December 7, 2024 • 52 mins
Crystal and Anne welcome their cuck husbands to the podcast to discuss the cuckold perspective!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We have two sexual dynamics andsand minds, and we and we're
totally connected together to create 1.
And so you can't say there's an unfairness on one side or the
other when we each are getting something from this.
This is something that gives youso much more than, to be honest,
(00:20):
than an orgasm. I mean, it's, it's basically
edging me to, you know, a thrillin some point.
Well, obviously the person that asked the question doesn't
really understand which is helping.
Yeah. Hey everybody, I just wanted to
(00:41):
give you a quick notice. I am starting to offer a
one-on-one coaching session. It's called Ask Crystal, it is
coaching for individuals and couples as they explore ethical
non monogamy. Whatever your dynamic is, I've
been living in this dynamic for 10 years and I've learned a ton.
And I hope to share some of thatwisdom with you in the hopes
(01:03):
that it will help you. So you'll get the details in the
show notes and I hope to see youthere.
Hello everyone, this is Crystal Welch here and I am super
excited. We have a special episode today.
I'm being joined by my cuck husband Bitchard, as well as my
Co podcaster Anne and her husband James.
(01:26):
So we we've talked about a lot of different topics over the
last few months and very often we said, wow, I want it'd be
great to hear their own viewpoint on that particular
thing. So we can't remember all those
things, but we're going to do our best to try.
And we don't know what we say. We have to listen to our own
(01:48):
podcast again. But anyway, I'm going to
introduce them and then we're we're going to try and get some
cock perspective. Anna and I have our ideas about
what we think they experience and what they think.
But today is the day they can spill the tea on their own.
So welcome Bitchard. Say hello.
Hello everyone. Oh, and it's Bitchard's birthday
(02:10):
too. And Anne, why don't you go ahead
and introduce your lovely husband?
Well hello everyone Crystal, it's so great to be back.
This is James, my cuckold, filled with a small J.
So James with a dot, as we like to say, but he's happy to be
here too. Yes, this.
(02:31):
This should be fun A. Couple of things we're going to
tackle today is, is this fair? Is being a cuckold fair?
What do they actually get out ofit?
Along those lines, we're going to be talking, we'll do it in
sort of a past, present, future format.
So I'm going to start off with, I'd like you guys to answer, how
(02:56):
did you get started? When did you know you were a
cuck and how did you know that and how did you start?
Richard, go ahead. Oh hey, so in AI got to really
wrap wrap the clock back in a previous marriage, my ex-wife
(03:18):
cheated on me and I was I was gone on a trip and I got back
and she acted weird and this went for about two weeks and
then I'm like, look, what the hell is going on with you?
You know, why haven't you been talking to me or interacting or
anything? And then she just starts crying,
you know, and, and she said, I'msorry, we'd only been married
like two months. And she said, I'm so sorry, but
(03:42):
I cheated on you and, and I was like, what the what the hell,
man? You know, we've only been
married a couple months. And.
And then so at the same time I'mkind of feeling angry.
I, I feel a tug coming from below my belt, like, what the
hell, What are you doing down there?
You know, and next thing I know is we're on the kitchen floor
(04:05):
banging like teenagers and I go,wow, I don't know what just
happened, but that was kind of fun, you know?
And so that's was my first, my first cuckolding experience, I
guess. And her and I had we lived in
the Bay Area and had a pretty active life.
As a matter of fact, I'm going to drop this on you guys.
(04:26):
Just a few weeks ago, Crystal was talking about Anne and James
and, and I don't know why I'd never paid that much attention.
James, you can probably relate, but all of a sudden I'm like
Anne and James, Anne and James. I remember an Anne and James
from fmsb.org and and then all the sudden I went back and
(04:47):
looked and sure enough it was you guys.
And I'm saying I wrote about youon that website for like 10.
Years. Oh man.
That's do you, do you remember what I'm talking about?
What do you? What was it?
What was it again? The website.
FM FM SB It was fuck my slut bride but they just used the the
(05:07):
letters fmsb.org. I.
Don't remember that. Was that part like a Yahoo?
I don't remember that. Maybe.
No, no, no. It's it's what was it That was
its domain and then they changedit to something about married
something here recently. Oh, isn't.
That where your blog is, it's. Like Cuckold.
Marriage. Yeah.
(05:29):
It's probably cuckold. Marriage.
Yeah. Cuckold marriage, Yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He yeah, he changed it. Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, that goes. Back about 10 years, 10 years
ago, we changed it I think. But anyway, so.
That's in the small world right there.
Yeah, so that's how I, I'm like,oh, I know them.
Hell, I've been reading about them forever, you know I.
(05:50):
Thought maybe you were going to go back to the Yahoo groups when
we. Yeah, we were on Yahoo Groups
too. That was, yeah, we that was
another part of our introductioninto the lifestyle was there was
a really active gangbang group down in the Bay Area called The
Crew and they did interracial gangbangs.
(06:11):
And they, that's how we first got involved with them was
through like the Yahoo. What did they call those groups,
The Yahoo group? That was true.
And so we started going to the interracial gangbangs and met a
bunch of people in the lifestyle.
And that was sort of my start inthis whole thing.
(06:32):
So that's that's sort of the roots of my beginnings.
Yeah, I, my story is a little bit different.
There was no one specific event like you were describing.
I think people probably know or if they don't know, we've been,
we've had an open marriage for our the entire length of our
(06:53):
marriage, which I'll be upfront has been 37 years.
And so we've had a journey that has brought us and, and taken us
through different situations in that.
So my perspective of, of cuckold, becoming a cuckold was
really an evolution over time, going through different
situations and whatnot. And it was not a situation where
(07:16):
I saw something online because online didn't really exist a lot
back then. But but it was a, you know, it
was a situation when we were just evolving, experiencing
different things, understanding each other's sexual dynamic
because it was becoming apparentthat there was two dynamics
involved as one and the, you know, and finally someone asked
(07:41):
us if we are a cuckold. We had no idea what exactly what
the word meant or. And so we looked it up and we
realized that, yeah, we've been doing this for years now.
Interestingly, the one one thingthat does stand out in the kind
of the cuckolding, we have gone back and kind of revisited some
(08:03):
some of those experiences that led us up.
And it appears probably unbeknownst to us at that time
that my first cuckold experiencereally did not involve Anne with
another man. It involved Anne with another
woman and that's when the emotions really became apparent
that you start feeling this angst and and but at the same
(08:27):
time you have a certain thrill that's, you know, you kind of a
coming up too. And so she went through a two
year relationship with another woman that was very serious.
It was a beautiful relationship and because the other one was a
lesbian, there was no sex to be.But it was me standing there and
seeing them, you know, in this sexual and romantic
(08:50):
relationship. But that eventually ended and we
continued it on our journey. And so it's you kind of have to
revisit some of the past to understand certain things that
maybe were a trigger. That's probably the biggest
trigger. But I, I've always enjoyed in
all those experiences seeing andwith other men and having been
(09:15):
in the swing lifestyle portion and with other women, it got to
the point where I would be with another woman and but then after
a while I'd be going, where's Anne?
What she's doing? What is she doing?
You know, and so there's this strong connection that we have.
And so that kind of, you know, continued on and, and, you know,
(09:39):
established this instead of couples, established a singular
thing that Anne could have, and that was men.
And along the path, you know, she was introduced to black men
and then it really took off. We've been strong proponents,
you know, vocally and through the writings in the for the last
(10:02):
nine years. And so it's been interesting.
You know, at that time, we didn't, we thought we were alone
when we realized we were a couple couple.
But since then, the community has exploded and that has, you
know, created this comfort levelof who we are and what we do.
Yeah. So James, our trajectories
(10:24):
weren't that far apart, even though we we first, you know,
fell on the floor and I and I had this great, you know, life
changing experience. Our trajectory actually followed
you guys that we, we played a part, we played together.
We were very, we were very involved in the just regular
swinging lifestyle and went to alot of swinging parties.
(10:44):
But I learned more about myself and, and had a very similar
experience to yours that we would go to a swinging party and
my pleasure was watching my wife, you know, and these other
girls would be annoying me like,hey, you want to go play?
And I'm like, leave me alone. Yeah, there.
There's some truth there. Yeah, so I but, but just like
(11:09):
you, I had never heard of a cuckold back then and I really
didn't know how to label, you know, what it was that I liked.
And now that I know how to labelit, I'm fighting the label as
hard as I can. And so meaning that the label is
so indistinctive anymore that wedon't know what it means.
So. Yeah, it's a, it's a big
umbrella of different things that can be so, yeah.
(11:33):
So yeah, we, you know, it's, it's great that we have a
community now. Yeah.
And that's a great thing. But it but I I think that's
really interesting that both youand I kind of wandered through
swinger land on our way here You.
Know. Yes, and wander is a good word,
yeah. Kind of came to the same
conclusion about it too. That's probably not that
(11:56):
unusual. I I would think that I think
there's a lot of couples that have evolved from swinging into
cooking and you know, everybody starts somewhere.
So I appreciate you guys sharingthat that beginning story
because I think a lot of people will be able to relate to that.
But let's get to the really big one.
(12:17):
What the heck do you get out of it?
What do you, if you can tell us in your own words?
What is it about this dynamic that just floats your boat?
