November 7, 2024 • 52 mins
This episode of Beyond Your Default dives deep into the intertwined forces of purpose and passion—how each fuels a meaningful life beyond just daily obligations. George and Liz explore how passion acts as the spark, adding energy and excitement to purpose-driven work, while purpose provides the steady direction. But passion alone isn’t enough; unchecked, it can lead to burnout. Together, George and Liz emphasize the importance of harmonious passion, balanced engagement without compulsion, and the need for intentional rest to avoid slipping into obsessive territory.
Key Takeaways
Passion Isn’t Infinite—It Needs Structure
Passion gives momentum, but without rest and boundaries, it can lead to burnout. Intentional pauses and balance fuel sustainable energy, avoiding the trap of “too much of a good thing.”
Harmonious vs. Obsessive Passion
Harmonious passion allows joyful engagement without overwhelming life. Obsessive passion, however, brings stress, and disrupts other aspects of well-being. Balance between dedication and detachment is crucial for long-term fulfillment.
Purpose is the Compass; Passion is the Fire
Purpose guides, passion energizes. Purpose without passion can feel like homework, but passion without purpose can lead to burnout or lack of direction.
Give Yourself Grace—Life is About Exploration
Discovering passion isn’t a one-time epiphany. It’s about staying curious and allowing passions to evolve over time. Embrace the moments of flow and joy, but remember that rest and self-awareness are key to sustaining those passions.
Memorable Quotes
“Passion and purpose aren’t separate—they’re two sides of the same coin. Purpose gives direction; passion provides the fuel.”
“Rest isn’t the opposite of passion; it’s the fuel that keeps the fire burning strong.”
“If you’re running on just purpose, life can feel heavy. If you’re running on just passion, you can lose direction.”
Reflective Questions
Are you balancing passion with intentional rest and structure?
How do you differentiate between harmonious and obsessive passion in your own life?
What steps can you take to ensure your purpose and passion align for a balanced, fulfilling journey?
Subscribe to the Beyond Your Default newsletter for more insights, stories, and tools to help you build a life beyond the ordinary!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
George B. Thomas (00:03):
My passion for making a difference that keeps
me coming back over and overweek after week after week. It
keeps me fired up and ready togo episode after episode after
after episode. So purpose mightbe the reason I do this, but
passion is what brings theenergy and enthusiasm that I
need to keep at it over and overagain. And, like, it doesn't
(00:24):
matter because if it was oneperson, right, the mathematics
of 1, 1 person, 1 episode, 1change, then it that's worth it.
But that's because the passionis the enthusiasm to do that, to
keep creating, to keep sharing,to keep pushing forward.
And let's be real. Like, thereare days when purpose alone
might not be enough to get youthrough. And that's where
(00:45):
passion steps in. Passionreminds you of the joy. Passion
reminds you of the excitement ofthe thrill of being on a journey
that freaking truly matters.
And I think this is why so manypeople struggle when they feel
disconnected from either theirpurpose or their passion. Get
your notepad ready because ifyou're just running on purpose,
(01:06):
life can start to feel heavy andthings can start to feel like
obligations. If you're runningon just passion without purpose,
it's easy to get burned out ordefinitely lose direction. So
purpose and passion worktogether to give us both
direction and momentum.
Liz Moorhead (01:27):
Welcome back to Beyond Your Default. I'm your
host, Liz Morehead. And asalways, I'm joined by the one
and only George b Thomas. AndGeorge, I gotta be perfectly
honest before I welcome you toyour own show.
George B. Thomas (01:36):
Oh, wow.
Liz Moorhead (01:37):
This is one of the first episodes where you haven't
either teased me or somethingabout the topic that we're gonna
be talking about today, andsomehow the silence is even more
concerning. So I'm just gonnathrow that out there.
George B. Thomas (01:50):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (01:50):
We'll throw that out there. But why don't we why
don't we just start with ourusual what's your highlight and
your lowlight for the week, bud?
George B. Thomas (01:56):
Hoo. Man. So highlight, I think, is probably
the fact that I am reallyenjoying this AI content
creation journey. And the reasonI'm bringing that up is because
I started to create somethingspecial around Beyond Your
(02:17):
Default and the personal growthside specifically, but also just
leaning into, like, what we'rebuilding with the superhuman
framework, along with BeyondYour Default and the human side
and AI side, and dare I say,Liz, the highlight and and a key
piece in my brain is thisconversation around
(02:39):
collaboration. Collaborationwith AI, collaboration with
humans.
That's my highlight. It's justthat little, twinkle in my mind
lately. The low light, I don'tknow if I necessarily have a
deep, dark, oh my god,existential crisis. But I will
say the low light is I don'tknow if I necessarily have been
(03:02):
taking enough time for melately. Doing all the
collaborations, you know, yougotta pay attention to the well,
yeah, self care.
It's funny because as we areprepping for this episode, one
of the things I'm gonna mentionin is my family. But as I was
prepping, I was like, oh, but Ihaven't done what I'm about to
(03:23):
talk about in a while.
Liz Moorhead (03:25):
And I gotta be honest with you, George. We have
a check-in episode coming up ina few episodes, so you might
before teacher figures it out.
George B. Thomas (03:34):
I might yeah. So I need to I need to refocus a
little bit on actually takingsome time to just be still, be
me and chill instead of all theworks. But, yeah, that's my
lowlights and highlights. Liz,what about you this week?
Liz Moorhead (03:48):
I will admit, I was thinking about this this
morning as I was getting mymorning copy, that my lowlight
is I have is a recognition thatI have done a terrible job of
taking any time for myself.
George B. Thomas (04:01):
Oh, hey.
Liz Moorhead (04:02):
No. George, think
George B. Thomas (04:03):
that rhyming.
Liz Moorhead (04:03):
When was the last time I ever took a vacation
since we started workingtogether?
George B. Thomas (04:07):
I don't know if you have, actually.
Liz Moorhead (04:10):
Yeah. I have this tendency to take trips but
continue to work. And this issomething I noticed was a was a
big problem. I haven't hit anysort of burnout. I haven't hit
any sort of threshold, but thereis some sort of guilt wrapped
around the idea of steppingaway.
Yeah. And I haven't figured thatout yet because, yeah, I had the
(04:31):
same realization you did becauseI I was like, well, I've taken
trips, but I'm always available,and I'm always working. I'm
always and so that for me was alow light in that as much as I
like to sit here and wag thefinger at you, I have been
criminally bad at being justLiz, the human, and then
wondering why sometimes I feellittle fractures in my
creativity. You know? If youwanna become a better creative
(04:53):
or a better writer in my case,go live life.
George B. Thomas (04:56):
Oh, yeah.
Liz Moorhead (04:56):
If you're constantly chained to your
chained to your desk, you're notliving. And so that was
something I'm trying to bemindful because I just had my
birthday a couple of weeks ago,and I've been thinking mindfully
about, you know, what do I wantmy 42nd into 43rd year to look
like. And the thing I am reallylooking for is I have moved out
of survival mode. Right? And Idid a lot of work to get where I
(05:17):
am, and I'm very proud of how Igot myself here.
Was it always pretty? No. It wasmessy. It was bloody. We made
some mistakes along the way, butwhat got me here isn't going to
get me where I'm going.
And so it's making that shiftof, okay, now that we're out of
the mud, where do I want to go?How do I actually start living?
So I'd say that was a low light.Highlight is I've been able to
(05:40):
actually stay with a best friendof mine over the past few days.
She also works for herself.
We do the same work, and justgetting to see her kids has been
great. I've been a human junglegym pretty much. As soon as I
clock out as soon as I clock outaround 6 o'clock every day, I
got kids all over me, and that'sjust always good. You know? I
think I don't really wanna diginto current events, but I think
(06:01):
whenever I seek children, I feela lot of hope for the future.
Like, there's just such thisbeautiful optimism about them.
Just being around unabashed kidjoy is just so soothing because
I think as adults, we forget howto play. We forget what lights
our fires, which actually getsus into today's topic because
(06:23):
last episode, we talked aboutthe first cornerstone of the
superhuman framework. Right? Andthe superhuman framework, we
went through the 10 h's, thedaily habits and qualities we
cultivate to live a life beyondour default.
But the cornerstones, likepurpose and now the conversation
we're going to have today,passion, these are the things
that give us the emotional andmotivational foundation to apply
(06:44):
those habits effectively in ourlives. Right? Because you can
have humor and humanity andholiness and all these things.
But if you don't have purposegiving you direction, if you
don't have passion lighting youup, you're just kind of going
through them. You're busy.
You're not productive. So that'swhat we're talking about today.
Right? We're talking aboutpassion. Now, is passion really
(07:05):
that big of a deal?
I am not asking thatrhetorically. I'm someone who
likes to ask questions. I thinkfor me, I wanted to know the
answer to this question becausesometimes I wonder, are we just
chasing a high that doesn'treally exist? The reality is,
though, is that passion isactually kind of a big deal. So
research shows that individualswith high levels of work passion
are more likely to reportengagement, vitality, and
(07:27):
productivity in their roles.
It improves their taskperformance, and it makes them
feel more satisfied in theirjobs as opposed to those who
lack satisfaction or passion fortheir work. However, despite the
push for passion in careerpaths, and I think this is
something we've seen a lot inpost pandemic life where people
have continued to redefine, doyou work to live or do you live
(07:48):
to work? Where are you actuallyputting those energy hours?
Right? But despite this push,only about 13% of employees
globally feel genuinelypassionate about what they do.
Most people say that they do notfeel an alignment between the
work that they do and thepersonal values that they hold.
But, obviously, work is not theonly place that we see passion.
Right? So engaging in nonworkpassions significantly boost
(08:10):
well-being and life satisfactionregardless as to whether or not
those passions are tied to yourjob. 52% of people who dedicate
time to a creative hobby orpassion report enhanced problem
solving skills and creativethinking in other areas of our
life.
So it not only makes us feelmore fulfilled, we become better
problem solvers. We become morementally acute and engaged in
(08:32):
our own lives. So today, that'swhat we're doing, George. We're
exploring what it means to livewith passion, how to reconnect
with your inner fire when itfeels dim or if it was ever lit
in the first place, and knowingthe difference between true
passion and fleeting excitement.You excited to dig into this?
George B. Thomas (08:51):
I am. I I think it's gonna be a a very
interesting conversation.
Liz Moorhead (08:55):
Let's start with you, George. You know, I love to
always start you with asoftball.
George B. Thomas (08:59):
The guinea pig. Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (09:01):
The guinea. Hi. It's okay. I know you always get
me back, but I would love tohear from you what your journey
has been like for you indiscovering your own passions,
and what should that path ofdiscovery look like for others?
Because discovering what youlove is not easy.
George B. Thomas (09:15):
Yeah. No. It's definitely not an easy button,
but it's it's definitely needed.When it comes to discovering my
own passion, Liz, it's it's beenthis let's just say it's been a
real journey. One full oftwists, turns, definitely
unexpected stops, and I wouldeven say the occasional smack in
the face where it's like youhave these wake up moments.
(09:36):
And and we've talked about someof those on previous podcast
episodes of my life. But, youknow, I can I can remember in my
younger days, like, I used tothink that passion was supposed
to be this big, like, dramaticmoment where everything suddenly
clicked into place, like, youknow, and fireworks are going
off, and it's like this magicalmoment? But, honestly, for me,
(09:57):
it's been a lot more likepeeling back layers to reveal
what really lights me up, in mysoul, in my core, in in, like,
the depth of who I am as as ahuman. You know, it's been a
slow build sometimes and onethat's kind of taught me that
passion isn't just about thisexcitement or this excited
(10:18):
feeling, but it it really is, atleast the passion that I think
we should be looking for alongthis beyond your default journey
is it's about depth. It's aboutconnection.
