May 13, 2024 • 48 mins
For those of you not familiar with Venus, she is a full time podcast host and producer, founder of Venus Connections Matchmaking, and cuckoldress extraordinaire!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Beyond Monogamy with your host, Blogger, podcaster,
and speaker Crystal Welch. This show explores how
relationships are changing in the 21st century from consensual
non monogamy to cuckoldry, polyamory, and interracial love.
This is the place to learn everything you wanted to know
about consensual non monogamy. Now, without any further ado,
(00:24):
let's welcome your host, CrystalWelch, and dive head first into
this episode. Good morning, friends and family
and fans and everybody. Crystal Welch here.
I have the great pleasure of speaking with my friend Venus
again today, who's so much fun to talk to.
(00:45):
I mean, we just get lost in conversation and I hope it's of
value to someone else because wesure have fun.
But anyway, you're going to wantto follow her.
She has the only matchmaking service for cuckold sincere
cuckold people at venusconnections.com, and that's
an innovative thought and a lot of people that are interested in
(01:05):
that, so I'm regularly sending them your way.
So thanks for doing that. And then her regular website is
Venus cuckolders.com. Great site, great content, and
you'll enjoy it a lot. So anyway, be sure to go follow
her and and find all the wisdom that she can give you.
(01:27):
So I thought we would take. I contacted her about a week or
so ago with a new kind of development on my side and I
thought it would be an interesting topic to take up.
And then I just got another question from one of my
followers this morning. And the question was, what
happens? How do you prevent yourself from
getting involved with a bull? Or what happens if you fall in
(01:50):
love with a bull or a bull fallsin love with you?
Nah, what the hell you do then. And so, so that's actually
happened to me twice. No.
So. So I'm going to sort of just
walk you through my experience but I want to call on Venus to
to share her experience too withhow she manages connection or
(02:11):
lack thereof, that lack thereof.We all want something a little
different and the challenge I think in this lifestyle a lot is
I've had a lot of challenge finding acceptable lovers or
bulls or whatever you want to call them or classify them.
A lot of what I see that a lot have come out of, you know,
(02:34):
maybe the swinging community andthey my impression has been, and
this is just my experience, I'm not speaking to all anybody, but
my experience has been that they're mostly happy with, you
know, being able to just like stop over, you know, give you
some Dick and then drive away. And you know, there's a place
(02:57):
for that in life. There's, you know, there's a
place for that, but it's not what I typically want.
I I want more connection. I want more somebody that I can
actually get to know, somebody that I can be friends with and
somebody that there's chemistry with.
And it's been very, very, very hard to find.
(03:19):
I live in an area that is not geographically diverse you know
and when you're you're chosen partner is always black.
It's it's harder it's it makes it harder.
So so anyway I want to launch atVenus.
Do you have any thoughts to openthis up with it and I'll go
ahead and share my experience and then we can unpack it a
(03:41):
little bit. But what are your initial
thoughts like have you found yourself trying to avoid
connection or trying to make connection?
What is your particular approachwhen you are with or you find
somebody that you're attracted to?
How do you, how do you foster that?
First of all, thank you so much for having me on the show once
(04:04):
again, I love chatting with you.I feel like we can just like
dive into these things and just pick it all apart, put it all
back together to try to better understand it.
So I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to be on
the show with you again. So thank you for that and this
topic. This topic is like, it's so
complex and it's so deep and it's so provocative and it's
(04:29):
such a big issue. I could call it, I guess, an
issue. In this lifestyle.
It can be an issue. And so I'm so happy that we are
discussing this part of it, thisaspect of it now, back, way back
when, when I first learned abouta couple of things, I was like,
wow, that sounds like amazing. You can have this amazing,
loyal, a loving partner, and youcan also have these amazing
(04:54):
sexual experiences on the side and it be just everything that
you want it to be. And I was just like, oh, that's
awesome. But then I was like, I was
meeting cucks who really wanted to find a woman who wants that
romantic connection with their bull as well.
(05:15):
In fact, some who wanted them all, us all to live together and
I was fascinated by that becauseI'm like, isn't that a little
dangerous? Like don't you think that maybe
you could be replaced or something or you no longer need
it in that situation? Isn't that like risky for your
relationship. And.
(05:36):
And one of my coke friends explained to me, he said,
actually it is that level of risk.
It is that level of of fear and angst that at that of danger,
that makes me want it. It's appealing.
And I was like, oh fuck this, The mind of a cuck is something
else. Let me tell.
(05:56):
You right? Nobody thinks like them but
them. And I'm like holy shit.
Like that's brave, man. That's fucking brave.
Like brave. And and then I came across
stories about and I have over the years of of guys who have
you know indulged in this lifestyle with their wife and
(06:18):
then their wife leaves them for the bull.
I hear this not I want to say often but enough times to make
me feel really shitty about that.
Like that sucks and it's devastating and their
relationship ends and or their marriage ends and sometimes they
have families this breaks up their family and like it's it's
really devastating. And so I've heard stories like
(06:40):
that. And I've also heard from cucks
that most of the cucks who say that they really want that
boundary there where there's no feelings involved between their
girlfriend or wife and the bull because that's fucking scary and
don't wanna go there. And I I don't wanna compromise
(07:01):
our relationship. And so that is like a hard
boundary for a lot of them because it is their biggest fear
of losing their loved one to a ball.
And so, like, it's amazing we don't talk about this more often
in the lifestyle. Like, of all the conversations
that we have, they're all very sexy.
(07:21):
They're all very fun. It's very like, oh, this is hot.
You know, let's talk about interracial.
Let's talk about big Dicks. Let's talk about, like, sexy
scenarios and fantasies and all that sort of stuff.
But like, we really do need to explore this topic of feelings
getting caught. So I have witnessed couples who
(07:42):
their relationship has ended or it has been in deep, deep
trouble because feelings were caught.
And I have witnessed relationships that have been OK
and been able to to transition into that kind of Poly triad
kind of dynamic set up. And I've been asked many times
(08:05):
over the years, you know, what are your feelings on this?
What, what kind of setup do you want?
And I my answer has a little bit, you know, changed a little
bit over the years. In the beginning I was like,
well, you know, I don't think I could do the feelings caught
thing because that sounds very complicated.
(08:25):
I mean, polyamory is fucking hard.
It's not easy. It's not easy to pull off.
And I know this because I have friends who are polyamorous and
I hear it all the time. It's hard.
It's not easy. And so I'm like, OK, there's
there's that part of it. I just feel like that would be
really complex. But also, I do have this
(08:46):
underlying feeling that my, my, my relationship with my husband
might be in danger if that were to happen.
And so it scares me. It really does scare me because
I've been in love before. You've been in love before,
we've all been in love before. It's fucking like you get all
(09:08):
caught up in it. You get to the point where
you're not thinking right, or you are making decisions based
purely on need and want and not on rational thought.
And so it's scary. I know the potential for fucked
up decisions to be made on my part and I'm in love.
(09:31):
I know we've got real capacity. I have made mistakes.
So have I ever. And so yeah, I have this real,
real thing about, you know, maybe I would lose my husband
and I don't really know if I want to go there.
Now, having said all of that, I do look for connection with my
(09:52):
bulls. I mean, I can absolutely fuck
somebody and not have to have connection.
I could just have, like, you know, whatever, let's just fuck.
But like I over the years have been able to really realize
there's so much value in that kind of emotional intimacy,
(10:12):
sexual intimacy that you have with your partner and it this
idea that it has to then no matter what snowball into love.
I don't buy that shit. And I think that that maybe
originates from those people whothink that sex equals love.
And so if you have sex, then it should be love.
(10:37):
And I'm like no, no, no, no, no.And so that's why I'm like
people can have sex and it not be a full on relationship.
It might not even be a relationship at all.
It's just a friendship and like,this is so hard for a lot of
people to understand, but I don't think that it necessarily
has to go down that road of falling in love with somebody.
(11:00):
I have not fallen in love with abull.
I have definitely had platonic love with a bull.
I've had a bull fall in love with me, and that was disastrous
for our relationship because he wanted more, he needed more.
And then he was heartbroken whenhe couldn't have more.
So that was, oh God, it was the best Dick ever, too.
(11:21):
Had to give up the best Dick ever.
Oh no, I. Know tragedy.
But yeah, no, there was just it was too hard on him.
So. So yeah, I think I just blurted
out like a whole lot right there.
But those are my feelings when Ithink about this subject, about,
you know, where I'm at. Well, thank you for sharing that
(11:46):
and and you're right, it is it, it is so much.
It is. There's so much involved in that
discussion and A and a billion different variations of it.
I mean, for every person that exists on earth, that has their
own whatever, their dynamic is, this whole arena of love and
relationships can be complicated.
(12:08):
And when you're playing in the dynamics that we play in, it's
even more so. So I'll kind of explain how my
thinking has evolved over time and how I I like the point that
you brought up, like and this isthe question that I get most
often from others is when they find out that I have an
(12:31):
involvement. Well, what does your husband
think about that? You know, what's what's his
response, what's his. So, so we'll unpack that a
little bit because he and I havespent a great deal of time
unpacking all of this over yearsover years because every person
that we meet that we have an experience with, it reshapes us
in some way and it's so it's just evolved.