Boy, that's a, you know, that's a question that I think really
comes back to the, the, the relationship that Anne and I
(12:40):
have the strength that that we have the the ability to, you
know, communicates very well. And so I think it's a situation
where because of how we evolved in our sexual dynamic over a
long period of time, you kind ofgenerate a lot of different
(13:02):
things about your own sexual identity.
And my identity revolves around the aspect of not because as
with other men, the denial and denial can be a big umbrella for
a lot of different ways to achieve it.
But from denial, I get a a masochistic type of emotions set
(13:29):
of emotions dealing between angst of if you're going to go
over the Cliff or the joy of this is just so awesome and you
know you want it to continue on.And at this point, a lot of that
angst has because I'm so comfortable with it.
The angst is not as big of an issue as just the pure joy that
(13:53):
I get to see Anne enjoy. This past weekend we went to
Splash. She had a fantastic time.
I had a fantastic time. I wasn't always in the room.
That's that's kind of how I do things.
It increases that denial aspect.And So what do I get from it?
(14:15):
I get the fact that we are so goddamn close that you know,
there can't be any other thing but that, you know that that
strong emotion that's, you know,the her afterglow and Sharon in
it. And so, you know, that's, I'm
not sure that is a very precise answer, but it, it is a
(14:36):
difficult question to answer because I think each person is,
is different in their, their relationship.
And but I think the commonality is always that there's this,
this incredible bond between thetwo people and their ability to
communicate, their ability to trust their, you know, their
ability to share, their ability to champion each other.
(15:00):
Thank you for that. That was beautiful.
Actually, I think that's one thing that a lot of people don't
believe too. They don't believe that this
type of consensual non monogamy agreement can bring that kind of
closeness. It seems counterintuitive to
people that don't know, so thankyou for that explanation.
(15:22):
Right. Richard, what is it for you?
Right. Well, I think, you know, it's
gone through a lot of phases in my life and I've moved, you
know, from like a a lot of men in particular are first drawn to
the real pruient, you know, sideof it and the sexuality and, and
I certainly have always enjoyed seeing very sexual women.
(15:47):
You know, it's, it's always beensomething that really appeals to
me. But I, I also don't think that
you can really have a long term successful cuckolding
relationship just based on prurience.
You know, I think there's a spiritual aspect to it that I
think particularly I hear it coming from a lot of Cox and and
(16:09):
I think James, without putting words in your mouth, I hear when
you know, I've got a Catholic background in and was an ex
seminarian and these these thoughts that I hear coming from
you, I think all could be reframed very religiously and
and put inside and and please don't blame me for being a
(16:30):
Catholic. I'm reformed.
I'm out of that, but I hear these thoughts.
That's all right. So.
He's married. There's one in the family too.
He's. Married.
He's married. God help us all.
But I hear these I hear these things about like self
masochism. And this is Janus.
Do you know this comes from a rich Catholic tradition of of
(16:51):
self denial. And you know, you can't, you
can't understand Catholicism without understanding fasting
and without understanding not, not giving in to the things that
you want to do. It's considered weakness.
And in fact, I think this is something that that Crystal and
(17:12):
I have agreed on many times is that it takes a certain strength
to be a, to be a cuckold. And, and we and yeah, and we,
and we find that through our sacrifice.
And and this, this is very much,very much Sacramento insight of
Catholicism. And then moving on to the other
(17:34):
thing you talked about, which was so great is how it combined
you as a couple. You know, that that you have to
be able to communicate on such adeep level and be able to share
thoughts so intimately that it just transcends you out of a lot
of couples that, you know, they can't, they can't even
(17:54):
communicate enough to decide who's going to do the dishes.
And we're talking about who's going to do my wife, you know?
All right. And.
Yeah, the dish, the dishes is easy like the.
Yeah, I got that. Yeah, but how much harder is the
conversation? When we first started, we, we
were like, OK, you can go fuck guys, but I don't want you to
(18:18):
like them. And then that, that and this
happiness that I get now that, oh, here's a guy that she really
likes. And look at how, look at how
they make music together, you know, and I get happiness from
her happiness. And surely I, I think any good,
you know, Christian person would, would also consider that
(18:41):
a value, you know, the fact thatyou can gain happiness through
other people's happiness, which is actually the opposite of
envy, you know, and, and, and inmy very uninformed view, the
whole idea of, of coveting is, you know, this is the opposite
of coveting. This is allowing sharing and,
(19:03):
and in a way, the ultimate in empathy.
And so that's sort of so that's what attracts it me to it today,
although I certainly didn't. Start it.
That's a very interesting perspective.
I never related to a religious aspect of it.
That's so I find that very interesting.
There are some elements of what you describe that probably are,
(19:26):
are true. I, I, I am not a religious
person per SE, except of faith. And so I don't, you know, try to
define my life in that respect. But there are some things of
faith that tell me, you know, this is, you know, there's a
certain part of what, who we areand how we will be that we have
(19:47):
no control over. And, you know, so I, I, it, it
is interesting. I, I, I, one of our first things
that we decided early on when wegot into this whole thing, I
mean, going back years is we never had rules, we never had
boundaries. We were always we as we matched
(20:08):
very well in the sense as as people, we always.
Are open to trying things and doing things.
I am the type of person being half German, I can be a little
more disciplined in that. And you know, I'm very
passionate about when we first met about sex.
(20:29):
And I've communicated that to Anne right away and she didn't
have a problem with it. As things continued, I might
come up with an idea and throw it out there and it's and she's
being the social butter. She says, yeah, let's do it.
And so we would do it. And so we've experienced a lot
of things without the rules and boundaries that allowed us to
get to where we are right now. But more importantly, allow us
(20:50):
as a couple to come together andbe strong and be for each other.
And not everyone can do that. Not not everyone is comfortable
without rules and boundaries. And so that, you know, is kind
of an aspect that makes us a little bit different.
(21:10):
I'm, I'm sure there are others out there, but I always hear
people when they talk about it, you know, the rules and
boundaries. You made a comment about the,
you know, you can't have emotions.
I was never about you can't haveemotions.
Actually, those emotions kind ofgive me that, that angst.
That's what I want to see. Because that's her.
(21:31):
That's what she's about. And that, you know, thrills me.
It gives me angst when there's areal cat connection.
But because we can communicate and we trust, we figure it out,
We have some hard conversations at times, works out great.
But you know, it's I don't want to in any way impede what she's
about. And and so probably that answers
(21:54):
the question is what do I get out of this?
I get out of this by letting herbe her.
And that just thrills me. Crystal, didn't we touch touched
on spirituality in our last episode, Yeah.
But I think it's kind of it's such a big topic.
I think it it deserves an entireepisode because it's deep and
(22:14):
profound. But let we let's definitely
touch on it. But I just don't think there'll
be a time in this one, but we'llschedule again.
But that that's a big topic and they just opened that, you know,
both of them just sort of openedup that topic.
So let's let's definitely go forit.
To me, that's what gives cuckoldine its legs.
(22:35):
I mean, there's lots of people out there that, you know, can
just kind of get off on the, youknow, the sex side of it.
But I just don't think that has legs, you know, I, I think, you
know, you can only do that once in a while and then it's off
chasing another shiny object, you know?
Well, I think it the fact that we can speak to a spiritual
(22:55):
aspect at all, you know, that sort of separates out the the
looky loos or the the people just looking for an experience
from the people that have taken this seriously and taken it as a
lifestyle and allowed it to to deepen their intimacy in their
primary relationship. You know, it's entirely valid,
(23:17):
but I think that spiritual aspect is what separates the men
from the boys or however you saythat.
I think it's, I think it's, I think it's a big deal.
Yeah, I think there's some truththere.
I mean, this is such a deeply emotional type of sexual
relationship that I think peoplekind of overlook and from both
(23:40):
sides. And I think that a lot of people
just probably are not interestedin that.
They're, you know, they're more towards the.
The how do I get my wife to fuckother men?
And you're answering with, well,you know, Thomas Aquinas said.
(24:01):
Go to church. I mean, Oh my goodness.
Well, I have a question. Do you ever feel like this is
unfair? Let me take that on 1st this
time. What a stupid question of.
Course it's. Unfair.
(24:25):
Does anybody go to a pro Dom andsay OK, this is a democracy now
you know? And obviously, no disrespect you
intended, Anne, I know the question was fed into us, but
when I first heard that question, I thought, this is the
most ridiculous, stupidest question I've ever heard in my
(24:45):
life, you know? So yes, the answer to your
question is yes, Anne. It is unfair at its best.
And just like, no, I, it's, it'swell, my perspective is it's not
unfair because I don't even think about, you know, fairness
in, in this. It's it's, you know, it's a
(25:06):
situation that you have, as I mentioned before, you have two
sexual dynamics ands and minds. And we and we're totally
connected together to create 1. And so you can't say there's an
unfairness on one side or the other when we each are getting
something from this. It's not about what she does.
I have to also do it's about what she does that gives me what
(25:30):
I can do. And so, you know, I find it, you
know, you know, people asking that question is like much like
you said, Richard, it's just like, are you kidding me?
I mean, where are you? I mean, you just want to wank
off here, you know, and and be done.
I mean, no, this is this is, youknow, this is something that you
(25:51):
take it and it gives you so muchmore than to be honest than an
orgasm. I mean, it's, it's basically
edging me to, you know, a thrillin some point.
Well, obviously the person that asked the question doesn't
really understand which is helping him.
Right, right. And that, and so you, I guess
you could devolve it into a conversation about what is
(26:13):
fairness. You know, I mean, if we're all
getting what we want, is that fair even even though there's a
automatically a power imbalance,you know, of necessity.
