April 29, 2024 • 52 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello, this is Brad Warren and you are listening to
Beyond the Event, a youthministry podcast presented by
Christ in Youth, where we helpyou maintain momentum between
the mountaintops.
I've got a really, reallyinteresting conversation lined
up for you today.
It's one that is challenging,it's one that we get asked to
talk about quite a bit, and ithas to do with how we navigate
(00:26):
different hot button orchallenging issues in youth
ministry.
The bottom line is, no matterhow you feel about LGBTQ issues,
there are people that you servewho are affirming of people who
are part of that community andthere are people in your
(00:47):
community who are not affirmingof people who are part of that
community.
And no matter how you feelabout abortion, there are people
you serve who are pro-choiceand there are people you serve
who are pro-life.
And no matter how you feelabout race relations, there are
people you serve who think thatwe are in a good place with race
(01:08):
relations in this country andthere are people you serve who
think we are in a bad place withrace relations in this country
and those issues have becomekind of identity markers for
people and that's unfortunate.
But we need to have aconversation about what it looks
like to navigate some of thoseissues in a way that is truthful
(01:31):
, in a way that is full of truth, but also in a way that is full
of grace, and so we're going totalk to Matthew McBirth about
that.
He is super duper qualified tospeak into these issues.
He lives in Joplin, here withus.
He's the director ofmulticultural affairs at Ozark
Christian College and he alsoserves as a professor of Bible
(01:54):
and ministry there.
He's working on his PhD in NewTestament.
I only tell you that so thatyou know that he's smarter than
me, but Matthew is a reallythoughtful, well-studied man who
will have a lot of great thingsto say about an issue that is
really, really challenging for alot of people.
(02:15):
And that's how do we talk aboutthings that are controversial
in a way that honors Jesus.
So let's head over to myconversation with Matthew.
Matthew McBirth almost DrMatthew McBirth- Thank you for
(02:37):
being here.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Glad to be here.
Thanks, Brad.
One year left, hopefully, godwilling, one year left.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah, well, thank you in your very rigorous schedule,
I'm sure, for making time to behere with us today.
It's super cool.
A lot of people might not knowyou yet.
People who are familiar withthe Ozark Christian College
world may, listening to thispodcast, will know you after
this summer, which is excitingfor me because you're going to
(03:09):
be teaching at MOVE.
Oh no, you're not.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I'm not, I thought you were.
I told Lane no, actually forthis summer, so I don't know if
you want to start over Jokes on?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
No, I don't.
I want everybody to know whatthey're missing out on.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Joke's on me Because of that almost doctorate, oh
yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
So we see how this is throwing a wrench in
everybody's system.
Yes, yes, yes so maybe sometimein the future you'll get to
meet Matthew McBirth and you'lllook back on this conversation
fondly, yes, and remember all ofthe wonderful things that you
heard from him.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I was just talking to him and he was like not that
long ago.
When did you tell him no?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
it was like a month ago, I think Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, I must've been talking to him like five weeks
ago and he was so excited.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
He was like yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Matthew McBurth.
It's going to be so great Ifelt terrible.
Well yeah, don't feel bad, man.
You're told him you got a lotgoing on I'll.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Life is all about balance and I applaud you for
making that choice.
So you'll be working on able tobe this weird group of Jews and
Gentiles, and yet they see eachother as family.
It seems that hospitality wasthe language and practices that
they used to figure that out,and I'm trying to recapture that
for the church today.
(04:47):
So how can we practicehospitality corporately within
our churches, within our localcommunities, and truly be a
people that's unified even inthe midst of diversity?
So, yeah, that's been a lot offun studying that over the last
few years.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah.
Excited to be able to make thatpaper well, I my simple mind
you can correct me if I'm wrongsee a very logical connection
between, uh, what you'redescribing and kind of what
we're talking about today, whichis hard things to talk about.
Yeah, definitely.
So there, I mean, pick yourpoison right there are a billion
hot button issues out there,and I say that and one popped
(05:31):
into everybody who is listeningto this mind, and I don't know
what that one is, but it mightbe abortion, it could be how we
relate to the LGBT community, itcould be race relations, it
could be a trillion things Right, but there are all of these
kind of like identity politicsissues where you know, in our
circles maybe pro-life good,pro-choice bad, and you are
(05:57):
defined by the way that you kindof answer that question.
So I want to talk to you abouthow we address, not about the
issues themselves Everybodywho's listening probably has
their theology nailed down ofany given issue but more, how do
we pastor people who might notor who might disagree with us?
(06:19):
So the reason that I wanted totalk to you about this is
because Ozark Christian College,where you work, does a really
cool thing that I got tointeract with a little bit
called Mosaic.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Lunches.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And I want you to just kind of cast the vision for
what Mosaic Lunches are.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Definitely yeah.
So this is something that westarted when I got hired on
there, so 2016 would have beenthe first semester that we
started doing these thingscalled Mosaic Lunches.
So the idea is this Most often,whenever we're having these
conversations about thesepolitical topics or cultural
topics like race or sexuality,identity, it is usually not a
(06:57):
conversation.
It is usually social media,which is not a good place for
conversation, or it's someonebeing taught at, being lectured
to on where they stand.
And we said how about weactually sit down at tables and
talk about these hot topics andactually believe that we can
(07:23):
remain unified in Christ andhear differences between one
another?
And so that was the idea.
And so, starting off in 2016,talking about things, if you
remember, at that time, blackLives Matter was on its way up
and that ended up being one ofthe first conversations that we
ended up having is what is BlackLives Matter?
What is this rhetoric of alllives matter and just saying
(07:44):
let's try to understand bothsides and can we be charitable
and can we be also critical andbe able to hear each other out
really believing that we canstay unified in Jesus?
And so we see that happening inthe New Testament church and so
we wanted to try to do thatwith 18 to 22 year olds and been
doing it ever since and it'sbeen going up pretty well.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, that's awesome.
You used a word that I want tohave you hone in on a little bit
, which is the word charitable.
I think there's a thing thatpops into people's head when
they hear that word.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
What do you mean when you say?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
like.
Can we be charitable to eachother?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah for sure.
So when I say charitable, Imean trying to find reasons to
give a positive comment on theother side.
So, instead of immediatelythinking everything this person
believes about this topic iswrong, we go into it with the
assumption that actually it'sprobably going to be a mixed bag
(08:39):
.
A mixed bag they probably havesome things that are wrong
because we're humans, but theyalso probably have some things
that are biblical and found inthe scripture or the person of
Jesus, and so we want toactually seek that out.
I was listening to a sermonrecently and the guy said
(08:59):
Christians are weird peoplebecause we truly believe
everyone's made in the image ofGod and we can state that,
though we hear that all the time.
But he said you actually have tobelieve it and then see it.
And that is very counter to ourworld, especially with these
identity politics that we wantto be able to put people into
(09:20):
boxes and label it and thereforewe don't have to deal with it
anymore of boxes and label itand therefore we don't have to
deal with it anymore.
And so when I say charitable, Imean I want to look for
something that I can say, yeah,that sounds like image of
God-beariness, that soundsbiblical to me, that sounds like
love or justice or whatever itmight be.
And then, keeping that criticalpiece in mind too, that doesn't
(09:41):
mean that everything's goodabout it either, and so what
normally happens is one groupmight be doing this, but the
other group is not doing it aswell, and so if no one's going
to do it for me, then I put up awall and I'm not going to do it
for them either.
So, it creates just these wallsand it creates just lectures.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It's almost like you have to come to the table
together Exactly In order for itto bear any fruit.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
And that's what I love about the Mosaic Lunch is
it is round tables.
Again, we're working withstudents, and so they've been in
class all morning.
They have been in the sit infront of the sometimes the stage
, on the stage model wherethey've just been, you know,
lectured to on things that arereally important for them to
(10:29):
know that they don't have a lotof information on.
But to be in class for hoursand then go to another lecture
is not going to work, and so wesaid we are going to do it in a
space that has round tables andactually have conversation with
people who are on quote unquotethe stage, but also with people
at the table, and so it ends upbeing helpful.
(10:50):
And over the years, I have seenhow some have come in with a
view.
They sat down at a table withsomeone with the opposite view
and they walked out saying Inever saw it that way before.
I now understand why someonecould be on that side.
The issue was on immigrationand this guy came in and the
(11:15):
student that was also there is asecond generation immigrant,
and so for him to be able tohear his story, to see where
he's coming from, from, doesn'tmean that he's in complete
agreement, even.
But it made more sense of whysomeone might be on that side,
would you say?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
that it.
Is it possible for somebody toengage the way that you're
talking about and not changetheir mind at all?
Like, is it just a dispositionthing, or is it?
Do you think it kind of has tobe accompanied by this
intellectual exercise where youare willing to kind of not be a
(11:50):
slave to your beliefs in somesense?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, I think the person has to come into it with.
I want to know what truth is.
Yeah okay and therefore saying Idon't have all the right
answers.
So there has to be somehumility in the room.
If you come into a saying I'mjust here to fight and be right
about this, and yeah, I'll heartheir side, but just so I can
(12:15):
use it as ammo, right To oh,I've heard that reason.
Now I can think of a counter tothat, so I'm ready for the next
fight.
That's a totally differentcategory.
That's a totally differentcategory.
That's a totally differentarena that we're talking about
with the round tables, and Imean the one that we just talked
about.
That's a boxing arena, right,and there's times for that, for
(12:39):
things like that, with debates,right, but that should not be
our usual.
That should not be our normalat all.
But this is the reason whydebates don't change people's
minds, right?
Hopefully it's okay for me tosay this.
I mean, we're about to come upon maybe a series of debates
when it comes to who's going tobe the next president of the
(13:00):
United States at this time, andhas anyone ever walked into
listening to a debate againstcandidates and walked out being
like, oh, I've changed my mindand I'm going to be for that
person?
Usually not they come in with.
This is where I'm at and that'sbecause what debates do it just
furthers where you stand at.
(13:20):
So I think to your point, brad,humility has to be key.
