August 18, 2024 • 54 mins
Text Beyond the Threshold w/ your thoughts or questions!
In this episode of Beyond the Threshold, host Sidney Evans celebrates the journey of Ashley J. Hobbs, a three-time NAACP Image Award-winning podcast producer, writer, narrator, and voiceover artist.
In this episode they discuss:
- Ashley’s childhood aspirations and attending women's college.
- Transitioning from being fired to juggling multiple opportunities in different cities.
- Early experiences at Essence and the resilience that fueled her passion for writing and audio production.
- A leap of faith that lead to working on Holding Court w/ Ebony K Williams.
- Her authentic approach to building meaningful relationships.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So the blessing of working at Essence was because
of the team that I worked with.
We were all learning at likelightning speed, but there
wasn't a whole lot of time tolike sit in it, because as
quickly as I was thinking like,oh my God, there's so much I
need to learn, there wassomething else I had to do in
order to learn the thing.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Tune in as we give flowers to black men and women
making waves in the audioindustry.
I'm your host, sydney Evans,and this is Beyond the Threshold
.
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen,to Beyond the Threshold.
(00:45):
I'm your host, sidney Evans, anaward-winning audio editor and
producer.
For those who don't know, thisshow is dedicated to
interviewing Black men and womenworking in the audio industry,
while highlighting the lessonsand experiences it takes to
achieve success in the field.
I will introduce our guestshortly, but first and foremost,
(01:07):
I just want to say I can'tbelieve I'm really here.
This is the first officialepisode.
Hopefully you have listened toepisode zero.
In the teaser, which I havealready released, we can get
more familiar with the conceptand the premise from the show
from my perspective, as well asa little bit about my background
.
But for the first time todayyou'll be hearing the voice of
(01:29):
someone else.
We're going to have a greatinterview in store.
We're going to get into thenitty gritty, but just thank
everybody for listening and Ihope you continue to support and
very grateful to have you all.
So to introduce our guest, justto give a brief bio, she is a
three-time NAACP ImageAward-winning podcast producer,
(01:54):
writer, narrator and voiceoverartist.
She's produced with DCPEntertainment, essence, Warner
Music Group, interval Presents,spotify and more.
She currently leads productionon shows like Holdin' Court with
Ebony K Williams, which was thewinner of the 2024 NAACP Image
Award for Outstanding News andInformation Podcast, as well as
(02:17):
the Tour Ray Show.
Her short fiction has beenpublished with Midnight and
Indingo, and she most recentlynarrated Delaina RA Dameron's
literary debut, redwood Court.
Not only did she start out as acolleague, but she has turned
into a friend of mine, and I wasthrilled when she agreed to
come onto the show.
(02:37):
So, without further ado, I'dlike to introduce to you all
Ashley J Hobbs.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Hey, thank you.
Thank you for inviting me,Sydney.
This is dope what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I appreciate it.
We've been connected for sometime and it looked like there
were going to be moments wherewe potentially had the
opportunity to work together.
It hasn't happened quite yet,so it seems like this was just
the perfect moment for us toreally get into the nitty gritty
of things and collaborate anddo something together, so we're
(03:11):
just going to jump right into it.
As I mentioned, I've known herfor quite a few years.
I'm more familiar with thestuff she has done more recently
, but I do not know too muchabout her background.
Do not know too much about herbackground.
So, ashley, if you could justshare that you know where you
grew up, where you from.
Like what was young Ashley?
(03:31):
Like where were your passions,you know, and interests at a
young age?
I'm curious to know.
I'm sure everyone else is aswell.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, man.
So yeah, I grew up in centralJersey, in a town called
Piscataway, which is, ifanybody's familiar with New
Jersey, you know, like Rutgersuniversity has their biggest
campuses um, right in Piscatawayslash new Brunswick area.
So I grew up there.
There were different phases inmy life, right?
So there was a phase where Iwanted to be an R and B singer,
cause you know I was listeningto the people at the time, right
, so it was Whitney Houston,mary J Blige, mariah Carey, all
(04:09):
of them.
And then I wanted to be afirefighter for a smooth minute.
I wanted to be a ballerina.
It was like all these differentthings Like I don't know, it's
just like random things.
Once you saw it then you'relike oh, I think I'm interested
in that.
I saw the 96 Olympics and I sawhow the US team truly brought
home all the gold medals and Iwas like I want to be a gymnast.
(04:31):
That lasted for a couple ofsummers, but it was a thing that
I did as a kid.
But I think the most enduringthing was always being a writer.
I didn't know what it meant tobe a producer or anything like
that at the time.
I just knew that I could likewrite stories or put stories
together some sort of way, andthen that started to evolve
(04:52):
through the years.
I always sort of like wrotelittle short stories and stuff A
lot of them.
I didn't finish.
I didn't start actuallyfinishing my writing until I got
older in my thirties, but I wasalways writing.
And then it evolved intoactually like figuring out what
that looks like in terms of likecontent production and then
audio production.
A few years ago, when I startedworking with Essence- Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So I think the curiosity you had just for you
know, exploring those differentthings is like a great mindset
to have.
I know a lot of uh, when peoplekids are younger, they're into
so many things and want to tryso many things and unfortunately
, a lot of parents kind of likesuppress that and try to like
(05:36):
reel it in and I think, as a kidlike you kind of got to just
let them go and just try andexplore things.
So, um, it's good that you youknow it doesn't seem like you
had anyone who tried to likeeliminate, eliminate that from
you, because I feel like a lot,of a lot, you know, when that
happens you don't end uphonestly doing the thing that
you love to do.
(05:57):
You kind of just go with whatpeople say are more practical
and you kind of kill like thosecreative juices and that
creative energy.
So I'm glad that was not thecase with you.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
It actually kind of was the case.
So a part of my growing up wasI was raised in like the
Pentecostal church, apostolicchurch, whatever, which
dependent I mean no, notdependent like it is a very
strict denomination ofChristianity, and so there was a
lot of things like, even as achild, like it is a very strict
(06:28):
denomination of Christianity.
And so there was a lot ofthings like, even as a child,
like I was very interested inmovies and TV and all of that,
wanted to be an actor, all thatkind of stuff, and it was always
like, oh, like that's bad,that's a sin, right and so.
Or like Hollywood or Broadway,all of that is like the devil's
playground, like those sorts ofmessages, right, and so reading
(06:51):
was fine and I could write all Iwanted.
But to actually start to goafter opportunities when I got
older, it was difficult at firstuntil my family left the church
that we were in, and thatwasn't until I was 30.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
And I'm now 38.
So over the span of eight years, I've been able to become like
this creative person, who's likeproducing podcasts and being a
voice artist and like you knowwhat I mean Like I performed a
monologue on stage last yearLike all these things happen in
a span of eight years.
So it's like all this arresteddevelopment and then, in years
(07:24):
of this, this like creativegrowth.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
OK, so we're definitely going to focus more
on the eight year period alittle later in the episode, but
I'm just curious as to like sowith the first, within the first
30 years, like what was thefirst like thing you pursued or
you decided to like do as a, tolike provide for yourself, like
once you became an adult pursued, or you decided to like do as
(07:47):
the, to like provide foryourself, like once you became
an adult.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So I went to a women's college down kind of
close to the Jersey shore, and Iremember I was part of a group
called Wild, which was the womenin leadership development
program, like so, all ofundergrad.
I was part of that program andI was really active.
And so then the provost of thecollege said to me you should
stay, get your master's degreeand be a grad assistant that
runs the Women in LeadershipDevelopment Program.
And because I didn'tnecessarily want to go home
(08:15):
right away, because I wasn'tsure what I would do, I stayed,
got a free master's in businessadministration.
I wasn't even interested in anMBA, but I was like I need to
figure some other things out.
So that grad assistantship, Ithink, was like my first sort of
like okay, I guess I could dothis.
This is something that myfamily will understand, it's not
(08:35):
too far left.
And yeah, I don't have.
You know what I mean.
I have to do all thisexplanation.
And so when I was finished withthe program, with running the
program and getting my MBA, well, first of all, it was also a
smart move for me because when Igraduated, I graduated in 2008.
The bubble burst and all thethings, and it was no jobs, blah
, blah, blah.
So I was like I might as welljust stay and get another degree
(08:57):
, because there's nothing outthere.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Right, right right.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So when I finished the MBA program it still took a
little while for me to find ajob.
And it was so funny becausepeople were like, oh, you have
an MBA, you're going to find ajob making $60,000 right out of
school, no problem, that was notthe case.
After that it took me a coupleof years to find a job.
I was an adjunct professor fora while.
I taught developmental Englishat a local community college.
(09:23):
Oh man, then I was an executiveassistant to a dean at that
same community college.
So these are all things in likeacademia that you know my
family is not going to question.
I'm making decent money at home.
I'm not going to New York andLA and all the place.
You know what I mean.
But I got fired from theexecutive assistant job because
I was.
I was not doing my job.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You was not built for that.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I wasn't.
I said like, of the differenttimes I got fired, I deserved
that one because I was just onFacebook.
I'm not even going to hold youLike I was on Facebook.
I just was not into being anexecutive assistant and I just,
you know how, you just know youdon't fit someplace and you're
trying to make yourself fit, butit just doesn't work.
From there I don't even know.
(10:07):
I was like Googling, trying tofind places that like were doing
work with black women in anykind of way, shape or form, and
I ended up working at anonprofit in Crown Heights,
brooklyn.
I did that for like a year anda half left that.
Then I worked at Bloomingdale's.
I was all over the place.
I was all over the place.
Then, after Bloomingdale's, Imoved to DC and I worked at an
(10:27):
education tech company for alittle less than a year.
Now that one I got fired fromand there was no, truly no, just
cause Cause, like all thestudents were, I had rave
reviews from all my students andit was just like no explanation
.
And then that led me to.
You know, I was depressed forlike two weeks.
I didn't like really leave myapartment because I'm like I
(10:48):
moved down here and now.
I don't have income except, youknow, unemployment, but
thankfully, like, my parentshelped me out, you know, like my
car note helping me to makerent and all that and I just
felt like that was this was thetime.
This was the moment I feel likewas very defining for me.
I don't think I would be, Idon't think that I would have
(11:08):
been able to do all the thingsthat I've done to date, over
these last eight years that wetalked about earlier if I didn't
make the choice that I did in2018 when I got fired from that
job, because I was like I'mgoing to use what little money I
have and some credit cards andI'm going to try the things.
It just kept coming to me.
Production kept coming to meand I was like I got to figure
this out.
So I was like, let me see if Ilike live event production.
(11:30):
So I volunteered at theAmerican Black Film Festival
down in Miami, barely had themoney to go right, I didn't have
money for the first night, so Islept in the airport the first
night and then the next coupleof nights I slept in a hotel
room with like three other girls, so we didn't even know each
other and I worked the event.
It was cool, you know.
(11:50):
I met a lot of really greatpeople, learned a whole lot
about the film industry.
But I realized, like live eventproduction is not for me, right
, but I'm glad that I had thatexperience but the seed was
already planted.
I was like there's something inthis kind of space.
It's just not this thing, right.
And I remember an old sermonfrom like TD Jakes, and he said
(12:13):
he was talking to his sonbecause he was his son, was
about to go to school, I thinkfor music or whatever.
I think he asked his son likewhy are you not?
You don't seem like you'reexcited, or whatever.
And his son was like, in somany words his son was saying
like I'm not sure if this iswhat I'm supposed to be doing
and I don't want you and mom towaste your money.
(12:34):
Td Jakes said to his son, ifthis isn't the thing, it'll be
the thing that leads to thething, right.
And so I feel like that's whatwas happening with me was like
live event production wasn't thething, but it was one of the
things that led to the thing.
And so came back to DC, signedup for a television production
class at the local like TVstation and then I forgot that I
had applied for an advertisingproduction fellowship in New
(12:56):
York City.
I got that at the same time.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So Tuesday nights, so you're doing both.
Everybody has a story and theylead, you know, bridges that
they had to cross and moments,but I feel like we still kind of
early on in the story.
You done went through somestuff.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
No, for real.