And so is it, is it unfair for the Colonel to tell the private
to go, you know, charge down the, you know, charge, go charge
the machine nest or something? You know, it's, it's not even
(26:36):
really, I don't, you know, I, I think it's, it's a foreign
language to start describing it in terms of fairness.
I thought these these are a lot of the questions that come from
my listeners typically are people who are curious and
they're looking for an on ramp. So they don't have the
experience. They, they find it hard to
comprehend that you actually getsomething out of it.
(26:59):
They don't understand the, the, you know, the notion of a
conversion where you actually get happiness from someone
else's happiness. You know, so it's, it's really
the, the, the question is designed for those people
looking for is this right for meis, you know, can I understand
this at a deeper level so that, you know, I would have some
(27:21):
basis to, to try and see if, andsee if it would be a fit for me
and my partner. The only way you're going to
know is you're going to have to go out there and you're going to
have to experience sex in a sexual situation with your
partner and understand what thatcreates and, and, and
understand, you know, from that you're going to either, you
(27:41):
know, do this or that. And whatever you choose to do,
hopefully you've communicated about it and said, Hey, this is
where we want to, we should go. Whether it's cuckolder or not,
it's not important is in my mind, it's about just
experiencing something and making from that experience, you
know, an evolution of, you know,this is what you you're both
(28:04):
interested in. And so, you know, I just it's it
is it, it is a sexual dynamic. I mean, that's the bottom line.
And so you have to experience sex with your partner in a
manner that you know, different ways which might create, you
know, your partner being, you know, monogamous and you're the
(28:27):
other partner, not monogamous and decide, you know, if that's
it, I mean, you can't, there's only so much where you can go in
terms of thinking about it. And God almighty cuckolds really
think about it. Yeah, and.
And think about it and overthinkabout it.
And so, but the reality is, is you've got to experience it.
And so you just have to, you know, go out there and try to
(28:51):
figure out a way how you can do it and ease into it.
If if my recommendation be to ease into it and, you know, kind
of make some decisions or you know, have some revelations
about we know what it brings to you so.
Thank you. Thank you guys for answering
that. It just brought another question
to my mind. I'm going to ask you guys
(29:11):
because Anne and I have gotten this question probably 10,000
times. What do you, what do you as men
say to the other men who are trying to get their wives or
manipulate their wives into doing this for them?
How would you advise them? Oh yeah, the the question that
(29:33):
every person that wants to be init wants to have an answer, a
clear answer on how to do it a ablueprint.
Who should go first? Stuart Bishard.
Well, I, I, you know, I just took it.
I mean, you know, I, I think to answer that question, you have
to kind of understand the other person first that's asking you
(29:54):
that and where they are, what, what is their situation in, you
know, so that you can kind of answer in a, a way that they can
understand for where, where theyare.
That's a kind of a vague answer,But I'm, I'm the type of person
that's sensitive to other peopleand trying to understand them
(30:14):
when they ask a question like that, There is no easy way to,
you know, kind of say this is the right thing to do or the
wrong thing to do. I first of all, my first
question back to them would be what's your relationship?
How strong is it? Do you have trust?
(30:37):
Can you communicate? Do you champion each other?
You know, those things have to be in place.
They have to be in place even inreal life outside of a sexual
dynamic. And if there's any weakness in
there, I would say you'd probably need to, you know,
strengthen, strengthen it a little bit and, you know, go out
there and experience a little bit of a sexual experience, But
(30:59):
without those bedrock, you know,elements, you're probably going
to fail. And I, you know, I, no one wants
to fail at anything. I don't want anyone to fail at
anything. But I want, you know, them to
understand a certain reality of expectation.
If you don't take the time to, you know, kind of work on your
(31:22):
relationship and a lot of other ways to to have it strong
because you will be faced with some, you know, hard, you know,
emotions at times in a cuckold dynamic.
And if you don't work on those things, it will fail.
And so, you know, my basic answer is trying to understand
(31:43):
then where the relationship is, how strong it is and you know,
and emphasize that strength. And then, you know, probably,
you know, just say, hey, you know, it sounds like you if it's
there, you just need to now makea decision if the two of you
want to go out there and have a sexual experience of some sort
to kind of test it. But you know, it's, it's typical
(32:06):
cuckold. I overthink it sometimes too.
So. Yeah, I think James, I agree
100% with you. What I see, you know, like on
the Reddit forums and some of the other ones is, you know, how
do I trick my wife into this or,or Crystal needs the word
manipulate my wife into this. And when I see those questions,
(32:29):
it instantly in my mind says you're not ready for this.
You know, your relationship's not ready for it and you are not
ready for it. Just by the fact that you are
willing to manipulate your wife in order to get your sexual
jollies right there has answeredthe question to me.
You know, we, there's there's noreason to to, to talk about, you
(32:51):
know, a. 100%. You know, no, we saw I had quite
a few examples of that in the whole swinging thing, like it
was such a. You can tell when it's going to
crash and burn pretty quickly. Oh yeah, we've all seen it,
Yeah. Absolutely.
You're right, Anne, the swingingworld has the very same thing.
(33:14):
Usually husbands that have two active an imagination dragging
their wives into an experience that their relationship isn't
ready for, right? Right.
And then more often than not, it's the husband that has the, I
don't know if it's a guilt attack or what, but he's the one
that the next morning wakes up with this sexual hangover and
(33:35):
guilt and shame and Oh my God, what did this whore do, you
know? And.
The beast is out of the closet. Yeah, right.
Yeah, his aunt says. Be careful what you want.
Be careful what you wish for. I mean like it's.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. These women get turned loose and
they, you know, they enjoy it and then all the sudden, you
(33:57):
know, the husband feels. Anyway, it's just craziness.
If you know if you really want to have a great cuckled
relationship, start with relationship and then get to
cuckle down the. Rd.
One of the things we wanted to cover was how do you balance
your, your life? And I know that we had other
(34:19):
conversation that'll be added out so we probably have a little
more time. But how do you, how do you
balance being a cuckold? And you know, from your real
life to your cuckold life, even though they're very, they're
blended. How do you balance the two?
(34:40):
Yeah, for us, it's very difficult.
I would, I, I, I, I don't. Would you agree?
It's probably our most difficultchallenge.
Well, from my perspective, the difficulty factor is that I so
rarely have a lover that we're not in the arena very much.
(35:01):
I mean that's that is the difficulty factor.
So it's kind of a non issue for us only because we lack
opportunity when there when there is someone and usually
they're, you know, shorter term.So it, you know, we really
haven't had a long term connection that we would have to
(35:24):
actually, you know, deal with work, you know, cut life issues
that could come in the future. But so far we just, you know,
we, we just haven't had the longer term experience to be
forced to pick and choose stuff.So I interpreted the question a
(35:44):
little bit differently and, and more about how do I move into
submission and more of a femdom relationship.
So not very specifically cuckolding, but more the femdom,
you know, submissive role-playing that goes on in a
lot of cuckold relationships and, and ideally in our cuckold
(36:04):
relationship. And it's I, I just have trouble
shifting gears sometimes, you know, I, I do tend to be a kind
of aggressive alpha dude. And then it's hard for me to
change that gear. And it's very difficult for
Crystal because, you know, we're, we're both amped up and,
(36:26):
and then all the sudden to try to flip this over to, to this
power inequality role-playing, it's, it's just very difficult,
I think for both of us to changeour mindsets on a dime, you
know? Well, I think because of our
dynamic, we don't have this, these extremes.
It's more constant. There's a lot of subtleties and
(36:50):
teasing and things that happen regardless if I, you know, have
a date or not. And we, you know, like you, I
don't, you know, splash, I made-up for a year, you know,
so. Or at least too.
Much too much. Well, it was, it was better than
I thought. We can maybe talk off air and we
can share some funny things, butI feel like we don't, you know,
(37:18):
do we have it in the forefront of our mind all the time?
No. You know, family things are
happening, you know, but it never goes away.
So I think because we don't havethis extreme power shift, if you
will, no or roll shift. Yeah, there's we, I think to put
(37:39):
it pretty simply, we're, we're achill couple.
And so I think that we're very comfortable.
Yes, we have real life. Today was, you know, an active
day of things. But here we are now.
And I think the because we're both chill, we don't seem to be
(38:03):
affected by, like Anne said, theextremes that could happen.
I think that we flow very easilybetween what we have to do and
who we are and a sexual dynamic.We're I feel very strong as a
person, as a cuckold and also outside the life in life.
(38:26):
And, and could, you know, she could be, you know, getting
ready to, you know, either vet someone in the back seat or, or
getting together with someone. And I can be easily, you know,
still doing what I need to do relative to things that are not
maybe as connected to what she'sgoing to do.
(38:49):
But when she comes back, it's there and we connect and you
know, she tells me about it and it's, you know, it's great.
You know, I think that it's, youknow, something that, you know,
you're just so comfortable aboutit that we don't have to think
hard about it, I guess is the best way to say it.
(39:11):
You know, we just have to we just it just naturally will, you
know, ease into a conversation at times for us if we just want
to you want to talk about some things, bring me up to speed of
what you're doing or you know, the in the your dates or
whatever, or you know, just, youknow, coming out of it, you
know, coming out. It sounds boring, but.
(39:34):
It's just like or you come out of Flash.
