What Does Bravery Really Look + Feel Like?

Episode Transcript
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George B. Thomas (00:03):
What's important is that you're
stepping out of your comfortzone because many times I feel
like the comfort zone is wherewe get stuck. And if the comfort
zone is keeping you from doingand being what is you, the true
you, then it's not really acomfort zone. It's a freaking
jail. So here's the real dealHolyfield. And if when we can

(00:27):
look at bravery in the way thatwe're talking about right now,
it becomes something that iswithin everyone's reach.
And the reason that I'm bringingthat up is because, Liz, you
even kind of alluded or said,like, I'm not brave or I'm not
that brave or I don't have theit is in your reach to have that

(00:47):
thing. Understand that it's notabout the big moments. Bravery
is in the small choices we makeevery day to be a little bit
more honest, to be a little bitmore authentic, to be a little
bit more aligned with ourvalues, to be a little bit more,
well, us.

Liz Moorhead (01:09):
Welcome back to beyond your default. I'm your
host, Liz Morehead. And asalways, I'm joined by the one,
the only George b Thomas whothank you, George, for the first
time in 2 or 3 episodes. Youhaven't said something that
absolutely terrified me in termsof our topic for today. You
haven't threatened me.
You haven't made some sort of,well, you'll see comment. So

(01:30):
just

I mean, I could, but I won't. I'm not
brave enough to actually do thatthis week.

I see what you did there.

You like that?

See what you did there because we are talking
about bravery this week. We'retalking about what it looks and
feels like versus what itactually looks and feels like.
Right? That dissonance betweenwhat we're told what it is
versus what it actually is. Butbefore that, curiosity.
We just came out of a holidayweekend. What are your
highlights and lowlights, bud?

The lowlight is I suck at my brain sometimes.
I wanna feel guilty for notdoing work on a long

It was a weekend.

Just hang on. Let me finish. Because, like, I
was heading into the weekend,and I was like, oh, the wife's
gone. The girls are gone. I'vegot an extra day.
I have 3 days with no meetings.Like, imagine all the work that
I could get done. And then I waslike or I could just take 3 days

(02:27):
off and actually become apotato. And so I did do some,
like, internal work, Meaning,like, sidekick strategies beyond
your default George b Thomas,like because there's things that
we're prepping for that arecoming to the masses, but client
work kind of fell to the sidefrom, like, watching the dogs

(02:49):
because, again, people weregone. Binge watching Umbrella
Academy all 4 seasons, by theway.
Super interesting thoughtsaround that whole show, but not
why we're here. And then also, Iwatched finally. I had been
wanting to watch it. I watchedthe Gran Turismo, like, the kid
who was, like, a online racerwho became a real racer movie.

(03:12):
Anyway, I did have some time torelax that I that's the
highlight, by the way.
It was quiet and relaxing andjust but the low light is I woke
up every morning of the weekendand this morning of this is
Tuesday when we're recordingthis instead of typically
Monday, going, oh, man, dude.Did you screw up? No. You didn't

(03:34):
screw up. Did you screw up?
So my highlights and mylowlights are around my mental
unpacking of when to just take abreak and when to actually work
more.

Yeah. Because what's interesting about that
mental narrative that you justtalked about is that you could
go one of 2 ways. You could saythat friction in my head is
telling me I should have donework, or that friction in my
head is a symptom of me notknowing when to relax. Also, I
opened up my Slack this morning.I'm very excited to dig into all

(04:03):
the stuff you left me.
Don't

be rude.

First of all, number 1, lie. The lie detector

test is not that was a lie.

I love that kind of stuff. Usually, what I do is,
like, when you leave me a bunchof videos, I'll just queue them
up while I'm working in themorning, and it helps me, like,
reinspired for the week. Yeah.So I like this stuff because you
and I are kind of, like, on offschedules. You'll get stuff from
me in the night times.
Yeah. I'm sleeping. Yeah. You'resleeping, and that's when Liz is

(04:32):
up in her little cave of wondersdoing her random ish. Right?
And then you are my littleweekend warrior. Now what was
interesting is for me is mylittle highlights and lowlights.
We were talking about thisbefore we hopped on. I actually
was forced into takingmeaningful time off this
weekend.

Is the universe wonderful?

Yes and no. Because well, here's the thing.
It's a less extreme version ofwhat we had a conversation about
of, like, George had a planuntil he didn't. I've realized
I've criminalized off time. I'vethought about taking vacations,
and then I don't take them.

You have

to take vacation. Or I do take them, and I still
work.

Inbound. Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Alright.

No. But, like, I will take vacations and still
work. I will take vacations andstill say, hey. I'm available.
And then finally No.
This past Friday, there was amassive area Internet outage
where I was. I was able to stilltake some calls, which was good,
but I definitely maxed out myhot spot. And I said, you know,
I'm gonna check things out overthe weekend. Still couldn't do

(05:32):
it. And, honestly, I did notrealize how burned out I was.
Because I think sometimes whenwe think about burnout, we think
about burnout from theperspective of, I'm exhausted. I
hate what I'm doing. Like, I'mjust tired of it. The problem is
I actually really love what wedo, and I'm really inspired by
what we do, and I my brain isconstantly thinking about it.
Yeah.
And it really reminded me when Ifinally was forced to

(05:54):
disconnect, I didn't realize howexhausted I was. I slept for 10
hours one night.

