September 14, 2025 • 30 mins
Have you ever wondered what it takes to become a judge? Or what judges really think about our legal system? In this episode, Superior Court Judge Keith Gregory takes us behind the bench to share his journey from waiting tables and writing poetry to presiding over North Carolina's most serious cases.
It’s an inside look at the challenges, responsibilities, and values that guide judges as they work to keep the system fair for everyone.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Well, welcome to Beyond the Bar with Ben Whitley,
and today's guest is JudgeKeith Gregory.
How are you doing?
Wake County Superior CourtJudge?
Appreciate it, we were justcatching up a little bit when we
got started.
I've known you for a long time,actually back to the
prosecuting days, maybe rightbefore that District Court
appointment, I believe Exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
It's been a long time , actually back to the
prosecuting days, maybe rightbefore that district court
appointment, I believe exactly.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
It's been a long time , over 20 years, yeah, and I
know that I've always known thefamily's been real important to
you.
How was, then?
Being a dad has been veryimportant to you.
Yes, how is your family doingmy son?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Carter.
As you know, he was a clefhanger at um Chapel Hill.
He graduated in 2015, had gotaccepted to law school, okay,
but he moved out to Los Angelesa month after he graduated.
So he lives in Los Angeles andworks for Capitol Records and he
has been there for the full 10years and he says Dad, I'm not
going to be a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
He's doing great.
I bet not, he's doing great.
You know, sometimes you tellpeople like you know law school
would slow you down.
I feel like Carter may be onethat law school would have
slowed him down.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yes, he definitely has found his niche or niche and
he's happy and I'm happy forhim.
How often do you go out thereand visit in LA?
I was actually out there abouttwo or three weeks ago to visit
him.
I try to go out there at leastthree times a year.
Do you like it out there?
You know, actually I do.
(01:28):
I grew up in the South, so Iwas born in Virginia and, you
know, been in North Carolinasince 1991.
I'm a Southern boy.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Carter was born here.
He was born in the South GoodSouthern roots, but he's my only
child and therefore when I getclose to retirement I'm starting
to think I'm going to move outhere to Los Angeles.
I mean, I'm not a West Coastkind of guy.
However, I can adapt.
If my son can adapt, I probablycan adapt also.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I bet so yeah, and I've kind of naturally I like
cities, like lots going on andI'm traveling, but Raleigh is,
of course, growing being youknow becoming a lot of the
things that we travel to want tohave.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So, yes, and you've lived in Raleigh a long time,
about 23 years now I came downin 91 to go to law school at
Central and was married at thetime and lived in Durham for a
year.
And then my wife at the timecame down in 92.
She was finishing her residency, right for her eyes and obgyn,
and she moved down in 92.
You know had carter in 93 andwe lived in cary.
(02:32):
Yeah, I still live in cary, soI've lived in cary the majority
of the time I've been in and youbought the.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
You know the, the acronym that everybody talks
about, the central arearelocated yankees but I'm not a
yankee no man, I'm a virginiaboy.
You probably have have toqualify yourself a couple times
when you say you're from Cary.
Now I'm a Virginia boy.
And I will say there is someWhitley lore involved here.
You have sworn in two of ourlawyers, matthew Bissett and
Chelsea Hall, and I will saythis is no offense to Matthew if
(02:57):
he is watching this, butChelsea Hall is a little bit
more famous on the TikToks.
Now you know we've got that'spretty important, but you have
to do.
That's the one thing I thinkabout when being a judge and a
politician.
I mean, do you have to get intothat social media kind of stuff
for elections?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
That's a great question.
First, chelsea, I've seen herin your commercials, yes, doing
a great job.
She's doing a great job A star.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Look, the first time they showed up Doing a great job
, she's doing a great job, astar.
The first time they showed me Iwas like a star is born.
Yes, look, I'd be glad to takea break.
You know it's tough enoughseeing myself on a bus driving
by downtown Raleigh.
I don't mind a break or two.
So yeah, that's fine, and she'sdoing a great job.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
She's doing great With the TikToks.
No, I don't involve myself withthat Now.
Carter, not only does he do thesocial media as far as his job,
but he also has become a TikTokmedia influencer.
Okay, well, we want to give alittle shout-out.
How did they find him?
Well, it's called the CarterBeam and he is.
(03:59):
Trust me, he has made a littlename for himself.
I was supposed to visit himlast summer.
I went out and he goes Dad,bring a suit and ties.
Why?
Because we're going to theWhite House.
For what?
Because I'm doing a TikTok withObama.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Great.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
And I brought my suit and tie and thought I was going
to be involved in that and thenthey told me no, no, no, it's
just Carter, just Carter.
Go back to the hotel.
Of course you're living quite alife through him, through
Carter, right Through Carter.
But as far as the social mediaand things for judges, you know
I have Facebook, right, and whenI have a campaign, not only do
(04:33):
I have Facebook, I have I thinkit's Instagram.
My campaign team will put out,you know, letting people know
that I'm up for election and soforth, but I don't do a whole
lot on social media.
I will say that for judges,since, and you know, we're not
allowed to talk about issues andso forth so it's prudent not to
post too much.
(04:55):
I don't post anything actually.
That's the easiest way to go.
Yes, Happy holidays.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, I know we were talking about elections and some
folks that may be watching theydon't realize.
Is it more interesting thatNorth Carolina elects their
judges and then beyond thatthere's partisan labels?
This is a non-political show,so don't worry everybody out
there, but is that unusual andhow does that?
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, ben that's a great question.
At some point when I firstbecame a judge, it was partisan,
Then they changed tononpartisan and then it back to
partisan.
But one thing I've said, I was adistrict court judge for eight
years, a superior court.
The last seven, when I was adistrict court judge, I never
had anybody come up to me andsay, hi, are you a Democrat or a
(05:41):
Republican?
They wanted to know.
Are you going to give me aprayer for judgment on my
speeding ticket?
Okay, and at this level inSuperior Court, candidly, they
want to know my gettingprobation or am I going to
prison?
Right, so stakes get higher.
Yes, the stakes get higher, butpolitics For the trial division
and that's district court andSuperior Court right Really
(06:01):
doesn't enter into it.
You know our job as judges areto be fair and impartial to the
state and to the defense and, inthe civil matters, the
plaintiffs and the defenseattorneys and so forth.
So politics should not play arole in what a judge usually
does, because you and I bothknow when we pass a bar exam and
(06:22):
we're licensed, nowhere does itsay that you have to be this
party or this party, and as ajudge, it doesn't say that
anywhere in the canons.
We're supposed to be fair andimpartial to everybody.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
And it seems like that has been the history a
little bit.
Unfortunately, politics hasgotten very tribal and that is
leaked into these types ofsituations, and, of course, the
best I think folks could doabout any of this is just
information, right?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, and you're so right.
You mentioned about elections.
The thing is that I trulybelieve judges should be elected
.
I think the citizens shouldvote for your judges.
