October 8, 2025 • 37 mins
In this honest and inspiring episode of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Heather Blundell, UK CEO at Grayling, and mum of two young boys.
Heather shares her personal journey of combining ambitious leadership with parenthood — from taking work calls during bath time to confidently blocking out school pick-ups in her diary. She reflects on the pivotal karate-class moment that shifted her approach to presence, and why setting boundaries has made her a more intentional, effective leader.
A working parent at the top of her game, Heather offers a refreshingly real perspective on leadership, family life, and the cultural responsibility CEOs hold to model balance.
Together, they explore:
✔️ The powerful realisation that changed Heather’s approach to presence as a parent and leader
✔️ Why she sets more boundaries now as a CEO than in previous roles
✔️ How becoming a parent made her a more decisive, compassionate, and time-efficient leader
✔️ The cultural ripple effect when senior leaders model balance at work
✔️ How to let go of perfectionism and focus on what truly matters
✔️ Navigating playground imposter syndrome as a senior leader
✔️ Why parenting can enrich, rather than hinder, leadership ambition
What You’ll Learn in This Episode
🔹 How to set transparent boundaries at a senior level without losing credibility
🔹 Why presence, not perfection, creates impact at work and home
🔹 How parenting can sharpen your leadership clarity, efficiency, and empathy
🔹 Practical ways to lead by example and shape organisational culture
🔹 Why “having it all” is a myth — and how deliberate choices make the difference
Show Notes:
- Connect with Heather Blundell on LinkedIn
- Learn more about Grayling UK here
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus Fellowship.
More BCSC episodes you might love:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazingpeople like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male, middle classpeople leading our organizations.
Wemust change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. Weexist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. Wehave free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents Who have big dreams
for their careers But don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'llexplore
what your career aspirationsare and you'll get advice from senior
leaders who are also workingparents about how to achieve those
aspirations. You'll get newideas to combine your hopes for your
careers with your hope foryour family. Andyou are supported
by people who are experiencingwhat you're experiencing yourself.
I'm really delighted that alarger majority of our fellows have
made tangible changesfollowing the program. Bethat becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with.
The courage that they instillin each. Other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
(02:23):
Today I'm chatting to HeatherBlundell. We talk about her life
as a CEO. She shares with ushow she's setting boundaries and
why. Actually she's settingmore boundaries now as a CEO than
she did in previous roles.What she does to be present with
her children and how shewrites through life's imperfections
(02:44):
and the complexity andmessiness of it all. I really enjoyed.
It was such an honestconversation and I found her personally
incredibly inspiring. I'm sureyou will enjoy hearing from her.
A very warm welcome, Heather,to the podcast. It's great to have
you with us. Why don't westart with you introducing who you
are, what you do for work andwho is in your family.
Thank you for having me. I'mHeather Blundell. I'm the UK CEO
(03:09):
for Grayling Communications,which is a specialist PR public affairs
agency. And I've been in theUK CEO role for about 18 months.
And I have two little boysthat keep me on my toes. They are
four and six.
That's a very good age. And isthere anything that you used to believe
(03:29):
about combining a seniorcareer with children that you've
changed your mind on?
Oh, gosh. Well, pretty mucheverything. And I think actually
the narrative on this haschanged a lot, particularly for women,
which I think is helpful. Ihope that gone are the days where
we are told that women canhave it all, because I actually,
(03:49):
I don't think that's a helpfulsentiment. And I also don't think
that men can either. I thinkthat what I would say to myself and
what I've learned over theyears and continue to learn, because
anything I say, I'm on anabsolute journey with this, particularly
with my children beingrelatively young, is that there is
going to be compromise inevery area of your life when you're
(04:10):
working and also raisingchildren. But I think that I hope
that I've been on a journeywhere I can be a bi more deliberate
about that compromise andwhere I am making compromises and
transparent around it as well.So my working week, I actually have
to be away from my childrenfor a couple of days during the week.
(04:30):
But I think I have learnedthat the time I do have with them
to be fully present and aspresent as I can be, so not being
constantly on my phone or onmy laptop. And I learned that actually
between leaving my last joband this job, I had quite a powerful
experience. I was put ongardening leave, which I didn't Had
never happened to me before,and I didn't think was going to happen.
(04:52):
And everyone was telling mehow lucky I am, but I actually felt
quite freaked out by it. And Ifelt like I had really lost this
huge part of who I was becauseI wasn't working. It wasn't hugely
long, it was a couple ofmonths. And I really struggled for
the first couple of weeks andwas just filling my days with chaos,
really. And then I went towatch my two little boys. I picked
(05:15):
them up from school on aWednesday and I went to go and watch
them in their karate class,which is about half an hour long.
And I realized that I justhadn't been watching them properly.
I'd try and go every week, butI'd be I'd duck out for a quick call
or I'd be on my laptop, or I'dbe on my phone and I'd wave when
they were doing their bit. ButI wasn't watching their interactions
(05:35):
with other children. I wasn'twatching how they took direction
from the teacher. And I justhad this absolute epiphany moment
of I can never go back towhere I was before. Nothing is ever
going to be so important thatI need to take half an hour during
their karate class to write aproposal. But I just don't think
I would have ever had thatrealization if it hadn't always been
forced on me. So that wasquite a powerful experience in terms
(05:58):
of having it all doesn'texist. But we can prioritize, particularly
within our family life andalso within our work life as well.
Hmm that' very powerful. AndI think it's interesting because
you then started a new job andnot just any new job, you went straight
into the CEO role after that.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think there's somethinginteresting about setting yourself
(06:20):
up with the right boundaries.And I'm sure SEO job doesn't have
that many boundaries.
Yeah.
However, having had thatpowerful realization, how did you
set yourself up differentlybefore even entering that chair?
I do think I have in this rolethat I have now, I do think I have
much better boundaries than Iever have before. Mainly because
(06:43):
if you are in a leadershipposition, there often isn't anyone
else to blame apart fromyourself. So if you want to create
a workplace and a culturewhere people can thrive at home and
at work, that responsibilityis now on me. And I take that for
parents. I take that forpeople who have caring responsibilities
in my workforce and foreveryone that wants to have balanced
(07:04):
work life and an integratedwork life so that I can retain the
absolute, attract and retainthe absolute best people within the
agency. But I think theboundaries that I've certainly put
in place, I think has almostfor me certainly come with a confidence,
I think. I became a managingdirector at a global agency when
I was 29. I had my first babywhen I was 30, and I think I definitely
(07:25):
didn't ever want people to seeme differently. So I never felt confident
enough to actually say topeople, on this day, I do pick up.
On this day, I do drop off. Onthis day, I do bath time. And I really
try not work in these twohours. I was in the school playground
on a conference call, tryingto put myself on and off mute or
even with my kids in the bathand I'd be sat there on the side
(07:47):
of my laptop with a blurredscreen, you know, all of this stuff.
And actually I just neverwanted to go back to that because
if I'm doing that, everyoneelse will think they need to do that.
And you can't have shamearound our children, I can't have
shame around our family life.So these are very basic practical
things. But I have only reallyfelt confident enough to do them
within the last 18 months,couple of years is to even just block
(08:11):
out the time verytransparently in my diary, anyone
can see it in my diary. I'mdoing pickup, I'm doing drop off
at this time, can't book callsin this time, I can't do a pitch
at this time. And I often willsay to people, you know, I'm picking
the boys up, I'm taking themto their football, their karate,
whatever it is they're doing,but I'll be back online at half seven
(08:31):
eight. But then I also knowthat I have allowed myself that time.