What I'd like to ask, I would like to ask you guys if you can
lend us some chill pill because obviously we were both ramped up
to about 900 miles an hour all the time and it's a problem.
It's a problem. Yeah.
Going back to the spiritual aspect of it though, one of the
(39:56):
things that I hope to benefit from a cuckold relationship is
to chill and to and to learn thegrace of humility.
For example, you know, speaking to a a Catholic, you would
understand that that you know, there, there is this there.
I think that there is a certain subtle grace in being able to
step down and and chill out and control your emotions.
(40:19):
And you know more than control your emotions to master your
emotions. Right, that's a good.
You know, it's, it's, you know, it's an interesting, you know,
situation where, you know, like splash, it's an event that
brings a lot of black men to thetable, so to speak.
And seeing Anne is, you know, inthe candy store, so to speak.
(40:41):
That's, that's fantastic. I, you know, step aside and
that's what I'd like to do. That's how I experience it best,
as much as possible. Coming back.
You, you got you. You know, we have been gone for
a week, not only because of Splash, but other things.
And you suddenly realize you gotto come back to the real world.
(41:05):
Well, you, we don't feel like we're abandoning anything.
We're just feeling OK, we need to do this, this and that.
But then, you know, later on we sit down for dinner or have a
drink and we will start talking about Splash, you know, and it's
just like we ebb and flow based upon what, you know, how our
days going, how the things that we have to do.
But we always try to make sure that that conversation does
(41:29):
include our sexual dynamic at times because there's we don't.
We're just that's who we are. Yeah, but it's.
Yeah, but it's not 24/7. No, it's not 24/7.
There's no there's no schedule or regularity.
Right. Yeah, there's, you know, I just
like I said, Evans. Yeah, OK.
I want to be Anne and James whenI grow up.
(41:50):
Well, I actually think I I at least I would rate myself as
being a pretty good, you know, in quote marks cock when we're
in the dynamic, when we're in the moment that, you know,
you're with somebody, you know, it's that's not when we have our
trouble. And I say this, you guys know I
(42:13):
love her absolutely dearly. You know, the the wheels aren't
coming off of this at all. And, and I think it's good that
we can actually be honest and frank about, you know, all.
Every moment isn't special. Right.
That's for sure. Yeah, so.
And and so don't don't take thiswrong like the wheels are coming
off the bus because they're not.And I and I'm just madly in love
(42:35):
with this woman. But we do sometimes when there's
not other people around. We can get gritty.
Yeah, we can get gritty. Yeah.
And and because both of us wantsto be in charge.
Yeah. We can just be go ahead.
I just haven't beat him enough to get him to figure this thing
(42:56):
out yet, so I don't know. What were you going to say,
Anne? Oh, I mean, I we definitely can
both be a little bitchy towards one another and you know, I want
more and he, you know, my angst of not having any lover, you
(43:17):
know, rubs off on him. You know, it kind of goes full
circle. You know we're.
Yeah, but we're there to champion for each other, so you
know it's not. Not always rosy, but most you
would try to make. So I I do remember the question
from the the cuckold cocked my life.
They asked us if we are an FLR and.
(43:40):
You broke up right there. Say that again.
They asked us if we were an FLR couple and we are not in the
true sense of what most people say is always one person in that
role. We we are in the sense of our
sexual dynamic. But as a couple in life, we have
(44:05):
strengths in different ways thatit's important that we work as a
team. And so that is something that
some people kind of confuse the FLR as being, you know, pretty
much a dominant thing when it doesn't really have to.
You can enjoy it. But you sometimes, you know,
(44:27):
like us, there are other things that I just I'm better AT and
there's some things that she's better AT.
And we have a family. And so these things, you know,
require teamwork. So what about you guys?
Do you have a definition definedroles crystal?
Are you always the one in charge?
(44:50):
No, I just get aggravated at himbecause, you know, we have power
struggle. That's exactly what we have.
You know, we're all we're both fighting for the top rung or the
last say or something like this.And you know, I think it's a bad
habit that we've gotten into. But no, we don't we're not in
any any kind of dynamic 24/7. It's for us, it's not compatible
(45:12):
with day-to-day life. We have also family.
We have other things going on and you know, and when we're
with other people, this never comes up.
But when we have too much time with just us.
You know. We'll both be fighting for the
last word in the conversation. And I don't know, but yeah, we,
we don't. We're not in anything 24/7.
(45:33):
Yeah. If I can fight you for the last
word here. Yeah, actually, here we go.
See I rest my case. Actually, what I was going to
say is we're, when we're in a play dynamic, I think we do
enjoy FLR, you know, I right. Is that fair?
Yeah, yeah. But, but in day-to-day, no,
there's definitely things that she's better AT and she usually
(45:55):
does and other things I'm betterat and I usually do.
And then there's a little bit ofoverlap in some places, and
those are the. And then there's a fight, Fight
Club. But but, but when we're in the
dynamic, I enjoy FLR. I think it's really fun.
Yeah, and he goes really deep too.
So that's the that's the time where he can really, he's really
(46:16):
fun to, he likes verbal humiliation.
He likes a little impact. I mean, I really can just sort
of let it fly and hopefully get all my angst out there so that
it doesn't come out when we're just like having dinner or
something like that. Right, ruining at a nice
restaurant. Yeah, it's not like we're having
dinner, but actually one of the things that we've enjoyed doing
(46:38):
a couple of times when it, when we have guests over is, you
know, I, I just go into this total service role where I'm
cook and Butler and serve them dinner and, you know, and, and
so, yeah, it's and, you know, it's pure service.
I mean, it's, you know, and I and I get a kick out of it.
Yeah, and it's and it's super fun.
(46:58):
So we don't have any trouble at all in the dynamic.
It's just we can get into power struggle outside of that.
I, I love that when you, we, we haven't had too many.
I've had, I've entertained him in here, but very few have
actually like one in particular had a meal here and it was
(47:20):
pretty much on the fly. But James served us and you
know, he served us drinks and you know, he's been very, very
good about that. But I love that because I'm
usually the one who does all that in normal day-to-day.
Except. For the clean up.
Yeah, I'd like to say we share, but I don't know, maybe Crystal
(47:42):
would disagree. But but it's fun.
I mean, if you guys ever get thehouse alone to where you feel
safe and you can do something. And I certainly think it's a lot
of fun to just, you know, bring in, make a really nice dinner
and serve it several courses andpour the wine and, you know, all
the all. The stuff you know, Yeah.
And that's why, you know, and I,I definitely have a distinct
(48:04):
preference for people that I have a good relationship with
that can spend a weekend, not just a hit and run.
That's not really my style. And I don't do that really very
much. But you know, people that I have
a a friendship with and a relationship, we like to have
them in for the weekend so we can really just indulge in the
(48:24):
whole thing, both of us. That's interesting because we
gravitate towards the hotel. I mean, you can, you can make a
comment to this, but the fact that, you know, that we're so
but we both work out of the house.
We're here together most of the time.
And so there's just like we wantto get out of here.
(48:46):
And so Anne has, you know, expressed a lot of times and and
she's had, you know, she with Anthony.
You've, you know, known for years he would come over.
But at some point it's just like, it would be great if we
can experience a different vocation.
Yeah. But but I but on yeah, I think
experience hotels are fun, but Ialso, we haven't had that deep
(49:10):
of our relationship, you know, on a consistent basis where you
could just have someone come over for dinner and stay the
night. And to me, that would be ideal.
There's plenty of places for youto sleep.
We already have that all worked out if we were to have that.
But you. Know but I think once in a while
a hotel's fun but I also like the idea of, you know, having
(49:33):
someone over for dinner and likejust experiencing life with them
besides just sex, you know there's more to.
It yeah, that's that's by far our preferred what way to play,
I mean. Yeah, that's, you know, and
that's really been my ammo sinceforever.
I, I have to have connection and, and I really appreciate men
(49:58):
that have big brains and I want to have a, at least a
friendship. I'm not really interested in
sleeping with people if it isn'tsomebody I would want to be
friends with. So, so my field, although we
don't have very many black men here where we live anyway, that
narrows my field even more because not everybody's willing
to invest the time in being friends and getting to know each
(50:21):
other and, you know, spending a little bit more time.
So, so we have long, long, long dry spells.
So this real life thing has to be a real thing because most of
ours is real life. And then like you'd mentioned
about sleeping in the other room, that's typically our thing
too, is we might all go to bed to well, actually, the way it
(50:44):
usually works out as I'm doing the dishes, Crystal and her
friend go upstairs to bed and then I'll join them, you know,
like 1520 minutes later or something.
And we'll all play for a little while.
But then I go to the spare bedroom for the night and
she'll, she'll sleep alone with him for the evening.
That's kind of the thing that wedo now, you know.
Yeah, and it's and that we both like that.
(51:06):
So three people in a bed is justnobody gets any sleep, you know?
No, I I think that sounds. Great.
Yeah, Super fun. Well, I so much thank all of you
for being willing to, you know, open your hearts and your
stories because I think a lot ofpeople will benefit from this.
(51:28):
And I just appreciate your willingness to rearrange your
schedule to be here today. I think we should do it again
because I think there's a lot more we could talk about, but
but we'll talk about that later.But anyway, for now, thank you
Ann and James and Bitchard. It really was a fun conversation
(51:49):
and I hope it benefits our listeners a great deal.
We're just like real humans out here in suburbia, like everybody
else. It was a little secret.
It it was fun and I appreciate you and including us so.
