August 1, 2024 • 54 mins
In this episode of the Biblical Leadership at Work podcast, host Jason Woodard talks with Darren Shearer, an entrepreneur, Air Force veteran, and author. They discuss how Shearer's military experience matured him spiritually and led to his career in book publishing. Topics include the role of Christians in shaping workplace culture, the importance of leadership development and mentoring, and integrating Christian principles in business. Shearer also shares his personal background, transition from military to civilian life, and insights from his book 'The Christ-Centered Company'.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 4 (00:00):
Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work
podcast.
I am your host, Jason Woodard.
On today's show, we will meetDarren Shearer.
Darren is an entrepreneur, AirForce veteran, author, host
himself.
Darren and I discuss how Godused his time in the military to
mature him spiritually andultimately lead him to become an
(00:22):
author and start his own bookpublishing company.
We discuss how Christians canand should be shaping culture in
their workplaces.
Darren (00:30):
And so when we are reflecting Christ in our work,
we're reflecting the glory ofGod.
and that is more than justtaking somebody through a gospel
track, but it's now shapingculture.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
We also discussed the importance of leaders developing
their teams and becomingcomfortable with not being the
one getting all of the glory.
Darren (00:52):
there is certainly a important role that I have in
the places where God puts me,but that role is not to get the
glory and to get the credit.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Darren also speaks to the importance of having a
mentor and the hesitation wesometimes have at taking that
first step.
Darren (01:10):
and like actively invite them to speak into the
situations that you're dealingwith.
the temptation is gonna be tofeel like, Oh well, if I make it
seem like I don't have it alltogether, then they're not going
to respect me.
And that's you know, that's alie.
Jason (01:29):
All right.
Darren Shearer, brother, thankyou for being on the podcast
today, man.
I look forward to getting toknow you and sharing what you
have for us with the audience.
Darren (01:38):
Same here, Jason.
Thanks for having me.
Jason (01:40):
tell us a little bit about your background, brother.
what's your educationbackground, what's your, work
experience and then up to wherethe Lord has you now.
Darren (01:47):
I could go back, quite a ways.
so I came into the militaryprior to that.
I was a rebellious son of apreacher man and which is
running from God.
doing the high school sportsand, trying to fit in and be
cool and all of that.
And, my life just hit a pit ofdepression and purposelessness
(02:09):
is really what it came down to.
I just was questioning what islife for?
is there, there's gotta besomething more for me.
And then 9, 11 happened, 2001, Iwas a sophomore in college.
And on that morning, when I sawwhat had happened to our
country, I went to thecommandant of cadets office at
our ROTC department at ourcollege.
(02:31):
and said, sir, I'd like to jointhe military.
And they, began to ask me aboutmy credentials and, achievements
and things like that.
And I really had very little.
going for me at that time.
But Hey, the Lord used thatbecause the Air Force needed
people at that time, neededofficers and because we were
(02:55):
going to war.
And so the Lord just gave me alot of favor to be able to come
into the military.
and he began to use the militaryto disciple me.
As a follower of Christ and tojust, and give me a sense of
purpose, which initially wasjust, I think just patriotism,
but because I was surrounded byjust a lot of really quality
(03:17):
Christian people, Christianleaders, began to see myself as
a leader for the first time.
I'd been a team captain and thatsort of thing, but I had not
been.
really walking out, living alife that I could say, wow, that
kid's a natural born leader.
Like people wouldn't have saidthat about me at that time.
(03:38):
but the air force really helpedto awaken a lot of that in me.
So that's, that was the startingpoint in my
Jason (03:45):
So you were in college at the time still, what year
college.
Darren (03:49):
Yeah, I was a sophomore.
I was a sophomore in college soit was one of the only, there
was only two.
ROTC programs that were two yearprograms in the entire country.
And I just happened to be atone.
I mean, I basically, it wasCharleston Southern
Jason (04:04):
Okay.
All right.
Darren (04:05):
And so a lot of the cadets that I was in ROTC with
were prior enlisted folks thatcame from Charleston air force
base.
And so they weren't just, likeme, like young, just trying to
figure out what we're doing inlife.
Like these were like seasons.
veterans that I was nowsurrounded with.
And several of those were keypeople who were Christians that
(04:29):
really helped me to discoverthat God had more for my life
than just what I wasexperiencing.
So that was How am I?
I would say how my career gotstarted.
Jason (04:40):
So you graduate college, and you're an officer now in the
air force.
Darren (04:45):
That's right.
Yeah.
So I commissioned as a secondlieutenant and then my duty
station was Barksdale Air ForceBase, home of the B 52 in
Northwest Louisiana.
And I was there for four yearsand spent about six months in
Kuwait.
doing logistics.
And when I was there, I wasresponsible for coordinating the
(05:07):
freight forwarding or the cargomovements of all of the air
forces cargo that was coming inby ship into the Middle East.
And so I would decide if that'sgoing to go up on a convoy, or
it's going to be airlifted insome cases, put her on another
smaller boat and going down toQatar, for example.
(05:30):
And, so that was my role therefor four years and it was a lot
of
Jason (05:34):
Yeah.
Learn a lot.
Thank you for your service,brother.
Darren (05:37):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Jason (05:39):
So after the military now, you're an entrepreneur now
and we're not there yet.
I'm excited to learn about that.
But so talk to us about how youtransitioned from military life
to civilian life and what theLord.
Led you through there.
Darren (05:52):
Yeah.
since we're talking aboutbiblical leadership, there's
another, key part of my journey.
When I was in the air force, Iwas I still had the mindset that
ministry is something thathappens in a church type
program.
cause that was what was modeledfor me growing up with my dad
being a pastor working in achurch.
(06:13):
And I'll never forget, I wasleaving the base.
one particular day to go do somevolunteer work through my local
church.
And I was doing a lot ofdifferent, I'm as a young,
single guy, no kids, I was justvolunteering all over the place.
but the Lord just really hit meupside the head with this.
Revelation, when I was leavingthe base this day, and he said,
(06:35):
this base is your ministry.
that was a real paradigm shiftfor me because now my
orientation for ministry was notministry is something that
happens somewhere that I'm notcurrently, and I just need to
get that I can do ministry.
or, some people feel like I gotto go to seminary and I got to
go work in a church or be amissionary and live in a mud hut
(07:00):
or all of that.
And the Lord just broke me outof that and clarified that
there's so many people on thisair force and God was
surrounding me with them all thetime.
people that just needed Jesusthere on the base.
and so that was a real shift forme.
But when I did get out of theair force, after coming back
(07:22):
from Kuwait, I did sense theLord wanted me to go to
seminary, not to go plant achurch or do, conventional,
church type, of a ministry, butbecause I knew that the Lord
wanted me to have a biblicalfoundation for what, you He part
of, at least part of what me,what he wanted me to do, which
was to really dive intodiscovering what does the Bible
(07:48):
say about business?
What is God's will for business?
and then I went to businessschool after that.
And since then I've really beentrying to blend the two.
And, the Bible says you can'tserve both God and money.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
the great commission is to.
Make disciples.
Where's that going to happen?
(08:09):
It's got to happen where youspend most of your waking hours,
which is for most of us in a forprofit company.
Jason (08:15):
and I would even say, Darren, I don't know if you know
Jordan Rayner.
Are you familiar
Darren (08:19):
Yeah, actually, I just interviewed him like a week
Jason (08:22):
yeah, so we run in the same circles, right?
I love what Jordan says aboutthe first commission.
What was our first commission?
And if we do that, well.
it equips us to better do thegreat commission and the great
commission is the greatcommission for sure.
I love where the conversation'sgoing in regards to that because
it is so important.
And as we go into ourworkplaces, wherever that be,
(08:45):
military base, as I sharedbefore we hit record, I have
spent 30 years in manufacturingand going into plants and being
able to do my work withexcellence in a way that
glorifies the Lord.
And there's inherent value inthe work and be that light and
that salt in the workplace andhave those opportunities, not
(09:06):
all the time, but have thoseopportunities to actually share
the gospel, invite, people tocome out to church and hear the
gospel and, but until we're,until we got the work part down,
we're not being obedient to theLord.
the thing that I'm very excitedabout with the, I'll call it
the, this movement.
that you're very involved in isthat we're trying to break that
(09:28):
paradigm of ministry onlyhappens in the church and the
missions field.
And those are wonderful,beautiful places where God's
kingdoms advanced, but ministryshould be happening everywhere,
including in our workplaces.
And God uses that to glorifyhimself through whatever the
(09:49):
work is.
it, it demonstrates hischaracteristics, whether it's
creative work, restorative work,it's all part of who he is and
that first commission that hegave us to go be fruitful and
multiply and subdue the earth.
Darren (10:02):
yeah, and I really, yeah, I really see the Great
Commission as, not that theseare two separate commissions,
but that the, what we refer toas the Great Commission in
Matthew 28 is really a reframedversion of the First Commission
or some call it the culturalmandate or the creation mandate.
(10:24):
it's as if, God is saying, okay,we've seen how you, we've seen
how you do ruling and subduingthe earth apart from me, just
feeding on the wrong tree now.
Now if you're really gonna dothat, the way you do that is by
following me, and becoming likeme.
(10:45):
and so that's the idea ofdiscipleship.
But the problem is that we'vereduced disciple making down to,
that's when you get, you takepeople through a gospel tract
and we reduce disciple makingdown to.
Taking somebody through a littlequick, tiny gospel tract, and
(11:05):
there's a lot of power andthere's, that's the gospel
message is very simple and insome ways can be reduced to just
the simplicity of that message.
But for it to really take holdin our lives for us to really
bear fruit, this is a, a timeconsuming process.
And the only way you're going tobe a disciple is by committing
(11:28):
to a process, which is not justa one and done.
you're following him every day.
and, it says in Hebrews that Thesun is the exact representation
of God's glory.
And so when we are reflectingChrist in our work, we're
reflecting the glory.
(11:48):
of God.
and that again, is more thanjust taking somebody through a
gospel track, but it's seeingit's now shaping culture.
It's shaping corporate culture.
And I think that's where Ireally focus a lot of my energy
and thinking is how do we dothat on a company level because
(12:12):
that's where people are going tobe at least for adults, working
adults, the primary place wherethey're going to be shaped, as
disciples of Christ, where theirspiritual formation is going to
happen one way or another.
if they're going to conform tothe pattern of this world, or
they're going to become morelike Christ, it's that
(12:33):
battleground is in the workplaceand the culture of that
organization is either.
making disciples of Christ ormaking disciples of, the spirit
of the age, the, any, anything,any other godless value system.
And so that's an opportunity wehave as Christian leaders is to
(12:55):
shape the culture because theculture I really believe is what
the Holy Spirit, and frankly,against the Holy Spirit, other
spirits working throughcultures, to get people to think
and act in certain ways andconsider those ways as right.
this is just the right way to,to think about, social issues
(13:19):
and, how to treat people andwhat the value systems ought to
be and all of
Jason (13:25):
one of the definitions.
I've heard of culture that Ireally like.
