressing their sexuality,
and particularly those of us in the cuckold community, I just
(34:34):
can't thank you enough. You know you've given us a tool
that that it just has incalculable value and and we're
so appreciative to you. So I think that's we're going to
wrap that up for today unless you have anything else that
you'd like to share. Doctor Lei.
No, I just I, you know, invite folks to if they haven't checked
(34:57):
out the book, you know, listen to it on audio.
It's it's it's a it's a fabulousread.
I have this fantasy of of, you know, wannabe, cuckold or hot
wife couples, you know, going ona road trip and listening to the
listening to my book as they start to think about exploring
this lifestyle. You can follow Cuck Week on
(35:19):
Twitter and Facebook. It's going to have the the
hashtag Cuck Week. Folks who want to find me can
find me at at davidleighphd.com or on Twitter, which is where a
lot of people connect with me atDoctor David Leigh.
And I can't recommend that. I was just going to say you, you
triggered another memory here years before I found your book.
(35:43):
You know, I was looking for a way to not feel weird about, you
know, what we embraced and the fact that we now have a tool
that sort of validates all of our experience.
I mean, how valuable is that? It's it's just golden.
So and and I often, you know, long before I knew that you had
the book, I would tell people a good place to start is read some
(36:05):
things, watch some things other than porn, read some things.
And now I point them to your book saying read this specific
thing and then come and then come with your questions and you
know, and then you have, you know, you have some context.
And I think that's what's been missing.
So there's no way to thank you enough.
That's the truth. Thank you for doing what you're
(36:26):
doing and and reaching out and touching all those lives.
It it, it makes the world a better place.
Well, we're going to be singing your praises far and wide for,
well, probably as long as we're here.
I would think 'cause it's, it's really important, this thing
that you've done. So again, thank you so sincerely
Dr. Lay for spending a bit of time with me, and thank you for
(36:48):
reaching back when I reached out.
Happy to. You take care of yourself.
Happy New Year and Happy Cuck Week at the end of January.
Yeah, for you too. See you later.
Thank you for tuning in. You can access Crystal's latest
blog and podcast at C Welch Polyon Medium and find her on
(37:09):
Twitter at Crystal Welch 99. Your questions and comments are
always welcome. Also, if you're enjoying the
show, please feel free to rate, subscribe, or leave a review
wherever you listen to your podcasts.
We appreciate it and we'll catchyou in the next episode.
Welcome to Beyond Monogamy with your host vlogger, podcaster and
speaker Crystal Welch. This show explores how
relationships are changing in the 21st century from consensual
non monogamy to cuckoldry, polyamory, and interracial love.
This is the place to learn everything you wanted to know
about consensual non monogamy. Now, without any further ado,
(00:24):
let's welcome your host, CrystalWelch, and dive head first into
this episode. Hello everybody.
So glad that you are tuning in. I'm super excited to talk to my
guests today. It's been a long journey.
I've been trying to talk to him for a long time and I'll tell
(00:45):
you that story in a minute. But Doctor David Lay is a
clinical psychologist. He's in practice in Albuquerque,
NM, where he overseas a large mental health clinic.
He's been a guest on Anderson Cooper, the Doctor Phil's show.
Numerous radio shows, has written for the London Telegraph
and the New York Post. He he his interviews with this
(01:06):
award-winning author. His stuff has appeared in
Glamour magazine, Salon, Huffington Post.
He's been referenced in Playboy magazine and newspapers and
magazines all around the world. So he's a very prominent guy.
He's also the author of a life changing book for me and I hope
for you, our dear listeners, insatiable wives, Women who
(01:28):
stray. Here it is.
Women who stray and the men thatlove them.
So thank you so, so much Doctor Ley for joining me.
I'm I'm just thrilled to have a chance to talk to you.
Well, thank you for having me. It's it's fun to be here.
So when I first, I'll tell you how I first contacted him just a
minute, a little bit later in the story because it connects
(01:50):
with why insatiable Wise was such a life changing book for
me. But my back story is I grew up
in a very traditional conservative Midwestern family.
I had the dream of the marriage and the kids and the white
picket fence. Got married, had the kid, had
the white picket fence, was married about 15 years, but ten
(02:11):
of the 15, right about the five year mark.
