January 6, 2025 • 57 mins
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What if your church could create a stronger bond with families and youth through a unified ministry approach? Learn how two experts in next-gen ministry, John Luzader and Anne Wilson, are paving the way for spiritual growth and support. John, CIY’s Vice President of Experiences, shares his invaluable insights drawn from years as a youth pastor and parent. He emphasizes the necessity of a cohesive church team dedicated to providing continuous spiritual guidance. John reveals how churches can become allies to parents by offering resources and facilitating vital spiritual conversations at home.
Anne Wilson, NextGen Pastor at Trader’s Point Christian Church, adds her experiences in unifying children's and student ministries. Her journey from youth pastor to leading a comprehensive NextGen ministry gives her a unique perspective on the common communication challenges youth pastors face. Anne discusses the power of integration in ministries to foster collaboration and shared vision, making it easier to support families effectively. She highlights how a unified strategy not only bridges gaps but also empowers ministries to resource parents more thoroughly.
We explore the transformative power of collaboration, sharing strategies that ease transitions from children's to youth ministry and build trust among church teams. Discover how joint programs and shared responsibilities between kids and youth pastors enhance engagement and address broader community concerns, like technology use among youth. By focusing on what benefits families most, our guests demonstrate how a ministry built on collaboration and trust can offer a cohesive and welcoming environment.
Be sure to check out the new video version of this podcast on YouTube!
Want to connect with us? Here's how!
- www.ciy.com
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- CIY Community Facebook Group
- Email us at podcast@ciy.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello, I am Brad Warren.
This is Beyond the Event, ayouth ministry podcast presented
by Christ in Youth, where wehelp you maintain momentum
between the mountaintops.
Last week we got to talk toJohn Lee about NextGen ministry,
which was super fun with LaneMoss.
This week we're getting anotherperspective on NextGen ministry
.
We're going to chat with AnneWilson.
(00:26):
She's the next-gen pastor atTraders Point Christian Church
in Indianapolis and, fun fact, amember of the board here at CIY
.
We love Anne.
You might have seen her out onthe road speaking at one of our
events.
She's spoken for MOVE for many,many years and does a wonderful
job.
Moral of the story we love Anne.
I'm very excited for you tohear from her about her new
(00:49):
adventure in next-gen ministry.
But first we get to chat withCIY's Vice President of
Experience, john Luzader.
John, for the first time ever,welcome to Beyond the Event.
Thanks, brad.
Oh my gosh, I'm so happy thatyou're here.
I've tried to make this happenliterally for years and you are
the busiest person at 2201 NorthMain Street in Joppa, missouri.
(01:13):
That's not true.
That is actually 100% true.
You are always on the phone.
You're always pacing, talkingon the phone, or you're in
Phoenix, or you're in a meetingor whatever.
Everybody loves john and wantsto hear what john has to say.
That's a true fact.
Um, so what does it mean thatyou're the vice president?
Because I know what it means,but like what does it mean?
(01:33):
What is the vice presidentexperience?
What is that?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
that's a good question.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I asked myself that some days because you were the
vice president of culture, I was, and then they, and then we
split, split that out thenthere's someone way better
suited for culture than mejennifer deardorff.
We love her.
She crushes it.
She crushes it.
Uh, what do you?
What do you?
What do you do here?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I work on the team of people who lead out in each of
our programs, so there's oneperson who kind of oversees the
delivery of Superstar, Move, Mix, Engage and then our digital
resources.
The people who have thoseresponsibilities are the team
that I work with.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
All of those people have been on the show before
Lane Moss, Caleb DeRoyne,Caitlin Adams, Corey Klein,
Brittany Shoemake, John Luzattersit around a table together and
help figure out how to makegreat experiences for youth
pastors and for students.
That's us, that's you, and youdo a wonderful job at it, if I
do say so myself.
Thanks, Brad.
Okay, we're talking aboutnext-gen ministry today.
(02:39):
You have some next-gen peoplethat live in your house.
I do Little meatheads as youcall them.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I do call them that pretty often, you're meatheads,
all boys.
I have a freshman in highschool, junior in high school
and a freshman in college.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
That's crazy.
It sounds like a lot.
So what do you think aboutnext-gen ministry?
Why is that important to JohnLuzetter, dad of three boys?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Super great question.
Uh, I've been a youth pastormost of my life Um is that true?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
You, you were a youth pastor longer than you worked
here.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Hmm, we just passed that threshold.
Just.
Oh, wow, that's crazy.
Okay, so, um, love, um love.
Youth ministry, love, love, uh,I'm a little bit more geared
towards high school students andjunior high students Probably
it's probably the safest way tosay that.
Uh, I know how to have fun andbe crazy.
Uh, also don't mind havingserious conversations, and so
(03:35):
have enjoyed all that kind ofstuff.
Been at CY now for uh 16.
We're going working towards, uh, longer than that.
Uh, love what we do here.
Uh, we're working towardslonger than that, love what we
do here.
Been a dad for 19 of thoseyears, which is kind of crazy.
And I will tell you, learn morelessons about youth ministry
being a dad than probably beinga youth pastor, which is weird.
(03:56):
Next-gen ministry figuring outhow to have some kind of
continuity between all of yourpeople on that next-gen team
from a parent's perspective issuper, super helpful.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
How come, how does it change your life if all of
those guys are on the same page?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
It makes my life way easier.
I'll just tell you this as ayouth pastor you want to tell
your kids about Jesus and youwant to connect with their
friends and you want them toexperience God in ways that
shape their heart.
There's no doubt about that.
But when you're done thatevening they go home and guess
where they go?
They go to my house and for thenext six days, as a parent, I'm
(04:38):
trying to figure out how tohave spiritual conversations,
how to help them make sense ofthe world, the crazy world that
they live in, whether that's atschool or in sports or whether
that's in our own home, how tomitigate being a high school boy
man making decisions that maybe different than everybody else
(04:59):
.
And as a parent, sometimes thoseconversations just are hard.
You don't know how to have them.
You don't know if you know theright answer.
You don't know how to have them.
You don't know if you know theright answer.
You don't know if yourpersonality is the same as their
personality and what you'regoing to say is going to
resonate with them.
And there's a lot of those kindof hurdles in the world of
being a parent of a studentwho's trying to figure out how
to follow Jesus and having achurch that supports you and
(05:21):
helps you and equips you andgives you questions to ask when
you don't know the rightquestions or gives you things to
say when you don't know theright things Super, super
helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
From the day that they're born until the time they
graduate high school.
Having an ally in the church isjust super important.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I'd extend that until the time they get on their own
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
We're in a new world.
The Blues Adders are a newchapter with the college college
thing, and it's not as easy asit looked when I was a youth
pastor, that is for sure.
But you said a very interestingthing there, which is, um, I
don't know, this was a littleclause you had in there.
I don't know if they have thesame personality as me or not
sure you have a uniquepersonality.
(06:02):
You were raised by a man who wasa Marine right, that's true.
Yeah, so military household.
We love John so much.
You're so great.
I'm curious which of your boysis the most like you?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh, my youngest.
Yeah, mm-hmm, personality-wise,for sure, my oldest is similar
to him, like he's reallyperceptive.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
He can kind of no.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
No, his personality as a 14-year-old is very similar
to mine when I was a14-year-old there are some
things that stick with you asyou get a little bit older.
But for sure and he is superresponsible he is pretty
perceptive, more than otherpeople.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah, the thing I respect about you is you can
kind of like sit in the cornerof the room and no one knows
you're there, but you're payingattention to everything.
And then you drop a question ora comment and it's like, oh,
john's here and also he justchanged my life with that thing
that he said.
Is that your 14 year old?
I'm not sure that's me.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
But, uh, that is you, michael me, but he's getting
there.
That is you.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Michael, is that John ?
He's getting there.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
I would say that that is a pretty fun description
that lines up with a lot of myexperience Great.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So let's say that's my personality.
Let's say I've got a kid who'sdifferent than me, so way more
in tune with feelings, way morein tune and and the give and
take that goes from thoseinteractions.
So, as a parent, how do I have ahard conversation or a shaping
(07:33):
conversation with a personalitythat's different than me about
spiritual things?
Because, as a dad, spiritualthings matter to me and I want
them to matter to my kids.
Yeah, yeah, that's what thechurch the church could be a
gigantic resource for parents inthat kind of a way, just to
simply say, hey, john, we knowyou're a knucklehead sometimes,
(07:54):
but you got to talk to your kidabout this.
Here's some tools to help youdo that.
Tremendous, it's a game changer.
I love what happens on sundaynight at youth group or
wednesday night youth group is abig deal.
But, as a parent, having toolsand resources that help my life
the other six days of the of theweek but, like I said, total
(08:17):
game changer yeah, well, we'llget into all of that with ann
and I'm excited to hear what shehas to say about all of that.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Into all of that with Anne, and I'm excited to hear
what she has to say about all ofthat.
But first, john, we have atradition here on Beyond the
Event it's called the mailbag,where we answer questions, the
student, pastors, the peoplethey want to know, you know, and
we give the people what theywant.
So, michael, take it away.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
So, brad, in the Facebook group you posted a
picture with mailman tim I didand matt tibbett said the
mailman tim pic got me hyped,only to let me down, bradley
sorry, matt further down thecomment section, ryan bennett
also added that we should tryand get tim onto the podcast
(09:02):
sometime to catch up with himand see what he's been up to.
I think those are fun ideas,but this makes me think of a
question that I don't know hasbeen asked.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
So this is a mailbag question from Michael.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
From me.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Oh fun.
Thanks for writing in, michael.
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
Which Tim is your favorite?
Tim, oh man, caveman, I wasalso thinking about Caveman Tim.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I think who was the first?
Was Spaceman the first?
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Spaceman was very early on.
So Spaceman Tim was my freshmanyear of high school, I think.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Okay, so I think he might have been.
Did we do Mailman then Spaceman, or did we do Space man then
Mailman?
I can't remember Space man forme.
I don't remember Space man wasfun.
Space man was very fun Becausehe did the interlude dance too,
space man was very fun.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
In outer space space man.
I'm sticking with caveman.
Um, I feel like that was alater rendition where they were
like he's had some careers.
Now let's put him in another.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
You know, time, it's all it's it's almost like we ran
out of ideas for, like jobs uh,that have the word man in it,
and we just had to come up withsomething else yeah, I also, you
know, like I, after I graduatedhigh school, I didn't get to go
to move for several years, andthen 2017 was when we had
(10:32):
caveman tim and I was an eventstaff for engage.
was that one week of move in themiddle of the summer?
Um, and as someone that was alittle more advanced in years
than when I was in high school,I was able to appreciate, um,
the, the 10 characters, in a waythat I don't think I knew how
to appreciate when I was astudent.
(10:52):
He was the best man.
Caveman Tim was a fun one, butI'm pretty sure I I really think
spaceman Tim was was myfreshman year, so that's one of
the ones that I that I rememberthe most quickly.
Yeah, tim was great to work withall those years, all those
years, all those years, and wemiss him.
So we have a question from MattBerry.
(11:12):
Again, thank you, matt, for allof your questions.
It's like reading a book wemight publish it and Matt wants
to know what do you wish youwould have known or heard about
leadership when you were younger, and what should we be telling
our students now?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So the question really is when I was younger,
back in high school or middleschool?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
that's the question that he's asking yeah, when you
were in student ministry.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Or maybe even when you first started out in a
leadership role.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Hmm, first started out in a leadership role.
Hmm, I will let me say this, letme go with um when I was in
high school.
Okay, I wish I would have known.
Uh, I wish I would have learnedto ask better questions.
Be a little more curious.
Whatever you want to go, tedlasso's version be a little more
curious.
Curious, um, and just askingpeople that I've respected
(12:08):
better questions.