I'm a very practical guy, right?
so sometimes these terms arelike Can be very academic One of
the one of the definitions Iheard was that it's essentially
the behaviors it's the amount ofbehaviors that are accepted in
an organization.
It forms your culture, right?
So what's tolerated within theorganization, what's expected.
(13:45):
And it starts with leaders.
And what if you go into anorganization, that culture is
what's expected, at a positivelevel.
And what's tolerated at a notpositive, right?
what's the minimum standard ifso you're right now talking to
people that are business leadersin all kinds of industries at
(14:06):
different phases of theircareer.
They have different sized teamsthat they're responsible for.
In some cases, people thataren't in management or
supervision that haveaspirations maybe to be, or just
want to learn.
Darren, how would you giveadvice to people who work in
various fields and careers andhow do they help mold the
(14:27):
culture in their workplace?
In a way that is more in linewith biblical principles because
they're not necessarily, thisis, let's say quote unquote
secular work, right?
So they're not necessarilycoming and having Bible studies
every day.
Maybe they are, that'd be great,but they can come and form
policies, procedures, and form aculture that's aligned with
(14:50):
biblical principles.
What are some practical ways orsome ways that you would,
challenge them and advise themon doing that.
Darren (14:56):
I have a whole book on this, titled the Christ centered
company.
Okay.
And in that book, I talk about37 biblical business habits and
I, the way I understand culture,nuance from what you were
saying.
And I think your definition isright as well, is, the culture
are the defining habits of agroup of people.
(15:19):
And so what are the defininghabits of your organization
today?
And in your, or let's say justyour department and the way
that, for example, how youhandle conflict, what is the
prevailing value system asexpressed through the default
habits of the people?
(15:41):
and so as a leader, and I'lljust, I'll share one of the
habits, which is really thebedrock habit.
And.
it's a bit difficult toquantify.
cause it's really more of amindset.
Whereas a lot of the otherhabits in the book are more like
practical.
like you can really measure it.
(16:01):
But this particular one isrecognize Jesus is on the
receiving end of every actionthat's taken in your company.
So now Jesus is no longer justthe one who is high and lifted
up and the chairman of the boardand looking down on the
(16:22):
organization.
But he's also your entry levelemployee that you just hired.
He's also that intern.
He's also your customer.
And every action that we take inrelation to those people, Jesus
is on the receiving end.
And it says, that's what it saysin Colossians 3:23-24 whatever
(16:45):
you do work at it with all yourheart as working for the Lord.
So this isn't just, that theLord is your boss, which he is,
he is the King, but sometimes wecan just convince ourselves
that, I'm relating to God in oneway and I'm relating to this
(17:05):
person I don't like or thisperson I look down on in a
different way.
and Jesus says, if you've doneit for them, you've done it for
me.
If you haven't done it for them,you haven't done it for
Jason (17:16):
It's having that, it's having that proper perspective
that they are created in God'simage.
Darren (17:21):
yeah, exactly.
Jason (17:23):
and we have to take that approach.
And I like what you said aboutthose that work on your team for
you, customers, colleagues,suppliers.
Treating them all in that wayand with biblical love, right?
Which is honesty, transparency,kindness, grace, remembering
(17:44):
that God treated us kindly andwith love when we were still his
enemies.
Yeah.
And I, one of the, the we knowscripture is clear that if we're
not to forgive others, we won'tbe forgiven.
And so being forgiving andshowing grace to those because
that's hard at the workplacesometimes, and so one of the
(18:04):
things I always Remember quicklyby the grace of God As I've been
forgiven for far more than Iwill ever have to forgive anyone
else of so again You knowinteracting with people with
that mindset in a way that's youknow When there is conflict in a
way that shows grace and loveand patience You Truth.
there's still, you have to comeat it full of truth
Darren (18:26):
Yeah,
Jason (18:27):
and grace.
Everything.
Darren (18:33):
between a company that is Christ centered and one that
is not or a leader who is Christcentered and one who is not is
can be really boiled down to oneword and that's worship.
I think to the Elijah and theprophets of Baal, where there
(18:53):
was a challenge where the,between the prophets of bailed
are going to do it their way andget, try to get their God to
answer by fire.
And Elijah would do it his wayand invite his God to answer by
fire.
And of course, ultimately,Jehovah ignites Elijah's, altar
(19:13):
that was doused in water.
And, they hack up the prophetsof Baal and, it's just a wild
story.
But I just believe that Godwants to, I think about that as
a kind of a analogy for Christcentered companies and those
that are not where it's going tolook different.
(19:35):
It's going to, it might lookcounterintuitive to the outside
world that you're going to,prefer others above yourself,
for example, as a value of aChrist centered leader.
but God is going to ignite that,like God is going to honor that.
and it might not be impressiveto the outside world, but
(19:56):
fundamentally, that.
what you're doing is an act ofworship for God.
And so when Jesus is on thereceiving end of everything
that's done in the business, nowyour business and your role
there becomes an altar ofworship, instead of, and the
alternative is going to be anidol.
and when we hold on to theinfluence and the things that
(20:20):
got in trust to us in theworkplace and get our identities
wrapped up in that it becomes anidol.
And when it's an idol instead ofan altar, there's no worship.
There's just, there's a very,Yeah, it's self worship.
There's a lot of just insecurityand anxiety and it's not
(20:42):
advancing, it's certainly notcarrying out the Great
Commission because it's notrevealing God's glory, it's not
revealing the person of Jesus.
Even if you take, a coupleminutes each week to go,
evangelize at the water cooler.
Like the mission has been just,
Jason (21:01):
Eroded.
It's just, yeah.
Darren (21:03):
yeah.
Eroded.
Yeah.
Jason (21:05):
So Darren, right now you are leading a company that you
founded.
Tell us a little bit about whatyou're doing right now, the name
of your company and what's your,what's your role is there and
Darren (21:16):
Yeah.
they would ask me in undergrad,what are you going to do with
that English degree?
Because I was an English majorand I didn't know.
it's that frustrating questionthat every college student gets
asked, what are you going to dowith that degree?
And I finally realized, that Iwould just say, what am I not
going to do with the Englishdegree in an English speaking
(21:36):
country?
so that was my little comebackthere, but I never really
understood how much God wasgoing to use that later on.
because the company that I endedup starting was a book
publishing company and I taught,academic writing when I was in
grad school as just a littleside hustle there in our
university writing center whileI was doing my studies and these
(22:02):
doctoral students, mostlyEnglish as a second language
doctoral students would come tome in the writing center and ask
if I would, edit theirdissertations.
and so there's a little market.
On a university for, editingdoctoral dissertations,
especially when you've got a lotof international students that
need, extra help with that.
(22:23):
And so that's how I cut my teethin the, for profit publishing
world.
And it wasn't long after that,that I published my first book
about, let's see, 14 years ago.
And that the title of that bookwas in you God trusts.
And based on the premise thatGod doesn't just love us, but he
(22:43):
trusts us and has entrusted,some things to us, really
everything we have.
because God has entrusted
Jason (22:51):
We're stewards.
We're stewards of all of it.
Darren (22:53):
yeah, you don't entrust something to somebody that you
don't trust, is what it boilsdown to for me.
And first Corinthians 13, sevensays love, always trust.
Anyways, so that's that book, ina nutshell.
and so I was in business schoolin New York city and this was in
(23:14):
like 2009, 2010 when, all thenew social media companies were
coming online and just, it waslike, we're the Facebook of this
and we're the Expedia of that.
And that was all the rage when Iwas in business school.
And it left me feeling like, Ohgosh, if I don't start a tech
(23:38):
company like this, then, my typeof business doesn't really
matter.
And so I ended up spinning mywheels, threw away some money on
trying to get something started.
And in the end, the Lord justspoke to me.
like you spoke to Moses,although it wasn't at a burning
(24:00):
bush.
and just said, what's that inyour hand.
and of course Moses throws downhis staff.
And for me, as it related to mycareer, what I had in my hand
was, I have some experiencedoing proofreading.
I have some experience, and Ihad logistics experience, but I
didn't really sense God wascalling me to go do it.
back into the industrial worldand manufacturing and all of
(24:23):
that.
I knew that there was somethingto do with teaching and, books
on some level.
And so he just said to go aheadand start this publishing
company in a neighborhood.
I was living in at the time inupper Manhattan's called
Washington Heights.
And there's a bridge called thehigh bridge that connects the
Bronx to Manhattan.
(24:43):
And it was the oldest bridge inall of New York city and is
built as an aqueduct to bringwater into the city.
And the Lord gave me this visionthat our company, which is named
high bridge books, would be likean aqueduct to bring life giving
stories and messages to people.
And fast forward, 10 years afterwe started that company now, I
(25:03):
think we've got over 205 booksunder contract and I've written
a handful of those.
and that's, that's the sandboxthat I get to play in is helping
Christian authors get theirmessage out, which
Jason (25:17):
No.
And is it run a broad spectrumof topics that you guys publish?
it's all, it's Christian authorsaround whatever.
Okay.
Darren (25:26):
Yeah.
CS Lewis said we don't need moreChristian books.
We need more books written byChristians.
So I like that.
philosophy.
And, while we do publish a lotof Christian books that are
Christian living books,devotionals, things of that
nature.
we do publish industry specificbooks.
(25:46):
like we've got one, one bookthat is like the quintessential
book.
If you were running a, oilchange operation.
we've got a set of books if youwere managing dental offices.
And so I just love that.
Yeah, that we can speak into andthat our authors are bringing
(26:07):
their Christian worldview intothese, particular, areas,
instead of everybody having towrite the same kind of Christian
living book, that's already beenwritten.
but then, we have a lot ofauthors that are sharing their
story of what God has broughtthem through.
we have one particular authorwho is, ESPN sideline reporter,
(26:31):
her book's getting ready to comeout.
lost both of her parents toprescription drug addiction,
fentanyl overdoses within 24hours.
When she was a gymnast atRutgers as just a freshman in
college, it loses both of herparents to, an addiction.
She didn't even know they hadand that nobody knew.
Jason (26:48):
Kept it hidden.
Darren (26:49):
And, she's on fire for God.
just, loves the Lord you look ather, you hear her and you're
like, there's no way you've beenthrough something like this.
but it's just, the power ofGod's redemption.
And, so yeah, we published bookson a wide range of topics.
Jason (27:08):
talk a little bit about your, theology of business
institute.
So you've got two things goright.
You're involved in both leadingat both of those organizations.
What's that all about?
Darren (27:18):
As I mentioned a little earlier in the interview, I went
to seminary and then I went tobusiness school and, I really
sense a calling to bring a blendof the two to where we're not
just teaching business apartfrom a Christian worldview.
and because that's where 85percent of Christian workforce
(27:40):
in the United States spends mostof their waking hours.
So if the church is not engagingbusiness, then we're not
carrying out the mission.
Like we're just, we'recompletely missing it.
