Dan Kapenga - Regional Manager & Author

Send us a text

In this episode, host Jason Woodard interviews Dan Kaga, regional manager at Zurich and author of 'How to Live Pure in an Impure World.' Dan discusses his professional journey, the impact of faith on leadership, and his experiences as a foster parent. The conversation highlights key leadership principles like empowering others, maintaining humility, and the importance of integrity in the workplace.

Dan on LinkedIn 

How to Live Pure in an Unpure World book

Support the show

Be sure to rate and follow our podcast!

Episode Transcript

Jason (00:00):
Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast.

(00:03):
I'm your host, Jason Woodard.
Today I'm super excited tointroduce to our guest Dan Kaga.
Dan is an experienced financeand insurance professional,
currently serving as regionalmanager at Zurich, where he
spent over 12 years helpingbusinesses navigate risk with
tailored insurance solutions.
Before his role at Zurich, Danworked as a finance manager at

(00:24):
El Heart Automotive, gainingvaluable expertise in financial
management and client relations.
But beyond his professionalexperience, Dan is also an
author and a man deeplycommitted to biblical
principles.
His book, how to Live.
Pure.
In an unpure world, a radicalfight against sexual immorality
offers practical andfaith-driven guidance on

(00:46):
pursuing purity.
In today's culture, Dan brings aunique blend of business acumen
and spiritual insight, makinghim the perfect guest for
today's conversation, wherewe'll be discussing faith,
leadership, integrity in theworkplace, and how biblical
principles shape our dailydecisions.
So Dan brother, welcome to theshow.

Dan (01:08):
Thank you.
Thank you.

Jason (01:10):
thanks for joining us.
And I, and you know, I'll saytoo, I didn't even know you were
an author until I get, I wasstarted preparing for this.
So you came to me as a referencefrom another one of our guests,
Nate Mema, who I justinterviewed.
You guys are cousins, right?

Dan (01:24):
Yes we are.

Jason (01:25):
Yeah.
So, so, yeah.
So that was cool, um, to findout about you being an author.
So we'll talk about that book,but let's, as we always do, when
we get started.
Dan, tell us a little bit aboutjust kind of professional
background.
How did you get where you are?
How did God lead you up to thispoint in your life
professionally?

Dan (01:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Thanks again for having me,Jason.
Uh, so really where I gotstarted is, um, you know, I, I
started working in theautomotive business very young.
I actually started detailingwhen I was 14 years old.
Um, opened a detail business,uh, in my, my dad, mom's actual
pole barn when I was 17.
Uh, and I just kept, kind ofkept, uh, driving forward in the

(02:04):
automotive industry.
Um, became a salesman for ElHart, uh, back when I was 18
years old.
Um, and just worked my waythrough, uh, you know, the ranks
at El Hart.
Uh, that was, uh, I, I rememberback, you know, opening that
detail business.
Really kind of paved the way,uh, kind of grinding through
learning how to.

(02:25):
Create my own business cardsbrand, brand myself, um, you
know, go to a dealership and,you know, let them know about
what I did and, uh, where Ilearned that trade, uh, was a
really good start for me.
So, um, once I really gotthrough El Hart, um, I started
going to college at DavenportUniversity and I commuted.

(02:45):
So I went to school.
Um, my goal and my dream was tohave no debt in college.
Uh, I didn't want to have thatadded stress, so I went all year
round and, uh, at the same time,I still worked at Elkhart while
I went to college.
And that was how I went tocollege.
Went to college debt free.
So, um, you know, through,through that time in my life,

(03:07):
um, I also got married, uh, tomy wife Amanda.
Uh, we've married 22 years and,uh, we were, we're high school
sweethearts.
So, uh, we started dating in myjunior year.
And so she watched me throughthe whole transition when I was.
Detailing, uh, going to college,summer school, um, all those

(03:28):
things where, you know, life wasbusy, life was crazy.
But I'll, when I look atleadership now today, and I, I
look at some of my greatestmemories.
It was back in that crazy timein college when I was, you know,
picking up a car, going toschool, uh, detailing at my
dad's barn, going, going back,dropping it back off at the
dealership.
You know, again, it was a crazyperiod, but it was a great

(03:51):
period.
'cause I learned so much aboutdiscipline, persistence, uh,
financial responsibility.
So, uh, when I was at El Hart,um, again, my goal was just to,
uh, prove myself.
Um, so I was a salesman.
I got promoted in 2004, uh, inthe finance department.
I worked in the financedepartment from 2004 to 2012.

(04:14):
And, um, you know, really whathappened, the reason why I left
Elkhart is my wife and I, um,we.
We felt God calling us.
Um, I'm, I've never heard Godspeak audibly in my life.
I know some people have, Ihaven't.
But we were in a church serviceand we really felt the Holy
Spirit speaking to us at thesame time that we should be
foster parents.
So we, we, we got into thefoster, uh, parent.

(04:38):
Um, we got our foster license in2011 and, uh, we left El Hart in
2012 because I just couldn't,um, our marriage couldn't handle
two foster kids, our ownchildren.
Um, the crazy hours that Iworked at El Heart as a finance
manager, I was working bell tobell every day, Saturdays

(04:59):
nights.
Uh, so that's really whathappened is we really felt like,
uh, how do I be a godly dad?
How do I be a godly father?
How do I follow this, obey Godwhen he wants us to do fostering
and be a finance manager?
So that's really what led usdown a different path.
So, um, kind of a crazy story,but I was at breakfast with a.

(05:21):
Competitor, the guy that trainedme, uh, and he told me about
this opportunity at Zurich.
So, uh, he's like, Dan, you'd bethe perfect fit.
You really need to make, youneed to call this contact.
And I did.
And, you know, one thing led toanother, and that's kind of what
led me to Zurich.
But, um, the Foster, you know,back in 2011 when we decided to

(05:42):
obey God, um, and, and get ourfoster license, that's where
everything kind of changed.
I would say I was kind of in arut.
I was kind of in a working toomany hours allowing my job to
be, uh, you know, the verse inthe Bible talks about being
slave to your lender.
I think, I think I really, Ithink I really allowed work to
be my God, um, too much at thattime.

(06:05):
So, uh, the transition wasamazing.
And, um, we started, you know,uh, we, we started having kids
come in our home, which was amassive blessing, a massive
challenge.
Uh, we can talk about that moreas well.
Uh, and then I went, and then Iwent to Zurich.
Where, where I'm at now.
I've been there, it'll be 13years in September.
So that's kind of the journey,um, of how it all happened

Jason (06:30):
I wanna go back real quick to that.
When you guys decided to startfostering, had you, so you said
you were on a church service andreally felt led, had you guys
talked much about that up untilthat moment?

Dan (06:40):
No, no.
So nothing.
No.
So we, we had, we had our firsttwo children, uh, Malachi and
Cora.
Malachi's 18.
Cora's 16.
Uh, we have five kids, ages 18down to age six.
Um, and our, uh, after we hadour first two children, we were
told medically that we reallyshouldn't have any more

(07:01):
children.
So, um, a couple years later, wejust felt in this church
service, we both felt God, thatwe felt, felt the pole, we felt
the Holy Spirit really talkingto us.
And that's kind of where thatled.

