Are you ready to redefine career success while raising a family?
In the first episode of the C-Suite series, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Elizabeth Willetts, Founder of Investing in Women and author of the upcoming book Flex: Smart Strategies to Build A Successful Career Around Your Life. With over 17 years of recruitment experience, Elizabeth is passionate about empowering professionals to find fulfilling, flexible, and part-time work that fits their lives, and helps close the gender pay gap.
Elizabeth shares her insights on how flexible work can unlock opportunities for ambitious parents, why intentional time management is a game-changer, and how to stand out in the job market with a CV that shines, even in the era of AI.
This practical and inspiring conversation is perfect for anyone navigating the challenges of combining a high-powered career with parenthood.
We hope you enjoy the episode!
Show Notes:
- Elizabeth’s book, Flex, is out in January 2025.
- Connect with Elizabeth Willetts via her LinkedIn Profile, LinkedIn Page, and Instagram, and explore her work at Investing in Women.
- Learn how flexible work options are reshaping the future for professionals and their families.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How flexible and part-time roles can support your career and personal goals.
- Practical tips for writing a standout CV that highlights your impact.
- The power of intentional time management to achieve your dreams.
- Why negotiation is essential when securing flexible work arrangements.
More BCSC episodes you might love:
- {CEO Series} Polly Neate - How to Find Purpose in Your Work
- {CEO Series} Laura Citron – Why the CEO Role is Perfect for Working Parents
Discover more about the multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowship, designed to support ambitious working parents on the path to senior leadership. Learn more at Leaders Plus.
Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children. For much too
long, amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often malemiddle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast, I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, shared parental
leave, securing a promotion,dealing with workload challenges,
or managing as a dual careercouple. We also have an award winning
fellowship community which isglobal for working parents who have
big dreams for their careersbut don't want to sacrifice their
family. You'll join anabsolutely wonderful group of people,
(01:28):
a very tight knit, supportivegroup of parents who have your back.
Together, you'll explore whatyour career aspirations are and you'll
get advice from senior leaderswho are also working parents about
how to achieve thoseaspirations. You'll get new ideas
to combine your hopes for yourcareers with your hope for your family,
and yo are supported bypeople who are experiencing what
(01:48):
you're experiencing yourself.I'm really delighted that a larger
majority of our fellows havemade tangible changes following the
program, be that becoming moresenior in their roles, working shorter
hours, having better flexibleworking arrangement. They always
impress me so much with thecourage that they iinstilnstillineachotherto
dowhatisright for them withoutapologizing for having family or
(02:13):
apologizing for wanting thatTop job. Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
This week I have been chattingto Elizabeth Willett who shared with
me about how to bypass AI whenyou're going for job applications,
how to negotiate in detailwhen you made a job offer and especially
(02:38):
when you applied for a fulltime role but actually want that
role part time. We had areally good chat and I hope you enjoyed
the conversation. There's alot of practical stuff supporting
the job application processfor flexible roles. Enjoy the conversation.
So I run a company calledInvesting in Women, which is a recruitment
company that helps people findflexible part time and home based
(03:00):
jobs and those brilliantforward thinking employers across
the UK that want to hire them.We also offer career coaching services
to candidates that wantadditional help with CVS, LinkedIn,
interview coaching and I'vegot a book that I know we're going
to be talking about coming outin January called Flex. And who is
(03:21):
in my family, I've got ahusband called Henry and two little
girls, Emily and Annabelle,and a Labrador doodle called Dougal
because I can't forget him.
And we've chatted about thisbefore, but I was wondering if there
are any new things, especiallynow having written a book that you've
changed your mind on that youused to believe about combining a
big career with young childrenthat you don't subscribe to anymore.
(03:44):
I think I used to actuallythink it was quite hard to do it.
And now writing this book,I've actually realized anything is
possible. And actually you canfind pockets of time to do things.
So with the book, everyone waslike, how did you do it? How did
you find the time? And thetrick for me with the book was to
just break it down into reallysmall, manageable chunks of time.
(04:06):
So I wrote every day for 30minutes. I'd often do it after the
kids went to bed. Yes, I wastired, I didn't want to do it, but
I just wrote and set a timeron the Alexa, listen to the radio
and you know, in the end Iwrote a book in 30 minute chunks.
It took me less than sixmonths to do it. So actually I think
(04:28):
it's just about being reallyintentional with your time. You know,
don't waste time scrollingthrough Instagram or, you know, the
Daily Mail or whatever you do.It's actually thinking, I've got
this pocket of time, I'm gonnafill it. You know, you can all set
a deadline like I did that 30minutes, which really then focuses
you. You do so much withinshort periods of time. So I think,
you know, anything is possibleif you're just quite intentional
(04:50):
about your time.
Interesting. And did you sitdown one day and just decided, I
am going to write a book andthis is the title. Or did you just
start writing and see whatcame of it?
No, I never had anyaspirations to write a book. It was
definitely not on my bucketlist at all. But I was by chance
on someone else's podcast andit came out about this time last
(05:13):
year, we're recording now,aren't we? In November. And by chance
an editor at Wiley which is apublisher. They publish the books.
The Dummy's Guide to listenedto that episode and reached out to
me and asked if I'd considerwriting a book. At first of all,
it went even into my junkfolder and then I fished it out and
I sat on it for a few daysthinking this isn't like, this must
(05:34):
be like a joke. And eventuallygot back to them and no, it was true.
And they were like, be reallyinterested in you writing a book.
And it's like a career sort ofplaybook strategy. Playbook about
really, you know, what to do,how to get a job no matter what life
throws at you. So I had towrite a pitch. Never done that before.
Write the pitch. And they sentme some examples and then it got
approved. So that was it. Andthen I was even at that point I was
(05:57):
like, do I have the time thatyou know, running a business, do
I actually have the time? Andthen I listened to another podcast
which was how to write a bookfast when you have no time. That
said, about breaking it downinto 30 minutes a day. And I spoke
to my business coach at thetime and she said, you can't turn
down this opportunity. And I'mso pleased I did it. I mean, obviously
it's not been released yet. Wedon't know how it's going to receive.
(06:17):
But I'm just, just to see myname on something tangible is lovely
because working in a digitalbusiness where I'm speaking to people
on Zoom, it's so nice toactually have something now to hold.
So.
Oh, do you have an actualphysical copy yet?
I haven't got it yet, but I'veseen all the covers and I can't wait
to get it. Yeah, once I getit, I'll be holding it up. I'll probably
(06:37):
not stop touching it.
Exciting. Exciting. And whatdo you think flexibility is?
Flexible working? I think itmeans, I mean there's obviously lots
of different flexible workingpatterns. I think it means anything
that's not the standard 9 to5, Monday to Friday in an office
or in a workplace. So it couldbe hybrid working that works for
(07:00):
lots of people. It could befull time, but fully remote. Obviously
part time, job sharing. Thoseare just sort of some of the things.
Compressed hours, nine dayfortnights. I think anything that's
just slightly deviates fromthat. Strict, rigid. You have to
be in by such and such a timeon a Monday morning. You can't leave
until after such and such atime in the evening, even if you're
(07:23):
just sat there wasting timebecause you're just clock watching,
waiting for the clock to reach 5:30.
Absolutely. So I guessflexibility is relatively acceptable
for some role, especially backoffice roles. But the roles with
real power and what I mean issenior roles that don't just have
director in the job title butalso have real power to make decisions
(07:47):
about people, about howresource money is spent, there it's
actually, it's harder, it's alot harder to get flexibility. What
have you learned about gettingto roles with power with a flexible
working arrangement? Becauseclearly it can be done. I mean you
and I, we both obviously wehave an agenda here, let's be honest.
But yeah, how do you get those roles?
(08:08):
I think it obviously dependson the organization and the culture.
I mean my husband, I meanspeaking about him, he's like really
senior and runs an oil tradingcompany and it's just embedding that
from the top. I thinkobviously having me as a wife probably
like banged on at him. Butthey have, you know, considering
it's like financial servicestrading, they're all hybrid working,
(08:30):
they're really flexible interms of people can come in, you
know, whatever times it worksfor them. It's about trust, isn't
it really? It's actually abouttrust. It's about judging people
on outputs rather thanpresenteeism. So if you're in a sales
role and actually if you'remaking sales, I would personally
(08:50):
be really relaxed about youmaking those sales in a way that
worked for you and whetherthat was in an office or not, you
know, if you were thenspeaking to somebody in an evening,
a client close sale, then Iwould not necessarily expect you
to be in then really early thenext morning just for presenteeism
sake. I think it's about thattrust, isn't it? Probably also about
(09:12):
maybe being a bit more carefulwith hires, that process as well.
