September 5, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode of the Beyond Normal Podcast, we sit down with Zachary Nunn, founder and CEO of Living Corporate, to unpack how he’s using AI, analytics, and storytelling to change the way companies think about equity and experience at work. From consulting with Fortune 500s to amplifying marginalized voices through his own platform, Zach shares a transparent look at what it takes to build trust inside today’s workplace.
Listen in as we explore the role of strategic communications, executive alignment, and the power of staying true to your values—even when it’s uncomfortable. Whether you’re a founder, people leader, or creative builder, this episode delivers a masterclass in building impact that lasts beyond the moment.
Thanks for tuning into the Beyond Normal Podcast!
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🔗 Learn more about Zach’s work at: https://living-corporate.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kenny (00:33):
Welcome, welcome to another great episode of The
Beyond Normal Podcast.
I am your host, Kenny Groom.
As you know, our little motto orour saying is, every founder
story is a journey worthexploring.
we have a founder here with ustoday by the name of Zachary
Nunn.
he is the, I'm not sure you goby founder, right?
(00:58):
You're.
You go by a different title, yougo by Chief Executive Officer.
I had to make sure that I gotthat, that that note.
Correct.
He's the Chief Executive Officerof Living Corporate.
They are an experiencemanagement, company.
They focus on prioritizingworkplace fairness.
In addition to that, he's also.
got an amazing content engine,if I can call it that, behind
(01:21):
Living Corporate, where they putout some amazing, video-based
conversations, podcasts, if youwill.
And so this is right up my,angle in terms of talking to a
fellow podcaster.
So without further ado, let'sbring Zachary to the stage.
How's it going, Zachary?
Zach (01:36):
Hey, it is going well.
Thank you for having me,brother.
Kenny (01:39):
I'm so excited to, dive into, the, the conversation
today with you, as we both havebeen on this content journey.
I have definitely.
I think at first I was admiringyour content strategy from afar
and as we've connected over the,say the last year or so, it's
been really exciting to see, yougrow with your, you're building
(02:01):
that live in corporate.
So let's start out.
From the beginning,
Zach (02:05):
Yeah.
Kenny (02:06):
you were actually, you took that leap of faith and,
became the CEO of LivingCorporate.
What were you doing with yourlife?
Zach (02:14):
Yeah, man.
great question.
Shoot.
I was just, I mean, I'm, I feellike I still am, man, I was just
outside trying to figure it out,right?
Like, you know, I, you know, I'mthinking about, I graduated from
the University of Houston backin 2011, and I started my career
in human resources at Target.
And I just remember being one ofthe onlys in any space, six to 2
(02:39):
85, big dude, right?
Trying to just navigate theworld of work, and in majority
white spaces and dealing withthe micro macroaggressions of
work and being one of the onlyin any space I, any room I walk
in.
I think over time I realized I,and I kept on looking for the
(03:03):
solution and like you might aska question like, what do you
mean?
Like, what do you mean bysolution?
Like, what is the solution forthe, for the people on the
margins?
Like where do they go foraffirmation and where do they go
for real authentic support?
Where do they go for advocacy?
Where do they go for unfilteredguidance?
(03:23):
And I kept looking for thosesolutions.
In the context of my jobs.
So I'd go to the employeeresource groups, I would go to
Human resources.
I would try to stand up thingsinternally.
I would go to older mentors,potential mentors or people that
looked like me who had been inposition longer.
and you know, I would havevarying degrees of success, but
(03:44):
that was me before LivingCorporate.
It was, hey, young, new,professional, large black dude,
just trying to navigate theworld to work and figure out.
Where I fit and how I can, youknow, finish every day without
being so utterly drained orfeeling like I failed in some
way, which is a really commonexperience for those on the
(04:06):
margins.
Kenny (04:08):
As you were talking and you said something at the
beginning, you said 2011Houston.
In my mind, what instantlypopped up was what a time to be
alive.
I'm not sure how Houston was atthat time.
As somebody who has justrecently, visited Houston the
last couple years, I can
Zach (04:26):
Yeah.
Kenny (04:26):
it was an exciting place to be that time.
But like you're saying, from acorporate perspective.
there was some juxtapositionthere, right?
Where it wasn't the, what I canimagine Houston is on a day to
day, right, going out and, youknow, experiencing the city
versus living that corporatelife like you, like you were
(04:48):
talking about.
Zach (04:49):
Yeah, I mean, so it's interesting, right?
Like 2011, obviouslyeconomically we were like in a
different place.
also you think about like, Ithink, and especially I think
about.
like 2011, 2012,'cause that'sreally when those were really
critical years for me.
I graduated 2011.
I started working in June of2011.
but then I remember I bought myfirst home in 20.
(05:16):
Was it 2012?
Kenny (05:18):
Wow.
Zach (05:19):
20 12, 20 13.
But, but, but I just rememberthat season, like it was
different, right?
Like, I mean, I was just talkingto my wife about this, right?
So like for context, you know,our first home.
Our first home, we bought ourfirst home and it was a two
bedroom, no, three bedroom, twobath, and we, we bought it well
(05:41):
under six figures and like therewere several of those homes in
Houston at the time.
You know, 1 35, 80 5,000, ahundred, like a little over a
hundred thousand dollars to getyou a nice home.
Some like a hundred thousand,$120,000.
Get you a nice two, two storyhouse in Houston in certain
parts of Houston.
(06:01):
Right?
And so the landscape wascompletely different.
Work was different.
the idea of just like the, theidea of like, yes, yes, I came
into work looking for these verylike, affirming experiences, but
the job market was different,right?
Like you didn't have to haveyour own brand.
The concept of having a brandand working for someone was kind
(06:21):
of new.
That was kind of niche.
Everybody didn't have 30,000followers on Twitter, and
didn't, and had like fourdifferent side hustles and also
had a nine to five job.
Right.
Like, so it was a different timeand then, Yeah.
like to your illusion, like whata time to be alive.
I mean, also.
Like, musically, like theculturally I would say like the
space and the spot was differentbecause, because I think the
(06:44):
economics were different.
People were outside more andthey were outside differently.
Whereas to whereas now I thinkHouston is still, obviously It's
Houston is Houston, but it's notpopping in the same way, in my
opinion, that it was shoot,what, 15, 12.
to 15 years ago.
Kenny (07:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and that is a good pointbecause when I went to Houston
this time, I was actuallysurprised at the scale I.
Zach (07:13):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (07:14):
Houston, it has grown to, and I think when you, when in
some of the cities we've ex wewe've seen like when they grow
to a certain point, then likeculturally, there may be
something that's missing, right?
Like, or it, it morphs intosomething else.
Like we're going through thathere.
Folks know that my local marketis Charlotte, North Carolina,
(07:34):
where the city has grown to thepoint where there's now more
people who are not from here.
than people who are actuallyborn and raised here.
And so that brings a differentdynamic.
And from a cultural perspective,that definitely changes things,
I'll tell you.
All right.
Now, one of the things that'schanged since I've been in
Charlotte is the food.
(07:54):
the food is not as seasoned.
say that as it was when I firstcame to the city.
Believe it or not,
Zach (08:03):
No, I'm, I, no, I, no, it's, it's interesting, right?
Like I think the landscape, thel the landscape of food is cha
like, man, it's so interesting.
I think, especially with COVID,right?
Like there was, man, my wife andI just talked about this last
week.
Like there was so many spots inHouston that I loved, man, that
COVID, that pandemic man.
(08:25):
They just got rid of them spots.
Like a lot of those restaurantsjust aren't there.
Kenny (08:32):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (08:32):
then to your point about like, where we're at from like,
to likeI think some of it alsohas to do with just like the
lack, the the amount ofderegulation and just kinda
where we are, like from likeas alate stage capitalist society,
like you start seeingexperiences degrade while prices
increase, right.
So like when I talked to my mom,I asked her, I was likeHey, you
know, I'm curious, like you'veobviously been eating.
(08:56):
Your whole life, like, do youfeel like food has gotten worse?
She's like, yeah, food's gottenway worse.
She's like, you know, she'slike, so like some of the food,
like, you know, you might go tolike some southern, southern
style restaurant, right?
And get like the fried chickenand the.
greens and da da da.
She's like that kind of food.
She's like, we used to eat thatat lunch when I was in
elementary, middle school andhigh school.
She's like, because she's like,because them, those people was
(09:18):
cooking food from.
likethey likethis idea of evenlike being local only.
Like, that just wasn't the casewhen I was coming up because
obviously it was gonna be local.
We didn't have a bunch of frozenstuff coming in.
People was cooking the samestuff that you might eat from
so-and-so's house, you're gonnaeat at the school because that
lady works at the school.
Right.
(09:38):
and so she's like, she was justtalking to me about just how
experiences over time degrade.
Like even she was talking to meabout like JC Penney as an
example, like back in the day,JC Penney used to.
So, and tailor and fix yourclothes, but then as time goes
on, like that service don'tprovide, that's not anymore.
I remember, I remember, shoot, Ia smaller example when I was at,
(10:00):
when I used to go to Walmart,when I was a kid, Walmart would
fix your watch at the, at theWalmart.
But they outsource.
They outsource all that stuffnow.
Kenny (10:09):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (10:09):
I'm, and I'm only 35, right?
Like, so imagine if you 60 or 60plus and you looking around the
world, like how many things youjust see kind of degrade, have
degraded over time.
It's not the same, not the samequality, not the same
experience, but it's real, man.
It's real.
Kenny (10:26):
Yeah, for sure.
That's a lot of perspectivethere.
just thinking about likeyousaid, just being able to, the
shopping experience over theyears and food especially, just
something that's not the same aswhen my mom used to cook fried
chicken.
don't know what it is.
I'm sorry folks.
I had to go to fried chicken,but there's just something
(10:48):
nowadays when I taste somebodyelse's food, it ain't, it's not
the same experience.
And I think a big part of thatis like the, I don't know if
it's culture, but just the, likethe time that we were in,
everything culminated.
And when you had a meal and yousat down, and me and Zachary May
have broken bread like that,food tasted different.
Zach (11:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (11:14):
All right,
Zach (11:14):
It's true.
Kenny (11:15):
so let's, let's, let's pivot now, to your corporate
experience.
Let's, let's talk a little bitabout, so you spent, you, you
touched on this, briefly, right?
But you spent your corporatecareer in hr, That is not a path
that a lot of people.
Select, right.
(11:35):
In terms of, Hey, I'm gonna gointo HR rather
Zach (11:38):
Yeah.
Kenny (11:39):
career.
Like what did, like, what waswhat triggered you to go down
that path?
What did you see as anopportunity there?
Zach (11:48):
Yeah.
Look, I've always just beenpassionate about people.
and I like the idea of likebeing of service to folks and
supporting people and helpingthem grow and be successful.
I like, I, I believe that, Ibelieve then, and I still
believe now that people are thecenter of anything, any
organization.
It doesn't matter what it is.
If you don't have people,whether it's your people that
(12:11):
work for you or people that youneed to consume your product or
experience, you don't haveanything.
And so.
I believe that, and I stillbelieve that.
And so that's why to, for me,human resources was the closest
thing I could get to the people,and that's why I chose it.
Kenny (12:30):
Short and sweet.
I like that.
Now let, I wanna pivot.
'cause as you were just talking,a light bulb went off in my
head.
Now when you make the decisionin your head or you start to
think about, Hey, how do Icreate something of my own?
Zach (12:47):
Yep.
