BTE 5.07 Middle and High School Separate vs. Together: Part 1 with Michelle Kruse and Rob Watson

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A cupcake caper, an Unreal-powered mansion, and a question every youth leader wrestles with: should we separate junior high and high school? We sit down with student pastor Michelle Kruse from Summit Christian Church to unpack how age-intentional programming can transform engagement without requiring a bigger building or a bigger budget. Michelle walks us through their midweek system that alternates middle school and high school in the same space, why the teaching style shifts for each group, and how small groups, worship, and pace change when you design for real developmental stages.

We also explore the hidden engine of healthy transitions: a purposeful preteen ministry. Michelle shares how she launched a fourth and fifth grade service, then empowered a part-time couple—both teachers—to lead with Orange curriculum, accessible teaching, and consistent small groups. The result is a smoother handoff into student ministry, monthly fifth-grade previews of midweek, and camp experiences that ease anxiety. One of our favorite moments: why the car ride home with a parent might be the most important discipleship moment for preteens.

If you’re navigating limited space, limited volunteers, or mixed-age expectations, this conversation offers practical tactics you can try tomorrow: teaching twice in one night, swapping spaces, recruiting part-time leaders, and inviting high schoolers to serve in preteen or middle school to keep mentorship alive. We also get honest about quality tradeoffs, leader health, and how to read your context so you can separate where it matters most and still sustain a life-giving pace.

Subscribe, share this episode with a fellow youth leader, and leave a review with one change you’re considering for your next gathering—we’d love to hear what you’ll try first.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_04 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Brad Warren, and this is Beyond the Event, a
youth ministry podcast presentedby Christ and Youth, where we
help you maintain momentumbetween the mountaintops.
Today's guest on the show isMichelle Cruz.
She is a student pastor atSummit Christian Church in
Sparks, Nevada.
She's going to be talking to ustoday about why it is important

(00:25):
for Summit Christian Church thatthey have separate
age-intentional programming.
Next week we'll kind of have thefoil to that and we'll talk
about the benefits of havingprogramming with junior high and
high school together.
But that's not today.
Today is today.
And so you'll get to hear fromMichelle in just a minute before

(00:45):
we do that.
I'm joined by CIY's SuperstartProgramming Lead, Rob Watson.
Hey Rob, how are you doingtoday?
Doing amazing.
Are you comfortable with thatjob title?
Is that did I call you the rightthing?
Lead programmer?
Superstart lead programmer?
Yeah.
I don't know.

(01:05):
We do not do job titles well, Idon't think.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
No, and mine it's changed too.
Even though I've had the sameposition, it's changed like
three times.

SPEAKER_04 (01:13):
It's like, what do I call myself?
Um don't tell Jennifer this.
But lips are sealed.
One time I was frustrated withmy job title.
Not because I like wanted ahigher ranking job or anything,
but just I was like, this isweird.
Did I just change?
I just changed my emailsignature.

(01:34):
Without asking.
You just did it.
I was like, this is my job now.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
Hi, I'm Brad, the overseas director.

SPEAKER_04 (01:41):
Yeah, that communication.
It was when I worked for Engagebecause like my job title had
the word event in it.
And it was like, I don't know, Idon't get this.
Annie Hoosier.
Um how are you doing, Rob?
Great.
The second time.

(02:01):
How are you doing?
Did I already ask you?
Yeah, you did.
That's awesome.
It's almost like I was kidding.
It's almost like I was uhdropping a hint there that
nobody's asked me how I'm doingtoday.
Hey, how are you doing, Bradley?
I'm just kidding, I'm great.
Um all right, we're here to talkabout Superstart.
When people hear this podcast,right now this this is not true,

(02:22):
but when people hear thepodcast, it will be December,
which means that when peoplehear this podcast, next month
Superstart begins.
Crazy.
Okay.
So we're all very excited.
I love a good superstar tour.
Uh, we've already had Corey onthe podcast.
We talked about how I'm gonna bedirecting uh four superstarts,

(02:45):
which I'm very, very pumpedabout.
And uh that's gonna be great.
So I want to know what is goingon in the programming world of a
superstar.

SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
What do we have to look forward to this year?

SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Oh, it's gonna be good.
Like legitimately, honestly.
It's gonna be great.
Uh Superstar Tour.
No doubts.
Go ahead.
It's called The MysteriousTruth.
And so we're just gonna betalking about truth.
I know, but it's it's Decemberwhen they hear it, so it's not
it's still mysterious.
It is you're right, it's stillmysterious.
It sounded like a spooky ooh.
I just yeah, it was.

(03:18):
I don't know.
You're right.
But we're we're gonna be talkingabout how to find truth.
So uh this is actually a tourthat Superstart did a decade
ago, and we revamped it, weredid a lot of it, polished it,
and um kind of made it moremodern for today's day and age,
too.
But we loved what it's talkingabout.
It just felt really timely.

(03:39):
Uh, when we were havinginterviews with preteen pastors
like all across the nation, uh,one of the things that came up
was kids responding really wellto talks about truths and QA and
things like that.
And so that's why we decided todo it.
And I was like, hey, we havethis amazing teaching uh that
we've already done.
So we decided to do it again andjust revamp it.
But it felt really pertinentjust with like AI things and

(04:02):
where where do you go whenyou're searching for truth?
Who do you know to listen to?
There's so many more opinionsand ways to even get different
opinions than there were even adecade ago for a preteen student
that it just felt really neededand timely.
So we'll be talking about uhalways starting with going to
God for truth.
Uh so when you want one, youwant to know truth about life
and what you should do.
So you look and listen to Godfor truth, you collect and

(04:24):
connect his truths that we findin scripture um through his
church, through God's people,and through experience, and then
lastly, you show and tell it.
So that's a superstar in anutshell.
It's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_04 (04:35):
Oh, it's so good.
Um last time we did MysteriousTruth, it was like clue murder
mystery vibes.

SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
Yes, no murder, but yes.

SPEAKER_04 (04:47):
Uh but you know what I'm saying.
Yeah.
Um in case somebody freaked out.
There was not a murder mystery.
We there's no murder.
Um that was a bad thing for meto say, but you understand what
I'm saying.
Um what's what kind of world arewe living in this time?
It is the same.
Oh fuck! So it's not murder.

SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
And this time there will be, except this time it's
personal.
Uh another seal.
Uh it is actually the same.
It's a it's a mystery play.
Someone gets cupcaked.
It's age appropriate.
There's no murder.
They get a cupcake thrown atthem mysteriously, and you gotta
find out who done it, who wasthe cupcake.

(05:27):
It's called the cupcake caper.
Uh, and fun fact, so this iswhat uh this is almost the
actual play, it's almostidentical to what we did.
We changed a couple of thingshere and there.
Uh, this was the first superstarI took my students to as a
middle school pastor.
And I have this distinct memoryof like being there.
And uh I had I was sitting inthe row with like the really

(05:48):
popular kids.
These dudes are they're sixthgraders, they're kind of like
just super like jock intosports, but they were also the
like, all right, how long beforeyou start disrupting everyone?
I'm gonna have to take you outof session kind of thing.
And I remember like Patrick getsup on stage and he's like, Hey,
we're we're gonna do a mysteryplay.
And I was like, uh, great.
Looks like I won't see any of itbecause I'm gonna be taking

(06:08):
this.
And those kids were in it thewhole time.
Like, I remember looking overand seeing one of them standing
up on his chair, yelling like atthe stage, like, I know who did
it.
It was and I just had thismoment where I paused and I was
like, Oh my goodness, like I wascompletely wrong.
This totally works.
So a great thing to be wrongabout.

SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
It is, it's fun to come full circle and um to do
that.

SPEAKER_04 (06:33):
It is, in addition to just kind of like the
skeleton of Superstar, there arealways one million and one
really fun elements and things,and like I couldn't believe what
the stage looked like using likethe Unreal Engine backdrop this
year was really cool.
And you know, it's hard to knowwhat kids are gonna latch on to,

(06:54):
but they always latch ontosomething.
Last year it was a young, uh, ayoung seeming, a young coded uh
Gary the Potato.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Who was actually how old?
Uh four.
No, you mean in the potato?
84.
He was uh 84 years old.
84.
Portrayed by your son.

