September 1, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode, host Jason Woodard talks with Jeff Mau about his shift from law enforcement to founding Tenicor. Jeff discusses his career path, the challenges he faced, and how his faith influenced his journey. He offers leadership insights and the importance of blending personal values with professional goals.
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Episode Transcript
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Jason (00:00):
Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work Podcast.
I'm your host, Jason Woodard.
In this month's episode, JeffMao shares his compelling
transition from a career in lawenforcement to becoming a
successful entrepreneur.
Jeff discusses his professionalbackground, including his
decision to leave a stable jobat Expedia for law enforcement
(00:20):
and eventually founding his owncompany, Tencor, which focuses
on high performance concealmentproducts.
He talks about the significantchallenges, learning
experiences, and motivationsthat guided his journey.
Jeff also delves into his faithjourney, the importance of
sanctification and maintainingspiritual disciplines.
Additionally, he offers valuableinsights on leadership, managing
(00:41):
a growing business, and stayinghumble while aiming for
excellence.
This conversation is filled withpractical advice and reflections
on blending personal values withprofessional aspirations.
Jeff Mao, thank you for joiningme on the podcast, brother.
I look forward to getting toknow you and having the audience
get to know you as well.
(01:02):
So thank you.
Jeff (01:02):
Looking forward to this.
Jason (01:04):
Yeah.
So, let's talk a little bitabout your professional
background.
you've been law enforcement, nowyou're an entrepreneur, but tell
us a little bit about how theLord led you from high school,
early career on to where you'regoing now, like a resume review.
Jeff (01:17):
Yep.
I went to public high school,went to community college for a
couple years, and then theUniversity of Washington is
where I graduated from.
I was married while I was inschool.
so when I graduated I was like,I should be responsible and get
an actual real job pretty soon.
worked for a mortgage companyfor a little bit and then went
into the IT world and worked forexpedia.com.
(01:39):
and that was a great job, but Iguess I found that to be boring
and not interesting at all,sitting behind a desk and doing,
computer office type work.
and right after Vicki and I gotmarried, I had met somebody who
was the wife of a policeofficer.
And I was like, well, that'sinteresting.
I always used to like, you know,when I was a little kid playing
(02:00):
guns, thinking about themilitary, thinking about law
enforcement like most, youngguys.
and didn't really think aboutit.
Kind of grew outta that anddidn't really think about it as
a career really.
a lot of it probably had to doafter I became a Christian.
Like that, that world and thatkind of thing wasn't really,
Prevalent in the circles that Iwas running in.
but it was kind of, I was like,oh, that'd be an interesting
job.
(02:20):
so I kind of thought about itfor a bit, but didn't do
anything with it.
and just kind of over timeworking in the office, got
frustrated with not feeling likeI'm doing a lot.
I went to this conference, theNorthwest Conference on
Reformation and Revival and theguy there was talking about
calling and it really struck melike I should do the thing that
(02:40):
I want to do, that I believe in,that I think would be a good fit
Other people like my parents orlike my friends or other people
think is a good job.
'cause at the time, in like theearly two thousands
working@expedia.com, right afterit spins off from Microsoft is a
pretty good job.
and so I just felt convictedthat I wanted to do that.
And so I was like, let's seewhat happens.
(03:01):
So I started applying, and aftera period of time, I finally got
a job, and then went to thepolice academy, kind of.
In conjunction with that.
Before that I, you know, I said,I wanna be a cop.
Well, I should probably learnhow to shoot a gun and learn how
to fight.
so I started taking classes ata, company called Insights
Training Center, which, earlytwo thousands before like G Watt
(03:22):
and all the gun stuff and allthe training stuff that was
really popular.
Now they were one of the,original, national training
companies that went around andtrained people How to shoot
handguns, how to shoot rifles,how to do, combatives and kind
of had an integrated system.
So I started taking classes withthem.
around the time I went to theacademy, I started, teaching for
them as well.
(03:43):
And so I did that.
and that kind of dovetails intostuff that I'm doing later on.
That's why I bring that up.
and so I went to the academy.
I really enjoyed training.
I did that training with thatprivate company.
And I just really enjoyedtraining and being in that
environment.
the fact that I learned abouttraining and about how to do
training in the private sectorbefore I went into being a
police officer.
(04:03):
I think it was very foundationalfor me because I was.
Interacting with a company thatwas doing this as a for-profit
business, right?
So like in the governmentservice, you have to go to
training.
So it doesn't matter whether thetraining's any good, and it
doesn't matter whether you careif the training's any good, but
as a private company, likepeople are paying 200, 300,$400
a day to come take a class andit better be pretty good or
(04:25):
people are not gonna come back,right?
And so that was veryfoundational for me, for how I
thought about training, how Ithought about interacting with
folks, how I thought aboutproviding a service, to them.
And so went into the lawenforcement, as a police
officer, went to the academy,learned a lot.
I mean, like, I would argue thatat least in the Pacific
Northwest, like the period oftime, like your field training
(04:49):
time might be the most intense,Training for any profession out
there in a 12 to 16 week period.
Like the amount of informationand the amount of change that is
required of you as a person andhow you interact with the world
is like super intense.
and not everybody takes it thatseriously.
but just like is a prettysignificant shift from living in
(05:12):
a world, doing a certain thingand looking at the world a
totally different way andinteracting with the world in a
totally different way.
It's, I think it really, it wasreally challenging for me and
really rewarding, you know,obviously like a doctor or a
physician is learning more overthe course of their entire
training period, but that's a,you know, an eight or 12 year
training period and what you'redoing in a concentrated 12 to 16
(05:35):
week period I think is reallyintense.
and I really enjoyed it.
So being a police officer in thebeginning, super fun.
Jason (05:43):
and that's post academy, how long was the academy?
Jeff (05:46):
our academy was like 19 weeks,
Jason (05:48):
Okay.
So that's significant.
Jeff (05:50):
yeah.
Jason (05:51):
the academy you went into, was that like, for city
police?
County police?
What was that?
Jeff (05:55):
so it's the state of Washington and they do,
basically the state runs all ofcity and county law enforcement.
So the sheriff's office, thestate has their own academy for
the state patrol.
Jason (06:06):
Okay.
Jeff (06:07):
different states handle all of that differently.
Jason (06:09):
so then you went in, how long were you in law
enforcement?
Jeff (06:12):
I was in law enforcement for about 14 years.
so I, yeah, so I really enjoyedlike the training piece of it.
and so I ended up being like afield training officer.
I was a firearms instructor, adefensive tactics instructor.
I was on the SWAT team.
I was an instructor for variousthings on the SWAT team.
I always had patrol as like myprimary thing, and then use all
of that other training stuff aslike collateral assignments.
(06:34):
and, you know, overall from aleadership standpoint, again,
like I really enjoyed thetraining and I would say I
learned a lot about leadershipand about helping people and
about presenting information ina clear and concise way to make
people better.
Really from the private companythat I worked for Insights and
that gen translated into lawenforcement and I have a
different standard and differentexpectation for how to do
(06:57):
training and how to interactwith folks, because I was doing
stuff in the private sector aswell as in my government job.
Jason (07:04):
Did you, you continued in the private sector as
Jeff (07:06):
so I worked, I worked with Insights for probably from about
2003, 2004, probably until about2012 ish, 2010, 2012 ish.
so about seven and eight, nineyears or so that I was kind of
doing both.
So I would, work overtime, getcomp time, take a long weekend
so I could go teach classes onthe side and try to do that a
(07:28):
couple times a month.
Jason (07:29):
yeah.
So it's really a passion thenfor you training other people on
honing their skills and learningspecial, special, skills and
techniques within lawenforcement.
Okay.
Jeff (07:40):
Yep.
and ultimately the thing thatmade me leave law enforcement is
I realized like I was always theambitious person that wanted to
make things better and changethings.
and I always ended up inconflict with people because of
that.
most people who are policeofficers are people who like
stability and consistency.
And so somebody who comes in islike, we should change this and
(08:01):
make this better, is like theantithesis of stability and
consistency.
well there were always peoplewho really appreciated me.
Some coworkers and then someleadership.
But there were a lot of peoplewho, I really bothered them
because I was always trying tomake things different and people
didn't like that.
Jason (08:17):
drive change?
Jeff (08:18):
And ultimately I realized the government exists to
minimize liability, right?
there is a base social contractwe've written with the
government.
We expect them to providecertain services, and if they
don't provide those, they get introuble.
And so they just want to providethose, and that's it.
as long as they can meetbasically the minimum standard
necessary, then they're happy.
(08:39):
They've met that minimumobligation.
And so there's no incentive forthe government to change and
become better.
They just want to exist.
And my personality has alwaysbeen one to want to change and
be better, not just be content.
with who I am, I want to try tomake that better.
the thing that I've realized inthe last several years is like,
(08:59):
that's just sanctification,right?
People want to arrive.
and they want to get to acertain spot.
And the reality is the only timeyou are gonna arrive is in
glory.
'cause that's glorification.
And the thing that we get hereon earth is sanctification.
that is the process of doingsomething and learning from it
and being better.
whether that is in your personallife or whether that is at work,
(09:21):
whether that is in relationshipswith people, whatever that is,
there is this process ofsanctification.
And you can fight against thatprocess, which is what we're
usually inclined to do.
Or you can embrace that processand do something with all of
that.
Right?
And I think most people don'twant to embrace their
sanctification and they want tostay where they're at.
And I've always wanted to changeand it always created conflict
(09:45):
with people.
Jason (09:46):
Yeah.
I've spent my entire career inoperations, but there was a time
when I, began to get exposed toand get training on and fall in
love with continuousimprovement.
Jeff (09:55):
Mm-hmm.
Jason (09:56):
And I remember having that same epiphany as a
believer.
I was like, this is likesanctification, you know,
spiritual sanctification, but inthe business world or the
workplace to just have thisdesire to find ways to do things
better, right?
To drive for, strive forexcellence.
And it is a characteristic of,you know, he doesn't need to
(10:17):
improve, but for us to improveand find ways to do things
better towards perfection,chasing perfection.
No one will never get there.
Jeff (10:24):
for sure.
Jason (10:24):
So you,
Jeff (10:25):
the book, the Toyota Way, I think is a fantastic book.
It really struck me in manydifferent ways.
The thing that struck me waslike, this culture that is not
Christian or not Western,understands the world that God
made and how he ordered it andhow to implement it in a
company, corporate manufacturingenvironment.
it's true, not because somebodymade it up, but it's true
(10:47):
because it's consistent with howGod made the world.
one of the things that struck mein that book was one of the last
chapters they talk about Hanse.
Hanse is a Japanese word for anidea of, understanding that you
did something wrong and thenputting a action plan or
practice into place to fix thatthing, which sounds pretty
familiar.
It sounds like confession of sinand like repentance, right?
(11:11):
Which is like, obviously we'retalking about that in a
spiritual sense, but thatprinciple can be applied to all
aspects of life.
and.
I mean, I think from a businessstand standpoint or from an
operational standpoint, like Godhas a lot of things to say about
all of it, and it's mostly basedon principles.
If you understand the principlesand you're willing to apply them
(11:31):
to your work, and like we asWesterners, like we've taken,
like Toyota Manufacturingmethods and kind of turn them on
their heads and done weirdthings with them, with like Lean
six Sigma and like, we don't,like, we don't understand the,
like the, the undergirdingprinciples
Jason (11:49):
Yeah.
Jeff (11:50):
we we're obsessed with outcomes and not with processes.
and it all gets lost, right?
and I think that theirnon-Western.
Perspective is actually a moreChristian way to view the world
and is like embracing, whetherintentionally or not embracing
like the truths about how Godmade and ordered the world and
(12:10):
how people produce things andhow people get stuff done, and
how people interrelate to eachother and a business or,
operations culture.
Jason (12:18):
I was listening to a podcast today on, respect for
people and just how we buildculture.
this person talked about how theToyota production system, has
been embraced in the west, butoften we forget about the second
pillar of respect for people,and that as we look for
improvements, we not onlyinvolve them, but we're
(12:39):
positively impacting them in theworkplace when we are making,
improvements to the work thatthey're doing Taking waste out
and frustration and making theworkplace better.
And it made me think of what,Jeff, exactly what you're
talking about.
It's like we took the parts thatessentially will strive for
less, cost more profitabilityand just hyper-focus on that and
(13:00):
ignore the, oftentimes, notalways, but ignore the respect
for people part, which is alsooutright of a biblical
Jeff (13:08):
Mm-hmm.
Jason (13:08):
seeing that, people are made in God's image.
So, that's really good.
when, you transitioned, at somepoint, right?
You decided to make the leap.
I'd like to talk a little bitabout that.
I mean, that's a really toughtransition for anybody to go
from, I have a full-time job, Ihave benefits, I have a
paycheck.
By that time you haveresponsibilities of a spouse,
(13:29):
right?
Bills, maybe kids, I don't know.
But you made that leap.
What was that like?
Making that's a big risk that Ireally respect people that have
taken that risk.
So talk a little bit about thattransition.
Jeff (13:41):
kind of the story of my career, up until tenor was
always taking pay cuts, takinglike 30 to 50% pay cuts.
So I, I went from Expedia to,with stock options and
everything to law enforcement.
I took a huge pay cut.
I was at a particular agency.
I realized that I was doing, Iworked for three different law
(14:02):
enforcement agencies.
the middle one, I kind of had mydream job where like I had
almost an unlimited budget fortraining.
Like we were on a pretty busySWAT team, could kind of do
everything I wanted.
but I, that was when I reallyrealized like, ultimately
they're never gonna change andI'm a misfit here.
and so I decided, I gave upbeing a firearms instructor,
(14:22):
gave up being a DT instructor onthe SWAT team, like all of those
things.
