January 7, 2025 • 54 mins
Text Beyond the Threshold w/ your thoughts or questions!
In this episode of Beyond the Threshold, host Sidney Evans is joined by John Asante, a Ghanaian American, award-winning independent audio producer, showrunner, and consultant based in Los Angeles.
John has produced and developed over 30 podcasts for various outlets, including HBO, Netflix, Hartbeat, Audible and Imagine Entertainment and worked for companies such as Street Studios, Neon Hum Media, and Stitcher.
Also, John independently hosted and produced Play It Back, a podcast telling stories of how music lovers discovered the songs that have changed their lives.
In this episode they discuss:
- His time at WRAS and Sirius XM that shaped his skills and passion for audio.
- How he adapted his public radio skills to the podcasting landscape.
- Navigating the freelance landscape as a minority in the audio industry.
- Setting rates and the importance of networking.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Asante (00:01):
A showrunner on the basis is the person making sure
on the daily and weekly levelthat everybody knows what
they're doing and setting thecourse of action for a podcast
from start to finish, from likethe idea and the development,
all the way to the launch.
Sidney Evans (00:20):
Tune in as we give flowers to Black men and women
making waves in the audioindustry.
I'm your host, sidney Evans,and this is Beyond the Threshold
.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcometo Beyond Threshold.
(00:45):
I'm your host, sidney Evans, anaward-winning audio editor,
mixer and producer.
For those of you who don't know, on this show I interview Black
men and women working in theaudio industry to highlight the
lessons and experiences it takesto achieve success in the field
.
We got another great episode instore for today, as well as
(01:06):
another amazing guest.
And preparing for this interviewand doing research for this
guest, obviously LinkedIn kindof creates the outline for their
career and kind of get a feelfor the person.
So as I was doing that, I foundmyself looking at the
recommendations.
It was nothing but positivethings, kind words and that's
(01:27):
the vibe I kind of got from himand just communicating with him
to get on and record thisepisode.
So to give you a little bit onhis background he's a
Ghanaian-American andaward-winning independent audio
producer, showrunner andconsultant based in Los Angeles.
He has over 15 years in theaudio world which have been
(01:48):
devoted to crafting stories thatshine a light on Black and
Brown people, as well as folksfrom marginalized communities.
He has produced and developedover 30 podcasts for various
outlets, including HBO, netflix,heartbeat, audible and Imagine
Entertainment.
He also independently hostedand produced Play it Back, a
podcast telling stories of howmusic lovers discovered the
(02:10):
songs that have changed theirlives, and, before forming his
own production company, he was ashowrunner on various podcasts
for Pineapple Street Studios,neon Home Media and Stitcher.
So, without further ado, I'dlike to introduce today's guest,
john Asante.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks, man, thanks for havingme.
(02:31):
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
Outside of the skills andability, I generally like to
have people on who are talentedbut also good people, and that
tends to reflect in the work andthe relationships that you
build professionally and throughyour personal life as well.
So, first and foremost, justkind of want to get a little bit
(02:53):
of background on you in generalas a person and then we can get
into like your inspiration andinfluences that made you want to
get into the audio world.
What kind of was the motivationfor you to take in this career
path?
John Asante (03:08):
Yeah, sure.
So, as you said, I'm GhanianAmerican, whole famous from
Ghana.
I'm first generation.
It was interesting from thebeginning because nobody in my
family is in really a creativespace until, like this current
generation, only a couple of mycousins and stuff.
So going the audio route assomething in entertainment was
not something that I was exposedto.
(03:30):
I grew up between New Jersey andGeorgia, but Atlanta's home,
and I think what really got meinto pursuing a career in audio
or some form of entertainmentwas watching a ton of sports
that are growing up.
Like you, I was into sports,played baseball, basketball,
soccer, so on and so forth, abunch of other stuff and Stuart
Scott rest in peace was one ofmy huge inspirations from his
(03:54):
catchphrases like boo yeah, andall of his energy and the way he
reported these stories was soamazing that when I was 15, 16
in high school, I was like Iwant to do that.
So I started off writing for myhigh school's newspaper, went
to college at Georgia StateUniversity, knew right away I
wanted to do journalism and wentin thinking I was going to be a
(04:16):
TV reporter and work my way upto, hopefully, cnn or ESPN one
day, and along the way I wrotefor my school's newspaper, did
some reporting for our TVstation, but our TV station shut
down so a lot of us who weredoing reporting went over to the
radio station WRAS shout out to88.5, album 88, because it was
(04:38):
like really well respected.
The frequency of the stationwent all over Atlanta and I came
in just like reporting the newsat the top of the hour a couple
of days a week.
Then I saw the DJs and I waslike I can do that.
They don't really have like thebest speaking voices.
I had always been like reallybig on like the performance of
audio and radio and after I sawhim do it a bit I was like I I
(05:02):
knew that this is something Icould do.
I had a passion for music a bitof playing, but mostly going to
shows, collecting CDs, justgetting my hands on anything I
could, and I just loved therange of music they were playing
.
It was all like indie,underground stuff.
We didn't play anythingmainstream, although it was one
of the first stations to reallyput outcasts on the map before
they went huge.
So I became a DJ um doing kindof like regular rotation during
(05:28):
the week and then I became um aco-host of a blues show with my
friend uh shout out to KyleStapleton who, um, encouraged me
to do it with him, even thoughI didn't know a ton about the
blues at the time.
And that rolled into also medoing more um on air work with
the news station or the newsside of the station, and I ended
up becoming the news directorby my senior year and hosting
(05:51):
what would have been a podcastat the time this was like 2008.
So podcasting wasn't nearly asbig of a thing, more so a hobby,
and I did this public affairsshow.
I was kind of like interviewingwhoever famous came through the
station or different professorsand stuff, and it was just
really fun.
I loved doing it and it wasgreat.
(06:13):
I interviewed comedians, actors, writers.
It was just really, reallygreat to have that access.
And I had an internship in DC atSirius XM summer before my
senior year and that's whatreally motivated me to be like,
oh, I want to do this.
I was a producer productionintern on the public radio
(06:36):
channel of Sirius this is beforethey merged with XM was like
the same summer and I basicallygot to work on a show called the
Bob Edwards Show, which waskind of like fresh air, but done
by a different guy who used tohost Morning Edition but then
had left to go to Sirius whenSirius was first getting out
really big deals.
And I got to meet all thosepeople who were former NPR
(06:57):
producers and at the time Ibarely listened to NPR, I barely
knew about it.
I did not grow up in a house ofpublic radio.
It was either radio or CNN orsome other news, local news and
I started to learn about how tocreate stories without the
visuals, with audio, and it wasamazing.
I was like this is challengingbut this is really fun.
I got to pitch a few differentpeople to interview and a few
(07:19):
different topics to cover and Igot to produce three full
interviews on my own, like 30,40 minute long interviews during
that internship and I was likethis is more than I've done in
any of my classes that were moreso video production based.
And that was the light bulbthat went off.
I was like I came back as anews director hosting that show,
being like, okay, this is whatwe're going to do.
(07:40):
I'm like my motivation was togo back to DC after I graduated
during the worst economy atleast back then um, and become a
um, a public radio producer,and so, yeah, I think I kind of
shelved the like the TV dream ofsorts, because I realized how
much um, how much intimacy therewas in audio and how much I
(08:03):
could do.
And, yeah, that was mymotivation.
Summer, after I graduated fromcollege, I did not have a job
lined up, at least a full-timejob.
I had like a temp job at myschool, working in like the what
do we call it?
The commencement office, likeplanning the graduation
ceremonies.
But I was like I'm going backto DC, somehow, somehow got a
last minute internship at NPR,working on Weekend, all Things
(08:24):
Considered, and from there I gotto learn the tricks of the
trade for public radio.
I got to work on some internprojects, got to just chat up
anybody I could, the likes ofAri Shapiro and Michelle Martin
folks that are still there todayand I was like this is it?
I think I want to do it andthat's what led me in, because
(08:45):
my, my action, my career startedin public radio and I got my
first job at the end of 2009.
And that's kind of what chartedthe course.
But I will pause it here.
Sidney Evans (08:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's a.
That's actually a good placefor me to jump in Cause.
I just wanted to say, like umand me pursuing media, like I
went to um, to FayettevilleState University, and was in a
mass communications departmentand a lot of like outside of
these, like obviously GeorgiaState is bigger and Fayetteville
State's a smaller HBCU in NorthCarolina, but a lot of the
(09:17):
times, like our education andwhat we're exposed to there,
it's like very broad and youkind of have an idea of what you
want to do but you may notnecessarily get to do it within
the context of going to school.
Like for me, sports was a was abig thing for me.
Like I originally majored inmass comm because I wanted to be
(09:38):
like a broadcaster sportsbroadcaster and I I did all
these other things in um duringmy time there and learned and to
to kind of tie it all in.
You know, a lot of times westart off wanting to do things
and then you get exposed tosomething and it kind of takes
you down a whole path.
Like I don't think there's toomany young, uh, you know, uh,
black kids growing up saying,well, I want to do public radio.
(10:00):
Like I don't think that's athing.
You could end up doing it,obviously, and take a liking to
it, but I don't think you gointo it with that being the goal
.
But as far as your experiencein public radio, how long did
you work in public radio?
John Asante (10:16):
Total of seven years, five at NPR from 2009 to
2014.
And then I left for a bit, thencame back at WNYC and lived in
New York for about from 2016 to2017.
Sidney Evans (10:31):
Cool.
So how did you?
I guess a question would belike what were some things that
you learned?
That kind of you, looking backon it, now realized like okay,
these are really foundationalskills and it's something that
kind of I was able to carry withme throughout the course of
your entire career.
And obviously we'll get intothe things that you did
afterwards.
(10:51):
But I'm just curious about whatwere those foundational things
that, looking back on, you sawthey're very important.
John Asante (10:57):
Yeah for sure.
Number one editing is key,whether it's your script writing
, you're editing audio, and I'llprobably use this
interchangeably.
At NPR they would say cuttingtape in a way you're thinking
about, also about as a listenerhow long should this last, how
long is it going to beinteresting?
How long can I keep alistener's attention?
(11:17):
What do I get out of this?
What are they getting out ofthis?
So that was huge for me.
Also, in terms of cutting tape,kind of finding the balance
between what should stay andwhat shouldn't stay, I think
it's evolved a bit.
Where it used to be cut out allthe errs and ums and cut out
all the breaths and stuff likethat, or a lot of them,
(12:10):
no-transcript.
I learned how to work ondeadlines because the first
couple jobs I had werenews-based and you it was like
you come in either knowing whatyou're going to work on for the
day which might air later andthis is when I worked on talk of
the nation and you would workon that or you get the
(12:32):
assignment that morning likewe'd be in the pitch meeting and
you're like, okay, cool.
And, mind you, when I wasworking on the show, the war in
Afghanistan was still going.
So a lot of what we werecovering was that, and so it'd
be like, okay, cool, we need tobook this someone who works in
policy to figure out what'sObama's next move in Afghanistan
, and I wasn't too well versedon it, so I had to like, within
(12:54):
a few hours, I had to likefigure out who to book, like
read through articles, be like,okay, this person has a good
take, we need to book thisperson.
Either I find them by like email, phone, they're like press
person.
What have you Get them into astudio, write a quick script for
our host, write questions, makesure all that went through
(13:16):
right.
And it was a live show, so Ialso had to screen calls.
So it was all about deadlinesand when I tell people that that
I had to do that in like fourhours, they're like that's crazy
, because with podcasting wehave so much time.
But I think having that senseof timeliness and just hitting
deadlines was super, superimportant.
I'd say those are like thebiggest things I took away from
(13:37):
public radio, for sure.
Yeah.
Sidney Evans (13:40):
I think that's kind of good to have to start
off with something that is thereI both they're both audio
mediums but starting fromsomething that is a little more
stressful and strenuous.
And then when you kind of makea transition to something else
that is a little more tame or isnot as fast paced, obviously
it's actually better than youknow the, the, then vice versa,
(14:02):
having to maybe start off inpodcasting and then, oh, I want
to do public radio and you'relike, oh, this is much more fast
paced, the speed at whichthings can move can be
overwhelming.