I'm not going to be resentfulabout having to pick up some of the
stuff that's a bit later,which actually could be quite helpful.
I can often review stuff andhave it ready for people first thing
in the morning. So I actuallythink if there's a group of us working
in that integrated way thatactually not saying we provide a
(08:52):
24 hour service, but it canalmost feel like it sometimes. But
I think I remember even just acouple of weeks ago, someone really
senior, one of my clientsasked for a call with me and for
the first time ever, I said, Iactually can't do it at that time,
I'm picking the boys up. Can Ipossibly do it two hours later? And
of course they said yes. Butfor me to have got to that stage,
I've been a parent for a whilenow and I'm only just feeling able
(09:14):
to do that. But I think I nowsee and feel the responsibility that
if I don't do it, othersaren't going to do it as well and
we will not have the agencyand the culture that I'm desperate
for us to have. So I do needto lead from the, the forefront in
that respect.
You're absolutely right. But Ithink what you're really honest about
is that the shift had tohappen in your own brain.
(09:35):
Yeah, yeah. No one else isgoing to do that for you.
Exactly. And I think it's soeasy to feel as a victim. And I'm
not blaming anyone who isfeeling as a victim because it's
really tough. The world is notdesigned for working parents. And
you have to do this extrawork, not just do your job well,
look after children. Okay. Butalso you need to do the extra work
of crafting your own work lifeand negotiating and so on. So it
(09:56):
is hard. But I think you'reright in that it has to shift in
your own brain and you justhave to make the choice directly.
Yeah. Interesting. And did youalways think that you still become
a CEO with children or didyou, in your mind, have a bit of
a trade off before you startedtrying for babies?
I must admit, I don't thinkI've ever seen it as mutually exclusive.
(10:19):
I've always felt veryambitious and had a very clear sight
of the role that I wantedwithin an agency and that I would.
I felt that I would be good atit. But I've also always known that
I wanted to be a parent and amum. And I think some of the most
powerful things I feel that Ican do for myself and that I can
(10:42):
do for other women is to justactually, just speak really positively.
I mean, it's not a walk in thepark and sometimes it's exhausting
and absolute chaos and I failall over the place. But actually,
they are the two best thingsin my life. The role I have and my
children. And they both bringme a huge amount of joy. I've had
a conversation in the kitchenthis morning, actually with a lovely
(11:05):
lady who's about to leave togo and have a baby. And I just said,
oh, you're just going to havethe best time. And they have, My
children have enriched my lifeand grown me as a person in a way
that I couldn't comprehend.And I feel like my work life now
makes a lot more sense insteadof just beasting myself so I could
go on the occasional niceholiday and have a pair of shoes.
(11:26):
I feel this realresponsibility and purpose. And actually
the thing I feel reallypassionate about is how much better
I am at my job because I'm amom and because I'm a parent. And
I think that it's made way fora lot of compassion and kindness
in my leadership, but also alot of clarity. And if something
(11:48):
isn't working, if we need toshift something, I certainly don't
feel scared of things in a waythat I was before. Because quite
frankly, when you've beenthrough labour and you're raising
a child and you do everythingelse. The stuff bounces off me in
a way that it probably didn'tbefore. And I'm also extremely time
efficient now. I think beforeI had children, I think my working
(12:09):
day, I think I used to mincearound the office having lots of
different conversations. And Ithink I started my work at 6pm and
I don't really mean thatdisrespectfully for anyone who doesn't
have children, but I thinkwhen I'm on a deadline of having
to go and get the kids or Ihave to organise my diary in this
way that is so rigid, I makedecisions really, really quickly.
And I've also had to learn Ican no longer be a perfectionist.
(12:33):
If something's 80% goodenough, let's send it. You know,
let's do the best possible jobthat we can, but also not less perfect.
Be the enemy of good. Andthat's the only way we can do this
when we have children andwe're working as well.
I think a lot of listenerswill find this really helpful to
hear the fact that even you asa CEO in a very, very target driven.
(12:53):
You're in if you don't do ajob well, people are going to be
made redundant because you'renot going to have the money in the
organization. Yeah, but I'mjust interested in how like I understand
rationally that what you'resaying about letting go and being
okay with 80% but how you areable to do that or maybe when you're
not able to do that. I justwould love to learn a bit more because
(13:15):
that is tough and it's toughto look at it in that way when you
are the person the box stops with.
Yeah, for sure. And I feelyou're totally right of how you summarized
it. If the business doesn'tperform, then I can't promote people,
I can't hire people. We haveto let people go. I mean, that's
an enormous responsibility andone that I take very seriously. And
(13:35):
I'm sure that anyone thatworks with me would probably say
that it doesn't feel like Ioften say 80% is good enough. And
I do know I have highstandards. But I also think that
particularly within theindustry that I work in, which is
very, very fast paced, we billtime. So that's what I sell to clients,
is people's time. I don'tactually have a problem making people
(13:58):
work. I have a problem makingpeople work less. And so it is being
able to provide that clarityof okay, yeah, we could spend another
five hours on this proposaland that would be really nice to
have. Is it absolutelyessential? Sometimes, yes. If it's
wrong or not good enough, yes.But if it's a nice to have and it's
(14:18):
going to keep me away fromsomething in my personal life or
family life that's reallyimportant, then that isn't a compromise
that I would make personallyor expect anyone within the workforce
to make. But I would say thatI've been on an absolute journey
with that and I have made somereal mistakes with that. And in terms
of. Since becoming a parent,one of the things that just sticks
(14:40):
out in my head is I missed myeldest son's first ever sports day
because we had a veryimportant new business pitch. You
know, we'd obviously tried tochange the date, but they just wouldn't
budge. I think we'd even saidI couldn't make it because I had
this engagement at the schoolanyway. But I went to this new business
(15:00):
pitch. We didn't win. And Iremember finding out that. I remember
feeling absolutely awfulbecause he obviously asked me where
I was and then a week later tofind out that I had made that decision
and we still hadn't won. Itjust. It's a very powerful reminder
that. And this isn't meant ina, you know, aggressive way. No one
(15:22):
else cares. My children are myresponsibility. If I'm not going
to attend a sports day, aclient's never going to give me the
gig just because I made thatsacrifice. That's on me. That's my
decision. And that was thewrong decision. But I'm really glad
that that happened to mebecause it was like a thunderbolt
of this can never happenagain. And I sort of. You tell yourself
stuff sometimes when you'vegot very young children, even awful
things that they won'tremember, or I'll be more present
(15:45):
when they're older. Andactually. But the habits and they
have to be ingrained at thisearly stage. It's not like all of
a sudden they're going to turn8 and 10 and I can put all these
boundaries in place. You know,something catastrophic would have
probably have happened beforethen. So I'm glad it happened, but
it was a difficult moment, butI learned a lot from it. And I hope
that that. That's certainlysomething that doesn't happen to
(16:07):
me again and I will definitelyavoid doing it. But those moments
happen all the time.
Absolutely. And I think theother thing that comes through in
the story is that it's apersonal thing. So the sports day
clearly it sounds like yourfamily is super sporty with lots
of.
I know I have made them soundvery active. Just boys with a lot
of energy.
