August 24, 2025 • 26 mins
"I didn't appreciate what some parents went through with sleep issues until my fourth baby came along." This candid admission from host Mel Schenker opens a refreshingly honest conversation with pediatric sleep consultant Michelle Caris about the challenges of helping children sleep and the life-changing benefits of getting it right.
Michelle reveals how her own sleep struggles as a new parent led her to become an IPSP certified pediatric sleep consultant with a mission to change the narrative around sleep training. "When parents hear 'sleep training,' they think they have to let their baby cry for hours until they eventually get exhausted and fall asleep. Yes, that's a method, but there are so many others." She details gentle alternatives like the "fade away" method, where parents gradually increase distance from their child's bed, and "quick checks" that allow parents to comfort their child at intervals they're comfortable with.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Mel realises she's been intuitively using a recognised sleep training technique with her three-year-old who is experiencing sleep regression. This moment highlights how parents often have good instincts but benefit from validation and structure. Michelle addresses the fear that sleep training might damage parent-child attachment, explaining that bonds built over months or years won't break during a few challenging nights. "You're responding to their biological need for sleep. You're teaching them a skill they'll use their entire life."
Perhaps most powerfully, Michelle emphasises that seeking help isn't a sign of failure but wisdom, even for experienced parents. Every child is different and sleep deprivation affects not just individual health but relationships and family functioning. Her personalised approach meets parents where they are, respecting their values while guiding them toward better sleep for the whole family.
Ready to reclaim peaceful nights? Connect with Michelle at sleepwellwithmichelle.com or on Instagram @sleepwellwithmichelle, and use code "beyondorganised10" for 10% off any sleep consulting package.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mel (00:18):
Welcome to Beyond Organised , the podcast that helps you
simplify your life and amplifyyour purpose.
I'm Mel Schenker, life coach,speaker, founder of She's
Organised, but, more importantly, a wife and mum of four little
kids.
If you've ever felt overwhelmed, like you're constantly
juggling everything but neverquite catching up, this is the
place for you.
Here we go beyond just thetidying up and creating systems.
(00:42):
We're talking about real lifestrategies that bring order to
your life, but also we talkabout the things beyond the
organizing, the things thatreally matter, like your
parenting relationships and somuch more.
So grab your coffee and let'sdive in.
Welcome to another episode ofBeyond Organised.
(01:04):
I have the lovely Michelle Carishere and I'll give you a quick
rundown as to who she is.
So Michelle is an IPSPcertified pediatric sleep
consultant and fellow parent whounderstands the exhaustion and
overwhelm that comes with sleepstruggles.
Combining professional trainingin the science of infant and
(01:24):
child sleep with real-lifeparenting experience, michelle
helps families reclaim peacefulnights and well-rested days
through evidence-based,personalized support.
Her compassionate, practicalapproach meets parents where
they are at, creating sleepplans that honor each child's
needs, respects parenting valuesand fit into real life.
(01:45):
Michelle's mission is simple toguide families out of the fog
of sleep deprivation and into aseason of rest, confidence and
connection.
Welcome.
Michelle (01:55):
Michelle, thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here withyou, mel.
Mel (02:01):
Oh, you have no idea how much I need you right now, in
this season of my life.
Where have you been?
Michelle (02:10):
Well, you know, I'm happy to help.
Mel (02:13):
Yeah, oh, believe me, I've got a few questions of my own to
be asking here, but, for thelisteners, can you give us a bit
of background as to whatinspired you to become the
pediatric sleep consultant?
Michelle (02:29):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
So I'll try and make it likesort of brief.
But a couple of years ago Iactually got my health coaching
certification.
I kind of have a passion forthe wellness space, but
definitely not, you know,aligned with my day job.
And then COVID happened and Ihad a baby, so that kind of
trickled off.
(02:50):
And then my sister actually hasrecently become a doula a birth
and postpartum doula and startedworking with a women's
perinatal wellness center herenear me in Michigan it's.
It's called whole mama Michigan, so shout out to them.
And she kind of roped me intothat space and um, at the time I
(03:12):
, you know I have athree-year-old now and, um, I
just really felt in my heartlike I wanted to spend more time
with her.
Um, I have a really longcommute work, you know,
full-time job, and just reallywas, you know, tugging at me
(03:50):
that I wasn't seeing her as muchas I wanted to and also I still
had that that pull towards, youknow, the wellness provide
support for moms and also maybeallow me to go like part-time
with my day job.
So I still, I mean, I stillenjoy what I do, but would it
allow me to spend a little bitmore time with my daughter?
And I thought to myself whatwas some of the hardest parts of
my parenting journey so far?
And I said sleep.
Mel (04:05):
We had a rough go of sleep.
Preach it.
Michelle (04:07):
Yeah, yeah, and I started learning through working
with my sister in this otherorganization that there are so
many resources out there forparents that you know people
just don't know about.
You know mental healthspecialists and you know doulas
I didn't know what a doula wasbefore my sister became one, all
(04:29):
sorts of things and so Ithought, you know, I really want
to use this opportunity tosupport moms and help them, help
their little ones sleep, sothat they can be, you know, the
best version of themselves andthe best parents that they want
to be.
So that's kind of what got me towhere I am now.
Mel (04:47):
That is so good.
Honestly, you are probablyevery woman's dream person in
the first few years of a newbornlife.
It is so hard when it comes tosleep and just to throw a little
of my life in there.
My first three were really goodsleepers.
(05:09):
They slept through from aroundfour or five months and I sort
of did all the right things, youknow.