Kenny (12:47):
did see during your time as a hr, um.
HR executive, HR businesspartner.
Right.
as what did you see as, hey, thecompanies themselves don't
necessarily have thecapabilities or the solutions in
place to do this, but I can comein as a strategic partner and
(13:10):
fill this need.
Like what, what did you see thatthat helped you make that jump
to, starting your own business?
Zach (13:18):
You know, I, for me, I realized that human resources
and is really a functionultimately, like at its most
pessimistic human resources is arisk mitigation tool.
Or office for the comp for thecorporation.
They work for the company theywork for.
(13:40):
Human resources exist to serveat the pleasure of an executive
leadership to help tamp downrisk, be it employee pushback or
any type of litigious risk orrepu brand reputational risk.
That is really what humanresources at the corporate level
is for Now, that doesn't meanthat there aren't people who
(14:00):
operate in human resources, whoaren't authentic and genuine
about their care for employees,but if you were to ask like the
CEO and the COO, what the HumanResources Office is for, it's
meant to make sure that the shipdon't leak too bad.
That's the goal.
So for me though.
(14:22):
I am passionate about advocacy.
I'm passionate about systemsreimagining.
I'm passionate about orgtransformation.
And so what happened for me wasI started as an HR manager at
Target, but then I continuedforward and position and pivoted
out of, retail and out and theninto like a human HR business
(14:46):
partner role within energy andpharmaceutical.
But I eventually got intoconsulting.
Right.
So I started at Accenture, thenI went to Capgemini, then I went
to PricewaterhouseCoopers.
And so it was during thatseason, that consultative season
where I'm I'm ex I'm, I'mexternal, and I'm client facing.
And I'm talking to all thesedifferent businesses, these
(15:06):
different business owners andunit unit leaders and chief
Kenny (15:10):
Uh,
Zach (15:10):
and chief decision makers that I'm realizing Okay, so this
is how.
Because I was able to kind ofsit on the outside of it and
like really kind of step outsideof the, of the, of the, of, the
machine.
Even though, again, I'm, I'mworking for a consulting firm,
but again, I'm looking at itjust much more like a shark.
(15:30):
I'm not really looking at itwith all the emotion.
and personal personalityattached to it.
'cause I'm looking at the entireenterprise.
And So that helps me understand,okay, here's the real for here's
the real function and purpose ofthis space.
And so as time went on, like Isaid, I'm like, okay.
Well, where does all, all thesethings, the things that I'm
really passionate about, theycan exist and people try to
practice them internally, butthey are ultimately at odds with
(15:56):
Like, the core penultimatefunction of human resources.
Kenny (16:00):
mm-hmm.
Zach (16:00):
And so for me, living Corporate came about and the
podcast came about because Isaid, you know what?
We're real talk in the corporateworld, meaning.
We're gonna have conversationsoutside of, the gaze of
corporate hr.
we're gonna name harm
Kenny (16:13):
car,
Zach (16:13):
and we're gonna name parties.
Without having, to apologize,without having to look over our
shoulder or double.
check that we can say it.
You know, when We have a po,when Living Corporate Drops a,
podcast, I'm not sending it.
Kenny (16:28):
it
Zach (16:29):
to, the chief people officer or our legal or a legal.
team to edit it to make surethat no one's offended or that
we don't violate X, Y, and Z.
We're having.
a real conversation
Kenny (16:41):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (16:41):
that That degree of authenticity and lack of.
apology for any one person orparty or group is appealing to
brands.
Because brands do want to beable to have the conversations.
They recognize that there'sinternal red tape and frankly,
(17:03):
even just some from a brandperspective, like they know
they're not Gonna be.
heard and seen as authentic asauthentically as they would as
like a living corporate wouldbecause we're an outside entity
coming in to talk
Kenny (17:16):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (17:17):
opposed to them.
As opposed to them trying tohave a fireside chat where it's
really just gonna be a bunch ofback pat and self-congratulatory
nonsense.
You know what I mean?
Kenny (17:26):
That is, uh.
I'm glad you, you touched onthe, oftentimes the, the imagery
of HR is rather Sinister, right?
Like, it's like, hey, like.
HR is there to support thebusiness, right.
But I think there is always thatpeople element, like you said,
like at the heart of a business,right?
(17:48):
There should be, there'sprobably some amazing people
adding value for the businessand why not have a honest
dialogue with them?
can imagine for a lot ofexecutives to, when you get to a
certain scale.
They can also, they can kind ofdeem some of those conversations
as not worth having it becausethere's so much downside risk.
(18:12):
And they themselves saying itversus having another party such
as yourself come in kind of, notmediate, but like, you know,
like open the sandbox up.
Like let everybody have anopportunity to stand on the
soapbox in their own way and saywhat they want to say.
so that, that, that's reallycool that you found that niche
and.
(18:33):
necessarily see a lot of people,um, putting the time and the
energy into their HR function,in-house, or why not work with a
strategic partner like Zacharyin that case?
I love that.
Zach (18:44):
Well, no, I mean, and here's the thing, right?
We're all, because we're coming,and this is also just the
benefit of just hiring acontractor, consultant,
fractional person, whatever.
You're not having to worry aboutmanaging my emotions or like.
You know, getting me to believein the bigger picture.
I'm coming in to do a job andI'm here to make sure that
(19:08):
you're successful.
I'm here to support, I'm here togive, I'm here to drive impact
for you as best as po, best as Ican.
And then when this contract isup, we can either renew the
contract or we don't.
And that's okay.
Right.
I think like there's a benefitto that and I think especially
in this market where folkscontinue to cut and head count,
full FTEs are very expensive.
(19:30):
There's a, there's an economiclever to it as well, right?
We're, we're gonna come in, youdon't have to onboard us the
same way that you would an FTE.
We're gonna come in and we'regonna provide the solution or
product or service that.
we've agreed to that we're gonnago, right?
And like, so example, like we dobrand storytelling.
We do, we have an e-learningplatform and we have data
(19:53):
transformation and analytics,right?
And so.
If you were to come in, if, ifwe're gonna come in, you don't
need to talk to us aboutwhatever, because we already
have, we're coming in with theexpertise and our delivery time
is pretty sharp when ouranalytics solutions can't even
talking about, you know, we'redelivering you insight from, you
know, you ingesting your data,your HRS data, or your customer
(20:15):
experience data, or your surveysentiment data.
Your salary data or all data
Kenny (20:19):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (20:19):
we're giving you, we're giving you analytics and
analytical dashboards andconsulting like in a, in a two
week.
Turnaround,
Kenny (20:26):
That's incredible.
Zach (20:28):
right.
We talking about brandstorytelling, like, you know, we
are the ones standing up all thecontent for you, right?
I think about the, the, thecampaigns that we have, we've
had in the past with Amazon andPfizer.
I think about the campaignsright now that we're in the
middle of with, with Intuit,right?
Like we're, we're to endsupport.
You don't have to worry abouthaving to look over our
shoulder.
I'm gonna give you the projectplan.
We're gonna align on it, andwe're gonna execute.
Kenny (20:51):
I like that.
So there, there's something thatI've been wondering lately, for
a lot of jobs, that I've appliedfor say, over the last five
years I've noticed something.
Zach (21:04):
Hmm.
Kenny (21:05):
The applications are getting longer and longer, and
maybe this may be off on atangent, Zachary, but just, just
stay, stick with me.
A lot of the
Zach (21:13):
I'm here.
Kenny (21:15):
That they collect on these applications isn't
necessarily for the job itself.
It's some of the, I don't wannasay the back officey stuff, but
the stuff where it's like, race,a what do you recognize yourself
as?
Maybe gender, military, of thosetypes of questions.
Right.
(21:35):
What are companies doing?
Like you mentioned analytics,right?
And so that was, that was reallykey, key to me.
Like what are companies able todo with some of this data that
they may not necessarily bedoing now once they partner with
you?
Zach (21:48):
Yeah.
So, you know, here's the thing.
Every company has some sort of,data arm, right?
Where they have a dashboard orsomething.
Every HR team has a dashboard.
so it's not a question of ifthey're doing nothing with.
I'm gonna say at least like 70%of their data, they typically
(22:11):
have some type of platform thatthey're using that gives them
some type of visualization thatthey're, they're able to look at
and and use.
What we continue to notice thatlive in corporate though, is
that the digestibility of thosevisualizations is all over the
(22:32):
place, right.
So like, I think because when itcomes to data visualization, a
lot of times it's datascientists putting these things
together.
But it takes, it's more, it's a,it's a, there's a delicate
balance between org strategy anddata science to make effective
visualizations.
(22:53):
you have to really?
Understand The nature of workand understand like your
audience.
To build something that peoplecan actually use.
Having a bunch of bar graphs andcharts and lines and stickers
and numbers everywhere.
Like, yeah, it looks really busyand it looks very informative,
(23:13):
but what are you actually doingwith that?
So that's the first thing issome of these reports are very,
they're very busy, but they'renot actually very insightful.
they look busy though.
They look, uh.
Smart, but if you can't reallyaction on them, then what is it
(23:34):
really for?
The other, the other piece isthat organizations often are,
like, they have a, they mighthave a bunch of, they have a
bunch of data and they'repulling the data, but they're
not connecting the dots betweentheir DA data sets, so.
they may have their sentimentdata in one place.
(23:54):
Their payroll data.
Another place their headcountdata, another place their, their
Performance data, in anotherplace, their benefits elections
in another place, their app,their hiring and recruiting data
in another place.
and then they also might havetheir, their compliance.
Kenny (24:14):
Clients,
Zach (24:16):
and, and complaint hotline data.
in another place.
And there's nothing wrong withhaving that data in a bunch of
different places.
That's the nature of justtechnology.
Like, and like, yes, Workday anda DP, some of these places can
sell you on having everything inone consolidated place.
That's fine.
The, the, the, the labor and thedifferentiator for us is we are
(24:36):
passionate about stitching allof it together.
So What does.
Your Gen X black engineer who isa woman and a caretaker, on
your, on the, on, on the WestCoast, How, what is their,
(24:59):
level?
what is that group's level oftrust compared to white baby
boomer executives on the Eastcoast?
Who are not caretakers, right?
So it's like that the ability?
to connect everything togetherand see what that person's or
group's experience might be interms of how long it takes for
'em to get promoted, how long,what their average performance
rating is, what kind of benefitsdo they typically elect and why,
(25:23):
what their, again, what theirtrust or sentiment is of their
leadership and organization.
But you can't really get acomplete picture of any employee
if you're not connecting allthe, all the data together.
And the last thing I'll sayabout the, about it is, is that.
That's one thing a lot of, A lotof times when it comes to data,
at best, people are looking atwhere they're at, right?
now, but Most people are lookingat where they, where they, where
(25:45):
they've been.
So they're looking at historicaldata.
You're looking, at old data.
You might be looking.
at data from last quarter orlast year, The future of this
space.
And when you, when you talkabout like really driving for
impact is being able to buildout predictive analytics so you
can understand what's coming.
And so living corporate we dothat work a lot, right, we're
(26:09):
able to take in your historicaldata and then get, leverage.
that to build out predictivemodels and then connect that to
a return on investment, right?
So, Hey, here's the turnover.
of this particular group.
Here's what it has been based ontrends and a variety of factors
right?
Basically just I guess thecalculations we build and the.
(26:30):
Formulas we build, Here's whereit's gonna be going.