So, uh, that, and obviously Ithink another big thing you said
is you know, learn how to writequestions, scripts or whatever
like the writing aspect of it,because that is the foundation,
and I I harp on this almost inevery interview, but I do that
(14:26):
for a reason because it's veryimportant.
If you're an editor, or,obviously, if you produce,
you're expected to be able towrite more.
But if you want to continue tobuild your career and be more
valuable, the better you write,the more valuable you'll be.
That's something that Idefinitely learned.
So, to actually make thetransition.
So you said you worked inpublic radio for seven years,
(14:49):
correct?
Yeah, what prompted thetransition into podcasting?
Was it something that you were,that you did consciously, or
was it just the nature of howthings were evolving?
John Asante (15:00):
I think it was a bit of both, but more so the
latter, because when I was inpublic radio I can think the
first time NPR was starting toget into podcasts the only real
podcast they had was PlanetMoney and I was listening to it
all the time, but I didn't thinkof it as a podcast as we
usually do, where I'm onlylistening to it on the Apple
(15:22):
Podcasts app I guess back thenit was iTunes.
Spotify wasn't doing podcastsback then, so I saw that there
was a different way to tellstories.
For plenty of money they wouldair the stuff both on radio and
as a podcast, and that'ssomething that NPR used to do a
lot and I think still does tosome extent.
But it was more so theevolution of the medium.
(15:44):
I actually left public radio,coincidentally months before
Serial came out, and so Iswitched to doing this marketing
job, kind of felt like I wantedto do audio stuff on the side.
Audio projects want to evolvemy career.
I thought I wanted to go get anMBA in marketing.
I didn't and I think that was avery financially sound decision
(16:04):
.
But I saw how it was boomingbecause of Serial and how much
money was going into it, butmore so the craft and how it was
evolving and how all my publicradio skills directly translated
, especially from a show thatcame from folks from this
American Life, and also as I sawthe podcast or other radio
shows really start to focus onthe podcast side, I go, oh, I
(16:26):
can I cut tape, I write, I canbook guests, I have all this, I
can do it.
And for me it didn't feel aslimiting Like that's why I also
created Play it Back was that Iknew I was never going to pitch
it as like an NPR show, likeit's like super hard to get an
NPR show made or even just likea public radio show made on a
station unless you have the endsor you have a good pitch or you
(16:47):
know what have you.
But I was like I can do thismyself, like I have the agency
to do it myself, like we allknow it's a low barrier to entry
.
But then as I saw it evolveinto more of like a structured,
(17:09):
profitable, like medium that wasevolving and that this Wild
West scene was open, I was like,oh, I can capitalize on this,
like I know what I'm doing, Ican bring like really viable
skills to helping out a team andso, actually, when I went back
into public radio in 2016 at wyc, my first gig there was on a
podcast.
Before I went back to doing aradio show I worked on there
Goes the Neighborhood, which wasthis seven-part series.
I think it was seven parts.
Anyways, the first season thatI worked on was about the
(17:31):
gentrification of Brooklyn atthe time being, but just over
the course of decades, andhaving lived in Brooklyn in
Crown Heights, I was seeing ithappen firsthand and it was wild
.
It was a temp job that led intofinally, thankfully, a
full-time job.
But the fact that we didn't weweren't adherent to, like the
radio deadlines and we were ableto work on something at length
(17:53):
and it was a narrative podcastwhich I had been wanting to work
on.
After years of doing live, liveradio, lively tape, even worked
on a game show at NPR.
This was like a breath of freshair and I just realized, as a
producer, how many differentthings I could do and it wasn't
just about writing and cuttingtape.
I actually ended up kind ofbecoming this was kind of like
(18:14):
the beginning of me doing sortof a bit of show running.
I realized there were likeseveral different departments
not talking to each other, likethe newsroom wasn't talking to
the podcast unit and themarketing and social media folks
weren't talking to the editorsand producers and the hosts.
I was like let's bring it alltogether and it was beautiful.
We came up with and I think thepodcast did really well and it
(18:36):
led to two more seasons in twodifferent cities and I was like
this is what I want to do.
I want to really be in thepodcasting side of things
instead of just radio.
Sidney Evans (18:43):
Okay, I'm glad you you segue perfectly into one of
my questions.
I like to define things forpeople, because those who
obviously we're in the audioworld and this obviously is a
platform for those already inaudio too but for those who are
very early on or anything inbetween, from you know early on
(19:04):
to to season, like defining theterms, because obviously you go
from you know film, tv andpodcasting, there, uh, there are
different terms within eachmedium, but then there are also
similar terms, but they can bedifferent things contextual to
the medium.
So, um, before we get more intoyour show running experience,
(19:26):
can you actually define it forus and then, uh, go into the
experiences you have had withbeing a showrunner?
John Asante (19:34):
Sure, yeah.
So a showrunner on the basis isthe person making sure on the
daily and weekly level thateverybody knows what they're
doing and setting the course ofaction for a podcast from start
to finish, from like the ideaand the development, all the way
to the launch, and for anybodylooking for a job as a
(19:56):
showrunner if there are any outthere I'm not sure right now.
It's a really tough time in theindustry, as I'm sure you guys
know.
Sometimes that job is listed asmanaging producer, senior
managing producer.
It's one step below anexecutive producer, basically.
Also, even sometimes seniorproducers end up doing
showrunner-type jobs and theseterms get interchanged depending
(20:18):
on where you're working and allthat stuff.
Yeah, I see supervising producera lot too.
Supervising producer also, inmy opinion, falls under
showrunner.
But yeah, you're the onesetting the course of action,
making sure everybody knows whatthey're doing.
I think one of the biggestthings is keeping people on
track, on schedule, to geteverything done.
Um, are you hitting thedeadlines?
(20:38):
Do we have the guest book intime?
Are we getting our mixes donein time?
Um, does everything sound good?
Usually the sir runner is one ofthe last people in some of the
jobs I've had to listen to anddo like a final qc of the audio
before it goes out.
So you're kind of the last lineof defense, whereas, like, the
executive producers usuallycomes in and out like they're in
(20:58):
the beginning with like theideation and development and the
pre-production, and they mightpop out because they're doing a
lot more of the higher levelstuff.
You know, making sure that,like, sponsorships and ads are
getting set, maybe working witha partner if you're doing like
production with another companyto make sure everything's set,
figuring out how the show justgets out and makes money in some
ways Actually that is part ofit, I should say Securing other
(21:21):
deals for other shows in anetwork or a production company.
So, yeah, you as a showrunner,you're usually concentrating on
that one or two shows that go onand also putting out fires.
That's a part of it too.
It's not a sexy job, butsomeone's got to do it.
That's what I always say aboutshow running and the reason why
I've been using show runninginstead of these other producer
(21:43):
jobs.
A lot of these other jobssenior producer, supervising
producer, managing producer getinterchange.
And when I talked to someone,actually when I was networking
out here in LA several years ago, like before the pandemic, and
I told someone what I did atsome like podcasting event and I
think they worked in TV or filmand they said, oh, that sounds
a lot like show running and TV.
(22:04):
And I go, oh, I don't even knowwhat a show runner is.
But then they explained it andit is pretty similar.
I mean, they do definitelyother stuff, but it is a very
translatable term to help folksin other entertainment
industries understand what youdo.
Sidney Evans (22:18):
Okay.
So yeah, you actually mentionedI'm glad you well, first of all
, thank you for explaining that.
And then you also mentioned Iguess this is a good opportunity
to point out but you werenetworking with someone in LA
and I forgot to put this in mynotes but like the build a
relationships part of it, justkind of this evolution that you
go through with when you'redeveloping a skill, then you get
(22:40):
good at it, then you startfinding work and things like
that especially.
You know, speaking from myexperience, I got the reason I
love audio so much is a big partof it is the technical side of
things, is the technical side ofthings.
And then it evolved into morethe creative and that was kind
of like a I get to fulfill, youknow, the left and right brain
aspect of it.
But then, you know, then youkind of got to start venturing
(23:05):
into like understanding thebusiness and then also like
building relationships and stuffwhich is like kind of the hard
part of it.
You know, obviously learningthe skill is hard, but that's
the kind of stuff is just likeman, why can't I just do the
thing and then just stuff, just,you know, fall on my plate or
in my lap and it doesn'tnecessarily work that way.
So I guess two questions Firstis what is your approach to
(23:28):
networking or buildingrelationships?
And then second is like, howhas that led to opportunities in
your career?
John Asante (23:36):
My approach is to kind of make sure that there's a
give and take, that it's not aone-sided sort of networking
thing.
I'm not coming in and askingfor, hey, do you have a contact
at this company?
Or hey, can you help me bookthis person?
I want to be able to help thatperson out too, like if they're
looking for a job or trying toconnect with someone at a
(23:56):
company, that I can help themout too.
Because I noticed within thefirst year or so living in LA,
when someone would be like, hey,let's go to lunch.
I took it as, even though Ilived in New York and DC
beforehand, atlanta, which allhave their own entertainment
hubs In my mind I was like, oh,they want to go to lunch and be
friends, this is great.
And then I get to the end ofthe lunch and they're like, hey,
(24:18):
yo, so what can you do for me?
I mean without saying that, andI would sometimes stupidly go
yeah, sure, I'll connect youwith that person.
Or yeah, I'll teach you how Ido my job.
And then a buddy of mine's likeyou can't do that, you got to
get them to charge you for that.
And I was like I can do that.
They're like, yeah, that'sconsulting and so, yeah, I think
(24:39):
that's it.
Another way is, if it's notnecessarily a give and take
symbiotic relationship or abartering thing, then my next
approach and I've done this moreas an independent producer who
now runs their own productioncompany is that that I need to
make sure people pay me for myskills, like I went to school
for this.
I've done this for nearly about15 years.
(25:00):
I've like gone through it, I'vegrinded.
I'm not going to give away myinformation for free.
So it's like, you know, it's noabout knowing how much you're
worth, like state your rate.
And that really got rid of a lotof people for me.
Like there'd be.
I'd be like, hey, my rate isthis and they, and then nothing,
I wouldn't hear from them.
Or I'd say that my rate is thisand they go cool, can we
(25:20):
negotiate?
And I said, okay, you know,we'll figure something out.
Or they'd be like, great, youknow.
And I think my other approachis like come with a sense of
humility and respect andniceness, but not being too nice
, because I have tried not toburn any bridges in my career.
Sure, there's a couple of folksthat I'm.
(25:41):
Maybe I haven't put off, butmaybe I feel put off by them
because they didn't feel likethey respected me or really
believed in my career path orwhat I was trying to do.
I'm not going to name theseforces, but I know how it goes
but yeah, I was like, I was likeI'm sure you can relate, but,
(26:02):
um, as a black man in thisindustry and being like in the
minority, really it's like youhave to kind of keep up this
thing of like what makes youlike a viable candidate or a
person to like, then tap yearslater, like, like.
Here's a prime example when Iworked at NPR, when I did my
second job, I moved from DC toNew York.
This was back in 20, gosh, itwas like the end of 2012,
(26:23):
beginning of 2013.
I worked on a show called AskMe Another, and one of the
partners for the show because itwas a co-production between NPR
and WNYC he and I were prettyfriendly.
We'd always chat at the liveshows that we did live to, tape
shows that we taped in Brooklyn.
And years later, when I wasactually trying to move out to
LA and trying to apply to a jobat Stitcher, I looked on
(26:46):
LinkedIn and I was like, oh man,he's at Stitcher.
This is great.
Let me just send him a note,let's see what happens.
And I didn't even send him anote to say, hey, could you put
in a good recommendation for me?
I just said hi, been a minute.
Hope you're doing well.
I'm applying for the seniorproducer job.
Do you think I'd be a good fit?
I could have gone further tosay, hey, can we chat?
(27:07):
And at the time I didn't reallyhave that mindset.
But no-transcript.
Sidney Evans (27:35):
You kind of got to strike a balance.
You want to be assertive, youwant to be proactive, but you
don't want to be annoying orpushy or disrespectful or
completely self-serving.
You kind of got to strike abalance but, like you mentioned,
especially with the state ofthe industry and hopefully it
(27:57):
won't last forever.
But just applying to jobpostings and just praying and
wishing that doesn't work.
You got to have some type ofconnection, whether it's we have
to have some type of connectionor find other ways to make you
stand out from the crowd.
