BTE 5.05 Buying Curriculum vs. Writing Your Own: Part 1 with Anne Wilson and Mikey Sackrider

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What if the fastest route to a healthier youth ministry isn’t writing more, but shepherding more? We sit down with Anne Wilson, Next Gen Pastor at Traders Point Christian Church, to learn the value of buying curriculum, then spending your reclaimed hours pastoring students and training volunteers. Anne shares a practical, month-ahead workflow for taking a solid, gospel-centered series from download to stage—assigning a rotating editor, contextualizing scripts, upgrading small group questions, and leaving room for the Holy Spirit to lead. The payoff is tangible: more time in schools and FCA, stronger leader prep, and holy moments like spontaneous baptisms when hearts are ready.

We also pull back the curtain on CIY MOVE's upcoming Kingdom Workers theme. Think Ephesians with a bright, surreal visual world and a reimagined response element that nods to the past without living in it. The film project with a new mission partner threads beautifully through the theme, showing students how vocation and calling intersect in ordinary life. Ephesians 2:10 anchors the message: you are God’s handiwork, sent to make everyday spaces sacred—classrooms, shops, studios, and sidelines.

If you’ve wrestled with the stigma of “selling out” by purchasing curriculum, Anne offers a reframing that’s both freeing and challenging. Students aren’t grading authorship—they’re aching for truth and presence. Treat curriculum like worship music: sometimes you write for your house; often you lead with faithful songs others composed. The key is stewardship and context, not copy-paste shortcuts. Leave with a clear process you can adopt tomorrow, a vision for sacred work in everyday places, and a renewed conviction that your best creativity might be spent in conversation, not in a document.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Brad Warren.
This is Beyond the Event, ayouth ministry podcast presented
by Christ in Youth, where wehelp you maintain momentum
between the mountaintops.
Our guest today is Anne Wilson.
She is, I'm going to be sohonest with you, I don't
remember her title, but sheleads the next gen team.
She is the next gen pastor atTraders Point Christian Church,

(00:24):
which has several campusesthroughout the Indianapolis
area.
Anne and I are gonna start offour conversation about uh the
pros and cons of of buying andorselling curriculum.
She's gonna be kind ofpresenting the case that buying
curriculum has been the best forher in her context at Traders
Point.
But before we dig into that, Iam joined by my good and

(00:48):
longtime friend, MikeySackrider.
Mikey's the director of no.
I was wondering where you'regoing with that.
I was really excited about it.
Mikey, director of You've beenpromoted.

SPEAKER_04 (00:59):
Yes, right here.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00):
You're the director of this episode of the podcast.
Oh man.
All right.
Yeah.
Mikey is our lead programmer forMove.
That is correct.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay, great.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10):
The director of programming for Move.
There you go.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
Director.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14):
That's not true.
Yes.
I am the I am I am uh on ourprogramming team, specifically
programming for Move.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23):
Currently working on developing uh your third move
tour.
Third one.
Third move tour.
And I wanted to have you on.
We always have you on once ayear to just kind of talk about.
We've had here's the deal,Mikey.
We've had a lot of peopleregister for Move.
It's a lot.
More now than at this point everbefore.

SPEAKER_04 (01:43):
It is very exciting, man.
It is a lot of so so exciting.

SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
So the people are excited.
The people are ready to come toMove.
The people want to know.
I want to know because Ihonestly don't really know.
Uh kind of what we can beexcited about.
I know we kind of teased our uhtheme of of Kingdom Workers.
Yes.
Kingdom Workers.
And I want to know how we landedon that, why we think it's right

(02:08):
for the moment, why you'reexcited about it, you know?
Yeah, why why are we here?

SPEAKER_04 (02:12):
Absolutely.
Uh yeah, Kingdom Workers uh isgonna be summer of 2026.
We're gonna walk through thebook of Ephesians.
So there's your little Which bythe way, long timers.
Yes.
I was gonna say that.
Okay.
If you've been around the CIYblock a little bit, you know
that in 2016, our theme in 2016was also Kingdom Workers.

(02:33):
And so this in some ways is notsome ways, that was a silly
statement.
It is the 10-year anniversary ofthat Kingdom Worker series.
Now, if you also know thehistory, more of the history,
you know that it has not been 10years since we've started saying
Kingdom Workers.
It actually started before thatwith Kingdom Worker cards.
However, really that KingdomWorkers uh theme in 2016 kicked

(02:56):
off kind of that verbiage andreally drove home uh the the
definition of what a kingdomworker is.
So we just felt like at thistime uh in in our in kind of the
scope of of programming, itwould be a great time for us to
come back full circle to thattheme and put it back in front
of students because uh even 10years ago, today, 10 years from

(03:19):
now, kingdom work is what we arecalled to, right?
As those who follow Jesus,kingdom work is where is where
we go, is where Jesus takes us.
And that's for all of us.
It's the context for everybody.
And so, man, we're just soexcited to walk through
Ephesians to to communicate to astudent, you have been created
to be a kingdom worker, likeGod, who in many ways is the

(03:40):
original kingdom worker, right?
He has created you in such away, man, that that we are able
to have so much influence on theworld around us, and we're able
to uh bring light into thedarkness, you know, all those
analogies, but that's that'swhat we want to communicate to
students this summer throughKingdom Workers.
Ephesians 2 10 specifically islike the main uh passage of

(04:01):
scripture that we're gonna befocusing on.

SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
Are we doing are we doing handiwork or masterpiece?

SPEAKER_04 (04:06):
Uh we are doing hand it's handiwork.

SPEAKER_02 (04:08):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (04:08):
It is handiwork, yep, and I V.
I disagree, but I well, yeah,just we're keeping keeping it
consistent with NIV.
But both are great.
Um both are great.
Um yeah, so we're really excitedabout it.
Um we're kind of you know, ifyou've seen the poster, it's
it's very bright.
It's kind of like this naturemeets surrealism.

(04:29):
That's a word that I've heardthrown around uh in our meetings
as we talk about look and feel.
So kind of like this uh, I don'tknow, dreamy.
Michael, am I saying thiscorrectly?
Dream sort of yeah, it dreamydefinitely resonates with me.
Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
It's an open, yeah.
Which I was gonna get at.
Like, okay, this is uh uh aconcept that has been around for
almost 20 years.
This is the 10-year anniversarywhere we're doing the same
skeleton of a program that wedid 10 years ago, but there's
also a lot that is gonna feellike very new and fresh.
100% including like I mean, thelook and feel could not be more

(05:06):
different.
It's from very different to 2016Kingdom Worker to 2026 Kingdom
Worker.

SPEAKER_04 (05:12):
Correct.

SPEAKER_02 (05:13):
Um, programming wise, I mean, we're still gonna
be in the book of Ephesians, uh,which is what we did in 2016.
Um but what are you excitedabout?
What what life are we excitedabout kind of breathing into
this?
Are there any things we'retrying?
Can you give us a little peekbehind the curtain?
And I'll say that knowing we arevery early.
Yes.
So it is process.

SPEAKER_04 (05:35):
Sure, that is correct.
Um, yeah, so I just want to kindof double back on that a little
bit.
Yes, correct.
It is the same uh skeleton, ifyou will, but we took that
skeleton.
And if you were, if you were apart of the 2016 theme and if
you remember it really, reallywell, um, you will notice some
some differences.
You know, we took it, andobviously through the context of
2026, a lot happens in 10 years.