And that for me, I had alwaysthought when I'm done with law
enforcement, I would go backinto teaching in the private
sector and do that full time.
but the thing that struck meabout that also is that when I
looked around into thatcommunity, there was no one that
I was like, that was a husbandand a father that I really
(14:43):
respected.
Like, I respected who they wereand what they did
professionally, but I wasn'tlike, man, that guy, I wanna
really be like him as a father.
I wanna be like him as ahusband.
because most of those guys are,if they're successful, they're
traveling 200, 250 days a year.
and obviously any job where youtravel that much is pretty hard
to be meaningfully engaged withyour family.
and so there's that side and Irealized I didn't know what I
(15:04):
wanted to do.
I had, so tenor is a, we makeconcealment products, so
holsters mag pouches and beltsis what we focus on.
and I had kind of dabbled withmaking stuff, just for myself
and for friends as early as like2005, 2006, 2007.
people liked it and they triedto buy it from me, and I sold a
few things just here and thereto people.
(15:25):
But I realized it wasn't a realbusiness.
Like there's no way, like Iwould make something and I might
spend two hours on it.
Sometimes I'd throw it in thetrash'cause it was garbage, and
other times it'd be a greatholster and I'd sell it to
someone for like a hundred bucksor something like that.
I'm like, that's obviously not ascalable business.
Right.
but, but it was always kind ofinteresting to me, and I guess
probably around 2014 15 when Irealized law enforcement isn't
(15:51):
for me, kind of the most maturething I had, or the most
interesting thing to me was thiswhole holster thing.
at that point, making holsterswas kind of in vogue and there
were a bunch of people whobasically had their own garage
holster business and there wasactually a whole business to
support garage holster people.
but from my perspective, all ofthose people were all making.
Basically the same thing.
(16:11):
And it wasn't really interestingto me.
I have a very high standard forwhat performance looks like.
and what I saw was there was noone making concealment products
that were, that concealed aswell as I thought they should
and were not as robust as Ithought they should.
So when there was pressureapplied to the product, is the
product gonna survive?
And most, and most people frommy perspective, didn't have the
(16:33):
context for understanding howthe equipment should be used and
what should be done with it.
So there wasn't anything that I,that met my standard.
And so from my perspective,there wasn't anything that was
like at the top of the pyramidof like, what is the best
concealment products in theworld?
And there basically was a bunchof upper middle class, middle
class and lower class products,but nothing at the very top.
(16:53):
and so like I saw that as anopportunity and I was like, if
you.
I mean, a couple things stuckwith me.
One would be like, I, I thought,you know, Walmart could never
become Nordstrom's, butNordstrom's could become
Walmart, right?
So if I go for the top, I couldalways do something lower, but
if I go just at the baseline, Icould, you can never push your
(17:14):
brand up.
and then the other thing, afriend of mine who was an
instructor stuck with me.
He was like, you know, if youown a service business, which is
training would be a servicebusiness, you're kind of stuck,
basically working in thatservice business forever.
Because if you hire otherpeople, the level of service
will always be a notch or twobelow, right?
(17:35):
And you can never truly be freefrom that service business if
you have high standards.
He was like, if you have aproduct business, at some point
the product has been designed,it's been made, it's being
produced, you're sleeping.
You're making money, you're onvacation and you're making
money.
And that really stuck with me.
I was like, okay, can I takethis training thing that I do?
(17:55):
Could I just use that as like amarketing piece and then let's
make a product.
and so probably around 2015 iswhen I got really serious about
trying to figure out what doesit look like to, in a real
production environment, actuallymake a holster and not just be
one of these garage holstermakers.
and so I looked at things likeinjection molding pretty
(18:16):
serious.
I looked, I looked at a bunch ofdifferent things.
Most people kinda laughed at me'cause they were like, there's
no way this guy's gonna spendthe money to do these things.
And ultimately I ended up kindof following a similar process.
I was a garage holster makerbecause bot tenor started in our
house.
but ultimately, well, I did bothjobs at the same time.
so I started working diligentlyon tenor, probably around 2000.
(18:39):
I, I've kind of flirted with itin 2015, but 2016 I started
working really hard on it, and Ididn't leave law enforcement
until the end of 2018, so almosta two year period where I did
basically both of them fulltime.
And yeah, it was scary to makethat transition, right?
And everybody thought I wascrazy that I would be able to do
(18:59):
that, or that I would take thatrisk.
but from my perspective, I waslike, this is interesting.
And when I did the math and Ipenciled it out, I knew there
was no comparison between my lawenforcement job and the pension
and what this could end upmeaning financially for me and
my family, right?
and so if I thought it was gonnawork and we were really gonna
(19:20):
make the highest performingproducts in their category, it
was gonna be worth the risk.
I talked to all these differentpeople.
I had ideas about product designin the beginning.
I hired someone to do CAD for meeventually.
I taught myself cad, and so lawenforcement fundamentally
changed really at that time withFerguson and all the racial of
stuff at that point.
(19:40):
And basically, post Ferguson,most of law enforcement stopped
being proactive and everyone wasall react.
It was like, wait till a callcomes, go answer the call
between calls.
You can do whatever you want.
And so I was like, okay, welleveryone else is sitting in the
fire station drinking coffee.
I'm gonna go sit in my carsomewhere and park somewhere,
open up YouTube and buy Fusion360.
(20:01):
And it was free for, for peoplestarting businesses.
And I'm gonna go through all thetutorials and teach myself cad.
And so I had a guy who was doingCAD for me.
I was learning CAD at the sametime.
Eventually I got to the pointwhere I could do it faster than
I could explain what I wantedthe guy to do.
And so I learned how to do CADand I learned how to do product
design first I sent stuff off toProtolabs for, they would
(20:24):
machine the tooling and stufffor me and they'd send it back.
That was really expensive and Iwas like, I need to figure out
CNC machining.
So I bought myself little hobbyCNC machines and started cutting
tooling and that was a learningprocess.
And I should have bought, youknow, a Haas VF two a long time
ago, but instead I bought fiveother little small machines
working my way up to that.
(20:44):
Right.
But that was a whole process ofthings, of trying to play with
that stuff, teach myself thatstuff and figure it out.
And then ultimately, so tenor,we do everything in house.
So from idea to design, CADtooling, prototyping,
production, tooling, productionfulfillment, like everything is
in house.
And it all, for me, I mean, itall was stuff that like I made
(21:06):
up.
For the most part.
It's like me and YouTubefiguring out how to make a
manufacturing business.
and it, it is a lot and it'ssuper fun.
and it was lots of, so like Iwouldn't wish my journey on
anybody and most people probablywouldn't want it.
'cause I, like most people willsay, oh, I worked 70 hours last
week, or I worked 80 hours lastweek.
(21:28):
and a lot of people probablydid, but a lot of people when
they say that are exaggerating,But for me, I worked for an
agency where, I was working foran agency that had 12 hour
shifts and it was an hour to twohours commute.
Right.
And I lateraled to an agencythat had eight hour shifts and I
had a take home car and I workedreal, like within 10 minutes of
(21:49):
my house.
So I basically almost go intoservice and outta service at my
house, basically adding severalhours a day of transition time.
and so my, what my day wouldlook like is I'd start shift at
four o'clock.
I'd work until like two o'clock.
I'd get off, I'd go to sleep,I'd wake up at about eight or
(22:09):
nine, and I'd work on 10 o'clockuntil about three o'clock in the
afternoon.
when I had to get ready to go towork and eat some food and then
go to work.
And that was what my daysconstantly looked like.
And I would take off.
Sunday from about, you know,maybe Saturday evening until
Sunday mid-afternoon was like mytime off during the week.
(22:30):
And that was my time block oftime off.
And at the time, wehomeschooled, our kids were
little.
And so I would have touchpointswhere I could take 15 or 20
minutes and go eat dinner, or Icould take 15 or 20 minutes and
go hang out and do this thing.
And I would do that a few timesduring the day.
I have a take home car.
I'm working, we're starting thebusiness outta the house.
And my wife is amazing and superflexible, and we're
(22:52):
homeschooling the kids, right?
And so all of that, like thewhole world worked around me
being able to maintain.
And that doesn't mean it wasn'thard to do all that.
There were times when there'stons of pressure and it's like,
should we really be doing this?
but I'm working 14, 15, 16 hoursa day consistently for a couple
years.
and it was a, like, I don't lookback.
(23:15):
I mean, it was kind of fun, butit was also terrible.
Jason (23:18):
Yeah.
Jeff (23:18):
And that's why most people I think don't start businesses.
Jason (23:21):
Yep.
It's hard.
Jeff (23:22):
and ultimately, like the 10 Core is a bootstrap business.
I didn't go and get a loan fromanybody.
I didn't go and get investmentfrom anybody.
Like I own it and like I.
We don't have any business debtand it just is what it is,
right?
We bootstrapped it from thebeginning when it, when it came
time to make stuff and I had togo from buying tens of things to
(23:43):
hundreds of things or thousandsof things like that.
Just like I didn't get to makeany money.
It was just more investment.
Right?
And it's like if you do that onthe front end, then it slowly
scales, right?
another thing about 10 the most,so most of the, most custom or
most holster companies start outas a small business and they
(24:04):
start out as a garage holstercompany and they start out as a,
made to order type thing.
And then they basically neverget out of that mode.
they take your money.
Before the product exists, theygo make the product, then they
ship it.
And that works out fine in thebeginning when you don't have a
lot of business.
But once you've got a lot ofbusiness, now you have a two
week lead time, then you have afour week lead time, then you
(24:26):
have a 16 week lead time, you'retalking about giving money for
this thing and waiting 16.
Like that's just weird in thisday and age.
Right?
I'm, we're all used to Amazon.
I give you the money and itshows up this afternoon.
and so my thought was like, Idon't wanna be a custom holster
company.
We're gonna be a productionholster company and we're not
gonna make any money until,until we can actually be a
(24:49):
production holster company andwe have enough stuff in stock.
and so that's where like we've,we've always inventoried our
stuff and we've only sold whatwe have already made.
And that has been somethingwe've done from the beginning,
which is different I think fromin general, a lot of small
businesses and for sure in ourlittle space.
and that was a thing that's hardto do.
and you have to, I mean, it'slike we don't buy things on
(25:10):
terms.
Which is also weird.
Like I think that's a weirdhamster wheel that people try to
spin and it's like, well, if Ileverage this and I buy things
on terms, then you know, they'llpay me and I'll pay them and
then I can siphon money off thewheel, the hamster wheel, right?
And I'm like, no, if I buysomething, I'm gonna buy
something I have cash for.
And then, and unfortunately noone else feels that way.
(25:32):
So everyone wants to buy from uson terms.
but somehow I have to float thething.
But that is a thing that we'velearned.
Like we just have to put moremoney in our materials account
so we can float everyone else'sterms.
But that puts us in a spacewhere we're relatively cash
rich.
and so when we have profit, it'sactual real profit.
It's not like fake, weird profithoping to keep that wheel
(25:55):
spinning.
Right.
And so that was a thing from thebeginning that I was like, we
need to be a production shop andwe need to make that thing go.
And which made like, I mean Itook a huge pay cut going from
law enforcement to this.
And I was, you know, I took a50% pay cut, and it was a huge
risk and people thought I wascrazy.
and I did it way, that's not howI thought I would do it.
(26:16):
I was like, oh, I'll quit lawenforcement once I can pay
myself the same, I would makefrom law enforcement plus the
benefits I'm losing.
But that never happened.
Jason (26:24):
How many people, do you have on your team now?
Jeff (26:27):
we have about 45 people.
Jason (26:28):
That's huge.
That's big man for starting offwith just running it outta your
garage.
Jeff (26:32):
Yeah.
We're not in our garage.
So we're in about a 8,000 squarefoot building right now.
We just bought a new buildingthat's about 20,000 square feet.
we're waiting on permits fromthe city to start a renovation.
Jason (26:42):
And you do, so you guys are doing design, manufacturing,
everything.
Who's your, who do you mainlysell to?
commercial users?
Individuals,
Jeff (26:51):
our endeavor is to be the highest performing product in
its category.
we're trying to occupy the top,of the pyramid.
probably about 80% of our salesare on our website direct to
consumer.
and then about 20% of our salesare to government agencies.
Mostly that is federal lawenforcement, military special
operations, and the intelligencecommunity.
(27:13):
I'm not the one who gets todecide whether we're the top of
the pyramid.
Ultimately, it's the end user.
I think a lot of the people who,like our product would say we
are the best, which is whatwe're trying to do.
ultimately that is just a thingthat needs to play out over
time.
and so we have tons of growth.
We have tons of product ideasand products we're working on
that would push us into otherspaces within the holster
(27:34):
accessory world.
and a lot of that is, you know,it's really been interesting.
A lot of it is like, anotherthing that I realized early is
if you grow too big too quickly,that can be the thing that puts
you outta business.
you know, we have grown at.
30%, 150%, 50% year over yearkind of consistently.
It's always been big numberslike that for us.
(27:56):
last year we grew it, we werelike, revenue wise, we was like
46% year over year.
This year we're on pace for asimilar thing.
And so the growth is big andaggressive, which is great.
but there's actually products,ideas that we have that could
make the thing go even bigger.
but I've always felt likeorganizationally we're not
mature enough for that.
and so for us, it has been kindof like trying to pace out,
(28:20):
trying to balance enough thatpushes us and that makes it
really hard without too much,that just completely crushes us.