It's the things that pull youback that make you wanna keep
showing up. And especially whenthings get tough, and I don't I
don't wanna get into persistenceyet. That's a that's another
(10:40):
episode. But when things gettough and you've got that
purpose and you've got thepassion, you know, one of the
big passions I've shared on thispodcast before, and I think
maybe the reason for the podcastis I'm passionate about helping
others. That's been a constantfor me, whether I was being a
blessing bomber after I learnedabout that at the church with
(11:02):
pastor Dave.
And we've talked about that,like, in in historical podcast.
But even, like, if you look atthe superhuman framework, what
is the core essence of that?Well, to help others. And if I
look at my past list, lifeguard,rappelling instructor, pastor,
riding instructor, HubSpot hero,like, what what am I doing every
(11:22):
single time? I'm helping others.
And, again, I list all thosethings out, but it isn't just
about the roles. It's about thiskind of inner drive that I have
to make a difference. I wannamake a difference. I talk about
the ripples. I wanna be able togive people the tools, the best
practices, the mindsets, thehacks, the whatever you wanna
call it to improve their lives.
(11:44):
Like, this is what I'mpassionate about. This is what I
keep coming back to again andagain and again, and it's what
makes me feel like I'm doingmeaningful work or being a
meaningful human to the otherhumans around me because I I
wanna make an impact. I wanna bea catalyst. That's a passion
(12:04):
that's been both rewarding andhumbling at the same time
because, Liz, it pushes me to behonest. It pushes me to listen,
to really understand what peopleneed, and then do my best to
deliver.
Now, I just said that towardsme. What I would want the
listeners to understand is itwill push you. Your passion,
(12:25):
your true passion will push youto be honest with yourself, to
listen to yourself and thosearound you, to need, and then do
your best to deliver that thingfor them that you're passionate
about. Another passion that'sdeeply rooted in my life is self
growth. Again, why are we onthis podcast?
(12:48):
Why have we gone through thetrenches in the last, like, plus
year? I mean, listen. We've hadgood talks about this before,
but I'm always diving into selfreflection. I'm analyzing my
past experiences, and and I'mdigging into the big whys of my
life. And I would ask thelisteners, like, are you digging
(13:09):
into the whys?
Liz you literally, in thebeginning of this, like, I
haven't taken a vacation. Why?Like, why am what am I choosing
to do and why in the future as Igo from the 42 to the 43? Right?
This is a big reason I talkabout living beyond your default
in general, by the way.
On this podcast, I've seen howeasy it is to get stuck in
(13:32):
routines that don't serve us andthese routines that keep us from
becoming who we could be. And soI'm passionate about self growth
because self growth is more thana hobby for me. It's a passion
that drives me to keepchallenging myself, challenging
others to try new things, and tosee just how far I or we as a
(13:54):
group can go. And so it's aboutbecoming something greater than
we ever thought possible becauseof the purpose and the passion
aligning and us running with it.The last thing I'm gonna mention
in this section, and I kind ofalluded to this at the beginning
of the podcast, is my family.
They're honestly one of mybiggest passions. I've shared
(14:17):
stories, here about being a dadand a husband. My passion for my
family isn't just about spendingtime with them. They they drive
me to be a better person. Like,I know without them, I am not
the George that I am right now.
And whether it's taking, youknow, one of my daughters or one
of my sons out for, like, a oneon one dinner or to a movie or
(14:41):
just showing up to love andsupport them or stepping out of
my comfort zone for, like, agirl day or a spa day or you
know? And listen. I've talkedabout the nail salon before. I'm
not hiding from it. We youmentioned self care.
I think that's a great way forself care.
Liz Moorhead (14:56):
You know, I'd love that for you. I'd love that for
you. It makes me so happy foryou. But Get that massage.
George B. Thomas (15:02):
Yeah. But but here's the thing. Like, when it
comes to my family and thepassion for my family, I'm in it
heart and soul. Right? Because Iunderstand that my family is my
anchor, the the source of somuch joy, and I would even say,
like, a level of resilience.
And it's not just the smallstuff, by the way. Like, listen,
hiring them, giving them spaceto grow and find their paths,
(15:24):
seeing them become their futureselves is, like, one of my
greatest joys I know. And trustme, it's not always easy. Like,
your passion can also havestruggle points. But, look, I I
don't wanna make it sound likeit's just, like, oh, fantastic
magical thing becausediscovering what you're
(15:44):
passionate about, like, meunderstanding those three things
and being able to talk aboutthem today, they weren't always
known, and it wasn't alwayssimple to be able to communicate
that.
For anyone listening to thispodcast, if you're if you're
trying to find your ownpassions, like, here's what I
would say. It's okay if it's notsome huge moment. I go back to,
(16:08):
like, the fireworks and youcould start by exploring what
makes you feel connected tosomething on a deep level, even
if it's like this tiniest ofsmall spark, this quiet feeling,
right, rather than thosefireworks that we think that
passion needs to be. Listen.I'll never forget this moment I
had at an event in Californiafor a business I started called
(16:30):
graphics for worship.
This is years years years ago.And I was standing there selling
this company, and all of asudden I had goosebumps, like
this goosebump moment where Irealized that so many of the
jobs I had had, honestly, it waslike 6 or 7 of them, that all of
a sudden I saw them all alignwith what I was doing right
then, right there in that space.And it was like, oh. So I was
(16:54):
able to get an moment, but itwas because of these small steps
along the way that when themoment came and I saw the
alignment, I was like, oh, thisis who I'm being set up to be.
This is why I'm passionate aboutthese things.
Oh, this leans into thispurpose. And it was like seeing
the stars of my own life lineup. And by the way, I love and
(17:18):
live for those moments when Ifeel like it's all connected and
you start to see the reason forwhy things are happening. So you
don't have to have it allfigured out right away. What I
would beg you to to do as youmove forward on this topic and
with this framework or just eventhis just one element of your
life is keep paying attention towhat sparks your curiosity and
(17:42):
what, the things that make youfeel more alive.
Because passion and the passionsthat you have will change, and
they'll grow just like we do ashumans. And the the things that
I'm passionate about now weren'talways the same, and that's
okay. So you have to giveyourself the freedom to keep
exploring. But this is why Italk about curiosity in life.
(18:04):
You have to keep showing up, andwe'll talk about resilience in
another episode.
And remember, finding what youlove, what you're passionate
about, what gives you energy,it's an ongoing journey.
Liz Moorhead (18:17):
So in our last episode, you talked a lot about
how purpose can feel like acompass guiding us. Right?
Showing us what the direction isand then keeping us on course if
we fall off the path. And thenyou've talked about passion,
which can sometimes feel like afire driving us. So I'd love to
hear how in your experience,purpose and passion work
(18:37):
together to create this moremeaningful life that we're
looking for.
George B. Thomas (18:41):
First of all, I love that we're looking for a
meaningful life because theopposite is not really something
worth chasing. And and I lovethis conversation around the
connection, Right? Theconnective tissue, if you will,
between purpose and passion andkind of how they work together
to create this life beyond yourdefault or meaningful life that
(19:01):
you're you're trying to do. I dolike to think of purpose as the
why behind everything we do.It's that guiding star.
You mentioned compass, but,like, you know, guiding star
that gives us direction,especially when we end up, and
we always do, on paths that feela little unclear or a little
rocky. Purpose tells us wherewe're headed. And for me, it's
(19:25):
kind of been like this steady,unwavering force helping us
helping me make decisions thatalign with the core values or or
the vision for what matters inmy life. Now for everybody,
that's gonna be different. But Ido want you to kind of pay
attention to this idea of valuesand vision for what matters most
(19:49):
in your life.
That's the piece that I wouldwant you to pull out when it
comes around purpose. Forpassion, on the other hand, it's
again, I've mentioned it acouple times. It's that spark.
It's the energy that gets usmoving. It's the excitement, the
drive, the fire that keeps usgoing even when things get
tough.
It's it's what makes us wannafollow that purpose, to actually
(20:11):
pursue what matters, and to notdo what a lot of us have
probably done and what a lot ofhumans do a lot of times, and
that is to just talk about it orjust think about it, but not to
do about it. Right? And the ideahere with passion is it's it's
about the doing. For me, passionis what makes purpose come
(20:31):
alive. It's the fuel thattransforms purpose from an idea,
a thought, a thing that I mighttalk about into something that I
actually start to live out on adaily basis, weekly basis,
monthly, but I'm living it out.
In my own experience, these two,purpose and passion, I I
(20:51):
literally look at this as theyaren't separate things, but so
many people, and I personallylooked at them for years as
separate things, I do want youto envision them as two sides of
the same coin. Like, take thispodcast, for example, or even
the superhuman framework thatwe're talking about and building
out. My purpose here is to helppeople grow. Right? This
(21:11):
podcast, that's my purpose, tocome and tell stories, to do
research, to have conversationswith Liz so to help people grow.
By the way, one of those peopleis me. Another one of those
people is Liz. The other people,you, yeah, listening. But people
to grow and to equip them withthe tools, the tactics, the
hacks, strategies for a betterlife. But it's my passion for
(21:34):
seeing real change, my passionfor making a difference that
keeps me coming back over andover week after week after week.
It keeps me fired up and readyto go episode after episode
after episode. So purpose mightbe the reason I do this, but
passion is what brings theenergy and enthusiasm that I
need to keep at it over and overagain. And, like, it doesn't
(21:56):
matter because if it was oneperson, right, the mathematics
of 1. One person, 1 episode, onechange, then it that's worth it.
But that's because the passionis the enthusiasm to do that, to
keep creating, to keep sharing,to keep pushing forward.
And let's be real. Like, thereare days when purpose alone
might not be enough to get youthrough, and that's where
(22:17):
passion steps in. Passionreminds you of the joy. Passion
reminds you of the excitement ofthe thrill of being on a journey
that freaking truly matters. AndI think this is why so many
people struggle when they feeldisconnected from either their
purpose or their passion.
Like, get your notepad readybecause if you're just running
(22:38):
on purpose, life can start tofeel heavy and things can start
to feel like obligations. Ifyou're running on just passion
without purpose, it's easy toget burned out or definitely
lose direction. So, purpose andpassion work together to give us
both direction and momentum.Purpose gives us the road map
(23:00):
and passion keeps us moving,helping us embrace the journey
with all its ups and downs, thehills and valleys. And and when
these 2 aren't individual, likeI just mentioned a second ago,
when they're in sync, not theband.
By the way, much more of aBackstreet Boys fan than in
sync, but that's not why we'rehere. When when they're in sync,
(23:21):
that's when we feel like we'renot just existing. But as
humans, because we have ourpurpose and our passion, we're
truly living. And and, dare Isay, living a life beyond our
default. But, Liz, I'm supercurious because I get to throw
questions back in your cornerevery now and then.
Like, what are your thoughtshere just in general of the
(23:42):
question, but also based off ofwhat I've kind of shared?
Liz Moorhead (23:45):
There are a couple of things that you've said so
far that have really stuck outto me. And one of the most
important things you said isthat if you're waiting for this
big moment of what your passionsare, you're gonna, my brothers
and sisters, Christ, you'regonna be waiting forever. Right?
Like, that's not how any of thisworks. I think sometimes we go
out into this world, and we havethis assumption of there's
already a predetermined answer.
