BTE4.09 Resourcing Decisions: Part 1 with Jayson French

Mailbag questions or topic suggestions? Text us!

Join us as we celebrate a major milestone in our journey—our 50th episode of Beyond the Event!

With CIY President Jayson French, we reflect on the last 50 episodes of helping you maintain momentum between the mountaintops. We're also diving into the core of what makes CIY (and youth ministry) thrive: a vibrant organizational culture. Continuous learning and self-education take center stage as we discuss the fine art of choosing resources that truly resonate with your leadership style.

Beyond just knowledge, we talk about creating environments where everyone can flourish, driven by the belief that leadership is about enabling others to reach their full potential. From managing large youth groups to empowering adult leaders, we share strategies that ensure everyone is engaged and thriving.

In a lighter moment, we unwrap a mailbag filled with entertaining tales, including a humorous hunting story with Jayson's daughter. But the cornerstone of our conversation is a discussion around the aging pastoral workforce and the pressing need for strategic mentorship. CIY is launching the Follow Through initiative to help students take the right next steps if they feel God is calling them into vocational ministry.

Be sure to check out the new video version of this podcast on YouTube!

Want to connect with us? Here's how!

• www.ciy.com
• youtube.com/christinyouth
• @christinyouth on Instagram
• CIY Community Facebook Group
• Email us at [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Brad Warren and this is Beyond the Event, a
youth ministry podcast presentedby Christ in Youth, where we
help you maintain momentumbetween the mountaintops.
Jason French is here today tocelebrate our 50th episode.
Be here, man.
50?
Can you?
You're going to put like noisein there, right, yeah, just
pretend that there's a fanfareBeep, beep, beep, beep.
Probably not that.
Okay, probably not that.

(00:28):
Okay.
50 episodes that's kind of nuts, can't believe it.
Thanks for coming along for theride.
If you're listening to this, doyou have a favorite episode?
Uh, I have some favorites.
Give me a favorite, not thefavorite just so one of my
favorites that like isunderstated that I don't think

(00:49):
enough people listen to and Idon't think enough people
engaged with because of when weposted it, um which we were
talking about this a little bitearlier.
There are times in the yearwhere it's like there's not as
much is.
We did an episode with, uh,jeremy stevenson from christ
Christ Church in Jacksonvilleabout like student leadership
and ministry and he talked a lotabout like sacrificing

(01:11):
perfection for like gettingstudents involved.
Like hey, if you're going tohave an eighth grade guy run
lights, they're going to misssome cues.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
You know I'm passionate about that.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
That's still better, you know.
So that was a great episodeEngagement over excellence man.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yes, engagement over excellence.
What's one that you look at andgo like you blame yourself, not
the person interviewed, likeman that one don't.
Don't go back and listen tothat one.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
I mean, all of the early ones were like it's tough
for me to go back and listen tobecause I'm like uh, I just
wasn't the sound of your ownvoice.
I I am now because I listened toall of them.
Okay, because I'm like mondaymorning, quarterbacking all the
time like, oh, you should haveasked this, you should have done
this, you should have said this, whatever, or you should have
asked this question this way oryou should have.

(01:56):
This is my number one criticismof myself.
Shut up, brad, stop talking andlet your let the other person
talk.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Uh, like right now, yeah I kind of hijacked it,
though, sorry.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
No, I mean jason asked you a question and you
were answering the question yeah, okay, um, but I I do want to
shout out one other episode thatI just really love is the
episode that we did with geronscott.
Geron, do you know how smartthat guy is?
I do not, like he has recall,like you would not believe.
Okay, we were sitting herehaving a conversation, like you

(02:30):
and I, right now.
Okay, no computer, no phone,open, no notes, and he can just
pull things like this personsaid this in this book and that
applies to our conversation Likethe context of information that
he has just like floatingaround in his brain is crazy.
He's a very, very smart.

(02:50):
I don't have that either so Iwas sitting there and I was like
blown away.
I was like how do you remember?

Speaker 2 (02:55):
all of that.
I can watch a movie and notremember that I've watched it a
year later I, I'm a little bitlike that.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
If I don't like, it's either that or I remember every
single word.
No, I don't do that In order,but 50.
That's awesome 50 episodes.
You now have been on three ofthem I have, and none of those
made your list.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well, I was just getting ready to say you're an
all-timer when it comes toguests.
All-timer, there's a lot ofways you can we've told some
good stories on this podcast wetold you.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
We told you um also I'm just gonna tease this a
little bit it may not even cometo fruition.
Jason has some greatprogramming ideas for the
podcast, so there may be somestuff.
There may not, but there may besome stuff maybe coming down
the road.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Maybe that our boy, jason french, is fully
responsible for because he hasgreat ideas blame for can take
the blame for him.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
No, it'll be great stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
It'll be good.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
I think it would be good for youth pastors.
Okay, we are sitting here.
It is January.
We just turned the page 2025.
Ciy, what are we pumped about?
What's like, when you wake up,get out of bed, you're like, yes
, it's 2025.
I'm pumped about this.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
I mean I'm pumped about a lot of things.
I'm pumped about the health ofour churches.
Yeah, that honestly has me morefired up than anything.
I tell our team all the timethat, man, our growth is only a
reflection of some really greatchurches and we only grow when
churches grow only reflection ofsome really great churches, and
we only grow when churches grow.
Uh, but at the same time, man,our, our growth right now is

(04:28):
through the roof and and and.
For me, the excitement part ofthat is not just the amount of
people.
That's not what fires me up,it's the decisions that get made
as a result of those people.
Being there like that fires meup that I get excited about.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Stick a pin in that.
Yep, let's come back to that,sorry, what else?

Speaker 2 (04:44):
I'm really excited about some, or just our staff,
just our health, the health ofour community.
You know that every year, I doa thing where I interview every
single SAP person on our team.
Do that every year, sit downwith them either groups,
one-on-one or one-on-three, andthis is the healthiest
interviews that I've ever done.
You know I've been doing thatsince 2019.
Yeah, even in COVID we did it,yep, but for years.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
I was going to say that that practice has endured
some.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Oh yeah, Rough times, but I'm really excited about
just just coming to work, Ithink out of our staff retreat
we did and some of the thingswe're we're putting into place
to just encourage team health.
I'm really excited about thatthat we get a really healthy
team, a really healthyorganization, and I love when
there's not like drama.
I hate conflict, it's why I'mso quick to confront, and so I
love the fact that it's just alot of health right now.

(05:35):
There's things we get to workon, things we are improving
things.
We are actively trying to makebetter for our team and for our
churches.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
But those are two things right out of the gate
that fire me up.
Yeah, it's awesome how littleturnover we have.
Like how many anniversarieswe're celebrating has been
really fun People since the dayI started here, it's like oh,
how do I get a job at CIO, youknow, it's like people want to
work here, which is really cool,and right now I got to tell
them like I don't, like it'shard for me to imagine just a
bunch of positions opening up onany kind of like regular basis,

(06:15):
because people will stay here.
They want to work here.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
We got a design position up and down, I think in
the first few days of itposting.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
we have 30 applications already in a few
days for design positions crazyyeah, it's good, it is super
good, but you've been here 20years, 22 years, man, 22 years,
um, I'm I.
What is today?
Oh my gosh, is this yourtomorrow?
Tomorrow is how many years?
Uh, seven years, that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
So pikel is right behind me I just hit five years
uh, this past august five yearsand producer lauren off mic four
years.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
So but the amount of people have been here 20 years,
15 years.
We just celebrated two, two, 20, years.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Jennifer and eric have been here 20 years.
Yeah, the longevity of ourexecutive team.
Just everywhere Loses the least, at like 15 years.
Have we ever added it up ofjust like how many years of
experience we have representedin this building?