Because I was like I want to doboth and I was like I have the
time because I got fired.
I don't have a want to do bothand I was like I have the time
because I got fired.
I don't have a full-time jobnow.
So Tuesday nights I was in DCat my TV production class.
Then either Tuesday night afterthe class or Wednesday morning
I would drive home to Jersey,take a quick nap, then take the
(13:38):
train into the city to grayadvertising and then go do that
whole thing to gray advertisingand then go, you know like do
that whole thing and then atsome point in the week I would
drive back to DC.
And I did that.
I think it was eight weeks Ihad to do that.
And I look back on it now andI'm like, bro, how did you have
the energy?
Like that's crazy, that'sreally crazy.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I was just that was going to be.
That was like what was in myhead.
It was like when you're goingthrough it you're like yo, I'm
crazy.
But then you look back you'relike, yeah, I was still crazy,
but it was a level ofappreciation, Like I kind of did
what I had to do.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
To make it honestly.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, and I mean like again, I learned a whole lot
from those two experiences.
I definitely knew thatadvertising production wasn't
for me, but I gleaned so manythings that actually ended up
helping me in my writing, helpedme in content production, even
for when I started working atEssence, Because when I started
(14:36):
working at Essence my title wasdigital production, but it was
understood that it was thepodcast network.
It ended up that I startedwriting articles for Essencecom.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So it's like things that I learned in the
advertising fellowship totallyapplied to how I wrote those
articles and, like SEO and likeall these different things that
I never would weren'tnecessarily right on par with
what you wanted to be doing,ultimately did end up being very
helpful down the line for you.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yep, yep, exactly that.
So, yeah, I mean I did that.
I ended up having to move home.
Almost I think it was like ayear to the date that I had
moved to DC.
About two and a half, threeweeks later I ended up having
emergency surgery.
Nobody knew I was going to haveto have surgery, so I was down
for like a month and a half, Ithink, and it was actually
(15:33):
really bad.
I was on a walker, then I had acane, it was just like a whole
thing and I was like, well dang,this is messing me up, because
now my unemployment had run out,I'm back at home, I have bills
that I have to pay and I don'thave any income.
And I forgot that earlier inthat summer I had applied for
(15:56):
basically I forgot what my titlewas, but there was a playhouse
in New Brunswick where peoplecame and did stage plays and I
applied to be a ticket takerthere and literally a few weeks
after my surgery I was still ona cane but I was able to walk
upright and all that kind ofstuff.
(16:16):
It wasn't too bad.
They reached out to me andwanted an interview.
So I remember I had my frienddrive me over there and I was
like I got to leave my cane inyour car because I don't need
them saying I can't have thisjob.
And it was something like Idon't even know if it was $12 an
hour, but I was like I justneed something that's going to
keep me above water financiallyso even if I have to pay the
(16:38):
bare minimums on everything, atleast I'm not getting behind.
And then the other part aboutit too not to make this too long
, but the other part about ittoo was this was a job where I
could sit down.
I didn't have to be standingand moving around and all these
things, because I had hadsurgery on my stomach and I was
thinking about it.
I was like I need a job wheremy body can heal and I don't
(16:58):
have to be doing a whole bunchof strenuous work so that
eventually I can start applyingto like production jobs in the
city this, that and the third.
So that's what ended uphappening.
I ended up working that job.
I learned again.
I learned so much from theplaywrights, so much from
watching the plays, so much fromwatching the crew come in and
(17:18):
set up the sets and all of thatkind of.
I learned so freaking much.
And then, five months to sixmonths later, a friend of mine
was like hey, I saw that you hadposted on Instagram you were
looking for a production work.
This and a third Do you want tobe my associate producer for
Essence in a couple of weeks?
Because I may not be able tomake it whatever.
(17:40):
So, long story short, I went toBrooklyn that was the day they
had Alicia Keys cover shoot.
This was 2019.
The connections I made that dayI want to say that it was
either April or May of 2019.
The connections I made that daygot me a full-time job at
Essence by July 1st of the sameyear.
(18:00):
And then that was like trulythe start of my production
journey.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
That's, that's that's like I said that's a lot, but
you know it's, it's a I thinkit's a lesson to, like I said,
just, you kind of do what yougot to do to get to where you
want to go, and also into like,if you, if you think you want to
do, pursue something, you tryit and it it.
(18:27):
Like I said, it's not exactlyon par, I feel like a lot of
people would just okay, you'dlike you do the live event
production.
It's not for you, it's like, ohwell, it's not immediate, let
me go do something.
But you didn't.
You knew it was still withinthat realm, but you maybe just
had to pivot a little bit.
And I went through similarexperience as well.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Um, but like, did you ever have like a moment where
you, where you did think like,well, maybe, maybe this isn't
for me, of course, like at all,because, like I'm trying to
remember if I felt that way?
I think the only times I mighthave felt that way is if I felt
like the money wasn't comingquick enough.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, I mean, I mean I definitely went through that
and I was going to say just alittle bit later for the show,
but like, all right.
So before we get to the, to theessence stuff, and you're
building upon that, I feel likethis is since you just brought
it up and so like, do you feellike the work we do in audio and
(19:28):
just the medium in general islike extremely undervalued?
But when, if you go, go to anevent and there's no music, like
there's no, the energy is gone.
If you watch a movie andthere's no soundtrack, there's
no special effects, like it'sflat, like to you.
Like there is a story but youdon't, you're not connected to
(19:51):
it.
So just you know, in yourexperience working in the
industry, like you know whatpeople are willing to pay for,
you know, uh, engineers, or youknow, let's say, making a short
film is like you want all thetop camera equipment, whatever,
but you throw peanuts at, youknow the budget for the sound
(20:12):
and then when you're, whenyou're, you're, you're, your
film is, it doesn't connect.
You're like what happened?
Like you didn't check all theboxes, you didn't value what you
were supposed to value.
So do you feel like the audiomedium and the people that work
in the industry are undervaluedin a general sense.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I would say I would say yes, in, in, in, like a
majority of the spaces.
Yes, it's undervalued, it canall, it can almost be
intimidating Cause it's likewell, man, if I want to stay in
this, then maybe I should lowermy rates a little bit, just so I
you know what I mean, like, andthen it's like but, man, I have
all these years of experienceand this stuff takes time it
(20:49):
does it takes time, like me as aproducer, and it's so funny
because people are like, well,what does a producer do?
and I was like, well, it dependson the producer.
You ask, right?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
so I'm glad you said that too, because that's another
question I was gonna get you.
I work in the industry and I'vehad to find myself trying to
really hone in and narrow likewhat in the most simplest form.
If I was to describe it tosomeone like what do they do so
from your, from your experienceand your perspective?
Like, in the most simple waypossible, a producer does.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I can't remember who we heard say this, but it was
while I was at Essence, cause Iremember me and my executive
producer at the time, tiffanyAshite.
She's now like, I think likeglobal director over at ACAST
now, but we were both in theroom and someone said something
like I'm an organizer of chaos,and Tiffany was like I'm going
(21:43):
to use that because that'sexactly what we do as producers,
like we organize the chaos.
And Tiffany was like I'm goingto use that because that's
exactly what we do as producers,like we organize the chaos.
And I, yeah, I think like, in avery like simple way, that's
what a producer does.
But I think, like, depending onwhat your skillset is, there
are some producers like how Iwas early on, I didn't touch any
of the engineering or editing.
All I did was thepre-production.
(22:04):
I was on the recording to makesure it went well and
communicating with the host ofthe show or whatever to make
sure that they're getting allthe things they need to get.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Sticking to the script.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Right Writing the script for them.
Doing the edit notes and workingclosely with the engineer and
the editor and stuff, thenuploading the episode, writing
all the copy for the episode andthen keeping us on our schedule
for however long the season isgoing to be Talent booking,
finding talent, keeping up withthem, getting them signed
releases, making sure they haveeverything they need for their
(22:38):
equipment and all of that stuff.
But then there are producerswho do everything which I'm just
like God bless you.
You know what I mean.
Like I always tell people, likewhen I'm up for a role or a gig
or whatever I'm like look, I'ma rough cut editor.
That is not my full ministry.
So I just want you to know thatupfront Cause if you're looking
(22:59):
for somebody who both edits andproduces and you trying to get
them for the price of one,you're not going to get that
with me and even if you, andeven if you could do it, you
know what.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
You know what their budget is.
If their budget is saying youneed to produce and don't do
anything technical, then that'swhat you do yeah, but if the, if
the, if you know the amount ofwhat you'll be doing, if you're
going to be compensated for itright, you know and you have the
skill set.
You know as well as I know thatthey're going to hire one
(23:30):
person to do three differentpeople roles.
They'll do it if you let them.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
So you got to draw that line in the sand definitely
yeah, and I and another pointto all of that, including, like
you know, how undervalued audioprofessionals are.
What we started to see in, likeI would say, like 20.
You know how undervalued audioprofessionals are.
What we started to see in, likeI would say, like you know,
like 2019, because that's when Icame in, so that's when I
really started to see.
It might've started earlierthan that, but like 2019, 2020,
(23:57):
the top of 2021, it was all ofthese Hollywood executives
coming in and running audioproduction divisions or audio
houses, podcast divisions andeverything, and they're running
it like it's Hollywood.
And I'm like that's not what youknow.
What I mean.
Like making podcasts.
It's not the same thing, and Idon't understand all the ins and
(24:19):
outs of all the business andyou know, whatever.
But I do believe that some ofthat is part of the reason why
it's so hunger games right nowin podcasting, you know, because
all these people came in,they're throwing millions and
billions of dollars and theydon't know what they're doing
with it right you know they'reputting it in the wrong places.
They're not paying the peoplewho are doing the most of the
(24:42):
work.
They're're not paying themfairly, you know.
So yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So when you started working for Essence, um, and I
always like to kind of relatethings back to my experience and
see if, if you know, it's, uh,consistent across the board Like
when I started getting my firstlike okay, like this is my
first, like this is this is realstuff, like this is like top
tier production stuff and you,you have the skillset.
(25:09):
But then you quickly realize,like there's a moment where
you're like I can do it, but I'mnot as good as I thought I was,
think you're good.
And there's a moment where it'slike, okay, once you, once you
get surrounded by other peoplewho are your love, he was okay,
I'm, I belong in the room, butI'm not to that level.
So, like when you start workingfor essence, whereas there and
(25:29):
it even might not be the um, theskill set, it's just like the
pace at which things go, like,yeah, I can, you know I can edit
, but if they need me to bangout of something in a amount of
time and I'm like, oh man, I canedit, but I can't edit that
fast, so, um, I'm going to haveto pull an all-nighter to get it
done and they might not knowthat, like you kind of try to
have to get up to par with thespeed and the efficiency of how
(25:51):
they do things on that level.
So is that something youexperienced?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, I would say so.
The blessing of working atEssence was and it's so funny
because, like it was one of thethings that I always wanted to
do I wanted to be a writer forthe actual magazine and it ended
up that I became a producer fortheir short-lived network.
But working there, because ofthe team that I worked with, we
(26:15):
were all learning in real time.
Our executive producer, tiffany.
She had produced podcasts andstuff, but, if I'm not mistaken,
I don't think that she had everlike helmed an entire network.
So we it was.
It was four shows that werealready built and then I came on
(26:37):
to help build the fifth show,which was one for like Gen Z or
whatever the case is, and wewere all learning at like
lightning speed.
So it would be like from thetime I hit the door, say, I got
there at 10 o'clock, 1030, wewere working nonstop.
Sometimes we truly did forgetto eat because we were working
nonstop.
We had to record this, we hadto go set up for that.
We're making sure thenewsletter went out right
(26:58):
Because we were doing some ofthe digital content.
I had to hurry up and write anarticle to go with this that
could go on the dot com andthere was a lot of grace for
like mistakes, and I definitelydid feel like, oh, wow, there's
so much I need to learn.
But there wasn't a whole lot oftime to like sit in it, because
as quickly as I was thinkinglike, oh my God, there's so much
I need to learn, there wassomething else I had to do in
(27:20):
order to learn the thing I hadto do in order to learn the
thing.