Because you want to make surethat if you're an employer, you're
hiring those people then thatyou can trust. But I think it's just
all about creating that adultenvironment. I understand that FaceTime
is important for a lot ofroles, but it doesn't have to be,
I think 40 hours worth ofFaceTime necessarily Monday to Friday
(09:36):
and it's just about actuallyhiring the right people then that
you know are going to work well.
I agree. I think there issomething about that productivity
bit because that is the cruxand that's quite easy. It's quite
easy to show that you're asproductive in a sales role as someone
who is, you know, you'rebringing 80% of the clients, but
(09:57):
obviously there are roles thatare. Their job is to create thought
leadership for theorganization or their job is to create
a new impact reportingstrategy for the charity. And that's
where it's really hard tomeasure that productivity. Have you
learned anything while writingyour book about how to show that
(10:18):
your delivering a great dealwhen it's in that fluffy environment?
I do know what you meanbecause I've got people as well that
work for me. They're notnecessarily making sales and it's
actually, it's things thatmake will feed into sales at some
point. But I do get that, youknow, back office roles are a little
bit harder to measure. I thinkwhen you're writing, you know, a
(10:38):
CV or trying to demonstratethat the recruiters are interested
whatever role you've had onthat impact that you've made. And
that impact could be onobviously sales, whether you have
directly got those sales oryou have created collateral that
fed into that sales. So it'dbe something like I've created a
(10:58):
thought leadership report thateventually was used to bring on these
X number of clients or retainthese number of clients or it was
used to upsell for thesenumber of clients or if you have
saved money, so maybe you'veworked in procurement or you create
a new process that reduced thetime it took to complete a task and
therefore that would havesaved money. So it's something like
(11:20):
that. Anything you candemonstrate. And numbers are always
so universal.
I think that is true. Numbersare helpful and I appreciate, you
know, you're coming fromrecruitment so you will have a really
good numbers brain. But I knowthere are people who are listening
who are working for the civilservice or in a charity where actually
you do have accountability ontop of those numbers. And I think
(11:43):
the really important thingthere is just to make sure that you
are very clear with yourmanager and you both agree on what
is the value add of this role,what is the main purpose and how
do you then quantify that? Sois it writing one report a year that
is being picked up by onemajor newspaper, you can still I
think translate that intomeasures of success?
(12:04):
Absolutely. I think that isit, isn't it? It's like writing the
report and then what I alwayssay to my CV clients is so what?
Okay, but then you got thatreport, it got picked up by a major
publication which increasedbrand awareness or XYZ definitely
is really helpful to do that.I think that so what as you're writing
(12:25):
your CV but also then asyou're speaking to your hiring manager.
Because actually, as you'reachieving things, even if you're
not looking for a role,definitely keep documenting that
because it really helps thenbecause you'll forget people, you
know, their life's busy. Then,you know, if you come to look for
a role in a year, so it's timeyou can see all the amazing things
you did. And it also helpswith performance reviews as well.
(12:47):
You can come back to yourmanager and say, look, I did this,
that the other.
Absolutely. So I want to throwa challenge at you. You are a CV
expert and you talk in yourbook about how to get a good cv.
There is AI in the picture nowthat filters out CVs automatically.
You might have a career breakin your CV. And I know there are
different AI systems, somebetter than others, and hopefully
(13:09):
some of them are moreinclusive than others, but you could
be faced with a bad AI system.What is your advice to make sure
your CV is standing out andgets through that AI screening?
I think it's mostly important.The most thing is important is to
demonstrate your relevance andthat's whether it's being viewed
(13:30):
by AI or a person. Because Iget lot of CVs and a lot of them,
it feels like somebody hasjust sat and applied to every single
role that they've seen overthe weekend or whatever that maybe
they're not suited for at all.So it's actually if you were as well
wanting to make a slightcareer change, it's then pulling
(13:51):
out all that most relevantexperience and making sure that's
the top of your cv. So forexample, if you are wanting to apply,
we'll just use an example. Fora pure HR role and you've previously
done had more recruiter roles,you would be needing to actually
pull out the HR experiencethat you've had and highlighting
(14:12):
that, putting that as the topbullet points rather than the recruiter
experience, for example. Soit's actually thinking about what
is important to the end hiringmanager, why are they recruiting
for this role, what do theyactually need and what skills and
experience I have that willmatch that and can help them fulfill,
(14:34):
you know, the responsibilitiesin this role. And then it's just
me demonstrating that in yourcv. I know we've spoken a little
bit just now about impact.Anything you can show in your CV
that's quite unique to you andis very impact driven. I always think
try and use the STARtechnique, maybe include a key achievement.
So be specific about any taskyou have done in the past, what you
(14:57):
achieved and the results willalways help you stand out and against
the other candidates. But thatis something I think that helps.
I mean, obviously you cantailor your CV to each job description.
Make sure you're using anykeywords that are in that job advert
because if it is an AI system,it's probably been pre-programmed
(15:19):
to pulling out those keywords.So make sure you're using the actual
words and phrases that areused in the job ad because that will
help your CV pull through.
I think there's somethingreally practical about having a separate
skill section which TracyGeorge told me about, just as a really
helpful way to make sure thatyou can put the words down to filter
(15:41):
out. What are your thoughtsaround listing career breaks?
I personally don't thinkthey're needed because I just don't
think they add anything to acv. I think A i depends how you
feel about it because somepeople don't want to draw attention
to it. So if you don't want todraw attention to it, why put it
in there? Because if arecruiter has like 50 CVs that they've
(16:02):
come into for a role thatmorning, they're just going to be
scrolling quickly through thatcv, each CV and they might not even
see a career break, butthey're going to see it if you spell
it out. You know, even ifyou're fine with your career break,
I just don't think it addsanything to a CV at all. I think
as a recruiter we want to see,you know, what your skills and experience
(16:23):
are and if you can do the rolethat we're recruiting for, that is
the most important to me.Career breaks don't matter. I'd much
rather see your experience andwhat you've done. And so it's just
taking up space. That's myopinion. If I can see you've had
a career break, I would maybeask you that about that on the phone.
But yeah, I don't think youneed to waste the space, Addie, like
(16:45):
between jobs that you are on acareer break.
And I guess a lot of thepeople listening to this are working
parents and they will see afull time job and want to apply for
it to get a flex solution.Would you advise to put that in the
Cover letter or would you sayactually raise it much later?
I'd personally raise it a bitlater because sometimes they may
(17:07):
have had, you know, spoke tothe hiring manager, the hiring manager
said it's full time onlyespecially it's like a recruiter
that's recruiting it andtherefore if you put that in the
Cover letter, they mayinstantly Reject you, and I don't
want that to happen to you.And actually, a lot of roles are
much more flexible thanspecified on an advert. So I would
apply. And actually,personally, I spoke to a recruiter
(17:30):
about this Yesterday, a bigFTSE 100, and her advice was to actually
get a job offer and thennegotiate for flexible working, because
then you know that they wantyou and you can negotiate at that
point. Personally, I would sayI probably do it after the first
interview when you've gone in,you've demonstrated that you're a
really good candidate, thatyou are relevant for the role, you
can add a lot of value in theposition and at that point, once
(17:52):
you've done that, then they'llbe, you know, if they really like
you, they're going to want totry and accommodate you. Her advice
was to job offer, I thinkeither or, but I probably wouldn't
do it, you know, before you'veactually had a chance to demonstrate
that you're a brilliantcandidate for the role. But I would
say definitely apply becausemost roles are much more flexible
than is specified in an ad.
Definitely. And, you know, youalways think when you see a role,
(18:15):
oh, I can't fulfill theseroles. But you never see the headache
of the person recruiting whois desperate to get the right person
on, who really would give aleg and an arm to have that position
filled by someone where theydon't have to worry about it later.
Exactly, Yeah. And I think itworks other ways as well because
I like you, I've beenrecruiting for my team, so I recently
recruited a marketing managerand I thought I needed less hours
(18:39):
than I did. And then I met anAmazing candidate and she wanted
more hours and actually Ithought, you know what, I can make
it work, I'll offer her whatshe wants. Because I wanted to hire
her, I wanted her to stay. Soit sort of works both ways. So I
thought, you know, maybe ifshe'd come up, that would been the
first thing on her coverletter example, I might have thought,
(19:00):
oh, no, I can't do that. So Ithink it works both ways. But yeah,
definitely, you know, if, likeyou said, a recruiter or a hiring
manager could have beenrecruiting for this role for months,
and if you are perfect,they're going to want to try and
accommodate you.