(05:55):
And so we as a team, you know,read through the 2016 theme
guide, is what we call it, andwe prayed over it.
And so there are some subtlechanges in that, but generally
it's it is very much the same aswe walk through Ephesians.
Yeah, I'm excited.
Um, man, I think I think whatI'm most excited about is for
students to see that um inwhatever context they find

(06:17):
themselves in today or in thefuture, God is calling them to
make things sacred.
I'll say that word, to makethings, you know, holy in their
context, right?
And I I think one of the thingsthat I'm particularly excited
about is for a student who'ssitting in their seat and they
know maybe they're maybe they'reabout to graduate and they know

(06:37):
that they're gonna take overtheir dad's business.
I'm just throwing out anexample, or they're gonna go
work as an elementary schoolteacher, right?
Coming off of this week a move,one of my goals, one of my hopes
is that they'd walk awaythinking, like, man, I can't
wait for that opportunity,whether it's being a teacher or
taking over my dad's mechanicshop and making that a sanctuary

(06:59):
for God's presence, right?
For for people to experience Godand to interact with God and to
see that he is good and that hecares for them as well.
Um, you know, I'm also excitedto see, too, kind of paired with
that, we had a great response touh vocational ministry students
being called into that lastsummer.
I believe that God's gonnacontinue that.
I think we're we're gonnacontinue to trend that direction

(07:21):
of students feeling called toministry.
And so we'll obviously um havethat as a part of our our week
as well.
But overall, whether it'svocational ministry or it's you
know an elementary schoolteacher, God is calling you,
He's equipped you to create thissacred space of ministry
wherever you go.
Like it, it's it's all aroundyou all the time.
Uh, it is everything.

(07:42):
So I hope that answers yourquestion.
But I am excited about that.

SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
It uh it doesn't, but you know, it's awesome.
No, it's so good.
It's like, I don't know how youcannot be fired up about that.
You know, it's like I can almostunderstand hearing like some of
the it's like, oh, Book ofDaniel, okay, we just did that,
you know.
Yeah, like kind of not being soso pumped, but like there's no

(08:08):
reason not to just be absolutelyfired up about spending a week
telling your kids that they arepriests of the most high God, no
matter where they go.
Yeah, that rocks.

SPEAKER_04 (08:20):
It's really cool.
It's gonna be so cool.

SPEAKER_02 (08:22):
I mean, I need that reminder, you know?
Yeah, I always wonder how ourprogram is gonna hit adult
leaders.
Yeah, like this past year, itwas so cool how many how many
adults who came as volunteerswith their youth group took
batons.

SPEAKER_04 (08:35):
Yeah, crazy made decisions, yeah.
It is really, really cool.

SPEAKER_02 (08:38):
Yeah, and even hearing you say this, I'm like,
it's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_04 (08:42):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, because you got you got group
leaders from all over in adifferent context, taking off
work, yeah, right.
And and it's like, okay, how howam I gonna go home and go back?
Right.
I'm glad you brought that up.
That's really cool.

SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
But even them, like, I don't know why we're talking
about adults, nobody cares aboutadults, but that's not true.
Even them, like many of themhave the mentality that like I'm
taking a week off of work to godo ministry at move.
Right.
You know what I mean?
Like, this is my ministry, and Iam taking PTO in order to come

(09:12):
do this.
Yeah.
And like that mentality is amentality that I have at times.
And just being able to speak tothat and say because I often
think that the the students whoare there with adults who are
also on the journey with themare the ones who stand to gain
the most from an experience atMove.

(09:34):
I don't know if you agree withthat or not, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (09:36):
No, I do.
I do.
And I and I again I'm glad I'mso thankful.
I mean, it's all it's allEphesians, right?
It's it's it's God's word.
But I'm just so excited for astudent again to walk away and
and leaders to walk away.
Like, man, everywhere I step,everywhere I go, it's it's it's
just an opportunity forministry.
And so, dude, it's gonna be sofun.

SPEAKER_02 (09:54):
Shoo! That's gonna be good.
I'm so glad.
I got a shit out of Brad.
That's a good thing.
Uh that's probably neverhappened before.
I don't know.
Uh okay, but is there like onelittle thing you can tell us?
Is there like a- Oh, are youasking for like a specific, but

(10:15):
I'm just like, can can you likecan you, you know?
Oh man.
Show one card in your hand, notthe whole hand.
Just like we're excited aboutthis.

SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
Are you talking about, I mean, like a film
project?
Are you talking about responseelement?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Let me say two, let me say twothings.
So one thing is uh if you werepart of 2016, I feel like I keep
saying that, there was aresponse element with a
butterfly that I feel like wasreally cool, really powerful.
We are we're doing a version ofit uh with a little bit of like

(10:50):
a like a spin or a twist.
And so you'll you'll see thatit's on the poster, so maybe
that's not really it comes as abig surprise.
Oh, there is a butterfly in theposter.
There is a butterfly in theposter.
Um it's the whole week.
Just let me just say this thewhole week is not gonna be
butterfly week.
Okay, that is one uh one placeof imagery uh of many that we'll
be using throughout the week.
So I just want to say that uh toget that out there.

(11:11):
But um, yes, I'm very excitedabout that.
Um I would say, man, filmproject-wise, uh really excited
about our um the mission partnerthat we're partnering with,
Kunmis Manos.
Um, are you gonna have a podcastabout that?
I hope I don't ruin it.

SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
There's not a podcast about that, but our next
episode, we're gonna dig intothat a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 (11:29):
Okay.
Well, I won't say too much aboutit, but there's a film project
attached to it that's that'sgonna that's gonna um, as we've
been walking further into whatthat film project's going to be,
uh it it's taking it has taken adifferent shape for the better,
and it's amazing how itparallels with the theme of
Ephesians.
It even all of us in the roomare just like, God is so cool

(11:50):
how this story of um, you know,it's the the person who started
Konami Spawns, how how thisperson and their life lines up
with Ephesians so well.
So I think students are gonnaconnect with it far more than
just a mission partner, but as auh really a thread for kingdom
work uh as far as a theme goesthroughout the week.
Um there there's other thingstoo.

(12:10):
I don't want to say too much.

SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
No, no, I'm not asking for too much.
You that was great.
I know the game you played.
That was just enough to get melike jazz.
That's you know the game I play.
I could just walk into youroffice and ask you.
That is true.
You should.
You should um I wanted thepeople to be able to
participate.

SPEAKER_04 (12:26):
Yeah, I get it, man.
It is it's gonna be so exciting.

SPEAKER_02 (12:28):
So um This is a very special time for me right now
that we're getting ready to dobecause um we have a new segment
on the podcast called Mike'edUp, which is where Mike gets to
talk about anything he wants totalk about, but you're also kind
of Mike.
Yeah, no one calls you that.
We need a guest on Mike'd Up?
So it's like t Mike Mike's up?

(12:52):
Mike Mike's up, Mike's up, maybethat's so stupid.
All right, Michael, save me formyself.

SPEAKER_03 (12:59):
Um, okay.
A couple of weeks ago, I sawsomething in the news a couple
of weeks ago as of the time ofrecording.
We're recording on October the23rd.
Okay.
I saw something in the news thatjust really lifted my spirits.
What?
Yeah, and this is somethingcoming out of California, which
makes the second time I'vetalked about California on Mic's
Up with Mike.

(13:20):
Big fan of Cali.
He's he likes Californiadrivers.
It's true.
I like California drivers.

SPEAKER_04 (13:26):
Okay.
Um is that sarcasm or is thattrue?
Oh, that's true.
Oh, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 (13:29):
Okay, listen to the podcast, Mikey.
Okay.
Yes, kids.
I've been listening to NarniaAudiobooks.
That's all I've been listeningto, so I'm so sorry.
Yeah.
Um, anyway, uh Governor GavinNewsom, think what you want.
Doesn't matter to me.
Uh, but he rolled out a new lawthat will take effect in I think

(13:50):
July of 2026 banning in thestate of California commercials
on streaming services that arelouder than the show.
Wow.
How do they monitor that?
How did I mean as a sound guy,is that um, I mean, I there well
there are there are ways.

