January 1, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast, host Jason Woodard welcomes Matt Lucas, President and CEO of Our Daily Bread Ministries.
They discuss Matt's unexpected career path from aspiring educator to leading a major global ministry, emphasizing the role of faith and biblical principles in leadership. Matt shares insights on managing a large, diverse team and coping with the intricacies of an international ministry, including dealing with geopolitical challenges.
The conversation also delves into Matt’s personal faith journey, his approach to leadership, his family life, and the importance of humility and teachability. Listeners will gain valuable lessons on leading with a servant's heart and fostering a cohesive, efficient team while staying true to spiritual values.
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Episode Transcript
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Jason (00:00):
Happy new year, welcome to 2025.
And to the biblical leadershipat work podcast.
I'm your host, Jason watered.
And this month's episode, wewill meet Matt Lucas, president
and CEO of our daily breadministries.
Listen in, as we learn aboutMatt's unusual career trajectory
and how God led him to lead thisrenowned and influential
(00:23):
ministry.
Matt.
We'll also share some insightfulways in which he tries to lead
with biblical principles, aswell as sharing a bit about how
the ministry is organized andstructured.
I hope you will find thisconversation as edifying and
insightful as I did.
All right.
Well, Matt Lucas, brother.
(00:43):
I appreciate you taking the timeto join me today.
Matt is the CEO of Our DailyBread Ministries, and I'm super
excited to have you on the showtoday, brother.
Thank you for joining me.
Matt (00:54):
Thank you.
Glad to be here,
Jason (00:55):
So let's get started.
Like I always do.
Tell me about your careerbackground and maybe go back to
university college just afterhigh school and run us through
what you What the Lord did toget you to, uh, leading that
great organization that I thinkmany of us, if not all of us are
familiar with.
Matt (01:14):
well, it's definitely one that was unplanned.
Even though I was a young boy, Ihad dreams of one day being a
CEO.
I can remember that I was veryentrepreneurial.
But by the time I was in highschool and early college, I
decided I wanted to be ateacher.
And I was really interested inEnglish.
And so I did my undergraduateand my master's and my doctorate
(01:35):
all in English literature.
And, uh, what Right through thatback to back to back, um, was
done by, I was 26 and wasthinking about going and
teaching at a college in acollege or university,
particularly small Christianuniversity.
Um, my dream was to be in theclassroom for 50 years at
teaching students.
Um, before I ended up there, Itaught high school for a few
(01:57):
years.
Um, I completed my coursework by26.
I had to take a couple moreyears to finish up my
dissertation, so I did that.
I was, um, in, uh.
Teaching high school and reallyloved it and really felt like,
you know, whether it's highschool or college wanted to do
that was invited back about 10years after graduating from my
alma mater to my alma mater and,uh, was, uh, teaching was
(02:20):
actually asked to lead right offthe bat is in an administrative
position.
And I would do a little bit ofteaching, but it wouldn't be in
English literature.
Um, so I said yes, because Ithought this would be a way back
to the classroom and did thatand started out as a director of
the first graduate program atCorbett University.
(02:41):
And from there out, it was justthis long process of getting
further and further away fromthe classroom and never being
able to get
Jason (02:50):
and was Cor, you said it was Corbin university.
That's where you got youreducation
Matt (02:54):
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's in Salem, Oregon.
It's a small Christian liberalarts school, um, similar to
Cornerstone, which I believethat
Jason (03:02):
Yeah.
That's where I, uh, yeah, I gotmy MBA from Cornerstone.
Love that school.
Matt (03:06):
Yeah, so both schools are sister schools in the sense that
they're related to the samedenomination, at least
affiliated in the background.
So I was aware at Cornerstonewhen I was, actually, I thought
about it one time going toCornerstone in my undergraduate
years.
Okay.
Before I started.
Jason (03:20):
So, it, you were doing administrative leadership at
Corbin and then, um, So how,then what happened?
Why did you
Matt (03:27):
So, yes.
Jason (03:28):
did you go from there to our daily bread?
Nope.
Matt (03:34):
I was, I'm a director.
I'm 32 years old and I'm servingas a director and I've never
done, never, I've never led in aformal role and I had to start a
program from scratch in threemonths, had to hire people, had
to lead faculty, And I'm, yeah,I'm just making this up as I go
trying to figure it out.
Thankfully, I had a really goodmentor.
My my boss, the dean ofeducation was a phenomenal
(03:57):
leader, strong woman and reallywas good.
She had raised sons and she wasreally good at mentoring young
men.
Um, just natural at it.
And so she spent a lot of timeencouraging me.
And so from there, two yearslater, she stepped away into
into the provost role at theuniversity and suggested I take
on the dean role that shevacated.
(04:18):
And my first response was no, Iwant to go to the classroom.
Um, but six months later, I'mlike, Okay, I'm doing the job as
the interim dean of miles wouldtake the title.
So I do that for two years andShe leaves to go to another
university and vacates theprovost position, and she
suggested to my futurepresident, or my current
(04:38):
president, but my future boss,that, hey, you should look at at
Matt Lucas.
And I was actually on my way toIndonesia to go Be a dean in
liberal arts and teach it teachEnglish.
Like I I'm going to Indonesia togo back to the classroom and be
a dean and Anyway, a lot.
It was a long story how it allworked out.
I'm becoming Provost.
I'm 36 years old.
I'm a Provost I have no desireto this was not my trajectory
(05:00):
But yeah, I think other peoplesaw some leadership skills
administrative skills in me andI just started discovering that
I, um, yeah, it just wasnatural.
So from there, from provost toexecutive vice president.
From executive vice president, Ileft there and went on to
Indiana Wesleyan Universitywhere I was chancellor there.
Uh, Indiana Wesleyan is thelargest Christian school in the
(05:22):
CCCU.
Coalition of Christian Collegesand Universities, or I'm sorry,
the Coalition Council forChristian Colleges and
Universities.
And, um, yeah, did that for fiveyears and then was headhunted
from there into this role, whichI was not, you know, I was not
looking at one time.
I thought I might leaveChristian higher education and
go to a nonprofit position, butwas not looking for this and,
(05:45):
um, and surprised as probably asurprise to the next person that
I'm in this role.
Yeah, it's
Jason (05:50):
How long ago was that, Matt?
Matt (05:52):
Yeah, so March 1st of 2022 is when I started, so it's about
two and a half years from thetaping of this.
I've been in this role and it'sbeen a good fit.
I can really see and look backin my life how God used this or
prepared me for this role.
Um, when I was a young man, um,before I was still in college, I
wanted, I was, I had aspirationsto write devotionals and to do,
(06:16):
um, curriculum like that.
They weren't very good.
Um, so, but over the years Ikept doing that.
I would write, you know, I'dwrite devotionals, write little
things like that throughout.
And, you know, by the time I wasat Indiana Wesleyan University,
I was doing that on a regularbasis in my role for, for the
school, for the university, formy employees.
And I told my wife, I would loveto be in a place where I could
(06:38):
do this.
You know, it's a core part of myjob.
It's interesting on here.
I do write for our devotionalmaterial, but I don't do it as
much as I would like to do it.
The job doesn't give me thefreedom to do that kind of
reflection, right?
But I do get the opportunity.
It's kind of hard to say no tothe president when he says he's
going to write for the forcontent that and they're
(06:58):
gracious.
They want me to, but you kind ofcan say, Hey, um, yeah, I'm the
CEO.
I'd like to do
Jason (07:03):
So I think that, I think that most people, if not
everyone listening is familiarwith Our Daily Bread, but as
because we have it in ourchurch's material that's handed
out, can you talk though alittle bit about the
organization?
I mean there's a wholeorganization, so size,
structure, I'd be very, I'm veryinterested in what that looks
like.
Matt (07:23):
Yeah, I think most people, yeah, I think a lot of people
are familiar with us because ofour devotion.
Um, we're much bigger than that.
We're, we're really a Bibleengagement ministry.
We have 700 employees around theworld.
Um, we've got 32 offices, uh,working about 58 languages, um,
over 150 countries.
So we're about Bible engagementsin all aspects, all forms,
(07:44):
across all channels, across allmedia.
So we got a media group, we gota multimedia audiovisual group,
um, that does feature lengthfilms.
We've got, um, we do contentcurriculum for churches, we do
the devotional, uh, we do socialmedia, digital, you know, you
can just go on and on.
So we got a book publishinghouse, we do about five million
(08:05):
dollars, five and a half milliondollars in revenue about a year.
Uh, And that's just for thepublishing and just printing of
books that we sell.
So, uh, we're about an 80million, um, total ministry, um,
around the world.
So it's a, it's a, people arealways surprised that we're much
bigger than we are and much morecomplex.
So when you have offices aroundthe world, more people work
(08:28):
outside the United States, theinside the United States.
Jason (08:31):
That was one thing I was going to ask was how many work
like there.
You're, because you're located,you sit, Around in Grand Rapids
is what in that location whereyou're at.
Matt (08:40):
Yeah, so our office here, we have about 275, 280 employees
here in Grand Rapids.
The rest are outside.
Um, I do a lot of travel.
And if I'm not traveling, I'm onzoom or working with teams
across the world.
And so in addition to justleading, you know, it's a
midsize business.
Ministry, actually probably oneof the larger ministries as far
(09:02):
as comparing ourselves to other,um, as far as the size and
scope, um, to other ministries,but The complexity of actually
having employees on the grounddoing the work, you know,
writing content, doing Bibleengagement ministries around the
world in various contexts.
Yeah, it just creates for a lotof opportunities for, um,
engaging people and workingthrough challenges.
(09:25):
Usually there's some problemsomewhere in the world that's
creating an issue for our teamsthat we have to work through,
whether it's geopolitical,economic, or just, you know,
Disasters, you know, we had a,you know, an office in Jamaica
got hit by the, uh, earthquakeflooding in Taiwan affected our
Taiwanese office, Myanmar withthe civil unrest affected our is
(09:46):
affecting right now are ourUkrainian office.
We're having to re we'reactually starting to shut that
down because we just can'tcontinue to work there and
pivoting towards, you know,probably Romania or somewhere
else.
So I mean, yeah, there's alwayssomething somewhere that's
creating additional challengesfor the work we
Jason (10:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, that I can't imagine.
Yeah, that is complex.
How what?
What is the kind of average sizeof offices that are in those
areas?
Half a dozen people or two orthree people like what's that
look like in those areas?
Matt (10:13):
Yeah, so some of our largest offices like Singapore,
Indonesia, um, Brazil, um, over40 people.
Um, some of our smaller offices,you know, can have one to two
people.
Probably the average size isabout 10 to 12.
Um, so yeah, you know,Australia, um, has got close to
19.
So yeah, we The United Kingdom,um, a little over 20.
(10:36):
So it's a, each office is uniqueand engages, um, with their, you
know, with their audience andwith the work that they're doing
on the ground, the churches alittle bit differently.
Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, just,you know, yeah, depending on the
size, you can do certain things,but in a lot of ways there's,
there's a replication of theministry, even on a small team
(10:58):
like Sri Lanka that has fourpeople, five people.
Um, They're doing in microcosmwhat we're doing here at Grand
Rapids in a lot of itstranslation, um, or
contextualization on their end,but they also do a lot of
writing and content that's justspecific to the Sri Lankan
office working with volunteersand churches.
Jason (11:17):
Well, I know that's surprising to me.
I mean, you just, like I said,you see the material, you're
familiar with it, but I don'tknow the business behind it.
And that is a pretty complex,especially being spread out
around the world like that.
Um, tell us a little bit aboutyour family, Matt.
What's that.
situation look like?
Matt (11:31):
Yeah, so my wife and I have been married for 31 years.
We have six girls.
Um, two of them are adopted andwe have three grandchildren.
Um, the, uh, grant our oldestdaughter is adopted into the
family when she was a teenager.
So, And young, you know, so shecame in when we still had little
girls.
So I'm not that old.
Um, but, uh, yeah, it's beengreat having having her.
(11:54):
She actually was one of my highschool students.