We just completely started living like roommates.
And you know, anything that was romantic or connected was gone.
And from my perspective, it was,it was absolutely the loneliest
time in my life and I was going to try and just stick it out.
But the truth is, I couldn't. I didn't have.
(02:33):
I had all the obligations of a marriage and none of the
benefits. So at the end of the day, I
divorced and I figured that, youknow, when I really started
looking into it, I said is the problem marriage or is the
problem monogamy? If I could have been
consensually non monogamous during that time, I probably
would have stayed married. I wouldn't have busted up this
family. So that's when I started to
(02:57):
really figure out what I wanted.And the next number of years I
traveled around the world, I built a fairly large wealth
management business in the divorce market.
And then I got a really big education on why people divorce
and how many people are impactedby cheating and by, you know,
(03:18):
other things that caused people to to bust up their
relationship. So the first thing that fell
into place for me, I heard the psychologist Esthera Perel talk
about all women and all men havetwo competing needs.
We all have a need for safety inour relationships.
We also have a need for adventure and those those things
(03:40):
are in in conflict. I mean that was exactly my case.
We seem to have a safe enough nest, but I had an extreme need
for adventure and he I don't know where he was.
We were just like roommates. So so that's that started me
thinking in a new way. So what I knew is marriage isn't
necessarily the problem, but monogamy.
(04:02):
Monogamy is a problem for me andI would never again be trapped
into that construct. It's it's just doesn't make any
sense to me at all. So very soon after that, I found
this book right here and all of a sudden all the light bulbs
went off going Ding, Ding, Ding.He is so on everything,
(04:23):
everything that I didn't even know that I didn't know and it
started to validate. And I think that's the biggest
thanks I have for you and I'm sure the many, many people all
over the world that have read it.
The validation of female sexual desire and the fact that
sometimes we want a lot more than what our spouses provide.
(04:46):
And so So my solution was to become a cuckoldress.
I chose it. I when I decided I was ready to
jump back into socializing, I put an ad in Craigslist of all
places. I I wasn't looking for a
husband. I was just looking for some
experience, so I put an ad in Craigslist for a cuckold and who
(05:06):
should arrive but my dear cuckold husband?
So we had a lively discussion, and the truth is, we went to
dinner the next night and we've been together ever since.
And my experience has been this is the most satisfying, the most
pleasurable, the most intimate, the most connected, the best
communication in a relationship that I've ever had.
(05:30):
And I just can't promote it enough.
Now, I'm not saying that this isthe right way for everybody.
I never say that, but it was it's been a golden, golden
opportunity for us and and we'redown the road 8 years now.
So that's kind of how we got started.
And I had. I was compelled to reach out to
(05:51):
Doctor Ley after reading the book, and I thought it was a
huge long shot. But I popped him a little e-mail
and I said, look, you know, I'm,I'm that woman that you wrote
about in that book. I would love a chance.
Yeah. And I would, I would love a
chance to talk to you. And I never imagined that he
would respond to me. And this guy's famous.
(06:12):
He's busy, you know, And lo and behold, a week or two later I
get an e-mail back and he goes, sure, I'd be happy to do that.
You know, it's probably going tobe later in the year 'cause this
was early, early in 2021, so I got back in touch with him this
fall and here we are today. So I am just hugely grateful to
(06:33):
you for the work that you've done and and how it's enriched
our my personally, my understanding of my own
sexuality even more. And it's so validating for the
cuckold relationship. And for that I'm grateful.
For as you know, shame is one ofthe biggest things that keeps
people from even thinking about this.
(06:55):
And so I want to ask you, first of all, I have, I have a
question that came up right away.
What inspired you to originally do all this research, 'cause
this is a research heavy work and it's really impressive, but
what inspired you? What was in you that said I need
to do this? I let me say back in like 2007,
(07:21):
2008, I was actually clinically depressed.
I was, I run, as you mentioned, I run a large behavioral health
agency, you know, Medicaid nonprofit.
And I was just dealing with, youknow, every stressful thing in
the world, human resources issues, budget issues, state
bureaucrats and every other damnthing.