I think I think I was a prettyobservant kid.
Well, I'm one of those peoplewho learns.
You know, if I watch you andyou fail, I'll be like, oh,
don't do that, you know.
Or if I watch you and yousucceed, I'm like, oh, maybe I
should, yeah try that, let's dothat.
I've been one of those kind ofpeople and probably did a little
bit too much of that, justobserving and not necessarily
(12:29):
asking great questions,specifically in high school,
middle school, when it comes tohey, why'd you make that
decision?
Or hey, why'd you have thatconversation, you know, I think
that I think that would havebeen a little.
That's super helpful to learnfrom people who've already made
mistakes or celebrated big,gigantic wins.
Ask great questions.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
We've never talked about this before, but I'm going
to talk about it with you rightnow.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
When I was an intern at Journey Christian Church in
Greeley Colorado um, it was thespaceman Tim year, because I
later dressed up as spacemanBrad and filmed some follow up
videos.
Uh so, but we went to Colorado.
(13:27):
Did you ever direct Colorado?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
we went to.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Colorado.
You were the director and theguy that I work for.
Terry Davis said John is one ofthe best leaders that you'll
ever meet and you need to askhim a bunch of questions.
And he set up a lunch and wesat down at lunch in Durango,
colorado, and I need to ask hima bunch of questions.
And he set up a lunch and wesat down at lunch in Durango,
colorado, and I got to just likepick your brain about a bunch
(13:50):
of stuff and I took notes.
I don't know where that journalis but it's like I remember
being like what do I ask?
I don't know, you know like,but that is such a good skill,
Just not you know like, knowingwhat to ask and asking people
who are ahead of you and, um,cause, I didn't know to do that
and I didn't know how to do that, but he, Terry, pushed me to do
that, which I'm thankful for.
(14:11):
But yeah, you probably don'tremember that.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Maybe I do, I don't know yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Anyway, that that's funny the way you said reminded
me of that, though I haven'tthought about that in years.
So that's funny the way yousaid reminded me of that, though
I haven't thought about that inyears.
Great advice, though Good stuff.
You ready to go talk to Ann?
Yeah, Okay, let's go talk toAnn.
Ann Wilson welcome back toBeyond the Event.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
So happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Welcome back.
The last time that you werehere was a long time ago.
I feel like we talked aboutmental health.
It was a great, great, great,great conversation.
We're going to do a differentthing today.
How are you?
You doing good.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Doing great.
Christmas time is here.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Christmas time is here in this life, in the life
where people are listening tothis.
It is 2025.
The Christmas trees are away.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
It was doing wonderful.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So we're going to have to vibe check that a little
bit, but that's okay, that'sall right.
I feel like the listenersdeserve to know.
You were just in Joplin.
You were just here at our boardmeeting.
You're a member of our boardand you were so busy that we
were not able to make thishappen while you were literally
in the same city as us.
So here we are, on zoom makingit happen, talking about next
(15:35):
gen ministry.
It's going to be so fun, okay.
So the setup to this is youwere um over the student
ministry at Trader's PointChristian Church.
Going back to when.
When did that?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
start.
Let's see.
I've been at Trader's Pointalmost 12 years.
The first five years I was inour marketing communications
team and before coming toTrader's Point I was a youth
pastor.
So, I'll just say I had a superlinear career, but then in 2018
, I joined our students team andin 2019, I stepped into the
(16:12):
lead role.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Okay, so I've been leading the students team since
2019, and at Trader's Point I'mgoing to say this and then I
want you to polish it up,correct me, whatever you got to
do.
Like the ministries that wouldtypically fall under like a next
gen or family ministry categorywere kind of like doing their
(16:34):
own things.
Like you had an elementaryministry that was kind of like
functioning on its own studentministry that was kind of
functioning on its own preschool.
Is that right?
Would you say?
That's true.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I would say so.
When we went multi-site in2015,.
I would say the age group thatgot probably the most lost was
preteen, because it went backand forth from students to kids,
and then we learned reallyquickly we needed a lot more
strategy around that, and so itreally did become Trader's Point
(17:07):
kids, which was birth throughsixth grade, and students, which
was seventh through 12th grade.
So, but they were separateteams for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
And then a year ago this is exciting for you,
congratulations you became thenext gen pastor.
This is exciting for you,congratulations you became the
next-gen pastor at Trader'sPoint and now you oversee birth
all the way up through 12thgrade, right?
Yep, that's right, okay.
So I am hoping out of ourconversation today that we can
kind of encourage youth pastors,or primarily people who are
(17:47):
listening to this podcast, thathaving kind of a cohesive
strategy for that entire agegroup is important and that it
does have benefits.
So what was kind of like theroad that led Trader's Point to
going away from the model thatthey were in and then having you
kind of oversee all of thesedifferent things?
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Yeah, well, honestly, a lot of it came from years of
collaboration with Traders PointKids and Traders Point Youth.
That it sort of happened,naturally, where it just made
sense to have one departmentwhere we all worked together,
helped each other.
But I would say for me thatpersonally began even just in my
(18:21):
first ministry.
I was a youth pastor at achurch here in Indianapolis on
the west side of town and thekids pastor at the time wanted
to work with me so much and Iwas just so confused by that.
I was like I'm here with theteenagers, you're there with the
kids, I have nothing to offeryou.
But she had a vision for whatfamily ministry could be that I
(18:47):
didn't yet have.
And working with her for thosefour years really, I think,
prepared me for then when I wentback into students years later,
yeah, having a just knowingwhat was missing because we
weren't together.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
So okay, so what was missing?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
though you know like what was missing I would say a
unified strategy to reachparents.
Um, and then that played into alot of different things that,
honestly, maybe if you werelooking at it from afar,
wouldn't have seemed like, oh,those are way different, like
(19:28):
they're operating totallydifferently.
But if you got sort of in theweeds, we just had different
approaches to the way that wecommunicated with parents, to
the way that we led events, andagain, neither good nor bad, but
because we were working withthe same families right, it's
like needed to be more unifiedand then, in addition to that,
(19:48):
just more proactive in the waysthat we are reaching, resourcing
, helping parents.
The data shows that the churchis probably like the third most
important voice in a youngperson's life, behind parents
and friends, and so often, somuch of our kids ministry
strategy and youth ministrystrategy is around the kids in
(20:11):
front of us and the students infront of us.
But the people we really needto reach the most are the
parents.
And again, nothing wasinherently wrong.
It was just separate and weknew that we could do more
together so, like john, you havethree boys age range 14 to 19
(20:31):
14 to 19, been a part of a lotof churches.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
So, um, at different like.
Do you resonate with that atall?
Like, is that something that islike familiar to you, where
it's like oh, I have one kid inchildren's ministry and one kid
in youth ministry and the waysthat I relate to these two
ministries are entirelydifferent, or is that not like,
I don't know?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
for sure.
I think I've never been in an'schurch before, so I don't have
that context, but been inseveral different ones and and
communicating and connectingwith parents is definitely a
struggle for the average youthpastor.
The older you get, the more ofa reality it is.
You've got to learn that skill.
When you're young.
(21:17):
You know you're wanting to havefun and attract students and
tell them about Jesus and behonest with them and you know
walk through scripture with themand sometimes sometimes people
discount that maybe, maybe thisis the right way to say that or
just don't see the value ofhaving parents on your team.
But being in a healthyenvironment like Anne's
describing.
Uh for sure, as a parent, we'rein a church that that works
(21:42):
hard at at that and it's beensuper helpful, super beneficial,
just in in as a parent walkingthrough spiritual growth steps
with your kids.
I got three boys.
With my three boys I've beensuper helpful that you can see
the win of a church doing it.
I've had that experience andit's been a very positive one
for us.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So we'll go ahead.
Nope, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I think, just inherently the wiring of a kid's
pastor and a youth pastor.
Now I'm going to speak ingeneralities here, so I know
there are exceptions to this,but they compliment one another
so much and they help each otherso much, and so when they work
separately, it really is totheir own detriment and the
family's detriment that they'renot like helping each other out.
(22:26):
So a real practical example ofthis was when we started doing a
unified process for campcheck-in, which sounds like the
most boring example.
But kids pastors I mean theyhad that on lock.
As far as safety check, bagcheck I mean, the line was so
efficient.
(22:47):
Youth pastors had the vibes downright.
It felt exciting.
When you walked in, you werelike I think this might be the
best week of my life, but youcouldn't say the same vice versa
with the other things.
And so when we this year, thekids and youth team, did that
together and it really wasmagical for lack of a better
word of just I year, the kidsand youth team did that together
and it really was magical, forlack of a better word of just I
mean we had parents being like,wow, I feel like I just went
(23:09):
through the airport in a reallygood way, you know, like of just
a very efficient process thatwas clear kids and youth were
going to be safe, but also feltreally great too, and so I'd say
the same.
I'm in a multi-site context, butI think it's true in a small
church context or one largechurch context of kids and youth
, people have a lot to give eachother and just the way that
(23:33):
they're wired, the way theirbrains think, the way they
operate, that I think has beenmissing at times and in all of
my ministry experiences that'snot just unique to Trader's
Point.
I know I learned so much fromAllison, who was the kid's
pastor at the first church Iserved at, even just about
parent communication, and it hadnot occurred to me to be as
(23:53):
proactive as she was at campwith parent communication.
We worked on that together.
So there's just a lot of thingsI think that can mutually
benefit each other.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
So when you stepped into this role a year ago it's
only been a year brand new,fresh.
What's at the top of the list?
What are the first things thatyou're wanting to get in place
and moving and shaking andtrying to influence this culture
that you're talking about?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Yeah, the first was that we identified we were
losing both kids and youth intransitions, and so when I say
transitions, I just mean thosevulnerable ages where someone is
making a change, and that'soften when parents are thinking
about parenting the most right.
It's like the time when yourkid is going to kindergarten for
(24:41):
the first time, or when youhave a new baby and you bring
them to the nursery for thefirst time, or they're going to
middle school or they'regraduating.
Most parents are reflecting inthose moments on like am I a
good parent?
So not only were we missingthat opportunity to help come
alongside parents, but also weweren't cohesive in the way that
we made sure students were notdropping off kids and youth.
(25:05):
And so really practically thefirst thing that we looked at as
a whole team was that preteenage and asking okay, traders
Point Kids is doing this forpreteens, traders Point Youth,
we're trying to catch preteensin this way.
Our numbers in that age aredwindling, which means real
(25:25):
people are leaving, and inTrader's Point kids those
numbers were dwindling.
It's like how can we meet inthe middle of what could be and
how can we retain that age thatwe know is just really
vulnerable?
Our solution was one thatsurprised all of us, which was
for us and this is for ourcontext we have youth on
(25:47):
Wednesday nights, so we don'tuse the building on Sunday
mornings for youth ministry.
But the solution for us was howabout we invite sixth graders
to both experiences all yearlong to help with the transition
from kids to youth, and thatstarted in August, so that was
kind of the first age we decidedto target.
(26:09):
If you will of like, we need tomake this better.
There will be more in the nextyear or so.
I don't want to say a ton andlike scare my team, no, but
we're really looking at babiesas well.
And then graduated seniors,young adults, those just
vulnerable transitory timeswhere people are, yeah, asking
(26:31):
all kinds of questions.
For new parents, they'reobviously it's like how can we
capture the beauty of the church, even though they're just
dropping them off from thenursery?
Like, how can we tell the storyof what it means for you and
your family to be a part of thischurch family for the next 18
years?
We're missing that right now.
And then for graduated seniors,similarly and this is a tale as
(26:54):
old as time right, it's likethe young adult question
continues to be really hard tofigure out, but that's not an
excuse.
So I'm doing a ton of workthere right now to help make
things better.