If you pull this lever, maybeturnover goes down If you pull
this other lever.
turnover may go up.
And also, here's the cost.
to your enterprise.
Because of that decision.
Here's the cost If you are, ifyou do nothing, here's the cost.
If you do B, here's the cost.
if you do see.
(26:52):
And so like that level ofinsight helps organizations make
better decisions.
and at least helps them make andalso can accelerate decisions
because it's not a bunch ofpeople kind of licking their
fingers, sticking in the air orarguing anecdotally about what
has always.
worked versus what won't work.
(27:14):
We're being informed by thedata.
Kenny (27:18):
I like that.
data storytelling.
It seems like that's gonna be askill that you just touched on,
but I think that's definitelyfor those that are like tapping
into new wave of like analyticsand ai, like that's an area
where, to your point, Zachary,like you're, I appreciate you
(27:40):
telling that story.
Some people aren't the best attelling that or having that.
They don't have that ability totell the story.
And so they're gonna be willingto connect with somebody who is
strong and leverages that as asuperpower.
So.
As you were just talking aboutthat whole scenario, like you
really painted a full picture,like if I can think of this as
(28:01):
like the movie, the HR movie,right?
In terms of the data coming in,maybe there's a problem and then
you come in and you provide thatsolution to your customer or
your client who's the maincharacter.
Talk a little bit about pricingjust real fast.
Not, you don't have to getspecific, but how do you, how do
you price
Zach (28:19):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (28:20):
like this that sounds rather nuanced and complex for.
An executive or somebody whoreally, really needs to make a
decision on this rather quickly,and they don't, they may not
care about the, the ins and outsof it, the nuts and bolts, or
they
Zach (28:36):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (28:36):
talk.
a little bit about how youprice, what living, corporate,
offers to the world.
Zach (28:41):
Yeah.
I love.
contextualizing it in terms oflike a team.
So if you were to go out andhire.
analytics team for yourenterprise.
You're probably gonna spend,let's say you, let's say let's,
let's say you hire three people.
Let's say you hire like a seniordata scientist, A junior
(29:01):
analyst, and like one morejunior analyst, right?
Let's say you have a small team,you're probably gonna st on the
low end, probably still spendabout$500,000.
Kenny (29:09):
Yeah.
Easy.
Zach (29:10):
Right.
Like that's not just salary,that's total comp.
And I feel like I'm being reallyconservative when I say$500,000.
So for us, we like to say, Heylook, we're a fraction of that
over a year, right?
we love coming in and like beingthat partner over a set period
of time because we want to beable to stand up some solutions
(29:34):
and be an ongoing point ofsupport.
And that really is how weoperate.
and it's been successful so farwhen we've contextualized it
that way, right?
So if I come to you and we put$150,000 price tag on something
and it's analytics over thecourse of a year, and here's all
(29:56):
the pieces you're going to get,and here's what you're saving.
Because if you went out andhired a, just if you hired a
single data scientist.
You're gonna spend at least$80,000 in salary, like, let
alone benefits, right?
If you were to hire a seniordata scientist who, like is
coming in, who has experience inworking with various
(30:19):
visualization tools, whounderstands Python, who's gonna,
who has experience, and andunderstanding people data and
other types of data sets, that'sgonna be expensive.
And so we like to, we alwayslike to see, we always like to
position ourselves as afractional.
Partner to organizations who arelooking to accelerate in, to,
(30:41):
accelerate themselves toinsight.
Kenny (30:44):
That fractional word.
I've been seeing a lot more ofthat, lately.
and I, I appreciate you breakingit down that way because first
glance, somebody could say, Hey.
You're selling it for cheaper,but not necessarily because like
you said, there is a, a cheapercomponent, but you're doing
things in, in a much moreefficient way and then you're,
Zach (31:06):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (31:07):
like the, the cost of benefits and some of the other
things that come with makingsomebody full-time that factor
in as
Zach (31:13):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (31:14):
of just that base price that we, that we all think in
terms of the way that we paypeople.
I like that
Zach (31:20):
100 per 100%, man.
Kenny (31:23):
Yeah.
No, I, I always ask folks, I'm,I've been asking more and more
folks lately around the, the,the way that stuff is priced,
products and services and yourbusiness is an example of that.
When we're, we're.
on a B2B marketplace.
Um, I certainly think that we,we have some opportunities for
(31:44):
more folks, specifically blackfounders, to go in that space.
And the, the point to which youjust explained is a perfect
example of that, where there'sso much value to unlock.
Once you figure out the need forthat business.
Businesses have to do some ofthese core functional.
Like domain areas, like theyhave to have HR expertise in
some form or fashion, right?
(32:06):
And so they can go out and theycan kind of build out a, a
function internally.
Right.
and waste a lot of resources.
Or they can be, uh, much moreprecise, like Swiss Army knife,
right?
So have somebody come in like aZ right, and really get to the
pain point in an effective way,for whatever duration of time.
(32:27):
But then that value is unlockedfor them.
and a lot of times they'rewilling to spend that.
They're, they, they're gonnaspend that money regardless.
Why not spend it a little bitmore effectively?
B2B is the, I I I, I've beenpreaching this for like the last
year or so.
I really want to see more blackfounders get into the B2B space.
I think it, the,
Zach (32:45):
Yeah, man.
Kenny (32:46):
it's in our face, right?
Like every single day
Zach (32:49):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (32:49):
a way to sell a, a product to the consumer
audience.
But the bag is what?
B2B, that's just my, that's just
Zach (32:57):
Man,
Kenny (32:57):
moment, Zach.
Zach (32:58):
man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump up there with you because
like, well, here's the thing,Like I think, so a couple, a
couple things for me.
Because I spent so much of mycareer in consulting, and
frankly, I have like a fairlyconsultative approach just in
how I think about work.
So even before I worked atAccenture, was my fir the first
firm, my, my first stop in myconsulting journey, I was a HR
(33:23):
business partner, right?
And so tho and really a, aneffective HR business partner
operates consultatively.
They use Socratic, reasoning andmethods to help people.
Like, get to a place.
They, they ask a lot ofquestions.
they provide a ve a variety ofrecommendations.
They, they, they, they influencewithout authority.
(33:46):
Like, you know, that's what aeffective, any business partner,
certain, let alone an HRbusiness partner does well.
And so when I think about, Ithink about business and I think
about like where I see the mostimpact.
I do think about selling toother businesses.
I also struggle as a blackfounder, a black entrepreneur, a
black CEO, selling toindividuals.
(34:10):
When I can look at the, themarket and see that buyer, like
the buyer is having a reallyhard time, the individual
consumer's having a really hardtime right now, right?
Like everything's getting moreexpensive.
Right, like and I struggle'causeand PE and I mean people have
pop, like they've told me, Zach,why don't you charge people for
this or charge people for that?
(34:32):
Like, you know, sell the andsell it.
And then we have a Patreon thatwe do not update.
I need to update it.
I definitely would love peopleto support the Patreon.
At the same time I got thesetwins, I got two other kids, I
got a bunch of stuff going on.
I am not prioritized the Patonas I should, but I'm open to
people supporting.
Supporting, right.
If they want to support andgive.
They can, for extra content orbonus material or early mat,
(34:55):
early content, that's fine.
But like I struggle to sell toa, a group of people that they
need help, right?
likeI'm not gonna sell a webinarto a bunch of black and brown
people or other, or queer peopleon how to navigate the world of
work.
I should just tell you that,like, that's my own personal,
(35:17):
that's my personal.
Like ethics though, right?
Everybody is different, right?
And there's whole businessesbuilt on selling people
liberation and like that istheir choice.
I'm not gonna shame that.
I'm not gonna attack that.
I, just am not gonna emulatethat.
what I would much rather, do,and.
God has blessed me so far inthis is.
(35:40):
I'd much rather give away thepodcast for free.
Our access to our, archive onour website,
living-corporate.com.
Please say the dash, you can,you can go there.
If you make an account, you cansee our whole library, right?
Not gonna charge you a thing.
Now, I am gonna ask forinformation so you can build,
you have to build a profile, butit's free though, right?
(36:00):
I'd much rather.
do that and then charge Amazon.
Charge Pfizer charge.
UNICEF charge Intuit.
I'd rather charge theseinstitutions, not only that, who
can not only, afford it, butare.
looking for black-ownedbusinesses to say that they
support.
You know what I'm saying?
And so I'm always gonna be aproponent of B2B.
(36:23):
And as I think about the futureof work, the future of work is
not, really gonna be, it's likeI don't think that, that the
worker who is like reallylooking to thrive.
yes, Look, you can have merchand you can have other, I'm not,
I'm not knocking that we havemerch, but merch is not in no
way.
I don't ever think about.
living corporate's merch site asa revenue, stream at living.
(36:45):
I just do not, right?
I'm like ultimately you're gonnaneed to figure out what
enterprise, solution you'redelivering and guess what?
You're scale like you can scalewith that in a much better way,
even when times are tough,right?
So down markets and during downmarkets.
You're doing B2B,
Kenny (37:05):
you,
Zach (37:06):
you may only need to close like two clients.
Kenny (37:09):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (37:10):
to be okay, but if you're a B2C Model and everybody's
getting crushed or squeezed bythe market, well guess what?
now you gotta go extra crazy.
Kenny (37:24):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (37:26):
To match your revenue.
Whereas before, let's say likeif in 2024 you signed a
multi-year contract withsomebody with a big company and
it was like, a hundred thousanddollars a year.
Well, guess what?
When the, when their tough yearcomes, you still at least got
revenue from it.
It's just a different way ofworking and thinking that I
(37:47):
believe is just much moresustainable.
Kenny (37:48):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (37:49):
in, it can Be intimidating.
It could Be intimidating.
But it's, I believe it's muchmore rewarding and I think it's
much.
more sustainable, especially inlike times like this where
companies are closing left andright.
Small business are gettingcrushed right now.
Kenny,
Kenny (38:06):
Speak on it.
Zach (38:09):
They getting crushed.
Kenny (38:10):
yeah, I completely agree.
for folks that may, see ourpodcast content and have any
inclination that I'm makingmoney off of this, the podcast
itself, like to Zachary's Pointis really giving away for free.
Like we've tried sponsorshipsand we've tried some different
things in the past.
wasn't as much a focus on themoney in those cases versus like
(38:34):
the network or there was like asynergy there in terms of what
we want to focus on in terms ofcontent.
And so I appreciate you sayingthat Zachary just like given
the, given the game away forfree, um.
At a certain level to kind ofenable, the consumer or the
individual to, you know, figurethings out in their own way.
(38:57):
then on the flip side of that,at that marketplace kind of
viewpoint, right?
Using those, some of those B2Brelationships to, to.
To, to really make a living andbecome whole again.
If I can say that from like arevenue perspective, I'm not mad
at that at all.
I'd appreciate if a big companycame along and threw the bag our
way for this podcast stuff.
(39:19):
but certainly I'm not lookingto, to nickel and dime my way,
to, you know, a point ofconsistent or.
A surplus of revenue, from, froma content perspective.
So I appreciate you throwingthat out there.
that is a good segue though,because I want to touch real
briefly on the content, itselfthat Living Corporate has.
(39:42):
I think I saw on the website youall have a thousand plus podcast
episodes.
so we're approaching a hundred.
I don't even know.
What I'll look like if I were toproduce a thousand pieces of,
podcast content, but that isneither here nor there.