Jason (28:27):
Well, and I, you know, the other thing I think people
don't realize when you talkabout those levels of growth, if
they've not been inmanufacturing, Is, that's a
tremendous challenge'cause it'snot just driving revenue and
someone else makes it for you.
You're growing capital peopletraining that I have seen more
than once be the achilles heelof a manufacturing operation.
(28:51):
It just grew too fast.
You couldn't sustain it.
And then all the, all the thingsyou're trying to do to be
stable, from safety to quality,all it goes backwards because
you're just, it's growing
Jeff (29:03):
Yep.
For sure.
Yeah.
Totally different if you areoutsourcing your production to
someone else.
but our experience withoutsourcing is nobody.
We're trying to be the best,
Jason (29:12):
yep.
Jeff (29:12):
are not trying to be the best.
They're just trying to be good,which is, and there's nothing
wrong with that.
We've tried to outsource.
And it's just been a realchallenge to find people who
will make stuff to our standardthat is consistent with what we
want.
And so basically we've decidedwe have to do it all in-house.
It's like, you know, if we gotan order for too much too soon,
(29:34):
like it would crush us and wewouldn't like, it would, you
know, do you say, oh, thanks forthe order, it'll take two years
to deliver that?
Or do you say, we're just notgonna sell on the website
anymore and we're just gonnasell?
I mean, like that doesn't work,right?
we want, hopefully enough thatmakes us really uncomfortable,
Jason (29:53):
yeah,
Jeff (29:53):
to continue to grow.
Right.
And that ties back to thatsanctification, right?
Jason (29:57):
Yeah.
Hey, a little pivot on theconversation.
Jeff, tell us about your faithjourney.
How and when did you come toknow the Lord?
What'd that look like?
Jeff (30:05):
Yeah.
So I grew up in a home thatwasn't a Christian home.
I went to.
Public school.
a friend of mine wanted to go onthis backpacking trip when I was
a freshman in high school.
And I was like, oh, that soundscool.
He invited me to go with him.
I went with him.
And that was a, backpacking tripto a place called Beyond Malibu,
which is in Canada, which islike a young life camp.
(30:27):
and so I went to that and then Istarted going to Young Life in
high school and kind of went to,I kept going because I kind of
liked the people, but I, kepttelling them why they're stupid
and why Christianity is dumb andwhy it's just a crutch and why
you don't really need it.
And it's just because.
You know, I mean, I basicallybattled with them throughout and
then all these people probablypraying for me.
(30:48):
and I became a Christian mysenior year in high school.
it was like the guy who was ayoung life leader and a really
good friend of mine who was mypastor, when we lived over in
the Seattle area.
he and I went to high schooltogether and he later on became
a pastor.
both of those people were reallyinstrumental in my life in terms
of being examples of what, beinga faithful Christian looked
like.
not being a hypocrite andstruggling through your sin and
(31:09):
repenting of your sin andacknowledging it and not
pretending that you're perfectand just being a real person.
Right.
and so I became a Christian whenI was a senior in high school.
then I actually, for my firstyear in college, I was a young
life leader.
and then kind of realized thatwasn't really the right fit for
me.
When I first became a Christian,there was a small reform church
that I went to, and then therewas a charismatic church that I
(31:31):
went to.
And I liked both of thosebecause like, these people are
serious, right?
In their own different ways, butthey're serious about their
faith.
and ultimately I ended up on themore kind of intellectual reform
side of things.
And so I went to, to a, youknow, reformed evangelical
church.
and then my wife, we led younglife together and she started
(31:51):
coming to that church as well.
and then eventually we, youknow, ended up getting married,
and had kids and yeah, I've beengonna church ba basically went
to that same church for, youknow, 20 some years.
and then we moved over to Idahoabout four years ago, and are
now over here.
So that's, yeah.
Jason (32:11):
How'd you guys meet?
Jeff (32:12):
she was a young life leader.
In young life.
She led young life and I ledyoung life kinda with her on the
same team.
And so that's how we got to knoweach other.
Jason (32:19):
What are your spiritual disciplines now, Jeff?
How do you keep close to theLord?
How do you keep growing andsanctification.
Jeff (32:25):
Yeah.
I mean, everyone knows thethings that they're supposed to
do, but doing those things arehard, right?
Like, you're supposed to readthe Bible every day.
You're supposed to pray everyday.
You're supposed to go to churchevery week.
You're supposed to keep shortaccounts with people.
and then all of that is achallenge.
And so like, I would say, youknow, I have consistently gone
to church every week, prettymuch ever since I became a
(32:45):
Christian.
That was a thing that, like evenon vacation it's something that
I think is important that we tryto do.
so that would be a thing.
as far as.
Reading the Bible.
I think most people, if they'rebeing honest, struggle with
that.
It's like brushing your teeth.
do you actually brush your teethor floss your teeth every day?
Probably flossing more thanbrushing, right?
and reality is that is afundamental shift.
if you didn't grow up in a homewhere that's what you did, for
(33:09):
somebody who grew up in aChristian home and they watch
their parents read their Bibleevery day and pray every day,
they don't know anythingdifferent and blessings to them,
But if you grow up in a homewhere everyone sits around and
watches TV and doesn't do any ofthose things, that's a hard
thing to overcome.
and so I would say it, I like,just frankly, you know, there
were spurts of times where Iread my Bible consistently over
(33:32):
the last 25.
For, I guess 30 years nowalmost.
but it probably is in the lastfive or six years that it's like
pretty much every day I do that.
Right.
And that has, that has just beena maturing, personal journey of
understanding, discipline andunderstanding how to make habit
changes and being consistentabout those habit changes in
(33:52):
your life.
and I would say prayer is athing that I still probably
struggle with the most, right?
That I, being consistent anddeliberate about getting on my
knees every single day andpraying and giving, being
grateful for specific things andthen asking for specific things
is probably the area that I'm,that I, I've not been consistent
with over the last 30 someyears.
(34:13):
Right.
and is a thing that really inthe last probably several
months, I've been moreconsistent with.
And is a kind of like, I feellike I have routine and
structure around reading myBible in the morning every
single day.
and I'm trying to put routineand structure and consistency
around the prayer side ofthings.
but I think, and then as far asinteracting with people, you
(34:33):
know, I talked about keepingshort accounts, right?
And so like, that's like you goto church and you worship, you
read your Bible and you pray.
But the outworking of that faithcomes out in a certain way.
And I think ultimately thatcomes, like we talked about
sanctification.
It's like keeping short accountswith people, right?
everybody has sin in their life.
And if you let the sin go, thejunkyard grows.
(34:55):
But if you keep short accountswith your wife, with your kids,
with your friends, then it lookslike this beautiful manicured
park, I'm really grateful that,God brought us to a particular
church, where that was theexpectation, like that was
preached about from the pulpit,and that was given an example
from the leadership in thechurch of like, what does it
(35:15):
look like to keep short accountswith your wife, with your
children?
and so like being willing toconfess your sin, and
acknowledge it.
I think one of the most powerfulthings you can do as a parent is
confess your sin to yourchildren,
Jason (35:27):
Yeah.
Jeff (35:28):
there's just like, I think that it's sad, but probably,
certainly many and maybe evenmost adult Christians.
Don't confess their sin to theirkids.
And ultimately that's justpride.
I think that is one of the mostpowerful things you can do.
I mean, one, it's just like,that's what you have to do.
'cause if you sinned againstyour kids, you're required to do
that.
(35:48):
But you're like then setting theexample of like actual humility
and actual working out of yourfaith in your life that you're
not so much better than yourchildren or than your co or even
like here at work, right?
Like I have, I have publiclyconfessed sin in the office,
right?
I mean, I had a meeting whereit's like, gather all the people
around who I was interactingwith in this one way sitting
(36:10):
against them.
and I'm sitting there bawling,right?
Because God like, totally like.
Crunched me down to a littleball and it's like, like, you
stuck and figure this out.
I'm like, okay, yeah, I reallydo suck and I have to repent of
this.
And then my repentance has to beas public as my sin was.
Well, I guess that's everybody.
And so let's have a meeting,gather everybody up and like
(36:33):
confess my sin to everybody.
And, but that's like, that'ssanctification, right?
Like that is the, the workingout of those things.
as a father, as a husband, as abusiness leader, you have to be
the example of those things tothose people and you don't
really have an option.
And it's super weird and reallyuncomfortable.
Jason (36:52):
Yeah, it is.
No, that's good, man.
I appreciate your transparency,Jeff, on all that.
I mean, those are all spiritualdisciplines and I think that, as
you said, there's thefundamentals that we all know as
believers that we need to strivefor being in the word, being in
prayer, being in community withour church and we're all in
different areas of that, andeven different seasons, as you
said.
(37:12):
but what you talked about withkeeping short accounts, that's
good because, you know, I don'tthink I've had people on that
talk about that and theimportance of that, that's super
important both at work and athome and being able to confess
to your kids.
I can remember, and I certainlywasn't great at that, but I can
remember when my oldest became ateenager and you know, just
telling him as I was correctinghim in some areas, but then also
(37:35):
really trying to also say, Hey,look, I like.
I get it because I was therewhen I was your age.
I mean, I still struggle withsin as your dad and, you know,
realizing me, then realizing howimportant that was to not just
be the disciplinarian and, youknow, trying to hold them
accountable without everconfessing or being open about
(37:56):
your own struggles, because theyknow, your kids know, they know,
they know you better thananybody else.
They see how you handle things.
They know.
Yeah, That's right.
So, no, that's really good, man.
I appreciate
Jeff (38:05):
Yeah.
and I think it plays out in theworkplace, like keeping short
accounts is just like reviewsand stuff
Jason (38:11):
Yeah.
Jeff (38:12):
So like if someone has an issue, are you willing to talk
to them about the issue?
And it may not be a sin issue,but it's just the principle of
keeping short accounts.
Like, hey, here's thisperformance issue, or here's
this performance thing that youdid well, and make sure there's
communication about that.
And so when it comes time todealing with those problems, if
it escalates to a certain point,if you've kept short accounts,
(38:32):
it's pretty clear.
It's not a surprise.
Right?
but it's really hard.
And it's just like dealing withyour sin is really hard.
Dealing with people andperformance issues is also
really
Jason (38:42):
Yeah.
I think that is so critical,what you just said.
I'm a huge believer and I've,developed a pretty decent habit
of, doing one-to-ones and beingreal open with my team and
transparent.
it took a lot of years of workand discipline and other mentors
showing me the importance, buteven recently seeing some of
the, problems that come whenthat doesn't happen.
(39:03):
And this thing I've thoughtabout lately is that, you know,
clarity is kindness as abeliever, I was just having this
conversation with my boss.
he's, not a believer, but wetalk pretty openly with each
other about faith, and he's veryrespectful of where I am we were
talking about having difficultconversations with people and I
said, even for me, it's part ofmy faith and it drives me to
(39:25):
have those conversations thatyou don't have'em in anger.
you have them out of love andtruthfulness to the people on
your team.
to me it's much better to dothat even though it's hard than
to ever get to a point where youhave to ultimately let somebody
(39:45):
go.
And it was a surprise to them.
I think that is just really,that's terrible to do that.
And, so keeping those shortaccounts, being transparent,
being open clear to them, youknow, and being open for
feedback from them to say.
Look, this is where I see yourperformance, but you tell me
what do you need?
Is there something that I can dodifferently to help you?
(40:06):
You know, early on in thoseconversations, at some point, at
some point you've done what youcan, for that person and had
those multiple conversations,escalating conversations that
there's not a surprise.
So no, I think that's, that'ssuper important as leaders to do
that.
I wanted to ask you, go to your,when you guys moved, was what,
(40:27):
was it difficult, challenging atall to find a new church?
What was that like for you
Jeff (40:32):
no.
I mean, we moved to a placewhere we had a bunch of friends
and we basically knew where wewere gonna go, go to church.
Jason (40:38):
Nice.
Jeff (40:38):
from a church to another, like sister church in the same
denomination.
and so that wasn't, it was aknown thing moving to the
community we're in now.
Jason (40:47):
that's good because I, we've only really made one big
move in our adult lives.
That's one of the toughest partsfor us.
we were really super pluggedinto a church.
Our kids had grown up in thatchurch, we homeschooled.
So it was our entire social lifewas that church for like a
decade and then we moved andthat was tough for the kids
Jeff (41:05):
Yeah.
No, and our kids, everybody,like we moved and our oldest,
you know, she was a senior,she's going into her senior year
in high school, and she was theone who was like the biggest
advocate for moving.
and she's like, had a greattime.
So the kids, a couple of thekids were like, eh, I'm not sure
about it.
But everybody loves it now,
Jason (41:21):
I'm glad.
Good.
That can be tough.
Hey, I wanna talk a little bitabout leadership.
Jeff, you have, you know, you'veworked in law enforcement and
now you work as an entrepreneur,a business owner.
I'm really interested in, youknow, what have you, over the
years, what have you developedas kind of your core leadership
kind of principles, the pillarsthat you always go back to as a
leader?
Jeff (41:41):
Yeah.
I think, as Christians we canget into things like talking
about servant leadership andstuff like that, which I think
kinda, it can become like clicheand maybe not really.
Yeah.
I guess doesn't, like at onepoint kind of.
Resonated with me, but probablydoesn't really resonate with me
now where I'm at today.
and what I do is probably alittle bit different than most
(42:03):
people.
my perspective on leadership andwhat I'm doing, may or may not
resonate with people, but yougotta have something you believe
in.
You gotta have purpose anddrive.
you gotta have a focus.
do you, like who are you, whatdo you want to do?
What do you believe in and whatdo you want this company and
(42:23):
this thing to look like?
And do you have a vision forthat?
and is that the more clear itis, the more real it is.