With it, you come into itsaying I am willing to hear
where I might be wrong and togive in on that, but also be
willing to say and this issometimes even a harder thing be
(13:42):
willing to say brother orsister in Christ.
This is where I see, maybewhere you're wrong.
Right, the hardest part ismaking sure what is the standard
that we are comparing thesethings with.
And often the standard is mythinking, it's my
presuppositions, it's my culture.
Instead of it, jesus andscripture so, yeah, yeah, so you
(14:07):
.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
The words charity and critique, critique kind of
opposite sides of the spectrum,remind me of two other words
grace and truth.
Exactly, um is that?
Is that applicable to thisconversation?
You being an academic?
Oh yeah, it feels like it is,but I want to make sure it is
(14:28):
before we continue to talk.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
It has to be in the sense of, yeah, and I would say,
even in the realms of talkingabout theology, jesus does not
allow us to be only about one ofthose things and certain
aspects of our lives, only aboutone of those things and certain
aspects of our lives, and thatincludes our thinking.
And so I have thought throughmy theology on certain things.
(14:55):
But I'm not just seeking thetruth, I'm also seeking it
through the lens of grace, right, and so I want to hold both of
those in mind.
Yeah, so totally going to beapparent, and you just notice
when someone goes away from oneof those where they end up
leading to.
A passage that comes to my mindis Revelation 3, I believe it is
(15:15):
maybe 2, where Jesus is talkingto the church in Ephesus, and
this seems to be a group ofChristians who know the truth,
and yet he says to them you arelacking something.
He doesn't use the word grace,but he uses the word this you
lack.
You've forgotten your firstlove.
And the consequence that hesays is, if you do not find this
(15:38):
first love is, I will remove mypresence from you.
So I think it's for both sides.
Those who lean a little bitmore towards the truth side need
to hear that, in the sense oflove and grace, is part of the
gospel and how Jesus approachesus.
For those who lean towards morethe grace side and lack of
truth, jesus has a word for themtoo.
He says if you war againsttruth, you end up warring
(16:02):
against the Holy Spirit, and sothe sword of the Spirit will
come.
So I definitely think both ofthose are there.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
But even as you're describing that, I'm seeing like
two sides of a spectrum andsomebody being like pulled
between the ends of a spectrum.
Like don't go too far that way.
Come back over here, Don't gotoo far that way Come back over
here, but that's not what it isLike.
Jesus came full of grace andfull of truth.
(16:29):
And, boy, that gives me anxiety.
I'm not going to lie to you,it's hard, yeah, oh, like, okay,
well, we're going to move onfrom that now.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, no, it's a difficult thing to do.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, it is, it really is.
So I want to talk about the meatof this conversation, I really
think is that there's apractical ministry side to all
of this.
There are youth pastors outthere who have kids in their
youth group who I mean a middleschool or high school student
has not fully fleshed out theirtheology on any issue, right,
fleshed out their theology onany issue, right.
But a lot of them come from profill in the blank families and
(17:11):
opposite of that issue, families, right?
You've got kids in your youthministry who come from pro-life
backgrounds, from pro-choicebackgrounds, from affirming
backgrounds, from non-affirmingbackgrounds, whatever it may be,
and you have got to haveconversations with all these
people.
You've got to stand up on astage and teach these people in
(17:32):
a way that is full of grace andtruth.
So that's what I kind of want totalk to you about is like, if
you're sitting in the seat of aminister and it's like these
issues sitting in the seat of aminister, yeah, and it's like
these issues, they're such loudvoices in our culture and it
might not even be what youreally want to talk about, yeah,
but they're there and I justdon't know.
(17:56):
I mean, I'm not.
I'm going to stop making sensebecause I just don't even know,
like how you're supposed to wadeinto those waters.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
You know what I mean?
Yeah, definitely.
Here's my thinking with it.
First, I want to say this youthpastors have to be one of the
best theologians.
You know if you're a youthpastor, like you have a hard
task.
You know you have to talk aboutbiblical truths with accuracy
(18:26):
to a generation that is youngerthan you so there's a
cross-cultural dynamic there andbe able to make sense to them.
So it is not at all an easything to do, and yet, if you're
a youth pastor, this is whatyou're doing on a regular basis.
So let me start with this.
I do really think it starts intwo areas or maybe it pertains
(18:50):
to two areas that we can saythis there is the area of hard
chair work, of doing theresearch, doing the study, and
then there's the area of lives.
You are interacting with peopleand I find and that might be,
maybe I don't even know thisidea of grace and truth.
(19:11):
Don't want to say that onlytruth is in the hard share and
the grace is in therelationships.
I think it's in both right.
But if we can just say I findthat if you are interacting with
people who have a different,opposing view than your own, if
you're interacting with them nota sense of debate, but just
(19:32):
rubbing shoulders with them,living life, you have them over
for dinner, you go to the sameballgames, whatever it might be,
that just changes how youapproach the conversation.
It doesn't mean it changes yourtheology.
That is a danger.
I think we should just admit.
That is a danger that we wadeinto when we do rub shoulders
(19:52):
with people, that we end uploving them and that our minds
could change because we lovethis person so much.
That's where the truth reallydoes still matter and you have
to be grounded in that.
But we need to actually love onpeople and if my friendships
are only people who agree withme, then it's going to be very
difficult to be able to say whatI believe, even if it's
(20:15):
truthful.
It's going to be hard to saythat with love it's gonna be
hard to say that with love.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
So because, like, yeah, the the other side,
anybody who falls into that camp, yeah, becomes defined by that
thing, whatever, it is rightexactly, and I say ultimately,
we play a game.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Um, we've been living in a world where, um you know,
the marvel cinematic universe ofpromises matters.
Mcu, you're speaking.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Producer michael's language.
Right now we live in a theMarvel Cinematic Universe of
Promises Matters, mcu.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
You're speaking producer Michael's language.
Right now, we live in a MCUimagination.
Everything is heroes andvillains.
Every Marvel movie has a clearvillain and has the clear hero.
Now, do sometimes those heroesmess up?
Sometimes you have somecompassion for the villain maybe
(21:06):
a little bit, but honestly,that's kind of.
In the more later movies it'skind of clear that I don't want
to be for a guy that takespeople's eyes out.
You know, like Loki in Avengers, I'm not for that.
You know when.
When you know Black Panther andEric Killmonger, oh okay, I can
(21:27):
kind of see how he got to wherehe got.
Regardless of, though, we havebeen set up to see the world as
who's the hero, who's thevillain.
That's fun with fiction.
That's not how life operates,and so what we end up doing is
opposing side.
They're the villains, and I'mon the hero side, and so I got
to do anything to be able to winand to protect the people I'm
(21:47):
over.
And when it comes to the gospel, it does operate in heroes and
villains, but it's on a waybigger scale, in the sense of
the one hero is actually not me,no, it's actually Jesus, yeah,
so thank God.
Yes, exactly yeah, he's the hero, and the villain is not the
religious leaders that he'sinteracting with.
(22:09):
The villains are not thedisciples who doubt.
The villains are actually, youknow, demons, death, satan.
It's darkness that you see himconstantly warring against.
And so I think, if we can juststop with this categorizing of
people with their ideas of youknow, if you oppose me, you're
(22:31):
therefore on the villain side,and we don't say it in Heroes
and Villains.
We say left and right.
Now there's one way of sayingthey are left-leaning or they
are very much on the left, andwe can be honest about that.
But when we say that, do we useit as a dismissal?
Yeah, they're on the left, so Idon't have to worry about their
(22:52):
thoughts, their thinking.
They're the villains.
I just have to win this battle.
So you're totally right in thesense of the opposing sides, and
we put a label on them, and Ithink it's because of these
heroes and villains that we'vegrown up with.
So we need to rub shoulderswith people and truly love them,
not just as a way to grow ingrace.
Study side we do our homeworkright.
(23:13):
We actually want to search thescriptures, we want to hear from
and even in doing our homeworkand studying these things, we
see what the opposing side issaying and once again, we're
(23:34):
trying to go into it.
This is a human being whothinks something for a reason I
want to figure out, instead ofmaking a straw man out of them.
So that would be my two bigthings.
I'll tell them is do the hardchair work, do the study, but
also, of course, engage withpeople at the table in your room
(23:58):
, in your living room, in thedining room, in your kitchen or
just in your neighborhood, andsee what happens through that
process, which youth ministersprobably have the opportunity to
do more than just about anybodyelse who works for a church.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yes, right, yes, because kids are bringing their
friends all the time.
You're going to football gamesall the time.
This, that and the other, likeyou can do this.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yes, going to football games all the time.
This, that and the other.
You can do this, and I thinkthere's some bit of this.
I think we come into itwondering what the other side
might think of me, right, well,once they hear I'm a Christian,
they're going to make someassumptions.
That's very true they might.
There's a pastor named BrianLoritz who I like a lot of his
(24:44):
works that he's done, greatpreacher, and he has a book
called Insider Outsider, andit's a different conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I've seen that movie.
No, I'm kidding, that's good.
The sequel's coming out.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yes, yes, yeah exactly Anxiety and, yes, all
these things are going to comeup and whatever her name is.
Anyway, he talks about how hisneighbors, um was, was, was a um
or is a lesbian couple, or atleast I guess was this whenever
he was living in California.
He's known he's no longer thereand um had a pretty good
relationship.
(25:18):
Um with his neighbors went overfor dinner and then they
announced that they were goingto get married.
So he's a pastor and theyannounced this at the dinner
table we're getting married.
Now you know.
His mind immediately goes toare they going to ask me to?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
be the official.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
And so he gets nervous, they tell his whole
demeanor changes in that momentand probably about five minutes
into after saying that, one ofthe ladies just says Brian,
what's wrong?
And he starts I'm happy thatyou all are happy about this,
(26:03):
but you all know I'm a pastorand this is where I'm at, where
my church is at and where Ithink scripture lies.
And they just said, Brian, wewere never going to ask you to
do officiating and we were nevergoing to put you in that
position.