I don't think, respectfully,that one branch of government
should choose judges.
I think judges should be chosenby the citizens.
(07:15):
Now, the citizens have aresponsibility, I would think,
to research judges and you cango to your board of elections
and get information about judges.
But I firmly believe that thecitizens have a right to choose
who their judges are and shouldRight.
So I respect that process.
I really am a proponent that,as I said, I don't think,
(07:36):
respectfully, one branch shouldchoose who our judges are,
because if and no disrespect tothat branch if that branch is
choosing our judges, then wewon't have, respectfully,
diversity, we won't have femalejudges, we won't have judges of
color, we we just, I think, whenyou let the citizens choose and
then they can decide who theywant to be their judge, because
(07:57):
that becomes the representativedemocracy, in the sense that the
folks that they're going toelect are going to look like
them, are going to be them intheir community and are going to
make these tough decisions.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
These are tough decisions you have to make.
You mentioned stuff about jail,but it can be bigger decisions
that you have to make.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
You know one of the things at the district court
level.
Now you know that at thedistrict court level, a district
court judge, he or she isresponsible on the criminal side
for cases like driving whileimpaired offenses, domestic
violence offenses, and on thecivil side, family law issues
and so forth.
The district court judge, he orshe, when they have bench
(08:35):
trials, they're making thosedecisions either guilty or not
guilty, or liable or not liable.
Fortunately, at the SuperiorCourt level, the jury makes
those decisions and I simply actas a gatekeeper to let you know
, decide whether what evidenceshould come in, what evidence
should not come in candidly.
I like that as a gatekeeper, tolet you know, decide what
evidence should come in and whatevidence should not come in
Candidly.
I like that role a lot betterbecause— it takes the pressure
(08:56):
off, doesn't it?
Yes, because when the lawyersand we're all lawyers but when
the lawyers are saying you knowwell, judge, you know, let the
citizens decide, let the jurydecide, and I really appreciate
that that takes the pressure offand it does, and the right
trial by jury is a very sacredright.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
It's any other bar, but that's an important one,
isn't it?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yes, but then the court has to do the heavy
lifting, obviously, when itcomes to legal issues and so
forth, and one of the thingsthat I'm very grateful for, I
think in North Carolina we havea great bar state bar.
In total, I am somewhatrespectfully, I do think of Wake
County as being a great barwithin the state, so we are
(09:35):
considered as one of the bestbars.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Right, and sometimes when we go as lawyers practicing
go to other courthouses instate that were from the Wake
County bar, we do have to worrythat that doesn't, you know,
make it change anything for us,but you know it's.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Wake County and we have the luxury of not only we
are in Wake County, where wehave the Supreme Court, the
Court of Appeals, the State Bar,the Capitol, the General
Assembly, so we have access to alot of different things here as
Wake County lawyers.
And that's not to take awayfrom the other bars, but I do
believe that you know selfishly,I think, that we are a
fantastic bar.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Well, absolutely.
I mean hometown.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
And for like just when we heard about, like the
district courts or the superiorcourts what's a?
High-level explanation, likefor someone like okay, well, you
started at the district courts,right, and that's mostly a lot
of criminal and domestic andkind of explain a little bit
about this.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well, at the at the district court level.
It's interesting because thisevening I've got to speak at an
event to talk about thedivisions.
As you're aware, we have theappellate division, which
consists of the supreme courtand the court of appeals, and
then the trial division, whichconsists of superior court and
district court.
Right At the district courtlevel, we handle misdemeanors,
(10:51):
traffic offenses, infractionsand low-level felonies On the
civil side child custody,divorce, maybe small contract
issues, and so forth.
At the Superior Court level,though, we handle all felonies,
jury trials, all misdemeanorsand infractions that are
(11:14):
appealed from district court.
Because what people may notknow?
At the district court level,when you have a trial let's say,
for example, with a drivingwhile impaired offense and you
have a trial, a bench trial,which is in front of a judge, he
or she if they find you guilty,you have a right to appeal A
trial de novo.
A new day.
(11:35):
As you're aware, they taught usa lot of Latin in law school.
They taught us a lot of Latin.
They did, and I remember mostof it.
But then you have a right tohave a jury trial with the jury
of your peers.
So at the district court level,as I said, you have bench
trials.
Now what's interesting is I'mnot sure if a lot of people
realize that on the civil side,district court judges can
(11:55):
actually have trials, jurytrials also.
They can call for juries.
Generally, the matters that arein controversy at the district
court level are $25,000 lowervalue, yes, but when you have
matters that are over $25,000,big personal injury matters,
medical malpractice thatgenerally goes to superior court
(12:18):
and you'll have a jury trialand so forth.
On the criminal side, obviouslythe most serious offense you
have is murder, first degree anddeath penalty being obviously
the highest criminal offensethat you can have.
If you are convicted of firstdegree murder and it happens to
be a capital murder trial andthe jury sentences you to death,
(12:40):
the appeal goes straight to theSupreme Court of North Carolina
and the justices will deal withthose issues.
One of the things that isinteresting and I think that we
are fortunate in this country tohave our criminal justice
system, good and bad.
We are fortunate to have itbecause we have checks and
balances, so that when I was adistrict court judge, if I,
(13:03):
let's say, for example, foundsomebody guilty of a speeding
ticket and then they appealed it, they had a trial and in
Superior Court, where that jurycould say no, no, not guilty, or
that Superior Court judge couldsay, well, I'm sorry, judge
Gregory did not apply the lawcorrectly and they could dismiss
the matter Further.
(13:25):
At this level, the SuperiorCourt level, we still have
checks and balances where, whenyou have serious matters or
regardless of any, matterserious or any citizen.
first of all, make sure I'msaying that correctly.
But let's say, for example,with an armed robbery and the
jury finds the person guilty andI've made rulings along the way
throughout the trial and thatperson appeals.
(13:45):
Well, the checks and balances,the Court of Appeals will look
at what I've done.
They're not going to have ajury trial, they're grading my
papers.
essentially, they're looking atit If asked, if asked, if asked.
That's a very important point.
If they are asked, ie appealedto and they will say you know,
(14:05):
yay or nay, gregory, you gavethe right ruling or you didn't.
Yay or nay, gregory gave theright ruling or you didn't Then,
if possible, if asked and ifthe Supreme Court takes it, that
matter could go to the SupremeCourt if you aren't satisfied
with the ruling you received atthe Court of Appeals level and
done there, and therefore theSupreme Court will look at what
(14:26):
the Court of Appeals said anddecide well, they were right or
wrong.
And you can go deeper and say,well, decide, well, they were
right or wrong.
And you can go deeper and say,well, gregory were right or
wrong.
But once again, the SupremeCourt does not have jury trials.
They simply just like the Courtof Appeals.
It's a question of law.
Right, has the court, the trialcourt, applied the right law?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
well, look at the accurate.
