March 23, 2025 • 40 mins
Summary of Episode:
This conversation delves into the complexities.of race, relationships, and the concept of race play. The participants discuss their personal experiences, the differences between preferences and fetishes,and the impact of stereotypes and objectification.
Our Panel: Feel free to reach out to any of them!
Contact CrystalWelch:
On Bluesky: @1CrystalWelch.bsky.social
Blog: https://medium.com/@beyondmonogamy
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6UfFVAa1B6jkQCHhlpyKZl
Book Private CoachingSession: https://cal.com/crystalwelch/30min
Anne Cuckoldress:BlueSky: @annecuckoldress.bsky.social
Pagan, Black Bull: @PaganBlackBull on X / the same on Telegram
GenttlemanJack: on Telegram: @Gntlmnjack
MrMocha: OfacezPodcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/444k5EAM2CpHstiMVfpILV
The second race chat will be on his platform…so subscribe!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Hey everybody, I just wanted to give you a quick notice.
I am starting to offer a one-on-one coaching session.
It's called Ask Crystal. It is coaching for individuals
and couples as they explore ethical non monogamy.
Whatever your dynamic is. I've been living in this dynamic
for 10 years and I've learned a ton and I hope to share some of
that wisdom with you in the hopes that it will help you.
(00:30):
So you'll get the details in theshow notes and I hope to see you
there. Hello everybody.
It's Crystal Welch with Beyond Monogamy with Crystal Welch, and
I'm super excited to have four important guests here today.
I've been talking with a number of my friends and having my own
experiences about race and race play in the lifestyle, and I
(00:53):
think this is an incredibly important discussion.
Not a lot of people want to takeit on.
I get quite a lot of yap from white men who are offended by
the fact that I am black only. So I want to, I want to open up
that topic and talk about it. So I'm going to have everybody
introduce themselves. This is an All Star cast.
(01:16):
They're very well known and verywell respected people in our
circle. And I'm just honored that all of
you are here. And so I'm going to start with
you, Mr. Pagan. Hello everybody.
I'm Pagan. Or you can reach me on Twitter
at at Pagan Black Bull. And I'm very happy to be here
with friends talking about something that I feel like isn't
(01:38):
talked about enough. But I think that's going to
change today. Great.
Thanks for joining. Pagan.
Jack, let's hear from you. Good morning, good afternoon.
Good evening everyone. I am Jack, Jenna and Jack on any
former social media from Houston. 50 year old partner
Bull. Thanks for having me.
All right. Thank you for being here.
And the famous Mr. Mocha himselfis here.
(01:59):
I get the famous word. Oh no.
Hello everybody, I am Mr. Mocha from the Old Faces podcast.
I am a. Married, stag, you know,
whatever works at the moment. And I, I am interested in this
topic because it's something that my listeners have asked
about and I don't have a whole lot of knowledge on it because
even though I am into interracial play, I didn't know
(02:22):
if it was considered race play. So I'm here to learn and ask
questions. Great.
Thank you for being here I appreciate it and my lovely Co
host Anne. Hello everyone I am Anne Anne
cuckoldrus on blue sky and I am a cuckoldrus to my partner
cuckold James. I have been my preference for
(02:49):
black men as sexual partners, lovers, has been solidly, I
would say, 10 years. I am very much interested in
this conversation because like Damien, I don't know a lot, but
I know what I enjoy. But I think there's so much to
learn and so much to discuss, especially in the climate today
(03:13):
in our world. So that's why I'm here and thank
you, Crystal. Yeah, glad you're here.
Just because we are not doing this with cameras on.
All three of our gentlemen are black, and of course Anne and I
are white. We all enjoy various aspects of
interracial relating. So just so the listeners have
(03:33):
some context here. So one of my motivations, I
would say my major motivation for wanting to talk about this
is I, I started out as a writer and I still have a pretty active
blog. I started writing about my
experiences and my experiences with my husband, who's a cuck
and all of my lovers who are black.
(03:54):
And I was shocked. I should have been, but I was
shocked at how many white men, you know, got their hair up on
standing up on end and, you know, accusing me of why.
Why'd you marry a white guy if you like black guys so much?
And the question just incensed me, but I've tried to answer it
in an intelligent way. So I'm going to answer it here
(04:14):
today. I know it will not silence the
haters. But here's my answer #1 my very
first love, who was a profound love in college was a black man.
I was fully immersed in black culture all four years of my
college. And I just, I've been there ever
since. OK, so this isn't new to me.
(04:35):
The second thing is the criteriathat one chooses a husband is
probably slightly different thanthe criteria to choose a lover.
I mean, it is that not common sense?
That's why the question is so confusing to me.
I, you know, I want my lovers tobe good humans, but I don't need
to know their bank account. I, we're not going to merge
finances. You know, there's a lot of
(04:56):
things that you would, that you would explore with somebody
who's a potential partner that you wouldn't necessarily get
into with a lover. So, so for all you haters out
there that want to chastise me because I have a preference,
well, with you, that's all I cansay.
I could probably do that more diplomatically, but I didn't.
So I think Anne and I also had areally good discussion.
(05:20):
And Anne, I want to draw you in on this.
We talked extensively on anotherone of our episodes about the
differences between a preferencefor black men and a fetish for
black men. And Jack, you and I had a good
discussion, so I want you guys to chop that up a little bit.
What's the difference between a preference and a fetish?
I mean, for me, a preference is solid.
(05:40):
It doesn't change. It's has more meaning, has more
depth. And I was and when I wanted to
clarify, as I was thinking back in my intro, I was introduced to
my first black lover 20 years ago.
And I would say for the last 15,that has been my preference.
But just being in my demographicin my region, it hasn't been as
easy. So it's been longer than 10
(06:01):
years. I had to, I had to qualify.
I said that I'm like, why did I say 10 years?
It's been much longer in in the group chat, I'll put a pic.
I found James, found a picture of my first encounter, but I
don't know, I that's my indication.
That's what I think. Yeah, I think too.
And Jack, I really want you to speak to this because we had
(06:21):
such a good discussion about it,but I think I'm really.
And I have strong feelings aboutthe negativity of fetishizing.
To me, if you're a fetish, that's something that you pick
up and you put down and use for your own selfish reasons for
whatever. There's not really a lot of
consideration of the humanity ofthat other person or what that
(06:42):
other person's preferences mightbe, which, you know, puts it off
into a category that's using like using someone.
And I don't think that's the right way to if, if you're
interested in interracial play, don't do that.
It's demeaning and and no, and you don't want to be fetishized
for what you are. Well, I would probably guess
that none of these handsome gentlemen here liked like that
(07:05):
either, but I could be wrong. Now you know, I could be wrong.
Well, so for. Me.
I talked to Anne also and her husband about it.
I think there's a negativity surrounding fetishizing and I
think a lot of people are afraidto admit to fetishing because
they feel like there's a wrongness to it.
I'm a right for you, wrong for you kind of a person.
(07:27):
A preference is basically who I like, what I like, the reasons I
like, and it's more of an evolved, socially accepted kind
of a deal. One of the examples I use when I
talk to Ann about it is if you see your wife or you see your
partner, if you see anyone and you notice something physical
about them, something that kind of draws that primal, lustful
side of you out, that could be afetish, but it doesn't make it
(07:50):
negative. And I think sometimes when you
talk about interracial play, a lot of times people are afraid
to talk about that carnal desire, that being in society,
that society tells you not to, that it makes your racist or it
makes you a misogynist and stufflike that.
But if it's agreed upon between the couple, in between the bull
and between the partners in general, I don't see any
(08:12):
negativity involved in. And I think people just have to
admit and it is what it is and kind of move.
Forward. Well, you're.
Probably more enlightened in most of us.
Mr. Mocha, you had something to add here.
What's what? What do you say about that
finish idea? I believe there's a difference
between being fetishized and objectified.
Fetish to me is simply there's something about you that turns
(08:35):
me on. Like I love love my wife's red
hair. I've always been a huge fan of
redheads. That by definition is a fetish.
If you like black men, that is your fetish preference.
The word preference to me indicates I would rather this
over this, Like I'd rather a peanut butter sandwich over a
Turkey sandwich, but I'll eat a Turkey, you know?
(08:56):
So to me, when I think of preference, I mean, preference
is a word that to me does in my opinion, doesn't come into the
conversation because I don't think that that's the thing.
But fetish as a fetish, everybody, in my opinion,
everyone wants to be a fetish. If, if every super attractive
dude that you saw looked at yourred lipstick and went, Oh my
gosh, she is so sexy in that redlipstick.
(09:18):
Are you, you want to go, you know something?
Fuck all you guys for looking atmy lipstick.
Now if they looked at you and saw you as and dehumanized you
and removed your humanity, that to me is objectification.