So for us, yeah, the first year12 months really I started this
role in August of 2023, but itwas just, yeah, a ton of
(27:14):
discovery around what's notworking, what's going really
well, what do you love aboutwhat you do?
I had one-on-ones with everykid's pastor and just asked them
to come with a story of whatgets you up to do what you do.
What do you love about what youdo and what is really really
hard right now.
And it became really clear fromeven those one-on-ones that
(27:37):
sixth grade was burdening all ofthem because they're seeing
their sixth graders drop off andthen, similarly, with youth
pastors, we're seeing how hardit is to then get them back
after they've dropped off.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
So I think a lot of this is.
This is what that made me thinkof.
I think a lot of children'sministers and youth pastors are
overworked and have a lot ontheir plates and, um, you're
talking about like a reallyreally highly collaborative
environment, which I think isreally cool.
(28:11):
I think there are a lot ofyouth pastors in you know, maybe
smaller contexts or whatever.
It's like I have so much stuffon my plate and the children's
pastor at the same church isthinking I have so much stuff on
my plate and the children'spastor at the same church is
thinking I have so much stuff onmy plate and this all feels
like extra work.
You know what I mean.
(28:33):
It's like okay, now I have todedicate all of this mental
space to figuring out how tocollaborate really well for this
transition time or whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Is that something you ran into, or was everybody
really like open-handed andgreat about it, or Well, just
like any change, there's peoplethat are like, yes, wahoo, which
I would say is typical for ayouth pastor personality, right,
like, not all of them.
But and then because of thescale of what kids pastors have
(29:07):
to manage weekly, which is justquite frankly larger and
different and more complex, theages, I mean, the needs of a
baby with a diaper are waydifferent than the needs of a
fifth grader.
So, because of the complexitiesof what they manage, I think
for kids pastors it might'vebeen more overwhelming, but not
(29:27):
in a way where they wereresistant to change, I think.
For me, I approached it likeany change, where it was like
what is the problem we're tryingto solve and is this a burden
you're carrying?
And then, if that is true,people usually want to get on
board to change it and will dowhat they need to to carve out
time in their week.
The other thing I would say toois I think all of this was in
(29:50):
the spirit of wanting to worksmarter, not harder, and that
sounds cliche, probably, butit's like if you and your kids
pastor are sharing a parentstrategy, guess what that means?
You're probably going to dohalf the work that you've been
doing Like cause, if you guyscan map out.
Okay, here's our yearlycommunication strategy for
parents.
I'll do the youth one, you dothe kids one.
You know, but you're learningfrom each other, you're
(30:13):
borrowing templates or languageor you know all those things.
You're just sharing the workinstead of adding more work.
Now, there, there are ways todo it.
That would make it morecomplicated for you, for sure,
but I think if you go in withthe posture of like, I have a
lot to gain from working with mykids pastor, my youth pastor,
you guys can do a lot of goodtogether.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah, okay.
So I live up here all the time.
John is like the king ofstrategic thinking, number one
strategy guy, super practical.
No, that's true, john, don'tsay no to me.
So I'm interested in what'sgoing through your head right
now.
What are the thoughts, what arethe questions?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I totally agree with what he is saying.
It seems like it may be onework, but it's not.
The fact that you have peoplewho are great at I mean, her
sign up for camp process is aperfect template.
There are people who know howto do the process and people who
know how to make it fun, andwhen you put the two of them
together, you're going to comeup with a better end result and
(31:20):
experience for all the parties.
There's a lot of those kind ofthings that most I'll speak in
generalities too.
Most youth teams and children'steams don't work together
because of something that'shappened in the past or because
of a big personality conflict?
Yeah, one of those two reasons.
So for that reason we don'twork together when in reality
(31:41):
some of what we can do is be agreat example of conflict
resolution on our teams andfigure out what's the best way
for us to serve the whole familyand creating continuity in
communication.
Registration, all check-in, allthose processes just make sense
in the world.
No one wants to do threedifferent types of check-in
through the same church, even ifthey switch age groups.
(32:02):
No one wants to do that.
That's not as a parent.
No, I'm tired of registeringdifferent ways.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Well, and I think what you you've just hit on it,
john, in that the hardest partof all of this is the people
stuff.
Right, it's not necessarily thestrategy or the execution, but
it's everyone coming to thetable.
Um, a book that was veryhelpful for me in all of this
was no ego by cy wakeman.
(32:32):
Um, I don't know if you guyshave read that, but there's a
lot in there of just like how,if everybody comes to the table
with wanting the thing to bebetter and letting go of your
pride, what you've held onto sodearly, then you can work toward
the good of the whole family.
So, with sixth grade, forexample, like there could have
(32:53):
been people that said, well, whydo we need to make a change?
It's amazing in kids.
Like, what are you saying bythis?
Or there could have been youthpastors that said, well, why do
we need to add them to youth?
Like, what are you saying?
We can't get seven.
You know all those egoquestions that come up when you
start a change and honestly, I'mjust really really proud of
(33:14):
both of our teams because inthat and some other changes
we're talking through, peoplereally have come to the table
with we want this to be better.
We want parents to know Jesus,to fall in love with the church
and for their kids to do thesame.
So what is holding familiesback from that right now?
(33:34):
And let's knock those barriersdown.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's good stuff.
So, with the people stuff,cause this is really fascinating
to me.
It's like you've got to and Idon't it's hard to like engage
in this conversation in a verypublic forum, cause it's like I
want to ask very specificquestions but I don't want you
to like you know I'm not askingyou to throw anybody on your
(34:01):
team under the bus or anythinglike that but I am curious, like
how do you?
Because, john's right, allthese people have histories
together, like these are peoplethat have have worked together
on various things and been inthe same offices, and sometimes
those relationships are greatand sometimes those
(34:21):
relationships are not great.
So, like what are those tenantsthat you try to keep like right
at the front of everybody's?
Like you're talking about thething?
What is the thing?
You know what I mean?
What is the unifying forcebehind all of that that
everyone's kind of marchingtoward at Trader's Point?
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Well, I think I'll just back up.
So, assuming that the people onthe other end of this are
either in youth ministry oraround youth ministry, I think
one of the things that was I hadagainst me sort of from the
beginning was that it was soclear as day that I was a youth
person.
Like I yeah, even when Istarted my role, I still
(35:07):
continued to oversee the youthteam.
Um, so I was a little bit in adual role and so nobody was
confused about like where mypassion lied Right, which then,
naturally, is going to makepeople skeptical of like what
could she know, possibly, aboutkids ministry?
How could she possibly help uswith?
Speaker 1 (35:24):
anything, she's always going to act in the
primary interest of thestudent's team and not of the
kid's team, right?
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, yes.
So a lot of it was tellingmyself like I don't need to
prove myself, but I do need togo in very curious and admitting
what I don't know and admittingwhat I don't know.
And so I really did feel like Iwas on a curiosity tour for
three months of just learningeverything I possibly could.
For me and the way that I leadthat meant that I needed to
(35:54):
serve in all of the environmentsto really know what it looks
like to be a kid's pastor on aweekly basis and very quickly I
learned I know very little andthat was incredibly helpful.
I started hosting in our fourththrough sixth grade environment
in elementary and that was veryeye-opening of just again.
(36:16):
I have been used to a youthcontext where we're putting on
one service per week.
Maybe there's middle school andhigh school in some
environments.
There's a lot of small groups,there's a lot of different
things, but a kids pastor is,even in a small context, way
more complicated of a justweekly rhythm and so right away
just made me very humble, like Ihope, of just admitting what I
(36:42):
don't know.
And so I would say for theyouth pastors or leaders who are
either stepping into a rolewhere you're overseeing all of
those areas or you're justseeking to collaborate as peers
go in, assuming you know verylittle and you have a ton to
learn.
I think that's where I've mademistakes in the past.
(37:03):
Thankfully I'd made enough ofthose before I got into this
role to know better.
But just going in knowing Ihave so much to learn about this
and I can't wait to be taught.
Um, and then I changed my mindas time went on, about things
that maybe I had assumed ordidn't know, about things that
(37:24):
maybe I had assumed or didn'tknow.
So, yeah, I mean the peoplestuff is where it all both is
the hardest but also the best,because really I just believe so
deeply in like, when everybodycan bring their gifts to the
table, everybody wins.
And so I mean, even as we werethinking through sixth grade, we
(37:44):
did it as a whole next gen teamand we broke up into teams with
kids and youth on each thingand just said, okay, we launched
with an event of like sixthgrade at Trader's Point and we
could have so easily I couldhave gone off in my office
somewhere, designed that eventand just said this is what we're
going to do, everybody, but Iknew they're the ones that are
going to have to believe in this.
So we got to come up with thistogether and they're going to
(38:06):
have to work on it together.
So we designed the event inreal time together as kids and
youth pastors.
Kids pastors offered uniqueperspective youth pastors needed
, and vice versa, and then theyexecuted that together.
So they both were the publicface of it.
They both had speaking roles attheir campuses.
Similarly, we're doing SuperStart together this year as kids
(38:29):
and youth teams, and so samesame like.
I went in assuming this is whatthis should probably look like,
and so, instead of saying that,I asked okay, we're going to
approach superstar a little bitdifferently.
We've grown, our team has grownand, unsurprisingly, the kids
team had so much to offer thatwe changed.
(38:50):
I mean, I we aren't doinganything that I thought we
should do, to be clear, but Ihave a question.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
I have a question Did Superstar used to live in kids,
or students Kids?
They used to live in kids, sonow it's like a more
collaborative Got it, got it,got it.
Okay, go ahead Continue.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Well, no.
So yeah, I lived in kids andthis year our kids and youth
pastors will oversee it togetherat their campus, which again,
I'm in a multi-site context.
But I think same is true ifyou're in a one campus, like
church model of is there someonethat's taking the primary lead
and is there a way that you guyscan share ownership of that?
That makes it messier withdecision-making.
(39:27):
Right, you got to battle thingsout sometimes if one of you has
a preference towards something,but I think sometimes we go too
easy to oh no, that should justbe in kids to make the people
stuff easier.
Instead of like what is bestfor the sixth grader, the best
thing for the sixth grader andthe parent is for them to see
the name and face they see everyweek.
That makes them feelcomfortable and familiar fourth
(39:48):
through sixth grade, which istheir kid's pastor, and for the
incoming into youth to see theperson that they're going to be
led by in the youth pastor, andfor the parents to get to know
both at the same time okay.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
So it sounds like uh, a a like a huge part of your
role in this first year and Iapologize if I'm
mischaracterizing this you tellme is kind of fostering trust
between kids, students, uh, uh,in in yourself, with each other,
(40:30):
all of these things, um, whichI think is a really, really cool
thing.
But I want to circle back tosomething that you said, which
is you were talking about kindof a I'm going to call it a
perception issue, where it'slike, oh, ann is the student's
pastor, so she is going to be inthis made up world where kids
(40:51):
and students are against eachother.
She is going to be on the sideof the of the students team,
right, and it's like I'm curioushow you dispel that.
You know what I mean.
Like you talked about listeninga lot and everything, but if
somebody has that in their mindthat like we do it this way and
(41:16):
they are going to come andimpose their way on us, then
you're automatically so at leastone party is in like a
defensive posture in thatsituation.
You know what I mean.
So I'm imagining, like even ata smaller church, there's one
student pastor and one kid, onekid's pastor, and the student
pastor is really bought intothis and has to go approach the
(41:38):
children's pastor and say, hey,how do we work together in order
to make this better.
That conversation could beperceived as like oh well, this
person thinks that I'm bad at myjob and that they need to come
in and, you know, help me, orwhatever it is so like, how does
(41:59):
all of that?
What's the right way toapproach that conversation and
navigate those things?