Speaker 2 (07:11):
It's very different than when I first got here.
Crazy, a lot of people thatstay this long.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, it's really kind of Well that you're going
to deflect this, and that's fine.
I'm going to this on mic.
Our compensation has gotten somuch better under your

(07:36):
leadership.
We're paid like real peoplewith real jobs, which is so cool
, and I think that's a huge partof it.
And people like working here.
They like being here.
Well, that's a huge part of it.
And people like working here,they like being here.
Well, that's a good team and weit's.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
I think it's.
It's fun when you enjoy thepeople you come to work with.
Yeah, and there's not a day atCY that goes by that I don't at
some point don't have like asincere good laugh.
And you know what I do matters.
But I know, if I look at thegreater scope of eternity, who I
do it with matters just as much.
Yep, and when it comes tothings like pay and benefits, I

(08:09):
think we try to stay ascompetitive as we can.
I don't think it's ever rightto use the name of Jesus as a
reason to take advantage ofsomeone.
Yeah, I believe a workman'sworthy of their wage and we want
at the same time be respectfulof that so we can keep our

(08:30):
prices down for students as muchas possible.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
you know we we don't ever want that to get out of
whack, but at the same time, Ijust don't, I don't believe in
mistreating people under theumbrella of of kingdom work.
I'm very glad that you don't,don't uh enjoy, I do.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
I will say this I think more and more churches
could take that to heart.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
Be up front with you yeah, I mean it's hard, right,
you know it's one more learning,though it's a different, oh a
hundred percent people arefiguring that out ministry it
was.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
It was a rough man.
My first decade of ministry wasbrutal.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah and uh do you remember like your first salary?

Speaker 2 (08:56):
yeah, what was it?
I lived in southern californiaand I made eighteen thousand
dollars a year.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
No benefits you have to have to make $18,000 a month
not to live there.
I did have healthcare.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
That was even low then.
And my second one I made$25,000 a year and I thought I
was just living large man yeah.
And yeah, I think again, Idon't think any of us get in
this for the money.
That's not the intent, and Iknow we're hijacking the podcast
right now.
I don't think any of us get inthis for the money.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
That's not the intent and I know we're hijacking the
podcast right now.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
This is what we're here for.
But when you've got, whenyou've got people working
diligently, trying to becomeprofessionals you know being not
trying to become becomingprofessionals at their craft
with college educations, youknow I think I think they
deserve to be treated with, withrespect and dignity.
And part of the way not theonly way is you pay people
appropriately.
At the same time, you can paysomebody well, but if you treat
them like trash, that won'tmatter, right?

(09:48):
And I think part of the reasonwhy we have such a wide back
door in ministry sometimes iscompounded by two things One, we
didn't pay them properly and,in addition to or separate issue
, we didn't treat them properly.
And for me, we measure successof an individual on two axis
points.
We're really getting offtangent.
I'm sorry I'm about to take iteven farther.

(10:09):
So keep going.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Keep going.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
We really measure employees on two axis points.
There's a vertical axis on doyou get your stuff done that
matters, and then a horizontalaxis of how do you treat people
along the way.
And a lot of times churchesknow, man, they'll, they'll,
expect the youth pastors to geta lot done, but won't always
focus on man, what is it?
What's a fair compensation rateto to treat them properly?

(10:31):
Um, you know, and, and I thinkboth those access points matter,
and so we try to measure ourstaff on that.
And, man, we, we keep a lot ofstaff.
Sometimes we have to let somestaff go and I hate that.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Um, and that's another part of it.
That doesn't happen very often,no, but it does it does happen.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, and I don't want to.
I'm not trying to dodge it,because for me, in a servant
leadership culture, you have todo that.
Yeah, you know if, if youreally want to other people in
the organization.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
So we really got off the rails, man.
No, I'm going to dig in.
So you went to.
It was our Christian college Idid.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
You got a degree in, Just a bachelor's degree in
Bible, bachelor of biblicalministry or whatever.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Okay, A lot of people go that route right and then
they become a youth pastor andthen they crushed it being a
youth pastor and then theybecome an executive pastor or
senior pastor or whatever, andtheir training is not in
organizational culture, right,it is in.
You know how to be a good youthpastor, how to preach, how to

(11:43):
teach, how to study the Bible.
You know all of these differentthings that we talk a lot about
at Bible college and you mighthave one organizational
leadership class thrown in therein your sophomore year that you
don't remember anything from.
It's like how does somebody whosays, okay, I feel like I am

(12:04):
gifted to preach the word, toteach the word?
Um, and I am a preacher, howdoes that person also become
somebody who fosters like thetype of environment that you're
describing?
Because that doesn't justhappen.
You know what?
I mean you've been extremelyintentional here about our
culture, not just you.
You, john lives at or jenniferhave been extremely, you know,

(12:26):
intentional about that.
So like how, how does thathappen?
You know, what would yourencouragement be to somebody who
that might not comesupernaturally to?

Speaker 2 (12:36):
yeah, I think, uh, I don't think it has to come
supernaturally, I think it cancome pretty practically.
It's kind of like what youalluded to in a second, that a
lot of times people go to schoolfor one thing and then they
graduate and they just simplystop learning, and that, to me,
is the tragedy.
I mean, I did get a master'sdegree, but you don't have to
pursue the master's.

(12:56):
I think it's beneficial, Ithink there's health in that.
But, man, the amount ofresources and knowledge at our
fingertips right now is soimmense that anyone remaining
uneducated on how to create ahealthy culture, that's on them.
That's on them to not put forththe work and the effort it
takes to get on and to readbooks, to read articles,

(13:18):
scholarly articles, to get onYouTube and to learn.
I mean, if somebody isn'tfiguring that out, I think I'd
look at it, I would questiontheir drive and desire to
actually want to know it,because it's out there.
To me, the harder thing is notjust growing in that area, brad,
I think the harder thing islearning what to weed out.

(13:39):
You know, like I always tellpeople, man, there's two
theories of leadership, goingback to George McGovern, like
60s.
You can go, theory X or theoryY, and for you to figure out,
what type of leader do you wantto be?
And it really comes down towhat do you think motivates
people.
Do you believe they'reintrinsically motivated or they
need external motivation?
And then figuring out as aleader, to say, man, when I

(14:01):
create a culture, what kind ofculture do I want to make?
Do I want to make one that'smore theory X or one that's more
theory Y?
And then in that case, then,man, I'm going to steer my
education towards theory Y books, theory Y, articles,

(14:23):
no-transcript.
So I'm going to surround myselfwith those resources.
But, man, anybody can do this ifthey'll just put in the work.
I say anyone, I may back up.
The supernatural part that Iwould push back on is what Paul
says when he says I gave some tobe, and no doubt that there is
also a supernatural ability toleadership, that that is

(14:45):
ordained and given by the holyspirit.
But that doesn't keep evensomebody who, who is not
supernaturally trained orsupernaturally gifted to, not.
They can still learn, yeah, andthey still cultivate it and
grow in that area.
So, yeah, I misspoke earlier.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
what'd you say?
I just meant like verynaturally gifted, not like super
naturally gifted, but that's agood point too.
Yeah, but you started talkingabout the Holy spirit and I was
like what did I ask him?

Speaker 2 (15:12):
No, that's what?

Speaker 1 (15:12):
no, that's great, no, that's, that's really good
stuff.
So, um, yeah, I think the thingI want to pull out of that,
though, is have a lot to do.
There's a lot of stuff on yourto-do list, and it's like you
have to prioritize this.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
If you want to have a healthy culture, like just
being a good preacher and havinggood bedside manner and, you
know, being a kind person to theparishioners in your flock or
whatever is like not going tojust magically create a healthy
work environment you have towant to do that.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
yeah, definitely, man , you're, you're directly right
on that.
I think the other question iswhy do you want it?
Not only do you have to want it, I think, what's your
motivation for wanting it?
Um, and and that, for me, is iswhat really changes culture is
when your motivation fordesiring healthy culture you
know, for me, my motivation forcreating healthy culture what

(16:09):
are you going to say?