(07:41):
And and I needed something to kind of sink my teeth into that
you know frankly you know kind of petty bureaucrats couldn't
ruin for me and I I've always worked in sexuality as as a
clinician. You know my my agency is general
mental health but my specialty has always been sexuality issues
(08:02):
and so I particularly with the last name lay right I I I really
only had the option of being a sex doctor.
So I I started collecting data for a study that on non monogamy
and this was, you know, obviously this was you know 15
(08:25):
years ago before much of the modern surge of research on
consensual non monogamy. At the time it was still it was
starting to come out of the closet, but it was still pretty
stigmatized. And so I I thought, well OK, you
know I'm looking for a project. I can I can maybe do a do a do a
little research study and I never published the information
(08:47):
I got out of that. It was kind of a crappy little
study honestly. But but in the course of it I
encountered these couples that live the the cuckolding on the
hot wife lifestyle. And here's The funny thing is
that initially my clinical reaction was that's fucking
crazy that that there's no way that could be healthy.
(09:11):
And and then I I was forced to recognize that that judgment was
coming out of morality that had intruded into my clinical
thinking without really me noticing.
Even though I had been working around sexuality and alternative
sexuality for many years that you know, issues around female
(09:34):
sexuality, promiscuity, monogamy, things like that, they
kind of snuck in to my clinical thinking.
And the the fascinating thing was that the these first two
couples that I encountered, theywere remarkably successful.
They had extremely high profile careers, healthy marriages,
(10:01):
successful families and and, andand it was funny because I
realized, you know by every clinical benchmark, these were
extremely healthy people they had and and and and I said in
the book as I worked with these folks that they had some of the
most remarkable communication skills I've ever seen.
But I was and and I and I realized that, well, you know,
(10:23):
wait a minute then. Then what if these people aren't
healthy, What is healthy? And it LED me down this path
where I I said, well, you know, there there's nothing in the
literature. I looked.
There was in the clinical or academic literature.
There was one article published in the 1990s by an Israeli
psychologist who did an analysisof penthouse letters to
(10:48):
penthouse wife sharing letters. That was the only thing I could
find about this. And I said, well, huh, maybe I
should write a book. Remember, I'm depressed and I'm
looking for a project. So I traveled a lot for business
at the time and so I'd post ads on Craigslist.
It's it's funny that you met your partner through Craigslist
(11:10):
and and and also a little sad that that that's gone, you know
that personal's ads are gone. But 'cause that's where so many
cuckold folks exploring that relationship and and I would.
I'd post ads for for for folks looking looking to interview
them and they thought that I waslooking to have sex with the
wives and they would send me pictures of the wives and I'd
(11:32):
say thank you very much she's lovely.
But I really just want to talk to you and and and and I
started, you know, I dove into the literature around female
sexuality, around monogamy, the history of of of non monogamy,
particularly for wives and everything else.
And 'cause I was just, I was on this journey just trying to
(11:54):
understand this and and at the end of it I came out, you know,
saying, you know, I I think thatthat this can be, this can be as
healthy as any other relationship.
And for the right people, this can actually be remarkably, you
know, healthy and affirmative accepting all these aspects of
(12:19):
themselves. And that the really neat thing
is it kicked me off this this journey, this this whole new
career path where I I spend a lot of time now trying to help
other clinicians and our field, the field of mental health and
behavioral health at large to not do what I did which was
(12:40):
stigmatize based on ignorance and sexual morality.
And it's it's become a big passion of mine and it all
started with with this book and and these interviews.
Wow. That's that's you said something
really key. You mentioned the role of
(13:00):
religion and I've been noticing and I think it's it's true.
You're probably, so far as I know, you're the only voice out
there that is speaking to clinicians because they too come
with judgement. I mean it's hard enough for us
out here in the real world, but but I've noticed that there's a
sort of a wholesale rejection ofreligion these days.
A lot of people are stepping away from religion.
(13:22):
Do you think that that is that that phenomena will lead to more
people being open to CNN or consensual non monogamy?
I definitely think that that is one of the one of the trends
that you know the the Internet has is is kind of Pandora's box.
