BTE4.13 Yes, we are talking about mental health again! with Jordan Francis and Logan Sperry

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Brad Warren.
This is Beyond the Event, ayouth ministry podcast presented
by Christ in Youth, where wehelp you maintain momentum
between the mountaintops.
We are going to have a very,very important conversation
today about mental health instudents Maybe not something
that they're thinking a lotabout, maybe not something that

(00:24):
you're thinking a lot about, butsomething that is definitely
present and, um, definitelysomething that is important and
worthy of our time.
And to help us out, uh, as wekind of explore that topic, uh,
we're going to bring in JordanFrancis, who is maybe the most
qualified person in the world,uh, to have this conversation.

(00:44):
Maybe the most qualified personin the world to have this
conversation.
Jordan, among other things, he'sthe host of the RLTK podcast,
real Talk, which is from ReframeYouth, a company that he
founded and runs thatspecifically works with kind of
curriculum that's driven towardsan urban audience.
Those are all the things hedoes that don't really relate to

(01:06):
what we're talking about today.
What does is that he is both ayouth pastor he's a volunteer
youth pastor at Revive Church inArlington, texas and is a
licensed professional counselor.
So he is a mental health expert, he is a youth ministry expert
and is just a great guy who Ithink is going to have a lot of
really important and insightfulthings to say to us about how we

(01:29):
engage with students as theynavigate mental health issues in
their own lives.
Before we get to thatconversation, though, logan's
here.
Hi, logan Hi.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Hey, so glad to be here.
I really you know long timelistener, first time call-in
first, first time long time.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Who?
Yeah, it's, it's just a treatto have you here.
Uh, here's the deal.
Normally I'm gonna say like 90of the time our co-host is
somebody who works inprogramming.
Yeah, the classics, theclassics, right caleb lane.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
We love them.
We love them.
And you were like let's groundsomebody off the street.
You found me.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Well, actually someone canceled and you were
the no.
That actually no, no, no, no,no.
Um couldn't get jason, so youasked me.
I wanted to have you on thispodcast because you represent a
part of our building that hasn'treally gotten a chance to be

(02:33):
here before, and that part isthe part.
So, like our programmers, ourlat leads, they're thinking a
lot about creating goodexperiences for you and your
students, either at Superstarduring the spring or with Move,
mix and Engage during thesummers.
But there's a whole part of ourbuilding, the church relations
team, and we don't think aboutthat.

(02:54):
We think about you.
Youth pastor Logan spends allday, every day, thinking about
how CIY can serve youth pastors,while that is his job.
That is yeah, and so it's alittle bit of a different
perspective.
Yeah, and I wanted to know.

(03:15):
So I'm going to put you on thespot a little bit and ask you a
question that I hope will be anencouragement to our listeners,
to youth pastors who arelistening to this, which is, you
work with and talk to hundredsof churches, uh, throughout the
course of a year, and I want toknow just what is encouraging to
you about the church, right?

Speaker 2 (03:37):
now.
Oh man, what is encouraging tome about the church right now?

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Um man, I think um told you I was putting you on
the spot.
Yeah, you did, you put me on, Ireally did.
I uh okay.
So I I think the thing rightnow that, um, I have, uh, just

(04:05):
in in very, just, in very recentconversations, gotten to have
and see is, I think some of thismight even be a little bit of a
response, just post-COVID.
Listen, COVID was tough oneverybody and was just like a
really hard time, especiallymaybe pertinent to this
conversation that we're havingwith Jordan later on mental

(04:26):
health and the implications of atime like that.
Then on mental health andseeing kind of what's come from
that Like was a what I woulddeem maybe a negative time of
like man, like things that werehard were amplified because of
COVID and things like that.
And I think we've switched intonow like the church's response

(04:47):
and specifically like youth andchildren's pastors response
post-COVID is you are seeingpeople the people that I talk to
are passionate and care a lotabout their ministries and
specifically the people thatmake up their ministries the
students, the kids.
They want to be there, they'redriven to be there, they're

(05:08):
passionate to be there, Right?
That doesn't mean that it's notdifficult at times, that it's
not hard, that you don't havedays where you're like, maybe I
don't want to do this anymore.
Right, I think that's natural,yeah, but like the majority, I

(05:44):
think, right coming out of atime like that, then, to like
really be reinvigorated, maybein a way of like how lucky we
are to get to meet in person,minister to students and kids,
to take them out for lunch, totake them to camps and, and uh,
pastor them.
Um, I just am continuouslyencouraged by people being
passionate about the ministry ofJesus and getting to be his
hands and feet.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
So that's, I'm really interesting.
That is is going to cause me togo off on a little tangent here
.
Um, talked about the days whereyouth pastors like maybe I
don't want to do this anymorewhich, every youth you were in
ministry every pastor, scratch,youth pastor, everybody who

(06:17):
works in churches is going tohave those days, and I want to
just talk about that for asecond because I don't think we
acknowledge enough that, likethere is an enemy and he doesn't
want you doing what you'redoing.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, oh yeah, there's like we don't talk about
that enough.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Of course you're going to have bad ministry days.
You know what I mean.
There are, like forces that areactively fighting against you
being effective at your job nodoubt Crazy.
So let's talk to that youthpastor for a second, because we
talked to those too, right?
Yeah, we talked to those peoplewhen they're having bad days

(07:04):
and that sucks.
Yeah, it's really not fun.
It's really a horrible thing.
And I want to just kind of likesay the thing that I'm
encouraged about is I also feellike post-COVID, we're seeing a
lot more longevity.
It feels like there's lessturnover in ministry than before

(07:28):
, and maybe that's just aperception thing, maybe that's
not real.
I have no idea.

Speaker 4 (07:31):
To be honest, but I'll pull the data yeah, can you
run a report for me real quick,michael?
Yeah, yeah totally um.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
But yeah, I don't know, I don't know why I said
that.
Like, yeah, I don't know, Idon't know why I said that like
ministry's hard and I'mencouraged that people are like
digging their heels in andsticking it out.
But also I want you to knowthat, like, we love you and know
that it's really difficult tooyeah, it can absolutely be

(08:03):
difficult.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
And in those times where, where you feel like
quitting, I think the temptationat times can be like am I good
enough?
Am I meant for this?
Am I all of these things?
And to ask these internalquestions and the truth is like,

(08:24):
no, you aren't good enough,absolutely not.
No, if we were all to standright on our own accolades and
whatever, we're not good enough.
And it's by the grace of Jesusthat we have a purpose, that we
have kingdom work to do, and sowhat we truly all need is just

(08:48):
more of the gospel.
And so in those days when youare feeling that, look to the
gospel, look to what Jesus hasdone and how he's redeemed,
restored, justified you.
He's called you innocent, hehas made you innocent, he took
you out of that courtroom andnow you stand in grace.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Are you reading anything that talks about that?

Speaker 2 (09:10):
I am, I am, I'm influenced.
Right now I'm influenced.
Sorry, brad and I are readingthe same book Together, but it's
just like that is.
I say all that because it'sfront of mind.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Oh yeah, it's so pertinent to this conversation,
but it is huge of right.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
You're not good enough, but that's okay.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
Like you're definitely not justified by what
you accomplish between eightand five when you're sitting in
your office.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, it's not.
It, yep, it's.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
God in you, it's right.
It's God using you right it.
It's God using you right.
It's the power of the HolySpirit in you, and so how am I
going to lean on him?

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Good stuff, all right .
Well, we love you and if it's ahard ministry season or day or
year or career for you right now, we're praying for you and also
we just like, want to chat withyou and talk to you, and so
reach out, see how I, you knowit might chat with you and talk
to you.
So reach out, see how I, youknow it might be Logan you get a

(10:09):
hold of, it might be me, itmight be someone else, but we
would love to help you outhowever we can through all of
that.
Okay, we're going to shiftgears Hard left.
Turn to Michael.
What time is it, michael?

Speaker 3 (10:26):
I think it's time for the mailbag.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
Wrong.
It's a good guess though.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
No.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
I'm kidding, it's time for the mailbag.
Yeah, mailbag time.
Guess what?
Logan Youth pastors asked usquestions and now we're going to
ask them to you.
All right, hope you don't messup, do it.
All right, you are justified byhow you respond to these
questions.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
I am Okay.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Exciting and I'm justified by how I select which
questions to ask.
Sweating bullets over here.
Our first question is from MattStevens, a recent guest on the
podcast.
Do you know Matt Boy, do I?