(24:06):
There is no act of curiosity ordiscovery. And I also think that
a lot of people when they'regoing out, whether we're talking
about purpose or passion becauseyou're to your point, they're
two sides of the same coin.Right? There is an assumption
there's only one answer. Thereis an assumption that that
answer won't change or evolveover.
I love what you said there aboutpurpose. If you're just leaning
(24:27):
weighted too heavily on thepurpose side, then life feels
like homework. You're just outthere every day. I am a cog in
the machine. I have a purpose,and it doesn't light me up.
Like, one of the things I loveto talk with my clients about,
on the marketing side of what Ido is that are we here to solve
real problems or imagined ones?
George B. Thomas (24:47):
Yes.
Liz Moorhead (24:48):
And when I think about passion, I then ask
myself, okay. If we're solving areal problem, not an imagined
one, am I excited to solve thisproblem? Or some of my favorite
ways to think about it is mypurpose is to be a catalyst for
catalysts. But my passions suchas writing, I know, writing,
storytelling, looking at someoneand helping them see what I
(25:09):
already see in them, those aremy passions, my tools that help
me live and fuel my purpose. Soit's interesting.
I see them as two sides of thesame coin, but I also see
passion as my tool. Right? I getreally passionate about stories.
I get really passionate aboutpeople, and that's what helps me
solve solve the real problems infront of me, which is how do I
(25:31):
help the people who are meant tochange the world? How do I
change their worlds in their ownbackyard?
Like, that is always the problemthat I am trying to solve.
Because the moment I can help acatalyst catch their own vision
is the moment it becomes easierfor them to do it for other
people. So when I think aboutpurpose and passion, they they
go together. You can have apurpose, but if it doesn't
excite you, if it doesn't wakeup some sort of fire in you, I'd
(25:54):
like to use passion as a litmustest. Right?
We're gonna get into this alittle later. Right? Like,
there's a reason why it's calledwork, kids, and that happy fun
time recess explosion, fairextravaganza balloon confetti
cannon. Right? Like, becausesometimes I just yeah.
Because sometimes it just feelslike work, and that's okay. But
I like to use passion as alitmus test in terms of, is this
really my purpose? Is this thepro are these the problems I am
(26:17):
built to solve? Because ifthere's isn't something that
sparks me about it because youand I could go do a lot of
things for a lot of differentpeople. You know, we're a
little, yeah, we're a little bitof a Swiss army knife.
I can go out and solve a lot ofdifferent problems than the one
I'm ones I am choosing to solve,and that's because I am
passionate about these specificproblems. And I have certain
(26:38):
internalized passions that makeme perfectly equipped to solve
these. That's how I view them asworking together for me. So when
I was doing research for thisepisode, I came across something
very interesting that I wannatalk to you about. There's this
idea in psychology of 2different types of passions.
The first is harmonious. Right?Harmonious passion is described
(26:59):
as a balanced, joyful engagementin something we love where we're
able to switch it off and stayin control. Then there's the
second type, which is obsessivepassion, and this is a bit more
intense. It's the drive topursue something we love, but
it's with a sense of compulsionthat can lead to stress or even
conflict with other parts of ourlives.
(27:19):
So I'd love to hear from youwhat your thoughts on these are
and how we recognize thedifference in ourselves. Because
to me, this is something that Ithink that matters, but I'd love
to hear from you.
George B. Thomas (27:31):
This was the question for me when I started
to go through this because sofirst of all yeah. Yeah. Well,
maybe not in the way that you'rethinking right now. Liz, I have
to admit, and listeners, I'madmitting to you right now, I
had no clue about thisharmonious versus obsessive
passion thing until I read theshow notes that you sent over.
(27:52):
Now what I will say about thatis it's been fun to dig into
these two concepts and reflecton how it shows up or how it has
showed up in my life with, like,this new kind of vision.
Because this harmonious versusobsession, it really brings kind
of this, I'll call it, a newlayer of understanding to what
(28:14):
it means to follow something welove, things that I have loved
and followed without letting ittake over everything. And so, by
the way, I'm I'm gonna repeat alittle bit of what you said so
that the listeners don't have torewind because I I wanna break
it down and then move forwardbecause I feel like there might
be a few listeners that aresitting here going, sounds
(28:38):
interesting. Hashtag no clue. Solike you said, this harmonious
passion, it's like thisbalanced, joyful state where you
as the human are fully engagedwith something you love, but it
doesn't run your entire life.That's a very key point in that.
(28:59):
You can show up, you can divein, you can give it your all,
But then when it's time, you canstep back, recharge, and focus
on other things that matter too.As soon as I was, like, getting
to this part and researchingthis part, I started to ask
myself questions like, can I dothat with my work? Can I dive
(29:20):
in, give it my all, and thenstep back and recharge and let
go? I started to ask thatquestion to several key things
in my life because then it helpsme judge if it's harmonious or
not. Right?
The thing, though, it this idea,it's fulfilling because it
integrates well with the rest ofour life. This is why I started
(29:44):
to ask the questions. Is thething integrating with my life,
with my family, with my friends,with my health? Is it
integrating with all the goodstuff? Alright.
So now, on the other side,obsessive passion has a
completely different, we'll callit, vibe. It's that intense,
(30:07):
almost relentless drive whereyou feel compelled to keep going
no matter the cost. That's thekey point I think that I would
wanna put shine a spotlight onfor keep going no matter the
cost. You might startsacrificing other important
areas of your life, Maybe evenyour own well-being because
(30:29):
you're so focused on this onething so passionately, and
sometimes you don't even realizeit's happening because you're,
I'm just into it. I'm just intothis thing.
It doesn't matter that Igenerated 14 ebooks on a
weekend. I'm just passionate,and I'm into it. Oh, no? Nothing
else existed that weekend? Oh,you see, but over time, this can
(30:56):
start to create stress.
It definitely goes into burnout.It conflicts with other areas
that are important to you inyour life even though you can't
see it because you're in the mixor the moment. For me, it's
taken some real self reflectionto recognize when I'm leaning
too far into obsessive passionand I'm trying to be as honest
(31:19):
as I can as I'm talking throughthis on this episode. Take the
superhuman framework that we'vebeen building out, for instance.
I'm passionate about buildingthis and sharing it with people,
with the world, withorganizations and individual
humans.
But there are times, yes, thereare, when I catch myself feeling
that compulsion to keep going,keep tweaking, keep producing
(31:43):
content, even, dare I say, whenI'm exhausted or even when it's
pulling me away from otherthings that I care about, client
work or family time or theability to focus on my own
health and maybe go walk a mileor 2. That's a sign that I need
to pull back and find thatharmony again. So how do we
(32:06):
recognize the difference inourselves? Like, what is a way
that we can do this? For me, itstarts with asking myself a few
questions, and I'm gonna startto do this more in the future
now that I have theunderstanding, thanks to Liz, in
this podcast episode of thesetwo things.
So here's the questions I wantyou to jot down on your notepad.
(32:26):
Am I enjoying this process or amI feeling pressured by it?
There's a big difference betweenenjoying and pressure. And if
you ask yourself the question,document it and think about it.
The next question I I want toask myself is, can I walk away
from it when I need to or do Ifeel like I can't stop?
That question right there for meis a dangerous question. Because
(32:48):
if I look historically, there'sa lot of times where I would be
like, I just felt like Icouldn't stop. And by the way, I
didn't. I have a meeting in 10minutes. I can't go to the
hospital right now becauseeverybody thought I had a heart
attack.
So the third question I have tostart to ask myself and
hopefully the listeners will askyourself, is this passion
enhancing my life or is thispassion starting to take a toll?
(33:10):
And, see, if the answers pointto feeling tense and stressed or
out of balance, then listenlisteners and to myself, that is
a pretty good signal that it ismoving into obsessive territory
and that's not where we wannabe. Why does this matter? We all
need to understand thatharmonious passion keeps us
(33:32):
grounded. Harmonious passionkeeps us happy.
Harmonious passion keeps us incontrol. It allows us to keep
showing up without the mostworst possible thing happening.
It allows us to keep showing upwithout losing ourself, but
obsessive passion can drain us,make us feel out of control, and
(33:54):
ultimately lead to burnout,which is the opposite of what we
want when we're doing somethingwe love. We need balance. Just
even knowing about this orpaying attention to this, Liz,
it's been a game changer for me,and I think it's essential for
anyone that's listening to thispodcast and pursuing something
that they're passionate about.
(34:14):
And I hope the listenersunderstand it's about staying
connected to the joy, not thepressure of it. It's okay to be
passionate, but we're not justpassionate, but we have to be
present. We have to be grounded.We we have to be able to enjoy
the journey that we're all on.Liz, I'm super curious.
(34:36):
What are your thoughts here?
Liz Moorhead (34:37):
I have to also think about this from a
leadership or a collaborationperspective because what struck
me when I just when I found thisin my research is how it
resembles anything that becomesan addiction. Right? The moment
it becomes disruptive to therest of your life, your
relationships, it makes you makechoices that are not healthy for
(34:58):
you. You have a problem. It isit can become it can it can
present like an addiction.
But the reason why I say I wannatalk about the collaboration and
leadership piece of it is thatI've seen situations, and I've
been the creator circumstanceswhere your obsessive passion
makes you judge others as notbeing passionate enough. Where,
(35:22):
well, I'm sitting here spendingall of this time and all of
these all of my weekends doingthese things, and I'm working
with people who are keeping morestandard hours, and they can't
keep up with me, and that'stheir problem. And I've seen
that happen in work situations,and it becomes toxic because
what is happening is as aleader, you are not acting with
(35:46):
a level of self awareness, andyou are looking at others going,
well, they're just not keepingup. Well, they're just not up at
my level. They should rise tomeet me where I am.
Instead of asking yourself, am Isetting the right expectation?
Am I actually even operating ina way that is healthy, that is
harmonious? That's where thisgets really truly important
(36:08):
because I know a lot of peoplewho are listening to this. This
isn't just about growth mindsetand growth as a person and an
individual. I'm sure some of youlistening either are in
leadership position positions orhave aspirations of one day
being in a leadership position.
And when you have that kind ofvisionary quality, you are
probably gonna have more days orweekends where you push harder
(36:28):
than others. But thatexpectation that if others are
not sacrificing in a similar waymeans they are less passionate,
less committed, less driven, andfueled by their own purpose
toward your vision or yourmission, that's when we start
reaching a level of toxicitythat can be catastrophic because
people will either have to killthemselves metaphorically in
(36:50):
order to get to your level, thuscorrupting the harmony in their
own lives. Because if we areoperating at a level of passion
that is creating disharmony inour lives, whether that's
through our health, through ourrelationships, creating
mountains of work that nobodycould possibly go through,
right, you are then asking thosepeople to rise to their level,
and then you are impacting themin their communities. It is
(37:12):
impacting their relationships,their health, and then also
probably their self esteem.Well, I'm just never gonna be
able to do enough.
I just lack the passion. So I II always like to think of it in
that context, you know, becauseall of the passion can be such a
powerful thing. It can help usmove mountains, and that is what
we are meant to do. Right? Weare here to move mountains,
(37:33):
whether that's a littlemountain, a medium mountain, a
giant mountain, doesn't reallymatter.
But when I think about passion,it is most powerful when it's
used as a tool of what you weretalking about earlier, George.
That's why I love that youbrought up collaboration. Right?
That's passion is is a beautifulthing that can be such an
incredible unifying force. Butif you don't have a handle on
(37:54):
your own behavior, what are youactually fostering?
And I say this from experience.I say this as the person who did
that. You know, I learned thatlesson the hard way. This was a
a long time ago in a previouslife as a leader, and I had a
very destructive vision of whatit meant to be passionate, what
it meant to show commitment to acause or to your work or to a
(38:15):
purpose. It wasn't right forother people.