Jason (11:56):
Okay,
Matt (11:57):
year teaching.
So she was a couch surfer.
I taught, I coached soccer.
So she actually married one ofmy soccer players, um, captain
of the soccer team.
So I've known them since theywere, you know, 14.
Jason (12:10):
nice.
Matt (12:11):
foolish.
Um, and then, yeah, we have, andthen we have another daughter
that we adopted from Namibia.
She brought her into our family,um, when she came here to the
States and she didn't haveanywhere to go and so we just
brought her into our family.
And then we have another 20, soshe's 27 or about to turn 27.
We got another 27-year-oldthat's our biological daughter,
and then a 24-year-old, and thentwin, identical twin girls who
(12:35):
are 20, about to turn 21.
Jason (12:39):
Nice.
Matt (12:39):
and then like three.
Yeah, three.
I don't leave our grandkids out.
You know, it's yeah, so we'vegot a 12 year old 10 year old
and a little eight year old.
So, but they're in Oregon.
So I don't get to
Jason (12:49):
Oh, okay.
Grandkids are the greatest.
We've got two that are five andone, and it's a what a joy.
yeah, and they're local, so wecan see him quite a bit.
And it's huge blessing for sure.
What about your faith, Matt?
Like, what's your faithbackground?
How'd you come to know the Lord?
Maybe denominational background.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Matt (13:07):
Yeah, my parents are led to the Lord by Southern Baptist
missionaries.
We were in my dad was in themilitary station in Taiwan.
And, um, yeah, Southern Baptistmissionaries led the First, my
mom and then him to the Lord.
And so like any Southern Baptistthat we were taught, you know,
they were taught as soon as youget to a new, um, service
(13:27):
station, the first thing you dois look for a Southern Baptist
church.
Usually first, you know, firstBaptist church of wherever we
lived.
So as we moved around the world,we would, we would go there.
My parents were really, youknow, they were, you know,
about, um, raising us up in a,in a Christian home.
And so I was fortunate to that.
And, um, but it wasn't until it,so I grew up Baptist.
(13:49):
Uh, I would, I would have saidSouthern Baptist, but by the
time I went to, uh, as a highschool, we were living in, um,
the Northwest, um, you know, theUnited States and there Southern
Baptist.
There's not a lot of SouthernBaptists in the Pacific
Northwest.
And so we end up going to achurch that's actually, as I was
mentioning to you earlier, isassociated with the General
Association of Regular Baptists,which are behind both
(14:12):
Cornerstone and CorbinUniversity.
So, um, they, this happened tobe at the church in our
neighborhood, in our area, um,parents liked this church.
So we went there, um, and, uh,Yeah, I went off to university,
which again, Corbin and wantedto go to Christian University
and that's where I met my wife.
Um, she, uh, she was alsoraised, she wasn't raised
(14:32):
bachelors, but raised in a smallvillage missions church, lives
in a very rural area of Oregon,but really grounded in her
faith.
And, um, yeah, so yeah, we didthat.
We raised our girls, um, in aBaptistic churches.
Um, and, uh.
Yeah, I've really beenfortunate.
I was able to serve as an elderand, you know, Sunday school
director and small group leader,men's ministry leader.
(14:56):
So I've done, yeah, I've beeninvolved in a number of areas
with the church, led youth groupfor a number of years.
Um, it's been interesting thelast couple of years because of
our moving, we're still gettingacclimated.
We've landed at a church, um,it's non denominational, um,
here in town.
But, uh, still trying to figureout what that, what it looks
like to be engaged in churchwhile doing full time ministry.
(15:17):
And yeah, I travel a lot aroundthe world.
And so as I travel, how do Ibalance that and, um, Yeah.
the demands of work.
Jason (15:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Serving in ministry.
And yeah, that's that I found wemoved, we made one major move in
our life and it wasn't a longways away, but far enough where
we find to find a new church.
And that was the biggestchallenge for us.
That was out of everything.
You know, our, we were prettydeeply grounded in the church.
Our kids grew up in and we movedwhen they were our two oldest
were teenagers.
(15:47):
And that's a, that's huge.
That's a
Matt (15:49):
Yeah, I think a lot of people, I mean, I think for us,
we underestimated thatchallenge.
I mean, we were so, I mean, thechurch in Oregon was our church
family at such a deep level.
And yeah, when you, you know,when you leave it, you know, and
you long for what that communitywas like, um, and you come into
(16:10):
new communities where you're notknown and people have grown up
and, you know, you're coming inat a different stage of life.
It is, it is more difficult.
So, um, But yeah, it's been a,it's been a learning experience.
I mean, because of that, my wifeparticularly has gravitated more
towards newer people coming intothe church and international
people, because we've done a lotof work internationally over
(16:32):
our, over the years that we'vebeen either my job or just our
own ministry, personal ministry.
And so that's kind of been wherewe found, started to create
that, you know, community.
But, uh, yeah, it's verydifferent than what we had in
Oregon.
Jason (16:46):
No, I think the same thing.
We underestimated the impact itwould have on ourselves and our
kids, but the Lord grew us in alot of ways through that.
Hey, uh, a topic of leadership,Matt, when you think about
leadership and your ownemphasis.
I guess your own, you know, coreprinciples.
What are, What are, those?
what what are your, the corethings that you go back to as a
leader?
Yeah.
Matt (17:11):
for over 20 years in leadership roles, and I've I
think probably the best way I'vetried to get me just like I got
a lot of things I kind of, youknow, hooks and things that I
grab as I'm leading, but Ialways come back to my
definition of leadership that Iuse, which is to serve and
shepherd a team so they canaccomplish more than they think
(17:32):
possible for a better future.
And I think there's some keyaspects of that.
So one is serving andshepherding.
Um, I like to talk about both ofthose partly because I'm wired
pastorally.
People have called that out inmy life.
Um, I will not be surprised atsome point in my life in the
future that I don't end uppastoring, um, full time or in
(17:53):
some way in a church.
Um, but yeah, I like that kindof shepherding aspect of caring
for people and really helping.
Nurture and encourage them.
Call out the best in them.
And then of course serving, Imean, doing that in a way that
is about them.
And then I like to talk a lotabout team.
Um, you know.
My greatest success is reallythe success of the team.
(18:14):
And when they do great things,I'd love to see it.
Love to celebrate that.
Love it to be about them.
And really, I, I feel greatwhen, you know, I'm in the
background and I can point tothe work that they've done and
say, Hey, they've beenphenomenal.
I had a point to that.
And I think it's reallyimportant to realize that team
really helps you accomplishmore.
Like that's, I always tell myteam, if, if it's, if you're not
(18:37):
asking to do this thing morethan you think possible, then
why do they need you?
Right?
What, what, what people need.
Whoever that is, someone to comeand say, Hey, we can do what we
don't think is possible rightnow.
And then it has to be for abetter future, right?
Because you can lead in anydifferent direction you want to,
but if it's not pointing to abetter future for us as
followers of Jesus, right?
(18:57):
I mean, that better future isboth a life transformation in
Christ, but also one thatactually impacts the kingdom.
So So yeah, for me, all I tried,I came up with this about eight
or nine years ago.
I was trying to think about likewhat, like when I think about
leadership, what are the corethings that kind of baked that
together?
And yeah, I go back to that alot.
(19:17):
I just asked myself, how am Idoing on that?
Where's that?
Where's that going?
And, um, and then as I talkwith, you know, my team, like,
okay, this is what we're tryingto do.
This is why I, how I'm trying tolead us.
Then as you lead your team, youcan come up with your own
definition, but the goal is atsome point you got to get it.
The goal is to get that team tocome together and to do
something more than they thoughtpossible, or they don't they
(19:40):
don't need you.
Look at somebody else.
Yeah.
Jason (19:46):
one of the things I've learned, I'm just curious on
your thoughts on this, causeI've had to learn this, is.
soliciting the input of the teamin that kind of that vision
development, right?
And not just, Hey, I'm gonnacome as a leader and I have this
totally formed, developedvision.
This is what, This is what Ineed you to help me to get to
type of thing versus, you know,what does better look like for
(20:10):
whatever the organization is.
I work in for profit, you workin nonprofit, but as you said,
you know, as leaders, we have tobe moving forward.
to improve.
It's like in our personal walkwith Christ, the sanctification
that never stops.
Have you, what Have you, learnedthrough that?
Or what what's your thoughts on,you know, how do you, how do you
hone and develop that
Matt (20:29):
Yeah, that's a great question, Jason, because I
thought about that.
I've given that a lot ofthought, especially this new
role.
And I look back in my youngeryears and You know, being young,
being thrust into leadership.
I was leading people that I was.
I was the youngest facultymember and I was asked to be the
provost.
Jason (20:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're in charge.
Matt (20:46):
I'm like, you know, so so there's a sense of insecurity
and trying to Hey, I know whatI'm doing.
And, you know, looking back, Ihad ideas and had a vision for
that look like, but I reallyfelt like I had to do that, even
though I knew all the rightlanguage.
I had read the books.
I was reading the books.
It's hard to kind of really.
Push your put yourself at avery, you know, humble yourself,
(21:08):
lower your ego and really beabout the team.
So while that definitionprobably that I had just gave
us, you know, leading a team sothey can accomplish more than
that possible, like I would say,I could maybe think that, but I
really wasn't practicing that ona real heart level.
So I could see when my heartwould like, Oh, I really want to
strive here.
I want to people know that I'mdoing this.
(21:29):
I'm feeling insecure.
Some of that comes with age.
You just, I grew up and juststarted realizing, hey, you
know, just getting older is, youknow, some wisdom.
Uh, but then really the Lord isdoing a work in my life and just
saying, you know, and reallylistening to where my heart
really was and where as much asI could know my heart and
recognizing that I fully know myheart.
(21:52):
And just being sensitive to thatand say, okay, you know what, I
don't, I do sometimes want tostrive out in front and how do
I, how I lower that?
So now in this role, I'm 50, 52,about to turn 53.
And, um, I, there's this balanceand you probably experienced it
yourself.
There are moments when I have tolead.
And if I don't, there's a,there's a vacuum and I'm doing a
(22:13):
disservice to the team and I'mdoing disservice to my role.
And this is what God's called meto.
Conversely, there are timeswhen, hey, I need to step back
and let others lead.
And the way I've kind of workedthrough that is just really
trying to walk in step with theLord, listening to what the Holy
Spirit might be saying in thatmoment.
Um, sometimes it's exhausting.
(22:35):
So I'm really just trying tolisten in that moment.
So I talked about the team.
I talked about this a lot.
Here's another principle Italked about, which is the
definition of humility or thatwhat humility looks like is that
is humility isn't being is beingthe right size for the situation
at the right time, becausesometimes you need to be bigger
and sometimes you need to besmaller and humility coupled
(22:57):
with wisdom allows you to knowwhere that is.
So if I'm too small for asituation where that calls me to
be bigger, to use my talents, mygifts, then I'm not doing it
well.
Conversely, if I'm too big, whenthe situations should be, I
should be much smaller.
So I think that that's probablybeen the lesson that I've
constantly asked myself, okay,Matt, how big do I need to be
(23:18):
here?
Sometimes it's listening to theteam.
Sometimes it's listening to theLord.
And say, okay, I've got to stepup here or no, I
Jason (23:27):
I like that a lot.
I like that a lot.
I hadn't heard that said thatway, but I found that when, you
know, there's good momentum onmy team and they're working good
together, moving towards thatvision.
I mean, I need to step out, stepout of their way and watch.
them like you said, andcelebrate and watch.
And it is so rewarding to juststep back and watch it happen.
(23:48):
Because we've all, yeah, we've,we've put the plan in place.
Everybody knows their roles.
They work together.
And yeah, I like that a lot.
Knowing, knowing when to be.
Yeah.
Matt (24:00):
I like what you said, Jason, about stepping back.
I think what really, I can'tremember when that moment was
this late in my time at Corbin,when I really just really made
the transition and saying, youknow what?