Speaker 1 (16:10):
I already know it.
What Say it?
What is it, Michael?
Do you know it?
I actually am not sure.
Oh, he's going to talk aboutthe Imago Dei.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
I will.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
I gave you an opportunity to just smash that
one out of the park.
I know I will.
I gave you an opportunity tojust smash that one out of the
park, I know.
No, that's all right.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
It's our first pillar in our five cultural values is
Imago Dei.
Yep, in that man, my desire forcreating other culture has less
to do.
I don't want anybody going like, wow, french, you created such
a healthy culture, or lose that.
Or, jennifer, somebody else,how the org team does such a
great job so that we can somehowget our accolades in this Like
that's not even it.
For me, it's because I want torealize that God has given us

(16:47):
these talents, and what could wedo if we really fostered an
environment where these peoplecould excel and they could grow
and they could flourish?
And so for me, the culture ismore about creating an
atmosphere where they canflourish and they can grow and
see why did god knit youtogether in your mother's womb?
Uh, and one of the things Idon't want to be held
responsible for is the lord tosay man, I gave you lauren and

(17:09):
that's all you did.
Or you had michael hester andthat's that's all.
Or brad, like, come on, theywere.
They were gifted for so muchmore.
And I want to.
When I heard him say well done,good faithful servant, I think
it's going to have a lot more todo with our people and so I'm.
I'm driven to see growth in ourpeople more than I'm driven for
people to to say, wow, that'sone of the top 10 places to work

(17:29):
and wherever.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
You know what I mean right, oh no, I I totally, you
know, see that, yeah, but anyway, that was a tangent, uh, so it
was a good one, though that wasa good one um, it is in the
world where this podcast ispublished.
Uh, january 20th, so got a lotto look forward to this year, um

(17:51):
, but one of the big things iswe will have just finished up
our first superstar event of theyear, which is like it's
happening.
It's 2025.
We're doing it, michael.
How is Superstar Florida?

Speaker 3 (18:06):
You know what we really did it.
Anyway, I might be on a planeright now.
You might be.
Yeah, when you're listening.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Well, we're 50 episodes in.
We're not ditching thistradition.
It's time for the mailbag.
Did you guys wait?

Speaker 2 (18:22):
hold on.
Did you get to go see Superstarwhen they were rehearsing
Mm-hmm Well?

Speaker 1 (18:26):
he was there all week .
I got to go a little bit.
I got sick like sick, sick.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
I was out like I did the all skate with all of them.
We do a thing for yourlisteners, we do.
I went home and was in bedbasically Tuesday night,
wednesday, thursday, friday.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
Well, you said a couple of times during that
meeting you were like ah yeah,it's weird what I was saying.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
It's like I don't know if I'm saying this very
clearly, but yeah, I didn't getto see any of it.
I apologize to Corey and Rob,but yeah, I felt bad.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
You'll get to go to a couple though.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:59):
Yeah, start off strong with a question from matt
tibbett.
Okay, he says a question forfrenchie.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
If you don't know tibbett, he is a mix of like,
great youth pastor and wonderfulredneck is it fair?

Speaker 3 (19:12):
I honestly I don't think I've ever met, oh gosh
matt tibbett's a case you livein arkansas.
I've heard, I've heard mattgoes to move missouri one.
He does, matt.
I'm at move missouri yearReally, so come and find me.
You need to meet Tibbett andonce you meet.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Tibbett, you'll never forget.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
I'm buying a quarter beef from Matt Tibbett this year
.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, he's raising his own cows.
Yeah, he raises his own cattle.
He is one of the best bowhunters I know Pretty amazing
bow hunter.
Yeah, he's incredibly atarchery.
So yeah, he is legitimately.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
I get in trouble because I say this about
everybody.
But one of my favorite peoplein the entire world, Like he
yeah, he doesn't even make mytop 10.
Okay, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Tim, if you're listening.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Anyway what does Tibbett want to know?

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Okay, what's the most unique story you have where
someone, whether it's you, aloved one or maybe your child,
has harvested a deer, memorable,wait, wait.
The most memorable, the mostunique story yeah he's, he knows
the story.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, he knows exactly what he's asking.
I also know the story andplease don't make this the first
episode of this podcast wherewe have to put the explicit oh
man I'm gonna be careful.
Yeah, there's some creativeways around us he said deer
specifically yeah, he said Icould tell bear stories because
we well, we already did the bearstory.
We did bear stories.
Yeah, we've done.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
Okay, so here's the story I teach my kids to hunt at
an early age and we arefortunate enough to have enough
land we can hunt right behind myhouse and, uh, his, we says his
kids, three boys.
We got three boys, one daughter, one daughter.
And one of the things that Ilove is we go out in the deer
stand together and we sit, gotthis two-man stand that we grew
up in, typically where we hunt,and it's always epic.

(20:54):
My daughter and I we laugh sohard up there.
I'm surprised we ever see anydeer.
We will literally just get justlaughing and having a good time
.
My daughter, one time I trainedher to shoot, taught her how to
how to hunt.
She was up there and she washunting with a.
It was a Marlin 3030.
Cause we live in a lot of brush, it's great, a little brush gun
, a compact lever action.

(21:16):
And I taught her we have ascope on this Marlin Marlin, on
this Marlin 3030.
I taught her to you know, go upthe legs, and I'm not trying to
get gross here but in terms ofhow you harvest a deer, there's
a specific place for shotplacement.
That if you, if you, you knowin the scope.
I said, hey, do you see the leg.
She's like, yeah, and I said,okay, go up, up, up, up up, okay
, right, when you get up to thatarea the shoulder we Okay.

(21:40):
And she's like, I can't find thedeer.
I can't find the deer.
Did you find the leg?
Yeah, I found the leg.
Okay, all right, you know shewas too low in the shot.
She went up the leg and shefired and the deer ran off and I
was like, hey, you hit it andshe did.
Oh, did she ever hit that deer?
And unfortunately we found outthe next day we had to bring in

(22:02):
like tracking dogs and stuffthat my daughter had not gone up
the front leg.
My sweet daughter had gone upthe back leg of this buck and
had shot this particular deerright in its mouth when you
wouldn't want it to be shot.
if you were a dude deer.
I don't think any deer wants tobe shot.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Shot the deer in its man parts Makes wants to be shot
, but yeah, yeah, shot the deerin his man parts.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Uh makes for a great story, but yeah, it's.
Uh, it's pretty epic.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
Yeah, oh man, that's tough.
The deer went all night.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
That way we had to be in tracking dogs and find it
the next day.
And we did harvest the deer wegot it but yeah, it's just crazy
.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
So was the was the deer dead when you know it's not
dead, and had lived all nightthat way.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
That's sad.
Oh, yes, that is not a lethalwound, surprisingly, Like I
thought that would be dead.
My mind's like you'd be deadfrom that kind of shot.
I would hope so At that pointit's like Can you imagine that
deer trying to explain to otherdeer during it?

Speaker 3 (23:00):
That's a long story, man.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Oh man, like that's a long story.
Man, yeah, oh man, the theeunuch deer.
Oh man the eunuch, uh, french,you can ask her at the time that
she shot a deer the only time,only time, she shot it because
after that I don't think she wastoo eager.
No, she's been prettyembarrassed about it.
She brought that question upover chris's break when she was
home from college.
It was like did you knowthere's a question on there?

Speaker 1 (23:28):
a search it through there and now you just brought
up in the room so she saw it onfacebook she did does sydney
listen to the podcast?

Speaker 3 (23:35):
oh?