Whether it's we have to havesome type of connection or find
other ways to you know make youstand out from the crowd,
whether it's like creatingcontent or, you know, hosting a
(28:18):
podcast or things like that.
So, where you're, you're top ofmind.
You're like, ok, this personreally stands out for the crowd.
And I also I know you brieflymentioned you know charging what
you're worth and you know notgiving away everything.
And you know you know makingsure that there's a value
exchange.
Have you, in terms of the audioindustry, like something that I
(28:41):
see, um, that maybe it'sundervalued a little bit, so
people aren't as well morewilling to pay as equitable as
you think they should.
I guess this is a strikingbalance thing too, too, because
if you're just starting, youwant to get opportunities so you
may be able to do things forfree, to build your resume or
(29:04):
for cheap, and, you know, not bein such scarcity that you're
willing to walk away when youknow people can't like meet the
standards or the prices or thevalue that you see for yourself.
John Asante (29:22):
Yeah, that's a.
This is a tough one.
I'm going to try to give it ina way that is broad, more broad,
partly because and maybe forthose starting out partly
because I had I was working inthis industry like at least 10
years before I started chargingpeople for like consulting type
things and then went on my own,so I already kind of knew
(29:44):
literally what I was worth.
I talked to folks.
I basically took like how muchI was making in my last job,
divided it down to like how muchit was per hour, read some
stuff and then tweaked it byadding about 20 to 30% to that
Because, as someone who'sindependently employed, I'm not
getting 401k benefits or medicalbenefits or other stuff through
(30:09):
an employer, so I need to makeup for that and then going from
there, and so I set that rateand then, depending on who I'm
working with, what I would do is, if it's a company, like a
corporation or a big place, I'mlike you can pay more and people
even told me that it was amatter of talking to folks I'm
like I'm going to upcharge it abit.
If it's someone, maybe on mysimilar level, I'm going to hit
(30:29):
that regular rate.
But if it's like a friend andfamily, or someone younger in
their career, maybe someone whoseems like a mentee or is a
mentee, that kind of depends.
I'll give something a bit lower, I think.
For in terms of building up tothat point of when do you charge
, I think it also depends on howmuch you've done.
Like if you've done maybe aninternship or like even I would
even say maybe like even havelike entry levellevel job or two
(30:52):
, I think you could start off bykind of doing what I did of
like taking that rate you were,you were charged, and go from
there and kind of toggle with it.
Um, but also give the examplethat, like would you go to a
lawyer and just say, hey, yo canyou help me for free?
Like would you go to anaccountant, would you go to
think about all the otherindustries that are out there?
(31:14):
Just because the barrier toentry is low in podcasting and
anybody could do it, doesn'tmean because you have those
skills, you should give thoseaway for free.
And it's like you almost haveto turn the question to that
person.
I think there's maybe some giveand take where maybe you do a
little bit for less to start.
But I think once you get thosecredentials up and you've got
(31:37):
those like reps under your beltand you've done stuff
independently and maybe maybedone some freelance stuff here
and there for folks like, stayyour worth, like for sure, do it
.
I wish I did it sooner.
Sidney Evans (31:47):
Yeah, I'm glad you said that because Because when
I started working at Frequency,our CEO was very transparent
about including us in not justthe department that we're in,
but like, okay, this is apotential client, we're going to
pitch them.
This is the deck.
And I started to see numbersand stuff and I was like, wow,
(32:12):
these are the type of numbersthat are being thrown around.
And then also when I joined,like these communities like air
media and pod people, I startedto see, like you know, because
pod people used to have a weeklything where they would get
clients and then they wouldreach out to the people based on
(32:33):
their profile to try to fillthose roles.
And probably within a week ortwo of signing up, they reached
out to me because I think it waslike an engineer got to you,
got to be okay with the no, butI can sleep knowing that, okay,
this is what I charge, this isthe rate, because I know the
numbers that's out there and youknow, as people say, you know,
(33:05):
put some respect to my name, butjust respect me and what I do
and the time for me to developthis skill and, you know, really
pursue it and do it at a highlevel.
John Asante (33:12):
Exactly, and I'm really glad you brought up those
resources because part of it isthat if you don't know what to
charge, where do you go?
And those air association ofindependence and radio um, they
have a really great rate guidethat they keep updating.
I think they're actuallyworking on a new update where
they tell you what the levelsare for producers, editors,
engineers, uh, composers, howmuch you should be charging, and
(33:35):
I would say they more so adhereto public radio type rates, so
it's a little bit lower, butit's a really good starting
point.
I've used that once I wentindependent.
Sidney Evans (33:44):
I just recently I actually last week I'm doing my
first tape sync and I was likeI've never done, I don't know
what to charge.
And and they were like, uh,what's the?
Uh, I'll just play with it, paywhatever, like the rate, the
industry rate is.
And I was able to look it upand see what it was and and they
were like, okay, well, that's,that's, that sounds good to us.
(34:05):
So, um, those starting off, ifyou want, just want to get in
the ball part where you'rereally trying to make the
transition from doing stuff forcheap to, you know, stuff that's
more sustainable, definitelytake advantage of those, like I
said, airmedia, podpeople andjust Google.
There's a lot of little, Iguess, communities or sites or
(34:25):
resources out there to where youcan be informed about that type
of stuff.
John Asante (34:30):
Yeah, and this goes back to connections.
Like I talked to my connectionsand said, hey, yo, what should
I charge?
What am I worth?
And even if you don't havethose connections, I feel like a
lot of folks in the audioindustry, especially those
who've worked for companies, areusually pretty friendly about
cold emails or call, not calls,I should say cold LinkedIn's
(34:51):
emails.
I've fielded plenty of them.
I mean, honestly, it's a matterof just putting it out there
and see who comes back.
Sometimes people don't get back, for whatever reason, but those
are the folks who can.
You can also ask like thisshould be, like hey, I'm just
trying to get to the point wherepeople pay me, what do you
think I should charge?
Like, what are the rates here?
Um, just to get an extra senseof what's going on, Okay, to
(35:15):
transition a little bit.
Sidney Evans (35:16):
So you worked in public radio, started working
for podcast production companiesand then you made the venture
to do that independently.
But I want you to speak on that, like maybe I guess some were
some of the challenges andtakeaways from that.
And then also I saw yourLinkedIn profile too, and you
mentioned it a couple of timesabout mentoring, up and comers
and things like that.
(35:37):
And then also I saw yourLinkedIn profile too, and you
mentioned it a couple of timesabout mentoring, up and comers
and things like that.
What do you get out ofmentoring and do you suggest
others do it as well?
John Asante (35:46):
Going independent was a huge undertaking.
It was honestly something thatI was incredibly afraid of for
my entire career.
I had heard so many horrorstories of folks doing freelance
pieces or production pieces forcompanies and having to chase
down payroll and they're like amI going to make rent and what's
(36:10):
out there?
And it's changed quite a bit.
I would say pre-sealed orpost-serial, and just as the
podcast industry has evolved,it's really changed a lot where
the freelance market, thecontract market, is different.
But I think the biggestundertakings for me were like
one how do I keep a sense oflike constant work coming
through?
Because there were like one ortwo projects I worked on were
(36:32):
very much freelance, where theywere like hey, we're going to
have you work on this like acouple hours a week here and
there.
You just invoice us when you'reready or you've hit a point or
finished this episode, and so itwas really sporadic.
Some weeks it'd be five hours,some weeks it'd be 15.
But most of the stuff, the vastmajority of the stuff I do, is
on contract.
(36:52):
So these are like two, three,six, nine-month gigs, sometimes
even a year, and I'm trying tokeep at least a couple going at
a time.
So I think, because I had beenpaid biweekly my entire career,
even as far back as my first jobat Burger King when I was 15, I
was used to getting a paycheckevery other week, no matter how
much or how little.
It was, resetting my mindset tothen be like, okay, you got to
(37:15):
save some money and know thatyou may not get paid for like a
month or two because of the waythings go and the way that
companies pay, and that's okay.
You're going to have somemonths where you're making a
bank and some months where itlooks like you're in the red.
So that was one of the biggestundertakings.
Number two was just trying tofigure out how do I do this all
financially.
What do I need to set up?
I talked to folks about whetheror not I should set up an LLC.
(37:38):
They said yes, for a fewpurposes, a few reasons, my rate
.
How do I figure that out?
Just like I went through thesame thing that we just talked
about figuring out how to do mytaxes as an independent producer
, contractor, small businessowner, finally having to hire an
accountant for that, which iscrazy and I'm like dang.
(38:02):
And it makes you really realizehow much comes out of taxes.
Because when you're a full-timeemployee, I don't think most of
us really think about it.
We're like, all right, cool,we're just seeing what the net
worth is, how much we're makingnet.
But now when you're acontractor, it's like 30%.
You know, make sure you can payfor your medical bills and like
your yourself, how do you payyourself?
But also keep stuff for later,your overhead and thankfully in
(38:25):
an industry like this, youroverhead should be pretty low,
Like we're not.
You know, subscriptions, maybesome gear here and there, bit of
travel.
And then it was like I thinkanother undertaking or
experience I went through islike, how do I keep these gigs
consistent?
Like, how am I reaching out tocompanies?
How vocal do I need to be aboutlike shouting from the rooftops
(38:48):
saying, hey, I'm looking forwork.
How do I work on my connectionsto then lead to gigs?
Cause it's kind of like so alot of these are long games.
Like it's changed and I willsay my situation is atypical in
a way.
I mean, yes, everybody'ssituation doing the independent
thing, small business thing isdifferent, but mine is atypical
in that and I will be prettyfrank, and I said this when I
(39:11):
finally announced this likepublicly to my friends.
A year into doing it, I was sonervous that it was going to
fail.
Was that when I left my lastjob at Pineapple Street Studios
in 2022,?
I left with a lot of skills,knowing how to balance multiple
projects as a showrunner,knowing a lot of people in the
industry.
But also, I'm married.
I have a wife who has afull-time job.
I have medical benefits throughher, so I didn't have to worry
(39:32):
about that.
We were able to pay the rent onthe house we were renting at
the time pretty easily becausewe had double income coming in.
I had a good amount of the gearI needed already set up, like
the recording gear I have.
I'd already bought my full-timejob.
I also was able to save a goodchunk of money before I went
(39:53):
independent and I was able to.
Really, I went with like a fourmonth plan, going like okay, I'm
going to aim to leave at thispoint, but if at the earliest,
but I will stay around in thisjob until I need to.
And I came out the gate beinglike I'm not just going to jump
and leave and just try to figureit out.
I want to leave with like oneor two gigs secured and at the
(40:13):
time, in 2022, this is likeApril I ended up landing At the
time in 2022, this is like April.
I ended up landing like I gotlike offers for three contract
gigs straight up and I was verylucky.
I feel very fortunate.
I took two of those, One ofthose just time-wise.
I was like I can't do everythingand I was at a very fortunate
point where I had too much workcoming in that I couldn't do and
(40:34):
I didn't want.
I was not at the point where Iwanted the subcontract.
I thought that was going to bekind of messy.
I wasn't planning to make myown company like a production
company at the level of, likePineapple Street Studios or, you
know, Gimlet or a network orwhatever.
Like that was not my ambition.
If anything, I was so stressedin my last job that I was
thinking like, okay, if there'sa way for me to like spread out
the work a bit and maybe not bemanaging folks at the same time,
(40:56):
maybe that's better for myhealth.
Um, and so those, those are theexperiences I went through and
those are the big undertakings.
But, um, it's been a trip.
I mean, no, two days are thesame.
Um, it's the.
I think the benefit of beingindependent is that it's allowed
me to really kind of test outdifferent places to work.
Um, not to say that when I waslike frustrated at my last job
(41:16):
and looking for another job,that I had my choice of where to
go, I wouldn't say that yeah,sure, I did some interviews here
and there, but I was like, isthe grass really going to be
greener on the other side if Igo to another company?
But now, as an independentproducer or contractor, I've
worked with at least 10 othercompanies and you start to get
(41:37):
the inner workings of how thesecompanies work.
Sure, contractors andfreelancers to some extent are
treated differently thanfull-time employees, but at
least you get to kind of knowthe nature of their inner
workings, like how they runstuff you know.