Those are my thoughts.
George B. Thomas (38:19):
Yeah. My brain is going a 100 miles an hour.
Liz Moorhead (38:22):
Yeah. How are you doing over there?
George B. Thomas (38:24):
I'm doing good, but it's interesting
because I'm listening to youtalk, and multiple layers of my
life are colliding. Because oneof the things that, you know, I
do another podcast, Go Figure,called wake up with AI because I
am passionate about AI, and weare collaborating with AI to
create some things that wecreate. I'm sitting here
(38:46):
listening to you talk, and I'mlike, wow. Just because I can
create things faster doesn'tnecessarily mean I need to
deliver them to the people atthe rate that I created them
because maybe I should have somesort of balance, a reservoir, or
a dam comes into mind where it'slike, sure. You could have this
(39:09):
reservoir or dam of creationsand ideas, but knowing there's a
human on the other side of thispassion and this expedited
creation process, maybe you justdrip out a little bit here and
there so that they don't feelburied, so that they don't,
start to think, how am I gonnakeep up?
(39:30):
So they and you even mentionedthe word of, like, they start to
feel bad about themselves andinternalize, like, self esteem.
So there's just a lot where I'mlike, okay. Leaders who are
trying to be passionate andcreate things and get into this
world of leveraging AI tostreamline their processes,
(39:50):
there's a conversation in thefuture that I feel like I'm
gonna wanna have around balanceand dams or reservoirs and,
like, the human output versusthe what you're anyway, not why
we're here, but that's where mybrain's going.
Liz Moorhead (40:06):
No. But that's good. I mean, these are the
conversations we need to behaving with ourselves about, you
know, what is the role thatpassion plays in our lives and
what are the unintentionalexpectations we set around us.
Because this can happen in ourpersonal lives too. We assume
every like, we can have a sharedvision of what we all want to
achieve and have very differentideas around our internalized
purpose or passion it will takefor us to get there and the role
(40:27):
that we individually play ingetting us there.
So it that's why passion is sucha fascinating thing because we
it is truly self defined. So Ialluded to this earlier, but I
wanna get into our nextquestion. You know, many people
assume we talked about theassumption that passion is just
this one great discovery. Andone day, you're gonna wake up
and go, Ben, I know what I'mdoing now. Here we are.
But there's also this assumptionthat pea when people are truly
(40:49):
passionate about their work,they're never gonna feel
stressed or burned out. Butstudies show that even
passionate workers experiencefrequent burnout and stress. So
I'd be curious why you thinkpassion alone isn't enough to
prevent burnout, and how cansomeone balance that intense
drive with the need for rest andboundaries? Because, you know,
you and I both were professorsat rest and boundaries. I know.
(41:12):
I'm sorry to laugh, but, like
George B. Thomas (41:14):
I mean. I don't I don't I
Liz Moorhead (41:16):
don't know. Blind leading the blind situation, I'm
unclear.
George B. Thomas (41:21):
Yeah. So, Liz, first of all, that's it's a
great question. I think, firstof all, it's one of the biggest
misconceptions about passion.Right? You're you're right.
A lot of people assume that ifyou're truly passionate about
something, it could carry youthrough everything, get you
through anything. If you aretruly passionate, like, you're
gonna be able to do anythingwithout feeling stressed or
(41:43):
drained or burned out. Passionalone doesn't make us immune to
burnout. If that was the case,I'd never burn out. And trust
me, I've burned out in big redhot flames before.
In fact, sometimes if we're notcareful, passion, it can
actually lead us straight intoburnout. And so here's the
(42:04):
thing, when you're reallypassionate, you're often so
invested in the thing that youpush harder, you give more of
yourself, and you wanna see thework succeed, the idea succeed,
the thing so much that itbecomes like a a no matter what
scenario. And while that'samazing that you want to succeed
(42:27):
and you want it to be great, italso means that you're more
likely to stretch yourself toothin to keep going even when
your energy aka your health, isrunning low. Any of you
listeners out there, if you'rewondering, because I don't want
you to get caught in a wonderingloop. This topic that we're
(42:47):
covering this question, thereason Liz giggled, and I was
like, yeah, is because I've gotthe t shirt, the hat, the shoes,
and I've worn holes through allof them.
I can go back and look at mypast and be like, whee, my
goodness. Passion can keep youin the game. It's fine. But what
(43:10):
it doesn't do, it doesn'treplace the need for rest, the
need for recovery, the need forbalance. Hashtag health, ladies
and gentlemen, physical andmental.
I think burnout happens when westart relying on passion alone
to keep us going and ignoringthe signals that our body and
our mind, send us. We just weflat out, like, nope. Don't
(43:34):
care. Don't wanna hear it. Idon't see it.
Let's keep going. And when wedon't build in those boundaries,
which hopefully, if there'sanything that you take away from
this podcast is that we need toset up our own boundaries, not
just boundaries of others. Butwhen you build those boundaries,
the passion can start to feelpressure if you don't build
(43:55):
them, and and so we need tobuild those boundaries. Listen.
That's when the joy and theexcitement can fade, which, by
the way, if we talk aboutpurposes or passion as energy,
energy, the excitement, the joy,if it's fading, then what does
that do?
It leaves us feeling exhausted.I've had times in my life where
it's even made me feel resentfultowards the very thing that I
(44:17):
once loved. I don't maybe I'mthe only one. So No. Yeah.
So I didn't think I was. Yeah.Yeah. I didn't think I was. So
so how do we balance that drivewith the need for rest?
Right? For me, it starts withsetting again intentional
boundaries, understanding thatpassion needs structure. Ladies
(44:37):
and gentlemen, please write thatdown. Passion needs structure to
thrive. I found that schedulingbreaks, trying to prioritize
downtime, and even setting hardno work times are critical.
Now make no mistake, even thoughI said critical, I still
struggle to do these things thatI just mentioned sometimes, but
(45:00):
at least I have the realization.At least I'm paying attention.
At least I'm trying to do thesethings, and it's it's about
keeping an eye on our energy.It's about being honest about
when we're feeling drained andgiving ourself permission to
step back without guilt. I Ihope all the listeners heard
(45:22):
that last part, without guilt.
Another important part is toremember that rest fuels that
passion that we so want to haveand it have it be part of the
purpose that we're trying toplay out. So many times we think
that rest takes us away from thething, but rest doesn't take us
(45:43):
away from what we love. Itactually helps us bring our best
energy and creativity to it whenwe're doing it. So if you're
passionate about something,recognize that taking care of
yourself is part of keeping thatpassion alive. And if you have a
hard time with that, go listento the self.
Just take care of yourself.You've got to take care of
yourself along the way. Listen.Passion is powerful, but it is
(46:06):
not limitless. I don't know ifyou realize this or not, but
either are you.
See, when we learn, and I'mpreaching to myself by the way,
when we learn to balance ourdrive with self care, that's
when we can truly sustain ourpassion for the long run. And,
Liz, this is an amazing episode.I can't wait to talk about
(46:29):
persistence, but I have to ask.I know I'm gonna ask you your
one thing from this episodebecause, by the way, we've gone
places that I didn't even thinkor know that we would go. But
before I ask you one thing, isthere anything that is coming to
mind or that you wanna sharebefore I go into that?
Liz Moorhead (46:45):
We equate passion with fire. Fire when it's a
controlled burn provides warmth,provides safety, provides
illumination if we really wannadial into the metaphor.
Unchecked fire is catastrophic.
George B. Thomas (46:57):
Destructive.
Liz Moorhead (46:59):
Not just for yourself, but for everybody
around you. And then it can turnon you. Right? Because you get
that's why I started laughingwhen you said I'm I don't know
if I'm the only one who everstarted to turn on their
passion. I'm like, I also havehad desires to kill the baby.
Like, I've been there. I knowexactly what that feels like,
where you just come to loathethe thing that used to bring you
(47:19):
joy. I've joked about, you know,kind of more humorous versions
of this. It's like, oh, this ismy new food that I will
hyperfixate on for a month andeat it constantly until I can't
eat it anymore, and then I hateit. And then I never wanna see
it again and just it's the lifeversion of that.
I think we tend to boopourselves on the nose with the
newspaper if we are not livingup to some sort of idealized
(47:42):
expectation of what it means tolive with purpose, what it means
to live with passion. If we gettired, we feel bad. If we aren't
showing up the way we think weare supposed to, we feel bad.
And so what happens is we startto negatively talk to ourselves.
Well, maybe this isn't what I'mmeant to be doing.
Well, if I'm feeling stressed orburned out, then, you know,
other people around me, they'renot stressed or burned out. Or
(48:05):
maybe I'm working with someonewhere, like, there is that
expectation of being up theresomewhere. Maybe I'm just not
maybe I don't want it badlyenough, and that's not true. Too
much of anything is just that,too much. It's about balance.
It's about moderation. You arenot a machine. No one is a
machine. No one can keep goingall the time. One of the things
(48:27):
that I had to learn is that,like, the work that I do is very
brain intensive.
Like, I don't have a lot ofaspects of my job where it's
like I can click around or dothings or, like, I don't really
have any kind of, like,autopilot tasks I do with my
job. And I used to getfrustrated myself, like, if I
couldn't get creative on demand.And the reality is I'm if I'm
not resting or if I'm notcreating the containers of time
(48:49):
I need to actually be creative,I just won't be able to perform.
I just won't be able to do it.I've had to learn to walk away
when I do not want to walk away.
I've had to learn that, like, Icannot force certain things out
of myself. And that's againbecause, guys, we are not
machines. We are human beings.We are human beings living a
(49:10):
human experience doing our best.You are not gonna knock it out
of the park every single day.
You are not a machine. Youactually need to sleep. Your
version of living your passiondoes not have to look like
everybody else's version ofliving their passion mostly
because you are showing up withdifferent gifts that may require
different things of you. That'swhy I actually have you'd be so
(49:31):
proud. I actually have a morningroutine now, George.
You know this because I'vestarted you've been seeing me.
I'm up. I'm earlier. I'm around.I'm already on my second cup of
coffee, but that's because Ilearned in order to be my most
creative self during the day, Ihad to move my physical activity
to the morning.
I had to make my mornings sacredand quiet and completely
uninterrupted. Because if I wasnot necessarily sleeping up
(49:52):
until the last minute, but if Iwas putting stuff till later in
the day, if I was just trying toimmediately sit down and get to
work, nothing was coming out. Sosometimes it's about not knowing
yourself and know what it whatit really takes for you to be a
peak performer. And other times,just give yourself an effing
break.
George B. Thomas (50:06):
So we've covered a lot of ground today
about this lovely passion topic.What's your one thing that you
hope the audience takes away?
Liz Moorhead (50:16):
Life isn't a fortune cookie, guys. Go out,
live this world, live your life,discover your passions, allow
them to evolve over time. Thisisn't some hitchhiker's guide to
the galaxy. What is 42? Theultimate the the answer to the
ultimate question of life, theuniverse, and everything.
That's not that's not what thisis. Go out. Live your life. Pay
(50:37):
attention to your body and howit responds to things around
you. When you are doing yourwork, when do you feel like you
are in flow?
When do you feel excited? Payattention to that. Then
understand that as humans, wegrow, we change, we evolve. The
most important thing you can dois approach your life with
curiosity in a sense ofdiscovery, and stop penalizing
(50:58):
yourself like you're doingsomething wrong because it
wasn't this big explosionmoment. Sometimes you'll be
doing things for ages and thengo, oh, crap.