Carter had his moment when hedecided he wasn't gonna be a
lawyer, which would have, whichworked out pretty good for him,
very good.
What was the moment you hadwhen you were going to be a
lawyer?
Speaker 2 (14:56):
You know, ben, now I probably shouldn't say this, but
I will.
You mentioned Carter.
You know, when I graduated, Iwent to the University of
Virginia as an undergrad.
I graduated in 1988.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And at that time you date Well it's okay, you can
date yourself.
I'm dating myself.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But at that time I had no idea.
I never thought about lawschool but you know I was kind
of waiting tables and writingpoetry Waiting tables.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Now we'll just pause there.
Yes, sir, I did that allthrough college.
I went to UNC, chapel Hill abig rival of UVA, yes, yes, but
I waited.
I learned more about peopleWaiting tables and I did at law
school and and therefore, likehow you know, you probably got
more tips than I did.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I waited tables.
I wasn't a good waiter.
Okay, yeah, probably that moretips that's about well we'll get
.
We can see on this off, but no,okay, but no, I you know, after
three years you know kind ofyou know waiting tables and kind
of, like I said, writing poetryand so forth.
I started getting more serious.
So then I said I'm going to goahead and go to law school and
when I got into law school.
(16:00):
It wasn't now.
Some people like law school,and I'm not disparaging.
I wasn't one of those peoplethat really liked law school.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Oh, come on, but you went back for more.
No, no, you went back.
You got a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, I'll add to that.
I did after I graduated yearslater went back and got a
master's in judicial studies.
That did.
But I think it was in my secondyear when I took trial ad and
we had to, I thought candidly Ithought I'd be the type of
lawyer that would sit behind adesk.
I never go into a courtroom andyou know, I don't want to be in
front of a jury.
(16:32):
After I took trial ad and wehad to actually have a mock
trial and so forth, that's whenI realized it.
You know what I don't mindbeing in a court.
I want to actually find out.
You're good at this well,hopefully.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, that's what you know, the things you could be
passionate about you end up andbe good.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yes, yes and so when I graduated law school, I wanted
to be in the courtroom Right,and my very first job was as an
assistant public defender.
I was commuting back and forthfrom Cary to Fayetteville and I
was getting courtroom time, butnot a lot Right.
When I got the job in the DA'soffice here in Wake County,
working for Colin Willoughby, Ihad the opportunity to try a lot
(17:10):
of cases.
I just got a lot of time tocall him.
Oh my gosh, I lived in it.
They throw you in there.
You know it's like sink or swim.
You know the first couple ofdays Figure it out.
Figure it out, you get a littledirection, you know when you're
in district court, da, but onceyou're in there it's sink or
fire, right, but that was thebest experience for me.
You know they're not going tostart you off with first degree
(17:32):
murder.
Right, you're going to start offwith speeding tickets and, you
know, infractions and so forth.
Work your way up, work your wayup.
But when I got to SuperiorCourt as a prosecutor handling,
you know, felonies and so forthand doing a lot of jury trials I
truly enjoyed that aspect of it.
And then I did 10 years inprivate practice for criminal
defense and focused mainly ondoing jury trials.
(17:52):
So I did tons of jury trials.
So by the time, after 15 yearsof being in trial experience in
the courtroom, trying everythingfrom a speeding ticket to the
death penalty jury trials, itwas time for me to say you know
what I want to try somethingelse.
And at that point, a judicialseat district court seat had
(18:14):
been created and, by the graceof God, governor Perdue
appointed me to the districtcourt bench in February of 2010
and then had to stand forelection.
And just so people know, inNorth Carolina, judges are
elected by the citizens.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
However, you can be appointed by the governor If
there's a vacancy or if a spothasn't been opened, but then has
to stand for re-election,Exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So some people get that confused.
They're like well, are youappointed or elected?
I was appointed in February of2010, but I had to stand for
election in November of 2010.
So I had opposition.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I would think as a resume of a candidate that for a
judge at least.
Now some judges don't have asmuch jury trial experience, but
that's pretty important.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
I mean, that's a big part of the background and you
know, ben, you're so right onthat because you know you and I
both know in North Carolina youcan graduate law school, pass
the bar exam and you can run forjudge and be elected, and if
(19:24):
the people elect you, I respectthe process.
But if the people elect you,you have no experience as a
lawyer, no experience as a judge.
But your only experience is Igraduated law school, passed the
bar exam and people voted forme.
In a current heartbeat I won'tcomment any further, but I will
say this I think when I actuallybecame a judge, after 15 years
of trial experience, I was 44years old, I had some life
(19:45):
experiences.
I had a son, had gone through adivorce, all those kind of
things that gave me perspectiveand maturity in the sense of
when I was dealing with districtcourt matters.
Because you're dealing withpeople, people, things Exactly A
lot of people things Exactlyand you know when people come
into your courtroom, they're notcoming on their best day.
You know I don't care if it's aspeeding ticket, I don't care
(20:07):
if it's a driving law licenserevoked or assault on female
Right and that war in criminalsuperior court.
If it's something more serious.
They're not coming on theirbest day and they want judges to
be fair, to be impartial, notto.
You know this.
(20:27):
When you walk into a courtroomand I hope I can say this to
people that are listening,especially the lawyers that come
into my courtroom when you openthat door to that courtroom and
you see that judge, you say toyourself it's going to be a good
day or it's going to be a badday, depending on how that judge
and how that judge runs thatcourtroom.
(20:50):
Now, I'm notorious for makingsure guys tuck their shirt tails
and pull their pants up.
However, I want the lawyers tobe able to do their work in an
environment where they canactually do the things they're
trained to do, and I think it'sincumbent on the judge to
provide that arena.
For example, in a jury trial, Idon't question jurors.
(21:12):
That's the lawyer's job.
My job is just to call theballs and strikes.
The way I see it, if I want toget back on the field, then get
back on the field, be aprosecutor, be a defense
attorney.
But since you're not on thefield, just call the balls and
strikes and let the lawyershandle their cases.
Don't try to tell lawyers howto try their cases.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
I totally and let me in, because you get to see a lot
of what's some advice you haveto some young lawyers,
middle-aged lawyers, olderlawyers, especially younger
lawyers I mean, they're comingup in a different time well, you
and I, we have been around wella long time.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, we're the same, we're contemporary, we're
contemporaries but when younglawyers and I think you would
agree with this, one of thethings that I was taught, you
know 30 years ago treat yourclerks and your deputies.
And when you get to SuperiorCourt, your court reporters
treat them good.
When you one thing, you'll spotas a judge, you know who the
(22:10):
new lawyers are.
Yeah, because the new lawyerswill come in.
They don't know where there's afair and you see that, look in
their eyes and it's like, yeah,that's a new lawyer.
Yeah, the best thing they cando for themselves is introduce
themselves to the deputies orclerks and court reporters and
so forth.
Just because those people havebeen in the courtroom for years,
they can help you.