So whether that is like writingit down.
Or whether that is drawing apicture or whatever the thing is
that helps make that clear foryou.
I think that's really helpful.
because you are, I mean, goingback to the sanctification
(42:47):
thing, you are not gonna want todo it.
So you gotta really believe init to persevere through all of
this different difficult,sanctifying things for hiring
and firing and like spendingmoney and taking risks and like
all the things that go intobuilding a business and being
(43:07):
like, you know, a bunch of mypeople who are my friends work
for me.
And there's an element wherelike, I don't have any friends
because a lot of my friends workfor me.
And then not, not, you know,like just fundamentally my
relationship with peoplechanges.
And then it's like, I godowntown and I walk.
I mean, we live in a small town.
I walk down Main Street and it'slike.
(43:29):
well, that person used to workfor me.
That person got fired.
That person, you know, it'slike, it's just a weird
dynamics.
And if you lived in a biggertown, you probably wouldn't have
those same dynamics, but it'sjust weird, right?
And so, like, what do youbelieve in?
Because you better reallybelieve in it because there's
gonna be so many distractionsand so much pressure from other
places that it's gonna be reallyeasy to be lost and you're gonna
(43:50):
be tempted to not make the harddecisions.
and ultimately I think that'svery analogous to like your
faith, right?
What do you believe in?
Because the world is gonna tellyou that you're wrong and
they're gonna make it reallycomfortable for you to basically
be complacent in your sin,right?
And that's just that, that's howthat works.
And so if you want to grow, youwant to drive, you gotta really
(44:11):
believe in something.
And then, so like that, I thinkthat's really important.
But then there's a real level ofhumility that has to go along
with that.
So you gotta be totally all in,bought in and almost be
uncomfortably confident andarrogant about what you believe
in.
But then that has to be built ona foundation of humility
Jason (44:30):
Yeah.
Jeff (44:31):
And when you make mistakes, you're willing to
learn from those mistakes andmake it better.
Jason (44:36):
Yep.
Jeff (44:36):
then you're willing to like, like do you have these
principled things that youbelieve in, that the principles.
The thing that keep driving youto that vision, but your
humility and your willingness toacknowledge the fact that you're
a sinner.
That you're not perfect, thatyou tried something, that you
spent$5,000 on this thing and itfailed, or you spent$50,000 on
(44:59):
this other thing and it failed.
And that's okay because that isall the sanctification process.
Right.
And so do you have that humilitythat then supports that vision
that you're able to keep drivingand keep growing, keep moving
towards that thing?
yeah, I think those are like thefocus and the humility.
and then as the leader, you haveto own it all.
(45:21):
You, you, you don't just get toown the win, you have to own the
losses.
Right.
Jason (45:26):
yeah.
Jeff (45:26):
Yeah.
I mean, like everyone's looking,and everyone's temptation is to
want to own the win, but reallyyou kind of have to deflect the.
Right.
The win is for everybody.
The loss is for you.
Jason (45:37):
It's all
Jeff (45:37):
And so are you willing to take, and again, that would be
analogous to Christ, right?
He owned all of our losses,
Jason (45:45):
Yeah, he did and gave us all his righteousness.
Jeff (45:47):
You gotta own it all.
You can't own parts of it.
You can't deflect it.
you gotta own it all.
And sometimes owning it, ifyou've delegated responsibility,
means holding someoneaccountable to the small part
that they owned.
And it might mean doing the hardthing of having a hard
conversation or even lettingthat person go, right?
But own.
if that person isn't a good fitand they need to be let go, and
(46:10):
you don't do that, you're notowning it.
Right?
and so like, I think the, likehaving that principled thing
that you believe in, having thehumility to work through it and
make the mistakes, and thentruly owning the entirety of it,
I think when I think aboutleadership, I think about that.
That is where real leadershiphappens.
Jason (46:29):
Sometimes people talk about vision and strategy and
it's like this big, amorphous,whatever, smokey.
I don't know, soft thing.
But what I hear you saying,Jeff, which is absolutely true,
and it's a good reminder, isthat as leaders we have to have
a vision and a clear picture ofwhere we're trying to go.
That's really what that is,right?
This vision is, I have a guyidea of what I want this
(46:50):
business to be.
Or it could be, you know what,you might be a department head.
Like, what I want my team, whatI want it to look like, what
does good look like to me?
And then every day getting upsaying, we're gonna, today,
we're gonna take another stepcloser to that vision, knowing
we're gonna stumble.
I love that.
Absolutely.
The ownership and the humilityis saying, we're gonna try,
(47:11):
we're gonna drive hard towardsthis vision, we will fail.
and saying, you know, as aleader, I'll take ownership of
those failures we make.
we're gonna go there togetherthough, so that's awesome.
Who do you, Jeff, who do youlike to read or listen to or
follow that keeps you sharp as aleader?
Jeff (47:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it's great that you'redoing this podcast.
'cause one of the things that isa struggle for me is, having
real legit Christians that aredoing real things
Jason (47:40):
Yeah.
Jeff (47:41):
to learn from.
most of the people who arepopular in the business
leadership space, aren'tChristians, or if they are, they
are like inclined towards beinglike prosperity gospel type
Christians, it doesn't mean youcan't learn great things from
all of those different people,but it is, a struggle, It's a
(48:03):
struggle to find like people whothink about their faith
similarly to how I think aboutmy faith and the impact that I
wanted to have on my life andthe business that I'm running.
the consequence for Christianbusiness owners is there's a lot
of Christian business ownersthat are basically just doing
what the world does and theirbusiness is.
(48:24):
There's, there's what they do atchurch.
Then there's the rest of theirlife or there's what they do at
church.
Like a lot of people get to thepoint'cause there's lots of
information about there, there'swhat they do at church, there's
what I do with raising my kids.
There's what I do with, and Ithink about politics and there's
that whole world and myChristian worldview affects
that, but does it really affecthow they run their business?
(48:44):
Because there's not a lot ofpeople really talking about
that.
And that ends up being achallenge.
So unfortunately, most of thepeople on my list of like people
that I interact with and booksthat I read are not Christians.
Or if they are, it's not reallyfrom a substantive Christian
perspective.
So like one of the books that Iappreciate a lot is Extreme
(49:04):
Ownership by Jocko Willink.
I think Good to Great, is likeclassic, leadership, business
entrepreneurship book again.
That is a great book.
another one, five Dysfunctionsof the Team.
So again, that is a great bookabout understanding leadership
and about understanding, all ofthe terrible things you could do
as a leader, and then likepractical thing about how to fix
(49:25):
'em.
another book, the E-MythRevisited.
Jason (49:28):
Oh, man, you're the first person that's ever mentioned
that, and I read that.
I read that when I did anexecutive MBA, and we read that
and that was a, especially forentrepreneurs, that was a super
impactful book.
Jeff (49:40):
Yep.
So like one of the earlier,like, I think it was written in
the early eighties and one ofthe earlier like true
entrepreneur books, like the eis the Entrepreneur Myth.
Right?
and a lot of people havebasically modernized the same,
the same themes and principlesfrom that Michael Gerber did in
that book.
Right.
Which is great.
(50:00):
So that is for sure afoundational book was very
eyeopening for me.
The first time I was like, oh,this is me.
Oh, this is me, this is me, thisis me.
Right.
totally.
helpful.
Jason (50:10):
I think if you're an entrepreneur, I'll say that for
those listening, if you are orwant to be an entrepreneur,
E-Myth Revisited is a must read.
It's a really good book.
Jeff (50:19):
so just from a practical standpoint, like Dan Martel and
Buyback Your Time has beenreally helpful for me as a like
CEO ish leader type person.
Pushing me to examine what am Idoing with my life and where am
I really going.
things that are super helpful,like slightly outside of the
leadership space, I would saywould be the goal by Elijah
(50:41):
Gold.
Right.
Jason (50:42):
Yep,
Jeff (50:42):
Right.
so I think again, you have likeJewish physicist guy writing a
book about manufacturing, butreally it's a book about all of
life and really it makes sensebecause he understands the world
that God made better than mostof us as Christians.
Right.
And so just super weird bookbecause it's like this didactic
(51:03):
novel, but also a really funread.
I would say for us, that's kindof our bible here at Tenor, as
we follow the theory,
Jason (51:10):
theory of
Jeff (51:10):
theory of constraints.
Yep.
and so like I've read thatprobably six or eight times.
and so I think that's a reallygood book, and I think the
principles of it can apply toany business, not just a
manufacturing business.
So whether you are a servicebusiness, consulting business,
like definitely worth a read totry to understand.
the theory of constraints andwhat is throughput It's like the
(51:31):
more you study it and read aboutit and think about it, the more
you understand the significanceof what throughput is and what
it means.
so that was a really good book.
another really good book that Ithink for any, on the finance
world, and I think the goal kindof helped me push me that
direction is like, I generallydon't.
Appreciate most of the financeworld and how we are supposed to
(51:53):
manage money and do thosethings.
I have some pretty crazy viewsabout that.
and so a book that to me made alot of sense and it was
basically how we manage ourfinances is a book called Profit
First, which is kind of a DaveRamsey ish, basically a very
practical way for a business tomanage their money.
And so if any of the listenersout there are struggling with
(52:15):
how to manage your money, profitFirst is a great.
Business and it basically isanother layer of money
management system kind of beforeyour p and l, before your
balance sheet, before yourstatement of cash flow, and
really shines a light on things.
And I know people who've done itand they're like, I wouldn't
have seen this problem formonths if I was just looking at
(52:36):
my p and l.
the fact that I manage my moneythrough this profit first system
would see problems earlier andfix things faster.
and it's just a super practicalapproach.
and it basically, you know, Ithink the average business in
America, probably does 500,000to a million dollars a year in
revenue, maybe has half amillion dollars in business
debt.
(52:57):
which is like, that's a fairamount of revenue, but the owner
of that company probably makes75 to a hundred grand a year.
And is just slaving away, right?
And then every few years maybegets a distribution where they
can pay themselves an extra 50,60, 70$5,000 and they're like,
oh wow, this is great.
We made more money this year.
(53:17):
Right?
And there's this constanthamster wheel that is spinning
and they can't get out of it.
And Profit First is kind of thefix for that, is to understand,
for me, I started it earlyenough that it didn't cause
significant changes in how wedid the bus, how we ran the
business.
It basically has guided howwe've managed our money, which
has been great.
but for a business that was amore mature business that tried
(53:39):
to implement it, it'd probablybe really, really hard to
implement it, but I think is agreat book.
I recommended it to severalfriends and I know people who
have implemented it and it'sreally helped their business.
Jason (53:50):
I've never heard of that one, so I'll definitely, link'em
all in the show notes so peoplecan click and check'em out on
Amazon, so I appreciate thatrecommendation.
Jeff (53:56):
then, probably two books that I really, that I think just
from a, not so much as abusiness owner, but, or
entrepreneur, but certainlyapplicable to that.
And really, but I thinkapplicable to anybody who's a
Christian that is trying toembrace their sanctification and
make improvement in their life.
So one would be a book calledProductivity, which is by Doug
(54:18):
Wilson, which is basically amore of like a worldview book
about how to think about how todo things in the world and how
to think about stuff.
So how do you think abouttechnology?
How do you think about,accomplishing things like what's
the right frame of reference?
So it's basically like Proverbscontextual to the modern mind.
(54:38):
combine that with a book calledWith Winning in Mind.
Which is by Lanny Basham.
Lanny Basham was a, Olympic goldmedalist in the seventies and he
wrote a book called With Winningin Mind, which is about mental
management and how to thinkabout improvement.
And that a system of managing,like most people's problem is
how they think about the world.
(54:59):
their obstacle to performance ishow they think about things.
basically to implement it ishard'cause it's not just a read,
it's a study and a bunch ofdoing.
if you take the foundation ofhow to think about the world
from productivity, you couldpair that with winning in mind.
And I think basically you coulddo anything you want.
and so somebody who is lookingto make changes in their life
(55:21):
from a Christian Biblicalperspective, I think those two
books together are prettypowerful.
Jason (55:26):
Awesome.
Good.
Now those are goodrecommendations, some I've never
heard of, and a couple of'emthat are super classic, so
that's good.
Well, good man.
How could people, Jeff, if theywanted to connect with you,
what's the best way to do that?
To reach out
Jeff (55:38):
to connect with me.
I'm probably, as far as likesocial media platforms, I'm
probably most active on likeInstagram.
Like I have LinkedIn andFacebook, but probably most
active on Instagram.
you know, Tencor, like we have apretty active Instagram at, at
Tencor usa and then also onYouTube, most of our stuff is
like training, shootingperformance, content focused.
Jason (56:00):
How do you spell?
we will, put a link to the 10 ofcourse, website, but how do you,
how do you spell the Nu name?
Jeff (56:05):
Tencor is T-E-N-I-C-O-R.
Jason (56:09):
Okay.
Jeff (56:09):
And a core.
Jason (56:10):
Well, so you have a YouTube, the company has a
YouTube channel too, to showsome of the products.
Obviously website, you said youcan go there and check out, and
buy stuff from there.
Well, hey, brother, thank youfor your time.
I know you're super busy.
it's been an absolute joyhearing, what God's done in your
life, what he is doing.
the background of the, both thelaw enforcement and
entrepreneur.
I have so much respect forpeople who went out and taking
(56:31):
the plunge and have done theirown thing.
So thank you
Jeff (56:33):
Thanks for having me.
This is great.
Jason (56:35):
All right, man.
Appreciate it, And thank you allfor joining me again this month
to hear from anotherfaith-driven leader.