So I don't really know any sane sexual people who don't want to
be fetishized. I've never met.
(09:38):
I've heard people say it. I've seen a super protracted
woman go Oh my God, I'm so tiredof all of these guys looking at
my ass while wearing booty shorts.
I've seen that. But if all of a sudden, excuse
me, that all of a sudden, years later, when her ass don't look
the same, she's wearing smaller shorts and hoping that she
becomes that fetish again and she talks about when she was in
her heyday. So I believe everybody wants to
(10:01):
be fetishized. Excuse me, I believe most people
want to be fetishized. I just think very few people
want to be objectified. I have one other thing, you
know, misses clear talk here, but let's be honest, a lot of
white people, when they think about black guys, it comes down
to one thing. If they're black, they got a
huge Dick and that's the only thing we're really interested
(10:21):
in. To me, I don't that dehumanizes.
Now maybe you guys all are proudof your big Dicks.
Well, what about the poor black guys don't have huge Dicks?
I mean, that's let's talk about that.
Let's be real here. OK, Pagan, I need you to weigh
in here. I I'm hearing the tons that I
agree with. Well, I'm also hearing, and I'm
sure the listeners are hearing, is the difference between the
way Mr. Mocha Jack approached this and how careful and
(10:46):
thoughtful I think you were coming at it, Crystal, which is
never a bad thing, which is I don't want to offend.
I don't want to objectify. As Mr. Mocha pointed out, I
don't want people to have negative emotion when I'm
hearing because I hear two sideshere, which is good.
That's why it's great to have these discussions where we have
different points of view. Crystal, you're coming from the
(11:09):
place that I think most white couples come from, which is this
turns me on. I'm trying to navigate it
ethically. I'm trying not to hurt people.
Clearly I'm getting vibes from these guys that they like what
we're doing, but how do I do this?
So I'm second guessing. To be white in this space is to
second guess. You're a good person.
OK, On the other side, I'm hearing Jack and Mr. Mocha say,
(11:32):
no, I'm good. That's how I would sum it up.
And so how do you navigate thosetwo things?
So for the listeners, I would just like to throw out Never
assume because I'm with Jack andMr. Mocha.
By the way, objectification to me is different from
fetishization. There's a laziness around it
where fetishization is more thanlikely looked at as
objectification. The only thing I disagree with
(11:55):
Mr. Mocha on is most people do not want to be fetishized for
the reason I just said. They put in their head what Mr.
Mocha pointed out. Objectification is
fetishization. That's negative.
I don't want that. But by Mr. Mocha's definition,
which I agree with, it does not have to include it.
It means you have a specific thing about someone that you
find sexually arousing. No one gets upset when that's
(12:17):
big boobs. No one gets upset when that's
blonde hair. But now let's talk about race.
Why? It's touch is race play is an
issue that inspires strong responses due to what's being
closely linked to personal and frankly, collective identities
for people. So it's not just my experience
as a black person now, it's the collective experience of Black
(12:38):
people. And some black people are not
going to like that I do this. Some are going to like it.
That puts extra weight that boobs and blonde hair or Mr.
Mocha's red lipstick example does not have on it.
We 3 gentlemen here look at it the same way as the boobs and
the lipstick and the blonde hair.
It's a thing that's a physical trait that you're attracted to
(12:58):
and you can be unapologetic about it.
And that's why to a certain extent, and I'm not going to
speak for these other guys, racecoming into our play is not an
issue for us. So that's the gentleman here.
What I'm hearing. We're cool with it as long as it
doesn't become a thing where I'mbeing objectified, as you
pointed out, Crystal with the Dick size.
But I will just leave with this.Every couple should ask the
(13:20):
questions that you're asking. Every couple who's listening to
this is probably already asking those questions, or else why
would you be here? And that's a good thing.
And never assume that a black gentleman or any other person of
color that you're engaging in a race play with is like us.
There are many who are offended.There are many who feel that
fetishization is a objectification, and while we
(13:42):
are disagreeing with that and wecan show our math, just know
that that is not necessarily writ large in the community
where you can go forward. You always have to communicate
and find out where a person's line is.
Yeah, that was that was really agreat explanation.
I appreciate all three of you guys and of course you too.
And here's the thing that I think it's different,
potentially different in our experiences.
(14:04):
We as white women who have a preference for black men, black
lovers, we are. And especially if you're in the
public space like I am with podcasting and blogging, we
become the target of the hate. I don't know if you guys
experience that or not, but it'sthe white men that come at me
relentlessly about what's wrong with you.
(14:29):
That's that's the tone and that's the tenor of it.
And so I'm not really sure. You guys tell me, you tell us,
are you subject? I mean, I'd get it.
If you're black in America, you're going to get hate from
someone because there's a lot ofracists in this country, which
is really sad. I mean, as far as lifestyle is
concerned, I mean, I would think, and I'm just projecting
(14:50):
my own imagination on this, but I would think being idolized by
a crap ton of women like Anna and I that love you guys, you
know, probably a good thing. I don't know, you know, I but
unless you're in the end, maybe I'll direct this to Mr. MO
because he's also in the public space.
You know, you can talk about your, you know, are you and your
(15:13):
wife because you're an interracial couple?
Do you, are you the target of hate comments on your podcast?
And you know. What that?
Might be a difference in the experience right there.
So I'll definitely say we've definitely got some attention.
And it is it's going to happen. It is going to happen.
You know, I get heat from black women because I'm married to a
(15:34):
white woman. I walk into a place with my wife
and they look at me like I just kicked a dog.
You know, we've gone to to parties.
And you know, one thing that a lot of people don't realize,
it's just becoming fashionable to openly play with black guys.
I I. So you.
Remember the when I would go to a party?
(15:56):
I'm sorry. So you.
Remember the exclusion days where black men were exclusive?
OK, go ahead. Go ahead.
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
And it's not, and it's the interesting thing is it was, it
wasn't so much, it was exclusion.
But at the same time, I can recall going to parties where I,
one of the parties that I remembered the most, it was a
New Year's Eve party many moons ago.
And this is when I was a little younger.
(16:17):
And I went in and I remember walking through this party with
no shirt on and, and there were so many females that were
touching me. They were part of the white
couple, but none of them would play with me.
No, I have husbands. When I go to the bathroom, Hey,
you know, you saw my wife. Here's my number.
Or I'd have, you know, people like trying to get my attention
to get me to go off somewhere and have a conversation about
(16:38):
playing with them. So it wasn't the thing that they
could openly do. And here's the thing, I was
never offended by that. Like I was never offended by
that because I understood I'm not socially, I'm not a social
half wit. I understand that you still have
friends. And no matter how many of us say
we don't give a fuck what peoplethink, that's a lie.
We give a fuck what people think.
Everybody gives a fuck. To a certain extent, no, Now we
(17:00):
do get past certain things, but there, there came a point in all
of our lives where we passed that.
And now I see a lot of those couples now who openly tell
black people play with black guys.
So I know it feels like it's nota strange thing to me.
Going back to what you said earlier about, you know, how
does it feel when white people look at you and assume you have
a big Dick? Well, you know, if I didn't have
one, it's the same thing as, youknow, what women go through
(17:22):
every day. You know, as black people, we
grew up thinking that every white chick sucked Dick and she
did it good. And no, black chicks suck Dick
and they couldn't. The best blowjob ever got in my
life was a black chick. And I met white women who said
they didn't suck Dick. But so, so why would I as a
black man, be offended that somebody who looks at me and
assume that I've got a huge Dickthat's like me looking at you
(17:43):
and assuming that you're super intelligent?
I mean, I might be right, I might be wrong.
I'd rather you look at me and assume something positive about
me as opposed to look at me and assuming that I smell like, you
know, you know, wet dog or something like that.
You know, if I rather choose what you're going to assume
about me, let it be the positive.
So from my standpoint, I am very, I'm very understanding of
(18:09):
how people became toward me. But this extreme is better than
the old extreme, You know, now that people can openly kind of
reach for us. OK here, I'm here to be touched.
If I like you, you know, I'm OK with it.
Treat me like a fat, fetishize me, I'm OK with it.
OK. And that is our invitation to
go, OK. So what I was asking about with
(18:31):
the exclusion part was I meant more some smoke of the public
exclusion where you will be on awebsite and someone would have
on their profile no black men wein.
But your inbox will be full of those people who would say no
black men. The inbox would be your club
experience, would be people who look like they were afraid to
(18:54):
talk to you. But then when you were alone or
you would somewhere they can talk to you privately, they
would change numbers like you said.
That's what I meant those days, yeah.
Yeah. But those also be the ones that
tell you why you're not like most black when you.
Got that line too, yeah. Wow you speak so well.
They went to the same school youdid mean by you got.