SPEAKER_04 (07:17):
Who is four?
That's who is four.
Um the Corey teased that Garymight be coming back.
Maybe.
He didn't commit to it.
Don't no no no no no.
Save it.
Hold on to that.
I'll save it.
Um I am curious if you haveanything that you're just like

(07:38):
pumped about that you can giveus a little peek behind the
curtain, a little teaser aboutanything fun.

SPEAKER_01 (07:46):
Like what's getting you jazzed about this tour?
That's not what we just said.
Yeah, because that's alreadythese people already know that.

SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
Okay.
Um outside of Gary, yeah,there's actually multiple
things, but we have uh youmentioned the Unreal thing, but
if you thought like last year'swas cool, we like turned
everything up.
So it looks crazy.
There's this there's thismansion, you will be flying in
and out of rooms.
That it looks I'm literallyblown away.

(08:16):
Like, I don't have words, Ican't.
Like they've already set it upand you've seen it on the oh my
god I can't describe it becauseit would fall short in every way
possible, even if I spent theentire podcast like, hey, here's
what we're doing.
Um, but I'll just tell you itwill look super incredible.

SPEAKER_04 (08:31):
I've got to have either Peyton or Brian on the
podcast to just be like, How doyou you I don't understand how
do you do it?
It's mind-boggling.
Um well, I can I literally can'twait to see that.
I'm so pumped.
Um, they always do a magicaljob, and that sounds like a
really fun and engaging thing tobe able to use a few LED panels

(08:53):
and turn a stage into a uh amansion where a murder has taken
place.

SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
Where a not murder has taken place.
Where a cupcaking has takenplace.

SPEAKER_04 (09:05):
A cupcaking.
No.
Oh, that's so fun.
Um, Rob, okay, that's great.
I can't wait for Superstart.
You and your team always do areally good job of putting
everything together.
It's super age intentional.
Um, and like I mean, like yousaid, what you experienced 10
years ago is still true, whereit's like I never see fourth,

(09:29):
fifth, and sixth graders aslocked into something as when
they are in a large groupsession at Superstart.
Just it never happens.
Like, I don't know how you guysdo it.
You continue to come up withskits and videos and you keep
things moving because of theshort attention spans and you
play interactive games with thewhole crowd, and it's just so

(09:49):
fun, and I cannot wait.
I'm so pumped.
Um, so thank you for all you'vedone to get ready.
We're ready to rock and roll.
We're hitting the road here injust a few weeks.
Um it is now time for Mic Dub.
Mic Dub.
Uh Rob, this is where Mike, akaMichael, aka producer Michael,
aka Pikel, gets to talk aboutanything that he wants.

SPEAKER_03 (10:12):
Woo-hoo.
What if we just spent the entiremic dup with Mike going aka aka?

SPEAKER_04 (10:20):
Actually, I stole that.
I stole that from the blankcheck podcast, if anybody
listens to that.

SPEAKER_03 (10:24):
Oh.

unknown (10:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (10:26):
All right.

SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
Um this episode And their their producer does have
like 25 nicknames.
And they say when when whenGriffin, one of the hosts, gets
going, he says them all.
And it's crazy.
I decided to just do four.

SPEAKER_03 (10:42):
Yeah, and we appreciate that.
Um this episode drops December1.
15.
15.
Oh, okay.
Great.
Cause we had some schedulingthings, had to move things
around.
Great, great, great.

SPEAKER_04 (10:57):
No, you're right.
I just didn't switch the dates.
Oh, okay.
I'm sorry, I'm an idiot.

SPEAKER_03 (11:02):
Great.
That just, you know, it affectswhat I'm gonna say.
Okay.
So um here's a hypotheticalsituation.
You find out that a month fromright now, you're going to get
teleported to a random location.
If you are able to make it backhome, you will win a million

(11:24):
dollars.
You get to find out what thatrandom location is, and you can
decide whether or not you'regoing to do it.
You get three locations that youcan choose from, okay?
So if you don't like the firstone, you can say, no, I want the
next one.
And if you don't like that one,you can say no, I want the next
one.

(11:44):
And if if you get to the thirdone, you have to go with the
third one.
There's no hearing a locationand just going, I'm not gonna do
it.
You either agree to do it andyou have to go with one of the
locations you get, or you don'tdo it.

SPEAKER_04 (11:58):
And we get a million dollars.

SPEAKER_03 (11:59):
If you can make it home.

SPEAKER_04 (12:00):
If you so you're dropping us by a helicopter in
your own.

SPEAKER_03 (12:03):
No, you just magically teleport.
Oh, even better.
And you have a month to preparefor this, but you only you only
end up like teleporting withwhatever you're wearing.
Like you don't get to go like nobackpack?
Does that count?

SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
I'm gonna say it doesn't count.
Uh, so just the clothes?
Mm-hmm.
Do I have a phone in my pocket?

unknown (12:22):
No.

SPEAKER_04 (12:23):
Ah nothing in your pockets.
Nothing in your pocket.
Can I have my insulin pump?
You can have your insulin pumpand however much insulin you
need.

SPEAKER_03 (12:33):
Get it together.
Okay, here we go.
So, do you agree to thischallenge?
I agree.
Okay.
Um, Brad, we'll start with you.
I'm gonna pick a randomlocation.
That's the ocean.
We're not going there.
I love the ocean.
That one is on land.
Let me take a look to make sureI can actually read it.

(12:56):
Just off the coast of Yemen.
It's technically in the water,so we can say it doesn't count.
Um, but if you're just off thecoast of Yemen.
I mean, like, it's probably like20 miles.

SPEAKER_04 (13:11):
Do I have a certain amount of time to get home?
You just have to make it.
Um, I'm gonna pass on that one.

SPEAKER_03 (13:20):
You're gonna pass on that one?
Yeah.
Okay, let's find the next one.

SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
Where is that?

SPEAKER_03 (13:34):
Very far north in Quebec.
Uh you are south of the RogganRiver.

unknown (13:41):
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 (13:42):
Can I take a fly rod, please, Michael?

SPEAKER_04 (13:45):
Yeah, sure.
I'll do it.
You want to take that one?

unknown (13:50):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (13:51):
Alright.
Hopefully you can make it home.
I just want to fly fish.
I think you need to find abranch.
For the record, just so thateveryone understands, I'm like
just using a uh randomrandom.org slash geographic dash
coordinates is the website I'musing to find these these random
locations.

(14:12):
Um and on the map that's builtinto the website, it's like if
it's a country that speaks adifferent language than English,
it it's written in thatlanguage, so I have to open it
in Google Maps.
It's a whole thing.
I couldn't come up with asmoother way to do this.
But anyway, so Brad takes thatchallenge.
He's gonna be very far north inthe uh um, I forget what they
call them.
They're not regions.

(14:32):
What do they call them?
Province.

SPEAKER_04 (14:34):
Provinces yeah, the province of um so but am I going
in a month?
A month from today.
You have you have a month toprepare.
Oh, I'm not going then.
Oh, okay.
I'm not going to Northern Quebecin the middle of December.

SPEAKER_03 (14:47):
All right, then let's see what your third
location's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
But you can wear you can wear coats.

SPEAKER_03 (14:53):
Northern Quebec?

SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
But you would have coats.

SPEAKER_04 (14:56):
You're gonna stick with it or do you No, I'm
passing.
Okay.
I would love to go to NorthernQuebec and go fly fishing, but
in like July.
So now I'm f now I'm toast,right?
So now you are I should havetaken it.
I should have stayed on the samecontinent.

SPEAKER_03 (15:16):
You should have.
You are in northern Tibet now.
It looks very it looks like adesert.

SPEAKER_04 (15:25):
Did Tibet ever get freed?
Um no, I'm on like MountEverest, bro.
And I'm dead.
Probably.

unknown (15:35):
Gosh dang it.

SPEAKER_04 (15:38):
Okay.
Well, I made a mistake.

SPEAKER_03 (15:40):
But you know what?
You died in probably one of thetop ten places to bleed out.
Who says I'm bleeding out?
What?
I don't know.
It's just it's just like a it'slike a meme.
It like it started because, youknow, like um the Blade Runner
movie that Ryan Gosling is in,he bleeds out, and people have
like, you know.

SPEAKER_04 (15:56):
And that's like a thing now.

SPEAKER_03 (15:57):
Anyway, Rob, do you accept the challenge?

SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
And this economy for only a million?
You have to say yes to thepodcast.
What am I gonna do yes to thefill my tank up with gas?
I don't get out of bed for lessthan three million.
Uh yeah, I'll take thechallenge.
Let's do it, let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 (16:18):
Great.
Wow.
Oh, this looks nice.
This looks nice for you.
Um wow, this is but this is veryfar north.
You are um in Yukon, Canada.
Okay, and it's a month from now.

(16:38):
And you know what?
Lucky, lucky you, you are aboutfive miles from Highway 4 in
Yukon.
Yeah, I think you should takeit.

SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
I take that.
I'm taking it.
And I'm wearing a coat, thebiggest coat money can buy.
No, the biggest coat my moneycan buy, so not North Face,
something cheaper.
Uh, and then big old gloves.
And I'm gonna can I sew granolabars onto the inside of my coat

(17:09):
and still be transported?
Because that would be my hack.
You gave him a fly fishing rod.
Yeah, sure.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (17:20):
Okay, Tibet is not free, still part of China.
Um also, southern Tibet is whereMount Everest would be.
So I'm not on Mount Everest.
I like my chances a little bitbetter, but uh I don't even know
which way I would go.
Would I go east or west?
It was nice knowing you.

SPEAKER_03 (17:41):
That is such a good question.
I'm really not sure.
That is hilarious.
I typed in Tibet in Google Mapsand it took me to a place called
Old Tibet in Boulder, Colorado.

SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
Yeah, old Tibet.

SPEAKER_04 (17:55):
All right, thanks for another uh episode of Mic'ed
Up where you kill me off.

SPEAKER_03 (18:00):
That's not what I'm trying to do.
Um this isn't a real lifechallenge.
So I'm sorry you're not gonnamake a million dollars.

SPEAKER_04 (18:08):
It's okay.

unknown (18:09):
All right.

SPEAKER_04 (18:10):
Do you want to go talk to Michelle now?

SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
Yeah, let's do it.
Okay.
Let's go talk to Michelle.
Great.

SPEAKER_04 (18:18):
Michelle Cruz, welcome back.
You're back.
Thank you.
I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_06 (18:22):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 (18:23):
Um, your last episode that we did about middle
school ministry was so much funthat I decided we were gonna,
you know, just run it back anduh talk about some things uh
that are going on in yourministry.
So we're talking aboutseparating junior high and high
school students for programmingtoday.
Can you start by just telling uswhat the student ministry

(18:46):
programming looks like for youguys?

SPEAKER_06 (18:49):
Yeah, of course.
So we have programming onWednesday nights called midweek
with no vowels.
I know you love that one, Brian.

SPEAKER_04 (18:57):
MDWK.

SPEAKER_06 (18:59):
And we uh doors open at 6.
So everyone's welcome to come.
Um, but at 6:30, middle schoolgoes upstairs um in the loft,
which is actually where I'm at,um, in the loft, and we do um
like uh we call it yap and dap.
Okay.
I call it yap and dap, where wejust like it's loud, it's crazy,

(19:21):
we're asking silly questions.
Um, worship starts, there's asermon, and then they go to
small groups.
Once middle school is dismissedto small groups, we bring up
high school.
Uh it's more low-key vibe,right?
Low-fi music, chill, and we justlike do the same thing
basically.
High school gets one more songand their message is a little

(19:41):
bit longer, and then they go tosmall groups, and then at that
point, middle school's done withsmall groups, they go home, and
then it's just high schoolhanging out uh and doing small
groups.

SPEAKER_04 (19:54):
So one crew is in small groups while the other is
in like their large group, andthen they switch.
Is it am I getting that right?

SPEAKER_06 (20:01):
Basically, yeah.
When middle school is inservice, high schoolers are
downstairs in the gym hangingout.

SPEAKER_04 (20:06):
Oh, they're hanging out.
Got it.
Um okay.
Um, what about Sundays?
Do we do anything on Sundays?

SPEAKER_06 (20:14):
Not yet.
Okay.
Where are we in?
Not yet.

SPEAKER_04 (20:16):
Breaking news.

SPEAKER_06 (20:18):
We are in the middle of construction.
Uh so the building I'm in uhused to be just the only
building we had on campus.
Um, and we are reconfiguring ourdownstairs offices into more
classrooms because we are justgrowing so crazy, which is like
what a blessing that is.
Um, and so we're waiting forthose rooms to be finished so

(20:41):
middle school can meet up herein the loft because right now
our preteen services meet inhere on Sundays.
So we're just kind of justwaiting for our middle school
service to start, hopefully inJanuary.
We will see.
Um, but that's currentlyWednesday is the only
programming we have forstudents.

SPEAKER_04 (20:59):
I'm actually so glad that we started here.
Um because everything you'resaying, we're doing growth
things, we have to be supercreative with the timing of how
we program high school andjunior high, and like we're
switching places and using thesame space and trying to
coordinate all these millionthings, and we don't have room
to do anything on Sundays, so wedo everything on Wednesday

(21:21):
nights.
And it's like it would be atrillion times easier for you to
be like youth group is onWednesday night, and this is how
it goes, and for everybody to betogether.
Um, so I think it's really coolthat you're actually in a
position where uh you don't haveunlimited resources when it
comes to space, and you have toactually be really intentional

(21:45):
about making this happen um atSummit.
So uh why is all of that hassleworth it to you, Michelle?

SPEAKER_06 (21:53):
Well, we feel like it's very important that middle
school and high school uh havetheir separate times, their
separate moments, uh, for a lotof reasons.
A lot of them, or one of them isum attention spans of middle
schoolers and high schools aredifferent.
Sometimes they can be the same.
Um, but also likedevelopmentally, um, middle

(22:17):
schoolers are just figuring outhow to like um abstract thinking
is very like their brains arealmost there, so it's more like
concrete thinking of like A plusB equals C.
Um, and high schools are um havea more abstract way of thinking.
And so teaching something to asixth grader versus a 12th

(22:41):
grader is gonna be look waydifferent because just
developmentally, they're like asixth grader is not the same as
a 12th grader, nor is their lifestage.
Um, and so we've just found alot of value in separating them
because like my message tomiddle schoolers is gonna look

(23:02):
different than high schoolers.
My examples are gonna bedifferent.
How I explain the scripture isgonna be different um because
they just might not like middleschoolers, it might just go over
their heads.
Um at the same time, you don'twant it to be dumped down for
the high schoolers because theyprobably want to tell you this,
but they probably they want tobe challenged in thinking.

(23:23):
And if it's just like spoon-fedto them, that's they're not
gonna be challenged, they're notgonna feel like it's for them
and they're just not gonna comeback.
Um, which you know, it doesn'thave to be my church
specifically, as long as they'replugged into a church, that's
what matters.
Um, but yeah, we just find thevalue in separation.

(23:45):
We did used to do it together,um, but also our numbers have
grown so much that having like200 plus people in this room is
gross.
It just it's smelly.
Um it's disgusting and it's hotno matter how far we crank the
AC, it's gross.

SPEAKER_04 (24:05):
Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_06 (24:07):
We've tried it and we're like never again.
Yeah, it's awful.

SPEAKER_04 (24:11):
So um you also said something about a preteen
service, which I'm sure made myfriend Rob's ears perk up a
little bit, um, if you could seethem under his headphones.
Uh can't see him.
But um I think it's really coolthat you guys subdivide that out
as well.
I think a lot of churches arekind of starting to do that.
And with you having an emphasison junior high, um I would think

(24:37):
that some of the kids like areyou involved in conversations
about like what that transitionlooks like?
And what have you seen the valueof like having that preteen
service or the preteenintentional programming?
Like how have you seen thataffect the students that come up
into your ministry in the juniorhigh?

SPEAKER_06 (24:57):
Yeah.
So actually, um, I started thepreteen ministry here in this
last October, two Octobers ago.
And because I saw um, you know,our fourth and fifth graders in
kid service, they were standingup against the wall, they were
bored, they're not interacting.

(25:18):
And I was like, hey, have y'allnoticed this?
And then leadership was like,Cool, go start a ministry.
Like, oh, is that is that all?
Oh okay.
Uh so I did that for um a year,a little more than a year.
Um in January, we um I was ableto um pass that off to um to a

(25:42):
couple here at church who arealso teachers.
So they just do it like superpart-time.
Um but yes, because of that, um,there's a lot of our now seventh
graders um I've gotten to knowbecause they were in preteen
ministry with me, um, which Ithink being in both ministries
has helped a lot in thetransition.