My greatest moment of success asa leader is when I see the team
winning.
Like, I just started looking forthat more and more.
(24:21):
It's like when that's happeningand that for me, that was
counterintuitive to my ego.
Kind of like I wanted to be inthe limelight and I just started
looking.
Okay, when, when, does thathappen?
And I just started gettingexcited about.
So now I hunt for it.
I'm, I'm constantly looking forthat.
And I've discovered, I mean,there's still my ego.
I'll be honest.
There's times I want to berecognized and, you know, Even
in looking for other people'ssuccess, I can quickly turn that
(24:46):
and corrupt that into, yeah, I'mlooking for people's success so
it could be about my success.
But when I'm truly genuinely inthat moment and just like, Hey,
they are doing awesome.
I've seen God's given talentjust manifest themselves that
they're doing something thatthey didn't think was possible.
And I get excited about that.
Jason (25:05):
Yeah.
Matt (25:05):
that's that's when I'm in my sweet spot.
And for me, then everythingjust, I, I can find myself just
disappearing and like, that'sawesome.
So, Yeah,
Jason (25:16):
didn't, they didn't, they don't need you right now.
They got it.
That's good.
Yeah, no, that's, that'sabsolutely right.
Hey, when Matt, when you were ayoung leader, what was something
as you look back now and youreally struggled with and maybe
you've already touched on alittle bit, but do you still
struggle with it?
Some, what have you done toovercome it?
Like, what was something as ayoung leader really, you know,
you battled, struggled
Matt (25:37):
Yeah.
I mean, definitely what wasbeing thrust into the leadership
the way it was there, there wasa sense of insecurity and
inferiority and trying to figurethat out.
Definitely coming to terms withthat was a, um, a major issue.
You know, my mentor, um,probably the thing, one of the
things that she would say to meis that, um, like one of the
(25:59):
things where guides wire me isthat I can usually connect
things quicker than most peoplein the room.
It's just, I, this has alwaysbeen the case.
I can see the dots.
Um, and because I could do that.
I would quickly and then my egois like I want people to know
that I've connected the dotsquicker than everybody else in
the room.
And really trying to not getlike that became a major issue.
(26:21):
So, and then that's dangerous,right?
So just because you connect thedots doesn't mean you're
connecting the right way.
Jason (26:26):
Right.
Matt (26:27):
And you you might not have a full perspective on that.
And so I think that's probablybeen an area.
I still battle with that attimes that I could be in a room.
I've had people say that they'rejust like Matt.
It's amazing how quick you canprocess information.
And I it's easy to say, Oh, I'mreally good at that.
But there is that dark side,which is you don't connect the
right dots.
(26:48):
You don't have the fullperspective.
And even if you do have thosethings down, man, my ego can
quickly corrupt that in waysthat aren't healthy.
So really, so what she wouldcounsel me to do is she said,
you have to ask more questions.
You've got to, you've got toslow down.
And I would say I'm still a workin progress on that.
Um, and really trying to say,okay, what's the right question
to ask here first, rather thansaying, okay, I can see this.
(27:12):
Thanks.
And.
But what I find when I'm, whenI'm at my best in that moment is
when I can ask certainquestions, step back, and when I
try to practice this, I don'talways do it well, and pray,
say, God, what, what is it thatyou're seeing here?
And do I need to say something?
Or do I need to let that emergefrom the team?
Jason (27:30):
Yeah.
Matt (27:31):
And then try to be in step with that.
Um, like that's been.
That's been a challenge andthere's, there's under stress.
I will definitely default to thedarker side.
But when I, when I'm in, whenI'm in, in the word on a regular
basis, I'm really listening tospirit.
There's a sense of like, okay,yeah, that's, that's when I'm,
(27:52):
God's using me at the best, atmy best potential.
Jason (27:55):
Yeah.
I haven't, when you know, inyour head, you have the answer,
staying curious and askingquestions and not just getting
to that answer to that end game.
That's yeah.
I think that curiosity piece hasbeen something I've had to learn
is ask.
Matt (28:09):
That's a better way of saying, you said it in a few
words, but it took me too longto say.
Jason (28:13):
Uh, I think that's, I, I relate to that to just be
curious and ask questions andnot make, yeah, just cause I
have to jump to conclusions andthey're wrong.
Sometimes they're right, but uh,too often they're wrong and you
don't let people kind of walkthrough the process, the
thinking process, so one of thethings I wanted to ask you about
is your spiritual disciplines.
Like what do you do on a daily,weekly basis, uh, to stay close
(28:36):
to the Lord and grow, keepgrowing, sanctification, growing
in holiness.
and what does that look like ona practical level for you?
Matt (28:43):
Um, yeah.
Practical level.
So for us, we're a Bibleengagement ministry.
So, you know, when I came here,I said, we have to practice what
we profess.
I mean, it would be reallystrange that we're talking about
this and then we don't do it.
And, you know, as a CEO, itstarts with me about what does
that really look like?
And, you know, fortunately, I'vecome into ministry where that's
(29:04):
already a natural part of mylife.
I'm always growing in that andis able to, you know, just
continue that.
Um, you know, You know, youknow, regular, just sort of
prayer.
Um, one of the things that I, soI, I do those things.
I don't always do it perfectly.
I'm, I'm the CEO of our dailybread ministries.
And there's days that I get toobusy and run out the door.
Like, I'll get to that later.
And I don't, you know, I don't,and I always pay for it.
(29:26):
I always pay for it.
Um, so, um, or I might get bywith it for one day.
Like, okay, that way then it'slike, you know, but it'll come
back.
Right.
So, So I think really what I'vebeen working on lately is really
trying to slow myself down andstill myself and like just even
today I was just noticingbefore, you know, about an hour
(29:47):
before this, um, my mind wasracing and just got the phone
call and it's realized that Ireally hadn't spent time praying
as much as I should be.
Thought I had been praying aboutthe very thing that we were
talking about.
And so really just trying topause in the middle of that
moment, just say, okay, I'mgoing to, I need to step down.
I need to be quiet for fiveminutes, try to still my mind,
(30:08):
not let it race to the nextthing.
So that's one.
And then the other side is, um,I, and I have a fortunate that I
could do this, is that in aministry like ours, um, I've
been in a Christian ministry inleadership my entire life.
I can, I can stop a meeting.
And say, you know what?
I think we're stuck right here.
We're pausing.
We're going to pray.
(30:28):
And I've been, and sometimes Idon't do that with the large
group.
I'll just do it for myself andI'll let them keep talking.
I'm just like, I just, I need topray.
And really trying to practice.
So when James says, if any of uswisdom, let him ask about, he'll
give it to you like to, if Ireally believe that promise,
then how do I actually live intothat?
So that kind of, you know, soyeah, I was speaking to our
(30:52):
audience like, Hey, if you hadthat moment and you had your,
especially if you're in aChristian setting where you can
actually do this verbally,vocally, out loud, do it because
man, it's been, our teams willalways say that, you know, that
when we do that, it, the HolySpirit comes in and does things,
you know, In ways that, yeah, itchanges the conversation or it
(31:13):
gives us clarity.
Even if things are like, stop.
Okay.
We just have a sense like, Hey,we need to stop here.
We're going to do somethingdifferent.
Um, so yeah, I think that'sdiligent, really listening day
by day, practicing the presenceof the Holy Spirit on a regular
basis has been probably the keything I'd be coming back to.
Jason (31:33):
Um, another leadership topic.
Who do you follow?
Who do you read, podcast, listento?
What are some recommendationsyou would have for the audience
to help you stay sharp as aleader?
Matt (31:45):
Yeah.
You know, if you were sittinghere looking at my desk, I had a
small bookshelf right next to mehere of, of books that I come
back to and, and behind me I gota leadership bookshelf.
What's interesting, the booksthat are probably the most
influential have actually beenbooks that don't directly
address leadership.
Um, so.
(32:06):
One of my favorites is, um,Visions of Vocation, uh, by
Steve Garber, which really talksabout the idea of how do you,
like, what, what does vocationlook like?
And he says basically vocationis a calling of loving the world
despite knowing it in all of itsugliness.
So I, as I talk with leaders,you know, ODBM, I mean, our
(32:28):
deliberate ministries, thelonger I'm here, the more I know
it.
And I know how the sausage ismade and I know the weaknesses.
Can I love it?
In spite of all that, and Ithink that's that's the way to
avoid cynicism because I thinkit's leaders easy to become
cynical.
So that's the key book.
Another one is called the Jcurve by Paul Miller.
It's a great book just on justas a Pauline theology, very
(32:53):
practical and what she justtalks about the shape of the
gospel is a J curve, both death,burial and resurrection.
It's very simple idea, but.
Miller just really kind ofelaborates on it, really goes
deep on that.
And in fact, last week I wastalking about leadership and we
were talking about changemanagement.
I just used the J curve as abiblical principle, but I talked
about that in change management.
And then I talked about thatfrom a biblical perspective,
(33:15):
what was really going on indeath, burial, and resurrection.
So for me, it's been thosebooks.
Um, you know, another one hasbeen Life Together by Dietrich
Bonhoeffer.
And that's just been, you know,a great book.
Transformative book that I comeback to over and over and over
again, especially chapter one soI could go on I would say the
last one that I like I said, Igot about 15 of them here that
(33:37):
like I just looking at the shelfI go.
Oh, yeah, that's the key pointthat I have here.
But one that I would reallyencourage people to to really
consider looking at is dangerouscalling ball by Paul David Tripp
who this is probably this iswritten for passers and Chapter
four, I think if you're inleadership, particularly in
Christian leadership, reallygoing deep into chapter four and
(33:59):
Paul Tripp really just gets intoknowing the leader's heart.
And he's just got a whole listof questions.
And, um, it's good questions forme.
They're good questions for myteam.
There's the questions thatpeople should be asking me in
leadership.
It's easy to say, Oh, Matt's gottogether.
He's the CEO of our ministries.
(34:21):
I need those questions and yeah,Tripp just does a good job and
he's really worked with a lot ofpastors who's fallen and just
seen ministries implode.
He worked with the Mars HillDriscoll's Church out in Seattle
and I was connected and kind ofwatched that at the front row
seat implode.
And after that and another issueof the church I was dealing
with, I read that book and Imean that book, chapter four.
(34:45):
It's, I think it's essential forany Christian leader.
Like you've, you've got towrestle with that book and you
got to wrestle with that withyour team.
Um, so yeah, that would be my,like I said, I got like 12
others that I'd love to talkabout.
So
Jason (35:00):
No, that's great.
One of the things you mentionedthat I want to go back to that I
think is, was, was, uh, prettyimpactful in my life and I think
I still see it impact people isthis.
As you, as people get anopportunity to take on
leadership roles in ministry.
So, and I think specificallylocal church ministry
leadership, at least for me, andI've seen this happen with
(35:22):
others, there's a rude awakeningsometimes of some of the
problems and sins and strugglesthat are happening in the church
that.
that the typical parishioner arecompletely unaware of and and
and rightfully so.
(35:44):
And when when I can remember,you know, it was what 20
probably 20 years ago when Ifirst was asked to serve, you
know, as a deacon.
So you began to see some of thesome of the broken relationships
and the struggles within thechurch and it and it can Cause
you to become cynical.
it can, it will challenge yourfaith a little bit and that you
(36:05):
thought, I thought all thesepeople were just, you know, they
come to church and they'redressed up real nice and
everything looks great onSunday.
And then, you know, you startworking behind the scenes and,
and either among the leadershipteam, I've seen some awful,
awful bitterness and I'm, I'msure you've seen and been
involved in some of those horrorstories, but then also just.
(36:26):
It's just getting pulled intosome of the brokenness within
the church to minister to thosepeople.
Um, and I, and I've seen, I meanthat was, I want to say a little
bit shocking to me at first, andI've seen, for other people it
to be shocking, and I just wantto talk about that for a minute,
especially for those who maybeare going through that or are
going to go through that, thatit's, I don't want to say it's
(36:47):
normal in a way that we shouldjust accept it, but it's, it's,
uh, it's, you know, there'sstill, there's still sin in
people's hearts.