I put them down when they werenot quite asleep yet and they
would get themselves to sleepand it was great.
It was great.
And then my fourth came alongand he did not read the manual
(05:30):
and he's just turned one andonly really in the last week or
so.
He's having some more nightsnow where he's sleeping through,
but I'm still getting up mostnights 2, 3, 4 am giving him a
feed, putting him back down,settling him again, all of that,
and he's one, and I didn't haveto deal with that with the
(05:52):
others and I'm sure there aremums out there that go, oh,
boo-hoo, my kid's two or threeand still have to deal with that
, but I just it is.
So I guess I didn't appreciatewhat some parents went through
when it came to having issueswith their child sleeping,
because I was so blessed with myfirst three and it's like, it's
(06:16):
almost like God when you needto experience this, so you know
what other women have to gothrough.
Michelle (06:22):
You can emphasize.
Mel (06:24):
You've had it too easy.
So yeah, anyway, you are, I'msure, a breath of fresh air for
most parents.
So how do you mainly helppeople?
What is your main methods orways of going about helping
these parents?
Michelle (06:40):
Parents yeah, so let me I'll explain the process a
little bit and then I'll explainkind of the methodology that I
use.
So process would be you wouldbook a 15 minute free call with
me, you know, tell me what'sgoing on, get a sense to kind of
know each other, and if wethink it's a good fit, I will
send an intake form to learn allthe things about you and your
(07:04):
baby.
You know your parenting style,baby's personality, how old they
are, what you're strugglingwith and I'll put together a
personalized, customized, justfor you sleep plan that goes
through all the things sleepenvironment, daytime schedule,
nighttime, what to do when theywake up, how to put them down,
all the things, nighttime, whatto do when they wake up, how to
(07:26):
put them down, all the things.
And then I work with parentsfor up to two weeks daily touch
points, answering questions,tweaking schedules,
troubleshooting, all that kindof stuff.
So that's kind of the process.
And then, as far as methodologygoes, one thing that I'm really
trying to do is kind of changethe narrative around sleep
training, because a lot ofparents when they hear sleep
(07:47):
training they think, ok, I putmy baby down and they just have
to cry for hours until theyeventually get exhausted and
fall asleep.
And, yes, that's a method, butthere are so many others and
that is not the direction that Itend to go in Nobody feels good
.
Mel (08:05):
Nobody feels good.
Nobody feels good hearing thebaby cry.
Baby doesn't feel good.
Mom doesn't feel good, I know,yeah, it's hard, it's hard.
There are some moments whereI've had to let it happen, but
not for too long, and that'sokay, yeah, yeah, and that's
okay, no-transcript.
Michelle (08:55):
Move that chair a little bit farther, a little bit
farther away from the room, sothat they, you know, gradually
get used to being there in frontof them, which is great for
parents who maybe are currentlyhaving to lay next to their baby
or toddler until they fallasleep, so that you know you're
still in the room with them,they can still see you.
They get comfortable with youslowly being further away from
(09:17):
them until they can eventuallyfall asleep with you.
Out of the room is the end goal.
And then for babies who arechildren usually still in cribs,
that are maybe a little bitmore on the stubborn side my
daughter, because there arethose babies out there there's a
method called quick checks,which is I know a lot of people
(09:38):
have heard of the Ferber method,but this is even a little bit
more gentle than that whereparents actually pick the
interval that they will, youknow, set their baby down, leave
.
Virpr is a little bit harderbecause the interval increases
and there's no control orflexibility.
This is okay.
I feel comfortable with athree-minute timer or a
(09:59):
five-minute timer or aneight-minute timer, you know I
have been doing that you have.
Mel (10:05):
I didn't even realize.
So just to cut you offcompletely.
Michelle (10:09):
No worries, tell me, I'm so sorry.
Mel (10:10):
But with my three-year-old.
She's regressed lately.
Michelle (10:15):
It's just been the last couple of months.
Mel (10:16):
All of a sudden she wakes up.
She needs dad or yeah, it'susually dad.
So that's nice for you.
Michelle (10:23):
That's nice, but.
Mel (10:28):
And we have like, and he was just so tired that he was
just going in there and there'sa spare bed in her room and he
would just fall asleep in thereand then she would be in the cot
and then it was just.
It was just their habit, likegetting into it, it was just
easier to just sleep and thenshe would go back to sleep and
it's fine because dad's in there, but then he's in the other
room, all that you know.
(10:48):
So I actually got up one nightand I said we'll check on you in
five minutes.
And I came back in five minutesand she was like okay, okay.
And she was still awake.
So I said I'll come back inanother five minutes, I'll check
on you in five minutes.
And she was asleep and I'm like, okay, and so we just started
doing that more.
And now at nighttime, when it'stime to go to bed, she wants to
(11:11):
have daddy in there or someonein there, and it's like no, no,
no, no, no, we're not going downthis path.
You used to be able to sleep onyour own, you're fine.
But I just said you know, I'llcheck on you in five minutes.
And then she's like, okay.
And now she started saying justcheck on me in five minutes,
that's so sweet.
Michelle (11:29):
So is that kind of what you're talking about.
You're doing great, yeah,because you're creating those
boundaries.
You know like she needs to stayin her bed, right, but you're
doing it in a loving way, likeI'm here for you.
I'm right here, like I'm notleaving you, I'm not abandoning
you, I'll be back in fiveminutes if you need me, yeah
you're safe, exactly.
Mel (11:54):
So need me.