This is my this is my thing. Orit'll take somebody else going,
hey. You're really good at that.Because when you're in flow,
what is easy to you is magic toeverybody else. So you might not
even notice.
George, what about you? What'sthe one thing you want people to
(51:20):
take away from this episodetoday? Because you're right. We
have covered a lot.
George B. Thomas (51:24):
I'll say this. If you want, and you do, by the
way, but if you want yourpassion to truly last, don't
just pour everything into it.Learn to step back and refuel
along the way. Passion, it isn'tabout going full throttle 247.
That's the realization that Ihad to come to, by the way, as
(51:47):
we are working through this, andI was thinking about
historically.
Rest isn't the opposite ofpassion. It's the fuel that
keeps the fire burning strong.So listeners, this is what I'm
gonna ask you to do when itcomes to passion and aligning it
with purpose, and it's reallygonna lean into what we're gonna
talk about in the future whichis persistence. Listeners, I
(52:10):
need you to take breaks. I needyou to set boundaries, and I
need you to remember thatstepping back is part of moving
forward especially on thejourney to a life beyond your
default.
My passion for making a difference that keeps
me coming back over and overweek after week after week. It
keeps me fired up and ready togo episode after episode after
after episode. So purpose mightbe the reason I do this, but
passion is what brings theenergy and enthusiasm that I
need to keep at it over and overagain. And, like, it doesn't
(00:24):
matter because if it was oneperson, right, the mathematics
of 1, 1 person, 1 episode, 1change, then it that's worth it.
But that's because the passionis the enthusiasm to do that, to
keep creating, to keep sharing,to keep pushing forward.
And let's be real. Like, thereare days when purpose alone
might not be enough to get youthrough. And that's where
(00:45):
passion steps in. Passionreminds you of the joy. Passion
reminds you of the excitement ofthe thrill of being on a journey
that freaking truly matters.
And I think this is why so manypeople struggle when they feel
disconnected from either theirpurpose or their passion. Get
your notepad ready because ifyou're just running on purpose,
(01:06):
life can start to feel heavy andthings can start to feel like
obligations. If you're runningon just passion without purpose,
it's easy to get burned out ordefinitely lose direction. So
purpose and passion worktogether to give us both
direction and momentum.
Liz Moorhead (01:27):
Welcome back to Beyond Your Default. I'm your
host, Liz Morehead. And asalways, I'm joined by the one
and only George b Thomas. AndGeorge, I gotta be perfectly
honest before I welcome you toyour own show.
George B. Thomas (01:36):
Oh, wow.
Liz Moorhead (01:37):
This is one of the first episodes where you haven't
either teased me or somethingabout the topic that we're gonna
be talking about today, andsomehow the silence is even more
concerning. So I'm just gonnathrow that out there.
George B. Thomas (01:50):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (01:50):
We'll throw that out there. But why don't we why
don't we just start with ourusual what's your highlight and
your lowlight for the week, bud?
George B. Thomas (01:56):
Hoo. Man. So highlight, I think, is probably
the fact that I am reallyenjoying this AI content
creation journey. And the reasonI'm bringing that up is because
I started to create somethingspecial around Beyond Your
(02:17):
Default and the personal growthside specifically, but also just
leaning into, like, what we'rebuilding with the superhuman
framework, along with BeyondYour Default and the human side
and AI side, and dare I say,Liz, the highlight and and a key
piece in my brain is thisconversation around
(02:39):
collaboration. Collaborationwith AI, collaboration with
humans.
That's my highlight. It's justthat little, twinkle in my mind
lately. The low light, I don'tknow if I necessarily have a
deep, dark, oh my god,existential crisis. But I will
say the low light is I don'tknow if I necessarily have been
(03:02):
taking enough time for melately. Doing all the
collaborations, you know, yougotta pay attention to the well,
yeah, self care.
It's funny because as we areprepping for this episode, one
of the things I'm gonna mentionin is my family. But as I was
prepping, I was like, oh, but Ihaven't done what I'm about to
(03:23):
talk about in a while.
Liz Moorhead (03:25):
And I gotta be honest with you, George. We have
a check-in episode coming up ina few episodes, so you might
before teacher figures it out.
George B. Thomas (03:34):
I might yeah. So I need to I need to refocus a
little bit on actually takingsome time to just be still, be
me and chill instead of all theworks. But, yeah, that's my
lowlights and highlights. Liz,what about you this week?
Liz Moorhead (03:48):
I will admit, I was thinking about this this
morning as I was getting mymorning copy, that my lowlight
is I have is a recognition thatI have done a terrible job of
taking any time for myself.
George B. Thomas (04:01):
Oh, hey.
Liz Moorhead (04:02):
No. George, think
George B. Thomas (04:03):
that rhyming.
Liz Moorhead (04:03):
When was the last time I ever took a vacation
since we started workingtogether?
George B. Thomas (04:07):
I don't know if you have, actually.
Liz Moorhead (04:10):
Yeah. I have this tendency to take trips but
continue to work. And this issomething I noticed was a was a
big problem. I haven't hit anysort of burnout. I haven't hit
any sort of threshold, but thereis some sort of guilt wrapped
around the idea of steppingaway.
Yeah. And I haven't figured thatout yet because, yeah, I had the
(04:31):
same realization you did becauseI I was like, well, I've taken
trips, but I'm always available,and I'm always working. I'm
always and so that for me was alow light in that as much as I
like to sit here and wag thefinger at you, I have been
criminally bad at being justLiz, the human, and then
wondering why sometimes I feellittle fractures in my
creativity. You know? If youwanna become a better creative
(04:53):
or a better writer in my case,go live life.
George B. Thomas (04:56):
Oh, yeah.
Liz Moorhead (04:56):
If you're constantly chained to your
chained to your desk, you're notliving. And so that was
something I'm trying to bemindful because I just had my
birthday a couple of weeks ago,and I've been thinking mindfully
about, you know, what do I wantmy 42nd into 43rd year to look
like. And the thing I am reallylooking for is I have moved out
of survival mode. Right? And Idid a lot of work to get where I
(05:17):
am, and I'm very proud of how Igot myself here.
Was it always pretty? No. It wasmessy. It was bloody. We made
some mistakes along the way, butwhat got me here isn't going to
get me where I'm going.
And so it's making that shiftof, okay, now that we're out of
the mud, where do I want to go?How do I actually start living?
So I'd say that was a low light.Highlight is I've been able to
(05:40):
actually stay with a best friendof mine over the past few days.
She also works for herself.
We do the same work, and justgetting to see her kids has been
great. I've been a human junglegym pretty much. As soon as I
clock out as soon as I clock outaround 6 o'clock every day, I
got kids all over me, and that'sjust always good. You know? I
think I don't really wanna diginto current events, but I think
(06:01):
whenever I seek children, I feela lot of hope for the future.
Like, there's just such thisbeautiful optimism about them.
Just being around unabashed kidjoy is just so soothing because
I think as adults, we forget howto play. We forget what lights
our fires, which actually getsus into today's topic because
(06:23):
last episode, we talked aboutthe first cornerstone of the
superhuman framework. Right? Andthe superhuman framework, we
went through the 10 h's, thedaily habits and qualities we
cultivate to live a life beyondour default.
But the cornerstones, likepurpose and now the conversation
we're going to have today,passion, these are the things
that give us the emotional andmotivational foundation to apply
(06:44):
those habits effectively in ourlives. Right? Because you can
have humor and humanity andholiness and all these things.
But if you don't have purposegiving you direction, if you
don't have passion lighting youup, you're just kind of going
through them. You're busy.
You're not productive. So that'swhat we're talking about today.
Right? We're talking aboutpassion. Now, is passion really
(07:05):
that big of a deal?
I am not asking thatrhetorically. I'm someone who
likes to ask questions. I thinkfor me, I wanted to know the
answer to this question becausesometimes I wonder, are we just
chasing a high that doesn'treally exist? The reality is,
though, is that passion isactually kind of a big deal. So
research shows that individualswith high levels of work passion
are more likely to reportengagement, vitality, and
(07:27):
productivity in their roles.
It improves their taskperformance, and it makes them
feel more satisfied in theirjobs as opposed to those who
lack satisfaction or passion fortheir work. However, despite the
push for passion in careerpaths, and I think this is
something we've seen a lot inpost pandemic life where people
have continued to redefine, doyou work to live or do you live
(07:48):
to work? Where are you actuallyputting those energy hours?
Right? But despite this push,only about 13% of employees
globally feel genuinelypassionate about what they do.
Most people say that they do notfeel an alignment between the
work that they do and thepersonal values that they hold.
But, obviously, work is not theonly place that we see passion.
Right? So engaging in nonworkpassions significantly boost
(08:10):
well-being and life satisfactionregardless as to whether or not
those passions are tied to yourjob. 52% of people who dedicate
time to a creative hobby orpassion report enhanced problem
solving skills and creativethinking in other areas of our
life.
So it not only makes us feelmore fulfilled, we become better
problem solvers. We become morementally acute and engaged in
(08:32):
our own lives. So today, that'swhat we're doing, George. We're
exploring what it means to livewith passion, how to reconnect
with your inner fire when itfeels dim or if it was ever lit
in the first place, and knowingthe difference between true
passion and fleeting excitement.You excited to dig into this?
George B. Thomas (08:51):
I am. I I think it's gonna be a a very
interesting conversation.
Liz Moorhead (08:55):
Let's start with you, George. You know, I love to
always start you with asoftball.
George B. Thomas (08:59):
The guinea pig. Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (09:01):
The guinea. Hi. It's okay. I know you always get
me back, but I would love tohear from you what your journey
has been like for you indiscovering your own passions,
and what should that path ofdiscovery look like for others?
Because discovering what youlove is not easy.
George B. Thomas (09:15):
Yeah. No. It's definitely not an easy button,
but it's it's definitely needed.When it comes to discovering my
own passion, Liz, it's it's beenthis let's just say it's been a
real journey. One full oftwists, turns, definitely
unexpected stops, and I wouldeven say the occasional smack in
the face where it's like youhave these wake up moments.
(09:36):
And and we've talked about someof those on previous podcast
episodes of my life. But, youknow, I can I can remember in my
younger days, like, I used tothink that passion was supposed
to be this big, like, dramaticmoment where everything suddenly
clicked into place, like, youknow, and fireworks are going
off, and it's like this magicalmoment? But, honestly, for me,
(09:57):
it's been a lot more likepeeling back layers to reveal
what really lights me up, in mysoul, in my core, in in, like,
the depth of who I am as as ahuman. You know, it's been a
slow build sometimes and onethat's kind of taught me that
passion isn't just about thisexcitement or this excited
(10:18):
feeling, but it it really is, atleast the passion that I think
we should be looking for alongthis beyond your default journey
is it's about depth. It's aboutconnection.
It's the things that pull youback that make you wanna keep
showing up. And especially whenthings get tough, and I don't I
don't wanna get into persistenceyet. That's a that's another
(10:40):
episode. But when things gettough and you've got that
purpose and you've got thepassion, you know, one of the
big passions I've shared on thispodcast before, and I think
maybe the reason for the podcastis I'm passionate about helping
others. That's been a constantfor me, whether I was being a
blessing bomber after I learnedabout that at the church with
(11:02):
pastor Dave.
And we've talked about that,like, in in historical podcast.
But even, like, if you look atthe superhuman framework, what
is the core essence of that?Well, to help others. And if I
look at my past list, lifeguard,rappelling instructor, pastor,
riding instructor, HubSpot hero,like, what what am I doing every
(11:22):
single time? I'm helping others.