(14:10):
Um it's complicated, and we'renot gonna worry about getting
into the details of how thatworks better.

SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
Do they so they are doing that intentionally?

SPEAKER_03 (14:18):
Yeah.
I had no idea.
I thought it was just like thewhat so I actually looked this
up before deciding to talk aboutit.
Um apparently there's actually alaw that was rolled out in 2010
um that that was the same banbut for commercials on broadcast
and network television.

SPEAKER_04 (14:35):
They were doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 (14:37):
Because it's so annoying.
Making it louder so that youhear it.
I like what I think so that itjust like the louder I yell
steals your attention away.
Like it.

SPEAKER_04 (14:46):
No, but what it does is you end up turning it down
and then it goes back to yourregular show, and then you have
to turn it back up.
Yeah, dude, I don't want to dothat.
So dumb.
It is interesting.
That's what we're spending ourtime solving.
I'm fine with it.

SPEAKER_03 (14:57):
Oh no, I I I wish the rest of the country would
follow suit.
Maybe they will.

SPEAKER_02 (15:00):
Meanwhile, a hurricane is getting ready to
hit the Atlantic coast and FEMAis.

SPEAKER_04 (15:05):
That's what I was saying.

SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Yeah, yeah.
100%.

SPEAKER_03 (15:08):
Um terrible feelings.

SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
Oh, yeah, but what can you do?

SPEAKER_03 (15:11):
But those commercials, man, they're pretty
loud.
And I know a lot of people havea lot of feelings about the you
know, the number of laws thatCalifornia has and the things
you have to pay attention to.
I'm on board with that one.
You know what?
You know what?
So many of these laws that Ithink I've seen in California
are really just about thepeople.
You know?

SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
You know what I can't wait to do?
Go to California and watch a newgirl on a just pick something
and watch it.
Oh man.
Interesting.
Yeah.
You know who's gonna hate thatas streaming companies because
people are gonna be lessinclined to pay for the non-ad
supported version of it.

SPEAKER_04 (15:47):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
Yeah, that would be interesting.
Because that's part of theannoyance of ads to me.
Yeah.
Is just like the I actually likean ad break.
Yeah.
I like getting up, refilling mywater, peeing, doing whatever I
gotta do.
I always mute them, but it's thescreaming that I yeah, yeah.
Oh gosh, that is good news,Peikel.
Yep.
You have lifted my spirits.

SPEAKER_04 (16:09):
Man, good.

SPEAKER_03 (16:10):
I'm so glad.

SPEAKER_04 (16:11):
And it's like audio adjacent, which is your world.
What a what a great find of astory.
Thank you.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
Uh wow.
Okay, that's great.
I love that so much.
And I cannot think of possibly abetter way to go into our
conversation with Anne thanfeeling just this amount of joy.
So let's go talk to Anne.
Let's go talk to Anne.
Let's do it.
Anne, I'm so glad that you'rehere.

(16:41):
Board member, youth pastor,mother, extraordinaire, social
media star.
I don't know.
I'm just making stuff up now.
Um, but you are one of myfavorite, uh, favorite next gen
voices in the whole wide world.
And I'm grateful that you'rehere with us today to talk about
curriculum, everybody's favoritetopic of conversation.

SPEAKER_00 (17:04):
Yeah, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_02 (17:06):
Yeah, I hear you have dinner parties all the time
and bring people over and justyap about curriculum.

SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
I do, but now that you've introduced me as a social
media star, I should say I amnot Ann Wilson who writes songs.
So some people might be confusedright now.
I'm not a country artist.
I'm just a youth pastor.
So Anne Wilson.

SPEAKER_02 (17:26):
Country artist, or wasn't Ann Wilson one of the
sisters in Heart too?

SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
She was.
So depending on the era ofperson I'm talking to, they
either say, Oh, Ann Wilson fromHeart, or now it's like Ann
Wilson from K-Love.
I actually had a student come tome with Ann Wilson's book last
summer to get me to sign it.
And I had to say that is on me.

SPEAKER_04 (17:44):
I was hoping you did.

SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
I didn't.
I didn't want to be dishonest.
Yeah.
You would have made that kid'sday.

SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (17:52):
No, that's why I put my maiden name in my Instagram.
Too much info, sorry.
Because I kept getting tagged inher tour update.

SPEAKER_04 (17:58):
And then that's really fun.

SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (18:03):
You should just put curriculum Anne Wilson.
Curriculum Ann Wilson.

SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Great.

SPEAKER_02 (18:08):
Um, can you really quick before we get started,
just hit one of those heartnotes for us just to Okay, all
right, great.
We'll move on then.
Um Mikey probably could.
Mikey pretty pretty prettytalented singer.

SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
I don't know what a heart note is.
I just knew she was in heart.

SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
You don't know any heart songs?

SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
No.

SPEAKER_04 (18:28):
Sorry, man.
I only listen to Ann Wilson.

SPEAKER_02 (18:31):
Okay, love Ann Wilson.
Yeah.
Or Traders Point, Ann Wilson.
Okay, here we go.
I only listen to this AnnWilson.
We're gonna talk to this AnneWilson about curriculum.
Um, so here's here's we did havea conversation before the
conversation that led to me kindof starting here.
I will warn the listener, butthis is where I want to start.
You um you came on staff atTraders Point originally in the

(18:54):
communications department,right?

SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
Yes, I did.

SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
Am I right about that?
Okay.
And your job was what?

SPEAKER_00 (19:02):
Content writer.

SPEAKER_02 (19:03):
Content writer.
So you are we're we're coming tothis conversation about
purchasing curriculum from theuh lens that you are a gifted
writer.
I don't know if you would saythat about yourself, I'm gonna
say that about you.
That you're very good atwriting, that you could sit down

(19:24):
and write an incrediblecurriculum, um, that maybe
that's even something that mightbring you joy at certain seasons
or times in your life.
Um so why what did it take foryou to get from that place of
like I'm a person who createscontent to a place of okay, for

(19:45):
the good of my ministry, for thegood of the next gen ministry at
Traders Point, we need topurchase curriculum.

SPEAKER_00 (19:52):
Yeah.
So before I joined Traders Pointstaff, I had been a youth pastor
before that.
And I had done some writing forcurriculum companies, like on
the side, and so kind of got tosee behind the scenes of how
curriculum is created and belike a contract writer for that.
Before that, I did aninternship, which really um

(20:15):
formed the way I think aboutcurriculum.
My boss at the time was actuallya very gifted writer, but he was
very passionate about curriculumand taught me all the things
about curriculum at the time,which I won't say the year, but
it was a while ago.
And the reason why he was sopassionate about it, I would
say, is still carried with menow, which is it's really about

(20:38):
stewardship of time.
And as a content writer, whenthat was my job, obviously
that's what I did.
But right now I'm an ex-genpastor and I oversee kids and
youth pastors.
And with them, I want to helpthem steward their time the
best, which is to shepherdpeople, to lead their volunteers
and to be able to create like agreat experience where students

(21:02):
and kids can encounter God andfollow Jesus.
And so for us, that has meantthat the writing of curriculum
content from scratch is not ournumber one priority when we can
find really solid stuff thatother people in the kingdom
create.
So I see curriculum as more oflike a kingdom partnership thing

(21:25):
than we are outsourcing ourcreativity or that we're like
abandoning originality.
Um, I think curriculum helps youstart at 60 to 70 percent.
You can use your creative giftsand context to edit and change
based on your own ministry, butyou're not starting at zero.