Yeah, you're safe, exactly sothat you're doing amazing.
I didn't even know that was athing.
I didn't.
We just I was like we justcannot go backwards.
Michelle (11:59):
I need my yes and that's with the baby exactly.
And that's so important becausesometimes parents will like and
I've even been tempted myselfwhere she goes, just lay with me
, mommy, and I've been temptedto do it, but I know if I do it
once it's going to turn into ahabit.
And then you have to break thehabit and that's really hard.
Where she goes, just lay withme, mommy, and I've intended to
do it, but I know if I do itonce it's going to turn into a
habit and then you have to breakthat habit, and that's really
hard.
Mel (12:16):
Yeah, and it is hard because you know that they're
only little once and that timegoes so fast.
It's so special, the nightseems so long, but the years go
so quick, and so there are thosemoments when you think, okay,
I'll just cuddle you because Ineed that, and you kind of have
(12:37):
to stop yourself and go hang ona second.
It's not about what I need inthis moment, it's actually about
what she needs, and I don'twant to set her up to have
bigger sleep issues, which then,in turn, impacts me and the
rest of the family.
yeah, so yeah it's sometimes youhave to put your own sort of
(12:57):
needs aside as well to help withthem, but I love that.
I sure I could have done withyou a long time ago though well,
I'm happy to help you throughanything else.
Michelle (13:09):
There is a regression at three years old too, so
that's probably what she wentthrough.
My daughter went through it too, and it was rough it is rough.
Mel (13:18):
I don't remember it with my older two, but yeah, anyway,
yeah sorry, continue.
Michelle (13:23):
No, you're good.
Um, I just wanted to make onecomment too, that if moms are,
or dads are, laying with theirbabies, and that works for them,
or are feeding their babies tosleep, and that works for them,
like, yeah, you can keep doingthat, like if it works for your
family that's okay.
I'm not yeah, no shame.
I'm not gonna come in and sayyou need to do this or you need
to do that, like I'm not here tojudge.
(13:44):
I'm here to provide whateversupport your family needs, like
maybe.
Like there's all differenttypes of situations.
Maybe you're okay with nightwake-ups but you want to get
their naps better, or somethinglike that.
You know I'm not going to forcemy agenda on you.
Mel (14:01):
Yeah, no, I love that.
And everyone has differentpriorities, different values and
all that when it comes to kidsand sleep, you get people right
from the beginning that want toco-sleep and you get others,
like myself, that will.
I know that I won't get anysleep unless the baby is in its
own crib, you know.
(14:21):
So we are all different and weall have different values, and I
love that you work with theparents and meet them where
they're at.
I think that's very reassuring,because I think there's enough
stuff out there that judges andshames us, and it doesn't matter
whether you oh, it doesn'tmatter if you're bottle feed or
(14:44):
breastfeed, or you sleep withyour child or you don't.
You're going to be shamed,you're doing it wrong.
There's enough things out thereand it's so hard particularly
for the first time parents to beable to navigate oh, just
navigate all of it, to be honest, and it's hard enough without
(15:05):
having the opinions of the worldthrown at you.
Michelle (15:08):
Yeah, with the internet and social media.
Mel (15:11):
Oh, yeah, oh definitely, and I think it's great that you
just come in, personalize it,meet them where they're at and
just help them with whatever itis that they're struggling with,
with the sleep, which is areally big thing.
Oh, I love it.
So what do you find is the mainthing that holds parents back?
(15:33):
Holds them back from being ableto reach out for help or make
the changes needed yeah, yeah, Ithink there's say two or three
main things.
Michelle (15:44):
I think one is just the awareness and knowledge of
what sleep training is like.
What I talked about it's notjust cry it out.
There's so many other ways ofdoing it.
I think the second thing is theworry that it will damage your
attachment or your bond withyour baby and your child, and I
think this is a really, reallybig concern in today's day and
(16:07):
age especially.
But something that I tell momsis that your bond with your baby
has been built over days,months, weeks, years.
Right, so you've got aone-year-old.
You've had a year a year of timeof love, of cuddles, being
there for your baby, meetingtheir needs.
So if there are one, two, three, even five nights where it's a
(16:32):
little rough and rocky, thatbond is not going to be broken.
Mel (16:36):
Yeah.
Michelle (16:37):
But you know, you've had a year and this is five
nights, not even days, fivenights out of that whole time,
right, yeah, and you can alwaysreestablish in the morning you
wake up and you give them loveand cuddles and hugs and kisses.
Mel (16:54):
Yes, plenty of kisses.
Michelle (16:55):
Yes, your baby knows that they are still loved.
And then the third piece Itouch on in my sleep plans,
actually too, is the whole thingaround responsive parenting,
right?
It's kind of a big keywordthese days, and being a
responsive parent really, if youbreak it down, really means
(17:17):
you're responding to their needs.
You're not responding to everylittle thing you can, but you're
responding to their needs andsometimes you as a parent know a
little bit more about theirneeds maybe than they do.
In that maybe a little bitemotional moment as a
one-year-old, yeah, so beforeyou put them down to bed, you're
(17:39):
making sure all their needs aremet.
Right, they're not hungry,their diapers changed, they're
in comfy clothes, they're safeand you are responding to their
biological need for sleep.
Mel (17:50):
That is what you're responding to.
Michelle (17:52):
when you do the sleep training, you're teaching them
skill that they're going to beable to use for their entire
life.
Basically, if they have a hardtime falling asleep now, then
that usually continues for awhile.