Oh, that's yeah. I've had days like that
where all of a sudden I'll go tosleep and be like, am I ever
waking up? And I I do. What'sinteresting, Liz, is there's a
narrative that I think we needto pull at at some point because
a conversation around how todiagnose burnout when you love
what you do is a real thing.Because that's the thing.

(06:22):
Like, I don't ever reallycorrelate it to that I'm burnt
out. I would say I'm tired, butwhat's the dang difference?
Like, we should have an episodein the future where we dive into
diagnosing burnt out and beingtired in a world where you love
everything that you do.

Well, the other thing too is that should you
wait until you're burned out inorder to actually take some
rest? And that was the thing. Iwas dealing with this whole
feeling of I feel guilty. I feeltired. It's like, Liz, you've
been busting your ass.

Yeah.

You have been producing you. Like, no one is
questioning whether or notyou're showing up.

Yeah.

So maybe just, like, take a beat, and it worked
out beautifully.

Yeah, Liz. You should be brave enough to take a
vacation.

Oh, how

You should be brave enough to, like, take time
for some oh, what is thatcalled? Self care? Oh, yeah.

How long have you been I

didn't do it at the beginning, but I just did
it in the episode.

How long have you been waiting to do?

Since the beginning when you said you
didn't do anything to mess withme this morning. Like

I know. Thanks, bud. I really appreciated that.
But so it was weird. It was alow light at first that then
became a highlight.
And it made me realize, youknow, Liz, if you wanna make
sure there's no divineintervention about whether or
not you, take time off and takesome naps and some rest and some
self care time, maybe you needto start planning that in. Yeah.
But it ended up being a lot offun, you know, to put the phone

(07:46):
down, to not be alwaysconnected. And I'm excited
because this week ends up beingreally perfect because I have so
much deep work planned. I havebasically no plans for this.
I'm just very, very excited toget back into it, and I feel
very reinvigorated. The otherhighlight I will say, though, is
I made my Italian wedding soupthis weekend for friends. And

(08:08):
just the healing power of thatsoup.

I love I think we've said this on this podcast
before, but I love me some goodwedding soup.

Oh, it's the best. It is the best. And what's funny
is my friend who I was with, Ihad given her the recipe before.
And she says, Liz, I don'tunderstand. Whenever you make
it, it's different.
And I said, yes. Because thereare 2 things that I do that I
never put in the recipe becauseit's mine. Oh. Mhmm.

See now. That's not fair.

I'm not allowed to. It's a family recipe secret.

Oh, okay.

It's kinda like the 11 herbs and spices. I'll
give you 10.

Oh, yeah. Which, by the way, have you ever
looked at KFC's, like I thinkit's their Twitter account
because it's like who theyfollow. It's like somebody named
Herb or something.

Oh, the 11 or they follow 11 herbs spices.

Spices. Yeah. It's crazy. Anyway, not why
we're here, but you you my brainwent to, like, that

as you said.

Yeah.

Mhmm. And I said, yes. There there are 1 or 2
things that I do that do not goin the recipe. And then at some
point, I will tell somebody whatthose 1 or 2 things are.

Oh.

As is traditional.

I'm in the room when that happens because

It's stupidly simple, but it makes a huge
difference.

It's like my buddy who the other day, we went
over, and he made chili, whichby the way, there was a whole
conversation of, like, who makeschili for a pool party. But
here's what got it even moreodd. The chili was amazing, but
there was, like, questions aboutthe chili. And so finally, my
buddy was like, well, do youtaste the cinnamon in it? And

(09:36):
we're like, hit the brakes.
You put cinnamon in your chilito which Yeah. He did. And then
my one buddy goes, but it tasteslike almost like barbecue chili.
So it's not that hot spicy,like, puts you on your back,
sweat your face off because it'sa pool party. Well, here he had
put not sponsored, by the way.
I think it's baby Ray's orwhatever. Yeah.

Sweet baby Ray's.

Sweet baby Ray's. So barbecue sauce and
cinnamon in the chili, which wasvery hearty and was, like, the
best thing to eat at the poolparty. Anyway, maybe that was
the highlight of the week forme. I don't know.

Are we ready to get brave?

Let's get brave.

So we already teased this a little bit, but
I'm gonna keep this simple,guys. I think we need to have a
structured conversation todayaround what we believe bravery
to be and what it actually is.What we believe we should feel
like when we are, quote,unquote, within the act of being
brave, and what it actuallyfeels like, which is often dry
heaving. But that's really whatI wanna talk about today,

(10:34):
George. And I actually wanna goahead and dive right into this
conversation and ask you how youthink our cultural perception of
bravery affects how we act, andare there any misconceptions
about what it means to be braveout there?

I think so. It's funny because as soon as I
read this question, for somereason, the word cultural stood
out. And I immediately was like,what's the Bible say about
bravery? And I don't know whywhen you like our culture, like,
I went to the other side, but Idid some digging. And and if you
look at bravery in the Bible,it's like, okay.