We know where you're at on this.
We love you though, Right.
(26:23):
So I do think there's this likeagain.
I think we go into it thinkingthey're going to immediately
think I'm the villain, Right,and they might.
But I think we've got tocounter that.
We've got to say, if it doesn'toperate in heroes and villains,
like, we just need to startacting like I'm not the villain
in this story, right, andthey're not the villain in the
story.
I'm also not the hero in thestory and they're not the hero
(26:44):
in the story.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
So, yeah, so a lot of what you're talking about is
really relational and I lovethat, like I love the idea of
being in relationship withpeople who hold opposing
viewpoints up to you.
I think it's important in everyaspect of life um.
There's one area where I'mstruggling to see how this
(27:05):
relates, and that's when a youthpastor has to get up on a stage
and teach about somethingbecause you kind of lose the
relational component when youwalk out on a stage.
You know what I mean.
Now I don't think there are alot of youth ministries out
there who are doing series onrace relations or whatever, you
(27:29):
know what I mean.
It would be a five-part series,but also, if you're being true
to scripture, you are going tocross areas that talk about life
and what that means, and totalk about sexuality and
whatever.
So how do you take all of thisstuff and apply it to like
teaching?
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
So a few thoughts on it.
Let me give the one that's mostimportant and if I forget it,
the other one, it's fine,because it's lesser important.
It was of less importance.
If I forget the other one, it'sfine because it's of less
importance.
When it comes to the study, Ioften get up and give a sermon
or a lesson on stuff like this.
The way you know that you'reprepared is not just that you've
(28:12):
done the exegetical work andyou found this is what the text
seems to be saying, but you havedone so much work in looking at
the text through the other lensthat the opposing side is
thinking and you're just tryingto see how they could have got
where they got right.
So you look at the text withthat different interpretation
(28:34):
and be able to say, oh, when Icome into it with this
presupposition, I can see howthis text seems to be saying
that now, right Doesn't meanit's right, right, so I can see
that and that will prepare youto be able to talk about it
better.
Right, which means you arestudying.
This is where it gets difficult.
This means you do listen to thevoices that do take the
(28:56):
opposing side.
You do hear where they are at Apastor within the Christian
church movement, calebKaltenbach, pastor out in
California at Shepherd.
I believe, written a book calledMessy Grace.
He is good friends, I haveheard While he was in the same
(29:18):
building a fellow faculty membersaid this and he didn't deny it
.
Okay, so there we go.
He is at least in contact within a text messaging relationship
with Matthew Vines.
And Matthew Vines is totally ofthe affirming side when it
comes to sexuality that theBible is affirming.
When it comes to marriage oflesbians and gay marriages, he
(29:44):
has that relationship with him.
He studies what Matthew Vinesdoes, right, so he can actually
see this is where he comes from.
Now it doesn't mean you need togo and get a relationship with
Matthew Vines.
Okay, good luck with that ifyou don't interact with him.
But are you studying howMatthew Vines gets where he gets
?
Gets that way when you get upon the stage, you've done your
(30:05):
homework and you saw it fromthat perspective.
I think it changes how youtherefore talk about it.
So that's the first thing ofimportance.
Second thing of importance, andthat's of lesser importance do
you lose the relationship in thesense of it's no longer a
dialogue?
You certainly do.
If you're preaching it fromstage, maybe that's kind of a
(30:29):
bad thing with how we preach.
It doesn't mean it can't be adialogue, right Actually, with
the person preaching and thenallowing for audience
participation.
Especially on topics like this,it might be a good idea to do
that very thing.
Questions, pushbacks, thoughtson this.
I want to study the text withyou.
All right, that actually allowsfor people's walls to go down,
(30:54):
right?
Oh, the preacher's actuallywanting to hear how I'm going to
respond to what he or she justsaid.
Okay, this changes it.
Secondly, if you actually havebeen doing that hard work of
relationship building, you don'tlose the relational capital,
(31:16):
right, you bring that up therewith you.
I have talked to the studentsin the room who actually side
with that side, and the samething with the relationship that
Brian Lewis talks about.
They already know where I'm at,they know my heart, so that
relational capital doesn't goaway.
So you've built that and soyou're taking that up there with
(31:37):
you.
I'll say this last thing andthen I'll show up for a little
bit here.
I find this with trainingstudents to study the Bible and
I've just seen this in my yearsof following Christ we do a good
job of teaching people to studythe Bible by themselves.
We do not do a good job ofteaching people how to study the
(31:58):
Bible communally, and so themoment that it finally becomes
community is when we teach orpreach.
But no, it should be the entireprocess that I'm studying this
with people and we kind of do itcommunally when we're reading
commentaries or looking upvideos.
But we should be saying, if I'mgoing to preach on something
(32:21):
for my local church and we'redoing it with history and in the
community, I better be talkingwith people in the community or
in my location about this verything to hear their thoughts on
it.
So it's the same thing with anyof these topics Study the text
in community.
I think you're going to be ableto bring that out more when it
comes to your lessons.
Yeah, in community.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I think you're going to be able to bring that out
more when it comes to yourlessons.
Yeah, it's funny because youwere talking about how we don't
really have to lose thatrelational aspect in a sermon.
It's harder work to make asermon a conversation, but one
of the most profound memoriesthat I have of something like
(33:01):
this is, after the killing ofGeorge Floyd, you and your
father-in-law, mark Scott,getting on stage at College
Heights and having aconversation Like hey, well, the
people who are listening tothis can't see you, you are
black and your father-in-law iswhite.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
And for you guys to be able to stand on stage and
say, hey, this is wherescripture actually, you know, is
in all of this, I think waslike a really big deal.
What do you remember about thatexperience?
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah, it's kind of it's.
It's fascinating.
First of all, yeah, that was myfirst time preaching with my
father-in-law.
I guess it was actually my onlytime.
But we did preach that sermonthree times, twice at college
heights and then once foranother church that heard it, so
we did it there, so I guessfour times.
We had two services, and so itwas a very enjoyable time.
First time ever co-preaching,which, if anyone's ever preached
(33:58):
before preaching by itself,it's hard enough.
Having to preach with someoneelse is even more difficult.
But my father-in-law is anamazing preacher, so it did not
feel that way at all, though itdid not feel that way at all.
(34:19):
So what I remember from thatwas 90% of it was well-received,
in the sense of 90% of thecongregation, I think, received
it well, being able to hear someof my stories, my feedback or
stories that I heard from otherpeople in the congregation,
being able to bring that into it.
There was actually somenegative stuff from it and I
think I don't know.
I say this in the sense of welearned from that that there
(34:41):
were some things that we saidthat it did put some people as
if we were putting them into abox right.
That came up when we weretalking about police officers
and we have police officers inour congregation, and so we
heard that.
We actually heard that, wereceived that and we got some
(35:03):
flack for that.
I think we were able to saywhat we said was still true, but
nevertheless we heard what theysaid.
The next time we preached it wemaneuvered, not in the sense of
we went away from it, but we Idon't know we said it better,
we're more careful.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, and so that's even what I'm thinking about
with that dialogical approachthat my father-in-law and I
actually had to have dialoguebefore we ever preached this and
, of course, got up there to doit.
Then we got feedback and we'reable to make it even better and
get the truth out and get thelove out with that.
(35:39):
So, no, it was a really greattime, but I do remember the
negative feedback and learningfrom it, and so that's part of
what I want to say is, I thinksometimes we get fearful of
talking about these thingsbecause of what the backlash
might be, especially dependingon where you side on this.
If you do actually do thebiblical like let's just be
honest you might do the biblicalstudy, you might go through all
(36:02):
the rules that you've set up tostudy scripture well, and it
will result in against themajority result in against the
majority, right, it actuallygoes against what your
congregation lands at.
So then you have to think aboutam I going to preach the truth
or am I going to cave to it?
(36:22):
Right, and am I going to be aprophet in this moment, or am I
just going to be, honestly, justa false prophet?
Right, and so that's a reallydifficult moment to put yourself
in, but I would say we're goingto go, of course with being the
prophet, telling the truth.
This is what the text says, outof love and allowing for
dialogue to build from that, andso I know this goes against our
(36:47):
regular preaching styles.
I was taught how to preach fromamazing communicators.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Like Mark Scott.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Being one of them, right, but I think we have to
push against this.
And this is kind of going backto the Mosaic Lunch, brad,
something that you all did youand Morgan was you asked
questions and heard people'sthoughts and then were able to
give some more information tohelp with a better framing of
how to approach the topic.
And I think, when it comes tothese topics, maybe we just need
(37:22):
to say let's approach this alittle bit differently, knowing
that it's a little bit moretouchy because of just our
culture, because it is so much atie to identity and sometimes
some people put this part oftheir identity bigger than their
identity in Christ and,regardless of that, they
shouldn't do that.
(37:42):
They're doing it, and so wehave to just come into a
thinking.
This is going to be a littlebit different, but I think if we
allow for dialogue, we can bemore clear, so we get the truth
out and we can be receivedbetter.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
So there's a lot there.
No, I love it.
So this is a lot to chew on,but I do have one more youth
pastor that I want to talk about.
Cool Youth pastor, archetype um, which is.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
What is this person's name?
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, Um, Michael Hester Just kidding Um so
hypothetical, hypothetically,the youth pastor at first
Christian church no yes, yes,yeah.
Yeah, um no, but there are.
There are youth pastors outthere who are like none of that
stuff has anything to do withthe gospel.
(38:38):
Like I can preach that we haveall sinned and fallen short of
the glory of God, that Jesuscame, lived a perfect life, died
a sinner's death for my sake,rose again to newness of life
and ascended into heaven so thatI could be with the Father
forever, without ever talkingabout any of that stuff.
So why would I wade into thesewaters?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, Honestly, I like the question and part of me
just wanted to be like yeah.
But the caveat is, yeah, if youpreach about the gospel in its
fullness, you should touch onthese things.
That gospel doesn't just dealwith the spiritual, it deals
(39:20):
with the physical as well, andso part of it is to say amen to
that.