Mel (18:08):
You see it in adults now that say oh, I've always been a
bad sleeper, like right frombirth, you know, I've always
been bad and they just acceptthat that's just how it is and I
certainly don't want that formy kids.
Yeah.
Michelle (18:23):
You want them to grow up well regulated and have those
skills and all that kind ofstuff.
So I think those are kind ofthe main roadblocks that I try
and chat with parents about andkind of relieve that anxiety a
little bit.
Mel (18:37):
Yeah, that's really good.
I think, out of everything thatI'm hearing, I'm just hearing a
lot of reassuring things.
I think, as a parent, we canquestion whether we're doing it
right, doing it wrong.
I know there's not really aright or wrong as such, but you
just wonder even four kids in,I'm still learning and I still
(18:59):
go.
Is there a better way of doingthis?
I don't know, but this is justreally reassuring.
But also, even as a fourth timemum, I would still go to you
and seek you for help.
Aw, thank you.
I'm not even going to pretendto know everything, because
every child is different, and Ithink I feel like there's almost
(19:25):
this stigma that if you've gota second child or more, you
should know what you're doingbecause you've already gone
through it before.
But every child is so differentand, like I said, my first
three slept really well and myfourth one is just nuts, so it's
like so it feels like a firstchild again, because it's
(19:48):
something you've neverexperienced.
Yeah, exactly, and I just lovethat.
All of this has been reallyreassuring, that it doesn't
matter where you're at, how manykids you've got, what's going
on.
There is a method and there isa way to be able to get the help
that suits you and your family,and I love that.
(20:08):
And what is one thing that youwish?
More women knew, or moreparents knew Dads as well.
Michelle (20:17):
Yeah, I think a couple of things.
I think the biggest one is itis okay to ask for help.
It is okay to ask for support.
Yeah, and I say that even tomyself because I'm a pretty like
independent, I can do it kindof person.
Yeah, but when you're goingthrough the trenches of early
parenthood, I mean even justparenthood in general.
(20:39):
It's hard Like reach out.
Rely on your friends and family.
They want to be there for you,just like you want to be there
for your friends and family.
You know, reach out to apostpartum doula, a lactation
consultant, a sleep consultant,a feeding specialist, your
pediatrician, a mental healththerapist, therapist, like.
(20:59):
There are so many greatresources out there for parents.
Mel (21:02):
You don't have to suffer in silence yeah that is probably
the piece of advice I would giveand that's a really good piece
of advice because I feel like Iknow.
For me it's almost like Ishould know what I'm doing
because I'm a female and it'sbuilt into me to have babies and
I should just know what I'mdoing.
(21:23):
That's the kind of thoughtpattern I had, particularly with
my first one, and he neverlatched.
I got the lactation consultant,unfortunately, and didn't help
in that case.
But then you go through thewhole.
There's something wrong with me, all of that and you start
questioning and even when itcomes to sleep, you just think
(21:45):
they should know what they'redoing and I should know what I'm
doing.
It's biological, all of that.
It's a maze.
There's so much to figure outand work out.
But why not learn from someonethat is experienced in this area
or has walked that path and Ilove that you are both trained
(22:06):
and experienced as a momyourself in being able to help
people and sleep is, honestly,it is the biggest thing.
Sleep deprivation messes you up.
Biggest thing like sleepdeprivation messes you up.
I know the times when I've beenso extremely sleep deprived.
(22:27):
It's almost like I felt like Iwas dying.
I know that sounds so extreme,but I was going crazy.
I couldn't think properly.
There's no way I could drivesafely or do anything.
I just couldn't function yeah.
Michelle (22:42):
I mean, it's a biological need for your body.
Mel (22:45):
Yeah, To function Exactly, and if you don't get enough
sleep, you do die, if you don'tsleep at all.
It is so important for ourhealth and our recovery and just
yeah.
Michelle (22:57):
Just your mental health.
Marriages, everything,relationships, Yep.
Mel (23:03):
The relationships is a big one.
It's such a strain,particularly in that first year
with a baby.
It's a big strain on arelationship and what you're
doing is just so foundational,not just to the sleep of the
baby but to the health of arelationship and the health of
(23:26):
an individual in being able tofunction and move forward.
There's a lot of aspects towhat you're doing, and I think
it's fantastic that you'vechosen this profession to help
people, and I love what you'redoing.
Thank you so much.
Anyone who's listening, thatwants to be able to connect with
(23:48):
you and also loves what you'redoing and thinks oh my gosh, I
need Michelle.
Where can they find you?
Michelle (23:54):
Yes, I'm a couple of different places.
So I have a website it issleepwellwithmichellecom, and my
Instagram handle also is atsleepwellwithmichelle.
So I'd say those are probablythe link and they can get
straight to you.
But I have really enjoyed thisconversation.
Mel (24:22):
I'm sorry I kind of hijacked it at a few points,
because I'm busting with so manyquestions and I just, oh, I've
loved learning from you and alsorealizing, oh, I'm doing a
couple of things right, sothat's good, thank you.
Michelle (24:46):
You're welcome and thank you so much.
And one other thing I wanted tomention is I do have a code for
any of your listeners.
It is beyond organized 10.
So 10% off any of my sleepconsulting packages.
And I spelled it with an S, sofor anyone in the States I
spelled it with an S.
Mel (25:00):
How you spell it?
Mel?
For all the Americans,canadians and that part of the
world.
Sorry, I'm sorry to confuse you.
It is beyond organized with anS.
Here I do it the English way.