To be kidding, I mean by that. Just tell us what?
(19:17):
Tell us what they mean. But when somebody says that,
what do they mean by that? I mean, you come on.
Like most black, like most blackguys.
Like, what do they mean by that?Yeah, When you hear that.
Well, they they expect us to sound like the Jive Turkey on
TV. They expect us to sound like the
the, the airplane, the guy that the media.
Told them that we are, you know,they're like, Oh yeah.
Well. They're actually speaking to a
(19:39):
dialect or an. Accent to a stereotype.
They're speaking to a media driven stereotype from the 70s
eighties. They think it's like that movie
Airplane. Excuse me, Stewart.
Soul. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There you go. That's.
Me, yeah. And I'm with, I'm with what I
think Mr. Mocha's sentiment is, which is as not cool as that is,
(19:59):
not everyone is understanding what they're doing and meaning
harm. Some people actually think
they're delivering a compliment when they do that.
They don't. I'm an intention over impact
person. I have many people in my life
and I've met many people that are impact over intention.
They don't give a fuck what yourintention is.
They won't know that the impact of them was bad and they're
(20:19):
going to hold you to it. I'm more did you mean to step on
my shoe? Because if you didn't, it's all
good. But if you pointed at my shoe
and walked across the room to step on it and stomp on it,
well, that's different. And I think some of these people
have no intention to step on shoes.
They're they think they're just a little ignorant about what
their comments mean. Yeah, a little ignorant.
It's like the whole white fragility thing, like not
(20:43):
knowing what to say. And if you say something and
your words come out the wrong way, then you're going to be
targeted as a racist or you know, and you had no intention,
you know, that's not in your heart or what you meant to say.
So sometimes people just don't say anything because there's the
people are afraid to have dialogue because they're afraid
(21:04):
that what they ask is going to come back.
You know, they're going to be misconstrued When you meet
somebody offended. Yeah, Yeah.
But when you meet gentlemen who are there and want you to learn
what you know, that's great. You know, you learn so much and
you're not. They don't question you or make
you feel silly if you ask a question.
And so here's a question. They prefer for you to ask the
(21:26):
question then to go into the media driven stereotype, even if
the question is to clear up the media driven stereotype.
So. You just want somebody to be
open and honest and just ask what they're confused about.
And I think a lot of white people are not willing to do
that, which is why it's hard to talk about race in America.
Let me ask you guys this, as so far as I know, all three of you
(21:47):
are partnered with white women. Do they get pushed back?
Do they get any of the slings and arrows that I get because
I'm in the public arena or not? Yes, I took my partner to church
with me and if you ever want to see evil stares from black
women, go to a black church. And I mean she sit there and see
(22:11):
this is I didn't see it. She saw every single one of them
and I was like, welcome, it'll be alright.
It seems fine. Oh my goodness, in a House of
God. In a House of God so.
Much hate coming out of those houses these days.
Yeah, I don't, I don't want to forget Mr. Mocha.
I know he had spoken a little bit about his partnership and
(22:33):
how he's gone through some stuffin the public eye.
He I'm not partnered with a white woman.
I'm just partnered. You heard a term Unicorn.
I'm partnered with a black womanwho packs my bags to go fuck
white women as flash Mocha. That's a real Unicorn, folks.
That's about rare. Yeah.
So I'm not partners with a whitewoman, but I predominantly have
(22:56):
all of my lifestyle experiences with white women.
We're talking the 98th percentile probably.
So that's my experience. But I don't.
I don't have to go through that in a vanilla setting.
Light church. Like I would ever step foot into
a church, I'd burst into flames.Yeah, me too.
Me too. I just had another question that
I, I was dying. Oh, I would like to before I
forget this particular thing, I would really, really like it.
(23:19):
If you're listening to this podcast and you have an opinion
on any of this, how do you, you handle racial tension or racial
interest in your life? I would really, really be
interested to know our listenersand what they, what their
experience is and how it may be the same or differ from what
you've heard here. So please, please feel free to
(23:40):
comment or contact any of the people on this podcast because
their information will be in theshow notes.
So I just wanted to throw that out there before we forget.
Yeah, that what you just said, Crystal, by the way, is part of
why I was excited about this call with you guys because and I
didn't forgive me, I didn't say this in my intro, but I would, I
(24:01):
would call myself proficient in the area of race play.
And one of the things that we didn't talk about the top is
what we even mean by that term. Yes, please.
So I'm of the opinion that there's two ways to look at
this. One definition that I have seen
and on many occasions is the definition is race plays where
(24:23):
there's a sexual practice where either there's like a real or
imagined racial background of one or more of the people
involved. And it's under the umbrella of
BDSM. So there's a power imbalance
through the lens of race and in a scene or whatever.
And that could be like slurs, that could be narratives, that
could be even objects that has are laden with racial history.
(24:44):
You know, I know people who use bondage handcuffs, but I know
people who are involved in a race play, they use stocks and
iron cuffs that are actually antiques.
They're trying to use that as anaspect of their play.
So that's one definition. I'm not alone, I know in this
room because I've talked to you guys, but I think there's a
(25:05):
broader definition of race play.You've involved race in your
play, full stop. That means I like black guys,
I'm into Asian chicks, White girls are hot.
To me, that adds a little extra Zing to it, in my opinion.
You've already stepped in the pool with the rest of the race
players, and there's a deep end of that pool.
I swim in the deep end. I slim in the shallow end.
(25:25):
I also don't even get in the pool with some partners because
they're not into it. So that's just one of the things
that I. Wanted.
Yeah, yeah, I'm a, I'm a scuba. Savvy.
Yes. But what you just said, Crystal,
about the racial things coming into play, that's one of the
most fascinating things to me. Why am I into it?
What are the things that are going on inside of me
(25:46):
psychologically? What am I dealing with as a
black man who's lived in Americafor half a century now?
And how am I exercising demons, for lack of a better term,
through this positive sexual experience with a consensual
partner? How are they exercising their
demons with me? And the fact that they've lived
in America as a white person andthey they've got a racist
(26:09):
grandfather who said all that shit or the things that they've
done in their past, how are theydoing something, again,
positively, that is allowing them to deal with bigger things?
Because I'm a sapiosexual, that's constantly on my mind.
And especially as political climates change, I've been in a
lifestyle long enough to see things ebb and flow.
And the 90s, for instance, aren't the same as right now.
(26:31):
We're in much more conservative times.
We're in much more, you know, volatile racial environments in
terms of these discussions. So what was acceptable in public
eye five years ago even is not as much right now.
And that ebb and flow is fascinating to me, too.
So yeah, I'm interested in all that.
And you said a huge mouthful right there, which is, I'm so
(26:53):
grateful to you for that. I neglected to mention, I have
mentioned it on other podcasts, but my background is I came from
a profoundly racist family. My mother was born in Cotton
Plan, Arkansas, and all that comes with that.
And, you know, she told me she'drather see me dead than to be
with my black boyfriend in college when I showed her a
(27:13):
picture. And so that's the environment
that I came from. I never had a conscious thought
that I was, that I was with him knowing that she was a racist
because he's black. I never had that kind of
response to it. Maybe something deep in my
psyche was there, but it was never like that.
And then ironically, I'm marriedto a man who is super alpha in
his data day life, but when I'm with a black lover, he's super
(27:37):
submissive and he sees it as pure reparations that he is
going to serve the superior black man.
So we've come really full circlefrom my background and, and it's
genuine for him. It's genuine, you know, he sees
all my black lovers as superior men.
And it's very interesting. I mean, we could probably talk
(27:58):
to you Pagan for about 100 hourson that whole thing.
But, and really, I don't care ifit's if it's a subconscious
reparations on my own part because my family was so racist.
It doesn't matter to me. All I know is that I stood by my
black lover in college and I andI do what I do today.
And I'm sorry for my mother. She's no longer alive.
(28:20):
But I'm sorry that there are people in this country that live
with that kind of hate for generations.
And then he tried to pass it, pass it on to the next
generations. Yeah, there's a lot to uncover
there. So I just curious, throw that
out there cuz. I.
Yeah, that's that's fascinating and also super honest in ways
that I just rarely hear. I'm curious if Anne, if any of
(28:41):
that resonates with you or do you even look into that mirror
and try to go deeper and like where it comes from for you?
Or do you kind of like keep it light, you know?
You know, I haven't had sometimes subconsciously I go
deeper. I haven't had any partners where
I've had an extended relationship where I could
really in the bedroom explore that.
(29:02):
I think you've pushed my boundaries more than anybody,
like when we I first got to knowyou, but I feel like I really
appreciate the black lovers thatI have.