Speaker 2 (11:02):
At.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
Calvary Christian Church.
Yeah, what a doll.
Matt has asked how much proteinis Joel Yates eating?

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Oh man.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
I don't remember if I asked Matt to give us a
question on the air.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
Fantastic the answer to that.
That matt is not enough.
He's gotta right he's.
If he wants to be bulking, he'sgotta be eating more.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
He's gotta be intaking more so I think he does
the like one gram per poundthing, though, right like does
he try to eat a gram of proteinfor every pound that he weighs I
mean, I think maybe he wouldtell you that, but like, does
that does that mean that he is?

Speaker 2 (11:45):
like I mean, I think maybe he would tell you that,
but does that mean that he is?
That's what I'm saying, notenough.
We gotta bump those numbers up.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
Joel Yates, for the listener is on Logan's team and
is the sweetest boy, really justthe nicest person in the entire
world, and also the biggestmeathead on our staff.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
You know what?
I will give joel credit.
He is strong.
He's strong, right, sweet boy,who is also very strong.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
But I mean, if he's wanting to deadlift more, he's
got to eat like more grams ofprotein a day he did yesterday
when we were on our trip.
He said that he could deadliftmore than derrickrick Henry,
pound for pound.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
I'll take that he said.
He even a step further.
He said I am, pound for pound,stronger than that.
That's what he said.
Oh, listeners of this podcastDo with that what you will.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Thank you for that question, matt Truly.
It was a gift.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
JYates at CIY Dotcom.
You can email strength tipsthere and get his macros.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
I think to keep things fair, we need to have
Joel on the podcast sometime.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
That's true.
I might let him get a word in.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
We'll see.
We have a question from BrendanSchloss and he's asking oh, all
my faves, oh, wow, okay, great.
He's asking how do you balanceresponsibilities in youth and
children's ministry?
Any practical advice?

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Wow, that's a great question how do you balance
responsibilities in youth andchildren's ministry?

Speaker 1 (13:15):
I have so much respect for people that have to
do that.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
It's difficult.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
It is insane.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
It's difficult.
Oh my gosh, it's difficult.
We it's funny that actually, atthe end of last year, we were
at a conference where it wasCorey and I we actually got to
talk to people who that, likethat is their responsibility, is
like birth through 18 or oreven birth through college age,
and just you know how do you hitall those age groups and how do
you, you know, minister to themall really well, and and what

(13:45):
does it look like to they weretalking.
What they wanted us to talkabout, it in the framework is
how do you juggle two hats?
And I think that's just that'sthe truth is, um, with you doing
youth and children's, you arejuggling two hats.
Now the cool thing is, uh,sometimes what can be like a, a
tension in ministry is how doesif, if you have somebody right

(14:06):
overseeing kids and you havesomebody overseeing students,
how do we work well together andtransition students between
ministries really well, and you,you see that happen really well
and you see that sometimes beattention, um, right, when it's
one person doing it, it mightbecome a little bit easier.
But also the what we're hittingon right Is this idea of well,
I don't have enough time, and so, um, I think, one of the really

(14:28):
easy ways is to write, say,okay, um, somebody who's living
in that space has to have reallygood time management.
I see the people that do it umreally well, um, have a really
good schedule of.
These are when I do children'sthings, these are when I do kids
things.
These are when I do children'sthings.
These are when I do kids things.
These are when I do things thatpertain to both together and

(14:50):
they're really on top ofschedules.
But I think the most importantthing is how do you equip your
volunteers One thousand percent.
You can't do it all alone and,especially when you have to
juggle those two hats, you haveto rely on a lot of people, and
some people in certain spacesright, they have other staff

(15:12):
that they get to be a part of,that they get to do this with
and you're really overseeingspace.
But for those that are, youdon't have any other staff.
It's just you overseeing thosetwo.
Overseeing those two, man, howyou pour into volunteers, how
you equip volunteers and how youkeep them coming back and
wanting to serve with you andserve those students and those

(15:32):
kids is really going to be a bigmake or break it, because the
truth is you're never going tohave enough time.
But if you have people who arereally bought in, sold out and
volunteering and feel loved as avolunteer in your ministry,
it's going to make all thedifference.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, I think you're 10,000% right of
responsibilities that everychurch has for volunteers.
I feel like like every churchhas a way for volunteers to like
be calling whatever you wantsmall group leaders, sunday

(16:11):
school teachers, whatever youknow, teaching in front of a
large group, leading worship,all of these types of things.
But I was talking to a youthpastor who's in this situation
and he has a volunteer who islike an accountant and kind of
like right-brained and thinks alot that way, who does all of

(16:31):
his volunteer scheduling for himand it's like, if you can, that
doesn't feel like a thing thatyou want to or should let go of.
Yeah, but if you can empowersomebody to do that or to take
something that's verytime-consuming off of your plate
.
Because I do also feel bad forpeople who have job descriptions

(16:51):
that are frank.
I'm going to be honest If you'redoing youth and kids, that's
too much, that's too big of ajob description and some
churches are in a position wherethat's the reality.
But that doesn't mean thatthat's a reasonable thing for
one person to do really well.
But the thing you get robbed ofis time to like dream, you know

(17:12):
, time to explore like whatcould this be?
What?
What's an idea that I have?
How could this play out?
How could this be better?
Yeah, and if you can get someof those things off your plate
and there are people in yourcongregation who are willing and
able to do them like you're,you're so right.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
That's such good advice, logan and I think the
heart, like I will speak to,like also the like it can be
hard to get volunteers, likethere are a lot of, there are a
lot, a lot of times I talk topeople and it's like just one of
the things the pain points intheir ministry is getting enough
volunteers or getting morevolunteers and constantly

(17:50):
feeling short on volunteers.
And I think that one of the youknow right, figuring out how to
recruit them is one thing andfiguring out how to utilize also
your whole church right,getting senior pastor, lead
pastor involved, otherministries in the church of

(18:10):
finding those people and maybedirecting them to your ministry
Like that's a spot that theycould serve in, I think is huge.
That way you're not justlimited to your own purview and
what's right in front of you,but you get more people involved
in that.
I think that's a big part of it.
But what you do with volunteerswhen you get them, I think is a
huge, huge piece to this is howdo I make them feel a part of

(18:33):
the mission of this ministry?
And not like a cog in a machine.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, and then how do I?

Speaker 2 (18:38):
constantly encourage them and show them their value
so that they keep wanting tocome back?
And also, how do I respecttheir time, their boundaries?
Um, I think can help in justkeeping a longevity of a
volunteer.
You're always going to havepeople that move and things like
that and you'll always losesome Um, but there are some.

(18:59):
Maybe you might be able to keepum by just really figuring out
and getting creative.
I try to do this in my job allthe time.
Is, how can we be creativeabout loving youth and
children's pastors?
And I would encourage any youth, any pastor in this situation.
How do I make my volunteersfeel loved, known and valued?
1000%.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
I love it Any more, yeah, we have a question from an
anonymous listener.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
That's not true.
It's from Matt Berry.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Matt Berry Medway.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
Church.
Ohio and Matt is asking haveyou seen or heard any youth
groups that are killing it inthe student leadership team
department?
What are some of the mainthings that they're doing with
their student leaders?

Speaker 1 (19:45):
In the student leadership department hmm,
jeremy stevenson does this sowell talk about it okay, but
then you have to think of onewhile I've got one, but mine's,
mine's a little bit different oh, spicy, okay, um, jeremy
stevenson, christchurch,jacksonville, florida.

(20:05):
He's been a guest on the showbefore actually talking about
this um I believe the episodewas in season one and called the
perfect student leader orsomething like that um, so you
can actually go back and listento that whole thing, and he's
got a lot of great things to sayabout this.