(11:10):
Where does bravery come from?Trusting in God's strength and
protection in your life, andthere's, you know, Joshua and
Psalms and all sorts of placeswhere you can find this
information. In the Bible, ittalks about bravery from a
standpoint of courage to standup, for righteousness, for the
doing the right thing, being inthe right places. Bravery is,

(11:30):
like, this thing that you havebecause you're not worried about
being persecuted. Actually, it'smaybe even a thing that you lean
into because of the bravery thatyou have.
When when the Bible talks aboutbravery, it's about, like,
overcoming fear and anxiety inyour life. When it talks about
bravery, it talks aboutleadership and service, which,

(11:51):
you know, me, Liz, I wasimmediately nerd now. They're
like like, yep. There's someleadership stuff from the Bible.
Like, let's go.
Shocking. And so if we thinkabout just this idea of biblical
bravery, it's not about andyou're gonna hear this a couple
times as we kinda move forward.It's not about this absence of
fear. Because so many times,it's like this fear conversation

(12:13):
and this bravery conversationget kind of, like, convoluted or
stirred up together.

The word is conflated.

Conflated. There you go. That's a I'm gonna
use that in scrabble at somepoint in time. But it's this
presence of, like, faith andtrust in God's guidance and
strength that allows you as ahuman to step out and stand firm
in the face of adversity, actingaccording to, like, core values,

(12:41):
will of God, regardless of,like, the personal risk that you
might face. So, like and Iwanted to unpack that piece
because I feel like it'scompletely different than what
when you say culturalperspective.
And so if I just from that, goand answer your question, I
think our culture has definitelyshaped how we think about

(13:05):
bravery. And, Liz, I would sayit's maybe not always in the
best way. When we think aboutbravery, we often picture these
huge dramatic moments. I don'tknow. A a hero running into a
burning building or somebodystanding up to a villain or a
bad I'm using air quotes if youyou can't see this if you're

(13:25):
listening.
A bad human, right, a villain, abad actor. When we think about
bravery, we probably go to,like, our favorite movie, our
favorite story. If we thinkabout bravery, we go into the
history books, then we'reactually, you know, thinking
about how it has to be this big,bold, visible thing, visible.

(13:48):
Well, they were brave because wecould see it happening. And,
Liz, because of this, I thinkmany people think that if
they're not doing somethingepic, I should do that.
Epic. Like, if they're not doingsomething epic, they're not
being brave. And this is simplynot reality. You see, this type

(14:10):
of thinking, this epic, big,bold has to be seen. I think
that it creates some bigmisconceptions.
One of the most common ones isthat, Liz, bravery means having
no fear. Like and, again, I kindof alluded to this at the
beginning, but we look at bravepeople and and think, man, they

(14:30):
must be fearless, which by theway, there was there used to be,
like, back in the I think it waseighties or nineties where it
was, like, the a brand of, like,around this whole idea of, like,
no fear. Right? I don't I don'tknow if any of the listeners are
as old as me to remember nofear, but it was this, like,
almost call to, like, well, nothave fear. But, again, that's

(14:53):
not all true at all.
Like, bravery isn't about notbeing scared. Bravery is about
feeling fear and still movingforward anyway. And so if we
only think of bravery as this,like, fearlessness, we end up
feeling like we're not bravebecause, well, we still feel

(15:15):
afraid. And I know, like, youthis is kind of hard to unpack,
which is why I'm glad that we'rehaving this conversation of,
like because if you don't feellike you can be something
because you're thinking ofsomething else, then it's very
hard to step out and be and dothat thing. But the truth is,
fear is actually part of beingbrave.

(15:37):
So, listen, I'm gonna stopthere. I have another
misconception that I wanna talkabout, but I'm gonna stop there
because I wanna get yourthoughts on that.

I agree with a lot of what you said. I think there
is a perception of what webelieve bravery to be when we
personally and internally are atour most fearful. It is a story
that we tell ourselves thatunfortunately makes us feel as
if we are not brave. Right? Butit's exactly what you said.
We we believe to be brave is tobe without fear. No. To be brave

(16:10):
often feels like vomiting. To bebrave often feels like, okay.
I'm doing it scared.
I'm doing it anyway. Right? ButI think the other thing we have
to remember is that we are allvery different. And so what we
are afraid of, what can feelhard to us may not feel hard to
somebody else. But what may feeleasy to you may be hard to

(16:34):
somebody else.
You may need to tap into braveryat times when your neighbor does
not need to tap into bravery.But when we look at them and we
see them doing something quote,unquote without fear, well,
maybe that's because that's justthe thing they aren't afraid of,
but that doesn't mean theyaren't afraid of other things. I
think it's an interestingthought loop that we get caught
in because we are trying to finda way to make ourselves feel as

(16:58):
if we are lacking. We aretelling ourselves a story about
why we can't do something. Andwhen we look at somebody else
and go, but they're brave.
Honestly, that internalmonologue we have has nothing to
do with them. We are lookingoutside ourselves to have a
conversation about somethingthat should be completely
internal.

Oh, okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. I love that you bring upthis could be internal. I love
that you like vision or seeingof the thing because that leads
me into the other misconceptionis that bravery is always
something that's loud andobvious. Mhmm. Which is not the
truth.
In reality, some of the bravestthings we do are very quiet and

(17:39):
very personal. Like, Liz, Istarted to break down things
that could be considered verybrave, me and you, by the way.
Oh, boy. So some examples of mybravery that we've talked about
on this podcast, embracing myfull identity takes bravery. If
you're going to embrace yourfull identity, you will need to

(18:00):
be quietly and personally braveto get past that.
This idea of integrating allaspects of your personality,
your history for the good, eventhe rough parts. Like, it takes
bravery. Challenging the defaultmindset. Right? Like, starting

(18:21):
this podcast and advocating forliving a life beyond your
default, to hit record and justshow up on a daily basis or
weekly basis, quiet and verypersonal bravery, facing fear
head on and reframing how I eventhink about fear to intersect