So it was well, I was therefrom July 28, 2019 to, I think,
october 2020 is when we all gotfurloughed, you know, after like
the pandemic hit and stuff likethat.
And yeah, there were.
I mean, one of the main thingsthat I realized that I did not
(27:41):
know how to do until I got thereand I learned was I was not
good at juggling multiple thingsat once and dividing up my time
, and I'm like, if I'm going tobe a good producer, I have got
to figure this out.
And that was the perfect placeto learn it, because I was
working with people who handledme gently.
They weren't dictators, youknow what I mean, and I'm still
(28:05):
friends with those people tothis day.
But yeah, yeah, I've, I feltthat, but I didn't have time to
like sit in it, you know okay,so you had, you had you had that
experience with essence.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
so, like during like um, because you made a couple
references to like, yeah, I workwith this person and now here
and I work, now you know I workwith that person and they're now
over there, like, what is whatdid that experience at Essence
teach you about?
Like, like, building andmaintaining connections?
Can you just speak a little bitabout, you know, building
(28:38):
connections?
Speaker 1 (28:39):
No, I'm not burning bridges with people and staying
in contact with people and just,kind of like, continue to
nurture those relationships andstay connected with people, as,
as y'all you know, go y'allseparate ways yeah, like, like I
said, essence was like reallylike a blessing for me, because
there was a whole lot of drama,um, that was all like in the
(29:01):
news and stuff, like in 2020 andeven like fairly recently or
whatever.
For the most part, I didn'texperience any of that, because
the team that I worked with wasso tight knit, and so I think
one of the things that I learnedabout like building
relationships was like, let itbe genuine, working on that team
at Essence was the first time Ifelt like man.
(29:23):
Wherever my executive producergoes, I'm going to go with her
because I trust her that much.
If she's working until eighto'clock, I'm going to work till
eight o'clock because she wasjust that diligent and, like I
don't know, when you meet reallygenuine, good-hearted people
who are about their business, itmakes you want to be that as
(29:45):
well.
It adds fuel to the fire thatyou might already have, and so
that's how I felt about all ofthe people.
I want to say what is it?
Four or five of us, like six ofus, still keep in contact to
this day, and if it wasn't agenuine relationship, it would
have fallen off, because I'vehad trouble with the whole idea
(30:06):
of networking and I think thatit's evolved a lot over time,
because when I was younger andjust coming out of college and
stuff, it was very much likehere's my business card, we
should get lunch sometime, andI'm like this does not feel
natural to me.
This is weird, but one thing Ican say about networking and
building relationships andmaintaining them is to develop a
(30:26):
natural curiosity about otherpeople.
Like the more that I'm curiousabout other people and what
they're doing and I get my mindoff of what I need and what I
want and what I want and what Iwant, I can see possibilities
and I can learn from people andI can learn like oh well, I
never thought about this.
Or hey, you need somebody to doX, y, z.
(30:47):
Even if I can't do it, I knowsomebody who can.
You know what I mean?
Like connecting each other.
I feel like maintainingrelationships is not just about
like keeping somebody close sothat you could potentially get
something from them at somepoint.
It's like how can I help?
Or what's up with you, what'sbeen going on?
What are you into these days?
I'm genuinely interested in youas a person and it doesn't mean
(31:11):
you talk every day, all thetime.
Some people I talk to every fewmonths.
But you know that thatconnection is solid and it's
there.
And then I'll be honest withyou.
There are some people that I'veworked with where it was so
traumatic for me that I didn'tmistreat them in any way.
But I don't care if I'll neverhear from them again.
You know what I mean.
I've actively decided not tokeep that door open.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I think that's the part of I hate the term
networking because, like yousaid, it gives me the mind of
here's my card and have yourpeople call my people.
You know what I'm saying.
Type of stuff very comes offvery like contrived and all that
type of stuff.
Um, but people always talkingabout it in the sense of
obviously you want to bepositive, so you would want to
(31:55):
think that all the connectionsyou make are going to be
positive.
The reality of sometimes youmeet people and you're like if I
would have that connectionwould have never happened, I
would have been good.
Um, so that happens too.
Like everybody's not going tobecome part of your tribe.
Everybody, you know everybodydoesn't become like a close
colleague or friend or somebodyyou can really really rely on,
(32:19):
like there are different levelswithin that as well.
So, moving on from essence, um,I think this is probably what
the connection thing comes intoplay too.
So correct me if I'm wrong.
Like when you kind of startdoing like your own thing.
If that is correct, can youtouch on that and like what that
process was like?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, so October 2020,.
It's so funny because I was inChicago visiting my partner at
the time and I woke up and I waslike, all right, let me get
myself together and go like login right for work, because I
still was going to, you know,work and I was like, why is my
password not working?
(32:58):
Like nothing was working.
And so I went on Slack and Imessaged my executive producer
and I was like, hey, my login isnot working.
But I am like you know, I'mawake, I'm here, I'm trying to
do all things.
She was like none of our noneof our stuff is working.
We're about to have a meetingand basically the meeting was
like oh, y'all been furloughed.
(33:21):
It was, if I'm honest, like look, essence has been an
institution in Black householdssince forever, but I just felt
like man, the way that theyhandled that and like layoffs
and firings and stuff.
I was just like bro, I'm takingnotes just in case I'm ever at
the helm of the business,because I do not want to treat
people like this.
Like you know what I mean, likeoof, it was bad, but I gotta be
(33:50):
honest with you.
There was a part of me that wasrelieved, because it was like
the pandemic took a lot out ofall of us and I don't know that
we all like a lot of like, we'restill like reeling from it a
little bit, but we got to keepgoing.
You know what I mean.
So this was October 2020.
And I was just like okay, youknow, we're going to be able to
collect unemployment, all that.
Whatever, I'll be okay, I'llgive myself like a month or two
to just like relax, come downoff of all the you know cause,
(34:11):
working from home and doing thevolume of work that we were
doing at Essence, that was a lotLike I was chained to my desk,
you know, at home, and so I tooksome months to just not do
anything.
And then, in December, I signedup for Air Media.
Signed up for Air Media becauseI was like, all right, let me
(34:32):
figure out what it looks like tobe an independent producer and
put myself out there.
So I signed up for Air Mediasometime in December.
I want to say maybe like thesecond to last week of December.
In December, I want to saymaybe like the second to last
week of December, the first weekof January I get an email from
(34:53):
a man named Dossie McCraw whowas an executive producer, or is
an executive producer on EbonyK Williams' show, which had
literally just started, I think,in like November of 2020.
He found me through Air Media.
So it was literally like acouple of weeks.
I was like bro, god is crazy,this is good, hit me up.
I got to be honest, I was verytimid, but everything about the
process was fair, it wasequitable.
(35:16):
You know what I mean.
I didn't have to fight for theright rate and all these
different things and I was likeall right, this white guy is all
right.
You know what I mean?
Like okay, cool, and I metEbony and that was 2021.
And I've been working on hershow ever since.
After that, I volunteered on acouple of shows and I worked on
(35:37):
some other shows, got paid forit and everything.
Great experience.
But it was like everythinghappened progressively.
You know what I mean.
But Ebony's show was one of theones that I said I'll continue
to work on and I told her.
I said I'll continue to produceyour show as long as you want
me to produce your show and aslong as you're doing a show,
(35:58):
because I had never worked onsomething before where Because
your family.
Sometimes they'd be like, ohyeah, they keep telling people
I'm on the radio and I was likey'all got to stop telling people
that because that's not what Ido.
And then in black households,anytime you ever do anything
with a celebrity, they'll sayyou need to work with that Tyler
(36:21):
Perry.
It's so funny.
But I said I would work onEbony's show for as long as she
wanted to have a show, because Ihadn't seen anybody do a legal
podcast.
That was so down to earth andmade you want to listen and
(36:41):
learn more about how all thesedifferent headlines, the things
that she was pulling out of them, it's like yo, this really
could affect my everyday life.
Let me tune in.
My family was listening to it.
My sister and my brother bingedthe show and I was like I think
working on her show is whatmade me realize you have to
decide what kind of produceryou're going to be, because I
feel like for a lot of usthere's like a fork in the road
(37:05):
sometimes where it's like areyou going to be the kind of
producer where you'll just doanything and most of it's
probably going to be all thesalacious stuff, or are you
going to have like standards foryourself?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Let me jump in real quick because I wanted to touch
on that as well.
I think there's kind of a giftand a curse.
I'm like this is what I had inmind when I wanted to work in
the industry.
Like I'm being paid fairly,it's real, it's not corny, it's
not something I wouldn't listento if I wasn't working on it.
Like I don't want to work onsomething.
(37:36):
Then I tell people about it, golisten to it and I know, like
this, they'll be lucky to getthrough an episode.
So when you work on stuff likethat, or you work with a team
like that and get introduced to,it's like when you are
presented other things, you youjust want to realize how much
you want to just say no to allthe other stuff.
But it's like I gotta find abalance between doing that and I
(37:57):
want to actually get work,consistent work, and and
continue to make a living, likeyou said.
Like there's that fork in theroad like do you, do you chase
the bag?
Do you, you know, only work onthings that are interesting and
exciting to you and everythingin between, and I've kind of
I've kind of dealt with that too.
(38:18):
To transition to to the actualquestion like what do you do you
look for, like you know, onceyou go freelance and you're
doing your own thing, what arethe things that you prioritize?
So speak on that, if you will.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah, I mean nowadays and this is the other part of
it too, right, and I'm sure youwould agree like, being an
independent producer is veryfeast or famine, right?
You have years where you'redoing real good, right, you
don't have to worry aboutnothing, bop, bop, bop.
Then you have times, years ormonths or whatever, where it's
like, okay, rent is going to bedue, you know.
(38:55):
And so there is the temptationto be like man, let me just take
this gig, so I don't have to.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
And this gets into like I don'tknow, like the woo-woo of it
all.
But I really do feel like, themore that I look at it from an
abundance mindset of like I'msaying no to this so that all
the other things that areactually for me can find me and
I could find them.
(39:15):
The more that I do that, themore the opportunities start to
align for me.
So, like last year, I was flownout to LA to work on a show,
worked on the first episode, andI think from the time I mean
even before I got out there, Ihad the worst feeling about it.
It just wasn't.
It wasn't for me, man, and Iwas like I can't fake the funk
(39:37):
for this.
And so I had a conversationwith the producers and I was
like and the producers were coolpeople Don't get me wrong but I
was like this show, man, it'snot for me, it's not for me,
it's not for me.
And I remember on the call Isaid I can't do this show
anymore.
I was like so I'm fine with youpaying me for the, because I
(39:57):
think I worked out for fourepisodes, I had done scripts or
something like that.
I said because I produced thefirst two episodes.
I said, cool, you can keep myname on it and everything.
I was like, but take my nameoff of it.
I didn't promote it nowhere, Ididn't tell nobody I was working
on it.
It was just like no, this isnot aligned, and that's what
(40:20):
I'll say.
It's not about being abovesomething, or oh, this is not
good enough for me, it was notaligned for me, and I was like I
cannot keep taking gigs whereit's not aligned and I'm
miserable, because then it'slike bro, I need time to recover
from this now, because I didn'tstress myself out working on
something that wasn't for me,and so I really look at who's
(40:42):
the person.
That is the talent that I'mgoing to be working with from
day to day.
Are they collaborative?
Do they show up on time?
Do they treat people well?
Do they have something to say,or are they just getting behind
a mic and just talking a bunchof crap that I don't care to
hear?
If what is happening on thisshow is giving people true
(41:04):
insight into something, orteaching us something, or
allowing us to feel better thanwe did before we listened to it,
I can be on board with that,and those are some of the things
that I kind of look for.
But if it's all this finaglingand trying to pay me the least
amount as possible and peopleare constantly coming in and
(41:25):
then leaving the project andlike it's a revolving door.
Those are all red flags.
Disorganization behind thescenes all red flags.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
So we're rounding third, butit's a couple, a couple more
points that I do want to touchon.
So the work that we do, likewe've already mentioned, it's a
lot of work, whether you love itor not.
