BTE4.06 Creating a Welcoming Environment for Special Needs Students 2.0 with Bekah Behnke

Mailbag questions or topic suggestions? Text us!

What happens when the environments that are supposed to nurture and protect our youth fall short for those with special needs? Join me, Brad Warren, and my insightful guest Bekah Behnke, as we dive deep into this crucial discussion. Together, we provide practical strategies for creating a safe and inclusive space within youth ministry, designed to support and celebrate students with disabilities.

Reflecting on a year of growth and change, we unpack the significant strides made in our church’s disability ministry, including the heartening rise in volunteer involvement. By sharing personal experiences and insights, we dive into the nuances of recruiting and training volunteers who truly understand the diverse needs of students with disabilities. This episode also sheds light on the impact of generational shifts in understanding disabilities, particularly in how volunteers connect with students, illustrated by the experiences of Bekah’s daughter, Millie.

Language shapes our reality, and our conversation underscores the significance of respectful and inclusive communication. We explore the importance of people-first language, while also acknowledging the diverse preferences within the disability community.

Be sure to check out the new video version of this podcast on YouTube!

If you want to connect with Bekah, you can reach her by email at [e-mail]. Here is the list of books recommended by Bekah:

• Disability and The Church by Lamar Hardwick 
• No Disabled Souls by Jim Pierson 
• Leading a Special Needs Ministry by Amy Fenton Lee 
• Blessed are the Misfits by Brant Hansen 
• Disability and the Way of Jesus by Bethany McKinney Fox 

Want to connect with us? Here's how!

• www.ciy.com
• youtube.com/christinyouth
• @christinyouth on Instagram
• CIY Community Facebook Group
• Email us at [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My front door is unlocked.
Unbelievable Aldo's going toget out.
No, I just locked it, it's fine.
Aldo's a bozo.
He can never figure out how toget out of an unlocked door, but
he can get out of a wide opendoor, that's for sure.
I have a greyhound, did you?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
know this, I did know this.
You've met.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Aldo.

Speaker 3 (00:22):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Yeah, he's so sweet.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
He hound, did you know this?
I did.
You've met aldo?
Yes, yeah, he's so sweet.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
He's my favorite.
Well, that's good.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Your own dog should be your favorite, but I mean
he's like my favorite, favorite,your favorite of all dogs
you've ever had my favorite ofall living things that I have
ever interacted with oh like heranks higher than you.
I'm gonna be honest that's allright, I'll accept it great and
pikel.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, I don't think aldo's given you a Kentucky
State Parks mug.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
He has not, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Didn't think so.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
But he also doesn't have thumbs, so how could he
even pick one up?

Speaker 3 (00:54):
But wouldn't it be cute if he did yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
It'd be so cute.
I love him so much.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
And he made you coffee in the morning.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
I think it would put me off if I saw a dog that had
thumbs.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
You're like ugh.
Okay, are you ready?

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah one more time, are you?

Speaker 1 (01:13):
ready, uh-huh Rolling Yep Camera speed.
Audio speed yeah all of theabove.
I don't know what all of thosethings mean actually that's all
right, great, so there will bean intro.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
Great.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Which I'm apparently going to do alone.
Yeah, hello, I'm Brad Warren.
This is Beyond the Event, ayouth ministry podcast presented
by Christ in Youth, where wehelp you maintain momentum
between the mountaintops.
For the first time maybe ever,on this show, I'm currently

(01:46):
alone.
I'm by myself.
I feel isolated and I don'tknow what to say because
normally I would talk tosomebody but I can't talk to
anybody.
But I'm glad you're here, I'mglad to be here.
We are going to do kind of anexciting episode today, uh, with
my friend, becca Benke.
Uh, she has been on the showbefore and we did an episode

(02:11):
about a year ago where we talkedabout, um, how to minister with
people, to to people,specifically minister to people
with special needs.
And, uh, on our episode withJoel earlier this season, I
thought you know, since we'redoing this, how to create a safe
space for students, uh, who areunchurched.

(02:32):
We should probably follow up onmy conversation with Becca and
get a little bit more practicalabout how to create a safe space
for students who havedisabilities, who has special
needs, and I actually joked withher in that first episode that
we did that.
Hey, I think this shouldprobably be a part one, and it

(02:53):
turns out it was a part one, sothis is the part two.
I would highly encourage you, ifyou have not listened to the
first episode that we did withBecca in season three, to go
back and give that a quicklisten.
We reference it quite a bitduring our conversation and you

(03:17):
know it's probably just helpfulto have as a foundation heading
into our conversation today.
So, because I'm by myself, nomailbag today and no banter,
this is just what you get.
So we're going to go ahead andjump over to my conversation
with Becca.
Becca Binky, welcome back.

(03:40):
Hello, it's good to be here.
Have we had a person back?
I don't know if we've actuallyhad somebody back now that I say
welcome back to you.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
Hello, it's good to be here.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Have we had a person back?
I don't know if we've actuallyhad somebody back now that I say
welcome back to you I think,only I think only other staff
yeah, only only like ci co-hostpeople which, by the way, I'm
co-hostless today okay, soplease don't judge me, it's just
me and you.
We're gonna see how it goes.
Actually, you know what?
I'm gonna give michaelpermission to jump in if you

(04:06):
have a question.
Michael, for becca, we'll see.
If you have things tocontribute, you just pop right
in.
You be the co-host.
It's great, you pretty much areanyway.
So, um, as we were walking in,you mentioned that the last time
you were on this podcast, wetalked specifically about
chickens we sure did.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
You made a big statement.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
I made a big statement that I have since has
made me a liar.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, you said I would never kill one of my
chickens.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
I did say that.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
And then I proceeded to kill 12 of them.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah.
So the Binkies and I, we raisedsome meat chickens together.
Mine turned out great.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Ours were mediocre, mediocre they were not, and then
the last family who did itthere's were the saddest the
tiniest chickens.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
All that to say, I have reached a point in my life
where I'm comfortable killinggame to eat it um, which is not
where I thought I would be ayear ago when you were on this
show, I guess.
So anyway, we talked about alot last time.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
We did.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
And I actually listened back to that episode to
prepare for this episode and Igot so mad at myself.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
Why?

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Because I was like Brad, because I thought of a
million things.
I was like ask this, and then Ididn't do it.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
Today's the day.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
So today's the day.
But in that episode I did saythis is a part one which I
forgot that I had said.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
You surprised me, then yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
I was like this is a part one, we're going to have a
part two, and here we are, andwe're going to have a great time
and we're going to talk alittle bit more about disability
ministry.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
My favorite.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
So it's been a year.
What's the last year been likein disability ministry?
You learned anything has?

Speaker 3 (05:55):
anything changed.
I feel like our church is doingit the same.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, other than we have this like new excitement
with like young college studentsthat are coming in.
I feel like you have a bunchmore volunteers.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
We have so many volunteers so we hired someone
on staff who now coordinatesvolunteers so that I can focus
solely on curriculum and familyministry, and so our family
ministry side has like taken off, which has been amazing that I
get to use most of my churchhours to like check in on
families and see how they'redoing and walk them through a
lot of the emotions that go withhaving a kid with a disability

(06:26):
and so, and then faith.
Who is doing our volunteercoordination has just like it's
blooming and she, uh, is she acollege student?