(18:41):
with this conversation of and bythe way, you can go listen to,
historical episodes where wetalk about fear, and I talk
about false evidence appearingreal and transforming fear into
excitement to better handlechallenging situations.
Bravery. Being vulnerable inpublic, self belief, high school

(19:02):
dropout, 1 room log cabin,almost dying 3 times. Putting
all that out into the world,bravery. Liz, you on the podcast
have been very brave, letting goof energetic ghosts. Right?
Identifying and releasingrelationships and situations
that drain your energy, facingthe discomfort of potential loss

(19:26):
in your life, bravery, embracingthis idea of authentic
conversations. The fact thatmost people don't wanna, but
you're encouraging deep andsometimes challenging
discussions. Right? George, whenare you gonna show up as a whole
human? Right?
I hear you telling stories of,like, these conversations with

(19:49):
other people in your life,Navigating this journey each
week, the uncertainty of thepersonal growth that will or
will not come from theinvestment of time, but it takes
bravery to be intentional aboutwhere your energy goes and

(20:09):
stepping into this beyond yourdefault, which many times can
feel like the unknown, and it'sgonna change these phases that
you go through. That takescourage, that takes bravery.
It's setting boundaries andsaying no sometimes to something
that doesn't feel right, oradmitting to others that we need

(20:32):
help, like these acts ofbravery. Ladies and gentlemen,
they don't always get anapplause. They don't always get
attention, but they'reincredibly courageous because
they come from these places ofdeep honesty and authenticity.
And, again, I'm sure if we couldget you on the mic, you would

(20:53):
have your own list of thingsthat you could be like, well, if
I look at it that way, I'mpretty dang brave. So, Liz, I'm
I'm curious about your thoughts.Like, you brought up culture. So
have you seen these culturalideas shape what people in your
circles or you yourself thinkabout bravery and and what it

(21:16):
is?

Yeah. I mean, especially the funny thing is is
that I don't think about it toomuch when I don't have a
personal circumstance in my lifewhere I need to or I perceive a
need to be brave. Right? WhenI'm not stressed about
something, I tend not to beterribly worried about the whole
bravery quandary. It's just nota hypothetical thought
experiment I'm engaging in.
But I think and maybe this isjust me, maybe others can relate

(21:40):
to this, but I know if there'ssomething in the back of my mind
that is lingering that I'm notaddressing or it's no I know
it's something where, quote,unquote, I need to be brave,
I'll start seeing reminderseverywhere of what I believe
bravery is. And depending on myhead space and my mindset, I
will either be looking forexamples of what I should do or

(22:03):
subconsciously seeking outevidence that I am not brave or
there's something different.Right? So that was what I was
getting to before. Right?
Like, let's pretend for a momentthat, you know, you have a a
fear of dogs, but your frienddoesn't. Yeah. Okay? You look at
your friend and they just seemso brave. They're not brave.
They just don't have a a builtin, baked in fear of dogs. And

(22:24):
so you just start drawing thesecomparisons. But let's take it
to a work thing. Right? Like,let's say you're someone who
wants to get into publicspeaking and you have a friend
who is a public speaker andthey're naturally very good at
it.

Not scary at all.

Yeah. For that Yeah. For them, they may say,
wow. They're so brave to go onstage. Ugh.
And they're also just so good atit. What's interesting is
whenever I find myself drawingthose comparisons particularly
around bravery, if I'm beingbrutally honest with myself, I'm
not just sitting there comparingwhether or not they are brave.
I'm also comparing talent. I'mcomparing other things. So this

(22:58):
is where we have to be verymindful of the thoughts that
we're having in those moments.
Right? We we naturally andsubconsciously seek out evidence
of the story we want to believeand reinforce. And sometimes
bravery is a part of thatequation. Right? We are not
brave enough, but we are notonly not brave enough, we are

(23:18):
not talented enough, so whybother?
We are not only not braveenough, we are not experienced
enough, so why bother? We arenot only not brave enough, we
are more likely to get rejectedthan whomever we are projecting
the story upon. Right?

Downward spiral.

Exactly. So often, bravery is a Trojan horse for us
to kind of shove a lot of ourown other insecurities in there.
It's usually hiding something alot deeper.

It's funny. You're breaking my brain. Not to
interrupt you. I do apologize.But listening to you do that
immediately, and I don't knowwhy, but for some reason, my
brain goes, man, if that's thegame the listeners play, like,
inject some I am statements intoyour life like yesterday.
I am powerful. I am educated. Iam brave. Whatever you usually

(24:12):
let your negative Nancy or, youknow, negative Norman Brain do,
find the polar opposite of thatand, like, I am statements. I
sometimes will fall asleep.
Like, you know, I'm struggling,by the way, not that you can
come into my bedroom when I'msleeping, listeners, but if you

(24:32):
could, you know that I'mstruggling if it's a night where
I fall asleep to I amstatements. Because I am
literally reenergizing,rejuvenating myself even when
I'm try like, just let it dripinto my brain, Lord, please.
Because I need a little morejuice to make it through the
next couple days or the nextcouple weeks, or I've been

(24:56):
struggling with who I am and whyyou have me on this dangone
planet. I'll be going to sleepwith I am statements.

Well, let's get into what bravery actually is.
George, from your perspective,what is bravery really? So full
Real softball for you.