If we're just waiting for peopleto show up on Sundays so that we
can get them to volunteer in ourchurch and, try to help them in
(28:00):
a couple of areas.
if they're not around people whoare living a Christian
lifestyle, modeling a Christianlifestyle all throughout the
week, then they're missing it.
and the church really is missingit.
And so I just really feltpassionate to, just really speak
into this area.
And so the mission is todiscover and apply God's will
(28:25):
for business.
and so that's not just like, howdo take somebody through the
Roman's road
Jason (28:30):
at
Darren (28:31):
work.
but how do you model the waysand the will of God in marketing
and accounting and riskmanagement and all the different
facets of business?
Jason (28:42):
if somebody is again a business leader, let's say they
have Fairly high levelresponsibilities at a company
and they want to think moreclearly about that Go to the
website check it out.
do you do training as yourbooks?
Like how do you?
You Engage with people that areinterested in growing in that
way.
Cause I would encourage it.
I'm, I want to as a leader andI'm sure many people that listen
(29:05):
to this want to grow in thatway.
So
Darren (29:07):
at the risk of sounding self serving, I would definitely
recommend people get the book,The Christ
Jason (29:12):
yeah.
Oh no, that's why we're talking,man.
It's like
Darren (29:14):
yeah.
and it, and there is a, anassessment that goes along with
that people can take for free attheologyofbusiness.
com.
but the book is going to helpwhen you go through all of the
items in the assessment, you'regoing to, you're going to self
assess and in the differentareas of these 37 habits and
(29:35):
self assess, not just yourself,but your more so your company,
corporately, because again, Ireally feel strongly that the
way disciples are made is notjust through the influence of
any one person, but thecollective influence of a lot of
people.
Otherwise known as culture and,culture is not just cultural
(30:00):
artifacts like, the songs thatwe write and the, or even the
products that we produce or theservices that we render.
All of those things.
are birthed out of the culture,but the culture is what will
remain.
So people are going to come andgo from your company.
That culture is what willremain.
(30:22):
but as individuals, we get toinfluence the culture.
and so people can take thatassessment.
and then the areas where, a lotof what we've seen is they take
the assessment.
They know they need help.
like there's one particular,gentleman who runs a pool
cleaning company down in Floridaand, his wife got him the book
(30:45):
for Christmas and he justdevoured it and immediately
started implementing the habitsAnd he reached out and said, he
wanted help going through theassessment.
He then hopped into a group thatwe have going on for business
leaders that are really seriousabout.
Implementing these habits intheir business because each of
(31:06):
the 37 habits is not just, agood to implement habit.
There's biblical precedent, abiblical foundation taught for
each one of the habits becausethe way I'm wired, I need to
know the why behind what I'mdoing.
like if this is just, some nonChristian consultants advice,
(31:27):
yeah, I might use it, but I'mnot going to have the, level of
commitment to it that I wouldhave if I knew that there was a
scriptural foundation for it.
Jason (31:38):
Yup.
Darren (31:39):
And I think a lot of us are wired that way as well.
So I'd encourage people to gotake that assessment, get the
book.
If you want some more in depthhelp, we can go one on one and
you can also hop into one ofour, one of our
Jason (31:55):
You have some groups.
That's great.
Oh, I love that.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna check itout.
You and, I, you and I just meton this.
So this is new to me as well asmy audience, I'm guessing.
So that's super exciting.
Hey, a couple of questions, backon a personal note for you,
Darren, tell us a little bitabout your family, married kids,
what's your situation there?
Darren (32:14):
I'm married.
we've been married 11 years.
actually it'll be 12 years inMay and we've got three boys,
10, eight and five and yeah,we're having a lot of fun.
I get to work from home and havebeen working from home for the
last, ever since we got married.
and yeah, we live in WesternNorth Carolina, a town called
(32:37):
Wayne, Waynesville about 30minutes West of Asheville.
Jason (32:41):
Asheville.
That's a great area.
Darren (32:43):
yeah, I can hear, hopefully y'all can't hear this,
but I can hear.
My, my 10 year old over thereplaying Star Wars on the piano.
Jason (32:51):
I can't, I
Darren (32:52):
he's just gotten really into piano and music here
lately.
So that's a lot of
Jason (32:57):
That is a lot of fun when you start to see your kids pick
up something and get passionateabout it.
When you said three boys, one ofmy very favorite shows of all
time was a tool time or homeimprovement, whatever, you get
them mixed up.
So when you say three boys,that's instantly what I think
about your house, your poorwife.
She must be a, the Lord mustthink, I know she has a lot of
patients.
Darren (33:18):
Yeah.
At first I thought you weregoing to say my three sons, but
I'm like, I know you're not
Jason (33:23):
no, I'm not that old.
No, we watch, we watch reruns ofa tool time and just laugh at,
I'm like, that's a lot ofreality
Darren (33:29):
yeah, it was a great show.
Yeah, I love, I remember that,that episode where, one of the
kids gets his first paycheckfrom his paper route.
And, and Tim permaplast it into
Jason (33:40):
He's like, how am I going to get it out?
Darren (33:42):
Yeah.
It's like, how am I going tocash it?
It's
Jason (33:45):
I can't tell you how many times I've watched an episode
and I'm like, we've experiencedthat.
I don't have three.
I have two boys and a daughter,but it's a, there was a lot of
good life lessons.
Hey, Darren, again, on apersonal note, personal
spiritual note, what are yourspiritual disciplines?
How do you stay close to theLord?
How do you grow insanctification?
what are the things that youhave in place, to do that?
Darren (34:05):
one of the best ones that has just, really changed my
life, is something that me andmy buddies call Bible texting
accountability.
So we are reading the samechapter of the Bible every day.
And I've been doing this now forabout two years where yesterday
we were in Genesis 50, we justfinished the book of Genesis.
(34:28):
And today we're starting Exodus,but I'm the following month will
be in Isaiah.
And then after that we'llprobably be in like Galatians or
something, who knows, but we'reall reading the same chapter.
and so the basic model is thatwe text each other one verse
from that chapter, just, It's acheck in Hey, I read the
(34:49):
chapter, like here's a versethat stood out to me.
and then what most of us do iswe'll add a thought or a prayer,
just like one sentence.
It usually, nothing more, maybetwo sentences max on, what your
prayer is in relation to thatverse or what thought you had in
relation to that verse.
(35:11):
And so
Jason (35:12):
How many guys are
Darren (35:13):
doing this,
Jason (35:14):
guys?
Darren (35:15):
there's actually the guy that started as here in our
area, and he, struggles withdyslexia and just really needed
kind of that extraaccountability to just commit to
reading the scripture, justbecause, it was already hard
enough, but then if you'rebattling with a reading, like
(35:36):
that, then he just needed someextra help.
And so I don't know how manyguys in total, but I know every
day I'm texting 14 guys and mostof them are texting me back
with, with a verse from thatparticular chapter.
And so to just be able to, be inthe word every day and do it as
(36:01):
a body, and where it's not justsort of me and my walk with God,
but we're, I think we weredesigned to, to do life
together.
And, some of the guys that arelike, yeah, I want the
accountability side, but I don'tlike.
having to do the same chapterthat you guys are.
So I'm going to text you averse, but it might be from, a
(36:24):
different book or just whateverI have.
And that's totally cool.
like just last night I texted,so Genesis 50 where Joseph, his
brothers, Jacob has just died.
And his brothers are like, Ohgosh, it's over for us now.
Like Jacob was the only thingstand between, us and Joseph,
(36:46):
destroying us and making usslaves and everything.
and Joseph is like, don't beafraid.
I'm going to take care of youand your kids.
And what you meant for evil,what the, what you meant for
evil, God meant for good.
And I just texted, that was myprayer.
Lord, next time I'm tempted tojust be resentful and
(37:08):
unforgiving toward somebodyelse.
Help me to remember those words.
Help me to remember the exampleof Joseph.
and that was it.
Within, Like one minute or twominutes.
One of the guys read that and hesaid, his exact words were you
just blew the resentment rightout of me because just 20
(37:28):
minutes ago I was about to gothrough the roof and that text
just you know, while that kindof result isn't like the main
purpose for it, the main purposeis that I get it in me.
he's not feeding off of, thatI'm getting, but that he's in
and he's in the chapter forhimself.
(37:49):
but yeah, it's just
Jason (37:51):
I love that.
I have developed a habit ofreading a full chapter each day,
which I love.
And, it's been a huge blessing,but that whole accountability
piece and just sharing, what yougot from that.
I like that idea a lot.
Darren (38:03):
and it's such a great way to just connect with other
guys that, we got our ownfamilies, we got our own careers
and we're going our separateways.
But this is like one of the onlyways that I have found that
grown men are going to be incontact daily.
Jason (38:23):
And then you guys do you guys vote on the next book?
I can see that being like, how,what's that process?
Yeah.
what are we going to read next?
Okay.
Darren (38:30):
To, to an extent.
Jason (38:32):
question for you?
What are some of the books andauthors I mean you've written a
book you've already recommendedwhich I appreciate and I think
that's super Relevant to thetopics that we talked about
here.
I'm gonna I'm a Kindle guy SoI'm gonna download that today
put it in my queue But who elsedo you recommend or podcasts?
other resources for Christianbusiness leaders.
Darren (38:54):
I love traction by Gina Wickman.
Jason (38:58):
had that recommended to me like two weeks ago
Darren (39:01):
yeah.
I love that.
it's not just theory andstories, but it's actually
application.
And here's, these are the tools,he uses the word tools, I don't
countless times throughout thebook because everything in the
book he considers to be a toolthat you can, and he shows you
(39:21):
how to implement it.
And, and I just love thatapproach.
In fact, I really tried toemulate some of that in writing
the Christ Center Company, butwith the biblical foundation.
In addition to showing like,this is how you actually put
this habit into practice.
But I love Gina Wickman and theentrepreneurial operating system
Jason (39:45):
Yeah.
It's the E EOS, right?
I, in the last, I don't know,six months or so, I've become
more exposed to this EOS.
so I have 30 years ofmanufacturing and I have studied
and practiced lean manufacturingand Six Sigma and all of those
process improvementmethodologies.
And I'm a huge believer in them.
And so as I started to see theEOS, I'm like, this is, A lot of
(40:08):
the similar, similarmethodologies, similar tools,
similar cadences.
And so I highly recommend peoplethat are responsible for
businesses, to understand moreabout EOS.
There's software I'm starting tosee more and more, there's a web
based software to be able tohelp you execute and, stay
organized.
Is there any that you guys usein your business that you have
(40:31):
found to be helpful as from onthe software side of things to
run EOS?
Darren (40:35):
we keep it pretty lean.
we're doing a lot of Excelspreadsheets, and, you know, old
school cause man those little 25a month, 50 a month
subscriptions add up prettyquick.
but.
No, we do use like MailChimp andQuickBooks and, some of those
things, but we don't get crazywhen it comes to CRMs and things
(41:00):
like that, I think we're justprobably not at the scale for
needing things like that, but,
Jason (41:06):
just seeing that's getting to be a little more,
broad base, some of the, yeah,some of the softwares that come
alongside of the EOSimplementation.