Speaker 1 (06:35):
she is, yep, yeah, so college student, working
part-time doing this, which isincredible.
Um, we I, as I was listeningback to that episode, you and I
had a similar thought, I think,at the same time, where it was
like let's get a little bit morepractical, because we did stay
very um up here on that.
And actually one of thequestions that I wanted to talk
to you about was volunteerrecruitment, cause I think, um,

(06:59):
like, if somebody wants to servein youth group, it's like if
you can pass a background check,we'll find a way for you to
serve youth group.
It's like, if you can pass abackground check, we'll find a
way for you to serve.
You know what I mean?
Yep, do you have to be moreparticular than that?

Speaker 3 (07:10):
yes and no okay so it really depends on the student
that that volunteer will beworking with or main classroom.
So I had mentioned last timethat we have several high school
volunteers who have startedserving because of a move
challenge card which has beenbeen as buddies, Yep.
So which has been amazing.
So they started serving in thespecial needs ministry because
they were challenged to do thatat a move and they said yes to

(07:32):
it and have jumped in Um, butthey came in very nervous
because it was not somethingthat they knew.
And so they help in theclassroom, um, where there's
other adults who they can belike hey, what am I supposed to
do here?
Or they have other people thatthey can follow the lead.
Then we have some students whoare maybe in the SMCs.
Our student ministry centers outin a different building where

(07:54):
I'm not always there, there'snot other adults who get it, and
that can be really isolating ifyou don't know the world, and
so I would not send someone newthat's not been around
disabilities into that space.
So it really is like thisbalance of knowing the needs of
the student that I would putthem with and then knowing the
qualifications of the volunteer.
But some of our best volunteershave been people who are like I

(08:16):
don't know why I want to dothis, I've never done this
before, but God's putting it onmy heart, and then we're like oh
, actually gonna be the best,yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
So you use the phrase qualifications of the volunteer
.
What are, like, I'm interestedin, just what makes a great
disability ministry volunteer?

Speaker 3 (08:32):
so someone who knows the world of disabilities is
obviously gonna have experienceof like oh, I know how to
redirect the student.
Naturally, so like grew up witha sibling, yeah, grew up with a
sibling, maybe works in grew upwith a sibling, maybe works in
the school district, even ifit's not in special education,
but they have students withdisabilities in and out of their
classroom.

(08:52):
Those are always really greatvolunteers and again, I think
we're getting to a generationthat is more familiar with
disabilities because inclusionhas been such a great focus in
schools which is great.
And so there was a time beforewhen it was like you literally
didn't have people in yourclassroom that had a disability,

(09:13):
and so I think we're hittingthis really sweet spot with
college and high school studentswho they just naturally get it,
and that's awesome.
Even some of our students whohave just had their peers in
church have a disability comeout of high school and they're
like I really loved hanging outwith them in high school and I'd
like to start this over againand like do it intentionally now

(09:35):
, Um, which is awesome.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah.
So, aside from having beenaround, people with special
needs are there like, and theyanswer this, maybe no, no, and
that's fine.
I'm not baiting you foranything in particular, I'm just
ignorant um are there any like,uh, disposition type things
that you're looking for or um,like I don't know?
Is there something like just no, that's a great question.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
So I mean, personality is a huge thing with
this.
So I think last time you alsomentioned that my daughter,
millie, who has Down syndrome,can be very like standoffish
with people.
Sometimes she is sassy, she'svery sassy and she has this like
thing about her the harder youtry to be her friend, the more
she's like she's like a cat.

(10:20):
She wants to come to you.
So if you like people who are aloud personality, we have
volunteers who I've tried topair up with her, who are like
oh, millie, and like are allover her, like your hands are
pretty, your guts are so cute,are talking her up.
She's like you're trying toohard.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
I would say I relate, but it does not help me be
better friends with Millie.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
Someday you guys will be best yeah we'll get there.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
She gives me high fives pretty regularly now
that's a big deal.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
It's a big deal.
So personality is a big thing.
Um with that and each of mykids is so different.
We've even talked.
We tell our volunteerssometimes like I'm gonna put you
with a kid sometimes becauselogistically, everything about
it, you two would be a great fit.
You may wear the wrong coloredshirt the first time you're with
them and they're like oh, Ihate your shirt and they're not

(11:08):
friends with you.
Or they ask you a questionwho's your favorite superhero?

Speaker 1 (11:11):
you pick the wrong one you're out, you're done,
you're done okay and so it'slike a lot, a lot of trial
you're trying to like putting apuzzle together, but there are
times when you have to be likeOK, this particular buddy
pairing is not correct workingand it's not an indictment of
and we try to do like samegender.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
So a guy volunteer needs to be with our male
students and same, because youknow we don't want to create
relationships in the minds of mystudents that are not real, and
that's happened before, so asbest we can, yeah, avoid all of
that.
That are just not real.
And that's happened before, soas best we can yeah, avoid all,
just try not to do that.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
Um, okay, so another thing as we re-approach this
conversation um, that you hadsaid I said, becca, after
listening back to that podcastwhat?
What is something that you feellike we should be talking about
?
And you said something that Ithought was really interesting,
which was language like thelanguage that we use when we

(12:10):
talk about disability ministry,um, or when we're talking to or
about students with disabilitiesor people with this I'm.
I'm saying students, becausethis is a youth ministry podcast
, but people with disabilities?
Um, what did you mean by that?

Speaker 3 (12:25):
yeah.
So language is obviously veryimportant.
How we talk about people tothem or about them, shows our
heart for them, and so if wedon't care to educate how we
speak of someone, we've reallyshown how little we care about
what matters to them.
And so, um, there's a littlebit of like disagreement in the
disability world now of what'sappropriate speech in some way,

(12:49):
so I'll kind of walk throughsome of those.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
So number one, without there being any conflict
in this, down syndrome isalways Down syndrome, never
Downs, that's never like to beshortened and also just always
using people first language.
So, like I have a daughter withDown syndrome, I don't have a
Down syndrome daughter.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
Right.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
We work with students who have Down syndrome it's not
my Down syndrome student andthen that applies same to autism
.
So people first language iswhat we teach, but in the autism
world that's where thedisagreement lies a little bit.
So like autistic, so some peopleprefer to be called I am

(13:32):
autistic, okay, but we teach toalways say people first language
.
So my friend has autism, oryeah.
And then, unless they're askedlike specifically, you can just
say I'm autistic, it's fine.
But that just kind of shows wesee you as your whole self and
this is a piece of you.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
This is not your identifying thing of like and
especially, especially whenwe're talking about our students
, to maybe another staff memberor volunteers are talking to you
as, like the youth pastor, I'mlike, hey, I have this kid in my
class, he is autistic, and eventhat language, instead of like,

(14:10):
oh, that autistic kid in hereis whatever, thinking about the
way that we say that can reallychange who's hearing it, being
like, oh, this is not a churchfor people in that community.
So, our speech just reallymatters and the tone of like we
value this person and we wantthem.
We're like asking thesequestions because we want them

(14:31):
to be here, not like we'redescribing them and like, oh,
they're really frustrating me.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
That autistic kid in my room is always a distraction
or whatever, but like it's like,you can call him brian right?