(21:48):
And so I think for me it's more,way more about stewardship of
time and resources than anythingelse.
That's not that it's not aboutother things, but that's like
the top of the list for me.

SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
So I know a lot of youth pastors who part of the uh
appeal of uh youth ministry orpart of the reason that they
believe that they are gifted foryouth ministry is a creative
spirit.
So I'm glad that you likeindicated that.
Mikey even I think of as likeobviously a highly, highly

(22:18):
creative person, was a greatyouth pastor.
So how do you reconcile all ofthat?
You know what I mean?
Like, do you feel like you'reyou're taking something away
from yourself, or how you knowwhat I mean?
Like, I'm not a creative person,so it's hard for me to put
language to that, but like whatis how does that weigh?

SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
You're creative.
We're all we're all creative indifferent ways, but that's very
sweet.
I would say no, it is just true,but um sweet.

unknown (22:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (22:50):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
With that said, I think a lot of youth pastors
that I've talked about this withfeel like curriculum takes away
their like creative agency ortheir originality.
And it's really funny, like whenyou have this conversation in
kids' ministry land versus youthministry, it's like two very
different conversations.
Um in general, most kids'ministry um people rely on

(23:17):
curriculum so that they can dotheir job.
Like they wouldn't be able toget their job done if they
didn't have that.
And so I think when I turn thaton its head, it's like, why
isn't that true about youthministry?
And I would just say, itprobably is.
You just probably don't knowthere are things that you're not
getting done because you'respending so much time in content
creation.

(23:37):
And with students who livelargely in a content creation
land, um like they can accesscontent at any time.
The unique thing that the churchprovides is relationship and
discipleship.
And so I would just say, like,if for me, there's so much
creativity that you can exercisein all kinds of places, not just

(23:59):
content writing.
But then also I would say, like,I don't think it's a one size
fits all.
Like just because we create, orjust because we purchase
curriculum and utilize that, itdoesn't mean that there aren't
things that we create on ourown.
So, for example, like we doyouth events throughout the
year, and largely those arewritten.
This year, we have adaptedsomething actually from CIY.

(24:19):
Thank you guys.
Um, but um, we've purchased it,we're not stealing anything.
But um I purchased it off yourresources page.
But, anyways, um, but normallythat would be from zero
percent.resources.

SPEAKER_02 (24:32):
Okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (24:33):
Yeah.
Well, but but the reason I didthat was again a stewardship
time.
Like we are in a season of somestaff transition.
And normally what we would havebeen able to throw toward that
event and that like contentcreation, we weren't able to.
And so it's like we were aboutto start pouring so much time
into that when I'm like lookingup and I'm like, we have so many
people to lead.
Like, we do not, this is notwhere our time can go.

(24:54):
I think what's hard is that youdon't often know that you're
really not tending to peopleuntil they all start falling
apart, you know?
And so um I think it's easy tomaybe miss what you are not
tending to by pouring all yourcreative energy.
So I say all that to say thatdoesn't mean that there aren't

(25:14):
times that we start from zero orthat we might have a series once
in a while that we do totally onour own.
Um, but every single month oryear long, that's not what we
do.
So there are times and there areseasons or there are weeks maybe
where it's necessary to do that.
And I just don't think it's forus been a healthy choice to say

(25:35):
we are going to, we havesomething uniquely special to
say every single week.
We cannot rely on any othervoices, like it's just us.
You can hear my little soapbox,I guess, coming out there.

SPEAKER_02 (25:46):
Um that's what a podcast is, so it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 (25:49):
I just think at times thinking in a youth
ministry context where you are ayouth pastor, you don't have
this huge creative team.
And I've been in a small churchand a large church.
So, like I've done both ends ofit.
And now, in even in a largerchurch, I think the mistake is
to think like, well, we just canhave all these resources.
Let's just hire tons and tonsand tons of central staff so we

(26:09):
don't have to do this.
When you could be prioritizingthose stewardship dollars and
staff dollars toward people toshepherd people.

SPEAKER_02 (26:18):
Um, that's really interesting.
I want to key in on that for asecond.

SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
Because you were talking about stewardship of
time and the immediate thoughtthat popped into my head, and I
was asking actually planning onasking you about this, and
you've kind of beat me to it alittle bit.
The the thought that popped intomy head is that you work at a
church, and this is a little bitcrass, and I apologize, but
we're we're just gonna go forit.
You work at a church where youcould advocate to your bosses

(26:45):
for having more dollars to hiremore staff to write curriculum
and not take away any of thetime that your current staff is
spending relationally and stillbe able to like do the to do the
work of of writing thecurriculum.
But you're saying like no, ifthose dollars were actually

(27:07):
available, I would want toactually double down on the
relational impact that we'remaking rather than write
curriculum.
Am I kind of like reading thatright?

SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
You are, and I don't know if that's too candid to
say, but because again, ifsomebody's made a different
choice, I'm not like this is me.
No, we're talking about tradersgoing to be decided.

SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
Yep, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
But for for us and this house, um, we have decided,
but I think I think of thissimilarly to like worship music,
right?
Like there are times that ourteam has written their own song,
but it's not every song of everyweek.
They sing songs and lead peoplein worship that other people
have written.

(27:51):
If we were to say no, we onlysing songs that we have written,
that we have come up with,that's the only way we can
worship God.
Like, I guess I don't know howcurriculum's any different.
And yeah, we could hire thishuge central staff and I could
advocate for that.
I've seen a huge need on acampus side for right now more

(28:11):
than ever, like people to beshepherded really well.
Not that they didn't need tobefore, but I'm in charge of
right now.

SPEAKER_01 (28:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:19):
And so if I'm gonna advocate for more staff, I'm
gonna, I wanna do it at thecampus level.
That doesn't mean that therearen't central positions that
are needed and we have centralteams.
It's not like I'm the only one.
Like I've got an incrediblecentral team that I serve with
for both kids and youth ministryand in kids, there's a way
bigger need.
And like, you know, so likethat's not to say that that's

(28:40):
not needed.
It's just that if we're gonnaadd more and and I found a
curriculum company that I trustand that I have a partnership
with and can give feedback to,and we edit stuff, but the
amount of time we spend on thatis so much less than we would if
we were starting at zeropercent, both from graphics,
yeah, video scripts, smallgroups.

(29:03):
Like we contextualize that.
And we even, you know, becausewe use CIY's app convos, and I'm
I promise I'm not trying to bean ad right now.
We just do do that.

SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
CIY.com.com slash convos.

SPEAKER_00 (29:15):
For our context, we take small group, you know,
stuff and we rethink it in theformat of what convos would be.
It's not like our curriculumcompany knows about combos and
uses convos, or you guys allwork together.
It's like that's where we haveto use our brains.
So we do spend some time.
Yeah.
Um, but it's just so much lessthan what we would at 0%.

SPEAKER_04 (29:38):
One thing I would love to kind of go further in,
you'd mentioned uh obviously howit allows you guys to be
creative in maybe other ways.
Like it kind of pours out intothe way you guys do groups and
discipleship.
Um, I it'd be cool to hear likea specific example.
Like, what's something thatmaybe recently or in the past
couple years that like you andyour team have been able to do
from the uh discipleship side ofthings or even like the small

(30:00):
Group side of things where youwhere you saw that creative
creativity sort of flowing intothose areas instead because you
now had more time to do that.

SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
No, that's really, really good.
Well, I'll say one thing that Ilove is that I do feel like our
youth pastors um have margin tobe really involved in school
communities.
And so our, I'm specificallyright now thinking of our
Plainfield youth pastor.
It's a part of his weekly rhythmto go to either an FCA or he's

(30:32):
also the chaplain of thefootball team there at the high
school.
And let's say that's 10 hours ofhis week on a like really heavy
week, maybe five, you know.
But what he's doing there islike engaging with probably at
least 100 students that don't goto our church or that he's
invited to church that wouldn'the would never meet if he was

(30:54):
spending even those five hoursin content writing.
Um, but it frees up again, time,like a stewardship of his time.
That's not necessarilycreativity, but he but he
preaches his own stuff there orsomething that he's adapted from
our midweek programming andmakes it into, you know, like a
10-minute devo or something.
Um, and then a really practicalexample was a few a couple of

(31:16):
years ago, as we were growing inCIY, like attendance and what we
were taking, we were in thisweird place of um like not big
enough for our own private weekand also not small enough that
we didn't, we needed somethingto have our own like group
identity where students likecame together as a campus, where

(31:38):
they like had something thatthey all rallied around.
And so we were like, we need acreative solution for that
problem.
What do we do?
So we created two things, andone of those was like what we
called big team battle, whereeverybody had, I mean, it's just
like classic like 90s youthgroup, but remade, you know, but
everybody had a color they wore,flags they created.

(31:59):
We did a big shark tank whereevery team came with a world,
mascots, and like two games thatthey pitched, and then we all
voted on that.
Um, and that's a ton of creativetime and energy, but it was
like, okay, the game has toinvolve 300 people.
Um, and it needs to have minimalprops so that we don't have to

(32:19):
take a ton of like stupid stuff.
And it needs to have a mascotworld.
So it was like one of them waslike Willy Wonka, one of them
was like space rats.
Like, I mean, you know, justlike all kinds of weird stuff.
And then the other thing weneeded was like, we need
something at the end of thenight, basically that's an
announcement time for studentsto know what to expect tomorrow

(32:40):
for us for Traders Pointstudents, and to tell them to
like take their meds if theyhave nighttime meds.
And it's like we had a reallybasic thing we needed, but
instead it was like, well, let'screate a little 90-night
15-minute program.
And we had our safety directorthen read a kid's bedtime story
and we started filming him.

(33:00):
And students love it so much,like love it.
Like they stand up and cheer atthe end.
It's the weirdest of my life.
Listen, I think it could work, Ithink it could work other
places.
Okay.
Um, but and it's not that big ofit's but we have them carry

(33:23):
their big team battle flag andwe announce like where the
scores are, and then we givethem an update for tomorrow,
like logistics, and then theyend with a bedtime story, and
then we give like an award,whatever.
All those things, it's like wewouldn't have had the margin to
create that thought-wise ortime-wise, if every week I was

(33:43):
asking or we were asking them tospend at least 10 to 15 hours in
sermon prep, and you know, likethey just wouldn't have that.
And then also, I mean, getinvolved in schools, like when,
get involved in the communitywhen.
So to me and for us, I wouldrather have the margin for that
and then us spend depending onthat youth pastor's gifts, like

(34:03):
20 to 40 percent of their energyon weekly content than 100%.

SPEAKER_02 (34:10):
Okay.
I want to ask you about two painpoints, two common pain points
that I hear with buyingcurriculum.
Um, there's a ton of greatchildren's ministry curriculum
out there, and a lot of very,very mediocre youth ministry
curriculum out there.
What is your true true or false?
What what how what do you thinkabout that?

SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
Um, I think that that is largely probably true.
I think it's getting better.
Um in terms of there being a tonof options, like I think in
kids' ministry, there'sdefinitely more options and more
people from an educationbackground that are in kids'
ministry, so that think in thelens of like scope and sequence

(34:56):
and three-year learning journeysand you know, all that stuff.
Um, not that it's not true inyouth ministry, I just think
it's more common in kids.
But I would say I have had areally great experience with
curriculum.
And when it's a mediocremessage, it's on me to make it
great.
Like, yeah, I'm not like, oh,this thing stinks, like this is

(35:17):
all trash.
Like it's like, well, you know,like make it better.

SPEAKER_02 (35:22):
Like, um But you might spend four hours doing
that as opposed to 15 if youRight.

SPEAKER_00 (35:29):
So when I hear people say, like, well, we're
gonna so this is what I hearpeople say that kind of always
just makes me pause.
But people are like, well, we'regonna spend time on it anyway,
let's just do it ourselves.
Like, you're gonna spend 20hours on it versus two.
Like, yes, you're gonna spendtime because you still are the
overseer of that ministry andhave a responsibility and a

(35:52):
stewardship of what they hearand the content that they
consume.
But if you find somebody thatyou trust that is
gospel-centered, that teachesthe Bible and helps students
know Jesus deeply, then why notpartner up with them from a
kingdom perspective?
And like, and then yeah, therewill be some weeks that are

(36:12):
like, oh, that was just okay.
So make it a little bit better.
Like, spend some of your braintime on that, and maybe that
week you spend more time thanyou would normally.

SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
But so you're saying I was just saying.
Sorry, I thought you were kindof done there.
But uh you're saying like even amediocre youth ministry
curriculum, and I don't hear yousaying that the curriculum that
you are using is mediocre, buteven a mediocre youth ministry
curriculum actually helps youachieve some of the goals that
you're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
Yes.
That doesn't mean I think youshould just settle.
Settle, but I I feel really goodabout the curriculum we're
using.
And and then when our youthpastors will say, like, oh, this
message was kind of weak, it'slike, okay, well then let's make
it better.
Um and so far, I mean, we've hadgreat series this fall.

(37:04):
Our series this fall startedwith friendship, and then in
August was about faith andscience.
And I mean, we it was so good.
And we have, and I will say too,like, as in a multi-site
context, we still have our youthpastors speak into them and edit
them.
Like it's not like they just getsomething they have to do.
Um, there's a different editoron each week to make sure like a

(37:25):
real person that is with ourstudents every week is looking
through it and gives their likeediting notes and all of that.
Um, and then it's up to theyouth pastor at their own campus
to contextualize.
So, a great example of this.
Uh, probably a month ago in ourfaith in science series,
actually, at the very end, ourum one of our youth pastors
really wanted to add in a callto baptism.

(37:46):
And it wasn't in the script, butreally was just listening to the
Holy Spirit's leading.
And he's like, I think mystudents are ready for this.
And six students that night madethe decision to get baptized and
then were baptized the next weekwith our church.
And so again, it's like I thinkpeople think if they use
curriculum too, it like cuts outthe power of the Holy Spirit or
the voice of God and what he cando.

(38:07):
And it's like, no, it just makesyou prepared and open so that
you're not just thinking aboutthe content that you wrote or
the sentence that you love tosay, but like I think it
actually in some ways, for somepeople, frees them up to listen
to the Holy Spirit in theircontext and not in the, you
know, but like listen to theHoly Spirit, think about their
context, shift things around.

(38:27):
I mean, the reason I lovecurriculum is the same reason I
take students to CIY and don'tcreate my own camp.
Um, because I trust you guys.

SPEAKER_02 (38:34):
I trust CI.com slash move, CIY.com slash mix.
All the plugs, man.

SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
Sound crazy.
I'm glad I don't have like a CIYhat on, I guess.
But if if if a youth pastortakes students to camp and
trusts you all with that, Iwould just ask them why not the
same kind of posture towardcurriculum.
There are probably things aboutCIY programming that a youth
pastor doesn't feel 100% aboutevery time.

(39:01):
Well, of course you don't,because your context, you know
your context better thananything.
So in the areas where you needto supplement or change
something, do that.
And where you don't, like it'sall right, it's all good.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (39:14):
Yeah, I would love to know.
You kind of just mentioned itbriefly, but specifically from
download to stage, right?
If we're talking about like asermon series, yeah, what is
that process?
I know you just kind ofmentioned a little bit, somebody
who looks at it and edits it.
Um, I just think for some peoplethat might be helpful instead of
just I downloaded this, youknow, the morning of and now
we're gonna try it, you know.