And, again, I list all thosethings out, but it isn't just
about the roles. It's about thiskind of inner drive that I have
to make a difference. I wannamake a difference. I talk about
the ripples. I wanna be able togive people the tools, the best
practices, the mindsets, thehacks, the whatever you wanna
call it to improve their lives.
(11:44):
Like, this is what I'mpassionate about. This is what I
keep coming back to again andagain and again, and it's what
makes me feel like I'm doingmeaningful work or being a
meaningful human to the otherhumans around me because I I
wanna make an impact. I wanna bea catalyst. That's a passion
(12:04):
that's been both rewarding andhumbling at the same time
because, Liz, it pushes me to behonest. It pushes me to listen,
to really understand what peopleneed, and then do my best to
deliver.
Now, I just said that towardsme. What I would want the
listeners to understand is itwill push you. Your passion,
(12:25):
your true passion will push youto be honest with yourself, to
listen to yourself and thosearound you, to need, and then do
your best to deliver that thingfor them that you're passionate
about. Another passion that'sdeeply rooted in my life is self
growth. Again, why are we onthis podcast?
(12:48):
Why have we gone through thetrenches in the last, like, plus
year? I mean, listen. We've hadgood talks about this before,
but I'm always diving into selfreflection. I'm analyzing my
past experiences, and and I'mdigging into the big whys of my
life. And I would ask thelisteners, like, are you digging
(13:09):
into the whys?
Liz you literally, in thebeginning of this, like, I
haven't taken a vacation. Why?Like, why am what am I choosing
to do and why in the future as Igo from the 42 to the 43? Right?
This is a big reason I talkabout living beyond your default
in general, by the way.
On this podcast, I've seen howeasy it is to get stuck in
(13:32):
routines that don't serve us andthese routines that keep us from
becoming who we could be. And soI'm passionate about self growth
because self growth is more thana hobby for me. It's a passion
that drives me to keepchallenging myself, challenging
others to try new things, and tosee just how far I or we as a
(13:54):
group can go. And so it's aboutbecoming something greater than
we ever thought possible becauseof the purpose and the passion
aligning and us running with it.The last thing I'm gonna mention
in this section, and I kind ofalluded to this at the beginning
of the podcast, is my family.
They're honestly one of mybiggest passions. I've shared
(14:17):
stories, here about being a dadand a husband. My passion for my
family isn't just about spendingtime with them. They they drive
me to be a better person. Like,I know without them, I am not
the George that I am right now.
And whether it's taking, youknow, one of my daughters or one
of my sons out for, like, a oneon one dinner or to a movie or
(14:41):
just showing up to love andsupport them or stepping out of
my comfort zone for, like, agirl day or a spa day or you
know? And listen. I've talkedabout the nail salon before. I'm
not hiding from it. We youmentioned self care.
I think that's a great way forself care.
Liz Moorhead (14:56):
You know, I'd love that for you. I'd love that for
you. It makes me so happy foryou. But Get that massage.
George B. Thomas (15:02):
Yeah. But but here's the thing. Like, when it
comes to my family and thepassion for my family, I'm in it
heart and soul. Right? Because Iunderstand that my family is my
anchor, the the source of somuch joy, and I would even say,
like, a level of resilience.
And it's not just the smallstuff, by the way. Like, listen,
hiring them, giving them spaceto grow and find their paths,
(15:24):
seeing them become their futureselves is, like, one of my
greatest joys I know. And trustme, it's not always easy. Like,
your passion can also havestruggle points. But, look, I I
don't wanna make it sound likeit's just, like, oh, fantastic
magical thing becausediscovering what you're
(15:44):
passionate about, like, meunderstanding those three things
and being able to talk aboutthem today, they weren't always
known, and it wasn't alwayssimple to be able to communicate
that.
For anyone listening to thispodcast, if you're if you're
trying to find your ownpassions, like, here's what I
would say. It's okay if it's notsome huge moment. I go back to,
(16:08):
like, the fireworks and youcould start by exploring what
makes you feel connected tosomething on a deep level, even
if it's like this tiniest ofsmall spark, this quiet feeling,
right, rather than thosefireworks that we think that
passion needs to be. Listen.I'll never forget this moment I
had at an event in Californiafor a business I started called
(16:30):
graphics for worship.
This is years years years ago.And I was standing there selling
this company, and all of asudden I had goosebumps, like
this goosebump moment where Irealized that so many of the
jobs I had had, honestly, it waslike 6 or 7 of them, that all of
a sudden I saw them all alignwith what I was doing right
then, right there in that space.And it was like, oh. So I was
(16:54):
able to get an moment, but itwas because of these small steps
along the way that when themoment came and I saw the
alignment, I was like, oh, thisis who I'm being set up to be.
This is why I'm passionate aboutthese things.
Oh, this leans into thispurpose. And it was like seeing
the stars of my own life lineup. And by the way, I love and
(17:18):
live for those moments when Ifeel like it's all connected and
you start to see the reason forwhy things are happening. So you
don't have to have it allfigured out right away. What I
would beg you to to do as youmove forward on this topic and
with this framework or just eventhis just one element of your
life is keep paying attention towhat sparks your curiosity and
(17:42):
what, the things that make youfeel more alive.
Because passion and the passionsthat you have will change, and
they'll grow just like we do ashumans. And the the things that
I'm passionate about now weren'talways the same, and that's
okay. So you have to giveyourself the freedom to keep
exploring. But this is why Italk about curiosity in life.
(18:04):
You have to keep showing up, andwe'll talk about resilience in
another episode.
And remember, finding what youlove, what you're passionate
about, what gives you energy,it's an ongoing journey.
Liz Moorhead (18:17):
So in our last episode, you talked a lot about
how purpose can feel like acompass guiding us. Right?
Showing us what the direction isand then keeping us on course if
we fall off the path. And thenyou've talked about passion,
which can sometimes feel like afire driving us. So I'd love to
hear how in your experience,purpose and passion work
(18:37):
together to create this moremeaningful life that we're
looking for.
George B. Thomas (18:41):
First of all, I love that we're looking for a
meaningful life because theopposite is not really something
worth chasing. And and I lovethis conversation around the
connection, Right? Theconnective tissue, if you will,
between purpose and passion andkind of how they work together
to create this life beyond yourdefault or meaningful life that
(19:01):
you're you're trying to do. I dolike to think of purpose as the
why behind everything we do.It's that guiding star.
You mentioned compass, but,like, you know, guiding star
that gives us direction,especially when we end up, and
we always do, on paths that feela little unclear or a little
rocky. Purpose tells us wherewe're headed. And for me, it's
(19:25):
kind of been like this steady,unwavering force helping us
helping me make decisions thatalign with the core values or or
the vision for what matters inmy life. Now for everybody,
that's gonna be different. But Ido want you to kind of pay
attention to this idea of valuesand vision for what matters most
(19:49):
in your life.
That's the piece that I wouldwant you to pull out when it
comes around purpose. Forpassion, on the other hand, it's
again, I've mentioned it acouple times. It's that spark.
It's the energy that gets usmoving. It's the excitement, the
drive, the fire that keeps usgoing even when things get
tough.
It's it's what makes us wannafollow that purpose, to actually
(20:11):
pursue what matters, and to notdo what a lot of us have
probably done and what a lot ofhumans do a lot of times, and
that is to just talk about it orjust think about it, but not to
do about it. Right? And the ideahere with passion is it's it's
about the doing. For me, passionis what makes purpose come
(20:31):
alive. It's the fuel thattransforms purpose from an idea,
a thought, a thing that I mighttalk about into something that I
actually start to live out on adaily basis, weekly basis,
monthly, but I'm living it out.
In my own experience, these two,purpose and passion, I I
(20:51):
literally look at this as theyaren't separate things, but so
many people, and I personallylooked at them for years as
separate things, I do want youto envision them as two sides of
the same coin. Like, take thispodcast, for example, or even
the superhuman framework thatwe're talking about and building
out. My purpose here is to helppeople grow. Right? This
(21:11):
podcast, that's my purpose, tocome and tell stories, to do
research, to have conversationswith Liz so to help people grow.
By the way, one of those peopleis me. Another one of those
people is Liz. The other people,you, yeah, listening. But people
to grow and to equip them withthe tools, the tactics, the
hacks, strategies for a betterlife. But it's my passion for
(21:34):
seeing real change, my passionfor making a difference that
keeps me coming back over andover week after week after week.
It keeps me fired up and readyto go episode after episode
after episode. So purpose mightbe the reason I do this, but
passion is what brings theenergy and enthusiasm that I
need to keep at it over and overagain. And, like, it doesn't
(21:56):
matter because if it was oneperson, right, the mathematics
of 1. One person, 1 episode, onechange, then it that's worth it.
But that's because the passionis the enthusiasm to do that, to
keep creating, to keep sharing,to keep pushing forward.
And let's be real. Like, thereare days when purpose alone
might not be enough to get youthrough, and that's where
(22:17):
passion steps in. Passionreminds you of the joy. Passion
reminds you of the excitement ofthe thrill of being on a journey
that freaking truly matters. AndI think this is why so many
people struggle when they feeldisconnected from either their
purpose or their passion.
Like, get your notepad readybecause if you're just running
(22:38):
on purpose, life can start tofeel heavy and things can start
to feel like obligations. Ifyou're running on just passion
without purpose, it's easy toget burned out or definitely
lose direction. So, purpose andpassion work together to give us
both direction and momentum.Purpose gives us the road map
(23:00):
and passion keeps us moving,helping us embrace the journey
with all its ups and downs, thehills and valleys. And and when
these 2 aren't individual, likeI just mentioned a second ago,
when they're in sync, not theband.
By the way, much more of aBackstreet Boys fan than in
sync, but that's not why we'rehere. When when they're in sync,
(23:21):
that's when we feel like we'renot just existing. But as
humans, because we have ourpurpose and our passion, we're
truly living. And and, dare Isay, living a life beyond our
default. But, Liz, I'm supercurious because I get to throw
questions back in your cornerevery now and then.
Like, what are your thoughtshere just in general of the
(23:42):
question, but also based off ofwhat I've kind of shared?
Liz Moorhead (23:45):
There are a couple of things that you've said so
far that have really stuck outto me. And one of the most
important things you said isthat if you're waiting for this
big moment of what your passionsare, you're gonna, my brothers
and sisters, Christ, you'regonna be waiting forever. Right?
Like, that's not how any of thisworks. I think sometimes we go
out into this world, and we havethis assumption of there's
already a predetermined answer.
(24:06):
There is no act of curiosity ordiscovery. And I also think that
a lot of people when they'regoing out, whether we're talking
about purpose or passion becauseyou're to your point, they're
two sides of the same coin.Right? There is an assumption
there's only one answer. Thereis an assumption that that
answer won't change or evolveover.
I love what you said there aboutpurpose. If you're just leaning
(24:27):
weighted too heavily on thepurpose side, then life feels
like homework. You're just outthere every day. I am a cog in
the machine. I have a purpose,and it doesn't light me up.
Like, one of the things I loveto talk with my clients about,
on the marketing side of what Ido is that are we here to solve
real problems or imagined ones?
George B. Thomas (24:47):
Yes.
Liz Moorhead (24:48):
And when I think about passion, I then ask
myself, okay. If we're solving areal problem, not an imagined
one, am I excited to solve thisproblem? Or some of my favorite
ways to think about it is mypurpose is to be a catalyst for
catalysts. But my passions suchas writing, I know, writing,
storytelling, looking at someoneand helping them see what I
(25:09):
already see in them, those aremy passions, my tools that help
me live and fuel my purpose. Soit's interesting.