(26:04):
Um and what also helps ourtransition is in the second
semester, so the winter springsemester, our fifth graders are
invited once a month to midweekto kind of like slowly like
experience what it is.
And then the leaders of thepreteen industry come on

(26:26):
Wednesdays and lead their smallgroup um just to be like, we you
know us, we are safe.
Um, there's a lot of kids inthis room, and they sit in the
uh the middle school messagewith us, and then they have
yeah, they have their own smallgroup.
Um, and that slowly kind of likebuilds um just like rapport with
me and Adam, our other studentpastor, and then we also invite

(26:48):
them to camp as well, and sothat also eases like the
scaredness of going um eighthours away, away from mom and
dad, um, because they have sometrusted adults um as well.
And so, because of that, our Ifeel like our transition is
relatively seamless.

(27:10):
Um, we do lose some kids becausethey don't want to go to big
church yet, which is why I'mexcited for our middle school
ministry uh to start on Sundaysto help like ease that as well.

SPEAKER_04 (27:21):
Yeah, Rob, you talk to a lot of preteen people.
Um I'm I I I literally have noguess for the question that I'm
about to ask you.
No, you could say anything and Iwould believe you.

SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (27:37):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_04 (27:39):
How has um how have you seen this concept of like
developing a preteen ministrylike what Michelle is talking
about?
Um is that being prioritizedmore now in churches than it was
before?
Are you seeing the number ofthose preteen ministries kind of

(28:01):
grow?
I know obviously as a superstarperson who programs age
intentionally for preteens, thatlike I would think you would
find some importance in that.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
So I don't know.
What do you think?
Uh from my standpoint, yes, Ithink it's been growing.
Uh and if not growing in aspecific, like I have a specific
separate service or ministry forpreteens, it's at least growing
in awareness.
Yeah.
Like people, if you're a middleschool person, right?

(28:33):
Like Michelle, like you knowthat there's just there's a huge
difference between your sixthgraders and your eighth graders.
And superstar for our preteen,we categorize them for fifth and
sixth grade.
Um, but even the maturity thathappens in those years is like
crazy.
Like uh you can be having anamazing message, and the eighth
graders are like just zoned in,and then the sixth graders are

(28:55):
off thinking about Roblox andMinecraft.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like you're like, okay, I lostthem because there's even such a
big gap there.
But if you go into what I wouldsay has been the typical like
youth children's programming,which is typically like one
through five or K through five,uh, you'll know that the fifth
graders, if you're just tellingthem stories, which is really
typical, nothing wrong withthat.

(29:16):
But when their aims more towardsyour first, second, third grade
level, like those fifth gradersare done.
Like they just want out, likethey're you have lost them so
much.
So um whether or not thatresults in people making it an
actual separate completeservice.
I have seen that happen more.

(29:37):
There's at least, I think, moreawareness of it, and just
developmentally where they'reat, and people trying to put
something separate in theirprogramming for preteens, which
is really exciting.
I obviously love that, and I'm amassive proponent of it.
So yes and yes to answer.

SPEAKER_04 (29:50):
I agree.
Um, another observation that I'mgonna let you guys challenge me
on a little bit.
I feel like the um The likeemotional distance and the uh
like mental capacity distancebetween a uh fourth grader

(30:12):
that's kind of where we'll startsince we're doing preteen,
junior high, and high school,and a 12th grader is growing.
Like I feel like young kids arefeeling younger to me, and older
students are feeling older to methe more time that goes on.
Is that true or am I likemisinterpreting something?

(30:35):
Like, has that been yourexperience, Michelle?

SPEAKER_06 (30:38):
Uh yeah, like I could see that.
I think part of it, um, I thinksocial media has a huge role in
that, where I feel like our nowmiddle school high schoolers are
seemingly more mature because ofum social media, because whether
they're on it or their parentsare on it.
But I also feel like this, like,like I have a niece who's five.

(30:59):
I think this kind of like nextgeneration of parents um are
more aware of screen time andare less like my niece gets like
maybe an hour.
Um, because and I know somefourth graders who go crazy if
they have too much screen time.
Um, and so I feel like becauseof the more like awareness, this

(31:21):
like kind of new crop of kidsare are a little bit younger
because um, you know, hopefullythey're not on social media as
an elementary school or they'reon less screen time.
And so because of that, I think,yeah, they do come off their
maturity levels are younger,which honestly I appreciate
because the the amount of thingsthat I hear from like a

(31:45):
preteen's mouth, I'm like, howdo you know that?
Like, why do you know this?
Um, and so I think it's justlike not that this is a
parenting podcast, nor am I aparent, but I interact with a
lot of them and students that Ifeel like a lot of it it is on
the parents of um their likescreen time intake and what what

(32:05):
they're watching because well,yeah, real quick.

SPEAKER_04 (32:09):
I feel like that's swinging in a good direction
too.
Um, of course I'm gonna forgetwhat book it was a few years
ago.
Um gosh dang it.
It was a big deal.
This is an original thought tome.
Maybe producer Michael can lookit up.
Um, or maybe you'll know thattalked about how like kids are

(32:29):
overprotected in real life andunderprotected online, like as
the digital age was like cominginto focus, it was like it kind
of like what you're talkingabout.
It's like, how does this fourthgrader know that word?
Like what in the world?
And realizing that students hadaccess to things online, that no
matter what protections you putin place or think you have in

(32:52):
place, like that they are goingto be able to access and and
pick up on.
And I do feel like maybe notbecause of that book, but
because of kind of the the ethosthat led to that book, we're
seeing a lot more of what you'retalking about where parents are
like, okay, we're capping screentime, we're really heavily
monitoring what it is that ourkid can um see and intake.

(33:15):
And maybe that's why I'mstarting to feel um a little bit
of that like younger kidsfeeling younger again thing.
But um my point in saying all ofthat was like, we did you find
it?

SPEAKER_03 (33:27):
I think it's the anxious generation.

SPEAKER_04 (33:29):
The anxious generation.
Thank you, Pichael.

SPEAKER_06 (33:30):
I was thinking purpose-driven life or I kiss
dating goodbye.

SPEAKER_04 (33:34):
I kissed dating goodbye.
First mention on the podcast.
My first guess was blue likejazz.
Yeah.
Here's what I'm gonna say.
I'm gonna say somethingcontroversial right now.
I reread Blue Like Jazz about ayear and a half ago.

SPEAKER_03 (33:49):
Did it hold up?

SPEAKER_04 (33:50):
It holds up.
Really?
Oh it actually it actually does.

SPEAKER_03 (33:53):
I really thought you were gonna go the opposite way
with that.

SPEAKER_04 (33:54):
Um I kissed dating goodbye, have not reread, does
not hold up.
Didn't age well.
Didn't age well.
I didn't read it.

SPEAKER_03 (34:02):
Well, and this is not what this is about, but I'm
ready to hear it.
Why would I want to feel a bookthat feels like an
autobiography?
You know, just based on thetitle alone.
I don't know.
I've never read the book.

unknown (34:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (34:16):
It's a joke.
It's a it was it wasself-deprecating we all got it.

SPEAKER_04 (34:22):
Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep, yeah.
Um that guy's not a Christiananymore.
Yeah, that is correct to him.
I think that's correct.
That's just right.
That makes me sad.
Um what were we talking about?

SPEAKER_03 (34:36):
The anxious generation over protected in
real life, underprotectedonline.

SPEAKER_04 (34:41):
All of that to say, it makes this conversation, no
matter what side of it you comedown on, um, all the more
important.
I do want to kind of throw outum the the most compelling
counter argument to what you'resaying that I've heard, and just
kind of like uh ha let's have aconversation about it.
I feel like, well, first of all,I feel like most of the people

(35:04):
who have junior high and highschool together um have to.
It's like we can't, we don'thave the space or the time.
A lot of times it's smallerchurches.
Um, though there are there aresome churches that like CIY has
talked to about doing ourprogramming, and they will not

(35:24):
come to CIY because it's like,no, we want our junior high and
high schoolers together, largechurches uh at camp.
And a lot of the reasoningbehind that is they feel like
there is a like take the takethe intellectual piece out of it
for a second, take the emotionalpiece out of it for a second,
but there's a relational valuethat comes with like a junior

(35:49):
high student having kind of anexample to look up to, and a
high school student feeling asense of responsibility um for
kind of accompanying thesejunior high students on their
faith journey, so to speak.
Um what do you think about that?
I was gonna try to find a betterway to craft the question, and I

(36:10):
just my brain today is mush.