(12:52):
But so I'm like you I, I don't have any stuff about finding
somebody that I'm attracted to and just helping them.
I mean there's I mean what the. Yes, I say yes to that.
Absolutely. Let's go however, on a longer
term basis and part of this is based out of my own, I think
(13:14):
based out of my own frustration from the difficulty of finding
acceptable partners in the area that I live in.
So how that has that that lack of exposure to people that I'm
attracted to has certainly shaped my point of view and my
methodology and how I've gone about this.
(13:35):
And then when you throw into themix, you know, almost three
years of COVID isolation, I was always a connector.
I mean, I always, I've always considered myself demisexual.
I I need connection, you know? And if if I'm only going to see
you once and we're both open andhonest about that and we both
want to do it, well, there's no problem with that.
I'm all about it. But for the most part, it's so
(13:59):
hard for me to find somebody that I like anyway.
If I find somebody that I like, I want to see them more than
once. And I want something of quality.
And in terms of the sex and the connection and the communication
and just the enjoyability factor, for me it requires
connection. So I say no, a lot more than I
(14:22):
say yes. I mean, I had a guy that emailed
me two days ago, haven't talked to him for months.
He says, hey, is your teenager at home.
I'd like to come by and, you know, give you some Dick or
something like that. I mean it was just, it was just
about that grass. And I'm going like, what what
planet, what planet are you from?
I mean you could have said, hi, how you doing, Hey, what are you
(14:45):
doing today? You know, it's just this
assumption I think and I think it's especially this is just my
perception. I could be completely wrong
about everything that I think. And so I'll disclaimer that
right off the bat, but I think it's especially common when
people are approaching a marriedwoman.
They just assume that they don'thave to put anything into this
(15:06):
at all because I have a husband and all they want to do is throw
out some Dick and that should begood enough.
And and mostly it isn't for me. I just don't find straight on
Dick without conversation and without something in common.
Maybe couples are treating him that way and that's why he
assumes it's the norm. Yeah, I I don't know.
(15:26):
But it's it happens often enoughthat I I think it's pretty it's
just pretty common. So.
So I just thought, well, you know I want what I want.
What I want is somebody that's at least willing to put a
modicum of energy into this, to be friends, to get to know me a
little bit, let me get to know him a little bit, and then we
can decide together how we want everything to go.
(15:50):
And so that's sort of been my MOall along.
Well, so I'd given up. I had given up on finding my
husband and I had talked some time ago with another lover who
wanted to be a full time polyamorous throuple with us.
Unfortunately, he didn't inform his wife about that.
So it didn't work out. Right.
(16:13):
Right. But we.
Yeah, I know. See the so it's like that, you
know, you find one that you really, really like and
everybody gets along and everybody's all about it.
And yeah, maybe you ought to tell your wife.
No, I don't think so. OK, See ya.
So anyway, that's how that went.But so I've just been going
along and I just assume that, you know, at once in a blue
moon, I might find somebody thatI find interesting, but it
(16:36):
really is blue moon time. So anyway, about must have been
March or so this year. Really, very recently I met a
man and we just had a wonderful first date, Just very engaged
conversation, lots in common, funny, smart, conversant about a
(17:01):
lot of things. And we decided that we would see
each other. And so I was happy about that.
I thought, yeah, this would be, this would be a great guy to get
to know. And so anyway, we started seeing
each other. Well, he's not been terribly
available because he happens to be employed by the NBA, which
just eats his life away. And so he's gone more than he's
(17:25):
here. He he does live in my city, but
he's gone especially during the season and then I'm fighting
even after the season. You know, there's a million
other things he has to do for his thing and so and as we speak
he's in LA recuperating from exhaustion.
And so, yeah, so I got, I got todo regular old wife nagging on
(17:46):
that. And you know, you know, this is
also what they sign up for. Wife nagging like, fuck you
guys, work yourselves to death and then you die 10 years
younger than us and what the fuck we keep telling you to
carve out some more time. But you know, so so I reserve
the right to nag my lover too. So anyway, he's a wonderful
human being. He's the one out of the clear
(18:10):
blue sky. Not too too long ago declared
his love for me and I started thinking about it.
So the first conversation I haveis with my husband, you know,
and I said, look, I really like this guy.
I would like to see what's available here.
I don't know, you know, just getting to know each other.
(18:31):
But the more that we saw each other, the more that it became
apparent that we we were, we were absolutely involved.
And I wanted to be and he wantedto be.
And my husband is completely OK with it.
He's already thrown up the whiteflag.
Like I know you're way more thanwhat I can manage on my own.
So please call it. Please call in the help, you
(18:54):
know. And that's that's kind of his
position. But so anyway, so that's how
we've been going. And so it's given us good, I
think, to answer one of the issues that you brought up, like
how how do we engage in this andnot threaten my primary
relationship with my husband andwhat he and I have talked a lot
(19:15):
about is this need for. And what frequently goes stale
in, I think all kinds of relationships, not just
marriages, but this new relationship energy when you're
just discovering someone and there's a lot of passion and
that all that all that feeds into that new relationship
energy. It's a real thing, and it
energizes my husband as much as it energizes me because it's
(19:39):
like like the whole dial gets dialed up about 10 levels and
there, you know, and it's charged and he gets, he gets
some of that too. We're very, very clear on no
matter how involved I might get with someone, we are not.
We've already been through 2 divorces, which were incredibly,
(20:00):
staggeringly expensive for both of us.
Both of us paid out these massive settlements.
So there there's an issue of practicality here.
There's no such thing as more divorce in our world or we might
as well just, you know, jump offthe roof.
So. So we don't even accept that as
a possibility. And I know for many people that
that's, you know, they're not inthat situation where they feel
(20:22):
like, gosh, if I felt vulnerableenough to love someone.
It it might, it might challenge my loyalty to my partner.
My husband and I are not experiencing it that way.
We we have fully signed off on. We believe.
We always believed, in theory, that as human beings we have
(20:43):
capacity to love more than one person.
That doesn't mean that you have to take something away from
person A in order to love personB, but it is more complicated as
you said, you know it requires, I think it requires that all
three people be highly emotionally intelligent, very
(21:03):
open, honest and authentic aboutwhat they're feeling and what
they need and how they fit in. And we have been able to do that
in the in the short amount of time that we've been together
and so so, So we're going down that road.
He probably is very likely goingto move in here temporarily.
(21:24):
He's just building a new house and that house obviously
construction is behind as all construction seems to be while
his house is getting finished sohe'll so then we it forced us
because we do have a 16 year oldthat lives here.
We had to sit down with the minor child and say we didn't.
(21:45):
We're in a custody. We're.
I don't want to drag everybody through our whole drama here,
but we're in a custody battle for this child and we have not
had her full time until now. She's requested, she's requested
that my husband have take full custody of her.
She's become alien, completely alienated from her mother.
(22:06):
So now we have a minor child in the house, which complicates our
adult activities, you should say.
So what we did early on, and my husband took this on of his own
accord. We sat down at dinner and said,
you know, we wanted to talk to you about something.
You know, it was never necessaryuntil now.
But now that you're living here,we felt like we wanted to let
(22:28):
you know that we are Polly. And she knew what Polly was.
And, you know, he said we've always been that way.
It's just was no, was not necessary to talk to you about
it, 'cause you, you weren't hereand you wouldn't have an
occasion to meet anyone. But you know you're going to
meet this person. You know, we had plans to go to
brunch with him and we did last,I think it was last week or two
(22:52):
weeks ago and she was totally cool with it.
So. So that's something, you know,
for for my husband to tell his only child that we are embracing
this, that he's comfortable enough to share that with his
child and and we were prepared to respond any any kind of
(23:14):
appropriate way to her if she had concerns about it.
But she's cool. I mean she thinks, you know, she
doesn't see anything wrong. I mean, the younger generation
doesn't have nearly as much stuff about this as we do.
I don't give a fuck, I. Don't.
I don't. It's like, hey, of course you
do. Isn't everybody, you know, It
was kind of like that. It was kind of like that.
(23:35):
And so that part's been really easy and really fun.
So, so I get it that for most couples it can be a huge threat
that very, you know, if if you take this the scope of all human
beings and you, you narrow it down to this very, very narrow
stratum of people who are interested in cuckoldry.
(23:56):
And then you further narrow thatdown by cuckold couples that are
willing to actually branch out into polyamory.
You know, we are a a minuscule subset.
It's a very, very small subset. I most people that I know of,
our friends that are swingers and whatnot, most of them, most
(24:16):
of them make efforts to not get too attached.
Sometimes that means, I mean andthese are people that actually
have access to people that they're attracted to, unlike me,
that they have enough to choose from that they can do that.
You know, it just that just wasn't an option for me.