Obviously, when you don't loveit, it seems like more work.
So what is what is your likeroutine?
Like you need to at some point.
(41:53):
You need to be able to to, todo it in a healthy, sustainable
way.
You need to be able to stepaway and say I'm not doing no
more work today, or before youstart working, you may have like
a routine or a process thatjust kind of grounds you and
allows you to do the best workyou can do, and then, once it's
(42:13):
done, whether you have like anunwinding process or whatever
that looks like for you.
So what for you like what?
What does that encompass?
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah.
So I'll be honest, I'm figuringout what my routine looks like
nowadays Because one of myprevious contracts because it
was a full-time contract I wasable to structure things better
because that was my main focusand the only other thing I was
working on was Ebony's show, andthen that show was on a hiatus
for a long time.
So all I had was the full-timecontract full-time contract.
(42:44):
Now it's.
I'm working on two shows right.
Then I have audio booknarration.
I'm also working a retail job.
You know what I mean.
So it's like all thesedifferent things happening, and
so I'm in the process of liketweaking things to like really
figure out what works.
The good thing is that the twoshows that I work on, even
(43:06):
though they both release on thesame day, the way that I go
about the recordings and allthat is totally different and
those are on different days.
So I know my Mondays andTuesdays are for the one show
and then for the most part it'slike Wednesday, thursday, friday
.
Sometimes it's just Wednesdayand Thursday it's for the other
(43:26):
show.
I am trying to figure out what'sthe sweet spot in terms of when
I start working.
Each day I feel like 9 o'clock,9.30 is a good sweet spot.
But sometimes I find myselfstarting to work earlier than
that because I'm like you knowhow you have anxiety and you're
like I just want to get some ofthis stuff done, so my brain
isn't consumed with it.
So sometimes I'm up as early asseven in the morning.
(43:49):
But some of the things I do tosort of like ground myself is
like I'm a tea drinker, so Ilike to have tea in the morning
Every now and then I meditate,but for the most part it's like
I'm journaling, whether I'mjournaling my prayers out or
just journaling like aboutwhat's going on with me so I can
get that out.
I will either read or listen tothe Bible or a book and those,
(44:10):
and then also I'm like tendingto all my 31 plants.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah, I saw that in your bio.
I'm glad you mentioned thatwe're not going to spend too
much time but for thoselistening, you will not be able
to see the video of thisinterview, but I can see her and
she has like a whole family ofplants behind her, so that
checks out.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yeah, so that's the way that I kind of like I'm
tweaking it, but that's sort ofwhat my routine looks like right
now.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
OK, thank you for sharing that.
In answering that question, youmentioned that the voiceover
and the narration work.
Obviously, you know we followeach other on social media, so I
saw that you were doing thatand when I actually reached out
to you in regards to thisinterview, you said you know you
(44:58):
had an inclination to want tostep out more of the forefront
and come from behind the scenes.
Obviously, this interview isshining more of a light on you
directly, but I feel like the VOnarration work.
They may have been like yourfirst foray into making a
transition, so like how did thatcome about?
And like how are you enjoyingthat process?
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, it came about because what was it like a
couple years ago I was workingon a project was like a couple
years ago I was working on aproject and I had to read an
essay for it.
It was we were putting togethera podcast and we were doing
like a chemistry read betweenthe hosts and they had to listen
to a very short essay and thenrespond to it.
So I read the essay in dramaticform for them and the engineer
(45:47):
I was working with, who's like25 years in radio, he does
voiceover and stuff.
He was like Ash, you could docommercials, you could do
audiobooks, blah, blah, blah.
And I was like you think so?
And he said yeah, and then abunch of other people had said
it to me over the years and Ihad forgotten that.
I said I wanted to get intovoice work back in like 2017.
(46:07):
But he helped me put together aWeo demo reel and then a friend
of mine asked me to do somevoiceover for his YouTube
channel.
So that was like my first likereal, you know work in that area
.
And then last year I recorded myfirst audio book for Penguin,
random House, which was verycool because the book got chosen
(46:30):
for Reese Witherspoon's bookclub pick, which was so cool,
and I've just been auditioning,and all of that ever since I
starred in two fiction podcasts.
Last year I had a small role inanother fiction podcast that
just won Tribeca's audioselections, which was super cool
.
So it all kind of like, justyou know, happens sequentially.
(46:50):
It's not it's not happeningsteadily, but it's happening
sequentially and I like it.
I like it a lot because I getto perform, which is something
that I feel like I always wantedto do since I was a kid.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Yeah, I was going to say that sounds like it's full
circle from when you were a kidand you, you know, you kind of,
you kind of share with that,that with us earlier in the
episode.
All right, last couple things.
So you mentioned air mediapreviously, which is the
association of independent radioand audio creators, something,
something similar to that.
(47:21):
It's a group I'm also a part of.
What other like groups orcommunities, are you a part of
that you found helpful?
As far as presenting newopportunities, like I mentioned
also earlier, continue to evolveyour skill set, whether it's
classes or seminars, whetherin-person or virtual, or just
(47:43):
connecting with other people inthe industry as well, connecting
with other people in theindustry as well, because this,
this audio, and this may be thecase for media in general, but
especially in audio if you'renot, like, mentally strong, if
you can't sustain, like, thewaves and the ups and downs and
the, you know, seasons ofcertainty and it seems like even
more seasons of uncertainty,you could go crazy.
(48:05):
If you, if you don't have a,like a support system whether
it's, like we mentioned, thegroup chat, people who are super
, super close, or a more broadavenue to feel supported and all
those type of things.
What else are you a part ofoutside of Air Media?
Speaker 1 (48:23):
So I'm a part of a group called the Freelancers Hub
.
It's not solely towards audioprofessionals, but it's for
anybody who's a creative,independent creative and they
have all sorts of really coolthings in Brooklyn, in different
parts of the city sometimes too, where they have like legal
(48:43):
clinics, so you could come withyour questions that you have
around forming your LLC orgetting paid because somebody
didn't stiff you all thesedifferent things.
You can go get your headshotsdone for free, you can use any
of their workstations for somehours per day for free, or you
(49:05):
could pay whatever.
They have all sorts of reallycool events and workshops and
stuff.
So that's another thing thatI'm a part of.
But honestly, I feel like thoseare the only two groups.
Air Media and Freelancers Hubare the only two groups I'm a
part of.
Everything else really is thegroup chats that I'm in.
I'm in a group chat of allBlack women who are in audio in
(49:26):
some way shape or form, whetherthey're on the admin side or
production side.
Then I have my group chat ofall the women who I work with at
Essence and we get togetherevery now and then and, yeah,
I'm just kind of like keeping intouch with different people
through LinkedIn sometimes, andthen also through Instagram as
well.
So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
So yeah, thank you for sharing without.
Just a bit of advice for peoplelistening, like, yeah, just
when I first got my start, I wasin like facebook groups that's.
I think that's how I got likemy first paying gig.
Um, just just, you know,obviously there are tons of
platforms and like social mediaapps and you know all these
different ways for you to youknow, get information and learn,
(50:07):
learn the ins and outs of theindustry, or maybe not specific
to audio, like you said, justfor people who are creatives or
independent producers, all thosetypes of things.
So I encourage you all.
I kind of explored LinkedIngroups, but I haven't really
dove deep into it, but I thinkthat may be something for people
(50:28):
to explore as well.
So just always seek out thosethings that could potentially be
helpful, no matter if you'relike the in the beginning,
middle or, uh, further along inyour career.
So, to end on a lighter note, Igot a couple questions to ask.
This is a podcast specific tothe, the audio medium, so I just
(50:48):
wanted to curious.
Uh, you mentioned that you youwent through your r&b music
phase.
I love r&b music, so thesedon't kind of be music centered
questions, but I'm curious toknow what your taste is, and I
have in mind, like what some ofyour responses would be, so I'm
curious to know if I'm like onthe mark or completely off.
So what is your favorite albumof all time, no matter what
(51:12):
genre?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
All right.
So because I was born in the80s and because I grew up in the
church, the Winans family wasvery big in my house BB and CC
Winans.
Their Heaven album was one ofthe best things that ever
happened to gospel music, Ithink because it was one of
those albums that crossed overin a dope-ass way I don't know
(51:37):
if I can say that about gospelmusic but in such a great way.
Whitney Houston was singingbackup.
She just left her own tour tocome and sing backup for her
friends because she just wantedto be on tour with her friends
and it was some of the bestmusic.
I feel like that came out ofthe late 80s.
So I would say BB and CeCeWinans' Heaven album.
I know all the songs.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
I'm going to give it a listen.
I'm going to give it a listen.
All right, moving right along.
Who is your favorite musicproducer?
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Ooh, my favorite music producer is probably Jimmy
Jam and Terry Lewis.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
They're definitely top five all the time.
All right, last two.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Favorite TV theme song.
It's probably going to bemoving on up the Jeffersons.
That's one of my favorite TVshows.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
I love George Jefferson so much.
It's catchy and if you happento catch an episode and catch
that theme, you'll catchyourself in the grocery store
singing it.
Word.
So yeah, that's definitelyiconic.
And the last is favorite filmscore.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Favorite film score.
It's going to be wait, you saidscore, not soundtrack, because
I'm, so, I'm like because I'm,if I'm gonna say score, if we're
gonna say score, then it wouldbe the prince of egypt probably
prince of egypt.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Okay, what about soundtrack waiting to exhale?
I think that's the best oneever.
So.
I was curious and you and I andI feel like you probably have
read the isn't, it, wasn't it abook first?
Speaker 1 (53:12):
it was a book first, but I was, I was young, I was, I
think I was only like 12, um,so I didn't.
I didn't read the book becauseI was reading, like you know,
books for my age group at thetime.
But the soundtrack I meanBabyface is a freaking,
phenomenal songwriter and just apersuader to get people on the
album because, if I'm notmistaken, chaka khan didn't want
(53:33):
to do it and he got her onthere yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
I think that's not to go too deep, but I think that's
one of the the like the bestproducers, songwriters, or
combination of the two.
Like you can get people toconvince people, you have to be,
you have to sell it to them.
Like you know, they might, theymay want to work with you, like
you might want to.
You might write a song that'slike obviously a smash, and
(53:57):
they're like yeah, I want to dothat one.
Or they can be like I want todo it.
And then you're like but I havethis other song that I think
you should do too, and they'relike I don't know if I'm.
You know well, you can't get tosmash if you don't do this one
too.
So you got to be a masterpersuader.
But Babyface, you know,basically everybody you
mentioned within this list areall legends.
(54:20):
So I'm definitely in agreeancethere, for sure.
All right, I think we have.
I think we're there.
We hit on a lot of, a lot ofgreat topics.
You went through a lot ofthings.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
Yeah, man.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
So I appreciate you sharing all that and giving all
that insight, but, before we go,just share with the people
where they can find you onlineon the socials, all that type of
good stuff, and if they wouldlike to connect with you, how
can they do so?
Speaker 1 (54:55):
For sure.
So my website is ashleyjhcom,so that's A-S-H-L-E-Y-J-Hcom.
You can find me on LinkedInAshley J Hobbs.
Let's see what else.
Instagram Ashley J Hobbs.
I'm on TikTok too, but it'sjust for me to watch things.
I don't really post on there,but, yeah, I post about my shows
(55:16):
.
I'm doing a little series nowon Instagram about being a
producer and stuff like that.
So, yeah, you can check me outthere sharing.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Uh, super, super grateful that you decided to hop
on.
Like I said, this is the firstofficial episode, so I'm kind of
at a loss for words like thisis this, is this is really, it's
officially a thing now.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
This is dope.
It's a great conversation and Ilike the back and forth because
you know sometimes people justask the question and then be
like, okay, let's move on to thenext one.
But I love the conversationalaspect of this.
So, yeah, congrats, becausethis is going to be awesome.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Yeah, I think this is a good start.
Yeah, thank you for joining andthank you everyone for
listening.
Thank you for joining us ontoday's episode.
Please don't forget tosubscribe to the show and leave
us a review.
If you'd like to work with meor connect, please go to
(56:13):
soundbysitcom and schedule acall there.