Be sure to subscribe and likethe podcast to help others find
us.
I hope you'll be back next monthas we help each other and all of
our journeys towards honoringChrist and our work as leaders.
I.
Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work Podcast.
I'm your host, Jason Woodard.
In this month's episode, JeffMao shares his compelling
transition from a career in lawenforcement to becoming a
successful entrepreneur.
Jeff discusses his professionalbackground, including his
decision to leave a stable jobat Expedia for law enforcement
(00:20):
and eventually founding his owncompany, Tencor, which focuses
on high performance concealmentproducts.
He talks about the significantchallenges, learning
experiences, and motivationsthat guided his journey.
Jeff also delves into his faithjourney, the importance of
sanctification and maintainingspiritual disciplines.
Additionally, he offers valuableinsights on leadership, managing
(00:41):
a growing business, and stayinghumble while aiming for
excellence.
This conversation is filled withpractical advice and reflections
on blending personal values withprofessional aspirations.
Jeff Mao, thank you for joiningme on the podcast, brother.
I look forward to getting toknow you and having the audience
get to know you as well.
(01:02):
So thank you.
Jeff (01:02):
Looking forward to this.
Jason (01:04):
Yeah.
So, let's talk a little bitabout your professional
background.
you've been law enforcement, nowyou're an entrepreneur, but tell
us a little bit about how theLord led you from high school,
early career on to where you'regoing now, like a resume review.
Jeff (01:17):
Yep.
I went to public high school,went to community college for a
couple years, and then theUniversity of Washington is
where I graduated from.
I was married while I was inschool.
so when I graduated I was like,I should be responsible and get
an actual real job pretty soon.
worked for a mortgage companyfor a little bit and then went
into the IT world and worked forexpedia.com.
(01:39):
and that was a great job, but Iguess I found that to be boring
and not interesting at all,sitting behind a desk and doing,
computer office type work.
and right after Vicki and I gotmarried, I had met somebody who
was the wife of a policeofficer.
And I was like, well, that'sinteresting.
I always used to like, you know,when I was a little kid playing
(02:00):
guns, thinking about themilitary, thinking about law
enforcement like most, youngguys.
and didn't really think aboutit.
Kind of grew outta that anddidn't really think about it as
a career really.
a lot of it probably had to doafter I became a Christian.
Like that, that world and thatkind of thing wasn't really,
Prevalent in the circles that Iwas running in.
but it was kind of, I was like,oh, that'd be an interesting
job.
(02:20):
so I kind of thought about itfor a bit, but didn't do
anything with it.
and just kind of over timeworking in the office, got
frustrated with not feeling likeI'm doing a lot.
I went to this conference, theNorthwest Conference on
Reformation and Revival and theguy there was talking about
calling and it really struck melike I should do the thing that
(02:40):
I want to do, that I believe in,that I think would be a good fit
Other people like my parents orlike my friends or other people
think is a good job.
'cause at the time, in like theearly two thousands
working@expedia.com, right afterit spins off from Microsoft is a
pretty good job.
and so I just felt convictedthat I wanted to do that.
And so I was like, let's seewhat happens.
(03:01):
So I started applying, and aftera period of time, I finally got
a job, and then went to thepolice academy, kind of.
In conjunction with that.
Before that I, you know, I said,I wanna be a cop.
Well, I should probably learnhow to shoot a gun and learn how
to fight.
so I started taking classes ata, company called Insights
Training Center, which, earlytwo thousands before like G Watt
(03:22):
and all the gun stuff and allthe training stuff that was
really popular.
Now they were one of the,original, national training
companies that went around andtrained people How to shoot
handguns, how to shoot rifles,how to do, combatives and kind
of had an integrated system.
So I started taking classes withthem.
around the time I went to theacademy, I started, teaching for
them as well.
(03:43):
And so I did that.
and that kind of dovetails intostuff that I'm doing later on.
That's why I bring that up.
and so I went to the academy.
I really enjoyed training.
I did that training with thatprivate company.
And I just really enjoyedtraining and being in that
environment.
the fact that I learned abouttraining and about how to do
training in the private sectorbefore I went into being a
police officer.
(04:03):
I think it was very foundationalfor me because I was.
Interacting with a company thatwas doing this as a for-profit
business, right?
So like in the governmentservice, you have to go to
training.
So it doesn't matter whether thetraining's any good, and it
doesn't matter whether you careif the training's any good, but
as a private company, likepeople are paying 200, 300,$400
a day to come take a class andit better be pretty good or
(04:25):
people are not gonna come back,right?
And so that was veryfoundational for me, for how I
thought about training, how Ithought about interacting with
folks, how I thought aboutproviding a service, to them.
And so went into the lawenforcement, as a police
officer, went to the academy,learned a lot.
I mean, like, I would argue thatat least in the Pacific
Northwest, like the period oftime, like your field training
(04:49):
time might be the most intense,Training for any profession out
there in a 12 to 16 week period.
Like the amount of informationand the amount of change that is
required of you as a person andhow you interact with the world
is like super intense.
and not everybody takes it thatseriously.
but just like is a prettysignificant shift from living in
(05:12):
a world, doing a certain thingand looking at the world a
totally different way andinteracting with the world in a
totally different way.
It's, I think it really, it wasreally challenging for me and
really rewarding, you know,obviously like a doctor or a
physician is learning more overthe course of their entire
training period, but that's a,you know, an eight or 12 year
training period and what you'redoing in a concentrated 12 to 16
(05:35):
week period I think is reallyintense.
and I really enjoyed it.
So being a police officer in thebeginning, super fun.
Jason (05:43):
and that's post academy, how long was the academy?
Jeff (05:46):
our academy was like 19 weeks,
Jason (05:48):
Okay.
So that's significant.
Jeff (05:50):
yeah.
Jason (05:51):
the academy you went into, was that like, for city
police?
County police?
What was that?
Jeff (05:55):
so it's the state of Washington and they do,
basically the state runs all ofcity and county law enforcement.
So the sheriff's office, thestate has their own academy for
the state patrol.
Jason (06:06):
Okay.
Jeff (06:07):
different states handle all of that differently.
Jason (06:09):
so then you went in, how long were you in law
enforcement?
Jeff (06:12):
I was in law enforcement for about 14 years.
so I, yeah, so I really enjoyedlike the training piece of it.
and so I ended up being like afield training officer.
I was a firearms instructor, adefensive tactics instructor.
I was on the SWAT team.
I was an instructor for variousthings on the SWAT team.
I always had patrol as like myprimary thing, and then use all
of that other training stuff aslike collateral assignments.
(06:34):
and, you know, overall from aleadership standpoint, again,
like I really enjoyed thetraining and I would say I
learned a lot about leadershipand about helping people and
about presenting information ina clear and concise way to make
people better.
Really from the private companythat I worked for Insights and
that gen translated into lawenforcement and I have a
different standard and differentexpectation for how to do
(06:57):
training and how to interactwith folks, because I was doing
stuff in the private sector aswell as in my government job.
Jason (07:04):
Did you, you continued in the private sector as
Jeff (07:06):
so I worked, I worked with Insights for probably from about
2003, 2004, probably until about2012 ish, 2010, 2012 ish.
so about seven and eight, nineyears or so that I was kind of
doing both.
So I would, work overtime, getcomp time, take a long weekend
so I could go teach classes onthe side and try to do that a
(07:28):
couple times a month.
Jason (07:29):
yeah.
So it's really a passion thenfor you training other people on
honing their skills and learningspecial, special, skills and
techniques within lawenforcement.
Okay.
Jeff (07:40):
Yep.
and ultimately the thing thatmade me leave law enforcement is
I realized like I was always theambitious person that wanted to
make things better and changethings.
and I always ended up inconflict with people because of
that.
most people who are policeofficers are people who like
stability and consistency.
And so somebody who comes in islike, we should change this and
(08:01):
make this better, is like theantithesis of stability and
consistency.
well there were always peoplewho really appreciated me.
Some coworkers and then someleadership.
But there were a lot of peoplewho, I really bothered them
because I was always trying tomake things different and people
didn't like that.
Jason (08:17):
drive change?
Jeff (08:18):
And ultimately I realized the government exists to
minimize liability, right?
there is a base social contractwe've written with the
government.
We expect them to providecertain services, and if they
don't provide those, they get introuble.
And so they just want to providethose, and that's it.
as long as they can meetbasically the minimum standard
necessary, then they're happy.
(08:39):
They've met that minimumobligation.
And so there's no incentive forthe government to change and
become better.
They just want to exist.
And my personality has alwaysbeen one to want to change and
be better, not just be content.
with who I am, I want to try tomake that better.
the thing that I've realized inthe last several years is like,
(08:59):
that's just sanctification,right?
People want to arrive.
and they want to get to acertain spot.
And the reality is the only timeyou are gonna arrive is in
glory.
'cause that's glorification.
And the thing that we get hereon earth is sanctification.
that is the process of doingsomething and learning from it
and being better.
whether that is in your personallife or whether that is at work,
(09:21):
whether that is in relationshipswith people, whatever that is,
there is this process ofsanctification.
And you can fight against thatprocess, which is what we're
usually inclined to do.
Or you can embrace that processand do something with all of
that.
Right?
And I think most people don'twant to embrace their
sanctification and they want tostay where they're at.
And I've always wanted to changeand it always created conflict
(09:45):
with people.
Jason (09:46):
Yeah.
I've spent my entire career inoperations, but there was a time
when I, began to get exposed toand get training on and fall in
love with continuousimprovement.
Jeff (09:55):
Mm-hmm.
Jason (09:56):
And I remember having that same epiphany as a
believer.
I was like, this is likesanctification, you know,
spiritual sanctification, but inthe business world or the
workplace to just have thisdesire to find ways to do things
better, right?
To drive for, strive forexcellence.
And it is a characteristic of,you know, he doesn't need to
(10:17):
improve, but for us to improveand find ways to do things
better towards perfection,chasing perfection.
No one will never get there.
Jeff (10:24):
for sure.
Jason (10:24):
So you,
Jeff (10:25):
the book, the Toyota Way, I think is a fantastic book.
It really struck me in manydifferent ways.
The thing that struck me waslike, this culture that is not
Christian or not Western,understands the world that God
made and how he ordered it andhow to implement it in a
company, corporate manufacturingenvironment.
it's true, not because somebodymade it up, but it's true
(10:47):
because it's consistent with howGod made the world.
one of the things that struck mein that book was one of the last
chapters they talk about Hanse.
Hanse is a Japanese word for anidea of, understanding that you
did something wrong and thenputting a action plan or
practice into place to fix thatthing, which sounds pretty
familiar.
It sounds like confession of sinand like repentance, right?
(11:11):
Which is like, obviously we'retalking about that in a
spiritual sense, but thatprinciple can be applied to all
aspects of life.
and.
I mean, I think from a businessstand standpoint or from an
operational standpoint, like Godhas a lot of things to say about
all of it, and it's mostly basedon principles.
If you understand the principlesand you're willing to apply them
(11:31):
to your work, and like we asWesterners, like we've taken,
like Toyota Manufacturingmethods and kind of turn them on
their heads and done weirdthings with them, with like Lean
six Sigma and like, we don't,like, we don't understand the,
like the, the undergirdingprinciples
Jason (11:49):
Yeah.
Jeff (11:50):
we we're obsessed with outcomes and not with processes.
and it all gets lost, right?
and I think that theirnon-Western.
Perspective is actually a moreChristian way to view the world
and is like embracing, whetherintentionally or not embracing
like the truths about how Godmade and ordered the world and
(12:10):
how people produce things andhow people get stuff done, and
how people interrelate to eachother and a business or,
operations culture.
Jason (12:18):
I was listening to a podcast today on, respect for
people and just how we buildculture.
this person talked about how theToyota production system, has
been embraced in the west, butoften we forget about the second
pillar of respect for people,and that as we look for
improvements, we not onlyinvolve them, but we're
(12:39):
positively impacting them in theworkplace when we are making,
improvements to the work thatthey're doing Taking waste out
and frustration and making theworkplace better.
And it made me think of what,Jeff, exactly what you're
talking about.
It's like we took the parts thatessentially will strive for
less, cost more profitabilityand just hyper-focus on that and
(13:00):
ignore the, oftentimes, notalways, but ignore the respect
for people part, which is alsooutright of a biblical
Jeff (13:08):
Mm-hmm.
Jason (13:08):
seeing that, people are made in God's image.
So, that's really good.
when, you transitioned, at somepoint, right?
You decided to make the leap.
I'd like to talk a little bitabout that.
I mean, that's a really toughtransition for anybody to go
from, I have a full-time job, Ihave benefits, I have a
paycheck.
By that time you haveresponsibilities of a spouse,
(13:29):
right?
Bills, maybe kids, I don't know.
But you made that leap.
What was that like?
Making that's a big risk that Ireally respect people that have
taken that risk.
So talk a little bit about thattransition.
Jeff (13:41):
kind of the story of my career, up until tenor was
always taking pay cuts, takinglike 30 to 50% pay cuts.
So I, I went from Expedia to,with stock options and
everything to law enforcement.
I took a huge pay cut.
I was at a particular agency.
I realized that I was doing, Iworked for three different law
(14:02):
enforcement agencies.
the middle one, I kind of had mydream job where like I had
almost an unlimited budget fortraining.
Like we were on a pretty busySWAT team, could kind of do
everything I wanted.
but I, that was when I reallyrealized like, ultimately
they're never gonna change andI'm a misfit here.
and so I decided, I gave upbeing a firearms instructor,
(14:22):
gave up being a DT instructor onthe SWAT team, like all of those
things.