So thank you for that, michelle, and yeah, make the most of
that, guys.
(25:21):
It's such a great offer.
And to be able to workone-on-one with someone clearly
as knowledgeable as Michelle andas caring, I would be jumping
straight on that and I'mprobably going to be reaching
out to you myself.
Michelle (25:36):
Michelle.
Thank you so much, mel, Ireally appreciate that.
Mel (25:40):
You are welcome.
Thank you for coming on theshow and we'll talk to you soon
Sounds good, thank you.
If you loved this episode,don't forget to hit subscribe so
you don't miss what's comingnext.
And if you want to continue theconversation, you can connect
with me on Instagram at @shes.
organised, or, for some freeresources, head over to
beyondorganised.
com/ toolkit.
(26:00):
Remember, organising is a toolto live the purposeful life
beyond it.
See you next time.
Welcome to Beyond Organised , the podcast that helps you
simplify your life and amplifyyour purpose.
I'm Mel Schenker, life coach,speaker, founder of She's
Organised, but, more importantly, a wife and mum of four little
kids.
If you've ever felt overwhelmed, like you're constantly
juggling everything but neverquite catching up, this is the
place for you.
Here we go beyond just thetidying up and creating systems.
(00:42):
We're talking about real lifestrategies that bring order to
your life, but also we talkabout the things beyond the
organizing, the things thatreally matter, like your
parenting relationships and somuch more.
So grab your coffee and let'sdive in.
Welcome to another episode ofBeyond Organised.
(01:04):
I have the lovely Michelle Carishere and I'll give you a quick
rundown as to who she is.
So Michelle is an IPSPcertified pediatric sleep
consultant and fellow parent whounderstands the exhaustion and
overwhelm that comes with sleepstruggles.
Combining professional trainingin the science of infant and
(01:24):
child sleep with real-lifeparenting experience, michelle
helps families reclaim peacefulnights and well-rested days
through evidence-based,personalized support.
Her compassionate, practicalapproach meets parents where
they are at, creating sleepplans that honor each child's
needs, respects parenting valuesand fit into real life.
(01:45):
Michelle's mission is simple toguide families out of the fog
of sleep deprivation and into aseason of rest, confidence and
connection.
Welcome.
Michelle (01:55):
Michelle, thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here withyou, mel.
Mel (02:01):
Oh, you have no idea how much I need you right now, in
this season of my life.
Where have you been?
Michelle (02:10):
Well, you know, I'm happy to help.
Mel (02:13):
Yeah, oh, believe me, I've got a few questions of my own to
be asking here, but, for thelisteners, can you give us a bit
of background as to whatinspired you to become the
pediatric sleep consultant?
Michelle (02:29):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
So I'll try and make it likesort of brief.
But a couple of years ago Iactually got my health coaching
certification.
I kind of have a passion forthe wellness space, but
definitely not, you know,aligned with my day job.
And then COVID happened and Ihad a baby, so that kind of
trickled off.
(02:50):
And then my sister actually hasrecently become a doula a birth
and postpartum doula and startedworking with a women's
perinatal wellness center herenear me in Michigan it's.
It's called whole mama Michigan, so shout out to them.
And she kind of roped me intothat space and um, at the time I
(03:12):
, you know I have athree-year-old now and, um, I
just really felt in my heartlike I wanted to spend more time
with her.
Um, I have a really longcommute work, you know,
full-time job, and just reallywas, you know, tugging at me
(03:50):
that I wasn't seeing her as muchas I wanted to and also I still
had that that pull towards, youknow, the wellness provide
support for moms and also maybeallow me to go like part-time
with my day job.
So I still, I mean, I stillenjoy what I do, but would it
allow me to spend a little bitmore time with my daughter?
And I thought to myself whatwas some of the hardest parts of
my parenting journey so far?
And I said sleep.
Mel (04:05):
We had a rough go of sleep.
Preach it.
Michelle (04:07):
Yeah, yeah, and I started learning through working
with my sister in this otherorganization that there are so
many resources out there forparents that you know people
just don't know about.
You know mental healthspecialists and you know doulas
I didn't know what a doula wasbefore my sister became one, all
(04:29):
sorts of things and so Ithought, you know, I really want
to use this opportunity tosupport moms and help them, help
their little ones sleep, sothat they can be, you know, the
best version of themselves andthe best parents that they want
to be.
So that's kind of what got me towhere I am now.
Mel (04:47):
That is so good.
Honestly, you are probablyevery woman's dream person in
the first few years of a newbornlife.
It is so hard when it comes tosleep and just to throw a little
of my life in there.
My first three were really goodsleepers.
(05:09):
They slept through from aroundfour or five months and I sort
of did all the right things, youknow.
I put them down when they werenot quite asleep yet and they
would get themselves to sleepand it was great.
It was great.
And then my fourth came alongand he did not read the manual
(05:30):
and he's just turned one andonly really in the last week or
so.
He's having some more nightsnow where he's sleeping through,
but I'm still getting up mostnights 2, 3, 4 am giving him a
feed, putting him back down,settling him again, all of that,
and he's one, and I didn't haveto deal with that with the
(05:52):
others and I'm sure there aremums out there that go, oh,
boo-hoo, my kid's two or threeand still have to deal with that
, but I just it is.
So I guess I didn't appreciatewhat some parents went through
when it came to having issueswith their child sleeping,
because I was so blessed with myfirst three and it's like, it's
(06:16):
almost like God when you needto experience this, so you know
what other women have to gothrough.