(22:31):
If you come in with an attitudeof I'm a lawyer now and I just
passed the bar exam and I knowthis, I know that you're're
gonna make things a lot harderfor yourself.
So I think, humility, you walkin with humility and you
maintain that humility.
I will tell you this, for whenI was a prosecutor, defense
attorney now as well became adistrict court judge and a
(22:52):
superior court judge.
The court reporters, thedeputies and the sheriffs I mean
deputies are redundant.
The deputies and the sheriffs Imean deputies is redundant.
The deputies and the clerksthey have helped me tremendously
, so I've never forgotten thatlesson no, or probably.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
you see how.
It's just how people treatother people.
Yes, Common sense it's commonsense right, and those folks
have all that lore and know howthis judge is, and so it's
helpful to get that.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Very much so, because they will let you know how this
judge does things, how otherjudges do, and they give you all
the insight and they're willingto help you if you ask.
So I think that's the biggestpiece of advice I would give to
young lawyers.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Now middle-aged lawyers, lawyers such as
ourselves.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I will say this at this point in the game hopefully
, if you've been practicing thislong, you have right.
If you have bad habits andthose habits are still bad, then
you know I feel sorry for you,right?
Hopefully you don't developgood habits so that you know
that, um, you can impartknowledge on younger lawyers.
I will say this, though I thinkit's important that you never
(23:57):
lose, when you're in thatcourtroom, that idea of you know
it's still, it's still one ofthose things.
When you walk into a courtroom,it is intimidating, sure, and I
don't know how to beintimidating.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Your air is a little bit higher than there's the big
image, but it's a decorum right,yeah, you were in that black
road.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
But you know, um know , Ben, I actually, as I'm
speaking tonight, I did someresearch on the history of North
Carolina courts.
Yeah, and you know that theNorth Carolina Superior Court is
the oldest court out of all thecourts.
People think the SupremeCourt's oldest.
It was the Supreme Court.
The oldest court is theSuperior Court and it began in
1777.
(24:38):
The oldest court is theSuperior Court and it began in
1777.
Originally, before we hadcourts, it was King Charles or
King Edward II that when hegranted—Carolina was a province
Right and he granted, I believe,six or seven something of that
nature districts to six or sevennoblemen to create their little
(25:00):
courts.
When you appealed a matter,then you didn't go to a court of
appeals or a Supreme Court.
You didn't have those.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
You actually had to go back to England for the
appeal and that would take alittle bit of time.
People complain now about howlong appeals stay right.
Four years, eight years, itwould take a long time People
long dead before they get thatback.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
It would take a long time.
So then, after we declared ourindependence in 1776, then in
1777, that's when the NorthCarolina Superior Courts were
created In 1819, then we had thecreation of the Supreme Court,
and that was out of you know, Ithink it was out of several
Superior Court judges that thenthe General Assembly appointed
(25:43):
three to be Supreme Courtjustices and within those three
they chose the Chief Justice.
The Court of Appeals came aboutin 1967 to lessen the load for
the Supreme Court Exactly, andthen district court came about
in 1966.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I'm glad.
Well, you've got the historynow.
I've got the history now.
You ready for your talk?
I think I'm ready for my talk.
I hope so.
I hope so, all right, well, sowhat do you do to not be a judge
?
What's your down time?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
See, you know that was one of those questions I
wasn't prepared for.
Oh, I had to sneak one in.
Well, you know candidly whenand you know this too, being in
that courtroom people wouldthink that, well, you guys
aren't doing any heavy physicallifting.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
No, the lawyers are doing in the court.
Sometimes it's okay that wewant to lay on the couch after
work and just stay, and that'swhat.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I do.
That's what I do Because you,literally, when you're dealing
with serious issues and, like Isaid, every issue is serious to
the people that are involved thelawyers obviously can keep the
courts feet to the fire, becausethe lawyers and one of the
things is this we have to alsounderstand that judges we're
(27:00):
just lawyers.
We're just lawyers who happento be elected as judges.
So, therefore, just because youdon that black robe does not
make you smarter.
And I will say this if and nooffense, but if you are, um,
let's say, super jerk before youput the robe on, you become
super, super jerk oh is that.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Oh, that makes sense I would work.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I always like this session.
So the accelerator, it's anaccelerator accelerator.
Therefore I like to, especiallyin civil court.
But you know my backgrounds,you know prosecution on
prosecution of criminal defense.
When I became a Superior Courtjudge, I took on the position
that these civil lawyers knowthat Judge Gregory doesn't do a
(27:42):
lot of civil work and thereforeI knew that.
They knew that.
So do you guys help?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
me yeah and you get that right.
Lawyers you trusted could helpand lawyers to have that role to
educate judges yes, and thenthat and that's when they're
just explaining it then?
Yes, and you found that that'spart of what the process is and
that's not offensive to me,because the yes and you found
that that's part of what theprocess is and that's not
offensive to me because, the wayI see it, if you live with your
case forever and then you bringthat case in front of me, you
(28:08):
know your case, I know that case.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
You know that case, it would be egregious on my part
not to expect you to explain tome what you believe the law is
and so forth, and me not tolisten.
It's more helpful, actually,when I'm dealing with the civil
lawyers.
They really do educate me oncivil law and civil procedure
and so forth, and I do mystudying and so forth, but
(28:30):
you've got to go from subject.
You may have to go from one dayto the subject matter here.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Subject matter here, I mean that's a lot to keep in
there.
Yes, yes, you know, in somestates, I was talking to someone
.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I think, it was in New York where you might sit as
a judge for 14 years and all youdo is criminal work or all you
do is civil.
In North Carolina, as you know,we do both and you get to move
around some too.
Yes, that's a very good point.
In Superior Court, since theinception of the creation of
Superior Court, of the creationof Superior Court, Judges drove
(29:00):
horse and buggy to I think itwas like six districts at the
time and they would sit in thosedistricts for six months and
then go to the next district.
Well, we have been doing thatsince then, so we travel.
I'm in Fayetteville now and Iwill come back to Wake County.
We sit in six-month periods.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
You know we have 100 counties and that's a little bit
of traveling, yeah, and theChief Justice can send us
anywhere he needs us, butgenerally we get our schedules
five years in advance, so weknow where we're going to be so
listen, here's a new traditionthat we have here on the show I,
because we know you have a busyschedule, sir, I can't, I don't
want to get distracted, sothrow a rubber band at me when
it's time to run I saw him doingthat.
(29:40):
So, judge Gregory, I appreciateit.
This was good and as peopleneed to know better information
about our elected judges and tovote when that comes out.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Vote, please vote.
It's important.
I thank you, ben, for that.
It's important.
I will conclude with this, andI'm not being political, but, um
, there are three pin branchesof government, three independent
branches of government and we,as citizens of North Carolina
and this country, should welcomethat no branch is greater than
(30:10):
the other branch the legislature.
They create the law, theexecutive enforces the law and
the judicial interprets the law.