And, but yeah, definitelyrecommend people, check that
out.
That is in my queue.
I have that book queued up.
So what others, what other booksor
Darren (41:19):
Yeah.
and I was just going to saythat, another major advantage to
me personally of writing theChrist Center company is that it
forced me to make sure that I'mimplementing these things myself
for my company, So I'm not justwriting as, an, like a
consultant.
Like I'm like, like I can'tteach you to do something that
(41:40):
I'm not doing on my end.
And, and some of those areasdoing better than others, but
that's also the power of havingthis accountability group where
we're actually going through thebook.
And, we talk about differentthings that, for example, One of
our guys had, just a realtragedy happened to one of his
(42:02):
team members.
and so we started to talk abouthabit 22, which has to do with
providing pastoral care for youremployees and your team members.
And, we don't have a lot ofemployees, three employees,
including me, but we have othercontractors as well.
and the group challenged eachother.
So let's make sure that of ourteam members, even if they're
(42:24):
third party contractors that wedon't, work with daily, but that
get consistent work from us,let's reach out to them.
And so we did that, reached outto one of our guys works in
India and, We invited him to ourteam meeting this past week and
he was saying, that he's fromCal, he lives in Calcutta where
(42:46):
he's like, Oh, mother Teresa,yo, yeah.
Mother Teresa.
And, and good Friday coming.
he thought that our Easter wasthe whole thing was called good
Friday.
Um, and he was saying that hewas getting ready to go to the
temple to go worship thisgoddess, this coming weekend
while we're doing Easter.
but he just said, I'm S I thankyou so much.
(43:07):
Nobody.
people never reach out to melike this and want to find out
about my family and want to justfind out about me as a person.
And then he let us pray for himand pray for his family.
And,
Jason (43:20):
What an incredible example of everything you're
talking about.
What an incredible example.
Wow.
That's amazing.
Darren (43:27):
Yeah.
Cause what pastor is going toget access to minister?
You know what I
Jason (43:32):
none to the guy in India who's practicing and grew up,
probably practicing Hindu and noexposure to the Christian faith
or Christians except forwhatever he's heard.
that's probably completelyupside down.
Praise the Lord for that.
That's awesome.
Darren (43:47):
and that's not yet.
And we didn't just.
Go on a mission trip to India,have a one time encounter with
this guy, and we're never goingto see him again.
he's on our payroll.
we have influence with this man.
And, I just love, but that cameout of having some
accountability for going aswe're going through this book
(44:09):
and these habits to have a groupof other Christian business
people that are serious aboutimplementing these.
Like I can't implement some, Ican't teach something that I'm
not doing myself.
Jason (44:21):
right.
That's
Darren (44:21):
know what I mean?
And that was just one of theinstances of that.
Jason (44:24):
have a question.
Leadership question for you.
I always ask this questionbecause I want us to learn from
each other.
Darren, when you think back toearly on in your leadership
journey, what was something thatyou struggled with as a young
leader?
And did you overcome it?
Is it something you stillstruggle with?
And what advice would you havefor somebody who struggles with
(44:47):
this particular issue as a youngleader?
Darren (44:50):
I think, because so much of my identity became wrapped up
in performance.
And once I came into the airforce and it was like, Oh,
there's ranks and there'sribbons and metals and, awards
and all these kinds of things.
And that was just like, Perfectfor my flesh, and just that self
(45:12):
righteous part of me that wantsto just prove that I'm worthy,
you know, prove that I reallymatter.
And so one of the symptoms ofthat was that I felt like I kind
of had to do it all myself and Ihad nobody could do it better
than me.
And which was just ridiculous,but in some cases I could do it
(45:36):
better than the other person,but they're not getting any
opportunity.
To grow, to develop and plus mytime is not unlimited.
And I really ran into this whenI was trying to build this
business is because I was theproofreader.
Like I was the one that had todo the editing.
(45:57):
I was the one that, so at onepoint, when it really hit me
that Darren, this has got tostop was we went to my family
reunion and drove from Houstonup to Kentucky.
And I was proofreading amanuscript all the way there and
all the way back in a movingvehicle.
(46:17):
And, it was just ridiculous.
And the Lord said, spoke to myheart and said, I must increase,
you must decrease, like John theBaptist said,
Jason (46:26):
I love that verse.
I love that
Darren (46:27):
and I think, and so how does he actually increase like
in practice generally is throughother people, right?
Like we decide, okay, I don'thave to be Superman anymore.
I can decrease and allow him toincrease through the other
people around me.
and yeah, I might not feel likeI'm getting as much of the
(46:48):
credit because, I'm not the onethat actually delivers this to
the client anymore.
and so it just made us certainlymore profitable, but it really
reduced my anxiety level, andjust that overwhelm of when
everything is on your shoulders.
to deliver, it's a real trap.
(47:10):
And so God really just broke meout of that.
Jason (47:13):
I think in my experience, that is a super common struggle
because if you're a really goodindividual contributor, that's
who's going to get promoted.
And that means that you wereexceptional and you got the work
done.
You were productive and learningto be productive through other
(47:33):
people.
and delegate and teach and letgo.
And you just made a reallyinteresting comment too.
That's a struggle for someleaders is that you said, I'm
not the one now to be able todeliver that finished work.
That glory is going to somebodyelse now, but as mature leaders,
I think, and I had to go throughthe same process where now I can
(47:55):
sit back and get excited forthat person and watching them.
get the glory for that successand say, okay, this is good.
And feel like I don't have to behere every minute of the day for
this to hold together.
that's where leadership maturitystarts to happen.
Developing a team, you can begone and things are going to
keep going.
(48:15):
they're not going to fall apart.
And so many leaders I've workedwith or around that are like,
they, I don't know.
They just have to feel so neededthat if they're not there, all
the decisions have to comethrough them and it's a broken,
unbiblical, selfish model.
So
Darren (48:33):
That's right.
Yeah, there's another great bookcalled the linchpin by Seth
Godin and I really love thatconcept because the Lord just
has really made me feel like I'min that linchpin role in a lot
of the places that I've been inwhere the linchpin is not The
(48:53):
linchpin is not the, theglorified, like when you look at
the, whatever's moving, thelinchpin just keeps keeps the
wheel from falling off.
it's that little tiny, I've gotone on my dolly.
That's the only linchpin I canthink of that I have, here, it's
that little small role, but alot does pivot on that role.
(49:18):
And there, there is certainly aimportant role that I have in
the places where God puts me,but that role is not to, To get
the glory and to get the credit.
And so just overcoming that hasbeen, like I don't need to be
the charismatic leader on stage.
(49:38):
I'm not going to be that person.
That's way out in front.
And, that everybody has to, toaspire to and everything.
Like I'll just, I'll be thatlinchpin wherever the Lord wants
me.
You know what I mean?
Jason (49:53):
Hey, a couple more questions for you before we wrap
up.
One thing I always like to askis, Let's say that you had a
new, a young leader, just gottheir first promotion.
They're going to be leading ateam, a department.
And they reached out, said,Darren, I'll buy you a cup of
coffee.
Come and give me your bestadvice for first time leading a
team.
what advice would you give themin that situation?
Darren (50:16):
I would say stay surrounded with senior leaders.
stay surrounded and likeactively invite them to speak
into the situations that you'redealing with.
the temptation is gonna be tofeel like, Oh, if I make it seem
like I don't have it alltogether, then they're not going
(50:37):
to respect me.
And that's the, that's a lie.
Cause it's not, they feel sogratified.
They're going to respect you alot more by being the one that
has the chutzpah to come tosomebody that has been around
longer than you have to be ableto help navigate the situation.
(50:58):
Even if you feel like, you'redoing it just to invite them
into your life.
Like even if it's something youfeel like you really probably
could figure out on your own, tojust keep those lines of
communication open, causeotherwise you end up like Raya
Boom and the Bible.
where says that, he followed theadvice of just the young men
(51:23):
that were not seasoned, theyweren't experienced and they,
and that he did not listen tothe voice of the elders.
And he ended up ripping Thewhole kingdom apart.
that was, yeah, he, if he wasthe linchpin, like he, the
whole, everything just fell offat that point.
Everything was ripped apart, butit started with him refusing to
(51:45):
listen to people who had beenaround longer than him.
Jason (51:48):
You said at the very beginning, and that's why I had
to laugh that, and it's truethat sometimes we think as young
leaders coming into a newsituation, man, if I ask a
question, they're going to thinkI don't know what I'm doing.
I'm here to tell you, they knowthat you don't know what you're
doing.
And and I did it too.
I'm not, throwing stones,getting a mentor, asking for
(52:11):
that input.
But.
Great advice, man.
That is super, super important.
And I've also found, and I thinkyou would, I'm guessing you
would agree, Darren, when youask, they're eager to help.
99 percent of the time, they'relike, yeah, I'd be happy to sit
down and have a coffee with you,or, have a one to one meeting
with you, or whatever, and giveyou some I have a guy who was a
mentor of mine years ago, andhe's retired.
(52:34):
We, we worked together.
I left that company.
He retired.
There's nothing in it for him.
But when I email him and I havemaybe once a year or so, I'll
say I've got something prettymajor.
I'd like to run by you a hundredpercent of the time.
He said, yeah, let's jump on acall.
he's retired.
I, what, but, and I'm sograteful for that because this
(52:56):
guy's yeah.
lot of wisdom from him.
So good advice.
Hey, Darren, how can people,reach out to you and I'll put,
content.
I'm going to link to the bookand the website on here, but if
people want to connect with youand network.
What are some good ways to dothat?
And we'll be sure to sharethose.
Darren (53:13):
Yeah, if you're interested in publishing a book,
you can go to highbridgebooks.
com.
You can email me at darren athighbridgebooks.
com.
If you are interested indiscovering and applying God's
will for business, go totheologyofbusiness.
com.
Tons and tons of free resourcesthere.
And if you want to go deeper, Iwould strongly recommend getting
(53:38):
this book, the Christ centeredcompany, which is actually my
third book written specificallyfor marketplace Christians.
The other two being marketinglike Jesus and the marketplace
Christian.
Jason (53:49):
That's great, man.
I'm excited.
I'm excited because this is newinformation for me.
As I said, before we are alittle bit ago, you and I just
met, someone connected us, whichI'm very grateful for.
So I am looking forward to alsobuying that book and developing
my own thinking further on that.
Darren, thank you for taking thetime out of your busy schedule
(54:09):
away from your family today andcoming on the show and sharing
with us, brother.
I pray that the Lord willcontinue to use you, to bless
workplace believers, to glorifyhim, around the country, around
the world, even, in, in advanceof his kingdom.
So thank you, brother.
Appreciate it.
Darren (54:25):
Yeah.
And thanks for what you'redoing.
fighting the good fight anddiscipling and equipping
marketplace leaders.
That's what we need.
So thanks for what you're doing,Jason.
Jason (54:36):
It's a joy.
It's a joy.
All right.
Thanks, brother.