Michelle (06:22):
You can emphasize.
Mel (06:24):
You've had it too easy.
So yeah, anyway, you are, I'msure, a breath of fresh air for
most parents.
So how do you mainly helppeople?
What is your main methods orways of going about helping
these parents?
Michelle (06:40):
Parents yeah, so let me I'll explain the process a
little bit and then I'll explainkind of the methodology that I
use.
So process would be you wouldbook a 15 minute free call with
me, you know, tell me what'sgoing on, get a sense to kind of
know each other, and if wethink it's a good fit, I will
send an intake form to learn allthe things about you and your
(07:04):
baby.
You know your parenting style,baby's personality, how old they
are, what you're strugglingwith and I'll put together a
personalized, customized, justfor you sleep plan that goes
through all the things sleepenvironment, daytime schedule,
nighttime, what to do when theywake up, how to put them down,
all the things, nighttime, whatto do when they wake up, how to
(07:26):
put them down, all the things.
And then I work with parentsfor up to two weeks daily touch
points, answering questions,tweaking schedules,
troubleshooting, all that kindof stuff.
So that's kind of the process.
And then, as far as methodologygoes, one thing that I'm really
trying to do is kind of changethe narrative around sleep
training, because a lot ofparents when they hear sleep
(07:47):
training they think, ok, I putmy baby down and they just have
to cry for hours until theyeventually get exhausted and
fall asleep.
And, yes, that's a method, butthere are so many others and
that is not the direction that Itend to go in Nobody feels good
.
Mel (08:05):
Nobody feels good.
Nobody feels good hearing thebaby cry.
Baby doesn't feel good.
Mom doesn't feel good, I know,yeah, it's hard, it's hard.
There are some moments whereI've had to let it happen, but
not for too long, and that'sokay, yeah, yeah, and that's
okay, no-transcript.
Michelle (08:55):
Move that chair a little bit farther, a little bit
farther away from the room, sothat they, you know, gradually
get used to being there in frontof them, which is great for
parents who maybe are currentlyhaving to lay next to their baby
or toddler until they fallasleep, so that you know you're
still in the room with them,they can still see you.
They get comfortable with youslowly being further away from
(09:17):
them until they can eventuallyfall asleep with you.
Out of the room is the end goal.
And then for babies who arechildren usually still in cribs,
that are maybe a little bitmore on the stubborn side my
daughter, because there arethose babies out there there's a
method called quick checks,which is I know a lot of people
(09:38):
have heard of the Ferber method,but this is even a little bit
more gentle than that whereparents actually pick the
interval that they will, youknow, set their baby down, leave
.
Virpr is a little bit harderbecause the interval increases
and there's no control orflexibility.
This is okay.
I feel comfortable with athree-minute timer or a
(09:59):
five-minute timer or aneight-minute timer, you know I
have been doing that you have.
Mel (10:05):
I didn't even realize.
So just to cut you offcompletely.
Michelle (10:09):
No worries, tell me, I'm so sorry.
Mel (10:10):
But with my three-year-old.
She's regressed lately.
Michelle (10:15):
It's just been the last couple of months.
Mel (10:16):
All of a sudden she wakes up.
She needs dad or yeah, it'susually dad.
So that's nice for you.
Michelle (10:23):
That's nice, but.
Mel (10:28):
And we have like, and he was just so tired that he was
just going in there and there'sa spare bed in her room and he
would just fall asleep in thereand then she would be in the cot
and then it was just.
It was just their habit, likegetting into it, it was just
easier to just sleep and thenshe would go back to sleep and
it's fine because dad's in there, but then he's in the other
room, all that you know.
(10:48):
So I actually got up one nightand I said we'll check on you in
five minutes.
And I came back in five minutesand she was like okay, okay.
And she was still awake.
So I said I'll come back inanother five minutes, I'll check
on you in five minutes.
And she was asleep and I'm like, okay, and so we just started
doing that more.
And now at nighttime, when it'stime to go to bed, she wants to
(11:11):
have daddy in there or someonein there, and it's like no, no,
no, no, no, we're not going downthis path.
You used to be able to sleep onyour own, you're fine.
But I just said you know, I'llcheck on you in five minutes.
And then she's like, okay.
And now she started saying justcheck on me in five minutes,
that's so sweet.
Michelle (11:29):
So is that kind of what you're talking about.
You're doing great, yeah,because you're creating those
boundaries.
You know like she needs to stayin her bed, right, but you're
doing it in a loving way, likeI'm here for you.
I'm right here, like I'm notleaving you, I'm not abandoning
you, I'll be back in fiveminutes if you need me, yeah
you're safe, exactly.
Mel (11:54):
So need me.
Yeah, you're safe, exactly sothat you're doing amazing.
I didn't even know that was athing.
I didn't.
We just I was like we justcannot go backwards.
Michelle (11:59):
I need my yes and that's with the baby exactly.
And that's so important becausesometimes parents will like and
I've even been tempted myselfwhere she goes, just lay with me
, mommy, and I've been temptedto do it, but I know if I do it
once it's going to turn into ahabit.
And then you have to break thehabit and that's really hard.
Where she goes, just lay withme, mommy, and I've intended to
do it, but I know if I do itonce it's going to turn into a
habit and then you have to breakthat habit, and that's really
hard.
Mel (12:16):
Yeah, and it is hard because you know that they're
only little once and that timegoes so fast.