Full full circle ish right here. Bravery
is choosing to be true toyourself even when it's scary or
uncomfortable. It's about makingdecisions, big, small, life,
whatever, that align with whoyou really are or maybe even who

(25:33):
you wanna become, and moreimportantly, what you believe in
rather than what's easy orexpected. The two directions
that I would ask humans not tofollow are the easy street and
expected avenue. Bravery isn'tsomething you either have, by

(25:54):
the way, or don't have.
Bravery is something that youpractice. And, Liz, during the
first part of our conversation,I couldn't help but, like, think
about in my brain. Like, I don'tknow if I'm thinking about
bravery as I do the thing, butmany times, it's reflective of,
like, oh, that took courage.That took bravery. Like, why was

(26:19):
I able to easily step into that?
Because of the practice, 1%better each and every day, of
leaning into the true self,leaning into comfort in
discomfort. Ladies andgentlemen, it's about taking
small steps every day to moveyou closer to the life you wanna

(26:40):
live. The precipice of thisentire podcast, a
transformational journey frombeing stuck in the pit to being
able to celebrate at the peak.But these small steps get you
closer to this life that youwanna live even when those steps
feel uncertain, even when itfeels like it's a step you can't

(27:02):
take. The truth is, by the way,Liz, you ask me, like, what is
bravery really?
It depends. It's that's a greatmarketing answer. It depends,
but it's different for everyone.Like, it will look different for
you than it does for me, than itdoes for almost every single one
of the listeners. For some ofthe listeners, it might mean

(27:23):
speaking up in a meeting, atwork, or at home when you're
usually quiet because that'sjust who you are expected to be.
For others, it could be ending arelationship that isn't healthy
or taking a leap into that newcareer, which sounds really
scary. Well, I don't know thosepeople. I don't know if I'm good

(27:44):
enough for that job. You onlyknow once you actually dive in.
Like, I can't help but thinkabout when went from working,
the expected 40 hours a week,insurance, 401 k, like, all the
things to how about we just giveall that up and go out on our
own?
Like, that sounds amazingly easyand expected. Nope. It's the

(28:07):
exact opposite of what wouldhave been easy and expected. So,
like, pray for one person mightnot be for another. By the way,
I would start another companytomorrow because been there,
done it, where there's peoplelistening to this that are still
in a job that they might notwanna be in and dream of doing

(28:28):
their own thing, but that wouldtake courage and bravery.
And, by the way, a little bit ofstrategy to get the point where
you can actually do that. What'simportant is that you're
stepping out of your comfortzone, because many times, I feel
like the comfort zone is wherewe get stuck. And if the comfort
zone is keeping you from doingand being what is you, the true

(28:52):
you, then it's not really acomfort zone. It's a freaking
jail. So here's the real deal,Holyfield.
And if when we can look atbravery in the way that we're
talking about right now, itbecomes something that is within
everyone's reach. And the reasonthat I'm bringing that up is
because, Liz, you even kind ofalluded or said, like, I'm not

(29:15):
brave, or I'm not that brave, orI don't have the it is in your
reach to have that thing.Understand that it's not about
the big moments. Bravery is inthe small choices we make every
day to be a little bit morehonest, to be a little bit more
authentic, to be a little bitmore aligned with our values, to

(29:37):
be a little bit more, well, us.

So how do you see it as different from
fearlessness? Because some ofwhat you talked about here is
either absence of fear or notletting fear control you or
having a mastery of your fear.But how do you see those two
things as being different, andwhy is that distinction
important?

First of all, it's funny because I had to sit
and unpack this, which is, bythe way, why I love this show
and I love the time to do thisbecause bravery and fearlessness
for me often got mixed up into,like, this what what word did
you use earlier? Convoluted?

Conflated.

Conflated. Yeah. Like, just this thing.
Right? And so fearlessness iswhen you don't feel any fear at
all.
It's like jumping into somethingwithout thinking about the risks
or what could go wrong. It'sjust like fearlessness. We're
just no fear. We're just gonnado it. Don't care.

(30:38):
For some, jumping out of aplane, no fear. For some humans,
hopping on a roller coaster, nofear. For others, climbing a 30
foot ladder, no fear. This ideaof not paying attention to what
could happen, the ramifications,being fearless, It it sounds

(30:59):
nice. But if not kept in check,it can be a bit reckless because
there's no awareness of thedanger or the consequences of
the thing that you're doing thatyou have no fear or being
fearless around.
FYI listeners, the 3 things thatI listed are the 3 things that

(31:20):
scare me to death. Like, scareme crapless, skydiving, roller
coasters, and heights. For me,it's not no fear. It's, oh, god.
Like, fear.
But here's the thing. I'veclimbed a tall ladder and even
ridden a roller coaster. Why?Bravery because I wanted to ride

(31:44):
the roller coaster with myfamily. I needed to go fix
something for the family.
Bravery due to the service orcommunal reasons to get past the
fear. You see, bravery is allabout feeling the fear and

(32:05):
deciding to move forward anyway.It's when you know the risks and
you understand what couldhappen. The roller coaster could
go off the tracks and I coulddie today. I could lean over to
the right too far and the ladderwould slide down and I'd end in
the hospital.
But you still choose to actbecause you believe in what

(32:27):
you're doing. I believe thatneeds fixed. I believe I need to
spend time with my family orwhoever it is that you're doing
this thing. This is important,by the way, understanding this.
Because if we think we need tobe fearless to be brave, we
might not ever act.
And the lack of acting is theworst thing that we can do.