Definitely. And I think italso depends where you're applying
to to decide when you're goingto raise it. So I quite often get
people asking, can we do thisjob as a job share or not and see
(19:24):
this plus. So I'm always opento that and hopefully people would
know that we're always open tothat and it won't be difficult. But
if you perhaps apply to a moretraditional organization, maybe it
is better to wait for longer.I mean, I don't think there's a recipe
of how to do it right. But youdefinitely. I think the most important
recipe is to apply, isn't it?
Absolutely, apply.
(19:45):
Don't think in your head youcan't do that role part time.
Yeah, apply. And I think somuch more organizations are open
to it than they ever wouldhave been.
(24:02):
Yeah, absolutely. Interesting.And just. Sorry, I'm getting onto
this topic of cvs, but I'vejust recruited, so I'm really. It's
on my head. Any really commonmistakes that you see people make.
Yeah, I actually thinkthere's. Yeah, I don't feel you need
a photo on your cv. That'ssomething I see a lot and I think
(24:22):
really just. Yeah. Why? Idon't think why. He's taking up space
and you know, I'm not biased,but somebody might view it and be
biased. You never quite knowyou can open yourself up to that.
And I think actually sometimesI think people are so fixated on
getting their CV down to twopages and I don't recommend having
like reels of pages, but Ithink you can always go down, go,
(24:46):
I don't know who made thisthing. Oh, it's only two pages. So
I think you can go depending,you know, if you've had a long career.
You know, I spoke to somebodyyesterday who's been working for
like 30 years and she'd got itall down to two pages still. And
I think you can probably go totwo and a half because then you're
missing the detail of actuallywhat you did and what you can bring
to the role. It was really,really high level. So I think if
(25:08):
you need to go over two pages,don't fret. I wouldn't do more than
two and a half. I would rathersee that you have included some of
that detail and that impactand that value than it just being
really, really high level thatI can't really see what you did.
And you also offer some advicein the book about negotiating once
(25:29):
you do have that offer. And Ithink that's really important because
there's evidence and it's notwomen's fault. But I know that quite
a lot of women listening, alsomen. But there for women, there's
evidence that they negotiateless because we've been conditioned
that we shouldn't be askingfor that. So if you're listening
to this just to say this isnot a criticism of you but it's more
of a, you know, systemicsocietal thing. So you've supported
(25:53):
people to negotiate. What aresome of the phrases that have worked
really well? If someone comesback and offers you a job at let's
say 50,000 to pick out anumber from a hat, how do you say.
Well actually no, I want morein a way.
I'd be specific about what youwanted. So I'd be like I want 55
for example because I believe,you know, this role on the open market
(26:15):
is paying 55,000. I can dothis, that the other, you know, my
skills and experience Ibelieve are worth whatever, you know,
whatever it is. Maybe youknow, what did you do for a previous
employer that you can thendemonstrate? I suppose if it's something
like sales, it's quite easybecause I, no, I can bring in X number
of money into yourorganization or if you've done something
(26:37):
more back office, I know I canrevamp all your systems which is
going to save you X number ofhours or money, et cetera. So trying
when you're doing your cv youactually is this impact thing is
then once you come to thenegotiation you've got all that as
sort of evidence of what youcan do. Yeah. And definitely come
(26:58):
back with an actual figurerather than a range because they'll
always go at the lower end ofthe range and it just makes you seem
much more confident. So yeah,it's just demonstrating about what
the open market's paying, whatyou believe the role is worth, what
your experience is worth andwhat you can bring to them at that
level. If they can't budge onthat because maybe that is their
budget, you could ask forthings like a sign-on bonus or you
(27:22):
could talk about, you know, aguaranteed bonus if you hit X targets
etc because obviously there'snot an annual cost to that. So they
may be more willing to offerthat, that but that might be something
on in your back pocket thatyou might be willing to take instead.
Interesting. How common arethings like sign-on bonuses? It sounds
to me like something out ofthe tech entrepreneur type world,
(27:45):
but I might be wrong.
Yeah, no, I mean we used tooffer them a lot at Deloitte. They're
quite common depending upon- Imean it will be really common in
financial services dependingupon the industry you're in. If you
are walking away from a bonusat a current employer then you need
to let the new employer knowthat you are walking away from a
(28:06):
bonu and how much that bonusis worth and therefore really they
need to be paying that bonusfor you to move. Try and as much
leverage as you can. Also, ifyou've got other offers on the table,
I would be telling therecruiter that, you'd be, I'll be
telling the recruiter how muchthose other offers are paying. Nothing
like creating a bit of senseof competition over you.
(28:28):
It feels very cutthroat. Iguess that's. I do know recruitment
is quite an intensive.
Yeah. But it obviously helpsyou. If you know you're due a bonus
in April and it's pro rata andyou would be getting such and such
in April, then you should beasking your next employer to compensate
you for that loss of bonus.
Absolutely. No, I completelyagree And I think if ever you're
(28:50):
unsure, just look up theaverage gender pay gap and for organizations
with more than 250 employeesyou should find that easily. And
if you're a bit worried aboutasking, I think then you just take
your salary. Look at what theother, you know.
Yeah, they may say no but Ithink people get so frightened because
they're worried they're goingto lose their job offer. I have never
ever, ever seen that. I'll bevery. That's, I think why people
(29:13):
are so frightened because theyworried they're going to just lose
it. I've never seen thathappen. They may say no, but you're
then in no worse position thanyou are now just by asking. And often
you've not even, It's oftenthrough sort of a third party, whether
it's the recruitmentconsultant or an in house recruiter
that is doing that negotiationanyway. So it won't necessarily sour
the relationship with yourultimate boss.
(29:34):
And what's your adviceregarding applying for new flexible
job during maternity leave?
Yeah, absolutely, go for it.If you don't want like your current
job, if you don't want to goback to your current job and there's
nothing to stop you fromapplying elsewhere. So I would, yeah,
it's a good opportunity. Oftenpeople reassess, don't they, what
they're looking for. Theirpriorities may shift. They may, you
(29:56):
know, they may realize thatthe role that they were in wasn't
for them for whatever reason.They may be worried that they're
going to go back and beside-lined because of the culture.
So it's a really goodopportunity. You know, while you
maybe have, I say have time,you probably don't have time being
on maternity. I know what it'slike but you know if you've got a
bit of time then you can applyfor roles.
(30:17):
Definitely. I think it's alsookay to negotiate for a, you know,
to say towards the end of theoffer that you're coming back from
maternity leave and forexample, if you need a phased start
or something like that tonegotiate for that.
Yeah.
And it can be a really goodthing because you might have been
a workaholic who worked alllong hours and then all your colleague
will still remember you asthat. But if you apply for a new
(30:39):
job it can be a way to resetthe expectations with people who
never worked with you before, so.
Abolutely,AbsolutelyAndactuallyalso oftenpeoplethinkit'seasiertogo
back to their currentemployer. My experience, and this
is obviously personal, itwasn't that easy because everyone
had changed anyway. So I wasworking in a new team or in a new
office so it felt like a newjob anyway. So I wouldn't necessarily
(31:00):
let that hold you back fromapplying because you think it's going
to be more comfortable goingback to where you currently are.
If you didn't like it,definitely look elsewhere.
Excellent advice. I'minterested in your vision for flexible
work and what you think isnext because we're still talking
about flexible work. I see itis a thing. I'm really hoping that
(31:21):
in 10 years time it's not athing anymore. What are your emerging
ideas for the type of modelsthat we need in our society to make
it possible for parents tohave senior roles and see their children?
It's so difficult, isn't it?Because you know what I think it's,
I think generally the pandemicpost pandemic has been fairly positive
(31:42):
for a lot of working parents,particularly women because I've worked
on roles, big senior rolesthat have been hybrid that people
have been able to considerthat they may not have been able
to consider before.Particularly when they're hybrid
I find when they're two daysin an office rather than three and
then you know, it's thatbalance and people can really make
(32:03):
that work, and particularly ifit's a really nice employment employer
where they're quite flexibleabout doing school runs etc. So I
would love to see more of thatbecause that definitely enables people,
you know, really if tomaintain a career and maintain that
salary. They don't have totake a cut for a pay for a part time
role, they're not taking anycut on pensions etc and I would love
(32:24):
that to be the new full timenormal. Obviously we do. There has
been a lot of rumbles, haven'tthat in the News about return to
the office like Boots did thebig thing last year, everyone was
returning five days a week andother organizations are checking
slight swipe passes to seeactually how often people are in
the office which is aboutpresenteeism. But we've had quite
(32:45):
a difficult year inrecruitment. It's not been yeah generally
as an industry it's as a lotof people listening to this will
probably know that it's notbeen candidate friendly market this
year there's been a lot ofredundancies particularly in the
tech industry. So there's beena lot of candidates applying for
just one role. So it's been alot harder for candidates to negotiate
(33:09):
what they want. But things areso cyclical it's going to change.