And I have never gotten into anysort of situation where, you
know, I feel like I'm serving them or I'm owing them because
(29:24):
it's such a mutual connection. However, the respect is so great
because I feel like your lived experiences are so much more.
I feel like my appreciation for black men has so much more to do
than with the color of your skinbecause you've experienced so
much more than I will have ever experienced, you know, from you
know, And so I'm so that's why I'm here is because I'm
(29:46):
learning. You know, I think if I had a
lover who really wanted to explore kind of the BDSM role
and I would be very open to it, you know, I, I wouldn't be
afraid. I would be very open to it.
And I think as far as, you know,James serving a black man, you
know, because he feels reparation, he just does it out
of respect, you know, as a human.
(30:08):
And so we've never gone that far, but then we haven't had the
partners to experience that with.
And I suppose I could ask that question, you know, is this
something that you would like todo and open it up?
Because they may be afraid to say it or suggest it because,
you know, they don't want to freak me out.
So I think it has a lot to do with communication.
(30:29):
But having this conversation is going to help me be more open is
like Jackson, you just have to ask the question.
It's. Going to be a lot of brothers
that hear you on this podcast and they're going to hit you up
so. God, maybe that's what we wish.
I guess for me, when it comes tothe idea of race play, it's kind
of a misconception because most people don't realize that it's
(30:50):
easy to be in there then not be in there because of the people.
Kind of like you said, Crystal, like you haven't consciously
thought about it and you haven'treally explored like the
subconscious. If there becomes an Ave. for it,
you'll see that it kind of peeksin and out whether you really
realize it or not. And then once you kind of, in my
(31:11):
experience, once I grabbed that first thread and made that first
connection, had that first conversation and had that first
experience, it's a Pandora's boxsituation because you realize
that you are far more into it than you realize you are.
But also it's so much easier andmore honest to be in that space
and say those things and admit to those attractions and then
(31:34):
not to be in that place. And once you're there, you're
there. It doesn't matter if you're like
on a scale of one to 10A2, because a 2 will become a four
really fast and a four become a six pretty quick too.
But it's really, really easy to be there once you start being
honest with yourself. And so once you start saying,
hey, I like red hair, that red hair is going to turn into red
hair, green eyes, and then it's going to turn into a cultural
(31:55):
experience that you kind of justembrace for yourself and for
your partner. Yeah, I think there's a lot of,
there's so much, so much to discuss.
This is why I really hope that you listeners please write
comments and let us share your thoughts on this whole
discussion. I mean, I feel like we could sit
here and talk about this for another 10 hours, but we
probably won't. And I, you know, the other thing
(32:17):
that I recognized while you werespeaking, Jack, is that my
racist background, when I can hear my own mother say she'd
rather see me dead than with a black man, it's made me like
hugely militant. I mean, really, please be racist
around me. I will just rip your friggin
face off. And I don't really like that
part of myself. But I think that's what has come
(32:38):
out of all of it for me. I'm not passive around racists.
And, you know, the environment that we're in right now is kind
of dangerous because there's a whole lot of racists that would
like to RIP my face off too. So I have to, you know, I have
to be careful where I get militant.
But it's just like, you know, you can't, you're not going to
push me off my point of view. You know, I've, I had to
(33:02):
literally sort of divorce my ownmother to live the life that I
thought was right for me. And yeah, so all.
Right, that's that that's a that's one of the things too
that I think people, if you takea moment, think about what
Crystal just said, I think we could be thankful that you have
(33:23):
found other outlets because I would who dare say if you didn't
have these outlets, we would be getting militant crystal out
there on the streets much more. And y'all don't want that smoke?
No, you don't. The fact that the fact that you
have found you found this sexualAve. to release the pressure
valve, I think it's something that should not go unsaid about
(33:46):
all of this. You know, there are, I know
people who have literally been assaulted and have trauma in
their history that enjoy consensual non consent in their
BDSM. And on the surface, I couldn't,
I'm sure many people would look at that and go, why the hell
would you play in an arena that you have trauma around and that
(34:08):
hurts you so badly. And if you take 5 seconds to
research it or talk to one of these people, you'll find out
that this is one of the healthy ways where they're taking the
reins of their trauma. They are controlling what they
had no control over and they're healing from it.
This has been studied over and over in many different
disciplines. BDSM in general is an Ave. by
(34:30):
which many people heal and take control of things that they
don't have control over. So race play is, I think,
definitely one of those things. To a certain extent, we are
figuring out things psychologically or we're
addressing things in our past, much like your mom or other
things that we've experienced asBlack men.
And in this safe environment with consenting people, I think
(34:54):
a lot of healing and benefit cancome from it.
And when you judge it, more thanlikely, I got to be honest,
you're probably like Hamilton. You're not in the room where it
happens. When you judge it, you think all
these white women are fetishizing these guys in a
negative objectification way. OK, that sounds like a person
who's not in the room. You've watched porn, you've read
about it, you've made a decision.
(35:15):
You never experienced it becauseif you're in the room with these
women, they're putting us on a pedestal, treating us like
kings, lauding us above their husbands.
It's the opposite of that. So that's one of the things I
would point out for those who are listening, who are
uninitiated, who don't know. There's a lot of positivity
there, and don't let other people who have an experience to
(35:36):
tell you otherwise. Absolutely true, and I'll add
one more thing before we wrap this up.
I'm confessing to the world right now that I've had so many
instances over the years. I wish my mother could have had
a black lover at some time in her life.
It would have healed her hating heart and she would have been
swept up in the mystery of it. I just have to think that she
(35:58):
would. I've had the most beautiful
physical, spiritual, intellectual encounters with
black men over the course of my life.
And that's not to say I don't have those things with my
husband. I absolutely do.
But it's different. It's just different.
And especially when he, you know, he wants to also serve the
black man. So I wish, you know, and I, I'm
a little embarrassed to say that, but I wish, maybe what I'm
(36:20):
saying is that I wish all the deep racists would interact with
black people more. You don't have to screw them,
But how about talking to them? How about expanding your mind a
little bit and finding out what beautiful experiences that you
could have too? And I wish my mother would have
been open minded enough to do that.
I think it would have changed who she was as a person.
(36:41):
Thank you all so much for being willing to share some of your
experience here. This is not an easy topic to
take on and I deeply appreciate you being here and being willing
to be open and honest about it. Any parting words from anybody?
I'll just say thank you for thisopportunity and for the bravery
that you have to talk about this.
This is a subject that I think there's a lot of vitriol,
(37:03):
there's a lot of opinions, as I said before, and I think that
the only way to combat that is by us taking opportunities to
speak up. We can't complain about the fact
that people take race play a certain way if we're not giving
them positive examples of what it is like.
And I think this is one of thoseopportunities that you've taken
to do that, and I'm just glad tobe a part of it.
(37:25):
And I will put a plug in that I believe Mr. Mocha is going to
have another part to this particular subject in the
series, but I'll let Crystal speak on that.
But I'm looking forward to that as well to just put more
positive energy out there about this.
Yes, I totally neglected to say that at the top of the show, but
Mr. Moga has a very lovely podcast that he does with his
(37:46):
wife. And we wanted to break this up
into two parts because his audience is a little bit
different than you guys that listen to mine.
And so he's going to take it from another point of view.
And so if you're interested in the race discussion, please,
please, please. We will attach links to his
podcast and and his episode oncewe record that in the show notes
(38:06):
here so that you can find it. But we would love your
interaction. And I'm sure he has, he has a
lot of great things to say aboutthis as well.
Anybody else? Thank you, Crystal, really
appreciate being part of this. Well, I appreciate all you guys.
You know, it wouldn't happen unless you were all willing to
(38:27):
carve out time of your busy lives and come here and yak
about this. But I think it could benefit a
lot of people potentially. And that's my hope.
That's my hope. Absolutely.
Thank you very much. Yeah, thank.
Thank you, guys. Stay tuned for Part 2.
It'll be Mr. Mocha's podcast. And like I said, I will make
sure that the show notes includeall of that information so you
can get the follow up discussion.
(38:47):
Now that we've sort of opened the door, we'll see what horses
run through it on his podcast. Balls, balls run through.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What bulls?
Yeah, what bulls. All right, thank you, guys.
I appreciate you. Thank.
You. Thank you.
Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to
(39:13):
Beyond Monogamy with Crystal Welch.
We really appreciate you spending a little bit of time
with us today. We explored the difference
between a fetish and a preference, how being raised in
a racist household doesn't always lead to becoming a
racist, and the joy that comes from finding the magic in
interracial friendships as we have.
If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to
(39:34):
follow us so you don't miss a thing next time.
Mr. Mocha will be giving us a raw and honest look at race play
from the Black Bulls perspectiveand sharing how they really feel
about it. Trust me, you don't want to miss
this one. It will be on his podcast so be
sure to follow him and it will be His link will be listed in
the show notes as well as all ofour other guests.
