July 12, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of the Beyond Normal Podcast, we sit down with Khalil El-Amin — co-founder of NicheFire and a true cultural strategist. Khalil takes us through his journey from the football field to founding a tech company that helps brands understand culture in real time. We talk about the hard choices that shaped his career, including stepping away from his father’s business and learning tough sales skills through door-to-door copier sales.
Khalil shares how growing up in a culturally diverse environment inspired him to build NicheFire, a platform that turns complex data into actionable cultural insights for brands. From spotting unexpected consumer trends to using AI to empower teams (not replace them), Khalil gives us a deep look into how culture and data can work hand in hand to shape brand strategy.
Tune in to learn how resilience, curiosity, and a willingness to bet on yourself can lead to big breakthroughs — both in business and in life.
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🔗 Learn more about NicheFire‘s work at: https://nichefire.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kenny (00:33):
Welcome, welcome everybody to another great
episode of the Beyond NormalPodcast, where you all know,
every founder story is a journeyworth exploring.
Today we have a very specialguest for you all, a chief
strategist, somebody who isfocusing on culture that is a
heavy word in today's time Theyare, Khalil El Amin, who is the
(00:54):
co-founder of Nichefire.
For those of you who are notfamiliar with the Nichefire
Tool, it's a tool that focuseson understanding cultural trends
at any moment across a wholehost of, platforms that we all
know and use, and it justremoves that heavy lifting for
users.
So without further ado, let'sbring Khalil to the stage so we
can get this conversation going.
(01:16):
How's it going, Khalil?
Khalil (01:17):
It is going well man.
I appreciate you having me.
Kenny (01:20):
Yes, for sure.
you, I had the, the, the luxuryof, connecting with you, in the
amazing city of Cincinnati.
the, the, you were, you showedme a good time.
You, you let me know like whatthe tech scene is looking like
in that, that that beautifulcity.
so I appreciate you for, youknow, Taking me in, with the
(01:43):
brotherly love for sure, when Iwas on that visit.
and we've been connecting eversince, and I just had to have
you on the platform, for theamazing work that you're doing.
so I, I just wanted to sayappreciate you for coming on the
platform.
Let's start out first questionthough.
Before you were working onNichefire, tell us a little bit
about your story.
You know, what you were doingwith your life.
(02:04):
What was your life focus beforebeing a, taking that gamble on
yourself and, and being afounder?
Khalil (02:10):
Oh God.
Kenny (02:11):
That's
Khalil (02:11):
a, that's actually an excellent question it it.
Always comes up.
I was a, I was an athlete, sofor most of Most of my life
working towards, be becoming aprofessional athlete was, my
main goal.
So, after high school, I, I, afull, athletic scholarship.
(02:33):
I had a had a lot of choices.
chose to stay in Cincinnati andI played for the University of
Cincinnati where, was able to,win a couple championships do a
whole lot.
So really before all of thetech, entrepreneur, you know,
stuff that I started to pick upon, it was all about football,
(02:56):
man.
So, waking up early, working outprotein shakes, you know what I
mean?
the, normal athletic, routinesand lifestyles.
What, what I was living intoand, um.
I made it, well, I, I got pickedup as a free agent after
college, with the ArizonaCardinals, but I got cut, I got
(03:16):
cut in mini camps, so I neverreally even got a chance to get
my professional career going.
Now, I did play some arenafootball, couple years after
that to kind of get football outof my system, but, that's kind
of where it started with for meis, is just kind of figuring out
how to reinvent myself.
Um.
(03:37):
And then naturally, father is anentrepreneur.
My, my father was anentrepreneur, successful
entrepreneur here in the city.
so so I went, you know, startedworking with the family
business, but quickly found thatI didn't didn't.
too much.
I jumped into, where was thatenterprise rental car.
(04:01):
I did the whole, you know, they,they hire athletes, they love
athletes there.
So I did enterprise for a littlebit, and then I moved to B2B
sales, at Xerox.
So, for a Xerox company.
Got a chance to get that goodsales training and, learned how
to go door to door.
selling copiers.
(04:22):
that was, That was, that waskind of my start.
like the corporate side.
And at And at that same time,learning, You know how to how to
become the, that I that I'mtoday mm-hmm.
that I was
Kenny (04:35):
Working.
Khalil (04:36):
well.
Kenny (04:37):
I appreciate that background.
you closing this out with,selling door to door, that.
That is a, that is a path tolearning how to do sales.
rather, that's not a greatexperience for most people that
I, I've talked to who go downthe path of door to door sales.
(04:58):
But you definitely, everybody Italk to, they know they have
some takeaways from thatexperience that they leveraged
for their whole career.
So I will say that much aboutthe door-to-door sales
Khalil (05:07):
Just, Just literally literally think about like
knocking on residential homes
Kenny (05:11):
homes door to door.
Khalil (05:13):
but business.
Kenny (05:16):
Yep.
So, the more,
Khalil (05:18):
more, more, you gotta be light on your feet, right?
You gotta be able to kind oftalk and, and deal with people's
objections and build up some,you know, pretty tough skin.
Kenny (05:31):
You know?
Mm-hmm.
Rather quickly.
So, I think, as you gave usthat, that breakdown there, a, a
common theme is, like you said,you've been.
You worked, for your, your, yourfamily business for a while,
like there's some legacy there.
I'm, I'm curious, like what werethe conversations like, shout
(05:54):
out to pops?
Like what were the conversationslike when you, you had to tell
them like, Hey, this isn't forme because.
You know, when we think aboutsomebody starting a business and
then you have it, you hand itover to your kids, there's this
ro romanticizing of that idea.
But that is not always the case.
(06:15):
So how did that conversation gofor you?
Khalil (06:19):
it was really hard.
it, it really changed me and mydad's relationship too.
as a little boy, I was likestuck to my dad's hip, right?
I did everything he did.
I always tried to go to workwith him and, and all those.
So naturally, I guess.
you build up some type of like,affinity for that thought,
(06:39):
right?
That, you know, someone's gonnatake over this one day and, and
naturally be my, my oldest or myoldest son or the, the, the
child that shows the mostinterest in the business.
And that was me.
I think the, the issue wasthere, there were a couple
different issues, right?
(07:00):
entrepreneurs, and, and youknow, just as much as me.
Um.
ups and downs, right?
My father ran a, commerciallandscaping business, did
really, really well for many,many years, but right Right
around.
where I was coming out ofcollege is where he was having
the most issues with thisbusiness.
(07:21):
So back to the business at thattime wasn't ideal for, a, a new
college grad, and it was 2008,so we're in the
Kenny (07:32):
Oh yeah.
Khalil (07:34):
I mean, I don't know how many of my friends end up going
to Korea to go teach and stuff
Kenny (07:39):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (07:40):
No
Kenny (07:40):
No one had a job.
Khalil (07:41):
what?
They graduated from college,with, like, I'm not, I'm not
Kenny (07:45):
I'm not,
Khalil (07:46):
one,
Kenny (07:46):
one
Khalil (07:47):
few people had a job
Kenny (07:49):
a job that.
Khalil (07:50):
with their degrees at that time.
So for me to jump intoentrepreneurship, that was like
a, you know, I graduated withmarketing and entrepreneurship
degree, so.
I
Kenny (08:01):
I got
Khalil (08:02):
the
Kenny (08:02):
the rough part of entrepreneurship, very, very
early.
Khalil (08:06):
By kind of
Kenny (08:06):
Kind of seeing
Khalil (08:07):
my
Kenny (08:07):
all my dad
Khalil (08:08):
was dealing with
Kenny (08:09):
with that
Khalil (08:10):
because of the
Kenny (08:11):
of the stress and
Khalil (08:13):
inconsistency inconsist of, you know,
Kenny (08:17):
revenue coming
Khalil (08:18):
like
Kenny (08:18):
back.
Khalil (08:19):
it was
Kenny (08:19):
It was hard.
Khalil (08:20):
dad to
Kenny (08:20):
dad
Khalil (08:21):
kind of
Kenny (08:21):
manage
Khalil (08:22):
that same entrepreneur.
He had always been.
I hadn't seen him, tread water,
Kenny (08:28):
Mm.
Khalil (08:28):
makes sense.
Kenny (08:29):
Yeah.
Khalil (08:30):
So it
Kenny (08:30):
So it became,
Khalil (08:31):
for me.
And at the
Kenny (08:33):
at the time, you know,
Khalil (08:34):
I had a
Kenny (08:34):
I, a girlfriend, I had a child on the way.
I had to make that decision.
Khalil (08:38):
was
Kenny (08:39):
It was hard talking
Khalil (08:39):
to my
Kenny (08:40):
to my dad about,
Khalil (08:41):
but we talked and he didn't
Kenny (08:44):
he didn't
Khalil (08:45):
but he dealt with it.
And, it was the
Kenny (08:50):
it was a
Khalil (08:51):
thing
Kenny (08:51):
thing for me at that time because what I was able to
Khalil (08:54):
was
Kenny (08:54):
twist c.
Khalil (08:56):
at scale how.
Kenny (08:58):
Scale.
Khalil (08:59):
Surviving businesses running right.
that, training program atEnterprise is world
Kenny (09:07):
world class.
Right?
Khalil (09:08):
can, you can talk to
Kenny (09:09):
Talk.