(13:47):
You can't. You can't close it once it once
it's opened. And the Internet has allowed
people in little podunk towns around the world to connect to
the to other people around the world and find out that they're
not the only one with this unique kind of sexual interest.
(14:09):
And that it turns out they're they're not even one of of of
millions. That there, that there are many,
many people out there who share that sexual interest.
Even if they have been told by their family or by their pastor
or by their teachers that there's something wrong with
them for having this sexual desire.
And that they, you know, they jump on the Internet and are
(14:33):
able to instantly find, you know, online groups and porn
about this and stories about this and and you know,
matchmaker hookup sites dedicated to to this their
specific issue, whatever it is. And that is something so, you
know, affirming to and validating to find out you're
(14:54):
not the only one and particularly, you know, highly
religious communities are really, they're struggling with
this because you know, let's take Utah for instance, and you
know, Churchill Latter Day Saints, they they are really,
(15:17):
really struggling with the Internet and pornography in
particular because it it breaks down a lot of these ideas that
there's only one right kind of sexuality and it is heterosexual
monogamy. Interestingly, people in Utah
consume more porn than most other places in the in the
(15:41):
country. And so that suppression leads to
like leads to this hydraulic kind of model of that passion,
that interest squirting out the other side.
Now along that line, what's interesting is that as people
use the Internet for sexual purposes, they become less
religious and they become more accepting of sexual diversity.
(16:05):
And that, I think, is one reasonwhy people are kind of leaving
some of the religious traditionsthat are more sexually
conservative. I call it the lightning didn't
strike phenomenon. When you know they they jump
online and they and they maybe masturbate to porn or fantasy of
of this thing that they were told they should be ashamed of
and then nothing bad happens andso they do it again and nothing
(16:27):
bad happens and so then over time they become more accepting
of that sexual desire in them self.
They become a little more willing to maybe pursue
exploring that sexual desire andand then they start questioning
some of the other things that they were told and their
conservative, you know, family or church and they start falling
(16:50):
away. Now the the sad thing is that
that's also what is driving, I think some of the religious
communities now becoming more and more angry and desperate and
polarized around these issues because they feel under attack.
(17:12):
But I, I, I, I think that you know what we're seeing.
You know, and it you know I followed the the Jerry Falwell
junior debacle with with great interest.
You know Jerry Falwell junior son of the famous minister
running Liberty College. You know the Christian
institution And then these you know the the scandal comes out
(17:35):
you know page after page after page involving, you know him
sharing his wife with the pool boy.
I mean, my God, the pool boy andsitting in a chair next to the
bed watching his wife have sex with the pool boy.
And it was and and yet he had grown up highly religious,
highly conservative. And this was, this was the most
shameful thing that you know that that that he could pursue,
(17:59):
which made it all the more hot for him.
It made it all the more taboo and desirous for him.
And that produced. More shame, too.
More shame for him just. That's right.
And his wife that was that was kind of the sad thing with that
scandal was that the they they they kind of threw the wife
under the bus and and stigmatizing shaming the wife,
(18:19):
which unfortunately happens a lot around this.
And I I think it's I think it's a sad thing but it was just so
typical because actually you know the research that we've
done now over the past few yearsfinds that cuckolding is more
popular and more conservative more stereotypically masculine
(18:40):
cultures. Italy has the the highest number
of Internet searches for cuckolding of any place in the
world. Wow.
Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
But I think America really has been steeped in sort of those
Christian values for so long. There's still so much stigma and
(19:02):
so much shame here. And so that's one of the hills
that we have to climb. And when I get into any of those
discussions today, I recommend your book because having that
historical perspective is just golden.
It says, you know, we haven't all always been monogamous.
It's not even natural for a lot of cultures around the world and
(19:23):
this slow, laborious process of destigmatizing, which I don't
think will be quick or easy. But we all want it, of course.
And and I think your book just pushes that, that issue along
down that path, which I'm, I know I'm grateful for.
I'm glad that came through. I mean, I I'm not a historian by
trade, but but I'm fascinated byhistory and and and and I
(19:48):
included, you know, a chapter about the very, very long
history of of of cuckolding and and wife sharing because I
wanted people to see, you know, this this ain't new.