Yeah, we really enjoyed. It Yeah, Thank you so much.
All right, guys, signing off.
We have two sexual dynamics andsand minds, and we and we're
totally connected together to create 1.
And so you can't say there's an unfairness on one side or the
other when we each are getting something from this.
This is something that gives youso much more than, to be honest,
(00:20):
than an orgasm. I mean, it's, it's basically
edging me to, you know, a thrillin some point.
Well, obviously the person that asked the question doesn't
really understand which is helping.
Yeah. Hey everybody, I just wanted to
(00:41):
give you a quick notice. I am starting to offer a
one-on-one coaching session. It's called Ask Crystal, it is
coaching for individuals and couples as they explore ethical
non monogamy. Whatever your dynamic is, I've
been living in this dynamic for 10 years and I've learned a ton.
And I hope to share some of thatwisdom with you in the hopes
(01:03):
that it will help you. So you'll get the details in the
show notes and I hope to see youthere.
Hello everyone, this is Crystal Welch here and I am super
excited. We have a special episode today.
I'm being joined by my cuck husband Bitchard, as well as my
Co podcaster Anne and her husband James.
(01:26):
So we we've talked about a lot of different topics over the
last few months and very often we said, wow, I want it'd be
great to hear their own viewpoint on that particular
thing. So we can't remember all those
things, but we're going to do our best to try.
And we don't know what we say. We have to listen to our own
(01:48):
podcast again. But anyway, I'm going to
introduce them and then we're we're going to try and get some
cock perspective. Anna and I have our ideas about
what we think they experience and what they think.
But today is the day they can spill the tea on their own.
So welcome Bitchard. Say hello.
Hello everyone. Oh, and it's Bitchard's birthday
(02:10):
too. And Anne, why don't you go ahead
and introduce your lovely husband?
Well hello everyone Crystal, it's so great to be back.
This is James, my cuckold, filled with a small J.
So James with a dot, as we like to say, but he's happy to be
here too. Yes, this.
(02:31):
This should be fun A. Couple of things we're going to
tackle today is, is this fair? Is being a cuckold fair?
What do they actually get out ofit?
Along those lines, we're going to be talking, we'll do it in
sort of a past, present, future format.
So I'm going to start off with, I'd like you guys to answer, how
(02:56):
did you get started? When did you know you were a
cuck and how did you know that and how did you start?
Richard, go ahead. Oh hey, so in AI got to really
wrap wrap the clock back in a previous marriage, my ex-wife
(03:18):
cheated on me and I was I was gone on a trip and I got back
and she acted weird and this went for about two weeks and
then I'm like, look, what the hell is going on with you?
You know, why haven't you been talking to me or interacting or
anything? And then she just starts crying,
you know, and, and she said, I'msorry, we'd only been married
like two months. And she said, I'm so sorry, but
(03:42):
I cheated on you and, and I was like, what the what the hell,
man? You know, we've only been
married a couple months. And.
And then so at the same time I'mkind of feeling angry.
I, I feel a tug coming from below my belt, like, what the
hell, What are you doing down there?
You know, and next thing I know is we're on the kitchen floor
(04:05):
banging like teenagers and I go,wow, I don't know what just
happened, but that was kind of fun, you know?
And so that's was my first, my first cuckolding experience, I
guess. And her and I had we lived in
the Bay Area and had a pretty active life.
As a matter of fact, I'm going to drop this on you guys.
(04:26):
Just a few weeks ago, Crystal was talking about Anne and James
and, and I don't know why I'd never paid that much attention.
James, you can probably relate, but all of a sudden I'm like
Anne and James, Anne and James. I remember an Anne and James
from fmsb.org and and then all the sudden I went back and
(04:47):
looked and sure enough it was you guys.
And I'm saying I wrote about youon that website for like 10.
Years. Oh man.
That's do you, do you remember what I'm talking about?
What do you? What was it?
What was it again? The website.
FM FM SB It was fuck my slut bride but they just used the the
(05:07):
letters fmsb.org. I.
Don't remember that. Was that part like a Yahoo?
I don't remember that. Maybe.
No, no, no. It's it's what was it That was
its domain and then they changedit to something about married
something here recently. Oh, isn't.
That where your blog is, it's. Like Cuckold.
Marriage. Yeah.
(05:29):
It's probably cuckold. Marriage.
Yeah. Cuckold marriage, Yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He yeah, he changed it. Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, that goes. Back about 10 years, 10 years
ago, we changed it I think. But anyway, so.
That's in the small world right there.
Yeah, so that's how I, I'm like,oh, I know them.
Hell, I've been reading about them forever, you know I.
(05:50):
Thought maybe you were going to go back to the Yahoo groups when
we. Yeah, we were on Yahoo Groups
too. That was, yeah, we that was
another part of our introductioninto the lifestyle was there was
a really active gangbang group down in the Bay Area called The
Crew and they did interracial gangbangs.
(06:11):
And they, that's how we first got involved with them was
through like the Yahoo. What did they call those groups,
The Yahoo group? That was true.
And so we started going to the interracial gangbangs and met a
bunch of people in the lifestyle.
And that was sort of my start inthis whole thing.
(06:32):
So that's that's sort of the roots of my beginnings.
Yeah, I, my story is a little bit different.
There was no one specific event like you were describing.
I think people probably know or if they don't know, we've been,
we've had an open marriage for our the entire length of our
(06:53):
marriage, which I'll be upfront has been 37 years.
And so we've had a journey that has brought us and, and taken us
through different situations in that.
So my perspective of, of cuckold, becoming a cuckold was
really an evolution over time, going through different
situations and whatnot. And it was not a situation where
(07:16):
I saw something online because online didn't really exist a lot
back then. But but it was a, you know, it
was a situation when we were just evolving, experiencing
different things, understanding each other's sexual dynamic
because it was becoming apparentthat there was two dynamics
involved as one and the, you know, and finally someone asked
(07:41):
us if we are a cuckold. We had no idea what exactly what
the word meant or. And so we looked it up and we
realized that, yeah, we've been doing this for years now.
Interestingly, the one one thingthat does stand out in the kind
of the cuckolding, we have gone back and kind of revisited some
(08:03):
some of those experiences that led us up.
And it appears probably unbeknownst to us at that time
that my first cuckold experiencereally did not involve Anne with
another man. It involved Anne with another
woman and that's when the emotions really became apparent
that you start feeling this angst and and but at the same
(08:27):
time you have a certain thrill that's, you know, you kind of a
coming up too. And so she went through a two
year relationship with another woman that was very serious.
It was a beautiful relationship and because the other one was a
lesbian, there was no sex to be.But it was me standing there and
seeing them, you know, in this sexual and romantic
(08:50):
relationship. But that eventually ended and we
continued it on our journey. And so it's you kind of have to
revisit some of the past to understand certain things that
maybe were a trigger. That's probably the biggest
trigger. But I, I've always enjoyed in
all those experiences seeing andwith other men and having been
(09:15):
in the swing lifestyle portion and with other women, it got to
the point where I would be with another woman and but then after
a while I'd be going, where's Anne?
What she's doing? What is she doing?
You know, and so there's this strong connection that we have.
And so that kind of, you know, continued on and, and, you know,
(09:39):
established this instead of couples, established a singular
thing that Anne could have, and that was men.
And along the path, you know, she was introduced to black men
and then it really took off. We've been strong proponents,
you know, vocally and through the writings in the for the last
(10:02):
nine years. And so it's been interesting.
You know, at that time, we didn't, we thought we were alone
when we realized we were a couple couple.
But since then, the community has exploded and that has, you
know, created this comfort levelof who we are and what we do.
Yeah. So James, our trajectories
(10:24):
weren't that far apart, even though we we first, you know,
fell on the floor and I and I had this great, you know, life
changing experience. Our trajectory actually followed
you guys that we, we played a part, we played together.
We were very, we were very involved in the just regular
swinging lifestyle and went to alot of swinging parties.
(10:44):
But I learned more about myself and, and had a very similar
experience to yours that we would go to a swinging party and
my pleasure was watching my wife, you know, and these other
girls would be annoying me like,hey, you want to go play?
And I'm like, leave me alone. Yeah, there.
There's some truth there. Yeah, so I but, but just like
(11:09):
you, I had never heard of a cuckold back then and I really
didn't know how to label, you know, what it was that I liked.
And now that I know how to labelit, I'm fighting the label as
hard as I can. And so meaning that the label is
so indistinctive anymore that wedon't know what it means.
So. Yeah, it's a, it's a big
umbrella of different things that can be so, yeah.
(11:33):
So yeah, we, you know, it's, it's great that we have a
community now. Yeah.
And that's a great thing. But it but I I think that's
really interesting that both youand I kind of wandered through
swinger land on our way here You.
Know. Yes, and wander is a good word,
yeah. Kind of came to the same
conclusion about it too. That's probably not that
(11:56):
unusual. I I would think that I think
there's a lot of couples that have evolved from swinging into
cooking and you know, everybody starts somewhere.
So I appreciate you guys sharingthat that beginning story
because I think a lot of people will be able to relate to that.
But let's get to the really big one.
(12:17):
What the heck do you get out of it?
What do you, if you can tell us in your own words?
What is it about this dynamic that just floats your boat?
Boy, that's a, you know, that's a question that I think really
comes back to the, the, the relationship that Anne and I
(12:40):
have the strength that that we have the the ability to, you
know, communicates very well. And so I think it's a situation
where because of how we evolved in our sexual dynamic over a
long period of time, you kind ofgenerate a lot of different
(13:02):
things about your own sexual identity.