Life is a lot easier when kidsare very tired in the evening, in
(16:27):
my experience. I think it'salso. It's such a personal thing
for someone else. It might bea piano or recital or whatever it
is, but it comes down to yourvalues and your gut feeling if you
really want to be there andyou have to do something against
those values that it will sitwith you. Like in way you describe.
Yeah, yeah, you mentionedabout presence there and again, coming
(16:49):
back to the buck stopping withyou type situation. How do you practically
make sure that you are not onyour phone, you are not looking like
you might still be thinking onyour way home about that big pitch
coming up tomorrow and we feeleveryone is prepared and everyone
knows what they're meant to door. Oh, you have got this additional
(17:09):
small idea that should beconsidered. How do you have moments
of being present with thechildren regardless?
Yeah, I certainly am, I'msure. Still on my phone all the time.
I remember when my son wasvery young, you know, those little
sort of like toy plasticlaptops. And I remember he was sat
there playing and he was onhis laptop and he was going, I'm
(17:31):
Mummy, I'm Mummy, I'm verybusy. And everyone was laughing.
In my mind I was like, gosh,that's how he sees me, rather than
someone who's playing with himor being fun or whatever. And it
was a. It was a sweet moment,but again, that was a bit of a. That's.
He's repeating what he'sseeing me do. And of course my kids
see me on my laptop and I'mproud that they see me working and
(17:52):
that they know what I do. ButI think I was given some really amazing
advice by my godmother,actually, when I went from having
one to two. Because I thinkthe other thing we need to be honest
about is you can have a lot ofsupport at home and a really good,
you know, network, etc. But alot of the mental load still stops
(18:14):
with. Stops with me. And Isort of carry these things in my
head all the time, like WorldBook Days and a present on Saturday
and spellings and have we evenwritten in the reading folder this
week? And you know, thingslike that, they just go on in my
mind absolutely constantly.There's nothing that I can do to
stop that. But there are alsothings that I felt that I was doing
(18:35):
well. She, my godmotherobserved that I was doing that were
hidden and possiblyunnecessary. And she was super senior
at l'Oreal. And because I'maway from my children for a couple
of days and the week and, youknow, I do two drop offs a week and
one pickup. I think I wasdoing things to try and compensate
(18:57):
and make myself feel better,like that, that I was a good mom.
And actually there were thingsthat they would just never ever know
I was doing. And such basicthings like who cares who sews their
names onto their labels or ifyou just get one of those stamps,
you don't need to do all thosesort of, you know, perfect things.
If I turn around to them whenthey're 18 and they say, you were
(19:18):
never there. And I say, ohyeah, but you know, look at those
lovely packed lunches I used.You know, make your name onto your
labels. Like, no, they want meon the sidelines at the football
pitch, they want me there atthe parents evening, not dialed in
on a phone on the table. So Iher her advice of being present.
And you know, the time that Ido have with them, even, you know,
(19:39):
at the weekends, I'm justabsolutely all in with them. And
that comes at a compromise tomyself. You know, I work full time
and at the weekends I'm verylittle by choice, have very little
time for myself or to doanything other than with the children.
But I also am really quitedeliberate in that decision making
because I know my eldest issix. I know in four or five years
(20:02):
he'll probably be out a wholeday on a Saturday, like with a play
date with a friend or he'll goto a sleepover. So I've actually
got this like tiny littlewindow with them and I need to be
quite purposeful in how Imaximize that. So I don't need to
be there seven days a week,every minute of every day. But you
know, those two hours that Ihave with them three times during
(20:23):
the week that we read that weplay in the garden, that we do bedtime,
and then I'll pick up thethree or four hours worth of work
that I've got to do and atweekends that we're really present
together. So I think it'sabout just being very intentional
about my presence and notdoing things that make me feel like
I'm a good mummy, that areactually jus, They don't mean anything.
(20:45):
Absolutely. What you'redescribing sounds as a lot of hard
work. And I know a lot ofsenior people work in that way. I
have an agenda which is I wantmore People with caring responsibilities
in the roles, the type ofroles that you're in. And I was wondering
whether there's anything thatyou can share with our listeners
about why is it worth youhaving such an intense life? Why
(21:10):
not stay at home, relax, go toyoga during the day? I'm not saying
it's hard work, but I'm surewe all have fantasies. Maybe it's
just me, because I'm recordingthis as I'm quite pregnant of take
A week out to be, Although mypartner would say I would be a terrible
housewife. And he's absolutelyright. Yeah, yeah. So I'm more interested,
why is it worth it? Why areyou doing this?
(24:46):
Yeah. And I think lots ofpeople do, and lots of my brilliant
friends have made choices tostay at home and be present with
the children. And that iswork. That is labor. That is incredibly,
incredibly hard work. If youtold me to look after my children
for seven days a week, I thinkI'd be much more exhausted than I
would be running a companywith 200 people in it. I am flat
(25:10):
out exhausted at the end ofevery weekend. So, you know, I certainly
don't think that that is aneasy option and that I have the hard
option at all. I think it'sabout where you find your joy and
where you find your purpose. Iremember starting my career, I was
absolutely consumed withhaving. I think I wanted five children.
At one stage, I'd still quitelike five children. And I was just
(25:31):
so focused on, like, theearliest opportunity that I could
have a baby and, say, afamily. And I started work, and it
was this absolute revelationto me that I'd managed to fall into
this career where I justreally, I felt really quite good
at it. And, you know, I'dalways been okay academically and
I'd done very well. I found mystudies very solitary. And all of
(25:52):
a sudden I was in this dynamicworkforce working with a team. It
just woke me up in a way thatI felt I hadn't been woken up before
and I wanted more of it. Andit was this real shift actually in
my life and actually led to,you know, when I was in my twenties,
quite a considerablerelationship breakdown because I
(26:13):
changed as a person. I wentfrom being this person that I really
did just want to have a familyand stay at home. And that was my
whole dream and that, youknow, we were embarking on that journey
together, and then all of asudden my career just absolutely
took off and I just found thislicense to operate that I hadn't
before. So, you know, I'M notashamed to admit that my career and
my work brings me an awful lotof joy. It brings me a lot of energy
(26:36):
and I'm really proud that, youknow, about 75% of the time I feel
good at it and also I'm justexperiencing this now, but the purpose
that comes with that has beenvery empowering for me. Just this
weekend that gone by, one ofmy clients is the owner of a big
UK football club and they hada big match on at Wembley. My eldest
(26:58):
is football mad and, you know,we were able to be in the executive
box and, you know, he met theplayers and the managers and it was
kind of the first moment whereI took a step back and I just thought,
you would just never have thisif I hadn't been able to bring this
opportunity. And I'd hadsomething quite similar with him
a couple of months back andwhich I've had some great feedback
(27:21):
on. This actually, this was areal learning moment for me as well,
is that I've never had anyproblems with either of my two wanting
to go to school or nursery.But my eldest was having a little
bit of a tough time recentlyand it wasn't school, it was one
of those sort of, you know,holiday camps I booked him into and
he just stood in front of thegates and he just said, I am not
(27:42):
going. And it was, you know,one of those moments where I could
sort of thrash this out withyou, but I'm not going to get anywhere.
And actually you've never donethis to me before. I'm always telling
you that I will listen to youif you have a problem. This is a
moment for me to listen. I hada huge day and I wasn't even in London.