Like, talk a bit a little bitabout your strategy from a
content perspective where it'snot just, you having your show,
(40:05):
right?
You're, you're bringing alongothers and it's really.
This network effect, that, that,that has been really cool to
kind of witness, you do that.
But talk a little bit about, youknow, what other content you
have on the platform besidesyour living corporate base
product.
And then like, you know, whatthis does for your business
overall.
(40:26):
Having this, having this muchcontent at your fingertips to,
to give to your audience.
Zach (40:32):
Yeah, so you know, first things first is we have.
Obviously to your point, wehave, we have myself, living
corporate real talk Tuesdays.
man, real talk Tuesdays.
We've been like in and aroundTuesday.
'cause Kenny, I, man, I'm gonnatell you, I'm telling y'all, I'm
telling you man, these newbornshave been whooping my behind,
but we still uploading and whenthat we're having really frank,
(40:56):
unapologetic, unfiltereddiscussions about, the world of
work at the intersection oflived experience.
And so we're gonna talk about.
Li honestly, everything wetalked about today between
employee experience, customerexperience, navigating, the
world of work as an ally, whatdoes it mean to like really be
inclusive, managing your own,wellness, and the whole scope of
(41:16):
wellness?
What does that mean?
different types of research.
So we're gonna interviewacademics, advisors, elected
officials, influencers, authors,entrepreneurs, civil servants.
The list goes on.
But that's not the only show toyour point on the Living
Corporate Network.
We also have, we, we also have ashow called Your Turn, which is
really aimed to be, aimed at,gen Zers and very, very young
(41:40):
millennials.
And that's really hosted by mysiblings who are a band, called
None Above.
And so they do a really good jobjust talking about.
The business of music.
'cause they're,'cause they're aband.
So they talk about the world ofmusic and they talk about
navigating the music world asyoung black professionals, young
black artists.
we have a show called, we Ain'tDying for This, hosted by
Crystal Johnson, who is a and aDEI, HR executive.
(42:04):
Is, but she's talking aboutblack women and liberation and
identity.
And then we have a bunch ofother, like limited series that
we've, that have been on livingcorporate, so right, so they're
not in perpetuity livingcorporate proper.
real talk Tuesdays and the bonusshows that come from me are the
only things that'll go on thatwill never stop.
Right?
There's never an off season forliving c.
(42:25):
flagship, but We, have, we've.
had a bunch of other shows overthe years.
Right.
I'm thinking about the fact thatLiving Corporate started in
2018.
Right.
So we've had a lot of differentshows.
We've, we've had the accesspoint, which is, which was built
on, supporting and advocatingfor a.
aspiring professionals, people,kid, younger people coming out
(42:45):
of college.
we've had, we've had the tap inwith Tristan, tap in with
Tristan was All about resumewriting and getting a job and
like navigating the world ofLinkedIn.
you know, we've had, we've had,liberated Love notes, which is
about black women and identityand and healing and growth,
right?
So we've had all sorts.
(43:05):
of, limited series, right?
If you're talking about.
20, 30, 60 episodes.
and to, to your, to yourquestion about how does it fill,
fill into our larger contentstrategy.
One, we wanna be able to be aresource for folks.
So when you go on our websiteand you type in something where
(43:26):
you look for something, we wannabe able to be a thought leader.
And so we're passionate aboutcreating content that's
engaging.
And then on top of that, thecontent, though our podcast.
After a while, Kenny, I had toask myself, okay, what is the
lifespan of a pod episode,right?
If you drop a pod on a Monday,What is the value of that pod?
(43:49):
Two Mondays later,
Kenny (43:51):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (43:52):
Right?
and the answer for most peopleis not that much.
Like, you know, you chew the gyou spit it out, you pick
another piece of g right?
And That's not a, that's not aslight, on.
That particular pod.
I mean like Bruce Springsteen Iwanna say.
And Barack Obama had.
a podcast.
Do You go back and listen tothem podcast episodes?
(44:13):
No.
Some of y'all don't even knowpeople listening, don't even
know they had a pod.
You know what I'm saying?
Kenny (44:17):
saying?
Zach (44:17):
So what do you do though?
with all the ip, the thoughtleadership that you've created
over time?
What do you do?
So for us, what we decided todo.
We decided to take all of the,we decided to take all the
transcripts of all of ourpodcasts and we decided to build
(44:38):
an AI engine called InsightEngine and it, we fed the
transcripts into this engine andthen turned those transcripts
into e-learning modules.
And then we took those modulesand we put them on a custom.
Player like A a customenvironment, very similar to
(45:00):
like Spotify, but Spotify, butfor employee experience and
inclusive leadership.
And we sell that as a B2Bsubscription
Kenny (45:12):
subscription.
Zach (45:13):
to companies looking to drive engagement and drive
learning and training.
Kenny (45:18):
I wish I
Zach (45:19):
So
Kenny (45:20):
cache.
I wish I had a cache button.
'cause that is like a money,that's a gem right there.
like you dropping gems orsomething like that.
A sound.
'cause that was amazing.
But keep going Zach.
I just got excited and I don'tknow if you could tell my eyes
got big as you were talking.
but that excited me what youjust said and then you explained
(45:41):
and I hope people are listening,to that little nugget because
I'll be clipping that up forsure.
Zach (45:48):
No, no.
I was trying to find, hold on.
I was trying to find.
Just trying to, I got my littlesoundboard thing right here, so
I was just trying to find.
Kenny (45:55):
Yeah, that's a good one.
The flex bomb.
Yes.
Yes.
Play it it play it.
Please.
Because what you just said, Idon't think, don't think, people
really understand the context ofthat.
If you have a thousand, Play it.
Go.
Thank, thank, thank you, sir.
Yes.
Play it again.
And play it.
Play it one more time if youwant.
Because that sounded like moneybeing dropped gems, but man,
(46:16):
having a thousand transcripts.
And then dropping it into theai.
Now that's something informed,right?
Like you, to your point, as youwere explaining, it was like
it's gonna give you somethingthat is really tailored to
Zachary's been talking aboutsince 2018, right?
Like that's powerful in and ofitself, having that, and then
you turn around and charge forit.
(46:38):
Oh my gosh.
Zach (46:41):
And so and so look, man, it's a great tool because, and
I, man, I just wanna say.
I wanna say, man, shout out toAmplify Credit Union.
amplify Credit Union.
I'm an excellent partner.
and Angela?
(47:03):
Angela and the whole team overthere.
Ashley Cunningham.
you know, I just wanted AngelaShaw to be clear, Ashley
Cunningham, but really liketheir willingness to be like.
An early partner, an earlyclient, for the tool and like
it's so dope seeing, seeingthem.
We have some other clients aswell who like will make a
(47:26):
playlist.
'cause what you do is, so thinkabout it like this.
Think about like Spotify.
You go on Spotify, you are like,I need to make a playlist for my
cousin graduation party.
Or I need to make a playlist formy baby's eighth birthday party.
So you're gonna go on Spotify oryou're gonna type in some songs,
right?
There's all types of songs.
(47:46):
You choose what you want, youtake that playlist, and then you
can then send it out to people.
You send it, you can send it toyour partner, who's then gonna
stream, who's gonna play it onthe Bluetooth speaker, or you
send it to whomever.
Right?
So it's really the same idea.
In this platform, it's reallyabout, you can make a playlist.
(48:08):
on like, let's say HispanicHeritage Month.
And because we've been talkingto so many people over the
years, there's gonna be moduleson supporting Latinx identity.
Why the term Latinx?
Why does every, does everyoneagree on Latinx, right?
Like, what does it mean to be anally?
Like what does it mean?
Like we have tons of contentlike that.
(48:30):
Are you on Women's HistoryMonth?
Supporting women in theworkplace, why women are
effective leaders.
Why this, why that, right?
Like, but there's a treasuretrove of content from all the
discussions we've had over theyears.
And so then what you are able todo then is you can build out
playlists and then share them toyour organization's intranet to
(48:53):
their environment.
So the reason I wanna shout outAmplify is because I love the
way that they.
They're like, Hey, look, we gotour, we got our cultural
calendar and we have the thingsthat we wanna highlight, and
we're gonna leverage thisplatform.
We're gonna build playlists, andevery month we're gonna release
(49:15):
a different playlist tohighlight different topics.
And so and so.
Not, it's not a pure LMS, right?
So when you click that module,you're gonna get the Audio or
video file or.
both.
You're gonna get a summary ofwhat that conversation's about.
You're gonna get discussionquestions, and you're gonna get
(49:36):
action items.
And the reason why I did notwant to try to build a Skillsoft
or a Udemy is because I'm notlooking to replace a pure LMS.
I'm looking to be that solution.
As brands divest from full scaleDEI teams and spending$30,000 on
(49:59):
DEI speakers that this can be anongoing resource that is caught,
that is economically feasiblefor them, and could be something
that supplements and sitsalongside a pure LMS.
Kenny (50:14):
Bars.
I'm not, I, I don't even need tosay nothing else.
I, I, I.
Just folks listen in, to what hejust said.
you held that until the end.
So I'm glad because that's theclippable moment For sure.
Or one of the many.
but just seeing, hearing you saythat just now, I got a little, I
got a little too excited, I justwanna say, thank you for being
(50:39):
on as a guest.
Like seriously, Zachary, thisis, I learned from the first
second you started talking untilthe end and it only got better
and better.
There was like a amazing ramp upto, to you closing us out with
that.
speaking of close.
I definitely wanna pass it toyou.
Let folks know how they can tapin with the brand.
(51:00):
I think you, you mentioned theURL earlier, but I wanna make
sure we get that right at theend so folks know where to tap
in.
Zach (51:08):
For sure.
Look, man, it's living Dashcorporate, please say the
dash.com.
But if you just Google LivingCorporate, we will pop up.
I'll Kenny, I'll give you myLinkedIn on, so that way I'm
Zachary nun.
Zach nun, look me up.
There's really only two Zacknuns.
All right.
There's this Zack nun andthere's some like Republican
(51:29):
MAGA dude from Iowa.
Like I'm obviously not that Zacknun, but I'm gonna put, I'm
gonna give Kenny theinformation.
Y'all click the links in theshow notes, but again, it's
Living Corporate, Google LivingCorporate.
We will pop up if you wanna goto a URL living corporate.com or
you could do livingcorporate.co, living
corporate.net, livingcorporate.us living
(51:50):
corporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, living
corporate.ai.
If you, you can do like weeverywhere, just search live in.
corporate and we gonna pop up.
Kenny (51:59):
I like that.
so, lasting thought.
What do you want as the lastingthought for our listeners who,
chime, chimed in, listen todayto this conversation?
Like what do you want them totake away and remember, from
this amazing conversation thatwe had?
Zach (52:17):
So my assumption is that the majority of your listeners
are like individuals like blackand brown, probably Working
people, right?
They're not necessarily likeexecutive buyers.
Kenny (52:28):
Yeah, working business owners.
But you hit it, right, Dan Nailright on the head.
Black and brown for sure.
Zach (52:35):
Cool.
So I.
think the takeaway I just want,I want people to hear is that
like you're enough, you are notyour productivity, you're not
your brand, you're not yourrevenue.
You're enough by yourself, andyou don't have to be defined by
those things, even thoughcapitalism demands that we are.
I think the other thing I wannasay is that.
(52:55):
You can't outperform whitesupremacy.
So seek to be yourself everyday.
Seek to be more authentic toyour own principles and goals
every day, and allow those goalsto be things that are not driven
by what some white folks toldyou.