But when I'll say this, vote,vote, vote.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
That's important believe it or that?
Gregory, I really do appreciate.
Appreciate by tuning in todayfor beyond the bar.
Join in next time for beyondthe bar.
Thank you.
Well, welcome to Beyond the Bar with Ben Whitley,
and today's guest is JudgeKeith Gregory.
How are you doing?
Wake County Superior CourtJudge?
Appreciate it, we were justcatching up a little bit when we
got started.
I've known you for a long time,actually back to the
prosecuting days, maybe rightbefore that District Court
appointment, I believe Exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
It's been a long time , actually back to the
prosecuting days, maybe rightbefore that district court
appointment, I believe exactly.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
It's been a long time , over 20 years, yeah, and I
know that I've always known thefamily's been real important to
you.
How was, then?
Being a dad has been veryimportant to you.
Yes, how is your family doingmy son?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Carter.
As you know, he was a clefhanger at um Chapel Hill.
He graduated in 2015, had gotaccepted to law school, okay,
but he moved out to Los Angelesa month after he graduated.
So he lives in Los Angeles andworks for Capitol Records and he
has been there for the full 10years and he says Dad, I'm not
going to be a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
He's doing great.
I bet not, he's doing great.
You know, sometimes you tellpeople like you know law school
would slow you down.
I feel like Carter may be onethat law school would have
slowed him down.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yes, he definitely has found his niche or niche and
he's happy and I'm happy forhim.
How often do you go out thereand visit in LA?
I was actually out there abouttwo or three weeks ago to visit
him.
I try to go out there at leastthree times a year.
Do you like it out there?
You know, actually I do.
(01:28):
I grew up in the South, so Iwas born in Virginia and, you
know, been in North Carolinasince 1991.
I'm a Southern boy.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Carter was born here.
He was born in the South GoodSouthern roots, but he's my only
child and therefore when I getclose to retirement I'm starting
to think I'm going to move outhere to Los Angeles.
I mean, I'm not a West Coastkind of guy.
However, I can adapt.
If my son can adapt, I probablycan adapt also.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I bet so yeah, and I've kind of naturally I like
cities, like lots going on andI'm traveling, but Raleigh is,
of course, growing being youknow becoming a lot of the
things that we travel to want tohave.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So, yes, and you've lived in Raleigh a long time,
about 23 years now I came downin 91 to go to law school at
Central and was married at thetime and lived in Durham for a
year.
And then my wife at the timecame down in 92.
She was finishing her residency, right for her eyes and obgyn,
and she moved down in 92.
You know had carter in 93 andwe lived in cary.
(02:32):
Yeah, I still live in cary, soI've lived in cary the majority
of the time I've been in and youbought the.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
You know the, the acronym that everybody talks
about, the central arearelocated yankees but I'm not a
yankee no man, I'm a virginiaboy.
You probably have have toqualify yourself a couple times
when you say you're from Cary.
Now I'm a Virginia boy.
And I will say there is someWhitley lore involved here.
You have sworn in two of ourlawyers, matthew Bissett and
Chelsea Hall, and I will saythis is no offense to Matthew if
(02:57):
he is watching this, butChelsea Hall is a little bit
more famous on the TikToks.
Now you know we've got that'spretty important, but you have
to do.
That's the one thing I thinkabout when being a judge and a
politician.
I mean, do you have to get intothat social media kind of stuff
for elections?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
That's a great question.
First, chelsea, I've seen herin your commercials, yes, doing
a great job.
She's doing a great job A star.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Look, the first time they showed up Doing a great job
, she's doing a great job, astar.
The first time they showed me Iwas like a star is born.
Yes, look, I'd be glad to takea break.
You know it's tough enoughseeing myself on a bus driving
by downtown Raleigh.
I don't mind a break or two.
So yeah, that's fine, and she'sdoing a great job.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
She's doing great With the TikToks.
No, I don't involve myself withthat Now.
Carter, not only does he do thesocial media as far as his job,
but he also has become a TikTokmedia influencer.
Okay, well, we want to give alittle shout-out.
How did they find him?
Well, it's called the CarterBeam and he is.
(03:59):
Trust me, he has made a littlename for himself.
I was supposed to visit himlast summer.
I went out and he goes Dad,bring a suit and ties.
Why?
Because we're going to theWhite House.
For what?
Because I'm doing a TikTok withObama.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Great.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
And I brought my suit and tie and thought I was going
to be involved in that and thenthey told me no, no, no, it's
just Carter, just Carter.
Go back to the hotel.
Of course you're living quite alife through him, through
Carter, right Through Carter.
But as far as the social mediaand things for judges, you know
I have Facebook, right, and whenI have a campaign, not only do
(04:33):
I have Facebook, I have I thinkit's Instagram.
My campaign team will put out,you know, letting people know
that I'm up for election and soforth, but I don't do a whole
lot on social media.
I will say that for judges,since, and you know, we're not
allowed to talk about issues andso forth so it's prudent not to
post too much.
(04:55):
I don't post anything actually.
That's the easiest way to go.
Yes, Happy holidays.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, I know we were talking about elections and some
folks that may be watching theydon't realize.
Is it more interesting thatNorth Carolina elects their
judges and then beyond thatthere's partisan labels?
This is a non-political show,so don't worry everybody out
there, but is that unusual andhow does that?
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, ben that's a great question.
At some point when I firstbecame a judge, it was partisan,
Then they changed tononpartisan and then it back to
partisan.
But one thing I've said, I was adistrict court judge for eight
years, a superior court.
The last seven, when I was adistrict court judge, I never
had anybody come up to me andsay, hi, are you a Democrat or a
(05:41):
Republican?
They wanted to know.
Are you going to give me aprayer for judgment on my
speeding ticket?
Okay, and at this level inSuperior Court, candidly, they
want to know my gettingprobation or am I going to
prison?
Right, so stakes get higher.
Yes, the stakes get higher, butpolitics For the trial division
and that's district court andSuperior Court right Really
(06:01):
doesn't enter into it.
You know our job as judges areto be fair and impartial to the
state and to the defense and, inthe civil matters, the
plaintiffs and the defenseattorneys and so forth.
So politics should not play arole in what a judge usually
does, because you and I bothknow when we pass a bar exam and
(06:22):
we're licensed, nowhere does itsay that you have to be this
party or this party, and as ajudge, it doesn't say that
anywhere in the canons.
We're supposed to be fair andimpartial to everybody.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
And it seems like that has been the history a
little bit.
Unfortunately, politics hasgotten very tribal and that is
leaked into these types ofsituations, and, of course, the
best I think folks could doabout any of this is just
information, right?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, and you're so right.
You mentioned about elections.
The thing is that I trulybelieve judges should be elected
.
I think the citizens shouldvote for your judges.
I don't think, respectfully,that one branch of government
should choose judges.
I think judges should be chosenby the citizens.
(07:15):
Now, the citizens have aresponsibility, I would think,
to research judges and you cango to your board of elections
and get information about judges.