Jason (07:13):
that's amazing.
That's amazing.
Um, yeah, I mean, my wife and Iat one point talked about it
when we were struggling to haveour third and we didn't pursue
it.
But certainly I've, I have avery close friend.
He and his wife have fosteredfive, adopted three of those
five, and working on adoptingthe, the, the remaining two.
And it's, uh, been in incre.
I mean, it's such a, well, Idon't wanna say it's, it's such

(07:37):
a quick change in your life.
I don't wanna say a disruption'cause that sounds too negative,
but I mean, you know, all of asudden you have.
Whatever amount of kids or nokids, and then all of a sudden
the next day you've got two orthree.
And, um, yeah, definitely.
It's a calling.
I mean, it's a, yeah, I just, Ieven just as another story, I
have a lady I serve on a boardwith who's, um, who older than

(08:01):
me or her and her husband areolder than me and they're
fostering two or three youngkids.
And I'm like, what a, I mean,they're called to do it and you
have to be, because it's a hugechallenge.
Um, especially, I mean, they're,yeah, they're not young people
anymore.
I mean, and so that makes iteven more difficult, you know,
uh, to, to do that.
So praise the Lord for thatcalling on your guys' life.

(08:23):
So you have, so still a fullhouse right now.
We usually talk a little bitabout family, you and your wife
and, uh, the children.
Are they all, so they're allstill home.

Dan (08:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Mal, Malachi, uh, is gonna begoing to college, uh, in August
to Camp Ville University inKentucky, um, to wrestle.
And then we have, uh, so Malachiis our oldest, uh, Cora is 16,
then Rena is 11.
Um, those three are biologicalchildren, and then Dolly and

(08:53):
Damien, uh, they are, um, they,um, we adopted them in 2021, so,
um, through Foster.
So we both, we fostered both of'em.
And, uh, just an amazingjourney, a tough journey.
Um, but yeah, so, so that's kindof how that went.

Jason (09:13):
so it, one of the things I always do at the end, Dan, is
make sure that people know howto connect with you.
So I would just say, you know,who knows?
There's a, I'm sure there'speople who've thought about or
praying about fostering,adopting.
So, we'll, uh, yeah, you, youcould offer some words of
wisdom, I'm sure, in that youand your wife.
So we'll make sure.

Dan (09:30):
Yeah, we definitely could.
Yeah.
We've had, it is really cool.
My, my brother, um, you know, sowe, we started, got our license
in 2011.
My brother and his wife, theygot into, involved in the
fostering, uh, got a fosterlicense and then my
sister-in-law, April and Mattand, and brother-in-law they did
as well.
So it kinda, it's a communitything and it's amazing how God u

(09:52):
has used our family, uh, in thatministry.
It's been been incredible.

Jason (09:57):
yeah.
Praise the Lord for what he'sdoing there.
Hey Dan.
Let's talk about your faith alittle bit.
How did you come to know theLord?
You know, was you raised in aChristian home or was it
something later in life?
What's that look like?

Dan (10:07):
Yeah.
So, um, my, you know, my story,um, is when I was seven years
old, my mom and I were on thecouch in our living room and,
uh, you know, we went to church.
Uh, my mom and dad, um, raisedus in a Christian home.
Uh, we went to Central Wesleyanin Holland, Michigan.
And, um, at seven years old, I,she did the prayer with me on

(10:29):
the couch.
She explained what it was, sheexplained the why.
Um, I, I understood, Iunderstood what I was doing.
Um, I don't know that Icompletely, uh, gathered it, but
I, I knew exactly what we weredoing.
And so that's when I acceptedJesus.
When I was a sophomore in highschool.
Uh, you might've heard of DanSeaborne, but, uh, Dan Seaborne
was at our church for a SuperBowl halftime.

(10:52):
Uh, service, uh, when I was asophomore in high school and he
asked about recommitting yourlife to Christ, and he talked
about not being a lukewarm cChristian and what does it mean
to really fully love Jesus?
What does it mean to fullyfollow Jesus?
So I feel like before that time,I was kind of checking the box.
I was kind of just, uh, youknow, doing the motions, uh, not

(11:12):
really living for Jesus.
And so that's when it reallychanged.
That's when I really made the,uh, full charge towards, uh, you
know, walking each day towardsJesus.
Yeah.
So

Jason (11:25):
So what are your, Dan now?
So you're super busy, dad,obviously husband, uh, manager,
uh, mentor.
I know you're a mentor to men.
What are your spiritualdisciplines, Dan?
What do you do to continue togrow in sanctification with the
Lord and stay sharp spiritually?

Dan (11:42):
Yeah.
Uh, several, several things, butI would say a couple things
that, uh, that I do, um, on aregular basis.
Number one, I'm going throughthe.
The year Bible plan right now.
So, um, this mor this morning Iwas in the Book of Job, and so
that is a huge, uh, motivationfor me.
Um, I've done it several times,but, uh, so that's a big deal,

(12:04):
reading the Bible every day.
Um, and then the other one isI'm in an accountability group.
Um, and about 19 years ago, Igot asked to mentor a guy Matt
brought, and then that led into,uh, four or five guys that we've
been going Every two weeks they,we go to a different house, um,
and we read the Bible together.
We pray together, we talk aboutour life, we talk about our

(12:26):
journey.
We really walk side by side, uh,through the challenges of life
together.
We've been doing that for 19years.
Uh, the same, the same guys.
Uh, we've rotated a couple inand out, but for the most part,
the core men of that group have,has never changed.
And I can tell you, we'vewatched each other go through
amazing things.
We've watched each other gothrough really challenging

(12:49):
things, deaths in the family.
Uh, a addiction, you, you nameit.
We've, we've fought hardtogether.
And, uh, that has been a massivediscipline because every two
weeks I got guys asking me, Hey,Dan, how you doing in your
purity?
Hey Dan, are you looking at, areyou looking at anything that you
shouldn't?
How are you doing in your prayerlife?
So that's big.
And then the last thing would bemy cousin, Nate and I, about

(13:12):
four years ago, decided to holdeach other accountable every
week.
So every Monday morning at eight30, we, again, we, we talk about
our walk, we talk about ourprayer life, and, uh, we talk
about what we're doing everyday.
So those are things that, uh,have really transformed my
discipline to be, to be morelike Jesus.
So I would say, uh, those arethe three things that I would,

(13:35):
I'd really, um, you know, Ishare.

Jason (13:39):
yeah.
What, Dan, tell me a little bitmore about the, the group that
you've met with so long.
Like how many guys are in thatroughly?

Dan (13:45):
So right now we have, um, right now we have.
Uh, five of us.
Uh, we've had four, four to fiveof us the entire 19 years.
And yeah, so we, we get togetherevery two weeks.
The first half hour, 45 minutesis every person will share, you
know, where are you in liferight now?
How are you doing in your walkwith God?

(14:06):
Um, is there any challenge?
Is there anything that we needto hold you accountable for?
So that's really the first 45minutes to an hour.
And then from there, we read theBible together.
We talk about, uh, right nowwe're going through a study
called Practicing the Way byJohn Mark Comar, where we're
talking about how do we, how dowe grow close, closer to God
through that study?

(14:27):
Um, and that changes every year.
Um, sometimes, we'll, we gothrough the Book of Proverbs,
sometimes we'll go through adifferent psalm.
Uh, we'll go through the book ofRomans so it changes, uh, each
and every season.
But, uh, that's kind of what wedo.
Um, and again, the same coregroup has never changed.
And, uh, that, that has justblessed my life so, so

Jason (14:49):
um, I'm sure, yeah.
It's incredible.
You've been together that long.
I, I'm, I don't remember who itwas.
There was someone else I had onmy podcast and they similar long
running group and they do, uh,remote'cause they don't live
near each other.
Do you guys go to the samechurch or different churches?