(39:34):
I don't know if someone'sactually doing that, but what is
that process in the timeline?

SPEAKER_02 (39:38):
Like if we're starting a series on January
5th, when am I you know what Imean?

SPEAKER_00 (39:45):
Yep.
So in general, with thecurriculum that we use, which is
through Amazing Life, we work,and there are others too.
Like we used Grow, we've used umGospel Project, like we've used
all of them.
Right now, we are really likeloving what we're using, but
we'll work like in general amonth ahead.
And so for so right now there'sa team that's working on what

(40:12):
it's October, it's working onDecember.
November is done.
But I'll speak to two different.
So when I was a single youthpastor, no, I'm married.
When I was like a solo youthpastor, I was married then too.
Sorry, when I was a solo youthpastor, I'll share about that
and then also in a multi-sitecontext with like a bigger team.
Cause I think you can do it inboth.
When I was a solo youth pastor,I would work ahead a month too.

(40:36):
And most curriculums at leasthave a month ahead, if not a
whole semester ahead.
Um, and they'll usually give youa scope and sequence for the
year so you can kind of see ormove series around where it
makes sense for you.
So they'll give you like, here'swhat the year is gonna look
like, and then here's thedownloads for everything,

(40:57):
usually like quarter at a time.
So in August, let's say I was bymyself as a solo youth pastor,
like I would download everythingthat was available, but then I
would work a month ahead.
So I would try to have Augustdone in July, but I would
download week by week.
And in the series we use, theywrite full scripts, which I
really prefer because that'sbeen really helpful for our

(41:18):
team.
And then what I literally do,now this is just my process that
might not be helpful for otherpeople, but I will pull it up
right here and I will pull uplike a blank word doc on the
other side, and I will lookthrough and make notes of things
that might need to look a littlebit different for our context,
or like delete this, changethis, and then I'll go and do
that.
Um, and then our small groupcontent, if I was again so by

(41:41):
myself, I would do the samething, look through, probably
add some stuff, just becauseI've always small group content,
I do think is like the weakerpart usually of a curriculum.
That's just been true ofeverything.

SPEAKER_02 (41:52):
Well, that's the that's the that's where the
contextualization rubber meetsthe road, right?
Is like in that context.
So that makes total sense.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:01):
Yeah.
And and now I will say, like, Ican use AI to help me with that
to think of better small groupquestions or like look at this
script, give me some more.
Even if it's like I need moremeat to this, like I'll and then
I use my own human discernment,as we always should, and like
flesh out a little bit moresmall group content.
And then even for like leadernotes or any of that, like I'll

(42:25):
finalize all that then.
So I usually create like twodocuments.
One is like small group contentand leader notes is one, and
then the other is a script.
And then usually with that alsocomes graphics, slides, like all
that stuff.
I'll try to do a whole series ata time with everything.
And I try for me to do all thatwork usually in like one or two

(42:46):
days, um, which sounds like alot, but for me, it's like if I
can focus on it all at one time,it's just it's probably how you
guys create content too, right?
It's like if you do one hour perday, you're fastic.

SPEAKER_02 (42:58):
Um, not having to like jump in and out of that
headspace over and over and overand over and over again is
probably helpful.

SPEAKER_00 (43:04):
Yeah.
And the editing, and I amthankful that I had the
experience I did in mark inmarketing and communications
before because I usually wasediting content in addition to
writing content.
And they're two totallydifferent skill sets.
I don't think I can do this justbecause I had that though.
Like, I think any youth pastorcan do this.
Um, and you can use AI to youradvantage with human discernment

(43:25):
and like your gospel biblicallens.
Um, as a disclaimer, nobody getsscared.
But like you can use AI to youradvantage to help you out with
that.
So I'll do all of that, and thenI'll usually try to work a month
ahead.
So our editing schedule.
So that was what I would do bymyself.
And then with our team rightnow, what we've done is
basically a different youthpastor at a different campus

(43:47):
does that, everything I justsaid, for a series.
So everybody is in charge ofsomething and speaks into at
least one series.
And then they will go over thatwith our team a month ahead.
So we'll do like a contentoverview in one of our youth
team meetings where they'retalking about the series, what's
coming up, some tips for yourgroup leaders, anything that

(44:08):
they need to know of like, hey,you need this Jenga set in Teach
Three.
You need um, you know, whateverprops you need to get ahead of
time.
We try to do that.
And again, I think, oh, goahead.

SPEAKER_02 (44:22):
Uh well, I was just gonna say, like in the
multi-site context, let's sayMikey is editing this month that
we're currently working on, andI'm a youth pastor at another
campus who's not editing thisparticular series.
I'm not getting the raw files atall.
I'm getting whatever Mikey hasedited down and created.
That's what is passed along tome.

SPEAKER_00 (44:43):
Yeah, and you can like all of our youth pastors
have logins.
They can go see it themselves ifthey want, but what's in our
SharePoint like folder ofmidweek?

SPEAKER_02 (44:54):
I mean, why would they go back to the right to the
raw stuff?
It's like I trust this member ofmy team, and he's already, you
know, given me.

SPEAKER_00 (45:01):
He's already looked through it with a campus lens,
and we've already and then I ouryouth lead too looks over all of
it as like a final set of eyes.
But um, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (45:11):
That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
That's awesome.
Is that two in the weeds?
I mean, it's probably boring,but that's just what we do.

SPEAKER_04 (45:16):
That's really interesting.
I think it it helps people, youknow, in their context if they
do uh purchase curriculum too.
So have you ever because I doknow one thing, you kind of
talked about this sometimes.
You get in a position where uh,or someone maybe who you know
writes their own curriculumwould say, Well, what if, you
know, you know, what if we wantour students like we feel like
they need to know this veryspecific thing?

(45:36):
Like we're in this season wherelike this topic is or this
scripture is, you know what Imean?
Have you guys experienced thatwhere, you know, I think you
mentioned this earlier, whereyou can kind of like go out of
that lane and and write your ownthing and and what maybe caused
that?
You know, how what was thatprocess like?

SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
Yeah.
Well, so yeah, we've done thatbefore.
And even when our um wholechurch was in a like um
generosity initiative for two,we it's we've been in it for two
years.
It's called Awaken.
But when we started that, we allkids and all youth and adults
all did it at the same time.
And so we did take a break.

(46:14):
We were doing something a littlebit different then, but we
created our own awaken series inyouth.
And I would say if we were doingthat all over again, we could do
the exact same thing.
We're doing something a littlebit different in kids' ministry,
even in December, or we'rejoining our church and doing at
the movies.
So we're doing at the movies inkids.
So we are not using AmazingLife's December content.

(46:37):
We're creating our own for thatmonth in kids.
So yeah, I mean, I think it'stotally fine.
That's why it's like it doesn'thave to be 12 months, but if
it's 11 or 10, that gets youpretty far.
And then you can use thatcreative energy you have for
that one month or that onetopic.
You really feel like we need totalk about this with our
students.
You can still do that withoutthrowing the whole thing out.

SPEAKER_01 (47:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:01):
Um, so yeah, if we needed to do that, we absolutely
would.
And there'll be times we will.
But I will say one thing that Ilove about our curriculum right
now is they have these one-offweeks that are like hot topics,
basically.
So, like, I'm pretty sure lastmonth or this month, there'll be
one about substance abuse, andthen there's one about coping
that we did the month beforethat, and they're continuing to

(47:23):
come out with more and more ofthose.
So they're even kind of catchingon to like, hey, I think youth
pastors need some specificthings that can pull out to
address a certain issue orconversation students are
having.
Um so yeah, I would just say,yeah, go ahead and do that.
And you don't have to then dothat the whole year, probably.
Like I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (47:43):
Quick uh super in the weeds question about what
you just said.
Um so we're taking off the monthof December to do out the
movies.
Do you have the like obviouslyyou feel that from a uh uh
staffing and a ministry scopeperspective, you have the
flexibility to do that.