Allow those goals to besomething that are driven by
what your spirit tells you andhonor that, and I promise you,
(53:19):
as someone who's on that journeywith you every day gets a bit
more liberating.
Kenny (53:25):
Appreciate it, Zach.
Thanks for tuning into anothergreat episode of The Beyond
Normal Podcast folks.
Welcome, welcome to another great episode of The
Beyond Normal Podcast.
I am your host, Kenny Groom.
As you know, our little motto orour saying is, every founder
story is a journey worthexploring.
we have a founder here with ustoday by the name of Zachary
Nunn.
he is the, I'm not sure you goby founder, right?
(00:58):
You're.
You go by a different title, yougo by Chief Executive Officer.
I had to make sure that I gotthat, that that note.
Correct.
He's the Chief Executive Officerof Living Corporate.
They are an experiencemanagement, company.
They focus on prioritizingworkplace fairness.
In addition to that, he's also.
got an amazing content engine,if I can call it that, behind
(01:21):
Living Corporate, where they putout some amazing, video-based
conversations, podcasts, if youwill.
And so this is right up my,angle in terms of talking to a
fellow podcaster.
So without further ado, let'sbring Zachary to the stage.
How's it going, Zachary?
Zach (01:36):
Hey, it is going well.
Thank you for having me,brother.
Kenny (01:39):
I'm so excited to, dive into, the, the conversation
today with you, as we both havebeen on this content journey.
I have definitely.
I think at first I was admiringyour content strategy from afar
and as we've connected over the,say the last year or so, it's
been really exciting to see, yougrow with your, you're building
(02:01):
that live in corporate.
So let's start out.
From the beginning,
Zach (02:05):
Yeah.
Kenny (02:06):
you were actually, you took that leap of faith and,
became the CEO of LivingCorporate.
What were you doing with yourlife?
Zach (02:14):
Yeah, man.
great question.
Shoot.
I was just, I mean, I'm, I feellike I still am, man, I was just
outside trying to figure it out,right?
Like, you know, I, you know, I'mthinking about, I graduated from
the University of Houston backin 2011, and I started my career
in human resources at Target.
And I just remember being one ofthe onlys in any space, six to 2
(02:39):
85, big dude, right?
Trying to just navigate theworld of work, and in majority
white spaces and dealing withthe micro macroaggressions of
work and being one of the onlyin any space I, any room I walk
in.
I think over time I realized I,and I kept on looking for the
(03:03):
solution and like you might aska question like, what do you
mean?
Like, what do you mean bysolution?
Like, what is the solution forthe, for the people on the
margins?
Like where do they go foraffirmation and where do they go
for real authentic support?
Where do they go for advocacy?
Where do they go for unfilteredguidance?
(03:23):
And I kept looking for thosesolutions.
In the context of my jobs.
So I'd go to the employeeresource groups, I would go to
Human resources.
I would try to stand up thingsinternally.
I would go to older mentors,potential mentors or people that
looked like me who had been inposition longer.
and you know, I would havevarying degrees of success, but
(03:44):
that was me before LivingCorporate.
It was, hey, young, new,professional, large black dude,
just trying to navigate theworld to work and figure out.
Where I fit and how I can, youknow, finish every day without
being so utterly drained orfeeling like I failed in some
way, which is a really commonexperience for those on the
(04:06):
margins.
Kenny (04:08):
As you were talking and you said something at the
beginning, you said 2011Houston.
In my mind, what instantlypopped up was what a time to be
alive.
I'm not sure how Houston was atthat time.
As somebody who has justrecently, visited Houston the
last couple years, I can
Zach (04:26):
Yeah.
Kenny (04:26):
it was an exciting place to be that time.
But like you're saying, from acorporate perspective.
there was some juxtapositionthere, right?
Where it wasn't the, what I canimagine Houston is on a day to
day, right, going out and, youknow, experiencing the city
versus living that corporatelife like you, like you were
(04:48):
talking about.
Zach (04:49):
Yeah, I mean, so it's interesting, right?
Like 2011, obviouslyeconomically we were like in a
different place.
also you think about like, Ithink, and especially I think
about.
like 2011, 2012,'cause that'sreally when those were really
critical years for me.
I graduated 2011.
I started working in June of2011.
but then I remember I bought myfirst home in 20.
(05:16):
Was it 2012?
Kenny (05:18):
Wow.
Zach (05:19):
20 12, 20 13.
But, but, but I just rememberthat season, like it was
different, right?
Like, I mean, I was just talkingto my wife about this, right?
So like for context, you know,our first home.
Our first home, we bought ourfirst home and it was a two
bedroom, no, three bedroom, twobath, and we, we bought it well
(05:41):
under six figures and like therewere several of those homes in
Houston at the time.
You know, 1 35, 80 5,000, ahundred, like a little over a
hundred thousand dollars to getyou a nice home.
Some like a hundred thousand,$120,000.
Get you a nice two, two storyhouse in Houston in certain
parts of Houston.
(06:01):
Right?
And so the landscape wascompletely different.
Work was different.
the idea of just like the, theidea of like, yes, yes, I came
into work looking for these verylike, affirming experiences, but
the job market was different,right?
Like you didn't have to haveyour own brand.
The concept of having a brandand working for someone was kind
(06:21):
of new.
That was kind of niche.
Everybody didn't have 30,000followers on Twitter, and
didn't, and had like fourdifferent side hustles and also
had a nine to five job.
Right.
Like, so it was a different timeand then, Yeah.
like to your illusion, like whata time to be alive.
I mean, also.
Like, musically, like theculturally I would say like the
space and the spot was differentbecause, because I think the
(06:44):
economics were different.
People were outside more andthey were outside differently.
Whereas to whereas now I thinkHouston is still, obviously It's
Houston is Houston, but it's notpopping in the same way, in my
opinion, that it was shoot,what, 15, 12.
to 15 years ago.
Kenny (07:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and that is a good pointbecause when I went to Houston
this time, I was actuallysurprised at the scale I.
Zach (07:13):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (07:14):
Houston, it has grown to, and I think when you, when in
some of the cities we've ex wewe've seen like when they grow
to a certain point, then likeculturally, there may be
something that's missing, right?
Like, or it, it morphs intosomething else.
Like we're going through thathere.
Folks know that my local marketis Charlotte, North Carolina,
(07:34):
where the city has grown to thepoint where there's now more
people who are not from here.
than people who are actuallyborn and raised here.
And so that brings a differentdynamic.
And from a cultural perspective,that definitely changes things,
I'll tell you.
All right.
Now, one of the things that'schanged since I've been in
Charlotte is the food.
(07:54):
the food is not as seasoned.
say that as it was when I firstcame to the city.
Believe it or not,
Zach (08:03):
No, I'm, I, no, I, no, it's, it's interesting, right?
Like I think the landscape, thel the landscape of food is cha
like, man, it's so interesting.
I think, especially with COVID,right?
Like there was, man, my wife andI just talked about this last
week.
Like there was so many spots inHouston that I loved, man, that
COVID, that pandemic man.
(08:25):
They just got rid of them spots.
Like a lot of those restaurantsjust aren't there.
Kenny (08:32):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (08:32):
then to your point about like, where we're at from like,
to likeI think some of it alsohas to do with just like the
lack, the the amount ofderegulation and just kinda
where we are, like from likeas alate stage capitalist society,
like you start seeingexperiences degrade while prices
increase, right.
So like when I talked to my mom,I asked her, I was likeHey, you
know, I'm curious, like you'veobviously been eating.
(08:56):
Your whole life, like, do youfeel like food has gotten worse?
She's like, yeah, food's gottenway worse.
She's like, you know, she'slike, so like some of the food,
like, you know, you might go tolike some southern, southern
style restaurant, right?
And get like the fried chickenand the.
greens and da da da.
She's like that kind of food.
She's like, we used to eat thatat lunch when I was in
elementary, middle school andhigh school.
She's like, because she's like,because them, those people was
(09:18):
cooking food from.
likethey likethis idea of evenlike being local only.
Like, that just wasn't the casewhen I was coming up because
obviously it was gonna be local.
We didn't have a bunch of frozenstuff coming in.
People was cooking the samestuff that you might eat from
so-and-so's house, you're gonnaeat at the school because that
lady works at the school.
Right.
(09:38):
and so she's like, she was justtalking to me about just how
experiences over time degrade.
Like even she was talking to meabout like JC Penney as an
example, like back in the day,JC Penney used to.
So, and tailor and fix yourclothes, but then as time goes
on, like that service don'tprovide, that's not anymore.
I remember, I remember, shoot, Ia smaller example when I was at,
(10:00):
when I used to go to Walmart,when I was a kid, Walmart would
fix your watch at the, at theWalmart.
But they outsource.
They outsource all that stuffnow.
Kenny (10:09):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (10:09):
I'm, and I'm only 35, right?
Like, so imagine if you 60 or 60plus and you looking around the
world, like how many things youjust see kind of degrade, have
degraded over time.
It's not the same, not the samequality, not the same
experience, but it's real, man.
It's real.
Kenny (10:26):
Yeah, for sure.
That's a lot of perspectivethere.
just thinking about likeyousaid, just being able to, the
shopping experience over theyears and food especially, just
something that's not the same aswhen my mom used to cook fried
chicken.
don't know what it is.
I'm sorry folks.
I had to go to fried chicken,but there's just something
(10:48):
nowadays when I taste somebodyelse's food, it ain't, it's not
the same experience.
And I think a big part of thatis like the, I don't know if
it's culture, but just the, likethe time that we were in,
everything culminated.
And when you had a meal and yousat down, and me and Zachary May
have broken bread like that,food tasted different.
Zach (11:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (11:14):
All right,
Zach (11:14):
It's true.
Kenny (11:15):
so let's, let's, let's pivot now, to your corporate
experience.
Let's, let's talk a little bitabout, so you spent, you, you
touched on this, briefly, right?
But you spent your corporatecareer in hr, That is not a path
that a lot of people.
Select, right.
(11:35):
In terms of, Hey, I'm gonna gointo HR rather
Zach (11:38):
Yeah.
Kenny (11:39):
career.
Like what did, like, what waswhat triggered you to go down
that path?
What did you see as anopportunity there?
Zach (11:48):
Yeah.
Look, I've always just beenpassionate about people.
and I like the idea of likebeing of service to folks and
supporting people and helpingthem grow and be successful.
I like, I, I believe that, Ibelieve then, and I still
believe now that people are thecenter of anything, any
organization.
It doesn't matter what it is.
If you don't have people,whether it's your people that
(12:11):
work for you or people that youneed to consume your product or
experience, you don't haveanything.
And so.
I believe that, and I stillbelieve that.
And so that's why to, for me,human resources was the closest
thing I could get to the people,and that's why I chose it.
Kenny (12:30):
Short and sweet.
I like that.
Now let, I wanna pivot.
'cause as you were just talking,a light bulb went off in my
head.
Now when you make the decisionin your head or you start to
think about, Hey, how do Icreate something of my own?
Zach (12:47):
Yep.
Kenny (12:47):
did see during your time as a hr, um.
HR executive, HR businesspartner.
Right.
as what did you see as, hey, thecompanies themselves don't
necessarily have thecapabilities or the solutions in
place to do this, but I can comein as a strategic partner and
(13:10):
fill this need.
Like what, what did you see thatthat helped you make that jump
to, starting your own business?