Anyone
Khalil (09:11):
and marketing, and leadership and they'll tell you
like some of the programs or, orthings that, that try to be,
that companies try to
Kenny (09:20):
Replic.
Khalil (09:21):
that's always one
Kenny (09:22):
One of.
Khalil (09:22):
and it's because they do a really good job of helping
you, like down a
Kenny (09:27):
with,
Khalil (09:28):
down to the spreadsheets.
I mean, like everything
Kenny (09:32):
matters, what your working, in that rental,
Khalil (09:35):
business.
So, I took
Kenny (09:38):
I took it as an opportunity.
Khalil (09:39):
and, you
Kenny (09:40):
You know, I, I hated to raise my dad's hard, but
Khalil (09:43):
it as an
Kenny (09:43):
an opportunity
Khalil (09:44):
to go
Kenny (09:44):
go be right, still learn more.
Khalil (09:48):
And,
Kenny (09:48):
all those things that I learned.
Khalil (09:50):
working in corporate America were pools that I was
able to kind of bring.
Kenny (09:55):
My,
Khalil (09:55):
my repertoire when I,
Kenny (09:57):
I jumped out.
Khalil (09:58):
And did enterprise, or
Kenny (09:59):
I first
Khalil (10:00):
entrepreneurship on my
Kenny (10:03):
on my own.
So, it, it was a toughconversation.
Khalil (10:06):
changed me and my dad's
Kenny (10:08):
my dad's relationship.
Khalil (10:09):
I don't
Kenny (10:11):
I don't think he presented for it, but
Khalil (10:15):
it was
Kenny (10:15):
it was definitely something that happened.
Khalil (10:17):
And I think that,
Kenny (10:18):
I think that,
Khalil (10:19):
Every son and
Kenny (10:21):
Father
Khalil (10:21):
relationship
Kenny (10:22):
a relationship that exists across that, that path.
Khalil (10:25):
point,
Kenny (10:25):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (10:27):
for sure.
Kenny (10:28):
Yeah.
That's, like you said, it, itis, it's bound to happen like it
should happen.
Having those like conversationsand there should be this
transition, it's just not gonnabe easy for, as I can only
imagine, like going to my dadand he's got this plan.
And I am like, nah, I'm notgoing with that plan,
Khalil (10:49):
It, it was one of those things where it was like, dad, I
got, I, I hear your plan, but Ithink your plan is broken.
Kenny (10:58):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (10:58):
So it's like, well, will you mean my plan is broken?
What
Kenny (11:03):
Yeah.
Khalil (11:04):
what do you know?
And I didn't understand thatpushback then, as much as I
understand it now.
Kenny (11:14):
For sure.
Khalil (11:15):
However, I still don't think I was wrong, right?
That I was wrong in trying tochange the way he was looking at
his business.
But the fact that he didn't wantto, I, I think, that gave me
enough understanding that I hadto change what I was doing
regardless.
Kenny (11:31):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (11:32):
That was the hard part, is like making the decision to.
That's gonna hurt someone thatyou love.
but it's the best decision foryourself.
Kenny (11:41):
Yeah, it
Khalil (11:41):
it kind of made
Kenny (11:42):
kind of made me feel selfish, but be selfish
sometimes.
Every founder's a littleselfish, man.
Khalil (11:48):
yes, man Yeah,
Kenny (11:49):
You gotta just be honest.
So I want to transition a littlebit, right?
So you, you had the, you, you,you knew you wanted to take this
gamble on yourself is what Ilike to call it, for folks.
So I'm curious.
You know, what was that fir Likeyour business is around culture
now, right?
Like, what was like that first?
(12:10):
How did this idea come together?
Like what was that first momentlike?
For, for, for Nichefire?
Because this is a broad topic tomost people don't say, Hey, I
want to have a culture tool, aculture solution.
Khalil (12:23):
we launched Nichefire back in 2017, and, and
originally it was a competitiveanalysis tool.
what we, what we did was, let meback
Kenny (12:36):
Back
Khalil (12:36):
right?
Let me tell you how
Kenny (12:38):
how
Khalil (12:39):
my founders.
Because this doesn't, thisdoesn't happen, and this kind of
plays into the why.
Why would you keep
Kenny (12:47):
you.
Khalil (12:47):
something if you don't?
You know, just bear with me.
So I'm selling copiers, right?
First year, B2B rep, salesmanager comes to the bullpen and
he says, Hey, I bought ticketsto this networking event.
Does anyone want to go?
Kenny (13:06):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (13:06):
I'm like, two, three weeks in
Kenny (13:10):
Free food and drink.
Right.
I'm assuming,
Khalil (13:12):
Free food and drink.
Kenny (13:13):
oh.
Khalil (13:15):
you know, sales manager, he's new.
one's giving him the energythat, that he wants.
see.
As a opportunity to, to,'causehe was cool.
I liked, I liked him.
he was a super cool manager, soI'm like, nah, I'll go right
now.
Everyone is just crickets,right?
(13:35):
No one wants to go ev like, noone even looks up from their
computer.
I'm like, Hey, let me go to thisnetworking event.
So we get there as a speednetworking event, right?
red flag number one already.
Weird, right?
All right, let's go through thetables.
Now.
I'm peeping the scene and it, itis a lot of like, you know,
(13:56):
older women, older people andthey, they were real familiar
with how they were pitching.
Like, Hey, let me watch, do youwanna come watch my video?
It was a bunch of networkmarketing people.
Kenny (14:10):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (14:11):
now the light bulb goes off.
This is why no one wanted tocome.
Everyone knew this was a bunch
Kenny (14:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (14:19):
I look,
Kenny (14:20):
look, I look at
Khalil (14:20):
the room
Kenny (14:20):
the room
Khalil (14:21):
to sit next to the
Kenny (14:22):
person,
Khalil (14:22):
least likely to pitch me.
There's a gentleman
Kenny (14:25):
gentleman
Khalil (14:25):
pfo, right?
I sit next to
Kenny (14:28):
next to them,
Khalil (14:29):
You go to uc or you went to uc?
He said, yeah, alumni.
Me too.
and this
Kenny (14:36):
person,
Khalil (14:37):
right?
So, halfway through it you
Kenny (14:41):
through you get, you know,
Khalil (14:42):
all
Kenny (14:42):
all these network.
Khalil (14:43):
teams getting up, selling stuff.
So
Kenny (14:45):
So, hey,
Khalil (14:46):
let's go
Kenny (14:46):
let's go get coffee.
Khalil (14:47):
complete trash.
it,
Kenny (14:51):
it, it was, it literally,
Khalil (14:53):
to happen because at that time, I'm learning
Kenny (14:55):
I'm learning.
Khalil (14:55):
digital marketing.
I can't execute on the design.
Michael was designer and.
know, partial coder, right?
And we were like, Hey, why don'twe join together and like, just
start something.
So a week after meeting at thatevent, him and I started an
agency and that was a realbusiness that I started.
So fast forward to, fast
Kenny (15:19):
fast forward to
Khalil (15:19):
know, kind of getting to Nichefire.
We
Kenny (15:22):
started in 20,
Khalil (15:25):
17.
this is after we shut down theagency and everything.
We
Kenny (15:29):
wanted to build
Khalil (15:30):
that leveraged social
Kenny (15:33):
media,
Khalil (15:33):
AI to, to
Kenny (15:35):
to provide a
Khalil (15:36):
a cultural, or excuse me, a, competitive
Kenny (15:39):
kind of analysis.
Khalil (15:40):
and doing this
Kenny (15:41):
This work.
Khalil (15:42):
And, you know, we kind of built this tool out.
It, it got really, really
Kenny (15:47):
Really good.
Khalil (15:48):
and stuff like that from our peers and testing and stuff
like that.
And we were, we were able to getone customer, one big customer
from it, and we just kind oflanded, expanded with that
customer to survive for a longtime.
But the pain wasn't painfulenough in the market for that
tool.
it wasn't until the, you know,the one of the departments we
(16:09):
were selling into came to usand, and they told us that, you
know, they thought
Kenny (16:13):
They thought our tool was
Khalil (16:14):
really
Kenny (16:15):
really awesome.
Khalil (16:15):
is like market
Kenny (16:16):
Market research
Khalil (16:17):
So we're excited.
that
Kenny (16:19):
that
Khalil (16:20):
thinks our tool is good and said, but, but our
Kenny (16:22):
But our problem isn't really the kind of analysis
thing.
It's us understanding, thoseunknown unknowns.
Khalil (16:29):
right?
We have these
Kenny (16:30):
Social
Khalil (16:31):
tools.
We have
Kenny (16:32):
have these,
Khalil (16:32):
know,
Kenny (16:33):
you know, workflows
Khalil (16:34):
this information from consumers, but we
Kenny (16:36):
don't have a way
Khalil (16:38):
what to search for when we don't know
Kenny (16:40):
that.
Khalil (16:41):
So if you guys could build a tool that did that, that
would be golden for us.
So kind of went back to thedrawing board and, you know,
luckily Michael was able to kindof think, think, think about
ways and confirm ways that wepulled in the data and, and if,
you know, through datascientists, if we could make
these assumptions around, youknow, unknown unknowns and, and
(17:04):
culture.
And that
Kenny (17:06):
That literally was the.