Speaker 3 (14:43):
we all know who he is , and we all know he has autism
and it's fine, we can move on.
We don't have to keep goingback to like or like.
I hear a lot of deep breathslike autism.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
It's fine, we don't have to hide it, it's just
something that we, you know.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
I mean, I feel like there's a lot of communities now
that are just kind of likeowning the language that
surrounds that community in areally cool way, so like taking
ownership of that and justsaying, like, all right, we're
people without.
I am a person with autism, I'ma person with down syndrome, and

(15:18):
this is actually something thatI wanted to ask you.
That may be insulting again,brad is ignorant, he's just
asking questions I love it.
Ask away millie your daughterdoes she know that she has down
syndrome?

Speaker 3 (15:33):
oh, she knows it, she's proud okay so we actually
just brought home our son,carter, who is a 14 month old,
who also has down syndrome.
So she has this new brother andshe tells us all the time well,
her new favorite thing is ifI'm like telling him anything
like oh, carter, buddy, it's nottime to roll around, it's time
to eat your bottle.
She's like mom, he has downsyndrome.
I'm like I, I know it's not anexcuse for him to not eat his

(15:57):
bottle like she's like mom.
She'll do that sometimes withschool.
I'll be like, okay, millie, wereally have to read this one.
It's your last one and you canbe all done.
She's like I have Down syndrome.
I'm like, since when has thatever been an excuse in our home?
We know.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
It's the same as saying I'm just a girl, but she
has.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
Down syndrome.
I have Down syndrome so she'svery proud of it.
She knows yeah what does?

Speaker 1 (16:21):
What does it mean to her?
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
It makes her really special.
And that's what she knows.
She's like I'm special, I'munique.
I have my own set of doctorsthat my other siblings don't
have.
And she feels pretty cool aboutit and our kids know, I mean,
this is our home and our wholecommunity of people Autism.

(16:45):
It's pretty amazing to me thatour kids just know how to
interact with people who haveautism and have just like done
that well and so um.
But I would say I feel like thedown syndrome community
specifically.
Most of them know that they'redifferent.
They they're facially.
They have differentcharacteristics yeah personality
wise, like and let me just sidenote on down syndrome, the best

(17:07):
way that you can love someonewith down syndrome is to treat
them their age.
So I know that sometimes youhave an adult who looks like a
little kid and you want to belike oh, baby talk, or like yeah
what are you gonna do today?
Um, instead of just like whatare you up to tell me about your
life like they have?
Yeah things and they want to betreated their actual age that's

(17:29):
interesting, so the like myfollow-up.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
the reason I asked you that question is I'm curious
, has millie been able toarticulate to you at any point?
Like mom, I don't feel like Ifit in in this room, like when I
was at this place.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
Her, I'm able to pick up on what she's missing in her
articulation with that.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
Sure.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
So even our friend group, they.
There's a bunch of little kidsaround, they're all playing her
speech.
She is very, very good at herspeech now.
She's worked really hard on it.
But there are still times,especially in chaos, chaos, when
everybody else is loud that waythat she's articulating is just
not being heard she feels likeshe can't, and so she can't be
heard, and then she'll tell melater like my friends aren't,

(18:16):
aren't hearing me and so most ofher hurt.
And that isn't because she hasdown syndrome, necessarily.
It's like she understands.
It's something in the way she'stalking, has less power or less
space in everybody else's voice.
And so we've had to workthrough that.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, that's interesting, but I'm trying to.
I mean, she is one person right.
She is not the whole community,but it's like as a case study.
What do, what do we learn abouthow to minister specifically to
people with downs just by youknow, kind of asking that
question like what, what is,where does my daughter feel out

(18:56):
of place and what makes her sad,and um, so I don't know.
That's kind of.
I mean, a lot of that appliesto what you're saying At church.
Talk to them like they'renormal people, listen to them
and yeah, no, that's really cool.
So all that to say the languagething is really interesting to

(19:22):
me, especially when you talkedwhen, when somebody from the
disability community isn't evenaround like the way that we talk
about them actually revealssomething about us.
So I take it you've run intosome frustrating situations
where you've been having aconversation and it's like I'm
happy to like.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
If you don't know, you don't know right.
And so there's times that I'mlike when I teach at ozark and
I'm like you're going to ask mequestions, you're not going to
know the right words.
I'm not going to be mad whenyou it's the like I don't care
to learn.
This Hearts.
That I find very frustrating.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
There are people like that, oh, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
So but I will side note.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
The R word retard, is resurfacing and I don't
understand why it's coming back.
Is it really?
It is okay?

Speaker 1 (20:08):
and and if I am going to speak on language, I feel
like I have to touch on likeplease don't yeah there's just
like no room for that in aloving, christ-centered space
yeah, and so if you are someone,even if you're not talking to
or about somebody that actuallycorrect like you're being
derogatory correct it is sayingsomeone like my daughter or my
friends and my students who havea disability, whatever your

(20:29):
friend is doing that you thinkis so silly or so lame that you
would use that word.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
You're putting them what you see of them as the
level of my millie.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah like you're demeaning them.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
You're demeaning them to like.
You're so dumb.
You look like this person, andthose are the people that I
value the most yeah and I wishmore people valued them enough
to be like oh, I would never saythat word yeah, that's so
fascinating.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, it's I, I, I don't know that, I knew that.
I don't know that I, you, saidyes to it well is it like a very
online?

Speaker 2 (21:00):
thing it's.
It's a very online thing.
But there are people who aresaying it like in real life as
well.
Sure, it's I In my, in myexperience with, with, when I've
seen it, it it almost is handin hand with people calling
things gay.
Like it's it's, it's very muchthe same, like groups of people
that will say that's gay orthat's retarded yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
And they use it very flippantly yeah.
Right.
Which again just goes back tolike our words really matter and
when we care about a group ofpeople enough, sure, to value
them as a whole self and notjust like this little nugget
piece of them, but like you area whole human who I value
because, yeah, you have value inthe image of God, and no value

(21:46):
from your own accord or from myown accord, but from God.
Right, then I would never sayanything like that about you, oh
my gosh.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
Ok, so we need to make sure that we're rooting
that out of our own hearts ifit's there.
But I mean students, I mean saythings you know.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Right.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
I heard an eighth grader mumble the F word to
himself at church the other dayand it made me laugh a lot.
Um, but also I'm like, thesepeople just hear, like they're
children.
They hear things and they justrepeat them.
So you have to be intentionalabout saying like no, this is a
line.
We don't cross this line.
Here's why we don't cross thisline, which is super important.

(22:25):
Um, okay, so a, so a student.
We said we were going to getsuper practical as student.
You know, I don't think thatthere are a ton of churches out
there who have a disabilityministry like a specified
disability ministry I think umalmost every church would be
would say like hey, we wantpeople who have disabilities to

(22:48):
feel at home in our faithcommunity, which is great.
So if a person with a disabilityspecifically youth ministry
context I'm going to frame itthat way, um were to come to
somebody's programming and maybetheir mom pulls youth pastor
aside and says, hey, it'sso-and-so's first time here, she

(23:11):
has autism or she has Downsyndrome or whatever it may be,
how would you advise the youthpastor in that situation to kind
of like navigate that wholeconversation?