(32:50):
Imagine if we never created thispodcast. Imagine if we never
created our own business.Imagine if we never got married.
Imagine if we never had kids.
Like, I can go through this listof things through my life, where
in the moment, I might not feellike I was being brave, but

(33:11):
because I pushed forward and didthe act, I was actually being
very brave, very courageous.Listeners, I want you to think
about what are the acts thatyou've done that if you
historically look back, you'relike, oh, I'm a badass. That's
where you need to lean into.That's the energy. If we don't

(33:32):
pay attention to the acts thatwe've had, we'd wait forever for
the fear to go away, and we'dmiss out on a lot of the
opportunities, the magicalmoments on the other side of
that fear because we are able toactivate or engage bravery in
our life and lean into thoseopportunities of growth through

(33:54):
the discomfort of this thing.
And by the way, you might behanging on a a string and
wondering, but, George, you onlymentioned ladders and roller
coasters. I'm just gonna stepout right here and be very
brave. Ladies and gentlemen, Idon't think I'll ever look at
skydiving as an opportunity forgrowth, but I digress.

That's gonna be a hard pass for me too, dawg. So I
could be honest.

I'm not doing it. Being for real. When we see
bravery as action in the face offear, we start to understand
that fear and again, you candiagnose what you truly believe
and think about fear, listen tothe historical podcast. But you
start to understand that fear orthe energy is a natural part of

(34:37):
life. Having these moments offear doesn't mean we're weak or
incapable.
Punchline, it just means we'refreaking human. And being human
means we get to decide what todo with that fear. You can let
it stop you, or you can use itas a guide towards what really
matters in your life.

So what does it feel like for you, George, when
you're actually being brave?What's it feel like for you?
What the actual physical oremotional feelings that you
feel?

Yeah. This one's a hard one for me because,
first of all, I think we have torealize, I may say how it feels
for me, and it may be a completedisconnect for the listeners.
Because being brave feelsdifferent for everyone, but it
does usually come with a mix ofemotion. And we've talked about

(35:27):
fear. Right?
What happens when you're in thisfear or energy moment of your
life? Palms might get sweaty.Your knees might get weak. You
might feel like you have a knotin your stomach, which, by the
way, is it just me or is anybodyelse thinking about the Eminem
song right now?

I was literally about to say about mom's
spaghetti.

Arms are heavy. Like, the lose yourself
lyrics, by the way. I'm like,okay. I just recited Eminem on
Yep. Beyond Your Defaultpodcast.
But anyway, sweaty palms, weakknees, heart racing, like, these
are all signs that you arestepping into something
uncertain or challenging in yourlife. The interesting thing for

(36:09):
me, and this is where listenersmay be like me, I may be like
them, is there's also this thingthat happens in fear. In the
churning it or activating thebravery, there's this sense of
clarity and purpose, and evenexcitement. Some people have
looked at me like I have 3 headswhen I make this certain

(36:32):
statement where I'm like, oh,man. I get excited when life
gets rough.
And, like, what the is wrongwith you, dude? And I'm like,
oh, I can't wait to see who I'mgonna be on the other side of
it. Because there's thisclarity, and there's this
purpose, and there's thisexcitement for understanding the
journey, and growth comesthrough those chaotic moments

(36:54):
that induce fear and andactivate you to be brave. It's
like if you get out of yourbrain, that, like, lizard brain
area, it's like you know deepdown that you're doing something
important. Something that istrue to who you are, true to who
many times you're afraid to showthe world.

(37:16):
It's a whole another podcast.But these magic moments in life
are always on the other side ofthis thing that we call fear,
and the tool to get past it, toget from here to there, this is
exactly what we're talkingabout, bravery. When you're
being brave, first of all, Idon't even know if you're like,

(37:37):
and I'm being brave right now.Like, it's I don't think it
works like that. But you mayhave this, and this is me.
Right? But you may have this. Itis a strange mix of anxiety and
peace at the same dang time.There's the tension of this
stepping into the unknown, butthis sense of liberation because

(38:01):
you're doing what feels right.How many times in your life,
listeners, are you making thehard decisions to just do what
feels right versus what yourcircle expects?
When you're going through thisbravery vortex, many times it

(38:22):
can feel like you're breakingfree from what's been holding
you back. It can feel likeyou're actually standing up for
yourself in a way that you neverhave been able to before.
Bravery, I would say, it's notcomfortable. Maybe there might
be times where it's lessuncomfortable, but there is a

(38:46):
power in it. A feeling of beingfully alive, being fully
aligned, and being fullyactivated.
If you do anything from thispodcast around bravery, realize
that it's around being alive,aligned, and activated in the

(39:10):
directions that you need to go.For me, I know that there is a
divine inspiration that isputting me on a path. For you,
it might be you. It might be theuniverse. Like Liz, it might be
your dang inner cupcake.
That's how it's gonna bedifferent for everybody, but I
need you to lean into this beingalive, being aligned and

(39:35):
activated. And think back to atime, listeners, when you did
something that scared theabsolute crap out of you. You
did the right thing because itwas the right thing to do. And
why am I getting you to callback to that? Because you did it
once.
You can do it again. And whenyou make it a repeatable action

(39:56):
over and over and over again, itbecomes easier. When you reflect
back to that time, by the way,scared the crap out of me, did
what was right because it'sright, how did that feel like in
your body? What was going onthrough your mind? Because if
you can record what washappening in your mind and