(20:25):
But one of the biggest piecesof that puzzle for him is
something that our boss, jasonFrench, cares a lot about right
now, which is he has a kitschyphrase for it that I'm not going
to be able to remember.
But you have to be willing tosacrifice quality in order to

(20:46):
give students an opportunity toserve.
Um, and Jeremy talks about thisall the time.
He's like, yep, we're going toput middle school boys in the
lighting booth and they're goingto miss cues, and that's okay,
um, but if we're going toempower people because it starts
, then right, and then you canmove students through and help

(21:07):
them to get more and moreinvolved and discover who God
has created them to be withinyour ministry, and then be
willing to let go of things andscheduling and programming for
their um like welcome time, liketheir mc fun and games,

(21:30):
announcements time, like he justdelegated all of that to this
student and then she ended upbecoming an mc for move and now
I was wanting to go intoministry and it's like the thing
I'll say and I'm gonna let talkis we've talked about this
several times.
In our research, as we werepreparing for this vocational

(21:52):
ministry initiative, we foundthat and I hope you're tired of
hearing this because we've saidit so many times on this podcast
that students who came throughon their decision to go into
vocational ministry had twothings in common.
One was an adult in their intheir life who cared about them

(22:13):
and cared about their calling toministry, and the other was
opportunities to serve.
Um, and yeah, it's not gonna beperfect, but you gotta let them
do it.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, no doubt there's a lot of things popping
into my head when it comes tospecific people, specific
ministries.
I actually thought of preteenministries.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
And so there's a guy, sean Sweet, who's a friend of
CIY, runs 45org Um, who talks alot about, um, uh, having
preteen leaders and how to givethem leadership.
Um, preteens are in a specificstage of life where they're like
trying to, they're like they'relike talk about it in this way

(22:56):
of riding a bike where, um, Ihave taken the training wheels
off but there's somebody runningbeside me and it's like every
every now and again I can go bymyself, but I also still need
somebody to steady the way alittle bit.
And so, um, there's, uh, he'sgot a lot of good things and got
a lot of good things to say ongetting students in leadership,
specifically in that pre-teenagegroup.
Um, and again in thatpre-teenage group, uh, stephanie

(23:19):
Chase of Champion ForestBaptist Church, somebody who I
got to talk to recently, friendof mine, they have students that
are called LITs, leaders intraining, and they just simply
let them run the ministry and itis like a really there's a few
facets of it of we want to givethem like they're in a specific

(23:42):
life stage where they can startto figure out independence or
not, and so they allow theseLITs to like, hey, we're really
going to let you do this thing.
And that means like when youknow preteen students are coming
to church in the morning fortheir class time and worship

(24:03):
service, um, they're in chargeof having the snacks ready and
the drinks ready, and sometimesthat looks like I spilt the
drinks on the carpet in thehallway getting them there.
And then they're looking atStephanie like, well, what do I
do?
And she's like figure.
She's like, figure it out, what, what do you need?
What do you think you need todo?

(24:23):
She's like figure it out, whatdo you think you need to do?
And challenging them to figureit out on their own and giving
them Now, these students arealso, they've applied for this
sort of thing, they've expressedinterest in this, and it's just
empowering them.
And, hey, if they're, ifthey've had the thought, hey, I

(24:45):
think I want to do this and Ithink I want to lead in this way
, then it's like, hey, we'rereally going to take the steps
into doing this.
Um, uh, one of the things also.
So, two people that you've hadrecently on the podcast, john
John Lee um, I know, um, they doa lot of, uh, student
leadership and a lot of like theway that they're discipling

(25:06):
students and what they want themto be ready for when they hit
high school.
They are thinking about how dowe challenge them in their faith
, and so part of having yourstudents be leaders is
discipling them to be that andthen in consistently challenging
them and pushing them to that.

(25:26):
And sometimes that looks likeand I'm going to steal now from
Matt Stevens, who says sometimesit just looks like asking a
student hey, have you thoughtabout this?
Have you thought about serving?
Have you thought about?
Right, you might have a studentwho's like just a really gifted
conversationalist and it's likemaybe you just ask them the
question hey, have you everthought about writing a sermon?

(25:47):
And they might be like no, andI don't want to, and it's okay,
it's like that's fine.
But also the power of justempowering and asking a student
hey, have you thought aboutdoing this?
I see legitimately encouragingthem, right, speaking life into
them by I see this in you, yep,and I think you could do this

(26:12):
and giving them theencouragement to oh and then,
hey, have you thought aboutdoing this?
And then, if they're like Ihaven't, but I would like to,
then what does it look like tothen take those steps and
disciple them in that and givethem the opportunity in doing so
, and so sometimes it just lookslike giving students a
challenge in front of them andasking them if they would like

(26:33):
to take a step in it.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
I love it.
I love it.
I also thought of what Jasoncalls it activation over
excellence.
Got it?
Matt Stevens, john Lee a coupleof great episodes of the
podcast, yeah, and they touch onthose things in those episodes
as well.

(26:55):
So, matt, specifically in thecontext of like calling it a
vocational ministry, but theprinciple applies across the
board as well.
So, thank you for taking thetime to answer those questions,
logan.
Thank you, michael, for theboard as well.
So, uh, thank you for takingthe time to answer those
questions, logan.
Thank you, michael, for askingthem.
Super well, just really good.
Asker, you want to go talk toJordan?
Let's do it All right, jordan?

(27:19):
Uh, really appreciate you beinghere with us today.
I want to jump into aconversation that I know very
little about, which is mentalhealth in particularly.
We've talked on this podcastbefore about like kind of the
youth pastor side, like howministry is hard and protecting
our mental health is isimportant, but have not not dove

(27:44):
in too far deep into the thestudent side.
So I'm excited to talk to youabout a lot of things but, uh,
curious.
Just to start off with what iskind of the.
What are the stakes here?
Like, as you, you're a licensedcounselor, you're interacting

(28:04):
with these people all the time.
What is it that we're actuallyup against, as I'm going to
speak on behalf of youth pastors, even though I'm not one, yep,
but what is it that we're kindof dealing with here?

Speaker 4 (28:18):
uh, hopefully my answer scares you and both takes
the pressure off.
We don don't know.
Great, I love that we don'tknow what we're dealing with.
We have no idea.
I think their research is stillbeing compiled, right, it's
still coming out and there aresome people who are doing some
great work, writing some greatbooks, doing some great things,
but honestly, we don't know andI think that's important one for

(28:41):
a youth pastor, because Ayou're not supposed to know
because you're not, like, aprofessional in that area, but
it does somewhat intersect withspiritual matters and what it
means to actually disciple ayoung person.
So I think there is thisreality where you have to have
some knowledge and essentially Ithink you have to have enough
knowledge to know what youshould speak into and what you

(29:02):
should hand off if that makessense.
Know what you should speak intoand what you should hand off if
that makes sense, and so, like,what's your role and
responsibility in thediscipleship of a young person
as it pertains to their mentalhealth?
Right, because God is God of itall, right, not just our
salvation, but like, salvationmeans the redemption,
reconciliation of all things.
So that includes our mind right, that includes our emotions and
all those different types ofthings.

(29:23):
So we have to be able to speakinto the discipleship process as
it pertains to those things,but also know when to hand off
to the wisdom that God has givenus in the world.
Right Proverbs is a book in theBible.
For a reason, men of oldobserved the world, came to
conclusions about it, and thatis inspired scripture.
What does that tell us?
That observations, socialsciences, different things of

(29:47):
that nature, are actuallyimportant and like God created
them, and so we should use them,and you're in a unique spot
because you have your foot inboth of those worlds.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, in some ways you can like hand off to
yourself, which is cool.
Most youth pastors cannot dothat and, um, I think you know I
think most youth pastors knowthis and would acknowledge that
like, okay, there's a lot ofdanger actually to wading into

(30:19):
some of these waters that we'renot really trained to wade into.
So I kind of want to play outjust a common scenario that may
arise and where you see thatgoing and what you think might
be happening.
This happens all the time.
You've been to MOVE conferencesbefore, you've helped direct

(30:40):
some of those events and beenaround them.
Move is an incredible placebecause it strips away all of
the things that you're used toright, I don't have my normal
community.
I don't have my normal vices,my video games, my whatever.
I don't have my normal schedule, my normal routine, and when
you get into that space, itallows you to maybe confront

(31:02):
some things that you wouldn'totherwise be able to confront,
and one of those things, I think, is mental health.
So we get a lot of youth pastorswho will say man, I had a
student last night in our youthgroup time and we just had this
really deep, good, richconversation, but they admitted

(31:24):
to me that they've, you know,been cutting themselves.
Let's use that as an example.
That's one that I hear everysingle summer.
It's like, okay, cool, we'regonna have to talk about this,
uh in in a lot of different waysand I want to know from you,
like, what is the youth pastor'sjob and what is not?