Khalil (17:07):
of our, our first pivot into this cultural listening
tool.
Um.
We spent, we spun up a MVPvalidated with individuals, and
it it got the attention that wealways wanted.
when That's when we knew, tokind kind of take this move
forward.
Now, Now, on the personal side,what what resonated for me was
(17:30):
that I grew up in a veryculturally diverse, world,
right?
My, my parents were Muslim,we're only Only Muslim in our
Kenny (17:39):
are higher family.
Khalil (17:41):
of my family's Christian.
Right.
So I always
Kenny (17:44):
I always had that dynamic there.
Khalil (17:45):
neighborhood I grew
Kenny (17:46):
I grew up in,
Khalil (17:47):
and the school that I went to had a lot of Jewish
Jewish, I grew, I grew up grewup with a lot of Jewish kids
kids.
and learning about Hanukkah and,and some of their traditions.
and then I
Kenny (17:58):
I always like this
Khalil (18:00):
nerdy athlete type as
Kenny (18:02):
as well,
Khalil (18:03):
So so I've always kind of had a chameleon in how how.
with individuals.
So the, the fact that we landedinto this cultural.
Technology, it was
Kenny (18:13):
It was like.
Khalil (18:14):
fake.
Right?
So, I hope that answers thequestion I get.
I.
Kenny (18:19):
No, it definitely does, man.
Like, you're, you're, you're,you, you, you, you really went
through the whole like, genesis,right?
Like that, that thought, likesometimes that can be like a
trick question for somebody toask you.
Like you said, like.
Like, what was the first ideathat you all pulled together for
the company?
Like, and you gave me the fullstory, so I appreciate that.
(18:39):
Like I saw the movie play out,I, as you were talking about it,
and I think that's reallypowerful because like as I
mentioned at the top of thecall, right, every I.
Founder story, right?
It's a journey.
Like it's a movie that you, youcan share as much as you want,
and then it's up to us as thelisteners.
I'm a listener in that case asyou were telling that story.
So I appreciate you sharing alittle bit about your
(19:01):
background.
You, you threw in a word thereas you were explaining it
though.
you mentioned it first.
I didn't.
Folks, we talk about it a lot.
The word is called AI, or theterm is called AI now.
Right?
Khalil (19:13):
Oh
Kenny (19:13):
So I'm, I'm curious, like how do you keep.
All right.
How do you keep the work you'redoing grounded in like the human
element, right?
When you're building somethingthat has a focus on AI and
there's like this, how do I getto the perfect answer in the, on
the back of people's minds?
(19:34):
I'm curious, like what, what'syour thoughts around that?
Khalil (19:36):
So when we, you know, the, the fact that, you know,
almost 10 years ago we wereentertaining AI, that, that that
word was me.
key And reinventing or just kindof burning my ships and saying,
Hey, I'm gonna do this techthing now.
Right?
(19:56):
Because what I what I saw 10years ago.
Wasn't the threatening side thata lot of people think about when
it comes to AI.
I was thinking about more of thepractical applications of the
AI, how it helps people dothings better.
Right.
I've I.
like the AI should empower teamsto help them get more meaningful
(20:21):
work faster, and really what theNichefire tool, even when it was
a competitive analysis tool,that's what it did.
At its core is that it madesmarter, it made smart people
smarter because it cut down onthe research side.
(20:41):
That would have to, that's thatone would have to do when you're
doing some type of competitiveanalysis, right?
So So instead of, you know, toone to two maybe even three
people within a team or a cohortworking on a on a project,
around understanding.
a a, a particular element youthrow so AI tool, Now now you.
(21:04):
added what's, what seems to be adata scientist, a couple data
scientists, a couple Coupleanalysts, right?
right?
It it seemed to kind of supersupercharged far groups so that
they that they spend less timedigging and, and trying to
figure out out what's happening,and more more time on reacting
(21:25):
from.
the information.
Mm-hmm.
So now, fast fast forward thatto now cultural listing
technology.
We're providing businesses thethe business to cut cut through
80 to to hour.
per project, right?
Months that these teams would bestuck doing.
(21:46):
So what What that means is thatMr.
customer here.
spends almost the entire monthtrying to understand one element
of culture.
Now they can understand manyelements of culture at one time
and spend more time ideation,planning, strategic, you know,
strategic, having thosestrategic conversations with the
(22:09):
brand.
market research, tuning tuningall those areas, with beforehand
So again, and like, I think Ithink when we first started, a
lot of people were talk talkingabout AI because the fear of it
taking over, taking someone'sjob.
And and now we're in this eraof, you know, AI as my as my
(22:31):
partner, AI as I is my friend.
which really helps out Nichefirebecause now when we're selling
in, it's not a lot of pushbackof, oh, I'm gonna lose my job.
Or This is gonna, people seethis as a tool to kind of help
them advance their career.
Kenny (22:48):
I love that.
Yeah.
I think it is the, the tool'shere to stay like you, like you
said.
So it's like, like why not getthe most of it?
Make yourself that much moreefficient.
I think that's a powerful way togo about it.
whether somebody's a smallbusiness owner, you know,
they're, they got a business onMain Street, or they're building
a tech company, like what youall are building with Nichefire.
(23:09):
Like there's a need for AI nowto.
To scale up, you threw somethingin there around CPG, consumer,
good companies.
Right.
I, I'm curious, like with youbeing, and you and your team
being based in Cincinnati, howhas that shaped how you're
growing the business?
'cause I know there is like abig CPG focus in, in Cincinnati
(23:30):
and the surrounding area, so I'mcurious, like, how has being in
that, in that city, in thatarea, led to some opportunities
or, or maybe forced you to lookin other places?
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (24:09):
If I'm not mistaken, what you What you have also
behind that is some of the fromthe top you know, data.
I don't, I don't wanna call'emlike data warehouses, but like,
data, the the top, people likeusing data.
Leveraging data, right?
So we got like got 84 50, whichwhich is essentially, Kroger's.
(24:35):
You know, they house It has allthe program data and and many,
many, many other retail data,data data, but have you have
some of the, top top mind in thespace of of working working with
data and, and data data andanalytics and stuff like that
that come come with that aswell.
So So being here, and beingbeing connected to the you know,
(24:56):
the startup like that, it italmost, um.
It was it was hard.
because being that the, those,you know, those young Young guys
that are trying try to do thisin this space, these giants that
have been doing it, you don'treally get heard immediately.
So what we had to do is reallyfigure out, where do where do we
(25:20):
make that, where do we providethat most?
Right?
Right?
and it was specifically thesocial intelligence, Right.
right?
So we found the proof thatliterally how.
Social top social intelligentpracti practitioners from all
from all over the world was athere's a growing group as well.
(25:41):
we we spent at like our lastdollars to scholar to be a part
of this cohort where we went andinspiring how talk we do do and
how how to how to build up thevalue of social intelligence
stuff and stuff like that.
So that helped us.
You know, kind of, it, it, ithelped Helped us get out in
(26:02):
front of us that wasn't wasn't,yet.
And
Kenny (26:06):
mm-hmm.
Khalil (26:07):
we
Kenny (26:07):
We had to leave,
Khalil (26:08):
to do
Kenny (26:09):
do that.
But what happens
Khalil (26:10):
after
Kenny (26:11):
that
Khalil (26:11):
the
Kenny (26:12):
is
Khalil (26:12):
Right
Kenny (26:13):
now
Khalil (26:14):
we are
Kenny (26:14):
we're able to kind of get those
Khalil (26:15):
here locally.
We're able to
Kenny (26:16):
talk, those
Khalil (26:17):
top data scientists at, you know, x,
Kenny (26:20):
X, Y, Z
Khalil (26:21):
or that used
Kenny (26:22):
that used to work.
Khalil (26:23):
and Gamble, or used to do this for Macy's.
Macy's used to be headquarteredhere too.
so we're, we're able
Kenny (26:28):
We're able to kind of touch,
Khalil (26:30):
touch those areas.
And
Kenny (26:32):
And I think being in Cincinnati and, and all of us
being from Cincinnati, um,
Khalil (26:38):
or at
Kenny (26:39):
or at,
Khalil (26:39):
the
Kenny (26:39):
from the University of Cincinnati
Khalil (26:41):
kind of plays
Kenny (26:42):
into
Khalil (26:43):
of our image too is like, you know, kind of
Kenny (26:45):
kind of
Khalil (26:47):
junkyard dog types that, that just don't take note for an
answer.
So.
Kenny (26:51):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (26:52):
I think
Kenny (26:53):
I think that that's
Khalil (26:54):
of the
Kenny (26:54):
one of the things that, the biggest place that kind of
shaped us,
Khalil (26:57):
gave
Kenny (26:57):
gave us that resilience.
Khalil (26:59):
to say,
Kenny (26:59):
Say, okay,
Khalil (27:00):
we're in
Kenny (27:01):
we're in this place where we,
Khalil (27:02):
of
Kenny (27:02):
some of the top mind in the world,
Khalil (27:04):
doing this
Kenny (27:04):
this type of work.
Khalil (27:05):
listening to us.
Let's, you know, let's, let's
Kenny (27:09):
Lets try these people over here.
Khalil (27:11):
you want us to come to London?
Okay, we'll come to London andlaunch our product in London.