And my identity revolves around the aspect of not because as
with other men, the denial and denial can be a big umbrella for
a lot of different ways to achieve it.
But from denial, I get a a masochistic type of emotions set
(13:29):
of emotions dealing between angst of if you're going to go
over the Cliff or the joy of this is just so awesome and you
know you want it to continue on.And at this point, a lot of that
angst has because I'm so comfortable with it.
The angst is not as big of an issue as just the pure joy that
(13:53):
I get to see Anne enjoy. This past weekend we went to
Splash. She had a fantastic time.
I had a fantastic time. I wasn't always in the room.
That's that's kind of how I do things.
It increases that denial aspect.And So what do I get from it?
(14:15):
I get the fact that we are so goddamn close that you know,
there can't be any other thing but that, you know that that
strong emotion that's, you know,the her afterglow and Sharon in
it. And so, you know, that's, I'm
not sure that is a very precise answer, but it, it is a
(14:36):
difficult question to answer because I think each person is,
is different in their, their relationship.
And but I think the commonality is always that there's this,
this incredible bond between thetwo people and their ability to
communicate, their ability to trust their, you know, their
ability to share, their ability to champion each other.
(15:00):
Thank you for that. That was beautiful.
Actually, I think that's one thing that a lot of people don't
believe too. They don't believe that this
type of consensual non monogamy agreement can bring that kind of
closeness. It seems counterintuitive to
people that don't know, so thankyou for that explanation.
(15:22):
Right. Richard, what is it for you?
Right. Well, I think, you know, it's
gone through a lot of phases in my life and I've moved, you
know, from like a a lot of men in particular are first drawn to
the real pruient, you know, sideof it and the sexuality and, and
I certainly have always enjoyed seeing very sexual women.
(15:47):
You know, it's, it's always beensomething that really appeals to
me. But I, I also don't think that
you can really have a long term successful cuckolding
relationship just based on prurience.
You know, I think there's a spiritual aspect to it that I
think particularly I hear it coming from a lot of Cox and and
(16:09):
I think James, without putting words in your mouth, I hear when
you know, I've got a Catholic background in and was an ex
seminarian and these these thoughts that I hear coming from
you, I think all could be reframed very religiously and
and put inside and and please don't blame me for being a
(16:30):
Catholic. I'm reformed.
I'm out of that, but I hear these thoughts.
That's all right. So.
He's married. There's one in the family too.
He's. Married.
He's married. God help us all.
But I hear these I hear these things about like self
masochism. And this is Janus.
Do you know this comes from a rich Catholic tradition of of
(16:51):
self denial. And you know, you can't, you
can't understand Catholicism without understanding fasting
and without understanding not, not giving in to the things that
you want to do. It's considered weakness.
And in fact, I think this is something that that Crystal and
(17:12):
I have agreed on many times is that it takes a certain strength
to be a, to be a cuckold. And, and we and yeah, and we,
and we find that through our sacrifice.
And and this, this is very much,very much Sacramento insight of
Catholicism. And then moving on to the other
(17:34):
thing you talked about, which was so great is how it combined
you as a couple. You know, that that you have to
be able to communicate on such adeep level and be able to share
thoughts so intimately that it just transcends you out of a lot
of couples that, you know, they can't, they can't even
(17:54):
communicate enough to decide who's going to do the dishes.
And we're talking about who's going to do my wife, you know?
All right. And.
Yeah, the dish, the dishes is easy like the.
Yeah, I got that. Yeah, but how much harder is the
conversation? When we first started, we, we
were like, OK, you can go fuck guys, but I don't want you to
(18:18):
like them. And then that, that and this
happiness that I get now that, oh, here's a guy that she really
likes. And look at how, look at how
they make music together, you know, and I get happiness from
her happiness. And surely I, I think any good,
you know, Christian person would, would also consider that
(18:41):
a value, you know, the fact thatyou can gain happiness through
other people's happiness, which is actually the opposite of
envy, you know, and, and, and inmy very uninformed view, the
whole idea of, of coveting is, you know, this is the opposite
of coveting. This is allowing sharing and,
(19:03):
and in a way, the ultimate in empathy.
And so that's sort of so that's what attracts it me to it today,
although I certainly didn't. Start it.
That's a very interesting perspective.
I never related to a religious aspect of it.
That's so I find that very interesting.
There are some elements of what you describe that probably are,
(19:26):
are true. I, I, I am not a religious
person per SE, except of faith. And so I don't, you know, try to
define my life in that respect. But there are some things of
faith that tell me, you know, this is, you know, there's a
certain part of what, who we areand how we will be that we have
(19:47):
no control over. And, you know, so I, I, it, it
is interesting. I, I, I, one of our first things
that we decided early on when wegot into this whole thing, I
mean, going back years is we never had rules, we never had
boundaries. We were always we as we matched
(20:08):
very well in the sense as as people, we always.
Are open to trying things and doing things.
I am the type of person being half German, I can be a little
more disciplined in that. And you know, I'm very
passionate about when we first met about sex.
(20:29):
And I've communicated that to Anne right away and she didn't
have a problem with it. As things continued, I might
come up with an idea and throw it out there and it's and she's
being the social butter. She says, yeah, let's do it.
And so we would do it. And so we've experienced a lot
of things without the rules and boundaries that allowed us to
get to where we are right now. But more importantly, allow us
(20:50):
as a couple to come together andbe strong and be for each other.
And not everyone can do that. Not not everyone is comfortable
without rules and boundaries. And so that, you know, is kind
of an aspect that makes us a little bit different.
(21:10):
I'm, I'm sure there are others out there, but I always hear
people when they talk about it, you know, the rules and
boundaries. You made a comment about the,
you know, you can't have emotions.
I was never about you can't haveemotions.
Actually, those emotions kind ofgive me that, that angst.
That's what I want to see. Because that's her.
(21:31):
That's what she's about. And that, you know, thrills me.
It gives me angst when there's areal cat connection.
But because we can communicate and we trust, we figure it out,
We have some hard conversations at times, works out great.
But you know, it's I don't want to in any way impede what she's
about. And and so probably that answers
(21:54):
the question is what do I get out of this?
I get out of this by letting herbe her.
And that just thrills me. Crystal, didn't we touch touched
on spirituality in our last episode, Yeah.
But I think it's kind of it's such a big topic.
I think it it deserves an entireepisode because it's deep and
(22:14):
profound. But let we let's definitely
touch on it. But I just don't think there'll
be a time in this one, but we'llschedule again.
But that that's a big topic and they just opened that, you know,
both of them just sort of openedup that topic.
So let's let's definitely go forit.
To me, that's what gives cuckoldine its legs.
(22:35):
I mean, there's lots of people out there that, you know, can
just kind of get off on the, youknow, the sex side of it.
But I just don't think that has legs, you know, I, I think, you
know, you can only do that once in a while and then it's off
chasing another shiny object, you know?
Well, I think it the fact that we can speak to a spiritual
(22:55):
aspect at all, you know, that sort of separates out the the
looky loos or the the people just looking for an experience
from the people that have taken this seriously and taken it as a
lifestyle and allowed it to to deepen their intimacy in their
primary relationship. You know, it's entirely valid,
(23:17):
but I think that spiritual aspect is what separates the men
from the boys or however you saythat.
I think it's, I think it's, I think it's a big deal.
Yeah, I think there's some truththere.
I mean, this is such a deeply emotional type of sexual
relationship that I think peoplekind of overlook and from both
(23:40):
sides. And I think that a lot of people
just probably are not interestedin that.
They're, you know, they're more towards the.
The how do I get my wife to fuckother men?
And you're answering with, well,you know, Thomas Aquinas said.
(24:01):
Go to church. I mean, Oh my goodness.
Well, I have a question. Do you ever feel like this is
unfair? Let me take that on 1st this
time. What a stupid question of.
Course it's. Unfair.
(24:25):
Does anybody go to a pro Dom andsay OK, this is a democracy now
you know? And obviously, no disrespect you
intended, Anne, I know the question was fed into us, but
when I first heard that question, I thought, this is the
most ridiculous, stupidest question I've ever heard in my
(24:45):
life, you know? So yes, the answer to your
question is yes, Anne. It is unfair at its best.
And just like, no, I, it's, it'swell, my perspective is it's not
unfair because I don't even think about, you know, fairness
in, in this. It's it's, you know, it's a
(25:06):
situation that you have, as I mentioned before, you have two
sexual dynamics ands and minds. And we and we're totally
connected together to create 1. And so you can't say there's an
unfairness on one side or the other when we each are getting
something from this. It's not about what she does.
I have to also do it's about what she does that gives me what
(25:30):
I can do. And so, you know, I find it, you
know, you know, people asking that question is like much like
you said, Richard, it's just like, are you kidding me?
I mean, where are you? I mean, you just want to wank
off here, you know, and and be done.
I mean, no, this is this is, youknow, this is something that you
(25:51):
take it and it gives you so muchmore than to be honest than an
orgasm. I mean, it's, it's basically
edging me to, you know, a thrillin some point.
Well, obviously the person that asked the question doesn't
really understand which is helping him.
Right, right. And that, and so you, I guess
you could devolve it into a conversation about what is
(26:13):
fairness. You know, I mean, if we're all
getting what we want, is that fair even even though there's a
automatically a power imbalance,you know, of necessity.