Dan (15:05):
different churches, uh, three of us go to the same
church, uh, and then the othertwo go to different churches.
But, um, yeah, we we're from thesame community.
Um, we, we all, we, three of usgraduated from the same school.
Um, actually four of usgraduated from the same school
and the other one did not.
But, uh, yeah, it's been been abig blessing to my life.

(15:27):
So.

Jason (15:27):
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Good for you.
Hey, let's talk a little bitabout leadership, Dan.
Um.
As a leader, like what are thethings that you go back to the
foundations of your leadershipstyle?
What are the, you know, kind ofkey principles that you always
go back to?

Dan (15:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would say, um, number onewould be, um, empowering others.
Um, when I was a, a new manager,I remember the first three
months as a new manager.
I remember talking to my mentorabout this, but I felt like I
was trying to be Superman.
I was trying to just runeverywhere, anywhere and just,

(16:03):
you know, conquer the world,conquer my job, conquer whatever
problem there was.
I had the solution.
I, I could be anywhere,everywhere I could answer the
phone at any time of the day.
And, uh, I just remember feelingso exhausted and feeling so,
like, I, I wasn't accomplishinganything.
I was, I was just trying to, uh,be the fixer.

(16:24):
Um, so I always go back toempowering others.
Uh, number one where I wanna beable to delegate the right
things.
I want to be able to delegatethe right approaches.
Uh, and then number two is Ithink, you know, the right form
of communication andaccountability, um, for me.
Transparent, transparency andcommunication is everything.

(16:44):
If my team, if the people groupI'm leading doesn't know the
why, doesn't know, uh, the what,um, really how are we gonna be
successful.
So for us, that transparency hasbeen really, really big.
But I think allowing them to,you know, like I said, how I
failed at trying to conquereverything.
I think where I really grew andwhere I've really learned is
that when I, when I can allow totrust them to do it, um, but to

(17:10):
support them and encourage them,and to challenge them, that's
where we've really grown so, somuch.
Um, and I, I'll talk about thisa little later, but I went
through a book series with our,with a team that I lead called,
uh, extreme Ownership by JockoWillink.

Jason (17:25):
Yeah, I know that

Dan (17:26):
Yeah, great.
Great book.
And Jocko's just incredible.
And, uh, we've watched a lot ofYouTube videos with him.
Uh, we've also gone through thisbook with him and that, that
book really allowed our team toreally.
Again, empowering others.
Um, how can each person besuccessful?
Not, not how can I besuccessful, but how can I help

(17:47):
support them, encourage them?
Uh, so those would be really thefirst two, empowering others.
And then that, thattransparency.
But then the last one would be,uh, the accountability, uh,
piece.
You know, in my career I'vewatched, I think that's the, the
area that I've watched so manymanagers and so many leaders
where it's like, okay, if I'mgonna be a, if I'm gonna hold
someone accountable, I'm gonnayell at'em.

(18:08):
I'm gonna degrade'em.
I'm gonna, I'm going tomicromanage them.
And so I think the approach I'vetried to take is how do I love
them with accountability?
Um, I don't need to yell at'em.
I don't need to micromanage'em,but I can ask a really good
question and hold'emaccountable, right?
I can be a, have a lovingquestion, a loving approach, a
loving tone, and still hold themaccountable.

(18:31):
And I think that's where I.
My mentor and I have reallytalked a lot about that topic, a
lot about that approach.
And I think that's where, notthat I've mastered it at all,
Jason, but I think I've reallygrown, I really have an ability
now with my team to, if I ask aquestion the right way, uh, it's
amazing the response I'll get.
And it's amazing how they wannarun through a wall for me.

(18:51):
I wanna run through a wall forthem.
And, um, you know, I reallylearned that from my dad.
I really learned from watchinghim bleed.
And, uh, so that's what I wouldsay is my core principles right
there.

Jason (19:03):
I want to, that's, those are, those are really, really
good.
I want to dig in a little bitmore on the empowerment side.
I agree with it.
One thing.
I think that leaders, well, Ithink it's very common for new
leaders to struggle with thatand maybe even some seasoned
leaders.
And I think the first thing thatpops into our head is, I can't
trust this person to do this.
They're gonna fail.
We're gonna fail.

(19:24):
And I, I struggled with that.
I've struggled with it.
Talk a little bit about how doyou, how have you personally as
a manager, balanced, like, I'mgonna, I'm gonna give this
person empowerment, I'm gonnagive'em enough rope, but at the
end of the day, I know as theteam leader, the group leader,
I'm responsible for the outcome.
So I can't let us failcatastrophically, but I, but I

(19:47):
can let this person struggle andfail a little bit.
Like, you know, that safety netis how I think about I'm gonna,
you know, it gets away frommicromanagement, but you also
can't be completely hands offand say, well this person.
This person failed.
And so it's really their fault.
What you're as the manager, youown it still.
So talk a little bit about, youknow, do you, how do you, how do

(20:08):
you balance that?
Because I know that's a strugglethat people, uh, work through.

Dan (20:12):
it, it definitely is a struggle and it's a definitely a
struggle in leadership to knowthat fine balance.
But for, for me, what I, I wouldsay, to answer that question,
Jason, that um, I had a recenthire about a year ago where.
Uh, I think this is a reallygood example.
Uh, and I could just see thatthis person that I hired was
really overwhelmed.
I had given them a lot of, youknow, teaching and coaching and

(20:35):
training.
Hey, this is how you do it.
This is what you're gonna do.
Um, here's your territory.
These are the customers andhere's your prospects.
All, all of those details.
And then I kinda, I kinda, um,gave some space and said, okay,
I'm gonna let them breathe.
I'm gonna let them do their job.
I'm gonna let them really startto learn.
And I think one big part of itis failure is part of success,

(20:56):
right?
You have to fail.
You have to fail if you're gonnasucceed.
So, um, I allowed him a lot ofspace and I could, I remember,
uh, I had to go to Toledo forany event, and I could just tell
that when I was on the phonewith him that he was just at his
breaking point and I needed to,I needed to jump in the boat
with him and help him, or, um,it, it, you know, for that

(21:17):
analogy.
So I, um, I drove down toToledo.
I gave him a call and said, Hey,let's go ahead.
Let's meet for breakfast.
Uh, tomorrow morning, and he'slike, all right, that sounds
good.
And we sat for like three hoursand I just supported him.
I listened to him.
I didn't fix anything for him,but I was just there, uh, to, to
listen, to hear him out.

(21:38):
He talked about how overwhelmedhe was.
He talked about how he didn'trealize, uh, you know, how, um,
much some of these tasks wouldbe.
And I just, and I just listened.
So I think, you know, I thinkthe balance is, uh, you don't
wanna step in.
The mistake I made in this firstyear of, of a leadership was I
would've, I would've went andfixed it for'em, right?

(22:00):
I would've, I would've just donethe task for'em.
And I think that's the errorleaders, leaders make is even,
even when they're overwhelmed,even when they're at their
breaking point, uh, going in andjust doing it for'em is actually
making it worse, not better.
And I think that's where I, I.
When I met with him in Toledoand we met for breakfast.
He actually brought this up theother day to me.

(22:20):
He's like, Hey, remember when wewere in Toledo at breakfast?
I'm like, yeah, I do.
Um, he's like, man, that was soawesome.
It was so great that we just satthere and we just talked.
And he cared so much that Idrove and I met with him and I
listened to him and I cared forhim.
And that's, that's, hopefullythat's what you get out of it,
is, you know, the, the, the, thebalance is, um, that you're

(22:43):
there and you support, but youdon't fix, uh, every time.
Um, and I, I know that that's anarea that I've had to really,
um, look at the mirror andreally self-reflect myself.
'cause that's where I probablymade the most mistakes.
And, uh, that's where I'vereally grown.