It's so special, the nightseems so long, but the years go
so quick, and so there are thosemoments when you think, okay,
I'll just cuddle you because Ineed that, and you kind of have
(12:37):
to stop yourself and go hang ona second.
It's not about what I need inthis moment, it's actually about
what she needs, and I don'twant to set her up to have
bigger sleep issues, which then,in turn, impacts me and the
rest of the family.
yeah, so yeah it's sometimes youhave to put your own sort of
(12:57):
needs aside as well to help withthem, but I love that.
I sure I could have done withyou a long time ago though well,
I'm happy to help you throughanything else.
Michelle (13:09):
There is a regression at three years old too, so
that's probably what she wentthrough.
My daughter went through it too, and it was rough it is rough.
Mel (13:18):
I don't remember it with my older two, but yeah, anyway,
yeah sorry, continue.
Michelle (13:23):
No, you're good.
Um, I just wanted to make onecomment too, that if moms are,
or dads are, laying with theirbabies, and that works for them,
or are feeding their babies tosleep, and that works for them,
like, yeah, you can keep doingthat, like if it works for your
family that's okay.
I'm not yeah, no shame.
I'm not gonna come in and sayyou need to do this or you need
to do that, like I'm not here tojudge.
(13:44):
I'm here to provide whateversupport your family needs, like
maybe.
Like there's all differenttypes of situations.
Maybe you're okay with nightwake-ups but you want to get
their naps better, or somethinglike that.
You know I'm not going to forcemy agenda on you.
Mel (14:01):
Yeah, no, I love that.
And everyone has differentpriorities, different values and
all that when it comes to kidsand sleep, you get people right
from the beginning that want toco-sleep and you get others,
like myself, that will.
I know that I won't get anysleep unless the baby is in its
own crib, you know.
(14:21):
So we are all different and weall have different values, and I
love that you work with theparents and meet them where
they're at.
I think that's very reassuring,because I think there's enough
stuff out there that judges andshames us, and it doesn't matter
whether you oh, it doesn'tmatter if you're bottle feed or
(14:44):
breastfeed, or you sleep withyour child or you don't.
You're going to be shamed,you're doing it wrong.
There's enough things out thereand it's so hard particularly
for the first time parents to beable to navigate oh, just
navigate all of it, to be honest, and it's hard enough without
(15:05):
having the opinions of the worldthrown at you.
Michelle (15:08):
Yeah, with the internet and social media.
Mel (15:11):
Oh, yeah, oh definitely, and I think it's great that you
just come in, personalize it,meet them where they're at and
just help them with whatever itis that they're struggling with,
with the sleep, which is areally big thing.
Oh, I love it.
So what do you find is the mainthing that holds parents back?
(15:33):
Holds them back from being ableto reach out for help or make
the changes needed yeah, yeah, Ithink there's say two or three
main things.
Michelle (15:44):
I think one is just the awareness and knowledge of
what sleep training is like.
What I talked about it's notjust cry it out.
There's so many other ways ofdoing it.
I think the second thing is theworry that it will damage your
attachment or your bond withyour baby and your child, and I
think this is a really, reallybig concern in today's day and
(16:07):
age especially.
But something that I tell momsis that your bond with your baby
has been built over days,months, weeks, years.
Right, so you've got aone-year-old.
You've had a year a year of timeof love, of cuddles, being
there for your baby, meetingtheir needs.
So if there are one, two, three, even five nights where it's a
(16:32):
little rough and rocky, thatbond is not going to be broken.
Mel (16:36):
Yeah.
Michelle (16:37):
But you know, you've had a year and this is five
nights, not even days, fivenights out of that whole time,
right, yeah, and you can alwaysreestablish in the morning you
wake up and you give them loveand cuddles and hugs and kisses.
Mel (16:54):
Yes, plenty of kisses.
Michelle (16:55):
Yes, your baby knows that they are still loved.
And then the third piece Itouch on in my sleep plans,
actually too, is the whole thingaround responsive parenting,
right?
It's kind of a big keywordthese days, and being a
responsive parent really, if youbreak it down, really means
(17:17):
you're responding to their needs.
You're not responding to everylittle thing you can, but you're
responding to their needs andsometimes you as a parent know a
little bit more about theirneeds maybe than they do.
In that maybe a little bitemotional moment as a
one-year-old, yeah, so beforeyou put them down to bed, you're
(17:39):
making sure all their needs aremet.
Right, they're not hungry,their diapers changed, they're
in comfy clothes, they're safeand you are responding to their
biological need for sleep.
Mel (17:50):
That is what you're responding to.
Michelle (17:52):
when you do the sleep training, you're teaching them
skill that they're going to beable to use for their entire
life.
Basically, if they have a hardtime falling asleep now, then
that usually continues for awhile.
Mel (18:08):
You see it in adults now that say oh, I've always been a
bad sleeper, like right frombirth, you know, I've always
been bad and they just acceptthat that's just how it is and I
certainly don't want that formy kids.
Yeah.
Michelle (18:23):
You want them to grow up well regulated and have those
skills and all that kind ofstuff.
So I think those are kind ofthe main roadblocks that I try
and chat with parents about andkind of relieve that anxiety a
little bit.
Mel (18:37):
Yeah, that's really good.
I think, out of everything thatI'm hearing, I'm just hearing a
lot of reassuring things.
I think, as a parent, we canquestion whether we're doing it
right, doing it wrong.
I know there's not really aright or wrong as such, but you
just wonder even four kids in,I'm still learning and I still
(18:59):
go.
Is there a better way of doingthis?
I don't know, but this is justreally reassuring.