Speaker 3 (23:22):
That's a great question.
So if a parent pulls you asideand you have this like luxury to
talk to them before the nighteven begins?
wait, it's a luxury like mostparents wouldn't do that I would
say in the disability world,yes, but you will have students
whose parents are kind of hopingthere's just a lot of church
hurt.
Yeah, in this community and soI we have found that families

(23:43):
are nervous to tell the church.
Even though we have a specialneeds ministry, we still have
families that are nervous totell us because they don't want
their kid to be pigeonholed like, oh, they're going to be put in
this other room or they'regoing to be treated differently.
So sometimes parents will justlike slip them in and be like
just put your headphones in, do?
these things and like help andpray that that kid does just

(24:04):
fine in the space.
If you get a parent to talk toyou about it luxury.
The first questions you'regoing to ask are what
accommodations would help yourkid be the most successful?
Using language like we wantthem to be successful here.
We want them to leave knowingthat they were welcome in this
space and want to come back thenext week.
How do we ensure that, whenthey leave tonight, that they're

(24:28):
ready to come back next week sothat you can attend too, and
using language like we want thiswhole family to be here?
You all matter.
How can we make that happen?
Um, tell me a little bit aboutyour kid.
What are their interests?
What are the things that youthink tonight will be too much?
Are they sensitive to light?

Speaker 1 (24:39):
um, whatever, asking those questions when you can
huge and then what would youanticipate would be some of the
more common things that a parentmight say when asked that
question like sensitivity tolight.
You mentioned light.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
Loud noises are two big ones, I'm sure yeah
production level is always goingto be the hardest for my
students.
Um, especially in the autismcommunity and, honestly, in adhd
, which is like skyrocketing inthe number of people who have
adhd.
Um, that's a lot of intake tothe body without a lot of output
.
Um, and I know everyone's likethe kids are going crazy.

(25:15):
They're bouncing up and down,whatever.
If you are a sensory seeker andyou're getting like the loud,
noise and the visual, lights andthings your body is building up
to something and then all of asudden it's like sit down,
that's not probably going to govery well got it so we've built
up all of this input without anyway for them to let it out.

(25:36):
So production level is somethingthat I would suggest warning
families about.
If, like we do have, you know,worship, it can get loud and
rowdy and we have this kind oflighting technique style,
whatever you, however you wantto describe it, sure, um, always
having noise cancelingheadphones on hand is just a
wise choice.
Um, also, there's, like thisweird thing that's happening in

(25:59):
the video game world.
There's a lot of studies aboutit, but that the more especially
with adhd, the more kids whoplay, the more especially with
adhd, the more kids who playviolent video games, um, and
then sit inside loud spaces witha lot of lights.
It can recreate some of whatthey see on a screen and their
mind doesn't know what to dowith it, and so then, because of

(26:22):
their adhd, they're almosthaving an out-of-body experience
of like.
Normally, when I experience this, I'm playing this video game,
but people, real life people arebumping into me and talking and
I feel more around me than whatI normally feel and that really
it becomes this like weirdout-of-body behavioral
experience.
So being very aware that thosethings can happen when you have

(26:44):
students whose minds and selvesjust work differently, and then
transitions, is the otherbiggest thing we have really on
a Wednesday night for mostchurches you have just as much
transitions as a whole schoolday for a student.
Packed into one little hour andif you're a church who's doing

(27:05):
that on a Wednesday night whenthese kids have already been at
school all day.
They've had a very short break.
Now it's like, okay, do itagain.
Up down, sit, go in and out ofthis room, try to make friends,
socialize, but don't do it toowildly.
Find the appropriate way to doit.
It's a lot of regulating.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Play a game sing a song listen yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, so talking kids , kids through.
Like here's how the flow of thenight's gonna go.
If you don't want to stand upand worship or you're feeling
like you need to stand on theback of the room, allowing kids
to move to the back of the room,or out of the room or out of
the room.
We try to encourage our kids togo to the back of the room as
much as possible, just becausewe do think corporate worship is
a very important thing and youcan become very isolated out

(27:47):
there and it be like mydisability or my inability to
regulate right now, takes meaway from this like really godly
, holy thing and so then thatgodly holy thing almost becomes
unholy ground for them.
Um, and so if we can say, okay,you have a space in here, it's
just a little bit quieter, it'sback here, or their body gets to
move, I mean yeah some of mykids like dance, dance and like

(28:11):
they're really getting it, so tosay.
Angel and ruthie are always backthere, yep they're just, yeah,
having their own party, and Ilove having their own, but
that's gonna be what heavenlooks like.
Yeah, I know it's the best Ilove it so much.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
No, that's really cool.
So, but aside from okay, so youmentioned, I want to circle
this back to the framing of thatoriginal question, which was
you.
You talk to a parent.
You're saying, okay, how can Ihelp your student be successful?
Is there anything else that youfeel like you're going to hear

(28:44):
this a lot as an answer?
Besides making sure that theyhave space where, if they feel
overstimulated, like there's aplace for them, that kind of
thing, helping them understandahead of time what the
transitions are, that's going tobe helpful yep, I would say
that, like listening styles areso different, okay, um, and I
don't feel like parents normallytell me that, because it's

(29:07):
almost something that they're soused to Like.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
Oh yeah, my kids always scribbling on paper when
I'm talking to them and they'relike I don't even think about it
, so having like little journalsor little pieces of paper that
kids can just like doodle on orwhatever that like listening
really does look so differentfor everyone.
And to not be offended, thatlistening isn't like sitting and
staring straight at the speakerand giving them all their
attention, and I feel likethat's very few people.

(29:33):
I am that style, like.
I want to like make direct eyecontact with someone who's
speaking.
I want it to feel like we'rejust getting coffee, we're
chatting, um, I feel like that'sactually the minority.
I feel like most people want tobe doing something when they're
listening, especially in thatlarge of a room, so whether that
is some sort of a fidget thattheir hands are staying busy.
We have a lot of rules of like.

(29:54):
This is to keep your hands busyand your mouth not, and so if
your hand, if you start talkingand you're being really like
disrespectful in this space,we're going to take that away,
and when you get your body backto showing me you can handle it,
you can have it back um, whichthat takes time and relationship

(30:15):
to be able to take awaysomething that a kid is using as
a tool to calm down, sowouldn't recommend that on like
first week.
Right here's the new rules, kidso, and that's like a
case-by-case thing too, I'm surecorrect and I would say, just
speaking of like transitions andthings, if you have a kid who's
been there for a while and theysort of know the flow of things
and maybe they're doing great,um, one of my students who, when
she was in high school, likedidn't need a buddy anymore, she

(30:36):
was doing fabulously, and thenthey changed the whole schedule
on a wednesday night and didn'ttell her um, well, it actually
wasn't the whole schedule.
There was like, instead ofdoing games before they started
the main speaking, they justwent straight into because it
was really serious.
They wanted to like have thislike very serious Wednesday
night.
It was high school, so highschoolers can handle that, but