So. So that's kind of how we landed
in this I, you know, who knows what's going to go because you
(24:37):
know, come October, you know he's pretty much gone for the
next eight months after that. And so on his side of the fence,
I've gotten some questions aboutthis like why would a bull want
to get all involved in a cuckoldor any couple.
Well, the answer for him, his answer was from his own
(24:58):
perspective is that he has this very challenging career that
takes him on the road 8 months out of every twelve he makes.
It makes it he he's felt like it's been impossible to foster a
primary relationship because of that.
He because he's he he just can'tbe a full time partner at this
time. Now he's planning to retire next
(25:20):
year. So maybe this may be the fact
that he allowed himself to become vulnerable this time and
get involved in this. It might be.
That might be part of the reason.
I don't know. I haven't asked him that.
But it's possible because here'swhat I think.
I believe, You know, we're all just people.
All of us want to love and be loved.
All of us want to desire and be desired.
(25:41):
We all want that, you know, on what terms we're willing to
accept. What's available to us, I think
is where the real questions reside.
And so for us, I want somebody that I can be connected to.
I'm too. I've been too isolated through
COVID the zipless can I just come by and fuck you Guy is not
(26:02):
interesting to me. In spite.
I do have moments in the day andin the late night that it sounds
really good to me, but he's never around then fuckers are
always some other odd time that I can't, you know, so tiny,
tiny. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta,
you know ask a little bit more often to find a time that works.
(26:24):
So I don't know it, it is complicated.
But I felt like it's worth it toexplore this a little bit just
because I know that other peoplehave concerns about it, don't
wouldn't know how to navigate itif it if it happened, you know.
And one of the things that I cansee can possibly come up.
(26:44):
And again, we haven't had enoughtime to really write the ground
rules for what we're doing. But when he goes out again with,
you know, when the season startsagain, does he, is he going to
expect me to be mostly celibate during that time?
(27:06):
Oh yeah. You know, and it's like, I don't
think I could do that. You know.
Just like you and I were conspiring to make a sandwich
with some king at at Mokai. You know that could still
happen. I don't know.
But you know, I, you know, so soit's speed bumps like that that
(27:26):
you have to work through. Like what am I going to do?
If he says I absolutely, positively don't want you being
with anyone else, even when I'm on the road, what's my response
going to be? So I have a couple of months in
here to think that over. But bottom line is it's going to
require that all three of us sitdown and hammer out the ground
(27:48):
rules. Because I'm not going to, you
know, I'm too far into this, youknow, I could tell complete
truth to my husband and then I end up cheating on my boyfriend.
You know, it's that doesn't seemlike that's in integrity.
So we have to we have to figure that out.
And I don't know what the answeris going to because I'm, I don't
feel like I want to sit here, you know, And there will be
(28:09):
things like mocha or something that will come up from time to
time. I'm not a swinger.
I don't go to swinger parties oranything like that.
But Mocha's fun. It's really fun.
It's really super fun. And so anyway, that's that's
kind of how we got here. It it will be an unfolding
story. But I think it's, you know, it's
relevant for us. We we do, both of us.
(28:31):
My husband and I both embrace the notion that human beings do
have the capacity love more thanone person and it doesn't
necessarily have to destroy the first one to accept the second
one. And so we are, we will be
practicing that over the next however long this thing might
last. And so that's that's what we're
(28:53):
doing. But yeah, it's complicated.
It can be complicated And like everything else that that you
and I have both always talked about, you know, communicate,
deep communication is the key. Where's everybody at?
What do they want? And I think the key thing in
finding a partner is to, whetheryou're looking for a cuck, A
(29:14):
cuckoldress or a bowl, you have to find the person that wants
what you want. That's like the most important
thing. You have to find somebody that
wants what you want. And so that's a that's a
question I would take a deep dive into When you're first
meeting people, You know, find out to the best of your ability
or to the best of their ability to know themselves, you know,
(29:37):
what actually do they want? You know, in this case, my
boyfriend wants all the goodies of a real relationship and not
in a real position to provide that at least not 12 months out
of the year. But he still wants it.
He still wants it. So should he not have that
because he's got a complication over there?
(29:58):
I don't know. Who am I to say he shouldn't
have that? So anyway, so that's how we go.
I think what you said about emotional intelligence being
critical to the success of you know this working out.
I think that is totally true. The communication level that has
(30:20):
to be on point. It has to be on point.
But there was something you mentioned that I can I I get,
which is that whole new relationship energy and that's
what you want and that's what you seek and you enjoy and
you're feeding off of it. He's feeding off of it.
You're all three. You feeding off of it and it's
great and you're in that stage, which is like amazing.
(30:43):
What happens when that fades? Because I think it can and will
at some point. I mean, this is sort of the
whole point of Doctor Lei's bookInsatiable Wives is that we do
get bored. We get bored, we get bored, we
(31:03):
just get bored. And surprisingly, women quicker
and more frequently than men do.And so it's very, very possible
that that would happen, which is, I guess why my answer to
that is you have to circle back and figure out what your
agreements are. You know, if I find my, you
know, if this person over here, absolutely.
(31:26):
His happiness is dependent on mebeing only with him and my
husband. You know, is that going to play
with me? I don't know.
It's. Complicated.
Yeah. Don't.
Ask me the hard questions. Keep me with us.
That's a simple question. Not the hard ones.
(31:48):
Yeah, that's that'd be really hard.
That'd be really hard for me. So.
Because I've seen, I I know you said your bowl is like going to
be moving in temporarily. And I get that.
It's it's helpful a situation for him while he's waiting for
his house to be built. But I have witnessed couples in
the lifestyle where the bull hasmoved in permanently with them
(32:11):
and their kids and everything like that and and I wonder about
that and like, if that new relationship energy, it is
fucking amazing right now, it iseverything.
You are on cloud nine. It is great.
It's all exciting and everythinglike that and you can't imagine
it ever changing. And it does.
(32:32):
I mean we're we're all adults. We know how it works with
relationships that goes away. And then all of a sudden you
start to get annoyed by how they, you know, leave the toilet
seat up or you know, like, you know, their real fucking shit
comes in and you're like, oh man, this person's starting to
piss me off. And like, it's fun as it used to
be. And like, there's chores and
(32:53):
there's, you know, all this regular shit and you're like,
the honeymoon is over. Right.
No. And that's that's very real.
That's very real. I I think that's just realistic.
I mean, it's one of the other topics that you and I took on.
Maybe it was the last time, you know, how do you juggle these
two conflicting needs? You know, your need for safety
and security, your need for adventure.
(33:15):
Well, just because you have a husband and a boyfriend, you
still have to confront those that conflict even with the
boyfriend or and any subsequent boyfriend.
How do you find safety in it Andhow do you find, you know, when
the when the need for adventure asserts itself, what do you
where do you go with that? So yeah so we're nobody's immune
(33:38):
from those two questions. I don't care who you're with or
you know, my my husband would say, well the obvious answer is
you need like 5 boyfriends. You know that's what he would.
And we say yes, yes, if you could just find 5 that I would
like I'll do that and you know he can't and nor can I.
So you know that's a false. That's a false notion, but well,
(34:01):
is. There is, is there?
Would there be an option? I'm just thinking this through,
like, you know, if you are in love with your bull and he's in
love with you and you think thiswhole situation can work out and
you know, in your mind it seems like, yeah, we could do this and
you've had the conversations andeverything like that.
Is it something that you can plan out and be like, OK, we're
(34:24):
going to do this for now and it not be like, I'm going to, you
know, you're going to be part ofthis triad for the rest of our
lives kind of thing. Like, you know how when you
commit to your husband, you're like, I can't imagine my life
without him, right? You're like, I love this man.
I'm going to spend the rest of my life with this man and I get
(34:45):
that. But when it comes to bringing in
this other person who you love with the same amount of love,
probably. Can it be something that doesn't
require that lifetime commitmentand instead just be like, this
is gonna what's gonna work for us right now?
And we'll see where that goes. I mean, I think part of the
(35:08):
conversation, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we need more
physical time together, all three of us, to just air out a
lot of this stuff. But I think that's absolutely
that's the most practical approach of anything.
I mean, who knows what next weekwill bring or next year?
You know, we can't possibly knowthat.
So the only the best I think we can do now is to sit down
(35:31):
together and say what each one of us what do each one of us
want out of this? How do we see it going and what
what is our, you know, what are we striving toward?
And is there an intersection of that?
We all meet someplace that we could agree on.
But I think it's it's the same thing that happens in all Poly
(35:55):
relationships sooner or later that, you know, the secondary
lovers, you know, as much as youdon't want there to be like a
value judgment on it. Well, there is.
I mean, I'm legally married to aperson and not legally married
to the other person and. And so how does that skew
(36:17):
priorities and commitments and stuff like that.
So I I just don't think there's any, I don't think there's any
way to pre plan that. I think the only thing that I
can see to do is to just continue to be totally open and
honest about where we, where we are, what we want and and any
agreement, I mean, if we're gonna make any agreement right
(36:37):
now, it's the agreement to be completely honest about where we
are and if things change that we're going to have enough
integrity to let everybody know.Yeah, I don't know what we can
do beyond that, really. And then just take it a day at a
time. Well I I had a conversation with
Kennedy because she my friend Kennedy because she brought up
(36:57):
this that term platonic love forboth and I was like oh that's
it. Because you can have.