There's still destructive thingsthat happen even within the
church.
But, I mean, talk about, Iguess, your experience with that
and maybe what advice would yougive someone?
This is my, my point I want tomake or the advice I want to
give is for someone who is maybemoving into or will be moving
(37:10):
into a church leadership roleand get some of that same, they
see how the sausage is made alittle bit and see some of the
things that um, that they'resurprised to see.
Matt (37:18):
yeah, no, that's, that's, that's a great question.
It's insightful question.
It's one that usually anybody.
I've thought about this a lotbecause oftentimes when people
come to a Christian ministry,they're like, Hey, I was working
in the secular world.
I want to come to a Christianministry.
Jason (37:33):
Yes.
Yeah, it's going to be great.
It's gonna be perfect.
Matt (37:36):
you're going to run into problems.
And I actually say you'reprobably going to run into more
because on top of just the factthat we're humans, you've got
the spiritual warfare.
So that just going to beprobably even a heightened sense
of this.
This is the reason why, um,Bonhoeffer's book, A Life
Together, um, I, I wrestled withthis, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm
a young guy.
I'm leading a Christianuniversity, people who know
(37:59):
their Bible inside and out, andI'm watching people just do
things that like, that justlike, we wouldn't teach that in
the classroom.
And like, why are we behavingthis way?
So.
Jason (38:08):
Yeah.
Matt (38:10):
together.
What Bonhoeffer says and is thatthe dream community is actually
the thing that needs to diebecause the ideal can be because
the real community.
So the dream or the idealcommunity that you might have
what this should be that needsto die because the real
(38:32):
community.
of believers and all their wartsand ugliness is actually part of
your sanctification process.
So the more I just really sat, Imean, like, I mean, really, if
this really sits underneath theweight of that, which also means
my brokenness is actually partof other people's
(38:53):
sanctification.
So like, so there's that pieceof really wrestling with that.
And then there's this otherside.
Of also recognizing, well, what,what needs to change in me?
It's easy for me to identify allthe other things, but what
really needs to change in me?
And sometimes it's just longsuffering in dealing with
people's brokenness because youlike to just say, Hey, what are
you doing?
(39:14):
So then there's that piece.
So I always ask myself before Iwant to solve anything that I
see is that God, what, what inme has to change?
And that I find that thatusually takes longer than.
One minute or one day, like Ihave to really sit with that for
a while.
And then lastly, and I was justtalking with a pastor right
before this, and we were just,you know, we're unrelated to
(39:34):
this, but he said something thatI think is really true.
It's like, and then there's amoment when you, you have to do
what Jesus is calling you to doand to step into a difficult
conversation.
even if it's going to blow up.
And I think, so I think it'sthose three pieces, the death of
the dream community and livingwith the real community,
recognizing how I contribute tothat, but then also really
(39:55):
listening to the Lord saying,okay, when do I need to say
something and not measuringsaying something if it goes
well, right?
I mean, you know, actuallytoday's devotional, um, in our
The men around him in Danielchapter six could find nothing
wrong with him.
And they searched and searched.
(40:15):
And so what did they do?
So they manufactured a new lawso they can catch him praying to
his God.
Like you could be doingeverything right and still find
yourself in a situation whereyou're going to be tested and
tried because we live in afallen world.
And we sometimes as Christiansgo, well, you know, if I do the
right thing, it should be, easy.
It's like, no, it might actuallyget harder.
Jason (40:37):
Look at like Jesus lived a perfect life that did not end
well for him, right?
They hated him.
They hated him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Matt (40:45):
So I think it's those three pieces.
Dream committee has to die.
You have to be able to say, Hey,what's wrong with myself?
But then you have to askyourself, Hey, I might have to
say and do something that'sreally hard.
And it might get worse.
But am I going to be willing todo it?
But I don't think you can.
I think the problem is, is ifyou start with that third point,
Jason (41:05):
Yeah.
Matt (41:05):
you've got a problem.
You've got to start with, Hey,what has to die?
What has to change in me?
And then you're at a place whereGod probably is able to use you
to say, okay, now you couldprobably, you might be actually
seeing enough of this clearly tobe able to say something that's
Jason (41:19):
Yeah.
I love that.
No, I actually was praying aboutthat this morning in a
relationship that I have that,you know, Lord, let me, yeah,
let me have the wisdom to saywhat needs to be said.
If it needs to be said, youdirect me what to say, when to
say, and even if that means it'sgoing to, yeah, blow up if you
will.
But, but, but also help me tokeep my mouth shut.
And if, uh, It's, you know,someone I, something I have to
(41:40):
look inward on.
So that's, I'm going to get thatbook.
I'm going to download that bookto my Kindle.
I've read Bonhoeffer before.
I've not read that book, buteverything I've read that he's
written is really very, very,uh, insightful.
Okay,
Matt (41:56):
the shortest book he's written.
I mean, it's, it's, it's quick,especially the, and again, I
think the first chapter is thebest chapter.
I think the other stuff is notas, I don't find as helpful, but
chapter one, life together, man,it's good.
Jason (42:09):
Awesome.
Hey, Matt, if you had somebodywho reached out to you that, you
know, young, let's say someonewho's young in their career.
And the first time they're goingto get to be a leader.
And they're like, Hey, Matt, ifI buy you a cup of coffee, can
we meet?
And just give me some advice,generic advice on first time,
first time leadership.
I'm not, you know, I'm good tobe a supervisor or manager of a
team.
(42:29):
What advice would you give tosomebody in that situation?
Matt (42:32):
Yeah, that's kind of hard, because each situation is
different.
But you're saying general.
I think the thing that I comeback to is what I look for in a
young leader is I always lookfor how quick how teachable they
are.
Um, and so I think the questionsI would ask, we, we would, we
would How teachable are you?
Really?
I mean, are you?
I mean, if you're gonna have tolead people like you're gonna
(42:54):
start leading yourself first,and that leading yourself first
is realizing you don't have allthe answers.
So how?
How teachable are you?
Because you're gonna make themistake.
You're gonna blow it in front ofyour team.
And I've watched leaders, andI've been guilty of it doubling
down because you can't loseface.
But if you could really assessthe teachability of your own
heart and be teachable, becausethe real moment of leadership, I
(43:16):
believe.
Is when you blow it and you leteverybody know that you blow it,
you've blown it and you, youdon't say, I'm sorry, you say, I
need your forgiveness.
Please forgive me because I havewronged you.
I have done what I shouldn'thave done.
I'm not talking about a mistake.
I mean, that's different.
Those mean, but you just wellyou're, you're gonna, you're
gonna send, you're going to fallshort and you're gonna do,
(43:37):
you're gonna do your team wrong.
And I think that teachabilityallows you to just to say, hey,
I need your forgiveness becauseI have wronged you.
It's an awkward.
I've had to do that a couple oftimes, even here.
It's awkward.
No one likes it.
I don't like it.
And then everybody wants to say,Oh, it's okay.
It's okay.
(43:57):
Because you're the leader.
But I when I told I told you wasnot to stay and say no, it's not
okay.
I have wronged you.
And I'm asking you to forgive mebecause I what I did.
Doesn't line up with scriptureand it hurt you.
Jason (44:11):
Yeah.
Matt (44:11):
I think that moment when you, I think for me, that's,
that's the defining moment of, Iwatch for that in a leader.
When they do some version ofthat, that's, I think that's
what, at least in a Christiansetting, that's when, that's
when leadership starts going toa different level because you've
been able to take yourself offthat pedestal.
Jason (44:29):
Yeah.
That's huge.
That level of humility Andteachability.
That's good.
I appreciate it.
Matt (44:34):
I don't always get that right.
So I don't want to put myself ona
Jason (44:36):
you.
Matt (44:36):
there, but, uh,
Jason (44:37):
I had to do that today.
Uh, yeah, I had to go back andapologize for an overreaction I
had in a meeting and then, youknow, it's, yeah.
So I know it's, it's tough.
You know, you're wrong, but,Yeah, the Lord was working on
me, and he was, of course, he'sright.
There's some conviction there,so to go back and make that
apology.
I like that though, to go andsay, hey, I need your
forgiveness.
(44:57):
that's that's, that's a littledeeper level.
Um, two other questions for youbefore we wrap up.
One is, do you have somebody,and you don't have to answer on
the spot, uh, but if you know,that's great, you have somebody
you'd like to see on thepodcast, be a good fit?
Yeah.
Someone who's.
You know, had a few decades ofleadership under their belt like
(45:19):
yourself and that you respect asa leader and profit or non
profit.
I, uh, yeah.
Anybody you can think of?
Matt (45:26):
Yeah, there's a, actually there is someone, um, he's been
a mentor for a number of years.
His name is Vance Day, JudgeVance Day.
He's a, uh, retired judge.
He lost his judgeship because,um, he would not marry, um,
homosexual couples and paid ahigh price in Oregon for doing
that.
(45:46):
And I watched him walk throughthat.
So I would love to introduce youto him.
He, he's had a lot of leadershippositions before, went through
the fire, had leadershippositions since then, and is a
giant of the phase as far as I'mconcerned as I watched him do
that.
So yeah, I'd be happy to connectyou with him.
He would be a great person totalk to.
Jason (46:07):
That'd be great.
And then, so thank you.
And then, um, what, like, whatdo you hope people remember
about you, Matt, when you're,uh, Workplace, full time
workplace journey is done.
What do you, what do you hope,you know, as they think about
having interacted with you, workwith you, work for you, what do
you hope they'll remember?
Matt (46:25):
Uh, yeah, I think going back to my definition, I'd hope
that they remember that, hey,um, He helped me become better.
Um, he made the ministry better.
He made us better as a team and,um, that they would remember
more about the stories about howthe team really was functioning
well and not necessarily aboutme.
Um, I think if, because I thinkif you can, because then I would
(46:47):
say, Hey, they don't need meanymore.
Jason (46:49):
Yeah,
Matt (46:50):
So I think every single leader, your real job is to, is
to get to the point where.
You're just not needed.
Yeah.
Jason (46:58):
That's good.
I think back when I've had, thebest teams that I was a part of,
LADNR was a part of, and there'ssuch rewarding times.
You know, you wake up in themorning, ready to go to work.
Even if you're facing somestrong challenges, you're like,
that's all right.
I've got a great team of peopleand we're gonna get through this
together.
Versus, you know, all theseconstant infighting and battling
and division.
Uh, before we wrap up, how, ifpeople want to follow you, get
(47:22):
ahold of you, like, how do theydo that with you and or the
ministry?
You mentioned there's more thanjust, uh, the, the devotionals
that get left on the, you know,by the church bullets in every
week.
So, uh, how can people keeptrack of you, get ahold of you
and, uh, our daily bread also?
Matt (47:38):
Well, yeah.
So I mean, definitely, you know,reach out matt.
lucas at odb.
org.
It's an email.
I don't do a lot of social mediaplatforms, but I do use LinkedIn
a lot and heavily.
And so, yeah, that's probablythe place.
I, you know, I tend to, probablythe easiest to find me, if you
(47:59):
can't remember the email, justlook Matt Lucas in our Daily
Bread Ministries and I will showup and would love to connect
and, um, I use that as myprimary way to engage people
inside and outside the ministry.
Jason (48:10):
Yeah.
And I'll link to that too in theshow notes so people can go
right to your LinkedIn page.
As well and I'm guessing justour daily bread ministries You
can start there and find out allthe different resources that you
guys are putting out, right?
Matt (48:22):
Yeah, I'm glad to do that and uh, yeah, be wonderful.
Jason (48:25):
Good Well good.
Well, thank you brother.
I know you're busy.
I really again appreciate yourtime I can't wait to get this
out there and have people learnabout What the lord's done in
and through you and a littlemore about our daily bread Like
I said, it's a such a prolificministry in churches, at least
in protestant churches Um, Iknow I've known about for
decades, so it's really neat tolearn more about it and about
(48:46):
you.