(48:03):
Does the the company that youbuy your curriculum from,
Amazing Life, do they give youthe flexibility to do that as
well?
Like, are you having to pay forDecember and just shelving it or
do you not?
I'm curious about that.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (48:16):
Yeah.
But I will say in comparison towhat creating your own
curriculum costs, and I knowbecause we've been down that
road, it's pretty minimal tohave a December wash than a
whole year of creating your own.
So, yes, we pay for a year ofcontent.
So we'll have a month ofDecember that we don't use.

(48:37):
What we're gonna do is pick thevery best week of December and
use that for our Christmas Eveservices.
Um, and then for July, we'll dosomething pretty similar too.
And it's like, all right, we'regonna shelve that.
Maybe we could use it for kids'camp.
Like, are there other ways thatwe can utilize this content?
Or it's like, we didn't reallylike that month, so let's do a

(49:00):
different month here.
So yeah, I think you can stillbe creative because you're still
the overseer and you can movethat stuff around um within the
tools that you use.

SPEAKER_02 (49:08):
So totally.
Mikey, you are a very gifted.
Do you like that?
I did like that.
You are a very gifted uh youthpastor and also a gifted worship
leader.
I want to jump way back in ourconversation to Ann's comparison
of this to like the idea ofworship music, because I thought

(49:29):
that was really fascinating.
Yeah.
Um, and just kind of uh pickyour brain on that a little bit
and see like as a worshippastor, do you see those as as
like kind of living in the sameworld?
Because I do think that that isa really, really interesting
comparison.
And how does that like make youthink about all of this?

SPEAKER_04 (49:46):
Yeah, oh, absolutely.
Yeah, I've never heard thatbefore either.
So that that kind of raised anantenna for me too.
Like, oh yeah, like that that isreally true.
Never thought about that way.
Yeah, I mean, I think I thinkthere's there's certainly
there's certainly so much greatspace for a worship leader or
worship team to say, hey, we'regonna write this song, you know,
similar to like the month ofDecember for you guys.
We just feel like this month, oryou know, in this case, this

(50:07):
song is it was placed on theheart of one of our team members
or worship leaders, and theywrote this song, and we just
feel like it really connects toour our church.
I think there's so much beautyin that, so much power.
I think there's a lot of unitythat comes from that too, to
say, like, oh, this is ourchurch's song.
This is super cool.
But I also do think, too, youknow, when there are so many
talented musicians and worshipteams across the country, or

(50:30):
across the world, actually, forthat matter, who are writing
music as well, you know, throughthe Holy Spirit's um direction
that churches can use.
Now, I will say, within theworship world, I don't know how
this connects with curriculum.
I think it I think it connectsin the in the sense of what
we're talking about with likeediting even curriculum that you
download.
But like if you are trying to bea different church's worship

(50:52):
team, like I think that's whereit can get a little like, oh,
we're just gonna do the songbecause this is what all the big
you know worship bands are doingor whatever, and for getting
sort of to think through thelens of our church and our
community, just because thissong is popular, um, is this
what our church needs right now?
I think that might be somethingthat's a little bit maybe unique
in that sense.
But no, I I really think that'san interesting connection and

(51:14):
anal uh or uh you knowconnection to me made between
curriculum and and that.
But um I think there's certainlyside sides for both.
I do think uh, you know, if ifyou do write all your own music,
that's super cool.
I'm glad you do that.
But I do think there might be apoint where um, you know, you
might be you might be missingout.
You might be missing out on somesome really, really rad, you

(51:34):
know, worship songs that youknow that other churches or
other groups have written.

SPEAKER_02 (51:38):
So yeah, it's that's where I would just oh go ahead.
Nope.

SPEAKER_00 (51:42):
I would just say that's where context really
matters a ton and staffstewardship resources and all of
that.
And so that's where I thinkcalling in the conversation.
I mean, it sounds weird probablyto say like calling is a part of
a curriculum conversation, but Ido think it is of if you are
called to be a pastor and ashepherd, um that isn't the same

(52:06):
as being called to be a contentwriter.
And so if you really feel thisburden for content writing, I
would ask then what that meansfor how you use your gifts
professionally and what might bepeople missing if you're
spending all of your time there.
And that doesn't mean that likethere's not a place for that.

(52:28):
Like I think there is, and inour context, um, because it is a
larger church, we have a musicdirector who is the one who is
thinking about all thosedifferent things, and our
worship pastors are leading outat campuses and not thinking
about those things, you know,like and that's but I would say
when I was in a smaller church,if our worship pastor was
writing his own stuff all thetime, I can't even imagine how

(52:51):
much the people would havemissed out on leadership and
shepherding and pastoral careand helping come alongside them
to teach them instruments, youknow.
I mean, so I do think yourcalling really matters in this
conversation too.
And if you do have a significantburden to be a content writer, I
I just would ask is being ayouth pastor what you should be

(53:17):
doing?

SPEAKER_02 (53:18):
Like, um uncomfortable, but a good
question to ask.
Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_00 (53:23):
Um not not that you can't do both.
Okay.
I'm not trying to be extreme,but like, can you do content
writing in your social media oror once every six months or
editing sermons so that theylike, you know, are your voice
and your style, like, or writingyour own book, or you know, I
mean, I think there are otherways you can do that, and just

(53:45):
making sure you don't neglectthe people in front of you.
I guess so.
I'm saying I'm not saying youcan't be a youth pastor and be a
writer.
Okay, I'm not saying that.
Obviously, like I love boththings, um, but I I just know
there'd be some things missingif that's where I poured all my
energy into.

SPEAKER_02 (54:01):
Yeah, I do like to kind of put a bow on this, and
then I I I want to ask you onelast question here, but I do
think that what both of you justsaid almost makes the relation
because uh people are obviouslymore comfortable singing other
people's songs in church thanpurchasing curriculum.

(54:23):
A higher percentage of churchesdo one than the other, right?
And I think, and I don't want toput words in your mouth, Ann, so
I'm gonna pose this as aquestion, but I I I I think I
hear you saying that if someonewere to do the curriculum
version of what Mikey is talkingabout, try to be another

(54:45):
church's worship uh team, andyou saying, well, that's what
makes context so important.
The curriculum version of thatbeing, well, I'm just gonna
download this and preach it asis.
I'm not gonna edit the smallgroup questions, I'm gonna throw
these into my youth leaders'hands and we're just gonna run
with this.
Uh would you say that that'skind of a a misuse of yes.

SPEAKER_00 (55:08):
Yes.
I think and I don't think anycurriculum curriculum creator is
offended that we are doing that.
Like I think they are expectingus to contextualize.

SPEAKER_02 (55:19):
Well, most of them, most of them send you Word docs,
right?

SPEAKER_00 (55:21):
Yes, they send that so that we can edit it and they
would expect that.
And I would say you areneglecting your responsibility
if you're just copying andpasting and not thinking through
what you're putting in front ofpeople.
So I'm not saying like abandonyour mind and don't think about
anything you're doing.
Like, no, absolutely you should.

(55:43):
I just think you can start atprobably 60 to 70 percent
instead of zero.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (55:48):
Okay.
I'm gonna ask one more question.
You got anything else?
Uh just one more thought inthat.