I think in my experience anyway,deep connected feelings with a
bull. I mean and then they're they're
a really important part of my life and I value them so much
(37:21):
outside of just the sexual realm.
And I think the really interesting thing about that is
I don't know if that person's going to fall in love with
someone and get married and I never have that.
You know I don't see them anymore.
There is that unknown of I don'thave this person for the rest of
(37:44):
my life, but I love them in my life right now.
And so there's something so interesting about that because
you don't feel that way about your husband, 'cause you're
like, I love him and I'm going to be with him forever.
But then you also have these people in your life who you
don't. It's kind of like you don't know
what the outcome is going to be.You don't know when that day is
(38:05):
going to come, when they are going to, you know, move on and
do something else and whatever you'll be, you'll be happy for
them. Sad, but happy and but you, you
just don't know. And I think for me anyway, the
fact that that does feel temporary helps me to appreciate
them right now in the moment even more because you don't.
(38:29):
It's not guaranteed you don't have this person in your life
forever. Right.
Right. So I think there is that
possibility of being able to have those really amazing feel
feelings with someone and but still realizing that, hey, this
might not work out in the long run kind of thing.
I don't know. Right.
No, I think that's, I think that's very sensible and it's
(38:52):
it's a sensible, practical approach to it.
We have friends. We have a couple of friends
actually that got deeply involved with the bull.
And then in both cases the bull became frustrated with not
having the wife be exclusive with them.
(39:13):
And so they left the relationship to find somebody to
be with them, just one-on-one and and everybody's heartbroken,
everybody's heartbroken. And then in one case, the bull
came back saying he made a terrible mistake and he'd rather
have her partially than anybody else completely so.
(39:35):
So this is the complexity of human beings, you know, that
could happen at any time. And I think when you're talking
about a secondary partner, the the piece you can never anchor
in is the safety piece, 'cause it's not safe in terms of
there's no guarantees here there, you know, there's no
guarantees that this person's gonna be here next week or next
year, you know. So the the safety component is
(39:59):
not the same. You you can still have the
adventure component, but withoutthat commitment, I guess.
And I'm not sure that I'm even looking for that.
I mean, it's just it's just unfolding.
I'm trying to just play this dayby day without.
Oh, I can imagine that it must be a lot to process.
(40:19):
It is. I mean, me sitting up here in,
you know, no man's Land in termsof finding the kind of man that
I am typically attracted to and then you find one that's just
like all in. I mean, it's, yeah, it's a lot
from my old brain to wrap itselfaround and it's super fun and I
like it. But yeah, we have all these
things to discern. I I don't know how it's going to
(40:41):
go. You know, what I do know is that
I'm confident that both my husband and I live with
integrity. We're not looking to take
advantage of anyone or misrepresent anything that we're
doing or anything that we are. I mean, actually, my bull's
biggest challenge will not be meand my nagging.
It will be my husband going well, we'll find three more
(41:03):
bulls. That's this answer.
You know. And the and the other guy's
going, no, no, no, I don't want that.
No, no. You know, so he's gonna have to
rein in my husband. So.
I can see this like the actor's in a sitcom.
I can just. See it?
Right, right, right, right, right.
The husband's saying go. The boyfriend's saying no, stop.
(41:25):
So anyway, yeah, so that's kind of how it is.
And it's it's enjoyable, but I thought it was a good
conversation, a good conversation to have with you,
just because I do think it needsto get aired out.
These are deep questions that prevent a lot of people from
stepping forward just to explorethings 'cause they think, Oh my
God, what happens if that happens?
What happens if that happens? And they get so many of those
(41:47):
what ifs that they just don't move forward at all.
So, you know, and another part of our general philosophy is
none of us know how much runway we have left in life.
We just don't know, you know, wewould rather roll the dice and
live, live as large as we can, have as much love and foster as
much love in our life as we can,and with no guarantees that you
(42:11):
know that it's going to last past tomorrow.
I mean, we don't have any those kind of guarantees, but we would
rather take the risk and play play big while we can, you know,
'cause there'll come a day that we probably can't.
You know, my my dear husband hasalready made me promise that if
I drop dead, then I will him to you.
(42:33):
So what? So one of these, one of these
days, you know, if he shows up on your doorstep with a little
suitcase and a bow on his neck, you'll know that I have passed
away and and and he will be my special gift to you.
Oh my God, I love. You at at his at his request, he
goes, yeah OK you can go ahead and die as long as I can stay
(42:54):
with Venus. So anyway.
Oh my God, I know. So, so yeah.
So a little bit of humor and a little bit of authenticity, and
that just kind of gets us through the day.
Well, I think it's absolutely great and brave.
I, I I will say it's brave of you guys to go down this road
(43:16):
together, but it sounds to me like you have such a solid
relationship and that like really really high level of
communication and honesty that is required.
So you have all of the tools already that you need to be able
to do this and so good for you. This is a relationship where the
(43:40):
woman asks for what she wants and gets what she wants, and
that's what you're doing. So.
Yeah, yeah, that that was my first impression.
Like, jeez, it's like the dog that caught the car.
You know what? You know, my eyes going, what I
caught the car. What, this thing I thought I
always wanted. Now what the hell do I do with
it? You know, it's like, what?
(44:00):
But no, it's it's really true I think.
And the and the moral of that story is patience.
You know, if you, you know, it might take you years and years
to find what you really want. It might.
It might. But what's my alternative?
You know, I get back to that. I only have so much runway left.
What's my alternative? Do I just give up?
(44:21):
Because it's hard. You know, my choice was, well,
I'm going to keep, you know, interviewing people because I
just don't know. I don't know what's in the
cards. And you know, he came tripping
down the road and here we are, so.
Well let me just say you had theeasiest search for a cock
husband and now you've had the hardest search for a bull and I
(44:43):
have had an easy time finding bulls and the worst time finding
a cock. So there you go.
Or even I just can't imagine that you have trouble finding a
cock. And so you know, if we lived any
closer, I I would. I would lend you, I would lend
you mine. And he could he could be a cold
cuck or something like that. And I don't.
Even know that like you just like you, you're not looking for
(45:05):
a bull, you're looking for the bull.
And I'm not looking for, just. A cuck cuck, Yes.
B, is that right? Yeah.
The one. The one.
Yeah. Yeah, the one.
And I'm confident that you will find, I mean, A, with all the
stuff that you do already and you know, you're fairly high
profile. I'm confident that you will.
But the truth is it's not easy for any of us.
(45:25):
And that that's my last message of hope for our listeners is
none of this is easy necessarily.
It's just you get to define how do you want to invest your life
energy for the time that you have left, knowing that none of
us know how much time we have left.
You get to pick how do you want to invest your life energy in
finding the things that make your heart sing.
(45:46):
I mean, there's no other question really but that one.
And then then go about that business knowing that it it
might take way more time than you wanted and it might be
harder than what you wanted, butwhat's your alternative?
Exactly. What's my alternative?
Nothing so. Netflix and chill till I die.
(46:09):
Well, I love the. Saying of yours, I don't know
how much runway I have left. I'm like, that's so perfect.
You have the funniest sayings ofanyone I talk to.
Is so funny. Well, yeah, I I think that,
yeah, it's true. We don't, we don't know how much
runaway we have. And we might as well be about
the game of life and and playingit our way.
(46:31):
And, you know, it's kept us alive and thriving and happy.
And you know, I'm never, ever, ever bored with my husband ever,
ever. You know, his solution to
everything is you need a new boat.
And I go, Yeah, you're all right.
Where the hell am I gonna find one of those?
He's the child. Venus has got all the bulls.
(46:51):
I don't have any bulls. The Venus no sharing is caring.
Absolutely, I'm 100%. Well, you know what?
We should, we should continue this chat on the Moan app, I
think. I think we should It would be
fun if we should. We should.
Let's do that. So OK, so we'll wrap this up for
(47:13):
now. I will put all of Venus's the
contact information. Oh, I did get your magazine
article uploaded on my website, too.
I want to let you know that. Oh, wonderful.
It's it's such good content. I will put all of the stuff in
the show notes. But for those of you who do not
have the Moan app, that is an app that you can upload on
either an iPhone or an Android. Now it's Mon.
(47:36):
Wherever you get your apps, upload that app and and then
look for an episode. We will schedule that and
continue this conversation and then we can have it live with
you people that are interested in the topic.
So that's a. Great idea, I can ask you.
Questions. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Thank you again, Venus.
I always love talking to you. We'll we'll come up with 10 more
(47:57):
weird things to talk about before, before the year, before
the year's done. OK.
Talk to you soon. Thank you for tuning in.
You can access Crystal's latest blog and podcast at C Welch Poly
on Medium and find her on Twitter at Crystal Welch 99.
Your questions and comments are always welcome.
(48:20):
Also, if you're enjoying the show, please feel free to rate,
subscribe, or leave a review wherever you listen to your
podcasts. We appreciate it and we'll catch
you in the next episode.