Speaker 1 (23:35):
she, uh, probably she will now she replied oh, god
bless her, she's a great girlokay, uh, we have a question
from matt berry.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
Um again, matt.
This is the second time I'vesaid this.
Thank you for all the questions.
Thank you, matt.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, matt is our number one supplier for
questions oh, you're onlyallowed to ask me all bad
questions if your name is mattyeah, yeah, that is now the.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, that's, that's now the rule.
So alex weirda is now namedmatt alex weirda.
Okay, um, there's a questionfrom him.
I'll ask later.
Okay, uh, anyway.
So, matt berry.
That's, that's now the rule.
So Alex weird is now named MattAlex weird.
Okay, um, there's a questionfrom him.
I'll ask later.
Okay, uh, anyway.
So Matt Barry is asking whatare the most effective ways to
scale CIY events for largeryouth groups, think youth groups
taking trips with 75 to ahundred plus students on them.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Uh, I've done that back when Iwas in youth ministry and no
doubt things have changed sincethen.
You know, I'd say the power ofa move event, mix event,
superstar, it doesn't matter,the power is the same whether
you are.
We've got one church that'llbring three or four thousand
kids, but still our bread andbutter typical size youth group,

(24:39):
brad, I think is still whataround 27 to 32, youth, 25, yeah
, somewhere in there, and a lotof churches that still bring
like eight people, yes, or five,yeah, yeah, a lot of minivans.
So it's a big spectrum and I'dsay the truth remains the same
in terms of scale, the qualityof getting kids in good small
groups with adult leaders atcare, that's the most important
thing.
You can scale large and smallin the direction you want, but

(25:04):
make sure that you're spending alot of time in those small
groups, especially youth grouptime at night, so important.
There's a lot of things you cando to scale in terms of like.
When we were starting out, wecouldn't afford the busing on
our own.
We first started going.
I think the first time westarted taking a larger group it
was like 60 to 75 kids and Iwas like, oh okay, man, it's

(25:27):
more than one charter bus, wecan't afford two.
And so we learned to scale bypartnering with some churches in
the area and splitting some ofthat second bus cost and again,
this has been a long time ago.
Those are some things that welearned to do.
You know, we tried also not toallow our scale as we got large
and large and took larger andlarger groups to always try to

(25:49):
draw unnecessary attention.
Our kids love the identity, butnot to the point that it made
other groups feel like isolatedor like they weren't welcome,
and so we try to make sure that,as our groups even some of the
groups we took that were 300plus making sure that the way we
interacted in a room wasn't sodistracting.
So I think that's the otherside of scale as well, but I

(26:10):
don't know if I answered thatquestion very well or not.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
I think you are.
It reminds me of that momentthat happens at Move or Mix,
where a team is on a breakbetween dodgeball matches in the
dodgeball tournament and anadult leader sitting there next
to a student and the studentsays, hey, did you hear what the
speaker said last night?
And like those little momentsand conversations that happen

(26:35):
all throughout the week, all thetime, that are really where the
magic happens.
Like that is to me, likeeverything that we create in the
big room is to set up thatconversation.
You know what I mean.
But the only way that youmaximize the number of students
that are able to engage in thoseconversations is to make sure
that you bring enough adultleaders with you.
And I know, like in ourregistration policy we say that

(26:58):
you have to have one leader forevery 10 students that move and
eight students that mix, butit's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, the
more you can even like get thatratio down or up.
What do you do with the ratioDown?

Speaker 2 (27:12):
Change it, change it.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, more adults, yeah, yeah, the better, the
better experience is going to befor your students across the
board, I feel like the larger weget to, and I mean it's
complicated, it's expensive andI recognize that.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
But when we got large as a group we did either more
intentional things on the frontend or the back end.
Normally on the back end whatwe tried not to do is because it
was such a large group cominghome we would try not to just
take the vans back everyone getsout and they're gone but a lot

(27:48):
of times we would finish, moveand actually go spend another
day or two at a retreat centerwith that group of students
trying to really anchor in whatwas gained.
And that man over years thatpaid tremendous dividends
because it allowed kids to getover the initial, you know, this
mountaintop experience allowsus to kind of come down a bit
together as a group and reallysettle in.

(28:10):
After a couple of days, man,what have we learned?
And I felt like for scale as wegrew larger, that became really
important.
But I also know, man, that'sjust more work, it's more
planning, it's more details,it's more money, it's more
everything.
But it was huge for us.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
I have another really practical one that helped me
out a lot when I was in youthindustry.
You might disagree with this, Idon't know.
Let's see what happens.
Probably not, maybe, but maybenot.
Let's see what happens.
I think that especially thelarger your group gets, the more
youth faster.
Like, the person who's in thatlike I'm, the person in charge
role should not be leading asmall group and, like along the

(28:48):
lines of what you're saying,empowering all the adult leaders
in order to be in the rightplace, but also, the more kids
you bring and the more leadersyou bring, the more for lack of
a better term, like fires thereare going to be to put out the
more trips to walgreens or cvsyou're making the er, whatever
it may be you're going to bemaking the ER, whatever it may
be.
You're going to be making Allkinds of crazy conversations

(29:10):
that are going to be happeningand empowering your adult
leaders.
I know that we all got intoyouth ministry because we wanted
to be sitting in those circles,and so that's a really hard
decision to make, to be likeokay, I'm going to empower my
adult leaders to do this so thatI can live like up above the
entire event and kind of makesure that all of the ducks are

(29:32):
in a row all over the place.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, how do you feel about that kind of thing?
I think it's really wise andwould say, man, that's great
wisdom.
I think the one tension youwant to avoid is there are some
guys that do that too early andthey, they want to almost be
disconnected, and I've seenthose guys.
I'm like man, you, you arealways at the coffee shop.
You're never with your kids oryour adult leaders.
I see that at move.

(29:55):
Sometimes I'm like what's goingon, man?
I want to ask that question.
I don't out of respect, but I'mlike what are you doing, man?
Uh, but, but I do think that,the more especially when I think
of some of the students wewould take that were troubled
and adult leaders.
We have a hard time with them.
I would say, hey, man, I'm goingto pull that kid out of small
group today and I want to go fora walk with them in a public
area, all that kind of stuff,using good wisdom.

(30:16):
But just say I want to have aconversation with them, I want
to pull them out.
Or sometimes I knew a kid had adecision they wanted to make an
adult leader or a confession ofrepentance they needed to deal
with.
They didn't know how to handleit.
Sometimes it would let me bringthat adult leader in and that
kid and we could all three sitdown together and I could show
them how to have thoseconversations.
And so, yeah, the more you'vegot margin to do that, the

(30:38):
better, because if you'releading another group, you don't
have margin.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
That can't happen.
There's no margin.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
You can't do it yeah I don't really know if this is
specifically what matt was waslooking for, but I think I think
the way that you know we'retalking about answering this
question, talking so much aboutsmall groups, I think, is an
important detail.
Um, I I hope that every like,every one that comes to our
events understands this.
Our events, I guess,technically are large-scale

(31:02):
events, even at our like smallerones but, like you know, I work
in the live productiondepartment.
Like my whole thing that I do atour events is the main sessions
, but I think ever, I hopeeveryone understands that what
we believe at our core, the mostimportant time at our events is
small group time, absolutely,um and so like.
Even though we're talking about, you know, bringing tons of

(31:23):
students and figuring out how towrangle those students or
whatever the case may be, asmall group is such an important
thing to really make sure thatwe have that figured out.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, no, you're exactly right, Michael.
That is the core.
One more one more.
Yeah, so we have a questionfrom Matt Alex Wierda.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Thanks, Matt.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
I'm saying Wirda correctly.
Is that right, Brad?

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yes, you are.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
He was your college roommate.
He was my college roommate.
I know that from the future itgets revealed in an episode a
few weeks from now.
All right, anyway.
So Alex has a question that Ithink we're going to ask this
question actually a coupledifferent times on the podcast.
I'm going to sort of like shifta little bit of what this

(32:10):
question is because, jason, Ithink what you might have to say
about this actually would bepretty interesting.
Alex is asking what youthministries are you guys
referencing right now to bounceideas off of Jason for you, I
think we can broaden that alittle bit and not just talk
about youth ministries but, likewho are the people that you
meet with and ask questions toand try and figure out?
Like, what are the things thatother people are looking for,
what are they doing, what arethey valuing?