And so is it, is it unfair for the Colonel to tell the private
to go, you know, charge down the, you know, charge, go charge
the machine nest or something? You know, it's, it's not even
(26:36):
really, I don't, you know, I, I think it's, it's a foreign
language to start describing it in terms of fairness.
I thought these these are a lot of the questions that come from
my listeners typically are people who are curious and
they're looking for an on ramp. So they don't have the
experience. They, they find it hard to
comprehend that you actually getsomething out of it.
(26:59):
They don't understand the, the, you know, the notion of a
conversion where you actually get happiness from someone
else's happiness. You know, so it's, it's really
the, the, the question is designed for those people
looking for is this right for meis, you know, can I understand
this at a deeper level so that, you know, I would have some
(27:21):
basis to, to try and see if, andsee if it would be a fit for me
and my partner. The only way you're going to
know is you're going to have to go out there and you're going to
have to experience sex in a sexual situation with your
partner and understand what thatcreates and, and, and
understand, you know, from that you're going to either, you
(27:41):
know, do this or that. And whatever you choose to do,
hopefully you've communicated about it and said, Hey, this is
where we want to, we should go. Whether it's cuckolder or not,
it's not important is in my mind, it's about just
experiencing something and making from that experience, you
know, an evolution of, you know,this is what you you're both
(28:04):
interested in. And so, you know, I just it's it
is it, it is a sexual dynamic. I mean, that's the bottom line.
And so you have to experience sex with your partner in a
manner that you know, different ways which might create, you
know, your partner being, you know, monogamous and you're the
(28:27):
other partner, not monogamous and decide, you know, if that's
it, I mean, you can't, there's only so much where you can go in
terms of thinking about it. And God almighty cuckolds really
think about it. Yeah, and.
And think about it and overthinkabout it.
And so, but the reality is, is you've got to experience it.
And so you just have to, you know, go out there and try to
(28:51):
figure out a way how you can do it and ease into it.
If if my recommendation be to ease into it and, you know, kind
of make some decisions or you know, have some revelations
about we know what it brings to you so.
Thank you. Thank you guys for answering
that. It just brought another question
to my mind. I'm going to ask you guys
(29:11):
because Anne and I have gotten this question probably 10,000
times. What do you, what do you as men
say to the other men who are trying to get their wives or
manipulate their wives into doing this for them?
How would you advise them? Oh yeah, the the question that
(29:33):
every person that wants to be init wants to have an answer, a
clear answer on how to do it a ablueprint.
Who should go first? Stuart Bishard.
Well, I, I, you know, I just took it.
I mean, you know, I, I think to answer that question, you have
to kind of understand the other person first that's asking you
(29:54):
that and where they are, what, what is their situation in, you
know, so that you can kind of answer in a, a way that they can
understand for where, where theyare.
That's a kind of a vague answer,But I'm, I'm the type of person
that's sensitive to other peopleand trying to understand them
(30:14):
when they ask a question like that, There is no easy way to,
you know, kind of say this is the right thing to do or the
wrong thing to do. I first of all, my first
question back to them would be what's your relationship?
How strong is it? Do you have trust?
(30:37):
Can you communicate? Do you champion each other?
You know, those things have to be in place.
They have to be in place even inreal life outside of a sexual
dynamic. And if there's any weakness in
there, I would say you'd probably need to, you know,
strengthen, strengthen it a little bit and, you know, go out
there and experience a little bit of a sexual experience, But
(30:59):
without those bedrock, you know,elements, you're probably going
to fail. And I, you know, I, no one wants
to fail at anything. I don't want anyone to fail at
anything. But I want, you know, them to
understand a certain reality of expectation.
If you don't take the time to, you know, kind of work on your
(31:22):
relationship and a lot of other ways to to have it strong
because you will be faced with some, you know, hard, you know,
emotions at times in a cuckold dynamic.
And if you don't work on those things, it will fail.
And so, you know, my basic answer is trying to understand
(31:43):
then where the relationship is, how strong it is and you know,
and emphasize that strength. And then, you know, probably,
you know, just say, hey, you know, it sounds like you if it's
there, you just need to now makea decision if the two of you
want to go out there and have a sexual experience of some sort
to kind of test it. But you know, it's, it's typical
(32:06):
cuckold. I overthink it sometimes too.
So. Yeah, I think James, I agree
100% with you. What I see, you know, like on
the Reddit forums and some of the other ones is, you know, how
do I trick my wife into this or,or Crystal needs the word
manipulate my wife into this. And when I see those questions,
(32:29):
it instantly in my mind says you're not ready for this.
You know, your relationship's not ready for it and you are not
ready for it. Just by the fact that you are
willing to manipulate your wife in order to get your sexual
jollies right there has answeredthe question to me.
You know, we, there's there's noreason to to, to talk about, you
(32:51):
know, a. 100%. You know, no, we saw I had quite
a few examples of that in the whole swinging thing, like it
was such a. You can tell when it's going to
crash and burn pretty quickly. Oh yeah, we've all seen it,
Yeah. Absolutely.
You're right, Anne, the swingingworld has the very same thing.
(33:14):
Usually husbands that have two active an imagination dragging
their wives into an experience that their relationship isn't
ready for, right? Right.
And then more often than not, it's the husband that has the, I
don't know if it's a guilt attack or what, but he's the one
that the next morning wakes up with this sexual hangover and
(33:35):
guilt and shame and Oh my God, what did this whore do, you
know? And.
The beast is out of the closet. Yeah, right.
Yeah, his aunt says. Be careful what you want.
Be careful what you wish for. I mean like it's.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. These women get turned loose and
they, you know, they enjoy it and then all the sudden, you
(33:57):
know, the husband feels. Anyway, it's just craziness.
If you know if you really want to have a great cuckled
relationship, start with relationship and then get to
cuckle down the. Rd.
One of the things we wanted to cover was how do you balance
your, your life? And I know that we had other
(34:19):
conversation that'll be added out so we probably have a little
more time. But how do you, how do you
balance being a cuckold? And you know, from your real
life to your cuckold life, even though they're very, they're
blended. How do you balance the two?
(34:40):
Yeah, for us, it's very difficult.
I would, I, I, I, I don't. Would you agree?
It's probably our most difficultchallenge.
Well, from my perspective, the difficulty factor is that I so
rarely have a lover that we're not in the arena very much.
(35:01):
I mean that's that is the difficulty factor.
So it's kind of a non issue for us only because we lack
opportunity when there when there is someone and usually
they're, you know, shorter term.So it, you know, we really
haven't had a long term connection that we would have to
(35:24):
actually, you know, deal with work, you know, cut life issues
that could come in the future. But so far we just, you know,
we, we just haven't had the longer term experience to be
forced to pick and choose stuff.So I interpreted the question a
(35:44):
little bit differently and, and more about how do I move into
submission and more of a femdom relationship.
So not very specifically cuckolding, but more the femdom,
you know, submissive role-playing that goes on in a
lot of cuckold relationships and, and ideally in our cuckold
(36:04):
relationship. And it's I, I just have trouble
shifting gears sometimes, you know, I, I do tend to be a kind
of aggressive alpha dude. And then it's hard for me to
change that gear. And it's very difficult for
Crystal because, you know, we're, we're both amped up and,
(36:26):
and then all the sudden to try to flip this over to, to this
power inequality role-playing, it's, it's just very difficult,
I think for both of us to changeour mindsets on a dime, you
know? Well, I think because of our
dynamic, we don't have this, these extremes.
It's more constant. There's a lot of subtleties and
(36:50):
teasing and things that happen regardless if I, you know, have
a date or not. And we, you know, like you, I
don't, you know, splash, I made-up for a year, you know,
so. Or at least too.
Much too much. Well, it was, it was better than
I thought. We can maybe talk off air and we
can share some funny things, butI feel like we don't, you know,
(37:18):
do we have it in the forefront of our mind all the time?
No. You know, family things are
happening, you know, but it never goes away.
So I think because we don't havethis extreme power shift, if you
will, no or roll shift. Yeah, there's we, I think to put
(37:39):
it pretty simply, we're, we're achill couple.
And so I think that we're very comfortable.
Yes, we have real life. Today was, you know, an active
day of things. But here we are now.
And I think the because we're both chill, we don't seem to be
(38:03):
affected by, like Anne said, theextremes that could happen.
I think that we flow very easilybetween what we have to do and
who we are and a sexual dynamic.We're I feel very strong as a
person, as a cuckold and also outside the life in life.
(38:26):
And, and could, you know, she could be, you know, getting
ready to, you know, either vet someone in the back seat or, or
getting together with someone. And I can be easily, you know,
still doing what I need to do relative to things that are not
maybe as connected to what she'sgoing to do.
(38:49):
But when she comes back, it's there and we connect and you
know, she tells me about it and it's, you know, it's great.
You know, I think that it's, youknow, something that, you know,
you're just so comfortable aboutit that we don't have to think
hard about it, I guess is the best way to say it.
(39:11):
You know, we just have to we just it just naturally will, you
know, ease into a conversation at times for us if we just want
to you want to talk about some things, bring me up to speed of
what you're doing or you know, the in the your dates or
whatever, or you know, just, youknow, coming out of it, you
know, coming out. It sounds boring, but.
(39:34):
It's just like or you come out of Flash.
What I'd like to ask, I would like to ask you guys if you can
lend us some chill pill because obviously we were both ramped up
to about 900 miles an hour all the time and it's a problem.