And that for me, I had alwaysthought when I'm done with law
enforcement, I would go backinto teaching in the private
sector and do that full time.
but the thing that struck meabout that also is that when I
looked around into thatcommunity, there was no one that
I was like, that was a husbandand a father that I really
(14:43):
respected.
Like, I respected who they wereand what they did
professionally, but I wasn'tlike, man, that guy, I wanna
really be like him as a father.
I wanna be like him as ahusband.
because most of those guys are,if they're successful, they're
traveling 200, 250 days a year.
and obviously any job where youtravel that much is pretty hard
to be meaningfully engaged withyour family.
and so there's that side and Irealized I didn't know what I
(15:04):
wanted to do.
I had, so tenor is a, we makeconcealment products, so
holsters mag pouches and beltsis what we focus on.
and I had kind of dabbled withmaking stuff, just for myself
and for friends as early as like2005, 2006, 2007.
people liked it and they triedto buy it from me, and I sold a
few things just here and thereto people.
(15:25):
But I realized it wasn't a realbusiness.
Like there's no way, like Iwould make something and I might
spend two hours on it.
Sometimes I'd throw it in thetrash'cause it was garbage, and
other times it'd be a greatholster and I'd sell it to
someone for like a hundred bucksor something like that.
I'm like, that's obviously not ascalable business.
Right.
but, but it was always kind ofinteresting to me, and I guess
probably around 2014 15 when Irealized law enforcement isn't
(15:51):
for me, kind of the most maturething I had, or the most
interesting thing to me was thiswhole holster thing.
at that point, making holsterswas kind of in vogue and there
were a bunch of people whobasically had their own garage
holster business and there wasactually a whole business to
support garage holster people.
but from my perspective, all ofthose people were all making.
Basically the same thing.
(16:11):
And it wasn't really interestingto me.
I have a very high standard forwhat performance looks like.
and what I saw was there was noone making concealment products
that were, that concealed aswell as I thought they should
and were not as robust as Ithought they should.
So when there was pressureapplied to the product, is the
product gonna survive?
And most, and most people frommy perspective, didn't have the
(16:33):
context for understanding howthe equipment should be used and
what should be done with it.
So there wasn't anything that I,that met my standard.
And so from my perspective,there wasn't anything that was
like at the top of the pyramidof like, what is the best
concealment products in theworld?
And there basically was a bunchof upper middle class, middle
class and lower class products,but nothing at the very top.
(16:53):
and so like I saw that as anopportunity and I was like, if
you.
I mean, a couple things stuckwith me.
One would be like, I, I thought,you know, Walmart could never
become Nordstrom's, butNordstrom's could become
Walmart, right?
So if I go for the top, I couldalways do something lower, but
if I go just at the baseline, Icould, you can never push your
(17:14):
brand up.
and then the other thing, afriend of mine who was an
instructor stuck with me.
He was like, you know, if youown a service business, which is
training would be a servicebusiness, you're kind of stuck,
basically working in thatservice business forever.
Because if you hire otherpeople, the level of service
will always be a notch or twobelow, right?
(17:35):
And you can never truly be freefrom that service business if
you have high standards.
He was like, if you have aproduct business, at some point
the product has been designed,it's been made, it's being
produced, you're sleeping.
You're making money, you're onvacation and you're making
money.
And that really stuck with me.
I was like, okay, can I takethis training thing that I do?
(17:55):
Could I just use that as like amarketing piece and then let's
make a product.
and so probably around 2015 iswhen I got really serious about
trying to figure out what doesit look like to, in a real
production environment, actuallymake a holster and not just be
one of these garage holstermakers.
and so I looked at things likeinjection molding pretty
(18:16):
serious.
I looked, I looked at a bunch ofdifferent things.
Most people kinda laughed at me'cause they were like, there's
no way this guy's gonna spendthe money to do these things.
And ultimately I ended up kindof following a similar process.
I was a garage holster makerbecause bot tenor started in our
house.
but ultimately, well, I did bothjobs at the same time.
so I started working diligentlyon tenor, probably around 2000.
(18:39):
I, I've kind of flirted with itin 2015, but 2016 I started
working really hard on it, and Ididn't leave law enforcement
until the end of 2018, so almosta two year period where I did
basically both of them fulltime.
And yeah, it was scary to makethat transition, right?
And everybody thought I wascrazy that I would be able to do
(18:59):
that, or that I would take thatrisk.
but from my perspective, I waslike, this is interesting.
And when I did the math and Ipenciled it out, I knew there
was no comparison between my lawenforcement job and the pension
and what this could end upmeaning financially for me and
my family, right?
and so if I thought it was gonnawork and we were really gonna
(19:20):
make the highest performingproducts in their category, it
was gonna be worth the risk.
I talked to all these differentpeople.
I had ideas about product designin the beginning.
I hired someone to do CAD for meeventually.
I taught myself cad, and so lawenforcement fundamentally
changed really at that time withFerguson and all the racial of
stuff at that point.
(19:40):
And basically, post Ferguson,most of law enforcement stopped
being proactive and everyone wasall react.
It was like, wait till a callcomes, go answer the call
between calls.
You can do whatever you want.
And so I was like, okay, welleveryone else is sitting in the
fire station drinking coffee.
I'm gonna go sit in my carsomewhere and park somewhere,
open up YouTube and buy Fusion360.
(20:01):
And it was free for, for peoplestarting businesses.
And I'm gonna go through all thetutorials and teach myself cad.
And so I had a guy who was doingCAD for me.
I was learning CAD at the sametime.
Eventually I got to the pointwhere I could do it faster than
I could explain what I wantedthe guy to do.
And so I learned how to do CADand I learned how to do product
design first I sent stuff off toProtolabs for, they would
(20:24):
machine the tooling and stufffor me and they'd send it back.
That was really expensive and Iwas like, I need to figure out
CNC machining.
So I bought myself little hobbyCNC machines and started cutting
tooling and that was a learningprocess.
And I should have bought, youknow, a Haas VF two a long time
ago, but instead I bought fiveother little small machines
working my way up to that.
(20:44):
Right.
But that was a whole process ofthings, of trying to play with
that stuff, teach myself thatstuff and figure it out.
And then ultimately, so tenor,we do everything in house.
So from idea to design, CADtooling, prototyping,
production, tooling, productionfulfillment, like everything is
in house.
And it all, for me, I mean, itall was stuff that like I made
(21:06):
up.
For the most part.
It's like me and YouTubefiguring out how to make a
manufacturing business.
and it, it is a lot and it'ssuper fun.
and it was lots of, so like Iwouldn't wish my journey on
anybody and most people probablywouldn't want it.
'cause I, like most people willsay, oh, I worked 70 hours last
week, or I worked 80 hours lastweek.
(21:28):
and a lot of people probablydid, but a lot of people when
they say that are exaggerating,But for me, I worked for an
agency where, I was working foran agency that had 12 hour
shifts and it was an hour to twohours commute.
Right.
And I lateraled to an agencythat had eight hour shifts and I
had a take home car and I workedreal, like within 10 minutes of
(21:49):
my house.
So I basically almost go intoservice and outta service at my
house, basically adding severalhours a day of transition time.
and so my, what my day wouldlook like is I'd start shift at
four o'clock.
I'd work until like two o'clock.
I'd get off, I'd go to sleep,I'd wake up at about eight or
(22:09):
nine, and I'd work on 10 o'clockuntil about three o'clock in the
afternoon.
when I had to get ready to go towork and eat some food and then
go to work.
And that was what my daysconstantly looked like.
And I would take off.
Sunday from about, you know,maybe Saturday evening until
Sunday mid-afternoon was like mytime off during the week.
(22:30):
And that was my time block oftime off.
And at the time, wehomeschooled, our kids were
little.
And so I would have touchpointswhere I could take 15 or 20
minutes and go eat dinner, or Icould take 15 or 20 minutes and
go hang out and do this thing.
And I would do that a few timesduring the day.
I have a take home car.
I'm working, we're starting thebusiness outta the house.
And my wife is amazing and superflexible, and we're
(22:52):
homeschooling the kids, right?
And so all of that, like thewhole world worked around me
being able to maintain.
And that doesn't mean it wasn'thard to do all that.
There were times when there'stons of pressure and it's like,
should we really be doing this?
but I'm working 14, 15, 16 hoursa day consistently for a couple
years.
and it was a, like, I don't lookback.
(23:15):
I mean, it was kind of fun, butit was also terrible.
Jason (23:18):
Yeah.
Jeff (23:18):
And that's why most people I think don't start businesses.
Jason (23:21):
Yep.
It's hard.
Jeff (23:22):
and ultimately, like the 10 Core is a bootstrap business.
I didn't go and get a loan fromanybody.
I didn't go and get investmentfrom anybody.
Like I own it and like I.
We don't have any business debtand it just is what it is,
right?
We bootstrapped it from thebeginning when it, when it came
time to make stuff and I had togo from buying tens of things to
(23:43):
hundreds of things or thousandsof things like that.
Just like I didn't get to makeany money.
It was just more investment.
Right?
And it's like if you do that onthe front end, then it slowly
scales, right?
another thing about 10 the most,so most of the, most custom or
most holster companies start outas a small business and they
(24:04):
start out as a garage holstercompany and they start out as a,
made to order type thing.
And then they basically neverget out of that mode.
they take your money.
Before the product exists, theygo make the product, then they
ship it.
And that works out fine in thebeginning when you don't have a
lot of business.
But once you've got a lot ofbusiness, now you have a two
week lead time, then you have afour week lead time, then you
(24:26):
have a 16 week lead time, you'retalking about giving money for
this thing and waiting 16.
Like that's just weird in thisday and age.
Right?
I'm, we're all used to Amazon.
I give you the money and itshows up this afternoon.
and so my thought was like, Idon't wanna be a custom holster
company.
We're gonna be a productionholster company and we're not
gonna make any money until,until we can actually be a
(24:49):
production holster company andwe have enough stuff in stock.
and so that's where like we've,we've always inventoried our
stuff and we've only sold whatwe have already made.
And that has been somethingwe've done from the beginning,
which is different I think fromin general, a lot of small
businesses and for sure in ourlittle space.
and that was a thing that's hardto do.
and you have to, I mean, it'slike we don't buy things on
(25:10):
terms.
Which is also weird.
Like I think that's a weirdhamster wheel that people try to
spin and it's like, well, if Ileverage this and I buy things
on terms, then you know, they'llpay me and I'll pay them and
then I can siphon money off thewheel, the hamster wheel, right?
And I'm like, no, if I buysomething, I'm gonna buy
something I have cash for.
And then, and unfortunately noone else feels that way.
(25:32):
So everyone wants to buy from uson terms.
but somehow I have to float thething.
But that is a thing that we'velearned.
Like we just have to put moremoney in our materials account
so we can float everyone else'sterms.
But that puts us in a spacewhere we're relatively cash
rich.
and so when we have profit, it'sactual real profit.
It's not like fake, weird profithoping to keep that wheel
(25:55):
spinning.
Right.
And so that was a thing from thebeginning that I was like, we
need to be a production shop andwe need to make that thing go.
And which made like, I mean Itook a huge pay cut going from
law enforcement to this.
And I was, you know, I took a50% pay cut, and it was a huge
risk and people thought I wascrazy.
and I did it way, that's not howI thought I would do it.
(26:16):
I was like, oh, I'll quit lawenforcement once I can pay
myself the same, I would makefrom law enforcement plus the
benefits I'm losing.
But that never happened.
Jason (26:24):
How many people, do you have on your team now?
Jeff (26:27):
we have about 45 people.
Jason (26:28):
That's huge.
That's big man for starting offwith just running it outta your
garage.
Jeff (26:32):
Yeah.
We're not in our garage.
So we're in about a 8,000 squarefoot building right now.
We just bought a new buildingthat's about 20,000 square feet.
we're waiting on permits fromthe city to start a renovation.
Jason (26:42):
And you do, so you guys are doing design, manufacturing,
everything.
Who's your, who do you mainlysell to?
commercial users?
Individuals,
Jeff (26:51):
our endeavor is to be the highest performing product in
its category.
we're trying to occupy the top,of the pyramid.
probably about 80% of our salesare on our website direct to
consumer.
and then about 20% of our salesare to government agencies.
Mostly that is federal lawenforcement, military special
operations, and the intelligencecommunity.
(27:13):
I'm not the one who gets todecide whether we're the top of
the pyramid.
Ultimately, it's the end user.
I think a lot of the people who,like our product would say we
are the best, which is whatwe're trying to do.
ultimately that is just a thingthat needs to play out over
time.
and so we have tons of growth.
We have tons of product ideasand products we're working on
that would push us into otherspaces within the holster
(27:34):
accessory world.
and a lot of that is, you know,it's really been interesting.
A lot of it is like, anotherthing that I realized early is
if you grow too big too quickly,that can be the thing that puts
you outta business.
you know, we have grown at.
30%, 150%, 50% year over yearkind of consistently.
It's always been big numberslike that for us.
(27:56):
last year we grew it, we werelike, revenue wise, we was like
46% year over year.
This year we're on pace for asimilar thing.
And so the growth is big andaggressive, which is great.
but there's actually products,ideas that we have that could
make the thing go even bigger.
but I've always felt likeorganizationally we're not
mature enough for that.
and so for us, it has been kindof like trying to pace out,
(28:20):
trying to balance enough thatpushes us and that makes it
really hard without too much,that just completely crushes us.
Jason (28:27):
Well, and I, you know, the other thing I think people
don't realize when you talkabout those levels of growth, if
they've not been inmanufacturing, Is, that's a
tremendous challenge'cause it'snot just driving revenue and
someone else makes it for you.