Jason (23:00):
Yeah, jumping in too early.
Jumping in too early and takingover.
I think that support is huge.
Letting people know that youunderstand and you're supporting
them.
And I've, you know, I've told myteam, especially when you have
someone new as your example,you're not really, everybody
ramps up at a different speed.
And so I've tried to, you know,give new people plenty to do.

(23:22):
I don't want him to be bored,but also say, Hey, if you get
overwhelmed, like, let me know.
I don't want you to just bestruggling and be overwhelmed
and not say anything.
'cause I can, yeah, I can helpin some ways.
I can listen.
Possibly, um, you know, pullback some of that work.
But No, that's good.
I think that's huge.
Um, the other piece you talkedabout on that accountability,

(23:43):
it's funny, Nate, Nate and I,your cousin talked about that
very same thing and how you can,you should, you must as a
Christian leader, uh, be able tohold people accountable in still
a loving way.
And you know, that's to, to doboth.
'cause really, you think aboutour children, right?
I mean, you're a dad of manychildren and it's the same model

(24:04):
that we, we, we hold'emaccountable because we love'em.
Not'cause we're angry at'em.
And, you know, when we, when wehold accountable and anger,
that's not right, that's sinfuland we do it.
I mean, it's something we haveto be on guard about, but coming
alongside somebody.
And I think that a frustrationthat I, I know I get and people
get in the accountability pieceis if they weren't clear on the
expectations.

(24:26):
Like, you're holding meaccountable for something I
didn't really understand youexpected of me.
And so.
Yeah, that's important thatwe're reiterating clear
expectations with people all thetime, so there's no surprise.
I know.
Again, it's, you know, somethingthat'll frustrate anyone.
Super quickly on that, when youwere a young leader, you talked
a little bit about this, Dan,already.
Maybe it's on the, this, thispiece we just, uh, discussed,

(24:48):
but like, what was the biggeststruggle that you had as a young
leader?
Have you overcome it?
Have you worked through it?
You know, do you still have tomanage it or have you just like
had total victory over whateverthat was?

Dan (25:02):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I did kind of alreadyspeak about it, but I, I would
say, um, we did a surveyrecently, um, where our Zurich
hired a, hired an outside sourceto do a, a coaching survey with
our team.
So every single one of my, um,employees, uh, got a survey and
they had to answer questionsabout does Dan micromanage?

(25:22):
How is he as a leader?
Um, I mean, a lot of really,really tough questions.
I remember when we got theresults back, I was watching.
I was with all the leaders atthe same time.
When we got the results, I waswatching body language.
I was watching the way peoplereacted.
And when I looked at thoseresults and I saw scores of, you
know, uh, one of my worst scoresthat I received as a leader was

(25:45):
micromanagement.
Um, I got some really highscores, but I got some low
scores in micromanagement.
And, and then at the very bottomthere's comments about why they
chose those answers.
And when I read the comments,um, I had to really prepare
myself and go, okay, okay, God,how am I gonna handle this
negativity?
Am I going to let it bring medown?

(26:06):
Am I gonna let it bring me up?
Am I gonna respond well?
And I remember when I read thecomments, one of'em was, uh,
that exact thing I talked about.
I was trying to be Superman.
I was trying to conquer thewhole world.
And one of the comments was oneof my employees said, Dan, um,
you're trying to do too much.
You're trying to fix too much.
Do too much.
And.
I just remember reading that andhaving to kind of take a couple

(26:28):
deep breaths and go, okay, howam I gonna respond to this?
Right.
What am I gonna do?
And that's, uh, that's where Ireally drew, right.
I talked about failure beingpart of success, and I've made
some many mistakes as a leader,and that's one of the mistakes,
greatest mistakes I've made istrying to conquer too much.
So, um, that survey was sopowerful because I think some of

(26:49):
the leaders in that roomresponded differently.
Some of'em reacted differently.
And the way I responded was Idid individual calls with each
one of my teammates and I sharedmy results and I said, Hey, I
want to talk about the resultsthat I received on this survey.
So I shared'em and then I sharedwith'em my plan going forward,
what am I gonna do about it?
Um, how am I gonna respond?

(27:11):
Uh, so that's really what I did.
And, um, I would say one otherarea I would like to touch on
with it is I.
You know, it's not, it is notjust, you know, the weakness,
you know, I'm trying to conquertoo much.
I'm trying to do too much, butit's also on a daily basis.
Um, you know, I think my team'sgonna wanna run through a wall
for me if I have humility.

(27:33):
And I really didn't talk inleadership principles that much
about humility, but I thinkhumility can be lost in
leadership because it's like,oh, he's too nice, he's too
kind.
He's, he, he needs to be moredirect.
And I was told in everyinterview, uh, when I tried to
be getting into management backearly in my career, you're too
nice, Dan.
You're too nice.
You're gonna get, you're gonnaget, uh, eaten up in the, in the

(27:55):
management world.
You're gonna get eaten up in theleadership world.
And it's actually done theopposite.
I've grown and I've gotten, youknow, more awards and more
accolades because of myhumility, not the opposite.
And I think, I think having ahumble approach doesn't mean
you're gonna lose.
Having a humble approach.
You can also hold peopleaccountable.
You can also encourage, you canalso care, but you can also

(28:17):
challenge.
And uh, so I think that was aweakness, but it also was a
strength.
Yeah.

Jason (28:22):
Yeah, it always reminds me of a, a book that I read last
year, I think it's calledRadical Candor, and it just
talks about, it's reallyspeaking the truth in love.
This is not a book written by a.
Professing Christian.
It's not, um, you know, there'sno scripture.
And I would tell you it's basedon a biblical truth.
And that is speaking the truthand love, the really good book

(28:45):
that talks about these thingsthat, you know, that honesty,
that radical candor of, we'regonna be honest, but not in a, a
demeaning or negative, uh, waywith people.
Uh, so they know where theystand and, you know, it's, it's
the right thing.
It's the right thing to do.
In fact, and I've had thisconversation with myself and
I've had it with other leaders,that when you're not, you know,

(29:07):
you, your excuse sometimes is,well, I, you know, I don't
wanna, I don't wanna hurt theirfeelings, or I don't wanna,
well, what it really is, is youdon't wanna have that difficult
conversation.
You know, it's a pride issue.
You don't want it, it's, it'syou, you don't wanna have the
difficult conversation.
It's the right thing to do.
Um, and you can't excuseyourself, uh, out of it.

(29:28):
Uh, Dan, so you work in a, uh,you're working in a secular
environment like I do.
Um, but you're a strongbeliever.
Like what are some things thatyou do in your work to honor
Christ through your workpractically?
How do you, how do you try to dothat?

Dan (29:44):
yeah.
Um, I would say number one is Itry to make God a part of
everything I do.
Every conversation, uh, everymeeting.
Um, you know, I, it, it wascrazy.
I, we have, um, you know,secular meetings that we do all
the time, um.
And we were at a meetingrecently where, um, another
leader came up to me and said,Hey, Dan, would you lead, would

(30:06):
you lead us in prayer beforedinner?
Uh, we were at a restaurant, wewere at a public event.
Uh, and I said, yeah, I'd loveto.
And I was a little surprised bythe ask.
I was like, wow.
Uh, but it was really cool.
And I've had, I've been asked todo that multiple times at
multiple, multiple differentevents and venues.
And so I think, I think thereason I was asked is because I

(30:27):
don't hide my faith at work.
Right?
I don't try to go to work.
I don't try to be on a call.
Uh, I think sometimes asChristians, we can try to be,
uh, following Jesus on Sundayand worshiping, and, you know,
our hands are in the air andwe're, we're very vocal about
it.
But then when we're at work,it's like, that's a different,
you know, life.
Right?
And I, I, I try to, I try to, Idon't try to be, you know, over

(30:51):
vocal or try to shout my faith,but I try to live it out by the
example I set with everything Ido.
So.
If I'm talking, if someone asksme about my family or my
weekend, I'm talking about myfaith.
I'm talking about, uh, you know,that's, that's my life.
So I would say, uh, that's thefirst part.
And then the other one is likethe integrity piece.