Speaker 4 (31:45):
for sure?
Well, I mean, once again, theyouth pastor's job.
And what is not For sure?
Well, I mean, once again, theyouth pastor isn't the parent,
right, and it isn't aprofessional.
So, first of all, if thatperson's a minor which, if
they're in youth ministry theyprobably are your responsibility
is to let their parent orguardian know as quickly as
possible.
That's what's transpiring.
The hard thing about that is wecan often feel like, or we can
be in danger of losing the kid'strust, and so what I always

(32:09):
tell people is don't take awaytheir agency, so give them an
option.
Hey, are you going to tell yourmom?
Am I going to tell your mom?
Are you going to be there whenwe talk to them?
Do you want me to tell them asyou're there?
Do you want to tell them andI'll stand with you?
Do you want to write it down ona piece of paper and hand it to
them?
And so you present them with abunch of options, but all the
options are hey, your parents oran RDN has to know about this,

(32:32):
and so you're giving them thechoice in how it's told, but
it's going to be told.
So you don't lose as muchagency doing it that way.
So, first of all, parents haveto know's their responsibility
to to deal with it and to dowhat's necessary and, if you can
help them and getting the rightresources, getting them
connected with the righttherapist hopefully churches are
um taking initiative to getconnected to therapists in their

(32:54):
community.
Hopefully there's therapistsgoing to their churches that
they trust, that they know arechristian and are going to, uh,
espouse those values.
Or, if they're not, likethey're not going to actively
teach kids things that opposeChristianity, because we also
know that's possible in my space, right, yeah, and so there's

(33:15):
that.
And then I think the otherthing is just following up and
just checking in on them Likeyou would any other kid, right,
hey, how's that going?
What's going on with that?
Have you had any moreconversations with your parents?
Have you got connected withsomebody and just continuing to
check in on them as you wouldany other kid?

Speaker 1 (33:33):
So so, once they've talked to a parent and once
they've talked to a mentalhealth professional, um, is that
a?
That's a pretty safeconversation to wade into at
that point, Right.

Speaker 4 (33:46):
In the sense that I would check on them pastorally,
not like check on them Like youwould any other kid.
If a kid's struggling withpornography, like yo, what's
going on with that, how's thatgoing?
So on and so forth.
I would do it from a pastoralstandpoint.
I wouldn't do it from a try toget into the clinical nature of
things.
And sure, well, well, what youknow I'm saying, like why was
that?
And all those different typesof things that would be

(34:06):
happening in a therapeutic space.
And so you've kind of handed itoff to where it needs to go
right, because obviously thereare legal ramifications.
If you don't, that's reallyimportant.
You need to to handle thatcorrectly.
And so you've done that right.
You've handed it off to theparents and then checking on the
welfare of the student, um, andthen obviously you know,
collaborate with the parents inany way that you can to make
sure that they get the care thatthey need.

(34:28):
But I think it's important tosay here too that spiritual
practices actually help withmental health.
So you as a youth pastor, don'thave to like learn a bunch of
stuff and do a bunch of stuffoutside your wheelhouse.
Yes, you can learn differentthings that are helpful from
therapy, like I think there arethings that we do as therapists

(34:50):
that are beneficial fordiscipleship of youth, but
teaching kids how to read andunderstand scripture, teaching
kids how to pray, teaching kidshow to slow down and engage for
God and hear from him in thequiet, all of those things are
going to be beneficial for theirmental health, right, and those
are similar.
Those are similar practicesthat we teach them in the
therapeutic context.
It's just that God isn'texplicit in our practice of

(35:10):
those things in that context,unless the kid wants it to be,
and so all of it is centeredaround this idea of the window
of tolerance.
So the window of tolerance isthis window that we all have, it
all it varies in shape and sizefor everybody and it's your
capacity to cope with life,right?
So I don't know, your wife comesto you, she says something to

(35:32):
you you don't like and it kindof like moves you up in your
window towards what we wouldcall hyperactive.
So that's like more anxious,you know, maybe more angry, more
jittery, and you kind ofrespond.
However, you would usuallyrespond when you get out of your
window in that direction.
If you stay up hyperactive fortoo long, you bounce down into
what we call hypoactive, whichis where your body shuts down

(35:54):
because you can't stay in thatstate for a prolonged period of
time.
Your body needs to crash out inorder to kind of like reset
itself.
But crashing into hypoactiveisn't good, because that's where
we get a lack of feeling,that's where we get self-harm,
that's where we get suicidalideation and that's where we get
a sense of hopelessness.
Kids sleeping all the time, noteating, and so on and so forth.
And so in both cases, as atherapist and a youth pastor, I

(36:21):
am expanding that kid's window.
I'm expanding their capacity tocope with life, like
understanding the scripture,spending time with God,
understanding who he is and whathe's, like understanding that
he's with us in the midst ofsuffering All of those things
grow our capacity to cope withthe challenges of life.
And in the same way, being atherapist, we learn technical
skills that deal with the moreexplicit mental things, like

(36:45):
explicitly focused on thosethings that help develop our
capacity for life.
And so I would say we'reactually very much partnered in
the same work in different ways.
I think, like I said, youthpastors have to have an idea of
what's going on over here to beable to tie it back into what
they're actually supposed to bedoing over here, which is
developing spiritual practicesin young people.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yeah, I, I you've hit on both of these things.
But I feel like a lot ofstudent pastors have to like
primary fears when it comes tothese types of situations, one
being like I'm handing over myability to pastor this person to
you know somebody else who insome cases, may or may not even

(37:28):
be a believer or whatever, andit sounds like you're saying no,
not true, to that correct.
And then the other one I wantto talk about a little bit is
like damaging the relationshipwhich, when I was in youth
ministry I dealt with this,where it's like this you know

(37:48):
what you have to do for thestudent, because it's the right
thing to do and because it wouldbe illegal not to which is we
gotta talk to somebody, right,but there's that fear in the
back of your mind like thisperson is never gonna talk to me
again.
You know this is this, is it?
You know I got to do this onegood thing and now we're gonna

(38:08):
not not have a relationshipanymore.
Um and you talked about likegiving students agency and
allowing them to like maintainsome control, um, of the
situation and how that kind ofhelps to that end.
I'm curious, like is it moreoften that you see um there

(38:30):
continue to be like wholeness inthat relationship between um
youth pastor and and the student.
Or is that a real fear?
Does that, like falling outover over a lack of trust or
breach of trust, happen withsome kind of commonality?

Speaker 4 (38:49):
Yeah, I think it once again.
I think that the definingfactor I've seen thus far is
that giving of the agency to thestudent in what you can, and so
if I just go ahead and do it,then yeah, there's that breach
of trust, especially if Ihaven't really communicated to
them that that's what I'm goingto do and they're not clear on
that.
But I think when I involve themin the decision and I think

(39:09):
that's consistent with how youngpeople understand the world
today they don't operate andfunction in terms of hierarchy.
They don't see youth pastors aspeople in positions of power so
much as they see them as peoplethey're in relationship to.
I think that's why our youthoften talk to us like they're
grown and it's like bro, why areyou talking to me like that?

(39:32):
It's because they think theycan talk to us as if they
understand the world the sameway we do.
That's too real Because theylive in a world, where it's
comments and likes and shares,and so for them, truth is social
.
Everybody has an opinion,everybody's opinion is valuable,
and so they come to youth groupwith that same perspective.
That's their worldview, and sowhen you involve them in the

(39:52):
decision, when you allow them toparticipate in it, you are
functioning in a way that theyunderstand reality, and so
you're more likely to have abetter outcome.
If you give them some agency,if you're like hey, yo, okay,
cool, I really appreciate yousharing this with me.
I'm so honored that you wouldallow me to step into this with
you.
And we got to tell your parentsbecause we got to keep you safe,

(40:15):
and so, look, I'm going to giveyou a second to process that.
I'm going to sit with you whileyou just take that in.
We got to talk to your parentand, like, how do we want to do
it?
Like let's do it together.
Like, how, how do you want todo it?
Do you want to call them?
Do you want me to tell them foryou and you'd be there with me?
Do you want to not be therewhen I tell them?
Do you want to tell them andI'll be there?

(40:35):
Do you want to tell them andthen I'll follow up with them
when they, when you get home, tomake sure you told them like,
how do you want to do it?
But so I want to give you someagency in that, right, but it's
going to happen, yeah, it's,it's got to happen, yeah.
And so in that, what I've neverfound, that a kid's like it's I

(40:57):
mean, it's a rare occurrencewhere kids like, no, you tell
them and I'll never talk to youagain.
And the reality is, if that'swhat they're saying, they were
going to say that anyways.
And your responsibility is stillwhat your responsibility is,
because at the end of the day,I'd rather that kid not talk to
me again and still be alive 100%.
Yeah, yeah, just keeping it astack.
If you never talk to me again,never come to my youth group
again, but you're alive and Goduses this to work in your life.