It's been around a long time. It's the only thing that's new
is people talking more openly about it.
Yeah. So that leads to the next
question. What do you think in your
(20:10):
opinion, will be the catalyst toget more people talking about
it? One of the things that I
recognized, especially after I read the book, you know, having
been in the divorce market for so many years and well aware of
the fact that even happy people cheat, you know, happy people
cheat. And so what's that all about?
(20:31):
And so how do we take this? And I'm not saying that
cuckoldery or any form of C&M is, is the solution to marital
woes. It is not.
It is not. But what will it take for more
people to be open minded and look at this?
You know, and I always look at it from the perspective if I
(20:54):
could help one couple not cheat or divorce because they
recognize that they both have both of these needs and they
have to find some way, might notbe this way, but they have to
find some way to address that. So what will it take?
What will it take for this to become more accepted and less
shameful? Crystal, I think you're doing it
right now. This this is what changes it.
(21:18):
The it's a fascinating thing in in between 2010 and 2015, our
country went through the greatest shift in social values
in recorded human history. In 2010, a majority of our
country believed United States are to be and egocentric.
(21:39):
Here in 2010, a majority of the United States believed that gay
marriage was wrong. In 2015, though, just five years
later, a majority of our countrybelieved that gay marriage was
right. What changed over that period
was that we had across the country.
We had and across the world, actually.
I mean, there's a worldwide phenomenon.
(22:00):
We had people coming out as gay in the news, in TV shows, to
their neighbors, to their familyand it forced people to realize
that the sexual stigma around homosexuality was based on
ignorance and and and and secrecy and that as we broke
(22:20):
down that secrecy, as people started coming out it, it
confronted those assumptions. The same thing is happening now
with with with non monogamy which is definitely experiencing
a big revolutionary you know kind of surge at this time and
different flavors of non monogamy and cuckolding is is
(22:44):
definitely one of them there it has been over the past five or
ten years every year cuckolding or you know milfs or hot wife
whatever kind of terms you want to use is consistently some of
the most popular pornography on on the Internet pornhub,
etcetera. Justin Laymiller, A
(23:08):
psychologist, a very good friendof mine, has a lovely book
called Tell Me What You Want about his research into sexual
fantasy. And he finds that around 45% of
men report a sexual fantasy of watching their wife or
girlfriend have sex with other men.
And now it is becoming more acceptable to acknowledge that
(23:32):
fantasy and to potentially explore it.
But just to acknowledge this fantasy alone is is
revolutionary. 90 to 95% of people never share their sexual
fantasy with anybody, not their partner, not their therapist,
because they're afraid they're going to be judged.
(23:52):
But what's happening now is thatand and partially this is the
Internet, partially this is pornography, partially this is
socially changing values, accepting sexual diversity.
It is becoming more and more acceptable for people to have,
quote UN quote, deviant or kinkysex fantasies.
There's this researcher named Christian Joel in Quebec,
(24:16):
Canada, who he researched the prevalence of sexual fantasies,
particularly sexual fantasies that historically the mental
health field has viewed as deviant and unhealthy.
And he found that 50% of people have a sexual fantasy that we
(24:37):
have typically regarded as deviant or unhealthy, and 30% of
them have engaged in it. And interestingly, interest in
sexual submission or masochism was correlated positively with
with life satisfaction. So what we're finding out is
that the only reason we thought these deviant sexual fantasies
(24:58):
were deviant or rare was becausepeople didn't talk about them,
and they didn't talk about them because we would shame them.
Now we're finding out that kinkysexual fantasies, whatever
flavor, are actually the norm, right?
And now it's becoming more, moresafe to express them.
(25:18):
Yeah. And just a little bit less
shameful so that, you know that's go ahead.
Podcasts like this Crystal that they're that you're doing.
I mean, this is how this is how the stigma breaks down and this
is how people become more, more able to express, you know, this,
(25:38):
this, this, this secret, shameful sex fantasy.
So, you know, I'm excited to to mention that at the end of
January 2022, January 25th through the 31st is the 1st
annual Cuck Week where the IT itis, It is going to start off on
(26:00):
Twitter and going into Facebook.There's going to be, you know,
kind of online events every night with people talking about
the positive experiences that they have had with cuckolding.