(32:30):
I think how you answer thisquestion, being in a leadership
position, I think would be alittle bit different than what
we might get from people who areworking for our programs.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
But it's important for you nonetheless to keep your
finger on the pulse of youthministry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, how doyou do that?

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah, man, there's a few people that I want to be
careful because, man, my mind isracing with names that come to
mind that I want to talk aboutand so I'm trying to filter that
down, that list from the 10that popped into my head to like
, okay, let me give you threethat I'm talking to you right
now.
One of them I really liketalking to a lot in the area of
youth ministry specifically isMike Branton.

(33:05):
I've got a huge regard for Mikeand some of the stuff that he
is doing right now in terms ofactivating students within Sun
Valley out in Phoenix is prettyremarkable.
I was actually just blown awayhearing what even CCV I know we
look at them like they're justthis huge, massive church and

(33:28):
there's nothing practical theycan do but honestly, hearing
Jake talk about some of thethings that they're wanting to
do to get students embedded intothe school system Jake Hancock.
Oh yeah, I mean just somebrilliant stuff that Jake and
his team are talking about.
I'm like man, everybody needsto hear this Like this is really
really good.
You know, I could talk annwilson and some of the stuff
they're doing right now at attaking students that want to go
into ministry and cultivating,um, a whole, like whole pathway

(33:52):
for them.
Basically I can't remember theycall it, I think actually they
call it called.
I think they stole that name,which is great steal.
It take it.
But they've got a whole thingthey're doing there and what's
happened at trader's, theexplosion that's happened under
Aaron's leadership of justcalling in people into ministry.
And there's other churches outthere and I know right now I
mean I can't have the church.
I'm thinking there's some coolthings going on at Northeast and

(34:13):
Louisville.
There's some great thingshappening at churches all over
and I need to stop because nowI'm going to start leaving
people out that are friends ofmine that I'm not mentioning,
and it's just not going to go.
It's going to go well, butthere's a lot of churches out
there doing some really specialthings on the leadership side.
Um, you know, it kind ofdepends on the context and the
conversation.
Um, you know, there's, there'sa church that right now has my

(34:35):
attention big time.
Uh, not because my daughter'sgoing to work there, uh, which
I'm really excited about, Idon't know, this.
She got the official offer,she'll start there in June and
she didn't even graduate collegeuntil December.
But I told her I was like man.
I can say this is going to be atrouble.
If I've got what might be afavorite church in the country,

(34:56):
it might be this one, becausethey're doing things.
It's just so incredible whatthey're doing there and they got
my attention because they'redoing things.
It's just so incredible whatthey're doing there and they got
my attention because they'redoing things differently.
And that's CU Champaign-Urbanaunder Jason Epperson, matt Clark
a lot of really good peoplethere, central Illinois, yeah.
Central Illinois,champaign-urbana.
And man, that's a church I'mpaying attention to a lot,

(35:20):
because some of the altruisticthings that we would say back
when I was in college, I'm likeman, I want to be a part of
churches doing this.
I'm like Jason, you're doingthose things.
I didn't think it was possibleand just some beautiful stories
came out to see you and I'mconstantly asking Jason, man,
how are you doing this?
And how do people not knowyou're doing this?
But some of the cool things andI say cool, no, it's so, it's

(35:42):
so disrespectful Some of thespirit filled things coming out
of see you right now.
I wish every church.
I talked to him like man, ifyou could take one trip right
now and go visit a church, I'dsay get time to go, spend a few
hours or a few days with JasonEpperson at CU and meet their
staff and hear what they'redoing.
I think it's revolutionary.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
I think it's revolutionary.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
I think it's just spectacular, but yes, it'd get a
job.
I'm hoping to uhcongratulations, I am I've got
him.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
I'm looking at our thing right now.
I've got him on here.
We're gonna try to get him yeahhe is notoriously hard to pin
down he is, he is, but.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
But if you want to see a church that's doing some
things different, uh, see you asthat church yeah, they really
are, which, honestly, he is hardto pin down.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
This probably contributes to his ability to be
a little bit of a visionarykind of in the clouds kind of
guy, so we appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
But that can also get down.
He can get pretty, prettydetailed as well.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
I mean he's he's a good leader, yeah I agree, okay,
um, wow, we have already beentalking for a long time.
Sorry, 45 minutes.
No, it's okay, but I broughtyou here for a specific reason
and we have to talk about it now.
So earlier you actually kind ofalluded to this.
You talked a little bit about,like, we want to grow in numbers

(36:58):
, but not for the sake ofgrowing in numbers.
We want to grow in numbersbecause we want to give more
students the opportunity to getout of their comfort zone a
little bit and be in a a spacewhere they can hear god's call
on their life, for whatever thatmay be.
I might not be saying that theway that you would say it, but

(37:18):
um, this is a uh organizationalinitiative uh that we have to
see more students called intovocational ministry at CIY
events.
Not just that but that is stepone, step one.
Why?
When did this start for you?

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Well, I think vocational ministry is a piece I
mean.
I think we also want to see Ithink in the next few years
we're hoping to see 300,000students trained to articulate
their faith with gentleness andrespect.
I think we want to equipchurches to follow up with kids
who make decisions forrepentance, that need help, kids
that want to go into kingdomwork industry.
We started there and part of itis Brad.

(38:03):
When you look at the landscapeand man, I don't mind saying
I've got gray in my beard.
I've got no issue with my age.
The fact I get to do what I doat my age is fantastic and I
don't shirk away from that atall.
It's given me a lot of wins anda lot of losses over the years
and I appreciate, appreciate thegray, but the graying of of the

(38:25):
american pastor is is prettyintense right now.
When you consider the averageage of a pastor in the us is 54
years old.
Yeah, 54 is the average age man.
25 of all pastors in the us aregoing to retire by 2030.
That's intense and I don't knowthat people recognize the wave
that's coming.

(38:45):
I saw somebody made a post onFacebook the other day about you
know, don't go to Bible college, get your youth ministry degree
, and I'm like you don't knowwhat you're saying, like you
have no clue what's happening inthe emerging storm that's
developing on the front of thechurch, which is you've got more
pastors retiring, more pastorsgraying at any point in history,
like it is coming like afreight train, and so part of

(39:06):
what we're recognizing is man.
We need to do a better job atequipping churches to follow up
on kids who make decisions, andI love the church.
You know my story.
I fell in love with the churchlong before I knew who Jesus was
.
But we found a gap and I wantto say it respectfully.
The gap, brad, was that kidswere making decisions at our
events and then we would gettheir information and then we

(39:28):
would follow up with those kidsand we did a huge survey,
qualitative and quantitativeanalysis on that of the actual
students who made the decisionsand what we found was 90 plus
percent of them never had afollow-up conversation with an
adult about that decision.
90% of the kids who stand upand say at CY events I want to
go into ministry, 90% of thosekids no one ever talked to them

(39:51):
about it again.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
So that's crazy.
It is crazy.
Can we actually back up for twoseconds?
When did you feel the call Like?
When did you recognize yourcall for ministry?

Speaker 2 (40:03):
I feel compelled into ministry, and that's different.
I think there are people Do youfeel the call Like when did you
recognize your call forministry?
I feel compelled in a ministryand that's different.
I think there are people whofeel called.
They get this supernaturalthing that happens in their life
.
I never had that.
That was not my story.
You feel like you choseministry.
I felt compelled to do it.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah, so when did that?