SPEAKER_04 (55:53):
Sorry, real quick.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just one more, one more thoughtthat I had.
I think too, as we talk aboutstewardship, right?
Obviously, the platform, thestage platform is a great
responsibility, right?
What comes off of the stage, ourplatforms and our ministries
really can build culture.
They can all sorts of things.
We know that.
And so I'm just another thoughtthat I had is I think sometimes
we can fall into a trap.
I say we as in in studentministry or even just church

(56:14):
world, that uh to make whathappens on stage the most in
important thing.
We've already kind of said thisin other ways, but really when
you look at like small groupsand discipleship and time with
students, I mean, that is wherethat's where it happens, right?
We see this at move, right?
At a week a move.
Um, obviously we pray over andreally think hard about what
comes off of our stage of ourplatform, but we also recognize

(56:38):
that really the the greatestwork uh that we see in a week a
move is what happens in theyouth group time and it happens
in small group time.
And so I think just in general,in this conversation, just a
reminder for everybody listeningwho has, you know, has both time
on stage and time with students,man, that time with students off
the stage is so incrediblyvaluable.
And um, man, whatever way,practically this week, whoever's

(57:00):
listening to this that you canpour into that, please do
because it is just vital.
And students are longing forthose really healthy
relationships with a mentor.
So just wanted to say that.

SPEAKER_00 (57:11):
I completely agree, Mikey.
I love the way you said that.
And I think what you just saidis what's at risk of getting
missed when all of a youthpastor's time goes toward
creating their own content.

SPEAKER_01 (57:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (57:24):
So um last little thing here, and we've gotten
right to the end of when Ipromised you our our our time
would uh end.
And uh I want to give you achance to uh encourage kind of a
specific youth pastor, because Iimagine that there is probably

(57:45):
more than one youth pastorlistening to this podcast who is
listening to you and saying,Yes, good point, yes, good
point, yes, I hear you, yes,good point.
But just like there's there's aa a a stigma with purchasing

(58:05):
curriculum at times, I feellike, where you're you're you're
it feels like you are givingsomething up in order in order
to to purchase curriculum or itfeels like you're kind of
selling out, you know.
Um I have talked to people whokind of have that thought, have

(58:29):
that mentality.
Um I'm not asking you toconvince anybody to buy
curriculum.
I'm sure people who write theircurriculum, you know, have come
to that conclusion thoughtfully.
But I am asking you, like, okay,maybe there's a youth pastor who
this is the right thing for, butthey haven't taken that step
because they have a bad vibeabout it.

(58:51):
And I just kind of want to throwthat person in front of you and
say, hey, what would you whatwould you say to this person?

SPEAKER_00 (59:00):
Um that's a really good question.
I would ask, who are you afraidof disappointing?
Like when you say even they'reafraid of selling out, like to
who?
Because I I can guarantee youstudents don't know or care.

(59:26):
Like students, I'm not trying tobe mean.
I just if you are right now,like using your gifts and your
time and your calling is towardhelping young people know and
follow Jesus, they are notwondering to themselves has my
youth pastor sold out and usedother people's content to help

(59:51):
teach me the Bible?
Um, it's just like not thequestion they're walking in with
on Wednesday or Sunday orSaturday, whenever you have
them.
They want to hear the truth.
They are living in a world thatfeels really confusing and they
need you to give it to them.
And they need someone to walkalongside them to help them

(01:00:12):
follow Jesus well.
And so what do you need to do todo that and to prioritize them
at the front of your decision?
And so if your decision makinghierarchy is like I want to be
cool and have my own contentthat I put out on social media,
then yeah, like you are sellingout.

(01:00:32):
If your decision makinghierarchy is like what is best
for students in my ministry andbest for my leaders, I would go
there and let the other noisejust find its way somewhere
else.
Um it feels like if I wassitting with that person and I

(01:00:55):
knew them, I think I would diginto the motivation of that
question.
Yeah.
Because we're not recordingartists and I don't have a
talent agent trying to find me anew church.
Like I'm shepherding people, andI want to put my time and
resources and creative energytoward that.

(01:01:16):
And one and I sound like I'mlike saying the gospel is true
only if you use curriculum.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:21):
I'm not, I'm not saying that I I do not hear you
say that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:23):
But I I just I don't think students care.
I just think they they want yourpresence, they want the truth,
um, they want to know that youtake them seriously, and so
whatever helps you do all ofthat and more, that's the
decision that I would make.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:41):
Well, and I'm very, very grateful for your
thoughtfulness on this issue andreally every issue.
You just think deeply aboutthings, and I appreciate that
about you.
I'm thankful for your ministryat Traders Point.
I'm thankful for yourpartnership with CIY.
I just think you're great, andthank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:00):
Thank you guys for having the conversations.
I think they're really needed.
So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:04):
All right, we'll see you soon.
Mikey.
Yes, sir.
We close out every episode ofthe show by having our co-host
hype up somebody in ministrybecause they deserve to be hyped
up.
I understand that you've made aselection.
I'm excited to hear you tell uswho he is and why you've chosen.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:21):
Is this hyped up with Mike?

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:23):
Hyped Up Hype with Mike.
Hype with Mike.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:26):
Those don't technically rhyme.
Uh man, I'm gonna give a shoutout.
Okay, go ahead.
Hey, I'm shouting out my friendhere.
Yeah, um, I'm gonna shout out myfriend Sam Skaggs, this guy
right here, high school pastorat a Harvester Christian church,
um, over in St.
Charles, uh, which is super fun.
And yep.
Here, here's why I want to shoutout Sam.
Uh, I I had the privilege ofhanging out with him and his

(01:02:48):
team.
Uh, they did a they did aretreat based off of rhythms,
okay?
Okay, which is super cool.
So we did rhythms two years ago.
It's uh it's uh trying to walkthe pace of Jesus for 21 days.
Last year.
Uh in last year, yeah.
But we we started it two yearsago.
And so him and his team grabbedhold of that concept and and
grabbed hold of that book, andthey just did a whole retreat
based off of it to to kick itoff for their for those

(01:03:10):
students.
And so I got to come hang outwith them and do that.
So that's how we got connected,but then just staying connected,
got to hang out with them inKansas.
Sam is just so genuinely um, hegenuinely loves the church,
loves students so much, and justto see his heart and his
passion, um, it it neverdwindles.
He's just all in all the timeand just a joy to talk to.
Um, and just cool to see himinteracting with students again.

(01:03:33):
He just has a heart for him.
And so just want to shout himout.
I know last time we talked, he'slike, man, I was like, how you
doing?
He's like, man, I'm so good, butthere's just a lot going on.
I know a lot of people feel thatright now, too.
Um, but man, really proud ofSam.
Thankful for what you do, bro.
And so, man, to everybody, toall the Sam's out there.
Pin him to the board for now.
Hold on, let me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:51):
It's okay.
Do I pin it in his no, not inhis head?
No, and not in his wife either.
Let's just do the sky.
Do it.
Okay, yep, you did it.
All right.
Hey, there we go.
Sam.
Thank you, Sam.
Uh, thanks for what you do atHarvester and for the kingdom.
Keep up the good work out there.
So good.
Also want to thank my buddyMikey and my other buddy, Mike
Gole.
All the mics for all the micsfor a great episode today.

(01:04:14):
I want to thank Ann Wilson forbeing with us and sharing some
of her wisdom.
If you liked what you heard,don't forget to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
We're gonna be back in two weeksto finish up this conversation.
We're talking to Mike Brantonabout why he and his team at Sun
Valley Community Church in thePhoenix area choose to write
their own curriculum.
So it'll be kind of the flipside of this little coin.

(01:04:35):
Uh yeah.
See you next time.
See you guys.