And I know you kind of said that, but I want to really dig into
that because that in my mind, ifI'm like imagining how I would
react in these situations, Ifeel like those first weeks
would be like the hardest partof trying to like make something
(42:19):
happen and get the ball rollingand get people like bought into
something like what you'retrying to do.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
For sure.
Well, I think, yeah, there's alot that I could say.
I think one of the easiest waysto begin working together is to
work together, and so, woohoo,I'm so smart.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
You are so smart.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
I know.
But instead of theorizing like,hey, what if we, you know, in
some, yeah, ethereal dream thatmight not be able, it's like hey
, sixth grade, we got to.
Hey, sixth grade, we gotta fixsixth grade.
Like, I think, by bringingvision and strategy down to real
, practical examples.
It forced us to work togetherand the mission was too
(43:04):
important that we didn't havetime for the emotional waste of
all the like.
Oh, this person stepping on myis like um, that was one of the
and I didn't use that phrase alot because it can sound kind of
offensive but Cy Wakeman.
So she actually studies likehealthcare industries, so it's
not about ministry at all, butshe found that a lot of
(43:26):
companies are spending I thinkit was like almost 30% of their
time work-wise and emotionalwaste.
And as soon as I saw that, Iwas like and which is all ego
driven, uh, this person can'ttell me what to do.
This person doesn't know, orwhy don't?
Why isn't my voice matter?
Like all that stuff Right andmuch more eloquent if you just
read the book yourself.
(43:46):
But, um, I just really quicklywas like how can we make sure
that the mission is so importantthat we don't have time for
that we don't have time to spendin that land of like we've got
by August to make some decisions.
And then, similarly withSuperstart, it's like we need to
(44:09):
be ready by December to executea different play.
So let's work together and then, as those one-on-one
conversations pop up and I thinkpart of that is just creating a
really safe environment wherepeople know that you're for them
and then checking in.
But honestly, whether I liked itor not, trust for some people
was built really easily and thenfor some it had to be proven
(44:31):
over time and I'm just seeingthat I was for both, that I
cared just as much whensomething went wrong in kids
that impacted all of them as Idid in youth.
So some of that was just provenaction and interaction over
time and being really mindfulthat every time I made a
(44:51):
decision that would impact kidsor that I missed things.
Because there were a couple ofthings I missed because I wasn't
thinking.
Like we were in the middle of abuilding project and I got
asked.
Well, long story short, someonemade a decision that impacted
doors and nursery hallways.
I won't bore you with thedetails, but I heard that in a
(45:13):
meeting and was like that seemsnot right, but I don't know.
Well, it turns out it was verywrong and so it impacted the
kids team and the kids person atthat campus a ton and I had to
go back around and say I amreally sorry, I really messed
that up because I did not knowthe importance of that.
And then, from there on out, Iactually took myself out of a
(45:37):
meeting that where thosedecisions were made, cause I was
like I'm the leastknowledgeable.
We need a kids operationsperson in that room, not me.
So, yeah, we changed somethings around to make sure that
I stopped.
I didn't make mistakes, andagain, that comes from.
I'm not trying to make myselfthe hero of this, but it's like
if my ego would have driven me,I would have been prone to cover
(45:59):
up my mistake to make sureeverybody knew that I was just
as knowledgeable about kids as Iwas, you know.
And it's like the truth is isthat I'm not, and so I need
smarter people around me to helpme know what I don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I love it.
You keep talking about sixthgrade.
I want to talk about sixthgrade Cause I love the idea of
just like you're like hey, don'tdream about it, just do it,
just work together.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
And you've referenced this this, but while you dream,
do the work.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Yeah, fair enough.
So sixth grade is a hard time.
I feel like every church putsit in a different.
Like some churches sixth gradeis kids ministry, some churches
sixth grade is, uh, middleschool ministry.
And you know like even withsuperstar, we deal with this.
Like it feels like every churchhas a different rule about who
(46:54):
they bring to superstar.
Like some just bring theirsixth graders, some just bring
their fourth and fifth graders,some bring fourth, fifth and
sixth.
Like it's just kind of like allover the map where that you
refer to them as like they weregetting lost, that lost age
group falls.
So I think as like a case studyon this idea of next gen
ministry, uh, it's really apt ofyou to to continue to bring up
(47:17):
that that kind of sixth gradeyear.
So how have and you may, Idon't know, you're only a year
in, right, but like, have youbeen able to see any wins in
that yet?
Has there been any reallyencouraging stuff come out of
that yet for you?
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Has there been any really encouraging stuff come
out of that yet for you?
Yeah, I'm looking for theactual stats right now so that I
don't make stuff up, but therewas something like I'm going to
go lower so that I don'texaggerate at least 20% of an
increase in sixth grade onSunday mornings than the year
before.
Part of that.
(47:55):
I mean, there's a lot ofdifferent layers to that.
Our kids team has worked a tonon making sure that experience
is amazing and they've added aton to that.
But then also it got a ton ofattention and we talk about the
other in each environment, right.
So it's like at midweek, whichis our Wednesday night youth
(48:16):
environment, we make sure tolike talk at a campus level to
each other, kids and youthpastors working together to
encourage and invite the one tothe other.
So, yeah, attendance increasedfor sure.
But then I would say what itdid anecdotally and what I think
will pay off for years to come,is that it made.
(48:40):
It's a permanent thing thatmakes youth and kids have to be
very aware of each other andmindful of each other and work
hard together, because it's likewe share this grade.
Now you know, and um again,that doesn't practically work in
every context.
I know that, but I do think ifthere are things that kids and
youth I mean, there are so manyopportunities for you to share
(49:02):
events, so, like right now, oneof the things that we're talking
about is doing a parent andtechnology event at our campuses
, and before so it came up inyouth, but we know it's a
relevant conversation in kids,right?
It's like every parent isthinking about technology,
whether it's when should I allowmy preschooler to watch a movie
for the first time?
(49:23):
When should I give my kid aphone?
You know it's like every parentis thinking about that, and so
we could just do that in youthand talk about smartphones, or
we could do that with both.
So we're going to do that inyouth and talk about smartphones
, or we could do that with both,um, so we're going to do that
with both.
That is going to mean it willprobably take longer to decide
what we're going to do.
That means it'll add a few morelayers of complication, I'm
(49:45):
sure, and it will be so muchbetter and more effective for
our parents to know like we arethinking about the things that
you're thinking about, and wewant to help be a resource for
you that you can trust.
Um, I don't know if thatanswers your question, but it.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Uh, it did, I love it , yeah, I love it.
Um, hey, we've been chatting along time and I feel like, uh,
this conversation has kind ofmade my brain motion some ways,
because you're so smart and haveso many great things to say.
So I want to kind of wind itdown just a little bit.
(50:21):
I have one more question.
I'm curious, john, how are youfeeling?
You got anything?
You've been quiet over there.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
You have any questions for Ann?
Questions for Ann.
Speaker 4 (50:34):
Yeah, anne, I do have questions, oh here we go, john,
if you have a question can youpull?
That mic closer.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
So let's pretend that I'm working at Trader's Point
and I'm a children's pastor.
Let's pretend I'm a children'spastor, yeah, and I've been
there for a real long time.
I crush it.
I got a good system.
I got a good system.
I got a good rhythm.
I do the same thing every year.
You know kind of been doing itfor a while.
This works real well.
You want to bring in a newjunior high high school people
(51:04):
and have me work on things withthem?
Tell me, help me understand whyI should listen to them.
What's that?
What is that Hoorah moment youcreate for that team that says I
know what you do is good, butif, if, we can do this together,
it's better.
Help me have that conversation,yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
I think the first thing I would do if I was that
youth pastor is to make surethat I was serving in kids
ministry so that, before I askedthem to be a part of anything I
wanted to do, I was a part oftheir world, and then vice versa
.
I think the first thing I wouldask that kids pastor to be a
part of would be something easylike check in at a youth event.
(51:45):
Right, it's like, hey, I couldreally use your brain and your
help in this smaller thing andthen I would follow up with them
of what did you notice?
What are things that stood outto you?
And very quickly.
I mean, a person like that, whohas that much tenure, is going
to be very thoughtful in thefeedback they have from you.
Everything from you had noallergy friendly options to this
(52:06):
.
You know, building was an ADAcompliant to.
Hey, I felt like you could havesomething more tangible in your
teach moment that actuallyhelped kids stay engaged.
I would learn from them firstand all the things that they
have to offer, before I wouldsay I need you to do this a
different way, and then I wouldsay, hey, I've been thinking a
ton about this thing.
That feels, from my perspective, like it could be better,
(52:29):
because it was again.
It wasn't like sixth grade wasbroken, right, we weren't going
to anybody and saying you'redoing a bad job, that wasn't
true.
It was just like we know thiscan be better, we know Superstar
can be better and it would bebetter if we had the way that
you think and the way that youdo what you do a part of it.
I mean, I think one of the mostpowerful and this is such a
(52:52):
small thing, but it's big is,over the last year, just being
more mindful, both of us that weare serving in each other's
spaces and so, like, at ourPlainfield campus, our kids
pastor serves in the guestexperience team, basically at
our youth every Wednesday night,and so for parents, I mean
that's huge.
When a sixth grade, seventhgrade parent comes to drop off
(53:15):
their kid, they see Danielle,they know Danielle.
At the same time, danielle canoffer the youth pastor, ryan,
feedback that he really, reallyneeds.
And then vice versa, he servedat Superstar, he went to kids
camp.
So like they became a teambecause they were also working
at each other's spaces andactually doing the hard stuff I
don't think anybody wants tohear from like an ivory tower on
(53:36):
high right.
It's like you want to hear fromsomebody who's been in it with
you, and that's what I wouldencourage.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
I love that.
I love that and I think that isa lovely note to end on.
You use the word mindful quitea bit and I was hoping you would
drop a demure in theresomewhere.
I know that that's over.
I know that we've moved on fromthat, but yeah, no, it's over,
(54:04):
but I still wanted it to happenand I can't explain it.
Speaker 3 (54:07):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
It's okay, I don't even know what that word means
and you're wonderful.
Thank you for being on ourboard, thank you for being an
excellent next-gen pastor andthank you for being with us
today.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
Thank you guys.
Thanks for even beginning theconversation.
I think it's a really importantone for youth pastors to have,
and I do have a lot of regretsabout the ways I did youth
ministry in the beginning, butone of the biggest ones was that
I didn't honestly like tap intothe children's pastor more.
She could have helped me in alot more ways than I even knew,
(54:41):
so yeah, that's a great.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
That's a great.
If there's one thought to kindof take away from this
conversation, I feel like thatmight be it that we work
together, we're better together,right?
Thanks so much, Anne,appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
Thank you guys, and I feel like that might be it that
we work together, we're bettertogether, right?
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Uh, thanks a bunch and appreciate you.
Thank you guys.
Um, I'm super, super gratefulfor Ann and all of the the wise,
wise, wise things that that shesaid.
And you know what wise, wise,wise things that she said.
And you know what, john.
(55:23):
Mr Practical, I'm not as in theweeds on the practical stuff as
you are.
You love being practical.
What's the number one thingthat Ann said that you're like
yes, if everybody did this, itwould be a step in the right
direction.
Help each other out, help eachother out.
Volunteer in kids ministry.
Just a little bit, just alittle bit.
(55:44):
Yeah, oh, I love that.
Yeah, serve, that's a good,it's a good step forward.
It was a good conversation,john, appreciate you being here.
I'm going to ask that you closeout our time together by
reading our blessing over ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
Awesome.
Our prayer today is may Godshow you grace and bless you.
May he make his face shine onyou.
May you experience the love ofChrist, through whom God gives
you the fullness of life.
May you experience the love ofChrist, through whom God gives
you the fullness of life.
May you be strengthened by hispower.