So, in the event, if I ever didget hired by a company or went
to try and apply for a full-timejob later or do more work, then
(41:58):
I know what I'm getting into.
And then going to the mentoringpart, I actually have done quite
a bit of mentoring when I was afull-time employee, partly
because a lot of the companies Iwork for were like hey, we
bring in interns.
Interns are part of thelifeblood of our company,
especially at NPR, when they hadan internship program which,
(42:22):
unfortunately, I think theydiscontinued because of some
budget cuts, which I'm verydisappointed in, because a good
amount of the staff were internsat some point, including myself
, even before me, but I would bementoring interns constantly,
Like every semester.
There was like there were newinterns coming in.
Uh, you know, I wascontributing, helping them out,
Cause people would help me outtoo in the three internships
that I did and um, and I washelping them just make
(42:44):
connections, literally learn howto cut tape, uh, how to write
better, everything, and uh, nowand then getting into, like,
doing this all online during thepandemic, or even people in
different States.
I was able to figure out how totranslate those skills online.
It was a little trickier, but Idid it.
And now, working independently,I still do some mentoring,
(43:05):
especially with the folks thatI've already established
relationships with in my pastjobs.
Those are the ones who I'm notnecessarily going to charge per
se, getting back some money fordifferent skills, but they do
know that, like they know whatI'm worth and if, if it came to
that, they would, Um, but thisway of giving back.
Now, as an independent person,it I had to strike a balance
(43:27):
between how much do I can I dophysically and how much do I
want to do.
You know, in terms of my work,like I got to put on my, like
what's the thing with when youfly?
It's like you got to put onyour oxygen mask before someone
else's.
You know, I still like to do it.
It's just a matter of when isit possible?
(43:48):
And not necessarily what am Igetting out of it, but really,
like, legit, when is it possible?
And I think I've been able todo that in some ways here and
there, especially for folksreaching out, who are also going
independent, who may be earlierin their career.
I've done that with a few folksand that's been great to just
sit down with them and be like,hey, I'm going to just straight
up tell you what it's like andhow much it's evolved, how much
(44:10):
it's changed and what you shoulddo.
And it feels really goodbecause a lot of the folks I'm
doing this for actually at thispoint, I committed myself to do
this like five years ago.
I'm like I'm only, I don't carewho thinks this is like weird or
whatever.
I don't think for this podcastthey will, Cause you're
interviewing black men, women,black people in the industry.
But, like years ago, I was likeI'm only giving advice to black
(44:32):
and brown folks, people frommarginalized communities, LGBTQ
community, Like because I saw somany folks who, like maybe I
gave a little bit of advice toum who were white, make leaps
and bounds, sometimes even pastme, and I was like this is the
same right.
You know, like I gotta behelping these folks who are,
like, not as well represented inthis, who may be doing this at
(44:52):
a hobby level, a passion level,who really want to get to doing
this as at professional level aswell, that may not have the ins
, that may not have been able toget an NPR or a production
company.
That's where I'm at.
It's been really empowering forme.
I just want to see the industrygrow and I want to see more
people like us in there.
Sidney Evans (45:11):
Yeah, I mean that was the main motivation for the
podcast, because I mean, like,you know, um, we, we are, we are
a minority and you know, asoptimistic and as skillful as
you may be, um, you know whenmaybe the opportunities aren't
coming as as and as abundantlyas you would like.
(45:33):
You know.
So it kind of always comes up tointo your mind, it's like
especially when you're activelylike applying to things here,
and it just kind of always comesup to into your mind, is like
especially when you're activelylike applying to things you're,
and it just kind of keeps you inthe head like man, if I, my
skin color was different, likewould it be a little easier.
Like it's just hard not to, youknow, ask yourself that.
But then you kind of gotta, uh,you know, push it forward and
you know, continue with, youknow, forging ahead, like you
(45:54):
know so, and especially duringduring this time, like it's like
okay, once you commit to it,you got to see it through, like,
no matter what waves of emotion, um, that you may, you may
experience, that you know, onceyou decide like, whatever
happens, I'm just gonna keepgoing, you do that.
So, as far as the mentor thing,before we jump into the last,
like which is kind of more rapidfire and general questions.
(46:17):
If someone's listening to thisand was like, okay, I want to
have one takeaway that I canapply to my career, what would
you like them to walk away with?
John Asante (46:29):
If you have the idea and the passion for it,
just do it.
Go for it.
For anybody I talked to who'slike I want to make a podcast,
and they've been thinking on it,mulling over it, for months,
maybe years.
I've been there before.
I'm like just take a shot, takea shot at it, do it, even if
you're doing it as a passionproject or a hobby.
You never know what it couldlead to.
(46:50):
I've seen plenty of people dothat and now they have full-time
jobs as audio producers,engineers, sound designers,
editors.
Now they have full-time jobs asaudio producers, engineers,
sound designers, editors.
And it was just because theyhad that self-starting attitude
and just drive to do it on theirown and I think employers like
that.
It's helped me out too.
I think that's probably themost succinct advice I can give.
Sidney Evans (47:14):
I mean, this is what I'm doing.
I've had this idea for this foryears, so I love that advice.
All right, so last, like I said, last portion of the show, and
these are just.
We start off with getting alittle bit more about you as a
person.
Now we're going to end withyour taste and your interest.
So, favorite album of all time.
John Asante (47:34):
God man, you can put me on the spot like that.
Sidney Evans (47:39):
I was like man, man, I could do this.
I tried to lead you in and getyou get your mind going favorite
album of all time like man.
John Asante (47:43):
If this were by genre, I could do it, man.
Um, okay, actually I got one.
This probably is a one allacross the board.
Uh, midnight marauders by tribecalled quest okay, I haven't.
Sidney Evans (47:54):
Obviously I know who tribe called quest is, but I
haven't.
A lot of times, like I gothrough these phases of where
I'm introduced, not introduced,well, like I'm aware of the
group, the artists, producer,whatever, and you know, I kind
of I've heard the stuff thatplays on the radio, like the
real popular stuff, but then atsome point I go down that road
of, okay, I'm gonna go listen toeverything they've done and
(48:16):
really appreciate it, you know,be able to consume it for what
it is.
And I actually was.
There was a movie me and mygirlfriend just watched it.
It was the Sonali, the WesleySnipes.
I forgot the name of the movie,but Q-Tip was in it because she
was like a singer and they wereworking together.
And I think that was a signbecause I watched that and then
you just mentioned that.
So I think I need to go listento, like all tribe stuff.
(48:42):
Yes and yes, yes.
John Asante (48:43):
And really, you know, give them their flowers
for for what they have done.
Sidney Evans (48:45):
Okay, um so next favorite producer, hip-hop army
producer.
Well, I guess it doesn't haveto be just black favorite are?
John Asante (48:51):
you talking about music producer or music producer
?
Yes, oh, I think I gotta saypharrell pharrell yeah, oh,
always been a fan from, from, uh, the neptunes, but oh my god, I
mean the neptunes.
So many of those beats justlike remind, like, just like
mark my childhood and my and myteen years from the neptunes to
(49:13):
nerd, to clips.
Oh my god, love what they'vedone.
God Love what he's done withClipse and just so many artists
afterward.
I just think he's incrediblytalented and creative.
Sidney Evans (49:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Can I go wrong with Pharrell?
John Asante (49:28):
Yeah, okay, next Favorite film score or
soundtrack Ooh, favorite filmscore or soundtrack I want to go
toward.
Oh my God, I'm trying to thinkif it's a Spike Lee movie and
I'm completely forgetting whichone it is.
Oh my God, is it?
Do the Right Thing.
I think I got to say Do theRight Thing, yeah, yep, do the
(49:50):
Right Thing, yep.
Sidney Evans (49:51):
Okay, and last favorite TV theme song.
John Asante (49:57):
Oh man, this is a good one, Cause I'm like I've
been hitting this nostalgiapoint.
Oh man, I feel like it'sbetween the fresh Prince and,
weirdly enough, family mattersFamily matters.
Sidney Evans (50:08):
Those are the I'm like and one of the episodes
that I just recently put out,cause most people so far have
said fresh Prince, yeah, but Ididn't want to say Fresh Prince,
so I said Family Mattersbecause that's like the most TV
theme songy I could think of.
But then later on I startedthinking of older ones like
(50:29):
Sanford and Son and Jeffersonsand stuff like that.
John Asante (50:32):
Yeah, when they tell the plot of the show in the
theme song, which is not athing anymore.
Yeah, tell the plot of the, ofthe, the show in the theme song
which is not a thing anymore,you know, or?
Sidney Evans (50:39):
yeah, they don't.
They just try to make it asshort as possible.
John Asante (50:43):
Now get get into it and if it is short, like any,
any like netflix or max is likeskip intro.
Yeah, you can skip because theyknow that attention span is
short, so they give you thatoption actually, you know, I
thought of one that really is myfavorite keenan and cal keen,
oh, and Kel, oh, that's a goodone.
Sidney Evans (50:59):
That's a good one.
That's a good one too.
I forgot about those.
John Asante (51:03):
I mean just like Coolio doing Kenan and Kel, and
wasn't all that, was that TLC,it was TLC.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I got to say Kenan and Kelbecause Coolio is just so good
on that.
Oh my God that was that was.
Sidney Evans (51:16):
That was a good, that's a good one, man, I forgot
about that one completely.
All right, yeah, brad, thoseare.
Those are some great, great,great responses, Some new stuff,
some stuff we haven't heard onthe show so far.
But yeah, I think we can wrapup here.
Man, before we hop off, I dowant you to would appreciate if
you could share where we canfind you, connect with you, look
(51:39):
at more.
I know we got into like, theskill itself, but we didn't
mention as much as the actualshows, the things that you
worked on.
So where can they, like youknow, find all that stuff,
listen to it if they would liketo?
If there's anything upcomingthat you would like to promote,
you could take the time to dothat as well.
Sure.
John Asante (51:55):
Yeah, so you can find all the work that I've done
all 30 something podcasts andradio shows on my website,
johnassanticom A-S-A-N-T-E.
That's how you spell it, let'ssee.
Oh, on social media I'm reallyjust on Instagram, I'm at
thejohnassanti T-H-E, johnAssanti, and Twitter, sometimes
(52:17):
at JKBSante, and not really onthe TikTok, though I should
probably get on it.
I'm resisting, not because Idon't like it, just because I
know it's going to suck up mytime.
And then the most recent, mycurrent, I guess, client project
, to put it professionally, witha show I'm producing right now.
It's a show called One Song.
(52:37):
It's a music analysis podcast.
So, if you like, shows likeSong Exploder or Switched On Pop
or Broken Record, it's kind ofin that realm.
So every episode we break downone song from the pop culture
canon from the past 60 years,everything from hip hop to pop
rock, r&b, funk, soul, jazz,disco.
You can see I've rehearsed thisbut we break down the cultural
(53:01):
significance of the song, whyit's important, why you should
listen to it again, and then webreak it down stem by stem, like
the x-ray of the song.
You get to hear the isolateddrums, the vocals, the keyboards
, the anything, and it's it'sjust such a fun show.
I've really enjoyed it.
I've produced episodes on, likeMiley Cyrus' Flowers, the
Weeknd's Can't Feel my Face Gosh.
(53:24):
It's been a bunch, it's amazing.
So, yeah, check it out.
Sidney Evans (53:27):
One song Okay, yeah, I'm very, very curious.
I'm going to have to go checkthat out.
How does that work with, likedoes that fall under fair use?
John Asante (53:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.
That's how I was about to sayOkay.
Sidney Evans (53:44):
I was about to say , cause if y'all, if you want to
just play it, you might have toget it to like public domain,
which is from like 1915 orsomething.
John Asante (53:51):
Yeah.
Sidney Evans (53:52):
Okay, just just just curious Very good question.
John Asante (53:56):
Yeah, fair use.
Fair use is up for it.
Yeah.
Sidney Evans (53:59):
Okay, well, cool man.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat.
I'm going to check that out andif everybody listening, visit
his website and check out theother things stuff as well.
But, like I said, appreciateyou coming on, enjoyed having
you on.
Thanks and for those listening,I'll catch you on the next
episode.
Thank you for joining us ontoday's episode.