SPEAKER_06 (36:14):
So that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 (36:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (36:16):
Um, I definitely see that.
Um I think that having at leastfor my church, having a middle
school service where highschoolers can volunteer, I think
that sets up a great time tohave those relationships.
Um I think they are important,but at like almost at what cost

(36:39):
of a message or smaller of time,whatever it might be,
specifically for or gearedtoward a specific age group, I
think you might lose that.
And like, yeah, you mightchallenge your your middle
schoolers more and you uh whichcould be good.
You could also lose them.

SPEAKER_02 (37:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (37:00):
Same thing with high schoolers, if it's not engaging,
then you could lose them aswell.
But I think there's otheropportunities that you could do
for middle school high schoolersto have that type of um like
mentor relationship.
And not that I don't want toclaim it as an excuse.
I don't know these churches, um,but I think um just try not to

(37:28):
step on toes.

SPEAKER_04 (37:30):
But uh just like at what cost.
You're a better person than me.
I'm always just like full send.
Here we go.
I've never gotten any hate mail,so that's surprising.
Not because of the podcast,anyway.
No, just regular hate mail.

(37:50):
But yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_06 (37:52):
Been making notes.
Um but like at kind of like atwhat cost is it like yeah, I
think it's less work to have acombined group.
Um, but at your own expense as ayouth pastor or at the expense
of students having somethingthat is made for them that where

(38:13):
they feel seen and known andloved by um people that are in
their age group going throughthose same things.
Um versus like I don't know.
I don't know what I'm saying.
I know what I'm saying, but Idon't know how to say it.

SPEAKER_04 (38:31):
I I think we I think I hear you.
I think I hear your heart.
Um that it's just like you canget the wins of that.
Like you can you can create therelationships between high
school and junior high studentswithout actually taking that
step of saying, okay, ourprogramming is going to happen
together.

(38:51):
Like you're saying I can get thewins because I can have high
school students volunteer dreammy junior high youth group night
or whatever.
Now that's not the case for younow.
You can't have your high schoolstudents right now um volunteer.
But like one of your one of theperks of doing what you're doing
and kind of launching thisjunior high service is saying,

(39:12):
okay, I can actually pull somehigh school students in here and
maybe create a little bit moreFaceTime between them and um the
junior high students, which isreally cool.
One thing you said that I thinkis really important is you
talked about just like theamount of work, and I I do think
it is super important forpastors to be mindful of of the

(39:38):
amount of work that they'redoing because it can be really
easy to like get on the wrongside of that pretty quick.
But um you also I love that youhave this couple that's like
running your preteen ministrynow.
And um talk about what that waslike, like identifying them and

(40:00):
training and equipping them andreally empowering them to say,
hey, these people don't workhere, they're teachers, but um
we believe in you and yourability to kind of facilitate
this experience for fourth,fifth, and sixth graders, or
four fourth and fifth graders.
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_06 (40:16):
That's okay.
Sixth graders right now areincluded in preteens.

SPEAKER_04 (40:20):
I was right.
I'm on sorry.

SPEAKER_06 (40:23):
Great.
Um we caught four fourfifty-six.
Um eventually these six will goaway.
Um so sixth graders have boththere in both kids and um middle
school, technically.
Um but yeah, we um I kind ofreached a point because I was
doing students, young adults andpreteens.

(40:45):
I was like, I can't, yeah, can'tdo it.
Like I'm I'm getting burnt out.

SPEAKER_04 (40:49):
I'm which good for you for having the
self-awareness to actually likesay that, you know.

SPEAKER_06 (40:55):
Yeah, it was it was a lot.
Um and so uh yeah, they reachedthe point.
It's like, okay, we're they'rewe're growing in um our fourth
through sixth graders.
Um, we're you know, try to lookfor other people to take this
over.
And we did like applications andstuff, of course.
Knowing I think it's like maybe10 hours a week.

(41:15):
Really, it's just the weekendsbecause we have a Saturday
service, so it's weekends andthen like office hours if they
need to.
Um, but uh one of our teachersis an elementary school teacher,
or sorry, the people who aredoing it, she is an elementary
school teacher.
He is a special needs highschool teacherslash track coach.
So they already love kids.

(41:37):
Um, and they just have a heartfor kids, they have a heart for
ministry, and so um, you know,they applied and they're like uh
leadership was like, you know,talking, and I was like, oh my
gosh, these people would be sogreat.
Um and here's like the reasonswhy.
Um, and so it just kind of likeI mean, it worked out because of

(42:00):
the Lord.
Um, but because of that, it wasjust like, hey, this is like
they were in um preachings for alittle bit of like this is what
I've been doing, but this isbare bones because this is all
that I can really handle.
Um, this ministry has a lot moreum opportunities and for you to
grow in different ways.
Like this is me trying my bestwith the amount of time I have.

(42:24):
And so um they uh have been justit's been really great.
Um, we're using uh orangecurriculum.
This the kids are using orangecurriculum, um, and that's been
really great too.
I was using, I was I started myI just did my own lessons, um,
did my own curriculum, which Idon't know why I did that to

(42:45):
myself, but um but I did it.
It was not it was fine.
Um, but I was talking to my momwho used to be the kids past my
kids pastor growing up, andshe's like, Orange has like old
videos on YouTube for free.
And I was like, great, so that'swhat we did.
Um I felt like a a bad teacheror a substitute teacher of like

(43:11):
we're just watching a movie.
Um, but we had intentional smallgroups and it was good, and so
being able to be like, I don'tknow, this is what we do, and
they just kind of took it.
Now we now we pay for orange, soit's a lot more updated and
better, and everything's youknow ready to go.
Um, but they've just taken itand it's been really great.
They've added a worship element,and the small groups are really

(43:34):
great, and it's just like growna lot because of their just
dedication to it.
And um, granted, yeah, they aretheir parents, they're they have
a full-time job, um, but they'rejust very they just have
excelled so well um in thatarea, and just yeah, the
ministry's grown so much.

SPEAKER_04 (43:53):
That's awesome.
Um, I'm gonna change gears alittle bit, Rob.
Do you have anything, anythoughts, any questions,
anything bouncing around in yourbrain?

SPEAKER_00 (44:01):
I have I have a question for you.
Oh, I love uh so you're talkingabout starting your middle
school ministry soon and howthere are different phases.
Uh what are you planning to dodifferent for that service?
I don't know if maybe I'mjumping the gun, you guys
haven't got that far, but do youhave something like a different
way that you're setting it up?
Or like I know space might bedifferent, but what's going to

(44:23):
be different to like cater tothe age range that differs from
your already existing highschool program?

SPEAKER_06 (44:29):
No, that's a great question.
Um, we plan on taking what we doon Wednesdays for middle school
and doing that on Sundays.
Um, so it'll be worship, alesson.
And instead of like intentionalsmall groups, it'll more like
be, hey, we have this manypeople, we have this many
leaders, split up accordingly,um, and have like a light

(44:50):
discussion about it.
And then we still want them hereon Wednesdays, um, but on
Wednesdays it'll be more likelet's play a game and then have
really intentional small groupsabout um the lesson on Sunday.
And so um hopefully that wouldencourage um them to come
because we have a lot ofstudents that we only see them

(45:11):
um on weekend or excuse me, weonly see them on Wednesdays
because they are friends of kidswho are plugged in.
And so our hope and prayer andgoal is that we see them both on
Sundays and um on Wednesdaysjust to capture um capture them
coming, like kind of almost likebuilding up a routine of coming

(45:35):
to church on Sundays.
Um, because unless they're liketheir parents, I'm so sorry if
you can hear that.
I don't know what's happening.

SPEAKER_04 (45:43):
It's fine.

SPEAKER_06 (45:44):
It's cool.

SPEAKER_04 (45:45):
It's funny fun to imagine what's going on, you
know?

SPEAKER_06 (45:49):
Just stuff.
Um gosh.
Sorry, Michael, you have to editthis part.
Um it's all right.

SPEAKER_03 (45:59):
I'm just gonna leave it as is.
Staying in.

SPEAKER_06 (46:01):
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Authenticity.

SPEAKER_03 (46:04):
That's what we're about here.