And it is intended to break downand really challenge that shame
and secrecy around this. It is.
(26:24):
It's coinciding with the releaseof my book Insatiable Wives Now
on audio book and read by the sexy librarian herself, Rose
Caraway, who just has one of thebest sexy voices I've ever
heard. I I didn't think anybody could
ever read this book but her, andI'm glad that she did.
And so we're we're doing this week as a as a way to invite
(26:46):
people who have had this desire or have had this as part of
their lifestyle to maybe come out publicly and talk about it
because that that stigma. And I know you, you said you've
experienced some of this shame and attack around this.
What's that been like for you? Well, so when I started, I've
(27:09):
only been even writing about this.
I mean, I'm not a big, you know,thousand podcast podcast.
I'm just starting. I just started early earlier
last year just writing about my own experience of the joy and
the connectedness and the intimacy of cuckolding and what
it's done for my husband and myself.
(27:30):
Because again, I come from that working in the divorce market
like how many other people couldthat benefit?
And so I started just sharing myexperience.
Then all of a sudden mostly cuckold males or wannabe cuckold
males started bombarding me withquestions and comments And and I
(27:52):
thought, holy cow, there actually is interest in this out
there because I didn't know. You know, I was just sharing my
experience and I'm not trying todo anything with it necessarily.
I just thought maybe it would help somebody.
But I'm I'm just astounded now at how many people are just like
please tell me more, please, howdoes this work?
How do we do that? How do we solve that problem?
(28:13):
And I think that's a wonderful thing because that's where it
starts. You know, I see the, the work
that I do is really an entry point.
I'm not for the experienced cut couple.
That's not the market that I write into.
I just write for people that might be looking for an entry
point to a new possibility. And so that's that's who I write
(28:34):
for. But I've been very shocked.
But I do get I have gotten some from, you know, mostly from
heterosexual straight men who say things like I one guy said
if I ever wanted to watch my wife with someone, I would throw
(28:58):
myself off the roof. And he started that way.
And it was so poignantly, he wasso critical and so it was just,
it was terrible. And in many cases, if people are
just trolling, I won't respond. But in this case, because this
(29:19):
guy was sincerely, even though he was negative, he was
sincerely trying to understand it.
So I had my husband actually write the response to that and
it was beautiful because he got to tell from his own experience
this is what I get out of it. I wouldn't trade it for
1,000,000 bucks and I'm so much I'm so much happier in my
(29:39):
relationship. We have such good communication
and and so he I thought that wasthe best way to address that but
again I'm looking for the personwho's sincerely curious and
maybe looking for an on ramp somewhere or just to find out
more information at least. But yeah, I get, I get, I get a
lot more positive than negative,'cause I I've written a little
(30:00):
bit more now, but but I think you're right, exposure is the
key the more people. It is, I mean.
Who can write into the space? Yeah, yeah.
A couple of years ago, Justin Laymiller that I mentioned, he
and I, along with advice columnist Dan Savage, conducted
research around cuckolding, particularly within the gay
(30:22):
community. And it was fascinating.
CNN picked up the story of of the research and interviewed us
and published this article on CNN talking about how cuckolding
could be positive for some couples.
And Fox News lost its mind because the conservative you
(30:44):
know Republicans that was that was at the time when they were
calling everybody cuck if they weren't you know true enough to
the Republican ideals and and here we are saying turns out
being cuckolding you know being a cuckold could be healthy.
And the the the amazing thing was that it got all this
(31:07):
coverage right. And then I had these
conservatives within that community writing me on the side
and saying Oh my God, I'm so into this and I've had to keep
it secret because of all of the other all of the shame.
And one one person even pointed out to me that if you Google
(31:30):
cuckolding Republican National Convention that these videos pop
up of folks that are that are Republicans going to the RNC and
doing cuckolding on the side while they're there.
And it was just it's so hysterical to me.
But that's The thing is that that that coverage led to all
(31:54):
this outcry and yet some people started reaching out just like
you experienced saying I've always had this desire.
I didn't. I thought I was the only one.