(39:55):
We'd love to hear from you. You can find us on Spotify or
Apple, wherever you find your podcasts.
Please leave us your thoughts oryour questions.
We might even feature them in the next episode.
Or shoot us a message with any future topics that you would
like to hear us cover. Don't forget to subscribe and
leave a quick review. It really helps more people find
the show. And thank you for listening.
(40:17):
We'll see you next time.
Hey everybody, I just wanted to give you a quick notice.
I am starting to offer a one-on-one coaching session.
It's called Ask Crystal. It is coaching for individuals
and couples as they explore ethical non monogamy.
Whatever your dynamic is. I've been living in this dynamic
for 10 years and I've learned a ton and I hope to share some of
that wisdom with you in the hopes that it will help you.
(00:30):
So you'll get the details in theshow notes and I hope to see you
there. Hello everybody.
It's Crystal Welch with Beyond Monogamy with Crystal Welch, and
I'm super excited to have four important guests here today.
I've been talking with a number of my friends and having my own
experiences about race and race play in the lifestyle, and I
(00:53):
think this is an incredibly important discussion.
Not a lot of people want to takeit on.
I get quite a lot of yap from white men who are offended by
the fact that I am black only. So I want to, I want to open up
that topic and talk about it. So I'm going to have everybody
introduce themselves. This is an All Star cast.
(01:16):
They're very well known and verywell respected people in our
circle. And I'm just honored that all of
you are here. And so I'm going to start with
you, Mr. Pagan. Hello everybody.
I'm Pagan. Or you can reach me on Twitter
at at Pagan Black Bull. And I'm very happy to be here
with friends talking about something that I feel like isn't
(01:38):
talked about enough. But I think that's going to
change today. Great.
Thanks for joining. Pagan.
Jack, let's hear from you. Good morning, good afternoon.
Good evening everyone. I am Jack, Jenna and Jack on any
former social media from Houston. 50 year old partner
Bull. Thanks for having me.
All right. Thank you for being here.
And the famous Mr. Mocha himselfis here.
(01:59):
I get the famous word. Oh no.
Hello everybody, I am Mr. Mocha from the Old Faces podcast.
I am a. Married, stag, you know,
whatever works at the moment. And I, I am interested in this
topic because it's something that my listeners have asked
about and I don't have a whole lot of knowledge on it because
even though I am into interracial play, I didn't know
(02:22):
if it was considered race play. So I'm here to learn and ask
questions. Great.
Thank you for being here I appreciate it and my lovely Co
host Anne. Hello everyone I am Anne Anne
cuckoldrus on blue sky and I am a cuckoldrus to my partner
cuckold James. I have been my preference for
(02:49):
black men as sexual partners, lovers, has been solidly, I
would say, 10 years. I am very much interested in
this conversation because like Damien, I don't know a lot, but
I know what I enjoy. But I think there's so much to
learn and so much to discuss, especially in the climate today
(03:13):
in our world. So that's why I'm here and thank
you, Crystal. Yeah, glad you're here.
Just because we are not doing this with cameras on.
All three of our gentlemen are black, and of course Anne and I
are white. We all enjoy various aspects of
interracial relating. So just so the listeners have
(03:33):
some context here. So one of my motivations, I
would say my major motivation for wanting to talk about this
is I, I started out as a writer and I still have a pretty active
blog. I started writing about my
experiences and my experiences with my husband, who's a cuck
and all of my lovers who are black.
(03:54):
And I was shocked. I should have been, but I was
shocked at how many white men, you know, got their hair up on
standing up on end and, you know, accusing me of why.
Why'd you marry a white guy if you like black guys so much?
And the question just incensed me, but I've tried to answer it
in an intelligent way. So I'm going to answer it here
(04:14):
today. I know it will not silence the
haters. But here's my answer #1 my very
first love, who was a profound love in college was a black man.
I was fully immersed in black culture all four years of my
college. And I just, I've been there ever
since. OK, so this isn't new to me.
(04:35):
The second thing is the criteriathat one chooses a husband is
probably slightly different thanthe criteria to choose a lover.
I mean, it is that not common sense?
That's why the question is so confusing to me.
I, you know, I want my lovers tobe good humans, but I don't need
to know their bank account. I, we're not going to merge
finances. You know, there's a lot of
(04:56):
things that you would, that you would explore with somebody
who's a potential partner that you wouldn't necessarily get
into with a lover. So, so for all you haters out
there that want to chastise me because I have a preference,
well, with you, that's all I cansay.
I could probably do that more diplomatically, but I didn't.
So I think Anne and I also had areally good discussion.
(05:20):
And Anne, I want to draw you in on this.
We talked extensively on anotherone of our episodes about the
differences between a preferencefor black men and a fetish for
black men. And Jack, you and I had a good
discussion, so I want you guys to chop that up a little bit.
What's the difference between a preference and a fetish?
I mean, for me, a preference is solid.
(05:40):
It doesn't change. It's has more meaning, has more
depth. And I was and when I wanted to
clarify, as I was thinking back in my intro, I was introduced to
my first black lover 20 years ago.
And I would say for the last 15,that has been my preference.
But just being in my demographicin my region, it hasn't been as
easy. So it's been longer than 10
(06:01):
years. I had to, I had to qualify.
I said that I'm like, why did I say 10 years?
It's been much longer in in the group chat, I'll put a pic.
I found James, found a picture of my first encounter, but I
don't know, I that's my indication.
That's what I think. Yeah, I think too.
And Jack, I really want you to speak to this because we had
(06:21):
such a good discussion about it,but I think I'm really.
And I have strong feelings aboutthe negativity of fetishizing.
To me, if you're a fetish, that's something that you pick
up and you put down and use for your own selfish reasons for
whatever. There's not really a lot of
consideration of the humanity ofthat other person or what that
(06:42):
other person's preferences mightbe, which, you know, puts it off
into a category that's using like using someone.
And I don't think that's the right way to if, if you're
interested in interracial play, don't do that.
It's demeaning and and no, and you don't want to be fetishized
for what you are. Well, I would probably guess
that none of these handsome gentlemen here liked like that
(07:05):
either, but I could be wrong. Now you know, I could be wrong.
Well, so for. Me.
I talked to Anne also and her husband about it.
I think there's a negativity surrounding fetishizing and I
think a lot of people are afraidto admit to fetishing because
they feel like there's a wrongness to it.
I'm a right for you, wrong for you kind of a person.
(07:27):
A preference is basically who I like, what I like, the reasons I
like, and it's more of an evolved, socially accepted kind
of a deal. One of the examples I use when I
talk to Ann about it is if you see your wife or you see your
partner, if you see anyone and you notice something physical
about them, something that kind of draws that primal, lustful
side of you out, that could be afetish, but it doesn't make it
(07:50):
negative. And I think sometimes when you
talk about interracial play, a lot of times people are afraid
to talk about that carnal desire, that being in society,
that society tells you not to, that it makes your racist or it
makes you a misogynist and stufflike that.
But if it's agreed upon between the couple, in between the bull
and between the partners in general, I don't see any
(08:12):
negativity involved in. And I think people just have to
admit and it is what it is and kind of move.
Forward. Well, you're.
Probably more enlightened in most of us.
Mr. Mocha, you had something to add here.
What's what? What do you say about that
finish idea? I believe there's a difference
between being fetishized and objectified.
Fetish to me is simply there's something about you that turns
(08:35):
me on. Like I love love my wife's red
hair. I've always been a huge fan of
redheads. That by definition is a fetish.
If you like black men, that is your fetish preference.
The word preference to me indicates I would rather this
over this, Like I'd rather a peanut butter sandwich over a
Turkey sandwich, but I'll eat a Turkey, you know?
(08:56):
So to me, when I think of preference, I mean, preference
is a word that to me does in my opinion, doesn't come into the
conversation because I don't think that that's the thing.
But fetish as a fetish, everybody, in my opinion,
everyone wants to be a fetish. If, if every super attractive
dude that you saw looked at yourred lipstick and went, Oh my
gosh, she is so sexy in that redlipstick.
(09:18):
Are you, you want to go, you know something?
Fuck all you guys for looking atmy lipstick.
Now if they looked at you and saw you as and dehumanized you
and removed your humanity, that to me is objectification.
So I don't really know any sane sexual people who don't want to
be fetishized. I've never met.
(09:38):
I've heard people say it. I've seen a super protracted
woman go Oh my God, I'm so tiredof all of these guys looking at
my ass while wearing booty shorts.