Zach (13:18):
You know, I, for me, I realized that human resources
and is really a functionultimately, like at its most
pessimistic human resources is arisk mitigation tool.
Or office for the comp for thecorporation.
They work for the company theywork for.
(13:40):
Human resources exist to serveat the pleasure of an executive
leadership to help tamp downrisk, be it employee pushback or
any type of litigious risk orrepu brand reputational risk.
That is really what humanresources at the corporate level
is for Now, that doesn't meanthat there aren't people who
(14:00):
operate in human resources, whoaren't authentic and genuine
about their care for employees,but if you were to ask like the
CEO and the COO, what the HumanResources Office is for, it's
meant to make sure that the shipdon't leak too bad.
That's the goal.
So for me though.
(14:22):
I am passionate about advocacy.
I'm passionate about systemsreimagining.
I'm passionate about orgtransformation.
And so what happened for me wasI started as an HR manager at
Target, but then I continuedforward and position and pivoted
out of, retail and out and theninto like a human HR business
(14:46):
partner role within energy andpharmaceutical.
But I eventually got intoconsulting.
Right.
So I started at Accenture, thenI went to Capgemini, then I went
to PricewaterhouseCoopers.
And so it was during thatseason, that consultative season
where I'm I'm ex I'm, I'mexternal, and I'm client facing.
And I'm talking to all thesedifferent businesses, these
(15:06):
different business owners andunit unit leaders and chief
Kenny (15:10):
Uh,
Zach (15:10):
and chief decision makers that I'm realizing Okay, so this
is how.
Because I was able to kind ofsit on the outside of it and
like really kind of step outsideof the, of the, of the, of, the
machine.
Even though, again, I'm, I'mworking for a consulting firm,
but again, I'm looking at itjust much more like a shark.
(15:30):
I'm not really looking at itwith all the emotion.
and personal personalityattached to it.
'cause I'm looking at the entireenterprise.
And So that helps me understand,okay, here's the real for here's
the real function and purpose ofthis space.
And so as time went on, like Isaid, I'm like, okay.
Well, where does all, all thesethings, the things that I'm
really passionate about, theycan exist and people try to
practice them internally, butthey are ultimately at odds with
(15:56):
Like, the core penultimatefunction of human resources.
Kenny (16:00):
mm-hmm.
Zach (16:00):
And so for me, living Corporate came about and the
podcast came about because Isaid, you know what?
We're real talk in the corporateworld, meaning.
We're gonna have conversationsoutside of, the gaze of
corporate hr.
we're gonna name harm
Kenny (16:13):
car,
Zach (16:13):
and we're gonna name parties.
Without having, to apologize,without having to look over our
shoulder or double.
check that we can say it.
You know, when We have a po,when Living Corporate Drops a,
podcast, I'm not sending it.
Kenny (16:28):
it
Zach (16:29):
to, the chief people officer or our legal or a legal.
team to edit it to make surethat no one's offended or that
we don't violate X, Y, and Z.
We're having.
a real conversation
Kenny (16:41):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (16:41):
that That degree of authenticity and lack of.
apology for any one person orparty or group is appealing to
brands.
Because brands do want to beable to have the conversations.
They recognize that there'sinternal red tape and frankly,
(17:03):
even just some from a brandperspective, like they know
they're not Gonna be.
heard and seen as authentic asauthentically as they would as
like a living corporate wouldbecause we're an outside entity
coming in to talk
Kenny (17:16):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (17:17):
opposed to them.
As opposed to them trying tohave a fireside chat where it's
really just gonna be a bunch ofback pat and self-congratulatory
nonsense.
You know what I mean?
Kenny (17:26):
That is, uh.
I'm glad you, you touched onthe, oftentimes the, the imagery
of HR is rather Sinister, right?
Like, it's like, hey, like.
HR is there to support thebusiness, right.
But I think there is always thatpeople element, like you said,
like at the heart of a business,right?
(17:48):
There should be, there'sprobably some amazing people
adding value for the businessand why not have a honest
dialogue with them?
can imagine for a lot ofexecutives to, when you get to a
certain scale.
They can also, they can kind ofdeem some of those conversations
as not worth having it becausethere's so much downside risk.
(18:12):
And they themselves saying itversus having another party such
as yourself come in kind of, notmediate, but like, you know,
like open the sandbox up.
Like let everybody have anopportunity to stand on the
soapbox in their own way and saywhat they want to say.
so that, that, that's reallycool that you found that niche
and.
(18:33):
necessarily see a lot of people,um, putting the time and the
energy into their HR function,in-house, or why not work with a
strategic partner like Zacharyin that case?
I love that.
Zach (18:44):
Well, no, I mean, and here's the thing, right?
We're all, because we're coming,and this is also just the
benefit of just hiring acontractor, consultant,
fractional person, whatever.
You're not having to worry aboutmanaging my emotions or like.
You know, getting me to believein the bigger picture.
I'm coming in to do a job andI'm here to make sure that
(19:08):
you're successful.
I'm here to support, I'm here togive, I'm here to drive impact
for you as best as po, best as Ican.
And then when this contract isup, we can either renew the
contract or we don't.
And that's okay.
Right.
I think like there's a benefitto that and I think especially
in this market where folkscontinue to cut and head count,
full FTEs are very expensive.
(19:30):
There's a, there's an economiclever to it as well, right?
We're, we're gonna come in, youdon't have to onboard us the
same way that you would an FTE.
We're gonna come in and we'regonna provide the solution or
product or service that.
we've agreed to that we're gonnago, right?
And like, so example, like we dobrand storytelling.
We do, we have an e-learningplatform and we have data
(19:53):
transformation and analytics,right?
And so.
If you were to come in, if, ifwe're gonna come in, you don't
need to talk to us aboutwhatever, because we already
have, we're coming in with theexpertise and our delivery time
is pretty sharp when ouranalytics solutions can't even
talking about, you know, we'redelivering you insight from, you
know, you ingesting your data,your HRS data, or your customer
(20:15):
experience data, or your surveysentiment data.
Your salary data or all data
Kenny (20:19):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (20:19):
we're giving you, we're giving you analytics and
analytical dashboards andconsulting like in a, in a two
week.
Turnaround,
Kenny (20:26):
That's incredible.
Zach (20:28):
right.
We talking about brandstorytelling, like, you know, we
are the ones standing up all thecontent for you, right?
I think about the, the, thecampaigns that we have, we've
had in the past with Amazon andPfizer.
I think about the campaignsright now that we're in the
middle of with, with Intuit,right?
Like we're, we're to endsupport.
You don't have to worry abouthaving to look over our
shoulder.
I'm gonna give you the projectplan.
We're gonna align on it, andwe're gonna execute.
Kenny (20:51):
I like that.
So there, there's something thatI've been wondering lately, for
a lot of jobs, that I've appliedfor say, over the last five
years I've noticed something.
Zach (21:04):
Hmm.
Kenny (21:05):
The applications are getting longer and longer, and
maybe this may be off on atangent, Zachary, but just, just
stay, stick with me.
A lot of the
Zach (21:13):
I'm here.
Kenny (21:15):
That they collect on these applications isn't
necessarily for the job itself.
It's some of the, I don't wannasay the back officey stuff, but
the stuff where it's like, race,a what do you recognize yourself
as?
Maybe gender, military, of thosetypes of questions.
Right.
(21:35):
What are companies doing?
Like you mentioned analytics,right?
And so that was, that was reallykey, key to me.
Like what are companies able todo with some of this data that
they may not necessarily bedoing now once they partner with
you?
Zach (21:48):
Yeah.
So, you know, here's the thing.
Every company has some sort of,data arm, right?
Where they have a dashboard orsomething.
Every HR team has a dashboard.
so it's not a question of ifthey're doing nothing with.
I'm gonna say at least like 70%of their data, they typically
(22:11):
have some type of platform thatthey're using that gives them
some type of visualization thatthey're, they're able to look at
and and use.
What we continue to notice thatlive in corporate though, is
that the digestibility of thosevisualizations is all over the
(22:32):
place, right.
So like, I think because when itcomes to data visualization, a
lot of times it's datascientists putting these things
together.
But it takes, it's more, it's a,it's a, there's a delicate
balance between org strategy anddata science to make effective
visualizations.
(22:53):
you have to really?
Understand The nature of workand understand like your
audience.
To build something that peoplecan actually use.
Having a bunch of bar graphs andcharts and lines and stickers
and numbers everywhere.
Like, yeah, it looks really busyand it looks very informative,
(23:13):
but what are you actually doingwith that?
So that's the first thing issome of these reports are very,
they're very busy, but they'renot actually very insightful.
they look busy though.
They look, uh.
Smart, but if you can't reallyaction on them, then what is it
(23:34):
really for?
The other, the other piece isthat organizations often are,
like, they have a, they mighthave a bunch of, they have a
bunch of data and they'repulling the data, but they're
not connecting the dots betweentheir DA data sets, so.
they may have their sentimentdata in one place.
(23:54):
Their payroll data.
Another place their headcountdata, another place their, their
Performance data, in anotherplace, their benefits elections
in another place, their app,their hiring and recruiting data
in another place.
and then they also might havetheir, their compliance.
Kenny (24:14):
Clients,
Zach (24:16):
and, and complaint hotline data.
in another place.
And there's nothing wrong withhaving that data in a bunch of
different places.
That's the nature of justtechnology.
Like, and like, yes, Workday anda DP, some of these places can
sell you on having everything inone consolidated place.
That's fine.
The, the, the, the labor and thedifferentiator for us is we are
(24:36):
passionate about stitching allof it together.
So What does.
Your Gen X black engineer who isa woman and a caretaker, on
your, on the, on, on the WestCoast, How, what is their,
(24:59):
level?
what is that group's level oftrust compared to white baby
boomer executives on the Eastcoast?
Who are not caretakers, right?
So it's like that the ability?
to connect everything togetherand see what that person's or
group's experience might be interms of how long it takes for
'em to get promoted, how long,what their average performance
rating is, what kind of benefitsdo they typically elect and why,
(25:23):
what their, again, what theirtrust or sentiment is of their
leadership and organization.
But you can't really get acomplete picture of any employee
if you're not connecting allthe, all the data together.
And the last thing I'll sayabout the, about it is, is that.
That's one thing a lot of, A lotof times when it comes to data,
at best, people are looking atwhere they're at, right?
now, but Most people are lookingat where they, where they, where
(25:45):
they've been.
So they're looking at historicaldata.
You're looking, at old data.
You might be looking.
at data from last quarter orlast year, The future of this
space.
And when you, when you talkabout like really driving for
impact is being able to buildout predictive analytics so you
can understand what's coming.
And so living corporate we dothat work a lot, right, we're
(26:09):
able to take in your historicaldata and then get, leverage.
that to build out predictivemodels and then connect that to
a return on investment, right?
So, Hey, here's the turnover.
of this particular group.
Here's what it has been based ontrends and a variety of factors
right?
Basically just I guess thecalculations we build and the.
(26:30):
Formulas we build, Here's whereit's gonna be going.
If you pull this lever, maybeturnover goes down If you pull
this other lever.
turnover may go up.
And also, here's the cost.
to your enterprise.
Because of that decision.
Here's the cost If you are, ifyou do nothing, here's the cost.
If you do B, here's the cost.
if you do see.
(26:52):
And so like that level ofinsight helps organizations make
better decisions.
and at least helps them make andalso can accelerate decisions
because it's not a bunch ofpeople kind of licking their
fingers, sticking in the air orarguing anecdotally about what
has always.
worked versus what won't work.