So thank you.
Matt (48:48):
Yeah, no, thank you.
Jason (48:49):
Alright brother, take care.
And thank you for joining usagain this month.
As we meet another leader who isstriving to honor Christ in
their work.
I pray that we all are moreeffective at this objective in
2025.
Lord willing, I will be backagain next month to help you do
just that.
Happy new year, welcome to 2025.
And to the biblical leadershipat work podcast.
I'm your host, Jason watered.
And this month's episode, wewill meet Matt Lucas, president
and CEO of our daily breadministries.
Listen in, as we learn aboutMatt's unusual career trajectory
and how God led him to lead thisrenowned and influential
(00:23):
ministry.
Matt.
We'll also share some insightfulways in which he tries to lead
with biblical principles, aswell as sharing a bit about how
the ministry is organized andstructured.
I hope you will find thisconversation as edifying and
insightful as I did.
All right.
Well, Matt Lucas, brother.
(00:43):
I appreciate you taking the timeto join me today.
Matt is the CEO of Our DailyBread Ministries, and I'm super
excited to have you on the showtoday, brother.
Thank you for joining me.
Matt (00:54):
Thank you.
Glad to be here,
Jason (00:55):
So let's get started.
Like I always do.
Tell me about your careerbackground and maybe go back to
university college just afterhigh school and run us through
what you What the Lord did toget you to, uh, leading that
great organization that I thinkmany of us, if not all of us are
familiar with.
Matt (01:14):
well, it's definitely one that was unplanned.
Even though I was a young boy, Ihad dreams of one day being a
CEO.
I can remember that I was veryentrepreneurial.
But by the time I was in highschool and early college, I
decided I wanted to be ateacher.
And I was really interested inEnglish.
And so I did my undergraduateand my master's and my doctorate
(01:35):
all in English literature.
And, uh, what Right through thatback to back to back, um, was
done by, I was 26 and wasthinking about going and
teaching at a college in acollege or university,
particularly small Christianuniversity.
Um, my dream was to be in theclassroom for 50 years at
teaching students.
Um, before I ended up there, Itaught high school for a few
(01:57):
years.
Um, I completed my coursework by26.
I had to take a couple moreyears to finish up my
dissertation, so I did that.
I was, um, in, uh.
Teaching high school and reallyloved it and really felt like,
you know, whether it's highschool or college wanted to do
that was invited back about 10years after graduating from my
alma mater to my alma mater and,uh, was, uh, teaching was
(02:20):
actually asked to lead right offthe bat is in an administrative
position.
And I would do a little bit ofteaching, but it wouldn't be in
English literature.
Um, so I said yes, because Ithought this would be a way back
to the classroom and did thatand started out as a director of
the first graduate program atCorbett University.
(02:41):
And from there out, it was justthis long process of getting
further and further away fromthe classroom and never being
able to get
Jason (02:50):
and was Cor, you said it was Corbin university.
That's where you got youreducation
Matt (02:54):
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's in Salem, Oregon.
It's a small Christian liberalarts school, um, similar to
Cornerstone, which I believethat
Jason (03:02):
Yeah.
That's where I, uh, yeah, I gotmy MBA from Cornerstone.
Love that school.
Matt (03:06):
Yeah, so both schools are sister schools in the sense that
they're related to the samedenomination, at least
affiliated in the background.
So I was aware at Cornerstonewhen I was, actually, I thought
about it one time going toCornerstone in my undergraduate
years.
Okay.
Before I started.
Jason (03:20):
So, it, you were doing administrative leadership at
Corbin and then, um, So how,then what happened?
Why did you
Matt (03:27):
So, yes.
Jason (03:28):
did you go from there to our daily bread?
Nope.
Matt (03:34):
I was, I'm a director.
I'm 32 years old and I'm servingas a director and I've never
done, never, I've never led in aformal role and I had to start a
program from scratch in threemonths, had to hire people, had
to lead faculty, And I'm, yeah,I'm just making this up as I go
trying to figure it out.
Thankfully, I had a really goodmentor.
My my boss, the dean ofeducation was a phenomenal
(03:57):
leader, strong woman and reallywas good.
She had raised sons and she wasreally good at mentoring young
men.
Um, just natural at it.
And so she spent a lot of timeencouraging me.
And so from there, two yearslater, she stepped away into
into the provost role at theuniversity and suggested I take
on the dean role that shevacated.
(04:18):
And my first response was no, Iwant to go to the classroom.
Um, but six months later, I'mlike, Okay, I'm doing the job as
the interim dean of miles wouldtake the title.
So I do that for two years andShe leaves to go to another
university and vacates theprovost position, and she
suggested to my futurepresident, or my current
(04:38):
president, but my future boss,that, hey, you should look at at
Matt Lucas.
And I was actually on my way toIndonesia to go Be a dean in
liberal arts and teach it teachEnglish.
Like I I'm going to Indonesia togo back to the classroom and be
a dean and Anyway, a lot.
It was a long story how it allworked out.
I'm becoming Provost.
I'm 36 years old.
I'm a Provost I have no desireto this was not my trajectory
(05:00):
But yeah, I think other peoplesaw some leadership skills
administrative skills in me andI just started discovering that
I, um, yeah, it just wasnatural.
So from there, from provost toexecutive vice president.
From executive vice president, Ileft there and went on to
Indiana Wesleyan Universitywhere I was chancellor there.
Uh, Indiana Wesleyan is thelargest Christian school in the
(05:22):
CCCU.
Coalition of Christian Collegesand Universities, or I'm sorry,
the Coalition Council forChristian Colleges and
Universities.
And, um, yeah, did that for fiveyears and then was headhunted
from there into this role, whichI was not, you know, I was not
looking at one time.
I thought I might leaveChristian higher education and
go to a nonprofit position, butwas not looking for this and,
(05:45):
um, and surprised as probably asurprise to the next person that
I'm in this role.
Yeah, it's
Jason (05:50):
How long ago was that, Matt?
Matt (05:52):
Yeah, so March 1st of 2022 is when I started, so it's about
two and a half years from thetaping of this.
I've been in this role and it'sbeen a good fit.
I can really see and look backin my life how God used this or
prepared me for this role.
Um, when I was a young man, um,before I was still in college, I
wanted, I was, I had aspirationsto write devotionals and to do,
(06:16):
um, curriculum like that.
They weren't very good.
Um, so, but over the years Ikept doing that.
I would write, you know, I'dwrite devotionals, write little
things like that throughout.
And, you know, by the time I wasat Indiana Wesleyan University,
I was doing that on a regularbasis in my role for, for the
school, for the university, formy employees.
And I told my wife, I would loveto be in a place where I could
(06:38):
do this.
You know, it's a core part of myjob.
It's interesting on here.
I do write for our devotionalmaterial, but I don't do it as
much as I would like to do it.
The job doesn't give me thefreedom to do that kind of
reflection, right?
But I do get the opportunity.
It's kind of hard to say no tothe president when he says he's
going to write for the forcontent that and they're
(06:58):
gracious.
They want me to, but you kind ofcan say, Hey, um, yeah, I'm the
CEO.
I'd like to do
Jason (07:03):
So I think that, I think that most people, if not
everyone listening is familiarwith Our Daily Bread, but as
because we have it in ourchurch's material that's handed
out, can you talk though alittle bit about the
organization?
I mean there's a wholeorganization, so size,
structure, I'd be very, I'm veryinterested in what that looks
like.
Matt (07:23):
Yeah, I think most people, yeah, I think a lot of people
are familiar with us because ofour devotion.
Um, we're much bigger than that.
We're, we're really a Bibleengagement ministry.
We have 700 employees around theworld.
Um, we've got 32 offices, uh,working about 58 languages, um,
over 150 countries.
So we're about Bible engagementsin all aspects, all forms,
(07:44):
across all channels, across allmedia.
So we got a media group, we gota multimedia audiovisual group,
um, that does feature lengthfilms.
We've got, um, we do contentcurriculum for churches, we do
the devotional, uh, we do socialmedia, digital, you know, you
can just go on and on.
So we got a book publishinghouse, we do about five million
(08:05):
dollars, five and a half milliondollars in revenue about a year.
Uh, And that's just for thepublishing and just printing of
books that we sell.
So, uh, we're about an 80million, um, total ministry, um,
around the world.
So it's a, it's a, people arealways surprised that we're much
bigger than we are and much morecomplex.
So when you have offices aroundthe world, more people work
(08:28):
outside the United States, theinside the United States.
Jason (08:31):
That was one thing I was going to ask was how many work
like there.
You're, because you're located,you sit, Around in Grand Rapids
is what in that location whereyou're at.
Matt (08:40):
Yeah, so our office here, we have about 275, 280 employees
here in Grand Rapids.
The rest are outside.
Um, I do a lot of travel.
And if I'm not traveling, I'm onzoom or working with teams
across the world.
And so in addition to justleading, you know, it's a
midsize business.
Ministry, actually probably oneof the larger ministries as far
(09:02):
as comparing ourselves to other,um, as far as the size and
scope, um, to other ministries,but The complexity of actually
having employees on the grounddoing the work, you know,
writing content, doing Bibleengagement ministries around the
world in various contexts.
Yeah, it just creates for a lotof opportunities for, um,
engaging people and workingthrough challenges.
(09:25):
Usually there's some problemsomewhere in the world that's
creating an issue for our teamsthat we have to work through,
whether it's geopolitical,economic, or just, you know,
Disasters, you know, we had a,you know, an office in Jamaica
got hit by the, uh, earthquakeflooding in Taiwan affected our
Taiwanese office, Myanmar withthe civil unrest affected our is
(09:46):
affecting right now are ourUkrainian office.
We're having to re we'reactually starting to shut that
down because we just can'tcontinue to work there and
pivoting towards, you know,probably Romania or somewhere
else.
So I mean, yeah, there's alwayssomething somewhere that's
creating additional challengesfor the work we
Jason (10:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, that I can't imagine.
Yeah, that is complex.
How what?
What is the kind of average sizeof offices that are in those
areas?
Half a dozen people or two orthree people like what's that
look like in those areas?
Matt (10:13):
Yeah, so some of our largest offices like Singapore,
Indonesia, um, Brazil, um, over40 people.
Um, some of our smaller offices,you know, can have one to two
people.
Probably the average size isabout 10 to 12.
Um, so yeah, you know,Australia, um, has got close to
19.
So yeah, we The United Kingdom,um, a little over 20.
(10:36):
So it's a, each office is uniqueand engages, um, with their, you
know, with their audience andwith the work that they're doing
on the ground, the churches alittle bit differently.
Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, just,you know, yeah, depending on the
size, you can do certain things,but in a lot of ways there's,
there's a replication of theministry, even on a small team
(10:58):
like Sri Lanka that has fourpeople, five people.
Um, They're doing in microcosmwhat we're doing here at Grand
Rapids in a lot of itstranslation, um, or
contextualization on their end,but they also do a lot of
writing and content that's justspecific to the Sri Lankan
office working with volunteersand churches.
Jason (11:17):
Well, I know that's surprising to me.
I mean, you just, like I said,you see the material, you're
familiar with it, but I don'tknow the business behind it.
And that is a pretty complex,especially being spread out
around the world like that.
Um, tell us a little bit aboutyour family, Matt.
What's that.
situation look like?
Matt (11:31):
Yeah, so my wife and I have been married for 31 years.
We have six girls.
Um, two of them are adopted andwe have three grandchildren.
Um, the, uh, grant our oldestdaughter is adopted into the
family when she was a teenager.
So, And young, you know, so shecame in when we still had little
girls.
So I'm not that old.
Um, but, uh, yeah, it's beengreat having having her.
(11:54):
She actually was one of my highschool students.
Jason (11:56):
Okay,
Matt (11:57):
year teaching.
So she was a couch surfer.
I taught, I coached soccer.
So she actually married one ofmy soccer players, um, captain
of the soccer team.
So I've known them since theywere, you know, 14.
Jason (12:10):
nice.
Matt (12:11):
foolish.