So I said, well, you're goingto have to come to work with Mummy
if you, if you're not going.He said, I will come to work with
(28:03):
you. So anyway, we just off wepopped and I walked into the office
with him. I had back to backclient meetings. I had an all agency
meeting with my 200 staff and,you know, actually Eyal walked into
the office with him and said,I've got childcare issues, which
I think every single parent inthe office was like, oh, you know,
thank goodness, happens toeveryone. He sat in the front row
(28:24):
at that meeting where I had,you know, my all agency and we presented
and he got to see me inaction, as it were, and to, you know,
listen to, you know, the workand he loved it and everyone, you
know, obviously made a lovelyfuss of him. In fact, he went home
and said that, you know,mummy's work's like a party, which
is probably not that helpful,but I'm glad that's how he experienced
(28:45):
it. But, you know, that wasjust a moment of being really quite
real, but for the first time.And obviously they're still quite
little, but for them to have alittle bit of insight as to, you
know, what I do and who I amand, you know, hopefully, you know,
as a family, you know, we canbenefit from it.
I love that story and I'mhoping for your sake he didn't have
(29:06):
too good a time so that hegoes again at some point.
I know. Exactly, exactly.
Well done. I love the couragegoing through that. I'm interested
in just your wider experiencewithin the playground and so on.
So there are obviously lotsand lots of different patterns of
setting up family and career.Sometimes the people on our Fellowship
(29:27):
program tell us that theyexperience a bit of stigma from people
who make different choices,perhaps that are to put the career
on a back burner, which is, asyou say, an okay choice to make,
if that's what's right foryou. I'm just interested if you've
ever faced that and if. Yes,how you dealt with it.
Yeah, massively and probablydealt with it very badly is the honest
(29:50):
answer to that. And I think Idid. I did a panel a couple of months
ago on imposter syndrome. WhenI was preparing for the panel, my
absolute honest thought wasthat I don't feel like I have a huge
amount of imposter syndrome inmy work life. I really struggle in
that. The other area of mylife in terms of I probably feel
(30:12):
more imposter syndrome in theplayground than I do at work. I have
done absolutely wild things. Ipretend to be on work phone calls
if I don't have anyone tostand with, because I've actually
got, you know, a couple ofreally lovely friends at the school
now. But that's taken me alittle while and I'm doing more drop
offs and pickups now than Iever have. But, you know, to build
(30:33):
those relationships, you doneed to, to be there and, you know,
at the parties and things.I've done absolutely crazy things
like pretend that I'm on thephone because I'm scared that no
one will speak to me. I mean,I would just never do that work.
I would never lack any ofthat, of that confidence at work.
I have lied and said I'm notfull time, I'm part of time. Just,
you know, for. Because I don'twant people to think, oh, My goodness.
(30:56):
You know, she works because Ilive outside of London, so I've got
a very long commute, whichmeans I have to stay in London. So,
you know, not only am I fulltime, but I'm often away from my
children. I travel a lot as awoman and as a mum, you know, you
are very aware of that. Imean, I've had fascinating conversations
with, you know, some dads.It's often a different world for
(31:17):
them and they have justaccepted that, you know, they aren't
in the playground, they don'thave those relationships and this
is their role. My honest. Andsome people may disagree with me
here, but I do feel that that,that feels different for a woman
and for a mummy, especiallywith two young children. So, you
know, I'm still working thatthrough and I'm still gaining in
confidence with it. But I, youknow, I do feel more and more comfortable
(31:41):
all the time and I have madesome good friends and I've, you know,
I've volunteered for a fewthings at the school that are manageable.
And, you know, I'm certainlynot going to be on the PTA anytime
soon, but if you need a helperat a Christmas disco for two hours,
I can always do that. So, youknow, I don't know how I'm seeing
through other people's eyes.I'm sure that there are judgments
(32:04):
because we all judge oneanother and I'm even quite conscious
sometimes about, you know,what I'm wearing when I walk into
the school assembly becauseI'm about to go to a client meeting
and throwing a pair oftrainers on instead of, you know,
just trying to fit in a bitmore. So there was imposter syndrome
and trying to fit in in everyarea of our life. But I hope is that
I, you know, as I grow as inmy journey as a parent and also in
(32:26):
my career, that, you know, Ijust feel more and more comfortable
in each evolution of my life.But that is very much still a work
in progress.
There's a lot of wisdom there.We're coming towards the end of our
conversation and I wanted toask you if you could share two or
three things that if someone'slistening to this, feels inspired
and would like to at somepoint in their career, become a CEO
(32:51):
while still having relativelyyoung children, what would be two
or three things they could dothis week to start putting them on
the right path.
Particularly as a woman, Ithink we SoI'mmoreinterested,whyisitworthit?WhyareyoudoingthisIthinkwehave
arealresponsibilitythatifwedowanttoseetheshapeofleadershiptableschange,you know,thatwedoactually
need to policyintoaction.SosinceI'vebeeninthisrole,we'veoverhauledourmaternitybenefits,we'veoverhauledourpaternitybenefits.Thatissoimportant.Youknow,paternityneedsto bebetterfor
(33:20):
mensothatthey cantaketime outofthebusiness,and menneed tofeelableto
take time out the business. Wefeel so nervous about taking maternity
leaves because we think itwill set us back in terms of our
career and our progress. Andmen feel exactly the same. So I've
worked somewhere where theyhad an extremely generous paternity
policy and none of the mentook it in full or they chunked it
up, which is actually quitedisruptive. Instead of just taking
(33:42):
the same amount of time out ofwork as a woman. So, you know, enhancing
that, you know, miscarriagepolicies, fertility benefits, menopause
policies, More women are nowdropping out of the workforce at
that stage of life than theyare bringing children into the world.
We have an aging workforcewith caring responsibilities. You
(34:03):
know, my father has beencaring for his parents, and he probably
has to have more time off workwith caring responsibilities than
I do with two young childrennow. You know, we've got to move
at the times. We are now in,you know, a place of work where we
can potentially have fourgenerations working within our workforce.
And we need to protect people.Otherwise, you know, we are just
(34:23):
going to have these hiddenpeople that are just going to fall
away who are such talentwithin our agency. So, you know,
to be inspired by that, thatwe can be part of a movement and
part of a change. Andactually, I believe we have a responsibility
if we want to see the worldchange, for us to step up and take
those leadership positionswhen we do have them, to be the change
that we want to see. So I feelvery positive about that, to speak
(34:45):
very positively about havingchildren. You know, my sister's just
had a baby, and the amount oftimes I would just overheard conversations
with her about, you know,going back to work and sleepless
nights, and yet that allhappens. But it's also a total joy
and, you know, makes the worldand your work make a lot of sense.
And also particularly, youknow, returning back after having
(35:07):
children. I'd love to banphrases like 'baby brain' and 'fog'.
And, you know, actually, mostwomen and men I see returning to
the workforce are betterversions of themselves. You know,
post a bit of time out of thebusiness, more time, efficient, more
clarity, braver. And, youknow, for us to not think that this
means the end, this can meanthe beginning of something and a
(35:30):
brand new journey and to feelsort of empowered and excited about
that. And I hope that doesn'tsound toxically positive of me. I
do know that it's reallytough. My four year old woke up three
times last night. You know,it's exhausting still. But there
is just so much that's good aswell and I do think that that does
need to be embraced.
Very well said. Thank you somuch. Heather, if people want to
(35:50):
find out more about yourorganisation or about you, where
should they head?