(54:22):
Please don't forget tosubscribe to the show and leave
us a review.
If you'd like to work with meor connect, please go to
soundbysitcom and schedule acall there.
You can also check out the fulllist of productions I've worked
on.
If you'd like to connect onsocial media, my handle is
soundbysetcom on Twitter andInstagram and I'm Sidney Evans
(54:44):
on LinkedIn.
Don't forget to follow Beyondthe Threshold on Instagram as
well.
I'll catch you on the nextepisode.
A showrunner on the basis is the person making sure
on the daily and weekly levelthat everybody knows what
they're doing and setting thecourse of action for a podcast
from start to finish, from likethe idea and the development,
all the way to the launch.
Sidney Evans (00:20):
Tune in as we give flowers to Black men and women
making waves in the audioindustry.
I'm your host, sidney Evans,and this is Beyond the Threshold
.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcometo Beyond Threshold.
(00:45):
I'm your host, sidney Evans, anaward-winning audio editor,
mixer and producer.
For those of you who don't know, on this show I interview Black
men and women working in theaudio industry to highlight the
lessons and experiences it takesto achieve success in the field
.
We got another great episode instore for today, as well as
(01:06):
another amazing guest.
And preparing for this interviewand doing research for this
guest, obviously LinkedIn kindof creates the outline for their
career and kind of get a feelfor the person.
So as I was doing that, I foundmyself looking at the
recommendations.
It was nothing but positivethings, kind words and that's
(01:27):
the vibe I kind of got from himand just communicating with him
to get on and record thisepisode.
So to give you a little bit onhis background he's a
Ghanaian-American andaward-winning independent audio
producer, showrunner andconsultant based in Los Angeles.
He has over 15 years in theaudio world which have been
(01:48):
devoted to crafting stories thatshine a light on Black and
Brown people, as well as folksfrom marginalized communities.
He has produced and developedover 30 podcasts for various
outlets, including HBO, netflix,heartbeat, audible and Imagine
Entertainment.
He also independently hostedand produced Play it Back, a
podcast telling stories of howmusic lovers discovered the
(02:10):
songs that have changed theirlives, and, before forming his
own production company, he was ashowrunner on various podcasts
for Pineapple Street Studios,neon Home Media and Stitcher.
So, without further ado, I'dlike to introduce today's guest,
john Asante.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks, man, thanks for havingme.
(02:31):
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
Outside of the skills andability, I generally like to
have people on who are talentedbut also good people, and that
tends to reflect in the work andthe relationships that you
build professionally and throughyour personal life as well.
So, first and foremost, justkind of want to get a little bit
(02:53):
of background on you in generalas a person and then we can get
into like your inspiration andinfluences that made you want to
get into the audio world.
What kind of was the motivationfor you to take in this career
path?
John Asante (03:08):
Yeah, sure.
So, as you said, I'm GhanianAmerican, whole famous from
Ghana.
I'm first generation.
It was interesting from thebeginning because nobody in my
family is in really a creativespace until, like this current
generation, only a couple of mycousins and stuff.
So going the audio route assomething in entertainment was
not something that I was exposedto.
(03:30):
I grew up between New Jersey andGeorgia, but Atlanta's home,
and I think what really got meinto pursuing a career in audio
or some form of entertainmentwas watching a ton of sports
that are growing up.
Like you, I was into sports,played baseball, basketball,
soccer, so on and so forth, abunch of other stuff and Stuart
Scott rest in peace was one ofmy huge inspirations from his
(03:54):
catchphrases like boo yeah, andall of his energy and the way he
reported these stories was soamazing that when I was 15, 16
in high school, I was like Iwant to do that.
So I started off writing for myhigh school's newspaper, went
to college at Georgia StateUniversity, knew right away I
wanted to do journalism and wentin thinking I was going to be a
(04:16):
TV reporter and work my way upto, hopefully, cnn or ESPN one
day, and along the way I wrotefor my school's newspaper, did
some reporting for our TVstation, but our TV station shut
down so a lot of us who weredoing reporting went over to the
radio station WRAS shout out to88.5, album 88, because it was
(04:38):
like really well respected.
The frequency of the stationwent all over Atlanta and I came
in just like reporting the newsat the top of the hour a couple
of days a week.
Then I saw the DJs and I waslike I can do that.
They don't really have like thebest speaking voices.
I had always been like reallybig on like the performance of
audio and radio and after I sawhim do it a bit I was like I I
(05:02):
knew that this is something Icould do.
I had a passion for music a bitof playing, but mostly going to
shows, collecting CDs, justgetting my hands on anything I
could, and I just loved therange of music they were playing
.
It was all like indie,underground stuff.
We didn't play anythingmainstream, although it was one
of the first stations to reallyput outcasts on the map before
they went huge.
So I became a DJ um doing kindof like regular rotation during
(05:28):
the week and then I became um aco-host of a blues show with my
friend uh shout out to KyleStapleton who, um, encouraged me
to do it with him, even thoughI didn't know a ton about the
blues at the time.
And that rolled into also medoing more um on air work with
the news station or the newsside of the station, and I ended
up becoming the news directorby my senior year and hosting
(05:51):
what would have been a podcastat the time this was like 2008.
So podcasting wasn't nearly asbig of a thing, more so a hobby,
and I did this public affairsshow.
I was kind of like interviewingwhoever famous came through the
station or different professorsand stuff, and it was just
really fun.
I loved doing it and it wasgreat.
(06:13):
I interviewed comedians, actors, writers.
It was just really, reallygreat to have that access.
And I had an internship in DC atSirius XM summer before my
senior year and that's whatreally motivated me to be like,
oh, I want to do this.
I was a producer productionintern on the public radio
(06:36):
channel of Sirius this is beforethey merged with XM was like
the same summer and I basicallygot to work on a show called the
Bob Edwards Show, which waskind of like fresh air, but done
by a different guy who used tohost Morning Edition but then
had left to go to Sirius whenSirius was first getting out
really big deals.
And I got to meet all thosepeople who were former NPR
(06:57):
producers and at the time Ibarely listened to NPR, I barely
knew about it.
I did not grow up in a house ofpublic radio.
It was either radio or CNN orsome other news, local news and
I started to learn about how tocreate stories without the
visuals, with audio, and it wasamazing.
I was like this is challengingbut this is really fun.
I got to pitch a few differentpeople to interview and a few
(07:19):
different topics to cover and Igot to produce three full
interviews on my own, like 30,40 minute long interviews during
that internship and I was likethis is more than I've done in
any of my classes that were moreso video production based.
And that was the light bulbthat went off.
I was like I came back as anews director hosting that show,
being like, okay, this is whatwe're going to do.
(07:40):
I'm like my motivation was togo back to DC after I graduated
during the worst economy atleast back then um, and become a
um, a public radio producer,and so, yeah, I think I kind of
shelved the like the TV dream ofsorts, because I realized how
much um, how much intimacy therewas in audio and how much I
(08:03):
could do.
And, yeah, that was mymotivation.
Summer, after I graduated fromcollege, I did not have a job
lined up, at least a full-timejob.
I had like a temp job at myschool, working in like the what
do we call it?
The commencement office, likeplanning the graduation
ceremonies.
But I was like I'm going backto DC, somehow, somehow got a
last minute internship at NPR,working on Weekend, all Things
(08:24):
Considered, and from there I gotto learn the tricks of the
trade for public radio.
I got to work on some internprojects, got to just chat up
anybody I could, the likes ofAri Shapiro and Michelle Martin
folks that are still there todayand I was like this is it?
I think I want to do it andthat's what led me in, because
(08:45):
my, my action, my career startedin public radio and I got my
first job at the end of 2009.
And that's kind of what chartedthe course.
But I will pause it here.
Sidney Evans (08:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's a.
That's actually a good placefor me to jump in Cause.
I just wanted to say, like umand me pursuing media, like I
went to um, to FayettevilleState University, and was in a
mass communications departmentand a lot of like outside of
these, like obviously GeorgiaState is bigger and Fayetteville
State's a smaller HBCU in NorthCarolina, but a lot of the
(09:17):
times, like our education andwhat we're exposed to there,
it's like very broad and youkind of have an idea of what you
want to do but you may notnecessarily get to do it within
the context of going to school.
Like for me, sports was a was abig thing for me.
Like I originally majored inmass comm because I wanted to be
(09:38):
like a broadcaster sportsbroadcaster and I I did all
these other things in um duringmy time there and learned and to
to kind of tie it all in.
You know, a lot of times westart off wanting to do things
and then you get exposed tosomething and it kind of takes
you down a whole path.
Like I don't think there's toomany young, uh, you know, uh,
black kids growing up saying,well, I want to do public radio.
(10:00):
Like I don't think that's athing.
You could end up doing it,obviously, and take a liking to
it, but I don't think you gointo it with that being the goal
.
But as far as your experiencein public radio, how long did
you work in public radio?
John Asante (10:16):
Total of seven years, five at NPR from 2009 to
2014.
And then I left for a bit, thencame back at WNYC and lived in
New York for about from 2016 to2017.
Sidney Evans (10:31):
Cool.
So how did you?
I guess a question would belike what were some things that
you learned?
That kind of you, looking backon it, now realized like okay,
these are really foundationalskills and it's something that
kind of I was able to carry withme throughout the course of
your entire career.
And obviously we'll get intothe things that you did
afterwards.
(10:51):
But I'm just curious about whatwere those foundational things
that, looking back on, you sawthey're very important.
John Asante (10:57):
Yeah for sure.
Number one editing is key,whether it's your script writing
, you're editing audio, and I'llprobably use this
interchangeably.
At NPR they would say cuttingtape in a way you're thinking
about, also about as a listenerhow long should this last, how
long is it going to beinteresting?
How long can I keep alistener's attention?
(11:17):
What do I get out of this?
What are they getting out ofthis?
So that was huge for me.
Also, in terms of cutting tape,kind of finding the balance
between what should stay andwhat shouldn't stay, I think
it's evolved a bit.
Where it used to be cut out allthe errs and ums and cut out
all the breaths and stuff likethat, or a lot of them,
(12:10):
no-transcript.
I learned how to work ondeadlines because the first
couple jobs I had werenews-based and you it was like
you come in either knowing whatyou're going to work on for the
day which might air later andthis is when I worked on talk of
the nation and you would workon that or you get the
(12:32):
assignment that morning likewe'd be in the pitch meeting and
you're like, okay, cool.
And, mind you, when I wasworking on the show, the war in
Afghanistan was still going.
So a lot of what we werecovering was that, and so it'd
be like, okay, cool, we need tobook this someone who works in
policy to figure out what'sObama's next move in Afghanistan
, and I wasn't too well versedon it, so I had to like, within
(12:54):
a few hours, I had to likefigure out who to book, like
read through articles, be like,okay, this person has a good
take, we need to book thisperson.
Either I find them by like email, phone, they're like press
person.
What have you Get them into astudio, write a quick script for
our host, write questions, makesure all that went through
(13:16):
right.
And it was a live show, so Ialso had to screen calls.
So it was all about deadlinesand when I tell people that that
I had to do that in like fourhours, they're like that's crazy
, because with podcasting wehave so much time.
But I think having that senseof timeliness and just hitting
deadlines was super, superimportant.
I'd say those are like thebiggest things I took away from
(13:37):
public radio, for sure.
Yeah.
Sidney Evans (13:40):
I think that's kind of good to have to start
off with something that is thereI both they're both audio
mediums but starting fromsomething that is a little more
stressful and strenuous.
And then when you kind of makea transition to something else
that is a little more tame or isnot as fast paced, obviously
it's actually better than youknow the, the, then vice versa,
(14:02):
having to maybe start off inpodcasting and then, oh, I want
to do public radio and you'relike, oh, this is much more fast
paced, the speed at whichthings can move can be
overwhelming.
So, uh, that, and obviously Ithink another big thing you said
is you know, learn how to writequestions, scripts or whatever
like the writing aspect of it,because that is the foundation,
and I I harp on this almost inevery interview, but I do that
(14:26):
for a reason because it's veryimportant.
If you're an editor, or,obviously, if you produce,
you're expected to be able towrite more.
But if you want to continue tobuild your career and be more
valuable, the better you write,the more valuable you'll be.
That's something that Idefinitely learned.