I've seen that. But if all of a sudden, excuse
me, that all of a sudden, years later, when her ass don't look
the same, she's wearing smaller shorts and hoping that she
becomes that fetish again and she talks about when she was in
her heyday. So I believe everybody wants to
(10:01):
be fetishized. Excuse me, I believe most people
want to be fetishized. I just think very few people
want to be objectified. I have one other thing, you
know, misses clear talk here, but let's be honest, a lot of
white people, when they think about black guys, it comes down
to one thing. If they're black, they got a
huge Dick and that's the only thing we're really interested
(10:21):
in. To me, I don't that dehumanizes.
Now maybe you guys all are proudof your big Dicks.
Well, what about the poor black guys don't have huge Dicks?
I mean, that's let's talk about that.
Let's be real here. OK, Pagan, I need you to weigh
in here. I I'm hearing the tons that I
agree with. Well, I'm also hearing, and I'm
sure the listeners are hearing, is the difference between the
way Mr. Mocha Jack approached this and how careful and
(10:46):
thoughtful I think you were coming at it, Crystal, which is
never a bad thing, which is I don't want to offend.
I don't want to objectify. As Mr. Mocha pointed out, I
don't want people to have negative emotion when I'm
hearing because I hear two sideshere, which is good.
That's why it's great to have these discussions where we have
different points of view. Crystal, you're coming from the
(11:09):
place that I think most white couples come from, which is this
turns me on. I'm trying to navigate it
ethically. I'm trying not to hurt people.
Clearly I'm getting vibes from these guys that they like what
we're doing, but how do I do this?
So I'm second guessing. To be white in this space is to
second guess. You're a good person.
OK, On the other side, I'm hearing Jack and Mr. Mocha say,
(11:32):
no, I'm good. That's how I would sum it up.
And so how do you navigate thosetwo things?
So for the listeners, I would just like to throw out Never
assume because I'm with Jack andMr. Mocha.
By the way, objectification to me is different from
fetishization. There's a laziness around it
where fetishization is more thanlikely looked at as
objectification. The only thing I disagree with
(11:55):
Mr. Mocha on is most people do not want to be fetishized for
the reason I just said. They put in their head what Mr.
Mocha pointed out. Objectification is
fetishization. That's negative.
I don't want that. But by Mr. Mocha's definition,
which I agree with, it does not have to include it.
It means you have a specific thing about someone that you
find sexually arousing. No one gets upset when that's
(12:17):
big boobs. No one gets upset when that's
blonde hair. But now let's talk about race.
Why? It's touch is race play is an
issue that inspires strong responses due to what's being
closely linked to personal and frankly, collective identities
for people. So it's not just my experience
as a black person now, it's the collective experience of Black
(12:38):
people. And some black people are not
going to like that I do this. Some are going to like it.
That puts extra weight that boobs and blonde hair or Mr.
Mocha's red lipstick example does not have on it.
We 3 gentlemen here look at it the same way as the boobs and
the lipstick and the blonde hair.
It's a thing that's a physical trait that you're attracted to
(12:58):
and you can be unapologetic about it.
And that's why to a certain extent, and I'm not going to
speak for these other guys, racecoming into our play is not an
issue for us. So that's the gentleman here.
What I'm hearing. We're cool with it as long as it
doesn't become a thing where I'mbeing objectified, as you
pointed out, Crystal with the Dick size.
But I will just leave with this.Every couple should ask the
(13:20):
questions that you're asking. Every couple who's listening to
this is probably already asking those questions, or else why
would you be here? And that's a good thing.
And never assume that a black gentleman or any other person of
color that you're engaging in a race play with is like us.
There are many who are offended.There are many who feel that
fetishization is a objectification, and while we
(13:42):
are disagreeing with that and wecan show our math, just know
that that is not necessarily writ large in the community
where you can go forward. You always have to communicate
and find out where a person's line is.
Yeah, that was that was really agreat explanation.
I appreciate all three of you guys and of course you too.
And here's the thing that I think it's different,
potentially different in our experiences.
(14:04):
We as white women who have a preference for black men, black
lovers, we are. And especially if you're in the
public space like I am with podcasting and blogging, we
become the target of the hate. I don't know if you guys
experience that or not, but it'sthe white men that come at me
relentlessly about what's wrong with you.
(14:29):
That's that's the tone and that's the tenor of it.
And so I'm not really sure. You guys tell me, you tell us,
are you subject? I mean, I'd get it.
If you're black in America, you're going to get hate from
someone because there's a lot ofracists in this country, which
is really sad. I mean, as far as lifestyle is
concerned, I mean, I would think, and I'm just projecting
(14:50):
my own imagination on this, but I would think being idolized by
a crap ton of women like Anna and I that love you guys, you
know, probably a good thing. I don't know, you know, I but
unless you're in the end, maybe I'll direct this to Mr. MO
because he's also in the public space.
You know, you can talk about your, you know, are you and your
(15:13):
wife because you're an interracial couple?
Do you, are you the target of hate comments on your podcast?
And you know. What that?
Might be a difference in the experience right there.
So I'll definitely say we've definitely got some attention.
And it is it's going to happen. It is going to happen.
You know, I get heat from black women because I'm married to a
(15:34):
white woman. I walk into a place with my wife
and they look at me like I just kicked a dog.
You know, we've gone to to parties.
And you know, one thing that a lot of people don't realize,
it's just becoming fashionable to openly play with black guys.
I I. So you.
Remember the when I would go to a party?
(15:56):
I'm sorry. So you.
Remember the exclusion days where black men were exclusive?
OK, go ahead. Go ahead.
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
And it's not, and it's the interesting thing is it was, it
wasn't so much, it was exclusion.
But at the same time, I can recall going to parties where I,
one of the parties that I remembered the most, it was a
New Year's Eve party many moons ago.
And this is when I was a little younger.
(16:17):
And I went in and I remember walking through this party with
no shirt on and, and there were so many females that were
touching me. They were part of the white
couple, but none of them would play with me.
No, I have husbands. When I go to the bathroom, Hey,
you know, you saw my wife. Here's my number.
Or I'd have, you know, people like trying to get my attention
to get me to go off somewhere and have a conversation about
(16:38):
playing with them. So it wasn't the thing that they
could openly do. And here's the thing, I was
never offended by that. Like I was never offended by
that because I understood I'm not socially, I'm not a social
half wit. I understand that you still have
friends. And no matter how many of us say
we don't give a fuck what peoplethink, that's a lie.
We give a fuck what people think.
Everybody gives a fuck. To a certain extent, no, Now we
(17:00):
do get past certain things, but there, there came a point in all
of our lives where we passed that.
And now I see a lot of those couples now who openly tell
black people play with black guys.
So I know it feels like it's nota strange thing to me.
Going back to what you said earlier about, you know, how
does it feel when white people look at you and assume you have
a big Dick? Well, you know, if I didn't have
one, it's the same thing as, youknow, what women go through
(17:22):
every day. You know, as black people, we
grew up thinking that every white chick sucked Dick and she
did it good. And no, black chicks suck Dick
and they couldn't. The best blowjob ever got in my
life was a black chick. And I met white women who said
they didn't suck Dick. But so, so why would I as a
black man, be offended that somebody who looks at me and
assume that I've got a huge Dickthat's like me looking at you
(17:43):
and assuming that you're super intelligent?
I mean, I might be right, I might be wrong.
I'd rather you look at me and assume something positive about
me as opposed to look at me and assuming that I smell like, you
know, you know, wet dog or something like that.
You know, if I rather choose what you're going to assume
about me, let it be the positive.
So from my standpoint, I am very, I'm very understanding of
(18:09):
how people became toward me. But this extreme is better than
the old extreme, You know, now that people can openly kind of
reach for us. OK here, I'm here to be touched.
If I like you, you know, I'm OK with it.
Treat me like a fat, fetishize me, I'm OK with it.
OK. And that is our invitation to
go, OK. So what I was asking about with
(18:31):
the exclusion part was I meant more some smoke of the public
exclusion where you will be on awebsite and someone would have
on their profile no black men wein.
But your inbox will be full of those people who would say no
black men. The inbox would be your club
experience, would be people who look like they were afraid to
(18:54):
talk to you. But then when you were alone or
you would somewhere they can talk to you privately, they
would change numbers like you said.
That's what I meant those days, yeah.
Yeah. But those also be the ones that
tell you why you're not like most black when you.
Got that line too, yeah. Wow you speak so well.
They went to the same school youdid mean by you got.
To be kidding, I mean by that. Just tell us what?
(19:17):
Tell us what they mean. But when somebody says that,
what do they mean by that? I mean, you come on.
Like most black, like most blackguys.
Like, what do they mean by that?Yeah, When you hear that.
Well, they they expect us to sound like the Jive Turkey on
TV. They expect us to sound like the
the, the airplane, the guy that the media.
Told them that we are, you know,they're like, Oh yeah.