Speaker 4 (54:39):
And thank you for listening in to the podcast
today.
I pray that the content andrecommended resources are a help
to you as you strive to honorChrist in your work.
I hope you will join me againnext month as we meet another
leader working to advance thekingdom in their workplace.
Welcome to the Biblical Leadership at Work
podcast.
I am your host, Jason Woodard.
On today's show, we will meetDarren Shearer.
Darren is an entrepreneur, AirForce veteran, author, host
himself.
Darren and I discuss how Godused his time in the military to
mature him spiritually andultimately lead him to become an
(00:22):
author and start his own bookpublishing company.
We discuss how Christians canand should be shaping culture in
their workplaces.
Darren (00:30):
And so when we are reflecting Christ in our work,
we're reflecting the glory ofGod.
and that is more than justtaking somebody through a gospel
track, but it's now shapingculture.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
We also discussed the importance of leaders developing
their teams and becomingcomfortable with not being the
one getting all of the glory.
Darren (00:52):
there is certainly a important role that I have in
the places where God puts me,but that role is not to get the
glory and to get the credit.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Darren also speaks to the importance of having a
mentor and the hesitation wesometimes have at taking that
first step.
Darren (01:10):
and like actively invite them to speak into the
situations that you're dealingwith.
the temptation is gonna be tofeel like, Oh well, if I make it
seem like I don't have it alltogether, then they're not going
to respect me.
And that's you know, that's alie.
Jason (01:29):
All right.
Darren Shearer, brother, thankyou for being on the podcast
today, man.
I look forward to getting toknow you and sharing what you
have for us with the audience.
Darren (01:38):
Same here, Jason.
Thanks for having me.
Jason (01:40):
tell us a little bit about your background, brother.
what's your educationbackground, what's your, work
experience and then up to wherethe Lord has you now.
Darren (01:47):
I could go back, quite a ways.
so I came into the militaryprior to that.
I was a rebellious son of apreacher man and which is
running from God.
doing the high school sportsand, trying to fit in and be
cool and all of that.
And, my life just hit a pit ofdepression and purposelessness
(02:09):
is really what it came down to.
I just was questioning what islife for?
is there, there's gotta besomething more for me.
And then 9, 11 happened, 2001, Iwas a sophomore in college.
And on that morning, when I sawwhat had happened to our
country, I went to thecommandant of cadets office at
our ROTC department at ourcollege.
(02:31):
and said, sir, I'd like to jointhe military.
And they, began to ask me aboutmy credentials and, achievements
and things like that.
And I really had very little.
going for me at that time.
But Hey, the Lord used thatbecause the Air Force needed
people at that time, neededofficers and because we were
(02:55):
going to war.
And so the Lord just gave me alot of favor to be able to come
into the military.
and he began to use the militaryto disciple me.
As a follower of Christ and tojust, and give me a sense of
purpose, which initially wasjust, I think just patriotism,
but because I was surrounded byjust a lot of really quality
(03:17):
Christian people, Christianleaders, began to see myself as
a leader for the first time.
I'd been a team captain and thatsort of thing, but I had not
been.
really walking out, living alife that I could say, wow, that
kid's a natural born leader.
Like people wouldn't have saidthat about me at that time.
(03:38):
but the air force really helpedto awaken a lot of that in me.
So that's, that was the startingpoint in my
Jason (03:45):
So you were in college at the time still, what year
college.
Darren (03:49):
Yeah, I was a sophomore.
I was a sophomore in college soit was one of the only, there
was only two.
ROTC programs that were two yearprograms in the entire country.
And I just happened to be atone.
I mean, I basically, it wasCharleston Southern
Jason (04:04):
Okay.
All right.
Darren (04:05):
And so a lot of the cadets that I was in ROTC with
were prior enlisted folks thatcame from Charleston air force
base.
And so they weren't just, likeme, like young, just trying to
figure out what we're doing inlife.
Like these were like seasons.
veterans that I was nowsurrounded with.
And several of those were keypeople who were Christians that
(04:29):
really helped me to discoverthat God had more for my life
than just what I wasexperiencing.
So that was How am I?
I would say how my career gotstarted.
Jason (04:40):
So you graduate college, and you're an officer now in the
air force.
Darren (04:45):
That's right.
Yeah.
So I commissioned as a secondlieutenant and then my duty
station was Barksdale Air ForceBase, home of the B 52 in
Northwest Louisiana.
And I was there for four yearsand spent about six months in
Kuwait.
doing logistics.
And when I was there, I wasresponsible for coordinating the
(05:07):
freight forwarding or the cargomovements of all of the air
forces cargo that was coming inby ship into the Middle East.
And so I would decide if that'sgoing to go up on a convoy, or
it's going to be airlifted insome cases, put her on another
smaller boat and going down toQatar, for example.
(05:30):
And, so that was my role therefor four years and it was a lot
of
Jason (05:34):
Yeah.
Learn a lot.
Thank you for your service,brother.
Darren (05:37):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Jason (05:39):
So after the military now, you're an entrepreneur now
and we're not there yet.
I'm excited to learn about that.
But so talk to us about how youtransitioned from military life
to civilian life and what theLord.
Led you through there.
Darren (05:52):
Yeah.
since we're talking aboutbiblical leadership, there's
another, key part of my journey.
When I was in the air force, Iwas I still had the mindset that
ministry is something thathappens in a church type
program.
cause that was what was modeledfor me growing up with my dad
being a pastor working in achurch.
(06:13):
And I'll never forget, I wasleaving the base.
one particular day to go do somevolunteer work through my local
church.
And I was doing a lot ofdifferent, I'm as a young,
single guy, no kids, I was justvolunteering all over the place.
but the Lord just really hit meupside the head with this.
Revelation, when I was leavingthe base this day, and he said,
(06:35):
this base is your ministry.
that was a real paradigm shiftfor me because now my
orientation for ministry was notministry is something that
happens somewhere that I'm notcurrently, and I just need to
get that I can do ministry.
or, some people feel like I gotto go to seminary and I got to
go work in a church or be amissionary and live in a mud hut
(07:00):
or all of that.
And the Lord just broke me outof that and clarified that
there's so many people on thisair force and God was
surrounding me with them all thetime.
people that just needed Jesusthere on the base.
and so that was a real shift forme.
But when I did get out of theair force, after coming back
(07:22):
from Kuwait, I did sense theLord wanted me to go to
seminary, not to go plant achurch or do, conventional,
church type, of a ministry, butbecause I knew that the Lord
wanted me to have a biblicalfoundation for what, you He part
of, at least part of what me,what he wanted me to do, which
was to really dive intodiscovering what does the Bible
(07:48):
say about business?
What is God's will for business?
and then I went to businessschool after that.
And since then I've really beentrying to blend the two.
And, the Bible says you can'tserve both God and money.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
the great commission is to.
Make disciples.
Where's that going to happen?
(08:09):
It's got to happen where youspend most of your waking hours,
which is for most of us in a forprofit company.
Jason (08:15):
and I would even say, Darren, I don't know if you know
Jordan Rayner.
Are you familiar
Darren (08:19):
Yeah, actually, I just interviewed him like a week
Jason (08:22):
yeah, so we run in the same circles, right?
I love what Jordan says aboutthe first commission.
What was our first commission?
And if we do that, well.
it equips us to better do thegreat commission and the great
commission is the greatcommission for sure.
I love where the conversation'sgoing in regards to that because
it is so important.
And as we go into ourworkplaces, wherever that be,
(08:45):
military base, as I sharedbefore we hit record, I have
spent 30 years in manufacturingand going into plants and being
able to do my work withexcellence in a way that
glorifies the Lord.
And there's inherent value inthe work and be that light and
that salt in the workplace andhave those opportunities, not
(09:06):
all the time, but have thoseopportunities to actually share
the gospel, invite, people tocome out to church and hear the
gospel and, but until we're,until we got the work part down,
we're not being obedient to theLord.
the thing that I'm very excitedabout with the, I'll call it
the, this movement.
that you're very involved in isthat we're trying to break that
(09:28):
paradigm of ministry onlyhappens in the church and the
missions field.
And those are wonderful,beautiful places where God's
kingdoms advanced, but ministryshould be happening everywhere,
including in our workplaces.
And God uses that to glorifyhimself through whatever the
(09:49):
work is.
it, it demonstrates hischaracteristics, whether it's
creative work, restorative work,it's all part of who he is and
that first commission that hegave us to go be fruitful and
multiply and subdue the earth.
Darren (10:02):
yeah, and I really, yeah, I really see the Great
Commission as, not that theseare two separate commissions,
but that the, what we refer toas the Great Commission in
Matthew 28 is really a reframedversion of the First Commission
or some call it the culturalmandate or the creation mandate.
(10:24):
it's as if, God is saying, okay,we've seen how you, we've seen
how you do ruling and subduingthe earth apart from me, just
feeding on the wrong tree now.
Now if you're really gonna dothat, the way you do that is by
following me, and becoming likeme.
(10:45):
and so that's the idea ofdiscipleship.
But the problem is that we'vereduced disciple making down to,
that's when you get, you takepeople through a gospel tract
and we reduce disciple makingdown to.
Taking somebody through a littlequick, tiny gospel tract, and
(11:05):
there's a lot of power andthere's, that's the gospel
message is very simple and insome ways can be reduced to just
the simplicity of that message.
But for it to really take holdin our lives for us to really
bear fruit, this is a, a timeconsuming process.
And the only way you're going tobe a disciple is by committing
(11:28):
to a process, which is not justa one and done.
you're following him every day.
and, it says in Hebrews that Thesun is the exact representation
of God's glory.
And so when we are reflectingChrist in our work, we're
reflecting the glory.
(11:48):
of God.
and that again, is more thanjust taking somebody through a
gospel track, but it's seeingit's now shaping culture.
It's shaping corporate culture.
And I think that's where Ireally focus a lot of my energy
and thinking is how do we dothat on a company level because
(12:12):
that's where people are going tobe at least for adults, working
adults, the primary place wherethey're going to be shaped, as
disciples of Christ, where theirspiritual formation is going to
happen one way or another.
if they're going to conform tothe pattern of this world, or
they're going to become morelike Christ, it's that
(12:33):
battleground is in the workplaceand the culture of that
organization is either.
making disciples of Christ ormaking disciples of, the spirit
of the age, the, any, anything,any other godless value system.
And so that's an opportunity wehave as Christian leaders is to
(12:55):
shape the culture because theculture I really believe is what
the Holy Spirit, and frankly,against the Holy Spirit, other
spirits working throughcultures, to get people to think
and act in certain ways andconsider those ways as right.
this is just the right way to,to think about, social issues
(13:19):
and, how to treat people andwhat the value systems ought to
be and all of
Jason (13:25):
one of the definitions.
I've heard of culture that Ireally like.
I'm a very practical guy, right?
so sometimes these terms arelike Can be very academic One of
the one of the definitions Iheard was that it's essentially
the behaviors it's the amount ofbehaviors that are accepted in
an organization.
It forms your culture, right?