But it's your definition of thegospel, right.
Is the gospel simply just abouteternal life after you die, or
is it about eternal life rightnow?
Right, and that starts withknowing Jesus right now and
experiencing that abundance.
And so I would push backagainst that thinking of saying
(39:43):
maybe we have limited the gospelin saying it's only about
afterlife, it's only about aspiritual connection.
I think God made us embodied onpurpose and therefore we are put
into a context, that we are putinto bodies that have certain
(40:04):
skin tones.
And yes, is racism something ofthe world?
Most definitely, but now wedeal with it because we're of
this or we are in this world,and so therefore, the gospel
talks about those things.
And how do I know the gospeltalks about those things?
Is because it literally showsup all throughout the Old
Testament and New Testament.
And so if Paul had that same,you know disposition, then all
(40:25):
we really need is 1 Corinthians15, you know, that's all we need
.
This is what I attested to you.
Jesus died, he was buried.
He raised again.
Peter saw him, other disciplessaw him, then a hundred people
saw him.
He ascended.
We have the spirit.
You know.
1 Corinthians 15 would cover allof that, right.
(40:46):
All we would need is, you know,a 2 Timothy I think it's
chapter 2 or something like thisand he just says remember what
I preached to you.
Jesus, son of David, died,resurrected the Messiah.
This is my gospel, right?
(41:08):
He has to actually talk aboutand open up Romans 1 of talking
about sexuality and idol worship.
He actually has to talk aboutGentile and Jewish conflict.
He does have to talk aboutmasters and slaves.
He does have to talk about whatcan men and women do and what's
their relationship post-Jesus'resurrection.
(41:30):
And so I mean same thing withJesus that he meets people where
they're at and he finds ways totell the gospel and how the
gospel actually is going to beportrayed in that particular
moment in that person's life.
So there's kind of a lot there.
I would say one we need toactually believe the gospel
touches every part of life.
The gospel touches every partof life, every part of life.
(41:56):
I had a pastor told me, whatdid sin do in Genesis 3?
It impacted everything.
Everything is impacted becauseof sin, and we all know that.
So what does the gospel do?
It impacts every single part oflife.
So often we are limiting thegospel.
Secondly, if we truly love ourneighbors, we are meeting them
where they're at.
Is this issue as big of a dealas they're making out to be?
(42:18):
Sometimes it shouldn't be, butit's a big deal to them.
I love them.
Therefore, it's a big deal tome, right?
And so I want to be able topreach the truth and the love of
the gospel in that moment, sothat Jesus is revealed being
more powerful than any of thosedarknesses in that moment and in
that space.
So that would be my two-partanswer.
We need to actually believe thegospel is big and not just a go
(42:43):
to heaven type of thing.
And then, two, it meets uswhere we're at and deals with
these particular things.
And we see that we again.
We just see the Bible doingthis all over the place.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
All the time.
Yeah, yeah, I was.
The image that popped into mymind is like the woman at the
well, jesus, just literally likefinds this woman where she is
in her shame, walks up to herand has a conversation with her
about the thing that she doesn'twant to have a conversation
about, yes, and walks away,knowing him better.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Isn't't it?
And he doesn't just start bysaying I'm the messiah, right,
because that's that's what do agood thing, yeah, yeah, like
this is like that's the.
That is actually the resultthat she discovers he's the
messiah, but that's not how hebegins it.
Give me some water, yeah, ill,maybe you know well, why are you
asking me this.
And she brings up very bigcultural things.
(43:34):
I'm a Samaritan and I'm a womanyeah exactly, you have no
business talking to me.
And Jesus wades into that withher and, of course, the result
is she's redeemed, she knowsthat he's the Messiah.
That village comes out to meethim and greet him and welcome
him in speaking of hospitalityonce again.
So no, that's a great exampleof Samaritan woman at the well,
(43:56):
that's good.
I had another one that comes tomind.
Oh, I thought of Galatians withPaul and Peter, this conflict
that they have.
Peter gets, or Paul has toconfront Peter on table
fellowship with very much aboutethnicity, peter on table
(44:16):
fellowship with very much aboutethnicity.
Peter, you seem to go contraryto the gospel because when your
Jewish brothers came in, youleft hanging out with the
Gentiles, right.
So he seems to be saying youknow what the gospel is, but how
you're acting right now,physically, when it comes to
this ethnic cultural issue, itseems to be saying you don't
know what the gospel is, and soPaul has to bring that up, and
of course it pertains be sayingyou don't know what the gospel
is and so Paul has to bring thatup, and of course it pertains
to what he's going at in thatletter.
(44:37):
Yeah, wow, okay.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Taking up a lot of your time.
Matthew, I want to ask you onemore question, which is I hate
this question, so I'm sorry forasking it, but also I feel so
ignorant about this a little bitin some ways.
But is there anything I'm notasking that I should be asking?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Is there anything you came in here like?
Oh yeah, this would be awesometo be able to talk about this,
and I'm just too dumb to ask theright questions.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
No, no, I mean to be honest, no.
Well, that makes me feel I feellike you asked the right
questions and I feel like I gotthings I, at least you know was
most pressing on my heart, mymind, to share.
um, I just think this, um, sothis is a podcast, making a
reference to another podcastmoment, so we were talking
before about every ThoughtCaptive with some colleagues and
(45:33):
friends of ours, what Iappreciate about that podcast
and shout out to it, beginningagain.
Maybe I don't know if it'sgoing to, but it should right.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, this is our endorsement.
We're calling out yeah, yeahyeah, do something, do you know
who wrote the music for thatpodcast?
I don't Michael Hester.
Oh my, I don't Michael Hester.
Oh my, I don't know if they'restill using it.
Yeah, they are, are they?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Wow, full circle, full circle, love it.
I didn't know that.
Something that I appreciateabout them is being
intellectually rigorous andhonest, right, and so we've
already gotten at this before.
But if I can just double downon it, because here's what I'm
(46:24):
thinking, I think because I'mhuman and there are humans
listening to this, I'm justassuming that some people
listening to this do the samething that I do, and that is
immediately go to my informationand my sources on why I'm right
.
Confirmation bias, exactly.
Yeah, my wife has challenged meon this a lot and hopefully
(46:47):
I've grown a little bit in theyears that we've been married.
I love to be right, we all doLove to be right, and sometimes
I care more about being rightthan being righteous.
Sometimes I care more aboutwinning an argument than
actually even proclaiming thegospel, and so when it comes to
(47:10):
these conversations, I just wantpeople to be honest,
intellectually honest.
Am I just going forconfirmation bias?
Do I just want to win?
Do I just want ammo?
And those might be.
Sometimes it can be disguised.
I tell people all the time prideis a very devious thing.
It can trick you into thinkingyou're doing something for the
right reasons, but it's all forpride's sake, trick you into
(47:32):
thinking you're doing somethingfor the right reasons, but it's
all for pride's sake, and so youjust need to be honest.
Do I just want to be right ordo I actually want righteousness
to win out here?
And so, like I said, to thosesteps earlier in the sense of
hearing from others, interactingwith others, truly loving on
others.
Those might seem like smallthings and we hear all the time
yes, have relationships withpeople that think differently
(47:52):
than you, but there's a reasonwhy we have to keep saying it,
snl.
Last thing I'll say Brad SNLweird thing had during the 2016
election.
I believe it was announced thatPresident Trump was going to be
president, and then this episodecame out, and the episode had a
skit called the Bubble, and theBubble was supposed to be the
(48:16):
super inclusive place whereeveryone, whose different
thoughts, can come to the Bubble.
I think the Bubble was inBrooklyn actually, and so it
just kind of walked through whatpeople did in the Bubble, and
so it just kind of walkedthrough what people did in the
bubble, and what SNL ultimatelysatirically pointed out is that
we act like we're inclusive andwe're really not.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Because the people that we keep close to us are
people who agree with us.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Exactly.
It's just the echo chambergoing at it and they're like
have this engaging, enlighteningconversation with people who
have different views than yourown, and the back and forth is
disagreement the entire time.
Yes yes, yes, exactly yes forsure, and that's what we end up
(49:06):
doing.
So I just want to say I don'twant us just to shove this off
and act like, oh yes, okay, Ineed to have more friends.
That's not.
It's not just the idea of it.
Do you actually believe thatwe're called to rub shoulders
with people and therefore thatwill change how we approach this
?
And so that would be my lastthing.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
I love it.
I think that's a great note toend on.
I really appreciate you beinghere to challenge me and
challenge our listeners in thisway, and I think you've
definitely given us a lot tothink about.
So thank you Glad to be on here, brad.
Thank you, brother, I'm reallythankful for almost Dr McAberth
(49:50):
there for kind of holding ourhand and walking us, walking us
down a road of what it lookslike to engage with some issues
that we, frankly, probably allwish we didn't have to engage
with as often as we probably do.
Um, but we do, and and I'mgrateful for people like Matthew
who are willing to kind of wadeinto those waters and to show
(50:12):
us how to wade in those watersuh, in a way that that that
honors our calling, in a waythat is full of both grace and
truth, things that we often see,um, as we kind of talked about,
as ends of a spectrum, butreally they're not.
They're not.
Jesus was all grace, jesus wasall truth and, as hard as it is,
(50:37):
we got to figure out how tolive that out.
So I'm going to read ourblessing over us today.
May God show you grace andbless you.
May he make his face shine onyou.
May you experience the love ofChrist, through whom God gives
you fullness of life.
May you be strengthened by hispower.
May Christ himself make us homein your heart, that you would
(51:00):
be full of his love and graceand that those you serve would
see Jesus in you.
Today's episode was produced byMichael Hester, lauren Bryan and
me.
Thanks so much to matthewmcbirth for being here with us
today, and thank you for tuningin and listening if you liked
(51:20):
what you heard.
Don't forget to subscribewherever you listen to podcasts,
and be sure to to catch up withus in two weeks, when we will
be back with another brand newepisode.
In the meantime, you can feelSee you next time, Thank you.