You can also check out the fulllist of productions I've worked
on.
If you'd like to connect onsocial media, my handle is
soundbysitcom on Twitter andInstagram and I'm Sidney Evans
on LinkedIn.
Don't forget to follow Beyondthe Threshold on Instagram as
well.
I'll catch you on the nextepisode.
So the blessing of working at Essence was because
of the team that I worked with.
We were all learning at likelightning speed, but there
wasn't a whole lot of time tolike sit in it, because as
quickly as I was thinking like,oh my God, there's so much I
need to learn, there wassomething else I had to do in
order to learn the thing.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Tune in as we give flowers to black men and women
making waves in the audioindustry.
I'm your host, sydney Evans,and this is Beyond the Threshold
.
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen,to Beyond the Threshold.
(00:45):
I'm your host, sidney Evans, anaward-winning audio editor and
producer.
For those who don't know, thisshow is dedicated to
interviewing Black men and womenworking in the audio industry,
while highlighting the lessonsand experiences it takes to
achieve success in the field.
I will introduce our guestshortly, but first and foremost,
(01:07):
I just want to say I can'tbelieve I'm really here.
This is the first officialepisode.
Hopefully you have listened toepisode zero.
In the teaser, which I havealready released, we can get
more familiar with the conceptand the premise from the show
from my perspective, as well asa little bit about my background
.
But for the first time todayyou'll be hearing the voice of
(01:29):
someone else.
We're going to have a greatinterview in store.
We're going to get into thenitty gritty, but just thank
everybody for listening and Ihope you continue to support and
very grateful to have you all.
So to introduce our guest, justto give a brief bio, she is a
three-time NAACP ImageAward-winning podcast producer,
(01:54):
writer, narrator and voiceoverartist.
She's produced with DCPEntertainment, essence, Warner
Music Group, interval Presents,spotify and more.
She currently leads productionon shows like Holdin' Court with
Ebony K Williams, which was thewinner of the 2024 NAACP Image
Award for Outstanding News andInformation Podcast, as well as
(02:17):
the Tour Ray Show.
Her short fiction has beenpublished with Midnight and
Indingo, and she most recentlynarrated Delaina RA Dameron's
literary debut, redwood Court.
Not only did she start out as acolleague, but she has turned
into a friend of mine, and I wasthrilled when she agreed to
come onto the show.
(02:37):
So, without further ado, I'dlike to introduce to you all
Ashley J Hobbs.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Hey, thank you.
Thank you for inviting me,Sydney.
This is dope what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I appreciate it.
We've been connected for sometime and it looked like there
were going to be moments wherewe potentially had the
opportunity to work together.
It hasn't happened quite yet,so it seems like this was just
the perfect moment for us toreally get into the nitty gritty
of things and collaborate anddo something together, so we're
(03:11):
just going to jump right into it.
As I mentioned, I've known herfor quite a few years.
I'm more familiar with thestuff she has done more recently
, but I do not know too muchabout her background.
Do not know too much about herbackground.
So, ashley, if you could justshare that you know where you
grew up, where you from.
Like what was young Ashley?
(03:31):
Like where were your passions,you know, and interests at a
young age?
I'm curious to know.
I'm sure everyone else is aswell.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, man.
So yeah, I grew up in centralJersey, in a town called
Piscataway, which is, ifanybody's familiar with New
Jersey, you know, like Rutgersuniversity has their biggest
campuses um, right in Piscatawayslash new Brunswick area.
So I grew up there.
There were different phases inmy life, right?
So there was a phase where Iwanted to be an R and B singer,
cause you know I was listeningto the people at the time, right
, so it was Whitney Houston,mary J Blige, mariah Carey, all
(04:09):
of them.
And then I wanted to be afirefighter for a smooth minute.
I wanted to be a ballerina.
It was like all these differentthings Like I don't know, it's
just like random things.
Once you saw it then you'relike oh, I think I'm interested
in that.
I saw the 96 Olympics and I sawhow the US team truly brought
home all the gold medals and Iwas like I want to be a gymnast.
(04:31):
That lasted for a couple ofsummers, but it was a thing that
I did as a kid.
But I think the most enduringthing was always being a writer.
I didn't know what it meant tobe a producer or anything like
that at the time.
I just knew that I could likewrite stories or put stories
together some sort of way, andthen that started to evolve
(04:52):
through the years.
I always sort of like wrotelittle short stories and stuff A
lot of them.
I didn't finish.
I didn't start actuallyfinishing my writing until I got
older in my thirties, but I wasalways writing.
And then it evolved intoactually like figuring out what
that looks like in terms of likecontent production and then
audio production.
A few years ago, when I startedworking with Essence- Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So I think the curiosity you had just for you
know, exploring those differentthings is like a great mindset
to have.
I know a lot of uh, when peoplekids are younger, they're into
so many things and want to tryso many things and unfortunately
, a lot of parents kind of likesuppress that and try to like
(05:36):
reel it in and I think, as a kidlike you kind of got to just
let them go and just try andexplore things.
So, um, it's good that you youknow it doesn't seem like you
had anyone who tried to likeeliminate, eliminate that from
you, because I feel like a lot,of a lot, you know, when that
happens you don't end uphonestly doing the thing that
you love to do.
(05:57):
You kind of just go with whatpeople say are more practical
and you kind of kill like thosecreative juices and that
creative energy.
So I'm glad that was not thecase with you.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
It actually kind of was the case.
So a part of my growing up wasI was raised in like the
Pentecostal church, apostolicchurch, whatever, which
dependent I mean no, notdependent like it is a very
strict denomination ofChristianity, and so there was a
lot of things like, even as achild, like it is a very strict
(06:28):
denomination of Christianity.
And so there was a lot ofthings like, even as a child,
like I was very interested inmovies and TV and all of that,
wanted to be an actor, all thatkind of stuff, and it was always
like, oh, like that's bad,that's a sin, right and so.
Or like Hollywood or Broadway,all of that is like the devil's
playground, like those sorts ofmessages, right, and so reading
(06:51):
was fine and I could write all Iwanted.
But to actually start to goafter opportunities when I got
older, it was difficult at firstuntil my family left the church
that we were in, and thatwasn't until I was 30.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
And I'm now 38.
So over the span of eight years, I've been able to become like
this creative person, who's likeproducing podcasts and being a
voice artist and like you knowwhat I mean Like I performed a
monologue on stage last yearLike all these things happen in
a span of eight years.
So it's like all this arresteddevelopment and then, in years
(07:24):
of this, this like creativegrowth.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
OK, so we're definitely going to focus more
on the eight year period alittle later in the episode, but
I'm just curious as to like sowith the first, within the first
30 years, like what was thefirst like thing you pursued or
you decided to like do as a, tolike provide for yourself, like
once you became an adult pursued, or you decided to like do as
(07:47):
the, to like provide foryourself, like once you became
an adult.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So I went to a women's college down kind of
close to the Jersey shore, and Iremember I was part of a group
called Wild, which was the womenin leadership development
program, like so, all ofundergrad.
I was part of that program andI was really active.
And so then the provost of thecollege said to me you should
stay, get your master's degreeand be a grad assistant that
runs the Women in LeadershipDevelopment Program.
And because I didn'tnecessarily want to go home
(08:15):
right away, because I wasn'tsure what I would do, I stayed,
got a free master's in businessadministration.
I wasn't even interested in anMBA, but I was like I need to
figure some other things out.
So that grad assistantship, Ithink, was like my first sort of
like okay, I guess I could dothis.
This is something that myfamily will understand, it's not
(08:35):
too far left.
And yeah, I don't have.
You know what I mean.
I have to do all thisexplanation.
And so when I was finished withthe program, with running the
program and getting my MBA, well, first of all, it was also a
smart move for me because when Igraduated, I graduated in 2008.
The bubble burst and all thethings, and it was no jobs, blah
, blah, blah.
So I was like I might as welljust stay and get another degree
(08:57):
, because there's nothing outthere.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Right, right right.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So when I finished the MBA program it still took a
little while for me to find ajob.
And it was so funny becausepeople were like, oh, you have
an MBA, you're going to find ajob making $60,000 right out of
school, no problem, that was notthe case.
After that it took me a coupleof years to find a job.
I was an adjunct professor fora while.
I taught developmental Englishat a local community college.
(09:23):
Oh man, then I was an executiveassistant to a dean at that
same community college.
So these are all things in likeacademia that you know my
family is not going to question.
I'm making decent money at home.
I'm not going to New York andLA and all the place.
You know what I mean.
But I got fired from theexecutive assistant job because
I was.
I was not doing my job.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You was not built for that.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I wasn't.
I said like, of the differenttimes I got fired, I deserved
that one because I was just onFacebook.
I'm not even going to hold youLike I was on Facebook.
I just was not into being anexecutive assistant and I just,
you know how, you just know youdon't fit someplace and you're
trying to make yourself fit, butit just doesn't work.
From there I don't even know.
(10:07):
I was like Googling, trying tofind places that like were doing
work with black women in anykind of way, shape or form, and
I ended up working at anonprofit in Crown Heights,
brooklyn.
I did that for like a year anda half left that.
Then I worked at Bloomingdale's.
I was all over the place.
I was all over the place.
Then, after Bloomingdale's, Imoved to DC and I worked at an
(10:27):
education tech company for alittle less than a year.
Now that one I got fired fromand there was no, truly no, just
cause Cause, like all thestudents were, I had rave
reviews from all my students andit was just like no explanation
.
And then that led me to.
You know, I was depressed forlike two weeks.
I didn't like really leave myapartment because I'm like I
(10:48):
moved down here and now.
I don't have income except, youknow, unemployment, but
thankfully, like, my parentshelped me out, you know, like my
car note helping me to makerent and all that and I just
felt like that was this was thetime.
This was the moment I feel likewas very defining for me.
I don't think I would be, Idon't think that I would have
(11:08):
been able to do all the thingsthat I've done to date, over
these last eight years that wetalked about earlier if I didn't
make the choice that I did in2018 when I got fired from that
job, because I was like I'mgoing to use what little money I
have and some credit cards andI'm going to try the things.
It just kept coming to me.
Production kept coming to meand I was like I got to figure
this out.
So I was like, let me see if Ilike live event production.
(11:30):
So I volunteered at theAmerican Black Film Festival
down in Miami, barely had themoney to go right, I didn't have
money for the first night, so Islept in the airport the first
night and then the next coupleof nights I slept in a hotel
room with like three other girls, so we didn't even know each
other and I worked the event.
It was cool, you know.
(11:50):
I met a lot of really greatpeople, learned a whole lot
about the film industry.
But I realized, like live eventproduction is not for me, right
, but I'm glad that I had thatexperience but the seed was
already planted.
I was like there's something inthis kind of space.
It's just not this thing, right.
And I remember an old sermonfrom like TD Jakes, and he said
(12:13):
he was talking to his sonbecause he was his son, was
about to go to school, I thinkfor music or whatever.
I think he asked his son likewhy are you not?
You don't seem like you'reexcited, or whatever.
And his son was like, in somany words his son was saying
like I'm not sure if this iswhat I'm supposed to be doing
and I don't want you and mom towaste your money.
(12:34):
Td Jakes said to his son, ifthis isn't the thing, it'll be
the thing that leads to thething, right.
And so I feel like that's whatwas happening with me was like
live event production wasn't thething, but it was one of the
things that led to the thing.
And so came back to DC, signedup for a television production
class at the local like TVstation and then I forgot that I
had applied for an advertisingproduction fellowship in New
(12:56):
York City.
I got that at the same time.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So Tuesday nights, so you're doing both.
Everybody has a story and theylead, you know, bridges that
they had to cross and moments,but I feel like we still kind of
early on in the story.
You done went through somestuff.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
No, for real.
Because I was like I want to doboth and I was like I have the
time because I got fired.
I don't have a want to do bothand I was like I have the time
because I got fired.
I don't have a full-time jobnow.
So Tuesday nights I was in DCat my TV production class.