SPEAKER_06 (46:06):
Yeah, or he's okay.
Um, anyways, that's what we'redoing.
Um having uh a more uhintentional thing on Sundays
because we know we see a lot ofstudents um here on campus, but
they just go to big church andwe just feel like like they

(46:26):
might be totally loving it, butI didn't love it as a middle
schooler.
Uh and so yeah, it's kind ofjust like capture and be like,
hey, we actually haveprogramming for you
specifically.
Um we'd love to see you back onWednesdays um and just try to
get them here kind of like asmuch as possible.
Um, because well, it'simportant.

SPEAKER_00 (46:47):
Yeah.
Go.
So Sunday, are you doing likewhat I would say typical?
Like, are you guys havingworship and you're doing small
groups too, or are you onlygonna do small groups on that
Wednesday night when you havelike a recap?

SPEAKER_06 (47:01):
Yes.
Got it.

SPEAKER_04 (47:04):
All of the above.

SPEAKER_01 (47:05):
All the above.

SPEAKER_00 (47:08):
Can I do one more question?

SPEAKER_04 (47:09):
Yeah, man.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (47:10):
I'm I'm along for the ride.

SPEAKER_04 (47:11):
You're in charge.

SPEAKER_01 (47:12):
I didn't want to steal the show.
Hey, you did.

SPEAKER_00 (47:15):
I get you didn't steal it, I gave it to you.
Thanks, buddy.
Uh what do you see as okay, letme preface this question.
All parts of a service areimportant, but where do you feel
like your students grow themost?
And like what do they hang on tothe most uh in your service?
Like if you had to choose oneelement and you're like, okay,

(47:36):
from now on, service will onlybe this one thing.
Like, what do you see as thething that they're really
grasping onto the most eachweek?

SPEAKER_04 (47:46):
And the answer can be different for different age
groups.
Sorry.
100%.

SPEAKER_00 (47:49):
I should have given you an age category.

SPEAKER_01 (47:51):
Why don't you do middle school and then high
school?
That way you can.
And preteen.

SPEAKER_06 (47:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Preteens, I know.

SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
Can someone on this podcast stand up for preteens?
Would anybody talk aboutpreteens for once?
Oh my gosh.
Sorry.

SPEAKER_06 (48:06):
No, it's fine.
I know y'all are joking, but I'man Enneagram nine, and that was
conflict.

SPEAKER_00 (48:12):
Well, that was a lot for you.

SPEAKER_02 (48:14):
Y'all figured that out for your two.

SPEAKER_00 (48:16):
It was just a bit.
I'm a nine two.
We were just going with it.

SPEAKER_02 (48:19):
You can't be a nine-wing two.
It's not how we see it.

SPEAKER_01 (48:22):
Oh my gosh.
We cannot.
I don't want to talk about theEnneagram on this podcast.
Enneagram.
Oh my gosh.
Hey, if you could choose onepart for each age group.

SPEAKER_04 (48:32):
Actually, wait a second.
Would it be fun?
I've been thinking about whatwe're going to do next season on
the podcast, Michelle.
Valued listener, I'm asking.

SPEAKER_06 (48:41):
Really?

SPEAKER_04 (48:42):
Um the and this idea just popped into my head.
What if we had like one personfrom every number type on the
podcast?
And it's like youth ministry asa one, youth ministry as a two,
youth ministry as a three.
Would that be fun?

SPEAKER_06 (49:00):
Only if I get dibs.

SPEAKER_04 (49:02):
Would you listen to all of them or just the nine
one?
I would skip.

SPEAKER_06 (49:04):
No, I'd listen to all of them because even in like
working with differentEnneagrams in the workspace is
important as well, whetheryou're in ministry youth
ministry or not.
Like my lead pastor, he's aneight.
My counterpartner, he's a nine.
So like we have all these other,you know, numbers.
So it's great to like kind offigure out how to work alongside

(49:26):
of them.
Um, both in a workspace as avolunteer, um, as a parent.
Like, I think it's a great idea,Brad.

SPEAKER_04 (49:36):
I'll think about it.
What'd you say?

SPEAKER_01 (49:41):
No, this is your show.

SPEAKER_06 (49:44):
I know a lot of people are against it, but I
think it's if it's used as atool and not an excuse, I think
Annie Mgram is great.

SPEAKER_04 (49:52):
That'll preach.
I like never mind.
Um you asked a great question,and I I carelessly and
thoughtlessly took us down adifferent path.
So I want you to ask it again.
That was great.
Because oh yeah, I know.
Most important element of a of aprogram for each age group,

(50:15):
preteen junior high, highschool.

SPEAKER_06 (50:18):
For high school.
Um, I, you know, I would just Ihave always assumed it would be
small groups, but more recentlyit has been um the sermons.
Um, you know, kids are cryingwhen we're done because of a
realization or you know,whatever.

(50:39):
Um, and they are missing smallgroups because they're talking
to a leader about what theyheard.
Um that's been the past coupleweeks here.
Um for middle schoolers, I wouldsay small groups, um, because
just like being able to eitherverbally process out loud or
like hear other people do that,and or just really just like

(51:01):
relationships throughconversations with their peers
through their um small groupleaders.
I think that's where they umreally kind of thrive in that
area.
Um preteens.
I feel like on the drive homewith a parent is probably the
best.
That's such a great answer.

SPEAKER_04 (51:21):
That's a really good answer.
That is a really, really goodanswer.
Oh and the fact that you getlike that that is part of the
program.
You know what I mean?
Like that's something that wehave to be thinking about.
That's a really good answer.
Go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 (51:34):
Thank you.
If you have any positionsopening, let me know.
Um just kidding for all thosewho I know I'm not leaving.
Okay.
Um, unless the Lord tells me to,then I'm open to it.
Anyways, I think for preteens,hearing it, you know, watching a

(51:55):
video about it, having adiscussion about it, they're
still thinking, hopefully, liketheir brains are again still
developing.
And so I think having thoseconversations with a parent of
like, hey, what did you learn?
Or knowing what they learned andbe like, you learned about these
things, can we talk about itmore?
Um, on the drive home later thatnight, um, I think is really

(52:16):
kind of where they shine ofbeing able to like process and
talk it out and kind of reallylike understand what their
lesson was about.

SPEAKER_04 (52:28):
Did you end of end of line of questioning?
Yeah.
Or okay, great.
That was great.

SPEAKER_01 (52:33):
Um clip that last part.
That's like the headliner.

SPEAKER_04 (52:38):
It was awesome.
It was very awesome.
Um you said clip that, and Ijust that's the wrong that was
the wrong phrase.
What no, it was the rightphrase, but why are you bringing
your brain rot language onto mypodcast?
Clip that chat.
Okay.
Um this is such a good episode.

SPEAKER_03 (53:05):
Thanks.

SPEAKER_04 (53:06):
Anyway, Rob, um I'm glad that you asked those
questions.
Pull yourself together, man.

SPEAKER_01 (53:12):
I'm back.
I'm back.

SPEAKER_04 (53:12):
Um sorry.
Glad that you asked thosequestions because it's like it
it it highlights the need to,like, if that's true.
If and I believe honestly thatthese the answers to those
questions might be different indifferent contexts.
Like within your church, Ibelieve what you're saying is
true.
Someone else who lives in acompletely different part of the

(53:33):
country and caters to acompletely different uh
demographic of students mighthave a different answer, and
that's great.
But no matter what, being ableto say, like, okay, my high
schoolers are really respondingto teaching.
How do I program aroundteaching?
Okay, my junior high studentsare really responding to small
groups.
How do I program to emphasizesmall groups?

(53:54):
Okay, my preteen students, etcetera, et cetera.
You know, it just kind of likecontinues to feed into this
conversation aboutintentionality, not just in a
way that's like, oh, I can talkto a high school student in a
different way than I can talk toa preteen, but they are actually
like creating differentexperiences based on how they

(54:15):
encounter Jesus and and whatthey need in order to kind of
take that next step and andfollowing the Lord, I think is
just a really, really coolthing.
Um I I want to um have one morelittle kind of kind of side
conversation here.
Um it's still about what we'retalking about, it's not about
the Enneagram, I promise.