To the Grayling UK website.
Perfect.
Thank you very much. Thank youso much for having me.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you. Thank you so
much and I always love to hearfrom our listeners. If you want to
connect with me.On LinkedIn,just go to FerenaHefti and I'll be
delighted to hear yourfeedback and your suggestions or
just have you say hi.Likewise,if you do feel passionately
about gender equality and youwant to support a female led podcast,
then please do leave a reviewand share it with a friend.Just because.Because
at the moment podcasting isstill A very, very male dominated
environment.Most of the topcharging podcasts are led by men.
Ireallylove all the peoplewho've joined from the podcast our
fellowship program and if youwant to do the same, then please
head over to leadersclass.orgFellowship in order to get access
to a community of support tohelp you combine ambitious career
with young children togetherwith people who have your back. See
you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazingpeople like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male, middle classpeople leading our organizations.
Wemust change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. Weexist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. Wehave free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents Who have big dreams
for their careers But don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'llexplore
what your career aspirationsare and you'll get advice from senior
leaders who are also workingparents about how to achieve those
aspirations. You'll get newideas to combine your hopes for your
careers with your hope foryour family. Andyou are supported
by people who are experiencingwhat you're experiencing yourself.
I'm really delighted that alarger majority of our fellows have
made tangible changesfollowing the program. Bethat becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with.
The courage that they instillin each. Other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
(02:23):
Today I'm chatting to HeatherBlundell. We talk about her life
as a CEO. She shares with ushow she's setting boundaries and
why. Actually she's settingmore boundaries now as a CEO than
she did in previous roles.What she does to be present with
her children and how shewrites through life's imperfections
(02:44):
and the complexity andmessiness of it all. I really enjoyed.
It was such an honestconversation and I found her personally
incredibly inspiring. I'm sureyou will enjoy hearing from her.
A very warm welcome, Heather,to the podcast. It's great to have
you with us. Why don't westart with you introducing who you
are, what you do for work andwho is in your family.
Thank you for having me. I'mHeather Blundell. I'm the UK CEO
(03:09):
for Grayling Communications,which is a specialist PR public affairs
agency. And I've been in theUK CEO role for about 18 months.
And I have two little boysthat keep me on my toes. They are
four and six.
That's a very good age. And isthere anything that you used to believe
(03:29):
about combining a seniorcareer with children that you've
changed your mind on?
Oh, gosh. Well, pretty mucheverything. And I think actually
the narrative on this haschanged a lot, particularly for women,
which I think is helpful. Ihope that gone are the days where
we are told that women canhave it all, because I actually,
(03:49):
I don't think that's a helpfulsentiment. And I also don't think
that men can either. I thinkthat what I would say to myself and
what I've learned over theyears and continue to learn, because
anything I say, I'm on anabsolute journey with this, particularly
with my children beingrelatively young, is that there is
going to be compromise inevery area of your life when you're
(04:10):
working and also raisingchildren. But I think that I hope
that I've been on a journeywhere I can be a bi more deliberate
about that compromise andwhere I am making compromises and
transparent around it as well.So my working week, I actually have
to be away from my childrenfor a couple of days during the week.
(04:30):
But I think I have learnedthat the time I do have with them
to be fully present and aspresent as I can be, so not being
constantly on my phone or onmy laptop. And I learned that actually
between leaving my last joband this job, I had quite a powerful
experience. I was put ongardening leave, which I didn't Had
never happened to me before,and I didn't think was going to happen.
(04:52):
And everyone was telling mehow lucky I am, but I actually felt
quite freaked out by it. And Ifelt like I had really lost this
huge part of who I was becauseI wasn't working. It wasn't hugely
long, it was a couple ofmonths. And I really struggled for
the first couple of weeks andwas just filling my days with chaos,
really. And then I went towatch my two little boys. I picked
(05:15):
them up from school on aWednesday and I went to go and watch
them in their karate class,which is about half an hour long.
And I realized that I justhadn't been watching them properly.
I'd try and go every week, butI'd be I'd duck out for a quick call
or I'd be on my laptop, or I'dbe on my phone and I'd wave when
they were doing their bit. ButI wasn't watching their interactions
(05:35):
with other children. I wasn'twatching how they took direction
from the teacher. And I justhad this absolute epiphany moment
of I can never go back towhere I was before. Nothing is ever
going to be so important thatI need to take half an hour during
their karate class to write aproposal. But I just don't think
I would have ever had thatrealization if it hadn't always been
forced on me. So that wasquite a powerful experience in terms
(05:58):
of having it all doesn'texist. But we can prioritize, particularly
within our family life andalso within our work life as well.
Hmm that' very powerful. AndI think it's interesting because
you then started a new job andnot just any new job, you went straight
into the CEO role after that.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think there's somethinginteresting about setting yourself
(06:20):
up with the right boundaries.And I'm sure SEO job doesn't have
that many boundaries.
Yeah.
However, having had thatpowerful realization, how did you
set yourself up differentlybefore even entering that chair?
I do think I have in this rolethat I have now, I do think I have
much better boundaries than Iever have before. Mainly because
(06:43):
if you are in a leadershipposition, there often isn't anyone
else to blame apart fromyourself. So if you want to create
a workplace and a culturewhere people can thrive at home and
at work, that responsibilityis now on me. And I take that for
parents. I take that forpeople who have caring responsibilities
in my workforce and foreveryone that wants to have balanced
(07:04):
work life and an integratedwork life so that I can retain the
absolute, attract and retainthe absolute best people within the
agency. But I think theboundaries that I've certainly put
in place, I think has almostfor me certainly come with a confidence,
I think. I became a managingdirector at a global agency when
I was 29. I had my first babywhen I was 30, and I think I definitely
(07:25):
didn't ever want people to seeme differently. So I never felt confident
enough to actually say topeople, on this day, I do pick up.
On this day, I do drop off. Onthis day, I do bath time. And I really
try not work in these twohours. I was in the school playground
on a conference call, tryingto put myself on and off mute or
even with my kids in the bathand I'd be sat there on the side
(07:47):
of my laptop with a blurredscreen, you know, all of this stuff.
And actually I just neverwanted to go back to that because
if I'm doing that, everyoneelse will think they need to do that.
And you can't have shamearound our children, I can't have
shame around our family life.So these are very basic practical
things. But I have only reallyfelt confident enough to do them
within the last 18 months,couple of years is to even just block
(08:11):
out the time verytransparently in my diary, anyone
can see it in my diary. I'mdoing pickup, I'm doing drop off
at this time, can't book callsin this time, I can't do a pitch
at this time. And I often willsay to people, you know, I'm picking
the boys up, I'm taking themto their football, their karate,
whatever it is they're doing,but I'll be back online at half seven
(08:31):
eight. But then I also knowthat I have allowed myself that time.
I'm not going to be resentfulabout having to pick up some of the
stuff that's a bit later,which actually could be quite helpful.
I can often review stuff andhave it ready for people first thing
in the morning. So I actuallythink if there's a group of us working
in that integrated way thatactually not saying we provide a
(08:52):
24 hour service, but it canalmost feel like it sometimes. But
I think I remember even just acouple of weeks ago, someone really
senior, one of my clientsasked for a call with me and for
the first time ever, I said, Iactually can't do it at that time,
I'm picking the boys up. Can Ipossibly do it two hours later? And
of course they said yes. Butfor me to have got to that stage,
I've been a parent for a whilenow and I'm only just feeling able
(09:14):
to do that. But I think I nowsee and feel the responsibility that
if I don't do it, othersaren't going to do it as well and
we will not have the agencyand the culture that I'm desperate
for us to have. So I do needto lead from the, the forefront in
that respect.