(30:57):
she had no warning of what washappening.
So she goes in like whoa, likeexcited.
She doesn't read the energy orthe room, she's just like I know
at this point of the night,this is how I'm supposed to be
behaving.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
I know the time and the room was at a two and the
room was at a two.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
So then she finally gets down to where they are and
they're talking about likedoomsday stuff.
It's like darkness is real andthings are happening and there's
evil in the world around us andwe are so thankful for Jesus

(31:34):
no-transcript.
And screams.
Someone reaches over, tries toget her to sit down and she
yells.
Someone touched my but did notsay but um, really loud.
So they've built up thisbeautiful moment.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
And she?
It was ruined, yeah, and by nother problem.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
No no.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
And so we had a very lovely conversation after that
night of like.
I think you guys owe her anapology because you did not set
her up to succeed.
You knew the change.
You know who she is as a person, did not set her up to succeed.
You knew the change.
You know who she is as a person.
She was your best listener andthe most engaged in what you
were trying to say and createand you actively scared her and
then expected her to behavecalmly, like that was going to

(32:20):
be appropriate.
If you would have told me orher, we could have said this is
going to happen.
Do you want to stay in the roomwhen the lights go out?
Would that be too much?
Do we want to sit in the backof the room so we can leave as
soon as the lights go out?
What do we need to do?
And we would have talkedthrough it and we would have not
had to worry about any of thator the embarrassment.
They didn't set her up tosucceed.

(32:47):
And that was really.
I'm like I love you so much Iwould never go back I know I'd
be like, yeah, everyone's gonnaremember this forever.
I go to a different church now.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Oh man, that's wild.
So um so transition liketransitions just are hard and
tell them it's easy to get, so Imight be reading into this a
little bit, but a lot of peoplein the disability community like
routine that sounds correctokay so they are, especially
because regulation is hard.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
and then where regulation is extra hard so
youth group, ciy events, thingsthat are like loud sensory, a
lot of people, a lot of energyum, you're regulating is hard,
so they're basically regulatingon a schedule now they've
learned a schedule that are likeloud sensory, a lot of people,
a lot of energy, you'reregulating his heart, so they're
basically regulating on aschedule.
Now They've learned a schedule.
Their body has almost createdthis tempo within itself for the
normal programming.
So when there's a change to that, then they just don't know.

(33:39):
But honestly, like even changes, like when our church was doing
Advent, we started the firstlittle bit Communion was like
people would get up and walk tothe tables.
Well, that's a lovely thing,unless you're in the disability
community and you have aphysical disability and you
actively cannot do what's beingasked of you, in a way that

(34:02):
feels like I have my walker andI don't know how I'm supposed to
carry this stuff to come.
Like we're sitting down withthis now and we all take it
together.
I like brought it here, or Ijust like my body is stiff and
it took enough for me to getinto this space and now I'm
asked to leave when we couldhave just said, hey, we don't
have to not do it.
Like do the things.
Just think enough ahead of like.

(34:22):
These are the people that Ihave and I need to say to you
hey, we're going to do this newcommunion thing.
Do you want to try and walkaround and I can meet you back
there and carry it to you.
Do you want me to just alreadyhave it up there?
Do you have someone who camewith you that would just grab
yours?
How do you want to do it?
Let them decide for themselves.
Or even my friends with autismwho, being in a line when they

(34:43):
weren't expecting to like, allof a sudden they're like in a
line that's like slow pace andthey like bump forward and
they're like oh, oh, and then,like people are tapping them and
like, oh, excuse me, can I comethrough?
And, um, I had a girl who was acollege student, who had some
sensory needs, and during one ofthose nights someone like
bumped into her and then waslike trying to do small talk
with her and she said I handleit really well.
I put my hands up and said I'mnot in the mood to talk right

(35:05):
now and I said I'm glad that youfeel I went great.
Um, I think we can find some newapproaches um and so god bless
so the words are great, I'm notreally like.
I'm just trying to take in thismoment.
Would have maybe been a nicerway, hands down, less
threatening, you know handsstraight up.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
I'm not in the mood to talk right now.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
yeah, um, it's amazing, but you know she hands
straight up.
I'm not in the mood to talkright now.
Yeah, it's amazing.
But you know, she said what sheneeded to say.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
She said what she needed to say and like.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
And she felt fine about it.
Yeah, yeah so.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
And I would hope that the person who is having that
interaction you know that's kindof another interesting thing is
, it's like how is someone goingto respond and something like
that happens.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
But you can only control what you can control you
know so well, and the more thatchurches are used, to my my
friends being there.
Then it's natural, likefamilies are just like oh well,
that was weird, I wouldn't havesaid it like that.
Okay, I'd like to move on andit's fine.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Which I feel like our church is very used to that at
this point.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
yeah, we make ourselves known yeah, we're not.
We're not quietly walkingaround the church I love it.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
I love it.
Um, anyway, that was all likeone thing and I want to circle
way back.
So I'm sorry, um, but back tohaving the luxury of talking to
a parent.
We got through like onepossible topic of conversation
which is hey, how do I set yourstudent up to succeed, or, like

(36:38):
you know, what would be the bestenvironment for them to succeed
in?
Where does that?
Is there anywhere else thatconversation like needs to go so
allowing families to know whatservices you have available.

Speaker 3 (36:49):
So if you do not have a special needs ministry, to
just say, like we don't have aspecific ministry for this kid,
but it is my goal to make surethat your child is welcome here,
we can put a one on one studentwith them.
That does not need to be likefrom a whole ministry Like I
honestly believe that if you areprayerful about this ministry
and this is something that youhave a heart for, like God has
always just given us a volunteerwhen we needed it.

(37:11):
And there's been times thatwe're like, ooh, we're really
tight and we're like the nextseason is going to be fall and
we're going to like boom, andall of a sudden we have like the
exact amount of volunteers thatwe need, and so to just really
trust God in that.
But if you don't have extravolunteers, even like hey, you
work with eighth grade boys andyou have a new eighth grade boy

(37:32):
in there, I just need you to sitnear them, be a little bit more
aware of them, help themregulate, because that also
really helps the other boys inthat group who already know that
volunteer.
Like I know you and you'rehanging out with this kid and
you're talking to him in anormal way.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
I'm going to mimic.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
They're like a third party validator almost Like I'm
going to mimic how you engagewith this student to do the same
and so asking the family likewhat kind of adult, like what's
the status you want that to looklike?
Does your child need aone-on-one full-time?
Do they just need like acheck-in person, um, or do they
really like they can kind ofadvocate and fend for themselves

(38:10):
as long as they have theappropriate tools?
Um would be the other questionthat I would ask.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
So if someone answered that question and said
they really need a one-on-oneperson with them all the time
and I don't have that personright now, nope, because my
personality would be like oh, wecan figure this out we can make
this work.
When I'm thinking based on whatyou're saying, the best thing

(38:36):
to do might actually be to sayhey, we, we don't have that
right now.
Um, like, where would that go,you know?

Speaker 3 (38:48):
so we've had families show up who have like, given us
no information about their kid.
They're like just like here weare and he needs a one-on-one
and we're just gonna like leaveto be like we are happy to have
him here tonight.
I do not have the enoughvolunteers for this.
We have asked a very set amountof volunteers to come on a
wednesday night um, so he canstay.