Then either Tuesday night afterthe class or Wednesday morning
I would drive home to Jersey,take a quick nap, then take the
(13:38):
train into the city to grayadvertising and then go do that
whole thing to gray advertisingand then go, you know like do
that whole thing and then atsome point in the week I would
drive back to DC.
And I did that.
I think it was eight weeks Ihad to do that.
And I look back on it now andI'm like, bro, how did you have
the energy?
Like that's crazy, that'sreally crazy.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I was just that was going to be.
That was like what was in myhead.
It was like when you're goingthrough it you're like yo, I'm
crazy.
But then you look back you'relike, yeah, I was still crazy,
but it was a level ofappreciation, Like I kind of did
what I had to do.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
To make it honestly.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, and I mean like again, I learned a whole lot
from those two experiences.
I definitely knew thatadvertising production wasn't
for me, but I gleaned so manythings that actually ended up
helping me in my writing, helpedme in content production, even
for when I started working atEssence, Because when I started
(14:36):
working at Essence my title wasdigital production, but it was
understood that it was thepodcast network.
It ended up that I startedwriting articles for Essencecom.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So it's like things that I learned in the
advertising fellowship totallyapplied to how I wrote those
articles and, like SEO and likeall these different things that
I never would weren'tnecessarily right on par with
what you wanted to be doing,ultimately did end up being very
helpful down the line for you.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yep, yep, exactly that.
So, yeah, I mean I did that.
I ended up having to move home.
Almost I think it was like ayear to the date that I had
moved to DC.
About two and a half, threeweeks later I ended up having
emergency surgery.
Nobody knew I was going to haveto have surgery, so I was down
for like a month and a half, Ithink, and it was actually
(15:33):
really bad.
I was on a walker, then I had acane, it was just like a whole
thing and I was like, well dang,this is messing me up, because
now my unemployment had run out,I'm back at home, I have bills
that I have to pay and I don'thave any income.
And I forgot that earlier inthat summer I had applied for
(15:56):
basically I forgot what my titlewas, but there was a playhouse
in New Brunswick where peoplecame and did stage plays and I
applied to be a ticket takerthere and literally a few weeks
after my surgery I was still ona cane but I was able to walk
upright and all that kind ofstuff.
(16:16):
It wasn't too bad.
They reached out to me andwanted an interview.
So I remember I had my frienddrive me over there and I was
like I got to leave my cane inyour car because I don't need
them saying I can't have thisjob.
And it was something like Idon't even know if it was $12 an
hour, but I was like I justneed something that's going to
keep me above water financiallyso even if I have to pay the
(16:38):
bare minimums on everything, atleast I'm not getting behind.
And then the other part aboutit too not to make this too long
, but the other part about ittoo was this was a job where I
could sit down.
I didn't have to be standingand moving around and all these
things, because I had hadsurgery on my stomach and I was
thinking about it.
I was like I need a job wheremy body can heal and I don't
(16:58):
have to be doing a whole bunchof strenuous work so that
eventually I can start applyingto like production jobs in the
city this, that and the third.
So that's what ended uphappening.
I ended up working that job.
I learned again.
I learned so much from theplaywrights, so much from
watching the plays, so much fromwatching the crew come in and
(17:18):
set up the sets and all of thatkind of.
I learned so freaking much.
And then, five months to sixmonths later, a friend of mine
was like hey, I saw that you hadposted on Instagram you were
looking for a production work.
This and a third Do you want tobe my associate producer for
Essence in a couple of weeks?
Because I may not be able tomake it whatever.
(17:40):
So, long story short, I went toBrooklyn that was the day they
had Alicia Keys cover shoot.
This was 2019.
The connections I made that dayI want to say that it was
either April or May of 2019.
The connections I made that daygot me a full-time job at
Essence by July 1st of the sameyear.
(18:00):
And then that was like trulythe start of my production
journey.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
That's, that's that's like I said that's a lot, but
you know it's, it's a I thinkit's a lesson to, like I said,
just, you kind of do what yougot to do to get to where you
want to go, and also into like,if you, if you think you want to
do, pursue something, you tryit and it it.
(18:27):
Like I said, it's not exactlyon par, I feel like a lot of
people would just okay, you'dlike you do the live event
production.
It's not for you, it's like, ohwell, it's not immediate, let
me go do something.
But you didn't.
You knew it was still withinthat realm, but you maybe just
had to pivot a little bit.
And I went through similarexperience as well.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Um, but like, did you ever have like a moment where
you, where you did think like,well, maybe, maybe this isn't
for me, of course, like at all,because, like I'm trying to
remember if I felt that way?
I think the only times I mighthave felt that way is if I felt
like the money wasn't comingquick enough.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, I mean, I mean I definitely went through that
and I was going to say just alittle bit later for the show,
but like, all right.
So before we get to the, to theessence stuff, and you're
building upon that, I feel likethis is since you just brought
it up and so like, do you feellike the work we do in audio and
(19:28):
just the medium in general islike extremely undervalued?
But when, if you go, go to anevent and there's no music, like
there's no, the energy is gone.
If you watch a movie andthere's no soundtrack, there's
no special effects, like it'sflat, like to you.
Like there is a story but youdon't, you're not connected to
(19:51):
it.
So just you know, in yourexperience working in the
industry, like you know whatpeople are willing to pay for,
you know, uh, engineers, or youknow, let's say, making a short
film is like you want all thetop camera equipment, whatever,
but you throw peanuts at, youknow the budget for the sound
(20:12):
and then when you're, whenyou're, you're, you're, your
film is, it doesn't connect.
You're like what happened?
Like you didn't check all theboxes, you didn't value what you
were supposed to value.
So do you feel like the audiomedium and the people that work
in the industry are undervaluedin a general sense.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I would say I would say yes, in, in, in, like a
majority of the spaces.
Yes, it's undervalued, it canall, it can almost be
intimidating Cause it's likewell, man, if I want to stay in
this, then maybe I should lowermy rates a little bit, just so I
you know what I mean, like, andthen it's like but, man, I have
all these years of experienceand this stuff takes time it
(20:49):
does it takes time, like me as aproducer, and it's so funny
because people are like, well,what does a producer do?
and I was like, well, it dependson the producer.
You ask, right?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
so I'm glad you said that too, because that's another
question I was gonna get you.
I work in the industry and I'vehad to find myself trying to
really hone in and narrow likewhat in the most simplest form.
If I was to describe it tosomeone like what do they do so
from your, from your experienceand your perspective?
Like, in the most simple waypossible, a producer does.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I can't remember who we heard say this, but it was
while I was at Essence, cause Iremember me and my executive
producer at the time, tiffanyAshite.
She's now like, I think likeglobal director over at ACAST
now, but we were both in theroom and someone said something
like I'm an organizer of chaos,and Tiffany was like I'm going
(21:43):
to use that because that'sexactly what we do as producers,
like we organize the chaos.
And Tiffany was like I'm goingto use that because that's
exactly what we do as producers,like we organize the chaos.
And I, yeah, I think like, in avery like simple way, that's
what a producer does.
But I think, like, depending onwhat your skillset is, there
are some producers like how Iwas early on, I didn't touch any
of the engineering or editing.
All I did was thepre-production.
(22:04):
I was on the recording to makesure it went well and
communicating with the host ofthe show or whatever to make
sure that they're getting allthe things they need to get.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Sticking to the script.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Right Writing the script for them.
Doing the edit notes and workingclosely with the engineer and
the editor and stuff, thenuploading the episode, writing
all the copy for the episode andthen keeping us on our schedule
for however long the season isgoing to be Talent booking,
finding talent, keeping up withthem, getting them signed
releases, making sure they haveeverything they need for their
(22:38):
equipment and all of that stuff.
But then there are producerswho do everything which I'm just
like God bless you.
You know what I mean.
Like I always tell people, likewhen I'm up for a role or a gig
or whatever I'm like look, I'ma rough cut editor.
That is not my full ministry.
So I just want you to know thatupfront Cause if you're looking
(22:59):
for somebody who both edits andproduces and you trying to get
them for the price of one,you're not going to get that
with me and even if you, andeven if you could do it, you
know what.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
You know what their budget is.
If their budget is saying youneed to produce and don't do
anything technical, then that'swhat you do yeah, but if the, if
the, if you know the amount ofwhat you'll be doing, if you're
going to be compensated for itright, you know and you have the
skill set.
You know as well as I know thatthey're going to hire one
(23:30):
person to do three differentpeople roles.
They'll do it if you let them.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
So you got to draw that line in the sand definitely
yeah, and I and another pointto all of that, including, like
you know, how undervalued audioprofessionals are.
What we started to see in, likeI would say, like 20.
You know how undervalued audioprofessionals are.
What we started to see in, likeI would say, like you know,
like 2019, because that's when Icame in, so that's when I
really started to see.
It might've started earlierthan that, but like 2019, 2020,
(23:57):
the top of 2021, it was all ofthese Hollywood executives
coming in and running audioproduction divisions or audio
houses, podcast divisions andeverything, and they're running
it like it's Hollywood.
And I'm like that's not what youknow.
What I mean.
Like making podcasts.
It's not the same thing, and Idon't understand all the ins and
(24:19):
outs of all the business andyou know, whatever.
But I do believe that some ofthat is part of the reason why
it's so hunger games right nowin podcasting, you know, because
all these people came in,they're throwing millions and
billions of dollars and theydon't know what they're doing
with it right you know they'reputting it in the wrong places.
They're not paying the peoplewho are doing the most of the
(24:42):
work.
They're're not paying themfairly, you know.
So yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So when you started working for Essence, um, and I
always like to kind of relatethings back to my experience and
see if, if you know, it's, uh,consistent across the board Like
when I started getting my firstlike okay, like this is my
first, like this is this is realstuff, like this is like top
tier production stuff and you,you have the skillset.
(25:09):
But then you quickly realize,like there's a moment where
you're like I can do it, but I'mnot as good as I thought I was,
think you're good.
And there's a moment where it'slike, okay, once you, once you
get surrounded by other peoplewho are your love, he was okay,
I'm, I belong in the room, butI'm not to that level.
So, like when you start workingfor essence, whereas there and
(25:29):
it even might not be the um, theskill set, it's just like the
pace at which things go, like,yeah, I can, you know I can edit
, but if they need me to bangout of something in a amount of
time and I'm like, oh man, I canedit, but I can't edit that
fast, so, um, I'm going to haveto pull an all-nighter to get it
done and they might not knowthat, like you kind of try to
have to get up to par with thespeed and the efficiency of how
(25:51):
they do things on that level.
So is that something youexperienced?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, I would say so.
The blessing of working atEssence was and it's so funny
because, like it was one of thethings that I always wanted to
do I wanted to be a writer forthe actual magazine and it ended
up that I became a producer fortheir short-lived network.
But working there, because ofthe team that I worked with, we
(26:15):
were all learning in real time.
Our executive producer, tiffany.
She had produced podcasts andstuff, but, if I'm not mistaken,
I don't think that she had everlike helmed an entire network.
So we it was.
It was four shows that werealready built and then I came on
(26:37):
to help build the fifth show,which was one for like Gen Z or
whatever the case is, and wewere all learning at like
lightning speed.
So it would be like from thetime I hit the door, say, I got
there at 10 o'clock, 1030, wewere working nonstop.
Sometimes we truly did forgetto eat because we were working
nonstop.
We had to record this, we hadto go set up for that.
We're making sure thenewsletter went out right
(26:58):
Because we were doing some ofthe digital content.
I had to hurry up and write anarticle to go with this that
could go on the dot com andthere was a lot of grace for
like mistakes, and I definitelydid feel like, oh, wow, there's
so much I need to learn.
But there wasn't a whole lot oftime to like sit in it, because
as quickly as I was thinkinglike, oh my God, there's so much
I need to learn, there wassomething else I had to do in
(27:20):
order to learn the thing I hadto do in order to learn the
thing.
So it was well, I was therefrom July 28, 2019 to, I think,
october 2020 is when we all gotfurloughed, you know, after like
the pandemic hit and stuff likethat.
And yeah, there were.