Um, and then, yeah, we have, andthen we have another daughter
that we adopted from Namibia.
She brought her into our family,um, when she came here to the
States and she didn't haveanywhere to go and so we just
brought her into our family.
And then we have another 20, soshe's 27 or about to turn 27.
We got another 27-year-oldthat's our biological daughter,
and then a 24-year-old, and thentwin, identical twin girls who
(12:35):
are 20, about to turn 21.
Jason (12:39):
Nice.
Matt (12:39):
and then like three.
Yeah, three.
I don't leave our grandkids out.
You know, it's yeah, so we'vegot a 12 year old 10 year old
and a little eight year old.
So, but they're in Oregon.
So I don't get to
Jason (12:49):
Oh, okay.
Grandkids are the greatest.
We've got two that are five andone, and it's a what a joy.
yeah, and they're local, so wecan see him quite a bit.
And it's huge blessing for sure.
What about your faith, Matt?
Like, what's your faithbackground?
How'd you come to know the Lord?
Maybe denominational background.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Matt (13:07):
Yeah, my parents are led to the Lord by Southern Baptist
missionaries.
We were in my dad was in themilitary station in Taiwan.
And, um, yeah, Southern Baptistmissionaries led the First, my
mom and then him to the Lord.
And so like any Southern Baptistthat we were taught, you know,
they were taught as soon as youget to a new, um, service
(13:27):
station, the first thing you dois look for a Southern Baptist
church.
Usually first, you know, firstBaptist church of wherever we
lived.
So as we moved around the world,we would, we would go there.
My parents were really, youknow, they were, you know,
about, um, raising us up in a,in a Christian home.
And so I was fortunate to that.
And, um, but it wasn't until it,so I grew up Baptist.
(13:49):
Uh, I would, I would have saidSouthern Baptist, but by the
time I went to, uh, as a highschool, we were living in, um,
the Northwest, um, you know, theUnited States and there Southern
Baptist.
There's not a lot of SouthernBaptists in the Pacific
Northwest.
And so we end up going to achurch that's actually, as I was
mentioning to you earlier, isassociated with the General
Association of Regular Baptists,which are behind both
(14:12):
Cornerstone and CorbinUniversity.
So, um, they, this happened tobe at the church in our
neighborhood, in our area, um,parents liked this church.
So we went there, um, and, uh,Yeah, I went off to university,
which again, Corbin and wantedto go to Christian University
and that's where I met my wife.
Um, she, uh, she was alsoraised, she wasn't raised
(14:32):
bachelors, but raised in a smallvillage missions church, lives
in a very rural area of Oregon,but really grounded in her
faith.
And, um, yeah, so yeah, we didthat.
We raised our girls, um, in aBaptistic churches.
Um, and, uh.
Yeah, I've really beenfortunate.
I was able to serve as an elderand, you know, Sunday school
director and small group leader,men's ministry leader.
(14:56):
So I've done, yeah, I've beeninvolved in a number of areas
with the church, led youth groupfor a number of years.
Um, it's been interesting thelast couple of years because of
our moving, we're still gettingacclimated.
We've landed at a church, um,it's non denominational, um,
here in town.
But, uh, still trying to figureout what that, what it looks
like to be engaged in churchwhile doing full time ministry.
(15:17):
And yeah, I travel a lot aroundthe world.
And so as I travel, how do Ibalance that and, um, Yeah.
the demands of work.
Jason (15:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Serving in ministry.
And yeah, that's that I found wemoved, we made one major move in
our life and it wasn't a longways away, but far enough where
we find to find a new church.
And that was the biggestchallenge for us.
That was out of everything.
You know, our, we were prettydeeply grounded in the church.
Our kids grew up in and we movedwhen they were our two oldest
were teenagers.
(15:47):
And that's a, that's huge.
That's a
Matt (15:49):
Yeah, I think a lot of people, I mean, I think for us,
we underestimated thatchallenge.
I mean, we were so, I mean, thechurch in Oregon was our church
family at such a deep level.
And yeah, when you, you know,when you leave it, you know, and
you long for what that communitywas like, um, and you come into
(16:10):
new communities where you're notknown and people have grown up
and, you know, you're coming inat a different stage of life.
It is, it is more difficult.
So, um, But yeah, it's been a,it's been a learning experience.
I mean, because of that, my wifeparticularly has gravitated more
towards newer people coming intothe church and international
people, because we've done a lotof work internationally over
(16:32):
our, over the years that we'vebeen either my job or just our
own ministry, personal ministry.
And so that's kind of been wherewe found, started to create
that, you know, community.
But, uh, yeah, it's verydifferent than what we had in
Oregon.
Jason (16:46):
No, I think the same thing.
We underestimated the impact itwould have on ourselves and our
kids, but the Lord grew us in alot of ways through that.
Hey, uh, a topic of leadership,Matt, when you think about
leadership and your ownemphasis.
I guess your own, you know, coreprinciples.
What are, What are, those?
what what are your, the corethings that you go back to as a
leader?
Yeah.
Matt (17:11):
for over 20 years in leadership roles, and I've I
think probably the best way I'vetried to get me just like I got
a lot of things I kind of, youknow, hooks and things that I
grab as I'm leading, but Ialways come back to my
definition of leadership that Iuse, which is to serve and
shepherd a team so they canaccomplish more than they think
(17:32):
possible for a better future.
And I think there's some keyaspects of that.
So one is serving andshepherding.
Um, I like to talk about both ofthose partly because I'm wired
pastorally.
People have called that out inmy life.
Um, I will not be surprised atsome point in my life in the
future that I don't end uppastoring, um, full time or in
(17:53):
some way in a church.
Um, but yeah, I like that kindof shepherding aspect of caring
for people and really helping.
Nurture and encourage them.
Call out the best in them.
And then of course serving, Imean, doing that in a way that
is about them.
And then I like to talk a lotabout team.
Um, you know.
My greatest success is reallythe success of the team.
(18:14):
And when they do great things,I'd love to see it.
Love to celebrate that.
Love it to be about them.
And really, I, I feel greatwhen, you know, I'm in the
background and I can point tothe work that they've done and
say, Hey, they've beenphenomenal.
I had a point to that.
And I think it's reallyimportant to realize that team
really helps you accomplishmore.
Like that's, I always tell myteam, if, if it's, if you're not
(18:37):
asking to do this thing morethan you think possible, then
why do they need you?
Right?
What, what, what people need.
Whoever that is, someone to comeand say, Hey, we can do what we
don't think is possible rightnow.
And then it has to be for abetter future, right?
Because you can lead in anydifferent direction you want to,
but if it's not pointing to abetter future for us as
followers of Jesus, right?
(18:57):
I mean, that better future isboth a life transformation in
Christ, but also one thatactually impacts the kingdom.
So So yeah, for me, all I tried,I came up with this about eight
or nine years ago.
I was trying to think about likewhat, like when I think about
leadership, what are the corethings that kind of baked that
together?
And yeah, I go back to that alot.
(19:17):
I just asked myself, how am Idoing on that?
Where's that?
Where's that going?
And, um, and then as I talkwith, you know, my team, like,
okay, this is what we're tryingto do.
This is why I, how I'm trying tolead us.
Then as you lead your team, youcan come up with your own
definition, but the goal is atsome point you got to get it.
The goal is to get that team tocome together and to do
something more than they thoughtpossible, or they don't they
(19:40):
don't need you.
Look at somebody else.
Yeah.
Jason (19:46):
one of the things I've learned, I'm just curious on
your thoughts on this, causeI've had to learn this, is.
soliciting the input of the teamin that kind of that vision
development, right?
And not just, Hey, I'm gonnacome as a leader and I have this
totally formed, developedvision.
This is what, This is what Ineed you to help me to get to
type of thing versus, you know,what does better look like for
(20:10):
whatever the organization is.
I work in for profit, you workin nonprofit, but as you said,
you know, as leaders, we have tobe moving forward.
to improve.
It's like in our personal walkwith Christ, the sanctification
that never stops.
Have you, what Have you, learnedthrough that?
Or what what's your thoughts on,you know, how do you, how do you
hone and develop that
Matt (20:29):
Yeah, that's a great question, Jason, because I
thought about that.
I've given that a lot ofthought, especially this new
role.
And I look back in my youngeryears and You know, being young,
being thrust into leadership.
I was leading people that I was.
I was the youngest facultymember and I was asked to be the
provost.
Jason (20:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're in charge.
Matt (20:46):
I'm like, you know, so so there's a sense of insecurity
and trying to Hey, I know whatI'm doing.
And, you know, looking back, Ihad ideas and had a vision for
that look like, but I reallyfelt like I had to do that, even
though I knew all the rightlanguage.
I had read the books.
I was reading the books.
It's hard to kind of really.
Push your put yourself at avery, you know, humble yourself,
(21:08):
lower your ego and really beabout the team.
So while that definitionprobably that I had just gave
us, you know, leading a team sothey can accomplish more than
that possible, like I would say,I could maybe think that, but I
really wasn't practicing that ona real heart level.
So I could see when my heartwould like, Oh, I really want to
strive here.
I want to people know that I'mdoing this.
(21:29):
I'm feeling insecure.
Some of that comes with age.
You just, I grew up and juststarted realizing, hey, you
know, just getting older is, youknow, some wisdom.
Uh, but then really the Lord isdoing a work in my life and just
saying, you know, and reallylistening to where my heart
really was and where as much asI could know my heart and
recognizing that I fully know myheart.
(21:52):
And just being sensitive to thatand say, okay, you know what, I
don't, I do sometimes want tostrive out in front and how do
I, how I lower that?
So now in this role, I'm 50, 52,about to turn 53.
And, um, I, there's this balanceand you probably experienced it
yourself.
There are moments when I have tolead.
And if I don't, there's a,there's a vacuum and I'm doing a
(22:13):
disservice to the team and I'mdoing disservice to my role.
And this is what God's called meto.
Conversely, there are timeswhen, hey, I need to step back
and let others lead.
And the way I've kind of workedthrough that is just really
trying to walk in step with theLord, listening to what the Holy
Spirit might be saying in thatmoment.
Um, sometimes it's exhausting.
(22:35):
So I'm really just trying tolisten in that moment.
So I talked about the team.
I talked about this a lot.
Here's another principle Italked about, which is the
definition of humility or thatwhat humility looks like is that
is humility isn't being is beingthe right size for the situation
at the right time, becausesometimes you need to be bigger
and sometimes you need to besmaller and humility coupled
(22:57):
with wisdom allows you to knowwhere that is.
So if I'm too small for asituation where that calls me to
be bigger, to use my talents, mygifts, then I'm not doing it
well.
Conversely, if I'm too big, whenthe situations should be, I
should be much smaller.
So I think that that's probablybeen the lesson that I've
constantly asked myself, okay,Matt, how big do I need to be
(23:18):
here?
Sometimes it's listening to theteam.
Sometimes it's listening to theLord.
And say, okay, I've got to stepup here or no, I
Jason (23:27):
I like that a lot.
I like that a lot.
I hadn't heard that said thatway, but I found that when, you
know, there's good momentum onmy team and they're working good
together, moving towards thatvision.
I mean, I need to step out, stepout of their way and watch.
them like you said, andcelebrate and watch.
And it is so rewarding to juststep back and watch it happen.
(23:48):
Because we've all, yeah, we've,we've put the plan in place.
Everybody knows their roles.
They work together.
And yeah, I like that a lot.
Knowing, knowing when to be.
Yeah.
Matt (24:00):
I like what you said, Jason, about stepping back.
I think what really, I can'tremember when that moment was
this late in my time at Corbin,when I really just really made
the transition and saying, youknow what?
My greatest moment of success asa leader is when I see the team
winning.
Like, I just started looking forthat more and more.
(24:21):
It's like when that's happeningand that for me, that was
counterintuitive to my ego.
Kind of like I wanted to be inthe limelight and I just started
looking.
Okay, when, when, does thathappen?
And I just started gettingexcited about.
So now I hunt for it.