(39:10):
He will not have that.
So our goal is for the firstnight to always be the most
successful, because it kind ofsets the tone for how that kid
is going to view church.
I don't feel like they're goingto have a super successful time
if you really think they need aone-on-one.
And they don't have one and theydon't have one.
So we have options.
We can try it and I will havesomeone check in a couple of

(39:34):
times.
We'll talk to a volunteerthat's already serving in that
space.
Let them know some of his needsand we will do our very best.
But that will not look likewhat you're picturing right now.
Or he can go with you today,sit in the lobby, take it in.
You're welcome to stay here fora little bit.
Let him see church and then,like, leave after he's
experienced it, but not reallyfully be like a participant of

(39:57):
it, but more like a fly on thewall with mom or dad, which is a
really safe beginning spot.
If that kid's gonna have higherneeds of involvement with a
volunteer, um, but just beingreally honest and don't be like,
oh, that's fine, leave themhere, we'll find someone.
If you don't have someone, justtell them honest and don't be
like, oh, that's fine, leavethem here.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
We'll find someone, if you don't have someone just
tell them yeah, we don't.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Because I could set it up for something not great
down the road even, yeah,especially.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
I don't know I'm learning so much, but the
routine piece is like if thefirst interaction that I have in
this space is not good, itfeels like it's probably going
to take a minute to undo that.
Yep, if the parents and thestudent are even committed to
making that happen, right, um,it's really interesting, okay,
uh, I want, I want to talk aboutone more thing.

(40:45):
Great, so you talk a lot aboutpeople with disabilities being
whole people and how theirdisability is, you know, part of
their life.
It's part of who they are, butnot defining, like even going
back to the people first,language stuff.
One of my biggest questions asI listened back to our other

(41:05):
episode that I was like bradasked, I was trying to like
coach myself, my past self toask the right questions and,
alas, my past self did not.
I'm curious about people withdisabilities serving in the
church.

Speaker 3 (41:23):
Oh, I'm so glad you asked.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
Do you have people in your ministry who serve in
different spaces, and let's justtalk about that a little bit.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
Yep, and let's just talk about that a little bit Yep
.
So two things that wewholeheartedly believe, as
someone who serves people withdisabilities, is one that the
Holy Spirit speaks everyone'slanguage.
So, even my students who arenonverbal, or my students who
may not ever be able to recitescripture or feel like they're
really taking in the lesson, theHoly Spirit is speaking their

(41:53):
language and can be, and is justas active in their life as any
of the other students you'reserving.
So knowing the holy spiritlives in them and is actively
teaching them means that theyshould be guided into service.
So, then, we need to also thenlike they even.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
the root of that is these people definitionally have
gifts and talents and abilitiesand it's like they deserve to
be able to use those things forGod, and we should Just as much
as anybody else.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
And we should know, like the spirit is going to
prompt them in certain ways andfor us to be like, oh, no, no,
no, that's not how we serve atthis church.
Or oh, we don't have, like,that's going to take a lot of
work for us.
We're going to have to do moreserving, for you to serve.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Okay cool, do it.
Yeah, so kingdom work is foreveryone is our second thing
that we believe, so oh, sorry, Ikind of no, that's fine.
You're fine.
And so we have students who.
So my same student who I justtold a story about, when she was
in up she used to love umwriting like drawing pictures
and so she would make birthdaycards.

(42:55):
We had to eventually turn it tojust the male, the female
students, because I think shethought every time she wrote a
birthday card to a male student,she was also like asking him on
a date and he didn't know it.
Um, or sometimes she wouldstand up and like give them,
present their card and then juststart singing like opera style,
happy birthday, and, likeeveryone in the youth groups,
looking at this boy who's beingsang to and he's, you know, not

(43:16):
loving it.
It wasn't creating the like thisbond that we wanted and so, but
that was the way that sheserved and so when we had
birthdays in the youth group ofthat week, she would make a
birthday card on wednesday night.
She would give it to this girland it created this friendship.
It was a very simple, small forher to serve, but she took time
out of her week.
We would just say, hey, theseare the birthdays, here's their

(43:36):
names, and sometimes she's likehow old are they?
And she would want to knowrandom things or like I need to
know their favorite color.
That's a very important thingwhen you're drawing art for
someone.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Yeah, making a card for somebody Picking paper way
of serving and it was beautiful.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
I've had students be door greeters in the SMCs and
some of my kids are like themost welcoming people.
They will say the weirdestfacts to you when you come in.
One of my boys would just likememorize facts and when someone
would come in he would juststart stating a fact.
It wasn't even like how are youtoday, but that's like how he

(44:18):
knew to socialize.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
He'd be like hey, have you, did you know?
And he would just like stay awhile.
Spiders have eight eyes andit's like I did not know that.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Well, thank you for telling me this was great, um,
but then we started havingstudents who would learn other
animal facts or things and wouldsay like oh yeah, but did you
know?
You know?

Speaker 2 (44:33):
And so he would.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
he loved it, and so creating this space where our
students are serving not justlike, obviously, the church at
large, but also really tangiblyin the youth group is huge.
Um, for some of my students sothat looks so different and it's
like asking the church do youhave any papers that need folded
?
And we just put them in myclassroom and we fold them.
When they're done with theirassignment, we talk about wow,

(44:56):
you not only helped, like do thelesson today and you, like, did
worship with us, you also servetoday and like, look how
tangible this is and we havelike a stack.
They can see like I folded allthose papers, all of that yeah
um or cutting and being okay asa church, like if the special
needs ministry cuts though thatthese papers, they're not gonna
look perfect, right, that's fine.

(45:16):
Someone else cut them for youand served you in their with
their greatest investment andlike um, it's been really lovely
in our room to be able to havelittle tasks that we can do like
that and while we're doing them, pray over like which I don't
hold on one second because Idon't want to assume everybody
who's listening to this listento our last episode.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
So you guys have like the buddy system.
So, um, a child, a student,anybody with a disability could
go one-on-one into virtually anyministry in the church, correct
, and, uh, be able toparticipate there.
But there is also the shineroom, yes, which is, if a
student is going to be mostsuccessful, like in a designated
space for people withdisabilities, that would be the

(45:58):
place that they would hang outcorrect, right.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
So when I say my room , I mean that we mean the shine
room?
okay, sorry so for some of mystudents who are have more needs
and are just going to needthings to be at a slower pace
and a quieter place, to say like, okay, hey, you're in your safe
space that you love at church.
Now let's find a way to do this.
Um, we have two of our studentsare going to start serving in
the cafe just by wiping downtables, and we're going to be

(46:22):
teaching them the social skillsof like asking someone, hey, are
you finished with that, can Itake your trash?
And when they say like no, I'mnot finished, should not be like
I'll just just wait here, Letme know when you're done.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
Oh, you, just let me know.