(54:36):
Um But uh over the course of ourconversation, I might offend you
when I ask this question, and ifI do, you can say so, and that's
okay, but I'm gonna ask it.
Um over the course of ourconversation, I feel like a
couple of different times youhave said things that indicated

(54:57):
that maybe uh you have apersonal standard that by
dividing out the programming youwere not able to meet.
Um like the specific example islike the preteen.
You were talking about preteenministry, and you're like, I d I

(55:19):
show a video and we do this, andthat's kind of what we can do
right now.
Um I feel like it's possiblethat there are youth pastors out
there who want to split up, youknow, their group, and feel like
maybe they're getting close to atime where that would be a
necessity.
And they're sitting in theiroffice thinking, okay, my

(55:42):
programming for junior high andhigh school students is like an
eight right now on my ownpersonal scale.
I feel really good about whereit's at.
If I split this up, I am notgoing to be able to create like
the high school, they can keepthe eight, it's pretty much

(56:02):
gonna stay the same.
Uh if you if you have mixedprogramming, most people will
cater to the older people in theroom because they would rather
people miss something that'sover their head than check out
because of something that's butthat's beneath them.
So high schoolers, you get tokeep the eight.
I'm not gonna create this juniorhigh program.
Um, and I d I don't think thatwith the time, with the

(56:26):
bandwidth, with the resourcesthat I have, that that can be an
eight.
So I am going to not.
I'm gonna just keep my I'm gonnakeep this where I have it uh
because I feel really good aboutwhere it's at.
I feel like I hear you say umthat in this respect, when it

(56:48):
comes to your context, you'rekind of saying, we really
believe that something is betterthan nothing.
Um we really believe that likecreating programming for
preteens, creating programmingfor junior high, creating
programming for high school isimportant enough that even if
right now, in this moment intime, we have space constraints,

(57:10):
we have personnel restraints, wehave whatever restraints that
are gonna keep us from beingable to like hit home runs, we
are okay with going up there andhitting singles and doing what
we can do.
Um so this is a very, very longway of of kind of asking um this

(57:31):
question.
Um what would you say?
I'm just curious how you wouldlike encourage somebody who's
thinking about this and on thefence and really perceives that
there's gonna be like a drop-offin quality if they're taking

(57:53):
their limited amount of time andsaying, okay, instead of using
my time to do one thing, I'm nowgonna be using my time to do two
things, and that's gonna causesome suffering when it comes to
quality.
So uh I might have just madezero sense in in any words that
I said.
I don't know.
Do you want to respond to that?

SPEAKER_06 (58:15):
First off, I actually am offended, um just in
a general sense.

SPEAKER_04 (58:19):
So you don't want to work here anymore?
Cool, fine.

SPEAKER_06 (58:22):
No way they do.
Um well, I think yeah, like yousaid, it's different for every
situation.
There, I know there's some youthpastors who um I know a couple
weeks ago, maybe it was a month,I listened a couple weeks ago.
You had someone on here who waslike volunteering and he's like
the youth pastor, and he has aanother full-time job.

SPEAKER_04 (58:43):
Jordan Francis, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (58:45):
Yes.
So I was like, dang, that'swild.
Um, what like that's a lot ofdedication to the Lord.
And I was really refreshing tohear uh to hear that.
And so I know he's gonna be alot more limited than someone
who is full-time.
Um so take this with a grain ofsalt or a rock.

(59:09):
I don't know what the oppositeof a grain of salt is, but um
like it is, I think it isdifferent for every situation.

SPEAKER_04 (59:16):
Um timing, buildings, is it one of those
like pink Himalayan salt lamps?

SPEAKER_06 (59:23):
Dude, I have one.
It's great.

SPEAKER_04 (59:24):
I don't know if it's that the opposite of a grain of
salt or like a mountain.

SPEAKER_06 (59:29):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (59:30):
Are there mountains of salt?

SPEAKER_06 (59:32):
No, but it's big.

SPEAKER_04 (59:35):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (59:36):
Anyway.

SPEAKER_06 (59:41):
If you know, call us at ci.com 417 m.ci.com.

SPEAKER_04 (59:49):
That's where you can send it.
Yeah, sure.
All right, so what the oppositem hester, yeah.
Okay, sorry I interrupted you.
You said something and it reallyjust I could not stop thinking
about it.

SPEAKER_06 (59:58):
That's fine.
Uh Take it with a lot ofimportance or not at all.
How about that?

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:03):
That's great.

SPEAKER_06 (01:00:04):
Um, I think for a youth pastor who is a volunteer.
Um, I think, and I know hischurch is like growing, he's
trying to do more.
Um I think sometimes you justhave to do what is possible for
your own sanity, your mentalhealth, your Sabbath, your time

(01:00:25):
with your family.
Um, I think you have to dowhat's best.
Um and see whatever do be dowhatever you're able to do.
Um, I think for I think kind oflike the church I grew up in was
we had maybe 30 kids in middleschool and high school.

(01:00:46):
Um, we still were able toseparate, but it was in the same
hour and we were literallyclassrooms right next to each
other.
Um, but there was still that,excuse me, and then in I think
of like a larger scale, kind ofthe church I'm at.
Um I think an encouragementwould be um maybe talk to your

(01:01:09):
students, talk to your highschoolers.
If it's like, hey, do you feeldo you like having middle
schoolers around?
Because if not, and that's likea a con of coming, because you
have to deal with either yoursibling or just someone, you
know, smelly boys who don't knowhow to take showers or a
deodorant.
If that's a con of you notcoming to church, okay, well,

(01:01:32):
like let's figure that out.
Or middle schoolers, like, doyou feel intimidated by having
older students in the room whereyou're nervous and you're scared
you're all mess up or dosomething dumb?
Okay, let's like let's figurethat out.
I think sometimes too, likethere might be middle schoolers
and high schoolers who don'tcare because that's just the

(01:01:53):
culture that they've built,which I think is great.
Um, but I think sometimes itmight just come down to
preference of the student, oflike just physically being
around students, um, either alot younger or a lot older.
Um, so I think having um theopinion of um students is
something to consider.

(01:02:13):
I don't think it you base offeverything off of their opinion.
They their brains aren't fullydeveloped, they don't know.
Um, but I think at the end ofthe day, there is um just a lot
of value in the separation.
And so maybe sit down and figureout, okay, maybe who can lead

(01:02:36):
middle school while I lead highschool, or vice versa, or can I
in the same hour and a half timeblock, I teach two less.
That's what we do.
Like one person teaches twice ona Wednesday.
It's like, is that is thatphysically possible?
Um or it's like, hey, you guysgo outside and play a game while

(01:02:56):
high school learns and weswitch, or you know, I think
there's lots of different waysof doing that.
Um but it's hard because it'slike uh words.
Um just trying to figure outokay, at what point is it most

(01:03:17):
important for students to beseparated?
I think the other half is whatare you physically able to do
without getting burnt out,without um losing yourself to um
to make this happen?
I think it's kind of like thatgray area of meeting in the
middle and compromising of likehow can you how can we both how

(01:03:42):
can I make this happen for mystudents, but also not lose
myself, have a Sabbath, havetime with family, um, the thing,
things like that.
And so um I think every churchis gonna be different, every um
culture, every part of this, youknow, part of the country, it's
all different.

(01:04:03):
And so whatever it's like, Iknow there's a lot of like what
we're this is off topic.
I'm really sorry, but like whatwe're facing right now is our
students won't come to eventsoutside of Wednesday, no matter
how cool they are.
And so we're like, okay, butthere's I know there's other
churches, they only kids onlycome to the fun stuff, and so
it's like okay, you just have tofigure out what that culture

(01:04:26):
looks like um and see what um isgonna be best for your student.
I obviously this is something Ithink is important, and so it's
like do your best to make thishappen, but I'm not in your
shoes, I don't know where you'reat, I don't know your schedule,
um, your building your thespaces and places, things like

(01:04:46):
that.
Um I just see a lot of value inum having that separated time,
and so maybe just try your best,get wise counsel.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:58):
Um and I know some leadership is like so pro
students, I know there's otherleadership, they're like, you're
still here.
Um I have been blessed with ourthree of our uh three, two, one,
a number of them out of thethree, at least two of them used
to be youth pastors, and sothere's that like heart for

(01:05:20):
students, and we've I've likereally been blessed by that, but
I've also uh the church I wasgrowing up in, I didn't really
feel that.
And so I know that can be hardas well, but try to see just
like why it's council um networkwith churches around your um
your city and just kind offigure out maybe what works for

(01:05:41):
them.
Um yeah, all that to say, justtry your hardest.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:46):
Try your hardest.
No, I think um that puts kind ofan ice old bow on our
conversation.
And like when I pull all of thereally great things that you've
said together, um, it's kind oflike, hey, this is worth it for
us.
Um you have had to be creativein how you've figured out what

(01:06:09):
that looks like, including uh toyour point about not
overextending yourself, likegetting other people paying them
for 10 hours a week um to tohelp facilitate.
Um but I do love that you guyswere willing to say, like, hey,
this isn't gonna be this isn'tthe ideal yet.
We're gonna continue to worktoward the ideal, um, especially

(01:06:32):
when you have more space.
But like just getting studentsaround other students who are
their age where they can likefully be themselves, um, has
been a win for you guys, I thinkis uh just a really encouraging
thing.
So Michelle, think you're great.