Interest rates are starting toreduce. We've obviously had quite
a lot of elections this year.You know, whether or not you agree
with results, the electionshave happened which will create more
certainty in the markets. AndI think the job market will change
and become a lot more positivefor candidates in 2025. And therefore
(33:31):
employers are going to haveto, to attract and retain that talent.
They're going to have to be alot more flexible and regards to
meeting what candidates wantbecause candidates want flexibility.
It's not just parents, theywant flexibility. Actually when you
speak to candidates it's acandidate wide thing and a lot of
people will have been sat injobs at the moment looking at the
job market and been toonervous to move this year. They may
(33:53):
have been sat in a job thatthey have outgrown for several years
now. Next year they'll move.So there will be a lot more vacancies
and a lot more than you knowand therefore it will, it will shift
and clients will have.Employees will have to be much more
accommodating like I said to,to retain that talent or attract
that talent.
I think we'll always, it willalways change and that's the important
(34:13):
thing to remember.
It's a very cyclical but if wekeep making those moves in the right
direction each cycle theneventually I think it will become
new normal and especiallywe're speaking to like a lot of,
you know, Gen Z, they, theygrew up, you know, they did their
university degrees online witha high degree of flexibility. That
is what they want and expectin the job market.
(34:33):
I'm really interested inshaping the future of work. So just
saying it out loud in casesomeone is listening and has interesting
ideas or is working on aninteresting project because I think
there have been some veryinnovative solutions in the last
few years. You know, the fourday work week, the job shares. I
am sure there are othersolutions bubbling somewhere in society
(34:55):
that if they're scaled up itwill really change work. And I do
think work is going tocontinue to change. Like we can't
assume that in the last 50years there's been absolutely very,
very quick change, especiallyin the last 10 years and now it's
just going to be stable. It isnot. But we have to work together
to create that change. And Ithink you are part of that. You're
part of that very much sobecause you're one of the few organizations
(35:16):
actively saying yeah, you canagree with great people, but guess
what, you also need to make it flexible.
Which is, yeah, I think what'sgoing to be really interesting actually
and I thought there'd be maybemore changes this year and then it
has because it was so hypedlast year is AI and how that is going
to change the workforce aswell. And actually it will reduce,
I mean the promise isobviously I'm not very Techy, I'm
(35:40):
not ChatGPT founder owner, butthe promise isn't it's going to reduce
all of humans workload.Therefore you know, hopefully that
will actually then, you know,also feed into flexible working that
there's going to be such a bigchange. I think in regards to that
and what it actually means for people.
I think a lot of jobs aregoing to be replaced and I think
(36:00):
actually your job is probablynot going to be replaced by an AI,
but you might be replaced bysomeone who, who doesn't, who knows
AI or uses it. And I thinkthat it's very, very important. Even
now there are certain groupswho use AI less than others and one
of them, well groups I'msaying like half the population on
average, women use it less.And I got really annoyed with this
(36:23):
and so I started off my ownpersonal AI learning group essentially
just told someone oh yeah, itwas so much fun, we're still doing
it. So obviously I'm verylucky in that I have lots of people
who, who are interested inlearning. So I got some of our fellows
and mentors together and as anAI learning lab and we all experiment
with AI, we share resourcesbecause first I was looking for a
(36:45):
book on it and of course anybook or any online course is going
to be outdated.
By the time it's uploadedquickly. Yeah.
So we just experiment and Ithink that's the secret. We just
have to experiment, we have tolearn, share with others, not be
too scared, use the AI whichis most applications Nowadays have
AI inbuilt and your companyapplications will have those as well.
So trying to use them. Funnilyenough, we're recording this on Riverside
(37:08):
and apparently Riverside and Ihave not tried it because I'm too
scared, but this is the onething I haven't tried. But Riverside
can actually create voice, asin it now knows my voice. And it
will be say, let's start a newneutral. Okay. We can say really
bad things in my voice.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. That'squite frightening. It's like a deep
fake.
I know, I know. However, Ithink we can manage it, but we need
(37:30):
to learn about it anyway.Sorry, bracket of AI promotion closed.
But I think that is importantfor making sure that we stay competitive
in the job market.
Absolutely, yeah.
Anyways, we were talking aboutyour book. Tell me, what's your the
biggest learning that you'vehad? I know you're an expert in all
things flex, but I'm surethere are things that you've discovered
writing the book thatsurprised you.
(37:52):
Yeah, I think the earlychapters were really interesting
and I tried to incorporatethat. It's about actually knowing
what you want. And I delvedinto that in much more detail than
I did before. And it hasreally changed my thinking because
I think I just speaking to somany people, they're unhappy in their
job, they hate their job, theydon't like their job. And even if
(38:13):
they got a better job doingwhat they're doing now, it still
wouldn't be right because theydidn't. Society has forced them into
a career, maybe parentalexpectations, school and the way
the education system is set upin this country. I think what's real,
and I'm going to do it with mydaughters is actually getting people
to really think about whatthey're good at and what do they
(38:36):
want. And I don't think peopledo that enough. And they don't do
it early enough. And actually,I think it's doing it actually got
children when they're pickingtheir GCSes, when they're picking
the A levels. What is anamazing book that I 100 recommend
people read is called 'knowyour strengths' by Gallups. And it's
fascinating. And it'sbasically the premise is that we
(38:59):
all have like three or fourreally strong strengths that are
unique to us. And thosestrengths are formed by about the
age of three and societyperformance reviews work often focuses
a bit on our weaknesses. Sothey'll say you're really good at
this, but you could be betterat this. And actually the greatest
(39:23):
sort of minds and you know, ifyou think about Einstein or whatever,
I don't know how good he wasat English, for example, but actually,
if you just focus on whatyou're really, really good at, you're
going to be brilliant. So it'sstripping out all that noise, getting
a really strong understandingof what are good at. And often what
(39:43):
we're good at, we will enjoy.Because there's nothing worse than
doing something and feelingyou're not good at it. And therefore
it's just about actuallynarrowing, narrowing, narrowing down
on those strengths. And thenas you get further into your career,
you can keep then delegatingthings that you are not as good at
or you don't enjoy to otherpeople in the team. You run a business,
(40:05):
you outsource that. So it'sjust getting really, really narrow.
It's like they, as an exampleabout Richard Branson, who was interviewed
on the Diary of the CEOpodcast with Stephen Bartlett, and
he gave an example about howhe was dyslexic, he left school at
60 and then he was in a boardmeeting and his accountant was running
through numbers and he musthave had a really puzzled look on
(40:25):
his face because theaccountant pulled him to the side.
He's like, do you understandany of this? And Richard Branson
was like, not really. But whathe's really good at is he's a visionary
and he hires people into thoseroles that he can trust. It's all
about this trust, isn't it,that he can trust completely. He
has basic, basic understandingof finance, but he hasn't had to
really overly develop thatskill set. So it's just about actually
(40:47):
knowing what your strengthsare. And if you become a leader,
then how are you gonna, youknow, hire people to fill those gaps
that you don't have and thenidentifying those strengths in those
individuals and making surethat they are leaning into them as
well. Because then I thinkyou're gonna, you're gonna be brilliant,
you're gonna have a brilliantteam and then a brilliant company.
And one question we always askat the end is about practical five
(41:09):
minute activities that peoplecan do following this podcast. So
picture someone who'slistening to this, who wants to transition
to a more flexible role. Whatwould be one or two five minute things
they could do this week to getthe ball rolling.
I mean, I think the firstthing would be to actually think
about what role it is you wantto do. Regardless of whether it's
flex or not, are you in theright role for you? And if you're
(41:29):
not, how are you going to getThere what, you know, actions can
you take that is going to getyou to that role you want that your
dream role is. And then, youknow, whether that's upskilling,
do an additionalqualification, getting a bit of work
experience, whatever. And thenin terms of flexible roles, you can
obviously get in touch with mebecause we my job board investinginwomen.co.uk,
we have lots of flexible roleson it. You could reach out to old
(41:53):
colleagues, you could go, youknow, create a LinkedIn profile,
reach out to all colleagues,see, you know, they know of anything.
Start building your network,then connecting with and contacting
people within thoseorganizations that you want to work
with on LinkedIn, explainingthat you're, you know, looking for
a new opportunity, seeingthey'd be open to meeting for a coffee.
I think that's often a trick.And then actually also you know,
(42:16):
telling people maybe at theschool gate or that if you're a parent
or, you know, if you're in arunning club, wherever you go out,
you know, outside of work, bequite open that you're looking for
a new role because a lot ofroles aren't ever advertised as well.