But also, even as a fourth timemum, I would still go to you
and seek you for help.
Aw, thank you.
I'm not even going to pretendto know everything, because
every child is different, and Ithink I feel like there's almost
(19:25):
this stigma that if you've gota second child or more, you
should know what you're doingbecause you've already gone
through it before.
But every child is so differentand, like I said, my first
three slept really well and myfourth one is just nuts, so it's
like so it feels like a firstchild again, because it's
(19:48):
something you've neverexperienced.
Yeah, exactly, and I just lovethat.
All of this has been reallyreassuring, that it doesn't
matter where you're at, how manykids you've got, what's going
on.
There is a method and there isa way to be able to get the help
that suits you and your family,and I love that.
(20:08):
And what is one thing that youwish?
More women knew, or moreparents knew Dads as well.
Michelle (20:17):
Yeah, I think a couple of things.
I think the biggest one is itis okay to ask for help.
It is okay to ask for support.
Yeah, and I say that even tomyself because I'm a pretty like
independent, I can do it kindof person.
Yeah, but when you're goingthrough the trenches of early
parenthood, I mean even justparenthood in general.
(20:39):
It's hard Like reach out.
Rely on your friends and family.
They want to be there for you,just like you want to be there
for your friends and family.
You know, reach out to apostpartum doula, a lactation
consultant, a sleep consultant,a feeding specialist, your
pediatrician, a mental healththerapist, therapist, like.
(20:59):
There are so many greatresources out there for parents.
Mel (21:02):
You don't have to suffer in silence yeah that is probably
the piece of advice I would giveand that's a really good piece
of advice because I feel like Iknow.
For me it's almost like Ishould know what I'm doing
because I'm a female and it'sbuilt into me to have babies and
I should just know what I'mdoing.
(21:23):
That's the kind of thoughtpattern I had, particularly with
my first one, and he neverlatched.
I got the lactation consultant,unfortunately, and didn't help
in that case.
But then you go through thewhole.
There's something wrong with me, all of that and you start
questioning and even when itcomes to sleep, you just think
(21:45):
they should know what they'redoing and I should know what I'm
doing.
It's biological, all of that.
It's a maze.
There's so much to figure outand work out.
But why not learn from someonethat is experienced in this area
or has walked that path and Ilove that you are both trained
(22:06):
and experienced as a momyourself in being able to help
people and sleep is, honestly,it is the biggest thing.
Sleep deprivation messes you up.
Biggest thing like sleepdeprivation messes you up.
I know the times when I've beenso extremely sleep deprived.
(22:27):
It's almost like I felt like Iwas dying.
I know that sounds so extreme,but I was going crazy.
I couldn't think properly.
There's no way I could drivesafely or do anything.
I just couldn't function yeah.
Michelle (22:42):
I mean, it's a biological need for your body.
Mel (22:45):
Yeah, To function Exactly, and if you don't get enough
sleep, you do die, if you don'tsleep at all.
It is so important for ourhealth and our recovery and just
yeah.
Michelle (22:57):
Just your mental health.
Marriages, everything,relationships, Yep.
Mel (23:03):
The relationships is a big one.
It's such a strain,particularly in that first year
with a baby.
It's a big strain on arelationship and what you're
doing is just so foundational,not just to the sleep of the
baby but to the health of arelationship and the health of
(23:26):
an individual in being able tofunction and move forward.
There's a lot of aspects towhat you're doing, and I think
it's fantastic that you'vechosen this profession to help
people, and I love what you'redoing.
Thank you so much.
Anyone who's listening, thatwants to be able to connect with
(23:48):
you and also loves what you'redoing and thinks oh my gosh, I
need Michelle.
Where can they find you?
Michelle (23:54):
Yes, I'm a couple of different places.
So I have a website it issleepwellwithmichellecom, and my
Instagram handle also is atsleepwellwithmichelle.
So I'd say those are probablythe link and they can get
straight to you.
But I have really enjoyed thisconversation.
Mel (24:22):
I'm sorry I kind of hijacked it at a few points,
because I'm busting with so manyquestions and I just, oh, I've
loved learning from you and alsorealizing, oh, I'm doing a
couple of things right, sothat's good, thank you.
Michelle (24:46):
You're welcome and thank you so much.
And one other thing I wanted tomention is I do have a code for
any of your listeners.
It is beyond organized 10.
So 10% off any of my sleepconsulting packages.
And I spelled it with an S, sofor anyone in the States I
spelled it with an S.
Mel (25:00):
How you spell it?
Mel?
For all the Americans,canadians and that part of the
world.
Sorry, I'm sorry to confuse you.
It is beyond organized with anS.
Here I do it the English way.
So thank you for that, michelle, and yeah, make the most of
that, guys.
(25:21):
It's such a great offer.
And to be able to workone-on-one with someone clearly
as knowledgeable as Michelle andas caring, I would be jumping
straight on that and I'mprobably going to be reaching
out to you myself.
Michelle (25:36):
Michelle.
Thank you so much, mel, Ireally appreciate that.
Mel (25:40):
You are welcome.
Thank you for coming on theshow and we'll talk to you soon
Sounds good, thank you.
If you loved this episode,don't forget to hit subscribe so
you don't miss what's comingnext.
And if you want to continue theconversation, you can connect
with me on Instagram at @shes.
organised, or, for some freeresources, head over to
beyondorganised.
com/ toolkit.
(26:00):
Remember, organising is a toolto live the purposeful life
beyond it.
See you next time.
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