And, and we came that.
That's when it was like, whatare you guys doing in London?
And it, it, it kind
Kenny (27:23):
kind of, you know,
Khalil (27:24):
it is
Kenny (27:25):
definitely
Khalil (27:26):
of
Kenny (27:26):
just
Khalil (27:26):
resilience, man.
Like, I mean, I think a lot of
Kenny (27:29):
a lot of people
Khalil (27:30):
before we did.
And that I,
Kenny (27:34):
I, I, I
Khalil (27:35):
that
Kenny (27:35):
that that is part of like kind of being
Khalil (27:37):
in the city is, is definitely gotta show improve
because there's a lot of, youknow, talented people, working
for the corporations herelocally.
Kenny (27:45):
Yeah, I love that.
Um.
Yeah, like you said, there'ssome really big entities in a
city like Cincinnati, and thenyou gotta figure out how to get
on their radar.
And then once you have thoserelationships, it's really cool
to see how you can leverage thatfurther, to go after some really
cool opportunities.
last question that I wanna wrapup with you, and it's, um.
(28:09):
As you're looking at this, likethis, this whole kind of, I, I
look at niche fry.
You guys are like indexingculture in a lot of ways, right?
With all the, just all thedifferent feeds that you all
have is really cool.
You've showed me the platformbefore.
What's some of the like, orwhat's like the biggest aha
moment you've seen whileexploring the data in Nichefire?
Because I know you, I know youlook at a lot of trends across
(28:31):
different, really acrossdifferent countries, across
different groups, so I'm curiouslike what's the biggest aha, or
maybe it is some, a recent ahafor you moment that, that you
saw.
Khalil (28:41):
Let's
Kenny (28:41):
Let's kind of, let's kind of take a.
Khalil (28:43):
to it and, and talk about, and it's this make, make
believe element that, that showsup as a
Kenny (28:52):
That shows up.
Khalil (28:52):
sometimes because we operate in a, at a very, you
have to be very optimistic,right?
You don't get a lot of peoplebelieving in you.
You, you're, you're kind ofwalking this path lonely in, in
a lot of, in a lot of cases.
So one of the biggest ahamoments that I had is that our
(29:13):
tool is actually working.
and, and this is what I mean,right?
When you're ingesting millionsof data points from, you know,
many, many different channels,and you're using AI to make
sense of it, in those early daysof that.
You get a lot of noise, right?
(29:35):
You get a lot of noise, you geta lot of doubts in what you're,
what you're seeing within thetechnology.
So operating in that space of,you know, hey, in our beta it's
really noisy.
People can't make sense of thedata.
this really telling me The truthwas kind
Kenny (29:52):
Kind of where I had to operate as the main,
Khalil (29:55):
too.
where
Kenny (29:57):
where I developed
Khalil (29:58):
little bit of, um.
I, I developed a little bit of,you know, ident, a little
Kenny (30:06):
a little bit of an
Khalil (30:07):
crisis, right?
If, if, if you
Kenny (30:09):
identity
Khalil (30:09):
right?
I
Kenny (30:10):
right.
I had,
Khalil (30:10):
had,
Kenny (30:11):
um.
Khalil (30:12):
syndrome and the, the, the fears that I
Kenny (30:16):
that I had was that the data
Khalil (30:17):
telling me the truth and that
Kenny (30:20):
that wasn't the case
Khalil (30:21):
just noisy.
So as we continue to iterate anddevelop and get our
Kenny (30:25):
get our model more accurate,
Khalil (30:27):
It was able to pull in
Kenny (30:28):
more accurate data.
Khalil (30:30):
And
Kenny (30:30):
And one, one
Khalil (30:31):
one area
Kenny (30:32):
area
Khalil (30:32):
I, I
Kenny (30:33):
that I, I saw I was doing a project
Khalil (30:36):
where I was, look, I was looking at the impacts of
inflation consumers and I
Kenny (30:43):
And I kept seeing it
Khalil (30:45):
pop
Kenny (30:45):
pop up like
Khalil (30:46):
seen the normal
Kenny (30:47):
normal
Khalil (30:47):
up of
Kenny (30:48):
truth,
Khalil (30:48):
prices, skyrocketing inflation.
Consumers, you know, there therewas this
Kenny (30:54):
this
Khalil (30:55):
food
Kenny (30:56):
food,
Khalil (30:56):
right?
Kenny (30:56):
right where people were
Khalil (30:58):
willingly
Kenny (30:59):
buying.
Khalil (30:59):
ugly fruits and, you, I don't know how many
Kenny (31:03):
How many brands,
Khalil (31:04):
off.
You can buy like the, the cutuppieces of lunch, meat, or bacon,
right?
Instead of buying a full pack,right?
You all these things kind ofhappening because of inflation
and you had normal thingshappening too, like people
switching from name brands toprivate labels or store, store.
And stuff like that.
But then I kept seeing thisYouTuber brand trend pop up in,
(31:27):
in the data, and it,
Kenny (31:28):
And it happened across three different dashboards that
I built
Khalil (31:31):
monitoring.
Kenny (31:32):
So I
Khalil (31:32):
I immediately, you know what, you know, said it was
noise, right?
Until
Kenny (31:37):
so I, I kind of
Khalil (31:38):
what, one
Kenny (31:39):
with one of my advisors
Khalil (31:40):
said,
Kenny (31:40):
said, no, it's, it's a lot more here than
Khalil (31:42):
think we're given credit
Kenny (31:44):
to.
Khalil (31:44):
Let's dive into this a little bit more.
And what
Kenny (31:47):
What we found was that consumers, despite
Khalil (31:50):
The
Kenny (31:50):
a
Khalil (31:51):
situations for a lot of
Kenny (31:52):
lot of people
Khalil (31:53):
if
Kenny (31:54):
there was a.
Khalil (31:55):
YouTuber or a streamer led brand that came on the scene
like prime or feasts or lunchsleeves, right?
Like these, these things willpop up and then the fans will go
crazy for these and say like,I'm gonna buy this at premium
price because it's coming froma, a source that I love and I'm
a fan of, right?
(32:16):
I really count on seeing thingslike that happening.
And I communicated this to someof our customers and things like
that.
And lo and behold, maybe a monthor two after I seen that trend,
it
Kenny (32:29):
There's a huge barage
Khalil (32:31):
I mean, I think Logan
Kenny (32:32):
call
Khalil (32:34):
somebody
Kenny (32:34):
somebody else.
Khalil (32:35):
Lunchable, there's a,
Kenny (32:37):
there's a
Khalil (32:37):
of
Kenny (32:38):
bunch of other,
Khalil (32:39):
Things
Kenny (32:39):
happening.
I think it was called.
Khalil (32:41):
Year
Kenny (32:42):
Your way
Khalil (32:43):
Away,
Kenny (32:44):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (32:44):
a market,
Kenny (32:45):
Market's a market way.
Khalil (32:47):
strawberry, like one strawberry for like 25 bucks.
Kenny (32:50):
That's crazy.
Khalil (32:51):
And they
Kenny (32:51):
And they had like all
Khalil (32:53):
smoothies for like$45, tequilas and coffees and like
all this
Kenny (32:59):
all
Khalil (32:59):
happening.
Or influencer
Kenny (33:02):
coffee and stuff like that happen, and it was just
kind of like this garage thing.
Khalil (33:05):
like,
Kenny (33:05):
was like, oh, wow.
Khalil (33:07):
my
Kenny (33:07):
my aha.
Khalil (33:08):
okay,
Kenny (33:09):
we're on the.
Khalil (33:10):
with this.
This is how
Kenny (33:11):
How I
Khalil (33:13):
within the platform and start
Kenny (33:15):
talking about
Khalil (33:16):
a little bit more
Kenny (33:17):
more louder.
Khalil (33:17):
because it's working.
that was
Kenny (33:20):
That was like my moment
Khalil (33:22):
Now
Kenny (33:22):
now.
We've had some moments in themarket.
Khalil (33:24):
well, which I, you know, we could save those stories for
another time,
Kenny (33:29):
Yeah, for sure.
Khalil (33:30):
We've helped inspire,
Kenny (33:32):
products.
Khalil (33:33):
we helped inspire, products that are on the shelves
now.
Products that are being made,marketing campaigns, all types
of stuff with our, but literallyseeing that one signal and being
able to communicate it.
We did a webinar about it andeverything, was like my big
moment where I was like, oh,right.
Now I don't have to be fearfulof showing this off.
(33:55):
Now I don't have to be fearfulof, Misrepresenting or, or you
know, the AI hallucinating oranything like that, like I
didn't have to deal with that.
I could talk straight facts.
Kenny (34:07):
Appreciate that.
And so in closing, I just wannasay, Khalil, thank you for being
on the platform.
You shared a lot about yourjourney, what you're building
with Nichefire.
Can you real quickly tell folkshow to stay tapped in with the
brand, with you?
What's the best route to, to seeall things that are going on in
your world?
Khalil (34:23):
Yeah, for sure.
and I appreciate, appreciate youhaving me, man.
It's always a pleasure.
it, it's very easy.
Reach out to us via LinkedIn.
if you could provide, our, ourLinkedIn, personal link.