So it's, I think all aboutbuilding your connections and building
those relationships, attendingnetworking meetings and often roles
(42:37):
and opportunities can come outas well like that.
Well said. And where canpeople find out about you about the
book, about your work?
Yeah, so our website isinvestinginwomen.co.uk please connect
with me on LinkedIn. I'mElizabeth Willits on LinkedIn and
my book Flex is out in January.
Wonderful, great to chatagain. Lizbeth, thank you so much
(42:58):
for your time.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just callto Verena Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
(43:18):
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. I really
(43:40):
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast, our fellowship
program and, and if you wantto do the same, then please head
over toleadersplus.org/Fellowship in order
to get access to a communityof support to help you combine ambitious
career with young childrentogether with people who have your
back. See you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children. For much too
long, amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often malemiddle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast, I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, shared parental
leave, securing a promotion,dealing with workload challenges,
or managing as a dual careercouple. We also have an award winning
fellowship community which isglobal for working parents who have
big dreams for their careersbut don't want to sacrifice their
family. You'll join anabsolutely wonderful group of people,
(01:28):
a very tight knit, supportivegroup of parents who have your back.
Together, you'll explore whatyour career aspirations are and you'll
get advice from senior leaderswho are also working parents about
how to achieve thoseaspirations. You'll get new ideas
to combine your hopes for yourcareers with your hope for your family,
and yo are supported bypeople who are experiencing what
(01:48):
you're experiencing yourself.I'm really delighted that a larger
majority of our fellows havemade tangible changes following the
program, be that becoming moresenior in their roles, working shorter
hours, having better flexibleworking arrangement. They always
impress me so much with thecourage that they iinstilnstillineachotherto
dowhatisright for them withoutapologizing for having family or
(02:13):
apologizing for wanting thatTop job. Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
This week I have been chattingto Elizabeth Willett who shared with
me about how to bypass AI whenyou're going for job applications,
how to negotiate in detailwhen you made a job offer and especially
(02:38):
when you applied for a fulltime role but actually want that
role part time. We had areally good chat and I hope you enjoyed
the conversation. There's alot of practical stuff supporting
the job application processfor flexible roles. Enjoy the conversation.
So I run a company calledInvesting in Women, which is a recruitment
company that helps people findflexible part time and home based
(03:00):
jobs and those brilliantforward thinking employers across
the UK that want to hire them.We also offer career coaching services
to candidates that wantadditional help with CVS, LinkedIn,
interview coaching and I'vegot a book that I know we're going
to be talking about coming outin January called Flex. And who is
(03:21):
in my family, I've got ahusband called Henry and two little
girls, Emily and Annabelle,and a Labrador doodle called Dougal
because I can't forget him.
And we've chatted about thisbefore, but I was wondering if there
are any new things, especiallynow having written a book that you've
changed your mind on that youused to believe about combining a
big career with young childrenthat you don't subscribe to anymore.
(03:44):
I think I used to actuallythink it was quite hard to do it.
And now writing this book,I've actually realized anything is
possible. And actually you canfind pockets of time to do things.
So with the book, everyone waslike, how did you do it? How did
you find the time? And thetrick for me with the book was to
just break it down into reallysmall, manageable chunks of time.
(04:06):
So I wrote every day for 30minutes. I'd often do it after the
kids went to bed. Yes, I wastired, I didn't want to do it, but
I just wrote and set a timeron the Alexa, listen to the radio
and you know, in the end Iwrote a book in 30 minute chunks.
It took me less than sixmonths to do it. So actually I think
(04:28):
it's just about being reallyintentional with your time. You know,
don't waste time scrollingthrough Instagram or, you know, the
Daily Mail or whatever you do.It's actually thinking, I've got
this pocket of time, I'm gonnafill it. You know, you can all set
a deadline like I did that 30minutes, which really then focuses
you. You do so much withinshort periods of time. So I think,
you know, anything is possibleif you're just quite intentional
(04:50):
about your time.
Interesting. And did you sitdown one day and just decided, I
am going to write a book andthis is the title. Or did you just
start writing and see whatcame of it?
No, I never had anyaspirations to write a book. It was
definitely not on my bucketlist at all. But I was by chance
on someone else's podcast andit came out about this time last
(05:13):
year, we're recording now,aren't we? In November. And by chance
an editor at Wiley which is apublisher. They publish the books.
The Dummy's Guide to listenedto that episode and reached out to
me and asked if I'd considerwriting a book. At first of all,
it went even into my junkfolder and then I fished it out and
I sat on it for a few daysthinking this isn't like, this must
(05:34):
be like a joke. And eventuallygot back to them and no, it was true.
And they were like, be reallyinterested in you writing a book.
And it's like a career sort ofplaybook strategy. Playbook about
really, you know, what to do,how to get a job no matter what life
throws at you. So I had towrite a pitch. Never done that before.
Write the pitch. And they sentme some examples and then it got
approved. So that was it. Andthen I was even at that point I was
(05:57):
like, do I have the time thatyou know, running a business, do
I actually have the time? Andthen I listened to another podcast
which was how to write a bookfast when you have no time. That
said, about breaking it downinto 30 minutes a day. And I spoke
to my business coach at thetime and she said, you can't turn
down this opportunity. And I'mso pleased I did it. I mean, obviously
it's not been released yet. Wedon't know how it's going to receive.
(06:17):
But I'm just, just to see myname on something tangible is lovely
because working in a digitalbusiness where I'm speaking to people
on Zoom, it's so nice toactually have something now to hold.
So.
Oh, do you have an actualphysical copy yet?
I haven't got it yet, but I'veseen all the covers and I can't wait
to get it. Yeah, once I getit, I'll be holding it up. I'll probably
(06:37):
not stop touching it.
Exciting. Exciting. And whatdo you think flexibility is?
Flexible working? I think itmeans, I mean there's obviously lots
of different flexible workingpatterns. I think it means anything
that's not the standard 9 to5, Monday to Friday in an office
or in a workplace. So it couldbe hybrid working that works for
(07:00):
lots of people. It could befull time, but fully remote. Obviously
part time, job sharing. Thoseare just sort of some of the things.
Compressed hours, nine dayfortnights. I think anything that's
just slightly deviates fromthat. Strict, rigid. You have to
be in by such and such a timeon a Monday morning. You can't leave
until after such and such atime in the evening, even if you're
(07:23):
just sat there wasting timebecause you're just clock watching,
waiting for the clock to reach 5:30.
Absolutely. So I guessflexibility is relatively acceptable
for some role, especially backoffice roles. But the roles with
real power and what I mean issenior roles that don't just have
director in the job title butalso have real power to make decisions
(07:47):
about people, about howresource money is spent, there it's
actually, it's harder, it's alot harder to get flexibility. What
have you learned about gettingto roles with power with a flexible
working arrangement? Becauseclearly it can be done. I mean you
and I, we both obviously wehave an agenda here, let's be honest.
But yeah, how do you get those roles?
(08:08):
I think it obviously dependson the organization and the culture.
I mean my husband, I meanspeaking about him, he's like really
senior and runs an oil tradingcompany and it's just embedding that
from the top. I thinkobviously having me as a wife probably
like banged on at him. Butthey have, you know, considering
it's like financial servicestrading, they're all hybrid working,
(08:30):
they're really flexible interms of people can come in, you
know, whatever times it worksfor them. It's about trust, isn't
it really? It's actually abouttrust. It's about judging people
on outputs rather thanpresenteeism. So if you're in a sales
role and actually if you'remaking sales, I would personally
(08:50):
be really relaxed about youmaking those sales in a way that
worked for you and whetherthat was in an office or not, you
know, if you were thenspeaking to somebody in an evening,
a client close sale, then Iwould not necessarily expect you
to be in then really early thenext morning just for presenteeism
sake. I think it's about thattrust, isn't it? Probably also about
(09:12):
maybe being a bit more carefulwith hires, that process as well.
Because you want to make surethat if you're an employer, you're
hiring those people then thatyou can trust. But I think it's just
all about creating that adultenvironment. I understand that FaceTime
is important for a lot ofroles, but it doesn't have to be,
I think 40 hours worth ofFaceTime necessarily Monday to Friday
(09:36):
and it's just about actuallyhiring the right people then that
you know are going to work well.
I agree. I think there issomething about that productivity
bit because that is the cruxand that's quite easy. It's quite
easy to show that you're asproductive in a sales role as someone
who is, you know, you'rebringing 80% of the clients, but
(09:57):
obviously there are roles thatare. Their job is to create thought
leadership for theorganization or their job is to create
a new impact reportingstrategy for the charity. And that's
where it's really hard tomeasure that productivity. Have you
learned anything while writingyour book about how to show that
(10:18):
your delivering a great dealwhen it's in that fluffy environment?