So, to actually make thetransition.
So you said you worked inpublic radio for seven years,
(14:49):
correct?
Yeah, what prompted thetransition into podcasting?
Was it something that you were,that you did consciously, or
was it just the nature of howthings were evolving?
John Asante (15:00):
I think it was a bit of both, but more so the
latter, because when I was inpublic radio I can think the
first time NPR was starting toget into podcasts the only real
podcast they had was PlanetMoney and I was listening to it
all the time, but I didn't thinkof it as a podcast as we
usually do, where I'm onlylistening to it on the Apple
(15:22):
Podcasts app I guess back thenit was iTunes.
Spotify wasn't doing podcastsback then, so I saw that there
was a different way to tellstories.
For plenty of money they wouldair the stuff both on radio and
as a podcast, and that'ssomething that NPR used to do a
lot and I think still does tosome extent.
But it was more so theevolution of the medium.
(15:44):
I actually left public radio,coincidentally months before
Serial came out, and so Iswitched to doing this marketing
job, kind of felt like I wantedto do audio stuff on the side.
Audio projects want to evolvemy career.
I thought I wanted to go get anMBA in marketing.
I didn't and I think that was avery financially sound decision
(16:04):
.
But I saw how it was boomingbecause of Serial and how much
money was going into it, butmore so the craft and how it was
evolving and how all my publicradio skills directly translated
, especially from a show thatcame from folks from this
American Life, and also as I sawthe podcast or other radio
shows really start to focus onthe podcast side, I go, oh, I
(16:26):
can I cut tape, I write, I canbook guests, I have all this, I
can do it.
And for me it didn't feel aslimiting Like that's why I also
created Play it Back was that Iknew I was never going to pitch
it as like an NPR show, likeit's like super hard to get an
NPR show made or even just likea public radio show made on a
station unless you have the endsor you have a good pitch or you
(16:47):
know what have you.
But I was like I can do thismyself, like I have the agency
to do it myself, like we allknow it's a low barrier to entry
.
But then as I saw it evolveinto more of like a structured,
(17:09):
profitable, like medium that wasevolving and that this Wild
West scene was open, I was like,oh, I can capitalize on this,
like I know what I'm doing, Ican bring like really viable
skills to helping out a team andso, actually, when I went back
into public radio in 2016 at wyc, my first gig there was on a
podcast.
Before I went back to doing aradio show I worked on there
Goes the Neighborhood, which wasthis seven-part series.
I think it was seven parts.
Anyways, the first season thatI worked on was about the
(17:31):
gentrification of Brooklyn atthe time being, but just over
the course of decades, andhaving lived in Brooklyn in
Crown Heights, I was seeing ithappen firsthand and it was wild
.
It was a temp job that led intofinally, thankfully, a
full-time job.
But the fact that we didn't weweren't adherent to, like the
radio deadlines and we were ableto work on something at length
(17:53):
and it was a narrative podcastwhich I had been wanting to work
on.
After years of doing live, liveradio, lively tape, even worked
on a game show at NPR.
This was like a breath of freshair and I just realized, as a
producer, how many differentthings I could do and it wasn't
just about writing and cuttingtape.
I actually ended up kind ofbecoming this was kind of like
(18:14):
the beginning of me doing sortof a bit of show running.
I realized there were likeseveral different departments
not talking to each other, likethe newsroom wasn't talking to
the podcast unit and themarketing and social media folks
weren't talking to the editorsand producers and the hosts.
I was like let's bring it alltogether and it was beautiful.
We came up with and I think thepodcast did really well and it
(18:36):
led to two more seasons in twodifferent cities and I was like
this is what I want to do.
I want to really be in thepodcasting side of things
instead of just radio.
Sidney Evans (18:43):
Okay, I'm glad you you segue perfectly into one of
my questions.
I like to define things forpeople, because those who
obviously we're in the audioworld and this obviously is a
platform for those already inaudio too but for those who are
very early on or anything inbetween, from you know early on
(19:04):
to to season, like defining theterms, because obviously you go
from you know film, tv andpodcasting, there, uh, there are
different terms within eachmedium, but then there are also
similar terms, but they can bedifferent things contextual to
the medium.
So, um, before we get more intoyour show running experience,
(19:26):
can you actually define it forus and then, uh, go into the
experiences you have had withbeing a showrunner?
John Asante (19:34):
Sure, yeah.
So a showrunner on the basis isthe person making sure on the
daily and weekly level thateverybody knows what they're
doing and setting the course ofaction for a podcast from start
to finish, from like the ideaand the development, all the way
to the launch, and for anybodylooking for a job as a
(19:56):
showrunner if there are any outthere I'm not sure right now.
It's a really tough time in theindustry, as I'm sure you guys
know.
Sometimes that job is listed asmanaging producer, senior
managing producer.
It's one step below anexecutive producer, basically.
Also, even sometimes seniorproducers end up doing
showrunner-type jobs and theseterms get interchanged depending
(20:18):
on where you're working and allthat stuff.
Yeah, I see supervising producera lot too.
Supervising producer also, inmy opinion, falls under
showrunner.
But yeah, you're the onesetting the course of action,
making sure everybody knows whatthey're doing.
I think one of the biggestthings is keeping people on
track, on schedule, to geteverything done.
Um, are you hitting thedeadlines?
(20:38):
Do we have the guest book intime?
Are we getting our mixes donein time?
Um, does everything sound good?
Usually the sir runner is one ofthe last people in some of the
jobs I've had to listen to anddo like a final qc of the audio
before it goes out.
So you're kind of the last lineof defense, whereas, like, the
executive producers usuallycomes in and out like they're in
(20:58):
the beginning with like theideation and development and the
pre-production, and they mightpop out because they're doing a
lot more of the higher levelstuff.
You know, making sure that,like, sponsorships and ads are
getting set, maybe working witha partner if you're doing like
production with another companyto make sure everything's set,
figuring out how the show justgets out and makes money in some
ways Actually that is part ofit, I should say Securing other
(21:21):
deals for other shows in anetwork or a production company.
So, yeah, you as a showrunner,you're usually concentrating on
that one or two shows that go onand also putting out fires.
That's a part of it too.
It's not a sexy job, butsomeone's got to do it.
That's what I always say aboutshow running and the reason why
I've been using show runninginstead of these other producer
(21:43):
jobs.
A lot of these other jobssenior producer, supervising
producer, managing producer getinterchange.
And when I talked to someone,actually when I was networking
out here in LA several years ago, like before the pandemic, and
I told someone what I did atsome like podcasting event and I
think they worked in TV or filmand they said, oh, that sounds
a lot like show running and TV.
(22:04):
And I go, oh, I don't even knowwhat a show runner is.
But then they explained it andit is pretty similar.
I mean, they do definitelyother stuff, but it is a very
translatable term to help folksin other entertainment
industries understand what youdo.
Sidney Evans (22:18):
Okay.
So yeah, you actually mentionedI'm glad you well, first of all
, thank you for explaining that.
And then you also mentioned Iguess this is a good opportunity
to point out but you werenetworking with someone in LA
and I forgot to put this in mynotes but like the build a
relationships part of it, justkind of this evolution that you
go through with when you'redeveloping a skill, then you get
(22:40):
good at it, then you startfinding work and things like
that especially.
You know, speaking from myexperience, I got the reason I
love audio so much is a big partof it is the technical side of
things, is the technical side ofthings.
And then it evolved into morethe creative and that was kind
of like a I get to fulfill, youknow, the left and right brain
aspect of it.
But then, you know, then youkind of got to start venturing
(23:05):
into like understanding thebusiness and then also like
building relationships and stuffwhich is like kind of the hard
part of it.
You know, obviously learningthe skill is hard, but that's
the kind of stuff is just likeman, why can't I just do the
thing and then just stuff, just,you know, fall on my plate or
in my lap and it doesn'tnecessarily work that way.
So I guess two questions Firstis what is your approach to
(23:28):
networking or buildingrelationships?
And then second is like, howhas that led to opportunities in
your career?
John Asante (23:36):
My approach is to kind of make sure that there's a
give and take, that it's not aone-sided sort of networking
thing.
I'm not coming in and askingfor, hey, do you have a contact
at this company?
Or hey, can you help me bookthis person?
I want to be able to help thatperson out too, like if they're
looking for a job or trying toconnect with someone at a
(23:56):
company, that I can help themout too.
Because I noticed within thefirst year or so living in LA,
when someone would be like, hey,let's go to lunch.
I took it as, even though Ilived in New York and DC
beforehand, atlanta, which allhave their own entertainment
hubs In my mind I was like, oh,they want to go to lunch and be
friends, this is great.
And then I get to the end ofthe lunch and they're like, hey,
(24:18):
yo, so what can you do for me?
I mean without saying that, andI would sometimes stupidly go
yeah, sure, I'll connect youwith that person.
Or yeah, I'll teach you how Ido my job.
And then a buddy of mine's likeyou can't do that, you got to
get them to charge you for that.
And I was like I can do that.
They're like, yeah, that'sconsulting and so, yeah, I think
(24:39):
that's it.
Another way is, if it's notnecessarily a give and take
symbiotic relationship or abartering thing, then my next
approach and I've done this moreas an independent producer who
now runs their own productioncompany is that that I need to
make sure people pay me for myskills, like I went to school
for this.
I've done this for nearly about15 years.
(25:00):
I've like gone through it, I'vegrinded.
I'm not going to give away myinformation for free.
So it's like, you know, it's noabout knowing how much you're
worth, like state your rate.
And that really got rid of a lotof people for me.
Like there'd be.
I'd be like, hey, my rate isthis and they, and then nothing,
I wouldn't hear from them.
Or I'd say that my rate is thisand they go cool, can we
(25:20):
negotiate?
And I said, okay, you know,we'll figure something out.
Or they'd be like, great, youknow.
And I think my other approachis like come with a sense of
humility and respect andniceness, but not being too nice
, because I have tried not toburn any bridges in my career.
Sure, there's a couple of folksthat I'm.
(25:41):
Maybe I haven't put off, butmaybe I feel put off by them
because they didn't feel likethey respected me or really
believed in my career path orwhat I was trying to do.
I'm not going to name theseforces, but I know how it goes
but yeah, I was like, I was likeI'm sure you can relate, but,
(26:02):
um, as a black man in thisindustry and being like in the
minority, really it's like youhave to kind of keep up this
thing of like what makes youlike a viable candidate or a
person to like, then tap yearslater, like, like.
Here's a prime example when Iworked at NPR, when I did my
second job, I moved from DC toNew York.
This was back in 20, gosh, itwas like the end of 2012,
(26:23):
beginning of 2013.
I worked on a show called AskMe Another, and one of the
partners for the show because itwas a co-production between NPR
and WNYC he and I were prettyfriendly.
We'd always chat at the liveshows that we did live to, tape
shows that we taped in Brooklyn.
And years later, when I wasactually trying to move out to
LA and trying to apply to a jobat Stitcher, I looked on
(26:46):
LinkedIn and I was like, oh man,he's at Stitcher.
This is great.
Let me just send him a note,let's see what happens.
And I didn't even send him anote to say, hey, could you put
in a good recommendation for me?
I just said hi, been a minute.
Hope you're doing well.
I'm applying for the seniorproducer job.
Do you think I'd be a good fit?
I could have gone further tosay, hey, can we chat?
(27:07):
And at the time I didn't reallyhave that mindset.
But no-transcript.
Sidney Evans (27:35):
You kind of got to strike a balance.
You want to be assertive, youwant to be proactive, but you
don't want to be annoying orpushy or disrespectful or
completely self-serving.
You kind of got to strike abalance but, like you mentioned,
especially with the state ofthe industry and hopefully it
(27:57):
won't last forever.
But just applying to jobpostings and just praying and
wishing that doesn't work.
You got to have some type ofconnection, whether it's we have
to have some type of connectionor find other ways to make you
stand out from the crowd.
Whether it's we have to havesome type of connection or find
other ways to you know make youstand out from the crowd,
whether it's like creatingcontent or, you know, hosting a
(28:18):
podcast or things like that.
So, where you're, you're top ofmind.
You're like, ok, this personreally stands out for the crowd.
And I also I know you brieflymentioned you know charging what
you're worth and you know notgiving away everything.