I mean, one of the main thingsthat I realized that I did not
(27:41):
know how to do until I got thereand I learned was I was not
good at juggling multiple thingsat once and dividing up my time
, and I'm like, if I'm going tobe a good producer, I have got
to figure this out.
And that was the perfect placeto learn it, because I was
working with people who handledme gently.
They weren't dictators, youknow what I mean, and I'm still
(28:05):
friends with those people tothis day.
But yeah, yeah, I've, I feltthat, but I didn't have time to
like sit in it, you know okay,so you had, you had you had that
experience with essence.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
so, like during like um, because you made a couple
references to like, yeah, I workwith this person and now here
and I work, now you know I workwith that person and they're now
over there, like, what is whatdid that experience at Essence
teach you about?
Like, like, building andmaintaining connections?
Can you just speak a little bitabout, you know, building
(28:38):
connections?
Speaker 1 (28:39):
No, I'm not burning bridges with people and staying
in contact with people and just,kind of like, continue to
nurture those relationships andstay connected with people, as,
as y'all you know, go y'allseparate ways yeah, like, like I
said, essence was like reallylike a blessing for me, because
there was a whole lot of drama,um, that was all like in the
(29:01):
news and stuff, like in 2020 andeven like fairly recently or
whatever.
For the most part, I didn'texperience any of that, because
the team that I worked with wasso tight knit, and so I think
one of the things that I learnedabout like building
relationships was like, let itbe genuine, working on that team
at Essence was the first time Ifelt like man.
(29:23):
Wherever my executive producergoes, I'm going to go with her
because I trust her that much.
If she's working until eighto'clock, I'm going to work till
eight o'clock because she wasjust that diligent and, like I
don't know, when you meet reallygenuine, good-hearted people
who are about their business, itmakes you want to be that as
(29:45):
well.
It adds fuel to the fire thatyou might already have, and so
that's how I felt about all ofthe people.
I want to say what is it?
Four or five of us, like six ofus, still keep in contact to
this day, and if it wasn't agenuine relationship, it would
have fallen off, because I'vehad trouble with the whole idea
(30:06):
of networking and I think thatit's evolved a lot over time,
because when I was younger andjust coming out of college and
stuff, it was very much likehere's my business card, we
should get lunch sometime, andI'm like this does not feel
natural to me.
This is weird, but one thing Ican say about networking and
building relationships andmaintaining them is to develop a
(30:26):
natural curiosity about otherpeople.
Like the more that I'm curiousabout other people and what
they're doing and I get my mindoff of what I need and what I
want and what I want and what Iwant, I can see possibilities
and I can learn from people andI can learn like oh well, I
never thought about this.
Or hey, you need somebody to doX, y, z.
(30:47):
Even if I can't do it, I knowsomebody who can.
You know what I mean?
Like connecting each other.
I feel like maintainingrelationships is not just about
like keeping somebody close sothat you could potentially get
something from them at somepoint.
It's like how can I help?
Or what's up with you, what'sbeen going on?
What are you into these days?
I'm genuinely interested in youas a person and it doesn't mean
(31:11):
you talk every day, all thetime.
Some people I talk to every fewmonths.
But you know that thatconnection is solid and it's
there.
And then I'll be honest withyou.
There are some people that I'veworked with where it was so
traumatic for me that I didn'tmistreat them in any way.
But I don't care if I'll neverhear from them again.
You know what I mean.
I've actively decided not tokeep that door open.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I think that's the part of I hate the term
networking because, like yousaid, it gives me the mind of
here's my card and have yourpeople call my people.
You know what I'm saying.
Type of stuff very comes offvery like contrived and all that
type of stuff.
Um, but people always talkingabout it in the sense of
obviously you want to bepositive, so you would want to
(31:55):
think that all the connectionsyou make are going to be
positive.
The reality of sometimes youmeet people and you're like if I
would have that connectionwould have never happened, I
would have been good.
Um, so that happens too.
Like everybody's not going tobecome part of your tribe.
Everybody, you know everybodydoesn't become like a close
colleague or friend or somebodyyou can really really rely on,
(32:19):
like there are different levelswithin that as well.
So, moving on from essence, um,I think this is probably what
the connection thing comes intoplay too.
So correct me if I'm wrong.
Like when you kind of startdoing like your own thing.
If that is correct, can youtouch on that and like what that
process was like?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, so October 2020,.
It's so funny because I was inChicago visiting my partner at
the time and I woke up and I waslike, all right, let me get
myself together and go like login right for work, because I
still was going to, you know,work and I was like, why is my
password not working?
(32:58):
Like nothing was working.
And so I went on Slack and Imessaged my executive producer
and I was like, hey, my login isnot working.
But I am like you know, I'mawake, I'm here, I'm trying to
do all things.
She was like none of our noneof our stuff is working.
We're about to have a meetingand basically the meeting was
like oh, y'all been furloughed.
(33:21):
It was, if I'm honest, like look, essence has been an
institution in Black householdssince forever, but I just felt
like man, the way that theyhandled that and like layoffs
and firings and stuff.
I was just like bro, I'm takingnotes just in case I'm ever at
the helm of the business,because I do not want to treat
people like this.
Like you know what I mean, likeoof, it was bad, but I gotta be
(33:50):
honest with you.
There was a part of me that wasrelieved, because it was like
the pandemic took a lot out ofall of us and I don't know that
we all like a lot of like, we'restill like reeling from it a
little bit, but we got to keepgoing.
You know what I mean.
So this was October 2020.
And I was just like okay, youknow, we're going to be able to
collect unemployment, all that.
Whatever, I'll be okay, I'llgive myself like a month or two
to just like relax, come downoff of all the you know cause,
(34:11):
working from home and doing thevolume of work that we were
doing at Essence, that was a lotLike I was chained to my desk,
you know, at home, and so I tooksome months to just not do
anything.
And then, in December, I signedup for Air Media.
Signed up for Air Media becauseI was like, all right, let me
(34:32):
figure out what it looks like tobe an independent producer and
put myself out there.
So I signed up for Air Mediasometime in December.
I want to say maybe like thesecond to last week of December.
In December, I want to saymaybe like the second to last
week of December, the first weekof January I get an email from
(34:53):
a man named Dossie McCraw whowas an executive producer, or is
an executive producer on EbonyK Williams' show, which had
literally just started, I think,in like November of 2020.
He found me through Air Media.
So it was literally like acouple of weeks.
I was like bro, god is crazy,this is good, hit me up.
I got to be honest, I was verytimid, but everything about the
process was fair, it wasequitable.
(35:16):
You know what I mean.
I didn't have to fight for theright rate and all these
different things and I was likeall right, this white guy is all
right.
You know what I mean?
Like okay, cool, and I metEbony and that was 2021.
And I've been working on hershow ever since.
After that, I volunteered on acouple of shows and I worked on
(35:37):
some other shows, got paid forit and everything.
Great experience.
But it was like everythinghappened progressively.
You know what I mean.
But Ebony's show was one of theones that I said I'll continue
to work on and I told her.
I said I'll continue to produceyour show as long as you want
me to produce your show and aslong as you're doing a show,
(35:58):
because I had never worked onsomething before where Because
your family.
Sometimes they'd be like, ohyeah, they keep telling people
I'm on the radio and I was likey'all got to stop telling people
that because that's not what Ido.
And then in black households,anytime you ever do anything
with a celebrity, they'll sayyou need to work with that Tyler
(36:21):
Perry.
It's so funny.
But I said I would work onEbony's show for as long as she
wanted to have a show, because Ihadn't seen anybody do a legal
podcast.
That was so down to earth andmade you want to listen and
(36:41):
learn more about how all thesedifferent headlines, the things
that she was pulling out of them, it's like yo, this really
could affect my everyday life.
Let me tune in.
My family was listening to it.
My sister and my brother bingedthe show and I was like I think
working on her show is whatmade me realize you have to
decide what kind of produceryou're going to be, because I
feel like for a lot of usthere's like a fork in the road
(37:05):
sometimes where it's like areyou going to be the kind of
producer where you'll just doanything and most of it's
probably going to be all thesalacious stuff, or are you
going to have like standards foryourself?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Let me jump in real quick because I wanted to touch
on that as well.
I think there's kind of a giftand a curse.
I'm like this is what I had inmind when I wanted to work in
the industry.
Like I'm being paid fairly,it's real, it's not corny, it's
not something I wouldn't listento if I wasn't working on it.
Like I don't want to work onsomething.
(37:36):
Then I tell people about it, golisten to it and I know, like
this, they'll be lucky to getthrough an episode.
So when you work on stuff likethat, or you work with a team
like that and get introduced to,it's like when you are
presented other things, you youjust want to realize how much
you want to just say no to allthe other stuff.
But it's like I gotta find abalance between doing that and I
(37:57):
want to actually get work,consistent work, and and
continue to make a living, likeyou said.
Like there's that fork in theroad like do you, do you chase
the bag?
Do you, you know, only work onthings that are interesting and
exciting to you and everythingin between, and I've kind of
I've kind of dealt with that too.
(38:18):
To transition to to the actualquestion like what do you do you
look for, like you know, onceyou go freelance and you're
doing your own thing, what arethe things that you prioritize?
So speak on that, if you will.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah, I mean nowadays and this is the other part of
it too, right, and I'm sure youwould agree like, being an
independent producer is veryfeast or famine, right?
You have years where you'redoing real good, right, you
don't have to worry aboutnothing, bop, bop, bop.
Then you have times, years ormonths or whatever, where it's
like, okay, rent is going to bedue, you know.
(38:55):
And so there is the temptationto be like man, let me just take
this gig, so I don't have to.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
And this gets into like I don'tknow, like the woo-woo of it
all.
But I really do feel like, themore that I look at it from an
abundance mindset of like I'msaying no to this so that all
the other things that areactually for me can find me and
I could find them.
(39:15):
The more that I do that, themore the opportunities start to
align for me.
So, like last year, I was flownout to LA to work on a show,
worked on the first episode, andI think from the time I mean
even before I got out there, Ihad the worst feeling about it.
It just wasn't.
It wasn't for me, man, and Iwas like I can't fake the funk
(39:37):
for this.
And so I had a conversationwith the producers and I was
like and the producers were coolpeople Don't get me wrong but I
was like this show, man, it'snot for me, it's not for me,
it's not for me.
And I remember on the call Isaid I can't do this show
anymore.
I was like so I'm fine with youpaying me for the, because I
(39:57):
think I worked out for fourepisodes, I had done scripts or
something like that.
I said because I produced thefirst two episodes.
I said, cool, you can keep myname on it and everything.
I was like, but take my nameoff of it.
I didn't promote it nowhere, Ididn't tell nobody I was working
on it.
It was just like no, this isnot aligned, and that's what
(40:20):
I'll say.
It's not about being abovesomething, or oh, this is not
good enough for me, it was notaligned for me, and I was like I
cannot keep taking gigs whereit's not aligned and I'm
miserable, because then it'slike bro, I need time to recover
from this now, because I didn'tstress myself out working on
something that wasn't for me,and so I really look at who's
(40:42):
the person.
That is the talent that I'mgoing to be working with from
day to day.
Are they collaborative?
Do they show up on time?
Do they treat people well?
Do they have something to say,or are they just getting behind
a mic and just talking a bunchof crap that I don't care to
hear?
If what is happening on thisshow is giving people true
(41:04):
insight into something, orteaching us something, or
allowing us to feel better thanwe did before we listened to it,
I can be on board with that,and those are some of the things
that I kind of look for.
But if it's all this finaglingand trying to pay me the least
amount as possible and peopleare constantly coming in and
(41:25):
then leaving the project andlike it's a revolving door.
Those are all red flags.
Disorganization behind thescenes all red flags.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
So we're rounding third, butit's a couple, a couple more
points that I do want to touchon.
So the work that we do, likewe've already mentioned, it's a
lot of work, whether you love itor not.
Obviously, when you don't loveit, it seems like more work.
So what is what is your likeroutine?
Like you need to at some point.
(41:53):
You need to be able to to, todo it in a healthy, sustainable
way.