I do know what you meanbecause I've got people as well that
work for me. They're notnecessarily making sales and it's
actually, it's things thatmake will feed into sales at some
point. But I do get that, youknow, back office roles are a little
bit harder to measure. I thinkwhen you're writing, you know, a
(10:38):
CV or trying to demonstratethat the recruiters are interested
whatever role you've had onthat impact that you've made. And
that impact could be onobviously sales, whether you have
directly got those sales oryou have created collateral that
fed into that sales. So it'dbe something like I've created a
(10:58):
thought leadership report thateventually was used to bring on these
X number of clients or retainthese number of clients or it was
used to upsell for thesenumber of clients or if you have
saved money, so maybe you'veworked in procurement or you create
a new process that reduced thetime it took to complete a task and
therefore that would havesaved money. So it's something like
(11:20):
that. Anything you candemonstrate. And numbers are always
so universal.
I think that is true. Numbersare helpful and I appreciate, you
know, you're coming fromrecruitment so you will have a really
good numbers brain. But I knowthere are people who are listening
who are working for the civilservice or in a charity where actually
you do have accountability ontop of those numbers. And I think
(11:43):
the really important thingthere is just to make sure that you
are very clear with yourmanager and you both agree on what
is the value add of this role,what is the main purpose and how
do you then quantify that? Sois it writing one report a year that
is being picked up by onemajor newspaper, you can still I
think translate that intomeasures of success?
(12:04):
Absolutely. I think that isit, isn't it? It's like writing the
report and then what I alwayssay to my CV clients is so what?
Okay, but then you got thatreport, it got picked up by a major
publication which increasedbrand awareness or XYZ definitely
is really helpful to do that.I think that so what as you're writing
(12:25):
your CV but also then asyou're speaking to your hiring manager.
Because actually, as you'reachieving things, even if you're
not looking for a role,definitely keep documenting that
because it really helps thenbecause you'll forget people, you
know, their life's busy. Then,you know, if you come to look for
a role in a year, so it's timeyou can see all the amazing things
you did. And it also helpswith performance reviews as well.
(12:47):
You can come back to yourmanager and say, look, I did this,
that the other.
Absolutely. So I want to throwa challenge at you. You are a CV
expert and you talk in yourbook about how to get a good cv.
There is AI in the picture nowthat filters out CVs automatically.
You might have a career breakin your CV. And I know there are
different AI systems, somebetter than others, and hopefully
(13:09):
some of them are moreinclusive than others, but you could
be faced with a bad AI system.What is your advice to make sure
your CV is standing out andgets through that AI screening?
I think it's mostly important.The most thing is important is to
demonstrate your relevance andthat's whether it's being viewed
(13:30):
by AI or a person. Because Iget lot of CVs and a lot of them,
it feels like somebody hasjust sat and applied to every single
role that they've seen overthe weekend or whatever that maybe
they're not suited for at all.So it's actually if you were as well
wanting to make a slightcareer change, it's then pulling
(13:51):
out all that most relevantexperience and making sure that's
the top of your cv. So forexample, if you are wanting to apply,
we'll just use an example. Fora pure HR role and you've previously
done had more recruiter roles,you would be needing to actually
pull out the HR experiencethat you've had and highlighting
(14:12):
that, putting that as the topbullet points rather than the recruiter
experience, for example. Soit's actually thinking about what
is important to the end hiringmanager, why are they recruiting
for this role, what do theyactually need and what skills and
experience I have that willmatch that and can help them fulfill,
(14:34):
you know, the responsibilitiesin this role. And then it's just
me demonstrating that in yourcv. I know we've spoken a little
bit just now about impact.Anything you can show in your CV
that's quite unique to you andis very impact driven. I always think
try and use the STARtechnique, maybe include a key achievement.
So be specific about any taskyou have done in the past, what you
(14:57):
achieved and the results willalways help you stand out and against
the other candidates. But thatis something I think that helps.
I mean, obviously you cantailor your CV to each job description.
Make sure you're using anykeywords that are in that job advert
because if it is an AI system,it's probably been pre-programmed
(15:19):
to pulling out those keywords.So make sure you're using the actual
words and phrases that areused in the job ad because that will
help your CV pull through.
I think there's somethingreally practical about having a separate
skill section which TracyGeorge told me about, just as a really
helpful way to make sure thatyou can put the words down to filter
(15:41):
out. What are your thoughtsaround listing career breaks?
I personally don't thinkthey're needed because I just don't
think they add anything to acv. I think A i depends how you
feel about it because somepeople don't want to draw attention
to it. So if you don't want todraw attention to it, why put it
in there? Because if arecruiter has like 50 CVs that they've
(16:02):
come into for a role thatmorning, they're just going to be
scrolling quickly through thatcv, each CV and they might not even
see a career break, butthey're going to see it if you spell
it out. You know, even ifyou're fine with your career break,
I just don't think it addsanything to a CV at all. I think
as a recruiter we want to see,you know, what your skills and experience
(16:23):
are and if you can do the rolethat we're recruiting for, that is
the most important to me.Career breaks don't matter. I'd much
rather see your experience andwhat you've done. And so it's just
taking up space. That's myopinion. If I can see you've had
a career break, I would maybeask you that about that on the phone.
But yeah, I don't think youneed to waste the space, Addie, like
(16:45):
between jobs that you are on acareer break.
And I guess a lot of thepeople listening to this are working
parents and they will see afull time job and want to apply for
it to get a flex solution.Would you advise to put that in the
Cover letter or would you sayactually raise it much later?
I'd personally raise it a bitlater because sometimes they may
(17:07):
have had, you know, spoke tothe hiring manager, the hiring manager
said it's full time onlyespecially it's like a recruiter
that's recruiting it andtherefore if you put that in the
Cover letter, they mayinstantly Reject you, and I don't
want that to happen to you.And actually, a lot of roles are
much more flexible thanspecified on an advert. So I would
apply. And actually,personally, I spoke to a recruiter
(17:30):
about this Yesterday, a bigFTSE 100, and her advice was to actually
get a job offer and thennegotiate for flexible working, because
then you know that they wantyou and you can negotiate at that
point. Personally, I would sayI probably do it after the first
interview when you've gone in,you've demonstrated that you're a
really good candidate, thatyou are relevant for the role, you
can add a lot of value in theposition and at that point, once
(17:52):
you've done that, then they'llbe, you know, if they really like
you, they're going to want totry and accommodate you. Her advice
was to job offer, I thinkeither or, but I probably wouldn't
do it, you know, before you'veactually had a chance to demonstrate
that you're a brilliantcandidate for the role. But I would
say definitely apply becausemost roles are much more flexible
than is specified in an ad.
Definitely. And, you know, youalways think when you see a role,
(18:15):
oh, I can't fulfill theseroles. But you never see the headache
of the person recruiting whois desperate to get the right person
on, who really would give aleg and an arm to have that position
filled by someone where theydon't have to worry about it later.
Exactly, Yeah. And I think itworks other ways as well because
I like you, I've beenrecruiting for my team, so I recently
recruited a marketing managerand I thought I needed less hours
(18:39):
than I did. And then I met anAmazing candidate and she wanted
more hours and actually Ithought, you know what, I can make
it work, I'll offer her whatshe wants. Because I wanted to hire
her, I wanted her to stay. Soit sort of works both ways. So I
thought, you know, maybe ifshe'd come up, that would been the
first thing on her coverletter example, I might have thought,
(19:00):
oh, no, I can't do that. So Ithink it works both ways. But yeah,
definitely, you know, if, likeyou said, a recruiter or a hiring
manager could have beenrecruiting for this role for months,
and if you are perfect,they're going to want to try and
accommodate you.
Definitely. And I think italso depends where you're applying
to to decide when you're goingto raise it. So I quite often get
people asking, can we do thisjob as a job share or not and see
(19:24):
this plus. So I'm always opento that and hopefully people would
know that we're always open tothat and it won't be difficult. But
if you perhaps apply to a moretraditional organization, maybe it
is better to wait for longer.I mean, I don't think there's a recipe
of how to do it right. But youdefinitely. I think the most important
recipe is to apply, isn't it?
Absolutely, apply.
(19:45):
Don't think in your head youcan't do that role part time.
Yeah, apply. And I think somuch more organizations are open
to it than they ever wouldhave been.
(24:02):
Yeah, absolutely. Interesting.And just. Sorry, I'm getting onto
this topic of cvs, but I'vejust recruited, so I'm really. It's
on my head. Any really commonmistakes that you see people make.