(31:12):
Jason.
I mean, I think, uh, don't youthink that integrity speaks
volumes about our faith?
I mean, I think that the, thedecisions that I make, you know,
the gray area in leadership of,Hey, do I do this or do I or do
I, do I say yes to this?
And I know it's in the grayarea.
I know it could be right, itcould be wrong.
I could justify it.
I think that speaks volumesabout our faith as well.

(31:33):
Um, I'm, I'm fortunate at Zurichto be part of a, they have a
faith-based platform called GoodNews.
So every week, on Wednesdaymorning, I'm on a Bible study
with, uh, about 12 other peopleat work, uh, which is just
incredible and amazing.
And then they have a platformwhere there's bible verses.
There's.
Uh, worship service.

(31:54):
There's all kinds of things thatare posted on a daily basis.
Um, so I'm really blessed thatat work I'm worship, worshiping
God at work because I'm a partof a platform that work has put
on and sponsored.
So, uh, I'm very grateful forthat and I'm very grateful that
Zurich allows me to express myfaith through good news and
express my faith through.

(32:14):
I was able, I got asked to sharemy testimony through good news
about a year and a half ago.
And so I was on a road trip, um,up in Traverse City and I was
actually sharing my testimony onmy phone, on my car because
that's all I could access attechnology at the time.
Um, and whoever else was on thatcall from Zurich with good news,
heard my testimony and talkedabout my struggle with lust when

(32:36):
I was a teenager and my book andall that stuff.
So, um, those are the ways thatI really try to connect with
people at work.
Um, and just by, you know, beingreally true to myself, um.
With my faith, and like I said,living it out every day, not
just over the weekend.
I think that is really key.

Jason (32:57):
Yeah.
I thi I really appreciate whatyou said about it just comes out
because it's who you are and youknow, like you said with
someone, you very commonconversation on Monday is, Hey,
how was your weekend?
Or on Friday, what's your plansfor the weekend?
And.
also would share that, you know,that's, it's just gonna come out

(33:17):
because it's such a part of yourlife, your faith and your, your,
your, your church relationshipsand activities that you're
doing.
Hey, Monday night I go to men'sgroup, so yeah, that's just
gonna come out.
Well, I'm going to hang out withsome guys from my church
tonight.
And for, I think for me, Iwonder if you would say the same
thing is, you know, once thatpeople know who you are as a
whole person, they know thatDan, or they know that Ja, you

(33:39):
know, Jason, they're active intheir faith, they're Christians.
Okay.
That, that's been established.
And then now I feel a higherlevel of accountability to
myself and the Lord for when Ido things at work that aren't
Christ-like.
And I just am convicted of that.
'cause I'm like, okay, thesepeople know that I'm a

(34:00):
professing Christian.
All of them, because, you know,I've been there and just like
you said, it just comes out.
I'm not, not because I'mproselytizing and out trying to
convert people, although if thatconversation comes up, we'll
have it.
But then the, the additional, Iwould say, conviction for me of
man, you know, I, whatever Iacted like, I sh you know, in a,

(34:21):
in a sinful way, essentially atwork because of what I said or
what I did.
And I'm like, man, these people,you know, how's that?
How does that, that dishonorsthe Lord?
And it's like a once once that'sbeen made public.
And if you're living your faithin that way and working in a way
that's just, you're open to whoyou are, there's that additional
accountability I feel, for me atleast.

Dan (34:45):
Definitely, definitely a hundred percent.
I think, I think that, you know,we talked about the gray area,
and I think as leaders, youknow, I, I travel in my job, um,
and so I said this to my wife along time ago.
I said, you really find really,truly who you are when you're in
a hotel, when you're away fromyour family in another city, in
another country.

(35:05):
And it's like.
Who are you when you're inChicago or Texas or Europe, when
your family's home and youreally, are you living out, are
you making the right decisions?
Are you going out too late?
And what, what are you actinglike around the people that
you're with?

Jason (35:21):
And yeah, nobody, yeah, nobody there.
And even I'll say that thetravel, because I, I don't
travel a ton for work, but Ihave over the years and you
know, there's times you're in acity and even not with anyone
from your, that you work with,you're just, because you're
going to a conference orwhatever, and it's like, who are
you when there's no one there,no human eyes to hold you
accountable, and it's just youand the Lord.

(35:43):
Yeah.
That's huge.

Dan (35:45):
Yeah.
Nate, Nate and I both travel forour, our jobs.
And so we, that, that is aconversation we talk about all
the time, about who are we, whoare we in a hotel?
Who are we in another cityversus who are we at home?
And if my wife saw me in a workenvironment, who, what would she
say?
What would she, what would shesee?
And so I think those challengingquestions really are important

(36:08):
when you really talk about ourfaith, um, you know, in, at the
workplace.
It's really big.
So, um, yeah, I, I did an eventrecently where I was at work
and, um, you know, I had areally kind of test myself.
I was out late with a group ofpeople and, um, I had, I had to
go, okay, how am I gonna be?
Jesus?
You know, sometimes at workthere's, there's drinking,

(36:30):
there's, uh, not, not sayingthat there's, you know,
craziness happening, but, youknow, in, in that world that can
happen.
And so I just re I, I try toreally, um, be godly in those
situations and I really try tolook at how do I, um, even
though maybe, um, even thoughmaybe at that situation I'm not,

(36:52):
you know, asking someone to talkabout my testimony, right?
I can still be Jesus in thatsituation.
And that's really a really, Ithink that's where I shine the
most is.
In those situations, I think Ican really, uh, love them,
listen to them, um, and reallybe, be Christlike, uh, you know,
even in a secular situation.

(37:13):
Yeah.

Jason (37:14):
I've had two times I've had an opportunity that I was
very glad to have, um, to wheresomebody I worked with started
coming to church, to my churchand I'm like, man, this person's
seeing me in all the areas, andit really makes you think, am I
being.
You know, is there integrity?
Is there true integrity there?
'cause now this person, youknow, and again, these two,

(37:34):
these two men, uh, have alsobeen at my house.
We're friends now.
We don't work together now, butwe have off and on a couple
times.
So they see me at church, theysee me at work, you know, they
see me in my home and I'm like,these guys really know who I am.
And you know, they, yeah,they've, they've stayed with me.
So that's good.
They must see some level ofintegrity and I'm thankful for
that.

(37:54):
So that's good.
Hey Dan, I wanna talk a littlebit about, uh, leadership.
Like, how do you stay sharpthere?
Who do you read?
Who do you follow?
Is there podcasts?
I always like to, uh, you know,find out about new resources
that, uh, other godly leadersare using to, to keep themselves
sharp in that area.

(38:15):
So who do you got for us?