Well. They're actually speaking to a
(19:39):
dialect or an. Accent to a stereotype.
They're speaking to a media driven stereotype from the 70s
eighties. They think it's like that movie
Airplane. Excuse me, Stewart.
Soul. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There you go. That's.
Me, yeah. And I'm with, I'm with what I
think Mr. Mocha's sentiment is, which is as not cool as that is,
(19:59):
not everyone is understanding what they're doing and meaning
harm. Some people actually think
they're delivering a compliment when they do that.
They don't. I'm an intention over impact
person. I have many people in my life
and I've met many people that are impact over intention.
They don't give a fuck what yourintention is.
They won't know that the impact of them was bad and they're
(20:19):
going to hold you to it. I'm more did you mean to step on
my shoe? Because if you didn't, it's all
good. But if you pointed at my shoe
and walked across the room to step on it and stomp on it,
well, that's different. And I think some of these people
have no intention to step on shoes.
They're they think they're just a little ignorant about what
their comments mean. Yeah, a little ignorant.
It's like the whole white fragility thing, like not
(20:43):
knowing what to say. And if you say something and
your words come out the wrong way, then you're going to be
targeted as a racist or you know, and you had no intention,
you know, that's not in your heart or what you meant to say.
So sometimes people just don't say anything because there's the
people are afraid to have dialogue because they're afraid
(21:04):
that what they ask is going to come back.
You know, they're going to be misconstrued When you meet
somebody offended. Yeah, Yeah.
But when you meet gentlemen who are there and want you to learn
what you know, that's great. You know, you learn so much and
you're not. They don't question you or make
you feel silly if you ask a question.
And so here's a question. They prefer for you to ask the
(21:26):
question then to go into the media driven stereotype, even if
the question is to clear up the media driven stereotype.
So. You just want somebody to be
open and honest and just ask what they're confused about.
And I think a lot of white people are not willing to do
that, which is why it's hard to talk about race in America.
Let me ask you guys this, as so far as I know, all three of you
(21:47):
are partnered with white women. Do they get pushed back?
Do they get any of the slings and arrows that I get because
I'm in the public arena or not? Yes, I took my partner to church
with me and if you ever want to see evil stares from black
women, go to a black church. And I mean she sit there and see
(22:11):
this is I didn't see it. She saw every single one of them
and I was like, welcome, it'll be alright.
It seems fine. Oh my goodness, in a House of
God. In a House of God so.
Much hate coming out of those houses these days.
Yeah, I don't, I don't want to forget Mr. Mocha.
I know he had spoken a little bit about his partnership and
(22:33):
how he's gone through some stuffin the public eye.
He I'm not partnered with a white woman.
I'm just partnered. You heard a term Unicorn.
I'm partnered with a black womanwho packs my bags to go fuck
white women as flash Mocha. That's a real Unicorn, folks.
That's about rare. Yeah.
So I'm not partners with a whitewoman, but I predominantly have
(22:56):
all of my lifestyle experiences with white women.
We're talking the 98th percentile probably.
So that's my experience. But I don't.
I don't have to go through that in a vanilla setting.
Light church. Like I would ever step foot into
a church, I'd burst into flames.Yeah, me too.
Me too. I just had another question that
I, I was dying. Oh, I would like to before I
forget this particular thing, I would really, really like it.
(23:19):
If you're listening to this podcast and you have an opinion
on any of this, how do you, you handle racial tension or racial
interest in your life? I would really, really be
interested to know our listenersand what they, what their
experience is and how it may be the same or differ from what
you've heard here. So please, please feel free to
(23:40):
comment or contact any of the people on this podcast because
their information will be in theshow notes.
So I just wanted to throw that out there before we forget.
Yeah, that what you just said, Crystal, by the way, is part of
why I was excited about this call with you guys because and I
didn't forgive me, I didn't say this in my intro, but I would, I
(24:01):
would call myself proficient in the area of race play.
And one of the things that we didn't talk about the top is
what we even mean by that term. Yes, please.
So I'm of the opinion that there's two ways to look at
this. One definition that I have seen
and on many occasions is the definition is race plays where
(24:23):
there's a sexual practice where either there's like a real or
imagined racial background of one or more of the people
involved. And it's under the umbrella of
BDSM. So there's a power imbalance
through the lens of race and in a scene or whatever.
And that could be like slurs, that could be narratives, that
could be even objects that has are laden with racial history.
(24:44):
You know, I know people who use bondage handcuffs, but I know
people who are involved in a race play, they use stocks and
iron cuffs that are actually antiques.
They're trying to use that as anaspect of their play.
So that's one definition. I'm not alone, I know in this
room because I've talked to you guys, but I think there's a
(25:05):
broader definition of race play.You've involved race in your
play, full stop. That means I like black guys,
I'm into Asian chicks, White girls are hot.
To me, that adds a little extra Zing to it, in my opinion.
You've already stepped in the pool with the rest of the race
players, and there's a deep end of that pool.
I swim in the deep end. I slim in the shallow end.
(25:25):
I also don't even get in the pool with some partners because
they're not into it. So that's just one of the things
that I. Wanted.
Yeah, yeah, I'm a, I'm a scuba. Savvy.
Yes. But what you just said, Crystal,
about the racial things coming into play, that's one of the
most fascinating things to me. Why am I into it?
What are the things that are going on inside of me
(25:46):
psychologically? What am I dealing with as a
black man who's lived in Americafor half a century now?
And how am I exercising demons, for lack of a better term,
through this positive sexual experience with a consensual
partner? How are they exercising their
demons with me? And the fact that they've lived
in America as a white person andthey they've got a racist
(26:09):
grandfather who said all that shit or the things that they've
done in their past, how are theydoing something, again,
positively, that is allowing them to deal with bigger things?
Because I'm a sapiosexual, that's constantly on my mind.
And especially as political climates change, I've been in a
lifestyle long enough to see things ebb and flow.
And the 90s, for instance, aren't the same as right now.
(26:31):
We're in much more conservative times.
We're in much more, you know, volatile racial environments in
terms of these discussions. So what was acceptable in public
eye five years ago even is not as much right now.
And that ebb and flow is fascinating to me, too.
So yeah, I'm interested in all that.
And you said a huge mouthful right there, which is, I'm so
(26:53):
grateful to you for that. I neglected to mention, I have
mentioned it on other podcasts, but my background is I came from
a profoundly racist family. My mother was born in Cotton
Plan, Arkansas, and all that comes with that.
And, you know, she told me she'drather see me dead than to be
with my black boyfriend in college when I showed her a
(27:13):
picture. And so that's the environment
that I came from. I never had a conscious thought
that I was, that I was with him knowing that she was a racist
because he's black. I never had that kind of
response to it. Maybe something deep in my
psyche was there, but it was never like that.
And then ironically, I'm marriedto a man who is super alpha in
his data day life, but when I'm with a black lover, he's super
(27:37):
submissive and he sees it as pure reparations that he is
going to serve the superior black man.
So we've come really full circlefrom my background and, and it's
genuine for him. It's genuine, you know, he sees
all my black lovers as superior men.
And it's very interesting. I mean, we could probably talk
(27:58):
to you Pagan for about 100 hourson that whole thing.
But, and really, I don't care ifit's if it's a subconscious
reparations on my own part because my family was so racist.
It doesn't matter to me. All I know is that I stood by my
black lover in college and I andI do what I do today.
And I'm sorry for my mother. She's no longer alive.
(28:20):
But I'm sorry that there are people in this country that live
with that kind of hate for generations.
And then he tried to pass it, pass it on to the next
generations. Yeah, there's a lot to uncover
there. So I just curious, throw that
out there cuz. I.
Yeah, that's that's fascinating and also super honest in ways
that I just rarely hear. I'm curious if Anne, if any of
(28:41):
that resonates with you or do you even look into that mirror
and try to go deeper and like where it comes from for you?
Or do you kind of like keep it light, you know?
You know, I haven't had sometimes subconsciously I go
deeper. I haven't had any partners where
I've had an extended relationship where I could
really in the bedroom explore that.
(29:02):
I think you've pushed my boundaries more than anybody,
like when we I first got to knowyou, but I feel like I really
appreciate the black lovers thatI have.
And I have never gotten into anysort of situation where, you
know, I feel like I'm serving them or I'm owing them because
(29:24):
it's such a mutual connection. However, the respect is so great
because I feel like your lived experiences are so much more.
I feel like my appreciation for black men has so much more to do
than with the color of your skinbecause you've experienced so
much more than I will have ever experienced, you know, from you
know, And so I'm so that's why I'm here is because I'm
(29:46):
learning. You know, I think if I had a
lover who really wanted to explore kind of the BDSM role
and I would be very open to it, you know, I, I wouldn't be
afraid. I would be very open to it.