Yeah, I actually thinkthere's. Yeah, I don't feel you need
a photo on your cv. That'ssomething I see a lot and I think
(24:22):
really just. Yeah. Why? Idon't think why. He's taking up space
and you know, I'm not biased,but somebody might view it and be
biased. You never quite knowyou can open yourself up to that.
And I think actually sometimesI think people are so fixated on
getting their CV down to twopages and I don't recommend having
like reels of pages, but Ithink you can always go down, go,
(24:46):
I don't know who made thisthing. Oh, it's only two pages. So
I think you can go depending,you know, if you've had a long career.
You know, I spoke to somebodyyesterday who's been working for
like 30 years and she'd got itall down to two pages still. And
I think you can probably go totwo and a half because then you're
missing the detail of actuallywhat you did and what you can bring
to the role. It was really,really high level. So I think if
(25:08):
you need to go over two pages,don't fret. I wouldn't do more than
two and a half. I would rathersee that you have included some of
that detail and that impactand that value than it just being
really, really high level thatI can't really see what you did.
And you also offer some advicein the book about negotiating once
(25:29):
you do have that offer. And Ithink that's really important because
there's evidence and it's notwomen's fault. But I know that quite
a lot of women listening, alsomen. But there for women, there's
evidence that they negotiateless because we've been conditioned
that we shouldn't be askingfor that. So if you're listening
to this just to say this isnot a criticism of you but it's more
of a, you know, systemicsocietal thing. So you've supported
(25:53):
people to negotiate. What aresome of the phrases that have worked
really well? If someone comesback and offers you a job at let's
say 50,000 to pick out anumber from a hat, how do you say.
Well actually no, I want morein a way.
I'd be specific about what youwanted. So I'd be like I want 55
for example because I believe,you know, this role on the open market
(26:15):
is paying 55,000. I can dothis, that the other, you know, my
skills and experience Ibelieve are worth whatever, you know,
whatever it is. Maybe youknow, what did you do for a previous
employer that you can thendemonstrate? I suppose if it's something
like sales, it's quite easybecause I, no, I can bring in X number
of money into yourorganization or if you've done something
(26:37):
more back office, I know I canrevamp all your systems which is
going to save you X number ofhours or money, et cetera. So trying
when you're doing your cv youactually is this impact thing is
then once you come to thenegotiation you've got all that as
sort of evidence of what youcan do. Yeah. And definitely come
(26:58):
back with an actual figurerather than a range because they'll
always go at the lower end ofthe range and it just makes you seem
much more confident. So yeah,it's just demonstrating about what
the open market's paying, whatyou believe the role is worth, what
your experience is worth andwhat you can bring to them at that
level. If they can't budge onthat because maybe that is their
budget, you could ask forthings like a sign-on bonus or you
(27:22):
could talk about, you know, aguaranteed bonus if you hit X targets
etc because obviously there'snot an annual cost to that. So they
may be more willing to offerthat, that but that might be something
on in your back pocket thatyou might be willing to take instead.
Interesting. How common arethings like sign-on bonuses? It sounds
to me like something out ofthe tech entrepreneur type world,
(27:45):
but I might be wrong.
Yeah, no, I mean we used tooffer them a lot at Deloitte. They're
quite common depending upon- Imean it will be really common in
financial services dependingupon the industry you're in. If you
are walking away from a bonusat a current employer then you need
to let the new employer knowthat you are walking away from a
(28:06):
bonu and how much that bonusis worth and therefore really they
need to be paying that bonusfor you to move. Try and as much
leverage as you can. Also, ifyou've got other offers on the table,
I would be telling therecruiter that, you'd be, I'll be
telling the recruiter how muchthose other offers are paying. Nothing
like creating a bit of senseof competition over you.
(28:28):
It feels very cutthroat. Iguess that's. I do know recruitment
is quite an intensive.
Yeah. But it obviously helpsyou. If you know you're due a bonus
in April and it's pro rata andyou would be getting such and such
in April, then you should beasking your next employer to compensate
you for that loss of bonus.
Absolutely. No, I completelyagree And I think if ever you're
(28:50):
unsure, just look up theaverage gender pay gap and for organizations
with more than 250 employeesyou should find that easily. And
if you're a bit worried aboutasking, I think then you just take
your salary. Look at what theother, you know.
Yeah, they may say no but Ithink people get so frightened because
they're worried they're goingto lose their job offer. I have never
ever, ever seen that. I'll bevery. That's, I think why people
(29:13):
are so frightened because theyworried they're going to just lose
it. I've never seen thathappen. They may say no, but you're
then in no worse position thanyou are now just by asking. And often
you've not even, It's oftenthrough sort of a third party, whether
it's the recruitmentconsultant or an in house recruiter
that is doing that negotiationanyway. So it won't necessarily sour
the relationship with yourultimate boss.
(29:34):
And what's your adviceregarding applying for new flexible
job during maternity leave?
Yeah, absolutely, go for it.If you don't want like your current
job, if you don't want to goback to your current job and there's
nothing to stop you fromapplying elsewhere. So I would, yeah,
it's a good opportunity. Oftenpeople reassess, don't they, what
they're looking for. Theirpriorities may shift. They may, you
(29:56):
know, they may realize thatthe role that they were in wasn't
for them for whatever reason.They may be worried that they're
going to go back and beside-lined because of the culture.
So it's a really goodopportunity. You know, while you
maybe have, I say have time,you probably don't have time being
on maternity. I know what it'slike but you know if you've got a
bit of time then you can applyfor roles.
(30:17):
Definitely. I think it's alsookay to negotiate for a, you know,
to say towards the end of theoffer that you're coming back from
maternity leave and forexample, if you need a phased start
or something like that tonegotiate for that.
Yeah.
And it can be a really goodthing because you might have been
a workaholic who worked alllong hours and then all your colleague
will still remember you asthat. But if you apply for a new
(30:39):
job it can be a way to resetthe expectations with people who
never worked with you before, so.
Abolutely,AbsolutelyAndactuallyalso oftenpeoplethinkit'seasiertogo
back to their currentemployer. My experience, and this
is obviously personal, itwasn't that easy because everyone
had changed anyway. So I wasworking in a new team or in a new
office so it felt like a newjob anyway. So I wouldn't necessarily
(31:00):
let that hold you back fromapplying because you think it's going
to be more comfortable goingback to where you currently are.
If you didn't like it,definitely look elsewhere.
Excellent advice. I'minterested in your vision for flexible
work and what you think isnext because we're still talking
about flexible work. I see itis a thing. I'm really hoping that
(31:21):
in 10 years time it's not athing anymore. What are your emerging
ideas for the type of modelsthat we need in our society to make
it possible for parents tohave senior roles and see their children?
It's so difficult, isn't it?Because you know what I think it's,
I think generally the pandemicpost pandemic has been fairly positive
(31:42):
for a lot of working parents,particularly women because I've worked
on roles, big senior rolesthat have been hybrid that people
have been able to considerthat they may not have been able
to consider before.Particularly when they're hybrid
I find when they're two daysin an office rather than three and
then you know, it's thatbalance and people can really make
(32:03):
that work, and particularly ifit's a really nice employment employer
where they're quite flexibleabout doing school runs etc. So I
would love to see more of thatbecause that definitely enables people,
you know, really if tomaintain a career and maintain that
salary. They don't have totake a cut for a pay for a part time
role, they're not taking anycut on pensions etc and I would love
(32:24):
that to be the new full timenormal. Obviously we do. There has
been a lot of rumbles, haven'tthat in the News about return to
the office like Boots did thebig thing last year, everyone was
returning five days a week andother organizations are checking
slight swipe passes to seeactually how often people are in
the office which is aboutpresenteeism. But we've had quite
(32:45):
a difficult year inrecruitment. It's not been yeah generally
as an industry it's as a lotof people listening to this will
probably know that it's notbeen candidate friendly market this
year there's been a lot ofredundancies particularly in the
tech industry. So there's beena lot of candidates applying for
just one role. So it's been alot harder for candidates to negotiate
(33:09):
what they want. But things areso cyclical it's going to change.
Interest rates are starting toreduce. We've obviously had quite
a lot of elections this year.You know, whether or not you agree
with results, the electionshave happened which will create more
certainty in the markets. AndI think the job market will change
and become a lot more positivefor candidates in 2025. And therefore
(33:31):
employers are going to haveto, to attract and retain that talent.
They're going to have to be alot more flexible and regards to
meeting what candidates wantbecause candidates want flexibility.
It's not just parents, theywant flexibility. Actually when you
speak to candidates it's acandidate wide thing and a lot of
people will have been sat injobs at the moment looking at the
job market and been toonervous to move this year. They may
(33:53):
have been sat in a job thatthey have outgrown for several years
now. Next year they'll move.So there will be a lot more vacancies
and a lot more than you knowand therefore it will, it will shift
and clients will have.Employees will have to be much more
accommodating like I said to,to retain that talent or attract
that talent.