Welcome to Beyond Monogamy with your host, Blogger, podcaster,
and speaker Crystal Welch. This show explores how
relationships are changing in the 21st century from consensual
non monogamy to cuckoldry, polyamory, and interracial love.
This is the place to learn everything you wanted to know
about consensual non monogamy. Now, without any further ado,
(00:24):
let's welcome your host, CrystalWelch, and dive head first into
this episode. Good morning, friends and family
and fans and everybody. Crystal Welch here.
I have the great pleasure of speaking with my friend Venus
again today, who's so much fun to talk to.
(00:45):
I mean, we just get lost in conversation and I hope it's of
value to someone else because wesure have fun.
But anyway, you're going to wantto follow her.
She has the only matchmaking service for cuckold sincere
cuckold people at venusconnections.com, and that's
an innovative thought and a lot of people that are interested in
(01:05):
that, so I'm regularly sending them your way.
So thanks for doing that. And then her regular website is
Venus cuckolders.com. Great site, great content, and
you'll enjoy it a lot. So anyway, be sure to go follow
her and and find all the wisdom that she can give you.
(01:27):
So I thought we would take. I contacted her about a week or
so ago with a new kind of development on my side and I
thought it would be an interesting topic to take up.
And then I just got another question from one of my
followers this morning. And the question was, what
happens? How do you prevent yourself from
getting involved with a bull? Or what happens if you fall in
(01:50):
love with a bull or a bull fallsin love with you?
Nah, what the hell you do then. And so, so that's actually
happened to me twice. No.
So. So I'm going to sort of just
walk you through my experience but I want to call on Venus to
to share her experience too withhow she manages connection or
(02:11):
lack thereof, that lack thereof.We all want something a little
different and the challenge I think in this lifestyle a lot is
I've had a lot of challenge finding acceptable lovers or
bulls or whatever you want to call them or classify them.
A lot of what I see that a lot have come out of, you know,
(02:34):
maybe the swinging community andthey my impression has been, and
this is just my experience, I'm not speaking to all anybody, but
my experience has been that they're mostly happy with, you
know, being able to just like stop over, you know, give you
some Dick and then drive away. And you know, there's a place
(02:57):
for that in life. There's, you know, there's a
place for that, but it's not what I typically want.
I I want more connection. I want more somebody that I can
actually get to know, somebody that I can be friends with and
somebody that there's chemistry with.
And it's been very, very, very hard to find.
(03:19):
I live in an area that is not geographically diverse you know
and when you're you're chosen partner is always black.
It's it's harder it's it makes it harder.
So so anyway I want to launch atVenus.
Do you have any thoughts to openthis up with it and I'll go
ahead and share my experience and then we can unpack it a
(03:41):
little bit. But what are your initial
thoughts like have you found yourself trying to avoid
connection or trying to make connection?
What is your particular approachwhen you are with or you find
somebody that you're attracted to?
How do you, how do you foster that?
First of all, thank you so much for having me on the show once
(04:04):
again, I love chatting with you.I feel like we can just like
dive into these things and just pick it all apart, put it all
back together to try to better understand it.
So I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to be on
the show with you again. So thank you for that and this
topic. This topic is like, it's so
complex and it's so deep and it's so provocative and it's
(04:29):
such a big issue. I could call it, I guess, an
issue. In this lifestyle.
It can be an issue. And so I'm so happy that we are
discussing this part of it, thisaspect of it now, back, way back
when, when I first learned abouta couple of things, I was like,
wow, that sounds like amazing. You can have this amazing,
loyal, a loving partner, and youcan also have these amazing
(04:54):
sexual experiences on the side and it be just everything that
you want it to be. And I was just like, oh, that's
awesome. But then I was like, I was
meeting cucks who really wanted to find a woman who wants that
romantic connection with their bull as well.
(05:15):
In fact, some who wanted them all, us all to live together and
I was fascinated by that becauseI'm like, isn't that a little
dangerous? Like don't you think that maybe
you could be replaced or something or you no longer need
it in that situation? Isn't that like risky for your
relationship. And.
(05:36):
And one of my coke friends explained to me, he said,
actually it is that level of risk.
It is that level of of fear and angst that at that of danger,
that makes me want it. It's appealing.
And I was like, oh fuck this, The mind of a cuck is something
else. Let me tell.
(05:56):
You right? Nobody thinks like them but
them. And I'm like holy shit.
Like that's brave, man. That's fucking brave.
Like brave. And and then I came across
stories about and I have over the years of of guys who have
you know indulged in this lifestyle with their wife and
(06:18):
then their wife leaves them for the bull.
I hear this not I want to say often but enough times to make
me feel really shitty about that.
Like that sucks and it's devastating and their
relationship ends and or their marriage ends and sometimes they
have families this breaks up their family and like it's it's
really devastating. And so I've heard stories like
(06:40):
that. And I've also heard from cucks
that most of the cucks who say that they really want that
boundary there where there's no feelings involved between their
girlfriend or wife and the bull because that's fucking scary and
don't wanna go there. And I I don't wanna compromise
(07:01):
our relationship. And so that is like a hard
boundary for a lot of them because it is their biggest fear
of losing their loved one to a ball.
And so, like, it's amazing we don't talk about this more often
in the lifestyle. Like, of all the conversations
that we have, they're all very sexy.
(07:21):
They're all very fun. It's very like, oh, this is hot.
You know, let's talk about interracial.
Let's talk about big Dicks. Let's talk about, like, sexy
scenarios and fantasies and all that sort of stuff.
But like, we really do need to explore this topic of feelings
getting caught. So I have witnessed couples who
(07:42):
their relationship has ended or it has been in deep, deep
trouble because feelings were caught.
And I have witnessed relationships that have been OK
and been able to to transition into that kind of Poly triad
kind of dynamic set up. And I've been asked many times
(08:05):
over the years, you know, what are your feelings on this?
What, what kind of setup do you want?
And I my answer has a little bit, you know, changed a little
bit over the years. In the beginning I was like,
well, you know, I don't think I could do the feelings caught
thing because that sounds very complicated.
(08:25):
I mean, polyamory is fucking hard.
It's not easy. It's not easy to pull off.
And I know this because I have friends who are polyamorous and
I hear it all the time. It's hard.
It's not easy. And so I'm like, OK, there's
there's that part of it. I just feel like that would be
really complex. But also, I do have this
(08:46):
underlying feeling that my, my, my relationship with my husband
might be in danger if that were to happen.
And so it scares me. It really does scare me because
I've been in love before. You've been in love before,
we've all been in love before. It's fucking like you get all
(09:08):
caught up in it. You get to the point where
you're not thinking right, or you are making decisions based
purely on need and want and not on rational thought.
And so it's scary. I know the potential for fucked
up decisions to be made on my part and I'm in love.
(09:31):
I know we've got real capacity. I have made mistakes.
So have I ever. And so yeah, I have this real,
real thing about, you know, maybe I would lose my husband
and I don't really know if I want to go there.
Now, having said all of that, I do look for connection with my
(09:52):
bulls. I mean, I can absolutely fuck
somebody and not have to have connection.
I could just have, like, you know, whatever, let's just fuck.
But like I over the years have been able to really realize
there's so much value in that kind of emotional intimacy,
(10:12):
sexual intimacy that you have with your partner and it this
idea that it has to then no matter what snowball into love.
I don't buy that shit. And I think that that maybe
originates from those people whothink that sex equals love.
And so if you have sex, then it should be love.
(10:37):
And I'm like no, no, no, no, no.And so that's why I'm like
people can have sex and it not be a full on relationship.
It might not even be a relationship at all.
It's just a friendship and like,this is so hard for a lot of
people to understand, but I don't think that it necessarily
has to go down that road of falling in love with somebody.
(11:00):
I have not fallen in love with abull.
I have definitely had platonic love with a bull.
I've had a bull fall in love with me, and that was disastrous
for our relationship because he wanted more, he needed more.
And then he was heartbroken whenhe couldn't have more.
So that was, oh God, it was the best Dick ever, too.
(11:21):
Had to give up the best Dick ever.
Oh no, I. Know tragedy.
But yeah, no, there was just it was too hard on him.
So. So yeah, I think I just blurted
out like a whole lot right there.
But those are my feelings when Ithink about this subject, about,
you know, where I'm at. Well, thank you for sharing that
(11:46):
and and you're right, it is it, it is so much.
It is. There's so much involved in that
discussion and A and a billion different variations of it.
I mean, for every person that exists on earth, that has their
own whatever, their dynamic is, this whole arena of love and
relationships can be complicated.
(12:08):
And when you're playing in the dynamics that we play in, it's
even more so. So I'll kind of explain how my
thinking has evolved over time and how I I like the point that
you brought up, like and this isthe question that I get most
often from others is when they find out that I have an
(12:31):
involvement. Well, what does your husband
think about that? You know, what's what's his
response, what's his. So, so we'll unpack that a
little bit because he and I havespent a great deal of time
unpacking all of this over yearsover years because every person
that we meet that we have an experience with, it reshapes us
in some way and it's so it's just evolved.