Well, LinkedIn as well, as wellas Michael and Stevens.
we, we got three founders here,so it's really easy to kind of
(34:44):
get in, in contact with one ofus.
and then you always can checkout our blog.
we got a newsletter drop in nextweek.
www.nichefire.com is the website
Kenny (34:56):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (34:57):
LinkedIn will be the best way to kind of contact this
person.
Kenny (35:00):
Appreciate you for that.
Khalil, for those listening in,thank you for tuning into
another great episode of TheBeyond Normal Podcast.
Appreciate it.
Welcome, welcome everybody to another great
episode of the Beyond NormalPodcast, where you all know,
every founder story is a journeyworth exploring.
Today we have a very specialguest for you all, a chief
strategist, somebody who isfocusing on culture that is a
heavy word in today's time Theyare, Khalil El Amin, who is the
(00:54):
co-founder of Nichefire.
For those of you who are notfamiliar with the Nichefire
Tool, it's a tool that focuseson understanding cultural trends
at any moment across a wholehost of, platforms that we all
know and use, and it justremoves that heavy lifting for
users.
So without further ado, let'sbring Khalil to the stage so we
can get this conversation going.
(01:16):
How's it going, Khalil?
Khalil (01:17):
It is going well man.
I appreciate you having me.
Kenny (01:20):
Yes, for sure.
you, I had the, the, the luxuryof, connecting with you, in the
amazing city of Cincinnati.
the, the, you were, you showedme a good time.
You, you let me know like whatthe tech scene is looking like
in that, that that beautifulcity.
so I appreciate you for, youknow, Taking me in, with the
(01:43):
brotherly love for sure, when Iwas on that visit.
and we've been connecting eversince, and I just had to have
you on the platform, for theamazing work that you're doing.
so I, I just wanted to sayappreciate you for coming on the
platform.
Let's start out first questionthough.
Before you were working onNichefire, tell us a little bit
about your story.
You know, what you were doingwith your life.
(02:04):
What was your life focus beforebeing a, taking that gamble on
yourself and, and being afounder?
Khalil (02:10):
Oh God.
Kenny (02:11):
That's
Khalil (02:11):
a, that's actually an excellent question it it.
Always comes up.
I was a, I was an athlete, sofor most of Most of my life
working towards, be becoming aprofessional athlete was, my
main goal.
So, after high school, I, I, afull, athletic scholarship.
(02:33):
I had a had a lot of choices.
chose to stay in Cincinnati andI played for the University of
Cincinnati where, was able to,win a couple championships do a
whole lot.
So really before all of thetech, entrepreneur, you know,
stuff that I started to pick upon, it was all about football,
(02:56):
man.
So, waking up early, working outprotein shakes, you know what I
mean?
the, normal athletic, routinesand lifestyles.
What, what I was living intoand, um.
I made it, well, I, I got pickedup as a free agent after
college, with the ArizonaCardinals, but I got cut, I got
(03:16):
cut in mini camps, so I neverreally even got a chance to get
my professional career going.
Now, I did play some arenafootball, couple years after
that to kind of get football outof my system, but, that's kind
of where it started with for meis, is just kind of figuring out
how to reinvent myself.
Um.
(03:37):
And then naturally, father is anentrepreneur.
My, my father was anentrepreneur, successful
entrepreneur here in the city.
so so I went, you know, startedworking with the family
business, but quickly found thatI didn't didn't.
too much.
I jumped into, where was thatenterprise rental car.
(04:01):
I did the whole, you know, they,they hire athletes, they love
athletes there.
So I did enterprise for a littlebit, and then I moved to B2B
sales, at Xerox.
So, for a Xerox company.
Got a chance to get that goodsales training and, learned how
to go door to door.
selling copiers.
(04:22):
that was, That was, that waskind of my start.
like the corporate side.
And at And at that same time,learning, You know how to how to
become the, that I that I'mtoday mm-hmm.
that I was
Kenny (04:35):
Working.
Khalil (04:36):
well.
Kenny (04:37):
I appreciate that background.
you closing this out with,selling door to door, that.
That is a, that is a path tolearning how to do sales.
rather, that's not a greatexperience for most people that
I, I've talked to who go downthe path of door to door sales.
(04:58):
But you definitely, everybody Italk to, they know they have
some takeaways from thatexperience that they leveraged
for their whole career.
So I will say that much aboutthe door-to-door sales
Khalil (05:07):
Just, Just literally literally think about like
knocking on residential homes
Kenny (05:11):
homes door to door.
Khalil (05:13):
but business.
Kenny (05:16):
Yep.
So, the more,
Khalil (05:18):
more, more, you gotta be light on your feet, right?
You gotta be able to kind oftalk and, and deal with people's
objections and build up some,you know, pretty tough skin.
Kenny (05:31):
You know?
Mm-hmm.
Rather quickly.
So, I think, as you gave usthat, that breakdown there, a, a
common theme is, like you said,you've been.
You worked, for your, your, yourfamily business for a while,
like there's some legacy there.
I'm, I'm curious, like what werethe conversations like, shout
(05:54):
out to pops?
Like what were the conversationslike when you, you had to tell
them like, Hey, this isn't forme because.
You know, when we think aboutsomebody starting a business and
then you have it, you hand itover to your kids, there's this
ro romanticizing of that idea.
But that is not always the case.
(06:15):
So how did that conversation gofor you?
Khalil (06:19):
it was really hard.
it, it really changed me and mydad's relationship too.
as a little boy, I was likestuck to my dad's hip, right?
I did everything he did.
I always tried to go to workwith him and, and all those.
So naturally, I guess.
you build up some type of like,affinity for that thought,
(06:39):
right?
That, you know, someone's gonnatake over this one day and, and
naturally be my, my oldest or myoldest son or the, the, the
child that shows the mostinterest in the business.
And that was me.
I think the, the issue wasthere, there were a couple
different issues, right?
(07:00):
entrepreneurs, and, and youknow, just as much as me.
Um.
ups and downs, right?
My father ran a, commerciallandscaping business, did
really, really well for many,many years, but right Right
around.
where I was coming out ofcollege is where he was having
the most issues with thisbusiness.
(07:21):
So back to the business at thattime wasn't ideal for, a, a new
college grad, and it was 2008,so we're in the
Kenny (07:32):
Oh yeah.
Khalil (07:34):
I mean, I don't know how many of my friends end up going
to Korea to go teach and stuff
Kenny (07:39):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (07:40):
No
Kenny (07:40):
No one had a job.
Khalil (07:41):
what?
They graduated from college,with, like, I'm not, I'm not
Kenny (07:45):
I'm not,
Khalil (07:46):
one,
Kenny (07:46):
one
Khalil (07:47):
few people had a job
Kenny (07:49):
a job that.
Khalil (07:50):
with their degrees at that time.
So for me to jump intoentrepreneurship, that was like
a, you know, I graduated withmarketing and entrepreneurship
degree, so.
I
Kenny (08:01):
I got
Khalil (08:02):
the
Kenny (08:02):
the rough part of entrepreneurship, very, very
early.
Khalil (08:06):
By kind of
Kenny (08:06):
Kind of seeing
Khalil (08:07):
my
Kenny (08:07):
all my dad
Khalil (08:08):
was dealing with
Kenny (08:09):
with that
Khalil (08:10):
because of the
Kenny (08:11):
of the stress and
Khalil (08:13):
inconsistency inconsist of, you know,
Kenny (08:17):
revenue coming
Khalil (08:18):
like
Kenny (08:18):
back.
Khalil (08:19):
it was
Kenny (08:19):
It was hard.
Khalil (08:20):
dad to
Kenny (08:20):
dad
Khalil (08:21):
kind of
Kenny (08:21):
manage
Khalil (08:22):
that same entrepreneur.
He had always been.
I hadn't seen him, tread water,
Kenny (08:28):
Mm.
Khalil (08:28):
makes sense.
Kenny (08:29):
Yeah.
Khalil (08:30):
So it
Kenny (08:30):
So it became,
Khalil (08:31):
for me.
And at the
Kenny (08:33):
at the time, you know,
Khalil (08:34):
I had a
Kenny (08:34):
I, a girlfriend, I had a child on the way.
I had to make that decision.
Khalil (08:38):
was
Kenny (08:39):
It was hard talking
Khalil (08:39):
to my
Kenny (08:40):
to my dad about,
Khalil (08:41):
but we talked and he didn't
Kenny (08:44):
he didn't
Khalil (08:45):
but he dealt with it.
And, it was the
Kenny (08:50):
it was a
Khalil (08:51):
thing
Kenny (08:51):
thing for me at that time because what I was able to
Khalil (08:54):
was
Kenny (08:54):
twist c.
Khalil (08:56):
at scale how.
Kenny (08:58):
Scale.
Khalil (08:59):
Surviving businesses running right.
that, training program atEnterprise is world
Kenny (09:07):
world class.
Right?
Khalil (09:08):
can, you can talk to
Kenny (09:09):
Talk.
Anyone
Khalil (09:11):
and marketing, and leadership and they'll tell you
like some of the programs or, orthings that, that try to be,
that companies try to
Kenny (09:20):
Replic.
Khalil (09:21):
that's always one
Kenny (09:22):
One of.
Khalil (09:22):
and it's because they do a really good job of helping
you, like down a
Kenny (09:27):
with,
Khalil (09:28):
down to the spreadsheets.