I'm, I'm constantly looking forthat.
And I've discovered, I mean,there's still my ego.
I'll be honest.
There's times I want to berecognized and, you know, Even
in looking for other people'ssuccess, I can quickly turn that
(24:46):
and corrupt that into, yeah, I'mlooking for people's success so
it could be about my success.
But when I'm truly genuinely inthat moment and just like, Hey,
they are doing awesome.
I've seen God's given talentjust manifest themselves that
they're doing something thatthey didn't think was possible.
And I get excited about that.
Jason (25:05):
Yeah.
Matt (25:05):
that's that's when I'm in my sweet spot.
And for me, then everythingjust, I, I can find myself just
disappearing and like, that'sawesome.
So, Yeah,
Jason (25:16):
didn't, they didn't, they don't need you right now.
They got it.
That's good.
Yeah, no, that's, that'sabsolutely right.
Hey, when Matt, when you were ayoung leader, what was something
as you look back now and youreally struggled with and maybe
you've already touched on alittle bit, but do you still
struggle with it?
Some, what have you done toovercome it?
Like, what was something as ayoung leader really, you know,
you battled, struggled
Matt (25:37):
Yeah.
I mean, definitely what wasbeing thrust into the leadership
the way it was there, there wasa sense of insecurity and
inferiority and trying to figurethat out.
Definitely coming to terms withthat was a, um, a major issue.
You know, my mentor, um,probably the thing, one of the
things that she would say to meis that, um, like one of the
(25:59):
things where guides wire me isthat I can usually connect
things quicker than most peoplein the room.
It's just, I, this has alwaysbeen the case.
I can see the dots.
Um, and because I could do that.
I would quickly and then my egois like I want people to know
that I've connected the dotsquicker than everybody else in
the room.
And really trying to not getlike that became a major issue.
(26:21):
So, and then that's dangerous,right?
So just because you connect thedots doesn't mean you're
connecting the right way.
Jason (26:26):
Right.
Matt (26:27):
And you you might not have a full perspective on that.
And so I think that's probablybeen an area.
I still battle with that attimes that I could be in a room.
I've had people say that they'rejust like Matt.
It's amazing how quick you canprocess information.
And I it's easy to say, Oh, I'mreally good at that.
But there is that dark side,which is you don't connect the
right dots.
(26:48):
You don't have the fullperspective.
And even if you do have thosethings down, man, my ego can
quickly corrupt that in waysthat aren't healthy.
So really, so what she wouldcounsel me to do is she said,
you have to ask more questions.
You've got to, you've got toslow down.
And I would say I'm still a workin progress on that.
Um, and really trying to say,okay, what's the right question
to ask here first, rather thansaying, okay, I can see this.
(27:12):
Thanks.
And.
But what I find when I'm, whenI'm at my best in that moment is
when I can ask certainquestions, step back, and when I
try to practice this, I don'talways do it well, and pray,
say, God, what, what is it thatyou're seeing here?
And do I need to say something?
Or do I need to let that emergefrom the team?
Jason (27:30):
Yeah.
Matt (27:31):
And then try to be in step with that.
Um, like that's been.
That's been a challenge andthere's, there's under stress.
I will definitely default to thedarker side.
But when I, when I'm in, whenI'm in, in the word on a regular
basis, I'm really listening tospirit.
There's a sense of like, okay,yeah, that's, that's when I'm,
(27:52):
God's using me at the best, atmy best potential.
Jason (27:55):
Yeah.
I haven't, when you know, inyour head, you have the answer,
staying curious and askingquestions and not just getting
to that answer to that end game.
That's yeah.
I think that curiosity piece hasbeen something I've had to learn
is ask.
Matt (28:09):
That's a better way of saying, you said it in a few
words, but it took me too longto say.
Jason (28:13):
Uh, I think that's, I, I relate to that to just be
curious and ask questions andnot make, yeah, just cause I
have to jump to conclusions andthey're wrong.
Sometimes they're right, but uh,too often they're wrong and you
don't let people kind of walkthrough the process, the
thinking process, so one of thethings I wanted to ask you about
is your spiritual disciplines.
Like what do you do on a daily,weekly basis, uh, to stay close
(28:36):
to the Lord and grow, keepgrowing, sanctification, growing
in holiness.
and what does that look like ona practical level for you?
Matt (28:43):
Um, yeah.
Practical level.
So for us, we're a Bibleengagement ministry.
So, you know, when I came here,I said, we have to practice what
we profess.
I mean, it would be reallystrange that we're talking about
this and then we don't do it.
And, you know, as a CEO, itstarts with me about what does
that really look like?
And, you know, fortunately, I'vecome into ministry where that's
(29:04):
already a natural part of mylife.
I'm always growing in that andis able to, you know, just
continue that.
Um, you know, You know, youknow, regular, just sort of
prayer.
Um, one of the things that I, soI, I do those things.
I don't always do it perfectly.
I'm, I'm the CEO of our dailybread ministries.
And there's days that I get toobusy and run out the door.
Like, I'll get to that later.
And I don't, you know, I don't,and I always pay for it.
(29:26):
I always pay for it.
Um, so, um, or I might get bywith it for one day.
Like, okay, that way then it'slike, you know, but it'll come
back.
Right.
So, So I think really what I'vebeen working on lately is really
trying to slow myself down andstill myself and like just even
today I was just noticingbefore, you know, about an hour
(29:47):
before this, um, my mind wasracing and just got the phone
call and it's realized that Ireally hadn't spent time praying
as much as I should be.
Thought I had been praying aboutthe very thing that we were
talking about.
And so really just trying topause in the middle of that
moment, just say, okay, I'mgoing to, I need to step down.
I need to be quiet for fiveminutes, try to still my mind,
(30:08):
not let it race to the nextthing.
So that's one.
And then the other side is, um,I, and I have a fortunate that I
could do this, is that in aministry like ours, um, I've
been in a Christian ministry inleadership my entire life.
I can, I can stop a meeting.
And say, you know what?
I think we're stuck right here.
We're pausing.
We're going to pray.
(30:28):
And I've been, and sometimes Idon't do that with the large
group.
I'll just do it for myself andI'll let them keep talking.
I'm just like, I just, I need topray.
And really trying to practice.
So when James says, if any of uswisdom, let him ask about, he'll
give it to you like to, if Ireally believe that promise,
then how do I actually live intothat?
So that kind of, you know, soyeah, I was speaking to our
(30:52):
audience like, Hey, if you hadthat moment and you had your,
especially if you're in aChristian setting where you can
actually do this verbally,vocally, out loud, do it because
man, it's been, our teams willalways say that, you know, that
when we do that, it, the HolySpirit comes in and does things,
you know, In ways that, yeah, itchanges the conversation or it
(31:13):
gives us clarity.
Even if things are like, stop.
Okay.
We just have a sense like, Hey,we need to stop here.
We're going to do somethingdifferent.
Um, so yeah, I think that'sdiligent, really listening day
by day, practicing the presenceof the Holy Spirit on a regular
basis has been probably the keything I'd be coming back to.
Jason (31:33):
Um, another leadership topic.
Who do you follow?
Who do you read, podcast, listento?
What are some recommendationsyou would have for the audience
to help you stay sharp as aleader?
Matt (31:45):
Yeah.
You know, if you were sittinghere looking at my desk, I had a
small bookshelf right next to mehere of, of books that I come
back to and, and behind me I gota leadership bookshelf.
What's interesting, the booksthat are probably the most
influential have actually beenbooks that don't directly
address leadership.
Um, so.
(32:06):
One of my favorites is, um,Visions of Vocation, uh, by
Steve Garber, which really talksabout the idea of how do you,
like, what, what does vocationlook like?
And he says basically vocationis a calling of loving the world
despite knowing it in all of itsugliness.
So I, as I talk with leaders,you know, ODBM, I mean, our
(32:28):
deliberate ministries, thelonger I'm here, the more I know
it.
And I know how the sausage ismade and I know the weaknesses.
Can I love it?
In spite of all that, and Ithink that's that's the way to
avoid cynicism because I thinkit's leaders easy to become
cynical.
So that's the key book.
Another one is called the Jcurve by Paul Miller.
It's a great book just on justas a Pauline theology, very
(32:53):
practical and what she justtalks about the shape of the
gospel is a J curve, both death,burial and resurrection.
It's very simple idea, but.
Miller just really kind ofelaborates on it, really goes
deep on that.
And in fact, last week I wastalking about leadership and we
were talking about changemanagement.
I just used the J curve as abiblical principle, but I talked
about that in change management.
And then I talked about thatfrom a biblical perspective,
(33:15):
what was really going on indeath, burial, and resurrection.
So for me, it's been thosebooks.
Um, you know, another one hasbeen Life Together by Dietrich
Bonhoeffer.
And that's just been, you know,a great book.
Transformative book that I comeback to over and over and over
again, especially chapter one soI could go on I would say the
last one that I like I said, Igot about 15 of them here that
(33:37):
like I just looking at the shelfI go.
Oh, yeah, that's the key pointthat I have here.
But one that I would reallyencourage people to to really
consider looking at is dangerouscalling ball by Paul David Tripp
who this is probably this iswritten for passers and Chapter
four, I think if you're inleadership, particularly in
Christian leadership, reallygoing deep into chapter four and
(33:59):
Paul Tripp really just gets intoknowing the leader's heart.
And he's just got a whole listof questions.
And, um, it's good questions forme.
They're good questions for myteam.
There's the questions thatpeople should be asking me in
leadership.
It's easy to say, Oh, Matt's gottogether.
He's the CEO of our ministries.
(34:21):
I need those questions and yeah,Tripp just does a good job and
he's really worked with a lot ofpastors who's fallen and just
seen ministries implode.
He worked with the Mars HillDriscoll's Church out in Seattle
and I was connected and kind ofwatched that at the front row
seat implode.
And after that and another issueof the church I was dealing
with, I read that book and Imean that book, chapter four.
(34:45):
It's, I think it's essential forany Christian leader.
Like you've, you've got towrestle with that book and you
got to wrestle with that withyour team.
Um, so yeah, that would be my,like I said, I got like 12
others that I'd love to talkabout.
So
Jason (35:00):
No, that's great.
One of the things you mentionedthat I want to go back to that I
think is, was, was, uh, prettyimpactful in my life and I think
I still see it impact people isthis.
As you, as people get anopportunity to take on
leadership roles in ministry.
So, and I think specificallylocal church ministry
leadership, at least for me, andI've seen this happen with
(35:22):
others, there's a rude awakeningsometimes of some of the
problems and sins and strugglesthat are happening in the church
that.
that the typical parishioner arecompletely unaware of and and
and rightfully so.
(35:44):
And when when I can remember,you know, it was what 20
probably 20 years ago when Ifirst was asked to serve, you
know, as a deacon.
So you began to see some of thesome of the broken relationships
and the struggles within thechurch and it and it can Cause
you to become cynical.
it can, it will challenge yourfaith a little bit and that you
(36:05):
thought, I thought all thesepeople were just, you know, they
come to church and they'redressed up real nice and
everything looks great onSunday.
And then, you know, you startworking behind the scenes and,
and either among the leadershipteam, I've seen some awful,
awful bitterness and I'm, I'msure you've seen and been
involved in some of those horrorstories, but then also just.
(36:26):
It's just getting pulled intosome of the brokenness within
the church to minister to thosepeople.
Um, and I, and I've seen, I meanthat was, I want to say a little
bit shocking to me at first, andI've seen, for other people it
to be shocking, and I just wantto talk about that for a minute,
especially for those who maybeare going through that or are
going to go through that, thatit's, I don't want to say it's
(36:47):
normal in a way that we shouldjust accept it, but it's, it's,
uh, it's, you know, there'sstill, there's still sin in
people's hearts.
There's still destructive thingsthat happen even within the
church.
But, I mean, talk about, Iguess, your experience with that
and maybe what advice would yougive someone?