(41:20):
Praise the Lord, praise the.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Lord Straight up.
Yeah, that's hard to hard tosay, but also super true, yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
Logan.
What do you think, jordan, youmentioned something that piqued
my curiosity there with talkingabout right, their worldview and
there's no hierarchy right inthe world of likes, comments and
shares and just that beingstudents' worldview today and
I'm curious about what are somelike you said that in Brad and I
are both like oh yeah, but Ithink you put words to something

(41:49):
that maybe we didn't have wordsfor originally.
What are some other thingsright now, especially around
this conversation mental healththat are maybe those things that
um are different with our youthtoday's worldview, that we're
just not picking up on, thataffect these things of, uh,
mental health, especially with,with the students in high school

(42:12):
and in middle school and whatthat kind of looks like.

Speaker 4 (42:14):
Yeah for sure, I mean , man, there's so many things I
would say.
Primarily is that, like, theway that they view the world is
completely different from us, um, and as a consequence of that,
they um, yeah, they just see theworld way more differently than
we do.
I think the other thing thatI'm thinking about I'm reading
this book right now you guys mayhave read it the Anxious
Generation by Jonathan Haidt,right, and he talks about this

(42:36):
idea of not just that they'vebeen presented with these um
devices, but that also, um,they've been overprotected,
right, and so that's alsocontributed to their view of the
world.
So, like it's reallyinteresting because young people
seem to be more afraid of doingthings than we were before, but

(43:00):
then also like they live inthis like weird social media
space where they feel like theyhave more power and more control
.
It's like it's just like thisstrange nuance that I'm still
trying to figure out in my mindhow it works.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Is he the one that says, like they're, they're
overprotected in real life andunderprotected online,
underprotected throughtechnology.

Speaker 4 (43:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so I think that
that's massively contributing tothe way that we relate to them.
I think also, too, one of theinteresting things about young
people is like they seem to likelabels.
Like our generation didn't likelabels at all.
I don't feel like I feel likewe ran away from them.
I feel like they are more proneto them and I think I feel like

(43:46):
that's like an invitation awayfrom them.
I feel like they are more proneto them and I think I feel like
that's like an invitation toknow them, and so like I feel
like that they give themselveslabels in order to distinguish
themselves from one another andthat those labels are actually
an invitation to be known, asopposed to something that we

(44:07):
should get offended or upsetabout.
Like I've had tons ofconversations with young people
where they tell me they're apart of a particular community,
whether it be LGBTQ or whateverelse, and when I get into the
brass tacks of what thatactually means for them, it
means something very differentthan what I actually understood
it to be in the first place,like when I look at the
technical definition of whatthat thing might be, and so

(44:30):
oftentimes I find they're usingthese particular labels in a
very hyper relevant way tothemselves, that I actually have
to get into the nuances withnuances.
I have to get into the nuanceswith the individual to actually
discover what it is that theyactually mean, because they, at
the same time as putting theselabels on themselves, that

(44:53):
usually we would use labels toput people in a certain box.
I think they use the labels toactually try and distinguish
themselves and it's aninvitation for us to discover
what those labels mean and, indoing so, know them as an
individual.
Is that like a.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
that's really interesting Is that like a um
community thing too, like I wantto belong and this is a place
where I feel like I belong.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
I think absolutely.
There's like.
There's that part of it too,right Like cause.

Speaker 1 (45:25):
It's interesting that you say like the labels the
labels and like it sounds likeyou're kind of saying they don't
even mean what we think.
They mean a lot of the time,which is no bizarre.

Speaker 4 (45:38):
No, you're not saying that, or no, yeah, I am.
I am saying that, okay,absolutely.
Yeah, I am saying that, oh,okay, absolutely, I got you.
Yeah, yeah, they absolutelydon't mean what we think they
mean.
And I think what's interestingabout language is that over time
, like a word has a specificdefinition and then over time we
add to that definition, right,and the word begins to be used

(45:58):
for more things.
I mean, like that's the natureof slang, right?
Like I say dope, and well,that's not what you know what
I'm saying.
Like that means something else,but now we use it to say yo,
that's cool, you know what I'msaying.
And so it's the same thing withother words that kids use.
So they're using these wordsand they mean something
different or nuanced to eachparticular person, and so I

(46:19):
found, like having moreconversation, like, what do you
mean when you say that?
What does it actually mean foryou?
Yeah, oh, that's what you mean,you know, that's that's how you
you define yourself, and maybemaybe you're using that label
for attention, maybe you'reusing that label so that people
will actually notice you.
Um, which is another thing, Ithink kids don't distinguish

(46:39):
between infamy and fame, and so,um, popularity is popularity is
okay, whether it's popularity'spopularity for doing something
good or doing something wild,like they're both the same thing
, and if you think about it,that makes sense, because they
grew up in social media andeverything's about infamy and
fame are the same thing, and soif you do something that gets

(47:00):
you a bunch of likes, commentsand shares, that's what
validates it, as opposed towhether it's moral, whether it's
right, true, good, beautiful,any of those types of things,
those things don't really don'treally matter I think I think
something that really jumped outto me about that is I feel like

(47:21):
so often a student will do whatyou're talking about and apply
a label to themselves and you'resaying like, oh, I'd be curious
about that.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Ask questions because that's going to be something,
but like, a lot of times, ourgut check reaction is like no
bad, don't do, don't say thatyou know, and I feel like that's
just why.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
Yeah, that's why, right, don't say that, you know,
and I feel like that's just why.
Why, right?
So we feel like that thing thatthey're doing prick set our own
sense of righteousness, andhere's what I mean.
If I'm the youth pastor, I gota kid in there who's now saying
some wild stuff or professingdoing some wild stuff.
I feel like that makes me a badyouth pastor, so I've got to
nip that in the bud as quicklyas possible.

(48:06):
So it's actually about mefeeling some type of way about
me and now modifying said kid'sbehavior.
And parents do the same thing.
Right, it's their own sense ofrighteousness attached to what
their kid is doing or not doing.
And it becomes about behaviormodification, not for the sake
of that kid, but for the sake oftheir reputation, and so what

(48:26):
we have to do is be curious, askthe question well, why do you
believe that?
Okay, what makes you thinkthat's okay?
Oh, cool, cool, what makes youfeel like you should participate
in that behavior?
That's how you get to the heartof the matter and then actually
be able to speak to the issuethat you really truly need to
speak to, right?
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (48:42):
We were at a retreat a couple of days ago and totally
different context.
We were talking about marketingand met with Joy Joslin.
She's Brock, she works for theOklahoma City Thunder and is
their director of customerrelations, and she talked about

(49:07):
curiosity a lot from a marketingperspective.
It's like that's how peoplefeel connected to you is when
you take interest in them.
Logan made the comment that wejust need to have the Ted Lasso
dart scene playing on a loop.
They just weren't curious.
They just weren't curious.
They just didn't know.
That's what we need to do Becurious, not judgmental.
I love it.
I love it, love it.

(49:27):
Um, can we talk abouttechnology a little bit more?

Speaker 4 (49:30):
uh, we can can I add one more thing to the previous
question?

Speaker 1 (49:34):
yes, one more thing, and I'll be fast, you can say
literally whatever you want.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
Okay, good deal so the last thing I would say is I
feel like this generationself-diagnoses a ton when it
comes to mental health.
Right, so they'll go online I'manxious, I'm depressed, I have
trauma and, like even some kids,will go as far as to think it's
cool to say that they have apersonality disorder, which I've

(50:00):
spent time with people who havepersonality disorders.
With people who havepersonality disorders it's not
cool.
And so I think part of that isthis desire to be known,
different, distinguished, so onand so forth, in a infamy,
disfigured type of way.
And, and so I think one of theimportant things we have to

(50:24):
communicate to them is like whatanxiety actually is, like
anxieties, normal.
That's the truth, and here'swhat I mean by that.
If I'm standing on the edge ofthe Grand Canyon and I look out
and my whole body tingles whichit does every time I've stood on
the edge of the Grand CanyonBecause my body's telling me hey

(50:45):
, bro, you meeting Jesus, it'sover, you're gone Is that a good
thing?
Yes, it is.
It's absolutely a good thingthat I feel anxious on the edge
of the Grand Canyon, becausethat anxiety is communicating
some very helpful information tome Right now.
If I go home and I stand on astool in my pantry and I

(51:10):
experience the same anxiety thatI did on the edge of the Grand
Canyon.
Something's off, something'sout of order, right.
And so there's a differencebetween me feeling anxious
because I have a test, mefeeling anxious because there's
some stuff going on with myparents, or a hard conversation
I gotta have or whatever, Likethat's normal, that's a part of
life.
We experience anxiousness aboutthose things and we should take

(51:33):
care of ourselves so that thatanxiety doesn't stay for a
prolonged period of time and getout of order.
Where I'm experiencing mentalhealth challenges in ways that I
shouldn't be, about things thatI shouldn't be, now that said
thing has got out of order,right.
Like me being sad is totallyappropriate.