And I think as far as, you know,James serving a black man, you
know, because he feels reparation, he just does it out
of respect, you know, as a human.
(30:08):
And so we've never gone that far, but then we haven't had the
partners to experience that with.
And I suppose I could ask that question, you know, is this
something that you would like todo and open it up?
Because they may be afraid to say it or suggest it because,
you know, they don't want to freak me out.
So I think it has a lot to do with communication.
(30:29):
But having this conversation is going to help me be more open is
like Jackson, you just have to ask the question.
It's. Going to be a lot of brothers
that hear you on this podcast and they're going to hit you up
so. God, maybe that's what we wish.
I guess for me, when it comes tothe idea of race play, it's kind
of a misconception because most people don't realize that it's
(30:50):
easy to be in there then not be in there because of the people.
Kind of like you said, Crystal, like you haven't consciously
thought about it and you haven'treally explored like the
subconscious. If there becomes an Ave. for it,
you'll see that it kind of peeksin and out whether you really
realize it or not. And then once you kind of, in my
(31:11):
experience, once I grabbed that first thread and made that first
connection, had that first conversation and had that first
experience, it's a Pandora's boxsituation because you realize
that you are far more into it than you realize you are.
But also it's so much easier andmore honest to be in that space
and say those things and admit to those attractions and then
(31:34):
not to be in that place. And once you're there, you're
there. It doesn't matter if you're like
on a scale of one to 10A2, because a 2 will become a four
really fast and a four become a six pretty quick too.
But it's really, really easy to be there once you start being
honest with yourself. And so once you start saying,
hey, I like red hair, that red hair is going to turn into red
hair, green eyes, and then it's going to turn into a cultural
(31:55):
experience that you kind of justembrace for yourself and for
your partner. Yeah, I think there's a lot of,
there's so much, so much to discuss.
This is why I really hope that you listeners please write
comments and let us share your thoughts on this whole
discussion. I mean, I feel like we could sit
here and talk about this for another 10 hours, but we
probably won't. And I, you know, the other thing
(32:17):
that I recognized while you werespeaking, Jack, is that my
racist background, when I can hear my own mother say she'd
rather see me dead than with a black man, it's made me like
hugely militant. I mean, really, please be racist
around me. I will just rip your friggin
face off. And I don't really like that
part of myself. But I think that's what has come
(32:38):
out of all of it for me. I'm not passive around racists.
And, you know, the environment that we're in right now is kind
of dangerous because there's a whole lot of racists that would
like to RIP my face off too. So I have to, you know, I have
to be careful where I get militant.
But it's just like, you know, you can't, you're not going to
push me off my point of view. You know, I've, I had to
(33:02):
literally sort of divorce my ownmother to live the life that I
thought was right for me. And yeah, so all.
Right, that's that that's a that's one of the things too
that I think people, if you takea moment, think about what
Crystal just said, I think we could be thankful that you have
(33:23):
found other outlets because I would who dare say if you didn't
have these outlets, we would be getting militant crystal out
there on the streets much more. And y'all don't want that smoke?
No, you don't. The fact that the fact that you
have found you found this sexualAve. to release the pressure
valve, I think it's something that should not go unsaid about
(33:46):
all of this. You know, there are, I know
people who have literally been assaulted and have trauma in
their history that enjoy consensual non consent in their
BDSM. And on the surface, I couldn't,
I'm sure many people would look at that and go, why the hell
would you play in an arena that you have trauma around and that
(34:08):
hurts you so badly. And if you take 5 seconds to
research it or talk to one of these people, you'll find out
that this is one of the healthy ways where they're taking the
reins of their trauma. They are controlling what they
had no control over and they're healing from it.
This has been studied over and over in many different
disciplines. BDSM in general is an Ave. by
(34:30):
which many people heal and take control of things that they
don't have control over. So race play is, I think,
definitely one of those things. To a certain extent, we are
figuring out things psychologically or we're
addressing things in our past, much like your mom or other
things that we've experienced asBlack men.
And in this safe environment with consenting people, I think
(34:54):
a lot of healing and benefit cancome from it.
And when you judge it, more thanlikely, I got to be honest,
you're probably like Hamilton. You're not in the room where it
happens. When you judge it, you think all
these white women are fetishizing these guys in a
negative objectification way. OK, that sounds like a person
who's not in the room. You've watched porn, you've read
about it, you've made a decision.
(35:15):
You never experienced it becauseif you're in the room with these
women, they're putting us on a pedestal, treating us like
kings, lauding us above their husbands.
It's the opposite of that. So that's one of the things I
would point out for those who are listening, who are
uninitiated, who don't know. There's a lot of positivity
there, and don't let other people who have an experience to
(35:36):
tell you otherwise. Absolutely true, and I'll add
one more thing before we wrap this up.
I'm confessing to the world right now that I've had so many
instances over the years. I wish my mother could have had
a black lover at some time in her life.
It would have healed her hating heart and she would have been
swept up in the mystery of it. I just have to think that she
(35:58):
would. I've had the most beautiful
physical, spiritual, intellectual encounters with
black men over the course of my life.
And that's not to say I don't have those things with my
husband. I absolutely do.
But it's different. It's just different.
And especially when he, you know, he wants to also serve the
black man. So I wish, you know, and I, I'm
a little embarrassed to say that, but I wish, maybe what I'm
(36:20):
saying is that I wish all the deep racists would interact with
black people more. You don't have to screw them,
But how about talking to them? How about expanding your mind a
little bit and finding out what beautiful experiences that you
could have too? And I wish my mother would have
been open minded enough to do that.
I think it would have changed who she was as a person.
(36:41):
Thank you all so much for being willing to share some of your
experience here. This is not an easy topic to
take on and I deeply appreciate you being here and being willing
to be open and honest about it. Any parting words from anybody?
I'll just say thank you for thisopportunity and for the bravery
that you have to talk about this.
This is a subject that I think there's a lot of vitriol,
(37:03):
there's a lot of opinions, as I said before, and I think that
the only way to combat that is by us taking opportunities to
speak up. We can't complain about the fact
that people take race play a certain way if we're not giving
them positive examples of what it is like.
And I think this is one of thoseopportunities that you've taken
to do that, and I'm just glad tobe a part of it.
(37:25):
And I will put a plug in that I believe Mr. Mocha is going to
have another part to this particular subject in the
series, but I'll let Crystal speak on that.
But I'm looking forward to that as well to just put more
positive energy out there about this.
Yes, I totally neglected to say that at the top of the show, but
Mr. Moga has a very lovely podcast that he does with his
(37:46):
wife. And we wanted to break this up
into two parts because his audience is a little bit
different than you guys that listen to mine.
And so he's going to take it from another point of view.
And so if you're interested in the race discussion, please,
please, please. We will attach links to his
podcast and and his episode oncewe record that in the show notes
(38:06):
here so that you can find it. But we would love your
interaction. And I'm sure he has, he has a
lot of great things to say aboutthis as well.
Anybody else? Thank you, Crystal, really
appreciate being part of this. Well, I appreciate all you guys.
You know, it wouldn't happen unless you were all willing to
(38:27):
carve out time of your busy lives and come here and yak
about this. But I think it could benefit a
lot of people potentially. And that's my hope.
That's my hope. Absolutely.
Thank you very much. Yeah, thank.
Thank you, guys. Stay tuned for Part 2.
It'll be Mr. Mocha's podcast. And like I said, I will make
sure that the show notes includeall of that information so you
can get the follow up discussion.
(38:47):
Now that we've sort of opened the door, we'll see what horses
run through it on his podcast. Balls, balls run through.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What bulls?
Yeah, what bulls. All right, thank you, guys.
I appreciate you. Thank.
You. Thank you.
Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to
(39:13):
Beyond Monogamy with Crystal Welch.
We really appreciate you spending a little bit of time
with us today. We explored the difference
between a fetish and a preference, how being raised in
a racist household doesn't always lead to becoming a
racist, and the joy that comes from finding the magic in
interracial friendships as we have.
If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to
(39:34):
follow us so you don't miss a thing next time.
Mr. Mocha will be giving us a raw and honest look at race play
from the Black Bulls perspectiveand sharing how they really feel
about it. Trust me, you don't want to miss
this one. It will be on his podcast so be
sure to follow him and it will be His link will be listed in
the show notes as well as all ofour other guests.
(39:55):
We'd love to hear from you. You can find us on Spotify or
Apple, wherever you find your podcasts.
Please leave us your thoughts oryour questions.
We might even feature them in the next episode.
Or shoot us a message with any future topics that you would
like to hear us cover. Don't forget to subscribe and
leave a quick review. It really helps more people find
the show. And thank you for listening.
(40:17):
We'll see you next time.
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Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
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