You're absolutely right. But Ithink what you're really honest about
is that the shift had tohappen in your own brain.
(09:35):
Yeah, yeah. No one else isgoing to do that for you.
Exactly. And I think it's soeasy to feel as a victim. And I'm
not blaming anyone who isfeeling as a victim because it's
really tough. The world is notdesigned for working parents. And
you have to do this extrawork, not just do your job well,
look after children. Okay. Butalso you need to do the extra work
of crafting your own work lifeand negotiating and so on. So it
(09:56):
is hard. But I think you'reright in that it has to shift in
your own brain and you justhave to make the choice directly.
Yeah. Interesting. And did youalways think that you still become
a CEO with children or didyou, in your mind, have a bit of
a trade off before you startedtrying for babies?
I must admit, I don't thinkI've ever seen it as mutually exclusive.
(10:19):
I've always felt veryambitious and had a very clear sight
of the role that I wantedwithin an agency and that I would.
I felt that I would be good atit. But I've also always known that
I wanted to be a parent and amum. And I think some of the most
powerful things I feel that Ican do for myself and that I can
(10:42):
do for other women is to justactually, just speak really positively.
I mean, it's not a walk in thepark and sometimes it's exhausting
and absolute chaos and I failall over the place. But actually,
they are the two best thingsin my life. The role I have and my
children. And they both bringme a huge amount of joy. I've had
a conversation in the kitchenthis morning, actually with a lovely
(11:05):
lady who's about to leave togo and have a baby. And I just said,
oh, you're just going to havethe best time. And they have, My
children have enriched my lifeand grown me as a person in a way
that I couldn't comprehend.And I feel like my work life now
makes a lot more sense insteadof just beasting myself so I could
go on the occasional niceholiday and have a pair of shoes.
(11:26):
I feel this realresponsibility and purpose. And actually
the thing I feel reallypassionate about is how much better
I am at my job because I'm amom and because I'm a parent. And
I think that it's made way fora lot of compassion and kindness
in my leadership, but also alot of clarity. And if something
(11:48):
isn't working, if we need toshift something, I certainly don't
feel scared of things in a waythat I was before. Because quite
frankly, when you've beenthrough labour and you're raising
a child and you do everythingelse. The stuff bounces off me in
a way that it probably didn'tbefore. And I'm also extremely time
efficient now. I think beforeI had children, I think my working
(12:09):
day, I think I used to mincearound the office having lots of
different conversations. And Ithink I started my work at 6pm and
I don't really mean thatdisrespectfully for anyone who doesn't
have children, but I thinkwhen I'm on a deadline of having
to go and get the kids or Ihave to organise my diary in this
way that is so rigid, I makedecisions really, really quickly.
And I've also had to learn Ican no longer be a perfectionist.
(12:33):
If something's 80% goodenough, let's send it. You know,
let's do the best possible jobthat we can, but also not less perfect.
Be the enemy of good. Andthat's the only way we can do this
when we have children andwe're working as well.
I think a lot of listenerswill find this really helpful to
hear the fact that even you asa CEO in a very, very target driven.
(12:53):
You're in if you don't do ajob well, people are going to be
made redundant because you'renot going to have the money in the
organization. Yeah, but I'mjust interested in how like I understand
rationally that what you'resaying about letting go and being
okay with 80% but how you areable to do that or maybe when you're
not able to do that. I justwould love to learn a bit more because
(13:15):
that is tough and it's toughto look at it in that way when you
are the person the box stops with.
Yeah, for sure. And I feelyou're totally right of how you summarized
it. If the business doesn'tperform, then I can't promote people,
I can't hire people. We haveto let people go. I mean, that's
an enormous responsibility andone that I take very seriously. And
(13:35):
I'm sure that anyone thatworks with me would probably say
that it doesn't feel like Ioften say 80% is good enough. And
I do know I have highstandards. But I also think that
particularly within theindustry that I work in, which is
very, very fast paced, we billtime. So that's what I sell to clients,
is people's time. I don'tactually have a problem making people
(13:58):
work. I have a problem makingpeople work less. And so it is being
able to provide that clarityof okay, yeah, we could spend another
five hours on this proposaland that would be really nice to
have. Is it absolutelyessential? Sometimes, yes. If it's
wrong or not good enough, yes.But if it's a nice to have and it's
(14:18):
going to keep me away fromsomething in my personal life or
family life that's reallyimportant, then that isn't a compromise
that I would make personallyor expect anyone within the workforce
to make. But I would say thatI've been on an absolute journey
with that and I have made somereal mistakes with that. And in terms
of. Since becoming a parent,one of the things that just sticks
(14:40):
out in my head is I missed myeldest son's first ever sports day
because we had a veryimportant new business pitch. You
know, we'd obviously tried tochange the date, but they just wouldn't
budge. I think we'd even saidI couldn't make it because I had
this engagement at the schoolanyway. But I went to this new business
(15:00):
pitch. We didn't win. And Iremember finding out that. I remember
feeling absolutely awfulbecause he obviously asked me where
I was and then a week later tofind out that I had made that decision
and we still hadn't won. Itjust. It's a very powerful reminder
that. And this isn't meant ina, you know, aggressive way. No one
(15:22):
else cares. My children are myresponsibility. If I'm not going
to attend a sports day, aclient's never going to give me the
gig just because I made thatsacrifice. That's on me. That's my
decision. And that was thewrong decision. But I'm really glad
that that happened to mebecause it was like a thunderbolt
of this can never happenagain. And I sort of. You tell yourself
stuff sometimes when you'vegot very young children, even awful
things that they won'tremember, or I'll be more present
(15:45):
when they're older. Andactually. But the habits and they
have to be ingrained at thisearly stage. It's not like all of
a sudden they're going to turn8 and 10 and I can put all these
boundaries in place. You know,something catastrophic would have
probably have happened beforethen. So I'm glad it happened, but
it was a difficult moment, butI learned a lot from it. And I hope
that that. That's certainlysomething that doesn't happen to
(16:07):
me again and I will definitelyavoid doing it. But those moments
happen all the time.
Absolutely. And I think theother thing that comes through in
the story is that it's apersonal thing. So the sports day
clearly it sounds like yourfamily is super sporty with lots
of.
I know I have made them soundvery active. Just boys with a lot
of energy.
Life is a lot easier when kidsare very tired in the evening, in
(16:27):
my experience. I think it'salso. It's such a personal thing
for someone else. It might bea piano or recital or whatever it
is, but it comes down to yourvalues and your gut feeling if you
really want to be there andyou have to do something against
those values that it will sitwith you. Like in way you describe.
Yeah, yeah, you mentionedabout presence there and again, coming
(16:49):
back to the buck stopping withyou type situation. How do you practically
make sure that you are not onyour phone, you are not looking like
you might still be thinking onyour way home about that big pitch
coming up tomorrow and we feeleveryone is prepared and everyone
knows what they're meant to door. Oh, you have got this additional
(17:09):
small idea that should beconsidered. How do you have moments
of being present with thechildren regardless?
Yeah, I certainly am, I'msure. Still on my phone all the time.