I mean, like everything
Kenny (09:32):
matters, what your working, in that rental,
Khalil (09:35):
business.
So, I took
Kenny (09:38):
I took it as an opportunity.
Khalil (09:39):
and, you
Kenny (09:40):
You know, I, I hated to raise my dad's hard, but
Khalil (09:43):
it as an
Kenny (09:43):
an opportunity
Khalil (09:44):
to go
Kenny (09:44):
go be right, still learn more.
Khalil (09:48):
And,
Kenny (09:48):
all those things that I learned.
Khalil (09:50):
working in corporate America were pools that I was
able to kind of bring.
Kenny (09:55):
My,
Khalil (09:55):
my repertoire when I,
Kenny (09:57):
I jumped out.
Khalil (09:58):
And did enterprise, or
Kenny (09:59):
I first
Khalil (10:00):
entrepreneurship on my
Kenny (10:03):
on my own.
So, it, it was a toughconversation.
Khalil (10:06):
changed me and my dad's
Kenny (10:08):
my dad's relationship.
Khalil (10:09):
I don't
Kenny (10:11):
I don't think he presented for it, but
Khalil (10:15):
it was
Kenny (10:15):
it was definitely something that happened.
Khalil (10:17):
And I think that,
Kenny (10:18):
I think that,
Khalil (10:19):
Every son and
Kenny (10:21):
Father
Khalil (10:21):
relationship
Kenny (10:22):
a relationship that exists across that, that path.
Khalil (10:25):
point,
Kenny (10:25):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (10:27):
for sure.
Kenny (10:28):
Yeah.
That's, like you said, it, itis, it's bound to happen like it
should happen.
Having those like conversationsand there should be this
transition, it's just not gonnabe easy for, as I can only
imagine, like going to my dadand he's got this plan.
And I am like, nah, I'm notgoing with that plan,
Khalil (10:49):
It, it was one of those things where it was like, dad, I
got, I, I hear your plan, but Ithink your plan is broken.
Kenny (10:58):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (10:58):
So it's like, well, will you mean my plan is broken?
What
Kenny (11:03):
Yeah.
Khalil (11:04):
what do you know?
And I didn't understand thatpushback then, as much as I
understand it now.
Kenny (11:14):
For sure.
Khalil (11:15):
However, I still don't think I was wrong, right?
That I was wrong in trying tochange the way he was looking at
his business.
But the fact that he didn't wantto, I, I think, that gave me
enough understanding that I hadto change what I was doing
regardless.
Kenny (11:31):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (11:32):
That was the hard part, is like making the decision to.
That's gonna hurt someone thatyou love.
but it's the best decision foryourself.
Kenny (11:41):
Yeah, it
Khalil (11:41):
it kind of made
Kenny (11:42):
kind of made me feel selfish, but be selfish
sometimes.
Every founder's a littleselfish, man.
Khalil (11:48):
yes, man Yeah,
Kenny (11:49):
You gotta just be honest.
So I want to transition a littlebit, right?
So you, you had the, you, you,you knew you wanted to take this
gamble on yourself is what Ilike to call it, for folks.
So I'm curious.
You know, what was that fir Likeyour business is around culture
now, right?
Like, what was like that first?
(12:10):
How did this idea come together?
Like what was that first momentlike?
For, for, for Nichefire?
Because this is a broad topic tomost people don't say, Hey, I
want to have a culture tool, aculture solution.
Khalil (12:23):
we launched Nichefire back in 2017, and, and
originally it was a competitiveanalysis tool.
what we, what we did was, let meback
Kenny (12:36):
Back
Khalil (12:36):
right?
Let me tell you how
Kenny (12:38):
how
Khalil (12:39):
my founders.
Because this doesn't, thisdoesn't happen, and this kind of
plays into the why.
Why would you keep
Kenny (12:47):
you.
Khalil (12:47):
something if you don't?
You know, just bear with me.
So I'm selling copiers, right?
First year, B2B rep, salesmanager comes to the bullpen and
he says, Hey, I bought ticketsto this networking event.
Does anyone want to go?
Kenny (13:06):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (13:06):
I'm like, two, three weeks in
Kenny (13:10):
Free food and drink.
Right.
I'm assuming,
Khalil (13:12):
Free food and drink.
Kenny (13:13):
oh.
Khalil (13:15):
you know, sales manager, he's new.
one's giving him the energythat, that he wants.
see.
As a opportunity to, to,'causehe was cool.
I liked, I liked him.
he was a super cool manager, soI'm like, nah, I'll go right
now.
Everyone is just crickets,right?
(13:35):
No one wants to go ev like, noone even looks up from their
computer.
I'm like, Hey, let me go to thisnetworking event.
So we get there as a speednetworking event, right?
red flag number one already.
Weird, right?
All right, let's go through thetables.
Now.
I'm peeping the scene and it, itis a lot of like, you know,
(13:56):
older women, older people andthey, they were real familiar
with how they were pitching.
Like, Hey, let me watch, do youwanna come watch my video?
It was a bunch of networkmarketing people.
Kenny (14:10):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (14:11):
now the light bulb goes off.
This is why no one wanted tocome.
Everyone knew this was a bunch
Kenny (14:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (14:19):
I look,
Kenny (14:20):
look, I look at
Khalil (14:20):
the room
Kenny (14:20):
the room
Khalil (14:21):
to sit next to the
Kenny (14:22):
person,
Khalil (14:22):
least likely to pitch me.
There's a gentleman
Kenny (14:25):
gentleman
Khalil (14:25):
pfo, right?
I sit next to
Kenny (14:28):
next to them,
Khalil (14:29):
You go to uc or you went to uc?
He said, yeah, alumni.
Me too.
and this
Kenny (14:36):
person,
Khalil (14:37):
right?
So, halfway through it you
Kenny (14:41):
through you get, you know,
Khalil (14:42):
all
Kenny (14:42):
all these network.
Khalil (14:43):
teams getting up, selling stuff.
So
Kenny (14:45):
So, hey,
Khalil (14:46):
let's go
Kenny (14:46):
let's go get coffee.
Khalil (14:47):
complete trash.
it,
Kenny (14:51):
it, it was, it literally,
Khalil (14:53):
to happen because at that time, I'm learning
Kenny (14:55):
I'm learning.
Khalil (14:55):
digital marketing.
I can't execute on the design.
Michael was designer and.
know, partial coder, right?
And we were like, Hey, why don'twe join together and like, just
start something.
So a week after meeting at thatevent, him and I started an
agency and that was a realbusiness that I started.
So fast forward to, fast
Kenny (15:19):
fast forward to
Khalil (15:19):
know, kind of getting to Nichefire.
We
Kenny (15:22):
started in 20,
Khalil (15:25):
17.
this is after we shut down theagency and everything.
We
Kenny (15:29):
wanted to build
Khalil (15:30):
that leveraged social
Kenny (15:33):
media,
Khalil (15:33):
AI to, to
Kenny (15:35):
to provide a
Khalil (15:36):
a cultural, or excuse me, a, competitive
Kenny (15:39):
kind of analysis.
Khalil (15:40):
and doing this
Kenny (15:41):
This work.
Khalil (15:42):
And, you know, we kind of built this tool out.
It, it got really, really
Kenny (15:47):
Really good.
Khalil (15:48):
and stuff like that from our peers and testing and stuff
like that.
And we were, we were able to getone customer, one big customer
from it, and we just kind oflanded, expanded with that
customer to survive for a longtime.
But the pain wasn't painfulenough in the market for that
tool.
it wasn't until the, you know,the one of the departments we
(16:09):
were selling into came to usand, and they told us that, you
know, they thought
Kenny (16:13):
They thought our tool was
Khalil (16:14):
really
Kenny (16:15):
really awesome.
Khalil (16:15):
is like market
Kenny (16:16):
Market research
Khalil (16:17):
So we're excited.
that
Kenny (16:19):
that
Khalil (16:20):
thinks our tool is good and said, but, but our
Kenny (16:22):
But our problem isn't really the kind of analysis
thing.
It's us understanding, thoseunknown unknowns.
Khalil (16:29):
right?
We have these
Kenny (16:30):
Social
Khalil (16:31):
tools.
We have
Kenny (16:32):
have these,
Khalil (16:32):
know,
Kenny (16:33):
you know, workflows
Khalil (16:34):
this information from consumers, but we
Kenny (16:36):
don't have a way
Khalil (16:38):
what to search for when we don't know
Kenny (16:40):
that.
Khalil (16:41):
So if you guys could build a tool that did that, that
would be golden for us.
So kind of went back to thedrawing board and, you know,
luckily Michael was able to kindof think, think, think about
ways and confirm ways that wepulled in the data and, and if,
you know, through datascientists, if we could make
these assumptions around, youknow, unknown unknowns and, and
(17:04):
culture.
And that
Kenny (17:06):
That literally was the.
Khalil (17:07):
of our, our first pivot into this cultural listening
tool.
Um.
We spent, we spun up a MVPvalidated with individuals, and
it it got the attention that wealways wanted.
when That's when we knew, tokind kind of take this move
forward.
Now, Now, on the personal side,what what resonated for me was
(17:30):
that I grew up in a veryculturally diverse, world,
right?
My, my parents were Muslim,we're only Only Muslim in our
Kenny (17:39):
are higher family.