May Christ himself make hishome in your heart, that you
(56:20):
would be full of his love andgrace and that those you serve
would see Jesus in you today'sepisode was produced by Michael
Hester, Warren Bryan and myself.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
I want to give another huge thank you to Ann
Wilson for being with us today.
Thanks to John for being withus today.
Be sure to tune back in in acouple of weeks.
I don't remember what we'redoing in a couple of weeks, but
we'll have an episode and it'sgoing to be great.
Hope that your Christmas andNew Year's festivities with your
families were wonderful.
This has been a great start to2025 with you guys.
(56:56):
Be sure to subscribe whereveryou listen to podcasts and you
know you can reach out to us onthe Facebook group, the CYY
Community Facebook group, or byemail at podcast at CYYcom.
We'll see you next time.
Hello, I am Brad Warren.
This is Beyond the Event, ayouth ministry podcast presented
by Christ in Youth, where wehelp you maintain momentum
between the mountaintops.
Last week we got to talk toJohn Lee about NextGen ministry,
which was super fun with LaneMoss.
This week we're getting anotherperspective on NextGen ministry
.
We're going to chat with AnneWilson.
(00:26):
She's the next-gen pastor atTraders Point Christian Church
in Indianapolis and, fun fact, amember of the board here at CIY
.
We love Anne.
You might have seen her out onthe road speaking at one of our
events.
She's spoken for MOVE for many,many years and does a wonderful
job.
Moral of the story we love Anne.
I'm very excited for you tohear from her about her new
(00:49):
adventure in next-gen ministry.
But first we get to chat withCIY's Vice President of
Experience, john Luzader.
John, for the first time ever,welcome to Beyond the Event.
Thanks, brad.
Oh my gosh, I'm so happy thatyou're here.
I've tried to make this happenliterally for years and you are
the busiest person at 2201 NorthMain Street in Joppa, missouri.
(01:13):
That's not true.
That is actually 100% true.
You are always on the phone.
You're always pacing, talkingon the phone, or you're in
Phoenix, or you're in a meetingor whatever.
Everybody loves john and wantsto hear what john has to say.
That's a true fact.
Um, so what does it mean thatyou're the vice president?
Because I know what it means,but like what does it mean?
(01:33):
What is the vice presidentexperience?
What is that?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
that's a good question.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I asked myself that some days because you were the
vice president of culture, I was, and then they, and then we
split, split that out thenthere's someone way better
suited for culture than mejennifer deardorff.
We love her.
She crushes it.
She crushes it.
Uh, what do you?
What do you?
What do you do here?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I work on the team of people who lead out in each of
our programs, so there's oneperson who kind of oversees the
delivery of Superstar, Move, Mix, Engage and then our digital
resources.
The people who have thoseresponsibilities are the team
that I work with.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
All of those people have been on the show before
Lane Moss, Caleb DeRoyne,Caitlin Adams, Corey Klein,
Brittany Shoemake, John Luzattersit around a table together and
help figure out how to makegreat experiences for youth
pastors and for students.
That's us, that's you, and youdo a wonderful job at it, if I
do say so myself.
Thanks, Brad.
Okay, we're talking aboutnext-gen ministry today.
(02:39):
You have some next-gen peoplethat live in your house.
I do Little meatheads as youcall them.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I do call them that pretty often, you're meatheads,
all boys.
I have a freshman in highschool, junior in high school
and a freshman in college.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
That's crazy.
It sounds like a lot.
So what do you think aboutnext-gen ministry?
Why is that important to JohnLuzetter, dad of three boys?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Super great question.
Uh, I've been a youth pastormost of my life Um is that true?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
You, you were a youth pastor longer than you worked
here.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Hmm, we just passed that threshold.
Just.
Oh, wow, that's crazy.
Okay, so, um, love, um love.
Youth ministry, love, love, uh,I'm a little bit more geared
towards high school students andjunior high students Probably
it's probably the safest way tosay that.
Uh, I know how to have fun andbe crazy.
Uh, also don't mind havingserious conversations, and so
(03:35):
have enjoyed all that kind ofstuff.
Been at CY now for uh 16.
We're going working towards, uh, longer than that.
Uh, love what we do here.
Uh, we're working towardslonger than that, love what we
do here.
Been a dad for 19 of thoseyears, which is kind of crazy.
And I will tell you, learn morelessons about youth ministry
being a dad than probably beinga youth pastor, which is weird.
(03:56):
Next-gen ministry figuring outhow to have some kind of
continuity between all of yourpeople on that next-gen team
from a parent's perspective issuper, super helpful.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
How come, how does it change your life if all of
those guys are on the same page?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
It makes my life way easier.
I'll just tell you this as ayouth pastor you want to tell
your kids about Jesus and youwant to connect with their
friends and you want them toexperience God in ways that
shape their heart.
There's no doubt about that.
But when you're done thatevening they go home and guess
where they go?
They go to my house and for thenext six days, as a parent, I'm
(04:38):
trying to figure out how tohave spiritual conversations,
how to help them make sense ofthe world, the crazy world that
they live in, whether that's atschool or in sports or whether
that's in our own home, how tomitigate being a high school boy
man making decisions that maybe different than everybody else
(04:59):
.
And as a parent, sometimes thoseconversations just are hard.
You don't know how to have them.
You don't know if you know theright answer.
You don't know how to have them.
You don't know if you know theright answer.
You don't know if yourpersonality is the same as their
personality and what you'regoing to say is going to
resonate with them.
And there's a lot of those kindof hurdles in the world of
being a parent of a studentwho's trying to figure out how
to follow Jesus and having achurch that supports you and
(05:21):
helps you and equips you andgives you questions to ask when
you don't know the rightquestions or gives you things to
say when you don't know theright things Super, super
helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
From the day that they're born until the time they
graduate high school.
Having an ally in the church isjust super important.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I'd extend that until the time they get on their own
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
We're in a new world.
The Blues Adders are a newchapter with the college college
thing, and it's not as easy asit looked when I was a youth
pastor, that is for sure.
But you said a very interestingthing there, which is, um, I
don't know, this was a littleclause you had in there.
I don't know if they have thesame personality as me or not
sure you have a uniquepersonality.
(06:02):
You were raised by a man who wasa Marine right, that's true.
Yeah, so military household.
We love John so much.
You're so great.
I'm curious which of your boysis the most like you?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh, my youngest.
Yeah, mm-hmm, personality-wise,for sure, my oldest is similar
to him, like he's reallyperceptive.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
He can kind of no.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
No, his personality as a 14-year-old is very similar
to mine when I was a14-year-old there are some
things that stick with you asyou get a little bit older.
But for sure and he is superresponsible he is pretty
perceptive, more than otherpeople.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah, the thing I respect about you is you can
kind of like sit in the cornerof the room and no one knows
you're there, but you're payingattention to everything.
And then you drop a question ora comment and it's like, oh,
john's here and also he justchanged my life with that thing
that he said.
Is that your 14 year old?
I'm not sure that's me.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
But, uh, that is you, michael me, but he's getting
there.
That is you.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Michael, is that John ?
He's getting there.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
I would say that that is a pretty fun description
that lines up with a lot of myexperience Great.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So let's say that's my personality.
Let's say I've got a kid who'sdifferent than me, so way more
in tune with feelings, way morein tune and and the give and
take that goes from thoseinteractions.
So, as a parent, how do I have ahard conversation or a shaping
(07:33):
conversation with a personalitythat's different than me about
spiritual things?
Because, as a dad, spiritualthings matter to me and I want
them to matter to my kids.
Yeah, yeah, that's what thechurch the church could be a
gigantic resource for parents inthat kind of a way, just to
simply say, hey, john, we knowyou're a knucklehead sometimes,
(07:54):
but you got to talk to your kidabout this.
Here's some tools to help youdo that.
Tremendous, it's a game changer.
I love what happens on sundaynight at youth group or
wednesday night youth group is abig deal.
But, as a parent, having toolsand resources that help my life
the other six days of the of theweek but, like I said, total
(08:17):
game changer yeah, well, we'llget into all of that with ann
and I'm excited to hear what shehas to say about all of that.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Into all of that with Anne, and I'm excited to hear
what she has to say about all ofthat.
But first, john, we have atradition here on Beyond the
Event it's called the mailbag,where we answer questions, the
student, pastors, the peoplethey want to know, you know, and
we give the people what theywant.
So, michael, take it away.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
So, brad, in the Facebook group you posted a
picture with mailman tim I didand matt tibbett said the
mailman tim pic got me hyped,only to let me down, bradley
sorry, matt further down thecomment section, ryan bennett
also added that we should tryand get tim onto the podcast
(09:02):
sometime to catch up with himand see what he's been up to.
I think those are fun ideas,but this makes me think of a
question that I don't know hasbeen asked.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
So this is a mailbag question from Michael.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
From me.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Oh fun.
Thanks for writing in, michael.
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
Which Tim is your favorite?
Tim, oh man, caveman, I wasalso thinking about Caveman Tim.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I think who was the first?
Was Spaceman the first?
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Spaceman was very early on.
So Spaceman Tim was my freshmanyear of high school, I think.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Okay, so I think he might have been.
Did we do Mailman then Spaceman, or did we do Space man then
Mailman?
I can't remember Space man forme.
I don't remember Space man wasfun.
Space man was very fun Becausehe did the interlude dance too,
space man was very fun.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
In outer space space man.
I'm sticking with caveman.
Um, I feel like that was alater rendition where they were
like he's had some careers.
Now let's put him in another.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
You know, time, it's all it's it's almost like we ran
out of ideas for, like jobs uh,that have the word man in it,
and we just had to come up withsomething else yeah, I also, you
know, like I, after I graduatedhigh school, I didn't get to go
to move for several years, andthen 2017 was when we had
(10:32):
caveman tim and I was an eventstaff for engage.
was that one week of move in themiddle of the summer?
Um, and as someone that was alittle more advanced in years
than when I was in high school,I was able to appreciate, um,
the, the 10 characters, in a waythat I don't think I knew how
to appreciate when I was astudent.
(10:52):
He was the best man.
Caveman Tim was a fun one, butI'm pretty sure I I really think
spaceman Tim was was myfreshman year, so that's one of
the ones that I that I rememberthe most quickly.
Yeah, tim was great to work withall those years, all those
years, all those years, and wemiss him.
So we have a question from MattBerry.
(11:12):
Again, thank you, matt, for allof your questions.
It's like reading a book wemight publish it and Matt wants
to know what do you wish youwould have known or heard about
leadership when you were younger, and what should we be telling
our students now?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So the question really is when I was younger,
back in high school or middleschool?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
that's the question that he's asking yeah, when you
were in student ministry.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Or maybe even when you first started out in a
leadership role.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Hmm, first started out in a leadership role.
Hmm, I will let me say this, letme go with um when I was in
high school.
Okay, I wish I would have known.
Uh, I wish I would have learnedto ask better questions.
Be a little more curious.
Whatever you want to go, tedlasso's version be a little more
curious.
Curious, um, and just askingpeople that I've respected
(12:08):
better questions.
I think I think I was a prettyobservant kid.
Well, I'm one of those peoplewho learns.
You know, if I watch you andyou fail, I'll be like, oh,
don't do that, you know.
Or if I watch you and yousucceed, I'm like, oh, maybe I
should, yeah try that, let's dothat.
I've been one of those kind ofpeople and probably did a little
bit too much of that, justobserving and not necessarily
(12:29):
asking great questions,specifically in high school,
middle school, when it comes tohey, why'd you make that
decision?
Or hey, why'd you have thatconversation, you know, I think
that I think that would havebeen a little.
That's super helpful to learnfrom people who've already made
mistakes or celebrated big,gigantic wins.