I think we'll always, it willalways change and that's the important
(34:13):
thing to remember.
It's a very cyclical but if wekeep making those moves in the right
direction each cycle theneventually I think it will become
new normal and especiallywe're speaking to like a lot of,
you know, Gen Z, they, theygrew up, you know, they did their
university degrees online witha high degree of flexibility. That
is what they want and expectin the job market.
(34:33):
I'm really interested inshaping the future of work. So just
saying it out loud in casesomeone is listening and has interesting
ideas or is working on aninteresting project because I think
there have been some veryinnovative solutions in the last
few years. You know, the fourday work week, the job shares. I
am sure there are othersolutions bubbling somewhere in society
(34:55):
that if they're scaled up itwill really change work. And I do
think work is going tocontinue to change. Like we can't
assume that in the last 50years there's been absolutely very,
very quick change, especiallyin the last 10 years and now it's
just going to be stable. It isnot. But we have to work together
to create that change. And Ithink you are part of that. You're
part of that very much sobecause you're one of the few organizations
(35:16):
actively saying yeah, you canagree with great people, but guess
what, you also need to make it flexible.
Which is, yeah, I think what'sgoing to be really interesting actually
and I thought there'd be maybemore changes this year and then it
has because it was so hypedlast year is AI and how that is going
to change the workforce aswell. And actually it will reduce,
I mean the promise isobviously I'm not very Techy, I'm
(35:40):
not ChatGPT founder owner, butthe promise isn't it's going to reduce
all of humans workload.Therefore you know, hopefully that
will actually then, you know,also feed into flexible working that
there's going to be such a bigchange. I think in regards to that
and what it actually means for people.
I think a lot of jobs aregoing to be replaced and I think
(36:00):
actually your job is probablynot going to be replaced by an AI,
but you might be replaced bysomeone who, who doesn't, who knows
AI or uses it. And I thinkthat it's very, very important. Even
now there are certain groupswho use AI less than others and one
of them, well groups I'msaying like half the population on
average, women use it less.And I got really annoyed with this
(36:23):
and so I started off my ownpersonal AI learning group essentially
just told someone oh yeah, itwas so much fun, we're still doing
it. So obviously I'm verylucky in that I have lots of people
who, who are interested inlearning. So I got some of our fellows
and mentors together and as anAI learning lab and we all experiment
with AI, we share resourcesbecause first I was looking for a
(36:45):
book on it and of course anybook or any online course is going
to be outdated.
By the time it's uploadedquickly. Yeah.
So we just experiment and Ithink that's the secret. We just
have to experiment, we have tolearn, share with others, not be
too scared, use the AI whichis most applications Nowadays have
AI inbuilt and your companyapplications will have those as well.
So trying to use them. Funnilyenough, we're recording this on Riverside
(37:08):
and apparently Riverside and Ihave not tried it because I'm too
scared, but this is the onething I haven't tried. But Riverside
can actually create voice, asin it now knows my voice. And it
will be say, let's start a newneutral. Okay. We can say really
bad things in my voice.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. That'squite frightening. It's like a deep
fake.
I know, I know. However, Ithink we can manage it, but we need
(37:30):
to learn about it anyway.Sorry, bracket of AI promotion closed.
But I think that is importantfor making sure that we stay competitive
in the job market.
Absolutely, yeah.
Anyways, we were talking aboutyour book. Tell me, what's your the
biggest learning that you'vehad? I know you're an expert in all
things flex, but I'm surethere are things that you've discovered
writing the book thatsurprised you.
(37:52):
Yeah, I think the earlychapters were really interesting
and I tried to incorporatethat. It's about actually knowing
what you want. And I delvedinto that in much more detail than
I did before. And it hasreally changed my thinking because
I think I just speaking to somany people, they're unhappy in their
job, they hate their job, theydon't like their job. And even if
(38:13):
they got a better job doingwhat they're doing now, it still
wouldn't be right because theydidn't. Society has forced them into
a career, maybe parentalexpectations, school and the way
the education system is set upin this country. I think what's real,
and I'm going to do it with mydaughters is actually getting people
to really think about whatthey're good at and what do they
(38:36):
want. And I don't think peopledo that enough. And they don't do
it early enough. And actually,I think it's doing it actually got
children when they're pickingtheir GCSes, when they're picking
the A levels. What is anamazing book that I 100 recommend
people read is called 'knowyour strengths' by Gallups. And it's
fascinating. And it'sbasically the premise is that we
(38:59):
all have like three or fourreally strong strengths that are
unique to us. And thosestrengths are formed by about the
age of three and societyperformance reviews work often focuses
a bit on our weaknesses. Sothey'll say you're really good at
this, but you could be betterat this. And actually the greatest
(39:23):
sort of minds and you know, ifyou think about Einstein or whatever,
I don't know how good he wasat English, for example, but actually,
if you just focus on whatyou're really, really good at, you're
going to be brilliant. So it'sstripping out all that noise, getting
a really strong understandingof what are good at. And often what
(39:43):
we're good at, we will enjoy.Because there's nothing worse than
doing something and feelingyou're not good at it. And therefore
it's just about actuallynarrowing, narrowing, narrowing down
on those strengths. And thenas you get further into your career,
you can keep then delegatingthings that you are not as good at
or you don't enjoy to otherpeople in the team. You run a business,
(40:05):
you outsource that. So it'sjust getting really, really narrow.
It's like they, as an exampleabout Richard Branson, who was interviewed
on the Diary of the CEOpodcast with Stephen Bartlett, and
he gave an example about howhe was dyslexic, he left school at
60 and then he was in a boardmeeting and his accountant was running
through numbers and he musthave had a really puzzled look on
(40:25):
his face because theaccountant pulled him to the side.
He's like, do you understandany of this? And Richard Branson
was like, not really. But whathe's really good at is he's a visionary
and he hires people into thoseroles that he can trust. It's all
about this trust, isn't it,that he can trust completely. He
has basic, basic understandingof finance, but he hasn't had to
really overly develop thatskill set. So it's just about actually
(40:47):
knowing what your strengthsare. And if you become a leader,
then how are you gonna, youknow, hire people to fill those gaps
that you don't have and thenidentifying those strengths in those
individuals and making surethat they are leaning into them as
well. Because then I thinkyou're gonna, you're gonna be brilliant,
you're gonna have a brilliantteam and then a brilliant company.
And one question we always askat the end is about practical five
(41:09):
minute activities that peoplecan do following this podcast. So
picture someone who'slistening to this, who wants to transition
to a more flexible role. Whatwould be one or two five minute things
they could do this week to getthe ball rolling.
I mean, I think the firstthing would be to actually think
about what role it is you wantto do. Regardless of whether it's
flex or not, are you in theright role for you? And if you're
(41:29):
not, how are you going to getThere what, you know, actions can
you take that is going to getyou to that role you want that your
dream role is. And then, youknow, whether that's upskilling,
do an additionalqualification, getting a bit of work
experience, whatever. And thenin terms of flexible roles, you can
obviously get in touch with mebecause we my job board investinginwomen.co.uk,
we have lots of flexible roleson it. You could reach out to old
(41:53):
colleagues, you could go, youknow, create a LinkedIn profile,
reach out to all colleagues,see, you know, they know of anything.
Start building your network,then connecting with and contacting
people within thoseorganizations that you want to work
with on LinkedIn, explainingthat you're, you know, looking for
a new opportunity, seeingthey'd be open to meeting for a coffee.
I think that's often a trick.And then actually also you know,
(42:16):
telling people maybe at theschool gate or that if you're a parent
or, you know, if you're in arunning club, wherever you go out,
you know, outside of work, bequite open that you're looking for
a new role because a lot ofroles aren't ever advertised as well.
So it's, I think all aboutbuilding your connections and building
those relationships, attendingnetworking meetings and often roles
(42:37):
and opportunities can come outas well like that.
Well said. And where canpeople find out about you about the
book, about your work?
Yeah, so our website isinvestinginwomen.co.uk please connect
with me on LinkedIn. I'mElizabeth Willits on LinkedIn and
my book Flex is out in January.
Wonderful, great to chatagain. Lizbeth, thank you so much
(42:58):
for your time.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just callto Verena Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
(43:18):
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. I really
(43:40):
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast, our fellowship
program and, and if you wantto do the same, then please head
over toleadersplus.org/Fellowship in order
to get access to a communityof support to help you combine ambitious
career with young childrentogether with people who have your
back. See you next week.
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