Dan (38:17):
Yeah, I, I mentioned earlier, jock of Willink and
Extreme Ownership.
Um, I would EI would encourage,um, doing a, I think, um, having
a, uh, book study with yourteam.
Um, I've done it a couple timesnow and I think, um, I think it
can be ineffective, but I thinkif you look at your approach and
do it, you know, if you reallylook at how are you gonna

(38:38):
approach this, it can be very,very effective.
So we did, as I mentioned, wedid, uh, the extreme ownership
and we read one chapter a week.
It's not a really large book,but it's a very powerful book.
And then we review each chapterevery week with our team.
And talk about different areasthat we thought it could relate
to our team and relate to theprogress of the culture.

(39:00):
Where does this book relate tothe culture of our team?
So that one was really, really,really important.
Um, and then servant leader.
Um, I think that's another one.
Um, if I look at, uh, podcast,uh, Craig, Rochelle has a
leadership podcast.
And I would say out of all thepodcasts I listen to, it's like
every single sentence I wannastop, pause, and write down.

(39:23):
I wanna write down every wordthat he says.
'cause it's just so good.
It's like, it's like Craig, Ithink Craig really understands
with all of, uh, his ministryand what he's done in his career
and how much he's grown lifechurch, it's like he really
understands, uh, working withpeople, the highs, the lows, the
challenges.
So I would say those would be,um, the biggest ones.

(39:44):
And then I.
Uh, Nate told me about on aChristian, uh, biblical side, he
told me about John Mark Comer,um, practicing the way.
Have you heard of that one?
Practicing the Way?

Jason (39:54):
Well, just from Nate, I hadn't before.

Dan (39:56):
before.
Okay.
Yeah.
So practicing the way aboutbeing a disciple of Jesus, um, I
think that one is probably themost powerful, uh, thing I've
gone through recently.
Um, I'm not all the way throughit right now, but it's really
about how do you be a discipleof Jesus?
Um, how do you be more likeJesus each and every day, um,

(40:17):
not just as a leader, but in allaspects of your life.
So, um, I'm, Nate already wentthrough it.
I'm in the middle of it rightnow.
Um, we're actually going throughit with our, with my core
accountability group.
And, um, it's talking aboutsolitude.
It's talking about your prayerlife.
It's talking about, you know,all the different things that we
should be thinking of on aweekly, monthly basis, um, to be

(40:40):
a disciple of Jesus.
So that's been really, reallygood.
Um, I've, I've really enjoyed

Jason (40:46):
that's a book that you're going through, like a workbook.

Dan (40:49):
Yeah, it's a workbook.
They have practice in theway.org.
They have, um, all kinds of,there's a spiritual survey where
they, a spiritual aptitude testwhere they'll ask you a series
of like 50 questions of whereare you on your spiritual
journey?
And then each week they talkabout a different way to be a
disciple of Jesus.
Um, so practice in the way hasbeen, I think, I think John Mark

(41:11):
did a really good job of kind ofbreaking it down to the basics
of, you know, believing inJesus.
Um, so that's been really,really, uh, powerful as well.
So those would be the thingsthat for sharpening my faith.
Um, yeah.

Jason (41:27):
So let's talk a little bit about, we've hit on your
book a couple times, but I dowanna give you a chance to, I
would like to understand what,what drove you to do to write a
book at all, and on that topic,and like, what's that experience
been like?
And a little bit about the bookas well.
So tell us about that.

Dan (41:46):
Yeah.
So, um, I struggled with, uh, infifth grade.
Fifth grade was the first timethat I was exposed to porn.
Um, and so I struggled on andoff through my teenage years,
uh, when I was a sophomore inhigh school.
Um, I'll never ever forget this,um, but my sophomore in high

(42:06):
school, I was, uh, I got homefrom school and I was looking at
porn, um, at my house, uh, as a16-year-old kid.
And my brother, uh, went intothe house.
He got home from school as well,and he went on the history and
the computer and he saw what Iwas looking at and he challenged
me and said, Dan, what are youdoing?

(42:26):
What are you looking at?
And I kind of just got reallyquiet.
And my dad was a lieutenant, uh,with the road division, uh,
police officer and my dad.
I see.
The police car pull into ourdriveway.
Um, my dad got home from work,so I see my dad walk in in his
uniform and my brother's like,dad, we need to talk.
Dan was, uh, you know, made abig mistake.

(42:47):
So we went into our living room.
My dad's like, what did you, youknow, I broke down.
Um, and my dad was like, youknow, what did you do?
What did you look at?
So that was kind of my, my firststopping point to going, oh my
gosh, what am I doing?
What is this?
How is this disrupting my life?
So, um, I'm so thankful that mybrother caught me and I'm so
thankful that my dad pulled inwhen he did.

(43:09):
It's amazing how God works andit's amazing how God moves.
And so that was the startingpoint of my journey to, um, I
didn't start writing the bookobviously then, but fast forward
to getting married.
Um, I was in, um, you know,premarital counseling and I
probably should have been moreaggressive on.

(43:30):
The way that I approached, uh,my struggle with lust and I, I
should have done a better job.
So I kind of brought lust intomy marriage where it wasn't
completely gone.
I, it was still a problem.
It wasn't an everyday problem,but it was a problem that it
didn't go away.
It didn't, I didn't, I didn'tdeal with it the right way.
So, um, when I got married, um,my friend and I were lifting

(43:52):
weights.
Uh, he was my best friend, uh,Scott.
And, uh, he, he said, Dan, youdon't seem like yourself.
You seem like you've just beenstruggling lately.
You just seem like you have alot on your mind.
And I kind of opened up to him,just said, man, I've dealt with
loss since fifth grade.
I've kind of been, you know, I,I, I'm struggling with it.
I'm not struggling with it.
Uh, he's like, dude, you gottafigure this out.

(44:13):
This is, this is not okay.
Does your wife know about it?
I'm like, well, yes and no.
So that is really where, um, youknow, kind of, it kind of,
everything kind of stopped.
Um, I shared with my wife.
The struggle was more than whatI really told her.
I shared with her that it wasreally an addiction.
Um, I started to get help.
We went to counseling.

(44:34):
I went to counseling, and I justfelt, I told my dad, I just felt
like my dad and mom, that I justfelt like God calling me to
write about it.
Um, I felt like God was saying,I kept saying back to God, I'm
not a writer.
I, I don't know how to write.
And, and, and God kept saying,well, I want you to write.
I want you to write about it.
So I made a commitment to Godfor a year that I would, uh,

(44:55):
spend an hour a day writingabout it.
So I woke up at an hour earlierevery day.
I woke up at 4:35 AM and I wrotefor an hour every day for a
year.
And that's what created my book,um, is that that daily
discipline for writing for anhour every day.
So, um, that's kind of how thebook came to be.
And, um, I've, you know, justreally grateful that, uh, I was,

(45:18):
you know, disciplined enough toactually follow through and do
it.
And, um, you know, I'm gratefulmy dad said, Dan.
No matter how confident orunconfident you are as a writer,
if you can change one lifethrough this book, uh, if you
can obey God and change onelife, that's what matters.
And so I'm really grateful thatI did it.
There's been a lot ofopportunity that's come from it,

(45:39):
um, with just trying to, youknow, so many guys call me and
say, Hey, Dan, can, can I sharewith you, um, my, my journey?
And what's really gonna shockyou, Jason, is I spoke recently
at a youth event and, you know,everybody thinks that just guys
struggle with this issue, right?
It's a, it's a teenage boything.

(45:59):
It's not.
And so I had, um, I had threeteen, I had three teenage, you
know, 15 to 18 year, year agewomen come up to me and tell me
about their struggle becauseit's so rampant nowadays with
technology and your phone,social media, Instagram,
Facebook, uh, Snapchat.
So, uh, that's why I wrote thebook.
And I really feel like God'scalled me.