Ask great questions.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
We've never talked about this before, but I'm going
to talk about it with you rightnow.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
When I was an intern at Journey Christian Church in
Greeley Colorado um, it was thespaceman Tim year, because I
later dressed up as spacemanBrad and filmed some follow up
videos.
Uh so, but we went to Colorado.
(13:27):
Did you ever direct Colorado?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
we went to.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Colorado.
You were the director and theguy that I work for.
Terry Davis said John is one ofthe best leaders that you'll
ever meet and you need to askhim a bunch of questions.
And he set up a lunch and wesat down at lunch in Durango,
colorado, and I need to ask hima bunch of questions.
And he set up a lunch and wesat down at lunch in Durango,
colorado, and I got to just likepick your brain about a bunch
(13:50):
of stuff and I took notes.
I don't know where that journalis but it's like I remember
being like what do I ask?
I don't know, you know like,but that is such a good skill,
Just not you know like, knowingwhat to ask and asking people
who are ahead of you and, um,cause, I didn't know to do that
and I didn't know how to do that, but he, Terry, pushed me to do
that, which I'm thankful for.
(14:11):
But yeah, you probably don'tremember that.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Maybe I do, I don't know yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Anyway, that that's funny the way you said reminded
me of that, though I haven'tthought about that in years.
So that's funny the way yousaid reminded me of that, though
I haven't thought about that inyears.
Great advice, though Good stuff.
You ready to go talk to Ann?
Yeah, Okay, let's go talk toAnn.
Ann Wilson welcome back toBeyond the Event.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
So happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Welcome back.
The last time that you werehere was a long time ago.
I feel like we talked aboutmental health.
It was a great, great, great,great conversation.
We're going to do a differentthing today.
How are you?
You doing good.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Doing great.
Christmas time is here.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Christmas time is here in this life, in the life
where people are listening tothis.
It is 2025.
The Christmas trees are away.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
It was doing wonderful.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So we're going to have to vibe check that a little
bit, but that's okay, that'sall right.
I feel like the listenersdeserve to know.
You were just in Joplin.
You were just here at our boardmeeting.
You're a member of our boardand you were so busy that we
were not able to make thishappen while you were literally
in the same city as us.
So here we are, on zoom makingit happen, talking about next
(15:35):
gen ministry.
It's going to be so fun, okay.
So the setup to this is youwere um over the student
ministry at Trader's PointChristian Church.
Going back to when.
When did that?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
start.
Let's see.
I've been at Trader's Pointalmost 12 years.
The first five years I was inour marketing communications
team and before coming toTrader's Point I was a youth
pastor.
So, I'll just say I had a superlinear career, but then in 2018
, I joined our students team andin 2019, I stepped into the
(16:12):
lead role.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Okay, so I've been leading the students team since
2019, and at Trader's Point I'mgoing to say this and then I
want you to polish it up,correct me, whatever you got to
do.
Like the ministries that wouldtypically fall under like a next
gen or family ministry categorywere kind of like doing their
(16:34):
own things.
Like you had an elementaryministry that was kind of like
functioning on its own studentministry that was kind of
functioning on its own preschool.
Is that right?
Would you say?
That's true.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I would say so.
When we went multi-site in2015,.
I would say the age group thatgot probably the most lost was
preteen, because it went backand forth from students to kids,
and then we learned reallyquickly we needed a lot more
strategy around that, and so itreally did become Trader's Point
(17:07):
kids, which was birth throughsixth grade, and students, which
was seventh through 12th grade.
So, but they were separateteams for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
And then a year ago this is exciting for you,
congratulations you became thenext gen pastor.
This is exciting for you,congratulations you became the
next-gen pastor at Trader'sPoint and now you oversee birth
all the way up through 12thgrade, right?
Yep, that's right, okay.
So I am hoping out of ourconversation today that we can
kind of encourage youth pastors,or primarily people who are
(17:47):
listening to this podcast, thathaving kind of a cohesive
strategy for that entire agegroup is important and that it
does have benefits.
So what was kind of like theroad that led Trader's Point to
going away from the model thatthey were in and then having you
kind of oversee all of thesedifferent things?
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Yeah, well, honestly, a lot of it came from years of
collaboration with Traders PointKids and Traders Point Youth.
That it sort of happened,naturally, where it just made
sense to have one departmentwhere we all worked together,
helped each other.
But I would say for me thatpersonally began even just in my
(18:21):
first ministry.
I was a youth pastor at achurch here in Indianapolis on
the west side of town and thekids pastor at the time wanted
to work with me so much and Iwas just so confused by that.
I was like I'm here with theteenagers, you're there with the
kids, I have nothing to offeryou.
But she had a vision for whatfamily ministry could be that I
(18:47):
didn't yet have.
And working with her for thosefour years really, I think,
prepared me for then when I wentback into students years later,
yeah, having a just knowingwhat was missing because we
weren't together.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
So okay, so what was missing?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
though you know like what was missing I would say a
unified strategy to reachparents.
Um, and then that played into alot of different things that,
honestly, maybe if you werelooking at it from afar,
wouldn't have seemed like, oh,those are way different, like
(19:28):
they're operating totallydifferently.
But if you got sort of in theweeds, we just had different
approaches to the way that wecommunicated with parents, to
the way that we led events, andagain, neither good nor bad, but
because we were working withthe same families right, it's
like needed to be more unifiedand then, in addition to that,
(19:48):
just more proactive in the waysthat we are reaching, resourcing
, helping parents.
The data shows that the churchis probably like the third most
important voice in a youngperson's life, behind parents
and friends, and so often, somuch of our kids ministry
strategy and youth ministrystrategy is around the kids in
(20:11):
front of us and the students infront of us.
But the people we really needto reach the most are the
parents.
And again, nothing wasinherently wrong.
It was just separate and weknew that we could do more
together so, like john, you havethree boys age range 14 to 19
(20:31):
14 to 19, been a part of a lotof churches.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
So, um, at different like.
Do you resonate with that atall?
Like, is that something that islike familiar to you, where
it's like oh, I have one kid inchildren's ministry and one kid
in youth ministry and the waysthat I relate to these two
ministries are entirelydifferent, or is that not like,
I don't know?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
for sure.
I think I've never been in an'schurch before, so I don't have
that context, but been inseveral different ones and and
communicating and connectingwith parents is definitely a
struggle for the average youthpastor.
The older you get, the more ofa reality it is.
You've got to learn that skill.
When you're young.
(21:17):
You know you're wanting to havefun and attract students and
tell them about Jesus and behonest with them and you know
walk through scripture with themand sometimes sometimes people
discount that maybe, maybe thisis the right way to say that or
just don't see the value ofhaving parents on your team.
But being in a healthyenvironment like Anne's
describing.
Uh for sure, as a parent, we'rein a church that that works
(21:42):
hard at at that and it's beensuper helpful, super beneficial,
just in in as a parent walkingthrough spiritual growth steps
with your kids.
I got three boys.
With my three boys I've beensuper helpful that you can see
the win of a church doing it.
I've had that experience andit's been a very positive one
for us.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So we'll go ahead.
Nope, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I think, just inherently the wiring of a kid's
pastor and a youth pastor.
Now I'm going to speak ingeneralities here, so I know
there are exceptions to this,but they compliment one another
so much and they help each otherso much, and so when they work
separately, it really is totheir own detriment and the
family's detriment that they'renot like helping each other out.
(22:26):
So a real practical example ofthis was when we started doing a
unified process for campcheck-in, which sounds like the
most boring example.
But kids pastors I mean theyhad that on lock.
As far as safety check, bagcheck I mean, the line was so
efficient.
(22:47):
Youth pastors had the vibes downright.
It felt exciting.
When you walked in, you werelike I think this might be the
best week of my life, but youcouldn't say the same vice versa
with the other things.
And so when we this year, thekids and youth team, did that
together and it really wasmagical for lack of a better
word of just I year, the kidsand youth team did that together
and it really was magical, forlack of a better word of just I
mean we had parents being like,wow, I feel like I just went
(23:09):
through the airport in a reallygood way, you know, like of just
a very efficient process thatwas clear kids and youth were
going to be safe, but also feltreally great too, and so I'd say
the same.
I'm in a multi-site context, butI think it's true in a small
church context or one largechurch context of kids and youth
, people have a lot to give eachother and just the way that
(23:33):
they're wired, the way theirbrains think, the way they
operate, that I think has beenmissing at times and in all of
my ministry experiences that'snot just unique to Trader's
Point.
I know I learned so much fromAllison, who was the kid's
pastor at the first church Iserved at, even just about
parent communication, and it hadnot occurred to me to be as
(23:53):
proactive as she was at campwith parent communication.
We worked on that together.
So there's just a lot of thingsI think that can mutually
benefit each other.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
So when you stepped into this role a year ago it's
only been a year brand new,fresh.
What's at the top of the list?
What are the first things thatyou're wanting to get in place
and moving and shaking andtrying to influence this culture
that you're talking about?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Yeah, the first was that we identified we were
losing both kids and youth intransitions, and so when I say
transitions, I just mean thosevulnerable ages where someone is
making a change, and that'soften when parents are thinking
about parenting the most right.
It's like the time when yourkid is going to kindergarten for
(24:41):
the first time, or when youhave a new baby and you bring
them to the nursery for thefirst time, or they're going to
middle school or they'regraduating.
Most parents are reflecting inthose moments on like am I a
good parent?
So not only were we missingthat opportunity to help come
alongside parents, but also weweren't cohesive in the way that
we made sure students were notdropping off kids and youth.
(25:05):
And so really practically thefirst thing that we looked at as
a whole team was that preteenage and asking okay, traders
Point Kids is doing this forpreteens, traders Point Youth,
we're trying to catch preteensin this way.
Our numbers in that age aredwindling, which means real
(25:25):
people are leaving, and inTrader's Point kids those
numbers were dwindling.
It's like how can we meet inthe middle of what could be and
how can we retain that age thatwe know is just really
vulnerable?
Our solution was one thatsurprised all of us, which was
for us and this is for ourcontext we have youth on
(25:47):
Wednesday nights, so we don'tuse the building on Sunday
mornings for youth ministry.
But the solution for us was howabout we invite sixth graders
to both experiences all yearlong to help with the transition
from kids to youth, and thatstarted in August, so that was
kind of the first age we decidedto target.
(26:09):
If you will of like, we need tomake this better.
There will be more in the nextyear or so.
I don't want to say a ton andlike scare my team, no, but
we're really looking at babiesas well.
And then graduated seniors,young adults, those just
vulnerable transitory timeswhere people are, yeah, asking
(26:31):
all kinds of questions.
For new parents, they'reobviously it's like how can we
capture the beauty of the church, even though they're just
dropping them off from thenursery?
Like, how can we tell the storyof what it means for you and
your family to be a part of thischurch family for the next 18
years?
We're missing that right now.
And then for graduated seniors,similarly and this is a tale as
(26:54):
old as time right, it's likethe young adult question
continues to be really hard tofigure out, but that's not an
excuse.
So I'm doing a ton of workthere right now to help make
things better.
So for us, yeah, the first year12 months really I started this
role in August of 2023, but itwas just, yeah, a ton of
(27:14):
discovery around what's notworking, what's going really
well, what do you love aboutwhat you do?
I had one-on-ones with everykid's pastor and just asked them
to come with a story of whatgets you up to do what you do.
What do you love about what youdo and what is really really
hard right now.
And it became really clear fromeven those one-on-ones that
(27:37):
sixth grade was burdening all ofthem because they're seeing
their sixth graders drop off andthen, similarly, with youth
pastors, we're seeing how hardit is to then get them back
after they've dropped off.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
So I think a lot of this is.
This is what that made me thinkof.
I think a lot of children'sministers and youth pastors are
overworked and have a lot ontheir plates and, um, you're
talking about like a reallyreally highly collaborative
environment, which I think isreally cool.