Speaker 2 (40:19):
happen.
I was probably I don't knowthat it was ever just a single
moment where, like I try my bestto attribute it to oh, it was
the sermon that a guy preachedin all of Missouri.
You know it was this missiontrip I took, but honestly, it
was a culmination of God, justkind of speaking to me saying I
know you could go do that.
You know people are like, well,if you could do anything else

(40:41):
besides ministry, you should doit.
I'm like that's not my attitude.
There's a million other things.
I would have been a really,really good attorney.
I have no doubt I could havedone it.
I was going to go into politics.
I would have been really goodat that and I would have been
successful at it.
I don't mind saying that, butChrist's love compelled me.
I was convinced that one mandied, therefore all died, that
those who live should no longer.
I was raised again and fromthat point on I just said man,

(41:02):
lord, you purchased my life.
I feel like I owe you a returnon that investment and I feel
compelled to give you the bestof who I am because of what you
gave to me.
And it was more of a mentaldecision of saying God, I want
to give you my life more than itwas some moment where I felt
like the Holy Spirit spoke to me.
My father-in-law sorry, mywife's grandfather had that.

(41:23):
He was the holy spirit.
Like spoke to me myfather-in-law sorry, my wife's
grandfather had that.
He was picking corn in a fieldin arkansas.
God spoke to him going toministry.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
I didn't get that same.
That's my story, is it?
No, not at all.
Never picked corn in arkansas,he was just working as a farmer.
Um no, that's incredible.
So you're a very like, I wouldsay, disciplined person.
So like it's not hard for me toimagine you just being like this
is what I'm gonna do and goingand doing it.

(41:48):
But I also know you and I knowthat there are probably people
that you look back on and it'slike I don't know if I like.
Are there those people thatit's like I don't?
I don't really know if I wouldbe here or if I would have made
it or if I would have stuck withit if it wasn't for this
person's influence in my life.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
Man that that probably hit even more after,
after I made the decision to gointo ministry.
There are a few times I wantedto quit.
I mean, one time I literallyhad the LSAT book sitting next
to me and I was.
I was headed at home and I wasstudying it because I was going
to.
I was headed at home and I wasstudying it because I was like
I'm done with this ministrystuff.
We're going to law school.
I told Janice we were married.
I was like this sucks.
Sorry, I probably shouldn't sayit in the podcast.

(42:29):
I hate this.
I didn't grow up in a Christianhome, so that's a polite
version for me.
I was just like this ismiserable.
I hate this.
Ministry is horrible.
I had a couple of differenttimes I wanted to quit at two
different churches and there aredifferent individuals.
I think that, well, holy Spiritwon.
But then there's some peoplethat really pulled me out of it

(42:51):
and showed me the healthy sideof ministry.
I had some leaders in my lifethat really restored my love for
the church and my belief in it,and so one of those would be a
guy named Dick Williams who'spassed away now.
His son, joe, is up at New Lifein Arkansas, I was really
discouraged with the church.
My first experience was a littledifficult and felt like I got

(43:12):
pushed out of this place when wewere having a lot of what I
felt was a lot of success.
But because I was young and itwas a big church, didn't feel
like they honored that because Iwasn't the guy that my new boss
had picked and so, yeah, I wasreally frustrated and so I had
an executive pastor tell me likeman, you're doing a great job,
you're killing it, he goes, butyou're never going to make it
here because you're not theperson he chose, but Dick

(43:35):
Williams.
I went to work for him and hereally restored my faith in the
church.
I had another rocky run at achurch and I wanted to quit.
That's when I had my LSAT and Iwent to work for a guy named
Scott Greer and Scott Greerhelped recultivate my heart and
love for the church and sothere's been other people in my
life that have done that, butthose are a couple.
Andy Hanson would be another one.

(43:55):
I'd say you know, love Andy.
Who's that?
He's a former president ofChrist in Youth youth still on
staff with us.
I love andy.
If you're watching on videohe's, he's everywhere he's back
here.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, I love him there.
He is right next to jason oh,my word.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
I did not know that was there jason, those are
everywhere I know it annoys me.
There's one in the bathroom theother day.
Don't touch it who started that?

Speaker 1 (44:18):
do we know?
I don't have any idea, but it'sours.
Uh, okay, anyway, back to ourour for real conversation kids
not following up.
Yeah, yeah, but having peoplethat that are like for you and
that are like discerning voicesin your life, you know, helped
you to like stay the course andcontinue to be in ministry.

(44:38):
And we were learning.
You were saying the reason Iasked that is because you were
saying we were learning that alot of kids felt like they had
not had that same support.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yeah, we found out that just the majority of
churches did not have a pathwayto follow up.
And I don't want to throw shadeat youth pastors here.
I don't think there's anyhealth in that these guys or
these girls.
They get back from a trip,they're getting ready to lead a
missions trip, or maybe in asmaller church it might be a VBS
or even a larger church theremight be something going on, or
they've got fall kickoff comingup a million things or they're

(45:13):
dealing with this kid that's gota porn addiction, or these
adult leaders are going througha divorce, or they're so tired
from summer that now they justneed a break.
And things happen, man, andsometimes when there's no plan,
nothing gets executed.
And so what we're working onright now is just giving a youth
pastor really actually givingthe kid their plan of how

(45:34):
they're going to follow up onwhat God's doing in their heart
and their life, but also helpinga youth pastor have some really
tactical things.
That Caitlin's building.
I think you're going to bringher on to talk about it.
She's really building somereally tactical things.
That Caitlin's building.
I think you're going to bringher on to talk about it.
She's really building somereally tactical ways that a
youth pastor can track whathappened to that kid.
But it is difficult, man.
I mean, the harvest isplentiful, the workers are few
and I think, brad, if I'm goingto be really candid with you,

(45:55):
you know, pretty direct, I don'tknow that the workers are few,
few.
I I right now, I I think theholy spirit is right on that but
I think part of the reason whythey are few is that we never
followed up with them, like wejust like there was that, that
bible translator that was goingto go to work and and, and she
had a gift in linguistics and wenever followed up.
There was a future worshippastor that your church not

(46:18):
necessarily your church, but achurch can't find like yeah,
well, they, they were removedeight years ago.
And that children's pastor thatyou need so bad, well, yeah,
she was there six years ago andshe'd be available now if you
would have followed up and Istart looking around, like the
amount of preachers and pastorsthat we've just left.
It's interesting.
We followed up with all thosekids and they basically, in the

(46:38):
quantitative analysis, theywould go through and click.
Did you pursue ministry?
Yes?
Different set of questions.
Did you pursue ministry?
No Different set of questions.
The one that pursued the onesthat did it was the same thing
over and over.
They had an adult that followedup and then it believed with
them and they were givenopportunities to serve.
Like that hands down, that'swhat it was.
The ones who did not.

(46:59):
Everyone wants to say it'sparents.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
That is a false narrative that pastors are are
are putting out and we're not.
I want to be very clear.
This isn't like a kitschy thingthat we made up.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
No, this is.
This is data from a lot.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Is it data or data?
Data yes, yes, both dead data.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Yeah, from hundreds, yes, yes, yes, a strong sample
hundreds and hundreds ofstudents who have been in this
position yeah, and I think theamount who said that parents are
the reason they didn't pursueit was like six percent or less.
I think it was actually underfive percent, but I don't want
to, I don't want to overstate it, so let's say six to be
conservative yeah it was undersix percent.
I believe it's under fivepercent said that the parents

(47:41):
are the reason they didn do it,but we always want to say, oh,
it's their parents.
Their parents don't want themto.
Because that narrative soundsgood, it feels good, because we
all know that one parent, whichis true in this.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
many cases right, but far and away the biggest reason
that students go into ministryis because they have an adult
who believes in them.
Yeah, and they are givenopportunities to serve.
Hands down.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
And we can address this issue of the average age
being 54 and 25% are out toretire if we get on it right now
.
But it means we've got tofollow up.
We got to follow up.
We got to follow up.
So you know we have to followthrough so students can follow
up.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
No, I switched that wrong, we got to follow up so
they can follow up.
No, I switched that wrong.
We gotta follow up so they canfollow through the follow
through initiative yes yeah, butI mean it's already starting.
You know, like this isn't, thisisn't an eight years from now
problem like their churches.
There are people listening tothis podcast right now who have
had open positions on theirchurch staffs for years because