And you know you know makingsure that there's a value
exchange.
Have you, in terms of the audioindustry, like something that I
(28:41):
see, um, that maybe it'sundervalued a little bit, so
people aren't as well morewilling to pay as equitable as
you think they should.
I guess this is a strikingbalance thing too, too, because
if you're just starting, youwant to get opportunities so you
may be able to do things forfree, to build your resume or
(29:04):
for cheap, and, you know, not bein such scarcity that you're
willing to walk away when youknow people can't like meet the
standards or the prices or thevalue that you see for yourself.
John Asante (29:22):
Yeah, that's a.
This is a tough one.
I'm going to try to give it ina way that is broad, more broad,
partly because and maybe forthose starting out partly
because I had I was working inthis industry like at least 10
years before I started chargingpeople for like consulting type
things and then went on my own,so I already kind of knew
(29:44):
literally what I was worth.
I talked to folks.
I basically took like how muchI was making in my last job,
divided it down to like how muchit was per hour, read some
stuff and then tweaked it byadding about 20 to 30% to that
Because, as someone who'sindependently employed, I'm not
getting 401k benefits or medicalbenefits or other stuff through
(30:09):
an employer, so I need to makeup for that and then going from
there, and so I set that rateand then, depending on who I'm
working with, what I would do is, if it's a company, like a
corporation or a big place, I'mlike you can pay more and people
even told me that it was amatter of talking to folks I'm
like I'm going to upcharge it abit.
If it's someone, maybe on mysimilar level, I'm going to hit
(30:29):
that regular rate.
But if it's like a friend andfamily, or someone younger in
their career, maybe someone whoseems like a mentee or is a
mentee, that kind of depends.
I'll give something a bit lower, I think.
For in terms of building up tothat point of when do you charge
, I think it also depends on howmuch you've done.
Like if you've done maybe aninternship or like even I would
even say maybe like even havelike entry levellevel job or two
(30:52):
, I think you could start off bykind of doing what I did of
like taking that rate you were,you were charged, and go from
there and kind of toggle with it.
Um, but also give the examplethat, like would you go to a
lawyer and just say, hey, yo canyou help me for free?
Like would you go to anaccountant, would you go to
think about all the otherindustries that are out there?
(31:14):
Just because the barrier toentry is low in podcasting and
anybody could do it, doesn'tmean because you have those
skills, you should give thoseaway for free.
And it's like you almost haveto turn the question to that
person.
I think there's maybe some giveand take where maybe you do a
little bit for less to start.
But I think once you get thosecredentials up and you've got
(31:37):
those like reps under your beltand you've done stuff
independently and maybe maybedone some freelance stuff here
and there for folks like, stayyour worth, like for sure, do it
.
I wish I did it sooner.
Sidney Evans (31:47):
Yeah, I'm glad you said that because Because when
I started working at Frequency,our CEO was very transparent
about including us in not justthe department that we're in,
but like, okay, this is apotential client, we're going to
pitch them.
This is the deck.
And I started to see numbersand stuff and I was like, wow,
(32:12):
these are the type of numbersthat are being thrown around.
And then also when I joined,like these communities like air
media and pod people, I startedto see, like you know, because
pod people used to have a weeklything where they would get
clients and then they wouldreach out to the people based on
(32:33):
their profile to try to fillthose roles.
And probably within a week ortwo of signing up, they reached
out to me because I think it waslike an engineer got to you,
got to be okay with the no, butI can sleep knowing that, okay,
this is what I charge, this isthe rate, because I know the
numbers that's out there and youknow, as people say, you know,
(33:05):
put some respect to my name, butjust respect me and what I do
and the time for me to developthis skill and, you know, really
pursue it and do it at a highlevel.
John Asante (33:12):
Exactly, and I'm really glad you brought up those
resources because part of it isthat if you don't know what to
charge, where do you go?
And those air association ofindependence and radio um, they
have a really great rate guidethat they keep updating.
I think they're actuallyworking on a new update where
they tell you what the levelsare for producers, editors,
engineers, uh, composers, howmuch you should be charging, and
(33:35):
I would say they more so adhereto public radio type rates, so
it's a little bit lower, butit's a really good starting
point.
I've used that once I wentindependent.
Sidney Evans (33:44):
I just recently I actually last week I'm doing my
first tape sync and I was likeI've never done, I don't know
what to charge.
And and they were like, uh,what's the?
Uh, I'll just play with it, paywhatever, like the rate, the
industry rate is.
And I was able to look it upand see what it was and and they
were like, okay, well, that's,that's, that sounds good to us.
(34:05):
So, um, those starting off, ifyou want, just want to get in
the ball part where you'rereally trying to make the
transition from doing stuff forcheap to, you know, stuff that's
more sustainable, definitelytake advantage of those, like I
said, airmedia, podpeople andjust Google.
There's a lot of little, Iguess, communities or sites or
(34:25):
resources out there to where youcan be informed about that type
of stuff.
John Asante (34:30):
Yeah, and this goes back to connections.
Like I talked to my connectionsand said, hey, yo, what should
I charge?
What am I worth?
And even if you don't havethose connections, I feel like a
lot of folks in the audioindustry, especially those
who've worked for companies, areusually pretty friendly about
cold emails or call, not calls,I should say cold LinkedIn's
(34:51):
emails.
I've fielded plenty of them.
I mean, honestly, it's a matterof just putting it out there
and see who comes back.
Sometimes people don't get back, for whatever reason, but those
are the folks who can.
You can also ask like thisshould be, like hey, I'm just
trying to get to the point wherepeople pay me, what do you
think I should charge?
Like, what are the rates here?
Um, just to get an extra senseof what's going on, Okay, to
(35:15):
transition a little bit.
Sidney Evans (35:16):
So you worked in public radio, started working
for podcast production companiesand then you made the venture
to do that independently.
But I want you to speak on that, like maybe I guess some were
some of the challenges andtakeaways from that.
And then also I saw yourLinkedIn profile too, and you
mentioned it a couple of timesabout mentoring, up and comers
and things like that.
(35:37):
And then also I saw yourLinkedIn profile too, and you
mentioned it a couple of timesabout mentoring, up and comers
and things like that.
What do you get out ofmentoring and do you suggest
others do it as well?
John Asante (35:46):
Going independent was a huge undertaking.
It was honestly something thatI was incredibly afraid of for
my entire career.
I had heard so many horrorstories of folks doing freelance
pieces or production pieces forcompanies and having to chase
down payroll and they're like amI going to make rent and what's
(36:10):
out there?
And it's changed quite a bit.
I would say pre-sealed orpost-serial, and just as the
podcast industry has evolved,it's really changed a lot where
the freelance market, thecontract market, is different.
But I think the biggestundertakings for me were like
one how do I keep a sense oflike constant work coming
through?
Because there were like one ortwo projects I worked on were
(36:32):
very much freelance, where theywere like hey, we're going to
have you work on this like acouple hours a week here and
there.
You just invoice us when you'reready or you've hit a point or
finished this episode, and so itwas really sporadic.
Some weeks it'd be five hours,some weeks it'd be 15.
But most of the stuff, the vastmajority of the stuff I do, is
on contract.
(36:52):
So these are like two, three,six, nine-month gigs, sometimes
even a year, and I'm trying tokeep at least a couple going at
a time.
So I think, because I had beenpaid biweekly my entire career,
even as far back as my first jobat Burger King when I was 15, I
was used to getting a paycheckevery other week, no matter how
much or how little.
It was, resetting my mindset tothen be like, okay, you got to
(37:15):
save some money and know thatyou may not get paid for like a
month or two because of the waythings go and the way that
companies pay, and that's okay.
You're going to have somemonths where you're making a
bank and some months where itlooks like you're in the red.
So that was one of the biggestundertakings.
Number two was just trying tofigure out how do I do this all
financially.
What do I need to set up?
I talked to folks about whetheror not I should set up an LLC.
(37:38):
They said yes, for a fewpurposes, a few reasons, my rate
.
How do I figure that out?
Just like I went through thesame thing that we just talked
about figuring out how to do mytaxes as an independent producer
, contractor, small businessowner, finally having to hire an
accountant for that, which iscrazy and I'm like dang.
(38:02):
And it makes you really realizehow much comes out of taxes.
Because when you're a full-timeemployee, I don't think most of
us really think about it.
We're like, all right, cool,we're just seeing what the net
worth is, how much we're makingnet.
But now when you're acontractor, it's like 30%.
You know, make sure you can payfor your medical bills and like
your yourself, how do you payyourself?
But also keep stuff for later,your overhead and thankfully in
(38:25):
an industry like this, youroverhead should be pretty low,
Like we're not.
You know, subscriptions, maybesome gear here and there, bit of
travel.
And then it was like I thinkanother undertaking or
experience I went through islike, how do I keep these gigs
consistent?
Like, how am I reaching out tocompanies?
How vocal do I need to be aboutlike shouting from the rooftops
(38:48):
saying, hey, I'm looking forwork.
How do I work on my connectionsto then lead to gigs?
Cause it's kind of like so alot of these are long games.
Like it's changed and I willsay my situation is atypical in
a way.
I mean, yes, everybody'ssituation doing the independent
thing, small business thing isdifferent, but mine is atypical
in that and I will be prettyfrank, and I said this when I
(39:11):
finally announced this likepublicly to my friends.
A year into doing it, I was sonervous that it was going to
fail.
Was that when I left my lastjob at Pineapple Street Studios
in 2022,?
I left with a lot of skills,knowing how to balance multiple
projects as a showrunner,knowing a lot of people in the
industry.
But also, I'm married.
I have a wife who has afull-time job.
I have medical benefits throughher, so I didn't have to worry
(39:32):
about that.
We were able to pay the rent onthe house we were renting at
the time pretty easily becausewe had double income coming in.
I had a good amount of the gearI needed already set up, like
the recording gear I have.
I'd already bought my full-timejob.
I also was able to save a goodchunk of money before I went
(39:53):
independent and I was able to.
Really, I went with like a fourmonth plan, going like okay, I'm
going to aim to leave at thispoint, but if at the earliest,
but I will stay around in thisjob until I need to.
And I came out the gate beinglike I'm not just going to jump
and leave and just try to figureit out.
I want to leave with like oneor two gigs secured and at the
(40:13):
time, in 2022, this is likeApril I ended up landing At the
time in 2022, this is like April.
I ended up landing like I gotlike offers for three contract
gigs straight up and I was verylucky.
I feel very fortunate.
I took two of those, One ofthose just time-wise.
I was like I can't do everythingand I was at a very fortunate
point where I had too much workcoming in that I couldn't do and
(40:34):
I didn't want.
I was not at the point where Iwanted the subcontract.
I thought that was going to bekind of messy.
I wasn't planning to make myown company like a production
company at the level of, likePineapple Street Studios or, you
know, Gimlet or a network orwhatever.
Like that was not my ambition.
If anything, I was so stressedin my last job that I was
thinking like, okay, if there'sa way for me to like spread out
the work a bit and maybe not bemanaging folks at the same time,
(40:56):
maybe that's better for myhealth.
Um, and so those, those are theexperiences I went through and
those are the big undertakings.
But, um, it's been a trip.
I mean, no, two days are thesame.
Um, it's the.
I think the benefit of beingindependent is that it's allowed
me to really kind of test outdifferent places to work.
Um, not to say that when I waslike frustrated at my last job
(41:16):
and looking for another job,that I had my choice of where to
go, I wouldn't say that yeah,sure, I did some interviews here
and there, but I was like, isthe grass really going to be
greener on the other side if Igo to another company?
But now, as an independentproducer or contractor, I've
worked with at least 10 othercompanies and you start to get
(41:37):
the inner workings of how thesecompanies work.
Sure, contractors andfreelancers to some extent are
treated differently thanfull-time employees, but at
least you get to kind of knowthe nature of their inner
workings, like how they runstuff you know.
So, in the event, if I ever didget hired by a company or went
to try and apply for a full-timejob later or do more work, then
(41:58):
I know what I'm getting into.
And then going to the mentoringpart, I actually have done quite
a bit of mentoring when I was afull-time employee, partly
because a lot of the companies Iwork for were like hey, we
bring in interns.