Khalil (17:41):
of my family's Christian.
Right.
So I always
Kenny (17:44):
I always had that dynamic there.
Khalil (17:45):
neighborhood I grew
Kenny (17:46):
I grew up in,
Khalil (17:47):
and the school that I went to had a lot of Jewish
Jewish, I grew, I grew up grewup with a lot of Jewish kids
kids.
and learning about Hanukkah and,and some of their traditions.
and then I
Kenny (17:58):
I always like this
Khalil (18:00):
nerdy athlete type as
Kenny (18:02):
as well,
Khalil (18:03):
So so I've always kind of had a chameleon in how how.
with individuals.
So the, the fact that we landedinto this cultural.
Technology, it was
Kenny (18:13):
It was like.
Khalil (18:14):
fake.
Right?
So, I hope that answers thequestion I get.
I.
Kenny (18:19):
No, it definitely does, man.
Like, you're, you're, you're,you, you, you, you really went
through the whole like, genesis,right?
Like that, that thought, likesometimes that can be like a
trick question for somebody toask you.
Like you said, like.
Like, what was the first ideathat you all pulled together for
the company?
Like, and you gave me the fullstory, so I appreciate that.
(18:39):
Like I saw the movie play out,I, as you were talking about it,
and I think that's reallypowerful because like as I
mentioned at the top of thecall, right, every I.
Founder story, right?
It's a journey.
Like it's a movie that you, youcan share as much as you want,
and then it's up to us as thelisteners.
I'm a listener in that case asyou were telling that story.
So I appreciate you sharing alittle bit about your
(19:01):
background.
You, you threw in a word thereas you were explaining it
though.
you mentioned it first.
I didn't.
Folks, we talk about it a lot.
The word is called AI, or theterm is called AI now.
Right?
Khalil (19:13):
Oh
Kenny (19:13):
So I'm, I'm curious, like how do you keep.
All right.
How do you keep the work you'redoing grounded in like the human
element, right?
When you're building somethingthat has a focus on AI and
there's like this, how do I getto the perfect answer in the, on
the back of people's minds?
(19:34):
I'm curious, like what, what'syour thoughts around that?
Khalil (19:36):
So when we, you know, the, the fact that, you know,
almost 10 years ago we wereentertaining AI, that, that that
word was me.
key And reinventing or just kindof burning my ships and saying,
Hey, I'm gonna do this techthing now.
Right?
(19:56):
Because what I what I saw 10years ago.
Wasn't the threatening side thata lot of people think about when
it comes to AI.
I was thinking about more of thepractical applications of the
AI, how it helps people dothings better.
Right.
I've I.
like the AI should empower teamsto help them get more meaningful
(20:21):
work faster, and really what theNichefire tool, even when it was
a competitive analysis tool,that's what it did.
At its core is that it madesmarter, it made smart people
smarter because it cut down onthe research side.
(20:41):
That would have to, that's thatone would have to do when you're
doing some type of competitiveanalysis, right?
So So instead of, you know, toone to two maybe even three
people within a team or a cohortworking on a on a project,
around understanding.
a a, a particular element youthrow so AI tool, Now now you.
(21:04):
added what's, what seems to be adata scientist, a couple data
scientists, a couple Coupleanalysts, right?
right?
It it seemed to kind of supersupercharged far groups so that
they that they spend less timedigging and, and trying to
figure out out what's happening,and more more time on reacting
(21:25):
from.
the information.
Mm-hmm.
So now, fast fast forward thatto now cultural listing
technology.
We're providing businesses thethe business to cut cut through
80 to to hour.
per project, right?
Months that these teams would bestuck doing.
(21:46):
So what What that means is thatMr.
customer here.
spends almost the entire monthtrying to understand one element
of culture.
Now they can understand manyelements of culture at one time
and spend more time ideation,planning, strategic, you know,
strategic, having thosestrategic conversations with the
(22:09):
brand.
market research, tuning tuningall those areas, with beforehand
So again, and like, I think Ithink when we first started, a
lot of people were talk talkingabout AI because the fear of it
taking over, taking someone'sjob.
And and now we're in this eraof, you know, AI as my as my
(22:31):
partner, AI as I is my friend.
which really helps out Nichefirebecause now when we're selling
in, it's not a lot of pushbackof, oh, I'm gonna lose my job.
Or This is gonna, people seethis as a tool to kind of help
them advance their career.
Kenny (22:48):
I love that.
Yeah.
I think it is the, the tool'shere to stay like you, like you
said.
So it's like, like why not getthe most of it?
Make yourself that much moreefficient.
I think that's a powerful way togo about it.
whether somebody's a smallbusiness owner, you know,
they're, they got a business onMain Street, or they're building
a tech company, like what youall are building with Nichefire.
(23:09):
Like there's a need for AI nowto.
To scale up, you threw somethingin there around CPG, consumer,
good companies.
Right.
I, I'm curious, like with youbeing, and you and your team
being based in Cincinnati, howhas that shaped how you're
growing the business?
'cause I know there is like abig CPG focus in, in Cincinnati
(23:30):
and the surrounding area, so I'mcurious, like, how has being in
that, in that city, in thatarea, led to some opportunities
or, or maybe forced you to lookin other places?
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (24:09):
If I'm not mistaken, what you What you have also
behind that is some of the fromthe top you know, data.
I don't, I don't wanna call'emlike data warehouses, but like,
data, the the top, people likeusing data.
Leveraging data, right?
So we got like got 84 50, whichwhich is essentially, Kroger's.
(24:35):
You know, they house It has allthe program data and and many,
many, many other retail data,data data, but have you have
some of the, top top mind in thespace of of working working with
data and, and data data andanalytics and stuff like that
that come come with that aswell.
So So being here, and beingbeing connected to the you know,
(24:56):
the startup like that, it italmost, um.
It was it was hard.
because being that the, those,you know, those young Young guys
that are trying try to do thisin this space, these giants that
have been doing it, you don'treally get heard immediately.
So what we had to do is reallyfigure out, where do where do we
(25:20):
make that, where do we providethat most?
Right?
Right?
and it was specifically thesocial intelligence, Right.
right?
So we found the proof thatliterally how.
Social top social intelligentpracti practitioners from all
from all over the world was athere's a growing group as well.
(25:41):
we we spent at like our lastdollars to scholar to be a part
of this cohort where we went andinspiring how talk we do do and
how how to how to build up thevalue of social intelligence
stuff and stuff like that.
So that helped us.
You know, kind of, it, it, ithelped Helped us get out in
(26:02):
front of us that wasn't wasn't,yet.
And
Kenny (26:06):
mm-hmm.
Khalil (26:07):
we
Kenny (26:07):
We had to leave,
Khalil (26:08):
to do
Kenny (26:09):
do that.
But what happens
Khalil (26:10):
after
Kenny (26:11):
that
Khalil (26:11):
the
Kenny (26:12):
is
Khalil (26:12):
Right
Kenny (26:13):
now
Khalil (26:14):
we are
Kenny (26:14):
we're able to kind of get those
Khalil (26:15):
here locally.
We're able to
Kenny (26:16):
talk, those
Khalil (26:17):
top data scientists at, you know, x,
Kenny (26:20):
X, Y, Z
Khalil (26:21):
or that used
Kenny (26:22):
that used to work.
Khalil (26:23):
and Gamble, or used to do this for Macy's.
Macy's used to be headquarteredhere too.
so we're, we're able
Kenny (26:28):
We're able to kind of touch,
Khalil (26:30):
touch those areas.
And
Kenny (26:32):
And I think being in Cincinnati and, and all of us
being from Cincinnati, um,
Khalil (26:38):
or at
Kenny (26:39):
or at,
Khalil (26:39):
the
Kenny (26:39):
from the University of Cincinnati
Khalil (26:41):
kind of plays
Kenny (26:42):
into
Khalil (26:43):
of our image too is like, you know, kind of
Kenny (26:45):
kind of
Khalil (26:47):
junkyard dog types that, that just don't take note for an
answer.
So.
Kenny (26:51):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (26:52):
I think
Kenny (26:53):
I think that that's
Khalil (26:54):
of the
Kenny (26:54):
one of the things that, the biggest place that kind of
shaped us,
Khalil (26:57):
gave
Kenny (26:57):
gave us that resilience.
Khalil (26:59):
to say,
Kenny (26:59):
Say, okay,
Khalil (27:00):
we're in
Kenny (27:01):
we're in this place where we,
Khalil (27:02):
of
Kenny (27:02):
some of the top mind in the world,
Khalil (27:04):
doing this
Kenny (27:04):
this type of work.
Khalil (27:05):
listening to us.
Let's, you know, let's, let's
Kenny (27:09):
Lets try these people over here.
Khalil (27:11):
you want us to come to London?
Okay, we'll come to London andlaunch our product in London.
And, and we came that.
That's when it was like, whatare you guys doing in London?
And it, it, it kind
Kenny (27:23):
kind of, you know,
Khalil (27:24):
it is
Kenny (27:25):
definitely
Khalil (27:26):
of
Kenny (27:26):
just
Khalil (27:26):
resilience, man.
Like, I mean, I think a lot of
Kenny (27:29):
a lot of people
Khalil (27:30):
before we did.