You're growing capital peopletraining that I have seen more
than once be the achilles heelof a manufacturing operation.
(28:51):
It just grew too fast.
You couldn't sustain it.
And then all the, all the thingsyou're trying to do to be
stable, from safety to quality,all it goes backwards because
you're just, it's growing
Jeff (29:03):
Yep.
For sure.
Yeah.
Totally different if you areoutsourcing your production to
someone else.
but our experience withoutsourcing is nobody.
We're trying to be the best,
Jason (29:12):
yep.
Jeff (29:12):
are not trying to be the best.
They're just trying to be good,which is, and there's nothing
wrong with that.
We've tried to outsource.
And it's just been a realchallenge to find people who
will make stuff to our standardthat is consistent with what we
want.
And so basically we've decidedwe have to do it all in-house.
It's like, you know, if we gotan order for too much too soon,
(29:34):
like it would crush us and wewouldn't like, it would, you
know, do you say, oh, thanks forthe order, it'll take two years
to deliver that?
Or do you say, we're just notgonna sell on the website
anymore and we're just gonnasell?
I mean, like that doesn't work,right?
we want, hopefully enough thatmakes us really uncomfortable,
Jason (29:53):
yeah,
Jeff (29:53):
to continue to grow.
Right.
And that ties back to thatsanctification, right?
Jason (29:57):
Yeah.
Hey, a little pivot on theconversation.
Jeff, tell us about your faithjourney.
How and when did you come toknow the Lord?
What'd that look like?
Jeff (30:05):
Yeah.
So I grew up in a home thatwasn't a Christian home.
I went to.
Public school.
a friend of mine wanted to go onthis backpacking trip when I was
a freshman in high school.
And I was like, oh, that soundscool.
He invited me to go with him.
I went with him.
And that was a, backpacking tripto a place called Beyond Malibu,
which is in Canada, which islike a young life camp.
(30:27):
and so I went to that and then Istarted going to Young Life in
high school and kind of went to,I kept going because I kind of
liked the people, but I, kepttelling them why they're stupid
and why Christianity is dumb andwhy it's just a crutch and why
you don't really need it.
And it's just because.
You know, I mean, I basicallybattled with them throughout and
then all these people probablypraying for me.
(30:48):
and I became a Christian mysenior year in high school.
it was like the guy who was ayoung life leader and a really
good friend of mine who was mypastor, when we lived over in
the Seattle area.
he and I went to high schooltogether and he later on became
a pastor.
both of those people were reallyinstrumental in my life in terms
of being examples of what, beinga faithful Christian looked
like.
not being a hypocrite andstruggling through your sin and
(31:09):
repenting of your sin andacknowledging it and not
pretending that you're perfectand just being a real person.
Right.
and so I became a Christian whenI was a senior in high school.
then I actually, for my firstyear in college, I was a young
life leader.
and then kind of realized thatwasn't really the right fit for
me.
When I first became a Christian,there was a small reform church
that I went to, and then therewas a charismatic church that I
(31:31):
went to.
And I liked both of thosebecause like, these people are
serious, right?
In their own different ways, butthey're serious about their
faith.
and ultimately I ended up on themore kind of intellectual reform
side of things.
And so I went to, to a, youknow, reformed evangelical
church.
and then my wife, we led younglife together and she started
(31:51):
coming to that church as well.
and then eventually we, youknow, ended up getting married,
and had kids and yeah, I've beengonna church ba basically went
to that same church for, youknow, 20 some years.
and then we moved over to Idahoabout four years ago, and are
now over here.
So that's, yeah.
Jason (32:11):
How'd you guys meet?
Jeff (32:12):
she was a young life leader.
In young life.
She led young life and I ledyoung life kinda with her on the
same team.
And so that's how we got to knoweach other.
Jason (32:19):
What are your spiritual disciplines now, Jeff?
How do you keep close to theLord?
How do you keep growing andsanctification.
Jeff (32:25):
Yeah.
I mean, everyone knows thethings that they're supposed to
do, but doing those things arehard, right?
Like, you're supposed to readthe Bible every day.
You're supposed to pray everyday.
You're supposed to go to churchevery week.
You're supposed to keep shortaccounts with people.
and then all of that is achallenge.
And so like, I would say, youknow, I have consistently gone
to church every week, prettymuch ever since I became a
(32:45):
Christian.
That was a thing that, like evenon vacation it's something that
I think is important that we tryto do.
so that would be a thing.
as far as.
Reading the Bible.
I think most people, if they'rebeing honest, struggle with
that.
It's like brushing your teeth.
do you actually brush your teethor floss your teeth every day?
Probably flossing more thanbrushing, right?
and reality is that is afundamental shift.
if you didn't grow up in a homewhere that's what you did, for
(33:09):
somebody who grew up in aChristian home and they watch
their parents read their Bibleevery day and pray every day,
they don't know anythingdifferent and blessings to them,
But if you grow up in a homewhere everyone sits around and
watches TV and doesn't do any ofthose things, that's a hard
thing to overcome.
and so I would say it, I like,just frankly, you know, there
were spurts of times where Iread my Bible consistently over
(33:32):
the last 25.
For, I guess 30 years nowalmost.
but it probably is in the lastfive or six years that it's like
pretty much every day I do that.
Right.
And that has, that has just beena maturing, personal journey of
understanding, discipline andunderstanding how to make habit
changes and being consistentabout those habit changes in
(33:52):
your life.
and I would say prayer is athing that I still probably
struggle with the most, right?
That I, being consistent anddeliberate about getting on my
knees every single day andpraying and giving, being
grateful for specific things andthen asking for specific things
is probably the area that I'm,that I, I've not been consistent
with over the last 30 someyears.
(34:13):
Right.
and is a thing that really inthe last probably several
months, I've been moreconsistent with.
And is a kind of like, I feellike I have routine and
structure around reading myBible in the morning every
single day.
and I'm trying to put routineand structure and consistency
around the prayer side ofthings.
but I think, and then as far asinteracting with people, you
(34:33):
know, I talked about keepingshort accounts, right?
And so like, that's like you goto church and you worship, you
read your Bible and you pray.
But the outworking of that faithcomes out in a certain way.
And I think ultimately thatcomes, like we talked about
sanctification.
It's like keeping short accountswith people, right?
everybody has sin in their life.
And if you let the sin go, thejunkyard grows.
(34:55):
But if you keep short accountswith your wife, with your kids,
with your friends, then it lookslike this beautiful manicured
park, I'm really grateful that,God brought us to a particular
church, where that was theexpectation, like that was
preached about from the pulpit,and that was given an example
from the leadership in thechurch of like, what does it
(35:15):
look like to keep short accountswith your wife, with your
children?
and so like being willing toconfess your sin, and
acknowledge it.
I think one of the most powerfulthings you can do as a parent is
confess your sin to yourchildren,
Jason (35:27):
Yeah.
Jeff (35:28):
there's just like, I think that it's sad, but probably,
certainly many and maybe evenmost adult Christians.
Don't confess their sin to theirkids.
And ultimately that's justpride.
I think that is one of the mostpowerful things you can do.
I mean, one, it's just like,that's what you have to do.
'cause if you sinned againstyour kids, you're required to do
that.
(35:48):
But you're like then setting theexample of like actual humility
and actual working out of yourfaith in your life that you're
not so much better than yourchildren or than your co or even
like here at work, right?
Like I have, I have publiclyconfessed sin in the office,
right?
I mean, I had a meeting whereit's like, gather all the people
around who I was interactingwith in this one way sitting
(36:10):
against them.
and I'm sitting there bawling,right?
Because God like, totally like.
Crunched me down to a littleball and it's like, like, you
stuck and figure this out.
I'm like, okay, yeah, I reallydo suck and I have to repent of
this.
And then my repentance has to beas public as my sin was.
Well, I guess that's everybody.
And so let's have a meeting,gather everybody up and like
(36:33):
confess my sin to everybody.
And, but that's like, that'ssanctification, right?
Like that is the, the workingout of those things.
as a father, as a husband, as abusiness leader, you have to be
the example of those things tothose people and you don't
really have an option.
And it's super weird and reallyuncomfortable.
Jason (36:52):
Yeah, it is.
No, that's good, man.
I appreciate your transparency,Jeff, on all that.
I mean, those are all spiritualdisciplines and I think that, as
you said, there's thefundamentals that we all know as
believers that we need to strivefor being in the word, being in
prayer, being in community withour church and we're all in
different areas of that, andeven different seasons, as you
said.
(37:12):
but what you talked about withkeeping short accounts, that's
good because, you know, I don'tthink I've had people on that
talk about that and theimportance of that, that's super
important both at work and athome and being able to confess
to your kids.
I can remember, and I certainlywasn't great at that, but I can
remember when my oldest became ateenager and you know, just
telling him as I was correctinghim in some areas, but then also
(37:35):
really trying to also say, Hey,look, I like.
I get it because I was therewhen I was your age.
I mean, I still struggle withsin as your dad and, you know,
realizing me, then realizing howimportant that was to not just
be the disciplinarian and, youknow, trying to hold them
accountable without everconfessing or being open about
(37:56):
your own struggles, because theyknow, your kids know, they know,
they know you better thananybody else.
They see how you handle things.
They know.
Yeah, That's right.
So, no, that's really good, man.
I appreciate
Jeff (38:05):
Yeah.
and I think it plays out in theworkplace, like keeping short
accounts is just like reviewsand stuff
Jason (38:11):
Yeah.
Jeff (38:12):
So like if someone has an issue, are you willing to talk
to them about the issue?
And it may not be a sin issue,but it's just the principle of
keeping short accounts.
Like, hey, here's thisperformance issue, or here's
this performance thing that youdid well, and make sure there's
communication about that.
And so when it comes time todealing with those problems, if
it escalates to a certain point,if you've kept short accounts,
(38:32):
it's pretty clear.
It's not a surprise.
Right?
but it's really hard.
And it's just like dealing withyour sin is really hard.
Dealing with people andperformance issues is also
really
Jason (38:42):
Yeah.
I think that is so critical,what you just said.
I'm a huge believer and I've,developed a pretty decent habit
of, doing one-to-ones and beingreal open with my team and
transparent.
it took a lot of years of workand discipline and other mentors
showing me the importance, buteven recently seeing some of
the, problems that come whenthat doesn't happen.
(39:03):
And this thing I've thoughtabout lately is that, you know,
clarity is kindness as abeliever, I was just having this
conversation with my boss.
he's, not a believer, but wetalk pretty openly with each
other about faith, and he's veryrespectful of where I am we were
talking about having difficultconversations with people and I
said, even for me, it's part ofmy faith and it drives me to
(39:25):
have those conversations thatyou don't have'em in anger.
you have them out of love andtruthfulness to the people on
your team.
to me it's much better to dothat even though it's hard than
to ever get to a point where youhave to ultimately let somebody
(39:45):
go.
And it was a surprise to them.
I think that is just really,that's terrible to do that.
And, so keeping those shortaccounts, being transparent,
being open clear to them, youknow, and being open for
feedback from them to say.
Look, this is where I see yourperformance, but you tell me
what do you need?
Is there something that I can dodifferently to help you?
(40:06):
You know, early on in thoseconversations, at some point, at
some point you've done what youcan, for that person and had
those multiple conversations,escalating conversations that
there's not a surprise.
So no, I think that's, that'ssuper important as leaders to do
that.
I wanted to ask you, go to your,when you guys moved, was what,
(40:27):
was it difficult, challenging atall to find a new church?
What was that like for you
Jeff (40:32):
no.
I mean, we moved to a placewhere we had a bunch of friends
and we basically knew where wewere gonna go, go to church.
Jason (40:38):
Nice.
Jeff (40:38):
from a church to another, like sister church in the same
denomination.
and so that wasn't, it was aknown thing moving to the
community we're in now.
Jason (40:47):
that's good because I, we've only really made one big
move in our adult lives.
That's one of the toughest partsfor us.
we were really super pluggedinto a church.
Our kids had grown up in thatchurch, we homeschooled.
So it was our entire social lifewas that church for like a
decade and then we moved andthat was tough for the kids
Jeff (41:05):
Yeah.
No, and our kids, everybody,like we moved and our oldest,
you know, she was a senior,she's going into her senior year
in high school, and she was theone who was like the biggest
advocate for moving.
and she's like, had a greattime.
So the kids, a couple of thekids were like, eh, I'm not sure
about it.
But everybody loves it now,
Jason (41:21):
I'm glad.
Good.
That can be tough.
Hey, I wanna talk a little bitabout leadership.
Jeff, you have, you know, you'veworked in law enforcement and
now you work as an entrepreneur,a business owner.
I'm really interested in, youknow, what have you, over the
years, what have you developedas kind of your core leadership
kind of principles, the pillarsthat you always go back to as a
leader?
Jeff (41:41):
Yeah.
I think, as Christians we canget into things like talking
about servant leadership andstuff like that, which I think
kinda, it can become like clicheand maybe not really.
Yeah.
I guess doesn't, like at onepoint kind of.
Resonated with me, but probablydoesn't really resonate with me
now where I'm at today.
and what I do is probably alittle bit different than most
(42:03):
people.
my perspective on leadership andwhat I'm doing, may or may not
resonate with people, but yougotta have something you believe
in.
You gotta have purpose anddrive.
you gotta have a focus.
do you, like who are you, whatdo you want to do?
What do you believe in and whatdo you want this company and
(42:23):
this thing to look like?
And do you have a vision forthat?
and is that the more clear itis, the more real it is.
So whether that is like writingit down.
Or whether that is drawing apicture or whatever the thing is
that helps make that clear foryou.