Hello, this is Brad Warren and you are listening to
Beyond the Event, a youthministry podcast presented by
Christ in Youth, where we helpyou maintain momentum between
the mountaintops.
I've got a really, reallyinteresting conversation lined
up for you today.
It's one that is challenging,it's one that we get asked to
talk about quite a bit, and ithas to do with how we navigate
(00:26):
different hot button orchallenging issues in youth
ministry.
The bottom line is, no matterhow you feel about LGBTQ issues,
there are people that you servewho are affirming of people who
are part of that community andthere are people in your
(00:47):
community who are not affirmingof people who are part of that
community.
And no matter how you feelabout abortion, there are people
you serve who are pro-choiceand there are people you serve
who are pro-life.
And no matter how you feelabout race relations, there are
people you serve who think thatwe are in a good place with race
(01:08):
relations in this country andthere are people you serve who
think we are in a bad place withrace relations in this country
and those issues have becomekind of identity markers for
people and that's unfortunate.
But we need to have aconversation about what it looks
like to navigate some of thoseissues in a way that is truthful
(01:31):
, in a way that is full of truth, but also in a way that is full
of grace, and so we're going totalk to Matthew McBirth about
that.
He is super duper qualified tospeak into these issues.
He lives in Joplin, here withus.
He's the director ofmulticultural affairs at Ozark
Christian College and he alsoserves as a professor of Bible
(01:54):
and ministry there.
He's working on his PhD in NewTestament.
I only tell you that so thatyou know that he's smarter than
me, but Matthew is a reallythoughtful, well-studied man who
will have a lot of great thingsto say about an issue that is
really, really challenging for alot of people.
(02:15):
And that's how do we talk aboutthings that are controversial
in a way that honors Jesus.
So let's head over to myconversation with Matthew.
Matthew McBirth almost DrMatthew McBirth- Thank you for
(02:37):
being here.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Glad to be here.
Thanks, Brad.
One year left, hopefully, godwilling, one year left.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah, well, thank you in your very rigorous schedule,
I'm sure, for making time to behere with us today.
It's super cool.
A lot of people might not knowyou yet.
People who are familiar withthe Ozark Christian College
world may, listening to thispodcast, will know you after
this summer, which is excitingfor me because you're going to
(03:09):
be teaching at MOVE.
Oh no, you're not.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I'm not, I thought you were.
I told Lane no, actually forthis summer, so I don't know if
you want to start over Jokes on?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
No, I don't.
I want everybody to know whatthey're missing out on.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Joke's on me Because of that almost doctorate, oh
yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
So we see how this is throwing a wrench in
everybody's system.
Yes, yes, yes so maybe sometimein the future you'll get to
meet Matthew McBirth and you'lllook back on this conversation
fondly, yes, and remember all ofthe wonderful things that you
heard from him.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I was just talking to him and he was like not that
long ago.
When did you tell him no?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
it was like a month ago, I think Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, I must've been talking to him like five weeks
ago and he was so excited.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
He was like yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Matthew McBurth.
It's going to be so great Ifelt terrible.
Well yeah, don't feel bad, man.
You're told him you got a lotgoing on I'll.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Life is all about balance and I applaud you for
making that choice.
So you'll be working on able tobe this weird group of Jews and
Gentiles, and yet they see eachother as family.
It seems that hospitality wasthe language and practices that
they used to figure that out,and I'm trying to recapture that
for the church today.
(04:47):
So how can we practicehospitality corporately within
our churches, within our localcommunities, and truly be a
people that's unified even inthe midst of diversity?
So, yeah, that's been a lot offun studying that over the last
few years.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah.
Excited to be able to make thatpaper well, I my simple mind
you can correct me if I'm wrongsee a very logical connection
between, uh, what you'redescribing and kind of what
we're talking about today, whichis hard things to talk about.
Yeah, definitely.
So there, I mean, pick yourpoison right there are a billion
hot button issues out there,and I say that and one popped
(05:31):
into everybody who is listeningto this mind, and I don't know
what that one is, but it mightbe abortion, it could be how we
relate to the LGBT community, itcould be race relations, it
could be a trillion things Right, but there are all of these
kind of like identity politicsissues where you know, in our
circles maybe pro-life good,pro-choice bad, and you are
(05:57):
defined by the way that you kindof answer that question.
So I want to talk to you abouthow we address, not about the
issues themselves Everybodywho's listening probably has
their theology nailed down ofany given issue but more, how do
we pastor people who might notor who might disagree with us?
(06:19):
So the reason that I wanted totalk to you about this is
because Ozark Christian College,where you work, does a really
cool thing that I got tointeract with a little bit
called Mosaic.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Lunches.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And I want you to just kind of cast the vision for
what Mosaic Lunches are.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Definitely yeah.
So this is something that westarted when I got hired on
there, so 2016 would have beenthe first semester that we
started doing these thingscalled Mosaic Lunches.
So the idea is this Most often,whenever we're having these
conversations about thesepolitical topics or cultural
topics like race or sexuality,identity, it is usually not a
(06:57):
conversation.
It is usually social media,which is not a good place for
conversation, or it's someonebeing taught at, being lectured
to on where they stand.
And we said how about weactually sit down at tables and
talk about these hot topics andactually believe that we can
(07:23):
remain unified in Christ andhear differences between one
another?
And so that was the idea.
And so, starting off in 2016,talking about things, if you
remember, at that time, blackLives Matter was on its way up
and that ended up being one ofthe first conversations that we
ended up having is what is BlackLives Matter?
What is this rhetoric of alllives matter and just saying
(07:44):
let's try to understand bothsides and can we be charitable
and can we be also critical andbe able to hear each other out
really believing that we canstay unified in Jesus?
And so we see that happening inthe New Testament church and so
we wanted to try to do thatwith 18 to 22 year olds and been
doing it ever since and it'sbeen going up pretty well.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, that's awesome.
You used a word that I want tohave you hone in on a little bit
, which is the word charitable.
I think there's a thing thatpops into people's head when
they hear that word.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
What do you mean when you say?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
like.
Can we be charitable to eachother?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah for sure.
So when I say charitable, Imean trying to find reasons to
give a positive comment on theother side.
So, instead of immediatelythinking everything this person
believes about this topic iswrong, we go into it with the
assumption that actually it'sprobably going to be a mixed bag
(08:39):
.
A mixed bag they probably havesome things that are wrong
because we're humans, but theyalso probably have some things
that are biblical and found inthe scripture or the person of
Jesus, and so we want toactually seek that out.
I was listening to a sermonrecently and the guy said
(08:59):
Christians are weird peoplebecause we truly believe
everyone's made in the image ofGod and we can state that,
though we hear that all the time.
But he said you actually have tobelieve it and then see it.
And that is very counter to ourworld, especially with these
identity politics that we wantto be able to put people into
(09:20):
boxes and label it and thereforewe don't have to deal with it
anymore of boxes and label itand therefore we don't have to
deal with it anymore.
And so when I say charitable, Imean I want to look for
something that I can say, yeah,that sounds like image of
God-beariness, that soundsbiblical to me, that sounds like
love or justice or whatever itmight be.
And then, keeping that criticalpiece in mind too, that doesn't
(09:41):
mean that everything's goodabout it either, and so what
normally happens is one groupmight be doing this, but the
other group is not doing it aswell, and so if no one's going
to do it for me, then I put up awall and I'm not going to do it
for them either.
So, it creates just these wallsand it creates just lectures.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It's almost like you have to come to the table
together Exactly In order for itto bear any fruit.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
And that's what I love about the Mosaic Lunch is
it is round tables.
Again, we're working withstudents, and so they've been in
class all morning.
They have been in the sit infront of the sometimes the stage
, on the stage model wherethey've just been, you know,
lectured to on things that arereally important for them to
(10:29):
know that they don't have a lotof information on.
But to be in class for hoursand then go to another lecture
is not going to work, and so wesaid we are going to do it in a
space that has round tables andactually have conversation with
people who are on quote unquotethe stage, but also with people
at the table, and so it ends upbeing helpful.
(10:50):
And over the years, I have seenhow some have come in with a
view.
They sat down at a table withsomeone with the opposite view
and they walked out saying Inever saw it that way before.
I now understand why someonecould be on that side.
The issue was on immigrationand this guy came in and the
(11:15):
student that was also there is asecond generation immigrant,
and so for him to be able tohear his story, to see where
he's coming from, from, doesn'tmean that he's in complete
agreement, even.
But it made more sense of whysomeone might be on that side,
would you say?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
that it.
Is it possible for somebody toengage the way that you're
talking about and not changetheir mind at all?
Like, is it just a dispositionthing, or is it?
Do you think it kind of has tobe accompanied by this
intellectual exercise where youare willing to kind of not be a
(11:50):
slave to your beliefs in somesense?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, I think the person has to come into it with.
I want to know what truth is.
Yeah okay and therefore saying Idon't have all the right
answers.
So there has to be somehumility in the room.
If you come into a saying I'mjust here to fight and be right
about this, and yeah, I'll heartheir side, but just so I can
(12:15):
use it as ammo, right To oh,I've heard that reason.
Now I can think of a counter tothat, so I'm ready for the next
fight.
That's a totally differentcategory.
That's a totally differentcategory.
That's a totally differentarena that we're talking about
with the round tables, and Imean the one that we just talked
about.
That's a boxing arena, right,and there's times for that, for
(12:39):
things like that, with debates,right, but that should not be
our usual.
That should not be our normalat all.
But this is the reason whydebates don't change people's
minds, right?
Hopefully it's okay for me tosay this.
I mean, we're about to come upon maybe a series of debates
when it comes to who's going tobe the next president of the
(13:00):
United States at this time, andhas anyone ever walked into
listening to a debate againstcandidates and walked out being
like, oh, I've changed my mindand I'm going to be for that
person?
Usually not they come in with.
This is where I'm at and that'sbecause what debates do it just
furthers where you stand at.
(13:20):
So I think to your point, brad,humility has to be key.