Speaker 3 (46:36):
I'll just be here.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
And just standing there, but like really teaching,
like long-term service, andsaying like you are a whole
person, who is a whole member ofthis church, not just like oh
wow, we're so nice that we havepeople with disabilities here.
Yeah, look at us, we're doingit, we can serve them right, but
like they're actuallycontributing.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
I love, I love the story about the um, the girl
writing cards to people because,you're right, it's not like I'm
sure somewhere at our churchthere is a printed list of like
volunteer opportunities, youknow, and that would never
appear on any any kind of listslike that.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
But being willing to like identify something that
somebody loves or is good at andredirecting that for like a
kingdom purpose is just really,really neat no, we had a student
who memorized all the books ofthe bible in order, and so, as
our way of telling everyone itwas time to find their seats
before programming on sunday, wewould just give him the

(47:37):
microphone and he would.
Genesis Exodus.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
And everyone would be like time to go sit down.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
This is our countdown .

Speaker 1 (47:43):
He was the countdown and then he started getting
faster because he wanted to seeyou better be in your seat by
the time we get to Revelation,Otherwise it's going to be bad
news.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
He learned this like funny game in his head, Like the
faster I go, I want to see howfar I can get.
So he comes to me like I madeit all the way to whatever.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Book of the Bible he was so excited.
Oh, that's such a sweet story.
I love that so much.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
But there are always clever ways for people to serve.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
And in some cases, like you said, the things that
they want to and can do are onone of those lists and being a
door greeter or whatever.
But I just love that.
It's like you know.
We would say that it's part ofthe discipleship journey of
every Christian to serve thechurch.
At some point, like you, reacha point in your faith where
you're using your gifts and yourtalents to serve other people.
Right, that's also true forpeople with disabilities.
Yeah, I love it.

(48:38):
I love it.
I love it.
Okay, what did we miss?
Is there anything else weshould talk about?
I don't even know, michael.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (48:48):
I've been thinking about this during a conversation
.
I think so often when talkingabout or thinking about people
with disabilities, it's so easyat least this is something that
I kind of struggle with and Iimagine a lot of other people
struggle with it's easy to still, even in the back of your mind,
have like a sort of like othersort of way of categorizing,

(49:13):
just like thinking about peoplewith disabilities and being like
, well, that person is differentthan me or that person is in an
other set of people than me.
But just like listening to theway that you talk about people
with disabilities, becca, Ithink it just helps to clarify
so much how much people withdisabilities actually sound like
me and the things that I like,the things that I me and the

(49:35):
things that I like, the thingsthat I need and the things that
I want are very much the samekinds of things that people with
disabilities also want to beable to be seen and heard and to
take the things that we loveand care about and also get to
contribute those things Like.
There's things that I care aboutthat I want to be able to serve
at Christ church with, and so Ijust think it's it is such a

(49:56):
good, like, healthy, helpfulreminder to be able to listen to
the way that you talk aboutthem and say, no, they're just
like us, like they really dojust have all the same like
kinds of like desires and wantsand longings that we do, but
they process things maybe alittle bit differently than we
do, or you know, have differentsocial skills or whatever yeah,
or look a little bit and theirlife, the way that they've

(50:20):
engaged in the world, is sodifferent than us, and so I
think one of the things that wecan gift people with in this
community as a church is to saythis can be one space where you
don't have to do that sodifferently.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
We're like, we can understand that we're different
people, but I'm going to ask youwhat you like and what you want
to do for fun, even if it Ihave no concept of what we're
talking about.
Um, you know, hyper fixation isa big thing in the autism world
, so some of my kids know somuch about one thing.
Yeah, and that's all I want totalk about they're like have you

(50:53):
ever heard of minecraft?

Speaker 1 (50:53):
and I'm like, yes, I have.
And then and that's all I wantto talk about they're like have
you ever heard of minecraft?
And I'm like, yes, I have.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
And then and that's all you're going to hear about
forever.
Um, I have kids who fixate ondinosaurs.
Titanic is a big one um I had astudent who for a while had to
tell me please don't say sadstatistics from the titanic to
new people.
Um, it's kind of a downer today.
So don't lead with how manypeople died right like please
stop but to say, okay, you arereally a whole person who has

(51:20):
interests, and maybe that is ahyper fixation, but you also,
like you, have made yourself anexpert on that.
And there is.
We all, as humans, find value inthe things that we are experts
about or that we that matter tous and to say I'm going to step
into that with you even if Iknow nothing about it, and to be
okay to be embarrassed, um, andthat, like, the social dynamics
of how they interact are goingto be different than us, but a

(51:43):
big part of that is that theyhaven't been taught the other,
because people have made themfeel like this is the only way I
know how to engage with you, soI'll engage with you.
But if I say I'm going to pullyou into this group of my
friends we already are, likethis is how we engage.
I'm going to like, pull youinto that.
You may spout out somethingthat has literally nothing to do
with what we're talking about.
That's fine.
We're all going to keep doingwhat we do where we like, like,

(52:05):
oh my gosh, I to be like, hey,listen, I literally don't want
to hear about dinosaurs againtoday love talking to you.
Love you a lot yeah I wouldreally love to talk about
anything blank yeah and um,pulling them into an actual,

(52:27):
like real social skill, insteadof again that baby and like oh,
that is so interesting.
Like pretend, but to just belike, I, as my own self, know
how to engage with you as yourown self, like I do with michael
and with brad, like I know howto talk to you, and so when
someone comes to me who has adisability, to be like, I'm just
gonna ask you what you like,I'm gonna tell you what I like.

(52:48):
I'm also not gonna be afraid tobe like.
Oh, you didn't actually ask memy name.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
And like to give them that skill.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Like help, coach them a little bit and to not be
embarrassed to do that?
And to be a real friend.
So when you say like theyhaven't been taught the other
way, you mean like there arecertain social skills that,
because of the way that thatcommunity kind of interfaces
with the world, that they justhaven't.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
They haven't experienced it, got it, or
they've watched it um more likea tv, like they've seen.
The group um you'll notice thisa lot in youth group of like
kids who struggle socially, arekind of the watchers of the
group and then when they try toengage, it almost feels like
scripted um, because they'vebeen like okay.
So what I'm supposed to say isI'm supposed to maybe pick a

(53:32):
sports team.
I I actually don't knowanything about this, but this is
what everyone's talking about.
I'm going to pick my sportsteam, I'm going to say something
about one of the players andthen everyone's going to laugh.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
And I'm just going to try it once, and then
everyone's like I don't thinkyou know what that means.
Yeah, yeah yeah.
And so to be able like, hey,why don't you tell something
that you actually like, becausesports aren't your thing, and
that's fine, yeah, um, but tolet them have this like

(54:01):
conversation back and forth,that's not belittling or like,
oh, okay, or like brush past itbecause no one knows what to do
with that yeah, just be like wecan.
Also, you can tell students likewe're done talking about that,
we're gonna move on, or like,hey, when you interrupt your
friends, they don't really likethat.
Everyone loves to hear what youhave to say, but now it's not
the time, that's fine.
You're allowed to say that.
You would say that to any otherkid probably yeah but then you

(54:21):
get nervous when it's like, ohmy gosh, I can't say that to
someone with autism.
Yeah, they're gonna be fineactually they'll probably
remember it less and care less,and be thankful for like a hint
of like hey, you're gonna movein this direction instead, and
they're like, oh great okay,yeah, I feel like, um, maybe
this is a generalization and Iapologize if it is.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
I feel like I know a lot of people with disabilities
that don't embarrass easy andjust have like thick skin about
that kind of stuff too.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
You know, like I don't know, it just seems, and
maybe that's like a defensemechanism that I they feel like
they kind of have to becausethey know that they don't fit in
perfectly in every situation Ithink and this is again an over
like this is everybody and it'snot everybody, but population at

(55:11):
large, I would say when, likethick skin as far as like
helpful tools, being spokendirectly like I can actually
kevin has to tell me sometimeslike you don't need to talk to
that person so directly becauseI'm so need to talk to that
person so directly because I'mso used to it, like that is in
my friend group of people whohave autism, I can just be like
hey, we've been talking aboutthe same thing forever and Kevin

(55:31):
will be telling me about somenew tool he bought whenever I'm
like listen, you've been talkingabout this for a while.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
Kevin is Becca's husband.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
Kevin is my husband he loves to talk about tools and
sometimes I'm like hey, I thinkwe're done talking about this
and he's like why are you saying?