(12:52):
But so I'm like you I, I don't have any stuff about finding
somebody that I'm attracted to and just helping them.
I mean there's I mean what the. Yes, I say yes to that.
Absolutely. Let's go however, on a longer
term basis and part of this is based out of my own, I think
(13:14):
based out of my own frustration from the difficulty of finding
acceptable partners in the area that I live in.
So how that has that that lack of exposure to people that I'm
attracted to has certainly shaped my point of view and my
methodology and how I've gone about this.
(13:35):
And then when you throw into themix, you know, almost three
years of COVID isolation, I was always a connector.
I mean, I always, I've always considered myself demisexual.
I I need connection, you know? And if if I'm only going to see
you once and we're both open andhonest about that and we both
want to do it, well, there's no problem with that.
I'm all about it. But for the most part, it's so
(13:59):
hard for me to find somebody that I like anyway.
If I find somebody that I like, I want to see them more than
once. And I want something of quality.
And in terms of the sex and the connection and the communication
and just the enjoyability factor, for me it requires
connection. So I say no, a lot more than I
(14:22):
say yes. I mean, I had a guy that emailed
me two days ago, haven't talked to him for months.
He says, hey, is your teenager at home.
I'd like to come by and, you know, give you some Dick or
something like that. I mean it was just, it was just
about that grass. And I'm going like, what what
planet, what planet are you from?
I mean you could have said, hi, how you doing, Hey, what are you
(14:45):
doing today? You know, it's just this
assumption I think and I think it's especially this is just my
perception. I could be completely wrong
about everything that I think. And so I'll disclaimer that
right off the bat, but I think it's especially common when
people are approaching a marriedwoman.
They just assume that they don'thave to put anything into this
(15:06):
at all because I have a husband and all they want to do is throw
out some Dick and that should begood enough.
And and mostly it isn't for me. I just don't find straight on
Dick without conversation and without something in common.
Maybe couples are treating him that way and that's why he
assumes it's the norm. Yeah, I I don't know.
(15:26):
But it's it happens often enoughthat I I think it's pretty it's
just pretty common. So.
So I just thought, well, you know I want what I want.
What I want is somebody that's at least willing to put a
modicum of energy into this, to be friends, to get to know me a
little bit, let me get to know him a little bit, and then we
can decide together how we want everything to go.
(15:50):
And so that's sort of been my MOall along.
Well, so I'd given up. I had given up on finding my
husband and I had talked some time ago with another lover who
wanted to be a full time polyamorous throuple with us.
Unfortunately, he didn't inform his wife about that.
So it didn't work out. Right.
(16:13):
Right. But we.
Yeah, I know. See the so it's like that, you
know, you find one that you really, really like and
everybody gets along and everybody's all about it.
And yeah, maybe you ought to tell your wife.
No, I don't think so. OK, See ya.
So anyway, that's how that went.But so I've just been going
along and I just assume that, you know, at once in a blue
moon, I might find somebody thatI find interesting, but it
(16:36):
really is blue moon time. So anyway, about must have been
March or so this year. Really, very recently I met a
man and we just had a wonderful first date, Just very engaged
conversation, lots in common, funny, smart, conversant about a
(17:01):
lot of things. And we decided that we would see
each other. And so I was happy about that.
I thought, yeah, this would be, this would be a great guy to get
to know. And so anyway, we started seeing
each other. Well, he's not been terribly
available because he happens to be employed by the NBA, which
just eats his life away. And so he's gone more than he's
(17:25):
here. He he does live in my city, but
he's gone especially during the season and then I'm fighting
even after the season. You know, there's a million
other things he has to do for his thing and so and as we speak
he's in LA recuperating from exhaustion.
And so, yeah, so I got, I got todo regular old wife nagging on
(17:46):
that. And you know, you know, this is
also what they sign up for. Wife nagging like, fuck you
guys, work yourselves to death and then you die 10 years
younger than us and what the fuck we keep telling you to
carve out some more time. But you know, so so I reserve
the right to nag my lover too. So anyway, he's a wonderful
human being. He's the one out of the clear
(18:10):
blue sky. Not too too long ago declared
his love for me and I started thinking about it.
So the first conversation I haveis with my husband, you know,
and I said, look, I really like this guy.
I would like to see what's available here.
I don't know, you know, just getting to know each other.
(18:31):
But the more that we saw each other, the more that it became
apparent that we we were, we were absolutely involved.
And I wanted to be and he wantedto be.
And my husband is completely OK with it.
He's already thrown up the whiteflag.
Like I know you're way more thanwhat I can manage on my own.
So please call it. Please call in the help, you
(18:54):
know. And that's that's kind of his
position. But so anyway, so that's how
we've been going. And so it's given us good, I
think, to answer one of the issues that you brought up, like
how how do we engage in this andnot threaten my primary
relationship with my husband andwhat he and I have talked a lot
(19:15):
about is this need for. And what frequently goes stale
in, I think all kinds of relationships, not just
marriages, but this new relationship energy when you're
just discovering someone and there's a lot of passion and
that all that all that feeds into that new relationship
energy. It's a real thing, and it
energizes my husband as much as it energizes me because it's
(19:39):
like like the whole dial gets dialed up about 10 levels and
there, you know, and it's charged and he gets, he gets
some of that too. We're very, very clear on no
matter how involved I might get with someone, we are not.
We've already been through 2 divorces, which were incredibly,
(20:00):
staggeringly expensive for both of us.
Both of us paid out these massive settlements.
So there there's an issue of practicality here.
There's no such thing as more divorce in our world or we might
as well just, you know, jump offthe roof.
So. So we don't even accept that as
a possibility. And I know for many people that
that's, you know, they're not inthat situation where they feel
(20:22):
like, gosh, if I felt vulnerableenough to love someone.
It it might, it might challenge my loyalty to my partner.
My husband and I are not experiencing it that way.
We we have fully signed off on. We believe.
We always believed, in theory, that as human beings we have
(20:43):
capacity to love more than one person.
That doesn't mean that you have to take something away from
person A in order to love personB, but it is more complicated as
you said, you know it requires, I think it requires that all
three people be highly emotionally intelligent, very
(21:03):
open, honest and authentic aboutwhat they're feeling and what
they need and how they fit in. And we have been able to do that
in the in the short amount of time that we've been together
and so so, So we're going down that road.
He probably is very likely goingto move in here temporarily.
(21:24):
He's just building a new house and that house obviously
construction is behind as all construction seems to be while
his house is getting finished sohe'll so then we it forced us
because we do have a 16 year oldthat lives here.
We had to sit down with the minor child and say we didn't.
(21:45):
We're in a custody. We're.
I don't want to drag everybody through our whole drama here,
but we're in a custody battle for this child and we have not
had her full time until now. She's requested, she's requested
that my husband have take full custody of her.
She's become alien, completely alienated from her mother.
(22:06):
So now we have a minor child in the house, which complicates our
adult activities, you should say.
So what we did early on, and my husband took this on of his own
accord. We sat down at dinner and said,
you know, we wanted to talk to you about something.
You know, it was never necessaryuntil now.
But now that you're living here,we felt like we wanted to let
(22:28):
you know that we are Polly. And she knew what Polly was.
And, you know, he said we've always been that way.
It's just was no, was not necessary to talk to you about
it, 'cause you, you weren't hereand you wouldn't have an
occasion to meet anyone. But you know you're going to
meet this person. You know, we had plans to go to
brunch with him and we did last,I think it was last week or two
(22:52):
weeks ago and she was totally cool with it.
So. So that's something, you know,
for for my husband to tell his only child that we are embracing
this, that he's comfortable enough to share that with his
child and and we were prepared to respond any any kind of
(23:14):
appropriate way to her if she had concerns about it.
But she's cool. I mean she thinks, you know, she
doesn't see anything wrong. I mean, the younger generation
doesn't have nearly as much stuff about this as we do.
I don't give a fuck, I. Don't.
I don't. It's like, hey, of course you
do. Isn't everybody, you know, It
was kind of like that. It was kind of like that.
(23:35):
And so that part's been really easy and really fun.
So, so I get it that for most couples it can be a huge threat
that very, you know, if if you take this the scope of all human
beings and you, you narrow it down to this very, very narrow
stratum of people who are interested in cuckoldry.
(23:56):
And then you further narrow thatdown by cuckold couples that are
willing to actually branch out into polyamory.
You know, we are a a minuscule subset.
It's a very, very small subset. I most people that I know of,
our friends that are swingers and whatnot, most of them, most
(24:16):
of them make efforts to not get too attached.
Sometimes that means, I mean andthese are people that actually
have access to people that they're attracted to, unlike me,
that they have enough to choose from that they can do that.
You know, it just that just wasn't an option for me.
So. So that's kind of how we landed
in this I, you know, who knows what's going to go because you
(24:37):
know, come October, you know he's pretty much gone for the
next eight months after that. And so on his side of the fence,
I've gotten some questions aboutthis like why would a bull want
to get all involved in a cuckoldor any couple.