And that I,
Kenny (27:34):
I, I, I
Khalil (27:35):
that
Kenny (27:35):
that that is part of like kind of being
Khalil (27:37):
in the city is, is definitely gotta show improve
because there's a lot of, youknow, talented people, working
for the corporations herelocally.
Kenny (27:45):
Yeah, I love that.
Um.
Yeah, like you said, there'ssome really big entities in a
city like Cincinnati, and thenyou gotta figure out how to get
on their radar.
And then once you have thoserelationships, it's really cool
to see how you can leverage thatfurther, to go after some really
cool opportunities.
last question that I wanna wrapup with you, and it's, um.
(28:09):
As you're looking at this, likethis, this whole kind of, I, I
look at niche fry.
You guys are like indexingculture in a lot of ways, right?
With all the, just all thedifferent feeds that you all
have is really cool.
You've showed me the platformbefore.
What's some of the like, orwhat's like the biggest aha
moment you've seen whileexploring the data in Nichefire?
Because I know you, I know youlook at a lot of trends across
(28:31):
different, really acrossdifferent countries, across
different groups, so I'm curiouslike what's the biggest aha, or
maybe it is some, a recent ahafor you moment that, that you
saw.
Khalil (28:41):
Let's
Kenny (28:41):
Let's kind of, let's kind of take a.
Khalil (28:43):
to it and, and talk about, and it's this make, make
believe element that, that showsup as a
Kenny (28:52):
That shows up.
Khalil (28:52):
sometimes because we operate in a, at a very, you
have to be very optimistic,right?
You don't get a lot of peoplebelieving in you.
You, you're, you're kind ofwalking this path lonely in, in
a lot of, in a lot of cases.
So one of the biggest ahamoments that I had is that our
(29:13):
tool is actually working.
and, and this is what I mean,right?
When you're ingesting millionsof data points from, you know,
many, many different channels,and you're using AI to make
sense of it, in those early daysof that.
You get a lot of noise, right?
(29:35):
You get a lot of noise, you geta lot of doubts in what you're,
what you're seeing within thetechnology.
So operating in that space of,you know, hey, in our beta it's
really noisy.
People can't make sense of thedata.
this really telling me The truthwas kind
Kenny (29:52):
Kind of where I had to operate as the main,
Khalil (29:55):
too.
where
Kenny (29:57):
where I developed
Khalil (29:58):
little bit of, um.
I, I developed a little bit of,you know, ident, a little
Kenny (30:06):
a little bit of an
Khalil (30:07):
crisis, right?
If, if, if you
Kenny (30:09):
identity
Khalil (30:09):
right?
I
Kenny (30:10):
right.
I had,
Khalil (30:10):
had,
Kenny (30:11):
um.
Khalil (30:12):
syndrome and the, the, the fears that I
Kenny (30:16):
that I had was that the data
Khalil (30:17):
telling me the truth and that
Kenny (30:20):
that wasn't the case
Khalil (30:21):
just noisy.
So as we continue to iterate anddevelop and get our
Kenny (30:25):
get our model more accurate,
Khalil (30:27):
It was able to pull in
Kenny (30:28):
more accurate data.
Khalil (30:30):
And
Kenny (30:30):
And one, one
Khalil (30:31):
one area
Kenny (30:32):
area
Khalil (30:32):
I, I
Kenny (30:33):
that I, I saw I was doing a project
Khalil (30:36):
where I was, look, I was looking at the impacts of
inflation consumers and I
Kenny (30:43):
And I kept seeing it
Khalil (30:45):
pop
Kenny (30:45):
pop up like
Khalil (30:46):
seen the normal
Kenny (30:47):
normal
Khalil (30:47):
up of
Kenny (30:48):
truth,
Khalil (30:48):
prices, skyrocketing inflation.
Consumers, you know, there therewas this
Kenny (30:54):
this
Khalil (30:55):
food
Kenny (30:56):
food,
Khalil (30:56):
right?
Kenny (30:56):
right where people were
Khalil (30:58):
willingly
Kenny (30:59):
buying.
Khalil (30:59):
ugly fruits and, you, I don't know how many
Kenny (31:03):
How many brands,
Khalil (31:04):
off.
You can buy like the, the cutuppieces of lunch, meat, or bacon,
right?
Instead of buying a full pack,right?
You all these things kind ofhappening because of inflation
and you had normal thingshappening too, like people
switching from name brands toprivate labels or store, store.
And stuff like that.
But then I kept seeing thisYouTuber brand trend pop up in,
(31:27):
in the data, and it,
Kenny (31:28):
And it happened across three different dashboards that
I built
Khalil (31:31):
monitoring.
Kenny (31:32):
So I
Khalil (31:32):
I immediately, you know what, you know, said it was
noise, right?
Until
Kenny (31:37):
so I, I kind of
Khalil (31:38):
what, one
Kenny (31:39):
with one of my advisors
Khalil (31:40):
said,
Kenny (31:40):
said, no, it's, it's a lot more here than
Khalil (31:42):
think we're given credit
Kenny (31:44):
to.
Khalil (31:44):
Let's dive into this a little bit more.
And what
Kenny (31:47):
What we found was that consumers, despite
Khalil (31:50):
The
Kenny (31:50):
a
Khalil (31:51):
situations for a lot of
Kenny (31:52):
lot of people
Khalil (31:53):
if
Kenny (31:54):
there was a.
Khalil (31:55):
YouTuber or a streamer led brand that came on the scene
like prime or feasts or lunchsleeves, right?
Like these, these things willpop up and then the fans will go
crazy for these and say like,I'm gonna buy this at premium
price because it's coming froma, a source that I love and I'm
a fan of, right?
(32:16):
I really count on seeing thingslike that happening.
And I communicated this to someof our customers and things like
that.
And lo and behold, maybe a monthor two after I seen that trend,
it
Kenny (32:29):
There's a huge barage
Khalil (32:31):
I mean, I think Logan
Kenny (32:32):
call
Khalil (32:34):
somebody
Kenny (32:34):
somebody else.
Khalil (32:35):
Lunchable, there's a,
Kenny (32:37):
there's a
Khalil (32:37):
of
Kenny (32:38):
bunch of other,
Khalil (32:39):
Things
Kenny (32:39):
happening.
I think it was called.
Khalil (32:41):
Year
Kenny (32:42):
Your way
Khalil (32:43):
Away,
Kenny (32:44):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (32:44):
a market,
Kenny (32:45):
Market's a market way.
Khalil (32:47):
strawberry, like one strawberry for like 25 bucks.
Kenny (32:50):
That's crazy.
Khalil (32:51):
And they
Kenny (32:51):
And they had like all
Khalil (32:53):
smoothies for like$45, tequilas and coffees and like
all this
Kenny (32:59):
all
Khalil (32:59):
happening.
Or influencer
Kenny (33:02):
coffee and stuff like that happen, and it was just
kind of like this garage thing.
Khalil (33:05):
like,
Kenny (33:05):
was like, oh, wow.
Khalil (33:07):
my
Kenny (33:07):
my aha.
Khalil (33:08):
okay,
Kenny (33:09):
we're on the.
Khalil (33:10):
with this.
This is how
Kenny (33:11):
How I
Khalil (33:13):
within the platform and start
Kenny (33:15):
talking about
Khalil (33:16):
a little bit more
Kenny (33:17):
more louder.
Khalil (33:17):
because it's working.
that was
Kenny (33:20):
That was like my moment
Khalil (33:22):
Now
Kenny (33:22):
now.
We've had some moments in themarket.
Khalil (33:24):
well, which I, you know, we could save those stories for
another time,
Kenny (33:29):
Yeah, for sure.
Khalil (33:30):
We've helped inspire,
Kenny (33:32):
products.
Khalil (33:33):
we helped inspire, products that are on the shelves
now.
Products that are being made,marketing campaigns, all types
of stuff with our, but literallyseeing that one signal and being
able to communicate it.
We did a webinar about it andeverything, was like my big
moment where I was like, oh,right.
Now I don't have to be fearfulof showing this off.
(33:55):
Now I don't have to be fearfulof, Misrepresenting or, or you
know, the AI hallucinating oranything like that, like I
didn't have to deal with that.
I could talk straight facts.
Kenny (34:07):
Appreciate that.
And so in closing, I just wannasay, Khalil, thank you for being
on the platform.
You shared a lot about yourjourney, what you're building
with Nichefire.
Can you real quickly tell folkshow to stay tapped in with the
brand, with you?
What's the best route to, to seeall things that are going on in
your world?
Khalil (34:23):
Yeah, for sure.
and I appreciate, appreciate youhaving me, man.
It's always a pleasure.
it, it's very easy.
Reach out to us via LinkedIn.
if you could provide, our, ourLinkedIn, personal link.
Well, LinkedIn as well, as wellas Michael and Stevens.
we, we got three founders here,so it's really easy to kind of
(34:44):
get in, in contact with one ofus.
and then you always can checkout our blog.
we got a newsletter drop in nextweek.
www.nichefire.com is the website
Kenny (34:56):
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (34:57):
LinkedIn will be the best way to kind of contact this
person.
Kenny (35:00):
Appreciate you for that.
Khalil, for those listening in,thank you for tuning into
another great episode of TheBeyond Normal Podcast.
Appreciate it.
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