So what's tolerated within theorganization, what's expected.
(13:45):
And it starts with leaders.
And what if you go into anorganization, that culture is
what's expected, at a positivelevel.
And what's tolerated at a notpositive, right?
what's the minimum standard ifso you're right now talking to
people that are business leadersin all kinds of industries at
(14:06):
different phases of theircareer.
They have different sized teamsthat they're responsible for.
In some cases, people thataren't in management or
supervision that haveaspirations maybe to be, or just
want to learn.
Darren, how would you giveadvice to people who work in
various fields and careers andhow do they help mold the
(14:27):
culture in their workplace?
In a way that is more in linewith biblical principles because
they're not necessarily, thisis, let's say quote unquote
secular work, right?
So they're not necessarilycoming and having Bible studies
every day.
Maybe they are, that'd be great,but they can come and form
policies, procedures, and form aculture that's aligned with
(14:50):
biblical principles.
What are some practical ways orsome ways that you would,
challenge them and advise themon doing that.
Darren (14:56):
I have a whole book on this, titled the Christ centered
company.
Okay.
And in that book, I talk about37 biblical business habits and
I, the way I understand culture,nuance from what you were
saying.
And I think your definition isright as well, is, the culture
are the defining habits of agroup of people.
(15:19):
And so what are the defininghabits of your organization
today?
And in your, or let's say justyour department and the way
that, for example, how youhandle conflict, what is the
prevailing value system asexpressed through the default
habits of the people?
(15:41):
and so as a leader, and I'lljust, I'll share one of the
habits, which is really thebedrock habit.
And.
it's a bit difficult toquantify.
cause it's really more of amindset.
Whereas a lot of the otherhabits in the book are more like
practical.
like you can really measure it.
(16:01):
But this particular one isrecognize Jesus is on the
receiving end of every actionthat's taken in your company.
So now Jesus is no longer justthe one who is high and lifted
up and the chairman of the boardand looking down on the
(16:22):
organization.
But he's also your entry levelemployee that you just hired.
He's also that intern.
He's also your customer.
And every action that we take inrelation to those people, Jesus
is on the receiving end.
And it says, that's what it saysin Colossians 3:23-24 whatever
(16:45):
you do work at it with all yourheart as working for the Lord.
So this isn't just, that theLord is your boss, which he is,
he is the King, but sometimes wecan just convince ourselves
that, I'm relating to God in oneway and I'm relating to this
(17:05):
person I don't like or thisperson I look down on in a
different way.
and Jesus says, if you've doneit for them, you've done it for
me.
If you haven't done it for them,you haven't done it for
Jason (17:16):
It's having that, it's having that proper perspective
that they are created in God'simage.
Darren (17:21):
yeah, exactly.
Jason (17:23):
and we have to take that approach.
And I like what you said aboutthose that work on your team for
you, customers, colleagues,suppliers.
Treating them all in that wayand with biblical love, right?
Which is honesty, transparency,kindness, grace, remembering
(17:44):
that God treated us kindly andwith love when we were still his
enemies.
Yeah.
And I, one of the, the we knowscripture is clear that if we're
not to forgive others, we won'tbe forgiven.
And so being forgiving andshowing grace to those because
that's hard at the workplacesometimes, and so one of the
(18:04):
things I always Remember quicklyby the grace of God As I've been
forgiven for far more than Iwill ever have to forgive anyone
else of so again You knowinteracting with people with
that mindset in a way that's youknow When there is conflict in a
way that shows grace and loveand patience You Truth.
there's still, you have to comeat it full of truth
Darren (18:26):
Yeah,
Jason (18:27):
and grace.
Everything.
Darren (18:33):
between a company that is Christ centered and one that
is not or a leader who is Christcentered and one who is not is
can be really boiled down to oneword and that's worship.
I think to the Elijah and theprophets of Baal, where there
(18:53):
was a challenge where the,between the prophets of bailed
are going to do it their way andget, try to get their God to
answer by fire.
And Elijah would do it his wayand invite his God to answer by
fire.
And of course, ultimately,Jehovah ignites Elijah's, altar
(19:13):
that was doused in water.
And, they hack up the prophetsof Baal and, it's just a wild
story.
But I just believe that Godwants to, I think about that as
a kind of a analogy for Christcentered companies and those
that are not where it's going tolook different.
(19:35):
It's going to, it might lookcounterintuitive to the outside
world that you're going to,prefer others above yourself,
for example, as a value of aChrist centered leader.
but God is going to ignite that,like God is going to honor that.
and it might not be impressiveto the outside world, but
(19:56):
fundamentally, that.
what you're doing is an act ofworship for God.
And so when Jesus is on thereceiving end of everything
that's done in the business, nowyour business and your role
there becomes an altar ofworship, instead of, and the
alternative is going to be anidol.
and when we hold on to theinfluence and the things that
(20:20):
got in trust to us in theworkplace and get our identities
wrapped up in that it becomes anidol.
And when it's an idol instead ofan altar, there's no worship.
There's just, there's a very,Yeah, it's self worship.
There's a lot of just insecurityand anxiety and it's not
(20:42):
advancing, it's certainly notcarrying out the Great
Commission because it's notrevealing God's glory, it's not
revealing the person of Jesus.
Even if you take, a coupleminutes each week to go,
evangelize at the water cooler.
Like the mission has been just,
Jason (21:01):
Eroded.
It's just, yeah.
Darren (21:03):
yeah.
Eroded.
Yeah.
Jason (21:05):
So Darren, right now you are leading a company that you
founded.
Tell us a little bit about whatyou're doing right now, the name
of your company and what's your,what's your role is there and
Darren (21:16):
Yeah.
they would ask me in undergrad,what are you going to do with
that English degree?
Because I was an English majorand I didn't know.
it's that frustrating questionthat every college student gets
asked, what are you going to dowith that degree?
And I finally realized, that Iwould just say, what am I not
going to do with the Englishdegree in an English speaking
(21:36):
country?
so that was my little comebackthere, but I never really
understood how much God wasgoing to use that later on.
because the company that I endedup starting was a book
publishing company and I taught,academic writing when I was in
grad school as just a littleside hustle there in our
university writing center whileI was doing my studies and these
(22:02):
doctoral students, mostlyEnglish as a second language
doctoral students would come tome in the writing center and ask
if I would, edit theirdissertations.
and so there's a little market.
On a university for, editingdoctoral dissertations,
especially when you've got a lotof international students that
need, extra help with that.
(22:23):
And so that's how I cut my teethin the, for profit publishing
world.
And it wasn't long after that,that I published my first book
about, let's see, 14 years ago.
And that the title of that bookwas in you God trusts.
And based on the premise thatGod doesn't just love us, but he
(22:43):
trusts us and has entrusted,some things to us, really
everything we have.
because God has entrusted
Jason (22:51):
We're stewards.
We're stewards of all of it.
Darren (22:53):
yeah, you don't entrust something to somebody that you
don't trust, is what it boilsdown to for me.
And first Corinthians 13, sevensays love, always trust.
Anyways, so that's that book, ina nutshell.
and so I was in business schoolin New York city and this was in
(23:14):
like 2009, 2010 when, all thenew social media companies were
coming online and just, it waslike, we're the Facebook of this
and we're the Expedia of that.
And that was all the rage when Iwas in business school.
And it left me feeling like, Ohgosh, if I don't start a tech
(23:38):
company like this, then, my typeof business doesn't really
matter.
And so I ended up spinning mywheels, threw away some money on
trying to get something started.
And in the end, the Lord justspoke to me.
like you spoke to Moses,although it wasn't at a burning
(24:00):
bush.
and just said, what's that inyour hand.
and of course Moses throws downhis staff.
And for me, as it related to mycareer, what I had in my hand
was, I have some experiencedoing proofreading.
I have some experience, and Ihad logistics experience, but I
didn't really sense God wascalling me to go do it.
back into the industrial worldand manufacturing and all of
(24:23):
that.
I knew that there was somethingto do with teaching and, books
on some level.
And so he just said to go aheadand start this publishing
company in a neighborhood.
I was living in at the time inupper Manhattan's called
Washington Heights.
And there's a bridge called thehigh bridge that connects the
Bronx to Manhattan.
(24:43):
And it was the oldest bridge inall of New York city and is
built as an aqueduct to bringwater into the city.
And the Lord gave me this visionthat our company, which is named
high bridge books, would be likean aqueduct to bring life giving
stories and messages to people.
And fast forward, 10 years afterwe started that company now, I
(25:03):
think we've got over 205 booksunder contract and I've written
a handful of those.
and that's, that's the sandboxthat I get to play in is helping
Christian authors get theirmessage out, which
Jason (25:17):
No.
And is it run a broad spectrumof topics that you guys publish?
it's all, it's Christian authorsaround whatever.
Okay.
Darren (25:26):
Yeah.
CS Lewis said we don't need moreChristian books.
We need more books written byChristians.
So I like that.
philosophy.
And, while we do publish a lotof Christian books that are
Christian living books,devotionals, things of that
nature.
we do publish industry specificbooks.
(25:46):
like we've got one, one bookthat is like the quintessential
book.
If you were running a, oilchange operation.
we've got a set of books if youwere managing dental offices.
And so I just love that.
Yeah, that we can speak into andthat our authors are bringing
(26:07):
their Christian worldview intothese, particular, areas,
instead of everybody having towrite the same kind of Christian
living book, that's already beenwritten.
but then, we have a lot ofauthors that are sharing their
story of what God has broughtthem through.
we have one particular authorwho is, ESPN sideline reporter,
(26:31):
her book's getting ready to comeout.
lost both of her parents toprescription drug addiction,
fentanyl overdoses within 24hours.
When she was a gymnast atRutgers as just a freshman in
college, it loses both of herparents to, an addiction.
She didn't even know they hadand that nobody knew.
Jason (26:48):
Kept it hidden.
Darren (26:49):
And, she's on fire for God.
just, loves the Lord you look ather, you hear her and you're
like, there's no way you've beenthrough something like this.
but it's just, the power ofGod's redemption.
And, so yeah, we published bookson a wide range of topics.
Jason (27:08):
talk a little bit about your, theology of business
institute.
So you've got two things goright.
You're involved in both leadingat both of those organizations.
What's that all about?
Darren (27:18):
As I mentioned a little earlier in the interview, I went
to seminary and then I went tobusiness school and, I really
sense a calling to bring a blendof the two to where we're not
just teaching business apartfrom a Christian worldview.
and because that's where 85percent of Christian workforce
(27:40):
in the United States spends mostof their waking hours.
So if the church is not engagingbusiness, then we're not
carrying out the mission.
Like we're just, we'recompletely missing it.
If we're just waiting for peopleto show up on Sundays so that we
can get them to volunteer in ourchurch and, try to help them in
(28:00):
a couple of areas.
if they're not around people whoare living a Christian
lifestyle, modeling a Christianlifestyle all throughout the
week, then they're missing it.
and the church really is missingit.
And so I just really feltpassionate to, just really speak
into this area.