I remember when my son wasvery young, you know, those little
sort of like toy plasticlaptops. And I remember he was sat
there playing and he was onhis laptop and he was going, I'm
(17:31):
Mummy, I'm Mummy, I'm verybusy. And everyone was laughing.
In my mind I was like, gosh,that's how he sees me, rather than
someone who's playing with himor being fun or whatever. And it
was a. It was a sweet moment,but again, that was a bit of a. That's.
He's repeating what he'sseeing me do. And of course my kids
see me on my laptop and I'mproud that they see me working and
(17:52):
that they know what I do. ButI think I was given some really amazing
advice by my godmother,actually, when I went from having
one to two. Because I thinkthe other thing we need to be honest
about is you can have a lot ofsupport at home and a really good,
you know, network, etc. But alot of the mental load still stops
(18:14):
with. Stops with me. And Isort of carry these things in my
head all the time, like WorldBook Days and a present on Saturday
and spellings and have we evenwritten in the reading folder this
week? And you know, thingslike that, they just go on in my
mind absolutely constantly.There's nothing that I can do to
stop that. But there are alsothings that I felt that I was doing
(18:35):
well. She, my godmotherobserved that I was doing that were
hidden and possiblyunnecessary. And she was super senior
at l'Oreal. And because I'maway from my children for a couple
of days and the week and, youknow, I do two drop offs a week and
one pickup. I think I wasdoing things to try and compensate
(18:57):
and make myself feel better,like that, that I was a good mom.
And actually there were thingsthat they would just never ever know
I was doing. And such basicthings like who cares who sews their
names onto their labels or ifyou just get one of those stamps,
you don't need to do all thosesort of, you know, perfect things.
If I turn around to them whenthey're 18 and they say, you were
(19:18):
never there. And I say, ohyeah, but you know, look at those
lovely packed lunches I used.You know, make your name onto your
labels. Like, no, they want meon the sidelines at the football
pitch, they want me there atthe parents evening, not dialed in
on a phone on the table. So Iher her advice of being present.
And you know, the time that Ido have with them, even, you know,
(19:39):
at the weekends, I'm justabsolutely all in with them. And
that comes at a compromise tomyself. You know, I work full time
and at the weekends I'm verylittle by choice, have very little
time for myself or to doanything other than with the children.
But I also am really quitedeliberate in that decision making
because I know my eldest issix. I know in four or five years
(20:02):
he'll probably be out a wholeday on a Saturday, like with a play
date with a friend or he'll goto a sleepover. So I've actually
got this like tiny littlewindow with them and I need to be
quite purposeful in how Imaximize that. So I don't need to
be there seven days a week,every minute of every day. But you
know, those two hours that Ihave with them three times during
(20:23):
the week that we read that weplay in the garden, that we do bedtime,
and then I'll pick up thethree or four hours worth of work
that I've got to do and atweekends that we're really present
together. So I think it'sabout just being very intentional
about my presence and notdoing things that make me feel like
I'm a good mummy, that areactually jus, They don't mean anything.
(20:45):
Absolutely. What you'redescribing sounds as a lot of hard
work. And I know a lot ofsenior people work in that way. I
have an agenda which is I wantmore People with caring responsibilities
in the roles, the type ofroles that you're in. And I was wondering
whether there's anything thatyou can share with our listeners
about why is it worth youhaving such an intense life? Why
(21:10):
not stay at home, relax, go toyoga during the day? I'm not saying
it's hard work, but I'm surewe all have fantasies. Maybe it's
just me, because I'm recordingthis as I'm quite pregnant of take
A week out to be, Although mypartner would say I would be a terrible
housewife. And he's absolutelyright. Yeah, yeah. So I'm more interested,
why is it worth it? Why areyou doing this?
(24:46):
Yeah. And I think lots ofpeople do, and lots of my brilliant
friends have made choices tostay at home and be present with
the children. And that iswork. That is labor. That is incredibly,
incredibly hard work. If youtold me to look after my children
for seven days a week, I thinkI'd be much more exhausted than I
would be running a companywith 200 people in it. I am flat
(25:10):
out exhausted at the end ofevery weekend. So, you know, I certainly
don't think that that is aneasy option and that I have the hard
option at all. I think it'sabout where you find your joy and
where you find your purpose. Iremember starting my career, I was
absolutely consumed withhaving. I think I wanted five children.
At one stage, I'd still quitelike five children. And I was just
(25:31):
so focused on, like, theearliest opportunity that I could
have a baby and, say, afamily. And I started work, and it
was this absolute revelationto me that I'd managed to fall into
this career where I justreally, I felt really quite good
at it. And, you know, I'dalways been okay academically and
I'd done very well. I found mystudies very solitary. And all of
(25:52):
a sudden I was in this dynamicworkforce working with a team. It
just woke me up in a way thatI felt I hadn't been woken up before
and I wanted more of it. Andit was this real shift actually in
my life and actually led to,you know, when I was in my twenties,
quite a considerablerelationship breakdown because I
(26:13):
changed as a person. I wentfrom being this person that I really
did just want to have a familyand stay at home. And that was my
whole dream and that, youknow, we were embarking on that journey
together, and then all of asudden my career just absolutely
took off and I just found thislicense to operate that I hadn't
before. So, you know, I'M notashamed to admit that my career and
my work brings me an awful lotof joy. It brings me a lot of energy
(26:36):
and I'm really proud that, youknow, about 75% of the time I feel
good at it and also I'm justexperiencing this now, but the purpose
that comes with that has beenvery empowering for me. Just this
weekend that gone by, one ofmy clients is the owner of a big
UK football club and they hada big match on at Wembley. My eldest
(26:58):
is football mad and, you know,we were able to be in the executive
box and, you know, he met theplayers and the managers and it was
kind of the first moment whereI took a step back and I just thought,
you would just never have thisif I hadn't been able to bring this
opportunity. And I'd hadsomething quite similar with him
a couple of months back andwhich I've had some great feedback
(27:21):
on. This actually, this was areal learning moment for me as well,
is that I've never had anyproblems with either of my two wanting
to go to school or nursery.But my eldest was having a little
bit of a tough time recentlyand it wasn't school, it was one
of those sort of, you know,holiday camps I booked him into and
he just stood in front of thegates and he just said, I am not
(27:42):
going. And it was, you know,one of those moments where I could
sort of thrash this out withyou, but I'm not going to get anywhere.
And actually you've never donethis to me before. I'm always telling
you that I will listen to youif you have a problem. This is a
moment for me to listen. I hada huge day and I wasn't even in London.
So I said, well, you're goingto have to come to work with Mummy
if you, if you're not going.He said, I will come to work with
(28:03):
you. So anyway, we just off wepopped and I walked into the office
with him. I had back to backclient meetings. I had an all agency
meeting with my 200 staff and,you know, actually Eyal walked into
the office with him and said,I've got childcare issues, which
I think every single parent inthe office was like, oh, you know,
thank goodness, happens toeveryone. He sat in the front row
(28:24):
at that meeting where I had,you know, my all agency and we presented
and he got to see me inaction, as it were, and to, you know,
listen to, you know, the workand he loved it and everyone, you
know, obviously made a lovelyfuss of him. In fact, he went home
and said that, you know,mummy's work's like a party, which
is probably not that helpful,but I'm glad that's how he experienced
(28:45):
it. But, you know, that wasjust a moment of being really quite
real, but for the first time.And obviously they're still quite
little, but for them to have alittle bit of insight as to, you
know, what I do and who I amand, you know, hopefully, you know,
as a family, you know, we canbenefit from it.