But I firmly believe that thecitizens have a right to choose
who their judges are and shouldRight.
So I respect that process.
I really am a proponent that,as I said, I don't think,
(07:36):
respectfully, one branch shouldchoose who our judges are,
because if and no disrespect tothat branch if that branch is
choosing our judges, then wewon't have, respectfully,
diversity, we won't have femalejudges, we won't have judges of
color, we we just, I think, whenyou let the citizens choose and
then they can decide who theywant to be their judge, because
(07:57):
that becomes the representativedemocracy, in the sense that the
folks that they're going toelect are going to look like
them, are going to be them intheir community and are going to
make these tough decisions.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
These are tough decisions you have to make.
You mentioned stuff about jail,but it can be bigger decisions
that you have to make.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
You know one of the things at the district court
level.
Now you know that at thedistrict court level, a district
court judge, he or she isresponsible on the criminal side
for cases like driving whileimpaired offenses, domestic
violence offenses, and on thecivil side, family law issues
and so forth.
The district court judge, he orshe, when they have bench
(08:35):
trials, they're making thosedecisions either guilty or not
guilty, or liable or not liable.
Fortunately, at the SuperiorCourt level, the jury makes
those decisions and I simply actas a gatekeeper to let you know
, decide whether what evidenceshould come in, what evidence
should not come in candidly.
I like that as a gatekeeper, tolet you know, decide what
evidence should come in and whatevidence should not come in
Candidly.
I like that role a lot betterbecause— it takes the pressure
(08:56):
off, doesn't it?
Yes, because when the lawyersand we're all lawyers but when
the lawyers are saying you knowwell, judge, you know, let the
citizens decide, let the jurydecide, and I really appreciate
that that takes the pressure offand it does, and the right
trial by jury is a very sacredright.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
It's any other bar, but that's an important one,
isn't it?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yes, but then the court has to do the heavy
lifting, obviously, when itcomes to legal issues and so
forth, and one of the thingsthat I'm very grateful for, I
think in North Carolina we havea great bar state bar.
In total, I am somewhatrespectfully, I do think of Wake
County as being a great barwithin the state, so we are
(09:35):
considered as one of the bestbars.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Right, and sometimes when we go as lawyers practicing
go to other courthouses instate that were from the Wake
County bar, we do have to worrythat that doesn't, you know,
make it change anything for us,but you know it's.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Wake County and we have the luxury of not only we
are in Wake County, where wehave the Supreme Court, the
Court of Appeals, the State Bar,the Capitol, the General
Assembly, so we have access to alot of different things here as
Wake County lawyers.
And that's not to take awayfrom the other bars, but I do
believe that you know selfishly,I think, that we are a
fantastic bar.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Well, absolutely.
I mean hometown.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
And for like just when we heard about, like the
district courts or the superiorcourts what's a?
High-level explanation, likefor someone like okay, well, you
started at the district courts,right, and that's mostly a lot
of criminal and domestic andkind of explain a little bit
about this.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well, at the at the district court level.
It's interesting because thisevening I've got to speak at an
event to talk about thedivisions.
As you're aware, we have theappellate division, which
consists of the supreme courtand the court of appeals, and
then the trial division, whichconsists of superior court and
district court.
Right At the district courtlevel, we handle misdemeanors,
(10:51):
traffic offenses, infractionsand low-level felonies On the
civil side child custody,divorce, maybe small contract
issues, and so forth.
At the Superior Court level,though, we handle all felonies,
jury trials, all misdemeanorsand infractions that are
(11:14):
appealed from district court.
Because what people may notknow?
At the district court level,when you have a trial let's say,
for example, with a drivingwhile impaired offense and you
have a trial, a bench trial,which is in front of a judge, he
or she if they find you guilty,you have a right to appeal A
trial de novo.
A new day.
(11:35):
As you're aware, they taught usa lot of Latin in law school.
They taught us a lot of Latin.
They did, and I remember mostof it.
But then you have a right tohave a jury trial with the jury
of your peers.
So at the district court level,as I said, you have bench
trials.
Now what's interesting is I'mnot sure if a lot of people
realize that on the civil side,district court judges can
(11:55):
actually have trials, jurytrials also.
They can call for juries.
Generally, the matters that arein controversy at the district
court level are $25,000 lowervalue, yes, but when you have
matters that are over $25,000,big personal injury matters,
medical malpractice thatgenerally goes to superior court
(12:18):
and you'll have a jury trialand so forth.
On the criminal side, obviouslythe most serious offense you
have is murder, first degree anddeath penalty being obviously
the highest criminal offensethat you can have.
If you are convicted of firstdegree murder and it happens to
be a capital murder trial andthe jury sentences you to death,
(12:40):
the appeal goes straight to theSupreme Court of North Carolina
and the justices will deal withthose issues.
One of the things that isinteresting and I think that we
are fortunate in this country tohave our criminal justice
system, good and bad.
We are fortunate to have itbecause we have checks and
balances, so that when I was adistrict court judge, if I,
(13:03):
let's say, for example, foundsomebody guilty of a speeding
ticket and then they appealed it, they had a trial and in
Superior Court, where that jurycould say no, no, not guilty, or
that Superior Court judge couldsay, well, I'm sorry, judge
Gregory did not apply the lawcorrectly and they could dismiss
the matter Further.
(13:25):
At this level, the SuperiorCourt level, we still have
checks and balances where, whenyou have serious matters or
regardless of any, matterserious or any citizen.
first of all, make sure I'msaying that correctly.
But let's say, for example,with an armed robbery and the
jury finds the person guilty andI've made rulings along the way
throughout the trial and thatperson appeals.
(13:45):
Well, the checks and balances,the Court of Appeals will look
at what I've done.
They're not going to have ajury trial, they're grading my
papers.
essentially, they're looking atit If asked, if asked, if asked.
That's a very important point.
If they are asked, ie appealedto and they will say you know,
(14:05):
yay or nay, gregory, you gavethe right ruling or you didn't.
Yay or nay, gregory gave theright ruling or you didn't Then,
if possible, if asked and ifthe Supreme Court takes it, that
matter could go to the SupremeCourt if you aren't satisfied
with the ruling you received atthe Court of Appeals level and
done there, and therefore theSupreme Court will look at what
(14:26):
the Court of Appeals said anddecide well, they were right or
wrong.
And you can go deeper and say,well, decide, well, they were
right or wrong.
And you can go deeper and say,well, gregory were right or
wrong.
But once again, the SupremeCourt does not have jury trials.
They simply just like the Courtof Appeals.
It's a question of law.
Right, has the court, the trialcourt, applied the right law?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
well, look at the accurate.
Carter had his moment when hedecided he wasn't gonna be a
lawyer, which would have, whichworked out pretty good for him,
very good.
What was the moment you hadwhen you were going to be a
lawyer?
Speaker 2 (14:56):
You know, ben, now I probably shouldn't say this, but
I will.