It's a problem. Yeah.
Going back to the spiritual aspect of it though, one of the
(39:56):
things that I hope to benefit from a cuckold relationship is
to chill and to and to learn thegrace of humility.
For example, you know, speaking to a a Catholic, you would
understand that that you know, there, there is this there.
I think that there is a certain subtle grace in being able to
step down and and chill out and control your emotions.
(40:19):
And you know more than control your emotions to master your
emotions. Right, that's a good.
You know, it's, it's, you know, it's an interesting, you know,
situation where, you know, like splash, it's an event that
brings a lot of black men to thetable, so to speak.
And seeing Anne is, you know, inthe candy store, so to speak.
(40:41):
That's, that's fantastic. I, you know, step aside and
that's what I'd like to do. That's how I experience it best,
as much as possible. Coming back.
You, you got you. You know, we have been gone for
a week, not only because of Splash, but other things.
And you suddenly realize you gotto come back to the real world.
(41:05):
Well, you, we don't feel like we're abandoning anything.
We're just feeling OK, we need to do this, this and that.
But then, you know, later on we sit down for dinner or have a
drink and we will start talking about Splash, you know, and it's
just like we ebb and flow based upon what, you know, how our
days going, how the things that we have to do.
But we always try to make sure that that conversation does
(41:29):
include our sexual dynamic at times because there's we don't.
We're just that's who we are. Yeah, but it's.
Yeah, but it's not 24/7. No, it's not 24/7.
There's no there's no schedule or regularity.
Right. Yeah, there's, you know, I just
like I said, Evans. Yeah, OK.
I want to be Anne and James whenI grow up.
(41:50):
Well, I actually think I I at least I would rate myself as
being a pretty good, you know, in quote marks cock when we're
in the dynamic, when we're in the moment that, you know,
you're with somebody, you know, it's that's not when we have our
trouble. And I say this, you guys know I
(42:13):
love her absolutely dearly. You know, the the wheels aren't
coming off of this at all. And, and I think it's good that
we can actually be honest and frank about, you know, all.
Every moment isn't special. Right.
That's for sure. Yeah, so.
And and so don't don't take thiswrong like the wheels are coming
off the bus because they're not.And I and I'm just madly in love
(42:35):
with this woman. But we do sometimes when there's
not other people around. We can get gritty.
Yeah, we can get gritty. Yeah.
And and because both of us wantsto be in charge.
Yeah. We can just be go ahead.
I just haven't beat him enough to get him to figure this thing
(42:56):
out yet, so I don't know. What were you going to say,
Anne? Oh, I mean, I we definitely can
both be a little bitchy towards one another and you know, I want
more and he, you know, my angst of not having any lover, you
(43:17):
know, rubs off on him. You know, it kind of goes full
circle. You know we're.
Yeah, but we're there to champion for each other, so you
know it's not. Not always rosy, but most you
would try to make. So I I do remember the question
from the the cuckold cocked my life.
They asked us if we are an FLR and.
(43:40):
You broke up right there. Say that again.
They asked us if we were an FLR couple and we are not in the
true sense of what most people say is always one person in that
role. We we are in the sense of our
sexual dynamic. But as a couple in life, we have
(44:05):
strengths in different ways thatit's important that we work as a
team. And so that is something that
some people kind of confuse the FLR as being, you know, pretty
much a dominant thing when it doesn't really have to.
You can enjoy it. But you sometimes, you know,
(44:27):
like us, there are other things that I just I'm better AT and
there's some things that she's better AT.
And we have a family. And so these things, you know,
require teamwork. So what about you guys?
Do you have a definition definedroles crystal?
Are you always the one in charge?
(44:50):
No, I just get aggravated at himbecause, you know, we have power
struggle. That's exactly what we have.
You know, we're all we're both fighting for the top rung or the
last say or something like this.And you know, I think it's a bad
habit that we've gotten into. But no, we don't we're not in
any any kind of dynamic 24/7. It's for us, it's not compatible
(45:12):
with day-to-day life. We have also family.
We have other things going on and you know, and when we're
with other people, this never comes up.
But when we have too much time with just us.
You know. We'll both be fighting for the
last word in the conversation. And I don't know, but yeah, we,
we don't. We're not in anything 24/7.
(45:33):
Yeah. If I can fight you for the last
word here. Yeah, actually, here we go.
See I rest my case. Actually, what I was going to
say is we're, when we're in a play dynamic, I think we do
enjoy FLR, you know, I right. Is that fair?
Yeah, yeah. But, but in day-to-day, no,
there's definitely things that she's better AT and she usually
(45:55):
does and other things I'm betterat and I usually do.
And then there's a little bit ofoverlap in some places, and
those are the. And then there's a fight, Fight
Club. But but, but when we're in the
dynamic, I enjoy FLR. I think it's really fun.
Yeah, and he goes really deep too.
So that's the that's the time where he can really, he's really
(46:16):
fun to, he likes verbal humiliation.
He likes a little impact. I mean, I really can just sort
of let it fly and hopefully get all my angst out there so that
it doesn't come out when we're just like having dinner or
something like that. Right, ruining at a nice
restaurant. Yeah, it's not like we're having
dinner, but actually one of the things that we've enjoyed doing
(46:38):
a couple of times when it, when we have guests over is, you
know, I, I just go into this total service role where I'm
cook and Butler and serve them dinner and, you know, and, and
so, yeah, it's and, you know, it's pure service.
I mean, it's, you know, and I and I get a kick out of it.
Yeah, and it's and it's super fun.
(46:58):
So we don't have any trouble at all in the dynamic.
It's just we can get into power struggle outside of that.
I, I love that when you, we, we haven't had too many.
I've had, I've entertained him in here, but very few have
actually like one in particular had a meal here and it was
(47:20):
pretty much on the fly. But James served us and you
know, he served us drinks and you know, he's been very, very
good about that. But I love that because I'm
usually the one who does all that in normal day-to-day.
Except. For the clean up.
Yeah, I'd like to say we share, but I don't know, maybe Crystal
(47:42):
would disagree. But but it's fun.
I mean, if you guys ever get thehouse alone to where you feel
safe and you can do something. And I certainly think it's a lot
of fun to just, you know, bring in, make a really nice dinner
and serve it several courses andpour the wine and, you know, all
the all. The stuff you know, Yeah.
And that's why, you know, and I,I definitely have a distinct
(48:04):
preference for people that I have a good relationship with
that can spend a weekend, not just a hit and run.
That's not really my style. And I don't do that really very
much. But you know, people that I have
a a friendship with and a relationship, we like to have
them in for the weekend so we can really just indulge in the
(48:24):
whole thing, both of us. That's interesting because we
gravitate towards the hotel. I mean, you can, you can make a
comment to this, but the fact that, you know, that we're so
but we both work out of the house.
We're here together most of the time.
And so there's just like we wantto get out of here.
(48:46):
And so Anne has, you know, expressed a lot of times and and
she's had, you know, she with Anthony.
You've, you know, known for years he would come over.
But at some point it's just like, it would be great if we
can experience a different vocation.
Yeah. But but I but on yeah, I think
experience hotels are fun, but Ialso, we haven't had that deep
(49:10):
of our relationship, you know, on a consistent basis where you
could just have someone come over for dinner and stay the
night. And to me, that would be ideal.
There's plenty of places for youto sleep.
We already have that all worked out if we were to have that.
But you. Know but I think once in a while
a hotel's fun but I also like the idea of, you know, having
(49:33):
someone over for dinner and likejust experiencing life with them
besides just sex, you know there's more to.
It yeah, that's that's by far our preferred what way to play,
I mean. Yeah, that's, you know, and
that's really been my ammo sinceforever.
I, I have to have connection and, and I really appreciate men
(49:58):
that have big brains and I want to have a, at least a
friendship. I'm not really interested in
sleeping with people if it isn'tsomebody I would want to be
friends with. So, so my field, although we
don't have very many black men here where we live anyway, that
narrows my field even more because not everybody's willing
to invest the time in being friends and getting to know each
(50:21):
other and, you know, spending a little bit more time.
So, so we have long, long, long dry spells.
So this real life thing has to be a real thing because most of
ours is real life. And then like you'd mentioned
about sleeping in the other room, that's typically our thing
too, is we might all go to bed to well, actually, the way it
(50:44):
usually works out as I'm doing the dishes, Crystal and her
friend go upstairs to bed and then I'll join them, you know,
like 1520 minutes later or something.
And we'll all play for a little while.
But then I go to the spare bedroom for the night and
she'll, she'll sleep alone with him for the evening.
That's kind of the thing that wedo now, you know.
Yeah, and it's and that we both like that.
(51:06):
So three people in a bed is justnobody gets any sleep, you know?
No, I I think that sounds. Great.
Yeah, Super fun. Well, I so much thank all of you
for being willing to, you know, open your hearts and your
stories because I think a lot ofpeople will benefit from this.
(51:28):
And I just appreciate your willingness to rearrange your
schedule to be here today. I think we should do it again
because I think there's a lot more we could talk about, but
but we'll talk about that later.But anyway, for now, thank you
Ann and James and Bitchard. It really was a fun conversation
(51:49):
and I hope it benefits our listeners a great deal.
We're just like real humans out here in suburbia, like everybody
else. It was a little secret.
It it was fun and I appreciate you and including us so.
Yeah, we really enjoyed. It Yeah, Thank you so much.
All right, guys, signing off.
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