(51:54):
If somebody dies, if I lose ajob, if I have to move house, if
I move school, whatever, right,there are reasons to be sad.
There are appropriate reasonsto experience depressive
symptoms.
But, like, if I can't get outof my bed, if I have a constant
sense of hopelessness and likethat's about anything for any

(52:15):
reason and there's not anythingsignificant going on in my life
at that juncture or point intime, something's out of order
and so I think also we need tonormalize.
Hey, experiencing anxiety isnormal.
Yeah, being sad is normal,grieving is normal.
Traumatic experiences,unfortunately, like happen Right

(52:36):
.
And then there's also like thereal diagnosable, like anxiety
and diagnosable depression andpost-traumatic stress disorder,
and real personality disorders.
But there's a clear differencebetween those things in what we
might experience in everydaylife.
Just living as humans in abroken world.
That's hard and people aresuffering and we're suffering

(52:57):
too, and so I think, like makingthat distinction for young
people is important as well.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
I mean it goes right back to the labeling thing.
Right, it's like they, yeahthey, they want to be identified
with that community.
That's, that's, that's wild okayum, let's talk technology a
little bit, because it is a big,big deal.
Um, logan, I'm actually gonnaput you on the spot a tiny bit

(53:22):
because I do.
I feel like this this is justLogan is my friend.
Uh, we have a relationship thatwe've had for for seven years
now.
I feel like you are a person,and maybe I'm totally wrong, but
I feel like you have ahealthier relationship to your
phone than I do.
Um, some days, maybe maybe,maybe not but like that's just a

(53:44):
perception that I have aboutyou.
So I'm curious when, and youalso another piece of
information here work with agroup of 10th grade guys 10th
grade guys, so they have phonesand they're figuring out their
life and you talk about howthey're blowing up your phone
with who knows what all the timeand that that is a text message

(54:08):
.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
If any of them are listening.
They're probably not, but ifany of them are listening, it's
muted Because I want to check onthat conversation.
When I want to check on thatconversation.
Otherwise I'm going to have 100text messages blowing me up
every two hours.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
So I'm just curious to jump into a conversation with
jordan about technology and therole that that plays in mental
health.
What kind of your observationsare about high school students
and the way that they relate totheir phones, like this device
that they carry around with themall the time?

Speaker 2 (54:39):
yeah, I mean, uh, yeah, I have, I have.
I was actually I'm glad youbrought up technology, because
that was where I was going tohave my next question come from.
But, um, I I mean, uh, I know,one of the things that I just
noticed with my 10th grade guysand I'm sure you guys have seen
this with students that you workwith uh is the anxiety If I

(55:02):
don't have my phone.
Like my phone is like anextension of my body, an
extension of who I am Cyborg,yeah, and so I prefer Iron man,
but it's my Jarvis.
So, yeah, I just like that thatbeing such a deep part of like I

(55:26):
have to have this and I feeloff without it.
Is is just a crazy, crazy,crazy thing phone but I still
feel like I have the ability togo and put my phone and be okay,
because that wasn't such aningrained part of me.

(55:49):
But I do still have to teachmyself that like I can set my
phone here and I can be good.
But my students now are justlike this is just a part of who
they are, and so Jordan.
So what I was going to ask is,knowing that this just is a
reality of today's world withour youth, how can we best equip
them?

(56:10):
What are some things that wecan do for them and teach them
in technology, this meshing oftechnology and mental health?
What are tools we can give them?
What are things that we can doto kind of help when this is
just this is the reality?
We know our students areentrenched in technology.
Yeah, I mean, I think you.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
You gave the answer like we've got to train them to
be able to put this thing down.
We've got to.
We've got to help themestablish a right relationship
with technology and what itactually is.
And I think camp is anincredible opportunity for that
right.
It's an opportunity to put yourphone down, get away from your
life and everything that's goingon and really have some set
apart time with God.

(56:51):
And I think consistently whenI'm at camps and kids put their
phones away, there's someinitial anxiety and there might
be some underlying anxiety, butthey all come away saying I'm
glad that I did that.
And so I think it's up to us asyouth pastors, youth leaders,
to figure out how we kind ofincorporate those practices into
our youth ministries andcontinue to challenge kids to

(57:12):
like fast from technology, likefasting from food not so much
Fasting from technology yes,please, all the time, as much as
you can.
The more I do youth ministrystuff and the more time I spend
with youth, the more convinced Ibecome that technology is like
completely disfiguring our youngpeople.
It's just messing them up.

(57:33):
I think there's a number ofreasons for that One and I think
it's partly their relationshipto it, right, I think one, when
you have your phone, you beginto live in another world and you
exit this one, right.
And so, like I was at camp justa couple of weeks ago and I was
talking to the kids and I'mlike yo, have you ever, like,

(57:54):
been on your phone?
You get lost in scrolling forhours on end and then you
finally come back to the realworld in like a drunken stupor
and you feel groggy because,like, you got lost and you
forgot that you had the body andthese, all these kids are like
yes, and so I think what'shappening is kids are like
entering into this other world,the digital world, exit in the

(58:17):
world that they live in, gettingdisconnected from their bodies,
right, which I don't think isgood, because when we talk about
Romans, one, when we talk aboutGenesis, like one of the ways
that we understand who God is isthrough nature, and how can we
understand God through nature ifwe're never in it because we're
somewhere else?
And so kids are constantly ontheir phones, and I think

(58:38):
something unique abouttechnology, or social media in
particular, is it allows us tosee great good but also great
evil.
And so I think what happens foryoung people is they learn very
quickly that the world is evil,and so what that does is makes
them not want to live in thereal world.
And so now they want to spendmore time on their phone, right,

(59:00):
disconnected from reality,creating their own reality, or
at least they feel as if theyare from reality, create in
their own reality, or at leastthey feel as if they are.
And then I think thiscontributes to all the
challenges disconnecting fromyour body, disconnected from
your emotions, disconnected fromall of that stuff.
And I think that leaves roomfor all of the challenges that

(59:20):
we're seeing concerning identity, concerning mental health,
because kids are in this cycleof getting disconnected from
themselves, living in a spacethat continues to tell them that
the world that they go back toto eat and sleep in and use the
bathroom is evil.
So they keep going back thereand it's just continuing to fill
them with that narrative, and Ithink that's what's
contributing to the anxiety, tothe confusion, so on and so

(59:43):
forth.
And so we have to get them backinto the world and we have to
teach them that the world thatthey live in is good because God
created it, and we need them toexperience that and then, yes,
they can step back into thedigital world because it's not
going anywhere.
It's the driver of the economynow information and money, right
and so they've got to be ableto use that tool but recognize

(01:00:04):
that that's exactly what it is.
It's a tool and, like, thealgorithm is God You're not.
You might think you're God inthe technological world, but
you're not.
The algorithm is and, yes, tosome capacity, it's a reflection
of you.
But we also know that they'resuggesting posts, there's all
types of different things thatare happening that they're

(01:00:25):
experimenting with in the midstof that and that can pull a kid
in any particular direction forany reason and like there's just
the insidious nature of it,like I'll give you an example.
So we're actively trying togrow our social media right now
to like have more youth workersfollowing us, more youth
ministries following us, so theycan know about what we do.
And you know, if they want touse the content and resources we
create, dope do.

(01:00:47):
And you know, if they want touse the content and resources,
we create dope.
And so what I have seen is forfor a few months, we were
experiencing of bots yes,commenting and liking our
comments on other youth ministrypages amazing, wild.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
That is absolutely insane that I can't even wrap my
mind around it.
What's the goal?