Well, the answer for him, his answer was from his own
(24:58):
perspective is that he has this very challenging career that
takes him on the road 8 months out of every twelve he makes.
It makes it he he's felt like it's been impossible to foster a
primary relationship because of that.
He because he's he he just can'tbe a full time partner at this
time. Now he's planning to retire next
(25:20):
year. So maybe this may be the fact
that he allowed himself to become vulnerable this time and
get involved in this. It might be.
That might be part of the reason.
I don't know. I haven't asked him that.
But it's possible because here'swhat I think.
I believe, You know, we're all just people.
All of us want to love and be loved.
All of us want to desire and be desired.
(25:41):
We all want that, you know, on what terms we're willing to
accept. What's available to us, I think
is where the real questions reside.
And so for us, I want somebody that I can be connected to.
I'm too. I've been too isolated through
COVID the zipless can I just come by and fuck you Guy is not
(26:02):
interesting to me. In spite.
I do have moments in the day andin the late night that it sounds
really good to me, but he's never around then fuckers are
always some other odd time that I can't, you know, so tiny,
tiny. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta,
you know ask a little bit more often to find a time that works.
(26:24):
So I don't know it, it is complicated.
But I felt like it's worth it toexplore this a little bit just
because I know that other peoplehave concerns about it, don't
wouldn't know how to navigate itif it if it happened, you know.
And one of the things that I cansee can possibly come up.
(26:44):
And again, we haven't had enoughtime to really write the ground
rules for what we're doing. But when he goes out again with,
you know, when the season startsagain, does he, is he going to
expect me to be mostly celibate during that time?
(27:06):
Oh yeah. You know, and it's like, I don't
think I could do that. You know.
Just like you and I were conspiring to make a sandwich
with some king at at Mokai. You know that could still
happen. I don't know.
But you know, I, you know, so soit's speed bumps like that that
(27:26):
you have to work through. Like what am I going to do?
If he says I absolutely, positively don't want you being
with anyone else, even when I'm on the road, what's my response
going to be? So I have a couple of months in
here to think that over. But bottom line is it's going to
require that all three of us sitdown and hammer out the ground
(27:48):
rules. Because I'm not going to, you
know, I'm too far into this, youknow, I could tell complete
truth to my husband and then I end up cheating on my boyfriend.
You know, it's that doesn't seemlike that's in integrity.
So we have to we have to figure that out.
And I don't know what the answeris going to because I'm, I don't
feel like I want to sit here, you know, And there will be
(28:09):
things like mocha or something that will come up from time to
time. I'm not a swinger.
I don't go to swinger parties oranything like that.
But Mocha's fun. It's really fun.
It's really super fun. And so anyway, that's that's
kind of how we got here. It it will be an unfolding
story. But I think it's, you know, it's
relevant for us. We we do, both of us.
(28:31):
My husband and I both embrace the notion that human beings do
have the capacity love more thanone person and it doesn't
necessarily have to destroy the first one to accept the second
one. And so we are, we will be
practicing that over the next however long this thing might
last. And so that's that's what we're
(28:53):
doing. But yeah, it's complicated.
It can be complicated And like everything else that that you
and I have both always talked about, you know, communicate,
deep communication is the key. Where's everybody at?
What do they want? And I think the key thing in
finding a partner is to, whetheryou're looking for a cuck, A
(29:14):
cuckoldress or a bowl, you have to find the person that wants
what you want. That's like the most important
thing. You have to find somebody that
wants what you want. And so that's a that's a
question I would take a deep dive into When you're first
meeting people, You know, find out to the best of your ability
or to the best of their ability to know themselves, you know,
(29:37):
what actually do they want? You know, in this case, my
boyfriend wants all the goodies of a real relationship and not
in a real position to provide that at least not 12 months out
of the year. But he still wants it.
He still wants it. So should he not have that
because he's got a complication over there?
(29:58):
I don't know. Who am I to say he shouldn't
have that? So anyway, so that's how we go.
I think what you said about emotional intelligence being
critical to the success of you know this working out.
I think that is totally true. The communication level that has
(30:20):
to be on point. It has to be on point.
But there was something you mentioned that I can I I get,
which is that whole new relationship energy and that's
what you want and that's what you seek and you enjoy and
you're feeding off of it. He's feeding off of it.
You're all three. You feeding off of it and it's
great and you're in that stage, which is like amazing.
(30:43):
What happens when that fades? Because I think it can and will
at some point. I mean, this is sort of the
whole point of Doctor Lei's bookInsatiable Wives is that we do
get bored. We get bored, we get bored, we
(31:03):
just get bored. And surprisingly, women quicker
and more frequently than men do.And so it's very, very possible
that that would happen, which is, I guess why my answer to
that is you have to circle back and figure out what your
agreements are. You know, if I find my, you
know, if this person over here, absolutely.
(31:26):
His happiness is dependent on mebeing only with him and my
husband. You know, is that going to play
with me? I don't know.
It's. Complicated.
Yeah. Don't.
Ask me the hard questions. Keep me with us.
That's a simple question. Not the hard ones.
(31:48):
Yeah, that's that'd be really hard.
That'd be really hard for me. So.
Because I've seen, I I know you said your bowl is like going to
be moving in temporarily. And I get that.
It's it's helpful a situation for him while he's waiting for
his house to be built. But I have witnessed couples in
the lifestyle where the bull hasmoved in permanently with them
(32:11):
and their kids and everything like that and and I wonder about
that and like, if that new relationship energy, it is
fucking amazing right now, it iseverything.
You are on cloud nine. It is great.
It's all exciting and everythinglike that and you can't imagine
it ever changing. And it does.
(32:32):
I mean we're we're all adults. We know how it works with
relationships that goes away. And then all of a sudden you
start to get annoyed by how they, you know, leave the toilet
seat up or you know, like, you know, their real fucking shit
comes in and you're like, oh man, this person's starting to
piss me off. And like, it's fun as it used to
be. And like, there's chores and
(32:53):
there's, you know, all this regular shit and you're like,
the honeymoon is over. Right.
No. And that's that's very real.
That's very real. I I think that's just realistic.
I mean, it's one of the other topics that you and I took on.
Maybe it was the last time, you know, how do you juggle these
two conflicting needs? You know, your need for safety
and security, your need for adventure.
(33:15):
Well, just because you have a husband and a boyfriend, you
still have to confront those that conflict even with the
boyfriend or and any subsequent boyfriend.
How do you find safety in it Andhow do you find, you know, when
the when the need for adventure asserts itself, what do you
where do you go with that? So yeah so we're nobody's immune
(33:38):
from those two questions. I don't care who you're with or
you know, my my husband would say, well the obvious answer is
you need like 5 boyfriends. You know that's what he would.
And we say yes, yes, if you could just find 5 that I would
like I'll do that and you know he can't and nor can I.
So you know that's a false. That's a false notion, but well,
(34:01):
is. There is, is there?
Would there be an option? I'm just thinking this through,
like, you know, if you are in love with your bull and he's in
love with you and you think thiswhole situation can work out and
you know, in your mind it seems like, yeah, we could do this and
you've had the conversations andeverything like that.
Is it something that you can plan out and be like, OK, we're
(34:24):
going to do this for now and it not be like, I'm going to, you
know, you're going to be part ofthis triad for the rest of our
lives kind of thing. Like, you know how when you
commit to your husband, you're like, I can't imagine my life
without him, right? You're like, I love this man.
I'm going to spend the rest of my life with this man and I get
(34:45):
that. But when it comes to bringing in
this other person who you love with the same amount of love,
probably. Can it be something that doesn't
require that lifetime commitmentand instead just be like, this
is gonna what's gonna work for us right now?
And we'll see where that goes. I mean, I think part of the
(35:08):
conversation, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we need more
physical time together, all three of us, to just air out a
lot of this stuff. But I think that's absolutely
that's the most practical approach of anything.
I mean, who knows what next weekwill bring or next year?
You know, we can't possibly knowthat.
So the only the best I think we can do now is to sit down
(35:31):
together and say what each one of us what do each one of us
want out of this? How do we see it going and what
what is our, you know, what are we striving toward?
And is there an intersection of that?
We all meet someplace that we could agree on.
But I think it's it's the same thing that happens in all Poly
(35:55):
relationships sooner or later that, you know, the secondary
lovers, you know, as much as youdon't want there to be like a
value judgment on it. Well, there is.
I mean, I'm legally married to aperson and not legally married
to the other person and. And so how does that skew
(36:17):
priorities and commitments and stuff like that.
So I I just don't think there's any, I don't think there's any
way to pre plan that. I think the only thing that I
can see to do is to just continue to be totally open and
honest about where we, where we are, what we want and and any
agreement, I mean, if we're gonna make any agreement right
(36:37):
now, it's the agreement to be completely honest about where we
are and if things change that we're going to have enough
integrity to let everybody know.Yeah, I don't know what we can
do beyond that, really. And then just take it a day at a
time. Well I I had a conversation with
Kennedy because she my friend Kennedy because she brought up
(36:57):
this that term platonic love forboth and I was like oh that's
it. Because you can have.