(40:17):
understand the feeling that wasin your body, you can pick it up
and diagnose it in the moment.
You asked me as part of thatquestion I feel like it was a 2
part question you asked me. Canyou share a personal experience
of what it felt like? The firsttime I rode a roller coaster, I
was scared crapless. The firsttime I asked a girl out, I felt
like I was gonna vomit. Thefirst time I rode a horse, by

(40:40):
the way, felt like I had zerocontrol.
The time I started my ownbusiness, like I was jumping off
a cliff. The time I launchedthis podcast, like I was asking
others to judge me. It's just apart of life. It's a part of
making choices. You can't getaway from it.
Quit looking at Hollywood. Lookinternal. Look at your heart,

(41:04):
your brain. It's not somethingthat you don't have. It's
something you've been doing.
Now just pay attention to it.

You know, for me, it's similar to what you've
discussed, and it's also a bitdifferent. I think there are
some of the basics that we'vetalked about. You know, we've
been beating the drum prettyhard that there's this really
great quote. There there are athousand quotes that are
basically some version of this.True courage is in facing danger
when you are afraid, l FrankBaum.

(41:32):
Courage is is resistance tofear, mastery of fear, but not
absence of fear. Like and that'sMark Twain. Like, there are so
many quotes out there that arebeating us over the head of,
like, bravery is not caring.It's not that. So, you know,
there are times where braveryfeels like drive heaving.
There are times where braveryfeels like I am absolutely,

(41:53):
deathly afraid. But truebravery, for me, at least, is
where I am not thinking aboutbravery at all.

Yep.

Because it's kinda like, do you wanna make real
money? Don't make money thegoal. Right? Do you want to do
all of these different things inyour life? Well, if you
obsessively cling to a veryspecific ideal of what success
looks like or a very specificmetric, you're going to miss the
mark entirely or you are goingto forever stunt your growth.

(42:23):
Like, that's just the reality.So when I think about moments of
true bravery, I'm not sittingthere going, do I feel brave
yet? Do I feel brave yet? Do Ifeel brave yet? There's another
quote that's, you know, braveryis is an action.
It is movement. It is doing thething. The moments where I'm
truly brave are where braveryfor me is not a part of the
conversation feeling orintellectually at all. I'm doing

(42:46):
the thing. And I may beexperiencing fear while I'm
doing it.
I may be experiencing all ofthese other things, but you
gotta go. You gotta go. Yougotta go do the thing. And so
bravery to me often is somethingmaybe I may think about in
hindsight. Man, that was a bravething I did.
Right? If we constantly feel,like, we need to tap into

(43:07):
bravery in order to be brave,we're kinda missing the point.
If you have something in frontof you that requires you to do
something, stop worrying aboutwhether or not you're brave and
start thinking about the factof, like, if you're sitting
there waiting to feel motivatedto do something, you will be
waiting forever. Mhmm. If youare waiting to feel confident
about something before you dosomething, you will be waiting

(43:28):
to feel confident forever.
It's that thing that James Cleartalks about in atomic habits.
Right? Motion before emotion.And we've talked about this on
another podcast. It there one ofmy favorite quotes is you're not
a tree.
Move. Now granted, I sound likeI'm doing this from the
perspective of Liz moves andmoves through fear and stuff.
I've written no. Ding a lings. Istill find myself in moments of

(43:51):
paralysis.
I still find myself in momentswhere I get stuck. But I've
noticed the times when Istruggle quote unquote to be
brave, I'm masking the realproblem. It's not that I don't
know how to be brave. In manycases, it's just because I feel
overwhelmed and don't know whatmy first step should be. Or I
don't know it's okay to ask forhelp.

(44:11):
But often, it's just what thefirst step is. Because I'm
either obsessively thinkingabout every single step I think
I need to take, or there are toomany things all at once and I
don't know where to start. Andall I need to do is just sit
down and then make list, or makea plan, or just step out on
stage, or just do the dangthing. I wrote about this once

(44:33):
in the newsletter beyond yourdefault.comforward/newsletter.
We want things to be harder thanthey actually are, because it
creates a safety in which wedon't need to take action if
things are harder than theyactually are.
Like, think about having tobreak up with someone. Yes.
Theoretically, having toughconversations is tough. But if
let's strip all the emotion outof it. You need to call them.

(44:53):
That's a phone call. You need toset a time to meet. That's not
difficult either. And thenbetween 5 20 minutes or maybe
longer depending on how theyreact to the new overall, it's
about cumulatively 30 to 45minutes of lift. And I know that
sounds like really heartless tosay it that way, but let's be
realistic here.
We often will exert a lot moremental energy than it does to

(45:15):
actually complete a task. Youknow, the breakup. Again, that
thing could take 5 minutes. Theymight get upset. They might
throw water in your face, andthen they may walk out the door.
They may actually ask a lot ofquestions, so it takes an hour.
Either way, the lift is prettylight. You have to sit with
uncomfortable feelings, butfeelings, it's just a feeling
and it sucks to hurt people. Itsucks to do things that aren't

(45:38):
fun. Even going to the DMV,which we also will just hold
over our heads, and it's awful.
Right? So even that, like, is anhour, maybe 2. Actually, if you
do a little planning, you couldprobably get an appointment and
you'd be fine too. You know?It's one of those things where
we think in order to be brave,we must make the goal being
brave, and I think that's wherewe get tripped up.