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
What do you think the goal is?

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
I know what the goal is.
I'm not trying to put anexplicit tag on this podcast.
I know I get you.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
I was so incensed, bro, I am on fire in my heart
and mind trying to figure outwhat to do about this.
And then I go, like you do do,to Reddit when you need some
answers and I'm like, is anybodyelse experiencing this?
The answer is yes All the time,and the reality is this
Instagram is going to do nothingabout it.
Yeah, they're not, or any otherplatform for that matter, not

(01:01:40):
just them in particular, butbecause, once again, like, it's
within the parameters of fairusage with their stuff, right
and so or at least they say itis.
And so what?
What does?
What does that do for a youngperson that, just you know, is
innocently trying to look upbible verses?
And then they click on somesuggestive picture and next
thing you know they're in aworld that they had no intent of

(01:02:01):
going into and they're lost init.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
Yeah, and it's that easy, man it's that easy, man,
it is that easy.
Oh, my goodness.
Okay, um, do you have four morehours?
Hey man, let's go.
I'm just kidding, I don't havefour more hours, um, but I am
curious about.
So it it?
It seems like, really, thespine of this conversation is

(01:02:25):
social media.
Um, and I think you know,obviously, that's appropriate.
I think social media isterrible.
I think it's ruining people, um, and, and the way that they
think about the world andthemselves, uh, it, it would the
same apply.
So I'm thinking I have a groupof eighth grade guys and they

(01:02:47):
spend not a lot of time on theirphones texting people, but they
spend a lot of time in front oftheir TVs playing Fortnite or
Minecraft.
Like, is that the same?
Are they doing the same thing?

Speaker 4 (01:03:00):
Yes, okay, so I'll give you an example One of my
really good friends, and I thinkthis is really interesting
because I think there you anexample One of my really good
friends.
Well, I think this is reallyinteresting because I think
there's an opportunity for us toget to know them in that.
So one of my really goodfriends, his son, built a
Minecraft world, and what I didis I sat down with him and

(01:03:21):
walked through his Minecraftworld and what his Minecraft
world essentially showed me waslike what he was longing for.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
It's the new art therapy.

Speaker 4 (01:03:30):
Let's go, yeah, yeah, like so, hey, I don't like the
world I live in, so let me gocreate another one, yeah right.
And so I think like there's Ithink, yes, but it's a little
bit different like the, thevideo game in space, yeah, but I
think it like it has the samepotential, if that makes sense.
And so there's this opportunityfor me to enter into that with

(01:03:51):
them and kind of learn aboutthem if I get an opportunity to
see their Minecraft world, if Iget an opportunity to see their
Fortnite characters and why theycreate them, the way they do,
and all those different types ofthings.
It allows for conversation, butat its core, it essentially is,
in my opinion, to some degreelike escapism, just like we were
doing with our phones.
And, once again, I think thething that makes it difficult is

(01:04:14):
, like the reality is, if you'rereally good at video games, you
can make a ton of money.
So there's this balance betweenkids engaging with that stuff
and like also staying healthy,yeah, and so I think like, once
again, it always brings us backto like what's going on in the
heart.
What's the motivation?
Like?
Is this like, hey, like I feellike god called me to play video

(01:04:36):
games and I'm gonna like playvideo games and share the gospel
, or I'm gonna play video gamesto the best of my ability and
give a bunch of money away toKingdom Endeavors or whatever I
don't know Dope.
And then is it like no, I usevideo games to escape because my
mom and dad argue all the timeand my dad's an alcoholic and my
mom takes a bunch of Xanax andwhatever.

(01:04:57):
You know what I mean.
And so I think it's in theinvestigation, like we talked
about earlier in the questions,being curious about why they do
what they do and what they getout of it.
We figure out what's going onwith them and then we actually
get the opportunity to minister,cause here's the reality too.
Like there were kids that are onsocial media all the time in
our high schools, but likethey're making money.

(01:05:19):
Like I remember I was involvedin a ministry before and there
was this girl she had 3 millionfollowers on Instagram.
She was in high school, wow.
And so she's making bread.
All these brands are asking herto post and paying her five,
six figures to post, and so it'slike her relationship to social
media is a little bit differentNow.
The dangers are still the sameand I think she still needs to
be discipled and like challengedand making sure that you know

(01:05:49):
she's um walking with the Lord,but at the same time, it's like
you're set for life If youmanage that properly, if you
manage that accordingly, rightand so like.
I think those, those are likeunique challenges that the
social space in gaming presentsuh for us, and so we have to
like it can't be, it's not this,all or nothing, right, it's got
to be this both end.
Um, and that's what makes it sodifficult my brain is mush I

(01:06:15):
just, it's so much.

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
Yeah, I think it's so much.
One of the most uh,enlightening things that, like
you said, jordan, that has stuckwith me is the kids and
students are learning that theworld is evil so much sooner and
they're seeing it in thissocial space and so then they're

(01:06:38):
going and like you've seen itin ways that we never saw it
before we didn't know like Iwasn't.
I mean I went on social mediaat the ages that they can be on.

Speaker 4 (01:06:46):
That wasn't a thing when I was in high school and it
sticks with me to this day.
One of the most horrifyingthings I ever saw was, if you
remember, those terrorists werestarting to behead people.
You remember those videos andso I saw one of those and that
was my introduction to and so Isaw one of those and that was

(01:07:10):
like my introduction to like yo,there are people out here that
are doing some wild stuff, bro,like that is so evil.
I can't imagine what it takesfor you to do that to somebody.
That like scarred me in a veryreal sentence, like I still
remember it to this day.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
How old how old are you?

Speaker 4 (01:07:24):
jordan.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
I'm 35, 35 yeah I was gonna say the same thing.
It's like 9 11 was yeah, bro,like I grew up.

Speaker 4 (01:07:31):
So much that day.
That was our real introduction,introduction to like yo.
There's real people out herethat like really want to do some
sinister stuff.
But these kids, if they'veaccidentally bumped into the
wrong thing for the wrong reasonyou exploring technology which
they probably have they'veaccidentally bumped into the
wrong thing for the wrong reasonyou exploring technology, which
they probably have they've beenintroduced to some really evil
stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Man Well, and the thing is it exists out there
that the like, the depths ofwhich, like you, can just keep
seeing.
Yeah, the, you're right, you'relike.
I saw one video and it's like.
There, I guarantee you, thereare pages of things that it's
just they Like there, Iguarantee you, there are pages

(01:08:11):
of things that it's just.
They could keep going and keepscrolling, which is terrifying
and so scary, but I love thelike, right, what we all need
and I think we get this likewhat we all need is just more of
the gospel, just continue tofocus on the gospel and Jesus,
but the framing of it is withstudents.
Today, like you know, the worldis evil, but Jesus can come and
he can redeem it and he canrestore your world and the

(01:08:35):
world's worth being in when heis with you and when his Holy
Spirit dwells inside of you.

Speaker 4 (01:08:40):
And I would say like to that.
But before that, right, and Ithink this is partly the issue
with how we present the gospelwe start with sin.
That's not where the storystarts.
The story starts with creationand God creating everything good
.
Everything that God has createdis still, fundamentally, at its
core, good.
The problem is we take thethings that God has created and

(01:09:02):
we use them in ways that areevil.
It's not that those things areevil in of themselves, right,
like sex isn't evil, but we useit for evil things.
Alcohol isn't evil and we useit for evil things, right.
So the food isn't evil.
Money isn't evil, but we use itfor evil things.
And so there's a guy who wrotethis book I think it's Al

(01:09:23):
Walters, and Al Walters CreationRegained, and he talks about
this idea of structure anddirection.
So, structure God createseverything good.
Direction we decide how we'regoing to use it.
So when we look at when theBible talks about evil, like
when God's talking about evilspecifically I think it's in the
old Testament Evil is like, ifyou look at it in the original
language, it's to spoil.
It's to like take somethingthat God created and use it in

(01:09:45):
the wrong way.
That's sin, and so we do thatall the time.
And so it's not that thosethings aren't good, it's that we
are using them for selfish,corrupt, harmful means to
ourselves and to other people.
And so I think once again, theworld inherently in of itself is
good.
Yes, it has been affected andfractured by sin, absolutely,