With it, you come into itsaying I am willing to hear
where I might be wrong and togive in on that, but also be
willing to say and this issometimes even a harder thing be
(13:42):
willing to say brother orsister in Christ.
This is where I see, maybewhere you're wrong.
Right, the hardest part ismaking sure what is the standard
that we are comparing thesethings with.
And often the standard is mythinking, it's my
presuppositions, it's my culture.
Instead of it, jesus andscripture so, yeah, yeah, so you
(14:07):
.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
The words charity and critique, critique kind of
opposite sides of the spectrum,remind me of two other words
grace and truth.
Exactly, um is that?
Is that applicable to thisconversation?
You being an academic?
Oh yeah, it feels like it is,but I want to make sure it is
(14:28):
before we continue to talk.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
It has to be in the sense of, yeah, and I would say,
even in the realms of talkingabout theology, jesus does not
allow us to be only about one ofthose things and certain
aspects of our lives, only aboutone of those things and certain
aspects of our lives, and thatincludes our thinking.
And so I have thought throughmy theology on certain things.
(14:55):
But I'm not just seeking thetruth, I'm also seeking it
through the lens of grace, right, and so I want to hold both of
those in mind.
Yeah, so totally going to beapparent, and you just notice
when someone goes away from oneof those where they end up
leading to.
A passage that comes to my mindis Revelation 3, I believe it is
(15:15):
maybe 2, where Jesus is talkingto the church in Ephesus, and
this seems to be a group ofChristians who know the truth,
and yet he says to them you arelacking something.
He doesn't use the word grace,but he uses the word this you
lack.
You've forgotten your firstlove.
And the consequence that hesays is, if you do not find this
(15:38):
first love is, I will remove mypresence from you.
So I think it's for both sides.
Those who lean a little bitmore towards the truth side need
to hear that, in the sense oflove and grace, is part of the
gospel and how Jesus approachesus.
For those who lean towards morethe grace side and lack of
truth, jesus has a word for themtoo.
He says if you war againsttruth, you end up warring
(16:02):
against the Holy Spirit, and sothe sword of the Spirit will
come.
So I definitely think both ofthose are there.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
But even as you're describing that, I'm seeing like
two sides of a spectrum andsomebody being like pulled
between the ends of a spectrum.
Like don't go too far that way.
Come back over here, Don't gotoo far that way Come back over
here, but that's not what it isLike.
Jesus came full of grace andfull of truth.
(16:29):
And, boy, that gives me anxiety.
I'm not going to lie to you,it's hard, yeah, oh, like, okay,
well, we're going to move onfrom that now.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, no, it's a difficult thing to do.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, it is, it really is.
So I want to talk about the meatof this conversation, I really
think is that there's apractical ministry side to all
of this.
There are youth pastors outthere who have kids in their
youth group who I mean a middleschool or high school student
has not fully fleshed out theirtheology on any issue, right,
fleshed out their theology onany issue, right.
But a lot of them come from profill in the blank families and
(17:11):
opposite of that issue, families, right?
You've got kids in your youthministry who come from pro-life
backgrounds, from pro-choicebackgrounds, from affirming
backgrounds, from non-affirmingbackgrounds, whatever it may be,
and you have got to haveconversations with all these
people.
You've got to stand up on astage and teach these people in
(17:32):
a way that is full of grace andtruth.
So that's what I kind of want totalk to you about is like, if
you're sitting in the seat of aminister and it's like these
issues sitting in the seat of aminister, yeah, and it's like
these issues, they're such loudvoices in our culture and it
might not even be what youreally want to talk about, yeah,
but they're there and I justdon't know.
(17:56):
I mean, I'm not.
I'm going to stop making sensebecause I just don't even know,
like how you're supposed to wadeinto those waters.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
You know what I mean?
Yeah, definitely.
Here's my thinking with it.
First, I want to say this youthpastors have to be one of the
best theologians.
You know if you're a youthpastor, like you have a hard
task.
You know you have to talk aboutbiblical truths with accuracy
(18:26):
to a generation that is youngerthan you so there's a
cross-cultural dynamic there andbe able to make sense to them.
So it is not at all an easything to do, and yet, if you're
a youth pastor, this is whatyou're doing on a regular basis.
So let me start with this.
I do really think it starts intwo areas or maybe it pertains
(18:50):
to two areas that we can saythis there is the area of hard
chair work, of doing theresearch, doing the study, and
then there's the area of lives.
You are interacting with peopleand I find and that might be,
maybe I don't even know thisidea of grace and truth.
(19:11):
Don't want to say that onlytruth is in the hard share and
the grace is in therelationships.
I think it's in both right.
But if we can just say I findthat if you are interacting with
people who have a different,opposing view than your own, if
you're interacting with them nota sense of debate, but just
(19:32):
rubbing shoulders with them,living life, you have them over
for dinner, you go to the sameballgames, whatever it might be,
that just changes how youapproach the conversation.
It doesn't mean it changes yourtheology.
That is a danger.
I think we should just admit.
That is a danger that we wadeinto when we do rub shoulders
(19:52):
with people, that we end uploving them and that our minds
could change because we lovethis person so much.
That's where the truth reallydoes still matter and you have
to be grounded in that.
But we need to actually love onpeople and if my friendships
are only people who agree withme, then it's going to be very
difficult to be able to say whatI believe, even if it's
(20:15):
truthful.
It's going to be hard to saythat with love it's gonna be
hard to say that with love.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
So because, like, yeah, the the other side,
anybody who falls into that camp, yeah, becomes defined by that
thing, whatever, it is rightexactly, and I say ultimately,
we play a game.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Um, we've been living in a world where, um you know,
the marvel cinematic universe ofpromises matters.
Mcu, you're speaking.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Producer michael's language.
Right now we live in a theMarvel Cinematic Universe of
Promises Matters, mcu.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
You're speaking producer Michael's language.
Right now, we live in a MCUimagination.
Everything is heroes andvillains.
Every Marvel movie has a clearvillain and has the clear hero.
Now, do sometimes those heroesmess up?
Sometimes you have somecompassion for the villain maybe
(21:06):
a little bit, but honestly,that's kind of.
In the more later movies it'skind of clear that I don't want
to be for a guy that takespeople's eyes out.
You know, like Loki in Avengers, I'm not for that.
You know when.
When you know Black Panther andEric Killmonger, oh okay, I can
(21:27):
kind of see how he got to wherehe got.
Regardless of, though, we havebeen set up to see the world as
who's the hero, who's thevillain.
That's fun with fiction.
That's not how life operates,and so what we end up doing is
opposing side.
They're the villains, and I'mon the hero side, and so I got
to do anything to be able to winand to protect the people I'm
(21:47):
over.
And when it comes to the gospel, it does operate in heroes and
villains, but it's on a waybigger scale, in the sense of
the one hero is actually not me,no, it's actually Jesus, yeah,
so thank God.
Yes, exactly yeah, he's the hero, and the villain is not the
religious leaders that he'sinteracting with.
(22:09):
The villains are not thedisciples who doubt.
The villains are actually, youknow, demons, death, satan.
It's darkness that you see himconstantly warring against.
And so I think, if we can juststop with this categorizing of
people with their ideas of youknow, if you oppose me, you're
(22:31):
therefore on the villain side,and we don't say it in Heroes
and Villains.
We say left and right.
Now there's one way of sayingthey are left-leaning or they
are very much on the left, andwe can be honest about that.
But when we say that, do we useit as a dismissal?
Yeah, they're on the left, so Idon't have to worry about their
(22:52):
thoughts, their thinking.
They're the villains.
I just have to win this battle.
So you're totally right in thesense of the opposing sides, and
we put a label on them, and Ithink it's because of these
heroes and villains that we'vegrown up with.
So we need to rub shoulderswith people and truly love them,
not just as a way to grow ingrace.
Study side we do our homeworkright.
(23:13):
We actually want to search thescriptures, we want to hear from
and even in doing our homeworkand studying these things, we
see what the opposing side issaying and once again, we're
(23:34):
trying to go into it.
This is a human being whothinks something for a reason I
want to figure out, instead ofmaking a straw man out of them.
So that would be my two bigthings.
I'll tell them is do the hardchair work, do the study, but
also, of course, engage withpeople at the table in your room
(23:58):
, in your living room, in thedining room, in your kitchen or
just in your neighborhood, andsee what happens through that
process, which youth ministersprobably have the opportunity to
do more than just about anybodyelse who works for a church.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yes, right, yes, because kids are bringing their
friends all the time.
You're going to football gamesall the time.
This, that and the other, likeyou can do this.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yes, going to football games all the time.
This, that and the other.
You can do this, and I thinkthere's some bit of this.
I think we come into itwondering what the other side
might think of me, right, well,once they hear I'm a Christian,
they're going to make someassumptions.
That's very true they might.
There's a pastor named BrianLoritz who I like a lot of his
(24:44):
works that he's done, greatpreacher, and he has a book
called Insider Outsider, andit's a different conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I've seen that movie.
No, I'm kidding, that's good.
The sequel's coming out.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yes, yes, yeah exactly Anxiety and, yes, all
these things are going to comeup and whatever her name is.
Anyway, he talks about how hisneighbors, um was, was, was a um
or is a lesbian couple, or atleast I guess was this whenever
he was living in California.
He's known he's no longer thereand um had a pretty good
relationship.
(25:18):
Um with his neighbors went overfor dinner and then they
announced that they were goingto get married.
So he's a pastor and theyannounced this at the dinner
table we're getting married.
Now you know.
His mind immediately goes toare they going to ask me to?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
be the official.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
And so he gets nervous, they tell his whole
demeanor changes in that momentand probably about five minutes
into after saying that, one ofthe ladies just says Brian,
what's wrong?
And he starts I'm happy thatyou all are happy about this,
(26:03):
but you all know I'm a pastorand this is where I'm at, where
my church is at and where Ithink scripture lies.
And they just said, Brian, wewere never going to ask you to
do officiating and we were nevergoing to put you in that
position.