I see them as two sides of thesame coin, but I also see
passion as my tool. Right? I getreally passionate about stories.
I get really passionate aboutpeople, and that's what helps me
solve solve the real problems infront of me, which is how do I
(25:31):
help the people who are meant tochange the world? How do I
change their worlds in their ownbackyard?
Like, that is always the problemthat I am trying to solve.
Because the moment I can help acatalyst catch their own vision
is the moment it becomes easierfor them to do it for other
people. So when I think aboutpurpose and passion, they they
go together. You can have apurpose, but if it doesn't
excite you, if it doesn't wakeup some sort of fire in you, I'd
(25:54):
like to use passion as a litmustest. Right?
We're gonna get into this alittle later. Right? Like,
there's a reason why it's calledwork, kids, and that happy fun
time recess explosion, fairextravaganza balloon confetti
cannon. Right? Like, becausesometimes I just yeah.
Because sometimes it just feelslike work, and that's okay. But
I like to use passion as alitmus test in terms of, is this
really my purpose? Is this thepro are these the problems I am
(26:17):
built to solve? Because ifthere's isn't something that
sparks me about it because youand I could go do a lot of
things for a lot of differentpeople. You know, we're a
little, yeah, we're a little bitof a Swiss army knife.
I can go out and solve a lot ofdifferent problems than the one
I'm ones I am choosing to solve,and that's because I am
passionate about these specificproblems. And I have certain
(26:38):
internalized passions that makeme perfectly equipped to solve
these. That's how I view them asworking together for me. So when
I was doing research for thisepisode, I came across something
very interesting that I wannatalk to you about. There's this
idea in psychology of 2different types of passions.
The first is harmonious. Right?Harmonious passion is described
(26:59):
as a balanced, joyful engagementin something we love where we're
able to switch it off and stayin control. Then there's the
second type, which is obsessivepassion, and this is a bit more
intense. It's the drive topursue something we love, but
it's with a sense of compulsionthat can lead to stress or even
conflict with other parts of ourlives.
(27:19):
So I'd love to hear from youwhat your thoughts on these are
and how we recognize thedifference in ourselves. Because
to me, this is something that Ithink that matters, but I'd love
to hear from you.
George B. Thomas (27:31):
This was the question for me when I started
to go through this because sofirst of all yeah. Yeah. Well,
maybe not in the way that you'rethinking right now. Liz, I have
to admit, and listeners, I'madmitting to you right now, I
had no clue about thisharmonious versus obsessive
passion thing until I read theshow notes that you sent over.
(27:52):
Now what I will say about thatis it's been fun to dig into
these two concepts and reflecton how it shows up or how it has
showed up in my life with, like,this new kind of vision.
Because this harmonious versusobsession, it really brings kind
of this, I'll call it, a newlayer of understanding to what
(28:14):
it means to follow something welove, things that I have loved
and followed without letting ittake over everything. And so, by
the way, I'm I'm gonna repeat alittle bit of what you said so
that the listeners don't have torewind because I I wanna break
it down and then move forwardbecause I feel like there might
be a few listeners that aresitting here going, sounds
(28:38):
interesting. Hashtag no clue. Solike you said, this harmonious
passion, it's like thisbalanced, joyful state where you
as the human are fully engagedwith something you love, but it
doesn't run your entire life.That's a very key point in that.
(28:59):
You can show up, you can divein, you can give it your all,
But then when it's time, you canstep back, recharge, and focus
on other things that matter too.As soon as I was, like, getting
to this part and researchingthis part, I started to ask
myself questions like, can I dothat with my work? Can I dive
(29:20):
in, give it my all, and thenstep back and recharge and let
go? I started to ask thatquestion to several key things
in my life because then it helpsme judge if it's harmonious or
not. Right?
The thing, though, it this idea,it's fulfilling because it
integrates well with the rest ofour life. This is why I started
(29:44):
to ask the questions. Is thething integrating with my life,
with my family, with my friends,with my health? Is it
integrating with all the goodstuff? Alright.
So now, on the other side,obsessive passion has a
completely different, we'll callit, vibe. It's that intense,
(30:07):
almost relentless drive whereyou feel compelled to keep going
no matter the cost. That's thekey point I think that I would
wanna put shine a spotlight onfor keep going no matter the
cost. You might startsacrificing other important
areas of your life, Maybe evenyour own well-being because
(30:29):
you're so focused on this onething so passionately, and
sometimes you don't even realizeit's happening because you're,
I'm just into it. I'm just intothis thing.
It doesn't matter that Igenerated 14 ebooks on a
weekend. I'm just passionate,and I'm into it. Oh, no? Nothing
else existed that weekend? Oh,you see, but over time, this can
(30:56):
start to create stress.
It definitely goes into burnout.It conflicts with other areas
that are important to you inyour life even though you can't
see it because you're in the mixor the moment. For me, it's
taken some real self reflectionto recognize when I'm leaning
too far into obsessive passionand I'm trying to be as honest
(31:19):
as I can as I'm talking throughthis on this episode. Take the
superhuman framework that we'vebeen building out, for instance.
I'm passionate about buildingthis and sharing it with people,
with the world, withorganizations and individual
humans.
But there are times, yes, thereare, when I catch myself feeling
that compulsion to keep going,keep tweaking, keep producing
(31:43):
content, even, dare I say, whenI'm exhausted or even when it's
pulling me away from otherthings that I care about, client
work or family time or theability to focus on my own
health and maybe go walk a mileor 2. That's a sign that I need
to pull back and find thatharmony again. So how do we
(32:06):
recognize the difference inourselves? Like, what is a way
that we can do this? For me, itstarts with asking myself a few
questions, and I'm gonna startto do this more in the future
now that I have theunderstanding, thanks to Liz, in
this podcast episode of thesetwo things.
So here's the questions I wantyou to jot down on your notepad.
(32:26):
Am I enjoying this process or amI feeling pressured by it?
There's a big difference betweenenjoying and pressure. And if
you ask yourself the question,document it and think about it.
The next question I I want toask myself is, can I walk away
from it when I need to or do Ifeel like I can't stop?
That question right there for meis a dangerous question. Because
(32:48):
if I look historically, there'sa lot of times where I would be
like, I just felt like Icouldn't stop. And by the way, I
didn't. I have a meeting in 10minutes. I can't go to the
hospital right now becauseeverybody thought I had a heart
attack.
So the third question I have tostart to ask myself and
hopefully the listeners will askyourself, is this passion
enhancing my life or is thispassion starting to take a toll?
(33:10):
And, see, if the answers pointto feeling tense and stressed or
out of balance, then listenlisteners and to myself, that is
a pretty good signal that it ismoving into obsessive territory
and that's not where we wannabe. Why does this matter? We all
need to understand thatharmonious passion keeps us
(33:32):
grounded. Harmonious passionkeeps us happy.
Harmonious passion keeps us incontrol. It allows us to keep
showing up without the mostworst possible thing happening.
It allows us to keep showing upwithout losing ourself, but
obsessive passion can drain us,make us feel out of control, and
(33:54):
ultimately lead to burnout,which is the opposite of what we
want when we're doing somethingwe love. We need balance. Just
even knowing about this orpaying attention to this, Liz,
it's been a game changer for me,and I think it's essential for
anyone that's listening to thispodcast and pursuing something
that they're passionate about.
(34:14):
And I hope the listenersunderstand it's about staying
connected to the joy, not thepressure of it. It's okay to be
passionate, but we're not justpassionate, but we have to be
present. We have to be grounded.We we have to be able to enjoy
the journey that we're all on.Liz, I'm super curious.
(34:36):
What are your thoughts here?
Liz Moorhead (34:37):
I have to also think about this from a
leadership or a collaborationperspective because what struck
me when I just when I found thisin my research is how it
resembles anything that becomesan addiction. Right? The moment
it becomes disruptive to therest of your life, your
relationships, it makes you makechoices that are not healthy for
(34:58):
you. You have a problem. It isit can become it can it can
present like an addiction.
But the reason why I say I wannatalk about the collaboration and
leadership piece of it is thatI've seen situations, and I've
been the creator circumstanceswhere your obsessive passion
makes you judge others as notbeing passionate enough. Where,
(35:22):
well, I'm sitting here spendingall of this time and all of
these all of my weekends doingthese things, and I'm working
with people who are keeping morestandard hours, and they can't
keep up with me, and that'stheir problem. And I've seen
that happen in work situations,and it becomes toxic because
what is happening is as aleader, you are not acting with
(35:46):
a level of self awareness, andyou are looking at others going,
well, they're just not keepingup. Well, they're just not up at
my level. They should rise tomeet me where I am.
Instead of asking yourself, am Isetting the right expectation?
Am I actually even operating ina way that is healthy, that is
harmonious? That's where thisgets really truly important
(36:08):
because I know a lot of peoplewho are listening to this. This
isn't just about growth mindsetand growth as a person and an
individual. I'm sure some of youlistening either are in
leadership position positions orhave aspirations of one day
being in a leadership position.
And when you have that kind ofvisionary quality, you are
probably gonna have more days orweekends where you push harder
(36:28):
than others. But thatexpectation that if others are
not sacrificing in a similar waymeans they are less passionate,
less committed, less driven, andfueled by their own purpose
toward your vision or yourmission, that's when we start
reaching a level of toxicitythat can be catastrophic because
people will either have to killthemselves metaphorically in
(36:50):
order to get to your level, thuscorrupting the harmony in their
own lives. Because if we areoperating at a level of passion
that is creating disharmony inour lives, whether that's
through our health, through ourrelationships, creating
mountains of work that nobodycould possibly go through,
right, you are then asking thosepeople to rise to their level,
and then you are impacting themin their communities. It is
(37:12):
impacting their relationships,their health, and then also
probably their self esteem.Well, I'm just never gonna be
able to do enough.
I just lack the passion. So I II always like to think of it in
that context, you know, becauseall of the passion can be such a
powerful thing. It can help usmove mountains, and that is what
we are meant to do. Right? Weare here to move mountains,
(37:33):
whether that's a littlemountain, a medium mountain, a
giant mountain, doesn't reallymatter.
But when I think about passion,it is most powerful when it's
used as a tool of what you weretalking about earlier, George.
That's why I love that youbrought up collaboration. Right?
That's passion is is a beautifulthing that can be such an
incredible unifying force. Butif you don't have a handle on
(37:54):
your own behavior, what are youactually fostering?
And I say this from experience.I say this as the person who did
that. You know, I learned thatlesson the hard way. This was a
a long time ago in a previouslife as a leader, and I had a
very destructive vision of whatit meant to be passionate, what
it meant to show commitment to acause or to your work or to a
(38:15):
purpose. It wasn't right forother people.
Those are my thoughts.
George B. Thomas (38:19):
Yeah. My brain is going a 100 miles an hour.
Liz Moorhead (38:22):
Yeah. How are you doing over there?
George B. Thomas (38:24):
I'm doing good, but it's interesting
because I'm listening to youtalk, and multiple layers of my
life are colliding. Because oneof the things that, you know, I
do another podcast, Go Figure,called wake up with AI because I
am passionate about AI, and weare collaborating with AI to
create some things that wecreate. I'm sitting here
(38:46):
listening to you talk, and I'mlike, wow. Just because I can
create things faster doesn'tnecessarily mean I need to
deliver them to the people atthe rate that I created them
because maybe I should have somesort of balance, a reservoir, or
a dam comes into mind where it'slike, sure. You could have this
(39:09):
reservoir or dam of creationsand ideas, but knowing there's a
human on the other side of thispassion and this expedited
creation process, maybe you justdrip out a little bit here and
there so that they don't feelburied, so that they don't,
start to think, how am I gonnakeep up?