You mentioned Carter.
You know, when I graduated, Iwent to the University of
Virginia as an undergrad.
I graduated in 1988.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And at that time you date Well it's okay, you can
date yourself.
I'm dating myself.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But at that time I had no idea.
I never thought about lawschool but you know I was kind
of waiting tables and writingpoetry Waiting tables.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Now we'll just pause there.
Yes, sir, I did that allthrough college.
I went to UNC, chapel Hill abig rival of UVA, yes, yes, but
I waited.
I learned more about peopleWaiting tables and I did at law
school and and therefore, likehow you know, you probably got
more tips than I did.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I waited tables.
I wasn't a good waiter.
Okay, yeah, probably that moretips that's about well we'll get
.
We can see on this off, but no,okay, but no, I you know, after
three years you know kind ofyou know waiting tables and kind
of, like I said, writing poetryand so forth.
I started getting more serious.
So then I said I'm going to goahead and go to law school and
when I got into law school.
(16:00):
It wasn't now.
Some people like law school,and I'm not disparaging.
I wasn't one of those peoplethat really liked law school.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Oh, come on, but you went back for more.
No, no, you went back.
You got a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, I'll add to that.
I did after I graduated yearslater went back and got a
master's in judicial studies.
That did.
But I think it was in my secondyear when I took trial ad and
we had to, I thought candidly Ithought I'd be the type of
lawyer that would sit behind adesk.
I never go into a courtroom andyou know, I don't want to be in
front of a jury.
(16:32):
After I took trial ad and wehad to actually have a mock
trial and so forth, that's whenI realized it.
You know what I don't mindbeing in a court.
I want to actually find out.
You're good at this well,hopefully.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, that's what you know, the things you could be
passionate about you end up andbe good.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yes, yes and so when I graduated law school, I wanted
to be in the courtroom Right,and my very first job was as an
assistant public defender.
I was commuting back and forthfrom Cary to Fayetteville and I
was getting courtroom time, butnot a lot Right.
When I got the job in the DA'soffice here in Wake County,
working for Colin Willoughby, Ihad the opportunity to try a lot
(17:10):
of cases.
I just got a lot of time tocall him.
Oh my gosh, I lived in it.
They throw you in there.
You know it's like sink or swim.
You know the first couple ofdays Figure it out.
Figure it out, you get a littledirection, you know when you're
in district court, da, but onceyou're in there it's sink or
fire, right, but that was thebest experience for me.
You know they're not going tostart you off with first degree
(17:32):
murder.
Right, you're going to start offwith speeding tickets and, you
know, infractions and so forth.
Work your way up, work your wayup.
But when I got to SuperiorCourt as a prosecutor handling,
you know, felonies and so forthand doing a lot of jury trials I
truly enjoyed that aspect of it.
And then I did 10 years inprivate practice for criminal
defense and focused mainly ondoing jury trials.
(17:52):
So I did tons of jury trials.
So by the time, after 15 yearsof being in trial experience in
the courtroom, trying everythingfrom a speeding ticket to the
death penalty jury trials, itwas time for me to say you know
what I want to try somethingelse.
And at that point, a judicialseat district court seat had
(18:14):
been created and, by the graceof God, governor Perdue
appointed me to the districtcourt bench in February of 2010
and then had to stand forelection.
And just so people know, inNorth Carolina, judges are
elected by the citizens.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
However, you can be appointed by the governor If
there's a vacancy or if a spothasn't been opened, but then has
to stand for re-election,Exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So some people get that confused.
They're like well, are youappointed or elected?
I was appointed in February of2010, but I had to stand for
election in November of 2010.
So I had opposition.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I would think as a resume of a candidate that for a
judge at least.
Now some judges don't have asmuch jury trial experience, but
that's pretty important.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
I mean, that's a big part of the background and you
know, ben, you're so right onthat because you know you and I
both know in North Carolina youcan graduate law school, pass
the bar exam and you can run forjudge and be elected, and if
(19:24):
the people elect you, I respectthe process.
But if the people elect you,you have no experience as a
lawyer, no experience as a judge.
But your only experience is Igraduated law school, passed the
bar exam and people voted forme.
In a current heartbeat I won'tcomment any further, but I will
say this I think when I actuallybecame a judge, after 15 years
of trial experience, I was 44years old, I had some life
(19:45):
experiences.
I had a son, had gone through adivorce, all those kind of
things that gave me perspectiveand maturity in the sense of
when I was dealing with districtcourt matters.
Because you're dealing withpeople, people, things Exactly A
lot of people things Exactlyand you know when people come
into your courtroom, they're notcoming on their best day.
You know I don't care if it's aspeeding ticket, I don't care
(20:07):
if it's a driving law licenserevoked or assault on female
Right and that war in criminalsuperior court.
If it's something more serious.
They're not coming on theirbest day and they want judges to
be fair, to be impartial, notto.
You know this.
(20:27):
When you walk into a courtroomand I hope I can say this to
people that are listening,especially the lawyers that come
into my courtroom when you openthat door to that courtroom and
you see that judge, you say toyourself it's going to be a good
day or it's going to be a badday, depending on how that judge
and how that judge runs thatcourtroom.
(20:50):
Now, I'm notorious for makingsure guys tuck their shirt tails
and pull their pants up.
However, I want the lawyers tobe able to do their work in an
environment where they canactually do the things they're
trained to do, and I think it'sincumbent on the judge to
provide that arena.
For example, in a jury trial, Idon't question jurors.
(21:12):
That's the lawyer's job.
My job is just to call theballs and strikes.
The way I see it, if I want toget back on the field, then get
back on the field, be aprosecutor, be a defense
attorney.
But since you're not on thefield, just call the balls and
strikes and let the lawyershandle their cases.
Don't try to tell lawyers howto try their cases.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
I totally and let me in, because you get to see a lot
of what's some advice you haveto some young lawyers,
middle-aged lawyers, olderlawyers, especially younger
lawyers I mean, they're comingup in a different time well, you
and I, we have been around wella long time.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, we're the same, we're contemporary, we're
contemporaries but when younglawyers and I think you would
agree with this, one of thethings that I was taught, you
know 30 years ago treat yourclerks and your deputies.
And when you get to SuperiorCourt, your court reporters
treat them good.
When you one thing, you'll spotas a judge, you know who the
(22:10):
new lawyers are.
Yeah, because the new lawyerswill come in.
They don't know where there's afair and you see that, look in
their eyes and it's like, yeah,that's a new lawyer.
Yeah, the best thing they cando for themselves is introduce
themselves to the deputies orclerks and court reporters and
so forth.
Just because those people havebeen in the courtroom for years,
they can help you.
(22:31):
If you come in with an attitudeof I'm a lawyer now and I just
passed the bar exam and I knowthis, I know that you're're
gonna make things a lot harderfor yourself.
So I think, humility, you walkin with humility and you
maintain that humility.