We know where you're at on this.
We love you though, Right.
(26:23):
So I do think there's this likeagain.
I think we go into it thinkingthey're going to immediately
think I'm the villain, Right,and they might.
But I think we've got tocounter that.
We've got to say, if it doesn'toperate in heroes and villains,
like, we just need to startacting like I'm not the villain
in this story, right, andthey're not the villain in the
story.
I'm also not the hero in thestory and they're not the hero
(26:44):
in the story.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
So, yeah, so a lot of what you're talking about is
really relational and I lovethat, like I love the idea of
being in relationship withpeople who hold opposing
viewpoints up to you.
I think it's important in everyaspect of life um.
There's one area where I'mstruggling to see how this
(27:05):
relates, and that's when a youthpastor has to get up on a stage
and teach about somethingbecause you kind of lose the
relational component when youwalk out on a stage.
You know what I mean.
Now I don't think there are alot of youth ministries out
there who are doing series onrace relations or whatever, you
(27:29):
know what I mean.
It would be a five-part series,but also, if you're being true
to scripture, you are going tocross areas that talk about life
and what that means, and totalk about sexuality and
whatever.
So how do you take all of thisstuff and apply it to like
teaching?
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
So a few thoughts on it.
Let me give the one that's mostimportant and if I forget it,
the other one, it's fine,because it's lesser important.
It was of less importance.
If I forget the other one, it'sfine because it's of less
importance.
When it comes to the study, Ioften get up and give a sermon
or a lesson on stuff like this.
The way you know that you'reprepared is not just that you've
(28:12):
done the exegetical work andyou found this is what the text
seems to be saying, but you havedone so much work in looking at
the text through the other lensthat the opposing side is
thinking and you're just tryingto see how they could have got
where they got right.
So you look at the text withthat different interpretation
(28:34):
and be able to say, oh, when Icome into it with this
presupposition, I can see howthis text seems to be saying
that now, right Doesn't meanit's right, right, so I can see
that and that will prepare youto be able to talk about it
better.
Right, which means you arestudying.
This is where it gets difficult.
This means you do listen to thevoices that do take the
(28:56):
opposing side.
You do hear where they are at Apastor within the Christian
church movement, calebKaltenbach, pastor out in
California at Shepherd.
I believe, written a book calledMessy Grace.
He is good friends, I haveheard While he was in the same
(29:18):
building a fellow faculty membersaid this and he didn't deny it
.
Okay, so there we go.
He is at least in contact within a text messaging relationship
with Matthew Vines.
And Matthew Vines is totally ofthe affirming side when it
comes to sexuality that theBible is affirming.
When it comes to marriage oflesbians and gay marriages, he
(29:44):
has that relationship with him.
He studies what Matthew Vinesdoes, right, so he can actually
see this is where he comes from.
Now it doesn't mean you need togo and get a relationship with
Matthew Vines.
Okay, good luck with that ifyou don't interact with him.
But are you studying howMatthew Vines gets where he gets
?
Gets that way when you get upon the stage, you've done your
(30:05):
homework and you saw it fromthat perspective.
I think it changes how youtherefore talk about it.
So that's the first thing ofimportance.
Second thing of importance, andthat's of lesser importance do
you lose the relationship in thesense of it's no longer a
dialogue?
You certainly do.
If you're preaching it fromstage, maybe that's kind of a
(30:29):
bad thing with how we preach.
It doesn't mean it can't be adialogue, right Actually, with
the person preaching and thenallowing for audience
participation.
Especially on topics like this,it might be a good idea to do
that very thing.
Questions, pushbacks, thoughtson this.
I want to study the text withyou.
All right, that actually allowsfor people's walls to go down,
(30:54):
right?
Oh, the preacher's actuallywanting to hear how I'm going to
respond to what he or she justsaid.
Okay, this changes it.
Secondly, if you actually havebeen doing that hard work of
relationship building, you don'tlose the relational capital,
(31:16):
right, you bring that up therewith you.
I have talked to the studentsin the room who actually side
with that side, and the samething with the relationship that
Brian Lewis talks about.
They already know where I'm at,they know my heart, so that
relational capital doesn't goaway.
So you've built that and soyou're taking that up there with
(31:37):
you.
I'll say this last thing andthen I'll show up for a little
bit here.
I find this with trainingstudents to study the Bible and
I've just seen this in my yearsof following Christ we do a good
job of teaching people to studythe Bible by themselves.
We do not do a good job ofteaching people how to study the
(31:58):
Bible communally, and so themoment that it finally becomes
community is when we teach orpreach.
But no, it should be the entireprocess that I'm studying this
with people and we kind of do itcommunally when we're reading
commentaries or looking upvideos.
But we should be saying, if I'mgoing to preach on something
(32:21):
for my local church and we'redoing it with history and in the
community, I better be talkingwith people in the community or
in my location about this verything to hear their thoughts on
it.
So it's the same thing with anyof these topics Study the text
in community.
I think you're going to be ableto bring that out more when it
comes to your lessons.
Yeah, in community.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I think you're going to be able to bring that out
more when it comes to yourlessons.
Yeah, it's funny because youwere talking about how we don't
really have to lose thatrelational aspect in a sermon.
It's harder work to make asermon a conversation, but one
of the most profound memoriesthat I have of something like
(33:01):
this is, after the killing ofGeorge Floyd, you and your
father-in-law, mark Scott,getting on stage at College
Heights and having aconversation Like hey, well, the
people who are listening tothis can't see you, you are
black and your father-in-law iswhite.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
And for you guys to be able to stand on stage and
say, hey, this is wherescripture actually, you know, is
in all of this, I think waslike a really big deal.
What do you remember about thatexperience?
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah, it's kind of it's.
It's fascinating.
First of all, yeah, that was myfirst time preaching with my
father-in-law.
I guess it was actually my onlytime.
But we did preach that sermonthree times, twice at college
heights and then once foranother church that heard it, so
we did it there, so I guessfour times.
We had two services, and so itwas a very enjoyable time.
First time ever co-preaching,which, if anyone's ever preached
(33:58):
before preaching by itself,it's hard enough.
Having to preach with someoneelse is even more difficult.
But my father-in-law is anamazing preacher, so it did not
feel that way at all, though itdid not feel that way at all.
(34:19):
So what I remember from thatwas 90% of it was well-received,
in the sense of 90% of thecongregation, I think, received
it well, being able to hear someof my stories, my feedback or
stories that I heard from otherpeople in the congregation,
being able to bring that into it.
There was actually somenegative stuff from it and I
think I don't know.
I say this in the sense of welearned from that that there
(34:41):
were some things that we saidthat it did put some people as
if we were putting them into abox right.
That came up when we weretalking about police officers
and we have police officers inour congregation, and so we
heard that.
We actually heard that, wereceived that and we got some
(35:03):
flack for that.
I think we were able to saywhat we said was still true, but
nevertheless we heard what theysaid.
The next time we preached it wemaneuvered, not in the sense of
we went away from it, but we Idon't know we said it better,
we're more careful.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, and so that's even what I'm thinking about
with that dialogical approachthat my father-in-law and I
actually had to have dialoguebefore we ever preached this and
, of course, got up there to doit.
Then we got feedback and we'reable to make it even better and
get the truth out and get thelove out with that.
(35:39):
So, no, it was a really greattime, but I do remember the
negative feedback and learningfrom it, and so that's part of
what I want to say is, I thinksometimes we get fearful of
talking about these thingsbecause of what the backlash
might be, especially dependingon where you side on this.
If you do actually do thebiblical like let's just be
honest you might do the biblicalstudy, you might go through all
(36:02):
the rules that you've set up tostudy scripture well, and it
will result in against themajority result in against the
majority, right, it actuallygoes against what your
congregation lands at.
So then you have to think aboutam I going to preach the truth
or am I going to cave to it?
(36:22):
Right, and am I going to be aprophet in this moment, or am I
just going to be, honestly, justa false prophet?
Right, and so that's a reallydifficult moment to put yourself
in, but I would say we're goingto go, of course with being the
prophet, telling the truth.
This is what the text says, outof love and allowing for
dialogue to build from that, andso I know this goes against our
(36:47):
regular preaching styles.
I was taught how to preach fromamazing communicators.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Like Mark Scott.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Being one of them, right, but I think we have to
push against this.
And this is kind of going backto the Mosaic Lunch, brad,
something that you all did youand Morgan was you asked
questions and heard people'sthoughts and then were able to
give some more information tohelp with a better framing of
how to approach the topic.
And I think, when it comes tothese topics, maybe we just need
(37:22):
to say let's approach this alittle bit differently, knowing
that it's a little bit moretouchy because of just our
culture, because it is so much atie to identity and sometimes
some people put this part oftheir identity bigger than their
identity in Christ and,regardless of that, they
shouldn't do that.
(37:42):
They're doing it, and so wehave to just come into a
thinking.
This is going to be a littlebit different, but I think if we
allow for dialogue, we can bemore clear, so we get the truth
out and we can be receivedbetter.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
So there's a lot there.
No, I love it.
So this is a lot to chew on,but I do have one more youth
pastor that I want to talk about.
Cool Youth pastor, archetype um, which is.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
What is this person's name?
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, Um, Michael Hester Just kidding Um so
hypothetical, hypothetically,the youth pastor at first
Christian church no yes, yes,yeah.
Yeah, um no, but there are.
There are youth pastors outthere who are like none of that
stuff has anything to do withthe gospel.
(38:38):
Like I can preach that we haveall sinned and fallen short of
the glory of God, that Jesuscame, lived a perfect life, died
a sinner's death for my sake,rose again to newness of life
and ascended into heaven so thatI could be with the Father
forever, without ever talkingabout any of that stuff.
So why would I wade into thesewaters?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, Honestly, I like the question and part of me
just wanted to be like yeah.
But the caveat is, yeah, if youpreach about the gospel in its
fullness, you should touch onthese things.
That gospel doesn't just dealwith the spiritual, it deals
(39:20):
with the physical as well, andso part of it is to say amen to
that.