(28:11):
I think there are a lot ofyouth pastors in you know, maybe
smaller contexts or whatever.
It's like I have so much stuffon my plate and the children's
pastor at the same church isthinking I have so much stuff on
my plate and the children'spastor at the same church is
thinking I have so much stuff onmy plate and this all feels
like extra work.
You know what I mean.
(28:33):
It's like okay, now I have todedicate all of this mental
space to figuring out how tocollaborate really well for this
transition time or whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Is that something you ran into, or was everybody
really like open-handed andgreat about it, or Well, just
like any change, there's peoplethat are like, yes, wahoo, which
I would say is typical for ayouth pastor personality, right,
like, not all of them.
But and then because of thescale of what kids pastors have
(29:07):
to manage weekly, which is justquite frankly larger and
different and more complex, theages, I mean, the needs of a
baby with a diaper are waydifferent than the needs of a
fifth grader.
So, because of the complexitiesof what they manage, I think
for kids pastors it might'vebeen more overwhelming, but not
(29:27):
in a way where they wereresistant to change, I think.
For me, I approached it likeany change, where it was like
what is the problem we're tryingto solve and is this a burden
you're carrying?
And then, if that is true,people usually want to get on
board to change it and will dowhat they need to to carve out
time in their week.
The other thing I would say toois I think all of this was in
(29:50):
the spirit of wanting to worksmarter, not harder, and that
sounds cliche, probably, butit's like if you and your kids
pastor are sharing a parentstrategy, guess what that means?
You're probably going to dohalf the work that you've been
doing Like cause, if you guyscan map out.
Okay, here's our yearlycommunication strategy for
parents.
I'll do the youth one, you dothe kids one.
You know, but you're learningfrom each other, you're
(30:13):
borrowing templates or languageor you know all those things.
You're just sharing the workinstead of adding more work.
Now, there, there are ways todo it.
That would make it morecomplicated for you, for sure,
but I think if you go in withthe posture of like, I have a
lot to gain from working with mykids pastor, my youth pastor,
you guys can do a lot of goodtogether.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah, okay.
So I live up here all the time.
John is like the king ofstrategic thinking, number one
strategy guy, super practical.
No, that's true, john, don'tsay no to me.
So I'm interested in what'sgoing through your head right
now.
What are the thoughts, what arethe questions?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I totally agree with what he is saying.
It seems like it may be onework, but it's not.
The fact that you have peoplewho are great at I mean, her
sign up for camp process is aperfect template.
There are people who know howto do the process and people who
know how to make it fun, andwhen you put the two of them
together, you're going to comeup with a better end result and
(31:20):
experience for all the parties.
There's a lot of those kind ofthings that most I'll speak in
generalities too.
Most youth teams and children'steams don't work together
because of something that'shappened in the past or because
of a big personality conflict?
Yeah, one of those two reasons.
So for that reason we don'twork together when in reality
(31:41):
some of what we can do is be agreat example of conflict
resolution on our teams andfigure out what's the best way
for us to serve the whole familyand creating continuity in
communication.
Registration, all check-in, allthose processes just make sense
in the world.
No one wants to do threedifferent types of check-in
through the same church, even ifthey switch age groups.
(32:02):
No one wants to do that.
That's not as a parent.
No, I'm tired of registeringdifferent ways.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Well, and I think what you you've just hit on it,
john, in that the hardest partof all of this is the people
stuff.
Right, it's not necessarily thestrategy or the execution, but
it's everyone coming to thetable.
Um, a book that was veryhelpful for me in all of this
was no ego by cy wakeman.
(32:32):
Um, I don't know if you guyshave read that, but there's a
lot in there of just like how,if everybody comes to the table
with wanting the thing to bebetter and letting go of your
pride, what you've held onto sodearly, then you can work toward
the good of the whole family.
So, with sixth grade, forexample, like there could have
(32:53):
been people that said, well, whydo we need to make a change?
It's amazing in kids.
Like, what are you saying bythis?
Or there could have been youthpastors that said, well, why do
we need to add them to youth?
Like, what are you saying?
We can't get seven.
You know all those egoquestions that come up when you
start a change and honestly, I'mjust really really proud of
(33:14):
both of our teams because inthat and some other changes
we're talking through, peoplereally have come to the table
with we want this to be better.
We want parents to know Jesus,to fall in love with the church
and for their kids to do thesame.
So what is holding familiesback from that right now?
(33:34):
And let's knock those barriersdown.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's good stuff.
So, with the people stuff,cause this is really fascinating
to me.
It's like you've got to and Idon't it's hard to like engage
in this conversation in a verypublic forum, cause it's like I
want to ask very specificquestions but I don't want you
to like you know I'm not askingyou to throw anybody on your
(34:01):
team under the bus or anythinglike that but I am curious, like
how do you?
Because, john's right, allthese people have histories
together, like these are peoplethat have have worked together
on various things and been inthe same offices, and sometimes
those relationships are greatand sometimes those
(34:21):
relationships are not great.
So, like what are those tenantsthat you try to keep like right
at the front of everybody's?
Like you're talking about thething?
What is the thing?
You know what I mean?
What is the unifying forcebehind all of that that
everyone's kind of marchingtoward at Trader's Point?
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Well, I think I'll just back up.
So, assuming that the people onthe other end of this are
either in youth ministry oraround youth ministry, I think
one of the things that was I hadagainst me sort of from the
beginning was that it was soclear as day that I was a youth
person.
Like I yeah, even when Istarted my role, I still
(35:07):
continued to oversee the youthteam.
Um, so I was a little bit in adual role and so nobody was
confused about like where mypassion lied Right, which then,
naturally, is going to makepeople skeptical of like what
could she know, possibly, aboutkids ministry?
How could she possibly help uswith?
Speaker 1 (35:24):
anything, she's always going to act in the
primary interest of thestudent's team and not of the
kid's team, right?
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, yes.
So a lot of it was tellingmyself like I don't need to
prove myself, but I do need togo in very curious and admitting
what I don't know and admittingwhat I don't know.
And so I really did feel like Iwas on a curiosity tour for
three months of just learningeverything I possibly could.
For me and the way that I leadthat meant that I needed to
(35:54):
serve in all of the environmentsto really know what it looks
like to be a kid's pastor on aweekly basis and very quickly I
learned I know very little andthat was incredibly helpful.
I started hosting in our fourththrough sixth grade environment
in elementary and that was veryeye-opening of just again.
(36:16):
I have been used to a youthcontext where we're putting on
one service per week.
Maybe there's middle school andhigh school in some
environments.
There's a lot of small groups,there's a lot of different
things, but a kids pastor is,even in a small context, way
more complicated of a justweekly rhythm and so right away
just made me very humble, like Ihope, of just admitting what I
(36:42):
don't know.
And so I would say for theyouth pastors or leaders who are
either stepping into a rolewhere you're overseeing all of
those areas or you're justseeking to collaborate as peers
go in, assuming you know verylittle and you have a ton to
learn.
I think that's where I've mademistakes in the past.
(37:03):
Thankfully I'd made enough ofthose before I got into this
role to know better.
But just going in knowing Ihave so much to learn about this
and I can't wait to be taught.
Um, and then I changed my mindas time went on, about things
that maybe I had assumed ordidn't know, about things that
(37:24):
maybe I had assumed or didn'tknow.
So, yeah, I mean the peoplestuff is where it all both is
the hardest but also the best,because really I just believe so
deeply in like, when everybodycan bring their gifts to the
table, everybody wins.
And so I mean, even as we werethinking through sixth grade, we
(37:44):
did it as a whole next gen teamand we broke up into teams with
kids and youth on each thingand just said, okay, we launched
with an event of like sixthgrade at Trader's Point and we
could have so easily I couldhave gone off in my office
somewhere, designed that eventand just said this is what we're
going to do, everybody, but Iknew they're the ones that are
going to have to believe in this.
So we got to come up with thistogether and they're going to
(38:06):
have to work on it together.
So we designed the event inreal time together as kids and
youth pastors.
Kids pastors offered uniqueperspective youth pastors needed
, and vice versa, and then theyexecuted that together.
So they both were the publicface of it.
They both had speaking roles attheir campuses.
Similarly, we're doing SuperStart together this year as kids
(38:29):
and youth teams, and so samesame like.
I went in assuming this is whatthis should probably look like,
and so, instead of saying that,I asked okay, we're going to
approach superstar a little bitdifferently.
We've grown, our team has grownand, unsurprisingly, the kids
team had so much to offer thatwe changed.
(38:50):
I mean, I we aren't doinganything that I thought we
should do, to be clear, but Ihave a question.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
I have a question Did Superstar used to live in kids,
or students Kids?
They used to live in kids, sonow it's like a more
collaborative Got it, got it,got it.
Okay, go ahead Continue.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Well, no.
So yeah, I lived in kids andthis year our kids and youth
pastors will oversee it togetherat their campus, which again,
I'm in a multi-site context.
But I think same is true ifyou're in a one campus, like
church model of is there someonethat's taking the primary lead
and is there a way that you guyscan share ownership of that?
That makes it messier withdecision-making.
(39:27):
Right, you got to battle thingsout sometimes if one of you has
a preference towards something,but I think sometimes we go too
easy to oh no, that should justbe in kids to make the people
stuff easier.
Instead of like what is bestfor the sixth grader, the best
thing for the sixth grader andthe parent is for them to see
the name and face they see everyweek.
That makes them feelcomfortable and familiar fourth
(39:48):
through sixth grade, which istheir kid's pastor, and for the
incoming into youth to see theperson that they're going to be
led by in the youth pastor, andfor the parents to get to know
both at the same time okay.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
So it sounds like uh, a a like a huge part of your
role in this first year and Iapologize if I'm
mischaracterizing this you tellme is kind of fostering trust
between kids, students, uh, uh,in in yourself, with each other,
(40:30):
all of these things, um, whichI think is a really, really cool
thing.
But I want to circle back tosomething that you said, which
is you were talking about kindof a I'm going to call it a
perception issue, where it'slike, oh, ann is the student's
pastor, so she is going to be inthis made up world where kids
(40:51):
and students are against eachother.
She is going to be on the sideof the of the students team,
right, and it's like I'm curioushow you dispel that.
You know what I mean.
Like you talked about listeninga lot and everything, but if
somebody has that in their mindthat like we do it this way and
(41:16):
they are going to come andimpose their way on us, then
you're automatically so at leastone party is in like a
defensive posture in thatsituation.
You know what I mean.
So I'm imagining, like even ata smaller church, there's one
student pastor and one kid, onekid's pastor, and the student
pastor is really bought intothis and has to go approach the
(41:38):
children's pastor and say, hey,how do we work together in order
to make this better.
That conversation could beperceived as like oh well, this
person thinks that I'm bad at myjob and that they need to come
in and, you know, help me, orwhatever it is so like, how does
(41:59):
all of that?
What's the right way toapproach that conversation and
navigate those things?
And I know you kind of said that, but I want to really dig into
that because that in my mind, ifI'm like imagining how I would
react in these situations, Ifeel like those first weeks
would be like the hardest partof trying to like make something
(42:19):
happen and get the ball rollingand get people like bought into
something like what you'retrying to do.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
For sure.
Well, I think, yeah, there's alot that I could say.
I think one of the easiest waysto begin working together is to
work together, and so, woohoo,I'm so smart.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
You are so smart.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
I know.
But instead of theorizing like,hey, what if we, you know, in
some, yeah, ethereal dream thatmight not be able, it's like hey
, sixth grade, we got to.
Hey, sixth grade, we gotta fixsixth grade.
Like, I think, by bringingvision and strategy down to real
, practical examples.
It forced us to work togetherand the mission was too
(43:04):
important that we didn't havetime for the emotional waste of
all the like.