Right, right. Yeah.
That exposure is everything. So it's incredibly important.
And and there are a few, a few people that are really in this
(32:15):
space now, which I'm grateful for and especially grateful to
you because you are the first. This work that you've done here,
in my opinion is the first, it'sbecause you're a professional.
This is your field. You've done the hard research.
You back it up with, you know, hard statistics.
It's always good to have a clinician on your side because
(32:39):
you can say you're not a weirdo and I'm not a weirdo.
We have this thing, and in our case, it's been beautiful.
It's a beautiful thing, and I would want you to have that too.
May not be this way, but you know, at the end of the day, how
will you reconcile your competing needs for safety and
adventure in your relationship? These are just some ideas, but
(33:01):
take on that issue because that might allow you to uncover your
way, whatever your way will be. You know it what you said a
little while ago about when you read, when you read the book and
and and you were like, oh wait, I maybe there's nothing wrong
with me for for being this way. I, you know, it brings joy to my
(33:23):
heart because that that that wasmy intent.
And that's also one of the things that I've heard, you
know, just countless times sinceI wrote the book.
I mean, a month to go by, I don't get an e-mail from
somebody out of the blue saying,you know, Oh my God, I I had
that experience. And the the most touching thing
for me has been women like yourself who had, you know,
(33:48):
integrated a whole lot of sexualshame and stigma around their
female sexuality and and their their identity, their being who
read, you know, read that book and experienced some freedom and
rebirth out of it. And I just, there's nothing,
there's nothing a writer could want more.
There's nothing that a therapistlike me could want more than to
(34:11):
have people accept themself after after reading my book.
So I you know you you've given me a gift and and thank you for
that. Well, on behalf of all the
millions and billions of women in the world who are still
persecuted and maimed and killedfor expressing their sexuality,
and particularly those of us in the cuckold community, I just
(34:34):
can't thank you enough. You know you've given us a tool
that that it just has incalculable value and and we're
so appreciative to you. So I think that's we're going to
wrap that up for today unless you have anything else that
you'd like to share. Doctor Lei.
No, I just I, you know, invite folks to if they haven't checked
(34:57):
out the book, you know, listen to it on audio.
It's it's it's a it's a fabulousread.
I have this fantasy of of, you know, wannabe, cuckold or hot
wife couples, you know, going ona road trip and listening to the
listening to my book as they start to think about exploring
this lifestyle. You can follow Cuck Week on
(35:19):
Twitter and Facebook. It's going to have the the
hashtag Cuck Week. Folks who want to find me can
find me at at davidleighphd.com or on Twitter, which is where a
lot of people connect with me atDoctor David Leigh.
And I can't recommend that. I was just going to say you, you
triggered another memory here years before I found your book.
(35:43):
You know, I was looking for a way to not feel weird about, you
know, what we embraced and the fact that we now have a tool
that sort of validates all of our experience.
I mean, how valuable is that? It's it's just golden.
So and and I often, you know, long before I knew that you had
the book, I would tell people a good place to start is read some
(36:05):
things, watch some things other than porn, read some things.
And now I point them to your book saying read this specific
thing and then come and then come with your questions and you
know, and then you have, you know, you have some context.
And I think that's what's been missing.
So there's no way to thank you enough.
That's the truth. Thank you for doing what you're
(36:26):
doing and and reaching out and touching all those lives.
It it, it makes the world a better place.
Well, we're going to be singing your praises far and wide for,
well, probably as long as we're here.
I would think 'cause it's, it's really important, this thing
that you've done. So again, thank you so sincerely
Dr. Lay for spending a bit of time with me, and thank you for
(36:48):
reaching back when I reached out.
Happy to. You take care of yourself.
Happy New Year and Happy Cuck Week at the end of January.
Yeah, for you too. See you later.
Thank you for tuning in. You can access Crystal's latest
blog and podcast at C Welch Polyon Medium and find her on
(37:09):
Twitter at Crystal Welch 99. Your questions and comments are
always welcome. Also, if you're enjoying the
show, please feel free to rate, subscribe, or leave a review
wherever you listen to your podcasts.
We appreciate it and we'll catchyou in the next episode.
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