But it's your definition of thegospel, right.
Is the gospel simply just abouteternal life after you die, or
is it about eternal life rightnow?
Right, and that starts withknowing Jesus right now and
experiencing that abundance.
And so I would push backagainst that thinking of saying
(39:43):
maybe we have limited the gospelin saying it's only about
afterlife, it's only about aspiritual connection.
I think God made us embodied onpurpose and therefore we are put
into a context, that we are putinto bodies that have certain
(40:04):
skin tones.
And yes, is racism something ofthe world?
Most definitely, but now wedeal with it because we're of
this or we are in this world,and so therefore, the gospel
talks about those things.
And how do I know the gospeltalks about those things?
Is because it literally showsup all throughout the Old
Testament and New Testament.
And so if Paul had that same,you know disposition, then all
(40:25):
we really need is 1 Corinthians15, you know, that's all we need
.
This is what I attested to you.
Jesus died, he was buried.
He raised again.
Peter saw him, other disciplessaw him, then a hundred people
saw him.
He ascended.
We have the spirit.
You know.
1 Corinthians 15 would cover allof that, right.
(40:46):
All we would need is, you know,a 2 Timothy I think it's
chapter 2 or something like thisand he just says remember what
I preached to you.
Jesus, son of David, died,resurrected the Messiah.
This is my gospel, right?
(41:08):
He has to actually talk aboutand open up Romans 1 of talking
about sexuality and idol worship.
He actually has to talk aboutGentile and Jewish conflict.
He does have to talk aboutmasters and slaves.
He does have to talk about whatcan men and women do and what's
their relationship post-Jesus'resurrection.
(41:30):
And so I mean same thing withJesus that he meets people where
they're at and he finds ways totell the gospel and how the
gospel actually is going to beportrayed in that particular
moment in that person's life.
So there's kind of a lot there.
I would say one we need toactually believe the gospel
touches every part of life.
The gospel touches every partof life, every part of life.
(41:56):
I had a pastor told me, whatdid sin do in Genesis 3?
It impacted everything.
Everything is impacted becauseof sin, and we all know that.
So what does the gospel do?
It impacts every single part oflife.
So often we are limiting thegospel.
Secondly, if we truly love ourneighbors, we are meeting them
where they're at.
Is this issue as big of a dealas they're making out to be?
(42:18):
Sometimes it shouldn't be, butit's a big deal to them.
I love them.
Therefore, it's a big deal tome, right?
And so I want to be able topreach the truth and the love of
the gospel in that moment, sothat Jesus is revealed being
more powerful than any of thosedarknesses in that moment and in
that space.
So that would be my two-partanswer.
We need to actually believe thegospel is big and not just a go
(42:43):
to heaven type of thing.
And then, two, it meets uswhere we're at and deals with
these particular things.
And we see that we again.
We just see the Bible doingthis all over the place.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
All the time.
Yeah, yeah, I was.
The image that popped into mymind is like the woman at the
well, jesus, just literally likefinds this woman where she is
in her shame, walks up to herand has a conversation with her
about the thing that she doesn'twant to have a conversation
about, yes, and walks away,knowing him better.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Isn't't it?
And he doesn't just start bysaying I'm the messiah, right,
because that's that's what do agood thing, yeah, yeah, like
this is like that's the.
That is actually the resultthat she discovers he's the
messiah, but that's not how hebegins it.
Give me some water, yeah, ill,maybe you know well, why are you
asking me this.
And she brings up very bigcultural things.
(43:34):
I'm a Samaritan and I'm a womanyeah exactly, you have no
business talking to me.
And Jesus wades into that withher and, of course, the result
is she's redeemed, she knowsthat he's the Messiah.
That village comes out to meethim and greet him and welcome
him in speaking of hospitalityonce again.
So no, that's a great exampleof Samaritan woman at the well,
(43:56):
that's good.
I had another one that comes tomind.
Oh, I thought of Galatians withPaul and Peter, this conflict
that they have.
Peter gets, or Paul has toconfront Peter on table
fellowship with very much aboutethnicity, peter on table
(44:16):
fellowship with very much aboutethnicity.
Peter, you seem to go contraryto the gospel because when your
Jewish brothers came in, youleft hanging out with the
Gentiles, right.
So he seems to be saying youknow what the gospel is, but how
you're acting right now,physically, when it comes to
this ethnic cultural issue, itseems to be saying you don't
know what the gospel is, and soPaul has to bring that up, and
of course it pertains be sayingyou don't know what the gospel
is and so Paul has to bring thatup, and of course it pertains
to what he's going at in thatletter.
(44:37):
Yeah, wow, okay.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Taking up a lot of your time.
Matthew, I want to ask you onemore question, which is I hate
this question, so I'm sorry forasking it, but also I feel so
ignorant about this a little bitin some ways.
But is there anything I'm notasking that I should be asking?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Is there anything you came in here like?
Oh yeah, this would be awesometo be able to talk about this,
and I'm just too dumb to ask theright questions.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
No, no, I mean to be honest, no.
Well, that makes me feel I feellike you asked the right
questions and I feel like I gotthings I, at least you know was
most pressing on my heart, mymind, to share.
um, I just think this, um, sothis is a podcast, making a
reference to another podcastmoment, so we were talking
before about every ThoughtCaptive with some colleagues and
(45:33):
friends of ours, what Iappreciate about that podcast
and shout out to it, beginningagain.
Maybe I don't know if it'sgoing to, but it should right.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, this is our endorsement.
We're calling out yeah, yeahyeah, do something, do you know
who wrote the music for thatpodcast?
I don't Michael Hester.
Oh my, I don't Michael Hester.
Oh my, I don't know if they'restill using it.
Yeah, they are, are they?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Wow, full circle, full circle, love it.
I didn't know that.
Something that I appreciateabout them is being
intellectually rigorous andhonest, right, and so we've
already gotten at this before.
But if I can just double downon it, because here's what I'm
(46:24):
thinking, I think because I'mhuman and there are humans
listening to this, I'm justassuming that some people
listening to this do the samething that I do, and that is
immediately go to my informationand my sources on why I'm right
.
Confirmation bias, exactly.
Yeah, my wife has challenged meon this a lot and hopefully
(46:47):
I've grown a little bit in theyears that we've been married.
I love to be right, we all doLove to be right, and sometimes
I care more about being rightthan being righteous.
Sometimes I care more aboutwinning an argument than
actually even proclaiming thegospel, and so when it comes to
(47:10):
these conversations, I just wantpeople to be honest,
intellectually honest.
Am I just going forconfirmation bias?
Do I just want to win?
Do I just want ammo?
And those might be.
Sometimes it can be disguised.
I tell people all the time prideis a very devious thing.
It can trick you into thinkingyou're doing something for the
right reasons, but it's all forpride's sake, trick you into
(47:32):
thinking you're doing somethingfor the right reasons, but it's
all for pride's sake, and so youjust need to be honest.
Do I just want to be right ordo I actually want righteousness
to win out here?
And so, like I said, to thosesteps earlier in the sense of
hearing from others, interactingwith others, truly loving on
others.
Those might seem like smallthings and we hear all the time
yes, have relationships withpeople that think differently
(47:52):
than you, but there's a reasonwhy we have to keep saying it,
snl.
Last thing I'll say Brad SNLweird thing had during the 2016
election.
I believe it was announced thatPresident Trump was going to be
president, and then this episodecame out, and the episode had a
skit called the Bubble, and theBubble was supposed to be the
(48:16):
super inclusive place whereeveryone, whose different
thoughts, can come to the Bubble.
I think the Bubble was inBrooklyn actually, and so it
just kind of walked through whatpeople did in the Bubble, and
so it just kind of walkedthrough what people did in the
bubble, and what SNL ultimatelysatirically pointed out is that
we act like we're inclusive andwe're really not.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Because the people that we keep close to us are
people who agree with us.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Exactly.
It's just the echo chambergoing at it and they're like
have this engaging, enlighteningconversation with people who
have different views than yourown, and the back and forth is
disagreement the entire time.
Yes yes, yes, exactly yes forsure, and that's what we end up
(49:06):
doing.
So I just want to say I don'twant us just to shove this off
and act like, oh yes, okay, Ineed to have more friends.
That's not.
It's not just the idea of it.
Do you actually believe thatwe're called to rub shoulders
with people and therefore thatwill change how we approach this
?
And so that would be my lastthing.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
I love it.
I think that's a great note toend on.
I really appreciate you beinghere to challenge me and
challenge our listeners in thisway, and I think you've
definitely given us a lot tothink about.
So thank you Glad to be on here, brad.
Thank you, brother, I'm reallythankful for almost Dr McAberth
(49:50):
there for kind of holding ourhand and walking us, walking us
down a road of what it lookslike to engage with some issues
that we, frankly, probably allwish we didn't have to engage
with as often as we probably do.
Um, but we do, and and I'mgrateful for people like Matthew
who are willing to kind of wadeinto those waters and to show
(50:12):
us how to wade in those watersuh, in a way that that that
honors our calling, in a waythat is full of both grace and
truth, things that we often see,um, as we kind of talked about,
as ends of a spectrum, butreally they're not.
They're not.
Jesus was all grace, jesus wasall truth and, as hard as it is,
(50:37):
we got to figure out how tolive that out.
So I'm going to read ourblessing over us today.
May God show you grace andbless you.
May he make his face shine onyou.
May you experience the love ofChrist, through whom God gives
you fullness of life.
May you be strengthened by hispower.
May Christ himself make us homein your heart, that you would
(51:00):
be full of his love and graceand that those you serve would
see Jesus in you.
Today's episode was produced byMichael Hester, lauren Bryan and
me.
Thanks so much to matthewmcbirth for being here with us
today, and thank you for tuningin and listening if you liked
(51:20):
what you heard.
Don't forget to subscribewherever you listen to podcasts,
and be sure to to catch up withus in two weeks, when we will
be back with another brand newepisode.
In the meantime, you can feelSee you next time, Thank you.
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