(48:39):
it's like we can't find theright person.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
The amount of calls I get of churches looking for
youth pastors or worship pastors, whatever else it is.
My inbox is loaded with them.
I'm like sorry man, they wereat our events or they were at a
camp and it's not an issue tosee out why.
Like this has happened at camps, it's happening everywhere.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, we've got to really come alongside our
churches and give them tools,and give the kid tools to follow
up so they can follow throughyeah, and we're not going to
like lean super heavy into thespecifics of that because, like
you said, we're going to followup on this conversation, uh,
next week with with caitlin anda guy named matt stevens at
calvary christian church.
They're doing some really coolthings out there, um, with all

(49:21):
this as well, and get to kind ofget into the nitty-gritty on
that.
But, um, wanted to hear kind ofyour heart for it and hear you
talk about.
I think you do a really goodjob of painting a picture of the
stakes, because the stakes arehigh, real high.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's like if, if we don'taddress this now, because if we

(49:42):
get to a point, it's one ofthose things where it's like, if
we get to't address this now,because if we get to a point,
it's one of those things whereit's like, if we get to a point
where we're kind of at thatmoment where people are starting
to walk out the door and retire, go to their well-earned and
well-deserved seasons of rest,you know, um, it's not a problem
that we can solve overnight no,it's not.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
And and I want to say that it's it's a compounded
problem by second thing.
And, man, if there are churchleaders listening to this, I
need you to key in now.
You can't just open the frontdoor and not close the back door
.
And what I mean by that is wehave so many people that are
leaving ministry and I want tosay, man, in any job you need to

(50:25):
have some level of grit.
Things get hard.
I've had hard ministries.
There have been moments I'vewanted to quit.
I just acknowledge that, evenon the podcast.
But we've got to figure out how.
If you've raised a Timothy upfrom your church, do you know
where they are?
Do you know how they're doing?
Have you followed up as aneldership, with any of your
responsibility of tracking them,of knowing how they're doing?

(50:46):
And if you're a youth pastorright now listening, oh yeah, my
church has sent me.
They've never followed up on me.
Okay, great.
What about the church you'reworking at right now?
How good are you at followingup with the kids that have been
raised up, not just under youryouth ministry, but under the
prior youth ministry, two, threedecades before you ever got

(51:08):
there?
We've got to figure out how tomake sure we're doing good care
on the back end to keep thatretention high.
And, man, I think you do thatby elderships praying for the
Timothys on a regular basis.
And when I say Timothy, that isnot like Timothys.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Gendered yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
I don't mean that.
Timothys, yeah, timothys.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
Yeah, you know I'm passionate about seeing more
young ladies, like your daughter.
Yeah, my daughter's going toministry.
But at the same time, what Iwould say is like, what's your
plan as a church?
How are you following up?
Do you know where they are?
Are you praying for them on aregular basis?
Are you calling them and askingthem?
Are you telling and saying isthere anything I can be praying
for?
Are you calling and saying, hey, if you get discouraged, we

(51:38):
want to help you.
Like we want to help nurtureyou back in and help get you to
a healthy place?
How's your marriage going?
How are you being paid?
Like, making sure we're payingpeople an appropriate salary so
they can stay in so many things.
I mean a lot of youth ministry,forums and the amount of people
there that are just being paidpoorly.
Like church, we've got to makesure that we are paying these

(51:58):
people an appropriate wage,regardless whether you pastor,
youth pastor, children's pastor.
Like, make sure we're doingthat as well, and I champion
that.
I mean I really, I really do so.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
You thought you could send this to your senior pastor
.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
So you need to listen to this.
But close the back door in yourtimothy's and make sure,
whether on the mission field orthey're across town, churches
have got to follow up.
In the timothy's they'vealready taken responsibility for
sending out.
You know the same way.
They got to follow up.
Yeah, they got to follow up Imean it's, it's a.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
It circles back to the conversation we were having
earlier, where it's like a hugepart of the reason that that
back door even exists is becausewe don't pay people maybe what
we should be paying them.
We don't respect work-lifebalance very well in ministry a
lot.
You know, there are all ofthese like cultural things that
it's like these problems kind ofsolve each other in some.

(52:48):
Not solve each other, but helpeach other in some ways.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Um, as well, and yeah , and brad, I think one part of
it I mean.
I would tell youth pastors outthere, by far and large, youth
pastors are making more thanyouth pastors ever made in the
history of youth ministry I,which is great.
I mean, generally speaking theyare, and I know that sometimes
you know whether it be a Boomeror a Gen Z.
They can look at it and say,well, man, we didn't make that
much when we were doing it.
It's like, okay, well, thatwasn't healthy either.
Like I know, you didn't makethat much money, but it wasn't

(53:14):
healthy.
Like I remember and I'm notgoing to allude to whether
they're gone years past, I cantell you it's been a long time
ago Found out that one of ourstaff members and it's been
probably almost about 20 yearsago, not quite Found out.

(53:34):
We had a staff member that wasactually on food stamps and a
full-time staff member, and Iwept when I found out.
I wept and I was angry when Ifound out.
And we've got people using thename of Jesus in a way.
And I understand, man, if thereare issues in churches.
Sometimes I'm like, man, do anaudit and see what you can do.
I don't know all of yourchurch's finances, I got to

(53:57):
paint with a very broad brush,but I would generally say, man,
do like we did a massivenational survey of churches not
for profits, all of it and said,man, this is the appropriate
wage people need to be paid at,and and we chose to say we don't
want to be in the 90thpercentile, but I don't want to
be in the 50th percentile.
So, mark hansen, what do youwant to be?
And I was like I want to be inthe 75th percentile.

(54:17):
That's where I want us to be,like that's a really healthy
place to be.
It's not too excessive and it'snot too low.
But for churches to really takethat seriously, before they go
hiring more staff, man, takecare of the ones you already
have.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
well, yeah, that's a that's a, a tight line that
you've been willing to to walkis like when do we like?
A lot of times we get to placesin in our in our work life when
we say this would be so mucheasier if I had someone else
working alongside me on this, orsomeone working under me

(54:52):
helping take care of this orwhatever.
When do we actually need thatlike?
When is it actually necessaryfor us to bring another person
into a new position?
Versus can we actuallyaccommodate this with our
current staffing and take themoney that we would have paid
somebody else and reinvest itback into our staff?

(55:12):
Because I do think on churchstaffs, nonprofit staffs a lot
of companies operate this way.
The solution to the problem alot of times is like okay, let's
go hire somebody to do this jobfor us, and that's something
that you've had to navigate aswell.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Yeah, and, honestly, it's not just take care of our
staff.
That is definitely a part of it.
The other part is I want tokeep prices down for kids.
Yeah, like I want to see morestudents.
You know it's camps expensive,man, it just is.
But I want to keep that barrierto entry as healthy as we can
possibly keep it and so makingsure that we don't get
overstaffed and that we're notpaying staff at unhealthy wages,

(55:45):
too high or too low.
I think both those things arethings that we've got to pay
attention to and watch.
But no, we take the benefitpackage that we offer our staff
something seriously, and I wouldjust encourage churches to do
the same and there are a lotmore churches out there, man,
that do this really, really well.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
It's definitely been a point of emphasis for a lot of
churches, absolutely, and it'sthe best I've seen in all my
years of ministry.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
This is the healthiest I've ever seen.
It Great, and I see a lot ofchurches starting to take this
seriously.
But honestly, as you seemillennials and Gen Z move into
leadership, I think it's onlygoing to get healthier because
they've lived under it.
That's what happened to Gen Xpeople like me.
It was so hard in ministry thatwe were like man, we're going
to do everything I can to makesure that people not that I

(56:30):
don't want them to experiencepain, but that's unnecessary
pain that doesn't have to bethere.
There's no doubt that I alsodon't have a problem with people
saying that, man, I choose tolive hardship.
Paul, you look at his life.
He wasn't paid a good wage andso I want to be careful that we

(56:52):
don't raise a group of peoplewho aren't willing to sacrifice.
And there are places andmargins where you should
sacrifice.
I don't doubt that.
But the tension is like hey,man, let's be careful that we're
doing the things that we can doto make sure we're taking care
of our people the best, the bestof our ability because the flip
side of that coin is takingadvantage of people.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Yeah, and you don't want to do that?