Oh, this person stepping on myis like um, that was one of the
and I didn't use that phrase alot because it can sound kind of
offensive but Cy Wakeman.
So she actually studies likehealthcare industries, so it's
not about ministry at all, butshe found that a lot of
(43:26):
companies are spending I thinkit was like almost 30% of their
time work-wise and emotionalwaste.
And as soon as I saw that, Iwas like and which is all ego
driven, uh, this person can'ttell me what to do.
This person doesn't know, orwhy don't?
Why isn't my voice matter?
Like all that stuff Right andmuch more eloquent if you just
read the book yourself.
(43:46):
But, um, I just really quicklywas like how can we make sure
that the mission is so importantthat we don't have time for
that we don't have time to spendin that land of like we've got
by August to make some decisions.
And then, similarly withSuperstart, it's like we need to
(44:09):
be ready by December to executea different play.
So let's work together and then, as those one-on-one
conversations pop up and I thinkpart of that is just creating a
really safe environment wherepeople know that you're for them
and then checking in.
But honestly, whether I liked itor not, trust for some people
was built really easily and thenfor some it had to be proven
(44:31):
over time and I'm just seeingthat I was for both, that I
cared just as much whensomething went wrong in kids
that impacted all of them as Idid in youth.
So some of that was just provenaction and interaction over
time and being really mindfulthat every time I made a
(44:51):
decision that would impact kidsor that I missed things.
Because there were a couple ofthings I missed because I wasn't
thinking.
Like we were in the middle of abuilding project and I got
asked.
Well, long story short, someonemade a decision that impacted
doors and nursery hallways.
I won't bore you with thedetails, but I heard that in a
(45:13):
meeting and was like that seemsnot right, but I don't know.
Well, it turns out it was verywrong and so it impacted the
kids team and the kids person atthat campus a ton and I had to
go back around and say I amreally sorry, I really messed
that up because I did not knowthe importance of that.
And then, from there on out, Iactually took myself out of a
(45:37):
meeting that where thosedecisions were made, cause I was
like I'm the leastknowledgeable.
We need a kids operationsperson in that room, not me.
So, yeah, we changed somethings around to make sure that
I stopped.
I didn't make mistakes, andagain, that comes from.
I'm not trying to make myselfthe hero of this, but it's like
if my ego would have driven me,I would have been prone to cover
(45:59):
up my mistake to make sureeverybody knew that I was just
as knowledgeable about kids as Iwas, you know.
And it's like the truth is isthat I'm not, and so I need
smarter people around me to helpme know what I don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I love it.
You keep talking about sixthgrade.
I want to talk about sixthgrade Cause I love the idea of
just like you're like hey, don'tdream about it, just do it,
just work together.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
And you've referenced this this, but while you dream,
do the work.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Yeah, fair enough.
So sixth grade is a hard time.
I feel like every church putsit in a different.
Like some churches sixth gradeis kids ministry, some churches
sixth grade is, uh, middleschool ministry.
And you know like even withsuperstar, we deal with this.
Like it feels like every churchhas a different rule about who
(46:54):
they bring to superstar.
Like some just bring theirsixth graders, some just bring
their fourth and fifth graders,some bring fourth, fifth and
sixth.
Like it's just kind of like allover the map where that you
refer to them as like they weregetting lost, that lost age
group falls.
So I think as like a case studyon this idea of next gen
ministry, uh, it's really apt ofyou to to continue to bring up
(47:17):
that that kind of sixth gradeyear.
So how have and you may, Idon't know, you're only a year
in, right, but like, have youbeen able to see any wins in
that yet?
Has there been any reallyencouraging stuff come out of
that yet for you?
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Has there been any really encouraging stuff come
out of that yet for you?
Yeah, I'm looking for theactual stats right now so that I
don't make stuff up, but therewas something like I'm going to
go lower so that I don'texaggerate at least 20% of an
increase in sixth grade onSunday mornings than the year
before.
Part of that.
(47:55):
I mean, there's a lot ofdifferent layers to that.
Our kids team has worked a tonon making sure that experience
is amazing and they've added aton to that.
But then also it got a ton ofattention and we talk about the
other in each environment, right.
So it's like at midweek, whichis our Wednesday night youth
(48:16):
environment, we make sure tolike talk at a campus level to
each other, kids and youthpastors working together to
encourage and invite the one tothe other.
So, yeah, attendance increasedfor sure.
But then I would say what itdid anecdotally and what I think
will pay off for years to come,is that it made.
(48:40):
It's a permanent thing thatmakes youth and kids have to be
very aware of each other andmindful of each other and work
hard together, because it's likewe share this grade.
Now you know, and um again,that doesn't practically work in
every context.
I know that, but I do think ifthere are things that kids and
youth I mean, there are so manyopportunities for you to share
(49:02):
events, so, like right now, oneof the things that we're talking
about is doing a parent andtechnology event at our campuses
, and before so it came up inyouth, but we know it's a
relevant conversation in kids,right?
It's like every parent isthinking about technology,
whether it's when should I allowmy preschooler to watch a movie
for the first time?
(49:23):
When should I give my kid aphone?
You know it's like every parentis thinking about that, and so
we could just do that in youthand talk about smartphones, or
we could do that with both.
So we're going to do that inyouth and talk about smartphones
, or we could do that with both,um, so we're going to do that
with both.
That is going to mean it willprobably take longer to decide
what we're going to do.
That means it'll add a few morelayers of complication, I'm
(49:45):
sure, and it will be so muchbetter and more effective for
our parents to know like we arethinking about the things that
you're thinking about, and wewant to help be a resource for
you that you can trust.
Um, I don't know if thatanswers your question, but it.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Uh, it did, I love it , yeah, I love it.
Um, hey, we've been chatting along time and I feel like, uh,
this conversation has kind ofmade my brain motion some ways,
because you're so smart and haveso many great things to say.
So I want to kind of wind itdown just a little bit.
(50:21):
I have one more question.
I'm curious, john, how are youfeeling?
You got anything?
You've been quiet over there.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
You have any questions for Ann?
Questions for Ann.
Speaker 4 (50:34):
Yeah, anne, I do have questions, oh here we go, john,
if you have a question can youpull?
That mic closer.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
So let's pretend that I'm working at Trader's Point
and I'm a children's pastor.
Let's pretend I'm a children'spastor, yeah, and I've been
there for a real long time.
I crush it.
I got a good system.
I got a good system.
I got a good rhythm.
I do the same thing every year.
You know kind of been doing itfor a while.
This works real well.
You want to bring in a newjunior high high school people
(51:04):
and have me work on things withthem?
Tell me, help me understand whyI should listen to them.
What's that?
What is that Hoorah moment youcreate for that team that says I
know what you do is good, butif, if, we can do this together,
it's better.
Help me have that conversation,yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
I think the first thing I would do if I was that
youth pastor is to make surethat I was serving in kids
ministry so that, before I askedthem to be a part of anything I
wanted to do, I was a part oftheir world, and then vice versa
.
I think the first thing I wouldask that kids pastor to be a
part of would be something easylike check in at a youth event.
(51:45):
Right, it's like, hey, I couldreally use your brain and your
help in this smaller thing andthen I would follow up with them
of what did you notice?
What are things that stood outto you?
And very quickly.
I mean, a person like that, whohas that much tenure, is going
to be very thoughtful in thefeedback they have from you.
Everything from you had noallergy friendly options to this
(52:06):
.
You know, building was an ADAcompliant to.
Hey, I felt like you could havesomething more tangible in your
teach moment that actuallyhelped kids stay engaged.
I would learn from them firstand all the things that they
have to offer, before I wouldsay I need you to do this a
different way, and then I wouldsay, hey, I've been thinking a
ton about this thing.
That feels, from my perspective, like it could be better,
(52:29):
because it was again.
It wasn't like sixth grade wasbroken, right, we weren't going
to anybody and saying you'redoing a bad job, that wasn't
true.
It was just like we know thiscan be better, we know Superstar
can be better and it would bebetter if we had the way that
you think and the way that youdo what you do a part of it.
I mean, I think one of the mostpowerful and this is such a
(52:52):
small thing, but it's big is,over the last year, just being
more mindful, both of us that weare serving in each other's
spaces and so, like, at ourPlainfield campus, our kids
pastor serves in the guestexperience team, basically at
our youth every Wednesday night,and so for parents, I mean
that's huge.
When a sixth grade, seventhgrade parent comes to drop off
(53:15):
their kid, they see Danielle,they know Danielle.
At the same time, danielle canoffer the youth pastor, ryan,
feedback that he really, reallyneeds.
And then vice versa, he servedat Superstar, he went to kids
camp.
So like they became a teambecause they were also working
at each other's spaces andactually doing the hard stuff I
don't think anybody wants tohear from like an ivory tower on
(53:36):
high right.
It's like you want to hear fromsomebody who's been in it with
you, and that's what I wouldencourage.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
I love that.
I love that and I think that isa lovely note to end on.
You use the word mindful quitea bit and I was hoping you would
drop a demure in theresomewhere.
I know that that's over.
I know that we've moved on fromthat, but yeah, no, it's over,
(54:04):
but I still wanted it to happenand I can't explain it.
Speaker 3 (54:07):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
It's okay, I don't even know what that word means
and you're wonderful.
Thank you for being on ourboard, thank you for being an
excellent next-gen pastor andthank you for being with us
today.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
Thank you guys.
Thanks for even beginning theconversation.
I think it's a really importantone for youth pastors to have,
and I do have a lot of regretsabout the ways I did youth
ministry in the beginning, butone of the biggest ones was that
I didn't honestly like tap intothe children's pastor more.
She could have helped me in alot more ways than I even knew,
(54:41):
so yeah, that's a great.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
That's a great.
If there's one thought to kindof take away from this
conversation, I feel like thatmight be it that we work
together, we're better together,right?
Thanks so much, Anne,appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
Thank you guys, and I feel like that might be it that
we work together, we're bettertogether, right?
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Uh, thanks a bunch and appreciate you.
Thank you guys.
Um, I'm super, super gratefulfor Ann and all of the the wise,
wise, wise things that that shesaid.
And you know what wise, wise,wise things that she said.
And you know what, john.
(55:23):
Mr Practical, I'm not as in theweeds on the practical stuff as
you are.
You love being practical.
What's the number one thingthat Ann said that you're like
yes, if everybody did this, itwould be a step in the right
direction.
Help each other out, help eachother out.
Volunteer in kids ministry.
Just a little bit, just alittle bit.
(55:44):
Yeah, oh, I love that.
Yeah, serve, that's a good,it's a good step forward.
It was a good conversation,john, appreciate you being here.
I'm going to ask that you closeout our time together by
reading our blessing over ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
Awesome.
Our prayer today is may Godshow you grace and bless you.
May he make his face shine onyou.
May you experience the love ofChrist, through whom God gives
you the fullness of life.
May you experience the love ofChrist, through whom God gives
you the fullness of life.
May you be strengthened by hispower.
May Christ himself make hishome in your heart, that you
(56:20):
would be full of his love andgrace and that those you serve
would see Jesus in you today'sepisode was produced by Michael
Hester, Warren Bryan and myself.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
I want to give another huge thank you to Ann
Wilson for being with us today.
Thanks to John for being withus today.
Be sure to tune back in in acouple of weeks.
I don't remember what we'redoing in a couple of weeks, but
we'll have an episode and it'sgoing to be great.
Hope that your Christmas andNew Year's festivities with your
families were wonderful.
This has been a great start to2025 with you guys.
(56:56):
Be sure to subscribe whereveryou listen to podcasts and you
know you can reach out to us onthe Facebook group, the CYY
Community Facebook group, or byemail at podcast at CYYcom.
We'll see you next time.
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