(46:19):
I.
Till the day I die, to reallytry to help men, women with this
issue, and to be vocal about itand to really be bold about it.
So I try to be bold and I try tobe vocal about how, uh, it's so
damaging to your brain.
It's so damaging to your body,and, uh, it's very toxic on what
it does to your attitude.
My attitude towards my wife isthe greatest thing that changed

(46:42):
with, with porn, the way Itreated her, the way I talked to
her, the way I reacted to her.
And I'm ashamed of it.
But I'm really thankful that Godhas used me as a tool and as a
ve uh, as a vessel for himthrough my failure and through
my struggle.
So that's what I would shareabout my book.

Jason (46:59):
No, I appreciate that.
Uh, Dan, we will link to thebook, I'm guessing Ken or
Amazon, he's, I can link to itright on Amazon and I'll

Dan (47:06):
You can.
Yep.
Um.

Jason (47:09):
when you said it might surprise me about some of the
younger ladies, I recently readan article and I'm, I wish I
could remember where it was andI cannot.
It was, it was eye-openingarticle about, um, I was it
Gallup, somebody.
Man, I wish I could remembernow, but somebody has done a,
you know, a legit social surveyin the last couple of years.

(47:31):
I almost wanna say it's Gallup.
It was, it was a, it was a, itwas a well-known, um, surveyor,
I think, I think it was Gallup,but forgive me for not knowing.
It was a fascinating article.
The statistics were, when I sayfascinating, were, uh, really,
they were shocking because what,basically what I got from it,

(47:52):
um, was the amount of youngwomen now that are the
percentage of young women andwe're talking Yeah, late teens,
early twenties, you know, intothe thirties, whatever
generation.
They, and they bucketed it bygeneration, and I'm not an
expert in that.
Don't, I don't remember whatgeneration that is now, but of
that, that generation now that'sincreasingly more, um, you know,

(48:15):
when they have an anonymoussurvey that they're answering.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I view porn on aregular basis.
Uh, certainly I wasn't surprisedthe the men because I know
that's a real issue and has beenfor a long time.

Dan (48:26):
Mm-hmm.

Jason (48:27):
Um, with a, with, with men.
I mean, that's a problem andit's, unfortunately, it's very
easy to, you know, hide.
It's easy to access.
I wor I have two boys.
I have two boys and the onedaughter that I've raised.
And I worry that's one of theprobably the biggest things, uh,
that I worry about with my twoboys and the, you know, how it
can impact your, your spiritualwalk and your relationship.

(48:48):
So, yeah, it's a huge problem.
So I think that's, um, just a, agiant amount of courage for you
to, uh, have written that bookand talk about it.
And so again, we'll link, we'lllink to the book.
We're gonna let people know howthey can get ahold of you, uh,
for encouragement.
There's another, um, a gentlemanI had on the podcast, uh, over a
year ago, and actually he's amutual friend of mine and Nate's

(49:11):
that, um, shared some similarexperiences and has done a lot
of things from a ministrystandpoint, uh, to help men in
that area.
So.
Yeah.
So thank you for, uh, thank youfor sharing that.

Dan (49:22):
Yeah, no problem.

Jason (49:23):
but yeah, it's become, it's, it, it's, it's becoming a
bigger problem, I guess, is whatI'll say.
And I, and I'm really, I'mhopeful and prayerful that even
you can't legislate this out,but it is, I was just listening
yesterday to a news podcast, aChristian news source I listened
to, and it was a commentator andhe was, you know, discussing

(49:44):
how, um, we put so manyrestriction, age restrictions,
identification restrictions onso much, like, you can't go buy
alcohol, right?
You can't go buy cigarettes andall these things that are good
that we legislate.
And yet anyone with any mobiledevice at any age can go access

(50:05):
very, very deadly, deadly, uh,poison.
I mean, it, it is, and it'sjust, it's just it, a society.
I, I pray that we'll at leastbegin to.
I'd love to see it be illegal,honestly.
I mean, I'd love to see it justbe out already legal, if people
really understood the social,the social impact, the negative
social impact it has, it'shaving on people.

(50:26):
Um, but at least to push back alittle.

Dan (50:29):
yeah.
One of the chapters that I writeabout in there, Jason, is, uh,
sorry, I didn't mean tointerrupt

Jason (50:33):
No, go for it.

Dan (50:35):
one of the chapters I write about is radical awareness, and
you just, you just hit on it.
But, uh, you know, I have a, Ihave a sophomore, I have a
senior.
Um, I have kind of all ages downto six.
And, and I remember my son,Malachi, when he was, uh, like
10 years old.
I was already talking to himabout it because, I don't know
if you knew this, but the, theaverage age is struggle is

(50:56):
already third grade.
Third grade.
They're already getting exposed.
Because you, you, yeah.
You just said it like they'reon, they're on their mom and
dad's phone and they can accessYouTube, they can access and,
you know, all theseinappropriate videos, all these
inappropriate shows.
Um, so I just think the earlier,and I talk about my book, but I
think the earlier that we cantalk about, about it with our

(51:16):
kids, the earlier that we canexpose it, um, sometimes parents
look at, oh, I, I wanna hide'emfrom it.
Um, and I think that I, Iencourage to do the opposite.
I encourage to expose it, totalk about it.
Um, my daughter's actually, mydaughter Rena in fifth grade is
actually at a purity week withmy, with my wife right now.
She's, she's there, um, my wifeand I are doing a

(51:39):
mother-daughter purity weekendwhere they're actually talking
with a group of people, uh, atMarina in Muskegon, all about
purity and all about, um, allthat topic.
And my daughter's in fifth gradeand she's already, you know, at
an event for that, um, thatexact thing.
So I think it's just really coolthat we're talking about it now
because.
It is not a, uh, it's not aHolland Michigan issue.

(52:01):
It's a worldwide pro.
It's a worldwide, worldwide, uh,problem.

Jason (52:06):
Yeah, it is.
Absolutely.
Um, last, uh, question, so tosay, before we talk about how
people can reach out to you andstuff, but Dan, let's say, and
maybe you've had this happen,someone comes to you young, uh,
individual contributor, andthey're like, Hey, I got my
first opportunity to go be asupervisor, team leader,
manager, whatever.

(52:26):
I'd like to sit down with you,Dan, and get some advice from a
seasoned leader.
What, what advice in generalwould you have for someone
moving for the first time intoa, a leadership role?

Dan (52:37):
Uh, what I would say is, and I wish I would've said this
earlier when you asked me aboutauthors, but there's, uh, a book
called The Outward Mindset bythe Arbinger Institute.
Uh, it is, um, I'll, I'll getthe information on it, but it is
the best.
I would say it's the best bookthat I've ever read on.
You know, whether you're aseasoned leader, a new leader,
and the outward mindset shares astory in that book about the

(52:58):
owner of um, Madison SquareGarden and how this owner, once
a week would go and every week,even though he was the owner and
he was a wealthy, wealthy,wealthy individual, once a week
he would go and do ticket salesonce a week.
He would go and help people findtheir seat, right?
He put a apron on and servepopcorn and people would have no

(53:21):
idea that he was the owner, noidea that he was a
multi-billionaire.
But yet at the same time, hewould put that apron on and
serve popcorn.
And I think that outwardmindset, I would share with
that, you know, person thatwanted to be a leader, that
person that wanted to go intothat field, you know, never get
too smart, right?
Never get to a point whereyou're unable to do those other

(53:43):
roles and serve and help andsupport.
So I think.
The outward mindset.
We did a study on it with ourteam last year where, um, we did
different exercises for thatbook.
But I think it's reallychallenged me as a leader, not
that I can, um, be superman and,and do too much, but how can I
make sure that I can relate toeverybody on every level?