(01:10:08):
but at its core it's good.
And what is God going to do?
He's going to reconcile allthings to himself in Christ.
He's going to restoreeverything, right, and so that
means he's not just going toblow it up and set it on fire
and do away with it, but he'sgoing to eradicate sin from it,
right.
And so new heavens, new earth,and so I think that should

(01:10:30):
affect the way we communicatewhat this thing actually is, if
that makes sense.
And so, like there's thisgoodness that you can experience
the R and wonder of sitting ona mountain or being in a forest
or seeing the beauty of creationyou know what I'm saying as you
go through a certain part ofthe country or whatever, or
sitting by the water, whateverit is that you're doing, like

(01:10:51):
you can experience God rightthere, cause God created it, and
that awe and wonder kind oftaps you into this reality that
there's something larger,grander, bigger than you, that,
like, created this thing and hasallowed you to be a part of it,
and so I think that's that'sthat's the good that I'm talking

(01:11:13):
about.
Uh, kids needing to connectback to right.
It's almost like we're justreturning to ancient spiritual
practices.
Honestly, um, slowing down andreally engaging with nature,
engaging with our bodies,engaging with one another,
engaging with God, like yeah,that's good stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
Uh, jordan, I'm curious.
Uh, I think there are going tobe a lot of people listening
that are like where can I learnmore?
And uh, what, what are some?
What are some things I canstart reading, what are some
things I can start watching, umto be more informed on the
conversation of mental health,on technology with students.

(01:11:46):
Um, you being very prominent inthis space, um, just having a
lot of knowledge, what are someresources you can point people
to?

Speaker 4 (01:11:55):
man, that's a good question.
Um, well, like I said, I thinkthat anxious generation book's
been really good so far.
I would definitely pick that up.
Um, I'm trying to think off thetop of my head.
What would I recommend topeople?
Now you got me looking at mybook.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Yeah, I was just saying looking at the books in
the back um, I mean, obviouslywe've got our stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:12:17):
We've got our podcast , the rltk podcast.
We've got our website,reframeyouthcom if you want to
check out the things that we'recreating and putting out.
So these are things that wecommonly uh talk about, wrestle
through, argue about and try andnavigate together.
Um, I'm trying to think, whatelse would I recommend?

Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
well, while you think about that, we, uh, we are kind
of needing to wind down ourtime together a little bit here.
But, um, curious what advice Imean we've talked a lot about,
like what we're up against here,which is, if I could you know I
might be overstepping bysummarizing it this way, but, uh

(01:12:59):
, it sounds like one of theprimary things affecting kids in
their mental health is escapismthrough technology, would it?
Would you agree with that?
Yeah, I think that's a good wayto put it right now.
And then.
So, like, what would you coachyouth pastors to actually do
about that?
You know, practically, like howdo we live in this world Like

(01:13:27):
themselves, or in their youthministries, or both, in their
youth ministries in particular,I mean, yeah, it would be
helpful for them personally, butlet's talk about on the youth
ministry side.

Speaker 4 (01:13:36):
Yeah, so I think our youth ministries oftentimes move
too fast.
So we have replicated what wehave seen in the world around us
, which is like let's move fast,let's be fun, let's be flashy,
let's have the performance andpromotion and different things
of that nature and I'm notsaying those things are always

(01:13:56):
bad, like, obviously we can havefun and different things of
that nature but I think that wewant to create a space that's
different from the world thatkids live in and I think that
the pace that we've moved at inour youth ministries becomes
really important.
So if we can move a little bitslower, we can move a little bit
slower in, like what we do andhow we transition from thing to

(01:14:17):
thing.
Is there space for silence?
Is there space for kids to slowdown from their day?
Because a lot of times kids arecoming in and they're not even
paying attention to what'shappening in our youth
ministries and part of thereason for that is they're
worried about what's going onafter or they're still thinking
about what happened before andthey haven't had space to really
take a moment to breathe,process that and put that down

(01:14:37):
and step into what's happeningin the context of the youth
ministry.
And so I think we can create aslowness and a pace that allows
them to engage with God in waysthat perhaps they're not
engaging with God outside ofthat room because it's likely
that they're not and then startto present certain challenges.
What does it look like for youto put your phone away for an
hour every day, or an hour oncea week?

(01:14:59):
What does it look like for youto get out in nature and go for
a walk?
What does it look like for youto sit in your backyard or to go
to the local park and spendsome time with God like
presenting some differentopportunities and then what does
it look like for us to practicethose things together?
Maybe that's what youth grouplooks like one week.
I think they spend two hours aweek with us, right?

(01:15:23):
Maybe four hours if you do aWednesday and a Sunday or
whatever, and so we've got to bepreparing them for what the
rest of their week looks like,and I think sometimes we get too
focused on what we want youthgroup to be as opposed to what
it needs to be, in order toprepare them for the world that
they live in.

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
And I think yeah, that's interesting because I
think a lot of youth pastorsmight lean more towards like
well, I'm going to make thissomething that is comfortable
for students, because thenthey'll be able to relate and
connect.
You're saying it might actuallybe more valuable to do
something that actually makesthem really uncomfortable.

(01:16:05):
Correct and you might have tofight them on a little bit in
order to get them from here downto here.

Speaker 4 (01:16:14):
And I think that's what they want.
Yeah, and here's the reality.
Right, I can do all that coolstuff, but they can find
something cooler on their phone.
They can find somebody who'sbetter speaking than me, they
can find better production,better video, all those
different types of things.
All those things exist.
What they can't replace is therelationship, the authenticity
of us sitting face to face andhaving a conversation and me

(01:16:34):
sharing my life with them andthem sharing their life with me.
They can't get that anywhereelse, and so we have to make
sure that that's what we'regiving them in the context of
our ministries and, once again,they're not hierarchical, so
they want to sit in spaces whereit's more shared.
We're discerning truth together, we're asking questions and
answering them together.
Everybody's contributing to theconversation, and I think

(01:16:55):
there's ways to do that andstill communicate scripture as
authoritative and still makesure that you're driving home
the points that you want todrive home concerning whatever
it is that you're talking about.
I just think we can just goabout it a little bit
differently, and I think it canbe more effective.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
I love it.
That's all I got Logan feelgood.
This is great stuff.
Thanks, jordan.
Oh my gosh, thank you so much,man.
I mean, really thisconversation challenged me
personally in a lot of ways andreally this conversation
challenged me personally in alot of ways.
It challenged me as somebodywho deals with young people in a
lot of ways and just reallyappreciate the context and

(01:17:35):
perspective around mental healthyou've given us here.
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:17:39):
Glad to do it, man.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
Thanks for having me logan man okay, honestly brad,
what's your screen time, becausethat's what I was a little bit

(01:18:00):
like truly, I know, but alsolike I mean, you said this off
mic and I believe it and I wantto say it on mic, like I want to
bring him back for eight morehours.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, jordan has a ton of good stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:18:13):
You could tell a lot of ways, that was like the tip
of the iceberg.
Yeah For sure.
Yeah, there's just so muchthere.
Oh, my goodness, it was a greatconversation, a really
convicting conversation forpeople that work with students,
I think, a critical conversationthat maybe we don't give enough
thought to.

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
Yeah, I hope you learned something, were
encouraged today, but also maybeanxious in a healthy way, as he
talked about you know of.
Okay, there's, there's more tolearn and do and and things to
think about in your ministry.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
That first question, when he was like I don't know,
it's like what I need you toknow, all right, well, we got a
lot to think about.
I'm going to have you.
Uh, logan closes out real quickby reading our blessing.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
May God show you grace and bless you.
May he make his face shine onyou.
May you experience the love ofChrist, through whom God gives
you fullness of life.
May you be strengthened by hispower.
May Christ himself make hishome in your heart, that you
would be full of his love andgrace and that those you serve
would see Jesus in you.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
Today's episode was produced by Michael Hester,
lauren Bryan and myself.
I'm super grateful for bothJordan and Logan for being with
us today.
If you liked what you heard,please subscribe to this show on
YouTube or wherever you listento podcasts.
We're going to be back in acouple weeks.
We will either choose your ownadventure except I'm going to
choose it for you.
We will either be talking aboutleading worship for students,

(01:19:50):
which is a conversation thatwe'll definitely have before the
end of the series, or we'regoing to jump into a little
series where we're just going tokind of spotlight some churches
that are doing some cooldifferent things.
So one of those things willdefinitely happen in two weeks.
In the meantime, please reachout to us on the ci community

(01:20:10):
facebook group or by email atpodcastciycom.
We will see you next time,thank you.

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