(01:06:54):
Thanks for coming on.
Thanks for chatting about this.
Thanks for being a rock solidyouth pastor.

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:01):
Stop.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:02):
It's true.

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:05):
Well, I love CIY with all my heart, so I love
being able to do anything I canto help.
Well, we love y'all don't domailbag anymore.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:14):
I know.
So do you want to ask a mailbagquestion right now for old
time's sake?

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:18):
Wow.
I don't remember any of the onesI asked.
Actually, no, wait, there wasone I thought about the other
day, and I was like, well, toobad they don't they don't do
that no more.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:27):
But you can't remember.
Do you okay well on that note?

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:33):
Oh wait, wait, wait, I remembered.
Um the things y'all the thingy'all do on Halloween for all
the staff kids.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:40):
Scare not share.
I mean share not scare.
We share, we don't scare.
Right.

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:48):
I mean is there is there's a share.

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:51):
That was not a that was not a question.

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:53):
Okay.
Tell me about it.
Will you please tell me aboutit?

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:59):
Rob's one did one of your kids win an award?

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:02):
Yeah, not this year.
Oh last year.
Last year.
Yeah.
We all went as Lord of the Ringscharacters.
Oh wow.
The kids are poppets.
We won.
Highlight of my life, actually.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:14):
Well, so I think I think um Share Not Scare started
originally as just uh like a funlittle, hey, everybody have
candy by your desks.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:21):
And when I when I started, it was fully a work
day.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:25):
And I would I had a bowl of candy at my desk, and
kids would come around and saytrick or treat, and I would give
them a races cup, and that wasthat.
And they would move around.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:35):
I think that was 2019.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:37):
Yes.
That was 2018 and 2019.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:40):
Yes.
Yeah.
Oh, you and then for me.
Yeah.
And then in 2020, we did moretrunk or treat style.
And then the stakes raised thecoronavirus.
Yeah.
Um and there was like a sort ofcompetition that was set up that
whoever um like whoever had thebest decorated trunk, because we

(01:09:01):
were doing literal like cartrunks.
Um uh whoever had the bestdecorated trunk um would win
some kind of prize.
And I think it was voted on byprobably the kids.
Um and then from there it hasevolved and escalated to the
point where now it's we uh weteam up based on wings in the
office.

(01:09:21):
Um and and it it is fullycompetition based, or at least
it hasn't for the last severalweeks.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:30):
But here's the thing there is one wing in the
building that I will not givethe gratification of naming.
Yeah, yeah.
And they sweat over this thing.
They do.
It is so pathetic.
They went too far.
Well, they went too far.
They tried too hard.
They went so far last year thatthey had to put like guardrails
in place this year.
Yes, where it's like you can'tstart decorating until the day

(01:09:53):
before.
Yep.
Because they were like oh gosh.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:58):
They were spend yes, yeah, yeah.
We're not outing anyone.
They I didn't say a wing.
We won't say I didn't say awing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:05):
It rhymes with schmest.
Um tried so hard.
It's more schmest uh so far, butin the end, it didn't even
matter.
Didn't even matter.
Yeah, it's just a couple bucks.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:16):
Um it's like it's like a lunch.
It's like a wing.
Literally a lunch.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:19):
That's all um No, I think they give you a$100 gift
card to split.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:23):
It's not like it's like the office.
So really you want to work inwhatever I want to work in
whatever wing has the fewestamount of people.
Yeah.
Um yeah, and and you know what?
This year, my opinion, probablyone of the best um share not
scares we've had because it wasall cute.
You know, it was just likenothing fell over the top, in my
opinion.
It was just like just like, ohwow, it's really cute.

(01:10:47):
Because um, because nobody waslike decorating a whole week
before.
Right.

SPEAKER_06 (01:10:53):
So I saw yeah, I saw some pictures and I was like, I
want to know more about this.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:58):
Yeah.
Well, now you know, and I can'twait for all the people when
this episode comes out inDecember to hear about our
Halloween adventures.
Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas, everybody.
Um, but yeah, no, that was agreat mailbag question.
Thanks, Michelle, as always, foryour participation.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:15):
Valued listener and valued question askers.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:17):
Valued question askers.

SPEAKER_06 (01:11:18):
I will say I've liked the mic'ed up mic,
whatever y'all call it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:23):
I like it too.

SPEAKER_06 (01:11:25):
Can you mention the no, go ahead, I was done.
I was raining for you.
No, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:33):
I just said I was gonna say I had to force Michael
to do that.
It's true.
He was like, I don't want to dothis, and I said, but too bad
it's happening.
Yeah, that's pretty much how itwent.
And it's been great, right?

SPEAKER_06 (01:11:44):
Um it has.
I've enjoyed you mentioned uhworship circle or the all those
old songs.
I was like, oh, this is so good.
It was great.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:54):
It's really good.
Wait, did he actually turn youon to it?

SPEAKER_06 (01:11:57):
Oh, I love it so much.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:59):
Because it's a good album.
Uh that's great.

SPEAKER_06 (01:12:01):
I was like, wow, I feel like my childhood is just
it's all right here.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:06):
It's all happening.
It's being it's being broughtback and it's being honored.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:12:10):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:10):
Amen.
Yeah, not as like it broughtback, not as a punchline of a
joke.
Yeah.
Which is nice.
Yeah.
Anyway.
All right, Michelle.
We've taken up too much of yourtime and uh really appreciate
you in the it's your day off.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:23):
Just on your day off.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:24):
Well, then we're definitely taking up too much of
your time.

SPEAKER_06 (01:12:27):
I was just at home sewing.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:30):
Oh we appreciate you a lot.
Take care.

SPEAKER_06 (01:12:35):
Thanks.
Too loo.
Thanks, Michelle.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:41):
Okay, Rob.
It's time.
It's time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:45):
It's time for you to add somebody to our wall of
honor.
So excited.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:53):
Who are we doing?
For the wall of honor, I have myboy Justin Halleck.
He is the upstreet director atAthens Church, as you probably
guessed in Athens.
He is the man, he is absolutelykilling it.
Uh, Justin, if you're listeningto this, you run an absolutely
amazing program, but you do itwith humility.

(01:13:13):
You do it super well, you'resuper organized, blows me away.
Um, and fun fact, Justindirected his first superstart
last year.
I think we're trying to have himback again for more.
So why wouldn't you?
We we love him.
He does an awesome job.
So you are on the board ofhonor.

SPEAKER_04 (01:13:29):
Uh, fun fact, graduated from high school in
2009, went to Bible college.
Uh Justin was the youth pastorat another church in my
hometown.
And after my freshman year ofhigh school, I called him up and
I said, Justin, can I intern foryou?
I'll do it for free.
And he said, Yeah.
And I got to hang out with himall summer in 2010.

(01:13:52):
And he's a very important personin my ministry journey, so I'm
glad you chose him.
I did not know that.
Dude, you didn't know that?
No.
I that's a crazy.
I take full credit for us beingin Athens Church.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:03):
I can't believe that that has happened to you.
I did I literally didn't knowthat.
Oh my gosh.
That's incredible.
Well, now I love him even more.
Even more!

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:11):
Thank you for picking Justin.
Also, thank you, Justin, fortaking time.
Um, it takes a lot of work tomentor somebody, and I
appreciate you doing that in mylife.
Thank you for the work thatyou're doing at Athens Church.
Thanks to Michael.
Thanks to Lauren.
Thanks to Rob Watson.
Thanks to his son Trip.
As Gary the Potato.

(01:14:34):
Next week we'll be back.
Not next week, in two weekswe'll be back.
Uh to wrap up this series, we'llbe talking about uh we'll be
talking about keeping juniorhigh and high school students
together and some of thebenefits of that in specific
context as well.
So uh if you don't want to missthat, be sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
See you next time.