(54:04):
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter what your jobtitle is, doesn't matter if
you're the owner, if you're theexecutive vice president.
We need to be able to relate tothe person serving popcorn just
as much as we do to the personthat is, you know, the executive
vice president or executivepresident.
Um, so that book has reallyspoke to me about the humility
of that owner.

(54:25):
Um, and I've even seen somestories in the outward mindset
of different owners that willput their offices, they'll put
their offices in differentplaces of the building just so
they can relate better to theirteam versus where it's a level
base.
So I, I would say that bookwould be, uh, something that I
would share with'em and then.
Some other principles that Iwould share is just back to the

(54:46):
basics, right?
Um, as a leader, I think, um,one of the worst things that we
do as leaders is we enablemediocrity.
We enable, um, we allow failure,right?
We're like, okay, well maybe Ishouldn't say something.
'cause I don't wanna hurt, youknow, I don't wanna upset them.
I don't want them to get mad.
I don't want them to pull away,I don't want them to go in the
opposite direction.

(55:07):
And I think you said it earlierabout crucial conversations.
I think you said it a you said alittle bit ago, and I think, uh,
my co-leader and I, I think oneof the things that we're really,
really good at is the crucialconversation piece.
So I would say to a new leaderthat, you know, get really,
really good at having crucialconversations with your people.
Don't be afraid to talk aboutthe tough things, right?

(55:31):
If you're, if you're afraid totalk about the tough things, you
are gonna enable mediocrity,you're gonna enable failure, and
you don't want to do that as aleader.
You want to, you want tochallenge and encourage.
To have those really, reallydifficult, crucial
conversations.
So, um, I've had some reallydifficult conversations with my
staff, but I would say thatthey'll run through a wall

(55:51):
harder for me, just like I wouldfor them because we're so
transparent on that level withthem.
Like, there's a trust.
There's a trust.
So that's what I, that's what Iwould, yeah, that's what I would
say.
That's.

Jason (56:04):
That's good, man.
I appreciate that.
I've never heard of that book.
I think all these shows, I'venever had someone recommend it,
so thank you.
I just was looking at it, soI'll link to that as well.
Um, yeah, I could say a lotabout just those crucial
conversations and how whenthey're not addressed, man, the,
the, the damage and you willhave, as a leader, you will have

(56:24):
to deal with it and it's onlygonna get worse.
It's like, I.
It's like cancer.
I mean, it really is on a teamand I could give a lot of other
analogies, but it's gonna getworse and worse.
So address it early and it's alot easier to address early.
And you do build that trust thatyou talk about Dan, that people,
um, yeah, people appreciatethat.

Dan (56:44):
I had a, I had a mentor tell me, Jason, um, about two
years ago, he said to me, I was,I was in a different role and he
said, Dan, one of the greatestthings I can, two greatest
things I can tell you as aleader is, number one, encourage
your people.
And number two, don't eversurprise your people.
Don't ever surprise'em.
If they're surprised aboutsomething that you should have

(57:04):
told them, then shame on you.

Jason (57:06):
Shame on you.
That's

Dan (57:07):
Yeah.
Don't, don't surprise'em.
They should, you should betransparent with'em, uh, enough
where they always know what'scoming.
Um, so I think those two thingsthat my mentor told me are just
so powerful and, uh, encourageand don't surprise.

Jason (57:22):
Yeah.
No, that's good stuff.
Hey, um, I said that was thelast question, but I lied.
I got one more.
What do you, what do you hope toleave?
What's your, you know, what'sthe legacy you hope to leave Dan
with, uh, your workplace when, Imean, you're a young guy, you
know, you got a lot of yearsahead of you, but when you think
about that, like, or even ifsomeday the Lord calls you away
from Zurich, like what do youhope people remember about

(57:43):
working with Dan?

Dan (57:45):
My, um, my dad, uh, passed last August from a stroke.
Um, and my dad was my bestfriend.
And, uh, so I really got towatch my dad in his career.
I got to watch him as a leaderand I would hope that like my
dad's legacy of the way that heleft this earth, um, and went to
heaven.
I would hope that my legacy isthat I had love in my approach,

(58:08):
right?
I had love in my accountability,love in my communication, love
in my encouragement, love in mychallenge.
And I think I worked for amanager years ago that was very
degrading and everything I did,he degraded.
And every time that hechallenged someone, he degraded
them.
So I hope that I can have alegacy where people look at me
that I challenged you.

(58:29):
Um, but I did it in a loving anda godly way.
And I always, I, I say this allthe time, I even say this in
secular settings, but, uh, ifyou have God in your approach,
you can do anything.
You can say anything.
If you have love in yourapproach, you can talk about the
worst topic on Earth.
And if you have love and God inyour approach, it's not gonna

(58:50):
come across in a negative way,right?
Because you have that in yourapproach.
The number one word in the Bibleused the most times in the Bible
is love.
And I think as a leader and as alegacy, I hope that people would
look at me, uh, at Dan cappingand say, man, he could have some
really, really toughconversations, but he did it in
a loving way.
He, he would, he had enoughrespect for me.

(59:12):
Um, I wrote in my book that it'seasy to find someone to tell
you, uh, what you wanna hear.
It's really hard to find someonethat will, that will tell you
what you need to hear.
Those are two, those are twovery different things, right?
So I think that, uh, that'swhere, where I really want
people to remember me is that I,I'm willing to tell you not what
you wanna hear.

(59:32):
I'm gonna tell you what you needto hear, but I'm gonna do it in
a godly way.

Jason (59:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Praise the Lord for that.
That's good.
That's good.
Hey, what's, what's a best wayfor people to get, uh, get in
touch with you?
I gotta believe you may havesome folks that wanna reach out
to you and talk to you some moreabout whether it's your book or,
uh, just network with you.

Dan (59:49):
Yeah.
So, um, my, um, my email, Ithink you have my email and my
cell phone.
So both of those are the bestway to reach me, and I'm happy,
um, happy for people to reachout to me in those ways.
Um, outside of that, um, I'm notmassive into social media, um,
but I'm, you know, I, I'm, youcan contact me through those

(01:00:11):
ways

Jason (01:00:12):
Okay.
Yeah.
Alright, well that's cool.
We'll put a link to your, uh,your email in the show notes.
And I, you're on LinkedIn, Ithink you and I connected there,
so another way for, you know, alot of professionals use that
too, so.
Good.

Dan (01:00:23):
Yes.
Yep.
I'm on.
I am on LinkedIn and you canconnect with me there as well.

Jason (01:00:28):
good.
All right, brother.
Well, hey, thank you for takingthe time outta your day today
to, uh, meet with me and talk tothe audience.
And, uh, man, I just reallyappreciate.
Yeah, it's been an inspiringconversation.
Challenging always ischallenging to hear from another
leader.
Um, a reminder of thefundamentals.
We, we need to be practicing.
So thank you, Dan.

(01:00:48):
I appreciate it.

Dan (01:00:49):
Yeah, gladly.

Jason (01:00:51):
So, and to the audience, hey, thank you for, uh, tuning
in again this month and, uh,listening to another leader
who's striving to honor Christin their work.
Uh, if you could take a momentto rate the podcast, uh, that
would, uh, be much appreciated,that helps others to find it.
Uh, if you follow us on YouTube,uh, subscribe and like, and
follow us there as well, and,uh, share it with others that

(01:01:13):
you know, that it might be ahelpful, helpful, uh, tool to
them as well.
And so I'll see you again nextmonth when we talk to another
leader, striving to honor Christin their work.