You need to be able to stepaway and say I'm not doing no
more work today, or before youstart working, you may have like
a routine or a process thatjust kind of grounds you and
allows you to do the best workyou can do, and then, once it's
(42:13):
done, whether you have like anunwinding process or whatever
that looks like for you.
So what for you like what?
What does that encompass?
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah.
So I'll be honest, I'm figuringout what my routine looks like
nowadays Because one of myprevious contracts because it
was a full-time contract I wasable to structure things better
because that was my main focusand the only other thing I was
working on was Ebony's show, andthen that show was on a hiatus
for a long time.
So all I had was the full-timecontract full-time contract.
(42:44):
Now it's.
I'm working on two shows right.
Then I have audio booknarration.
I'm also working a retail job.
You know what I mean.
So it's like all thesedifferent things happening, and
so I'm in the process of liketweaking things to like really
figure out what works.
The good thing is that the twoshows that I work on, even
(43:06):
though they both release on thesame day, the way that I go
about the recordings and allthat is totally different and
those are on different days.
So I know my Mondays andTuesdays are for the one show
and then for the most part it'slike Wednesday, thursday, friday
.
Sometimes it's just Wednesdayand Thursday it's for the other
(43:26):
show.
I am trying to figure out what'sthe sweet spot in terms of when
I start working.
Each day I feel like 9 o'clock,9.30 is a good sweet spot.
But sometimes I find myselfstarting to work earlier than
that because I'm like you knowhow you have anxiety and you're
like I just want to get some ofthis stuff done, so my brain
isn't consumed with it.
So sometimes I'm up as early asseven in the morning.
(43:49):
But some of the things I do tosort of like ground myself is
like I'm a tea drinker, so Ilike to have tea in the morning
Every now and then I meditate,but for the most part it's like
I'm journaling, whether I'mjournaling my prayers out or
just journaling like aboutwhat's going on with me so I can
get that out.
I will either read or listen tothe Bible or a book and those,
(44:10):
and then also I'm like tendingto all my 31 plants.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah, I saw that in your bio.
I'm glad you mentioned thatwe're not going to spend too
much time but for thoselistening, you will not be able
to see the video of thisinterview, but I can see her and
she has like a whole family ofplants behind her, so that
checks out.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yeah, so that's the way that I kind of like I'm
tweaking it, but that's sort ofwhat my routine looks like right
now.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
OK, thank you for sharing that.
In answering that question, youmentioned that the voiceover
and the narration work.
Obviously, you know we followeach other on social media, so I
saw that you were doing thatand when I actually reached out
to you in regards to thisinterview, you said you know you
(44:58):
had an inclination to want tostep out more of the forefront
and come from behind the scenes.
Obviously, this interview isshining more of a light on you
directly, but I feel like the VOnarration work.
They may have been like yourfirst foray into making a
transition, so like how did thatcome about?
And like how are you enjoyingthat process?
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, it came about because what was it like a
couple years ago I was workingon a project was like a couple
years ago I was working on aproject and I had to read an
essay for it.
It was we were putting togethera podcast and we were doing
like a chemistry read betweenthe hosts and they had to listen
to a very short essay and thenrespond to it.
So I read the essay in dramaticform for them and the engineer
(45:47):
I was working with, who's like25 years in radio, he does
voiceover and stuff.
He was like Ash, you could docommercials, you could do
audiobooks, blah, blah, blah.
And I was like you think so?
And he said yeah, and then abunch of other people had said
it to me over the years and Ihad forgotten that.
I said I wanted to get intovoice work back in like 2017.
(46:07):
But he helped me put together aWeo demo reel and then a friend
of mine asked me to do somevoiceover for his YouTube
channel.
So that was like my first likereal, you know work in that area
.
And then last year I recorded myfirst audio book for Penguin,
random House, which was verycool because the book got chosen
(46:30):
for Reese Witherspoon's bookclub pick, which was so cool,
and I've just been auditioning,and all of that ever since I
starred in two fiction podcasts.
Last year I had a small role inanother fiction podcast that
just won Tribeca's audioselections, which was super cool
.
So it all kind of like, justyou know, happens sequentially.
(46:50):
It's not it's not happeningsteadily, but it's happening
sequentially and I like it.
I like it a lot because I getto perform, which is something
that I feel like I always wantedto do since I was a kid.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Yeah, I was going to say that sounds like it's full
circle from when you were a kidand you, you know, you kind of,
you kind of share with that,that with us earlier in the
episode.
All right, last couple things.
So you mentioned air mediapreviously, which is the
association of independent radioand audio creators, something,
something similar to that.
(47:21):
It's a group I'm also a part of.
What other like groups orcommunities, are you a part of
that you found helpful?
As far as presenting newopportunities, like I mentioned
also earlier, continue to evolveyour skill set, whether it's
classes or seminars, whetherin-person or virtual, or just
(47:43):
connecting with other people inthe industry as well, connecting
with other people in theindustry as well, because this,
this audio, and this may be thecase for media in general, but
especially in audio if you'renot, like, mentally strong, if
you can't sustain, like, thewaves and the ups and downs and
the, you know, seasons ofcertainty and it seems like even
more seasons of uncertainty,you could go crazy.
(48:05):
If you, if you don't have a,like a support system whether
it's, like we mentioned, thegroup chat, people who are super
, super close, or a more broadavenue to feel supported and all
those type of things.
What else are you a part ofoutside of Air Media?
Speaker 1 (48:23):
So I'm a part of a group called the Freelancers Hub
.
It's not solely towards audioprofessionals, but it's for
anybody who's a creative,independent creative and they
have all sorts of really coolthings in Brooklyn, in different
parts of the city sometimes too, where they have like legal
(48:43):
clinics, so you could come withyour questions that you have
around forming your LLC orgetting paid because somebody
didn't stiff you all thesedifferent things.
You can go get your headshotsdone for free, you can use any
of their workstations for somehours per day for free, or you
(49:05):
could pay whatever.
They have all sorts of reallycool events and workshops and
stuff.
So that's another thing thatI'm a part of.
But honestly, I feel like thoseare the only two groups.
Air Media and Freelancers Hubare the only two groups I'm a
part of.
Everything else really is thegroup chats that I'm in.
I'm in a group chat of allBlack women who are in audio in
(49:26):
some way shape or form, whetherthey're on the admin side or
production side.
Then I have my group chat ofall the women who I work with at
Essence and we get togetherevery now and then and, yeah,
I'm just kind of like keeping intouch with different people
through LinkedIn sometimes, andthen also through Instagram as
well.
So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
So yeah, thank you for sharing without.
Just a bit of advice for peoplelistening, like, yeah, just
when I first got my start, I wasin like facebook groups that's.
I think that's how I got likemy first paying gig.
Um, just just, you know,obviously there are tons of
platforms and like social mediaapps and you know all these
different ways for you to youknow, get information and learn,
(50:07):
learn the ins and outs of theindustry, or maybe not specific
to audio, like you said, justfor people who are creatives or
independent producers, all thosetypes of things.
So I encourage you all.
I kind of explored LinkedIngroups, but I haven't really
dove deep into it, but I thinkthat may be something for people
(50:28):
to explore as well.
So just always seek out thosethings that could potentially be
helpful, no matter if you'relike the in the beginning,
middle or, uh, further along inyour career.
So, to end on a lighter note, Igot a couple questions to ask.
This is a podcast specific tothe, the audio medium, so I just
(50:48):
wanted to curious.
Uh, you mentioned that you youwent through your r&b music
phase.
I love r&b music, so thesedon't kind of be music centered
questions, but I'm curious toknow what your taste is, and I
have in mind, like what some ofyour responses would be, so I'm
curious to know if I'm like onthe mark or completely off.
So what is your favorite albumof all time, no matter what
(51:12):
genre?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
All right.
So because I was born in the80s and because I grew up in the
church, the Winans family wasvery big in my house BB and CC
Winans.
Their Heaven album was one ofthe best things that ever
happened to gospel music, Ithink because it was one of
those albums that crossed overin a dope-ass way I don't know
(51:37):
if I can say that about gospelmusic but in such a great way.
Whitney Houston was singingbackup.
She just left her own tour tocome and sing backup for her
friends because she just wantedto be on tour with her friends
and it was some of the bestmusic.
I feel like that came out ofthe late 80s.
So I would say BB and CeCeWinans' Heaven album.
I know all the songs.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
I'm going to give it a listen.
I'm going to give it a listen.
All right, moving right along.
Who is your favorite musicproducer?
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Ooh, my favorite music producer is probably Jimmy
Jam and Terry Lewis.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
They're definitely top five all the time.
All right, last two.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Favorite TV theme song.
It's probably going to bemoving on up the Jeffersons.
That's one of my favorite TVshows.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
I love George Jefferson so much.
It's catchy and if you happento catch an episode and catch
that theme, you'll catchyourself in the grocery store
singing it.
Word.
So yeah, that's definitelyiconic.
And the last is favorite filmscore.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Favorite film score.
It's going to be wait, you saidscore, not soundtrack, because
I'm, so, I'm like because I'm,if I'm gonna say score, if we're
gonna say score, then it wouldbe the prince of egypt probably
prince of egypt.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Okay, what about soundtrack waiting to exhale?
I think that's the best oneever.
So.
I was curious and you and I andI feel like you probably have
read the isn't, it, wasn't it abook first?
Speaker 1 (53:12):
it was a book first, but I was, I was young, I was, I
think I was only like 12, um,so I didn't.
I didn't read the book becauseI was reading, like you know,
books for my age group at thetime.
But the soundtrack I meanBabyface is a freaking,
phenomenal songwriter and just apersuader to get people on the
album because, if I'm notmistaken, chaka khan didn't want
(53:33):
to do it and he got her onthere yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
I think that's not to go too deep, but I think that's
one of the the like the bestproducers, songwriters, or
combination of the two.
Like you can get people toconvince people, you have to be,
you have to sell it to them.
Like you know, they might, theymay want to work with you, like
you might want to.
You might write a song that'slike obviously a smash, and
(53:57):
they're like yeah, I want to dothat one.
Or they can be like I want todo it.
And then you're like but I havethis other song that I think
you should do too, and they'relike I don't know if I'm.
You know well, you can't get tosmash if you don't do this one
too.
So you got to be a masterpersuader.
But Babyface, you know,basically everybody you
mentioned within this list areall legends.
(54:20):
So I'm definitely in agreeancethere, for sure.
All right, I think we have.
I think we're there.
We hit on a lot of, a lot ofgreat topics.
You went through a lot ofthings.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
Yeah, man.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
So I appreciate you sharing all that and giving all
that insight, but, before we go,just share with the people
where they can find you onlineon the socials, all that type of
good stuff, and if they wouldlike to connect with you, how
can they do so?
Speaker 1 (54:55):
For sure.
So my website is ashleyjhcom,so that's A-S-H-L-E-Y-J-Hcom.
You can find me on LinkedInAshley J Hobbs.
Let's see what else.
Instagram Ashley J Hobbs.
I'm on TikTok too, but it'sjust for me to watch things.
I don't really post on there,but, yeah, I post about my shows
(55:16):
.
I'm doing a little series nowon Instagram about being a
producer and stuff like that.
So, yeah, you can check me outthere sharing.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Uh, super, super grateful that you decided to hop
on.
Like I said, this is the firstofficial episode, so I'm kind of
at a loss for words like thisis this, is this is really, it's
officially a thing now.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
This is dope.
It's a great conversation and Ilike the back and forth because
you know sometimes people justask the question and then be
like, okay, let's move on to thenext one.
But I love the conversationalaspect of this.
So, yeah, congrats, becausethis is going to be awesome.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Yeah, I think this is a good start.
Yeah, thank you for joining andthank you everyone for
listening.
Thank you for joining us ontoday's episode.
Please don't forget tosubscribe to the show and leave
us a review.
If you'd like to work with meor connect, please go to
(56:13):
soundbysitcom and schedule acall there.
You can also check out the fulllist of productions I've worked
on.
If you'd like to connect onsocial media, my handle is
soundbysitcom on Twitter andInstagram and I'm Sidney Evans
on LinkedIn.
Don't forget to follow Beyondthe Threshold on Instagram as
well.
I'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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