(27:14):
We're being informed by thedata.
Kenny (27:18):
I like that.
data storytelling.
It seems like that's gonna be askill that you just touched on,
but I think that's definitelyfor those that are like tapping
into new wave of like analyticsand ai, like that's an area
where, to your point, Zachary,like you're, I appreciate you
(27:40):
telling that story.
Some people aren't the best attelling that or having that.
They don't have that ability totell the story.
And so they're gonna be willingto connect with somebody who is
strong and leverages that as asuperpower.
So.
As you were just talking aboutthat whole scenario, like you
really painted a full picture,like if I can think of this as
(28:01):
like the movie, the HR movie,right?
In terms of the data coming in,maybe there's a problem and then
you come in and you provide thatsolution to your customer or
your client who's the maincharacter.
Talk a little bit about pricingjust real fast.
Not, you don't have to getspecific, but how do you, how do
you price
Zach (28:19):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (28:20):
like this that sounds rather nuanced and complex for.
An executive or somebody whoreally, really needs to make a
decision on this rather quickly,and they don't, they may not
care about the, the ins and outsof it, the nuts and bolts, or
they
Zach (28:36):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (28:36):
talk.
a little bit about how youprice, what living, corporate,
offers to the world.
Zach (28:41):
Yeah.
I love.
contextualizing it in terms oflike a team.
So if you were to go out andhire.
analytics team for yourenterprise.
You're probably gonna spend,let's say you, let's say let's,
let's say you hire three people.
Let's say you hire like a seniordata scientist, A junior
(29:01):
analyst, and like one morejunior analyst, right?
Let's say you have a small team,you're probably gonna st on the
low end, probably still spendabout$500,000.
Kenny (29:09):
Yeah.
Easy.
Zach (29:10):
Right.
Like that's not just salary,that's total comp.
And I feel like I'm being reallyconservative when I say$500,000.
So for us, we like to say, Heylook, we're a fraction of that
over a year, right?
we love coming in and like beingthat partner over a set period
of time because we want to beable to stand up some solutions
(29:34):
and be an ongoing point ofsupport.
And that really is how weoperate.
and it's been successful so farwhen we've contextualized it
that way, right?
So if I come to you and we put$150,000 price tag on something
and it's analytics over thecourse of a year, and here's all
(29:56):
the pieces you're going to get,and here's what you're saving.
Because if you went out andhired a, just if you hired a
single data scientist.
You're gonna spend at least$80,000 in salary, like, let
alone benefits, right?
If you were to hire a seniordata scientist who, like is
coming in, who has experience inworking with various
(30:19):
visualization tools, whounderstands Python, who's gonna,
who has experience, and andunderstanding people data and
other types of data sets, that'sgonna be expensive.
And so we like to, we alwayslike to see, we always like to
position ourselves as afractional.
Partner to organizations who arelooking to accelerate in, to,
(30:41):
accelerate themselves toinsight.
Kenny (30:44):
That fractional word.
I've been seeing a lot more ofthat, lately.
and I, I appreciate you breakingit down that way because first
glance, somebody could say, Hey.
You're selling it for cheaper,but not necessarily because like
you said, there is a, a cheapercomponent, but you're doing
things in, in a much moreefficient way and then you're,
Zach (31:06):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (31:07):
like the, the cost of benefits and some of the other
things that come with makingsomebody full-time that factor
in as
Zach (31:13):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (31:14):
of just that base price that we, that we all think in
terms of the way that we paypeople.
I like that
Zach (31:20):
100 per 100%, man.
Kenny (31:23):
Yeah.
No, I, I always ask folks, I'm,I've been asking more and more
folks lately around the, the,the way that stuff is priced,
products and services and yourbusiness is an example of that.
When we're, we're.
on a B2B marketplace.
Um, I certainly think that we,we have some opportunities for
(31:44):
more folks, specifically blackfounders, to go in that space.
And the, the point to which youjust explained is a perfect
example of that, where there'sso much value to unlock.
Once you figure out the need forthat business.
Businesses have to do some ofthese core functional.
Like domain areas, like theyhave to have HR expertise in
some form or fashion, right?
(32:06):
And so they can go out and theycan kind of build out a, a
function internally.
Right.
and waste a lot of resources.
Or they can be, uh, much moreprecise, like Swiss Army knife,
right?
So have somebody come in like aZ right, and really get to the
pain point in an effective way,for whatever duration of time.
(32:27):
But then that value is unlockedfor them.
and a lot of times they'rewilling to spend that.
They're, they, they're gonnaspend that money regardless.
Why not spend it a little bitmore effectively?
B2B is the, I I I, I've beenpreaching this for like the last
year or so.
I really want to see more blackfounders get into the B2B space.
I think it, the,
Zach (32:45):
Yeah, man.
Kenny (32:46):
it's in our face, right?
Like every single day
Zach (32:49):
Mm-hmm.
Kenny (32:49):
a way to sell a, a product to the consumer
audience.
But the bag is what?
B2B, that's just my, that's just
Zach (32:57):
Man,
Kenny (32:57):
moment, Zach.
Zach (32:58):
man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump up there with you because
like, well, here's the thing,Like I think, so a couple, a
couple things for me.
Because I spent so much of mycareer in consulting, and
frankly, I have like a fairlyconsultative approach just in
how I think about work.
So even before I worked atAccenture, was my fir the first
firm, my, my first stop in myconsulting journey, I was a HR
(33:23):
business partner, right?
And so tho and really a, aneffective HR business partner
operates consultatively.
They use Socratic, reasoning andmethods to help people.
Like, get to a place.
They, they ask a lot ofquestions.
they provide a ve a variety ofrecommendations.
They, they, they, they influencewithout authority.
(33:46):
Like, you know, that's what aeffective, any business partner,
certain, let alone an HRbusiness partner does well.
And so when I think about, Ithink about business and I think
about like where I see the mostimpact.
I do think about selling toother businesses.
I also struggle as a blackfounder, a black entrepreneur, a
black CEO, selling toindividuals.
(34:10):
When I can look at the, themarket and see that buyer, like
the buyer is having a reallyhard time, the individual
consumer's having a really hardtime right now, right?
Like everything's getting moreexpensive.
Right, like and I struggle'causeand PE and I mean people have
pop, like they've told me, Zach,why don't you charge people for
this or charge people for that?
(34:32):
Like, you know, sell the andsell it.
And then we have a Patreon thatwe do not update.
I need to update it.
I definitely would love peopleto support the Patreon.
At the same time I got thesetwins, I got two other kids, I
got a bunch of stuff going on.
I am not prioritized the Patonas I should, but I'm open to
people supporting.
Supporting, right.
If they want to support andgive.
They can, for extra content orbonus material or early mat,
(34:55):
early content, that's fine.
But like I struggle to sell toa, a group of people that they
need help, right?
likeI'm not gonna sell a webinarto a bunch of black and brown
people or other, or queer peopleon how to navigate the world of
work.
I should just tell you that,like, that's my own personal,
(35:17):
that's my personal.
Like ethics though, right?
Everybody is different, right?
And there's whole businessesbuilt on selling people
liberation and like that istheir choice.
I'm not gonna shame that.
I'm not gonna attack that.
I, just am not gonna emulatethat.
what I would much rather, do,and.
God has blessed me so far inthis is.
(35:40):
I'd much rather give away thepodcast for free.
Our access to our, archive onour website,
living-corporate.com.
Please say the dash, you can,you can go there.
If you make an account, you cansee our whole library, right?
Not gonna charge you a thing.
Now, I am gonna ask forinformation so you can build,
you have to build a profile, butit's free though, right?
(36:00):
I'd much rather.
do that and then charge Amazon.
Charge Pfizer charge.
UNICEF charge Intuit.
I'd rather charge theseinstitutions, not only that, who
can not only, afford it, butare.
looking for black-ownedbusinesses to say that they
support.
You know what I'm saying?
And so I'm always gonna be aproponent of B2B.
(36:23):
And as I think about the futureof work, the future of work is
not, really gonna be, it's likeI don't think that, that the
worker who is like reallylooking to thrive.
yes, Look, you can have merchand you can have other, I'm not,
I'm not knocking that we havemerch, but merch is not in no
way.
I don't ever think about.
living corporate's merch site asa revenue, stream at living.
(36:45):
I just do not, right?
I'm like ultimately you're gonnaneed to figure out what
enterprise, solution you'redelivering and guess what?
You're scale like you can scalewith that in a much better way,
even when times are tough,right?
So down markets and during downmarkets.
You're doing B2B,
Kenny (37:05):
you,
Zach (37:06):
you may only need to close like two clients.
Kenny (37:09):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (37:10):
to be okay, but if you're a B2C Model and everybody's
getting crushed or squeezed bythe market, well guess what?
now you gotta go extra crazy.
Kenny (37:24):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (37:26):
To match your revenue.
Whereas before, let's say likeif in 2024 you signed a
multi-year contract withsomebody with a big company and
it was like, a hundred thousanddollars a year.
Well, guess what?
When the, when their tough yearcomes, you still at least got
revenue from it.
It's just a different way ofworking and thinking that I
(37:47):
believe is just much moresustainable.
Kenny (37:48):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (37:49):
in, it can Be intimidating.
It could Be intimidating.
But it's, I believe it's muchmore rewarding and I think it's
much.
more sustainable, especially inlike times like this where
companies are closing left andright.
Small business are gettingcrushed right now.
Kenny,
Kenny (38:06):
Speak on it.
Zach (38:09):
They getting crushed.
Kenny (38:10):
yeah, I completely agree.
for folks that may, see ourpodcast content and have any
inclination that I'm makingmoney off of this, the podcast
itself, like to Zachary's Pointis really giving away for free.
Like we've tried sponsorshipsand we've tried some different
things in the past.
wasn't as much a focus on themoney in those cases versus like
(38:34):
the network or there was like asynergy there in terms of what
we want to focus on in terms ofcontent.
And so I appreciate you sayingthat Zachary just like given
the, given the game away forfree, um.
At a certain level to kind ofenable, the consumer or the
individual to, you know, figurethings out in their own way.
(38:57):
then on the flip side of that,at that marketplace kind of
viewpoint, right?
Using those, some of those B2Brelationships to, to.
To, to really make a living andbecome whole again.
If I can say that from like arevenue perspective, I'm not mad
at that at all.
I'd appreciate if a big companycame along and threw the bag our
way for this podcast stuff.
(39:19):
but certainly I'm not lookingto, to nickel and dime my way,
to, you know, a point ofconsistent or.
A surplus of revenue, from, froma content perspective.
So I appreciate you throwingthat out there.
that is a good segue though,because I want to touch real
briefly on the content, itselfthat Living Corporate has.
(39:42):
I think I saw on the website youall have a thousand plus podcast
episodes.
so we're approaching a hundred.
I don't even know.
What I'll look like if I were toproduce a thousand pieces of,
podcast content, but that isneither here nor there.
Like, talk a bit a little bitabout your strategy from a
content perspective where it'snot just, you having your show,
(40:05):
right?
You're, you're bringing alongothers and it's really.
This network effect, that, that,that has been really cool to
kind of witness, you do that.
But talk a little bit about, youknow, what other content you
have on the platform besidesyour living corporate base
product.
And then like, you know, whatthis does for your business
overall.