This is my, my point I want tomake or the advice I want to
give is for someone who is maybemoving into or will be moving
(37:10):
into a church leadership roleand get some of that same, they
see how the sausage is made alittle bit and see some of the
things that um, that they'resurprised to see.
Matt (37:18):
yeah, no, that's, that's, that's a great question.
It's insightful question.
It's one that usually anybody.
I've thought about this a lotbecause oftentimes when people
come to a Christian ministry,they're like, Hey, I was working
in the secular world.
I want to come to a Christianministry.
Jason (37:33):
Yes.
Yeah, it's going to be great.
It's gonna be perfect.
Matt (37:36):
you're going to run into problems.
And I actually say you'reprobably going to run into more
because on top of just the factthat we're humans, you've got
the spiritual warfare.
So that just going to beprobably even a heightened sense
of this.
This is the reason why, um,Bonhoeffer's book, A Life
Together, um, I, I wrestled withthis, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm
a young guy.
I'm leading a Christianuniversity, people who know
(37:59):
their Bible inside and out, andI'm watching people just do
things that like, that justlike, we wouldn't teach that in
the classroom.
And like, why are we behavingthis way?
So.
Jason (38:08):
Yeah.
Matt (38:10):
together.
What Bonhoeffer says and is thatthe dream community is actually
the thing that needs to diebecause the ideal can be because
the real community.
So the dream or the idealcommunity that you might have
what this should be that needsto die because the real
(38:32):
community.
of believers and all their wartsand ugliness is actually part of
your sanctification process.
So the more I just really sat, Imean, like, I mean, really, if
this really sits underneath theweight of that, which also means
my brokenness is actually partof other people's
(38:53):
sanctification.
So like, so there's that pieceof really wrestling with that.
And then there's this otherside.
Of also recognizing, well, what,what needs to change in me?
It's easy for me to identify allthe other things, but what
really needs to change in me?
And sometimes it's just longsuffering in dealing with
people's brokenness because youlike to just say, Hey, what are
you doing?
(39:14):
So then there's that piece.
So I always ask myself before Iwant to solve anything that I
see is that God, what, what inme has to change?
And that I find that thatusually takes longer than.
One minute or one day, like Ihave to really sit with that for
a while.
And then lastly, and I was justtalking with a pastor right
before this, and we were just,you know, we're unrelated to
(39:34):
this, but he said something thatI think is really true.
It's like, and then there's amoment when you, you have to do
what Jesus is calling you to doand to step into a difficult
conversation.
even if it's going to blow up.
And I think, so I think it'sthose three pieces, the death of
the dream community and livingwith the real community,
recognizing how I contribute tothat, but then also really
(39:55):
listening to the Lord saying,okay, when do I need to say
something and not measuringsaying something if it goes
well, right?
I mean, you know, actuallytoday's devotional, um, in our
The men around him in Danielchapter six could find nothing
wrong with him.
And they searched and searched.
(40:15):
And so what did they do?
So they manufactured a new lawso they can catch him praying to
his God.
Like you could be doingeverything right and still find
yourself in a situation whereyou're going to be tested and
tried because we live in afallen world.
And we sometimes as Christiansgo, well, you know, if I do the
right thing, it should be, easy.
It's like, no, it might actuallyget harder.
Jason (40:37):
Look at like Jesus lived a perfect life that did not end
well for him, right?
They hated him.
They hated him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Matt (40:45):
So I think it's those three pieces.
Dream committee has to die.
You have to be able to say, Hey,what's wrong with myself?
But then you have to askyourself, Hey, I might have to
say and do something that'sreally hard.
And it might get worse.
But am I going to be willing todo it?
But I don't think you can.
I think the problem is, is ifyou start with that third point,
Jason (41:05):
Yeah.
Matt (41:05):
you've got a problem.
You've got to start with, Hey,what has to die?
What has to change in me?
And then you're at a place whereGod probably is able to use you
to say, okay, now you couldprobably, you might be actually
seeing enough of this clearly tobe able to say something that's
Jason (41:19):
Yeah.
I love that.
No, I actually was praying aboutthat this morning in a
relationship that I have that,you know, Lord, let me, yeah,
let me have the wisdom to saywhat needs to be said.
If it needs to be said, youdirect me what to say, when to
say, and even if that means it'sgoing to, yeah, blow up if you
will.
But, but, but also help me tokeep my mouth shut.
And if, uh, It's, you know,someone I, something I have to
(41:40):
look inward on.
So that's, I'm going to get thatbook.
I'm going to download that bookto my Kindle.
I've read Bonhoeffer before.
I've not read that book, buteverything I've read that he's
written is really very, very,uh, insightful.
Okay,
Matt (41:56):
the shortest book he's written.
I mean, it's, it's, it's quick,especially the, and again, I
think the first chapter is thebest chapter.
I think the other stuff is notas, I don't find as helpful, but
chapter one, life together, man,it's good.
Jason (42:09):
Awesome.
Hey, Matt, if you had somebodywho reached out to you that, you
know, young, let's say someonewho's young in their career.
And the first time they're goingto get to be a leader.
And they're like, Hey, Matt, ifI buy you a cup of coffee, can
we meet?
And just give me some advice,generic advice on first time,
first time leadership.
I'm not, you know, I'm good tobe a supervisor or manager of a
team.
(42:29):
What advice would you give tosomebody in that situation?
Matt (42:32):
Yeah, that's kind of hard, because each situation is
different.
But you're saying general.
I think the thing that I comeback to is what I look for in a
young leader is I always lookfor how quick how teachable they
are.
Um, and so I think the questionsI would ask, we, we would, we
would How teachable are you?
Really?
I mean, are you?
I mean, if you're gonna have tolead people like you're gonna
(42:54):
start leading yourself first,and that leading yourself first
is realizing you don't have allthe answers.
So how?
How teachable are you?
Because you're gonna make themistake.
You're gonna blow it in front ofyour team.
And I've watched leaders, andI've been guilty of it doubling
down because you can't loseface.
But if you could really assessthe teachability of your own
heart and be teachable, becausethe real moment of leadership, I
(43:16):
believe.
Is when you blow it and you leteverybody know that you blow it,
you've blown it and you, youdon't say, I'm sorry, you say, I
need your forgiveness.
Please forgive me because I havewronged you.
I have done what I shouldn'thave done.
I'm not talking about a mistake.
I mean, that's different.
Those mean, but you just wellyou're, you're gonna, you're
gonna send, you're going to fallshort and you're gonna do,
(43:37):
you're gonna do your team wrong.
And I think that teachabilityallows you to just to say, hey,
I need your forgiveness becauseI have wronged you.
It's an awkward.
I've had to do that a couple oftimes, even here.
It's awkward.
No one likes it.
I don't like it.
And then everybody wants to say,Oh, it's okay.
It's okay.
(43:57):
Because you're the leader.
But I when I told I told you wasnot to stay and say no, it's not
okay.
I have wronged you.
And I'm asking you to forgive mebecause I what I did.
Doesn't line up with scriptureand it hurt you.
Jason (44:11):
Yeah.
Matt (44:11):
I think that moment when you, I think for me, that's,
that's the defining moment of, Iwatch for that in a leader.
When they do some version ofthat, that's, I think that's
what, at least in a Christiansetting, that's when, that's
when leadership starts going toa different level because you've
been able to take yourself offthat pedestal.
Jason (44:29):
Yeah.
That's huge.
That level of humility Andteachability.
That's good.
I appreciate it.
Matt (44:34):
I don't always get that right.
So I don't want to put myself ona
Jason (44:36):
you.
Matt (44:36):
there, but, uh,
Jason (44:37):
I had to do that today.
Uh, yeah, I had to go back andapologize for an overreaction I
had in a meeting and then, youknow, it's, yeah.
So I know it's, it's tough.
You know, you're wrong, but,Yeah, the Lord was working on
me, and he was, of course, he'sright.
There's some conviction there,so to go back and make that
apology.
I like that though, to go andsay, hey, I need your
forgiveness.
(44:57):
that's that's, that's a littledeeper level.
Um, two other questions for youbefore we wrap up.
One is, do you have somebody,and you don't have to answer on
the spot, uh, but if you know,that's great, you have somebody
you'd like to see on thepodcast, be a good fit?
Yeah.
Someone who's.
You know, had a few decades ofleadership under their belt like
(45:19):
yourself and that you respect asa leader and profit or non
profit.
I, uh, yeah.
Anybody you can think of?
Matt (45:26):
Yeah, there's a, actually there is someone, um, he's been
a mentor for a number of years.
His name is Vance Day, JudgeVance Day.
He's a, uh, retired judge.
He lost his judgeship because,um, he would not marry, um,
homosexual couples and paid ahigh price in Oregon for doing
that.
(45:46):
And I watched him walk throughthat.
So I would love to introduce youto him.
He, he's had a lot of leadershippositions before, went through
the fire, had leadershippositions since then, and is a
giant of the phase as far as I'mconcerned as I watched him do
that.
So yeah, I'd be happy to connectyou with him.
He would be a great person totalk to.
Jason (46:07):
That'd be great.
And then, so thank you.
And then, um, what, like, whatdo you hope people remember
about you, Matt, when you're,uh, Workplace, full time
workplace journey is done.
What do you, what do you hope,you know, as they think about
having interacted with you, workwith you, work for you, what do
you hope they'll remember?
Matt (46:25):
Uh, yeah, I think going back to my definition, I'd hope
that they remember that, hey,um, He helped me become better.
Um, he made the ministry better.
He made us better as a team and,um, that they would remember
more about the stories about howthe team really was functioning
well and not necessarily aboutme.
Um, I think if, because I thinkif you can, because then I would
(46:47):
say, Hey, they don't need meanymore.
Jason (46:49):
Yeah,
Matt (46:50):
So I think every single leader, your real job is to, is
to get to the point where.
You're just not needed.
Yeah.
Jason (46:58):
That's good.
I think back when I've had, thebest teams that I was a part of,
LADNR was a part of, and there'ssuch rewarding times.
You know, you wake up in themorning, ready to go to work.
Even if you're facing somestrong challenges, you're like,
that's all right.
I've got a great team of peopleand we're gonna get through this
together.
Versus, you know, all theseconstant infighting and battling
and division.
Uh, before we wrap up, how, ifpeople want to follow you, get
(47:22):
ahold of you, like, how do theydo that with you and or the
ministry?
You mentioned there's more thanjust, uh, the, the devotionals
that get left on the, you know,by the church bullets in every
week.
So, uh, how can people keeptrack of you, get ahold of you
and, uh, our daily bread also?
Matt (47:38):
Well, yeah.
So I mean, definitely, you know,reach out matt.
lucas at odb.
org.
It's an email.
I don't do a lot of social mediaplatforms, but I do use LinkedIn
a lot and heavily.
And so, yeah, that's probablythe place.
I, you know, I tend to, probablythe easiest to find me, if you
(47:59):
can't remember the email, justlook Matt Lucas in our Daily
Bread Ministries and I will showup and would love to connect
and, um, I use that as myprimary way to engage people
inside and outside the ministry.
Jason (48:10):
Yeah.
And I'll link to that too in theshow notes so people can go
right to your LinkedIn page.
As well and I'm guessing justour daily bread ministries You
can start there and find out allthe different resources that you
guys are putting out, right?
Matt (48:22):
Yeah, I'm glad to do that and uh, yeah, be wonderful.
Jason (48:25):
Good Well good.
Well, thank you brother.
I know you're busy.
I really again appreciate yourtime I can't wait to get this
out there and have people learnabout What the lord's done in
and through you and a littlemore about our daily bread Like
I said, it's a such a prolificministry in churches, at least
in protestant churches Um, Iknow I've known about for
decades, so it's really neat tolearn more about it and about
(48:46):
you.
So thank you.
Matt (48:48):
Yeah, no, thank you.
Jason (48:49):
Alright brother, take care.
And thank you for joining usagain this month.
As we meet another leader who isstriving to honor Christ in
their work.
I pray that we all are moreeffective at this objective in
2025.
Lord willing, I will be backagain next month to help you do
just that.
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