Speaker 1 (55:46):
that to me, and I'm like I don't know.

Speaker 3 (55:48):
You were raiding the room, buddy.
I thought I should tell you.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Kevin also.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
He's fine with it.
He's a talker.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
He's a talker.
You get him going on something.
You could be there for a while.
He loves to chat, yeah, whichis great.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
We love Kevin and he's used to me telling that
there's also times that he'slike I think you kind of shut
that person down and I'm like,oh, did I?

Speaker 1 (56:07):
Oh, I look back and I'm like oh, maybe I did.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
But the people in that world are kind of always
looking for tools and help, andwhen they see a friend who's
able to say like if you hadsomething in your teeth and I
knew we were going to go andtalk to other people, I would
tell you hey, you got a littlesomething in your teeth.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Right.

Speaker 3 (56:23):
That's just like a loving friend thing to do.
You don't have anything in yourteeth, your smile is beautiful,
but that's like a loving thingwe tell our friends like hey
something is off today or likewhatever, but we forget to treat
our friends with disabilitieslike that.

(56:43):
Or if like like hey, we're gonnago meet this person, whatever I
like maybe would guide you inlike meeting a new friend, like
hey, they've been through a lot,whatever social preparations,
and then we like skirt aroundthat and get more nervous with
this group of people whoactually are like thriving and
needing that and like willing tosoak it in.
However, not thick skin aboutlike being mocked or oh yeah,
feeling yeah yeahyeah I would say my friends

(57:05):
probably have a better sense ofreading emotional, like
disconnect, than a lot of people.
Um, because they have so muchtaught to them about like kids
who have especially autism.
I don't there's like a lot ofreally here focus of like point
to the face that's happy, pointto like facial recognition and
learning emotion and empathy andthat is so taught to them

(57:28):
because sometimes it doesn'tcome natural that they are able
to read people super well, sofast, and so then they can tell
like, oh, you're being sarcasticwith me.
Sometimes they can't, and I'mlike I, I know they kept asking
questions, we walk away later.
I'm like they were being reallysarcastic and you weren't

(57:48):
reading it, and so then theydidn't know what to do.
So that's why that conversationwent so long.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
Next time you could just be dead.
But this kind of goes back tolike Millie knowing that she has
a disability, correct, and it'slike man, if you can help me
relate to my friends, that'sgoing to be a good thing.

Speaker 3 (58:01):
She knows that yep and can like internalize that
and something we talked about onthe last podcast was, like our
goal as this ministry is not tojust like babysit kids or help
them like oh yeah, church is fun, but like to know how to be a
church, like a churchgoer as anadult, that my job is to teach
this person how to do churchwhen there is not volunteers

(58:23):
around to help them, how theycan go into college years being
a church member, and that comesfrom us teaching life skills and
social interactions early on.
So the younger, especiallymiddle school, to be like, have
the bravery to tell a studenthey, we're not gonna talk like
that.
Or hey, you can't just walk upto someone and start a

(58:45):
conversation in the middle of itbecause that's where your
thought was, but you need to asksomeone like you should always
start a conversation with hey,man, how are you If you don't
know their name start with anintroduction.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Cool, all right, we've been here a long time,
we're going to be done great.
First, though, would youencourage a youth pastor,
children's pastor, who mightreally want to do this but feels
overwhelmed by it?

Speaker 3 (59:14):
I mean I would say there's so many great books out
um, so read all of the books.
Do the research get to know?

Speaker 1 (59:22):
are there any in particular that you recommend?

Speaker 3 (59:25):
So there I would say, one really like soft start into
this world is one that's calledBlessed are the Misfits.
It is written by a man who hasautism, who didn't know until he
was an adult, and it's just alot of like how we talk about
God being this, like emotionalfriendship being and how like
he's our best friend, and to theautism community being like I

(59:48):
don't actually even know how torelate to people, nor do I feel
close to people, and I don'tknow how to put those two things
together.
So just how like commonlanguage we use on stage, how
that is kind of counterintuitiveto some of the people in the
autism community.
Um, so that's a really greatone.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
I'm happy to send you a list of books If you can like
we can do, we'll do show notes,great, so I'll send you more
down there books.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
I would also say like I'm happy my email can be in
there too.
I'm always happy to helpchurches if they're trying to
start something.
I think I get like an email aweek of a new church who's
trying to figure out how to dothis, and that is like my
favorite email to get.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
I love it so much.
Well, I'm very grateful for you, becca, I'm grateful for the
ministry that you have at ChristChurch and super grateful for
you taking some time to help usunderstand this whole world.
That is a beautiful, greatworld that we should all long to
be a part of, so thanks forbeing here.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Super grateful to Becca for being here with us and
helping educate us aboutsomething that you know I think
is a little bit under-resourced,probably in the church world,
and even her she referenced thata lot of people in the
disability community haveexperienced church hurt and I
probably should have pressed hera little bit on that and just

(01:01:11):
asked a few follow-up questionsabout where that comes from and
why that is and all thesedifferent things.
But I mean, it kind of standson its own a little bit that a
lot of these people, for onereason or another, feel
uncomfortable at church.
So I am very grateful that weall have some practical tools
now in our tool belt that we canuse in order to create a safe

(01:01:35):
space for people withdisabilities not just to be and
not just to exist, but tocontribute and to have real
relationships and friendshipsand to serve and to do all of
the beautiful things that makeus a part of the body of
believers.
So I'm going to read ourblessing over you and we'll look

(01:01:55):
forward to seeing you in acouple weeks.
May God show you grace andbless you.
May he make his face shine onyou.
May you experience the love ofChrist, through whom God gives
you fullness of life.
May you be strengthened by hispower.
May Christ himself make hishome in your heart.
You would be full of his lovinggrace, and that those you serve

(01:02:16):
would see Jesus in you.
Today's episode was produced byMichael Hester, lauren Bryan and
myself.
It was such a great episode.
I'm so thankful for Becca.
So thank you, becca, for beinghere with us today.
We're going to be back in acouple of weeks and I'm going to
be really honest, I don't knowwhat we're going to talk about,

(01:02:38):
but we're going to talk aboutsomething that's going to be
awesome, so I hope you'llsubscribe wherever you listen to
podcasts or subscribe to ourshow on YouTube, so that you
don't miss anything.
In the meantime, you can reachout to us on the community
Facebook group or by email atpodcast at cicom.
See you next time, thank you.