(40:26):
Having this, having this muchcontent at your fingertips to,
to give to your audience.
Zach (40:32):
Yeah, so you know, first things first is we have.
Obviously to your point, wehave, we have myself, living
corporate real talk Tuesdays.
man, real talk Tuesdays.
We've been like in and aroundTuesday.
'cause Kenny, I, man, I'm gonnatell you, I'm telling y'all, I'm
telling you man, these newbornshave been whooping my behind,
but we still uploading and whenthat we're having really frank,
(40:56):
unapologetic, unfiltereddiscussions about, the world of
work at the intersection oflived experience.
And so we're gonna talk about.
Li honestly, everything wetalked about today between
employee experience, customerexperience, navigating, the
world of work as an ally, whatdoes it mean to like really be
inclusive, managing your own,wellness, and the whole scope of
(41:16):
wellness?
What does that mean?
different types of research.
So we're gonna interviewacademics, advisors, elected
officials, influencers, authors,entrepreneurs, civil servants.
The list goes on.
But that's not the only show toyour point on the Living
Corporate Network.
We also have, we, we also have ashow called Your Turn, which is
really aimed to be, aimed at,gen Zers and very, very young
(41:40):
millennials.
And that's really hosted by mysiblings who are a band, called
None Above.
And so they do a really good jobjust talking about.
The business of music.
'cause they're,'cause they're aband.
So they talk about the world ofmusic and they talk about
navigating the music world asyoung black professionals, young
black artists.
we have a show called, we Ain'tDying for This, hosted by
Crystal Johnson, who is a and aDEI, HR executive.
(42:04):
Is, but she's talking aboutblack women and liberation and
identity.
And then we have a bunch ofother, like limited series that
we've, that have been on livingcorporate, so right, so they're
not in perpetuity livingcorporate proper.
real talk Tuesdays and the bonusshows that come from me are the
only things that'll go on thatwill never stop.
Right?
There's never an off season forliving c.
(42:25):
flagship, but We, have, we've.
had a bunch of other shows overthe years.
Right.
I'm thinking about the fact thatLiving Corporate started in
2018.
Right.
So we've had a lot of differentshows.
We've, we've had the accesspoint, which is, which was built
on, supporting and advocatingfor a.
aspiring professionals, people,kid, younger people coming out
(42:45):
of college.
we've had, we've had the tap inwith Tristan, tap in with
Tristan was All about resumewriting and getting a job and
like navigating the world ofLinkedIn.
you know, we've had, we've had,liberated Love notes, which is
about black women and identityand and healing and growth,
right?
So we've had all sorts.
(43:05):
of, limited series, right?
If you're talking about.
20, 30, 60 episodes.
and to, to your, to yourquestion about how does it fill,
fill into our larger contentstrategy.
One, we wanna be able to be aresource for folks.
So when you go on our websiteand you type in something where
(43:26):
you look for something, we wannabe able to be a thought leader.
And so we're passionate aboutcreating content that's
engaging.
And then on top of that, thecontent, though our podcast.
After a while, Kenny, I had toask myself, okay, what is the
lifespan of a pod episode,right?
If you drop a pod on a Monday,What is the value of that pod?
(43:49):
Two Mondays later,
Kenny (43:51):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (43:52):
Right?
and the answer for most peopleis not that much.
Like, you know, you chew the gyou spit it out, you pick
another piece of g right?
And That's not a, that's not aslight, on.
That particular pod.
I mean like Bruce Springsteen Iwanna say.
And Barack Obama had.
a podcast.
Do You go back and listen tothem podcast episodes?
(44:13):
No.
Some of y'all don't even knowpeople listening, don't even
know they had a pod.
You know what I'm saying?
Kenny (44:17):
saying?
Zach (44:17):
So what do you do though?
with all the ip, the thoughtleadership that you've created
over time?
What do you do?
So for us, what we decided todo.
We decided to take all of the,we decided to take all the
transcripts of all of ourpodcasts and we decided to build
(44:38):
an AI engine called InsightEngine and it, we fed the
transcripts into this engine andthen turned those transcripts
into e-learning modules.
And then we took those modulesand we put them on a custom.
Player like A a customenvironment, very similar to
(45:00):
like Spotify, but Spotify, butfor employee experience and
inclusive leadership.
And we sell that as a B2Bsubscription
Kenny (45:12):
subscription.
Zach (45:13):
to companies looking to drive engagement and drive
learning and training.
Kenny (45:18):
I wish I
Zach (45:19):
So
Kenny (45:20):
cache.
I wish I had a cache button.
'cause that is like a money,that's a gem right there.
like you dropping gems orsomething like that.
A sound.
'cause that was amazing.
But keep going Zach.
I just got excited and I don'tknow if you could tell my eyes
got big as you were talking.
but that excited me what youjust said and then you explained
(45:41):
and I hope people are listening,to that little nugget because
I'll be clipping that up forsure.
Zach (45:48):
No, no.
I was trying to find, hold on.
I was trying to find.
Just trying to, I got my littlesoundboard thing right here, so
I was just trying to find.
Kenny (45:55):
Yeah, that's a good one.
The flex bomb.
Yes.
Yes.
Play it it play it.
Please.
Because what you just said, Idon't think, don't think, people
really understand the context ofthat.
If you have a thousand, Play it.
Go.
Thank, thank, thank you, sir.
Yes.
Play it again.
And play it.
Play it one more time if youwant.
Because that sounded like moneybeing dropped gems, but man,
(46:16):
having a thousand transcripts.
And then dropping it into theai.
Now that's something informed,right?
Like you, to your point, as youwere explaining, it was like
it's gonna give you somethingthat is really tailored to
Zachary's been talking aboutsince 2018, right?
Like that's powerful in and ofitself, having that, and then
you turn around and charge forit.
(46:38):
Oh my gosh.
Zach (46:41):
And so and so look, man, it's a great tool because, and
I, man, I just wanna say.
I wanna say, man, shout out toAmplify Credit Union.
amplify Credit Union.
I'm an excellent partner.
and Angela?
(47:03):
Angela and the whole team overthere.
Ashley Cunningham.
you know, I just wanted AngelaShaw to be clear, Ashley
Cunningham, but really liketheir willingness to be like.
An early partner, an earlyclient, for the tool and like
it's so dope seeing, seeingthem.
We have some other clients aswell who like will make a
(47:26):
playlist.
'cause what you do is, so thinkabout it like this.
Think about like Spotify.
You go on Spotify, you are like,I need to make a playlist for my
cousin graduation party.
Or I need to make a playlist formy baby's eighth birthday party.
So you're gonna go on Spotify oryou're gonna type in some songs,
right?
There's all types of songs.
(47:46):
You choose what you want, youtake that playlist, and then you
can then send it out to people.
You send it, you can send it toyour partner, who's then gonna
stream, who's gonna play it onthe Bluetooth speaker, or you
send it to whomever.
Right?
So it's really the same idea.
In this platform, it's reallyabout, you can make a playlist.
(48:08):
on like, let's say HispanicHeritage Month.
And because we've been talkingto so many people over the
years, there's gonna be moduleson supporting Latinx identity.
Why the term Latinx?
Why does every, does everyoneagree on Latinx, right?
Like, what does it mean to be anally?
Like what does it mean?
Like we have tons of contentlike that.
(48:30):
Are you on Women's HistoryMonth?
Supporting women in theworkplace, why women are
effective leaders.
Why this, why that, right?
Like, but there's a treasuretrove of content from all the
discussions we've had over theyears.
And so then what you are able todo then is you can build out
playlists and then share them toyour organization's intranet to
(48:53):
their environment.
So the reason I wanna shout outAmplify is because I love the
way that they.
They're like, Hey, look, we gotour, we got our cultural
calendar and we have the thingsthat we wanna highlight, and
we're gonna leverage thisplatform.
We're gonna build playlists, andevery month we're gonna release
(49:15):
a different playlist tohighlight different topics.
And so and so.
Not, it's not a pure LMS, right?
So when you click that module,you're gonna get the Audio or
video file or.
both.
You're gonna get a summary ofwhat that conversation's about.
You're gonna get discussionquestions, and you're gonna get
(49:36):
action items.
And the reason why I did notwant to try to build a Skillsoft
or a Udemy is because I'm notlooking to replace a pure LMS.
I'm looking to be that solution.
As brands divest from full scaleDEI teams and spending$30,000 on
(49:59):
DEI speakers that this can be anongoing resource that is caught,
that is economically feasiblefor them, and could be something
that supplements and sitsalongside a pure LMS.
Kenny (50:14):
Bars.
I'm not, I, I don't even need tosay nothing else.
I, I, I.
Just folks listen in, to what hejust said.
you held that until the end.
So I'm glad because that's theclippable moment For sure.
Or one of the many.
but just seeing, hearing you saythat just now, I got a little, I
got a little too excited, I justwanna say, thank you for being
(50:39):
on as a guest.
Like seriously, Zachary, thisis, I learned from the first
second you started talking untilthe end and it only got better
and better.
There was like a amazing ramp upto, to you closing us out with
that.
speaking of close.
I definitely wanna pass it toyou.
Let folks know how they can tapin with the brand.
(51:00):
I think you, you mentioned theURL earlier, but I wanna make
sure we get that right at theend so folks know where to tap
in.
Zach (51:08):
For sure.
Look, man, it's living Dashcorporate, please say the
dash.com.
But if you just Google LivingCorporate, we will pop up.
I'll Kenny, I'll give you myLinkedIn on, so that way I'm
Zachary nun.
Zach nun, look me up.
There's really only two Zacknuns.
All right.
There's this Zack nun andthere's some like Republican
(51:29):
MAGA dude from Iowa.
Like I'm obviously not that Zacknun, but I'm gonna put, I'm
gonna give Kenny theinformation.
Y'all click the links in theshow notes, but again, it's
Living Corporate, Google LivingCorporate.
We will pop up if you wanna goto a URL living corporate.com or
you could do livingcorporate.co, living
corporate.net, livingcorporate.us living
(51:50):
corporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, living
corporate.ai.
If you, you can do like weeverywhere, just search live in.
corporate and we gonna pop up.
Kenny (51:59):
I like that.
so, lasting thought.
What do you want as the lastingthought for our listeners who,
chime, chimed in, listen todayto this conversation?
Like what do you want them totake away and remember, from
this amazing conversation thatwe had?
Zach (52:17):
So my assumption is that the majority of your listeners
are like individuals like blackand brown, probably Working
people, right?
They're not necessarily likeexecutive buyers.
Kenny (52:28):
Yeah, working business owners.
But you hit it, right, Dan Nailright on the head.
Black and brown for sure.
Zach (52:35):
Cool.
So I.
think the takeaway I just want,I want people to hear is that
like you're enough, you are notyour productivity, you're not
your brand, you're not yourrevenue.
You're enough by yourself, andyou don't have to be defined by
those things, even thoughcapitalism demands that we are.
I think the other thing I wannasay is that.
(52:55):
You can't outperform whitesupremacy.
So seek to be yourself everyday.
Seek to be more authentic toyour own principles and goals
every day, and allow those goalsto be things that are not driven
by what some white folks toldyou.
Allow those goals to besomething that are driven by
what your spirit tells you andhonor that, and I promise you,
(53:19):
as someone who's on that journeywith you every day gets a bit
more liberating.
Kenny (53:25):
Appreciate it, Zach.
Thanks for tuning into anothergreat episode of The Beyond
Normal Podcast folks.
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