I think that's really helpful.
because you are, I mean, goingback to the sanctification
(42:47):
thing, you are not gonna want todo it.
So you gotta really believe init to persevere through all of
this different difficult,sanctifying things for hiring
and firing and like spendingmoney and taking risks and like
all the things that go intobuilding a business and being
(43:07):
like, you know, a bunch of mypeople who are my friends work
for me.
And there's an element wherelike, I don't have any friends
because a lot of my friends workfor me.
And then not, not, you know,like just fundamentally my
relationship with peoplechanges.
And then it's like, I godowntown and I walk.
I mean, we live in a small town.
I walk down Main Street and it'slike.
(43:29):
well, that person used to workfor me.
That person got fired.
That person, you know, it'slike, it's just a weird
dynamics.
And if you lived in a biggertown, you probably wouldn't have
those same dynamics, but it'sjust weird, right?
And so, like, what do youbelieve in?
Because you better reallybelieve in it because there's
gonna be so many distractionsand so much pressure from other
places that it's gonna be reallyeasy to be lost and you're gonna
(43:50):
be tempted to not make the harddecisions.
and ultimately I think that'svery analogous to like your
faith, right?
What do you believe in?
Because the world is gonna tellyou that you're wrong and
they're gonna make it reallycomfortable for you to basically
be complacent in your sin,right?
And that's just that, that's howthat works.
And so if you want to grow, youwant to drive, you gotta really
(44:11):
believe in something.
And then, so like that, I thinkthat's really important.
But then there's a real level ofhumility that has to go along
with that.
So you gotta be totally all in,bought in and almost be
uncomfortably confident andarrogant about what you believe
in.
But then that has to be built ona foundation of humility
Jason (44:30):
Yeah.
Jeff (44:31):
And when you make mistakes, you're willing to
learn from those mistakes andmake it better.
Jason (44:36):
Yep.
Jeff (44:36):
then you're willing to like, like do you have these
principled things that youbelieve in, that the principles.
The thing that keep driving youto that vision, but your
humility and your willingness toacknowledge the fact that you're
a sinner.
That you're not perfect, thatyou tried something, that you
spent$5,000 on this thing and itfailed, or you spent$50,000 on
(44:59):
this other thing and it failed.
And that's okay because that isall the sanctification process.
Right.
And so do you have that humilitythat then supports that vision
that you're able to keep drivingand keep growing, keep moving
towards that thing?
yeah, I think those are like thefocus and the humility.
and then as the leader, you haveto own it all.
(45:21):
You, you, you don't just get toown the win, you have to own the
losses.
Right.
Jason (45:26):
yeah.
Jeff (45:26):
Yeah.
I mean, like everyone's looking,and everyone's temptation is to
want to own the win, but reallyyou kind of have to deflect the.
Right.
The win is for everybody.
The loss is for you.
Jason (45:37):
It's all
Jeff (45:37):
And so are you willing to take, and again, that would be
analogous to Christ, right?
He owned all of our losses,
Jason (45:45):
Yeah, he did and gave us all his righteousness.
Jeff (45:47):
You gotta own it all.
You can't own parts of it.
You can't deflect it.
you gotta own it all.
And sometimes owning it, ifyou've delegated responsibility,
means holding someoneaccountable to the small part
that they owned.
And it might mean doing the hardthing of having a hard
conversation or even lettingthat person go, right?
But own.
if that person isn't a good fitand they need to be let go, and
(46:10):
you don't do that, you're notowning it.
Right?
and so like, I think the, likehaving that principled thing
that you believe in, having thehumility to work through it and
make the mistakes, and thentruly owning the entirety of it,
I think when I think aboutleadership, I think about that.
That is where real leadershiphappens.
Jason (46:29):
Sometimes people talk about vision and strategy and
it's like this big, amorphous,whatever, smokey.
I don't know, soft thing.
But what I hear you saying,Jeff, which is absolutely true,
and it's a good reminder, isthat as leaders we have to have
a vision and a clear picture ofwhere we're trying to go.
That's really what that is,right?
This vision is, I have a guyidea of what I want this
(46:50):
business to be.
Or it could be, you know what,you might be a department head.
Like, what I want my team, whatI want it to look like, what
does good look like to me?
And then every day getting upsaying, we're gonna, today,
we're gonna take another stepcloser to that vision, knowing
we're gonna stumble.
I love that.
Absolutely.
The ownership and the humilityis saying, we're gonna try,
(47:11):
we're gonna drive hard towardsthis vision, we will fail.
and saying, you know, as aleader, I'll take ownership of
those failures we make.
we're gonna go there togetherthough, so that's awesome.
Who do you, Jeff, who do youlike to read or listen to or
follow that keeps you sharp as aleader?
Jeff (47:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it's great that you'redoing this podcast.
'cause one of the things that isa struggle for me is, having
real legit Christians that aredoing real things
Jason (47:40):
Yeah.
Jeff (47:41):
to learn from.
most of the people who arepopular in the business
leadership space, aren'tChristians, or if they are, they
are like inclined towards beinglike prosperity gospel type
Christians, it doesn't mean youcan't learn great things from
all of those different people,but it is, a struggle, It's a
(48:03):
struggle to find like people whothink about their faith
similarly to how I think aboutmy faith and the impact that I
wanted to have on my life andthe business that I'm running.
the consequence for Christianbusiness owners is there's a lot
of Christian business ownersthat are basically just doing
what the world does and theirbusiness is.
(48:24):
There's, there's what they do atchurch.
Then there's the rest of theirlife or there's what they do at
church.
Like a lot of people get to thepoint'cause there's lots of
information about there, there'swhat they do at church, there's
what I do with raising my kids.
There's what I do with, and Ithink about politics and there's
that whole world and myChristian worldview affects
that, but does it really affecthow they run their business?
(48:44):
Because there's not a lot ofpeople really talking about
that.
And that ends up being achallenge.
So unfortunately, most of thepeople on my list of like people
that I interact with and booksthat I read are not Christians.
Or if they are, it's not reallyfrom a substantive Christian
perspective.
So like one of the books that Iappreciate a lot is Extreme
(49:04):
Ownership by Jocko Willink.
I think Good to Great, is likeclassic, leadership, business
entrepreneurship book again.
That is a great book.
another one, five Dysfunctionsof the Team.
So again, that is a great bookabout understanding leadership
and about understanding, all ofthe terrible things you could do
as a leader, and then likepractical thing about how to fix
(49:25):
'em.
another book, the E-MythRevisited.
Jason (49:28):
Oh, man, you're the first person that's ever mentioned
that, and I read that.
I read that when I did anexecutive MBA, and we read that
and that was a, especially forentrepreneurs, that was a super
impactful book.
Jeff (49:40):
Yep.
So like one of the earlier,like, I think it was written in
the early eighties and one ofthe earlier like true
entrepreneur books, like the eis the Entrepreneur Myth.
Right?
and a lot of people havebasically modernized the same,
the same themes and principlesfrom that Michael Gerber did in
that book.
Right.
Which is great.
(50:00):
So that is for sure afoundational book was very
eyeopening for me.
The first time I was like, oh,this is me.
Oh, this is me, this is me, thisis me.
Right.
totally.
helpful.
Jason (50:10):
I think if you're an entrepreneur, I'll say that for
those listening, if you are orwant to be an entrepreneur,
E-Myth Revisited is a must read.
It's a really good book.
Jeff (50:19):
so just from a practical standpoint, like Dan Martel and
Buyback Your Time has beenreally helpful for me as a like
CEO ish leader type person.
Pushing me to examine what am Idoing with my life and where am
I really going.
things that are super helpful,like slightly outside of the
leadership space, I would saywould be the goal by Elijah
(50:41):
Gold.
Right.
Jason (50:42):
Yep,
Jeff (50:42):
Right.
so I think again, you have likeJewish physicist guy writing a
book about manufacturing, butreally it's a book about all of
life and really it makes sensebecause he understands the world
that God made better than mostof us as Christians.
Right.
And so just super weird bookbecause it's like this didactic
(51:03):
novel, but also a really funread.
I would say for us, that's kindof our bible here at Tenor, as
we follow the theory,
Jason (51:10):
theory of
Jeff (51:10):
theory of constraints.
Yep.
and so like I've read thatprobably six or eight times.
and so I think that's a reallygood book, and I think the
principles of it can apply toany business, not just a
manufacturing business.
So whether you are a servicebusiness, consulting business,
like definitely worth a read totry to understand.
the theory of constraints andwhat is throughput It's like the
(51:31):
more you study it and read aboutit and think about it, the more
you understand the significanceof what throughput is and what
it means.
so that was a really good book.
another really good book that Ithink for any, on the finance
world, and I think the goal kindof helped me push me that
direction is like, I generallydon't.
Appreciate most of the financeworld and how we are supposed to
(51:53):
manage money and do thosethings.
I have some pretty crazy viewsabout that.
and so a book that to me made alot of sense and it was
basically how we manage ourfinances is a book called Profit
First, which is kind of a DaveRamsey ish, basically a very
practical way for a business tomanage their money.
And so if any of the listenersout there are struggling with
(52:15):
how to manage your money, profitFirst is a great.
Business and it basically isanother layer of money
management system kind of beforeyour p and l, before your
balance sheet, before yourstatement of cash flow, and
really shines a light on things.
And I know people who've done itand they're like, I wouldn't
have seen this problem formonths if I was just looking at
(52:36):
my p and l.
the fact that I manage my moneythrough this profit first system
would see problems earlier andfix things faster.
and it's just a super practicalapproach.
and it basically, you know, Ithink the average business in
America, probably does 500,000to a million dollars a year in
revenue, maybe has half amillion dollars in business
debt.
(52:57):
which is like, that's a fairamount of revenue, but the owner
of that company probably makes75 to a hundred grand a year.
And is just slaving away, right?
And then every few years maybegets a distribution where they
can pay themselves an extra 50,60, 70$5,000 and they're like,
oh wow, this is great.
We made more money this year.
(53:17):
Right?
And there's this constanthamster wheel that is spinning
and they can't get out of it.
And Profit First is kind of thefix for that, is to understand,
for me, I started it earlyenough that it didn't cause
significant changes in how wedid the bus, how we ran the
business.
It basically has guided howwe've managed our money, which
has been great.
but for a business that was amore mature business that tried
(53:39):
to implement it, it'd probablybe really, really hard to
implement it, but I think is agreat book.
I recommended it to severalfriends and I know people who
have implemented it and it'sreally helped their business.
Jason (53:50):
I've never heard of that one, so I'll definitely, link'em
all in the show notes so peoplecan click and check'em out on
Amazon, so I appreciate thatrecommendation.
Jeff (53:56):
then, probably two books that I really, that I think just
from a, not so much as abusiness owner, but, or
entrepreneur, but certainlyapplicable to that.
And really, but I thinkapplicable to anybody who's a
Christian that is trying toembrace their sanctification and
make improvement in their life.
So one would be a book calledProductivity, which is by Doug
(54:18):
Wilson, which is basically amore of like a worldview book
about how to think about how todo things in the world and how
to think about stuff.
So how do you think abouttechnology?
How do you think about,accomplishing things like what's
the right frame of reference?
So it's basically like Proverbscontextual to the modern mind.
(54:38):
combine that with a book calledWith Winning in Mind.
Which is by Lanny Basham.
Lanny Basham was a, Olympic goldmedalist in the seventies and he
wrote a book called With Winningin Mind, which is about mental
management and how to thinkabout improvement.
And that a system of managing,like most people's problem is
how they think about the world.
(54:59):
their obstacle to performance ishow they think about things.
basically to implement it ishard'cause it's not just a read,
it's a study and a bunch ofdoing.
if you take the foundation ofhow to think about the world
from productivity, you couldpair that with winning in mind.
And I think basically you coulddo anything you want.
and so somebody who is lookingto make changes in their life
(55:21):
from a Christian Biblicalperspective, I think those two
books together are prettypowerful.
Jason (55:26):
Awesome.
Good.
Now those are goodrecommendations, some I've never
heard of, and a couple of'emthat are super classic, so
that's good.
Well, good man.
How could people, Jeff, if theywanted to connect with you,
what's the best way to do that?
To reach out
Jeff (55:38):
to connect with me.
I'm probably, as far as likesocial media platforms, I'm
probably most active on likeInstagram.
Like I have LinkedIn andFacebook, but probably most
active on Instagram.
you know, Tencor, like we have apretty active Instagram at, at
Tencor usa and then also onYouTube, most of our stuff is
like training, shootingperformance, content focused.
Jason (56:00):
How do you spell?
we will, put a link to the 10 ofcourse, website, but how do you,
how do you spell the Nu name?
Jeff (56:05):
Tencor is T-E-N-I-C-O-R.
Jason (56:09):
Okay.
Jeff (56:09):
And a core.
Jason (56:10):
Well, so you have a YouTube, the company has a
YouTube channel too, to showsome of the products.
Obviously website, you said youcan go there and check out, and
buy stuff from there.
Well, hey, brother, thank youfor your time.
I know you're super busy.
it's been an absolute joyhearing, what God's done in your
life, what he is doing.
the background of the, both thelaw enforcement and
entrepreneur.
I have so much respect forpeople who went out and taking
(56:31):
the plunge and have done theirown thing.
So thank you
Jeff (56:33):
Thanks for having me.
This is great.
Jason (56:35):
All right, man.
Appreciate it, And thank you allfor joining me again this month
to hear from anotherfaith-driven leader.
Be sure to subscribe and likethe podcast to help others find
us.
I hope you'll be back next monthas we help each other and all of
our journeys towards honoringChrist and our work as leaders.
I.
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