And so the mission is todiscover and apply God's will
(28:25):
for business.
and so that's not just like, howdo take somebody through the
Roman's road
Jason (28:30):
at
Darren (28:31):
work.
but how do you model the waysand the will of God in marketing
and accounting and riskmanagement and all the different
facets of business?
Jason (28:42):
if somebody is again a business leader, let's say they
have Fairly high levelresponsibilities at a company
and they want to think moreclearly about that Go to the
website check it out.
do you do training as yourbooks?
Like how do you?
You Engage with people that areinterested in growing in that
way.
Cause I would encourage it.
I'm, I want to as a leader andI'm sure many people that listen
(29:05):
to this want to grow in thatway.
So
Darren (29:07):
at the risk of sounding self serving, I would definitely
recommend people get the book,The Christ
Jason (29:12):
yeah.
Oh no, that's why we're talking,man.
It's like
Darren (29:14):
yeah.
and it, and there is a, anassessment that goes along with
that people can take for free attheologyofbusiness.
com.
but the book is going to helpwhen you go through all of the
items in the assessment, you'regoing to, you're going to self
assess and in the differentareas of these 37 habits and
(29:35):
self assess, not just yourself,but your more so your company,
corporately, because again, Ireally feel strongly that the
way disciples are made is notjust through the influence of
any one person, but thecollective influence of a lot of
people.
Otherwise known as culture and,culture is not just cultural
(30:00):
artifacts like, the songs thatwe write and the, or even the
products that we produce or theservices that we render.
All of those things.
are birthed out of the culture,but the culture is what will
remain.
So people are going to come andgo from your company.
That culture is what willremain.
(30:22):
but as individuals, we get toinfluence the culture.
and so people can take thatassessment.
and then the areas where, a lotof what we've seen is they take
the assessment.
They know they need help.
like there's one particular,gentleman who runs a pool
cleaning company down in Floridaand, his wife got him the book
(30:45):
for Christmas and he justdevoured it and immediately
started implementing the habitsAnd he reached out and said, he
wanted help going through theassessment.
He then hopped into a group thatwe have going on for business
leaders that are really seriousabout.
Implementing these habits intheir business because each of
(31:06):
the 37 habits is not just, agood to implement habit.
There's biblical precedent, abiblical foundation taught for
each one of the habits becausethe way I'm wired, I need to
know the why behind what I'mdoing.
like if this is just, some nonChristian consultants advice,
(31:27):
yeah, I might use it, but I'mnot going to have the, level of
commitment to it that I wouldhave if I knew that there was a
scriptural foundation for it.
Jason (31:38):
Yup.
Darren (31:39):
And I think a lot of us are wired that way as well.
So I'd encourage people to gotake that assessment, get the
book.
If you want some more in depthhelp, we can go one on one and
you can also hop into one ofour, one of our
Jason (31:55):
You have some groups.
That's great.
Oh, I love that.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna check itout.
You and, I, you and I just meton this.
So this is new to me as well asmy audience, I'm guessing.
So that's super exciting.
Hey, a couple of questions, backon a personal note for you,
Darren, tell us a little bitabout your family, married kids,
what's your situation there?
Darren (32:14):
I'm married.
we've been married 11 years.
actually it'll be 12 years inMay and we've got three boys,
10, eight and five and yeah,we're having a lot of fun.
I get to work from home and havebeen working from home for the
last, ever since we got married.
and yeah, we live in WesternNorth Carolina, a town called
(32:37):
Wayne, Waynesville about 30minutes West of Asheville.
Jason (32:41):
Asheville.
That's a great area.
Darren (32:43):
yeah, I can hear, hopefully y'all can't hear this,
but I can hear.
My, my 10 year old over thereplaying Star Wars on the piano.
Jason (32:51):
I can't, I
Darren (32:52):
he's just gotten really into piano and music here
lately.
So that's a lot of
Jason (32:57):
That is a lot of fun when you start to see your kids pick
up something and get passionateabout it.
When you said three boys, one ofmy very favorite shows of all
time was a tool time or homeimprovement, whatever, you get
them mixed up.
So when you say three boys,that's instantly what I think
about your house, your poorwife.
She must be a, the Lord mustthink, I know she has a lot of
patients.
Darren (33:18):
Yeah.
At first I thought you weregoing to say my three sons, but
I'm like, I know you're not
Jason (33:23):
no, I'm not that old.
No, we watch, we watch reruns ofa tool time and just laugh at,
I'm like, that's a lot ofreality
Darren (33:29):
yeah, it was a great show.
Yeah, I love, I remember that,that episode where, one of the
kids gets his first paycheckfrom his paper route.
And, and Tim permaplast it into
Jason (33:40):
He's like, how am I going to get it out?
Darren (33:42):
Yeah.
It's like, how am I going tocash it?
It's
Jason (33:45):
I can't tell you how many times I've watched an episode
and I'm like, we've experiencedthat.
I don't have three.
I have two boys and a daughter,but it's a, there was a lot of
good life lessons.
Hey, Darren, again, on apersonal note, personal
spiritual note, what are yourspiritual disciplines?
How do you stay close to theLord?
How do you grow insanctification?
what are the things that youhave in place, to do that?
Darren (34:05):
one of the best ones that has just, really changed my
life, is something that me andmy buddies call Bible texting
accountability.
So we are reading the samechapter of the Bible every day.
And I've been doing this now forabout two years where yesterday
we were in Genesis 50, we justfinished the book of Genesis.
(34:28):
And today we're starting Exodus,but I'm the following month will
be in Isaiah.
And then after that we'llprobably be in like Galatians or
something, who knows, but we'reall reading the same chapter.
and so the basic model is thatwe text each other one verse
from that chapter, just, It's acheck in Hey, I read the
(34:49):
chapter, like here's a versethat stood out to me.
and then what most of us do iswe'll add a thought or a prayer,
just like one sentence.
It usually, nothing more, maybetwo sentences max on, what your
prayer is in relation to thatverse or what thought you had in
relation to that verse.
(35:11):
And so
Jason (35:12):
How many guys are
Darren (35:13):
doing this,
Jason (35:14):
guys?
Darren (35:15):
there's actually the guy that started as here in our
area, and he, struggles withdyslexia and just really needed
kind of that extraaccountability to just commit to
reading the scripture, justbecause, it was already hard
enough, but then if you'rebattling with a reading, like
(35:36):
that, then he just needed someextra help.
And so I don't know how manyguys in total, but I know every
day I'm texting 14 guys and mostof them are texting me back
with, with a verse from thatparticular chapter.
And so to just be able to, be inthe word every day and do it as
(36:01):
a body, and where it's not justsort of me and my walk with God,
but we're, I think we weredesigned to, to do life
together.
And, some of the guys that arelike, yeah, I want the
accountability side, but I don'tlike.
having to do the same chapterthat you guys are.
So I'm going to text you averse, but it might be from, a
(36:24):
different book or just whateverI have.
And that's totally cool.
like just last night I texted,so Genesis 50 where Joseph, his
brothers, Jacob has just died.
And his brothers are like, Ohgosh, it's over for us now.
Like Jacob was the only thingstand between, us and Joseph,
(36:46):
destroying us and making usslaves and everything.
and Joseph is like, don't beafraid.
I'm going to take care of youand your kids.
And what you meant for evil,what the, what you meant for
evil, God meant for good.
And I just texted, that was myprayer.
Lord, next time I'm tempted tojust be resentful and
(37:08):
unforgiving toward somebodyelse.
Help me to remember those words.
Help me to remember the exampleof Joseph.
and that was it.
Within, Like one minute or twominutes.
One of the guys read that and hesaid, his exact words were you
just blew the resentment rightout of me because just 20
(37:28):
minutes ago I was about to gothrough the roof and that text
just you know, while that kindof result isn't like the main
purpose for it, the main purposeis that I get it in me.
he's not feeding off of, thatI'm getting, but that he's in
and he's in the chapter forhimself.
(37:49):
but yeah, it's just
Jason (37:51):
I love that.
I have developed a habit ofreading a full chapter each day,
which I love.
And, it's been a huge blessing,but that whole accountability
piece and just sharing, what yougot from that.
I like that idea a lot.
Darren (38:03):
and it's such a great way to just connect with other
guys that, we got our ownfamilies, we got our own careers
and we're going our separateways.
But this is like one of the onlyways that I have found that
grown men are going to be incontact daily.
Jason (38:23):
And then you guys do you guys vote on the next book?
I can see that being like, how,what's that process?
Yeah.
what are we going to read next?
Okay.
Darren (38:30):
To, to an extent.
Jason (38:32):
question for you?
What are some of the books andauthors I mean you've written a
book you've already recommendedwhich I appreciate and I think
that's super Relevant to thetopics that we talked about
here.
I'm gonna I'm a Kindle guy SoI'm gonna download that today
put it in my queue But who elsedo you recommend or podcasts?
other resources for Christianbusiness leaders.
Darren (38:54):
I love traction by Gina Wickman.
Jason (38:58):
had that recommended to me like two weeks ago
Darren (39:01):
yeah.
I love that.
it's not just theory andstories, but it's actually
application.
And here's, these are the tools,he uses the word tools, I don't
countless times throughout thebook because everything in the
book he considers to be a toolthat you can, and he shows you
(39:21):
how to implement it.
And, and I just love thatapproach.
In fact, I really tried toemulate some of that in writing
the Christ Center Company, butwith the biblical foundation.
In addition to showing like,this is how you actually put
this habit into practice.
But I love Gina Wickman and theentrepreneurial operating system
Jason (39:45):
Yeah.
It's the E EOS, right?
I, in the last, I don't know,six months or so, I've become
more exposed to this EOS.
so I have 30 years ofmanufacturing and I have studied
and practiced lean manufacturingand Six Sigma and all of those
process improvementmethodologies.
And I'm a huge believer in them.
And so as I started to see theEOS, I'm like, this is, A lot of
(40:08):
the similar, similarmethodologies, similar tools,
similar cadences.
And so I highly recommend peoplethat are responsible for
businesses, to understand moreabout EOS.
There's software I'm starting tosee more and more, there's a web
based software to be able tohelp you execute and, stay
organized.
Is there any that you guys usein your business that you have
(40:31):
found to be helpful as from onthe software side of things to
run EOS?
Darren (40:35):
we keep it pretty lean.
we're doing a lot of Excelspreadsheets, and, you know, old
school cause man those little 25a month, 50 a month
subscriptions add up prettyquick.
but.
No, we do use like MailChimp andQuickBooks and, some of those
things, but we don't get crazywhen it comes to CRMs and things
(41:00):
like that, I think we're justprobably not at the scale for
needing things like that, but,
Jason (41:06):
just seeing that's getting to be a little more,
broad base, some of the, yeah,some of the softwares that come
alongside of the EOSimplementation.
And, but yeah, definitelyrecommend people, check that
out.
That is in my queue.
I have that book queued up.