I love that story and I'mhoping for your sake he didn't have
(29:06):
too good a time so that hegoes again at some point.
I know. Exactly, exactly.
Well done. I love the couragegoing through that. I'm interested
in just your wider experiencewithin the playground and so on.
So there are obviously lotsand lots of different patterns of
setting up family and career.Sometimes the people on our Fellowship
(29:27):
program tell us that theyexperience a bit of stigma from people
who make different choices,perhaps that are to put the career
on a back burner, which is, asyou say, an okay choice to make,
if that's what's right foryou. I'm just interested if you've
ever faced that and if. Yes,how you dealt with it.
Yeah, massively and probablydealt with it very badly is the honest
(29:50):
answer to that. And I think Idid. I did a panel a couple of months
ago on imposter syndrome. WhenI was preparing for the panel, my
absolute honest thought wasthat I don't feel like I have a huge
amount of imposter syndrome inmy work life. I really struggle in
that. The other area of mylife in terms of I probably feel
(30:12):
more imposter syndrome in theplayground than I do at work. I have
done absolutely wild things. Ipretend to be on work phone calls
if I don't have anyone tostand with, because I've actually
got, you know, a couple ofreally lovely friends at the school
now. But that's taken me alittle while and I'm doing more drop
offs and pickups now than Iever have. But, you know, to build
(30:33):
those relationships, you doneed to, to be there and, you know,
at the parties and things.I've done absolutely crazy things
like pretend that I'm on thephone because I'm scared that no
one will speak to me. I mean,I would just never do that work.
I would never lack any ofthat, of that confidence at work.
I have lied and said I'm notfull time, I'm part of time. Just,
you know, for. Because I don'twant people to think, oh, My goodness.
(30:56):
You know, she works because Ilive outside of London, so I've got
a very long commute, whichmeans I have to stay in London. So,
you know, not only am I fulltime, but I'm often away from my
children. I travel a lot as awoman and as a mum, you know, you
are very aware of that. Imean, I've had fascinating conversations
with, you know, some dads.It's often a different world for
(31:17):
them and they have justaccepted that, you know, they aren't
in the playground, they don'thave those relationships and this
is their role. My honest. Andsome people may disagree with me
here, but I do feel that that,that feels different for a woman
and for a mummy, especiallywith two young children. So, you
know, I'm still working thatthrough and I'm still gaining in
confidence with it. But I, youknow, I do feel more and more comfortable
(31:41):
all the time and I have madesome good friends and I've, you know,
I've volunteered for a fewthings at the school that are manageable.
And, you know, I'm certainlynot going to be on the PTA anytime
soon, but if you need a helperat a Christmas disco for two hours,
I can always do that. So, youknow, I don't know how I'm seeing
through other people's eyes.I'm sure that there are judgments
(32:04):
because we all judge oneanother and I'm even quite conscious
sometimes about, you know,what I'm wearing when I walk into
the school assembly becauseI'm about to go to a client meeting
and throwing a pair oftrainers on instead of, you know,
just trying to fit in a bitmore. So there was imposter syndrome
and trying to fit in in everyarea of our life. But I hope is that
I, you know, as I grow as inmy journey as a parent and also in
(32:26):
my career, that, you know, Ijust feel more and more comfortable
in each evolution of my life.But that is very much still a work
in progress.
There's a lot of wisdom there.We're coming towards the end of our
conversation and I wanted toask you if you could share two or
three things that if someone'slistening to this, feels inspired
and would like to at somepoint in their career, become a CEO
(32:51):
while still having relativelyyoung children, what would be two
or three things they could dothis week to start putting them on
the right path.
Particularly as a woman, Ithink we SoI'mmoreinterested,whyisitworthit?WhyareyoudoingthisIthinkwehave
arealresponsibilitythatifwedowanttoseetheshapeofleadershiptableschange,you know,thatwedoactually
need to policyintoaction.SosinceI'vebeeninthisrole,we'veoverhauledourmaternitybenefits,we'veoverhauledourpaternitybenefits.Thatissoimportant.Youknow,paternityneedsto bebetterfor
(33:20):
mensothatthey cantaketime outofthebusiness,and menneed tofeelableto
take time out the business. Wefeel so nervous about taking maternity
leaves because we think itwill set us back in terms of our
career and our progress. Andmen feel exactly the same. So I've
worked somewhere where theyhad an extremely generous paternity
policy and none of the mentook it in full or they chunked it
up, which is actually quitedisruptive. Instead of just taking
(33:42):
the same amount of time out ofwork as a woman. So, you know, enhancing
that, you know, miscarriagepolicies, fertility benefits, menopause
policies, More women are nowdropping out of the workforce at
that stage of life than theyare bringing children into the world.
We have an aging workforcewith caring responsibilities. You
(34:03):
know, my father has beencaring for his parents, and he probably
has to have more time off workwith caring responsibilities than
I do with two young childrennow. You know, we've got to move
at the times. We are now in,you know, a place of work where we
can potentially have fourgenerations working within our workforce.
And we need to protect people.Otherwise, you know, we are just
(34:23):
going to have these hiddenpeople that are just going to fall
away who are such talentwithin our agency. So, you know,
to be inspired by that, thatwe can be part of a movement and
part of a change. Andactually, I believe we have a responsibility
if we want to see the worldchange, for us to step up and take
those leadership positionswhen we do have them, to be the change
that we want to see. So I feelvery positive about that, to speak
(34:45):
very positively about havingchildren. You know, my sister's just
had a baby, and the amount oftimes I would just overheard conversations
with her about, you know,going back to work and sleepless
nights, and yet that allhappens. But it's also a total joy
and, you know, makes the worldand your work make a lot of sense.
And also particularly, youknow, returning back after having
(35:07):
children. I'd love to banphrases like 'baby brain' and 'fog'.
And, you know, actually, mostwomen and men I see returning to
the workforce are betterversions of themselves. You know,
post a bit of time out of thebusiness, more time, efficient, more
clarity, braver. And, youknow, for us to not think that this
means the end, this can meanthe beginning of something and a
(35:30):
brand new journey and to feelsort of empowered and excited about
that. And I hope that doesn'tsound toxically positive of me. I
do know that it's reallytough. My four year old woke up three
times last night. You know,it's exhausting still. But there
is just so much that's good aswell and I do think that that does
need to be embraced.
Very well said. Thank you somuch. Heather, if people want to
(35:50):
find out more about yourorganisation or about you, where
should they head?
To the Grayling UK website.
Perfect.
Thank you very much. Thank youso much for having me.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you. Thank you so
much and I always love to hearfrom our listeners. If you want to
connect with me.On LinkedIn,just go to FerenaHefti and I'll be
delighted to hear yourfeedback and your suggestions or
just have you say hi.Likewise,if you do feel passionately
about gender equality and youwant to support a female led podcast,
then please do leave a reviewand share it with a friend.Just because.Because
at the moment podcasting isstill A very, very male dominated
environment.Most of the topcharging podcasts are led by men.
Ireallylove all the peoplewho've joined from the podcast our
fellowship program and if youwant to do the same, then please
head over to leadersclass.orgFellowship in order to get access
to a community of support tohelp you combine ambitious career
with young children togetherwith people who have your back. See
you next week.
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com