(39:30):
So they and you even mentionedthe word of, like, they start to
feel bad about themselves andinternalize, like, self esteem.
So there's just a lot where I'mlike, okay. Leaders who are
trying to be passionate andcreate things and get into this
world of leveraging AI tostreamline their processes,
(39:50):
there's a conversation in thefuture that I feel like I'm
gonna wanna have around balanceand dams or reservoirs and,
like, the human output versusthe what you're anyway, not why
we're here, but that's where mybrain's going.
Liz Moorhead (40:06):
No. But that's good. I mean, these are the
conversations we need to behaving with ourselves about, you
know, what is the role thatpassion plays in our lives and
what are the unintentionalexpectations we set around us.
Because this can happen in ourpersonal lives too. We assume
every like, we can have a sharedvision of what we all want to
achieve and have very differentideas around our internalized
purpose or passion it will takefor us to get there and the role
(40:27):
that we individually play ingetting us there.
So it that's why passion is sucha fascinating thing because we
it is truly self defined. So Ialluded to this earlier, but I
wanna get into our nextquestion. You know, many people
assume we talked about theassumption that passion is just
this one great discovery. Andone day, you're gonna wake up
and go, Ben, I know what I'mdoing now. Here we are.
But there's also this assumptionthat pea when people are truly
(40:49):
passionate about their work,they're never gonna feel
stressed or burned out. Butstudies show that even
passionate workers experiencefrequent burnout and stress. So
I'd be curious why you thinkpassion alone isn't enough to
prevent burnout, and how cansomeone balance that intense
drive with the need for rest andboundaries? Because, you know,
you and I both were professorsat rest and boundaries. I know.
(41:12):
I'm sorry to laugh, but, like
George B. Thomas (41:14):
I mean. I don't I don't I
Liz Moorhead (41:16):
don't know. Blind leading the blind situation, I'm
unclear.
George B. Thomas (41:21):
Yeah. So, Liz, first of all, that's it's a
great question. I think, firstof all, it's one of the biggest
misconceptions about passion.Right? You're you're right.
A lot of people assume that ifyou're truly passionate about
something, it could carry youthrough everything, get you
through anything. If you aretruly passionate, like, you're
gonna be able to do anythingwithout feeling stressed or
(41:43):
drained or burned out. Passionalone doesn't make us immune to
burnout. If that was the case,I'd never burn out. And trust
me, I've burned out in big redhot flames before.
In fact, sometimes if we're notcareful, passion, it can
actually lead us straight intoburnout. And so here's the
(42:04):
thing, when you're reallypassionate, you're often so
invested in the thing that youpush harder, you give more of
yourself, and you wanna see thework succeed, the idea succeed,
the thing so much that itbecomes like a a no matter what
scenario. And while that'samazing that you want to succeed
(42:27):
and you want it to be great, italso means that you're more
likely to stretch yourself toothin to keep going even when
your energy aka your health, isrunning low. Any of you
listeners out there, if you'rewondering, because I don't want
you to get caught in a wonderingloop. This topic that we're
(42:47):
covering this question, thereason Liz giggled, and I was
like, yeah, is because I've gotthe t shirt, the hat, the shoes,
and I've worn holes through allof them.
I can go back and look at mypast and be like, whee, my
goodness. Passion can keep youin the game. It's fine. But what
(43:10):
it doesn't do, it doesn'treplace the need for rest, the
need for recovery, the need forbalance. Hashtag health, ladies
and gentlemen, physical andmental.
I think burnout happens when westart relying on passion alone
to keep us going and ignoringthe signals that our body and
our mind, send us. We just weflat out, like, nope. Don't
(43:34):
care. Don't wanna hear it. Idon't see it.
Let's keep going. And when wedon't build in those boundaries,
which hopefully, if there'sanything that you take away from
this podcast is that we need toset up our own boundaries, not
just boundaries of others. Butwhen you build those boundaries,
the passion can start to feelpressure if you don't build
(43:55):
them, and and so we need tobuild those boundaries. Listen.
That's when the joy and theexcitement can fade, which, by
the way, if we talk aboutpurposes or passion as energy,
energy, the excitement, the joy,if it's fading, then what does
that do?
It leaves us feeling exhausted.I've had times in my life where
it's even made me feel resentfultowards the very thing that I
(44:17):
once loved. I don't maybe I'mthe only one. So No. Yeah.
So I didn't think I was. Yeah.Yeah. I didn't think I was. So
so how do we balance that drivewith the need for rest?
Right? For me, it starts withsetting again intentional
boundaries, understanding thatpassion needs structure. Ladies
(44:37):
and gentlemen, please write thatdown. Passion needs structure to
thrive. I found that schedulingbreaks, trying to prioritize
downtime, and even setting hardno work times are critical.
Now make no mistake, even thoughI said critical, I still
struggle to do these things thatI just mentioned sometimes, but
(45:00):
at least I have the realization.At least I'm paying attention.
At least I'm trying to do thesethings, and it's it's about
keeping an eye on our energy.It's about being honest about
when we're feeling drained andgiving ourself permission to
step back without guilt. I Ihope all the listeners heard
(45:22):
that last part, without guilt.
Another important part is toremember that rest fuels that
passion that we so want to haveand it have it be part of the
purpose that we're trying toplay out. So many times we think
that rest takes us away from thething, but rest doesn't take us
(45:43):
away from what we love. Itactually helps us bring our best
energy and creativity to it whenwe're doing it. So if you're
passionate about something,recognize that taking care of
yourself is part of keeping thatpassion alive. And if you have a
hard time with that, go listento the self.
Just take care of yourself.You've got to take care of
yourself along the way. Listen.Passion is powerful, but it is
(46:06):
not limitless. I don't know ifyou realize this or not, but
either are you.
See, when we learn, and I'mpreaching to myself by the way,
when we learn to balance ourdrive with self care, that's
when we can truly sustain ourpassion for the long run. And,
Liz, this is an amazing episode.I can't wait to talk about
(46:29):
persistence, but I have to ask.I know I'm gonna ask you your
one thing from this episodebecause, by the way, we've gone
places that I didn't even thinkor know that we would go. But
before I ask you one thing, isthere anything that is coming to
mind or that you wanna sharebefore I go into that?
Liz Moorhead (46:45):
We equate passion with fire. Fire when it's a
controlled burn provides warmth,provides safety, provides
illumination if we really wannadial into the metaphor.
Unchecked fire is catastrophic.
George B. Thomas (46:57):
Destructive.
Liz Moorhead (46:59):
Not just for yourself, but for everybody
around you. And then it can turnon you. Right? Because you get
that's why I started laughingwhen you said I'm I don't know
if I'm the only one who everstarted to turn on their
passion. I'm like, I also havehad desires to kill the baby.
Like, I've been there. I knowexactly what that feels like,
where you just come to loathethe thing that used to bring you
(47:19):
joy. I've joked about, you know,kind of more humorous versions
of this. It's like, oh, this ismy new food that I will
hyperfixate on for a month andeat it constantly until I can't
eat it anymore, and then I hateit. And then I never wanna see
it again and just it's the lifeversion of that.
I think we tend to boopourselves on the nose with the
newspaper if we are not livingup to some sort of idealized
(47:42):
expectation of what it means tolive with purpose, what it means
to live with passion. If we gettired, we feel bad. If we aren't
showing up the way we think weare supposed to, we feel bad.
And so what happens is we startto negatively talk to ourselves.
Well, maybe this isn't what I'mmeant to be doing.
Well, if I'm feeling stressed orburned out, then, you know,
other people around me, they'renot stressed or burned out. Or
(48:05):
maybe I'm working with someonewhere, like, there is that
expectation of being up theresomewhere. Maybe I'm just not
maybe I don't want it badlyenough, and that's not true. Too
much of anything is just that,too much. It's about balance.
It's about moderation. You arenot a machine. No one is a
machine. No one can keep goingall the time. One of the things
(48:27):
that I had to learn is that,like, the work that I do is very
brain intensive.
Like, I don't have a lot ofaspects of my job where it's
like I can click around or dothings or, like, I don't really
have any kind of, like,autopilot tasks I do with my
job. And I used to getfrustrated myself, like, if I
couldn't get creative on demand.And the reality is I'm if I'm
not resting or if I'm notcreating the containers of time
(48:49):
I need to actually be creative,I just won't be able to perform.
I just won't be able to do it.I've had to learn to walk away
when I do not want to walk away.
I've had to learn that, like, Icannot force certain things out
of myself. And that's againbecause, guys, we are not
machines. We are human beings.We are human beings living a
(49:10):
human experience doing our best.You are not gonna knock it out
of the park every single day.
You are not a machine. Youactually need to sleep. Your
version of living your passiondoes not have to look like
everybody else's version ofliving their passion mostly
because you are showing up withdifferent gifts that may require
different things of you. That'swhy I actually have you'd be so
(49:31):
proud. I actually have a morningroutine now, George.
You know this because I'vestarted you've been seeing me.
I'm up. I'm earlier. I'm around.I'm already on my second cup of
coffee, but that's because Ilearned in order to be my most
creative self during the day, Ihad to move my physical activity
to the morning.
I had to make my mornings sacredand quiet and completely
uninterrupted. Because if I wasnot necessarily sleeping up
(49:52):
until the last minute, but if Iwas putting stuff till later in
the day, if I was just trying toimmediately sit down and get to
work, nothing was coming out. Sosometimes it's about not knowing
yourself and know what it whatit really takes for you to be a
peak performer. And other times,just give yourself an effing
break.
George B. Thomas (50:06):
So we've covered a lot of ground today
about this lovely passion topic.What's your one thing that you
hope the audience takes away?
Liz Moorhead (50:16):
Life isn't a fortune cookie, guys. Go out,
live this world, live your life,discover your passions, allow
them to evolve over time. Thisisn't some hitchhiker's guide to
the galaxy. What is 42? Theultimate the the answer to the
ultimate question of life, theuniverse, and everything.
That's not that's not what thisis. Go out. Live your life. Pay
(50:37):
attention to your body and howit responds to things around
you. When you are doing yourwork, when do you feel like you
are in flow?
When do you feel excited? Payattention to that. Then
understand that as humans, wegrow, we change, we evolve. The
most important thing you can dois approach your life with
curiosity in a sense ofdiscovery, and stop penalizing
(50:58):
yourself like you're doingsomething wrong because it
wasn't this big explosionmoment. Sometimes you'll be
doing things for ages and thengo, oh, crap.
This is my this is my thing. Orit'll take somebody else going,
hey. You're really good at that.Because when you're in flow,
what is easy to you is magic toeverybody else. So you might not
even notice.
George, what about you? What'sthe one thing you want people to
(51:20):
take away from this episodetoday? Because you're right. We
have covered a lot.
George B. Thomas (51:24):
I'll say this. If you want, and you do, by the
way, but if you want yourpassion to truly last, don't
just pour everything into it.Learn to step back and refuel
along the way. Passion, it isn'tabout going full throttle 247.
That's the realization that Ihad to come to, by the way, as
(51:47):
we are working through this, andI was thinking about
historically.
Rest isn't the opposite ofpassion. It's the fuel that
keeps the fire burning strong.So listeners, this is what I'm
gonna ask you to do when itcomes to passion and aligning it
with purpose, and it's reallygonna lean into what we're gonna
talk about in the future whichis persistence. Listeners, I
(52:10):
need you to take breaks. I needyou to set boundaries, and I
need you to remember thatstepping back is part of moving
forward especially on thejourney to a life beyond your
default.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!