So what others, what other booksor
Darren (41:19):
Yeah.
and I was just going to saythat, another major advantage to
me personally of writing theChrist Center company is that it
forced me to make sure that I'mimplementing these things myself
for my company, So I'm not justwriting as, an, like a
consultant.
Like I'm like, like I can'tteach you to do something that
(41:40):
I'm not doing on my end.
And, and some of those areasdoing better than others, but
that's also the power of havingthis accountability group where
we're actually going through thebook.
And, we talk about differentthings that, for example, One of
our guys had, just a realtragedy happened to one of his
(42:02):
team members.
and so we started to talk abouthabit 22, which has to do with
providing pastoral care for youremployees and your team members.
And, we don't have a lot ofemployees, three employees,
including me, but we have othercontractors as well.
and the group challenged eachother.
So let's make sure that of ourteam members, even if they're
(42:24):
third party contractors that wedon't, work with daily, but that
get consistent work from us,let's reach out to them.
And so we did that, reached outto one of our guys works in
India and, We invited him to ourteam meeting this past week and
he was saying, that he's fromCal, he lives in Calcutta where
(42:46):
he's like, Oh, mother Teresa,yo, yeah.
Mother Teresa.
And, and good Friday coming.
he thought that our Easter wasthe whole thing was called good
Friday.
Um, and he was saying that hewas getting ready to go to the
temple to go worship thisgoddess, this coming weekend
while we're doing Easter.
but he just said, I'm S I thankyou so much.
(43:07):
Nobody.
people never reach out to melike this and want to find out
about my family and want to justfind out about me as a person.
And then he let us pray for himand pray for his family.
And,
Jason (43:20):
What an incredible example of everything you're
talking about.
What an incredible example.
Wow.
That's amazing.
Darren (43:27):
Yeah.
Cause what pastor is going toget access to minister?
You know what I
Jason (43:32):
none to the guy in India who's practicing and grew up,
probably practicing Hindu and noexposure to the Christian faith
or Christians except forwhatever he's heard.
that's probably completelyupside down.
Praise the Lord for that.
That's awesome.
Darren (43:47):
and that's not yet.
And we didn't just.
Go on a mission trip to India,have a one time encounter with
this guy, and we're never goingto see him again.
he's on our payroll.
we have influence with this man.
And, I just love, but that cameout of having some
accountability for going aswe're going through this book
(44:09):
and these habits to have a groupof other Christian business
people that are serious aboutimplementing these.
Like I can't implement some, Ican't teach something that I'm
not doing myself.
Jason (44:21):
right.
That's
Darren (44:21):
know what I mean?
And that was just one of theinstances of that.
Jason (44:24):
have a question.
Leadership question for you.
I always ask this questionbecause I want us to learn from
each other.
Darren, when you think back toearly on in your leadership
journey, what was something thatyou struggled with as a young
leader?
And did you overcome it?
Is it something you stillstruggle with?
And what advice would you havefor somebody who struggles with
(44:47):
this particular issue as a youngleader?
Darren (44:50):
I think, because so much of my identity became wrapped up
in performance.
And once I came into the airforce and it was like, Oh,
there's ranks and there'sribbons and metals and, awards
and all these kinds of things.
And that was just like, Perfectfor my flesh, and just that self
(45:12):
righteous part of me that wantsto just prove that I'm worthy,
you know, prove that I reallymatter.
And so one of the symptoms ofthat was that I felt like I kind
of had to do it all myself and Ihad nobody could do it better
than me.
And which was just ridiculous,but in some cases I could do it
(45:36):
better than the other person,but they're not getting any
opportunity.
To grow, to develop and plus mytime is not unlimited.
And I really ran into this whenI was trying to build this
business is because I was theproofreader.
Like I was the one that had todo the editing.
(45:57):
I was the one that, so at onepoint, when it really hit me
that Darren, this has got tostop was we went to my family
reunion and drove from Houstonup to Kentucky.
And I was proofreading amanuscript all the way there and
all the way back in a movingvehicle.
(46:17):
And, it was just ridiculous.
And the Lord said, spoke to myheart and said, I must increase,
you must decrease, like John theBaptist said,
Jason (46:26):
I love that verse.
I love that
Darren (46:27):
and I think, and so how does he actually increase like
in practice generally is throughother people, right?
Like we decide, okay, I don'thave to be Superman anymore.
I can decrease and allow him toincrease through the other
people around me.
and yeah, I might not feel likeI'm getting as much of the
(46:48):
credit because, I'm not the onethat actually delivers this to
the client anymore.
and so it just made us certainlymore profitable, but it really
reduced my anxiety level, andjust that overwhelm of when
everything is on your shoulders.
to deliver, it's a real trap.
(47:10):
And so God really just broke meout of that.
Jason (47:13):
I think in my experience, that is a super common struggle
because if you're a really goodindividual contributor, that's
who's going to get promoted.
And that means that you wereexceptional and you got the work
done.
You were productive and learningto be productive through other
(47:33):
people.
and delegate and teach and letgo.
And you just made a reallyinteresting comment too.
That's a struggle for someleaders is that you said, I'm
not the one now to be able todeliver that finished work.
That glory is going to somebodyelse now, but as mature leaders,
I think, and I had to go throughthe same process where now I can
(47:55):
sit back and get excited forthat person and watching them.
get the glory for that successand say, okay, this is good.
And feel like I don't have to behere every minute of the day for
this to hold together.
that's where leadership maturitystarts to happen.
Developing a team, you can begone and things are going to
keep going.
(48:15):
they're not going to fall apart.
And so many leaders I've workedwith or around that are like,
they, I don't know.
They just have to feel so neededthat if they're not there, all
the decisions have to comethrough them and it's a broken,
unbiblical, selfish model.
So
Darren (48:33):
That's right.
Yeah, there's another great bookcalled the linchpin by Seth
Godin and I really love thatconcept because the Lord just
has really made me feel like I'min that linchpin role in a lot
of the places that I've been inwhere the linchpin is not The
(48:53):
linchpin is not the, theglorified, like when you look at
the, whatever's moving, thelinchpin just keeps keeps the
wheel from falling off.
it's that little tiny, I've gotone on my dolly.
That's the only linchpin I canthink of that I have, here, it's
that little small role, but alot does pivot on that role.
(49:18):
And there, there is certainly aimportant role that I have in
the places where God puts me,but that role is not to, To get
the glory and to get the credit.
And so just overcoming that hasbeen, like I don't need to be
the charismatic leader on stage.
(49:38):
I'm not going to be that person.
That's way out in front.
And, that everybody has to, toaspire to and everything.
Like I'll just, I'll be thatlinchpin wherever the Lord wants
me.
You know what I mean?
Jason (49:53):
Hey, a couple more questions for you before we wrap
up.
One thing I always like to askis, Let's say that you had a
new, a young leader, just gottheir first promotion.
They're going to be leading ateam, a department.
And they reached out, said,Darren, I'll buy you a cup of
coffee.
Come and give me your bestadvice for first time leading a
team.
what advice would you give themin that situation?
Darren (50:16):
I would say stay surrounded with senior leaders.
stay surrounded and likeactively invite them to speak
into the situations that you'redealing with.
the temptation is gonna be tofeel like, Oh, if I make it seem
like I don't have it alltogether, then they're not going
(50:37):
to respect me.
And that's the, that's a lie.
Cause it's not, they feel sogratified.
They're going to respect you alot more by being the one that
has the chutzpah to come tosomebody that has been around
longer than you have to be ableto help navigate the situation.
(50:58):
Even if you feel like, you'redoing it just to invite them
into your life.
Like even if it's something youfeel like you really probably
could figure out on your own, tojust keep those lines of
communication open, causeotherwise you end up like Raya
Boom and the Bible.
where says that, he followed theadvice of just the young men
(51:23):
that were not seasoned, theyweren't experienced and they,
and that he did not listen tothe voice of the elders.
And he ended up ripping Thewhole kingdom apart.
that was, yeah, he, if he wasthe linchpin, like he, the
whole, everything just fell offat that point.
Everything was ripped apart, butit started with him refusing to
(51:45):
listen to people who had beenaround longer than him.
Jason (51:48):
You said at the very beginning, and that's why I had
to laugh that, and it's truethat sometimes we think as young
leaders coming into a newsituation, man, if I ask a
question, they're going to thinkI don't know what I'm doing.
I'm here to tell you, they knowthat you don't know what you're
doing.
And and I did it too.
I'm not, throwing stones,getting a mentor, asking for
(52:11):
that input.
But.
Great advice, man.
That is super, super important.
And I've also found, and I thinkyou would, I'm guessing you
would agree, Darren, when youask, they're eager to help.
99 percent of the time, they'relike, yeah, I'd be happy to sit
down and have a coffee with you,or, have a one to one meeting
with you, or whatever, and giveyou some I have a guy who was a
mentor of mine years ago, andhe's retired.
(52:34):
We, we worked together.
I left that company.
He retired.
There's nothing in it for him.
But when I email him and I havemaybe once a year or so, I'll
say I've got something prettymajor.
I'd like to run by you a hundredpercent of the time.
He said, yeah, let's jump on acall.
he's retired.
I, what, but, and I'm sograteful for that because this
(52:56):
guy's yeah.
lot of wisdom from him.
So good advice.
Hey, Darren, how can people,reach out to you and I'll put,
content.
I'm going to link to the bookand the website on here, but if
people want to connect with youand network.
What are some good ways to dothat?
And we'll be sure to sharethose.
Darren (53:13):
Yeah, if you're interested in publishing a book,
you can go to highbridgebooks.
com.
You can email me at darren athighbridgebooks.
com.
If you are interested indiscovering and applying God's
will for business, go totheologyofbusiness.
com.
Tons and tons of free resourcesthere.
And if you want to go deeper, Iwould strongly recommend getting
(53:38):
this book, the Christ centeredcompany, which is actually my
third book written specificallyfor marketplace Christians.
The other two being marketinglike Jesus and the marketplace
Christian.
Jason (53:49):
That's great, man.
I'm excited.
I'm excited because this is newinformation for me.
As I said, before we are alittle bit ago, you and I just
met, someone connected us, whichI'm very grateful for.
So I am looking forward to alsobuying that book and developing
my own thinking further on that.
Darren, thank you for taking thetime out of your busy schedule
(54:09):
away from your family today andcoming on the show and sharing
with us, brother.
I pray that the Lord willcontinue to use you, to bless
workplace believers, to glorifyhim, around the country, around
the world, even, in, in advanceof his kingdom.
So thank you, brother.
Appreciate it.
Darren (54:25):
Yeah.
And thanks for what you'redoing.
fighting the good fight anddiscipling and equipping
marketplace leaders.
That's what we need.
So thanks for what you're doing,Jason.
Jason (54:36):
It's a joy.
It's a joy.
All right.
Thanks, brother.
Speaker 4 (54:39):
And thank you for listening in to the podcast
today.
I pray that the content andrecommended resources are a help
to you as you strive to honorChrist in your work.
I hope you will join me againnext month as we meet another
leader working to advance thekingdom in their workplace.
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