I think in my experience anyway,deep connected feelings with a
bull. I mean and then they're they're
a really important part of my life and I value them so much
(37:21):
outside of just the sexual realm.
And I think the really interesting thing about that is
I don't know if that person's going to fall in love with
someone and get married and I never have that.
You know I don't see them anymore.
There is that unknown of I don'thave this person for the rest of
(37:44):
my life, but I love them in my life right now.
And so there's something so interesting about that because
you don't feel that way about your husband, 'cause you're
like, I love him and I'm going to be with him forever.
But then you also have these people in your life who you
don't. It's kind of like you don't know
what the outcome is going to be.You don't know when that day is
(38:05):
going to come, when they are going to, you know, move on and
do something else and whatever you'll be, you'll be happy for
them. Sad, but happy and but you, you
just don't know. And I think for me anyway, the
fact that that does feel temporary helps me to appreciate
them right now in the moment even more because you don't.
(38:29):
It's not guaranteed you don't have this person in your life
forever. Right.
Right. So I think there is that
possibility of being able to have those really amazing feel
feelings with someone and but still realizing that, hey, this
might not work out in the long run kind of thing.
I don't know. Right.
No, I think that's, I think that's very sensible and it's
(38:52):
it's a sensible, practical approach to it.
We have friends. We have a couple of friends
actually that got deeply involved with the bull.
And then in both cases the bull became frustrated with not
having the wife be exclusive with them.
(39:13):
And so they left the relationship to find somebody to
be with them, just one-on-one and and everybody's heartbroken,
everybody's heartbroken. And then in one case, the bull
came back saying he made a terrible mistake and he'd rather
have her partially than anybody else completely so.
(39:35):
So this is the complexity of human beings, you know, that
could happen at any time. And I think when you're talking
about a secondary partner, the the piece you can never anchor
in is the safety piece, 'cause it's not safe in terms of
there's no guarantees here there, you know, there's no
guarantees that this person's gonna be here next week or next
year, you know. So the the safety component is
(39:59):
not the same. You you can still have the
adventure component, but withoutthat commitment, I guess.
And I'm not sure that I'm even looking for that.
I mean, it's just it's just unfolding.
I'm trying to just play this dayby day without.
Oh, I can imagine that it must be a lot to process.
(40:19):
It is. I mean, me sitting up here in,
you know, no man's Land in termsof finding the kind of man that
I am typically attracted to and then you find one that's just
like all in. I mean, it's, yeah, it's a lot
from my old brain to wrap itselfaround and it's super fun and I
like it. But yeah, we have all these
things to discern. I I don't know how it's going to
(40:41):
go. You know, what I do know is that
I'm confident that both my husband and I live with
integrity. We're not looking to take
advantage of anyone or misrepresent anything that we're
doing or anything that we are. I mean, actually, my bull's
biggest challenge will not be meand my nagging.
It will be my husband going well, we'll find three more
(41:03):
bulls. That's this answer.
You know. And the and the other guy's
going, no, no, no, I don't want that.
No, no. You know, so he's gonna have to
rein in my husband. So.
I can see this like the actor's in a sitcom.
I can just. See it?
Right, right, right, right, right.
The husband's saying go. The boyfriend's saying no, stop.
(41:25):
So anyway, yeah, so that's kind of how it is.
And it's it's enjoyable, but I thought it was a good
conversation, a good conversation to have with you,
just because I do think it needsto get aired out.
These are deep questions that prevent a lot of people from
stepping forward just to explorethings 'cause they think, Oh my
God, what happens if that happens?
What happens if that happens? And they get so many of those
(41:47):
what ifs that they just don't move forward at all.
So, you know, and another part of our general philosophy is
none of us know how much runway we have left in life.
We just don't know, you know, wewould rather roll the dice and
live, live as large as we can, have as much love and foster as
much love in our life as we can,and with no guarantees that you
(42:11):
know that it's going to last past tomorrow.
I mean, we don't have any those kind of guarantees, but we would
rather take the risk and play play big while we can, you know,
'cause there'll come a day that we probably can't.
You know, my my dear husband hasalready made me promise that if
I drop dead, then I will him to you.
(42:33):
So what? So one of these, one of these
days, you know, if he shows up on your doorstep with a little
suitcase and a bow on his neck, you'll know that I have passed
away and and and he will be my special gift to you.
Oh my God, I love. You at at his at his request, he
goes, yeah OK you can go ahead and die as long as I can stay
(42:54):
with Venus. So anyway.
Oh my God, I know. So, so yeah.
So a little bit of humor and a little bit of authenticity, and
that just kind of gets us through the day.
Well, I think it's absolutely great and brave.
I, I I will say it's brave of you guys to go down this road
(43:16):
together, but it sounds to me like you have such a solid
relationship and that like really really high level of
communication and honesty that is required.
So you have all of the tools already that you need to be able
to do this and so good for you. This is a relationship where the
(43:40):
woman asks for what she wants and gets what she wants, and
that's what you're doing. So.
Yeah, yeah, that that was my first impression.
Like, jeez, it's like the dog that caught the car.
You know what? You know, my eyes going, what I
caught the car. What, this thing I thought I
always wanted. Now what the hell do I do with
it? You know, it's like, what?
(44:00):
But no, it's it's really true I think.
And the and the moral of that story is patience.
You know, if you, you know, it might take you years and years
to find what you really want. It might.
It might. But what's my alternative?
You know, I get back to that. I only have so much runway left.
What's my alternative? Do I just give up?
(44:21):
Because it's hard. You know, my choice was, well,
I'm going to keep, you know, interviewing people because I
just don't know. I don't know what's in the
cards. And you know, he came tripping
down the road and here we are, so.
Well let me just say you had theeasiest search for a cock
husband and now you've had the hardest search for a bull and I
(44:43):
have had an easy time finding bulls and the worst time finding
a cock. So there you go.
Or even I just can't imagine that you have trouble finding a
cock. And so you know, if we lived any
closer, I I would. I would lend you, I would lend
you mine. And he could he could be a cold
cuck or something like that. And I don't.
Even know that like you just like you, you're not looking for
(45:05):
a bull, you're looking for the bull.
And I'm not looking for, just. A cuck cuck, Yes.
B, is that right? Yeah.
The one. The one.
Yeah. Yeah, the one.
And I'm confident that you will find, I mean, A, with all the
stuff that you do already and you know, you're fairly high
profile. I'm confident that you will.
But the truth is it's not easy for any of us.
(45:25):
And that that's my last message of hope for our listeners is
none of this is easy necessarily.
It's just you get to define how do you want to invest your life
energy for the time that you have left, knowing that none of
us know how much time we have left.
You get to pick how do you want to invest your life energy in
finding the things that make your heart sing.
(45:46):
I mean, there's no other question really but that one.
And then then go about that business knowing that it it
might take way more time than you wanted and it might be
harder than what you wanted, butwhat's your alternative?
Exactly. What's my alternative?
Nothing so. Netflix and chill till I die.
(46:09):
Well, I love the. Saying of yours, I don't know
how much runway I have left. I'm like, that's so perfect.
You have the funniest sayings ofanyone I talk to.
Is so funny. Well, yeah, I I think that,
yeah, it's true. We don't, we don't know how much
runaway we have. And we might as well be about
the game of life and and playingit our way.
(46:31):
And, you know, it's kept us alive and thriving and happy.
And you know, I'm never, ever, ever bored with my husband ever,
ever. You know, his solution to
everything is you need a new boat.
And I go, Yeah, you're all right.
Where the hell am I gonna find one of those?
He's the child. Venus has got all the bulls.
(46:51):
I don't have any bulls. The Venus no sharing is caring.
Absolutely, I'm 100%. Well, you know what?
We should, we should continue this chat on the Moan app, I
think. I think we should It would be
fun if we should. We should.
Let's do that. So OK, so we'll wrap this up for
(47:13):
now. I will put all of Venus's the
contact information. Oh, I did get your magazine
article uploaded on my website, too.
I want to let you know that. Oh, wonderful.
It's it's such good content. I will put all of the stuff in
the show notes. But for those of you who do not
have the Moan app, that is an app that you can upload on
either an iPhone or an Android. Now it's Mon.
(47:36):
Wherever you get your apps, upload that app and and then
look for an episode. We will schedule that and
continue this conversation and then we can have it live with
you people that are interested in the topic.
So that's a. Great idea, I can ask you.
Questions. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Thank you again, Venus.
I always love talking to you. We'll we'll come up with 10 more
(47:57):
weird things to talk about before, before the year, before
the year's done. OK.
Talk to you soon. Thank you for tuning in.
You can access Crystal's latest blog and podcast at C Welch Poly
on Medium and find her on Twitter at Crystal Welch 99.
Your questions and comments are always welcome.
(48:20):
Also, if you're enjoying the show, please feel free to rate,
subscribe, or leave a review wherever you listen to your
podcasts. We appreciate it and we'll catch
you in the next episode.
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