Speaker 2 (57:10):
no, but I also know I don't want to lose the call to
sacrifice either.
I think we have to keep thattension.
We got to keep that, that inour in our hand as well.
Yeah, um, you know, when youyou hear paul's story, you know
he was you, you know content inall things, whether he was in
plenty, which he was, you knowor in little or in little you
know he was in both.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
Yeah, it's good stuff .
All right, we are honing in onthe end of our time here.
Okay Loaded question.
Is there anything left unsaid?
Is there anything you feel like?
Oh man, I would have reallyloved for this conversation to
have gone here and it didn't Idon't think so I only grab you
like once a year.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
So I don't think so, I think just making sure that I
don't want you pastors toweaponize this conversation when
it comes to finances.
Um, make sure that you are partof the solution, not just part
of the problem.
Yeah, you know, make sure.
Make sure that, man, before youstart asking for you know more
money.
Are you actually putting in ahard day's work?
Are you putting in your 40 to50 hours a week and actually

(58:10):
hustling?
Are you bringing growth to yourchurch?
Are you bringing health to yourchurch?
Are you actually a contributoror are you just a consumer?
Because I feel like people canweaponize this conversation
about salary, Like I need tomake more money.
It's like, yeah, maybe you needto do more work.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Right, I was actually talking to a youth pastor I
respect a lot and he's like Imean, when the going gets tough,
your options are to walk awayor to fight to make it the kind
of place that you want to stay.
Exactly, you know, and I'mgoing to fight to make this the
kind of place that I want tostay.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
But I, some guys and some girls out there that
probably don't make a lot ofmoney, that don't do a lot of
work and and I think, man, theyprobably do some
self-examination before theywalk into, you know, the senior
pastor's office or an executive,or to an eldership, you know
you better search your own heartand and you should really
examine the fruit, not the fruitthe Holy spirit is producing.
But the fruit of your labor canbe measured, can be weighed,

(59:00):
and and make sure that you knowif, if a worker's worthy of his
wage, better make sure you'redoing the work yeah, good stuff.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Thanks for being here , jason.
You bet man 50 episodes.
Come on now we did it great job, pikel, thanks, yeah, what do
you call him?
Uh?
Why do we call you that Paykel?

Speaker 3 (59:21):
It goes all the way back to Believe in 2018,
actually, I'm pretty sure wewent to Believe Florida and
there were like three of usthere named Michael it was me,
mike Branton and I don'tremember who the other one was,
but there were three.
There were three and there werea couple of guys that were on

(59:42):
the tour and they're big fans ofof a cartoon on Cartoon Network
.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
Rick and Morty called Rick and Morty, it's not an
immediately recommendablepodcast or cartoon show.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
But there there's an episode where I'll explain this
as briefly as I can, becausethere's just a lot that goes
into it.
There's an episode where thecharacters Rick and Morty are
watching interdimensional cabletelevision where they can change
the channel on the TV and everynew channel is like just a
random channel in a random otherdimension than the one that
they live in, other dimensionthan the one that they live in,

(01:00:25):
and uh, they're watching onechannel and it's like a news
anchor, yeah, named michael, andthey get bored and they change
the channel and it's like acooking show with this.
The host is named pikel gotchaand they come to find out that
michael and pikel are actuallyconjoined twins and they have to
film their programs at the sametime and it just turns into
chaos.
That is chaos.
In order to make sure that wewere keeping straight who's who,

(01:00:48):
I think they decided to go withMike, michael and Pichel.
Okay, and so I was Pichel.
Instead of getting irritated orannoyed or offended or anything
, I decided to own it and it hasstuck all these years later,
gloriously.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Yeah, I do have one, so he's named after a D-list
character on one episode of.
Rick and Morty yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
You can cut this, but I got to ask you one last
personal question.
We're not going to cut it.
Go, you can cut it, it's okay,Just bro.
Just bro, your NFL fan base.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
I can't.
Why are we doing this right now?

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
I think Brad wants to cut it down your NFL fan base
have got to be some of thebiggest whiners right now.
Win more games.
Why no one's whining?
Oh my word, it's blowing up inmy feed all over the place.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
The algorithm is feeding you what you want to see
.
I don't want to see it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Okay, I don't want to see it but it is like the
amount of people blaming theChiefs for why your team did not
make the playoffs.
You didn't want to play us,it's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
No, bro, we played you and we beat you.
You didn't want to play us now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Okay, win more games.
It's not our job to get youinto the playoffs.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
No one said it was your job to get us into the
playoffs.
They just said you don't wantto play us.
He's a Bengals fan.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
If you don't know this, he's a Bengals fan.
I'm a Chiefs fan.
The amount of garbage theChiefs are getting for not
getting your team into theplayoffs, as if that was our job
, banter, I don okay well,here's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
Joe Burrow blew Patrick Mahomes out of the water
in every imaginable statisticJoe Burrow is amazing.
So you just wait till we have aa real defense that that would
help, and uh tell me to get that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
I'm storming back next year.
Tell me to get that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
The first eight weeks we also had an injured, joe
Burrow, like there was the wholewrist thing at the beginning of
the season, like it's not justlike ah, we farted away eight
games but why can't they just golike oh, we didn't make it,
it's our fault because that's nofun.
Okay, would you do that if itwas the chiefs?

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
I I mean I did that for decades make out of all?
No for decades, for decades, wewere the worst a lot of 2 and
14.
Bingo seasons.
2 and 12 seasons.
I know I live that as a cheesefan.
It was brutal, brutal on thatnote.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Uh, I would love for you to go ahead and read our
blessing over our beautifullisteners.
Are you still?

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
upset over all this.
So who you?
Pulling for right now, at thispoint, the recording you have
ravens bills.
Who wins for bills?
I hope, really.
I think.
I want the bills.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
You have Ravens Bills .
Who wins Bills?
I hope Really.
I think I want the Bills ingeneral.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Okay, all right Over the Chiefs.
Yes, what do you?

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
mean over the Chiefs Chiefs to Texans?
Who wins that game?
Chiefs, you think so?

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
All right, I think Texas defense is pretty good.
I want Chiefs-Bills again.
Do you?
Do you and you want the Billsto be the Chiefs?
Okay, bad, or going to be close?
I always want it to be close,okay, all right.
Well, sorry, we pulled all ofour starters.
I forgive you.
Okay, blessing, sorry, it'shard to shift right now.

(01:03:59):
May God show you grace andbless you.
May he make his face shine onyou.
May you experience the love ofChrist, through whom God gives
you the fullness of life.
May you be strengthened by hispower and may Christ himself

(01:04:22):
make his home in your heart,that you would be full of his
love and grace and that thoseyou serve would see Jesus in you
.
That's it, amen.
Thanks, man.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
Thanks, michael, of course, michael.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Today's episode was produced by Michael Hester,
lauren Bryan and myself.
Thank you so much to Jason forbeing here.
Really is a treasure and alwaysgreat to talk to him and hear
from his heart about why we'redoing the things we're doing
here at CIOI.
If you liked what you heard, besure to subscribe to our show
on YouTube or wherever youlisten to podcasts.

(01:05:05):
We'll be back in a couple weeks, so I don't know what we're
talking about.
I've gotten really bad aboutthat.
I don't know what we're talkingabout in two weeks, but we'll
be back, I promise.
In the meantime, feel free toreach out to us on the CY
community group or at podcast atCYcom.
We'll see you next time, thankyou.