Interns are part of thelifeblood of our company,
especially at NPR, when they hadan internship program which,
(42:22):
unfortunately, I think theydiscontinued because of some
budget cuts, which I'm verydisappointed in, because a good
amount of the staff were internsat some point, including myself
, even before me, but I would bementoring interns constantly,
Like every semester.
There was like there were newinterns coming in.
Uh, you know, I wascontributing, helping them out,
Cause people would help me outtoo in the three internships
that I did and um, and I washelping them just make
(42:44):
connections, literally learn howto cut tape, uh, how to write
better, everything, and uh, nowand then getting into, like,
doing this all online during thepandemic, or even people in
different States.
I was able to figure out how totranslate those skills online.
It was a little trickier, but Idid it.
And now, working independently,I still do some mentoring,
(43:05):
especially with the folks thatI've already established
relationships with in my pastjobs.
Those are the ones who I'm notnecessarily going to charge per
se, getting back some money fordifferent skills, but they do
know that, like they know whatI'm worth and if, if it came to
that, they would, Um, but thisway of giving back.
Now, as an independent person,it I had to strike a balance
(43:27):
between how much do I can I dophysically and how much do I
want to do.
You know, in terms of my work,like I got to put on my, like
what's the thing with when youfly?
It's like you got to put onyour oxygen mask before someone
else's.
You know, I still like to do it.
It's just a matter of when isit possible?
(43:48):
And not necessarily what am Igetting out of it, but really,
like, legit, when is it possible?
And I think I've been able todo that in some ways here and
there, especially for folksreaching out, who are also going
independent, who may be earlierin their career.
I've done that with a few folksand that's been great to just
sit down with them and be like,hey, I'm going to just straight
up tell you what it's like andhow much it's evolved, how much
(44:10):
it's changed and what you shoulddo.
And it feels really goodbecause a lot of the folks I'm
doing this for actually at thispoint, I committed myself to do
this like five years ago.
I'm like I'm only, I don't carewho thinks this is like weird or
whatever.
I don't think for this podcastthey will, Cause you're
interviewing black men, women,black people in the industry.
But, like years ago, I was likeI'm only giving advice to black
(44:32):
and brown folks, people frommarginalized communities, LGBTQ
community, Like because I saw somany folks who, like maybe I
gave a little bit of advice toum who were white, make leaps
and bounds, sometimes even pastme, and I was like this is the
same right.
You know, like I gotta behelping these folks who are,
like, not as well represented inthis, who may be doing this at
(44:52):
a hobby level, a passion level,who really want to get to doing
this as at professional level aswell, that may not have the ins
, that may not have been able toget an NPR or a production
company.
That's where I'm at.
It's been really empowering forme.
I just want to see the industrygrow and I want to see more
people like us in there.
Sidney Evans (45:11):
Yeah, I mean that was the main motivation for the
podcast, because I mean, like,you know, um, we, we are, we are
a minority and you know, asoptimistic and as skillful as
you may be, um, you know whenmaybe the opportunities aren't
coming as as and as abundantlyas you would like.
(45:33):
You know.
So it kind of always comes up tointo your mind, it's like
especially when you're activelylike applying to things here,
and it just kind of always comesup to into your mind, is like
especially when you're activelylike applying to things you're,
and it just kind of keeps you inthe head like man, if I, my
skin color was different, likewould it be a little easier.
Like it's just hard not to, youknow, ask yourself that.
But then you kind of gotta, uh,you know, push it forward and
you know, continue with, youknow, forging ahead, like you
(45:54):
know so, and especially duringduring this time, like it's like
okay, once you commit to it,you got to see it through, like,
no matter what waves of emotion, um, that you may, you may
experience, that you know, onceyou decide like, whatever
happens, I'm just gonna keepgoing, you do that.
So, as far as the mentor thing,before we jump into the last,
like which is kind of more rapidfire and general questions.
(46:17):
If someone's listening to thisand was like, okay, I want to
have one takeaway that I canapply to my career, what would
you like them to walk away with?
John Asante (46:29):
If you have the idea and the passion for it,
just do it.
Go for it.
For anybody I talked to who'slike I want to make a podcast,
and they've been thinking on it,mulling over it, for months,
maybe years.
I've been there before.
I'm like just take a shot, takea shot at it, do it, even if
you're doing it as a passionproject or a hobby.
You never know what it couldlead to.
(46:50):
I've seen plenty of people dothat and now they have full-time
jobs as audio producers,engineers, sound designers,
editors.
Now they have full-time jobs asaudio producers, engineers,
sound designers, editors.
And it was just because theyhad that self-starting attitude
and just drive to do it on theirown and I think employers like
that.
It's helped me out too.
I think that's probably themost succinct advice I can give.
Sidney Evans (47:14):
I mean, this is what I'm doing.
I've had this idea for this foryears, so I love that advice.
All right, so last, like I said, last portion of the show, and
these are just.
We start off with getting alittle bit more about you as a
person.
Now we're going to end withyour taste and your interest.
So, favorite album of all time.
John Asante (47:34):
God man, you can put me on the spot like that.
Sidney Evans (47:39):
I was like man, man, I could do this.
I tried to lead you in and getyou get your mind going favorite
album of all time like man.
John Asante (47:43):
If this were by genre, I could do it, man.
Um, okay, actually I got one.
This probably is a one allacross the board.
Uh, midnight marauders by tribecalled quest okay, I haven't.
Sidney Evans (47:54):
Obviously I know who tribe called quest is, but I
haven't.
A lot of times, like I gothrough these phases of where
I'm introduced, not introduced,well, like I'm aware of the
group, the artists, producer,whatever, and you know, I kind
of I've heard the stuff thatplays on the radio, like the
real popular stuff, but then atsome point I go down that road
of, okay, I'm gonna go listen toeverything they've done and
(48:16):
really appreciate it, you know,be able to consume it for what
it is.
And I actually was.
There was a movie me and mygirlfriend just watched it.
It was the Sonali, the WesleySnipes.
I forgot the name of the movie,but Q-Tip was in it because she
was like a singer and they wereworking together.
And I think that was a signbecause I watched that and then
you just mentioned that.
So I think I need to go listento, like all tribe stuff.
(48:42):
Yes and yes, yes.
John Asante (48:43):
And really, you know, give them their flowers
for for what they have done.
Sidney Evans (48:45):
Okay, um so next favorite producer, hip-hop army
producer.
Well, I guess it doesn't haveto be just black favorite are?
John Asante (48:51):
you talking about music producer or music producer
?
Yes, oh, I think I gotta saypharrell pharrell yeah, oh,
always been a fan from, from, uh, the neptunes, but oh my god, I
mean the neptunes.
So many of those beats justlike remind, like, just like
mark my childhood and my and myteen years from the neptunes to
(49:13):
nerd, to clips.
Oh my god, love what they'vedone.
God Love what he's done withClipse and just so many artists
afterward.
I just think he's incrediblytalented and creative.
Sidney Evans (49:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Can I go wrong with Pharrell?
John Asante (49:28):
Yeah, okay, next Favorite film score or
soundtrack Ooh, favorite filmscore or soundtrack I want to go
toward.
Oh my God, I'm trying to thinkif it's a Spike Lee movie and
I'm completely forgetting whichone it is.
Oh my God, is it?
Do the Right Thing.
I think I got to say Do theRight Thing, yeah, yep, do the
(49:50):
Right Thing, yep.
Sidney Evans (49:51):
Okay, and last favorite TV theme song.
John Asante (49:57):
Oh man, this is a good one, Cause I'm like I've
been hitting this nostalgiapoint.
Oh man, I feel like it'sbetween the fresh Prince and,
weirdly enough, family mattersFamily matters.
Sidney Evans (50:08):
Those are the I'm like and one of the episodes
that I just recently put out,cause most people so far have
said fresh Prince, yeah, but Ididn't want to say Fresh Prince,
so I said Family Mattersbecause that's like the most TV
theme songy I could think of.
But then later on I startedthinking of older ones like
(50:29):
Sanford and Son and Jeffersonsand stuff like that.
John Asante (50:32):
Yeah, when they tell the plot of the show in the
theme song, which is not athing anymore.
Yeah, tell the plot of the, ofthe, the show in the theme song
which is not a thing anymore,you know, or?
Sidney Evans (50:39):
yeah, they don't.
They just try to make it asshort as possible.
John Asante (50:43):
Now get get into it and if it is short, like any,
any like netflix or max is likeskip intro.
Yeah, you can skip because theyknow that attention span is
short, so they give you thatoption actually, you know, I
thought of one that really is myfavorite keenan and cal keen,
oh, and Kel, oh, that's a goodone.
Sidney Evans (50:59):
That's a good one.
That's a good one too.
I forgot about those.
John Asante (51:03):
I mean just like Coolio doing Kenan and Kel, and
wasn't all that, was that TLC,it was TLC.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I got to say Kenan and Kelbecause Coolio is just so good
on that.
Oh my God that was that was.
Sidney Evans (51:16):
That was a good, that's a good one, man, I forgot
about that one completely.
All right, yeah, brad, thoseare.
Those are some great, great,great responses, Some new stuff,
some stuff we haven't heard onthe show so far.
But yeah, I think we can wrapup here.
Man, before we hop off, I dowant you to would appreciate if
you could share where we canfind you, connect with you, look
(51:39):
at more.
I know we got into like, theskill itself, but we didn't
mention as much as the actualshows, the things that you
worked on.
So where can they, like youknow, find all that stuff,
listen to it if they would liketo?
If there's anything upcomingthat you would like to promote,
you could take the time to dothat as well.
Sure.
John Asante (51:55):
Yeah, so you can find all the work that I've done
all 30 something podcasts andradio shows on my website,
johnassanticom A-S-A-N-T-E.
That's how you spell it, let'ssee.
Oh, on social media I'm reallyjust on Instagram, I'm at
thejohnassanti T-H-E, johnAssanti, and Twitter, sometimes
(52:17):
at JKBSante, and not really onthe TikTok, though I should
probably get on it.
I'm resisting, not because Idon't like it, just because I
know it's going to suck up mytime.
And then the most recent, mycurrent, I guess, client project
, to put it professionally, witha show I'm producing right now.
It's a show called One Song.
(52:37):
It's a music analysis podcast.
So, if you like, shows likeSong Exploder or Switched On Pop
or Broken Record, it's kind ofin that realm.
So every episode we break downone song from the pop culture
canon from the past 60 years,everything from hip hop to pop
rock, r&b, funk, soul, jazz,disco.
You can see I've rehearsed thisbut we break down the cultural
(53:01):
significance of the song, whyit's important, why you should
listen to it again, and then webreak it down stem by stem, like
the x-ray of the song.
You get to hear the isolateddrums, the vocals, the keyboards
, the anything, and it's it'sjust such a fun show.
I've really enjoyed it.
I've produced episodes on, likeMiley Cyrus' Flowers, the
Weeknd's Can't Feel my Face Gosh.
(53:24):
It's been a bunch, it's amazing.
So, yeah, check it out.
Sidney Evans (53:27):
One song Okay, yeah, I'm very, very curious.
I'm going to have to go checkthat out.
How does that work with, likedoes that fall under fair use?
John Asante (53:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.
That's how I was about to sayOkay.
Sidney Evans (53:44):
I was about to say , cause if y'all, if you want to
just play it, you might have toget it to like public domain,
which is from like 1915 orsomething.
John Asante (53:51):
Yeah.
Sidney Evans (53:52):
Okay, just just just curious Very good question.
John Asante (53:56):
Yeah, fair use.
Fair use is up for it.
Yeah.
Sidney Evans (53:59):
Okay, well, cool man.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat.
I'm going to check that out andif everybody listening, visit
his website and check out theother things stuff as well.
But, like I said, appreciateyou coming on, enjoyed having
you on.
Thanks and for those listening,I'll catch you on the next
episode.
Thank you for joining us ontoday's episode.
(54:22):
Please don't forget tosubscribe to the show and leave
us a review.
If you'd like to work with meor connect, please go to
soundbysitcom and schedule acall there.
You can also check out the fulllist of productions I've worked
on.
If you'd like to connect onsocial media, my handle is
soundbysetcom on Twitter andInstagram and I'm Sidney Evans
(54:44):
on LinkedIn.
Don't forget to follow Beyondthe Threshold on Instagram as
well.
I'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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