I will tell you this, for whenI was a prosecutor, defense
attorney now as well became adistrict court judge and a
(22:52):
superior court judge.
The court reporters, thedeputies and the sheriffs I mean
deputies are redundant.
The deputies and the sheriffs Imean deputies is redundant.
The deputies and the clerksthey have helped me tremendously
, so I've never forgotten thatlesson no, or probably.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
you see how.
It's just how people treatother people.
Yes, Common sense it's commonsense right, and those folks
have all that lore and know howthis judge is, and so it's
helpful to get that.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Very much so, because they will let you know how this
judge does things, how otherjudges do, and they give you all
the insight and they're willingto help you if you ask.
So I think that's the biggestpiece of advice I would give to
young lawyers.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Now middle-aged lawyers, lawyers such as
ourselves.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I will say this at this point in the game hopefully
, if you've been practicing thislong, you have right.
If you have bad habits andthose habits are still bad, then
you know I feel sorry for you,right?
Hopefully you don't developgood habits so that you know
that, um, you can impartknowledge on younger lawyers.
I will say this, though I thinkit's important that you never
(23:57):
lose, when you're in thatcourtroom, that idea of you know
it's still, it's still one ofthose things.
When you walk into a courtroom,it is intimidating, sure, and I
don't know how to beintimidating.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Your air is a little bit higher than there's the big
image, but it's a decorum right,yeah, you were in that black
road.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
But you know, um know , Ben, I actually, as I'm
speaking tonight, I did someresearch on the history of North
Carolina courts.
Yeah, and you know that theNorth Carolina Superior Court is
the oldest court out of all thecourts.
People think the SupremeCourt's oldest.
It was the Supreme Court.
The oldest court is theSuperior Court and it began in
1777.
(24:38):
The oldest court is theSuperior Court and it began in
1777.
Originally, before we hadcourts, it was King Charles or
King Edward II that when hegranted—Carolina was a province
Right and he granted, I believe,six or seven something of that
nature districts to six or sevennoblemen to create their little
(25:00):
courts.
When you appealed a matter,then you didn't go to a court of
appeals or a Supreme Court.
You didn't have those.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
You actually had to go back to England for the
appeal and that would take alittle bit of time.
People complain now about howlong appeals stay right.
Four years, eight years, itwould take a long time People
long dead before they get thatback.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
It would take a long time.
So then, after we declared ourindependence in 1776, then in
1777, that's when the NorthCarolina Superior Courts were
created In 1819, then we had thecreation of the Supreme Court,
and that was out of you know, Ithink it was out of several
Superior Court judges that thenthe General Assembly appointed
(25:43):
three to be Supreme Courtjustices and within those three
they chose the Chief Justice.
The Court of Appeals came aboutin 1967 to lessen the load for
the Supreme Court Exactly, andthen district court came about
in 1966.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I'm glad.
Well, you've got the historynow.
I've got the history now.
You ready for your talk?
I think I'm ready for my talk.
I hope so.
I hope so, all right, well, sowhat do you do to not be a judge
?
What's your down time?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
See, you know that was one of those questions I
wasn't prepared for.
Oh, I had to sneak one in.
Well, you know candidly whenand you know this too, being in
that courtroom people wouldthink that, well, you guys
aren't doing any heavy physicallifting.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
No, the lawyers are doing in the court.
Sometimes it's okay that wewant to lay on the couch after
work and just stay, and that'swhat.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I do.
That's what I do Because you,literally, when you're dealing
with serious issues and, like Isaid, every issue is serious to
the people that are involved thelawyers obviously can keep the
courts feet to the fire, becausethe lawyers and one of the
things is this we have to alsounderstand that judges we're
(27:00):
just lawyers.
We're just lawyers who happento be elected as judges.
So, therefore, just because youdon that black robe does not
make you smarter.
And I will say this if and nooffense, but if you are, um,
let's say, super jerk before youput the robe on, you become
super, super jerk oh is that.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Oh, that makes sense I would work.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I always like this session.
So the accelerator, it's anaccelerator accelerator.
Therefore I like to, especiallyin civil court.
But you know my backgrounds,you know prosecution on
prosecution of criminal defense.
When I became a Superior Courtjudge, I took on the position
that these civil lawyers knowthat Judge Gregory doesn't do a
(27:42):
lot of civil work and thereforeI knew that.
They knew that.
So do you guys help?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
me yeah and you get that right.
Lawyers you trusted could helpand lawyers to have that role to
educate judges yes, and thenthat and that's when they're
just explaining it then?
Yes, and you found that that'spart of what the process is and
that's not offensive to me,because the yes and you found
that that's part of what theprocess is and that's not
offensive to me because, the wayI see it, if you live with your
case forever and then you bringthat case in front of me, you
(28:08):
know your case, I know that case.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
You know that case, it would be egregious on my part
not to expect you to explain tome what you believe the law is
and so forth, and me not tolisten.
It's more helpful, actually,when I'm dealing with the civil
lawyers.
They really do educate me oncivil law and civil procedure
and so forth, and I do mystudying and so forth, but
(28:30):
you've got to go from subject.
You may have to go from one dayto the subject matter here.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Subject matter here, I mean that's a lot to keep in
there.
Yes, yes, you know, in somestates, I was talking to someone
.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I think, it was in New York where you might sit as
a judge for 14 years and all youdo is criminal work or all you
do is civil.
In North Carolina, as you know,we do both and you get to move
around some too.
Yes, that's a very good point.
In Superior Court, since theinception of the creation of
Superior Court, of the creationof Superior Court, Judges drove
(29:00):
horse and buggy to I think itwas like six districts at the
time and they would sit in thosedistricts for six months and
then go to the next district.
Well, we have been doing thatsince then, so we travel.
I'm in Fayetteville now and Iwill come back to Wake County.
We sit in six-month periods.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
You know we have 100 counties and that's a little bit
of traveling, yeah, and theChief Justice can send us
anywhere he needs us, butgenerally we get our schedules
five years in advance, so weknow where we're going to be so
listen, here's a new traditionthat we have here on the show I,
because we know you have a busyschedule, sir, I can't, I don't
want to get distracted, sothrow a rubber band at me when
it's time to run I saw him doingthat.
(29:40):
So, judge Gregory, I appreciateit.
This was good and as peopleneed to know better information
about our elected judges and tovote when that comes out.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Vote, please vote.
It's important.
I thank you, ben, for that.
It's important.
I will conclude with this, andI'm not being political, but, um
, there are three pin branchesof government, three independent
branches of government and we,as citizens of North Carolina
and this country, should welcomethat no branch is greater than
(30:10):
the other branch the legislature.
They create the law, theexecutive enforces the law and
the judicial interprets the law.
But when I'll say this, vote,vote, vote.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
That's important believe it or that?
Gregory, I really do appreciate.
Appreciate by tuning in todayfor beyond the bar.
Join in next time for beyondthe bar.
Thank you.
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