(46:01):
So when we ask what braveryfeels like, bravery feels like
you're not thinking aboutbravery. You're just dealing
with whatever is in front ofyou. And it'll be messy, and
it'll be uncomfortable.

Oh, yeah.

But like like I said, a breakup, you will spend
hours, days, weeks givingyourself mental anguish over
something that may cumulativelyfrom a lift and transactional
perspective anywhere from a halfan hour to 2 to 3 hours. You can
watch The Godfather part 2 andhave it be done. And I know,
again, that's a very heartlessway to put it, but think about

(46:34):
things in your life where youhave spent more time thinking
and worrying about the thingthan actually doing the thing. I
had a work task last week, andfrom the outside by the way, I
don't think anybody would havenoticed I had an issue with it.
Got it in on time.
Looked great. Client approvedit. Everything was awesome. Just
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.That was a task I put off.

(46:58):
Still hit my deadline, but Idefinitely was, like, I'm gonna
knock it out at the beginning ofthe morning because it's the
thing that's freaking me out.Definitely punted it to the next
morning. Thought about it thatwhole day that I had punted it,
and it was fine. It ended uptaking me about 35 minutes to
complete, and it went swimminglywell. And it was delivered on
time, and the client was happy,and everyone was happy.
It was a dumb thing. I gavemyself 12 hours of anguish for

(47:21):
absolutely no reason. So I don'tknow. That's my thoughts about
bravery in terms of what itfeels like. Bravery, true real
bravery feels like doingwhatever it is that needs to be
done without thinking about, amI being brave?
This big brave. Do you thinkJohn McClain was sitting there
worried about being brave in DieHard? No. And that man was

(47:43):
miserable the whole time. He wascomplaining the whole time.
He did not to be there. He wassupposed to not be working. He
was, like, what how do I getinto this shit? You know what I
mean? Like, that's what makesJohn McClain, but now granted,
is he completely unrealistic andthrow in his body, like,
withstands things that shouldnot be with yes, because it's
movies and shut up.

(48:04):
But at the same time, that'swhat makes Die Hard so flipping,
quote unquote, relatable. JohnMcClane doesn't wanna be there.
And then in Die Hard 2, hedoesn't want to be there extra.
And he even goofs, like, justcut as a cheesy guy. How does
this keep happening to me?
And he's not happy about it.He's not sitting there like,
yes, a moment to be brave, amoment to explode, a moment to

(48:27):
take my shoes off and walkacross glass or go through on a
snowmobile or in an airport. No.He's so relatable because he's
just going forward because hehas to.

Yeah.

That's what bravery feels like to me.

I love that. Moving forward because you have
to. I totally thought of Nike,like, just do it. Just leave.
Just do it.

Like, we're having a whole conversation about
bravery today, and really thewhole point of the conversation
is stop obsessing about beingbrave and just get your ish
done. Like, that's really andhere's the thing. And going back
to other conversations we'vehad, doing the dang thing, it's
hard because it's easy. You wantit to be harder than it actually
is because actually goingthrough the motions and doing

(49:06):
whatever it is that you'resupposed to be doing, that's not
a lot of effort. What you'reconcerned about is sitting with
uncomfortable feelings.
What you're concerned about isrejection. What you're concerned
about is am I already too late?Well, none of those things are
gonna change. You just gotta go.So, George, I'm curious.
What's the one thing you wantpeople to take away from this
episode? Or do you want me to gofirst?

I'll go first because mine's simple. Look for
ways that you can be alive. Lookfor ways that you can take
action. Look for ways where,again, you're not thinking about
being brave, but because you arealive and you are a human who
takes actions. I am a human whotakes actions.

(49:50):
I am a human who is brave. I ama human who embraces discomfort.
Just be alive and take theactions you need to take.

My one thing from the episode is this, you're
already brave. I guarantee you,if you were to look back at your
own life right now, you couldmake a pretty substantial list
of moments where you know andcan see now you were brave. And
in the moment, you did not feelbrave. Bravery is kind of like a
recession. You can really onlydeclare a recession after it's

(50:20):
already occurred.
You're probably not gonna feelbrave about something until
after it's already happened.Look back at your own life. You
will find more evidence of youbeing a brave whole ass human
than a scaredy cat. And guesswhat? If you even find evidence
of, like, man, I could have beenmore brave.
Fantastic. Lesson learned.Congratulations. You're a human

(50:42):
being. You're not gonna beperfect all the time.
None of us can be imperfectionis exhausting and boring. Your
goal this week, my challenge toyou is to champion the moments
where you were brave and didn'tgive yourself that pat on the
back because you earned it. Youreally did. And then, put
bravery out of your mind.Recognize bravery in retrospect.

(51:04):
Don't seek it out as you looktowards your future.

Yeah. There you go. I mean, listen. If
you're listening to thispodcast, you're focused on
personal growth. You're tryingto develop yourself to be the
best human.
You're trying to develop yourlifestyle to be a life that
you're living beyond yourdefault. Bravery is the doorway
to improving your decisionmaking along the way. It's the
doorway to enabling you toactivate problem solving skills

(51:32):
that you're gonna need when thehills and valleys of life.
Bravery is going to be thedoorway that helps you
strengthen relationships andhelps you build inner trust and
outer trust. It's gonna be thedoorway that creates this
positive change that you'regoing through.
It's the doorway to the passionand purpose that you need. Just

(51:55):
be brave. Open up the door andwalk that path to a life beyond
your default.

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